Duke Legend Jay Williams Talks NBA, Kyrie, Media Frenzy & Life Changing Accident

FOLLOW THE PIVOT PODCAST: MERCH | https://pivotpodcast.com YOUTUBE | https://www.youtube.com/thepivotpodcast INSTAGRAM | https://instagram.com/thepivot TWITTER | https://twitter.com/thepivot TIKTOK | https://tiktok.com/@thepivot FACEBOOK | https://www.facebook.com/thepivotpodcast FOLLOW HAPPY DAD: https://www.instagram.com/happydad FIND HAPPY DAD: https://www.happydad.com/find NBA Analyst and Duke basketball legend Jay Williams joins the Pivot for a deep conversation addressing some of the latest media controversies and the tragedy he's overcome. With Fred returning from his trip this week, we asked Jay Williams, someone who we admire as an entrepreneur and media personality but also one of the greatest to play the game of basketball, to sit in for a special edition of The Pivot. With Thanksgiving just passing and the holidays around the corner, It's a good time to reflect on life and appreciate the growth life's journey takes us on. Jay joins Ryan and Channing for a conversation covering the latest topics in sports, media and takes us through the trials and tribulations he's experienced from being a star at Duke to being a #2 NBA draft pick to his life changing accident to finding his purpose in life through rehabilitation, media and family. Recently, Jay, a NBA analyst for ESPN, received backlash and sparked some viral debates as he was one of the first to publicly demonstrate support for Kyrie Irving in the controversy around his social media post promoting a documentary "Hebrews to Negroes: Wake Up Black America" and encouraged people to take a moment and allow for conversation around the situation without immediately condemning Kyrie for his thoughts. The guys go into detail about what led Jay to take this stance and jeopardize his job and put so much on the line to speak his mind. Jay details the night of the motorcycle accident that almost took his life and took the thing he loved most from him, basketball. In an emotional moment, Jay shares the fear and emotional battles he fought while also fighting physically to regain his strength. Finding purpose again and being able to have a gift to impact others through media and his businesses has been life saving and a blessing that Jay doesn't take lightly. A father of three and married to his best friend, Jay talks about how family is the foundation for all that he does and his backbone after growing up with a close knit family but one that wasn't exempt from emotional hardships as well. Gambling Problem? Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling 1-800-GAMBLER (1-800-426-2537) (IL/IN/LA/MD/MI/NJ/PA/TN/WV/WY), 1-800-NEXT STEP (AZ), 1-800-522-4700 (CO/KS/NH), 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), 1-800-BETS OFF (IA), visit OPGR.org (OR), or 1-888-532-3500 (VA). 21+ (18+ NH/WY). Physically present in AZ/CO/CT/IL/IN/IA/KS/LA(select parishes)/MD/MI/NH/NJ/NY/OR/PA/TN/VA/WV/WY only. Void in ONT. Eligibility restrictions apply. See terms at draftkings.com/sportsbook. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest, or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an Ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  I'm not stray.

• 0:30Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, he definitely did. What up, my guy?

• 0:33Speaker 01

  What up, man?

• 0:34Ryan Clark?

  How you doing, brother?

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Uh-oh.

• 0:36Channing Crowder?

  You doing good, boy?

• 0:37Speaker 01

  I'm good, man.

• 0:38Channing Crowder?

  Hey, what up, man? The fire started.

• 0:40Ryan Clark?

  No, man. No, man.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  I'm low-key.

• 0:43Ryan Clark?

  The first time I met J. Will, too, though, I sized him up. I was like, shit, hold on, I can... You know, because his little...

• 0:47Speaker 01

  He's strong as hell, right? He's not gonna do it.

• 0:49Ryan Clark?

  I know. I'm here on one leg, and I'm like, come on, man, I don't want that. I don't want that in my life. I got a little bit for him, dawg.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  Hey, it took us one night at the DoubleTree Bar.

• 0:59Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  And we were boys from then on.

• 1:00Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  It was like one long-ass conversation.

• 1:03Channing Crowder?

  We were gonna talk about it. He kinda told me about that.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06Ryan Clark?

  That's how we got tag.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08Ryan Clark?

  That's how we got tag.

• 1:31Ryan Clark?

  But first of all, thank you for coming. Uh, J. Will, welcome to The Pivot. Obviously, this is Channing, I'm RC. We're missing Fred. Fred had to take a trip. And so, for us, we didn't necessarily want to do a show that we felt like wasn't complete. And if we were gonna decide to do a show, it was first gonna be a story that is worth telling. Uh, it had to be a person that was good at telling the story, and that could communicate something to people that not only that we learned, and we felt, but that our subscribers and our viewers were able to learn from. And I think, lastly, we had to feel like anybody who sat in the seat that Fred would be sitting in could be a member of The Pivot. And that's why we chose J. Will.

• 2:16Ryan Clark?

  Two-time Player of the Year in college at Duke, a national champion, number-two overall pick. Uh... As I get away-

• 2:25Speaker 01

  A lot of 76 Chinese people in the draft, in every draft.

• 2:27Ryan Clark?

  It's only one, actually. His name was Zhao.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30Ryan Clark?

  And when-

• 2:31Speaker 01

  He's still salty.

• 2:32Ryan Clark?

  Now, father, married to Nikki. Amazing businessman, absolute phenomenal analyst, and more importantly, he's my friend. And so, DraftKings, Happy Dad, thank you guys for sponsoring us. Remember, continue to subscribe, hit the like button and comment. And I think, Jay Will, we're gonna get the elephant out the room, and not the way Baker Mayfield said the elephant was in the room on the Heisman commercial when Roll Tide was doing, when Derrick Henry them was on the lawn and Bryce Young picking up Devonte Smith. Like, the true, it's not an elephant in our room because, or for you, because you addressed it head-on. I just watched, again, your video on Instagram

• 3:14Ryan Clark?

  and speaking about Kyrie and buckbreaking, and the way that, as a community, we have been taught that there's very little requirement and contrition that needs to be used or that is asked of you when you insult the black community. But it seems like every other community is afforded more compassion, more empathy, more sympathy, as Kyrie has been punished. I'm just gonna start and ask you this question. Doing our job, I get how hard it is to stand on a limb that no one else is willing to stand on. A lot of times, and

• 3:56Ryan Clark?

  I've seen it since you posted your video, there are a lot of people who dribbled basketballs who said what Kyrie did was wrong, and then kinda after you said something, "Everybody, he should play, he should be able to play." What made you stand where you stood and the way you stood so early on in Kyrie's, I guess, the saga after he posted from Hebrews to Negroes? Number one, I know Kyrie. I don't know him-

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Extremely well, but there is a brotherhood, a lineage, that I think those principles need to be stood upon. I mean, he's from Jersey, I'm from Jersey. He went to Duke, I went to Duke. I've gotten a chance to converse with him on multiple occasions and have very thoughtful conversations. I think I recognize Kyrie's intent. And I also see the purpose that he's striving for. You know, this is such a complicated conversation that I almost felt like it was a disservice to try to have this conversation on a First Take platform, or even my show, or any platform, right? It had to be something that, it should have been thoughtful. Details and being descriptive of those nuances

• 5:13Speaker 01

  deserve our time to think through. Because I think how you position something is very important. And for me, being from Jersey, we always call, like, my friends, we call each other the UN, right? And we got, I got Jewish friends, I got black friends, I got Latino friends, I got Asian friends from all over the world, right? And we have a lot of these conversations on our text chains, while we're watching games, all this stuff. And I've recognized throughout my time growing up is that how I say something to you, RC, might be different than the way I need to say something to you, Janet, or maybe different than the way I need to say something to Alicia, or maybe different than the way I need to talk to my mother, who's a strong black woman, or my friend who's Asian, right? Like, you have to position conversations differently. And for me, I didn't agree with how Kyrie

• 6:00Speaker 01

  took the opportunity. Took what opportunity? So it was more so off the gate, which was like my first reaction. But on First Take, I didn't really get a chance to even have time to dig deep because I actually wanted to plant a seed, which I'll tell you about in a minute. It was more so about when you come to the podium for me, the way I would have advised any of my friends to do this, is if you're going to post this, and I watched the whole video, my first question I had to anybody that had a comment on it, did you even watch it? So, straight off the bat, like, that was the first question I asked everybody. You'd be amazed at how many people, "Oh, I didn't watch, I just read excerpts." I'm like, "Oh, so you, you didn't formulate your own opinion, but you go on national TV,

• 6:42Speaker 01

  and being very descriptive about how you feel," which is a problem I have with the news in the first place. You know, news back in the day, it used to be the news, and then a smaller segment on maybe how you felt about the news. Now, it's about how you feel, and then the news is a backstory to how you feel. Right? Because your emotion elicits, things going viral. So, I felt a lot of people's emotions to other people's reactions, gave them their own reaction that they articulated. But if I were to advise Kyrie, I would say, "Hey, when you go to the podium, right out the gate, if there was anything in the film that you disagree with, state that, real quick, right? If there were little tidbits about Hitler and, you know, talking about the Holocaust never occurred,

• 7:25Speaker 01

  like, take care of that right away. Diffuse that topic, because I know you, I know your character, you don't agree with that. And then talk about what you learned, and talk about this exploration that you have, and what you're trying to find out about your black heritage. Because, brother, I'm on that same journey, I'm on that same path. I think a lot of us are, we're trying to understand where our origins are. When people say, "What's up, king?", like, "What does that mean?", you know, understand your power, and your voice, and yourself. So, when I saw him get into that spat with Nick Fidel about the word "promotion", I'm like, "Don't take the bait." But I also understand that Kyrie, there's a history there. It's not just about this posting, it's about the pandemic,

• 8:08Speaker 01

  it's about a battle that he's in with Joe Tsai, it's about the battle that he feels like he's being forced to do something, or he has to explain himself. And I think that's difficult for Kyrie. I'm not under the same kind of intensity and pressure that Kyrie is 24/7 to answer to something. And I think that's challenging for him. But I think there was a slightly missed window there that he could have done differently. That maybe would have diffused the situation, so. Not what he said, it's not, it's what he didn't say. It's what he didn't say. But I also understand how the trick of the media, man, it's a lot of, uh. You see this? Now you don't. Right? And how that just gets spearheaded towards something polarizing and people already wanted to attack him.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  People were already on it. Like, I was the only one on TV talking about, hold on a second, he's not the only one who isn't vaccinated now. There were a lot of other players in other sports. Baseball, football, basketball, that didn't receive the same amount of heat that Kyrie did. But since the municipalities are different in New York City. He almost became the face for the unvaccinated. I'm like, that's wrong. I'm not gonna allow you guys to sit up here and attack him. Because he's standing on something that he just needs more time to figure out what he wants to, and we're going about the conversation the wrong way.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  It's not about yelling, it's not about criticizing and getting likes for the sake of just people. Are you trying to really talk to him? Are you really trying to talk to him? And try to understand where he's coming from? So, I think for me. Dealing with it. Taking time to think about it. I was like, man, I'mma, I'mma tell my truth. I think that was, it was really hard for me, man, because I got. I got three mouths to feed. We just had my, my third child. My daughter Penelope. It's born a month and a half ago. I live in a predominantly Jewish town. Right now. Um, my wife is Lebanese and Italian.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  I knew people were gonna question my blackness throughout the process. But it was just what felt right, man. It was what felt right, because it got to a point where it felt like it was being done for media purposes. It's like, hey, we're just gonna add fuel to the fire. When I knew. Like, yo Shaq, you promoted this movie in your theater, man. I'm not gonna go on national TV and say that, but...

• 10:43Channing Crowder?

  Did you know, before, like...

• 10:45Speaker 01

  I read about it.

• 10:47Channing Crowder?

  But did you know that the backlash was gonna be what it was?

• 10:49Speaker 01

  For me?

• 10:51Channing Crowder?

  Were you surprised by the, the...

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:53Channing Crowder?

  What came of it?

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I got a lot of things in motion, business-wise, for where I wanna be. I have a lot of partners. And frankly, for me, like, that was on the line. It was on the line. So, it's like, you know, got stuff you sell on the platforms, got a content company, um, got other investments that I'm doing as it relates to the RIA business, registered investment agents, and risk mitigation and insurance, and I got a lot of other things out there. So for me, I could, I could, I could lose it. I could, I still can. But it was worth it for me to stand on my principles.

• 11:33Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  In that moment.

• 11:34Channing Crowder?

  That was the question I had. I actually have to ask you about it. Why? Cause you even said it in, in the, in the, uh, in your Twitter, your Twitter video that's sent out that, you know, we have all watched the Instagram video that you sent out. You said, "I could lose my job for this." And you just said it. You have mouths to feed. Why was it worth it? To, to come out and tell your truth and tell what you see as you felt another black man was in a situation that he should not be in? Why?

• 12:04Speaker 01

  I used to think a lot of times my gift was to play a sport. And then when I almost passed away, and I couldn't play that sport anymore, and I got involved in media,

• 12:16Speaker 01

  I started to learn the gift of gab and how to communicate. And how to activate my own story to build more connective tissue with human beings or people. And I've been on a long haul of a journey to do that. And I thought the opportunity presented itself for all that equity that I had built about my story and how we're all the same, to also double down on about how I also feel that I'm different. And help people empathize with what our everyday plight is. And about some of the challenges that come along with that. And I thought it was an opportunity that frankly...

• 12:59Speaker 01

  I was left here for. Like, I feel like that's a part of my purpose, man. Like, I really, honestly, there's nobody that said I had to be here after the age of 21 years old. And I think now, having the platform, being on the show, talking to people like you, and seeing how you inspire, like, words can inspire. And how you, I had so many Jewish people reach out to me after that to say, "I never thought about it from that perspective." And I used that as a door-opening opportunity to say, "Okay, now tell me about your perspective." And build that, that's why I use that critical word. It's time for us to exchange, right? Like, I've seen a lot of exchange over the last several years. Like, I've seen Jewish people protest, you know, for George Floyd. Like, I've seen a lot of that battle.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  But there's a lot of underlying things that I sometimes feel like in the black community, other people don't know because they haven't spent the time to really understand. They've been a part of big things that have happened, and you've shown your camaraderie with us. But are you truly taking the time to try to understand and empathize? And that was a moment that I took as, it's like words, we'll use, "Oh, that's a failure." Or it was an opportunity, man. It was a learning opportunity for all of us to exchange. And that's why I thought that word was powerful.

• 14:13Ryan Clark?

  You know, you talked about having mouths to feed, and also you're saying your purpose. We do the same job, and we work on many of the same shows. We get the production, you know, you have your production meeting, or they send you the rundown, and you know what you're going to talk about. And you have all these thoughts running through your head before you sit down. And so many times, you finish talking, or they're saying, "Okay, now it's Stephen A., or now it's Perk, or it's Keyshawn, or whatever." And you aren't finished talking. And you actually haven't gotten out the point that you want, right? And then you start to receive backlash on what truly is an incomplete thought. And then now, you go to your Instagram,

• 14:56Ryan Clark?

  and I felt like, at least to me, that was the second statement, right? Your response to the backlash was the actual purpose. But it started with you defending Kyrie. Why, in that moment, was Kyrie worth putting your livelihood on the line for the three mouths you have to feed?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Because it wasn't, it wasn't just Kyrie. It's us.

• 15:29Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest, or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra. Because it's not just a superior like beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  It's different.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  And it was creating a path of hypocrisy that I really have felt this way for a long time, man.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  You know, we joke around with Grant Hill, right? How many times I was called an Uncle Tom?

• 16:20Ryan Clark?

  I've been there.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Growing up. Like, I watched my dad, one of 10, from Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Everybody in their family went to college. It was a monumental achievement for my nana.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  My nana would talk about it with pride. And like, education was a really big thing. So you can be prepared in moments to articulate what you're feeling. And also be successful in the world, like, because knowledge is power. And for me, I think there was a lot of a lack there of knowledge in how challenging it is a lot of times to be black.

• 17:02Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And I know y'all felt this shit. There's so many times I'm the only black guy in a room. And I'm supposed to feel so comfortable. And we talk about tropes, we talk about stereotypes. Oh, well, Jay's, you know, the guy, two-time national player of the year. I'm like, well, I'm way more than just hooping. Like, I actually graduated from school in three years. Do you want to lead? Does that want to be your headline statement? But it was like, oh, this is, here is the reason why he's in the room. It's like other people's justification. I'm like, no, I belong in this room. But that takes a while to get to. So for me, it was more so along the lines, RC, about like,

• 17:44Speaker 01

  no, I want people to understand how different it feels and how I feel like other people get a lot more leeway. And now what we're asking Kyrie to do is way overboard because we haven't asked that of other people.

• 17:59Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  But maybe we need to start asking that of other people.

• 18:03Ryan Clark?

  You mentioned about being in the room. We had to do a Zoom with Proctor and Gamble. And they were asking us certain questions. And Channing said, whenever I'm invited to an event or I have a speaking engagement, I never say thank you when I show up. I say, you're welcome. He said, because I'm here because I've earned the right to be here.

• 18:25Channing Crowder?

  You asked me to be here. I'm not, I'm not here because I snuck in. I didn't steal a ticket. And I think that's a thing that a lot of young black men feel is if they are blessed to be in this room. No. Everybody in this room's here for a reason. And I try to articulate that to my high school players. I coach football. And I tell them the same thing. You're welcome. I showed up. You're welcome. And I think, and, and it sounds cocky. It sounds arrogant, but

• 18:57Speaker 01

  It's real.

• 18:57Channing Crowder?

  It's real. You're welcome. And I think that's the thing that black men don't really do. We feel blessed to be around billionaires. We feel blessed to be around CEOs, CFOs, COOs. No. I am just as successful as you. If I've walked in this room because football put me there, because basketball put you there, football put you there, but it's bigger than that. And that's something that I try to articulate to every young black man I meet, bro. You're welcome.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Can I ask you guys, what did you guys think of the Kyrie situation?

• 19:29Ryan Clark?

  The situation is very nuanced, right? Which was why I had to go study the film before I said anything. And I was never asked. The, the first thing, the first thing I ever put out was after having time to digest it, having time. And I'd be honest with you, I didn't watch the whole thing. I watched clips. I read. I can be honest about that. I wanted to know what was anti-Semitic about it.

• 19:57Ryan Clark?

  Because I truly didn't understand, which is why when you talked about exchange and having conversations, I was like, I would love to be a part of those conversations. Unlike you, I grew up in Louisiana. I don't know a lot of Jewish people. You know, I, I, I didn't have a lot of friends who could educate me on their backgrounds, on their adversities that were faced, not necessarily by them only, but their ancestors or their grandparents in generations. And the only thing I thought was this, I don't believe that posting about something or promoting something leads to saying that everything that was in that promotion is your thought. I don't believe it's championing that thought.

• 20:40Ryan Clark?

  I did think how you said Kyrie could have dispelled or said, "There are things I don't agree with. Here is what I don't agree with." I don't even necessarily think he had to say that. I thought what could have helped him and what I would have liked to hear is what I want to hear from anybody who offends the African-American community. I don't, I never intended, people who are truly unaware, not real racist mother effers, people who are truly unaware, I want to hear, I never intended to offend you. But if I did, tell me how. Make me aware of the pain and the hurt that I have caused. Because if my actions have caused any hurt and pain,

• 21:24Ryan Clark?

  that's not what I wanted to do. Right? And I think that simply says, this is not the reason I watched the film. I watched the film for me. The things that I saw in the film were things that I was searching for me. But if any of me searching for a piece of myself offends you, that was never my intention and I'm sorry for your hurt. I'm not sorry for my actions because you only have to be sorry if my intentions were the outcome. But I am sorry for your hurt. I do need to be more aware and I talked to Tanning about this too. We all have different things that affect us different ways, Jay.

• 22:08Ryan Clark?

  And if you tell me, if I say something to you and you like, RC, like, I don't like that. You know what I'm saying? And it may be something about just how I am. I may just talk like that. I may get loud when I talk or I may cuss or whatever it is. And if you tell me, RC, man, like, I don't really like being cussed. And now, in the next conversation we have, I still say F you, that's on me. Cause now I know, but initially it's not. Cause initially I didn't know that this would offend you. I didn't know that it would hurt you. I did, oh, that was never my intention, but if I tell you, Jay, I got you. I'm aware of that now, man. I apologize for doing it the first time. Won't happen again. We good. And I just think that Kyrie could have been.

• 22:50Ryan Clark?

  And listen to you talk about like the history of like the reporters and how you feel him being on edge. And I also feel like people attacked him because it was Kyrie. If LeBron James does that, that doesn't happen. It's Kyrie's, it's Kyrie's like past. This is history. It's the fact that he saged the arena in Boston. That people, that people somehow think.

• 23:09Channing Crowder?

  The flat earth.

• 23:09Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, people think he's strange. And because they think he's strange and he's done some things, they attack him like the COVID thing in a way that I don't feel is fair.

• 23:19Ryan Clark?

  I feel like they are not speaking about his current action. They're speaking from a point of how they feel about it. And in our jobs, that's unfair. And I feel like he was unfairly attacked for this.

• 23:34Channing Crowder?

  RC's point, my wife forced me to watch it. Cause it's three and a half hours. It's a long ass.

• 23:40Ryan Clark?

  It's a long time.

• 23:40Channing Crowder?

  It's a long documentary. I think they took it, the anti-Semitic side of it was taken. He was looking for his religious background. Christianity was forced on slaves to give them something to hope for. And we all know that.

• 23:56Ryan Clark?

  That's why you have Negro spirituals. That's why you have hymnals.

• 23:59Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, all that stuff. Like, we knew that and he's just looking for more, looking for clarity. And to your point, it's not what he said or did, it's what he didn't say. It's what he didn't explain firsthand. Because as I watched it and as my wife started running in the room when I'm watching a football game and saying, hey, pause the game and she was showing, showing me different things on, on, on that documentary. It opened my mind as well, and I appreciate Kyrie for that. But that's, that, that was the point that I think, and that's why I asked you earlier about it. Kyrie didn't explain fully what he was doing that for. And whatever they took from it, they took the negativity from it.

• 24:44Channing Crowder?

  But what's, what was the positivity that came out of that? Because I was enlightened, J. Will. I, I was enlightened from that.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  And to me, the, the biggest point out of all of this is that there is this uprising of interest in where we come from as black people. Like, that's okay. You can be pro-black without being anti-anything else. You can be that. You, you can have the drive and determination to understand about our history and try to empathize and try to articulate to people about the, the pain that's been inflicted upon our people for a very long time. And I feel like that point has just, it just got missed in the way this has blown up.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  I mean, it's blown up. I mean, even, what they say always, the best way to, to speak to a degree, some truth is through humor. I mean, even like, humor should be the one thing where it feels like nobody's off limits.

• 25:48Channing Crowder?

  It's taking humor away.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. It even seemed like what happened with Dave Chappelle. And how he went about it and how that, that's a form of attack. And you're sitting there saying, well, that's, I've watched him talk about, you know, Bigsby, the, what is it? The white, black supremacy? Yeah.

• 26:03Channing Crowder?

  Black supremacists.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  And people were laughing at that. That was funny. White people, Asian people, black people. Did anybody ask how that made us feel? No, it was humor, right? So. It's just, once again, it's so complex.

• 26:19Ryan Clark?

  It is.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  It's so challenging to dig into each topic that people just don't want. We don't spend time on topics anymore, which goes back to that original question. Did you even watch it?

• 26:28Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  A lot of people didn't even watch it.

• 26:30Channing Crowder?

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• 27:13Channing Crowder?

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• 27:51Ryan Clark?

  When you look at how to move forward, you just made a very important point, and I just want to give my thoughts on it. You spoke about being pro-black and not being anti-anything. A large part of our perceptions of anything that we read, that we see, that we experience, is our experiences.

• 28:14Ryan Clark?

  The reason that seeming pro-black would have to be anti-anything is because throughout history, whenever someone was pro a race, they were anti-everything else. White power did not mean black power, or doesn't equate to black power. What white power was, was that my skin color alone makes me superior to everyone else. And because they feel that way about it, then, oh, black power must mean the same thing. Being pro-black must be the same exact thing as being pro-white was. Because being pro-white meant that if it's not white, it's not right.

• 28:56Ryan Clark?

  Where it's a very different thing, but when you come from that frame of mind and that perspective, you think everybody else is like you. Oh, if they love, if they love this, they can't love anything else. And I think a lot of times, that's the issue of not being able to have conversation. Because if you ask me, I'd explain it to you. The same way that throughout history, in America, they've explained to us what white people have thought the whole time. What they've done, what they've experienced, what they've been through, what they've created, what they've stolen and made their own. And I think for, for us, that's where the search begins, because you've never tried

• 29:37Ryan Clark?

  to teach us about where we come from and how that can be as beautiful as where you do. But in, in thinking-

• 29:44Channing Crowder?

  To that point, RC, the black lives matter, all lives matter conversation, that's what I thought of. All lives do matter.

• 29:51Ryan Clark?

  Yes, they do.

• 29:53Channing Crowder?

  They do.

• 29:53Ryan Clark?

  We just said black lives matter too.

• 29:55Channing Crowder?

  They matter too, but when you've been marginalized and you're 400 years behind the, the white race, why can't you put that on a pedestal? Why can't you celebrate the black culture? Why can't you celebrate the black heritage? And why can't you search for what that black heritage is? And that's what I articulate to people when the, that, that conversation, all lives matter, black lives matter thing. Listen, we're just saying, can we be equal to the white power, black power?

• 30:28Channing Crowder?

  We're not trying to take over the fucking world. We're trying to catch up.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Catch up.

• 30:33Channing Crowder?

  We're trying to catch up.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:35Channing Crowder?

  What's the problem in that?

• 30:37Speaker 01

  I'll tell you, one of my really good friends is a CEO of a Fortune 500 company. And, you know, you can only imagine during pandemic slash George Floyd, how many conversations I had with executives that reached out to me to be on their boards. It was mind blowing. I was like, damn. I've had 10 plus companies ask me to sit on boards. Like, should I take advantage of the opportunity because there is misrepresentation of people like you and I in these boardrooms? Yeah, I should. But also like, is, are you doing this because that's truly what you want to do? Are you doing it with intent? Are you doing it because now it's mandated because society's forcing you or asking you to do that?

• 31:22Speaker 01

  And this CEO said, no, like when I go out, I have to hire people of color with intent. And that's okay. And it was a very uncomfortable, comfortable conversation. I think we need to have more of that. People just need to recognize that this is coming from a place of anger or hate when we speak. It's coming from a place of history and understanding of what we've been through and for you to empathize with that. And then meet me in the middle.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Have you spoken to Kyrie since all of this started? I have not. I reached out to him, have gotten no response. And that's okay. I got, all of it is, um, all of it is different. You know, every relationship, like I, relationship I had with Kevin Durant on that team is very different. My relationship with Kyrie is different. The relationship that I have with Joe and Clara Si, different. Right? And even that's going to deserve a conversation. We're eventually supposed to speak. When that happens, I don't know, but I, I also have courtside seats. So, you know, for me, I, I think there's a lot that's going on just about where our country is and

• 32:40Speaker 01

  I think also people looking at their situation about what happens over in China and the relationship between media and China. We've seen that with Daryl Morey. I feel like I have to be extremely strategic with what I say and how I say it. And when I say it.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Because I've been put in a lot of precarious situations. And it's hard to thread a needle every time, man. It's tiring. It really is. And there were a lot of things that happened during George Floyd, where I didn't feel like I could talk about before, and then I was allowed to speak about, while other things were happening in other countries that I didn't feel like I had the same leeway to speak about. It's fucking frustrating.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  That's hard, man.

• 33:33Channing Crowder?

  We're athletes. And it's a... There's always something you're trying to get across. There's always something you're trying to achieve.

• 33:43Channing Crowder?

  Your goal in this, is it, is it still there? Your goal in having that voice, is it still there? Is it going in the right direction?

• 33:51Speaker 01

  You know, I used to think, back in the day before I almost passed, that like I, I had to have this sense of direction, about like who I wanted to be and what I wanted to stand for. But it was more, I guess, my, my athlete mentality. And I think what I've learned since is that I've grown in so many different ways, that I'm multi hyphenate. And that the direction of my voice, and what I want to achieve as it relates to leaving my mark in this world, is going exactly where God's purpose of where it was supposed to be.

• 34:23Ryan Clark?

  I love that.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Like this is, that's why I go back to purpose, Jenny. I talked about this before, man, like, and I'm up here, sitting here saying I have all the answers. I do not. I'm not up here saying that I'm trying to become the leader. I'm just being me. I'm trying to speak about the things I don't know, and ask for the right guidance. But I'm up here trying to learn. I'm trying to read, and I'm trying to have conversations, and I'm trying to bring people together, while also at the same time, I'm trying to create more positions for people that look like you and I, and RC, to be in positions to hold other people accountable, to create generational wealth. So in 20, 30 years, we can sit up here and say,

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Like J.R. Smith said one time, man, it's um,

• 35:15Speaker 01

  you got people that got net worths over two, three hundred million dollars. When do we start doing more group economics? That we can own a lot more? And that we can reach back and help and elevate knowledge wise and help uplift? And create more equality for us all? That's important to me. My kids are mixed, but my kids are seen black. That's where I am and I'm very comfortable. Even though everybody tells me be careful.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Like that's what a lot, ever since I made that post? The amount of people that told me to be careful?

• 35:55Speaker 01

  It's been overwhelming. It's actually scary. Like even when I posted just being on, you know, like The Breakfast Club back in the day and talked about Poweronomics, a book I read by Claude Anderson. Told multiple, be careful about talking about that publicly. It can insinuate, you know, anger. I'm like, I'm just talking about what I've learned. So, like I said, it's a needle that needs to be threaded.

• 36:23Ryan Clark?

  We're speaking about where your voice is today. Anybody who grew up in your era of basketball, as I did as a fan, they understand that every time you say, when I almost passed away, what you mean. Like I, I could go right back to it. Every time. When you take off on a motorcycle, you rev your engine so you could see the exhaust. What was it? A Yamaha?

• 36:50Speaker 01

  R6.

• 36:50Ryan Clark?

  R6 with red accents, I believe you wrote in uh, Life is not an accident. And you hit the pole. You say it's slow motion. You're spinning in the air. You're on the ground, pounding the grass, saying, I threw it all away. And you say, Kevin, your manager at the time is, is running towards you. And doing what we all do when one of our friends or our loved ones is in a bad spot, lying to him. Telling you it's gonna be okay. Uh, you not being able to feel the lower half of your body at first and then as you wrote in your book, then it turned into like it was on fire. At that, at that moment.

• 37:34Ryan Clark?

  How could you see anything else but what you were in? Because you turned that into this. But if you take us back there, how could you ever imagine any of this could exist?

• 37:49Speaker 01

  I didn't. I'm not sure I would be sitting with you guys if I was just another Hooper. I might went on to make 100 million, 200 million, but there's no way I would have any depth. Like, I think one of the things that people don't understand, but you guys do, I don't know how you guys felt this way, but I'm sure you had to. Remember when David Stern called my name in the draft, right? And it was like, "The second pick, the Chicago Bulls select Jay Williams." And as I was walking up to the podium to shake his hand, I'm looking back on my family and I'm like, "Yo, we got drafted." Like, we made it.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Like, all the conversations I heard my dad about being the only black executive or Amex and the challenges he had and growing up the stories and my mom being from Illyria, Ohio and talk about the struggles that she had with her mom. It was like, "Yo, we have made it." So I think in that moment, it's the level of disappointment, RC, because I love hoop, I love basketball. It was more about the opportunity I had that due to my own ego, I put myself in that position to jeopardize not only my dreams, but my parents' dreams.

• 39:15Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends, like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an Ultra. Because it's not just a superior-like beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  I think that that was the thing that led me to depression more than anything. And also, I was what I did. I was a basketball player. I never really had any experiences that forced me to think about who I wanted to be or what I wanted to stand for. I was too busy trying to achieve my goal.

• 40:03Channing Crowder?

  With that depression, because I've heard you talk about that a number of times, but I've never, never heard you go into it. You say, "I'm depressed, I'm depressed." What did that depression, what was that? Like, what was the worst? Everybody talk about rock bottom. You say, "I was depressed," and you admit that. What brought that on? And where was the worst place you've ever been?

• 40:24Speaker 01

  I mean, so we walk down the street, do people recognize you to a degree and say, "What's up?"

• 40:28Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Like, there's a level of appreciation for that. I'm sure, like, we all get endorphins off of that, right? So, that's all I had known before. Like, "Yo, you, you two-time national player?" No!

• 40:39Channing Crowder?

  I'd have done the same thing if I saw you. I did the same thing when you walked in.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  I didn't think about myself like that, champ. Bro, that's how we met! I was like, "Jay Will, dog." I was like, "Man, remember Juan Dixon and you?" Like, I was saying, "Hey, I was going through it all, dog." That's the only way I had known life to be. And I worked my ass off for it. So, for then all of a sudden, for me not to know who I was without what I did, because I wasn't sure, like, I mean, I got this long ass scar, man, that comes all the way up to here. I got scars on the inside. I still got drop foot when I work. Like, I split my pelvic symphysis open fourteen, fifteen inches. My lower portion of my body didn't work for multiple years, which was humbling and, like, humiliating within itself for a very long time. It was, that look went from like, "Yo, you that bad boy?"

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Like, yo, you, damn, you fucked up.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Like that within itself, man, was debilitating to me. I didn't know how to, yet alone navigate other people away from that conversation, how to get myself out of it. So, you know how we are. We are obsessive compulsive people. You know, when I go on set, and if I don't say something right, I'm like, "God damn it, I knew I should have..." Just like you were talking about, RC. I'm like, "I get so mad." Steven A's ass jumped in. I knew I should have just shut his ass down. And, like, you start going over craze in your mind about how you should have did it. And for me, how could I not live in that relentless cycle over and over and over again about, "What about my ego at that time didn't feel like it had enough?"

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Like, it was this insatiable appetite that I had to do things my way because I wanted to prove to people that I was my own man, I can make my own decisions. And people also don't talk about that power dynamic. Like, your mom and dad, your family, they support you all up until this point, but then my mom and dad, they work for me. Like, it also brings a lot of things to the forefront emotionally, right? Some issues with my dad. We had some domestic violence in my house. I didn't really understand how it even got to that point. But there's a power play here, man. So for me, it was all about, "Who has the power? Oh, I got the power." So that led me to, almost past, so that led me to a crazy state. Two stakes at suicide that were unsuccessful.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  So, I don't think it was until I learned that other people had similar pain to what I had. They just didn't know it. Because they could suppress it. They could just blend in with society and keep moving. Whereas me, I was forced to address it because people forced me to talk about it. "Yo, so what happened?" Like, I'm at a bar trying to have a drink. RC, I'm trying to have one of our little beers, you know, I sit down. "Jay Will." "Yo, take me through it." I'm like, "Damn, you see me here on the date? You gonna ask me to take me through it?" Right. I can't even take myself through it. Yeah. You know? So, I think it was just, I think that was the first step in the process. So, RC, like, fast forward in like five or six years afterwards.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  Where I was like, okay, like my lawyer went through a really bad divorce where his wife just left him for somebody that worked at a hedge fund. Just came home, all her stuff was gone. I was like, damn, that's your accident. You've been, that's your, that's your accident. Right? Or somebody tears their ACL, like, that could be, if that's the worst thing that's ever happened to you, that's easy for me to say, well, that's not the worst that can happen to you, but for you, that might be the worst thing that ever happened to you. That might be your accident. That might send you into a state of depression. You might feel like you never got a chance to achieve your dreams due to your knee neck coming back and bouncing back to the same degree you used to be. So, once again, that connective tissue, that was the first time I started to see it. Where I'm like, oh, this is the way for people to understand my pain because we all got it to some form or fashion.

• 44:33Ryan Clark?

  That rehabilitation process, because you mentioned the re, you know, you mentioned the physical injuries, right? We all know, man, when, when something is, when something is taken away from you, like ball, that's like death. Like, like, it truly is. I don't think people understand the mourning period it is. I try to explain to folks all the time, my fascination with football, right? Because people, you know, like people are like, oh, it's a game, you play with a ball. No.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  It's life.

• 45:08Ryan Clark?

  It was my life. The first time anybody ever gave it to me, I fell in love with. Floyd's been on the show. And if you ever see Floyd's grandson on social media, he just runs around in boxing gloves, punching things. You know what I'm saying? And like, there, there was a video of him the other day that goes viral. He's standing in front of the, I guess the punching bag or whatever, and he's, you know what I mean? Like, nobody taught him to do that. He saw his, he saw his grandfather do it. And now he's falling in love with it. Everybody in my family played football. That's what we did. And honestly, you almost felt like if you couldn't play, clearly yo daddy ain't yo daddy. Because all of us could do it. Yeah, to get a blood test. Yeah, like, that ain't, that is not my cousin. That ain't my cousin. He not my cousin.

• 45:52Ryan Clark?

  If we play, if we, if we, if we pick a team, and I don't pick you, yo daddy ain't my daddy brother. You know what I'm saying? And so, and you, and you lose that, Jake, and you have to deal with the mental anguish. You have to deal with the emotional anguish. And you're putting and piecing yourself back together. When did it truly click for you that?

• 46:17Ryan Clark?

  Jason David Williams.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Full government name.

• 46:21Ryan Clark?

  Is dead.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  You give a social security number too?

• 46:24Ryan Clark?

  Nah, I didn't know it. If they had it on the internet, I would have looked it up though. And now Jay Williams has to move on and become someone different.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Writing my book, like really writing it, like chapter by chapter, and dealing with my own issues and trying to

• 46:49Speaker 01

  undress myself in the public to a degree. It was the most cathartic thing I've ever done for myself in my life. Because I had to send my book to different people. And first off, my book, people didn't want to publish it.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  And I was like, that's such a disservice to the opportunity that I've been given. Because I mean, we're taking around to all these different publishing companies and they're like, whoa, if you just wait 10, 15 years, we need this book to have an ending towards it. I'm like, nah, this shit right here is the beginning. Like this is another life and that life deserves to get documented. But also, I have to tell what I deem to be my truth, that's important to me. And I think going through that process, RC,

• 47:38Speaker 01

  I saw, you know, when you're, I didn't spend a lot of time reflecting or thinking. It has to be similar in football because the game moves so fast that you're always on to, I gotta get myself, like, oh, I missed that fumble, but it's third down now, third and six, we gotta get a stop. Right? Or quarterback throws a bad pass, okay, we turn the ball over, that was interception. You know, next time I get the ball, like, I gotta get myself in that play. So you, you got quick memory loss.

• 48:05Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  I lived a lot of my life that way. So I didn't really spend time reflecting on relationships, why I moved certain ways, why I said certain things. I was just going. So I think being forced to address that by myself and talk myself through that was the first time I ever spent time with myself, dog. I never spent time with myself to know who I was and who I wanted to be. I was always going.

• 48:32Channing Crowder?

  The domestic violence thing, man, you said it earlier. I've heard you talk, it's in the book, and I heard you talk about it in another interview that I watched. A lot of us are creatures of our environment, you know, nature nurture type thing. Just as a teaching moment, how do you break that? How do you break, like, you're seeing domestic violence? And that's not the right way to go about life. That's not the right way to go about marriage. I've never seen it, and I don't, you know, not gonna hit my wife. But to see that in your household and now break that for your kids. What's the thought process there? How do you break that for people that are watching?

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Damn, that's a deep question, Shannon. It's always hard because my relationship with my father has flourished so much since we were forced to address some things. I didn't really understand how that could even happen, you know? But I still love my father. My father has sacrificed a lot for me to be in his position that I am today. And without his tutelage, without his leadership, I'm nowhere close to the husband or father that I am today.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  And I still have a lot to learn. But we learn a lot from people. We learn a lot about what we want to be. We learn a lot about what we don't want to be.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  And I don't look at any human being as perfect. Now, that's not acceptable. Domestic violence is not acceptable. But it's still my family. And my mother and my father are still together. And that is something that will always linger in their relationship. And I think for my wife and I, having active conversations and actually allocating time for where we both came from and what we learned from it is so important to where we want to go.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  You can even hear my voice, like, it's hard for me even to address because words have repercussions. And my kids will read about that in my book. My kids will see this interview. And what I would tell my kids is that life isn't this or that. Life is very complicated. And that wasn't right. That was very wrong, and it changed me as a young kid, seeing my mom pick me up at my school with her face beaded and her eyes black and her lips swollen. Changed me as a young man.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  It made me want to protect my mother at all costs. Almost stayed in Jersey to go to school and turned down an opportunity to go to Duke just because I wanted to be there in case something happens. I couldn't even articulate that at that time. So that's still something that I live with. It's still something that when tensions get high between my parents, I feel like I need to diffuse. But at the end of the day, I have to respect their relationship and that they choose to still be together. And I love them individually. And I want them to make the best decisions for them. I think there's also a part of me that I've learned as being the only child is that I...

• 52:29Speaker 01

  I was brought here to create my own.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  And I lived with a lot of that pain for a very long time. And now what I do is when I feel that and I sense it, I redirect all my energy towards what's right in front of me. And that is my opportunity to create what that experience is going to be like for my children and how they're going to see me interact with their mother and how they're going to see us handle confrontation and feel us talk through that and set an example for them on how it should be done.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  I think that's the only thing I can say about you. And like it's, um, it still hurts me to think about that because my mother is still in pain from it. And that that will never, she will never be released from that, nor will my father in his own way.

• 53:18Ryan Clark?

  That is probably, I think, the first time we've had someone go into depth with their experiences in that. My parents are still married and I think as most parents try to do, they they try to keep things away from us. If there if there's things that continue to happen or if there are things that become habitual, they can't. And you know it. I grew up in a very interesting space where my mom and dad were my best friends.

• 53:55Ryan Clark?

  And they probably talked to me like I was way too adult. You know, and Chan's met my my pops, man, just like I tell people all the time. I like his daddy more than him. Yeah.

• 54:06Ryan Clark?

  That was but like, that's like, that's legit what everybody says. And very much like you say, though, like, I know he's not perfect. You know, and my mom sometimes felt like she was. And when she would tell me the things she dealt with and the things that she went through internally and continuing to find her way, it was the day, those were the days I realized everyone was human. And I think all we can do is take as much from what we learned. And usually what you see is people go one way or the other. There are people who grew up seeing that and that becomes a part of who they are. And they continue the cycle of whatever it is.

• 54:47Ryan Clark?

  And then there are other people who say, because I saw that and I see the pain that both my loved ones are in. I'm in no way trying to diminish your mother's pain, but like you said, your father also.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  He's in pain as well.

• 54:59Ryan Clark?

  Has to live with that.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:00Ryan Clark?

  When you look at your family, you know, you mentioned, you know, your new daughter, Penelope and your wife and, you know, you, you did it the right way though. Like you got married late and you got married when you were ready. And now you have these young kids and this wife. What has that changed about you though?

• 55:25Speaker 01

  I mean, my wife forces me to address stuff directly. Like there's no, I don't know if you, if y'all felt this before. Here's my wife in a nutshell though. My wife is like, oh, I just saw you sit up there and talk to Ryan Clark for an hour. We haven't talked about that. I'm like, damn.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  I meant to talk to you about, yeah. Like, but i- i- it's personal for her. You know, for us, there was a lot of my wife, even from the beginning, that would have real conversations. But like real, because I came off a relationship that was extremely volatile. And volatility and Jason David Williams, nope. Don't go together because I felt like that was leading me down a path where there was a lot of random stuff happening that I, that was turning into a reflection on me. And it would take me to places where I'm like, that's not who I am. I, I gotta, and move in a direction that I know is who I want to be. And I think that was important.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  I think my wife is one of the strongest people I know. I mean, look, man, I'm gonna sit over here and tell you, like, you guys all got kids. Like to, to watch all three of my kids come out of my wife's body. And to watch her now, like, you know, I get a little bit frustrated when I live in this world. Like, I know being a man is being a man, but like this male egocentric world, like, oh, Jay, you have three kids. You know, things are tough, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you something I never told anybody. I felt like I was reprimanded for taking paternity leave.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Think about that. I felt like having my second child during a pandemic, while being on the road, working my ass off to get to where I'm at,

• 57:16Speaker 01

  that taking a month off after I caught COVID, quarantined during NBA Finals,

• 57:25Speaker 01

  that there was something wrong with me because I wanted to spend time with my son.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  I just had a son.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  I almost passed away. Do you know how long I've thought about if I bring a young black man into this world?

• 57:47Speaker 01

  What kind of weight that has on me? Now, I had a lot of weight with my daughter, too.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  But this, to me, it was like, I want to spend time with my family. And I watched my wife go through breastfeeding every two and a half hours. And all of a sudden, like, it was wrong of me to be tired or to be an active participant in helping my wife raise my family. Like, that was used against me. Like, I don't like to work. I'm like, hold on a second. I love to grind. I love to hustle more than anybody. I'm out here trying to create enterprise. I slept in my car to do ESPN U games and then turn around to fly back on a connection flight to stay up until 2 o'clock in the morning to do it again. I'm doing a morning show that requires me to leave every day at 3:30 in the morning from my house

• 58:37Speaker 01

  to be on air for five and a half, six hours, and then turn around to come back during the pandemic to do NBA Countdown until 1 o'clock in the morning. Should I be rewarded? That I want to spend some time with my family? But we don't live in that society no more. You can't be an active father. That gets used against you, Jay. You didn't have the baby. Oh, you didn't have the baby? What are you talking about? That's the argument. You didn't have the baby? You ain't breastfeeding. You ain't got no memory. You ain't have memory glands, whatever the hell they call it. But me staying up with my wife, bringing her all of her pumping material every two and a half, three hours, me checking in on my child and sleeping in my child's room, you know, me trying to bring family members in, dealing with their dynamics because they bring different

• 59:21Speaker 01

  feelings and emotions to the table, energies that you have to balance. Me dealing with my wife who's going through postpartum.

• 59:30Channing Crowder?

  My wife is just as determined and just as hungry to be in business like I am. She had to take a backseat. Should I not be involved with her about how she's dealing with that aspect of her emotions? That's my partner. I don't even know how that's gonna be treated when people hear about that. You know what I mean? Like, so, again, that's not me being less of a man, that's me being more of a man. That's me being an active father, an active husband, and that should be rewarded, not reprimanded. Yep, I took six weeks.

• 1:00:08Channing Crowder?

  With Chad, I have a two-year-old, I took six weeks off of work, and I felt the same way. It's like, we talk about being a strong, strong black man, a strong man and all that stuff. That's being a strong man. That's me being able to stay up all night so my wife can get eight hours of sleep, because she's been pumping and breastfeeding all day. That's a strong man, and that's what I think a lot of people don't, don't, don't wanna put on a pedestal of what a strong man is. Make money, support the family, you know, have insurance and all. What about being there for your family? So, bro, from my side, you took a month, I took a month and a damn half when I had my last child. ZipRecruiter is amazing, it's like in sports.

• 1:00:50Channing Crowder?

  If you're a GM, you gotta do everything to get your players, to get the best talent you need. ZipRecruiter can be your GM for your business. They're gonna find the best people, make it easy for you to continue to thrive in your business. And it's tough out there, you gotta find the best person. You're always looking for new talent, you're looking for it to upgrade your business. Upgrade with ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter's an upgrade, you can upgrade with ZipRecruiter. Let them be your GM and build your team. In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. When you're ready to build a winning team, let ZipRecruiter help you build the perfect roster. In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

• 1:01:34Channing Crowder?

  When you're ready to build a winning team, let ZipRecruiter help you build the perfect roster. You can try it for free, that's right, for free today at ziprecruiter.com/draftkings. That's ziprecruiter.com/dr-a-f-t-k-i-n-g-s. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.

• 1:01:57Ryan Clark?

  I know like two people in the world who truly don't care about what people think of them. I work with one all the time and one of them raised me. Like be honest, that's why they get along so well. I love them. Like those are the two people that I know like truly don't care. And I was struggling with it because I was like, why when people tweet me or say these things, why do I have an issue with it? Like, why does it bother me? And I realized what my problem was. I didn't have a problem of being liked, disliked, whatever it was. I didn't have an issue with that. What I had an issue with was being misunderstood. Right? So if I say something and you can run it back to me and what you digest it is exactly what I intended

• 1:02:42Ryan Clark?

  and you say, but you're still a piece of crap and I hate you. I can go. Cool. Got it. I respect that. Like, we ain't the same type of people. That's okay with me. But when somebody says, well, you said this and you meant this and you did this. And that's why I used to get so much Twitter beef. Like, if you saw it, it wasn't about what the person's final decision about how they felt of me was. It was about how they got to it. I would only defend my points. No, I didn't say this or no, I didn't say that or no, I didn't mean this or that never happened. And I would quote myself and do all this stuff. And I was like, why in the hell am I wasting my day arguing with this idiot? And so what I had to learn was go do it for me.

• 1:03:27Ryan Clark?

  And honestly, it was 2016. It was when the protests were going on in the NFL. And, uh, you know, carries on to 17 and we're in a production meeting and they asked me a question. You know how it goes. And they say, you know, we're gonna bring this up. And it was about the protest and something that was said by the president and this and this. So I gave my answer. And their next question was, are you gonna say that on TV?

• 1:04:27Ryan Clark?

  And I was like, yes, absolutely. And their answer was, well, we're not gonna ask you. And I said, okay, that's cool. Because I was, I wanted to be me. 2020, you fast-forward it. George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, we've gone through so much, like, times are changing and...

• 1:04:49Ryan Clark?

  Every time I was on Get Up, every time I was on First Take, somebody would call me afterwards. "Gosh, your voice is so needed, thank you so much." And I would be very honest, because you know me. I said the exact same thing four years ago and none of y'all wanted to hear it. But, for me, that was the validation I needed, because it was the validation of me. I had said to me that everything you've always been is not right or wrong. Everything you've always been is you. And if I'm comfortable with me, then why does it matter what other people think of me? And, fast-forward that, though. The freeing thing about that is,

• 1:05:35Ryan Clark?

  now when I'm uncomfortable with me, I know I'm dead-ass wrong. Right? Now, when, when somebody, when somebody does read it back to me, and when they read it back, it's read the same way I said it, and I'm hearing it from a different person's perspective, I'm like, "Yeah, that's not right. You need to educate yourself, you need to be more aware, you need to listen, you need to change." And I think that's the way I approach it now, is that unless I get to sit here and talk like this, I'll never be able to say enough right here, or in the 24 seconds they give me on TV.

• 1:06:19Ryan Clark?

  But I know what I think and I know what I feel. You, you shouldn't even answer it, cuz like you really don't care. Like I've never, it is.

• 1:06:27Channing Crowder?

  It, it, it's freeing not to care.

• 1:06:30Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:30Channing Crowder?

  It is. Not to give a damn about what people think about you is freeing. And like RC said, honestly, bro, if you would've hit me and tell me something, I would listen. Cuz I respect you as a man, just like RC. We've actually talked about, like RC's checked me before and I've told him what I say. I said, "Bro, if that came out of anybody else's mouth, I wouldn't have listened to it." But you my dude and, and I care about your opinion of me and I care about your opinion of the world. But yeah, all that Twitter, all the people, everybody that tweets or Instagrams me, I think they are a 60-year-old man living in their parents' basement. I honestly, Jay, will, I, I.

• 1:07:12Ryan Clark?

  Oh, no, I know. You don't have to say honestly. I feel, I see it in your face.

• 1:07:15Channing Crowder?

  I see a dude eating ramen noodles and Cheetos next to him in a dark basement tweeting me. That's what I see. And I'm like, and when they, when they say something crazy to me, I say, "Meet me at the Walmart on Griffin and Flamingo." It's a Walmart five minutes from my house. If you wanna call me a bitch, call me a bitch to my face.

• 1:07:32Ryan Clark?

  They won't do it.

• 1:07:33Channing Crowder?

  No one's ever took me up on the offer. But that's what I think. Like, I think it's a very freeing thing. I respect social media. I love the followers and all. Like, I understand.

• 1:07:42Ryan Clark?

  The branding.

• 1:07:42Channing Crowder?

  The branding and what it does for us. But yeah, when somebody starts talking crazy.

• 1:07:47Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Channing Crowder?

  It's cool. And Freddie and Ryan, I argue with them all the time. I'm like, "Who cares what John 45677 says?" And RC will be here. I'm like, "Who gives a damn about John 45677?"

• 1:08:04Ryan Clark?

  I've gotten better.

• 1:08:06Channing Crowder?

  You are progressing.

• 1:08:07Ryan Clark?

  The only thing that I've done since this that I argued about was Russ. That's it.

• 1:08:14Channing Crowder?

  Yes.

• 1:08:14Ryan Clark?

  The reason was because it was, and I don't, I don't in any way want to like disregard any other people. It was our people and they were, and they weren't wrong, but they misunderstood us.

• 1:08:29Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:30Ryan Clark?

  And so that was like, and too, I was defending you. Like I, I didn't care what they thought about me. I was like, "No, that's not what he freaking said." That's not what he meant. I think though, Jay, like the, the question. I would have to ask you, like, earlier you mentioned being called the Uncle Tom. Uh, we had swag on the show, and he actually laughed. Like, I was called an Uncle Tom and a racist about the exact same thing. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  That was a possible.

• 1:09:00Ryan Clark?

  Oh, no, that didn't work. That didn't work. You know what I'm saying? And I was like, guys, I can't be both of them simultaneously.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Ryan Clark?

  You know, you, you grew up much like me. Like, I went to a private school. You know, but my friends didn't. Um, I, I have always spoken this way. But I'm from New Orleans. You've met people from New Orleans before, like, not all of them speak this way in their accents. Like, I go home now, and people are like, where are you from? You know, where did you live? Where did you grow up? And now, when you say you, you've searched for an identity, you've searched for a foundation, you're continuing to try to find out, you know, what it is that makes you you. That transition coming forward on TV, how hard has that been? Right? Because, you know, you heard, like, Jalen talk about Grant from Duke, you know?

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  Well, Jalen, that was my teammate. That was my, I mean, my, first time I ever, I missed some free throws down the stretch, we won the game, Jalen called me a choke artist in the media the next day. Like, so obviously, I, I felt a lot of that from J. Rose, but I, I recognize that being black isn't being monolithic, man. Like, it's, it's not one thing. It's a variety of things. And I even launched a show on NPR called The Limits, because I wanted to explore about what being black meant to different people. People from Africa, people from different parts of the country, and how that resonated with them and their upbringing. So, I think as it relates to me a media man, I think one of the games I've learned how to play? I try to be surgical.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  I try to plant seeds. I try to create a web and see if people pay attention. Like, one of the webs I can, one of the seeds I planted, I was like, alright, so the first day, even on the Kyrie tip, I was like, oh, I redirected the conversation towards the platform. I'm like, so a lot of people were angry. Where's the anger here? And now it feels like people are like, well, hold on a second. Barnes and Noble is pulling off the documentary, and it allows you to question other different things. But then I, I want to now take that and say,

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  To all the people that are angered about this being on the platform, how about the thousands of pieces of racial tropes that have already existed and been profited and promoted for a very long time? That none of you guys have aimed any of your attention towards? How about the tropes towards black people? That people have laughed at, created movies? And I'm not gonna sit up here and say that a lot of it even hasn't been self-inflicted. You know, in my house, like, we weren't allowed to use the N-word and call each other those kind of names because that was seen as a derogatory thing. And also, when you use it, you allow other people, or you give them so consciously the permission to potentially use it. So my dad was like, "Nah, we just... nah.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  So, like, some of that is on us, too. And let's be real about that. Right? Like, so, when we're selling our music, and I understand it's part of the culture, like, but when that perpetuates a narrative that we want to change and be at the forefront of, we have to look ourselves in the mirror. Now, we can force other people to, too, but we have to do the same in return to understand where we really want to go. I think that's important, man.

• 1:12:04Ryan Clark?

  The conversation got so good, you know, you come in with like this outline, and you're like, you know, yeah, me and Chan in the car, okay, I'm gonna hit this Chan, and then depending on what he say, you know, then we gonna flip it. Jada asked questions, like, we did-

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  I can't help it, because I feel like I'm kicking it with y'all for the long run.

• 1:12:21Ryan Clark?

  I love it. So like, but I've been wanting to ask you this, bro. Like, we always talked about like, how I saw your game, explosive, quick, because you, you cover the league right now, man. And we had this guy on the show. I watched Ja against the Pelicans, and they lost. Right?

• 1:12:39Ryan Clark?

  One, he got the, his back turned, he know the dude from the throw it in, turns around, catches it, hits the behind the back, looks around, the little, the finger roll in the lane. Then he goes, he hit him with the, "I'm coming here, I switch it to the left." Yum, half-court shot, all these things happen. When you look at him, and you think about the J. Wills, the D. Roses, the Russell Westbrook's, and how this game is continuing to go, is he a guy who could be and will be the face of the league?

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  He is the face of the league. He's face of the league, man.

• 1:13:13Ryan Clark?

  Ooh, Ja Morant, right now?

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  So, a couple of things. Let's get it, let's dig into this, right?

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Obviously, the league is an international brand.

• 1:13:23Channing Crowder?

  Right.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Right, so you saw Giannis do this the other day. He gave his international team, I think it was him, Joel Embiid, Nikola Jokic, Luka Doncic, and Evan Fournier against any NBA team. Give them the business. I, you put, I don't care who you put, like LeBron, all those guys, KD, it would be one hell of a game. I understand the international presence, right? But I also understand, like, I came from playing for New Jersey. And when you're around culture, culture feels a different kind of way. The culture of the United States, two different things. You have international brand, then you have the culture brand.

• 1:13:59Channing Crowder?

  You're right.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  You tell me Ja Morant ain't the face of the culture brand.

• 1:14:02Channing Crowder?

  So.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  You tell me about the way he, the way he moves, the way he plays.

• 1:14:07Channing Crowder?

  The way he celebrates.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  The way he celebrates with his teammates.

• 1:14:10Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  The way he owns the city of Memphis, dog. We're talking about Memphis, Tennessee. He's like, this is my city. Like, in an age and day where everybody wants to jump out and go to the major markets, he's like, nah, this is it right here. Like, that says something to me. That speaks volumes to me. Nobody even knew who Desmond Bain was. Desmond Bain is ballin', but like, Ja's like, yeah, let's go. Let's, let's create that. Like, that says something about what I deem to be the face of the league. And I, I know like LeBron and KD and Steph, like, obviously Steph, you can say,

• 1:14:51Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  Steph, the Americanized, I, I, I got all, and Steph is brilliant. Best player, one of the best players in the game ever. But to me, like, where the game is going, that's him. That's him to me.

• 1:15:03Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, I was gonna ask about Bron and him. Like, I don't think Ja gets the credit nationally that he deserves.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Cause he's in Memphis.

• 1:15:11Channing Crowder?

  But isn't that a flaw? Like, if, if Ja was in LA, if Ja was in New York?

• 1:15:19Channing Crowder?

  He would be a bigger, he would be bigger. He would be the face of the NBA. I can't, I disagree with you that Ja is the face of the NBA. I really don't think he is.

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  Who is?

• 1:15:28Channing Crowder?

  LeBron James still?

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  I mean, of course. I'm, I'm just saying for like the face that I see coming, to be that.

• 1:15:35Channing Crowder?

  The future?

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I think the problem is this.

• 1:15:38Channing Crowder?

  But can he be, but can he be in Memphis though? I, the, the small markets, bro. I really do not believe in small markets.

• 1:15:44Ryan Clark?

  What he said to me though, is probably the most telling. He said, there's the, the face of the United States and the culture, right? And then there's international, because it is an international game. The reason it's an international game is because of the Dream Team, right? The Dream Team is made and now kids get to see Michael Jordan up close and all of those things. Michael Jordan was the face of the United States, the face of the culture, and the international face of basketball.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  All three, holy Trinity.

• 1:16:12Ryan Clark?

  Right? I don't think that every, anybody ever gets to be any of those, because now the international game has grown. The United States chooses their face differently, and the culture, we brand our own. You don't have to be the best at it.

• 1:16:26Channing Crowder?

  It was Jordan, and I would say then Kobe.

• 1:16:29Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:30Channing Crowder?

  Shaq was, Shaq was that guy.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:16:33Channing Crowder?

  And now Bron.

• 1:16:33Ryan Clark?

  See, I don't think Shaq was, I don't think Shaq was ever that guy.

• 1:16:35Channing Crowder?

  You don't think Shaq was that, that, but I don't think Ja can get to where Jordan, Kobe, and Bron are. I don't know if Ja can get there.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Bron's turned into like one of the founding fathers to me. Like that's what I, like, like it's really, it's like, face carried that mantle for so long, man. I know Jalen said, don't use Mount Rushmore, but if you're putting, like if you're putting faces up of, of the NBA.

• 1:16:55Channing Crowder?

  You put him right there. Come on, man.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. I mean, I, I love Bron too. I, I love Bron. It just, and it's still what he's doing at the age of 38 is unprecedented, man. It's crazy. But you're just looking at that next wave that's about to hit hard. That's why I said like the face of the culture. For me, I have to be like this, right? Like, there are certain people where I'm like, when I see LeBron, I'm like, okay, like it's LeBron. Like I'm like, it's LeBron, cool. Like KD, I'm like.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  It's KD, KD's seven feet tall, like giving me all that. I'm like, damn, that's not real to me. That's like some alien stuff. I see Ja, I'm like, oh, I wouldn't know Ja, Ja was walking down the street, had a cap on, I'm like, there goes that little fella. Then I go, I see him on the court. I'm like, oh my God. He up there like with the, he's doing alien stuff in the normal human body. Like that's not, like even Luca, you ever seen Luca straight up? Luca's 6'7". Luca big, he move, like Ja seems like the common everyday folk that's sky and in the air doing all, there's a Michael Jordan-esque to him.

• 1:17:56Channing Crowder?

  I love it.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Now, I'm not saying that translates into white America the same way others do. But I know what part of America that I was born and raised in, it translates to that.

• 1:18:08Ryan Clark?

  Man, I think, bro, this was for us a long time coming. I initially wanted to get you on, I just wanted to tell your story because that's how we became close. You know, we sat down in the green room first, we met at the bar at DoubleTree in Bristol, and we drank beers and talked and, you know, I remember when the conversation ended, he was like, man, a lot of that I've never really told to a lot of people. And I think that was something that formed a bond with us where I'm always cheering for you, I'm always rooting for you. And I feel the same exact thing anytime I'm around you, anytime J Will pops up on my phone. You know what I think, man. I think that if things were different,

• 1:18:51Ryan Clark?

  we are talking about you and what you did in your basketball career the same way we talk about Ja and a lot of these other guys. But if it took some of the things you've gone through and if it took you not being able to be that, to make you this J Will, my J Will, then I'm not grateful that it happened, but I am blessed to know this human more than anything in the world, man. So we appreciate you. We didn't have to ask you that your biggest pivot was. We've seen a lot of it. So thank you, bro.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  I appreciate you, man. The last thing I'll say, I am grateful that shit happened to me. I'm grateful because I feel like what's next and what's about to go down in my life, it's probably gonna be one of the biggest things I've ever done. But it's where I am. I feel like, I feel like a lot of us are here. We're at this inflection point where it's like, where is media going? Do we want to continue to be the people that feel like they can't talk about certain things? Or do you want to be that person that feels free and open to talk about what you see? And that's important to me. That's a wrap. My dog.

• 1:20:00Ryan Clark?

  You got some more babies on the way?

• 1:20:01Channing Crowder?

  No, no, no. Don't say that out loud.

• 1:20:29Speaker 04

  Every game day, you show up for your team. Now it's your time.

• 1:20:39Speaker 04

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