Revisiting Ashley Judd: Grief, Love and Naomi

When Naomi Judd died by suicide in 2022, after a long struggle with mental illness, her daughter Ashley found her. In this deeply moving, revealing, and insightful conversation Ashley Judd talks about the trauma she has worked hard to face, the grief she now feels, and how her mother’s spirit is still very much alive in her life. Visit the All There Is online grief community at cnn.com/allthereisonline and watch the video version on YouTube. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Anderson Cooper?

  Welcome to All There Is. I'm Anderson Cooper. I'm on vacation this week with my kids, and I'll be celebrating Thanksgiving. I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but after my brother Carter died, my mom and I stopped recognizing holidays. Christmas, Thanksgiving, it was all just too painful. I know for many of you listening right now, this week may be tough. I just want you to know that you're not the only one who feels that way. I'm going to be enjoying being with my kids this week, but any holiday is also a reminder of the people I love who aren't here. I'll have an all-new episode of the podcast next week. What follows is an episode from last season. It's my interview with Ashley Judd. Let's get started.

• 1:18Anderson Cooper?

  "The Past Is Never Dead, It's Not Even Past." William Faulkner wrote that in his novel Requiem for a Nun, and my mom liked to quote it a lot. I found an addendum of sorts to it online recently, a quote by a writer named Greg Isles from his book, The Quiet Game. I want to read it to you because I think it speaks to grief in a powerful way. Isles wrote, "Faulkner said, 'The past is never dead, it's not even past. All of us labor in webs spun long before we were born, webs of heredity and environment, of desire and consequence, of history and eternity. Haunted by wrong turns and roads not taken,

• 1:59Anderson Cooper?

  we pursue images perceived as new, but whose providence dates to the dim dramas of childhood, which are themselves but ripples of consequence echoing down the generations. The quotidian demands of life distract from this resonance of images and events, but some of us feel it always."

• 2:19Anderson Cooper?

  The past has felt especially present to me these last few weeks. Perhaps it's because of the holidays I've so long avoided, or the anniversary of my dad's death last Friday. But the dim dramas of my childhood have been playing out very brightly in my mind. The grief I've so long buried is increasingly, insistently trying to make itself known to me. I just don't know if I'm ready to welcome it.

• 2:46Anderson Cooper?

  I'm not sure what's more embarrassing, my desire to weep, or my continued difficulty in doing so.

• 2:54Anderson Cooper?

  This is All There Is with me, Anderson Cooper.

• 2:59Anderson Cooper?

  My guest on the podcast is Ashley Judd. But before we start, I want to mention that we're going to be discussing the death of Ashley's mom, singer Naomi Judd, who died by suicide. If you or someone you love is struggling, help is available. In the US, you can call or text the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988.

• 3:20Anderson Cooper?

  We'll get started in a moment.

• 3:27Anderson Cooper?

  Welcome back to All There Is. Ashley Judd is an actress, author, activist, and mental health advocate. She's also the daughter of Naomi Judd and sister of Wynonna. Naomi and Wynonna were one of the most successful country music acts in history, with a string of hits and multiple Grammy and Country Music Association awards. Naomi Judd struggled with physical and mental health issues for years. And in April 2022, one day before she and Wynonna were due to be inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame, Naomi Judd died by suicide. She was 76 years old. Ashley Judd joins me now.

• 4:06Anderson Cooper?

  Would it be OK if I played a little bit of one of her songs?

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Oh, please do.

• 4:11Anderson Cooper?

  This is "Love Can Build a Bridge." This is actually the last performance that she did with your sister, April 11, 2022, and she died on April 30.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  I've always been so proud of the music. I've always loved the music.

• 4:56Anderson Cooper?

  Has grief been what you expected it would be like?

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Well, I've had several journeys with grief, and each has been distinct, unique, and also universal. So my grief journey started as a child because I played the role of the lost child in my family system growing up. And so when I came into recovery in 2006, what they said is that I had unresolved childhood grief. That child grief is such a deep, hollow ache. And when I started to cry, it felt like it was those bottomless tears to which there was no end. And I wondered if I could die from crying, but I realized it's the not crying that will kill me. It's the not crying that will kill me.

• 5:43Anderson Cooper?

  I still find it very hard to allow myself to cry, but I feel like there is a well of tears, even now as I'm speaking to you, just beneath the surface that could very easily explode.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  Yes. I identify with that. And it comes in these waves, and it has so many different characteristics. You know, one of the things that I want to offer is that I have learned how to hold my own hand in my crying. And there is a place where trauma and grief and transcendence meet, and I call it the braid.

• 6:14Anderson Cooper?

  The braid?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, that they all go together, and there's this beautiful melding. But I believe I have a higher power who suffers with me that's just fundamental to the God of my understanding. And so I tried to go to this place where God was with me. And so all of that was touching this transcendence simultaneously.

• 6:36Anderson Cooper?

  You have said, "I was powerless over my childhood. The survival strategies I developed made my adult life unmanageable." That is completely what I have now realized, that all the things that I developed to get through my childhood, all the strategies I developed of keeping things inside, doing everything myself, never asking anybody for help or advice, it has made my adult life unmanageable. These are strategies which have gotten me this far, but they are keeping me stuck in this middle ground of not experiencing real grief, but also not experiencing real joy, because I can't allow myself to experience any strong emotion.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  And that line is borrowed from a piece of very wise recovery literature, and I have to acknowledge that those survival strategies were really brilliant. You know, they were creative and adaptive and resilient, and they got me through things that otherwise I perhaps wouldn't have made it through. And then, as an adult, I'm so conditioned to rely on those strategies, but I can learn new ways, and I can separate out the things for which as a child I was not responsible and I was vulnerable and needy and defenseless.

• 7:48Anderson Cooper?

  I've heard from so many listeners who have unresolved grief or unprocessed grief. Do you still feel like that little girl is inside you? That that little girl is the person who reacts in a crisis situation first?

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yes, and I think that developing a relationship with the child who's always alive inside of us is a joy and a delight and terrifying, and sometimes I wish she would just shut up and go away and mind her own business and get off my back and not be so needy. And then also, she's my responsibility. We have to take care of that part of us, because no one else will. And when it's time for us to die and we take those final last steps, we take them with all the parts of ourselves, and our loved ones who may be by our side, or maybe not, can only go so far with us, and then it is truly down to the God within us, who is in us like butter is in milk.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  It's the parts of us that have been with us inside of ourselves and God, and that is it. And if we've abandoned those parts, we have abandoned ourselves.

• 8:53Anderson Cooper?

  Your childhood, growing up, was... You wrote about childhood rape, about neglect, about sexual abuse by a male relative. There were two years where you were living alone while your mom and your sister were on tour.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  And then there were my grandparents who saved my life because I lived with them in the summertime where I was fed and watered and had a routine, and they kept me going. It was ghastly and it was lonely. But I also acknowledged there was a lot of love in my family. It just hurt, right? It didn't work particularly well and it hurt. But I also had these two sets of grandparents with whom I lived in Appalachia. And they were my high holy altar of safety.

• 9:34Anderson Cooper?

  So do you feel like you have been grieving for much of your life?

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Yes, and I think that I'm grief literate now. And grief and I are on pretty good terms. That doesn't mean I get a pass. It doesn't mean that there's a shortcut, but there's a shorthand. And we should say that there's a difference between trauma and grief, right? Because the trauma is intrusive and comes up unbidden. We don't have any control over it. It's a memory that's not processed and that lives free in the brain, bouncing around and seizes us beyond our control. And grief is a natural, organic, human process that has natural stages that self-resolve over time.

• 10:16Anderson Cooper?

  The death of your mom, how is that grief different than grief you had experienced throughout your life?

• 10:23Speaker 02

  That's a really good question, Anderson, because I think that the death of a parent is something for which we, at least conceptually, have some kind of preparation. And I also knew that she was walking with mental illness and that her brain hurt and that she was suffering. But that didn't necessarily prepare me. My mother's death was traumatic and unexpected because it was death by suicide. And I found her. And so it had this calamitous dynamic. My grief was...

• 11:05Speaker 02

  In lockstep with trauma because of the manner of her death and the fact that I found her. And so what I needed to do first was like vomit, you know. Just I held my mother as she was dying. It was a pietà. So I but and then there was there was, you know, people need to be aware that there's that it's a bit of a graphic story. And there was blood and I just needed to like process the fact that I was with my mother's blood. You know, I'm so glad I was there because even when I walked in that room and I saw that she had harmed herself, the first thing out of my mouth was, Mama, I see how much you've been suffering.

• 11:49Anderson Cooper?

  You said that to her?

• 11:50Speaker 02

  And it is OK. It is OK to go. It's OK to go. I am here. It is OK to let go. I love you. Go see your daddy. Go see Papa Judd. Go be with your people.

• 12:11Anderson Cooper?

  And she heard you?

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Oh, she heard me. And I just got in the bed with her and held her and talked to her and said, let it all go. Be free. All was forgiven long ago. All was forgiven long ago. Leave it all here. Take nothing with you. Just be free.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  And I did that for what I know what it was, 14, 15 minutes. Just held her.

• 12:42Anderson Cooper?

  It's an extraordinary blessing that you were able to do that.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Oh, it was. You know, she wrote this beautiful song in 1975 about how we just found the notebook in which she has it written down in her handwriting, about how I picked her for my human life and she birthed me. And then the song goes on to say, when I hold her ashes in my hand and I let them go, I'm to carry on because my spirit is bright inside of me.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  And oh, when I read that, I wept. I wept and I wept.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  And it was like this blessing, this she birthed me and I got to midwife her home. And the exquisite symmetry of that, I'm so thankful I was there.

• 13:40Anderson Cooper?

  Even knowing the trauma you would go through, you still were glad?

• 13:44Speaker 02

  You know, with the healing arts that are available and my ability to access them and my willingness to do it, it was a very small price to pay.

• 13:53Anderson Cooper?

  You said that in the fall of 2022, you began to have nightmares and you began to weep in your sleep and have intrusive thoughts. How long did that go on for?

• 14:05Speaker 02

  You know, the truth is, I had to work my ass off. It took work. I kept a commitment. I went to the rainforest in Central Africa in June. Mom died on the 30th of April and my partner has a vulnerable research camp in a very remote part of the Congo and with UNFPA, for whom I serve as goodwill ambassador. And so I went and I, that's when I first started weeping in my sleep.

• 14:30Anderson Cooper?

  Were you actually asleep or waking up and weeping?

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes. I was asleep and I was crying in my sleep. And then I got a referral to a particularly expert EMDR practitioner and I just dragged my bones over there twice a week for three months, just to work on my trauma.

• 14:53Anderson Cooper?

  EMDR is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, a series of rapid eye movements while rethinking about a traumatic episode. Is that correct?

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Yes. And then the brain is so imaginative and generative, it really takes over. And so you only have to hold the explicit image of the traumatic event for a few seconds. But you do have to hold it. You do have to bring it up initially and then it goes away. And it helps the traumatic memories be processed and stored into the brain in a way that makes them not intrusive and come blindingly out when I'm sitting in so-called polite company and I want to just blurt out inappropriate things because I'm being hijacked by a bloody memory.

• 15:39Anderson Cooper?

  These thoughts, these intrusive thoughts can come at any time. You're sitting with friends in a situation completely unrelated and suddenly the images come.

• 15:50Anderson Cooper?

  Of being there with your mom.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  Yes, or the police arriving or being interrogated four times, or the fact that there was all this body camera footage, or, you know, all the things that were apart and were very alive inside of me until I completed this very rigorous and intensive series of EMDR. And then the grief came up and it was like such a relief just to grieve. And I actually had a re-experience of the shock, which is the first stage of grief, a year after my mom had died. I would just be doing something, washing the dishes, you know, writing on my second book, and this wave of shock would overcome me, as if I had just walked in the room again.

• 16:28Anderson Cooper?

  You told, I think, The New York Times that after doing that, that you learned to kind of store your memories in a safe place, almost like they were located behind cellophane of a scrapbook page? Is that right?

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's one of the ways I experienced the difference between grief and trauma. Trauma is bouncing around and jumping out at me behind a sofa, whereas grief is in a scrapbook, like an old fashioned scrapbook, in a photograph, behind a page of cellophane, stored on a bookshelf. And, you know, I'm in a pretty joyful place about my mom's death, which also needs to be shared and uplifted, because my mom was this intensely curious person. And she was so interested in neuroscience and neurocognition and the universe and the cosmos. And she was buddies with Lisa Randall, who's this astrophysicist

• 17:23Speaker 02

  at Harvard. She knew Marvin Minsky, who was the original person who was exploring artificial intelligence. And these were just her friends. And people wouldn't associate Naomi Judd with his Nobel laureates, per se. But my mom is now in the vastness of consciousness in the mind of God. What a great place for her to be. I'm thrilled for her. You know, all of these mysteries, which just made her daydream, are now where her spirit resides. And so I'm having these conversations with her about how she's just with the mystery.

• 17:57Anderson Cooper?

  So you have conversations with your mom?

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, a little sly wink, wink, you know. A little riding back and forth.

• 18:05Anderson Cooper?

  It's one of the things that I've learned in talking to people that's really been helpful to me is this idea that you can still have a relationship with somebody who has died.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:13Anderson Cooper?

  And in fact, that relationship can grow and change and morph. As, as I age, I come to understand my father in a way I didn't before. As I have children of my own, I suddenly see my father and my mother in a different light because I understand more about their parenting and what they saw in me. Do you find your relationship with your mom changes?

• 18:35Speaker 02

  I am finding that, and I really encourage people to honor these small impulses. If, if a thought crosses the mind, pay attention to it. Consider it a nudge, perhaps from your loved one. You know, when I go to Walgreens, which is where I buy all my greeting cards, I will stop and look at the cards from mothers to daughters.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  And I will pick out the one that I think mom would have chosen for me. I did that at Christmas. I do that on my birthday. And I pick out the one that I would have gotten for her for the holidays. I'll go to Walgreens and pick out the one for her birthday, which is on January 11th. And then I went on this kick recently where I wanted to talk to people who knew her, one of her last treating psychiatrists, and then a boyfriend she had in 1975, who was a Vietnam vet, who became a peace activist and lived in the woods in Appalachia without running water or heat. And I just said, I gotta talk to this guy. He knew my mom in a way that I never will. You know, when I was being paid 10 cents to massage her feet when she got home from nursing school.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  And Dudon, who played the guitar for the Judds and created all those signature licks and songs like "Why Not Me," he was on the road with my mother and sister, and I want to talk to Dudon, and I did.

• 20:01Anderson Cooper?

  You wanted to see your mom through different eyes?

• 20:04Speaker 02

  I just wanted to hear stories, dimensionality, personality, what was on her mind, what she was like, what they talked about, if she talked about me.

• 20:19Anderson Cooper?

  One of the things that, um...

• 20:24Anderson Cooper?

  Sorry.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  I'm here, Anderson.

• 20:29Anderson Cooper?

  One of the things I found so hard about losing my brother to suicide

• 20:34Anderson Cooper?

  was I get stuck in how his life ended. And my shock over it and the realization that I didn't really know him. And I'm wondering if the manner of your mom's death made you question how much you knew her.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for sharing that.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  All our stories are sacred. And I really honor the place in you that that's coming from.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  And I think we all deserve to be remembered for how we lived.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  And how we died is simply part of a bigger story.

• 21:16Anderson Cooper?

  We're going to take a short break. More with Ashley Judd in a moment.

• 21:25Anderson Cooper?

  Welcome back to All There Is.

• 21:29Anderson Cooper?

  It is your mom's birthday coming up, January 11th. And I know on the first birthday that you had without her, you actually threw a party.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  I threw a wonderful party.

• 21:39Anderson Cooper?

  For like 60 people?

• 21:40Speaker 02

  60 people who knew and loved and adored Diana Ellen Judd, Naomi, yes. Yeah, it was wonderful.

• 21:49Anderson Cooper?

  Was that, that must have been hard, no?

• 21:51Speaker 02

  I don't, again, I guess it's just the nudge. I just, I don't know where the idea came from. It just bubbled up. And the next thing I knew, there were 60 people at the house. You know, the amazing woman, Ms. Doris, who sewed mom's costumes and Brent Mayer, who produced all the Judds' records, who had just beautiful stories about her. And we had fried chicken and biscuits and gravy. And we just squeezed onto my sleeping porch and pulled up chairs and sat on the floor and laughed and cried and celebrated.

• 22:22Anderson Cooper?

  Do you still feel like you are grieving?

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm still grieving, yes, yes, but in different ways. And part of the way I'm grieving is that Mom's spirit is very alive to me. I mean, I did a little grieving day before yesterday. We had Christmas and we had 18 people in a cabin in the Great Smoky Mountains, you know, all my chosen family. And one of the things we learned to do with Mom was all sit around and say, what is the one memory you really want to make this holiday? What's something that if you didn't have the opportunity to do it, you would be disappointed? And for her, it was she always wanted to get a big picture of the family altogether. And so we do that. That's a tradition that is still carried on as inspired by her. So I'm grieving in that way, you know, by keeping her spirit and her traditions and her customs alive.

• 23:11Anderson Cooper?

  I spoke to President Biden about grief a few months ago. And there's a photograph of his son Beau when he was a little boy. And he's turning to the camera and kind of waving. And one of the things he said is that's the image that the president has in his mind's eye of his son. Not the image of his son at the end of his life, not at the beginning of his life, in that moment. I'm wondering, is there an image you carry of your mom in your head?

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Well, now you've got me. My turn to weep. So Mom and I, and Pop and I are neighbors in rural Tennessee. And we're stoppers by. So just stop by, stop by, stop by. And, you know, Mom would stop by and she would always have these plastic bags. And at first, years ago, when this started, I would be a little aggravated because I recycle. You know, I would see like, why is she bringing these unnecessary plastic items into my house? And then I thought, you know what?

• 24:24Speaker 02

  She's letting me know that she's thinking about me on aisle four. That I'm always on her mind. That's what this is about, you know? And I began to see everything that she brought into that house as precious.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  And then when I would go to their house, I always went around the side of the house to the back porch. And I never had on shoes. And the side of the house in the back are walled up, floor to ceiling glass. And she would be on her sofa where she stayed because of the depression. But when she saw me, she would get up. Invariably, she got up no matter how sick she was. And she would light up. And she would come to the back door and open it. And she would exclaim, "There's my darling, there's my girl, there's my baby." And that's how I see my mom.

• 25:27Anderson Cooper?

  I read that she used to call you Sweet Pea. Is that right?

• 25:29Speaker 02

  She did call me Sweet Pea. And I still sign my cards to Pop Sweet Pea. I am not letting go of that one. I'm keeping that one for life.

• 25:44Anderson Cooper?

  My mom left little notes among her things because she knew I'd be the one going through them all. Have you gone through your mom's stuff?

• 25:54Speaker 02

  I've gone through some of it. And I have, I'm blessed to have an attic, so I have a lot of things in the attic. I have her hairbrush. And I have that sitting out with some of her hair in it. And I have all her pajamas folded in my closet with my pajamas.

• 26:10Anderson Cooper?

  Do you wear them?

• 26:12Speaker 02

  I haven't worn them yet, but I will. I will. I wear her pants. I have some of her fancy dresses and coats and things, which I look forward to wearing. And I have a lot of her things. And everything has folded Kleenex in the pockets. And I just leave those and I pull them out and I sort of wave them. And, you know, everybody knows that I'm wearing something of my mom's if I've got a folded Kleenex.

• 26:36Anderson Cooper?

  She was always the go-to person for a folded Kleenex?

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she often had a half a tuna salad sandwich in her bra. You know, she just, that's how she rolled.

• 26:44Anderson Cooper?

  In her bra?

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, she was funny. She was funny. And...

• 26:50Anderson Cooper?

  Was that for herself or to offer to others?

• 26:52Speaker 02

  Well, she always fed her children. She would always offer some for us.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  I've been through some of her day timers.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  You know, and looked down at what she wrote on our birthdays and...

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that notebook with her songwriting is very precious. You know, her first ever songs and, you know, she went on to receive many accolades and won Grammys for songwriting and these are just her initial forays in seventy-four and seventy-five. And they're beautiful. They're beautiful. Some of them are like songs.

• 27:59Anderson Cooper?

  There's one other song I just want to play. It's "Guardian Angels."

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, about my great-grandparents, my triple great-grandparents.

• 28:41Anderson Cooper?

  Such a great song.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you, Anderson. Love that.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  "Life," the pathos.

• 28:54Anderson Cooper?

  I received more than a thousand calls at the end of the last season of this podcast, and I listened to all of them, 46 hours of people's calls. And people spoke about grief in so many different ways, and so many different kinds of grief. And one of the kinds of grief people spoke about is the grief for somebody who is still alive but who is suffering a mental illness, or who's suffering an addiction, or alcoholism. And so there's a lot of people listening who are in this situation right now. And I'm wondering what you would say to them about that grief of seeing a loved one suffer, and yet, how do you navigate that?

• 29:35Speaker 02

  I would say, there's always help and hope for friends and families. And we have the right to lead our own lives with dignity, and wellness, and pleasure. And we're not betraying our loved ones by pursuing a good life for ourselves when they are sick and suffering. You know, my mother took so much pleasure in the goodness of my life, and she was so tremendously proud of me.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  And my social activism, my advocacy, my voice, it gave her so much delight. I am responsible for my own life. And if that means I'm responsible for my own life, it also means that other adults are responsible for their own lives. And I can walk beside them, but I can't get inside their skin and live it and do it for them. And I can have compassion and say, "I see you, I hear you, is there something I can do to support you right now?" But to understand that that support should not go so far as enabling them, you know, to love them but not do for them what they can and should do for themselves.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  And it's very fine work. It's like being a fine mechanic on a Swiss watch.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  You know, how to sit with my mom and know that she really wants a pill that's going to fix it, when I think that she needs to go to detox, right? Which at certain times she did. Or I think that a good stay in behavioral health, which we also know is the psych unit, under expert care, might be beneficial, but her PTSD is getting in the way and she's too scared to surrender to that kind of care. And I have to respect her autonomy, even though I have medical power of attorney and could sign her in. You know, but then how do I handle my disappointment, my anxiety, my sense of loss?

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Those things are my responsibility. You know, this distinction between enabling, when I'm really doing for someone what they can and should do for themselves, and giving encouragement and understanding, can be acquired. But we have to look for our teachers. You know, and those can be found in 12-step programs, it can be found in a good therapist, it can be found in a lot of recovery literature.

• 32:16Anderson Cooper?

  Do you feel like the grief that you feel over your mom, that that will be with you always? Is it something that just ebbs and flows? Is it something that morphs with time and becomes something different, but is always there?

• 32:31Speaker 02

  I think it will be a journey of discovery. I think it will be a journey of discovery, because there are many things I haven't done yet. I haven't been ready to look at pictures yet.

• 32:40Anderson Cooper?

  Photograph, family photographs?

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, family photographs. I've seen a few, but I haven't really looked thoroughly, intensively at pictures yet. Pictures of her in, in recent years before her death. You know, she was in Austria with pop before she died. She came back on Friday and she died on Saturday. And she was having a mixed experience in Austria. She was having a really good time and also she texted me, "My brain hurts." And so I haven't looked at the pictures from Austria, I haven't looked at, you know, the holiday pictures from the previous years. And, yeah, I think it's going to be just the walk, the walk of my life.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  As I, as I reflected now, I'm in this kind of yummy place of just enjoying the mirth of knowing that she's...

• 33:34Speaker 02

  With this vast consciousness and that she knows the mystery now.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  And that just delights me.

• 33:42Anderson Cooper?

  One of the things I'm very grateful for in terms of my mom's death, who died at 95, was that there was really nothing left unsaid between us. And I'm wondering, do you feel that with your mom? Because, I mean, the road you had been on with her, I mean, it's an extraordinarily winding and torturous at times and beautiful at times road.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  You know, I hadn't really thought about that, Anderson. And I think that my mom and I were pretty complete. I mean, we talked about a lot of stuff. We were emotionally quite intimate. And the one ache that I had for my mom was that I know that toward the end, what ended up becoming the end of her life, she was feeling some guilt and shame about her parenting. Even though all was forgiven very clearly on my part, you know, I made my amends to her, which is what really instigated the healing in our relationship.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  I did that in 2008 for the rage that I had carried as an adult, which really opened the floodgates to a very deep bonding between us. And she spontaneously made her amends to me as well.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  She shared this story about how one Easter, when we lived in Marin County, she couldn't afford a turkey and she bought a chicken. And she told sister and me that it was a turkey, as if we knew the difference. I was in the third grade. And she was just, she had so much shame about that. And I remember feeling like I wished I could have just lifted that shame out of her. But that has to be an inside job.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Although I look back on it and I wish I'd maybe said a little more or done a little something like patted her leg or given her a hug or a kiss on the cheek and and just expressed a little bit more of the compassion that I was feeling inside. So that feels like a little piece of unfinished business. And I did address that on her deathbed when I was saying, let it all go, let it, don't take anything with you. That's what I meant. It was that moment I was referring to and any guilt or shame that she was feeling about her parenting.

• 36:05Anderson Cooper?

  I read this quote earlier and I just, I didn't read the entire quote, but it gets to what you're saying, which was you had said, "I was powerless over my childhood. The survival strategies that I developed made my adult life unmanageable. When I took responsibility for those survival strategies, my relationships with both my parents transformed and healed."

• 36:23Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 36:24Anderson Cooper?

  That's what made the difference.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  Absolutely. That, that made the difference. That was the catapult.

• 36:29Anderson Cooper?

  And when you

• 36:30Speaker 02

  It was the catalyst and the catapult.

• 36:31Anderson Cooper?

  When you said you took responsibility for those survival strategies, what does that mean?

• 36:38Speaker 02

  Well, I did my anger work and what that looks like is, you know, kicking and screaming and fighting and yelling and telling all the perpetrators to get off of me and all that kind of stuff. And writing and drawing and, you know, just getting it out because it lives in the very cells of our bodies, moving it out experientially of my body. And, um, you know, so I quit taking my anger out on my parents. I became able to hold complexity and to have a tense conversation without blowing up or leaving the room or, you know, getting sideways.

• 37:14Anderson Cooper?

  So that was the change, sort of recognizing the little child, the stuff that was from the little child and being able to work on that and figure out a way to amend those survival strategies?

• 37:25Speaker 02

  Yes. Yes. And know what was the core pain from childhood and work on that separately? And what was showing up as an adult?

• 37:36Anderson Cooper?

  Well, Ashley, thank you so much for, is there anything else you'd want to say?

• 37:41Speaker 02

  Oh, just thank you so much for being you and bless you on your journey and. Just keep trudging, keep trudging. And I appreciate the opportunity to be with you. And I'm so thankful that we're in this community of grievers together.

• 37:59Anderson Cooper?

  It is the strange thing about grief is that it feels so alone. And yet, it is this experience which everybody has gone through or will go through. And yet, it still feels so lonely.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  No one can do it for us. We do not have to do it alone.

• 38:22Anderson Cooper?

  Ashley Judd, thank you so much.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  Peace be with you.

• 38:26Anderson Cooper?

  If you or someone you love is struggling, help is available. In the US, you can call or text the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988. Ashley also had some suggestions you can check out if you're interested. One is a website, grief.com. Another is the Loving Parent Guidebook. And a third is another book, Opening Our Hearts, Transforming Our Losses. We'll have an all-new episode of the podcast next week. Wherever you are in the world and in your grief, I hope you know you're not alone.

• 39:03Anderson Cooper?

  All There Is is a production of CNN Audio. The show is produced by Grace Walker and Dan Bloom. Our senior producer is Haley Thomas. Dan DeZula is our technical director, and Steve Ligtai is our executive producer. Support from Nick Gottzel, Ben Evans, Chuck Hadad, Charlie Moore, Kerry Rubin, Kerry Pritchard, Shimeri Chitrit, Ronald Bettis, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, John Dionora, Laney Steinhardt, Jameis Andrest, Nicole Peseru, and Lisa Namro. Special thanks to Wendy Brundage.