The Career Trap That Makes Women Miserable - Suzanne Venker

Suzanne Venker is a relationship expert and author. Why are so many women choosing career over family? Women have more opportunities than ever before, yet many still feel something is missing. Can a career provide the same meaning as raising children? Or is the idea that women must choose between ambition and family a false choice? Expect to learn why women are choosing their career over motherhood, why young women were lied to for the past 30 years, how cultural messaging has shifted towards young women in recent years, why traditional values are making a big comeback, what actually creates lasting happiness, and much more... - Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period from Shopify at https://shopify.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get up to $350 off the Eight Sleep Pod 5 at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom - 0:00 Have a Generation of Women Been Misled? 9:03 The Choices That Shape a Woman’s Future 15:30 The Most Common Regret Suzanne Encounters 19:12 Should Women Be Expected to Be Providers? 25:34 Is Part-Time Motherhood Enough? 33:41 How Cultural Pressure to Produce the Same As Men Is Hurting Women 36:41 The Truth About Breadwinning Mothers 40:23 Why Motherhood Deserves More Respect 48:12 Are Traditional Women Being Penalised? 50:12 Is Marriage the Biggest Predictor of Happiness? 53:36 The Key to Dating With Purpose 58:21 Is Living Together Before Marriage a Mistake? 01:08:46 Why Alignment Matters So Much 01:11:22 Does the Girlboss Mindset Work at Home? 01:19:41 Is Having Children Really Too Expensive? 01:30:56 Has Staying Home Become Undervalued? 01:33:38 Why Housework Causes So Much Conflict 01:38:43 Should Daycare Be a Last Resort? 01:46:22 The Alternative to Daycare More Parents Are Choosing 01:50:32 How to Stop Passing Trauma to Your Children 01:55:44 What Every Young Woman Needs to Hear 01:56:47 Where to Find Suzanne - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  You dedicated your book with an apology to a generation of women who've been misled.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  I did.

• 0:06Chris Williamson?

  How have they been misled?

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was essentially apologizing for the oversight that I believe both my generation, which is Gen X, by the way, I was born in 68, and the generation one up from me, which is the boomers, which I think is more really what I'm talking about, but definitely some Gen X.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  The oversight that they did not share with their children, their daughters in particular, because I really write mostly for young women.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  How to go about building a life that essentially includes marriage and motherhood, that the messaging has been for decades now. You can do anything you want to do without any caveats there, with no explanation or nuance. You need to sort of prove yourself in the world in the way men do because equality is the goal. Men and women are the same, this, this kind of messaging. And then taught them pretty much to put career at the center of their lives. And what they didn't do was talk about how marriage and motherhood was going to fit into their lives and into that equation if they're just singularly focused on education and career.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  So what ends up happening is that they get somewhere around 30, the age of 30. And it is well known that women start to think very differently about their future because they want to start having a family and they hear that clock ticking. And their priorities are shifting. And they feel stuck. They feel like all these decisions that they've made up to this point were made with a different plan in mind because nobody wanted to talk about the fact that men and women are different, and so it's okay to construct a different kind of life.

• 2:11Chris Williamson?

  Why do you think it's unpopular to warn women of that?

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Because the goal is a political one. It is about men and women being equal, which doesn't mean equal in value, the way I define it. But sameness, basically, interchangeability, that, you know, what one can do, the other can do, which, by the way, is often true. But it doesn't take human desire into account. So male and female desire is very, very different. And we don't talk about that because that would highlight how men and women are different. And the goal is for men and women to be the same and to have these trajectories that are the same so that everything can be equal in 50/50 in this sort of utopian version of what life should look like for men and women. And it's just not working. It's been several decades now with this messaging.

• 3:02Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I had this idea a little while ago, the bigotry of male expectations. So there's an idea called the bigotry of small expectations or of low expectations, which kind of explains some of the white savior complex that college educated white people have around minorities, that we will give you a helping hand. Allow us, poor people from a minority background, we will help you along. And there's kind of a similar situation, I think, that's happening with the way that women are being spoken to specifically by other women, which is you are only as valuable as you are able to play the role that typically men have done. And, you know, that in some ways sounds very liberating. So you go, wow, this is independence.

• 3:46Chris Williamson?

  It's pushing women to be able to do what they want to do without the constraints that would have held them back previously. And I think that that's true. But what it forgets is that implicitly that denigrates what women have typically done. It makes them second class citizens for doing the things that they used to do. There was a famous study that happened where hunter gatherers from ancestral times were analyzed using modern hunter gatherer societies. And women, a slightly, how do you say, motivated research team analyzed the data and said, women did just as much big game hunting as men, and maybe even more. And what they were trying to put across was women were able to do the thing that men did. Now, they fucked with the data.

• 4:29Chris Williamson?

  It turned out that that wasn't really the truth at all. But what it implicitly said was that hunting was important, but gathering wasn't.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 4:37Chris Williamson?

  And how is that not misogynistic?

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:39Chris Williamson?

  Like, that's the most misogynistic thing that I can think of from someone that's supposed to be. Pro women, you're saying the thing that you do or did, or your ancestors do or did naturally is not as important, and only if you're able to contort yourself into the shape of a man, are you worth something?

• 4:59Speaker 01

  So in the same way, you had women that did not fit the mold, say, back in the 50s and 60s, who maybe did want more, right, from life than being just a wife and mother. Although I use the word just only to make a point, not because I feel that way about it. If they did want more, they felt a little odd. And now you fast forward half a century and it's the complete opposite. It's important for people to understand, which I don't think people in their 20s and 30s do so much, and that is how this all really came to be, because feminism, the second wave, we're talking about 1970s feminism.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  When you do a deep dive, you, which most people aren't going to do, you know, but if you do it, if you do it, it was so depressing to have to go through all that stuff back in the day.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  You, you come to realize that the most, the loudest voices that we heard from, which is just a minority of women, right, it's not the everyday women, these are very small group of women who had some power and clout. And if you study their backgrounds, you find that just about every single one of them had a very dysfunctional story or upbringing or background that caused them to turn away either from men or marriage as a, as an institution. And rather than study their own story and come to terms with what happened to their, really their mom and dad is what we're talking about, they extrapolated that story to mean,

• 6:31Speaker 01

  oh, the whole system's screwed up, oh, marriage is oppressive, oh, no woman can be happy at home, I mean, they just made these stories. And because they had the spotlight. And people don't do that research. It sounded plausible because maybe if you're hearing, if you're a woman who kind of back in the day, did feel sort of whatever about motherhood, you're gonna, that's gonna speak to you.

• 6:53Chris Williamson?

  Or constrained by the lack of independence and financial freedom.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Because you are constrained for a while. You're going, it's a lot of work and it's a tremendous amount of sacrifice. It's a trade off that obviously I feel is 150% worth it. But we don't live in that world that, that after so many years of all of that messaging, it's, it's not like feminism, you don't, nobody really talks about it as a thing out in the world anymore. It's more like it's just embedded into the fabric now of society. You don't question or discuss feminism per se. It's just kind of accepted and known, well, of course, in order for a woman to be equal to a man, she's got to live that same life.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  You can't be powerful or happy or liberated or empowered if you're not working for pay.

• 7:44Chris Williamson?

  And if you do that, if you do the opposite of that, it's because you're specifically being counterculture.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Or oppressed.

• 7:51Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:51Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've been conned by the patriarchy.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  There you go. Yeah.

• 7:55Chris Williamson?

  So basically you're saying modern culture has prepared women for work.

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:01Chris Williamson?

  But not for relationships and family.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  150%, that's what I'm saying. And so what I'm, I'm receiving the women as a coach who are coming in and as I say, they're usually around 30, maybe a little younger, maybe a little older. And all of a sudden their priorities shift dramatically and they desperately want a baby, or they want to get married and can't find a man, or they are pregnant and they want to stay home and can't because they made all these decisions professionally, relationally, financially, to set them up for a life where you are never out of the workforce. And when you do that, you're, you're gonna feel stuck and it's gonna be a lot harder to extricate yourself from that if you, once your priorities shift. And that's kind of where I come in when they call me, like, ah, and sometimes their husbands don't want them to do it.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  And it's just been this, it's this mess really because of all this messaging and because, going back to your initial question about apologizing to them, what I'm basically saying is I'm sorry you were set up to fail. It's wrong and you were set up because of politics and you don't really realize that because this goes way back before you were even born.

• 9:02Chris Williamson?

  What are the decisions that you think lock women into this?

• 9:09Chris Williamson?

  Future that is difficult to navigate when they grow up.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  So I think there are three main decisions that women make throughout their twenties that can either set them up well or cause them to struggle more later. The first one is professional. So I've always been a very big proponent of finding and choosing a profession and a major in school, let's say, that works well with the kind of life you want to have down the line. So you have to really think ahead and play the long game when you're making these decisions. So instead of getting a degree in some

• 9:53Speaker 01

  major that isn't going to do anything for you, you're not going to make any money from it, find something practical and not just that pays a decent wage, but also that can be worked around how you see your life in your thirties and forties. So in other words, I mean, to simplify this, it's rather than putting career at the center of your life and trying to fit men in marriage and motherhood in around that, I want them to do the reverse. I want them to put family first and make these decisions orbit around that. And that begins with the kind of career that you can, A, move in and out of more easily, ones that can be done more, maybe part time or from home, ones that give you control.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  You own something, you know, like you could start a business later, just basically flexibility. So that when you're older and your priorities do shift, which for most women they do, you have options.

• 10:48Chris Williamson?

  Do you say to the women that go, why should I have to give that up? I don't want to have to give that up. I don't, why should I have to, why should I have to sacrifice and build my career around family life? I should.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  There's no should, but you will want, you will very likely want to. And if you set yourself up the way you're doing it, you'll have no options. If you do it the other way, you'll at least have the option because what you're going to feel like is important at 32 is going to be very different from what you feel like at 22. You just don't even realize how you're going to change.

• 11:18Chris Williamson?

  I think that's one of the challenges with this, right? That you're saying. Women who are not thinking about family literally don't even have it on their bingo card.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 11:29Chris Williamson?

  You need to think about a thing you're not planning for and currently don't want. It takes an unbelievable amount of counterculture pressure to be able to say, none of my friends think about this, none of modern media is suggesting that I do this. I don't even feel the desire to do this. And actively, if I got pregnant right now, I don't even know what I'd do about it. But I should start to construct a life that is future-proofing me in order to do that. It's a huge going into the against the tide moment.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  It's so huge, Chris. I mean, it's a big ask, right? I mean, and, and the-

• 12:02Chris Williamson?

  Doesn't surprise me that women aren't doing it.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  No, because it, the running joke is, well, I'm trying to get to you when you're 22 before you come to me at 32, but at 22, you're not interested, but at 32, you're like, help me, help me. And I'm like, you know, it's so hard. I mean, one of the hardest things about coaching for me has been hearing these women and knowing that all of this stuff could have been avoided if they had just been told the truth.

• 12:27Chris Williamson?

  Have you considered in school in the UK, we have something called scare them straight? I don't know whether you have the same thing. It's not gay conversion. It's getting prison guards in to schools and they explain how dangerous it is in prison and how bad of a time it is. And the whole point is to try and warn young, mostly boys, but I guess girls, to offer the life of crime. And I went to a very, very working class school in a very, very working class town with lots of crime in the UK. And I remember this guy came through and he had this sock which had batteries in and he was explaining about how the guys get into fights and they use these sort of like maces in socks to like get in scraps with, and he banged it on the table. And I remember I was so fucking scared. I went to bed that night, like it really did.

• 13:12Chris Williamson?

  For me, I was like, I cannot go to jail. That sounds fucking terrifying. Or they boil the kettle and put loads of sugar in and they make syrup and they throw it on people and it burns them and stuff. It was fucking terrifying. I was like 12. It was terrifying. Have you considered-

• 13:24Speaker 01

  What could I do that's comparable?

• 13:26Chris Williamson?

  Have you considered getting the women who are 32 to do an intervention with the women that are 19 and about to choose their major in college and being like, hey, why don't we organize a local meetup and- This it's not quite pan generational, but it's actually the important bit. The women who are facing this problem or facing this challenge, should I say, to go and have a conversation.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  That's a really good, that's a really good point. No, the answer is I have not thought about that, but that's a really great idea.

• 13:53Chris Williamson?

  Scare them straight.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:54Chris Williamson?

  Scare them straight. Don't forget.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 13:56Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  Well, because it's so, um, I don't.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  It's really scary. I mean, these women are really, really, it's hurting their marriages, obviously. It's not just hurting them personally, but if, if, for example, if you want to stay home, but you can't because you've set up this life.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  It's going to hurt their marriage. So then the marriage is falling apart, the, the family's falling apart. So this has a downward effect that, um, somehow.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  I, I think it's really clear for people who are very marriage minded, young, like there are a lot of people who.

• 14:29Chris Williamson?

  I always knew I wanted to be a mum.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 14:31Chris Williamson?

  I always knew I wanted to be a mum.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, like they get it. I mean, they're just like, well, yeah, of course I, you know, and that, so I'm not so concerned with them because they're going to set things up sort of naturally. I mean, I did that, for example. But.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  It's much harder today because as you say, and that's exactly right. That's why I'm a countercultural author. I mean, everything I do is basically my motto is if the culture says do it, don't. And you will be successful, but if you're following it, you're going to struggle.

• 15:01Chris Williamson?

  But the, the average American adult is likely to be divorced, has less than one K in the bank and they're obese. That's the average. That's the middle of the bell curve. So following the path that everybody else treads, sounds like, uh, outsourcing wisdom to the crowd, but it's actually a reliable route to a life that you probably don't want.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  And what do you think separates the people who get that from the ones who don't, you know?

• 15:27Chris Williamson?

  Not listening to what everybody else says. Well, so can you, can you give me an example of the prototypical 32 year old person that comes to you? What, what career choice have they made? What did they do in their twenties? And why is that an issue now? Because a lot of women might think, well, if I choose a high powered career, that means that I've earned more money, which means that I can step back from it.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  So I'd say the biggest issue there that cannot be overlooked, and one of the reasons, or one of the, one of the ways I think this began to go really downhill is student debt, which is a massive problem in America. And that messaging came from people who are parents who were like, doesn't matter what it costs. This is, I mean, this is the most important thing ever. So it doesn't matter if you have to go into debt for, to do it because you're just going to pay it back. Right? Well, the problem with that is by the time you're done with all the schooling and you've gotten the job and then you're starting to be paid enough to even begin to pay it back, all of a sudden you're around

• 16:29Speaker 01

  30 years old. And then this other thing comes into play. So that, and this leads into, you know, homeownership, all these, all these financial issues that were a result of decisions that were made, again, because they're not playing the long game because nobody taught them. Listen, if you go into this much debt and then you get married and maybe you want to stay home, you're not going to feel like you can because you owe all this money and your money's not going to go as far and you're not going to feel like you can have a house. And it just, it just, it's not fleshed out in the way that it needs to be. For both young, I mean, I have a son and a daughter and everything my husband

• 17:09Speaker 01

  and I taught was for both of them. But of course, their trajectories are going to be different because one's a boy and one's a girl. And that's another thing that's really taboo because nobody wants to parent their children, opposite sex children differently because you're supposed to be the same. But the reality is that girls and women's bodies do something that a man's doesn't. And that has to be taken into account when mapping out a life in a way that's unique to them.

• 17:38Chris Williamson?

  Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution? Something that identifies low T faster than a high school bully? And it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where Function comes in. Gives you access to over 160 lab tests, including a deep dive into your full hormone panel. Every result is reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of range is flagged. You get clear explanations with a personalized protocol with actionable next steps. So if something's off, you know exactly what to do about it. Whether you just need to go to the gym more or you need to play Creed louder in your car. Function will tell you exactly where your testosterone and everything else stands. Normally, this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it's $365 a year.

• 18:22Chris Williamson?

  That's $1 a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now, you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. So get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/ModernWisdom using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. Okay, so first thing is choosing your work, work, work and education career around, building it around the family.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Yes, flexibility, basically. Instead of these careers that are going to literally take over your life. You're working 24/7. You have no space in your life to even find love or nurture love or get married and have children. And you're not thinking about it. And then all of a sudden, you're, you're older and you're saying, where have all the good men gone? I don't see them. It just, it's, there's a, there's just a downward.

• 19:12Chris Williamson?

  So that's first.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 19:14Chris Williamson?

  You said there was three.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, sorry. So the second one is, what did I say? Professional and then relational. So this is another big one that's

• 19:25Speaker 01

  controversial, I guess. It used to be that men or moms and dads would tell their daughters, you know, don't bring home any man who doesn't have a job, right? Or isn't going somewhere, let's say. That's of course not done anymore because you're supposed to take care of yourself. You don't, you don't need a man to take care of you.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  So.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  There are a lot of women who are getting with men who are, who haven't found their professional footing, let's say, let's put it that way. Or they're gonna bank on the fact that they will find it someday. And you just basically don't want to marry a man who hasn't found themselves professionally because you, again, going back to, you're gonna have fewer options down the road because you, in fact, do need a man on whom you can depend financially, if only for a short period of time. And why should that be controversial? Here's something that's really interesting. They took a poll of Americans and 71% of American adults believe that it's important

• 20:36Speaker 01

  for a man to be able to provide for his family. Guess how many think a woman should be able to, or should, should do it?

• 20:43Chris Williamson?

  50?

• 20:44Speaker 01

  32.

• 20:45Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  71 to 32. Now, that says to me that we know instinctively that women become vulnerable when they have a child and that they're going to need support, both emotional and financial, for X period of time. And that that is in part why we need men to embrace their providing and providing and protecting desire. And women aren't sort of expected to be the providers because do we really want women

• 21:25Speaker 01

  to get pregnant, carry that baby for nine months, give birth, breastfeed, go through all of that, and by the way, get back to work? You should be working too while you're doing that. I mean, nobody really thinks that's a good idea that you hear, because why not just do that too? You know, it's not, it isn't natural. And if you're experiencing it, when you really do experience it and you look at it, you're like, how could I ask her to go do this right now? She's, she's, she's, she's very busy and she's very tired and she's depleted. And she has an appendage hanging from her that needs her. And so I think we know that instinctually and I think that's the reason for that gap.

• 22:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's, it's an interesting one because I wonder how many women are...

• 22:17Chris Williamson?

  Allowing themselves to pick up the slack of mate choices where they thought, "Well, I'm independent already, so financially, maybe I'm going to pay a little bit less attention to his future prospects in this way." You know, the top quintile, so the top 20% of female earners and the bottom 40% of male earners are mating with the woman as the primary breadwinner. So the top 20% of women are mating down socio-economically and the bottom 40% of men are mating up socio-economically. That's a big chunk. That's a lot.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  That's a lot.

• 22:48Chris Williamson?

  That's going on. So, yeah, I wonder how many women are basically picking up the slack, which creates this self-reinforcing loop of, "I need to work harder in order to be able to provide me the size and amount of freedom that I think that I need in order to be able to get a family off the ground without realizing that it kind of is a trap."

• 23:06Speaker 01

  It's a trap. They're locking themselves in. And then, I mean, it's true that we have a big problem with men not in the world and the way they used to be in producing, and that's a subject of its own. But there's a lot that women are doing to themselves. And again, I don't fault them. They were tutored to do this. They were schooled to live this life. It's just that, that's why they, when they reach out to me, they're like, "Why didn't anybody tell me about this?"

• 23:31Chris Williamson?

  It's hard to understand, make the argument, "You should be less financially independent." In what world does less financial independence make sense?

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Because that's not the right framing. The framing is, "What do you want? You know, why are we here? What's the most important thing in life? What do you really want in your life? What do you want your life to look like? What do you foresee your daily life to be like when you're 35, 40, 45? Like, what kind of relationship do you want with your family? What are your interests in work?" Like, you have to sort of pan out and decide what's the most important thing to you at the end of the day. And I believe, and maybe this is just a parenting thing, because I do think a lot of this is really about parenting. I do. I think that the culture can be the culture, but if parents were stronger in their opposing

• 24:24Speaker 01

  messages, that it would be, I feel like that's our best hope is through parenting, because it's very hard to change the culture, is teaching what really matters and why we're here. And is it really so that you can be as rich as you want or as...

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Well-known, I mean, are you, is status your goal? Or is meaning and your relationships and family your goal? And those, I hate to say it, are just, they're competing. They just, they compete with one another. And we don't like that. We want to, we want to create a world where they can coexist in extreme forms simultaneously. You know, you can be all of this and you can still have this all at the same time.

• 25:11Chris Williamson?

  As well-known and rich as possible whilst also having the family that you've always wanted.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  And you made a comment on one of your shows recently. What's that saying that someone said, what, what, what you see in private?

• 25:20Chris Williamson?

  What you're praised for in public, you pay for in private.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  That is exactly what I'm talking about. So you go out and you do this thing, but no one's talking about what really goes on at home to allow that to happen and how you're suffering.

• 25:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you can't, I gotta, I gotta bring this up. I gotta bring this up.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 25:36Chris Williamson?

  Are you familiar with Emma Greed? Do you know who she is?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 25:40Chris Williamson?

  Emma Greed is the British Kardashian whisperer entrepreneur who is the co-founder and CEO of the Good American Clothing Brand and a founding partner of Skims. But lately, she's been getting way more attention. Something else, how she parents her four kids, ages 12, 10 and four, the twins. And I've got a clip that I want to show you.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Well, and you're very honest about how you view parenting. I have to ask you about this. You did an interview with the Wall Street Journal and the headline was, "The Kardashian Whisperer Who Says Three Hours With Her Kids Is Enough." That's based on what you say in your book. You call yourself a three-hour-max mum. That raised a lot of eyebrows, as you know. What did you mean by that, a three-hour-max mum?

• 26:27Speaker 03

  Well, what I meant by it was exactly what I said, and I really don't want to backpedal. You know, the first thing that I thought when I saw that headline was like, wow, that would never have been written about a man. Nobody would ever have written that about my husband. The important thing is that I bring a level of honesty to everything I say. Because when you work Monday through Friday, the idea that you've got this entirely free weekend to just be with your kids and orient And take your whole world around your children. It's just not a reality. I have errands to run. I have things to do. And because we're in a social media culture that says, you know, you have to arrange every payday and count every macro and decide what your kids can and can't eat.

• 27:11Speaker 03

  And make sure that they're constantly entertained. It's impossible. We're setting women up for a failure and we're holding women to impossible standards. So what I meant when I said I was a three hour mom is that I probably spend like three hours with my kids doing the things that they want to do. Entertaining them, being down on the floor and playing with them. Then I have other things to do. And that's just the truth. It's just a reality. And I think a lot of parents feel exactly the same, that you're depleted after a week at work. And actually, you only have a couple of hours. But isn't that good enough? I think it is.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  What do you think of that? So much to say about that. I don't know where to begin.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Back when I wrote my first book, and that was 25 years ago, I, you can't even believe how many of these things. This, of course, we didn't have social media, but it was all print. But the amount of stuff that I read like that from working hardcore, working mothers, who basically wanted to make the argument that, you know,

• 28:12Speaker 01

  good enough, good enough mothering, just give them a box of cereal, they'll be fine for dinner. If you're too tired to cook, that kind of thing.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  I have a theory that this over parenting craze of the last, what do you think that is, 15 years?

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Came about as a result, sort of after women had started, mothers, excuse me, had started going into the work en masse. And finding out for themselves that, wow, okay, this doesn't work well with, especially with littles, but full time, with motherhood, with young children. And they had to cut corners. And so

• 28:52Speaker 01

  my argument's always been that those are two full time jobs. In the same way, you can't be a doctor and a lawyer simultaneously. Nobody would suggest you do that. It's no different from full time motherhood and whatever she's doing or people are doing that are full time. They clash, they inherently clash. And something's got to give and you have to make choices. So.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  There's a couple of different elements to that. On the one hand, I want to say, you know, when you are home full time, let's say with your children, it is true that you would only spend a couple of hours, as she puts it, down on the floor with them, doing something of, you know, that they want to do really intensely. It's not like stay at home moms are any different from her in that regard. The difference is that the rest of the hours of the day, you are physically present and available. So as an at home mom, you're not supposed to be on the floor 12 hours a day engaged with your child as if they're the center of the universe. That's not motherhood.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  But it got skewed when, when this transformation happened, when moms were trying to mother with leftover time and feeling intense about it, like, oh, my gosh, I haven't been here all day, so I have to really make this one or two hours count. And then they came up with a conclusion about, well, it's not supposed to be this way. Let's just say, screw that. But that's a misreading of really what it, it's not that you can be absent 10 hours and then come home for two hours and be intense. It's when you're there and you are present, there's so much going on that is outside of the one on one care. I don't know if I'm making this very clear.

• 30:33Chris Williamson?

  Well, it seems like what Emma would say is she's making it work. She's doing three hours and the kids have, at least.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 30:40Chris Williamson?

  Well, what do you think's happening to kids that are getting three hours with mum over a weekend? Or three hours on a Saturday and three hours on a Sunday?

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Well, it's more about what's happening the rest of the time. It's not, I mean, those three hours might be great, but what's happening the rest of the, the hours of the week? You can't fill in for an absence with a couple of hours a week with small children. It just doesn't work that way. That whole quality time thing is bogus. That's not real. Children need tons and tons and tons of quantity time, not quality time. It's just not something you can just do in leftover time. I don't know how else to say it.

• 31:15Chris Williamson?

  Why do you think Emma believes that you can then?

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Because she needs to. Otherwise, her life wouldn't work if she actually entertained something else. So if, I don't know how, I don't know her and I don't know how many children she has and I don't know how young they are. Oh, you said four, right?

• 31:29Chris Williamson?

  Twelve, eight and two four year olds.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 31:31Chris Williamson?

  But it doesn't sound like this is a new. Revelation to her. It seems like this is her approach to, this has been her approach to parenting.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 31:39Chris Williamson?

  For a while. She's been the CEO of Skims.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Oh, sure. There's people who do it all the time.

• 31:43Chris Williamson?

  She's got a lot of daycare help, a lot of handler.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:46Chris Williamson?

  Child, childcare assistance.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  But for example, if we were to present to, I don't want to talk about her per se, but just somebody like that, present to her information about the early years, like you spent several hours with Erica Comasar talking about what goes on in the early years and attachment and all of that. A person who has a different philosophy about it will not be able to take that information in because in order to do that, you'd have to completely rearrange your life and look at it very differently.

• 32:15Chris Williamson?

  What you're suggesting here is that in order for this kind of life to work where there's only three hours with kids, there are some unseen, but very powerful.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Well paid.

• 32:28Chris Williamson?

  Attachment, attachment costs that are going to happen to the kids.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 32:32Chris Williamson?

  That there's damage that's being done, but it's, it's just not visible. But the damage that would be done if you had to leave work would be immediately visible.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Say that last second one, the damage, if you will.

• 32:41Chris Williamson?

  If you had to leave work. So if you had to, there are no solutions. There's only trade offs.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 32:46Chris Williamson?

  And the trade off that you have to make here is in order for me to work as much as I want to work.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:53Chris Williamson?

  The kids don't get to see me, but they're fine.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:55Chris Williamson?

  Is the assumption.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:56Chris Williamson?

  Erica's work is saying, no, they're not. And this isn't good for them.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:01Chris Williamson?

  But that price gets pushed down the line. You know, the attachment issues only show up when they're trying to date in their twenties and thirties.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  There you go. That's it.

• 33:09Chris Williamson?

  However, the alternative, the other trade off, which would be, I need to leave work, that's paid immediately.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:15Chris Williamson?

  That gets paid right now.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:17Chris Williamson?

  So it's.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  I mean, we're not even allowed to talk about this. Let's, let's be honest. So, I mean, not only, not only does it, do we not address it until years later when they're in their relation, own relationship, we don't even talk about the early years. We don't talk about daycare being bad, for example. So.

• 33:32Chris Williamson?

  I keep on putting my foot in it. It's fine.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So, anyway, I don't know how we got on to, to her, what I said per se, but.

• 33:41Chris Williamson?

  You were just talking about this, like, cultural pressure on women.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:45Chris Williamson?

  To produce in the same way as men do.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 33:48Chris Williamson?

  What does the cultural pressure on women to produce in the same way as men do to women?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yep. So.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  I don't think at the beginning, it feels necessarily negative. I think when, when men and women are young, their lives do look remarkably similar. You go to school, you get a job, you're working, you're not married with kids yet. So you kind of do look interchangeable, right? Doing the same things and everybody's fine. My argument is that it's really not until you start to either think about children or then really when you have them, that our differences become glaring between women and men. So for example, when a woman goes through all of that, that physically in being pregnant,

• 34:39Speaker 01

  giving birth, breastfeeding, and being at home in those early months or years nurturing. I mean, when she has a baby, her first inclination is not to financially provide for the baby. Your first inclination as a woman is to take care of him or her and to nurture him or her. That is natural to you. Your, your desire to work for pay, at least in that moment, for those, let's just say, months ramps down. Generally speaking, when a man becomes a father, his desire to provide ramps up. And my theory about that is really that I feel like because there's such a difference in men and women

• 35:24Speaker 01

  as mothers and fathers in those early years, it's so obvious and natural that a baby needs his mother because you're physically attached and there's so much that she's doing physically. And I feel like a father is sort of, he's there more to support her and to get things done so that she can be with her baby. But he doesn't really feel needed in the same way. And so his response to, oh, my gosh, now I have a baby, I've got it. Is immediately to, to ramp up his desire to provide. That's, that's my theory about it. So when you have a child, it really just makes our differences glare. And they just continue. Like it just continues. There's so many things that go on after the baby comes where marriages start to strain.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  Because they are operating in sameness mode, equality mode, 50/50, tit for tat. You do this, I do this. How much did you... And it's a shit show, honestly. It really is. You cannot go into marriage with that mentality or you're going to be really unhappy. And so, anyway, going back to your question is, I just feel like because those differences between us don't show up until later, I think women don't realize until later how much they've been misled and how much it is hurting them until they're in the throes of it.

• 36:41Chris Williamson?

  What are you learning about breadwinning mums?

• 36:49Speaker 01

  This is a really difficult subject for people to talk about.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Again, going back to what we're saying is that we're supposed to be the same, so there shouldn't be any difference. But the truth of the matter is, for most women, and not all, there are some women who are happy and fine in, you know, living a more traditional man's life for life. But for most women, it has been my experience doing this for so many years, that eventually, no matter how happy they may be in their career at first, or, you know, being independent, earning money, whatever, if they're going to be a wife and mother, and if you're not, that might be a separate conversation, ultimately,

• 37:35Speaker 01

  that pressure to produce becomes very taxing, once you've become a wife and mother, especially a mother, really a mother.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  And the more and more you are the primary breadwinner, and oftentimes this happens, not necessarily consciously, but as the relationship grows, and if you are becoming the primary provider, or the main provider, and I mean if there's a real gap here, especially if you have a stay-at-home dad, let's say, that's almost an extreme version of that,

• 38:12Speaker 01

  they become resentful.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  And it's not, I really, it's not their fault. It's just, it's not natural for them to be doing both of those things, in my opinion, simultaneously unscathed. Meaning you can, but you're wearing yourself into the ground. This is why we have the mental health crisis we do. This is why we're having marriages strained as we do, because you're asking them to do too much. You cannot do both of these things simultaneously without breaking down. It's because they're not meant to be done simultaneously. But the only way you could understand that is if you acknowledge the incredible amount of work that goes into raising a baby to become a healthy adult. If you dismiss that or think that's just something you can do on the side, you're not really, this isn't going to register for you.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  You know, you have, and that goes back to the whole career at the center and thinking you can just, these things can orbit around it. And it just, it just doesn't work that way. A man who's providing is in the main role, he's not going to be taxed by that. He's going to be emboldened by that. He wants to do that. He's a provider and a protector. It's in his DNA and it's unique to him and it's special for him, you know? And we've taken that away from it, I think.

• 39:24Chris Williamson?

  In other news, Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce companies in the US. They are the driving force behind Gymshark and Skims and ALO and Neutonic, which is why I partnered with them because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout is 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And with Shop Pay, you can boost conversions up to 50%. Basically, you didn't get into business to learn how to code or build a website or deal with the inventory stuff bullshit on the backend. You just want to get down to creating and promoting an awesome product. And Shopify takes all of the mess off your hands and allows you to focus on the job you actually came here to do, designing and selling the thing that you love.

• 40:07Chris Williamson?

  So upgrade your business and get the same checkout that we use with Neutonic with Shopify. Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to Shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's Shopify.com/modernwisdom. You've got a line, "Men want their wives happy, and if they believe she wants to provide, they instinctively step back. After all, if she's bringing in enough, why work harder or work more?"

• 40:35Speaker 01

  So I, I truly believe that men need an incentive to work hard. They need something to work toward, not just work for work's sake, but to work towards something, a reward, accolades, you know, to produce, to be useful. And, you know, when you have an entire generation of women saying, you know, I can have the babies, raise them, and I can take care of them financially, too. Where are they gonna go? What's gonna happen to men? I mean, it's happening now. They're pulling back. They're pulling back because they're saying, well, I guess nobody needs me. So, you know, it would be a lovely world if we could say, well, they should just do

• 41:20Speaker 01

  it for themselves, you know, the sake of themselves. But I just don't think men do that. I think they need incentive. And the greatest incentive of all has always been providing for a family. And I think it's just been disastrous for them, honestly, that they've been told, we don't need that anymore.

• 41:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, there's some interesting paradoxes here that deadbeat dads, fathers that don't contribute much, almost universally, even by feminists, seen as not good. It would be better if you were contributing more, especially financially, and making it easier on the wife. But also, it's put forward that women shouldn't need to rely on their male partner and that they shouldn't really be looking for their financial stability that much at all, because I have my thing going on. And you can be a stay-at-home dad. And similarly, there's a lot of complaints around the lack of maternity leave in the US, which I think is fucking barbaric. Like, it's insane.

• 42:25Chris Williamson?

  And also, that your career is the most important thing that you'll ever do in your life. And that if you are not working as a mom, I have a friend who had a bunch of kids, then her and her husband stopped, and she was working while they had the first ones, and then the most recent one, she decided to be a stay-at-home mom. And she went to a playdate with her three-year-old, the newest one, and a bunch of other moms, and they were all working moms. And one of the moms turned to her and she said, you know what? I really wish that I'd known you while you were working, you know, while you had a lot going on.

• 43:01Chris Williamson?

  And she said it felt like she's never felt that hurt by another comment from someone.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  So I'm glad you brought that up because that.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  I mean, you've really hit. A nugget there of what makes so many women today feel that they can't succumb to their inherent desire to just be a mom. And I say just on purpose, not because in their minds, it's just being a mom. And I I'm kind of been here all.

• 43:31Chris Williamson?

  To not need to be anything more than a mother.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Yes. And I've been like, this is the whole thing. This is it. This is why we're on the planet. This is to build relationships, build a family. There is work that goes into this. It doesn't, kids don't just come about while you go do your thing, you know, it's, it's work. And because it's not work that is paid.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  We as, we as we are today as a country that is materialistic, individualistic, all about stuff, status. We don't value it anymore. We don't value anything that doesn't.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Have a nice giant paycheck associated with it.

• 44:10Chris Williamson?

  It doesn't generate economic return. Yeah.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  And this is new. I mean, really, this is new. Like, this is new in the last, I don't know, I want to say. I want to say quarter of a century. I've been writing about this since, for about 25 years. And it, it's been interesting to see where things were with this subject then and now. It's just gotten worse and worse and worse in terms of our values and this materialism that we live in today. And it's so twisted that when you start with that base of money, money, money, status, career, whatever, you're never going to be successful in your professional life and in, excuse me, in your personal life and in your relationships because your focus is on the wrong thing. I mean, this is true for men and women, by the way.

• 44:50Chris Williamson?

  Your, your position here, it's probably worth restating it if it's not obvious. What you're saying is that your family life will be more important and more rewarding to you than your professional life. Because if you don't have that frame, or if you're unaware of that frame, none of this makes sense.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying.

• 45:06Chris Williamson?

  The only other caveat here. Which we need to get on to at some point is, well, there are material constraints. I need to have food on the table. I need to have a roof over my head. So it's not just I can live my life by my values exclusively. There are also genuine material.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Right. We got to talk about things around it that will.

• 45:24Chris Williamson?

  But your point here is.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  Start with that base.

• 45:27Chris Williamson?

  Correct.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Start with that value at the nucleus.

• 45:29Chris Williamson?

  In your, in your experience, how many women have you worked with?

• 45:33Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, I've been coaching for about five years. And then the women I heard from before that were all from my book. So I don't.

• 45:42Chris Williamson?

  Thousands, tens of thousands.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Not one on one with thousands, but I've heard from thousands over the years for sure.

• 45:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Um, in your experience, how true is it that women realize that their career was the most important thing? And that the family thing didn't really matter that much?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Zero.

• 46:04Chris Williamson?

  I mean, there's a selection effect. They're coming to you for a reason, right? The sort of things that you're writing about, the independent lean in ladies are maybe not going to gravitate to your content. But I, look, nobody is telling women, and I get in trouble all the time for this. I've never, and nobody that's ever been on the show has told women to have kids that they don't want to have. No one that want, that doesn't want to have kids should have kids. In fact, I'm actively opposed to women who don't want to have kids having kids. I think it's a horrible idea. I think it's a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible idea. However, given that most women end up having kids in the end and.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Eighty six percent by the time the end of their maternal.

• 46:46Chris Williamson?

  But don't forget that women who get to the end of their biological clock, they hit menopause and can't have kids, but didn't have kids.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:55Chris Williamson?

  Eighty percent of them didn't intend to be childless. Four out of five, four out of five women who don't have children after menopause didn't intend.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Which shows you how small.

• 47:06Chris Williamson?

  Correct. So 10% of women can't.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:10Chris Williamson?

  Very unfortunate. Lots and lots of pain associated with that biologically. Around about 10% of women end up realizing that they didn't want to, don't want to. That is a group as well. Eighty percent of women who don't have kids.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  Did not do that by choice.

• 47:25Chris Williamson?

  Didn't intend to be childless.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  They're not childless by choice.

• 47:27Chris Williamson?

  Correct. Yes. Yeah. And.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Listen, instinct is strong and we are.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  I mean, we are governed by our instincts, whether we, we don't like to talk about it that way because we want social, we want to set up a social system the way we want it to be, but it's going against what our desires are. And that, and to me, one of my, um, one of my lines is that societal, uh, progress does not undo biological leanings. I mean, we are what we are. We have to work with, you know, I say move with the biological tide, not against it. The more you move with it, the smoother your life will be. Every time you're trying to move against it, you're fighting, you know, I don't want it to be this way. I don't want it to be this way. It shouldn't be this way. And then you're just miserable all the time.

• 48:12Chris Williamson?

  Do you think mothers are denigrated in modern society, like women punished socially for wanting traditional lives?

• 48:24Speaker 01

  I don't know if I'd say punished. I just think that they feel that that's the wrong choice to make. That's what I think, that they just cannot shout it from the rooftops, cannot openly talk about it or plan for it. They have to sort of.

• 48:41Chris Williamson?

  You don't think women are seen as second-class citizens?

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Um.

• 48:45Chris Williamson?

  When they, when they become mothers versus when they stay working? To me, it seems, it doesn't seem like there's that much, that the pedestalization of mothers seems to come from a counterculture standpoint, or a trad wife, conservative talking point, like some Christian white picket fence thing. And to me, I don't see that much pro motherhood content.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Yes. No, I agree with that.

• 49:06Chris Williamson?

  That Emma Greed lady was on Oprah and she did two million plays a couple of weeks ago.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  If you're asking me whether that, whether the non-motherhood women, I don't know how you want to define it, gets more play in society. Well, yeah, that's like 90/10. But my, but you know, it's always, that's mostly because the women who are wives and mothers and even happy doing it are quietly living their lives. They're not in front, they're not sitting here, right? So you're not going to hear from them. There's millions of them. It's just they're not represented because the people who are represented in the media, not so much alternative media, but all these years in mainstream media, are the minority of women for whom family is not the focus. That's really important to understand because. Prior to YouTube and social media and all of that,

• 49:54Speaker 01

  all of the information was coming from this small group of women who do not represent the average woman. And that's why it's skewed and makes the masses of women feel like there's something wrong with them. When in fact, they're the norm. And those women you're hearing from are not.

• 50:08Chris Williamson?

  But they're the most influential and the loudest.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 50:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. You say who you marry and how that marriage fares will have more of an effect on your happiness and wellbeing than anything else that you do. Do you think women are aware of this?

• 50:22Speaker 01

  No. I don't. I don't. Where would they hear it? Who's saying it to them? I mean, you're not allowed to talk about it. And when, when, really, when would they hear it? If their parents aren't passing that on. Seriously, if their parents are not passing that on. Or some family member. They're not going to hear it in the media. They're not going to hear it at school. They're not going to hear it on the, where would you hear it?

• 50:46Chris Williamson?

  Well, the Disney movies wouldn't be pushing that kind of a meme as much as it would have done in the 90s and maybe the 2000s.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  I mean, look, the reality is you can, you can change your career. You can change your job. People do it all the time. You can shift your interests and all of that. But who you marry, if you have children with them, you are tied with them until you die. If you have children. Now, obviously, there's divorce. But A, who wants to promote that? That's not really, you know, any, what anybody wants to do. And B, you're, you've created a family. And so you are, you are linked. So it has more impact on what direction your life takes than your, than a career choice. Because again, you can change your career. You can't just change out a husband or a wife. I mean, people try all the time, but doesn't really work very well.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Second marriages are notoriously more flimsy than first. Third, even more so. Fourth, even more. I mean, just go down the line. It's not, it's not really an answer for most people. So we need to give it, in my opinion, the weight that it deserves and the.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Attention that it deserves and we're so afraid to talk about it. And that says so much about where we are today in what we value that we can't even openly talk about what's great about marriage.

• 52:08Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 52:10Chris Williamson?

  If it's the most important decision that someone's going to make.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  If they want to make it, I'm not telling you have to make it.

• 52:15Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  If you don't want to get married, don't get married, but most people do. Most people do get married eventually.

• 52:20Chris Williamson?

  If it's, if it's as important as it is for the people who want to do it.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:24Chris Williamson?

  Isn't that strong evidence against rushing into a marriage?

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Um, no, I would say, well, I don't think anybody should rush into marriage for sure. But I, I would say it's an argument for early education about marriage.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  And early education about, um.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Gosh, there's so much education that young people don't get when it comes to the subject because again, we're not allowed to talk about it.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Take the fertility crisis, you know, we don't, we're not allowed to talk about the fact that even.

• 53:02Chris Williamson?

  You're among friends here.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  That you have a biological clock. I mean, why should I not talk about that? It's, I can't change it. I didn't make it. It's just is, right? So let's work with it. Let's create a life that works with what is, not with what we wish could be. And so that's a taboo subject to say that you can't tell that to women, you know? So, okay, well, the reality is a 40 year old man can marry a 30 year old women's woman and still have a family. And it's not going to be the same if a woman's 40 and looking for a husband. And let's talk about that. Even though it's painful to talk about or whatever.

• 53:36Chris Williamson?

  What does dating with purpose look like for modern women? How do you advise women to date well?

• 53:45Speaker 01

  You know, things have gotten so bad on that department, in that department, like so much so over the last 10 or 15 years, really 10 years, that I, I'm almost to the point where I'm like, just, just get it on the table in the first three dates.

• 53:59Chris Williamson?

  Get what?

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Just like what you want and what you're looking for. And, you know, it, I have this theory that you just, you weed out the people who aren't on the same page as you, when you just get it on the table.

• 54:11Chris Williamson?

  What does that look like?

• 54:12Speaker 01

  For example, okay.

• 54:13Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, we're in a date, we're in a date.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Okay. I mean, the first date, no, the first date is just who are you? Hello, where are you from? What do you like?

• 54:20Chris Williamson?

  Okay, it's our third, it's our third date.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Presumably, if you're on a third date with someone, you are getting into deeper conversations than on the first, right? Just by nature of you're talking more, so more things are going to come up. You're going to talk about your background, presumably, and you're going to talk about your history and what you want, I think, I guess I did. And naturally, in the conversation, you're going to kind of learn whether or not the person is family focused or career focused, or wanting something temporary or wanting something permanent. I feel like by the third date, you would know that. Do you disagree?

• 54:59Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  And so why, there's just so much pretending going on.

• 55:04Chris Williamson?

  What would you ask?

• 55:05Speaker 01

  So much fear.

• 55:05Chris Williamson?

  So imagine, imagine for a second that we're on the date. Let's role play this and you're going to say, you're going to ask me some of the questions that you think are important for, for women to ask.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  You didn't prepare me for this, Chris.

• 55:16Chris Williamson?

  Look, you've taught enough women how to do it. Put your cards on the table.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  I mean, tell me about your, you know, if it didn't come up naturally, tell me about your childhood. Tell me about your parents. Are your parents married? Let's have the conversation. Are your parents married?

• 55:30Chris Williamson?

  Why is that, why is that important?

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Because it's going to skew how you think about marriage, probably.

• 55:34Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Do you have a good impression of it? Do you have a bad impression of it?

• 55:38Chris Williamson?

  All right, what else?

• 55:41Speaker 01

  What, and then about your work, what, what? Tell me about your work, you know? Where are you with things? What, I mean, it sounds, this sounds more like a business meeting, but I, it would be more natural than that. You'd be talking about what you like and what you do for work. And that would tell me where you are in the scheme of things. And if you asked me, depending on where I was, that would tell you a lot about me.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Let's see, we go all the way back to my twenties. I'll just tell you with my husband, I was a teacher. And so he knew right away that I love children. He knew that, well, I was married before, so that was, that, there's a great example of just something that comes up naturally. So, oh, well, what happened? Well. And then you get into different values and priorities, which is what happened with my first marriage. And he wanted different things. Oh, well, then what do you want? Well, I want to have children. I want to be home with them. That ding ding ding ding ding ding is going to tell the guy, well, okay, she wants to be home with them. I guess we're going to live on a one income family. If I stick with this girl. What's wrong with that? I mean, it just gets it out, you know? And if you don't want it, great.

• 56:49Chris Williamson?

  So you should be asking.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Go to the next person.

• 56:51Chris Williamson?

  You should be asking things like, do you want kids? How many?

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Yes, but it doesn't necessarily have to be so directed. Like I said, it would come up naturally, like, like I just explained. And he knew just from what I said, without having to say, do you want that, you know?

• 57:04Chris Williamson?

  The, the, the, the audience are charismatic autists. So they understand, they, they understand how to get something across in a normal way whilst being highly abnormal internally.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 57:15Chris Williamson?

  Ninety five percent of people don't get enough fiber, which is why Momentous built Fiber Plus, because hitting your daily fiber target through food alone is actually kind of hard, even harder than your last toilet trip. Fiber isn't just a digestion thing. It's the foundation of your gut health, which drives how well you absorb nutrients, how stable your energy is and how quickly you recover. If your gut isn't dialed, everything else you're doing is working at a fraction of its potential. Fiber Plus is a three in one formula built to address digestion, gut barrier strength and blood sugar stability all at once. That's why I plan to make my next big dump Momentous.

• 57:53Chris Williamson?

  Best of all, they offer a 30 day money back guarantee. So you can buy it and try it for 29 days. And if you don't love it, they'll give you your money back. Plus they ship internationally. Right now you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernd wisdom and using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's L I V E M O M E N T O U S dot com slash modern wisdom. A modern wisdom. A check out. I think you're right. I think that being intentional with dating is one of the most important things because I think about basically the way that the human attachment system works, like not anxious, avoidant, secure, but the human romantic attachment system is basically

• 58:37Chris Williamson?

  one big psychedelic trip that hopes that you can attach yourself to this person sufficiently quickly while you're in the drug state before you get to the my brains come back online state. And I wonder how many people, I started hanging out with this person and, you know, they were nice and hot and I kind of got a bit obsessed with them. They used to text me all the time. And then, you know, we just started hanging out a bit more and that we didn't really move in, but we started staying over each other's houses a bit. And then we decided, well, we might as well move in. And that was, you know, like nine months or something. And then, and then we got a golden retriever because we thought for Christmas, you get me a golden retriever. I've always wanted a golden retriever. And then, and then, yeah, we, we just sort of stayed together and things kind of became comfortable. And,

• 59:21Chris Williamson?

  you know, we settled into it. And then we just thought, well, like you get engaged. That's what people do. You get engaged and then we, you know, the marriage wedding came along and things were okay. And then, you know, we had the first kitten. Before you know it, you've fallen backward into a relationship and a cohabiting situation and a dog and an engagement and a marriage and kids that at no point you actually chose.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 59:44Chris Williamson?

  You didn't choose this thing. This person was around you. They were in your proximity while you didn't have any serotonin in your brain.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And that is why I have been against cohabitation from day one. And I was saying it from a, in a different way because people, it wasn't from a religious perspective or sex perspective. It was, it doesn't, it doesn't serve you well to do that for exactly the reason that you described. People often slide into marriage as a result of everything you just described, as opposed to making a conscious, well thought out decision in advance. This is who I want to marry. And you need objectivity for that. You need separation. You need to go home to your own space.

• 1:00:19Chris Williamson?

  What do you advise people to do instead?

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Not live together, date and live in their own. No. I mean, once they're engaged,

• 1:00:26Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  That's fine. Once you've made, it's about making the decision. You make the decision from a distance, from living in your own space. Will you marry me? Yes. Ah, and then go about your business. But if you do it before, it's like you said, it's all skewed because, well, you're here, we're in it now.

• 1:00:44Chris Williamson?

  You're larping as a married couple without having actually got the wedding done, which makes you think that the wedding becomes more of a formality than a decision.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:51Chris Williamson?

  It's just a natural progress. We're already kind of married, right? We're already doing it. I mean, how many people have gone, well, you know, we're already kind of doing it. That's a really, I've never even thought about it that way. The, the cohabitation effect, which you're probably familiar with, that gets explained away by a variety of different reasons. But

• 1:01:10Chris Williamson?

  I've never thought about it as keeping you and your partner separate until you make the decision to be engaged. Because what lots of people would say is, I'm not going to marry someone that I don't know if I can live with them.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  No, but it doesn't, eh.

• 1:01:20Chris Williamson?

  But the difference is you can call off an engagement way easier than you can call off a marriage. And if you're saying, the decision that you make is actually the engagement one, right? The, once you're on that set of train tracks, the marriage sort of comes along for the ride, but it is a reversible decision, significantly more reversible than getting

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:36Chris Williamson?

  the fucking family together and all of the things. And then you've done this big ceremony and rah rah rah. If you say, you shouldn't make the decision of the engagement, you shouldn't make the proposal until you're sure that this is a good thing to do. And the best way to be sure is to have most of your faculties and logic intact, which means that keeping a little bit of distance is a good idea. And I'm sure that people are going to spend weeks together, traveling and going on holiday and staying together and stuff. But permanent locked in, living together, kind of causes you to fall backwards into marriage without thinking about it because it's a natural progression. But then you have still this window of a testing ground of, okay, can we live together? Like, can we

• 1:02:19Chris Williamson?

  lock this in from engagement up until marriage? That means you're not getting slip streamed, you're not secretly getting the marriage thing pushed along, but it does allow you to go, oh, fucking hell, like, I didn't realize that this was going to be such a big deal. And maybe this is something that we can.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  You mean during that engagement period?

• 1:02:40Chris Williamson?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  I wonder what the stats are on, if there are any stats on, well, maybe that's what you're looking up. With you, if you've called off the engagement, is that what you want to know?

• 1:02:52Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Once you're engaged and living together?

• 1:02:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, my point, my point is.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  Or just living together?

• 1:02:56Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, my point is just, yeah, engaged and living together. If you don't live together until you're engaged, it means that you're not forced to get engaged because you're living together.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:03Chris Williamson?

  And if you live together during the engagement, it still is a moderately reversible door.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  I see.

• 1:03:09Chris Williamson?

  If you go, fuck, this does not work, because most people's, and mine, mine, I'm unmarried, right?

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:14Chris Williamson?

  My, my concern would be, what, you're telling me that I'm going to not just get engaged, but get married to this person without knowing if we could live together? That seems like a large risk. What if our lifestyles are incompatible? What if?

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  Give me an example, because, you know, there were eons when people didn't live together until they got married, right? More so than there were people who did. And they stayed married more than we do today.

• 1:03:39Chris Williamson?

  That's true.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  They did.

• 1:03:40Chris Williamson?

  I'm not convinced that that's necessarily because of this reason.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no, no. But I'm saying, my question would be, what do you think they did? What, what, do you think it was horrible? What, what do you imagine would, it would be like if you moved in after you were married as opposed to living together? What are the kinds of things? Because isn't that, doesn't marriage require you to figure that out anyway for the rest of your life?

• 1:04:04Chris Williamson?

  To a degree, it does. I, I, I think what people have, and I'm probably speaking for an entire generation of young men and women, who have an ambient fear around there being some fundamental incompatibility that I have with my partner, which is only revealed once we live together. I don't think that's unreasonable to think that it might be the case, that there might be something in there. But I understand what you mean, which is if you've spent enough time together, you've stayed over at each other's houses, you've spent weeks and maybe even months traveling together and doing things and stuff like that. You know what their sleep patterns?

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what do you mean by like, what are the things you learned? Like, you mean dishes? I mean, stupid things?

• 1:04:41Chris Williamson?

  I, yeah, your level of tolerance for being together for very extended, very compacted periods of time. I mean, how many marriages did we see break up during COVID? Because people were spending an amount of time together that they hadn't been exposed to previously. And I have to assume that maybe the same thing might be true if someone had never lived with their partner.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Do you think there's a person with whom? That wouldn't happen if you were together all the time, that you would love to be with 24/7? Do you think there's a person that you, that would not be an issue?

• 1:05:13Chris Williamson?

  It's a shame that I'm not gay, because I've got a couple of friends that I'd happily do that with. I've hung out with a lot of friends for a long time without any like distraction, and it's been fucking sick. It's just that the penis thing gets to me. But.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? I'm saying, in other words, you said you want to know whether or not you could live with the person.

• 1:05:33Chris Williamson?

  The level of compatibility.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm trying to understand why that wouldn't have been ironed out with everything you described, staying over each of those houses.

• 1:05:41Chris Williamson?

  You're right, you're right, you're right. I think it's a.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  If it's about being with them all the time, because it's so much space together, well, that's going to be the case with whoever you marry, right? So is there a person whom you could spend that much time with and it wouldn't matter at all? Or is that just human nature?

• 1:05:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, again, it's.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  Rub up against each other.

• 1:05:55Chris Williamson?

  It's trying to avoid some of the huge issues. Anyway, just this cohabitation effect. Divorce rate for people who cohabited before marriage, 31.4%. Divorce rate for people who did not cohabitate before marriage, 25.9%. Earlier research often found premarital cohabitation associated with roughly 20 to 50% higher divorce risk, depending on controls and demographics. The sliding versus deciding, that's exactly what you're talking about. So the unclear commitment is a really, and inertia is the same thing.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:27Chris Williamson?

  Unclear commitment is a really interesting one, which is one of the explanations for the cohabitation effect is that

• 1:06:37Chris Williamson?

  what both partners are doing is saying, you're good enough for right now. You're good enough for us to live together, but you're not good enough for me to get engaged to at the moment. So it is a, it's an amount of commitment, but it's not the commitment, right? That everybody's looking for.

• 1:06:56Chris Williamson?

  But obviously, there's a big, one of the criticisms of the cohabitation effect is it's a selection effect. Like, people who don't live together before they get married includes a whole host of very religious communities.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, that's true.

• 1:07:08Chris Williamson?

  Much more stringent rules around divorce. They've got a culture that supports marriage in a different sort of a way. The kinds of people who wouldn't live together before also are maybe likely to be virgins or less socio-sexual. There is something about that kind of person. But I also think that it's too big of a difference between 20 and 50% increases in divorce because of cohabitation. There has to be something about cohabiting which causes that impact.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  And of course, the studies have been done. As you, I mean, the sliding versus deciding is not small. That's a huge piece of it. I mean, you.

• 1:07:44Chris Williamson?

  I've never heard that before. It's such a cool.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Slide, you slide into it because you're already there. And the reasons why you shack up, let's say, are different from the reasons why you get down on one knee and ask someone to marry you for the rest of your life. Those are two different decisions completely. They don't really have anything in common. So you started out with this sort of flimsy thing, and then you can't really figure out if this is the one because you're already doing it. And that's where the sliding comes in.

• 1:08:08Chris Williamson?

  And that's the inertia thing, too. It's just momentum. We've already started to, well, we, you know, we're paying for the rent together.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  And maybe they bought a house. That's even, don't ever buy a house with somebody you're not married to. That's a big.

• 1:08:18Chris Williamson?

  Don't ever buy a house with somebody you're not married to.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  No, don't do anything financial that binds you if you're not married. You're gonna, it's a, it's a, it's a really dumb idea. I don't know how else to say that.

• 1:08:32Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so, women dating well, dating with purpose.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  Dating with purpose or don't date at all. I mean, just date with, and get it out on the table, and you will weed out. It's selective. If they don't want it, no hard feelings. Bye, that's fine.

• 1:08:46Chris Williamson?

  Are you familiar with the idea of a shit test? Do you know what that is?

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  From.

• 1:08:50Chris Williamson?

  Pick a party, three. Yeah.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  Yes, the women to the men, that shit test their men.

• 1:08:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  To see if they are strong enough.

• 1:08:56Chris Williamson?

  Push the buttons.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:08:57Chris Williamson?

  Exactly. I.

• 1:09:00Chris Williamson?

  Had an equivalent when I was dating, which was I would send weird psychology articles to the girl that I was talking to, to see

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  See what her reaction was.

• 1:09:11Chris Williamson?

  What she would respond with. I'm like, look, this is kind of important to me. My work is something that I care about and I think is interesting. And marriage is basically one big fucking long podcast. It's a huge conversation that lasts for 20,000 to 30,000 hours.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  And still having it?

• 1:09:28Chris Williamson?

  It's important to me and relationship, my relationships have failed in the past because I haven't had much or enough

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Interest in that same thing.

• 1:09:35Chris Williamson?

  To talk about with my partner. And that means it's really important that we can get on the same page. So I would almost over signal weird psychology articles upfront in the same way as you're saying, get it all out on the table.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  I think that's great.

• 1:09:46Chris Williamson?

  Like, obviously, there is an upper bound of how weird you should be. You can be too weird, right? You could like, maybe don't talk about your farting problem and your athlete's fart on the first date.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:09:56Chris Williamson?

  However, I do think, you know, being you relatively unapologetically you with the intentions that you have and the things that you're interested in is good to get out early.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Especially before you've had sex and before you've gone too far down the line. What do you have to lose?

• 1:10:12Chris Williamson?

  Send the Psychology Today articles before you had sex.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:16Chris Williamson?

  You might not believe me, but this is what peak sleep optimization looks like. Not talking about the night gown, it's just for sex appeal. I'm talking about my eight sleep. The eight sleep pod five comes with a smart cover you throw on your mattress that actively cools or heats each side of the bed up to 20 degrees. And now they've added the world's first temperature regulating duvet and pillowcase. So you've got 360 degree coverage for deep uninterrupted rest. It's like being Walt Disney without the cryogenic chamber.

• 1:10:44Chris Williamson?

  And the racism. Best of all, their autopilot feature learns your sleep patterns and makes adjustments to improve your sleep in real time. It even detects when you're snoring and lifts your head a few inches to help you breathe better. That's why eight sleep has been clinically proven to add up to one hour of quality sleep per night. They have a 30 day sleep trial, so you can buy it and sleep on it for 29 nights. If you don't like it, they will give you your money back. Plus they ship internationally. Right now you can get up to $350 off the pod five by going to the link in the description below. I'm heading to eight sleep.com slash modern wisdom and using the code modern wisdom at checkout. That's E I G H T sleep.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. Okay, so. What do you think about timing? Have you talked to women about how long you should date before engagement,

• 1:11:28Chris Williamson?

  be engaged before marriage, marriage before kids? Is that something that you consider?

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  I mean, I get asked about it and I don't have any hard line about it. I think that it, I think it can be different for different people. And I think the circumstances matter and how old you were when you met and what you're doing and what your background was like and what, how you are as a person. So I don't think there's a hard line.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  For example, I knew my first husband for five years before we married and we were married four years and divorced, no kids. I married my husband, current husband, only husband that I think of, when I think of husband, is a year after I met him. So he asked me six months after we met.

• 1:12:06Chris Williamson?

  Wow.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  Now, I was 29 and he was 33. So I do think it speeds up insofar as you, it's just, but there were a lot of circumstances there that to somebody else that might sound fast, but actually, and it was, but the circumstances were in place that made it make sense.

• 1:12:23Chris Williamson?

  How long was kids?

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  And because I'd been with five years, sorry, with the other one, obviously I had a thing that, well, that didn't work either.

• 1:12:29Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  So in my mind, I'm like, well, I guess.

• 1:12:31Chris Williamson?

  How long were kids after the marriage?

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  I was married at 30, had a daughter at 32 and a son at 35.

• 1:12:37Chris Williamson?

  Yep, cool, okay.

• 1:12:40Chris Williamson?

  All right, so you've got this situation where perhaps a woman is going to have to go to their husband and say.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  I want to stay home.

• 1:12:50Chris Williamson?

  I want to stay at home. I wonder how many men, I think this is probably increasingly true. I wonder how many men are going to feel indignant or not seen in the fact that the lean in, quite masculine energy woman that they go into a relationship with, who maybe they were trying to encourage into her softness and her femininity for a long time and battle against and perhaps subdued some of the desires that they had around, well, you know, she's on her career thing and I guess I'm not, that's not the kind of life that I'm going to have. So they've kind of got into this expectation and maybe even tried to suggest and, and encourage that softness and that femininity to come through,

• 1:13:36Chris Williamson?

  only for them to find out after kids that they were right, but early.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  I haven't had that exact same scenario that you just described come up in coaching anyway, but because usually it's

• 1:13:48Chris Williamson?

  From the woman's side?

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:50Chris Williamson?

  It might not be something that they would freely admit.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  No, but it's

• 1:13:54Chris Williamson?

  I was a lean in boss lady type energy for a long time and he actually asked me to do this a while ago and

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Totally. And I actually, I actually wrote a book called The Alpha Female's Guide to Men in Marriage. I don't know if you saw that. And that's all about how the type A masculinized, hard charging woman can become softer. It's a whole book about how to become soft.

• 1:14:13Chris Williamson?

  Fascinating. What's the, what are the key takeaways from that?

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Gosh.

• 1:14:18Chris Williamson?

  I'm aware it's an entire book to be summarized, but.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  It was 2017, Chris. That was so long ago. Um, no, I, the, the gist of it is there's just a lot of little examples there of ways to soften your approach and delivery so that it's received better. And to understand that all those skills that you mastered and used to be successful at work, which absolutely works.

• 1:14:44Chris Williamson?

  In public.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Really well in the marketplace. Yeah. Are a complete disaster at home. That the skills that you have mastered are the exact opposite skills of what you need to make this work. And that is why so many, I think.

• 1:14:58Chris Williamson?

  Wow. You really write unpopular books.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  I really do.

• 1:15:01Chris Williamson?

  I mean, they sell, but like they're culturally horrendous.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  They're horrendous.

• 1:15:06Chris Williamson?

  You're actually quite toxic. Yeah.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  I really am. It's sort of like, what's wrong with me? You know, like, I, you know, it's

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  most of what I write comes from either personal experience or things that I've seen that

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  either, well, a lot of writers are writing what they're working through themselves, you know? So there's that piece.

• 1:15:28Chris Williamson?

  Research is me search.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Research is me search. And then also just knowing things and you can't unknow them and you hear the lies that are spread and you just can't shut up about it. I mean, that's basically my writing career. And so I'm like, that's not true. And I want to be helpful to people who are busy living their lives, doing their thing. And unless you do this research, you really don't know that what you're being fed is crap. You know, it bugs the hell out of me. So that's, that's my motivation. But anyway, um, yeah, I wrote, so, so that book is basically saying, look, everything you've been taught to do works great in the marketplace. But if you want to be successful in your love life, you need to develop a whole different set of skills because that's not going to work. Because if you've married a masculine, you know, just a man,

• 1:16:13Speaker 01

  you're going to, you know, he doesn't want that. So it's going to, and you don't really, it, you need the yin and the yang, you need the masculine.

• 1:16:21Chris Williamson?

  There's a line in, in your new one, when women think and behave like a man, conflict in a relationship is inevitable.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:27Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Men

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  and women.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  The biggest distinction, I feel like between them, when it comes to communicating is that there needs to be receptivity on the part of the woman.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  That I think is lacking when they're a natural, and I can speak from personal experience with this. If you're a natural arguer, which clearly I am, that's what I do with my work. So this dilly did come from my own space. I always want to say the argument, the other side, you know, and it bugs the hell out of my husband. But that's, I, sometimes that's not necessary or needed in that space.

• 1:17:16Chris Williamson?

  Disagreeability is actually, it's, it's positively correlated with earning professionally.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:17:22Chris Williamson?

  Because it allows you to advocate. I need, I need, I need a pay rise.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:26Chris Williamson?

  You, I deserve a pay rise.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  That interview with Jordan Peterson, oh my God.

• 1:17:31Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Four times I must have seen it, just brilliant. One of my favorite interviews of all time. And I loved it when he said, you know, well, you're disagreeable. It's working great for you here. But that's, that was a great Jordan.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  I mean, but you take that woman in that space, the way she was behaving. Think about everything she was doing in that moment and take her home and her relationship and how that would go over. You know, it just, it just wouldn't. So it's, it's hard. You just, you know, women used to be a lot more naturally feminine and they were encouraged to be, and they were more receptive and they were softer and they dressed like a woman. And all of that's changed. And I'm just saying, you know, it wouldn't hurt to bring a little bit of that back if you want to have peace in your relationship.

• 1:18:11Chris Williamson?

  Jared, can you quickly YouTube? Whitney Cummings, Chris Williamson, a challenge. And it should be a short video. It should be a short, it did like garrillion plays, but Whitney basically explains a high powered comedian lady, lead in Hollywood exec, lots of things. And had got deeper into her 30s and was still dating. So had maybe developed some of that, you know, professional.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:41Chris Williamson?

  Pushiness. And yeah, that top left 5.4 mil, that one. Yep.

• 1:18:48Speaker 04

  I dated a professional athlete, great at what he does. There's not a lot of room for emotion to be involved. It's either true or it's not true, or you're going to get your neck broken. He could date whoever he wanted or sleep with whoever he wanted. And we were like arguing about something and I was like, well, why would you date me? If like, I'm the person you date if you want like a challenge. And he just went, why would any man want a challenge in their relationship? In that moment was like, oh my God, I thought it was like hot to you. I thought it was like what guys wanted. I thought it was like feisty, like I apologize.

• 1:19:18Chris Williamson?

  Well, especially if you're dating somebody that is high performing in any realm, has goals. If you're working that hard in the office, do you really want to come home and be like, right, there's that to do list done. I wonder what fires I need to fight when I step through the front door as well.

• 1:19:31Speaker 04

  I dated that.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  That's, that's the alpha book that I wrote. That's exactly in a nutshell. Like who wants that? That's not going to work. And so there's a lot of this going on in relationships because of this.

• 1:19:41Chris Williamson?

  What's the truth about the financial requirements for raising a kid?

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Oh my. Well, it's really not that expensive in the early years, for one thing. You just need diapers and formula, right? Over the years, the law, you know, if you're looking at the whole 18 years, there's a financial piece to it for sure, but it's also not mandatory to do in a certain fashion. In other words, you don't need to have a lot of money to have children. You need to want to have a family and utilize the monies that you have to make that work. So it's not like, in other words, don't have children because I can't send them to private schools and I can't send them to college and I can't buy them all the nice things. And we can't go to Disney or whatever.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  You don't need all of that, even if it seems like everybody's doing that around you in order to have children. So like in the early years for us, there was no, we didn't live the way we did, say, when they were in high school, when they were early, when they were young. I mean, you live on less, you know, you make those choices and you make trade offs. And that's worth it to you if you value and you, if you value family and you value having a person at home, then, or a mom at home or whatever. It's just a no brainer. Like, it never occurred to me, oh, well, I can't do three vacations a year, so I shouldn't do this, or, oh, I have to send them to private school to be able to do. It just, you work with what you have.

• 1:21:09Chris Williamson?

  Why do you think it's the case, if that's true, if it's not as expensive to raise a child as people think, why?

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  It doesn't have to be.

• 1:21:16Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  It doesn't have to be.

• 1:21:18Chris Williamson?

  Why do so many women, and men too, but primarily women, cite economic requirements and economic instability as one of the main reasons that we can't afford to have a child? Who could have a child in this economy?

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  So I, I have a, I feel like this is the fourth time I've said this. I have a theory that, that social media has been extremely harmful.

• 1:21:42Speaker 01

  In a lot of ways, but especially for people's perspective of what's real and what's not. And believing that

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  A, if someone says it, it must be true. B, if everybody that you're seeing looks like they're saying this and living this way, well, that's the only way to live then, you know, I, this is it, I can't do it. When you're not exposed to that, you have a more insular, which is good, insular in this sense,

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  perspective, just with your own little community and your own family. It's just not, it's just been really harmful, in my, in my opinion, to see all these lives that look like they're the norm and it makes you feel inadequate. And I think that plays into that, believing that you, you have to live this certain way to have children. No, you don't. I mean, you can do things your way. If you can't afford that lifestyle, that doesn't mean you don't have kids. I mean, is the argument that kids are harmed by that? You know, that's another interesting thing. Kids don't need all that.

• 1:22:43Chris Williamson?

  It's interesting. I wonder whether people think that kids would be more harmed by not having three vacations a year or more harmed by not having mama harm.

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  What do you think they would say?

• 1:22:54Chris Williamson?

  That's a kind of a trite example. That's a silly example. I don't think that even the more extreme people, but you know, certainly,

• 1:23:04Chris Williamson?

  I don't know, conversations or I don't know what it is that people think that they need, maybe the size of the house, like certainly housing is a big deal, right? So few people want to raise a family in an apartment. They want to have a house. They maybe want to have a little bit of garden yard to play in with the kids and lots and lots of people are in housing that is not built for kids. Like, do you want to raise a family in a fucking apartment? Really?

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  I mean, if you ask most people, they're going to say no, right? But it doesn't have to be a, as they say these days, forever home either. It can be a starter home. I mean, starter homes are really expensive too these days, but I mean, I mean, you can raise a kid in the first, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight years in a three bedroom house, a two bedroom, small, like 1500 square foot house, if you had to. I mean, I, it's just hard because I would-

• 1:23:54Chris Williamson?

  It's also, look at, sorry for interrupting you, just think about what people are optimizing for.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:58Chris Williamson?

  People are optimizing to be near the coffee shops and like the cute place that they go for brunch with their girls. You go, maybe this is a period, like the kids aren't going to school. So if you're okay to move within the next five years or something, I mean, the market's like a fucking nightmare. At least in Austin, Austin's, you seen Austin's market, Jared? It's like two or three times as many sellers as there are buyers. It's like the craziest sex ratio in history. Anyway, that, that's one of the things that people optimize for, that they probably wouldn't want to not. But you go, hey, if you move, fuck me, if you're prepared to get 30 minutes outside of Austin, you can get a lot of house, like a shit ton of house for your money.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  Exactly. Bingo. So again, it's just be willing to go out 30 minutes more. There's so many options that aren't entertained if it's not exactly what you envision or want.

• 1:24:49Chris Williamson?

  From the start.

• 1:24:49Speaker 01

  So much about wanting what you want right now, instead of, there's a stepping stone to that. And that, a lot of that has to do with, yes, inflated expectations for sure. Again, social media plays a role into that. But also the longer you live without getting married and having kids, going back to what we were saying before.

• 1:25:06Chris Williamson?

  The greater your lifestyle inflation.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:25:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  You're making it really hard on yourself, in my opinion, actually, doing it that way. Because everything looks harder in some ways. We've always said that's the thing you're supposed to do. For decades, we've been saying, wait, wait, wait, do everything in your 30s. You know, there's just this whole theory, philosophy around that, that I don't agree with. But that's the philosophy and it's been touted for a long time now. But again, nobody ever talked about the flip side of that, which is what we're talking about, is you're getting used to this certain life.

• 1:25:34Chris Williamson?

  Hugely, yeah. I mean, the opportunity to grow, to become accustomed to a particular type of life. It, it, so much of what we're dealing with at the moment is people getting what they want, not what they need. And it's not what they want, it's what they think they want. And puppeted by, and this is true for all of us, right? Like we're memetic social creatures, like it's the way that it works. A friend gave me a really interesting thought experiment that kind of relates to the, kids might be better off having three holidays a year than having mom at home or something like that, that- Imagine that you had a situation where two mums decided that they were going to start up a solo business looking after children. So they were going to become nannies.

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:26:18Chris Williamson?

  And each mother was going to look after the other's child and pay each other the exact same amount for it. Or the mother would stay at home and just look after their own. In one of these, she's a self-starting business person. That is praised and has a lot going on, my friend's situation. And in the other, they're just a mum. And the, it's such a cool example because it kind of shows the expectation. Or like if it was two kids, no one would be a full-time nanny for one kid with one kid. But to do it for two or to do it for three, you go, well, I can fund my childcare. With me doing childcare. And it's just, I don't know, I.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Sorry, go ahead.

• 1:26:58Chris Williamson?

  I'm just aware that I'm horribly on the outside pissing inside of this tent, but like.

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  What sense does that make? That's basic. What sense does what you were just describing me?

• 1:27:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, of course. Look, I'm allowed to comment on stuff. I'm sat in the stands throwing, hurling mud and muck at people that are trying to make this work. I am trying to be very empathetic about it.

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  But it really differentiates. I mean, again, that's exactly something you would learn about somebody when you're dating them, right? Are you doing this because this is what you value? In other words, basically, it comes down to that is what do you value? What do you want? If the most important thing to you is being present in your children's life and building that relationship and being responsible for that person's character and development and all the rest. I don't care about any money or any other things. Like that's, that's it. That's the focus. The person who has to have the paycheck in order to feel good is going to have a different approach to all these decisions, these family decisions that you're making with her.

• 1:28:01Chris Williamson?

  And so much of it is the inertia, it's the momentum that you've had of what did my friends value? What was my lifestyle like when I was younger? What did I use social media in order to be able to advertise online? Like, I'm not going to be able to talk about my travels anymore. I'm not going to be able to. Show where we're going for trips. I'm not going to be able to wear the outfits and go out. There's a lot of costs in the sort of marketplace that people are inhabiting. Lots of costs.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  There are a lot of costs.

• 1:28:33Chris Williamson?

  And there are costs, and this is, I think, important. There are a lot of costs that women pay that the men don't. Like, the guys can still, six months into baby, the guys can still go out and see their friends and go and watch the game on a weekend. But that's going to be much, that's going to be like, oh, my God, this is the first time in six months I've been able to go out.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:53Chris Williamson?

  For mum. That's not going to be the same. There are requirements and lifestyle sacrifices that women have to make that men don't. And that being that social media and the current currency is attention and status.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  Right. Well.

• 1:29:07Chris Williamson?

  That's a big hit to what the rest of the world valued you for.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  The latter being the most important piece of that because there's so much opportunity for growth and learning about this whole piece of the world that you've turned your mind away from, that you're going to learn by not getting a paycheck and caregiving. And throwing yourself into this space that's so unfamiliar to you and scary at first. But the things that I hear from people who have done that is, oh, my God, I mean, I wouldn't have changed that. Like you said, that you said, how many people, how many women would change their mind?

• 1:29:46Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. The growth is there, but we just don't, again, we don't value it and we're not allowed to talk about it.

• 1:29:54Chris Williamson?

  And you don't advertise it in the same way.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  No. So all they hear are the costs. There's this whole other piece that's, that's missing. I mean, there, there really isn't any way to explain to somebody when you're home with a two-year-old, let's say, and they're climbing the steps one at a time, and you've already been home and you're bonding and you're doing the attachment, you know, it's all, it's all in place. And she or he is two years old and he's climbing steps for the first time and you're, of course, behind him, so he doesn't fall. And each time he climbs to the next step, he'll turn around and see if you're there. Then he'll go back and then he'll take the next step. And he turns around to see if you're there.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  And by the time it's done, you have just created a human in that little space there of trust that is going to carry them.

• 1:30:43Speaker 01

  The rest of their life. And those are the things that are intangible and that nobody talks about. And you have to actually do it to see it. And I just want people to know about it before so they understand what what's really going on there.

• 1:30:56Chris Williamson?

  But do you think the lessons are that men and women are told about the value of money versus time at home?

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  I don't think there's any attention paid to

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  the value or the significance of time at home. I think there is only focus on money. I don't.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  I mean, we have never been more materialistic ever in history than we are today. And

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  once you get on that treadmill, I guess, it's you're just it's almost it's like autopilot. You just don't even realize there's a whole world outside of you. It's called life, right? Life that doesn't, you know, chores, errands, raising children, cooking. There's just this whole world that has nothing to do with earning money that is like life. It's the stuff life is made of. Somebody's got to do it, which sounds like it's a bad thing to do. But A, somebody has to do it, yes, but also somebody gets to do it. You know, and and with no attention on that.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  I don't think that people even

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  recognize it as there. And then when they do it, they get resentful about it because they're so focused on trying to make money that this all this other stuff I just described is getting in the way of their path that they're on. And it's like, that's where the resentment's coming in. But this is actually a job in and of itself, creating a home, raising children, doing errands, cooking. I mean, cooking is a subject in and of itself because we're fast food nation now and people are overweight. And they're like, how did I get this way? And it's like, because no one's in the kitchen cooking anymore. It's so daunting when you're constantly working. No one's going to cook at the end of a 10 hour workday. Nobody, that's when it all started to go downhill, when nobody was home to cook.

• 1:32:55Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  The obesity, the childhood obesity, which tripled in the last 50 years, happened at the same time mothers left the home en masse. Because what do you, who do you think was cooking before? When we, before, when we didn't have the obesity crisis? Why was that? People talk about chemicals and oils, and that's all fine and great, but the truth is, there was a mom in a kitchen cooking.

• 1:33:19Chris Williamson?

  Well, calories are king, right? If you know what you've put into your food, regardless of the seed oils.

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  It's calories in, calories out.

• 1:33:27Chris Williamson?

  Correct.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:28Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. And if the kids are getting takeout on the way home.

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. It's the lifestyle. It's a lifestyle switch that has happened, that has created all these other problems.

• 1:33:38Chris Williamson?

  What do you think about, there's a big debate around the, the double shift for women, the sort of share of housework between men and women? Every, every, every question, every question that I ask you, it seems like it kind of comes with, it pains you.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  I'm sorry. It's just, um, sometimes you're asking me some things that I haven't actually talked about or thought about a while, but I've written about extensively, so I just have to pull it out of my mind.

• 1:34:05Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  Full-time motherhood includes all of those things that people are now fighting about between each other, husbands and wives or couples, about who does more or whatever. If you have somebody at home raising children, those things that we're talking about are going to naturally be part of that lifestyle of raising children. So for example, when I was home and my husband was working, I would do more child, I would do more, um, household chores because I'm there. I'm physically home-based and there. So I did the grocery shopping, I did the cooking. He would come home and do the cleaning. He did plenty. He changed diapers, he cleaned, he did all, all he could do on top of his full-time job. But at no point did I fight with him or play tit for tat about who's doing more, because

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  you didn't have to, because once you've divided it up that way, it's kind of obvious. That stuff only came into play when women started working full-time too, and now you've got both people doing it. And men and women don't respond to the home stuff in the same way. So women think men are supposed to respond the way they would respond. But again, my, if, if you come with the argument that men and women aren't the same interchangeable, it makes perfect sense. But to them, it's, well, what do you mean we're equal? So I should do this and you should do this. He's going to step over the sock maybe because he doesn't see it or he doesn't care about it. It's not because he thinks you're supposed to pick it up. That's not the point. It's just, he doesn't care and you care. And women care more about the home because they're nesters. They're nesters by nature, even if they work.

• 1:35:39Chris Williamson?

  There's a cool study that's done that women's level of sexual arousal, based on how tidy the house is, that basically if

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  I mean, if it's a man.

• 1:35:52Chris Williamson?

  If there's not orderliness around the house, then they can sometimes struggle to switch off.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:35:58Chris Williamson?

  So that's being irritated by the sock is a perfect example of that. I don't know how many socks it takes to turn off your horniness. But maybe not many for some women. Maybe some women are more sock sensitive than others.

• 1:36:09Chris Williamson?

  My point being that there's

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:11Chris Williamson?

  The same is not true for a man.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 1:36:14Chris Williamson?

  On average, let's say. There's another great story I saw on, on Twitter. It was so good. A woman had asked the man to do the dishes while she was out. And she came back to find that he'd grouted the shower. He'd like re-grouted the shower. So he'd gone in and fixed all in between all of the tiles and he'd done this seal stuff. And he came back and was like,

• 1:36:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm proud.

• 1:36:34Chris Williamson?

  Like so happy for it. And she was mad at him.

• 1:36:37Speaker 01

  Because he didn't do the

• 1:36:37Chris Williamson?

  Because he didn't do the dishes. And it kind of speaks to this. There are certain tasks and roles that aren't necessarily seen by each other.

• 1:36:48Speaker 01

  As important.

• 1:36:49Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  Yes. A hundred percent that is.

• 1:36:51Chris Williamson?

  Or aren't even noticed. Like, do you think that, how, how often do you think she thought about the grouting in the shower?

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  Never.

• 1:36:57Chris Williamson?

  Or the fact that the oil in the car hadn't been changed?

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  No, never. So, and that's, that's a big difference between men and women. And that's why the playing tit for tat is so bad. And going back to what you just said about a woman not being able to overlook the sock. A great, I always tell men to like, if they, well, you can't do this on any kind of regular basis, I guess. But if you were to move a wife from the home and get her in a hotel room, let's say, or just, I don't know, somewhere else that's not the home, sexually, I'm talking about, she's going to be able to be more receptive because she doesn't have to tune out everything in her midst, which is what you were getting at.

• 1:37:29Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  That needs to be done in the home. She's totally in sexual mode because, oh, I'm in a hotel room, or, oh, I'm at a party, or whatever it is you're taking her to, is away from that drudgery, which pulls away from her sexual desire because you want to go get to that stuff.

• 1:37:44Chris Williamson?

  Jared, how old's your kid? Eight months. Eight months. Okay. Well, there's your hack, dude. If you need to, if you need to pipe it a bit more.

• 1:37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:52Chris Williamson?

  You just, hey darling, I've got us an evening in a hotel and an nanny.

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  Locally, locally, you know, yeah.

• 1:37:57Chris Williamson?

  Sick.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  Report back to me.

• 1:38:03Chris Williamson?

  I, there's a, an interesting bit of like, old school productivity bro advice, which is you shouldn't have your desk inside of your bedroom. There should be a separation of work and sleep.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:13Chris Williamson?

  Because, for the exact same reason. But what's interesting here is, the stay-at-home mum's office is the house.

• 1:38:24Chris Williamson?

  So, that means, hey, if you're asking me to do something that is different in, in energy to what I do here typically, that might be a bit hard.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, because a woman doesn't feel sexy when she's, you know, cleaning the kitchen. That's not a sexual.

• 1:38:40Chris Williamson?

  Depends what outfit you're in. Okay, daycare. What do you think about daycare?

• 1:38:54Chris Williamson?

  It's a necessary evil for many people. They think it's a necessary evil. They've got work, they can't be at home with their kids, the maternity leave that everybody, I think, thinks should be given, isn't there? What do you think about daycare?

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  Daycare was at one ti, you know, daycare was originally a head start program. And it was just initially designed for low-income families and/or one-income families who literally had no choice because mum had to go to work.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  When it opened up, which it did over time, to just anybody who wanted to use it just because, regardless of their financial circumstances, that's when it ballooned and became eventually over time, just a way of life. Like it just normal. And one of the things that's been really interesting is watching, even like I told you, I started this 25 years ago when I was first writing about this. That was at a time when the mommy wars were all raging. And it was kind of understood that you had to defend your, your choice of using daycare if you were using it. Like, people were writing about it. Because it was instinctively understood that that was not good. It was understood. Fast forward

• 1:40:02Speaker 01

  25 years, and I have noticed, people are talking about it like they're taking a shower, dropping off their two-year-old in daycare, or one-year-old, or whatever, or six-week-old, literally like it's nothing. And I look at that, and I see what's happened, and I, this is not, this person literally has no idea that daycare is bad. No clue. So you can't, it's, it's almost like you can't blame her per se, because she just doesn't know what she doesn't know. And I truly believe that's where young moms are today. They really have no idea. Daycare is the last place that, that littles belong. Littles belong at home, with their mom, if not with mom, with dad, if not with dad, then grandma, if not with

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  grandma, nanny, if not with a nanny, a neighborhood, small. I mean, daycare is the bottom of the bottom. And

• 1:40:55Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  It's, the reason why is it's so giant. It's so un, it's, um, it's too big, number one, and you have so much turnover, and in and out of people coming and going, that the attachment that you are trying to replace for what they need in those early years, that can only be really done with one-on-one person, it can't be had in an environment like that. They, it's way too stressful. There is, I mean,

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  I think if people go into daycares, really go into them and see what goes on, they'd have a better understanding of what it really looks like. But it's like you're lined up, like you're one of a bunch of people and you're just, it's a pecking order, you know? You're a part of a machine almost. There's no, all those needs that need to be met in the early years can't possibly be met in an institutional environment like that. I mean, the sleep alone, I mean, babies need sleep and they need to be on a schedule and they need quiet and they need peace and they need to be cared for in a way that is not possible to replicate in a daycare center.

• 1:42:12Chris Williamson?

  Because one kid is awake and crying or making noise while another is trying to sleep?

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  As an example, yes. Or 10 people are. And how can you sleep with 10 people? You know? Or if you're hungry, you're not necessarily going to be fed until they can get to you. Or you start to attach yourself to somebody and then that person goes into another room and gets moved or he or she leaves, she, usually she, leaves the building altogether after you've started to develop an attachment. And then the exhaustion, the mere exhaustion, so all those tears. And by the way, just to clarify, there's a big difference between a couple of hours in an environment like that and 10 hours for a one-year-old, let's say. And people don't delineate or talk about that. There's a massive difference. I mean, a baby can handle an hour or two apart or even in an environment like that

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  temporarily if they know that they're immediately, you know, going back to mom. But 10 hours being left there, eight hours or whatever, is is awful. It's just bad.

• 1:43:12Chris Williamson?

  I posted a couple of clips with Erica talking about, talking about daycare. Some of the interesting sentiments that came back from mums are things like, my kid loves going to daycare. He can't wait. He wants to run out of the car or like he's always really happy and smiley when I drop him off at daycare. What do you think about that?

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  So there are many things that occur in the drop off pickup scenario with a mom and a baby. I mean, nine out of 10 times, when you first introduce a baby to that environment, you're going to get tears. Actually, both, both, both people are crying usually, both mom and the baby. And you'll hear story after, or I have anyway, of story after story of moms dropping them off for the first time. And hysterical all the way to work. I mean, just crying, it was horrible, horrible, horrible, which to me is a signal that something's gone wrong. This is not good. This is not normal. The baby's crying, you're crying. That's something you should pay attention to. That's something you should push away, which is what society wants you to do is push it away.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  It's okay, he'll be fine. And what that baby does or child does in trying to get his needs met and seeing that they're no longer going to be mad. They just sort of stop and give up and they're not crying for that moment. And so you think they're fine, but actually they just sort of, well, give up because nobody tended to their needs. That doesn't mean they're fine. It just means they're just quiet. In fact, the quiet ones, sometimes you need to worry about more.

• 1:44:45Chris Williamson?

  This was actively a lady or maybe a few ladies saying, um, they love it. Like they, they, they seem actively positive to be going there when I drop them off.

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and they, well, that would be an older child, not a baby.

• 1:44:57Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like a three or four year old, three or four. Yeah. And by three, you're fine. By three, you're, you can go into preschool. But again, um, so let's say you have a three year old and you are having them in daycare 10 hours a day or something, which is different from preschool, which is just a couple of hours in the morning, um, which is perfectly age appropriate for a three year old.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  There are a lot of repercussions that are also not talked about that may not come in the form of tears.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  And that is the exhaustion piece because you should really still be napping at that point. So they're really, really tired and overstimulated from this environment. And then the, the child that you're receiving at the end of the day, that's going to bleed over into the rest of the night with the discipline that you're trying to instill because at that point they're so tired. Like I always like to, it's just pointless to even attempt to discipline a, a child who is so tired, he's out of his skin. He can't even think straight. He's like drunk. So don't even attempt anything. You just have to put him to bed, basically. So there's a huge piece of sleep deprivation that is also not discussed with those early

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  years in long care that bleeds over into the home and your ability to parent properly and well, because of that exhaustion piece. Or you have to put him to bed right away because they're so tired. And so then you don't see him. Then there's that.

• 1:46:22Chris Williamson?

  What's an alternative to daycare? Some, some households are unable to survive on a single person's income. Mum needs to get back to work at some point, or mum wants to get back to work at some point.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Extend it as long as you possibly can before you do that and exhaust every possible means of care that is not group care in that way.

• 1:46:48Chris Williamson?

  So what, what are some of your favorite?

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  That's family members, that's, um, uh, um, tag teaming. Some people tag team with their husbands. That's another thing. Some people can do that depending on your job situation where one's in and one's out. It's not great for the marriage, but if you do it temporary because you don't see each other, but you could get away with it temporarily. And I've known people who have done that. One's working days, one's working nights. So someone's always with, at home. That's one thing. Um, but your neighbors or your friends, like trading off with your friends. So maybe your baby stays with your friend while you're working and then her baby's with you. So it's just you and two, your, your kid and your friend's

• 1:47:20Chris Williamson?

  kid. Two on one.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:21Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:22Speaker 01

  The smaller, the better.

• 1:47:23Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Yeah. I mean, look, uh, one of the most interesting conversations I had, there's a company called Athena that make virtual assistants. And I had the, the founder and CEO on, and I was saying that having a virtual assistant or an assistant at all is wonderful, but like, how many people have got access to that? That's, that's not that realistic. He said, well, there's lots of ways that you can basically get the exact same function of that. Just by using your friends and one of his examples was childcare.

• 1:47:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:54Chris Williamson?

  He says, if you want to work one day a week or two days a week.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:59Chris Williamson?

  You only need one other mum.

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  Yes, to.

• 1:48:01Chris Williamson?

  To alternate. Yeah, exactly. And like one on two or one on three, maybe like you can probably get away with that. You can come to our house if, or you can go to yours and then, hey, if we organize our working schedules, you could get two days a week of workout. And look, I mean, the days when you're going to be at home outnumbered two to one or three to one by kids. Like, that's also going to be a pretty like challenging day. But it means that you aren't having to do the daycare thing. It's free.

• 1:48:28Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:28Chris Williamson?

  And you've got two day or two and a half, you know? Okay, you do half of Wednesday and Thursday, Friday, and I'll do Monday, Tuesday and half of Wednesday.

• 1:48:36Speaker 01

  I'm a big believer that necessity is the mother of invention. And if the daycare system, and it is a system, I mean, it is a, what's the word I'm looking for? It's a, well, I'm blanking on the name, but if it weren't there as an option.

• 1:48:53Chris Williamson?

  People would figure it out.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  People would figure it out. They had to back in the day. As I said, we had a Head Start program. We had a thing in place for truly, truly, truly, truly needy families. Of course, there's a lot more needy families today than there was 50 years ago. But you, you just, you, what are you going to do if it's not there? You know, if something isn't there, you go to the next thing and you, you figure it out. I, I believe that. I think it's just become, my issue is more that it's become so normalized that we're not even allowed to talk about the fact that the thing that looks so normal actually is really bad. That's my issue. I just want to be able to talk openly and say, actually, this isn't good. And here's why. So that they know, because truly, I believe people don't know. I believe it's come to that.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  There was a time when people knew instinctively this was not, and they could talk about it, but now.

• 1:49:41Chris Williamson?

  What's the most compelling reason that you give to some, a mum who feels like daycare is fine, but you think, hey, this is something that you should know?

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  Um, that.

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  The most important thing for a child in the first three years of life is to develop the intangibles of love and trust that will then carry them into their own adult relationships later on. So that if they do not become attached to you in those early years, or to your singular alternative person, or whatever, that will stay with them for life. And it will show up in their relationships later on. And that's, that's real. I mean, like, that's a real thing. And it's, I think, surprising for a lot of people. They just don't know about that.

• 1:50:32Chris Williamson?

  It's an interesting duality. Another one of those paradoxes that we were talking about earlier on. A lot of people are into therapy. A lot of people love books like Attached by Amel Levine, or Jessica Baum's book. Amel has got a new one out called Secure.

• 1:50:47Speaker 01

  They're on my home. Yeah.

• 1:50:50Chris Williamson?

  Lots of people are very informed on the attachment literature. And a lot of people that are going to therapy are also understanding the fact that, hey, my parents maybe didn't care for me in the manner that would have been optimal to give me secure attachment. And I'm now having to unpick and unwind some of these things. Well, what are those? Well, you know, they didn't hold me when I needed it. They didn't see my needs without me asking. They weren't understanding. I didn't feel safe and secure. There wasn't consistency, availability, reliability, responsiveness, and predictability, like the five elements of secure attachment. Those things weren't there.

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  But, and yet, yeah. Let's not talk about this thing.

• 1:51:26Chris Williamson?

  I can pay that forward. It's like, I'm gonna go to therapy to unpick the patterns from the past because I don't want my kid to inherit my bad patterns. But because of the situation that I've constructed, or that I need to, or feel like I need to, from education and employment and lifestyle demands, I am now potentially just recreating the thing. Not only recreating the thing that happened to me and I don't want, but that I'm actively trying to unpick in an attempt to not pass down. And this is where, this is like, why I think that.

• 1:52:03Chris Williamson?

  When it's said in a sober way, in a calm way, in a gentle way that accepts the challenges and the fucking like really odd economic and cultural situation that young women find themselves in now, that it should be something that if it's, if what you're saying is heard properly for what it's supposed to be, it should be pretty well received because look at how fucking hard you're working in therapy. Why? Well, because you want to be happy yourself and you don't want to be, you know, fucking puppeted by these patterns and stuff like that. But because you don't want to pass it down to your future kids too. Like you're really, really working hard at this thing. You're just working hard at it within the confines, this model that exists.

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  Yes, right.

• 1:52:47Chris Williamson?

  That these are the rules that you play. Well, you earn lots of money to have the therapy so that you cannot pass the patterns on to your kids. But that means that they've got, you can't afford to stay at home because you need to.

• 1:52:58Speaker 01

  So literally, that's the reason I wrote How to Build a Better Life, which is the, my most recent book. And it was, it's for women who want to prioritize marriage and love and family, really, like to have that be the core of their life. And that requires starting early to make the decisions that we've talked about. If you do that, all this stuff doesn't, it ceases to exist. That's kind of like the whole point, you know, like if you create this life that's counter-cultural and not like the way you've been taught to do it, you wouldn't end up in this boat of worrying about repeating the patterns of, like your attachment issues. If it's circled back and understood that daycare is going

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  to create that, then you can stop that in its tracks before it starts.

• 1:53:46Chris Williamson?

  Or at the very least, it's not going to make it better.

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So anyway, I just, that's, there's just a whole different way to do life, I guess is my point. And that's why I wrote that. And it's, it's, it's there for the taking, but you've got to be presented with the information and you've got to have people willing to talk about it because it's so taboo to talk about.

• 1:54:06Chris Williamson?

  Well, you've got a line, live your life, not theirs.

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that was the end of that book and it was essentially saying, you're, if you're building a life based on what you're told you're supposed to do, even if it goes against what you might really want. And sometimes you're all the way in before you know that, that's true. You know, you're going to be unhappy. You have to live, you have to be satisfied. You have to know what you want, know what you value, build a life that has that as its core and not worry about everybody else's and which is so, so hard with so, I'm going back to social media today. I, we didn't have this, you know, social media is new in my, I'm 58. So I don't know. How long has social media been around? When my kids were little, it didn't exist. So I think it was, they were in high school before.

• 1:54:56Chris Williamson?

  Facebook's about 20 years. Yeah.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  They were in high school by then. So like being raised, just seeing all these images and seeing how other people are living, people that, what do you even care about these other people? They don't even know them, you know, or they live across the world. But I certainly can understand when you're young, you're going to see it and be like, I need that. And then your life's going to look terrible in comparison because they've got that, but, but they don't have what you have either. So you, you have to have perspective on it. So I think social media has been really, really hard.

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  Really destructive, actually, for this concept of loving your life and not worrying about theirs. But you really have to keep your eye on the ball to be happy or you're going to be sucked into this other space.

• 1:55:44Chris Williamson?

  What do you wish more young women knew? If you were able to put a billboard up that all young women would see on their way to work. What do you wish you'd be able to tell them?

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  Nothing in your life is going to compare to the. Euphoria and the satisfaction and the meaning of having a baby. And raising that baby. And having a family and having that sense of security and peace when the world's going batty around you and you just have your little home that you've created. And nothing you do and no amount of money you're going to make is ever going to compare. But you don't know that yet. But I'll put my money on it. Let's put it that way. So if I'm wrong, what's the worst that's happened? You know, I've I'm wrong. And then.

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  The point is that you have choices. If you. If you believe me and you set up your life that way, you will have choices. And that's where I want you to be.

• 1:56:47Chris Williamson?

  Heck yeah. Suzanne Venker, ladies and gentlemen. Why should people go to keep up to date with everything you're doing?

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  Well, they can go to SuzanneVenker.com and I'm mainly on Substack these days, but everything is at SuzanneVenker.com.

• 1:56:58Chris Williamson?

  Heck yeah. I appreciate you. Thank you for sticking your neck out and touching every third rail in existence.

• 1:57:04Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:57:04Chris Williamson?

  All right. See you next time, everyone.

• 1:57:07Speaker 05

  They're running a cover two defense. But you're running to get game day deals on Uber Eats. Keep everyone at tonight's watch party fed with deals from your go to restaurants. Or stock up with deals on your favorite snacks and groceries. Whatever the occasion, get game day deals on Uber Eats all season long. It's not football without food. Uber Eats. Order now. Terms apply. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.