Senate Staffer Thinks Tesla & Nazi Technology is Being Hidden (ft. Kirk McConnell)

Ridge Wallet ➤ Take advantage of Ridge’s once-a-year anniversary sale and get UP TO 40% Off right now by going to https://www. Ridge.com/COSMIC #Ridgepod Chubbies ➤ Your summer wardrobe awaits! Get 20% off @chubbies with the code JESSE at https://www.chubbiesshorts.com/JESSE #chubbiespod #sponsored Qualia ➤ Resist aging at the cellular level, try Qualia Senolytic. Go to https://Qualialife.com/JESSE for up to 50% off and use code JESSE at checkout for an additional 15% off. For your convenience Qualia Senolytic is also available at select GNC locations near you. Join Jesse Michels on today's episode of American Alchemy as he sits down with former Senate intel staffer Kirk McConnell who goes on record after 18 years on Capitol Hill to discuss how UFO secrecy conceals exotic science. McConnell—who met firsthand with legacy crash retrieval whistleblowers and followed up on David Grusch’s claims—warns that revolutionary tech is buried in shell programs, shielded by corporate control and broken oversight. He served under Senator Jack Reed, a senior Armed Services member, during key post-9/11 reorganizations. McConnell says the U. S. may never see the benefits of this science unless Congress reasserts oversight. -------------------------- ***JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels ***Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join -------------------------- Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction 01:24 - Kirk’s Background 06:11 - David Grusch’s Claims 08:50 - Tesla’s Discoveries 19:20 - Extended Electrodynamics 23:11 - Nazi Technology 36:20 - Whistleblowers 41:50 - Are Whistleblowers Telling the Truth? 45:58 - How Does “The Program” Operate? 48:30 - Secret Science Technology 51:30 - Senate Armed Services 54:28 - Dick Cheney 01:00:01 - Sean Kirkpatrick 01:10:11 - UFOs and Nukes 01:29:25 - Whistleblower Protection 01:38:40 - Consciousness Connection 01:49:50 - Disclosure Under Trump 01:51:21 - Reasons For UFO Secrecy 02:02:35 - Conclusion -------------------------- SPOTIFY ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify INSTAGRAM ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TWITTER ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican EMAIL/BOOKINGS ➤ [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:59Speaker 04

  You seem to have conviction that there is kind of off-the-books and in-the-black science. This is a potential avenue into accessing different forms of energy at a huge scale that would potentially provide an explanation for the kind of technology and performance and physics that UAP seemed to exhibit. It's pretty well documented that the Nazis had this attraction to the occult that led them to investigate all sorts of odd things. It's really fascinating to me that the Nazi scientists were working on has some superficial similarities to the kind of hypotheses and declarations

• 1:44Speaker 04

  that Dr. Salvatore Pius has put out, that they used sort of these rotating cylinders filled with a form of mercury. And of course, that's what Wittkowsky says that the Nazi Bell program was doing, that was producing these levitation effects.

• 2:24Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with the esteemed Curt McConnell. I'm so excited to have you because I think you are as close to the action as anybody when it comes to the civilian representative world. You were on the Senate Armed Services Committee and you have spoken to first-hand witnesses and a lot of people where that probably give you confidence that the whole UFO thing is very real, where people on the outside, you know, just don't have kind of the same data points. And so I'm really just honored to speak to you now and you did that for multiple decades. And, you know, I think it came about your understanding of the UAP issue kind of very, very honestly and organically. And so, yeah, it's an honor to have you.

• 3:09Jesse Michels?

  Thank you.

• 3:10Speaker 04

  Well, I very much appreciate it, Jesse. I would say that you're exactly right. When I first started into this, you know, looking at this phenomenon, it was shortly after Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal's seminal New York Times article in late 2017. And that's a starting place for many people who, prior to that, were not paying any attention to the UFO, UAP phenomenon. And that was true for me and for several of my colleagues on the Senate's committee staffs, both the Armed Services Committee and the Intelligence Committee. That started us down this road, you know.

• 3:53Jesse Michels?

  And so you're, you know, attached to Senator Jack Reed, is that right?

• 3:57Speaker 04

  I was. I've retired. I retired about a year, almost exactly a year ago.

• 4:02Jesse Michels?

  But you have this kind of conventional career in politics, right? And then like what, how do you get into UFOs? I guess is what I'm trying to ask.

• 4:12Speaker 04

  Well, as I say, it was that, that New York Times piece where they had some very specific and what you would say actionable information in there about specific events.

• 4:23Speaker 04

  That were ongoing at the time, some like the Nimitz case from 2004, which was historical. They reported on the on the OSAP ATIP program and so forth. So we had we had strings to pull and and that's what we started to do. And, you know, just sort of following what we thought was reasonable evidence. We've been doing it ever since.

• 4:51Jesse Michels?

  So 2017, Leslie Kane, New York Times journalist, writes this kind of bombshell article. We've now found out that, you know, Chris Mellon, Lou Elizondo had a big part in the article. They came to her with these three videos that formerly were not acknowledged to be real by the Pentagon Office of Naval Intelligence. And, you know, the Tic Tac, the Go Fast and the Gimbal video, this this all comes out along with the revelation that Harry Reid, Senate Majority Leader on the Democratic side and Representative in Nevada, Senator from Nevada, had funded $22 million, along with, I think, Daniel Inouye and Ted Stevens of Alaska,

• 5:35Jesse Michels?

  to actually study UFOs in an official context. And so it's this kind of bombshell article. And what happens next for you? So you read the article, you say, oh, maybe there's something here. And then what happens?

• 5:47Speaker 04

  Well, I can't recall the, you know, specific one step at a time. But generally speaking, we I had known Chris Mellon, actually, since the late 1980s. When I first started in working in the Senate, he was a staffer for, at the time, Senator Bill Cohen from Maine on the Senate Intelligence Committee. So I'd known Chris forever. I saw his name associated with this and it was easy to reconnect with with Chris. And we met Lou and we met Dr. Putoff and Dr. Davis. And we met the other folks who had been working on the on the ranch in in Utah.

• 6:31Speaker 04

  And we met Brandon Fugel.

• 6:33Jesse Michels?

  Skinwalker.

• 6:34Speaker 04

  Skinwalker Ranch. We interviewed Navy pilots, a succession of them. We also found Dave Fravor and Alex Dietrich, who had been pilots in the Tic Tac episode back in 2004. We met with.

• 6:52Speaker 04

  We met with people from the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence and the Navy and and so on. So we were we were covering a lot of ground in a relatively short order. And and there was a lot of interest on the part of members at the time in understanding what the Navy was experiencing off the east coast of the United States.

• 7:16Jesse Michels?

  Now, there is a big gap between, okay, we had, you know, an anomalous sighting at Nimitz in 2004. We studied this stuff on the order of $22 million at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012. And, you know, the government has some knowledge of this stuff. There's a big gap between that and the David Grusch claims that probably, you know, and this is me kind of extrapolating, but like billions of dollars have been spent on this issue. We have, you know, biologics and non-human propelled craft in our possession at various kind of aerospace warehouses. He's offered to give the addresses for the warehouses.

• 7:58Jesse Michels?

  So there's a big delta between like, you know, we have this kind of ephemeral interest. And then like, we have this systematic study that's been going on for many decades. Do you have conviction in the latter and the kind of the David Grusch account?

• 8:13Speaker 04

  Yes, it was it was gradual in coming. But, you know, once, once there was what I would call, you know, staff level and member level, member driven investigation, we were beating the bushes and hoping that other sources would come forward. And the folks that we were dealing with already, who had obvious and publicized experience and expertise, going back to the the OSAP ATIP days that Harry Reid was sponsoring.

• 8:53Speaker 04

  And this led to other people, you know, coming to Congress and telling their stories, which were, you know, riveting and incredible. These are people with high-level clearances, positions of authority in the intelligence community and the Defense Department, and no reason to be fabricating things. And so, you know, and you start reading and reading and reading about this.

• 9:34Speaker 04

  There's just, as you know, mountains of information out there, not all of it true. But, you know, it's not all false, that's for sure. And so, yeah, we ended up coming progressively to the conclusion that there's not just smoke here, there's fire.

• 9:59Jesse Michels?

  And you're one of the few people, because we've had some conversations offline, you're one of the few people that I think is fairly deep on the nuts and bolts tracing the history of the legacy UFO program as well as the science. And so you seem to have conviction that there is kind of off-the-books and in-the-black science that, you know, the civilian world doesn't really have access to, which if you were to tell this to the average citizen in the US, they'd be shocked. You know, science is supposed to be sort of, you know, open source. Obviously, you have nuclear trade secrets, but nuclear physics is open source. And so if you analogize that with the UAP issue, you know, there are probably UAP trade

• 10:39Jesse Michels?

  secrets that, you know, involve national security, but UAP physics, so to speak, should be sort of open source, to the extent we understand how any of these things work from, you know, an energy perspective, propulsion perspective. Do you think we've made progress along those vectors and that that's hidden from the public? Are you still lugging around one of those bulky, worn-out wallets?

• 11:04Speaker 06

  You know, I am.

• 11:06Jesse Michels?

  Your posture is not great due to that wallet.

• 11:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 11:09Jesse Michels?

  Are you aware of that?

• 11:10Speaker 06

  I'm currently now more self-aware of my posture.

• 11:14Jesse Michels?

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• 11:24Speaker 06

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• 11:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Pretty sleek.

• 11:29Jesse Michels?

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• 11:33Speaker 06

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• 11:37Jesse Michels?

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• 11:52Jesse Michels?

  I lost my wallet.

• 11:55Jesse Michels?

  I was just checking my AirTag. Easy.

• 11:57Speaker 06

  Brilliant.

• 11:57Jesse Michels?

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• 12:24Speaker 06

  They heard it here first, on American Alchemy.

• 12:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 12:28Speaker 06

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• 12:36Speaker 04

  It's a personal opinion, but my, you know, my tentative conclusion is that we have made progress.

• 12:48Speaker 04

  I, I can't, you know, I can't prove it, and there's certainly a lot of credible reporting on both sides that the government has not made progress, so I don't want to overstate this. In fact, you know, as you know, we frequently hear the argument in favor- Of disclosure being that the government has failed to make progress because of the severe levels of secrecy imposed on the program and the decentralized and stovepipe siloed nature of the different activities that are going on, the inability to attract and work

• 13:30Speaker 04

  with the nation's premier scientific minds, the lack of coordination and integration across these silos. You know, it's easy to understand, it's plausible that those factors could have retarded or inhibited progress in a very significant way. And the idea being that that disclosure and bringing this under appropriate congressional and for that matter, executive branch oversight and management may significantly improve our ability to

• 14:07Speaker 04

  understand the physics and to and to master it. So, yeah, I do personally believe that we know an awful lot more about this than than the government has let on. Yeah.

• 14:26Jesse Michels?

  Are there any specific kind of modes of exotic science? So like you hear things like an extended version of electrodynamics. So like from classical electrodynamics to extended electrodynamics, you hear things like the zero point has energy and we can tap the zero point. Or, you know, I made a piece about the mid-century inventor Townsend Brown, which my audience, you know, has heard from me about this guy ad nauseam because I think he made some interesting updates in the world of kind of gravity manipulation. Have you looked into any of those things specifically?

• 15:01Speaker 04

  Yes, Jesse, I certainly have tried to do that. I've tried to be a genuine student of this issue and have read as much as I could, as I could find time. And I've certainly read, read the biographies of Thomas Townsend Brown. I've tried to read about Nikola Tesla, who I think also with using different terms, but I believe that he discovered what you're referring to as extended electrodynamics, which is the modern term for, for these non-traditional, non so-called Hertzian transverse electromagnetic waves. And, you know,

• 15:46Speaker 04

  Tesla certainly believed that he had discovered, I don't, I don't know if they should properly be called electromagnetic waves, because the electric and magnetic fields are, are sort of suppressed in these notions of scalar longitudinal waves. But for, for convenience, I'll just refer to them as that. Tesla certainly, he was dismayed when, when Hertz came out with his, his, his version of electromagnetic waves and said, this is the, this is the answer.

• 16:25Jesse Michels?

  That's really interesting. I didn't know that Tesla was dismayed of.

• 16:28Speaker 04

  He was, at least from what I've read, he actually traveled to Europe.

• 16:33Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 16:34Speaker 04

  To meet with Hertz, to try to convince him that he was wrong.

• 16:39Jesse Michels?

  No way. That's fascinating. So tell me if I'm getting the history right. I think in 1865, Maxwell, James Clerk Maxwell, British physicist, came up with his kind of equations around electromagnetism. But we hadn't actually detected an electromagnetic wave. And then Heinrich Hertz, I think 1887-ish.

• 16:59Speaker 04

  It's about that.

• 17:00Jesse Michels?

  About that time. And so Tesla would have been very young, but alive then.

• 17:04Speaker 04

  And active and, and, and had already believed that he had accomplished.

• 17:10Speaker 04

  Pushed a lot and learned a lot about this phenomenon.

• 17:13Jesse Michels?

  And so he goes to meet with Hertz.

• 17:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:15Jesse Michels?

  Because he felt like his electromagnetic models were limited.

• 17:19Speaker 04

  That's right. And, and that he did not have it right. And that, you know, Tesla was trying to help him correct his, uh, his, his beliefs. And by saying, no, look, this, this is a different, I have a different kind of wave here. And, um, and, you know, I think we, we call it Tesla waves, um, over, over the decades. I mean, it's been well over a hundred years, what, a hundred and, 140 years now, something like that. Anyway, so I think, uh, Tesla, Tesla, after all, famously believed that he could transmit electricity, electricity wirelessly and, uh, worked very hard on that for a big chunk of his life.

• 18:04Speaker 04

  And frankly, uh, there's our accounts that suggest that, or not suggest, that state that, that Tesla believed that he was even able to achieve so-called overunity, you know, he would send out, uh, electric, electrical power, uh, wirelessly. And he believed that, that, uh, under certain conditions, that he would, he would receive more energy than he, than he transmitted. And, uh, you know, to him, this was, uh, this was the ether, you know, um, not exactly the ether of the, of the, uh, early and mid and, uh, 19th century. But nonetheless, that's what, as I recall, that's what he thought

• 18:49Speaker 04

  it was, uh, that he was extracting energy. Today, I think we would say that he believed, at least, that he was extracting energy from the physical vacuum.

• 18:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  From the zero point energy field.

• 19:01Jesse Michels?

  Well, he definitely believed that. And I believe he dedicated a lot of his, the end of his life towards working towards that end from an engineering perspective and received funding from JP Morgan to work on this stuff at Warden Cliff. And it was all about wireless energy transmission, uh, you know, presumably through the vacuum. So, so yeah, it's very fascinating history. Then he dies, I think in like the 30s or so.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  No, I think it was 43.

• 19:30Jesse Michels?

  Forty-three. There you go. And he was living at the New Yorker Hotel.

• 19:34Speaker 04

  I forget the name of the hotel, but.

• 19:36Jesse Michels?

  I think it was the New Yorker Hotel. I think he lived in, was it 327? He had an obsession with three. And he was, it was right next to Bryant Park and he was in love with a pigeon at Bryant Park. Anyways, he dies. And his, all of his work gets confiscated by the FBI.

• 19:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't think all of it did, Jesse. My, and look, I don't, I don't claim or pretend to be a deep student of Nikola Tesla's life. And it's very complex and a lot of different accounts, but you know, he had a, I think a nephew who was, who was very interested in his papers. The FBI, various accounts say that yes, the FBI came in and seized large numbers of his files and classified them. But there's also, you know, stories about, about Tesla also shopping some of his

• 20:35Speaker 04

  work and beliefs with Russian sources or Soviet sources with, and with the Germans.

• 20:41Jesse Michels?

  I think he did do that. And I think he felt, and he sort of regretted it at the end of his life.

• 20:46Speaker 04

  I hope so, yeah.

• 20:47Jesse Michels?

  Right. But so, but, and because he was, he was Serbian. Yeah. So that's really interesting. But the two aren't mutually exclusive, right?

• 20:56Speaker 04

  No, they're not.

• 20:57Jesse Michels?

  We could have, you know, confiscated his files and he also could have shared his work with the Germans and the Soviets as well.

• 21:02Speaker 04

  That's right. Now, I, I do want to stress, Jesse, that my science friends in the UAP field, like Dr. Harold Putoff and Eric Davis, I'm sure if they're watching this, they're, they're, they're very upset with me because I don't think they believe that Tesla nor Thomas Townsend Brown or others like them, less well-known, to be sure. Actually achieved the things that we're alluding to. In other words, there's sort of a access to this, this vast energy in the zero point energy field in the so-called physical vacuum.

• 21:48Speaker 04

  They, they, they really don't think that that has been achieved and they doubt that it's possible. And they're scientists and eminent ones and I am not. I just, like you, read these accounts and it's, they're very interesting to me.

• 22:05Jesse Michels?

  But Hal Puthoff also did a podcast at the National Science Foundation and I think it was co-sponsored by NASA, where he talks about a model of extended electrodynamics. And he even talks about a specific experiment involving a traditional electromagnetic wave or RF signal. And then you take two Faraday chambers, one to kill the E field, you know, the electric field, one to kill the magnetic field.

• 22:29Speaker 04

  Right.

• 22:29Jesse Michels?

  And you can communicate essentially kind of faster than light. And so via these vector and scalar potentials. So, you know, do you think that that has no connection with the Tesla stuff? Or maybe that's what he's saying? I don't know.

• 22:41Speaker 04

  Well, look, I'm, I'm no scientist. But I do think that this may be an example that you're bringing up of, of like, for laypeople, it would be like, you know, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? You know, a distinction without a difference. It's like, okay, yeah, Hal believes in a certain brand of extended electrodynamics.

• 23:04Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 23:05Speaker 04

  But not this part of it, maybe.

• 23:07Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 23:09Speaker 04

  Whereas others, others believe in, you know, for example, scalar longitudinal waves. Hal and Eric might say, gee, I don't believe that. Whereas other scientists, and in fact, Lee Hyvley, who, who is a dominant force and figure in extended electrodynamics would say that, that they are likely real.

• 23:33Jesse Michels?

  Have you, have you met Lee Hyvley?

• 23:35Speaker 04

  I have not met Lee Hyvley. I have certainly met people that work with, directly with him.

• 23:40Jesse Michels?

  So this guy's Known as kind of the godfather of extended electrodynamics, like in the modern context. And I think he's published with a guy, two, two other guys, Woodside and

• 23:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:52Jesse Michels?

  Lobel. And he's based in Colorado Springs. I was about to meet up with him once and then I think he got very nervous or something. And, and the door got shut in my face, unfortunately.

• 24:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:04Jesse Michels?

  And so, uh, yeah, I, I, I was very fascinated to learn more about extended electrodynamics because it's clearly, it's this thing that keeps coming up in UFO world. But it, yeah, I don't know. It just, uh, you know, it's, it's unclear how, how real it is and how it exactly works. Like you, you get the sense that limited bits of information are being let out, maybe strategically, but that it's, uh, you know, still this somewhat opaque field.

• 24:30Speaker 04

  Yes. And, uh, you know, there's hints, I know this from other scientists who are involved in the study of this, uh, of this discipline that, you know, there's, there's possibility that it's not just, uh, scalar longitudinal waves that might enable the transmission of, uh, wirelessly of electrical power, but that maybe these waves couple into other forms of energy in the physical vacuum, like gravity and anti-gravity, um, as, as just one example. So this is a potential avenue into accessing a, uh,

• 25:14Speaker 04

  you know, different forms of energy at a, at a huge scale that would, would potentially provide an explanation for the kind of, uh, technology and performance and physics, uh, that UAP, uh, seem to exhibit. So that's, that's the connection where, uh, where, you know, people are really hunting for how in the world could, could, can these objects operate in the way that they do? And this is potentially an explanation for it. So it's appealing.

• 25:49Jesse Michels?

  And you've also gone deep on some pretty interesting kind of exotic branches of science that deal with the Nazis as well and the kind of World War II lore. Is that right?

• 26:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, once again, at the risk of of being ridiculed by my, some of my scientific collaborators and friends, I've certainly read all about, you know, the Nazi Bell Program. Igor Witkowski, the Polish journalist, has written some books about this and and Joseph Farrell. It's really fascinating to me. And and certainly, you know, aspects of what they at least have reported that the Nazi scientists were working

• 26:45Speaker 04

  on, you know, has some superficial, at least for me as a layman, superficial similarities to the kind of hypotheses and declarations that Dr. Salvatore Pius from the Navy has put out as well as others. So, so, yeah, I'm interested in that. I think it's incumbent on on anybody who really is digging deep into this issue. To leave these stones unturned is really not a good idea, because this world is so strange that we have to have

• 27:25Speaker 04

  an open mind to lots of possibilities that might seem ridiculous or fantastic.

• 27:32Jesse Michels?

  I don't know how ridiculous it is, because you do have Igor Witkowski, who's this Polish journalist, who's gone fairly deep on this idea. We know this existed, Komlerstob, you know, Skoda Works, which had two locations in modern day Poland and modern day Czechoslovakia. You had these underground tunnels and you have you can see a test rig there. And the test rig looks like it would work with some sort of bell shaped UFO. Yeah. And so I find that, you know, absolutely fascinating. There's a great British journalist named Nick Cook, who wrote a book called The Hunt for Zero Point. Yeah. And he actually investigated all of this. And, you know, he would again say, we know Kalmar Stab is real. You know, he's seen the test rig. He's gone underground and stuff and not a ton of evidence there,

• 28:17Jesse Michels?

  but there are some cables that are really interesting and intriguing. And then it was rumored that Walter Gerlock, who was, you know, very interested in gravity and anti-gravity, was working on this from like the physics perspective. And then Ernest Grauitz, who was the SS medical officer who studied under, was reported to Joseph Mengele was on this. And so this was this idea that this Nazi bell would, you'd create this high energy torsion field around it. It would slow down the inertial reference frame of what's inside the bell. And so say everything inside the bell is moving at one one thousandths of the outside or whatever. You spend a year inside this thing. You walk out, you're a thousand years in the future. It sounds so fantastical and kind of insane.

• 29:00Jesse Michels?

  But from, you know, theoretically, from like a general relativity perspective, it actually doesn't break much. And you don't even have to, you know, kind of combat Stephen Hawking's chronological conjecture, because you're not talking about backwards time travel. Anyways, it's all super fascinating, but you've uncovered some connections between the Nazis and their interest in the occult and esoteric as to how they might have kind of been clued in to the architecture of this DeGlocke bell. You know that moment when you slip into something and instantly wonder how you ever lived without it? That's exactly how I felt the first time I put on Chubby's original stretch shorts.

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• 30:48Speaker 04

  Well, first, what I would say, Jesse, is that I don't dispute that what Witkowski and Farrell report is, for the most part, you know, correct. The question is, how effective were these programs on the Nazis? Did they really succeed at what they were aiming at? But, you know, when you talk about things that I've uncovered, it's others have uncovered it, I just happen to have read about it. But certainly, I think it's pretty well documented that the Nazis had this attraction

• 31:30Speaker 04

  to the occult that led them to investigate all sorts of odd things, mystical things even. And I think it was Witkowski who described their expeditions to the Himalayas in search of these Aryan myths and trying to chase those down. And of course, one of the interesting Himalayan myths that's pertinent to this issue, or that I hope I'm pronouncing this right, if not, I hope experts will forgive me, but the vimena phenomenon. And what's interesting is that there are suggestions in those vimena traditions that

• 32:13Speaker 04

  these gods who flew around in these airships, which by the way, could fly the way. UAP do allegedly, that they used sort of these rotating cylinders filled with a form of mercury. And of course, that's what Vidkowsky says that the Nazi Bell program was doing. It was a it was a red mercury compound in these cylinders, these counter rotating cylinders that was producing these these levitation effects. So it's a very interesting correlation. Maybe the Nazis were convinced that these these Himalayan traditions were were on to

• 32:57Speaker 04

  something there. And of course, for students of the history of the Cold War, at the tail end of the of the Cold War and into the 90s, coming out of the former Soviet Union, were all these stories about this substance called red mercury that was alleged to have these amazing properties, and that it was being sold on the black market and so on. And, you know, most of the intelligence community, I think, who studied this concluded that it was a hoax, that it was fraudulent. But there you have it, you know, there was a black market in red mercury. So this this whole thing pops up again in in much more

• 33:42Speaker 04

  modern times. So it's interesting. I like I like leaving no stone unturned and trying to connect dots and see if there's any basis for it.

• 33:52Jesse Michels?

  It's fascinating. You also, we just got breakfast, and you were telling me about some very interesting overlaps between American investigations into foo fighters. Foo fighters are these seemingly controlled ball lightning kind of plasma orb thingies that allied fighter pilots would often see in Nazi terms, specifically in Bavaria from 1942 to 1945. You uncovered some connections around American investigations into those, and then what ended up in this sort of UFO cover up with the Robertson Panel of 1952, which created Blue Book.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  Well, again, Jesse, I certainly didn't uncover this. It's like, but it's out there in the, in the history of the investigations of the Foo Fighter phenomenon, both in, in the European theater, as well as in the, in the, in the far east, in the Pacific theater. And indeed, you know, you read the accounts of the Foo Fighter phenomenon and they're, they read almost exactly like post-World War II and up to the present time, accounts of UAP. So I'm pretty confident that we're dealing with the same phenomenon.

• 35:11Speaker 04

  And indeed, what's, what's really important about the Foo Fighter phenomenon is, you know, if you think back on the context, the Allies were paranoid about German innovation and, and, you know, the chance that they were working on some very exotic technologies that would really, really disadvantage the Allied forces. And when the Foo Fighter phenomenon was, was becoming, you know, noticed and a thing, I think it's perfectly clear that the Allies were, intelligence services and operational commanders were really worried, what the hell is this?

• 35:53Speaker 04

  And does it represent some German secret exotic weapons technology? And it was studied, and I think it was studied pretty carefully. And one of the people that was assigned to conduct that study happened to be Dr. Howard Robertson from Caltech, who seven years after the war was chosen, I'm sure, not coincidentally, to lead up the CIA's infamous Robertson Panel. But another historical figure that was involved in the Foo Fighter investigations with Robertson

• 36:33Speaker 04

  is the future Nobelist Luis Alvarez, a tremendously accomplished physicist. And the both of them, I mean, Alvarez was also on the Robertson Panel.

• 36:46Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 36:47Speaker 04

  And of course, the Robertson Panel, for any of your viewers and listeners who are not familiar, in 1952, after the so-called UFO, I forget what they call it.

• 37:03Jesse Michels?

  Flyover.

• 37:04Speaker 04

  Flyovers in Washington, D.C.

• 37:06Jesse Michels?

  The headlines on the newspapers were, you know, saucers on the White House lawn.

• 37:10Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 37:11Jesse Michels?

  This big, it was mass sightings in July, specifically July 19th and 20th and 26th and 27th in 1952.

• 37:17Speaker 04

  That's right. So, in the wake of that, the Robertson Panel made these recommendations in secret. One recommendation was to, that the US government needed to be out debunking the existence, or, you know, of any reality of, about these UFO phenomena. But then their, their second recommendation, which is not always noted in the accounts of it, is that they, they, they, they strongly recommended that the government figure out

• 37:53Speaker 04

  how to detect and track these, these anomalous UFO types of phenomenon in order, they said, to differentiate between, you know, a real Russian Soviet bomber coming over the North Pole and, versus some UFO, right? So, this was a practical matter, as they put it, but, but nonetheless, it's interesting that they really recommended that the government figure out how to detect and track and differentiate these things from real, tangible fighters and bombers.

• 38:36Speaker 04

  So, yeah, so I guess what I'm trying to say is that, and this is pertinent to your point, is that we started in World War II to really...

• 38:49Speaker 04

  Think about and worry about UFOs. We just called them foo fighters, right? And I think that this is, uh, this is an important lesson. Uh, when contemplating whether the United States government ever took and it has ever taken UFOs seriously. You bet your ass they did. They have.

• 39:12Jesse Michels?

  Oh yeah. Well, nobody can dispute that though, that HP Robertson, who was a Caltech physicist and Luis Walter Alvarez went out there and studied this stuff and then sat on the Robertson panel, which sort of, you know, ended up determining UFO secrecy or the government's orientation towards it, at least public facing with Blue Book for the next two decades. So, and then there's, there's also another, you know, anecdote from that time, 1946 and seven, there were these ghost rockets showing up in Sweden. They looked like these modified V2s. You had over a thousand sightings of these. And so again, not disputed that Eisenhower sent, uh, General, General James Doolittle out to investigate that. And then who knows if this is correlated, but James Doolittle

• 39:55Jesse Michels?

  comes back and I believe he becomes the chair of NACA, uh, you know, and, um, you know, uh, looks into like kind of exotic propulsion modalities in the U.S. after that. And so I do think you have to ask your question. If you're like, you have to ask the question, if you're a complete skeptic, you want to write off the whole UFO thing, where did those inquiries go? Cause I, I believe that, you know, we've made progress since then. Um, so yeah, I think it's the whole thing's so fascinating. So let's shift gears a little bit. Um, Kirk, have you spoken to anybody, um, in a classified setting or not, who has seen craft firsthand?

• 40:35Speaker 04

  You mean seen recovered craft, recovered craft and/or, uh, stuff that we may have built?

• 40:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 04

  Um, yes. Uh, uh, these are people who, uh, found their way, one way or another to us on Capitol Hill and met with, uh, with senators and who made precisely those kinds of claims.

• 41:01Jesse Michels?

  When you say stuff that we could have built, you don't mean? A B2 or F-117 or F-35 going down, right?

• 41:08Speaker 04

  No, the allegations are that we have

• 41:12Jesse Michels?

  Reverse engineered.

• 41:13Speaker 04

  We have reverse engineered something that, that at least has some of the capabilities that, that UFOs and UAP have, have reportedly displayed.

• 41:26Jesse Michels?

  At that point, that's such a bold claim. How do you follow up and try to get like a smoking gun that this is not of human origin and that this isn't some super sophisticated tech protection program that's trying to psyop our civilian government, which again, maybe prima facie absurd, but like extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence.

• 41:50Speaker 04

  I'm not fond of that, of that assertion, by the way.

• 41:53Jesse Michels?

  I agree. Well, I think in the UFO stuff, we have, we have an abundance of evidence and we need extraordinary investigation and, and we, you know, we're just sort of like mentally like, you know, not in the right, our priors don't allow us to actually accept that this is real and we don't do the proper investigating, but anyways.

• 42:11Speaker 04

  Well, Jesse, I would say first of all, that you're, you know, your question is how do you, how do, how does one go about, you know, proving this?

• 42:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 42:21Speaker 04

  And, and I will, I will take that with respect to my personal situation as a, as a staff member for a committee in Congress, that we had very limited ability to, to determine the veracity of these, of these reports. First of all, the folks who, who were, you know, telling this, making these claims, were not willing to be, to have to come out in public for the most part. Dave Grusch is an, is an exception, but Dave doesn't claim absolute direct, you know, firsthand, firsthand knowledge.

• 43:07Speaker 04

  So, you know, people did not want to, they were afraid to, to come forward.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  Publicly, but in addition, you know, if they, the more specifics they gave you, the more they were worried about, about them being identified by the, by, you know, the security services being able to tell, well, Congress is saying that somebody told them this. Well, this, there's a small number of people that knew that, right? So, uh, so, uh, it's not that we had so much specific actionable information that, uh, that we were able to act on. But, but, uh, more fundamentally, um,

• 43:54Speaker 04

  you know, for Congress to undertake the kind of investigation that would be necessary to pry through the kinds of, um, security structures that have allegedly been built around this topic. You know, uh, that's a big lift for, uh, for, for, for elected members of Congress. Like, uh, you know, uh,

• 44:26Speaker 04

  investigations, you know, like the, uh, you know, church, uh, Pike post Watergate investigations or Iran contra.

• 44:38Speaker 04

  These members have to be pretty confident that there are really important, no kidding, uh, reality, uh, behind, behind, uh, the issues, right? So you kick off a no holds barred investigation, you better be damn sure that, that there's a, uh, that there's a prize there, uh, or, you know, something that's, that's for sure going to be discovered and revealed. And I, I don't think that Congress feels that.

• 45:12Speaker 04

  Collectively, that they're at that point yet. I think this is why you consistently hear the appeal for more, for more people with direct sources to come forward, you know, ideally in public, but at least in private. Come, come to Congress and, and, and, and tell your story.

• 45:41Jesse Michels?

  Do these people, are you sussing them out? Do they seem genuinely afraid for their lives? Do they seem like these kind of slick operators where it's like they could pull the wool over your eyes or like what, what, how do they pattern match? Cause I imagine even for your own, so you're a curious human being, you have to be thinking, this person is telling me they're recovering alien extraterrestrial craft. I want to know if this is true for, not only for humanity and for the US, but like for myself. And so how are you, how are you trying to suss that out? Today I want to share something that's become a game changer for me personally. Qualia senolytic. Have you ever heard about senolytics?

• 46:22Jesse Michels?

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• 47:07Jesse Michels?

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• 47:50Speaker 04

  Well, I, I would say, Jesse, that, that my clear sense is that I and most, if not all of the colleagues, staff colleagues who were involved. And, and certainly some of the key senators who were involved. Found these individuals to be credible. And, and, you know, sane. And, and to your question about, did they, were, were they believable? When they would say, when they would express concerns for their own safety and that of their families?

• 48:36Speaker 04

  And of their careers, I would say that's very definitely was, was credible. I mean, I, what I mean by that is we believed them that they felt that way.

• 48:51Speaker 04

  And it was almost in some cases palpable. I can recall an instance where one source, when, when, when initiating, you know, an explanation of what they, of what they knew, was visibly shaking. I mean, physically so stressed.

• 49:19Speaker 04

  About it.

• 49:20Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 49:21Speaker 04

  So, so, yeah, I think, I don't think that these folks are making it up. They, they feel that there's, there are grave risks and, you know.

• 49:32Jesse Michels?

  And these are people that have not gone public. They're not the whistleblowers that public knows.

• 49:37Speaker 04

  Well, that's, that's right. I don't want to give the wrong impression. It's not like there's hordes of these people that, or dozens even, but there's, there's a handful.

• 49:48Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 49:48Speaker 04

  Um, and, and, and, and they are very concerned.

• 49:54Jesse Michels?

  They don't feel safe to come out fully, or?

• 49:56Speaker 04

  Yes, that's right. Um, uh, um, I, it's, it's like they have the, sort of the fear of God, um, in them, about the consequences.

• 50:09Jesse Michels?

  Are, are you aware of people who've died or faced retribution around coming out, or?

• 50:15Speaker 04

  Um, well, I don't think you need to look any further than the case of Dave Grusch.

• 50:20Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  I mean, he's not even a, you know, what you'd call a firsthand witness, uh, or source. But, uh, you know, Dave, uh, Dave had a hard go of it and some of the, the things that have happened to him are not, uh, even in the public domain.

• 50:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 50:38Speaker 04

  Uh, I believe. And, um, and so, um, yeah, uh, I, I think there's real, um, there's real risk. I mean, this is not, uh, to come out is, is almost clearly not career enhancing.

• 50:54Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 50:54Speaker 04

  To, to be sarcastic, uh,

• 50:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 50:58Speaker 04

  And I would say, look, you know, Lou Elizondo is, you know, had to go find another career path, you know? Uh, as has Dave.

• 51:08Jesse Michels?

  I think Lou's also talked about being on a hit list.

• 51:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, they have, uh, they, they have, they believe that they, uh, that that has, that that has happened.

• 51:18Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:18Speaker 04

  Um, so, um, so, uh, I can't, uh, I can't positively assert that, uh, that, that, uh, that this is, that these things are true. Um, but neither can I, uh, can I dismiss him.

• 51:33Jesse Michels?

  Have you spoken to anybody who claims to have seen biologics?

• 51:38Speaker 04

  Um, let me think about that one. Um, if I personally know people, I.

• 51:47Speaker 04

  Think the answer to that is no. Um, I don't think that I personally know someone who has seen, who claims to have seen, uh, biologic.

• 51:57Jesse Michels?

  How in this, how in your assessment is the program run? I think what I struggle with personally, as do a lot of other people, uh, is, is like, there's clearly no change, clear central chain of command, or if there is, it's extremely well hidden. And it seems like these sort of, uh, middle management cutouts in various organizations, where like leadership in those specific organizations are half aware that these things even exist. And money is being funneled from other kind of private, you know, interests or whatever. The whole thing seems insane. Like I've, I've personally heard of extremely high ranking members of government,

• 52:38Jesse Michels?

  where they're not, you know, clued in, they're not briefed to this stuff, and then their deputies are. And you hear something like that and you're like, how does that even work? Like what, that makes no sense on some level. Maybe it does in this sort of, you know, super swampy, you know, bureaucratic mess that is Washington. But yeah, how do you, how do you make sense of it?

• 52:58Speaker 04

  Uh, Jesse, the short answer is I can't make sense of it. I, I, uh, what the way you've characterized, uh, what is out there in terms of what people, um, have people have said, you know, confidentially, um, and otherwise is, is right. Uh, and I think, uh, based upon the, uh, the amount of information that I have, uh, I don't think it's possible to, to, uh, to, to actually, uh, determine with confidence, uh, uh, what, what the management structure, if, if one exists, uh, what it looks like. Does it make any sense at all?

• 53:42Speaker 04

  Is it, uh, is it sort of this, uh, this crazy spaghetti, uh, that, that you've kind of described? And how could that possibly be true? Um, I think, uh, I think this is, uh, the answers to this, uh, uh, conundrum, uh, will have to, uh, await, you know, some, some genuine disclosure.

• 54:04Jesse Michels?

  Trump has talked a lot about other disclosures, ala Jeffrey Epstein, JFK.

• 54:12Jesse Michels?

  9/11, things of that nature. You have the Department of Government Efficiency sort of running, you know, roughshod through a lot of these sort of bloated, you know, agencies. Do you think we have any disclosures on the UAP front? And maybe even, you know, beyond that, do we get disclosures about, like, is any of Tesla's work still, you know, classified? Is, I'm pretty sure Thomas Townsend Brown's work is still classified by the Navy. So do we get scientific disclosures or disclosures around UAP UFO?

• 54:45Speaker 04

  I really have no idea. Of course, there's, there's been a lot of observers of the, of the UAP issue who have, have taken heart from the public positions of a decent number of advisors and now cabinet members, and even, you know, the National Security Advisor, saying positive things about UAP transparency. And, and there was a lot of optimism that

• 55:24Speaker 04

  we will, we will see a new level of disclosure and transparency from this administration. So far, I don't think we've, we've, we've seen, you know, significant indications that that's going to happen. Frankly, I think the first, you know, official act that the Trump administration took in dismissing what was going on up in New Jersey, for example, that this was an FAA-regulated set of, set of events, it does not bode well. And furthermore,

• 56:06Speaker 04

  I think that there's some, you know, developing disappointment that whenever the Trump administration lists its, its objectives with regard to

• 56:22Speaker 04

  Revealing, you know, really significant classified information about the JFK assassination, the RFK assassination, Martin Luther King, and Jeffrey Epstein and so on. You know, they list all those and then it sometimes seems like the UFO issue is either mentioned sort of in passing at the end or not mentioned at all. So we'll have to obviously wait and see what happens. But I think that there's reasons to be concerned that we might not get the disclosure that people had hoped for.

• 57:05Jesse Michels?

  How big was the Senate Armed Services Committee when you were on it? How many people?

• 57:09Speaker 04

  You mean, how many members?

• 57:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, how many members?

• 57:11Speaker 04

  Roughly two dozen, a little, a little more. I think they've actually expanded in this current session, again, up to 27 members.

• 57:20Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So, yeah, what percentage of those 24 to 27 members believe that UFOs are real and being systematically looked into in a government context?

• 57:31Speaker 04

  Jesse, I could not possibly speculate on that. And, you know, if I did know, it's not something that I would want to reveal. This is...

• 57:44Jesse Michels?

  Were you a total lone wolf? I guess is what I'm trying to say.

• 57:47Speaker 04

  No.

• 57:48Jesse Michels?

  Were you completely isolated in believing this?

• 57:50Speaker 04

  Uh, no, there were certainly, there were certainly some members who by their actions clearly conveyed that they were interested in this topic and believed that there was, you know, a reason to push the government to, to reveal more of what they believe the government knows about this topic. You know, is every member of the Senate Armed Services Committee or the Senate Intelligence Committee, you know, a believer? I would say I really have no idea. Was there interest in this?

• 58:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I think, I think there's, you know, there's, there's sort of gradations here because, you know, they're all concerned. Everyone in national security is concerned about these...

• 58:51Speaker 04

  These overflights of sensitive, sensitive facilities. What, what's really hard to figure out is how much of that is like, you know, hobby shop drones? How much of that is, is potentially, you know, some adversary, but still far from anomalous, you know, sort of conventional types of drone technologies versus what is perhaps anomalous genuinely and what might be exotic technology of an adversary or, or, or something that's genuinely non-human intelligence and so forth.

• 59:36Speaker 04

  I think everyone is interested in the security of our sensitive facilities and, and want the government to figure out what the hell's going on at places like Langley Air Force Base and our air bases in the UK and over sensitive facilities in New Jersey or wherever they may be.

• 59:59Jesse Michels?

  You hear things reportedly from David Grusch, like Dick Cheney is, was a gatekeeper for the legacy UFO efforts. I mean, on the one hand, it would kind of make sense because he seems to have been, you know, if there was anybody who was kind of running, you know, the show behind George W. Bush, it was probably Dick Cheney. And so that kind of comports with our understanding of this whole issue of like, you know, it's almost like Lord of the Rings. If you have the, the ring or something, you know, that confers some sort of weird power. And then on the other hand, it's just so absurd. I mean, Dick Cheney is very old, but he's still alive and he's a very high profile person. So like, it's a part of me is just like, can we just ask the guy? Like, do you, do you, do you think that Dick Cheney had any involvement with UFOs?

• 1:00:45Speaker 04

  Well, there's a difference here between what I think, you know, there's evidence for and what I personally kind of believe. What I would say is that we've certainly heard the same accounts that you're referring to that, and the, you know, the sequence goes like this, that George H. W. Bush, as the director of CIA, was read in allegedly to this so-called legacy program and that

• 1:01:23Speaker 04

  and that he passed on what he knew about that to his son, George W., and that, and it is, it is reported by some that the George W. Bush administration did, you know, really take a more hands-on approach to the UFO/ UAP issue. And it has been reported by some that, yes, Dick Cheney as vice president was the, was sort of in charge of that and that his national security staff and the national security council staff were involved. How many of them?

• 1:02:06Speaker 04

  I've never heard a report claiming, you know, claiming any knowledge about how deep or extensive the staff was involved in that. But certainly, we've heard those, those reports, yeah.

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• 1:03:05Speaker 04

  But I just can't tell you for sure that that that that happened. Now, you know, there was a report that that the National Security Council, under George W. Bush, did commission a study of whether the time was had come for, quote, disclosure. And that they they they studied the matter, they they let out a contract and it was, you know, there was an assessment done and then it was debated. And the conclusion that was reached was that, no, the time was not right yet.

• 1:03:49Speaker 04

  It would it would be still.

• 1:03:53Jesse Michels?

  Catastrophic.

• 1:03:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, catastrophic, you know, there would be the the consequences, the negative consequences would would outweigh the benefits. Let's put it that way at a minimum. And this was this story was reported to Sean Kirkpatrick at Arrow. And we subsequently heard from Sean directly that that he had looked into this or had somebody look into it and that, indeed, there there had been a contract for such a study. And the the basis of the study was was suppose the United States government had in its possession,

• 1:04:39Speaker 04

  and I forget the number, you know, six or 12, recovered extraterrestrial craft. And should the United States government disclose this fact? Okay.

• 1:04:54Speaker 04

  What was said to us from Sean Kirkpatrick is that there was such a study, but it was purely an academic exercise that allegedly there was just, you know, an entity in the Defense Department, I think it was probably the Office of Net Assessment, which is the futuristic element within the, within the department that is supposed to look at strange, what-if kinds of scenarios that they had decided to, just for the heck of it, postulate, what if we had a bunch of crashed UFOs, should we reveal it or not?

• 1:05:38Speaker 04

  I think that kind of strains credulity that somebody-

• 1:05:41Jesse Michels?

  Why would you ever simulate something that if you're convinced isn't real? It's so absurd. In the hypothetical scenario that we had unicorns in our possession-

• 1:05:50Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:05:50Jesse Michels?

  We have to figure out a plan. I mean, that's crazy. Also, Hal Puthoff is on record saying he consulted for this net assessment. National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley was involved in that they, you know, came to the conclusion that you mentioned, which is that the, you know, costs outweighed the benefits as far as disclosure went. So, one of them is lying, and I don't think it's Hal Puthoff.

• 1:06:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think Hal is a pretty straight shooter. And that's why when you asked the question, I said personally, I tend to believe that this took place the way it was charac- has been characterized by, by Hal. Yeah.

• 1:06:27Jesse Michels?

  And so, yeah, so Kirkpatrick, you know, is this very interesting character where you, I've heard all these stories of people who've had experiences in the government. Like, you have this great book by Robert Hastings called UFOs and Nukes, where you have, you know, over 160 ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases, experiencing Tic Tacs, saucers, all sorts of things, showing up at, you know, nuclear sites, tampering with the comms, shutting down missile silos. In certain cases, the employees board crafts and get, you know, they wake up miles away. It's fascinating stuff. And he and many of the witnesses say that, you know, testimonies to Kirkpatrick,

• 1:07:09Jesse Michels?

  the guy's not taking notes. He's not, he's literally just listening to this, these sacred, very important stories that are dear and that are very personal to these people that, you know, profound. And then sort of there's just no, there's never any follow up.

• 1:07:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:25Jesse Michels?

  And so I guess my question is, we know that there is a longstanding tradition in government of obfuscation around the UFO topic. You had Edward Condon was, you know, created the Condon Committee. And all the people on the Condon Committee were like, this is a bad faith effort. And we didn't actually, you know, like anything that even made it into study was like already ruled out as like a, you know, hoax or a bad case. You have letters now between Condon and Air Force Colonel Robert Hippler, where Hippler's saying, we want this to be shown as a waste of money and Condon kind of implicitly complying with that.

• 1:07:55Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I don't think implicitly, I think.

• 1:07:58Jesse Michels?

  Explicitly. And Condon also was a longtime associate of Robert Oppenheimer's and goes way back when it comes to atomic secrecy. In fact, if you believe David Grusch, which I do, the Atomic Energy Commission, which created UFO secrecy in 1954, the precursor to that was the McMahon Secrecy Act of 46, which Condon wrote. So the person writing UFO secrecy is then going on to debunk it. So the whole thing's so ridiculous. Is Kirkpatrick a modern version of that?

• 1:08:26Speaker 04

  Well, um, look, I don't like to cast dispersions unnecessarily for sure. And I've known Sean actually for 20 years. And I had worked with him a good bit.

• 1:08:42Jesse Michels?

  Wow, you've known him for 20, for 20 years.

• 1:08:44Speaker 04

  I have known, known Sean for a long time. I knew him from when he was a program manager at the National Reconnaissance Office. And subsequently, we stayed in touch through his progression, his career progression within the, uh, the defense intelligence community and principally DIA. And, uh, yeah, you know, uh, in fact, when we first started on the Senate Armed Services Committee to, and Senate Intelligence Committee.

• 1:09:15Speaker 04

  To investigate this matter after the New York Times article in 2017, I involved Sean in our work. I invited him with some regularity to sit in on our interviews of Navy pilots and some of the scientific figures. I mean, I think there was a picture posted online, perhaps by Brandon Fugel, the owner of Skinwalker Ranch,

• 1:09:48Speaker 04

  of Fugel's team briefing in an Armed Services Committee hearing room. And there's a picture of Sean sitting next to us. Well, I had invited Sean to that meeting. So, but you know, I do feel that Sean ended up taking a very traditional DOD line on the UAP issue.

• 1:10:17Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that was intellectually genuine or disingenuous?

• 1:10:23Speaker 04

  Look, I don't know. I personally feel that there was a point at the beginning of his service as the Director of Arrow that Sean was committed to calling it as he saw it. I do feel like there might have been then some change. And you know, there's speculation that he was read into the Legacy Program and told, you know, in no uncertain terms that, you know,

• 1:11:03Speaker 04

  you need to sustain the sort of the party line that's been in existence for so long. But look, I have no idea if that actually happened.

• 1:11:13Jesse Michels?

  Didn't he work at Oak Ridge National Labs too?

• 1:11:16Speaker 04

  Well, let's see. Sean, I don't know, like before he took the Arrow job.

• 1:11:24Speaker 04

  What association, if any, he had with Oak Ridge. But he did start working with Oak Ridge. You know, he created a, he created an advisory group. I can't remember what it was called officially, but I think that group still exists. And the contract for that, for the formation of that group to advise him at Arrow, well, the contract was let through Oak Ridge. And then when Sean retired from the government, he is working with and for Oak Ridge under contract now.

• 1:12:02Jesse Michels?

  That's, yeah. Seems like a potential conflict of interest. If you believe that UFO secrecy has anything to do with atomic secrecy, which I'm assuming you do, I believe that.

• 1:12:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:12:12Jesse Michels?

  That seems like an issue possibly, that there's financial outflows from the organization that you're supposed to be investigating.

• 1:12:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, conflicts of interest or allegations are easy to make, but not so easy to sort out. But, but it is, it is, it is certainly worth taking note of if, if, if, if nothing else.

• 1:12:33Jesse Michels?

  I just, I just don't see, you know, I've spoken to a lot of the same people as him. And like, these people are good people. They're honest. Like this guy, Mario Woods, 1977 Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota. Maybe you are familiar with his case.

• 1:12:47Speaker 04

  I don't think I am.

• 1:12:48Jesse Michels?

  Well, he's, you know, a lot of these guys, he was, you know, woke up nine miles away.

• 1:12:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:12:55Jesse Michels?

  Near Lake Newell.

• 1:12:56Speaker 04

  This is in Robert Hastings.

• 1:12:58Jesse Michels?

  Robert Hastings.

• 1:12:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:12:59Jesse Michels?

  And, you know, he had this just profound experience. And then he maintained his Q clearance for 20 years after that. And if you think this guy is having an anomalous incident that you've never heard about before, why wouldn't you strip him of his Q clearance if you hadn't had heard it a million times? Why wouldn't you strip him of his Q clearance if you've, you know, this is just a one of one case and the guy's claiming something that ostensibly seems crazy. And then he describes this whole protocol of them checking his teeth and doing medical stuff. And it's like, it was as if. They had seen this a million times before.

• 1:13:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Jesse Michels?

  And you have to think of 170 of these people, which is a large number, have come out in the last 70 years. It's probably in the thousands as far as people who've experienced this because you're talking about a culture of, you know, insane secrecy, talking about Cold War secrecy era stuff. Um, and then people with Q clearances who don't get into this line of work because they're history on it. And so you, I don't know, you talk to a lot of these guys, Bob Jacobs, you know, many of the others. And they're just not liars. And if you're telling me that the guy, you know, Kirkpatrick's sitting across from them, he's not taking notes. You know, and then he kind of dismisses them and then dismisses the whole thing publicly out of hand. Either I'm crazy and my, my whole, the whole computer going on in my brain is malfunctioning.

• 1:14:16Jesse Michels?

  And like, you know, I need to be taken off air. Or like, there's something weird going on there.

• 1:14:21Speaker 04

  I don't disagree at all. And with regard to the notes part, you know, first of all, it was objectionable to me personally that the Arrow office didn't like videotape and, and record, at least record everything that was said. But they didn't operate that way. I, my understanding is they did take notes. I don't, I'm not saying that Sean Kirkpatrick himself took notes. But, but my understanding was that, that at least in all the episodes that I've heard about, the interviews that I've heard about, there was somebody at least taking notes.

• 1:14:55Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:14:55Speaker 04

  Um, uh, but you know, that seems insufficient to me. Uh, you need to hear, you know, to record verbatim what was said. Furthermore, as you noted, uh, these things would then just go into a black hole. The, the record of these interviews. Um, I mean, I think, uh, Hal Putoff and Eric Davis to this day have never been shown the notes from their meetings with Arrow, uh, for them to review and say, yes, this is, this is accurate. This is what I said, and this is what happened. Uh, it's, it's just, uh, they never heard from them again.

• 1:15:34Jesse Michels?

  And in certain cases, you know, Hastings has mentioned that the evidence is, gets erased or something. So they'll say, you've heard that too.

• 1:15:42Speaker 04

  I have heard.

• 1:15:43Jesse Michels?

  So it's like the tapes are here of this UFO thing, and then the tapes are gone right after they tell them that.

• 1:15:49Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, I thought you meant like, like their, their interview, the interview notes, or, you know, what was, what was provided to Arrow.

• 1:15:56Jesse Michels?

  No, I hear that the primary material, in certain cases, they'll say the location, and then there's a weird break in or something after.

• 1:16:03Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know, but, but I know there was an episode like this with Lou Elizondo, where he told them a particular location, an office, a safe, a safe drawer, and the only to be told that when, when they opened it up, there was nothing there.

• 1:16:22Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:16:23Speaker 04

  So, these are worrisome, worrisome reports, for sure. So, but Jesse, you know, you, you, you, you mentioned Robert Hastings and all of these events that happened at nuclear weapons sites. You know, this is, this is so important to, to this question about, does the government take this matter seriously? And again, you know, we started out talking about the Foo Fighter experience in World War II, but, you know, after the war, as soon as, as soon as the, you know, the, the

• 1:17:04Speaker 04

  United States started building substantial nuclear forces and facilities, you know, the, the, the, the, there's, there's just this constant visitation and monitoring by, at the least, by UAP. When you get into the 1960s, there are these amazing events that happen. You, you mentioned Robert Jacobs, the Big Sur event in 1964. But, you know, Dr. Harold Momgren has alerted the world, as it were, to, to events that took place in 1962.

• 1:17:50Speaker 04

  In fact, some of them at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis. This has been documented by, I think, you as well as Jeff Crookshank from Australia. And certainly a lot of Reddit users. You know, Harold Momgren, before he passed away, and what a tragic loss, I might add. He was such a, an incredible, you know, statesman, diplomat, defense thinker, economist, and so forth.

• 1:18:29Speaker 04

  But, you know, going back to 1962, he was the youngest of McNamara's whiz kids. He was involved in the day to day deliberations about what to do when the Cuban Missile Crisis happened. After the Cuban Missile Crisis was over, he was commissioned by McNamara to lead a study of the potential for missile defenses to contribute to presidential options when a future Cuban Missile Crisis might take place. And, and as no sooner had Harold Momgren been given that assignment, he was contacted

• 1:19:14Speaker 04

  by, by a famous CIA officer, Richard Bissell.

• 1:19:20Jesse Michels?

  Number two in the CIA Deputy Director.

• 1:19:22Speaker 04

  That's right. And Bissell met with Momgren and told him, he said, "Look, you've been given this assignment to develop missile defense options and to, you know, explore the potential for missile defenses to contribute to deterrence. And you need to know that in the test that happened in October 26, 1962, at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis, there was a test of a special warhead designed to produce enhanced X-ray output called the XW-51X-1 or something like that. It was amazing.

• 1:20:04Speaker 04

  Momgren, at 89 years old, rattled off the name of that warhead from memory."

• 1:20:10Jesse Michels?

  And that he's a genius.

• 1:20:13Speaker 04

  He is. And it was. Okay, so, so, taking you back specifically to that event, we set off that warhead. It was the Blue Gill Triple Prime Atmospheric Test. And it was designed to destroy a dummy reentry vehicle with this sizable warhead using enhanced X-rays. And the X-rays would, would have caused this chain of events in the target, where you would get this spallation from inside, the inside layers of the reentry vehicle, and it would tear apart the, the, the reentry vehicle.

• 1:20:56Speaker 04

  So this was the third attempt, as I recall, maybe even the fourth,

• 1:21:01Speaker 04

  to test this device in the atmosphere. And it was successful. It, it, it exploded as planned. And there were two RC-135 Cobra Ball airplanes up, taking video of this. One, I think, representing Los Alamos, one representing Lawrence Livermore Lab. And they, each of those aircraft filmed this fireball. And what happened to the test RV? And as soon as that fireball erupts, you see this object come tumbling out of the fireball, heading for the Pacific Ocean.

• 1:21:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, this video is available. It's open source. And, and you see, it's really crazy, because Lawrence Livermore, you see the object tumbling out. And then Los Alamos, you see a white, white triangle superimposing the video.

• 1:21:52Speaker 04

  I thought it was the other way around.

• 1:21:54Jesse Michels?

  Oh, maybe, maybe I'm wrong.

• 1:21:55Speaker 04

  I thought it was Livermore's.

• 1:21:57Jesse Michels?

  Was more secret.

• 1:21:57Speaker 04

  That covered up the, the object.

• 1:22:00Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:22:00Speaker 04

  And it was Los Alamos. And, and I think the warhead was a Los Alamos design.

• 1:22:05Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:22:05Speaker 04

  Uh, anyway, the trivia.

• 1:22:07Jesse Michels?

  No, no, no, that's good correction.

• 1:22:08Speaker 04

  But, uh, but, uh, yeah, so you actually see it, this object clearly, in the, in the Los Alamos video. And, and what, what, uh, Momgren reported, that he'd been told directly by Bissell, is that we downed a UFO that was monitoring, closely monitoring that test, and it tumbled into the ocean, and that the Navy picked it up.

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• 1:23:03Speaker 01

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• 1:23:17Speaker 04

  So you mentioned that the video of this test has been declassified and was released. I think it was back in the late 90s. And also released, or declassified and released, were the ship logs. Because in tests like that, and this was out near Johnston Atoll, the Navy would have a contingent of ships that would help to collect the debris and the sensors that had been deployed to watch the test. Okay, they would fall into the ocean, then they would be picked up. And part of the information in those ship's logs is that they picked up some highly radioactive debris. One was described as a black sphere.

• 1:24:02Speaker 04

  Another was described as a green tube that were not part of the instrument package that they were supposed to pick up. These were anomalous items floating in the water that they tested them with radioactive detectors, and they had been highly, they were highly radioactive, meaning they had been very close to the fireball. And they retrieved those. And then there's also a log that says the Navy also conducted a salvage operation. So this lines up perfectly with what Momgren was told by Richard Bissell.

• 1:24:40Jesse Michels?

  I think Momgren even more than that was in charge of costing for the, these missile defense systems. So he was, he was in charge of that. And I think he wanted to, he was like frustrated at not being sort of read in because he had blanket cue clearances. And so he then, as a result of that, goes and visits Lawrence Geis or Geese, who's Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather and the Albuquerque Director of the Atomic Energy Commission. Because the materials get taken from the Marshall Allen's Johnson and Tole to Sandia National Laboratories. And so Momgren actually investigates this on behalf of the Kennedy Administration. So the whole thing's so fascinating. And then I think a month later,

• 1:25:24Jesse Michels?

  Kennedy goes and visits Los Alamos, which, you know, I don't know, that's a coincidence.

• 1:25:28Speaker 04

  Actually, Kennedy, this has been documented by Jeff Krukshank.

• 1:25:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, amazing researcher.

• 1:25:36Speaker 04

  He's listed the, the attendees on that trip. And it was Kennedy and Johnson and the National Security Advisor, I think.

• 1:25:45Jesse Michels?

  George Mc, George McBundy.

• 1:25:47Speaker 04

  It was McBundy.

• 1:25:48Jesse Michels?

  McBundy, yeah.

• 1:25:49Speaker 04

  But then also, the famous general Curtis LeMay was, was part of that trip. And Curtis LeMay, of course, I think at the time was, was the commander of Wright Patterson Air Force Base. So at any event, there was an interesting, a very interesting delegation soon after the Cuban Missile Crisis does go on this tour of various nuclear installations and facilities out West. Momgren also made a trip during which, as you say, I think he met with Lawrence Geis or Geis, however you pronounce it, and, and others. So.

• 1:26:33Speaker 04

  So here's, here's the other interesting thing, though. Five weeks before that Bluegill triple prime test, there was another, uh, there was another test. This one was of a new, uh, reentry vehicle designed by a company that's now defunct, uh, or been absorbed many times over called AVCO. And, uh, AVCO had built a new reentry vehicle called the Mark IV. And this too, has all been declassified where, uh, in the test of that new RV, it is released, you know, close to the atmosphere and you see it traveling at very high speed and starting to re-enter the atmosphere.

• 1:27:17Speaker 04

  And all of a sudden behind it, you see this bright white light that catches up to the RV over a fairly significant distance. It catches up to the RV and accompanies it further in its trajectory. And in the official report, uh, made to the Defense Department about this test, it says right in there, "Objects of unknown origin and identity were tracking or pacing," I forget the exact words that were used, "this, uh, the Mark IV reentry vehicle." So this is a, this is a UFO. This is a UFO that is closely flying and catching up to a warhead that's going, I don't know, 10,000 miles an hour.

• 1:28:02Jesse Michels?

  What test was this? What was this called?

• 1:28:04Speaker 04

  Um, you know, Jesse, I don't remember the name of the test, but it's easily found. It's in, it was on September 19th, uh, 1962.

• 1:28:14Jesse Michels?

  Wow. And you see the records of?

• 1:28:16Speaker 04

  Oh, sure. The video is online.

• 1:28:19Jesse Michels?

  There's the video and you see it, you see a UFO catching up to?

• 1:28:21Speaker 04

  Yes, you see it. Uh, I mean, you don't, you don't see any details, but you see this, this white object, this luminous object come roaring up, uh, chasing, chasing the reentry vehicle.

• 1:28:33Jesse Michels?

  That's wild. Can, can you send that to me? I'd love to.

• 1:28:37Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 1:28:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. We'll, we'll link that for people.

• 1:28:40Speaker 04

  So, uh, so, so, and it was reported? In the official reports.

• 1:28:44Jesse Michels?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:28:45Speaker 04

  And, and so, so then, so then let's fast forward like two years and approximately a little 18 months. And Robert Jacobs is, has an assignment out in Big Sur, California to film this test of, of an ICBM launched from Vandenberg in Atlas. And, and it's got a dummy warhead on it. And according to Robert Jacobs and his commanding officer, Major Mansman, I mean, this is a well-known story.

• 1:29:18Speaker 04

  This reentry vehicle is moving at like, I forget the, the number, 9,000 to 12,000 miles an hour. And you see this, according to the witnesses of this video, that you see a UFO and it is saucer shaped. And it starts flying around the reentry vehicle.

• 1:29:37Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:29:37Speaker 04

  And shooting some beams at it. And that, and that it disabled this, this test reentry vehicle.

• 1:29:45Jesse Michels?

  And then CIA suits show up and kind of confiscate the video. And, and then basically Jacobs is erased from the government. You know, they say that he never worked at the government.

• 1:29:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:29:56Jesse Michels?

  And, um, yeah, the whole thing's kind of crazy. And then, and then he gets all these threats, his mailbox blows up. Eventually Florence Mansman, his superior, has to admit that actually Bob Jacobs did work in fact for Vandenberg and managed, you know, I think 130 people or something.

• 1:30:14Speaker 04

  Yes, his team was quite large.

• 1:30:16Jesse Michels?

  So now he's being sort of vindicated, but yeah, it's really wild what he had to sort of go through. And Lou Elzondo says that he has seen the video.

• 1:30:25Speaker 04

  That's correct. Lou says that he had a copy.

• 1:30:27Jesse Michels?

  And he says he has backups of the video. And so I would, Lou, if you're watching this, please release that video. Just release the video. I mean, that video would be so effective and powerful. Do you think it would be like the sources and methods thing that would endanger our? Because I mean, you're talking about 1964, you know, technology. I think that would just be a net positive for humanity and not reveal anything as far as.

• 1:30:50Speaker 04

  Well, there is a, there is a, there is a, an account that contests Robert Jacobs' account

• 1:30:59Speaker 04

  by, by a man with some very good credentials, who claims that Jacobs was confused about which date there's of this test and so on and so forth. It's a long, complicated story. But, you know, the Defense Department, Arrow, has taken the position that Jacobs was wrong in what he claims to have seen. But my point is, like, if you look back at what happened in 1962, as documented by Harold Momgren and others, and we have the video evidence, that lends a lot of credibility to Robert Jacobs' story.

• 1:31:44Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:31:44Speaker 04

  Because it's the same phenomenon.

• 1:31:46Jesse Michels?

  It's the same phenomenon. I mean, one, you could say, is sending X-rays out in a way that actually, if you have a, you know, a vehicle referencing the magnetosphere of the Earth, like, that's, a lot of people think that's how UFOs might fly, just like, you know, avian cryptochromes, like, these birds that have the CRY4 protein, they use electron spin to sense where the Earth is, and that helps them navigate home. So they use kind of quantum biology, quantum sensing, to actually navigate. That theoretically is how, you know, the UFOs might sense. And so if you're messing with the local magnetosphere, you could see these things sort of crashing. Whereas, I think the dummy blast, the nuclear

• 1:32:29Jesse Michels?

  dummy blast of, you know, 1964 with Bob Jacobs, that points a little more towards this sort of three-body problem, like, you know, the UFOs are sort of, you know, worried about, like, you know, the tip of the spear of our advancements in weaponry, they're worried about us disturbing, you know, our biosphere and taking ourselves out. Either way, very similar.

• 1:32:53Speaker 04

  It's a very similar phenomenon. And the point is, is that it appears, like, routinely, UAP were flying around, watching our ICBM tests and our nuclear warhead tests in the atmosphere.

• 1:33:07Jesse Michels?

  Well, there's so much documentation of that. If you just, if anybody actually reads Robert Hastings' book, which is, I feel like that half the reason my show exists is to just tell people to read that book. Because that's like the most, you know, it's just so canonical and detailed and documented. You have these- I don't know, I'm a big fan of Joe Rogan, but it's like, sometimes I'm like, dude, just read that book and you'll like be a little less confused because at least you can start with a foundation. You're not having to ping off of all these disparate kind of, you know, contemporary witnesses. Just read that book. Like, I always, he's like, doesn't have time, he's very busy. But, you know, or Tulsi, or any of these people in power, like, just read that. But that book is so, because it helps you start with a baseline of like, you know,

• 1:33:51Jesse Michels?

  like, that would be a huge, that would be like the bottom of the Jenga block as far as my like intellectual foundation of this. So if you were to pull that, it would be, you know, I would have to admit, it would really shake my foundation on this whole, this whole topic. But it's just so solid. It's so meticulously written. And, you know, I think if you actually read it and you talk to Hastings, you know, who I've become friends with, it's, it's, it's hard to deny. So

• 1:34:18Speaker 04

  It is. Well, Jesse, one final thing on this, on this, on this point is that, I mean, imagine this. We, we resumed atmospheric testing in 1962 after the Soviets violated the unofficial moratorium on atmospheric nuclear tests. So we resumed testing. We're going through this very, very tense, obviously, this crisis with the Soviet Union over, over missiles in Cuba. And during this, during, at the height of this, this UFO is downed by, by a nuclear warhead.

• 1:34:55Speaker 04

  Okay. And, and on September 19th, you have this UFO tracking, catching up with a warhead, the Avco warhead, going 10,000, 12,000 miles an hour. Two years later, you have it, the same thing happened with Robert Jacobs event in, in California. Do you, can you imagine the Defense Department just saying, oh, well, these UFOs are tracking our shit?

• 1:35:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:23Speaker 04

  And, but we don't, we're not concerned about that?

• 1:35:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:26Speaker 04

  I mean, it's inconceivable. They would have been, they would have been crapping in their pants.

• 1:35:30Jesse Michels?

  Of course. Yeah.

• 1:35:32Speaker 04

  And there's nothing else that could, I mean, do you think that the Soviets at that time had an ability across the world to have a spaceship?

• 1:35:43Speaker 04

  That could accelerate faster than an incoming RV and, and, and catch up to it and monitor it?

• 1:35:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:51Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:35:51Jesse Michels?

  And in the case of Bob Salas, you know, Malmstrom 1967, literally shut down our missile silo.

• 1:35:56Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:35:57Jesse Michels?

  Like, no, that's obviously not the.

• 1:35:59Speaker 04

  If you can shut down our ICBMs, I mean.

• 1:36:02Jesse Michels?

  You win game, set, match. You win the war.

• 1:36:04Speaker 04

  That's the, that is the scariest thing that you can imagine for the National Command Authority.

• 1:36:09Jesse Michels?

  No, the Soviets would have won the war. If you had that ability to do that in a repeatable, predictable way, technologically, that would be, that would be it.

• 1:36:16Speaker 04

  So anyone who thinks that the United States government wouldn't have been paying the closest possible attention to the UFO phenomena all these years, it's, it's nuts. It's inconceivable to me.

• 1:36:27Jesse Michels?

  I fully agree with you. Um, on that note, how do we get better whistleblower protections? You know, in 2023 timeframe, we had this Gallagher amendment to the National Defense Authorization Act, specifically to the Schumer amendment and, uh, you know, the UAP disclosure, you know, initiative as part of the, the yearly defense budget. And everybody thought after we got the Gallagher amendment, you know, you'd have, you know, this sort of breaking down the dam of, of people coming out and, and, and speaking about the UFO issue. Uh, why do you think that hasn't been effective? And do you think we end up with stronger whistleblower protection so people can actually come out?

• 1:37:07Speaker 04

  Well, this too is, uh, is a kind of, um, is a kind of, uh, catch 22, you know? We need whistleblowers, uh, you know, more sources with direct involvement to come forward. I hear this constantly from, from folks on the Hill, both before I retired and since. And yet whistleblowers don't want to come forward because they're afraid of retribution and retaliation. And, and so then you say, well, we need better whistleblower protections. But to get whistleblower protections, uh, you have to convince people in Congress who,

• 1:37:52Speaker 04

  uh, who are worried about the, what is the right balance of whistleblower protections versus, uh, versus, uh, you know, good order and discipline and having people, uh, having people follow, uh, follow orders and stay in their place in the bureaucracy and so on. The whole degree of general whistleblower protections is, is, is complex. Uh, I don't pretend to understand the politics of it, but I know enough to know that it is a complicated issue. And if you come forward and say, I need special protections for a special limited

• 1:38:31Speaker 04

  class of people, uh, then everyone else who wants to protect, uh, whistleblowers says, oh, why should I give you special protections for one small class of people? We need to expand protections for everybody. And then, but then you have, uh, those who are dubious about enhanced whistleblower protections, uh, saying, well, we're not going to do that.

• 1:38:56Jesse Michels?

  So do you have a solution to this?

• 1:38:57Speaker 04

  Um, well, uh, a solution is a little bit hard to come by. Uh, but I think that we just have to hope for one of two things. Either the executive branch decides it's going to pursue disclosure or B, we get more people to, uh, gird their loins and, and decide that, uh, that it's just something that has to be done. They don't have to go public. Um, my view-

• 1:39:27Jesse Michels?

  The problem with that is it ends up in this liminal space of like-

• 1:39:30Speaker 04

  It does.

• 1:39:30Jesse Michels?

  You're sort of repeating their account and you have to do it in that really high level. Like, I'm not convinced if somebody went on one of these whistleblowers, just went on Rogan, like tomorrow and just talked about what they know and they really tried to protect the, you know, national trade secret side of this, but just was, it was really clear that, you know, it's sort of Bob Lazar 2.0, but without the details that, you know, make it- You know, easy to sort of, you know, detract from, from the testimony. I think that would A, get tons and tons of attention. And B, you'd have sort of this like people's champion immunity. And you'd have a president and Trump and his whole cabinet that has promised, you know, transparency.

• 1:40:14Jesse Michels?

  Maybe they don't quite understand the UFO issue. Maybe it's not a priority. But seeing that person after, you know, going so, being so public, getting persecuted. I, I don't know. I think that's, that feels like, that would be a very tall order.

• 1:40:29Speaker 04

  Jesse, I'm with you. I think that going public can really bring some protections for you. Now, you know, Dave Grusch might say, you know, what about me? Cause they went after him even when he went public as a result of him going public. So I, I get it. It's a, it's a complex.

• 1:40:48Jesse Michels?

  But I think he felt.

• 1:40:49Speaker 04

  calculation.

• 1:40:50Jesse Michels?

  I think he feels safer post going public than pre. The, the scariest period is when they, they probably have intel that you're going to go public.

• 1:40:57Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:40:57Jesse Michels?

  And you haven't gone public yet.

• 1:40:58Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:40:59Jesse Michels?

  But once you've gone public, it's, it's pretty hard to, you know, completely destroy somebody's life. I mean, that's.

• 1:41:05Speaker 04

  Jesse, I will also say.

• 1:41:06Jesse Michels?

  Especially in the digital age, people are waking up and they can trace things better. And I think they're sniffing out BS, to be honest, just on, on levels that, you know, it's like you had the whole Epstein. The Epstein thing went on for so long and other things like it. And I don't see things like that quite working today. I mean, the things that do work today are like, you know, mass surveillance and leaders was like super quiet stuff. But like really going after individuals and trying to blackmail, like that stuff's, it's, it's, I don't think that's super effective on a go forward basis.

• 1:41:38Speaker 04

  I tend to agree with you. And, you know, the other thing is, is that.

• 1:41:47Speaker 04

  The people in, the people who are close to people who we want to come forward, you know, the, the Hal Podoff, Eric Davis, Dave Grusch, Lou Elizondo, Chris Mellon, and so on, you know, they all tell us that they know people who, whose, whose preference would be to be able to tell the truth about this. But they, what they report is that these sources are afraid of not, you know, losing their jobs, losing their clearances, which effectively ends their career in national security, but they also are dreadfully worried about being prosecuted.

• 1:42:28Speaker 04

  And, you know, but, but my view about that is that, you know, I just don't believe that it, that it would happen. First of all, I don't either. There's a young lawyer named Dylan Guthrie, who's got a piece that's come out in, in Harvard Law Review, I believe. And in a, in a small section of his, of his lengthy article, he talks about the fact that he has done at least some investigating, and he has found so far that there is not a single instance that he's come across

• 1:43:07Speaker 04

  where a person got indicted and prosecuted, or even indicted, I think, for having revealed information in an appropriately secure manner with Congress. Okay?

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• 1:43:52Speaker 01

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• 1:44:06Speaker 04

  Uh, this isn't about going public, but you know, if you contact Congress and behind closed doors, you convey to them information that, uh, was not yet shared or shared in full with Congress by the executive branch. The government has never prosecuted a case like that. And, and because it gets into very murky constitutional issues about what are the rights and privileges of the executive branch versus the legislative branch, right? Okay. Moreover, imagine this. Imagine if a whistleblower, a source, comes to the Senate Intelligence Committee and says,

• 1:44:49Speaker 04

  here's what I know and lays it all out. And the government then says, the executive branch says, you shouldn't, it's against, it's against our rules for you to have said that to Congress. We're going to indict you and prosecute you. Now imagine that, right? So something that for 80 years, the government has denied the existence of.

• 1:45:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:45:10Speaker 04

  Right? And, and Congress has passed laws requiring that it be kept fully informed of any, anything of significance for national security. So the executive branch has violated the law, right? The Congress passed and the president signed. Imagine them coming forward and said, yeah, we didn't tell Congress about this, but we're going to prosecute you for telling Congress.

• 1:45:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, you put, you put them in a bind.

• 1:45:33Speaker 04

  Good luck.

• 1:45:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, they, yeah, they have to admit that they, that they have knowledge of this.

• 1:45:38Speaker 04

  And, and the hypocrisy of such a step like that, I think Congress would be, I personally think they would be outraged.

• 1:45:45Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 1:45:46Speaker 04

  And, and would not abide for, abide it. And so I, I actually, I actually think that the, that the, uh, the fear of prosecution is, is, is unfounded. Now, easy for me to say, I'm not the, the person whose livelihood and, and security depends on. Uh, you know, is at stake here. So I'm, I'm certainly, uh, I'm certainly, uh,

• 1:46:17Speaker 04

  understanding if people listening to this would say, yeah, fine for you to say, but, uh, but I'm not, I'm not taking the chance. But I really think that, uh, that it's something that, that we have to, we have to resolve. We have to figure out a way around this catch 22.

• 1:46:35Jesse Michels?

  We definitely do. A lot of this stuff seemed to come out around, you know, you have the church committee of 1975 and he was, I think it was a senator from Idaho, Frank Church. He looked into all sorts of malfeasance on the part of the intelligence community stemming from, you know, Watergate, obviously rumors of like the, you know, Warren Commission around JFK assassination being totally compromised. I believe it was. Um, but also other revelations of, you know, MKUltra and that sort of thing. Do you think any of that dovetails with this kind of UAP issue? Especially maybe with respect to MKUltra where we know now that they were doing kind of experiments around telepathy. Like you had this guy Andre Puharich, who was doing experiments with,

• 1:47:20Jesse Michels?

  you know, telepathic kids.

• 1:47:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:47:22Jesse Michels?

  And is there a connection? Because when people claim to be abducted, they seem to communicate telepathically with the alien beings.

• 1:47:29Speaker 04

  Yeah. Jesse, I think it's a great question and it's something that I am really intrigued by. Cause you know, uh, in the 1950s, from the early 50s, I believe, I'm not a, I'm not a serious student of this yet. I'm certainly trying to read more and more about it. But from the 50s on up through some say it never went away, even after the, the church committee.

• 1:47:57Speaker 04

  You know, about they were looking into mind control.

• 1:48:02Speaker 04

  You know, remote viewing, you know, clairvoyance, all of that. And, and, and that, that overlay is in time with us learning that people who encounter non-human intelligence, they're being communicated with telepathically. And so just coincidentally, coincidentally, the United States government all of a sudden decides to start investigating the same, you know, psychic powers and psychic issues. You know, it looks, that, that's, looks very suspicious to me.

• 1:48:46Speaker 04

  Like, one of the main reasons I suspect that we were studying that stuff and had those programs was because of what we were learning about UFOs and extraterrestrials. Admittedly, we had soldiers in the Korean War who were subjected to mind control stuff, you know, by the North Koreans and the Russians. So that, you know, that certainly was, was a stimulus, right? That I, that I can't discount and I don't want to discount. But, but the rest of it is, as I think you're suggesting, is, is, is very suspicious in terms of the, the overlay with, with the UFO problem.

• 1:49:29Speaker 04

  I would also like to mention, I recently was told about the, these things called the telepathy tapes, which is, is getting a lot of attention now. And I've, I've listened to, you know, a dozen of them. And for those who, who aren't familiar with this, these are, are, are podcasts, I guess, sessions, lengthy ones, a whole series of them, about caregivers and, and, and neuroscientists and psychologists who are working with non-speaking autistic people.

• 1:50:11Speaker 04

  Children as well as I, as adults, as they, as they've grown up. And these, these people, uh, it seems pretty clear have some mental telepathy capabilities. And they, they connect with each other across vast distances.

• 1:50:31Jesse Michels?

  The experiments need to be done more rigorously and with, you know, double blind experimentation protocols. But if you just listen to the tapes, it's overwhelmingly obvious to a person who's not dogmatic, that there's something going on.

• 1:50:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:50:45Jesse Michels?

  And that's not explained by modern scientific paradigm.

• 1:50:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:50:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:51Speaker 04

  That's, that's correct.

• 1:50:54Speaker 04

  Now, you know, you mentioned earlier, uh, how put offs, uh, work on instantaneous communications. And, and so, so, you know, Hal is searching for a physics explanation for, for telepathy. And probably, uh, leading into remote viewing and, and so forth. So what, what we have is the, is the fact of, uh, telepathy happening between human beings and non-human extraterrestrials. We seem to have communication among just humans, uh, among autistic, uh, non-speaking, uh, people.

• 1:51:37Speaker 04

  And then you have a physics explanation that, uh, that Hal Putoff and others are working on, which involve, uh, so-called highly technical terms, scaler and vector potentials.

• 1:51:52Speaker 04

  Okay, so the only thing that's kind of missing here is like, can the human brain mimic what Hal is talking about? And so is the human brain? Wired in such a way, architected in such a way that it, that it can function in these quantum mechanical ways. And in terms of, of modern extended electrodynamics. And if, and there are some hints, at least out there in the medical profession, at least as a layman. I've, I think I'm seeing that, that suggests that, that this is possibly the case.

• 1:52:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, I mean, you have, it's converging on an answer. We don't have an answer, but it's like, okay, so you have Roger Penrose, who's a very well respected physicist. You know, you know, worked on black holes and collaborated with Stephen Hawking.

• 1:52:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:52:53Jesse Michels?

  Nobel Prize winner.

• 1:52:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:52:55Jesse Michels?

  And he, you know, was sort of laughed out of the room because you can't talk about consciousness in those circles. But he has this very interesting theory called orchestrated objective reduction, which, you know, involves a quantum biological process where we collapse Schrodinger's wave function. And you could say, you could dismiss that out of hand, you know, whatever. But we know that there are other quantum biological processes you can now prove. I mentioned the thing of birds navigating via the magnetosphere of the earth with electron spin and the specific avian cryptochrome protein. But there are other examples. There's, you know, enzyme creation, there's quantum tunneling around DNA. And so, and I believe photosynthesis, we now think is, involves quantum biological processes.

• 1:53:39Jesse Michels?

  So the idea that the, you know, the body, which is warm, wet and noisy is not, you know, can't allow for quantum coherence is, is going out the window. So then you have to open up this idea of maybe the Penrose model is right. And then at the same time, you have this idea that the government studied non-local consciousness modalities for decades.

• 1:53:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:53:58Jesse Michels?

  And this idea of the idea that, you know, where does thought even come from? It's clearly not being locally produced. When you're daydreaming, you're not constructing your thoughts actively. It seems like you're receiving them from elsewhere. And then you have all the remote viewing data that Jessica Utz, who is the president of the American Statistical Society, reviewed. For the CIA, saying that, you know, this is extremely replicable, like well beyond like other scientific fields as far as the p-values, you know, the probabilities that you'd you'd get hits on these sort of remote viewing targets. And so that seems like a, you know, consciousness is this sort of really non-local thing, which again, comports with quantum

• 1:54:37Jesse Michels?

  entanglement and the quantum stuff. So I don't think it's so crazy to say that you have phenomenologically all this evidence with remote viewing and the telepathy tapes, even though, you know, in the telepathy tapes, you know, in certain cases, it's anecdotal, but I think it's, I think it's pretty overwhelming. And then in the CIA case, it's actually statistically relevant with Jessica Utz, who's a total good faith actor and, you know, she seems very, very earnest. And then, and then meanwhile, you have this kind of burgeoning field of quantum biology. And so I think we'll probably discover something around that somewhat soon. And I've spoken to Hal Puthoff about this. You know, do, do we have extended electro dynamical models that might, you know, line up with consciousness? And he pointed me

• 1:55:21Jesse Michels?

  towards the work of Cleve Baxter, who, you know, he talks about like plant communication. And, and so, yeah, I think he's, you know, interested in this as well. Is there a sort of some sort of physicalist model of where we can eventually decode carrier, you know, a carrier of thought itself? Because I mean, another example, there's their anecdotal examples of you have like Lucille Ball, who had a filling in her tooth. This is in the telepathy tapes. And she's driving on some overpass and she starts to hear the radio in her head. And this is a well-known, this is scientifically proven as well. It's called bone induction, where you have, you have metal in the mouth could, you know, pick

• 1:56:05Jesse Michels?

  up RF signals. And you can, you know, all of a sudden hear things. And I think Andrej Purić had a similar case where it was like somebody working in a, you know, a metal mill or whatever, you know, metallic ore got in his teeth. And, you know, all of a sudden, he was, he was being, you know, he's transmitting signals from elsewhere. So. I think there's so much to discover, you know, in this area. And it's probably not traditional radio frequency because if you can, if the consciousness is happening, you know, non-locally, if you are in a Faraday chamber, you shouldn't be able to think, given that, right? Because that's cutting out all RF signals. So like, yeah, presumably it's something else.

• 1:56:50Jesse Michels?

  And maybe it is this extended electro-dynamical model that, you know, might explain thought. Who knows? I mean, we're super early in this.

• 1:56:56Speaker 04

  Well, the ability to project thoughts, you know, to transmit them out of your own head and into somebody else's head, you know? And for them to be able to perceive it, receive and perceive it is, you know, I mean, something, something, there has to be a physics explanation for how non-human intelligence communicates with the humans that they encounter telepathically. I mean, I believe it happens and there has to be a way to figure out how, how that happens.

• 1:57:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. But do you have any hope for, you know, this is so beneficial to humanity, which I think both of us think it is if we let this stuff out, you know? Do you have any hope for the president disclosing this? And why hasn't, you know, Trump already disclosed this? Because you have Donald Trump Jr. interviewing Ross Colthart on the eve of his breaking of the Jake Barber story. So like, you know, clearly like there's connectivity of, there's people in the Trump admin who are very aware of this issue. I think Tim Walz has, you know, spoken about David Grusch publicly in his revelations and like, you know, is very interested. And I think Tulsi is very interested.

• 1:58:18Jesse Michels?

  She said, you know, she wants UAP transparency, you know? And I've had a brief conversation with her around this topic as well. She seems very, she seems to know it's real and that she, you know, she wants to like. Put this stuff out, but, but it also feels like with a lot of these people, they have so many other priorities. And so, yeah, what do you think happens?

• 1:58:38Speaker 04

  Uh, I, I, I can't even hazard a guess, uh, um, uh, Jesse, because I, I don't have any connections into those circles and I don't know what, uh, what's being said. Um, you know, privately, I don't have, I don't have any, any idea. So I'm, uh, I'm certainly hopeful, uh, but, um, but I, I have no insight. I'm sorry to say.

• 1:59:05Jesse Michels?

  No, it's okay. Well, any other things you want to touch on or?

• 1:59:09Speaker 04

  I am interested in, um, in, uh, in talking about what, what the, uh, the mindset might have been for the Atomic Energy Commission and the Intelligence Community and the Defense Department.

• 1:59:24Jesse Michels?

  Can I, can I tee you off and ask a quick question on that? Okay. So why do you think this was made secret in the first place? It's just, you know, it should be kind of ontological truth, right? It should be basic kind of, you know, an understanding of, you know, whether we're alone in the universe should not be classified, right?

• 1:59:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's, uh, that's, that's a really good point. Uh, but you know, what, what I've thought about that, to the extent I've thought about it, uh, Jesse is, um, is I think like,

• 1:59:54Speaker 04

  right after the war, the leadership in the country, thinking back on the events of the previous couple of decades and probably felt that the, that we were just exhausted. I mean, we'd been through two world wars, uh, this long lasting depression. We were entering into, uh, what we were already into a cold war with a, with a communist, um, uh, regime in, uh, in, in, in Russia. Um, and, um, and here we were, you know, experiencing, uh, you know, having to deal with the reality of, uh, of UFOs and extraterrestrial life.

• 2:00:41Speaker 04

  Or and the like. And I can just so imagine the view that that this would be another cataclysmic shock to to the to society and the world order and the world's religions. We were barely, you know, a decade removed from Orson Welles' War of the Worlds.

• 2:01:06Speaker 04

  Event, I think that was in 1938 and

• 2:01:10Jesse Michels?

  That literally touched off mass hysteria was this reading of H G Wells' War of the Worlds by Orson Welles, famous auteur director, and people went nuts until they realized it was not real.

• 2:01:22Speaker 04

  Well, that's right, but it but it was it was a lesson, right, that that the leadership of the country could could take and and and say, you know, this can't be a good idea to let to let people know about this. And I guess I can also imagine that

• 2:01:46Speaker 04

  that, you know, we wanted to figure out, we wanted to figure out what it was all about before we would even ever consider

• 2:01:55Speaker 04

  letting letting this out. You know, when when when Roswell allegedly happened, it took it took very little time for Washington to react. Like, you know, what was it, Jesse Marcel or whoever was the was the

• 2:02:13Speaker 04

  the press person down at Roswell?

• 2:02:15Jesse Michels?

  Marcel was the Air Force Intelligence Officer Walter Haught, I believe.

• 2:02:20Speaker 04

  Okay, Haught was the public relations guy.

• 2:02:23Jesse Michels?

  Colonel Blanchard was kind of dealing with with Haught. And then who was the was it Ramey was the guy?

• 2:02:30Speaker 04

  General Ramey was from the

• 2:02:31Jesse Michels?

  Fort Worth.

• 2:02:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, Fort Worth.

• 2:02:33Jesse Michels?

  And he was like, guys, shut up, you know, don't put this out.

• 2:02:36Speaker 04

  Well, and and, you know, it didn't take long, like, word went out that they had made this announcement back to Washington. And the order to shut the hell up and bottle this up came came pretty quick, you know. I've always been impressed by that. It it it sort of belies the the lethargy of of the bureaucracy, you know.

• 2:03:04Speaker 04

  Um, almost as if, uh, uh, there had been some, uh, you know, long-term awareness and a decision already made in Washington, like, this is bad news. And so wherever it pops up, uh, you gotta, you gotta react to it pretty quickly.

• 2:03:22Jesse Michels?

  And Roswell was the site of the only American nuclear stockpile at the time.

• 2:03:26Speaker 04

  That's right. And, and bomber force.

• 2:03:28Jesse Michels?

  And bomber force.

• 2:03:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:03:29Jesse Michels?

  Under, yeah. Five hundred ninth bomber, atomic bomber squad.

• 2:03:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right. Um, so, uh, so I certainly think that, uh, that that, you know, that there, that there was, uh, a reason for this immediate reaction. But Jesse, um, on a sustained basis, you know, the, uh, the executive branch, if, if, if people like us are correct, that, that they really have known, uh, and studied carefully this to the best of their ability, uh, within bureaucratic constraints and budget constraints and so on, that they have accumulated, uh, a lot of information about this, uh, over the decades.

• 2:04:16Speaker 04

  And if, as some believe, you know, if you look at, well, if you just look at alleged UAP performance, uh, there's some mighty interesting technology involved there. And if the government knows about that, but has chosen to keep it from being applied to solve, you know, the pressing needs of the American people and indeed society the world over, you know, for, um, travel, aerospace travel, for energy, um, and who knows what else? Um, you know, why, why would the government have decided? And, and, and frankly, this

• 2:04:58Speaker 04

  is one of the criticisms of, of this view by skeptics is, look, if the military could fly.

• 2:05:08Speaker 04

  You know, craft around like UFOs. Do you think they would have scrolled it away where so, so what if they have like 12 of them or something? We have thousands of F-35s and F-15s and F-16s. Why wouldn't we have applied this technology to our entire military force? You know, why are we still powering armored vehicles with, with, with diesel fuel and gasoline? If we had the ability to take electrical power right from the physical vacuum?

• 2:05:41Jesse Michels?

  Why, why haven't we used a hydrogen bomb yet? You know?

• 2:05:45Speaker 04

  Um, well, you know, yeah, I mean, I think the hydrogen bomb predated our mastery, any mastery of this technology, but, but sure.

• 2:05:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I'm just saying like we have all sorts of, we have all sorts of ace in the whole tech that we haven't allowed to be shown to the public for, for very.

• 2:06:01Speaker 04

  Well, you know, but, but the public knows about it and we've applied it to our forces.

• 2:06:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:05Speaker 04

  In a, in a, in a, in an observable, informed way.

• 2:06:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:10Speaker 04

  Like we, we, everybody knows we've invested in, in hundreds of ICBMs and, and, and sea-based ballistic missiles and so on. So why would you limit this technology's reach if we actually had analyzed it and, and reversed engineered any of it? And, and that's a, it's a legitimate and, and difficult question to answer. Um, I don't have an answer, but my own speculation is that I can think of a reason why the government might have take, might take that position. And, and the answer would be ala our previous discussions about Nikola Tesla, TT Brown,

• 2:06:53Speaker 04

  and lots of others, is what if the government discovered that it's not that hard?

• 2:06:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:59Speaker 04

  After all, to, to access the physical vacuum and extract energy from it? And what if, yeah, that energy is extremely potent and can be weaponized?

• 2:07:12Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 2:07:12Speaker 04

  And, and what if it's not that hard to do that? And in fact, doesn't even require mammoth engineering enterprises like our nuclear establishment requires. Um, so that, you know, a Kim Jong-un could be doing this in some warehouse someplace, right?

• 2:07:31Jesse Michels?

  That'd be disastrous. And I would, and if that were the case, I would hope that. There's some sort of strategy, strategic thinking around how to let some of this stuff partially out or in a black boxed way or in a way that, you know, the Western forces control or whatever. And I would fully comply with that because I don't want, you know, Kim Jong Un to have

• 2:07:55Speaker 04

  To have a beam weapon.

• 2:07:56Jesse Michels?

  No, I don't.

• 2:07:57Speaker 04

  Vaporize New York City.

• 2:07:58Jesse Michels?

  That might be where I deviate with UFO circles is like, I don't want dictators that would literally, if they had the capabilities to destroy the US, by hitting a button, they would. And so, yeah, or use that as

• 2:08:11Speaker 04

  Or some doomsday cult or something.

• 2:08:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Or you trade soul for San Francisco with that, you know, if you're talking about the Kim Jong Un thing. So, yeah, I, or yeah, some doomsday cult or, you know, accelerationist want you want to bring, bring about, you know, some eschatological, you know, apotheosis. I don't know. So, so, yeah, no, I'm, I'm with that.

• 2:08:31Speaker 04

  So, anyway, this is, this is one possible, possible explanation that, that I thought of where I could reconcile with observable facts. I, of course, well, once again, I want to stress because I'm sure my friends, Hal Putoff and Eric Davis and others, whoever, whoever watched this will, will be upset with me for even suggesting this because, because they don't think that it's, or they say they don't think that it is as possible. But what if it is, you know, then the government, the government, but, but, but, you know, my

• 2:09:13Speaker 04

  problem with this, Jesse, is that even if they've got good reasons for doing what they did, in other words, if their, if their intentions were noble.

• 2:09:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:23Speaker 04

  I just don't see that you can lock out. The United States Congress, I mean, look, I came from Congress. I'm a career there. I'm an institutionalist. Congress, under our mode of government, has to be involved in managing this, in oversight of this, in resourcing it, and balancing interests and concerns. So, you know, look, you know, you don't have to reveal all this publicly, but you sure have to at least bring Congress in as a partner. And that's been my, that's been my objective in this whole, in this whole thing.

• 2:10:07Speaker 04

  I mean, my primary objective is to get this under a proper sort of constitutional framework.

• 2:10:17Speaker 04

  So.

• 2:10:19Jesse Michels?

  Cool.

• 2:10:20Speaker 04

  That's how I would answer your question.

• 2:10:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, Kirk McConnell, it's an honor to have you on. I really appreciate your time. This is a blast and, yeah, would love to, would love to have you back at some point. And, yeah, thank you for everything you're doing and I hope you are enjoying your time out of government.

• 2:10:37Speaker 04

  Well, thank you very much. I do miss it, but, but I also don't miss it, if you know what I mean.

• 2:10:42Jesse Michels?

  I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. All right, man.

• 2:10:44Speaker 04

  Thanks so much.

• 2:10:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 2:10:46Speaker 04

  It's a real honor.

• 2:10:47Jesse Michels?

  Oh, it's an honor to have you.

• 2:10:48Speaker 04

  To be on your show.

• 2:10:48Jesse Michels?

  I'm underqualified to interview you, so thank you.

• 2:10:51Speaker 04

  Oh, hard.

• 2:10:52Jesse Michels?

  Awesome. What is up, alchemists? If you're interested in joining group calls with me and accessing exclusive, never-before-seen episodes of American Alchemy, like my walk and talk with Danny Sheehan on who exactly killed JFK, or a remote viewing debate between Hal Putoff and Eric Weinstein, then please join our WAP community today. We've been sitting on a ton of unreleased footage that we will now be releasing on our new WAP. I also hosted a discussion between the infamous Jack Sarpotti and former American alchemist Science Bob McGuire. Head over to wap.com/jesse michaels, "Michaels" with no "A," to become a member today.