559 Make Your Brand the Best in the World with Bozoma Saint John

"You have to fill that void by using an asset they will listen to. - Bozoma Saint John Ever wonder who is the mastermind behind successful campaigns by brands such as Pepsi and Beats by Dre? Well it's the same person who is looked at as the savior for Uber - Bozoma Saint John. Bozoma or Boz has lead an incredible and inspiring life. She grew up in Africa, learned to speak three languages, and has pushed through so many hardships it's absolutely amazing. Boz started her early career working for Spike Lee. She started by getting coffee, and doing everything needed around the office (including fixing the coffee machine). By chance one day she was given a script to look over, and the notes she made instantly boosted her career into an expert of branding and campaign management. She went on to lead marketing at Pepsi, which became an era of her life when she went through her toughest personal struggle. Her husband was diagnosed with cancer, and only had six months left to live... Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 559 with Bozoma St. John.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:32Lewis Howes?

  A brand for a company is like a reputation for a person. You earn reputation by trying to do hard things well. By Jeff Bezos. And today, we've got Bozoma St. John on, who is the Chief Brand Officer at Uber as of June 2017. And previously, she was a marketing executive at Apple Music, where she came over from Beats. And before that, she was at PepsiCo, heading their music and entertainment marketing. She has been listed on Billboard Magazine's list of the top women in music, Fast Company's 100 Most Creative People, and Adweek's Most Exciting Personalities in Advertising. She was awarded Executive Woman

• 1:11Lewis Howes?

  of the Year by Billboard Music in 2016. And I had a blast connecting with Boz here in the studio in Los Angeles. And what we covered are why she left Apple Music to head up branding at Uber, how to cultivate your intuition, the big mistakes that brands make once they are successful, the true power of marketing, and why people will forgive anything you do if you ignite their passion. This one's all about her story, how she's built massive brands, and how she's managed brands that maybe have gone through some periods of dislike in the public space. And before we dive in, want to give a shout out to the fan of the

• 1:52Lewis Howes?

  week. This is from Blake Sales, who says, "You won't regret listening to this podcast. The various topics and interviews with other respected individuals will make a difference in your life, and you will continuously want to utilize them as a resource to be more well-rounded individual. Thank you for making a difference in so many people's lives." So, Blake Sales, thank you for being the review of the week. And if you guys want a chance to be shouted out on the podcast, then make sure to leave a review over on iTunes right now, or on the podcast app that you're listening to, and get a chance to be a shout out for the week. All right, guys, I think you're gonna love this one. A powerful story, powerful conversation, and powerful human being.

• 2:35Lewis Howes?

  Give it up for the one, the only Bozoma St. John.

• 2:45Lewis Howes?

  Welcome, everyone, back to the School of Greatness Podcast. We have Boz St. John in the house. Good to see you.

• 2:51Bozoma Saint John?

  Hi.

• 2:51Lewis Howes?

  I'm very excited. Our mutual friend Lacey connected us. She was hounding me. She said, "You gotta know who this person is. You gotta have her on." I didn't know who you were until she was like, sending me every video about you.

• 3:03Bozoma Saint John?

  She was obsessive.

• 3:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, she was like, "No, this is my queen," right? She was like obsessed with you. I said, "Okay, let me, let me start digging in deeper." And I watched some of your videos and heard more of your story and was just like, "Okay, yeah, we need Boz in the house." So I'm excited that you're here.

• 3:18Bozoma Saint John?

  Yay.

• 3:18Lewis Howes?

  Congrats on everything that you've, you know, you've achieved and the impact you've made and the barriers you've broken through in the business world. It's really cool.

• 3:26Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 3:27Lewis Howes?

  And you're originally from Ghana, right? And you lived in Ghana for a number of years?

• 3:31Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, yes. My parents are from Ghana.

• 3:32Lewis Howes?

  Parents are from Ghana.

• 3:33Bozoma Saint John?

  I was born in the US.

• 3:35Lewis Howes?

  Born in the US, but then you moved when you were young to Ghana.

• 3:37Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, six months old.

• 3:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 3:38Bozoma Saint John?

  So I had no recollection.

• 3:40Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 3:40Bozoma Saint John?

  Of my time in the US before Ghana.

• 3:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 3:43Bozoma Saint John?

  So that's why I claim that I'm from Ghana.

• 3:44Lewis Howes?

  Got it, got it.

• 3:45Bozoma Saint John?

  Because that's where my earliest memories are.

• 3:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And when did you move back?

• 3:49Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, well, there were a series of things that happened along the way. When I was five, my dad was in parliament and the government of Ghana for a president named Hila Liman, who was overthrown in 1982 in a coup d'etat. And my dad was thrown into political, um, political detention. So we had to flee the country. My mom, who was pregnant with my youngest daughter, uh, youngest daughter, my youngest sister. And my two other younger sisters. So she had three young children, six and under, and pregnant.

• 4:18Lewis Howes?

  How old were you?

• 4:19Bozoma Saint John?

  I was six.

• 4:20Lewis Howes?

  Six, wow.

• 4:20Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. And so we came to the US, to Washington DC, political asylum.

• 4:24Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 4:25Bozoma Saint John?

  And then we were in the US for about a year. My dad was released. He joined us here. But he's always been very politically active. And so he wants to return to Africa, although we couldn't go back to Ghana. So we went to Nairobi, Kenya. Where we were for about three years until it became democratic in Ghana again. And then we went back.

• 4:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow. How long in Kenya, three years, you said?

• 4:46Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, about three years, in Nairobi.

• 4:47Lewis Howes?

  My first, I went to a private boarding school in eighth grade. And, and I was in a, in a middle school boys dorm. And my first roommate was from Kenya.

• 4:55Bozoma Saint John?

  Really?

• 4:56Lewis Howes?

  He spoke like seven languages, Swahili, Kukuyu, like all these languages.

• 4:59Bozoma Saint John?

  This is what I'm saying, yes.

• 5:00Lewis Howes?

  It was crazy.

• 5:01Bozoma Saint John?

  This is the thing, is it like, you know, I think there's, there's such a crazy misperception about Africans. But it's really an Afro-Politanness.

• 5:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 5:08Bozoma Saint John?

  Is what I call it.

• 5:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 5:09Bozoma Saint John?

  Because you are required, you know, to know so much about the world. And because of colonization, you have people who speak Portuguese and French and

• 5:20Lewis Howes?

  A lot of French.

• 5:20Bozoma Saint John?

  English, obviously, a lot of French, a lot of French. And there's lots of Indian immigrants, lots of Lebanese immigrants, lots of Korean immigrants. So you end up, first of all, the cultures all mesh together.

• 5:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 5:32Bozoma Saint John?

  And then language. So you have people who speak like seven languages.

• 5:36Lewis Howes?

  Crazy.

• 5:36Bozoma Saint John?

  That have nothing to do with their native language, by the way.

• 5:38Lewis Howes?

  Right. How many do you speak?

• 5:40Bozoma Saint John?

  I speak three.

• 5:40Lewis Howes?

  Three languages.

• 5:41Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, two native and then one.

• 5:43Lewis Howes?

  Got it, got it.

• 5:44Bozoma Saint John?

  Obviously, English.

• 5:44Lewis Howes?

  Amazing, okay, so you're, you moved to Kenya and then you came back.

• 5:49Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, then we went back to Ghana when I was almost 10. And then we moved to Colorado Springs, Colorado, when I was almost 13. And that is where I feel like my formative years really took shape. So when people ask me where I'm from, I usually say I'm bicultural.

• 6:06Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 6:07Bozoma Saint John?

  That I'm Ghanaian, but I grew up in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

• 6:10Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. That's when you learned the most probably about yourself.

• 6:13Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, yes. Things started crystallizing.

• 6:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Bozoma Saint John?

  My character started getting sharpened.

• 6:18Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 6:19Bozoma Saint John?

  In Colorado Springs.

• 6:20Lewis Howes?

  But you're probably like, you know, it was mostly like just white people, I'm assuming, jealous. You're like just stood out, right?

• 6:24Bozoma Saint John?

  Mostly, dude, it was everyone. Literally everyone.

• 6:27Lewis Howes?

  Did you go to public school, private school?

• 6:29Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, I went to public school. Yeah, Liberty High School.

• 6:31Lewis Howes?

  What was that like?

• 6:32Bozoma Saint John?

  What was that like?

• 6:34Lewis Howes?

  And were you this kind of personality when you're?

• 6:36Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I've always been pretty loud.

• 6:39Lewis Howes?

  Hey.

• 6:39Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:40Lewis Howes?

  Use your voice.

• 6:40Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, yes. Pretty outgoing, always. Except that, I mean, when I came, I mean, it was really tough. I mean, I'm not gonna pretend like, you know, everything was roses. There were a lot of well-meaning and well-intentioned people. Not just the kids, the teachers, people at the grocery store.

• 6:57Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. But just uneducated?

• 6:59Bozoma Saint John?

  Not educated at all, you know, didn't have a world perspective, which was actually shocking to me, right? Because again, my feeling is like, okay, you're in Africa. You are expected to have a world perspective. There's all kinds of people running around. You're speaking all kinds of different languages. And then you come to the place where it's supposed to be like the better world, the better place, and people have never left. My classmates didn't have passports.

• 7:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, probably never left the state, right?

• 7:24Bozoma Saint John?

  No, didn't really have a good sense of the world outside of Colorado Springs. They didn't even have a sense of the world outside of Denver. And so they were very much in their own world. And that's why, like, I'm not angry about whatever that I went through, because they just didn't know any better. I want people to know better. I want people to have more exposure. I think, obviously, technology has helped us out a lot with that, because this was 1989, where it's like, what you were listening to was on the TV and on the radio, and you went to the mall. You know, there wasn't a lot of exposure.

• 7:55Lewis Howes?

  No cell phones, there was none of that.

• 7:56Bozoma Saint John?

  No, there's nothing to give you a broader view than whatever's being fed to you.

• 8:00Lewis Howes?

  Newspaper, magazine, TV.

• 8:01Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. All they saw were naked kids with like, you know, Sally Struthers and like distended bellies.

• 8:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, from Africa, yeah, exactly.

• 8:08Bozoma Saint John?

  From Africa, they didn't know that there were skyscrapers.

• 8:11Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:11Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what I mean? Or that people drove luxury vehicles. They had no clue. And so there was a lot of involuntary teaching that I had to do, making sure that like my classmates understood why I had a sense of pride, that I wasn't embarrassed. Because then, you know, you're 12, and so there's a lot of teasing going on, and people making fun of you and stuff.

• 8:32Lewis Howes?

  What were the big challenges you faced in high school then? Besides the ignorance or uneducated peers, but was there anything else underneath that?

• 8:39Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, there was a lot of racial tension.

• 8:40Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 8:41Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. I was also coming into my own and so I really, I was trying to form my own opinions on race and class and sexual orientation. It was also around the time when Matthew Shepard was beaten to death. In fact, that incident changed even my relationship with religion because my parents were, Colorado Springs is a hotbed for evangelical Christianity.

• 9:03Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 9:04Bozoma Saint John?

  So we went to a mega church, you know, one of those where it's like three services, each service is like seven thousand people.

• 9:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:08Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, that kind of thing.

• 9:09Lewis Howes?

  It's like Joel Osteen style.

• 9:11Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, yeah, Pastor Ted was our guy. He sat on the pulpit and preached a message of hate the day that, the weekend that Matthew Shepard was killed. It was interesting because even then, even though I didn't, I didn't really have a good sense of, I mean, I didn't know anybody who was gay or openly gay in my high school.

• 9:29Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 9:30Bozoma Saint John?

  No, I, you know, my, my parents-

• 9:31Lewis Howes?

  It's before it became kind of popular or-

• 9:33Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah, before, I think before it was, it was more open, right? And my parents definitely did not talk about that kind of thing in my house. But what I knew was what I was feeling as Pastor Ted stood on the pulpit and condemned this young person, person who was my age, who'd been beaten to death.

• 9:52Lewis Howes?

  He made him wrong.

• 9:53Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:54Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow.

• 9:54Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, he made him wrong.

• 9:55Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 9:56Bozoma Saint John?

  He made him the enemy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:57Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's not good.

• 9:58Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, dude, it was not good at all. But this is like crowd thing too, right? People were applauding and cheering and the crowd was, you know, and it's like seven thousand people who were screaming and think about it, he did that three times that day.

• 10:11Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 10:12Bozoma Saint John?

  And so when I got home, I mean, I was just shaken, you know, and I knew I didn't want to go back to the church.

• 10:17Lewis Howes?

  How old were you then?

• 10:17Bozoma Saint John?

  I was, I don't know, sixteen probably.

• 10:20Lewis Howes?

  Wow, yeah.

• 10:20Bozoma Saint John?

  And my dad was a deacon, my mom like ran the Sunday school.

• 10:24Lewis Howes?

  The whole thing.

• 10:24Bozoma Saint John?

  We sat in the front row behind his wife and his kids.

• 10:27Lewis Howes?

  You were embedded in the church?

• 10:28Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, it's like, you know, so the decision the next Sunday to be like, I don't feel that good.

• 10:32Lewis Howes?

  I feel sick.

• 10:33Bozoma Saint John?

  I just, I just wanted to say, and then the second week, mm, I don't know if I'm feeling, you know, it became a real problem with me and my parents.

• 10:41Lewis Howes?

  So how did you have the courage to kind of open up at sixteen of like, hey, I don't believe or I don't feel comfortable with this type of thinking, the way you guys have lived your entire life?

• 10:49Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I definitely could not have articulated it then, what it meant or what I was feeling. All I knew was that I hated the way that people- I didn't like the like feeling of blood vengeance. You know what I mean? In the church. And I knew it made me feel uncomfortable and scared. It was very similar to sometimes how I felt like even in the classroom. Where it's like if people don't feel like you're an other, how they can gang up on you. I knew that that feeling was not great. And I didn't want anything to do with it.

• 11:22Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 11:22Bozoma Saint John?

  So at that point, I was just like, I just want anything to do with it. I don't want to be in that space. And like I said, I mean, I was volunteering at Sunday's school. As part of the youth group.

• 11:30Lewis Howes?

  You were singing.

• 11:31Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I was here on the choir. I mean, I got a tambourine, you know, like I had the whole thing going.

• 11:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:37Bozoma Saint John?

  I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. And I stayed at home.

• 11:41Lewis Howes?

  Really? From then on, you never went back?

• 11:42Bozoma Saint John?

  From then on, I never went back. I never went back.

• 11:44Lewis Howes?

  What was that like with your parents or?

• 11:45Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, terrible.

• 11:46Lewis Howes?

  Convincing them or?

• 11:47Bozoma Saint John?

  Nope. You know, my dad saw us in embarrassment. My mom was more understanding, but you know, my dad, he just, he just, he, you know, he just felt like he was embarrassed. His oldest daughter.

• 11:58Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm. Should be leading the example, not?

• 12:00Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes. Setting the example, especially when you're African. You know what I mean? It's like you set the example for the rest of your siblings. And everything, whether it's sports or academics or boys, religion, you know, you have to be the best. That way they can follow your lead. And so if I'm staying home and being like, no, I'm not doing that. Then imagine what happens, right? You end up causing riots in your own house. Acts of defiance. But I just couldn't do it, man. I don't know. I can't really even articulate it now, but I knew that that was it. I just, I couldn't go back.

• 12:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow. And were you able to cool things off with your father or?

• 12:38Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, eventually we just found, I mean, I only had two years left to go.

• 12:41Lewis Howes?

  Right. So you're like, ah, I'm out of there.

• 12:42Bozoma Saint John?

  I was out of there.

• 12:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:43Bozoma Saint John?

  But yeah, I mean, I just sort of avoided the subject.

• 12:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:46Bozoma Saint John?

  Like all functioning families.

• 12:48Lewis Howes?

  Like great teenagers do, right?

• 12:49Bozoma Saint John?

  Correct. We just decided not to speak about it. Just like ignore it altogether.

• 12:53Lewis Howes?

  What would you say is one of the biggest challenges you went through then, growing up? Whether it be internally or through external issues or challenges from being in Africa or being in DC or being in Colorado Springs? Was there anything that you feel like kind of defined and shaped you?

• 13:07Bozoma Saint John?

  There's a couple of things. One, of course, now in retrospect, I can look back and say, wow, you know what? Like, I had to stand up tall, because I am tall, and I'm so different. And now it's almost like a blessing, because I'm clearly facing the same thing in Silicon Valley now, where it's like, oh, OK, you're one. You know, you look around, there's no one else who looks anything like you.

• 13:29Lewis Howes?

  No, no, you're one of a kind.

• 13:30Bozoma Saint John?

  And so I've already been through that, so it's not scary. I don't feel fear in that, right? Or being other. But it took me a long time to like, find self-love, just because like, when you're faced with not being the object of desire or beauty, or you're not anywhere near the epitome of what it should be, it takes a long time. I think as, you know, as a teenager, as a kid, as a young woman, coming into your own, takes a long time to then discover that, oh, yeah, no, no, I'm beautiful in my own way. You know, that like, being this tall and this dark and this, that, and that, you know? It's like, that's OK. I am OK. I don't have to be these other things in order to be accepted.

• 14:15Bozoma Saint John?

  That was tough. That was hard. It's hard being a teenager.

• 14:18Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 14:18Bozoma Saint John?

  And trying to like...

• 14:19Lewis Howes?

  It's the worst.

• 14:20Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, it's awful.

• 14:21Lewis Howes?

  The teenagers are the worst for me.

• 14:23Bozoma Saint John?

  I know, worst. Oh, my God, they're so miserable. I'm really excited when I meet young women who either are struggling with their own sort of worth and being and coming into, you know, their own, because you feel so awkward anyway. And if you're in any kind of situation in which you feel other, you're just looking for connections, looking for anything.

• 14:46Lewis Howes?

  To fit in.

• 14:47Bozoma Saint John?

  To fit in anything. And so even for me, like, I feel like those years helped also strengthen need for like, storytelling and communication. I feel like I really have been groomed for the career I've had because of that. I had to become the instant source of everything cool. I had to know it better than anyone.

• 15:07Lewis Howes?

  Because then you were like so accepted, so viable.

• 15:09Bozoma Saint John?

  Because then you're the cool kid. You know, then everybody wants to be your friend, right? If you know the latest fashion, you know the latest music, you know the, all the sports info. Dude, I, I was an encyclopedia.

• 15:20Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:20Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 15:21Lewis Howes?

  Before Google.

• 15:21Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh.

• 15:22Lewis Howes?

  You were Google.

• 15:23Bozoma Saint John?

  Let me tell you something, okay? I wish I'd been a Google, alright? Okay, I'd have been on that, like, do do do do do.

• 15:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:29Bozoma Saint John?

  Let me figure out what I need to know about whatever sports course. No, you had to actually do the work.

• 15:33Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:34Bozoma Saint John?

  I had to watch all the games. I had to listen to.

• 15:36Lewis Howes?

  Read the newspapers, whatever.

• 15:37Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, Magic FM, 24/7, read all teen beat, spend all my time at the mall. You had to get the information in any way possible so that at school, I could be the source of all the info. Be the coolest kid around.

• 15:51Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. What would you say is your greatest gift now?

• 15:55Bozoma Saint John?

  Probably my intuition. That's also been crafted over time.

• 15:59Lewis Howes?

  How did you cultivate that?

• 16:00Bozoma Saint John?

  Lots of failure. Lots of not trusting it.

• 16:04Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:05Bozoma Saint John?

  It's the feeling regardless of where you are. You know, it's not just about like work or whatever, it was about people. Like, meeting somebody and being like, that person ain't right.

• 16:12Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 16:13Bozoma Saint John?

  It doesn't matter who they are. Cause you know, this always happens, right? It's like somebody introduces you to somebody, oh, you know, they're super amazing because they've done blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're like bragging on this person and you meet them and you're like, ooh.

• 16:23Lewis Howes?

  Sums off.

• 16:24Bozoma Saint John?

  I don't think so. And knowing that that is actually okay, that you should listen to it and back up. Don't go forward with this person because something ain't right. I don't know what it is, but something ain't right. And so I've gotta listen to that. It also works for jobs. Every time I have ignored it, it has been bad.

• 16:42Lewis Howes?

  Miserable jobs, right?

• 16:43Bozoma Saint John?

  Miserable situations. Or like, just in general. I feel like just being able to trust it, and it comes in various ways. Whether it's like that feeling of an ease, or it's like that little voice, or just something. And it's different for everybody, but for me, I've tried to hone it so that now I react more quickly. And I don't question it any longer.

• 17:04Lewis Howes?

  Really? In every situation, even in like intimate relationships or?

• 17:08Bozoma Saint John?

  Every situation, everything. Yeah, it comes down to interviews, everything.

• 17:12Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 17:12Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 17:13Lewis Howes?

  I'm glad you had the intuition to come in here, didn't walk out on me right away.

• 17:17Bozoma Saint John?

  No, but if I, no, but truth be told, if I'd walked in here and felt like there was some

• 17:22Lewis Howes?

  Oh, I gotta

• 17:22Bozoma Saint John?

  weirdness, I'd just be like, hey, listen, this ain't, this ain't happening today. I appreciate you, keep doing what you're doing, but I gotta go.

• 17:29Lewis Howes?

  Wow, have you done that before?

• 17:30Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, I have, oh, yeah.

• 17:31Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 17:31Bozoma Saint John?

  No, I have hands, yes.

• 17:33Lewis Howes?

  For like press or interviews or whatever?

• 17:35Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, that's right, yeah, because you know what, you can tell, and I know it won't work out. It won't work out in my favor for sure, it might work out for them.

• 17:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:43Bozoma Saint John?

  And so why am I sacrificing myself? No, uh-uh, no. Before, like, I would feel bad, now I would need to like, try to explain. Now folks need an explanation, it might also be because I turned 40 and now I give like zero

• 17:55Lewis Howes?

  You're like, don't care, yeah, yeah.

• 17:55Bozoma Saint John?

  So, if I don't feel it, I don't feel like I need to excuse it to anybody.

• 18:00Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 18:00Bozoma Saint John?

  That is not for me, thank you, I'm off to do this.

• 18:03Lewis Howes?

  Right. Now, did you always know that you were gonna be executive at a big brand and kind of like shaping culture at these different brands?

• 18:12Bozoma Saint John?

  Nope, I thought I was gonna be a doctor.

• 18:14Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 18:15Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, an obstetrician, specifically.

• 18:17Lewis Howes?

  Tell me what that is, I'm ignorant.

• 18:18Bozoma Saint John?

  That's a person who births babies.

• 18:20Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow, really? I've never given a baby, so that's probably why I don't know that, yeah.

• 18:23Bozoma Saint John?

  I have, yeah.

• 18:23Lewis Howes?

  Okay, wow, crazy. That's what you wanted to do, what, in high school, college?

• 18:27Bozoma Saint John?

  That's what I wanted to do in high school, well, I mean, again, because of the influence of African parents, there were three careers I could go into, it was like

• 18:34Lewis Howes?

  Lawyer, doctor.

• 18:35Bozoma Saint John?

  Engineer.

• 18:36Lewis Howes?

  Engineer.

• 18:36Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, see, you know, do you have African parents, are you?

• 18:38Lewis Howes?

  No, no.

• 18:39Bozoma Saint John?

  No, you don't, okay, fantastic, well, that's fine, anyway.

• 18:41Lewis Howes?

  It's kind of like, Asian parents, African parents, it's like

• 18:44Bozoma Saint John?

  Why is it, why are those the careers, like, why is that?

• 18:46Lewis Howes?

  It's the safe, it's the like credible, it's the, they made it, yeah.

• 18:50Bozoma Saint John?

  I don't know, whatever, it's a badge of honor, I guess. And so I chose doctor, because I was good at sciences and math, and you know, again, because of where I was, I think I was given like some sort of extra praise, you know, because it was like, I was a lone black girl, oh, and I was super smart at like science and math. It was like, woo, my god, this person, it doesn't exist, you know, it's like, ah.

• 19:10Lewis Howes?

  Unicorn.

• 19:10Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, exactly, like, oh, my god, and so it felt like that's what I should be doing, and so that's where I just went.

• 19:17Lewis Howes?

  When did that shift?

• 19:18Bozoma Saint John?

  In college, I went to college pre-med, took a full course load in the sciences, I was a biology major, and then I took a class my freshman year called African American Studies. Because there was a guy in there that was real hot.

• 19:33Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:33Bozoma Saint John?

  I'm not gonna lie. Followed him to that class.

• 19:36Lewis Howes?

  Like, okay, cool.

• 19:37Bozoma Saint John?

  And then the professor was so amazing. This guy Ashraf Rushdie. Incredible professor. And it just opened up my mind. I mean, again, coming from Colorado Springs, there was, there was no African American anything being taught anywhere.

• 19:50Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 19:51Bozoma Saint John?

  And so I walk into this class and it was like, it wasn't just history. It was literature, it was poetry.

• 19:57Lewis Howes?

  Music.

• 19:58Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, it was like, it was just culture. It was mind blowing to me. I forgot the guy. I was like, what guy?

• 20:04Lewis Howes?

  You fell in love with something else, yeah, yeah.

• 20:05Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, a hundred percent. And then it was like the gateway drug.

• 20:09Lewis Howes?

  Catalyst.

• 20:10Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, the catalyst, because it just opened up to other things. There was an American Studies professor who I also really liked a lot, Kerici, who was also teaching things about culture, but American culture. So now it's like, not just African American culture. How did African American culture impact American culture? How did Asian culture impact American culture? How did immigrants? There was just, it was such a confounding thing to me to think about American culture and how that would all come together based on all these inputs and over time. And also at the time, Tupac had been killed.

• 20:42Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 20:43Bozoma Saint John?

  He was my favorite artist.

• 20:44Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:45Bozoma Saint John?

  I knew everything. I mean, come on. Hey, ambitious writer, you know what I mean? We could go, we could go toe to toe, okay? You don't want to battle me today, okay?

• 20:52Lewis Howes?

  I'm not even gonna try, don't worry.

• 20:54Bozoma Saint John?

  Don't even do it.

• 20:54Lewis Howes?

  You know much more about me than.

• 20:55Bozoma Saint John?

  Don't even do it, okay?

• 20:56Lewis Howes?

  Culture, music, everything.

• 20:59Lewis Howes?

  I can African dance, though. I've been doing some African dance.

• 21:02Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what? Don't make me challenge you.

• 21:03Lewis Howes?

  It's almost like the chicken dance, right?

• 21:04Bozoma Saint John?

  I swear to you, I, listen.

• 21:06Lewis Howes?

  I've got video of me doing it.

• 21:07Bozoma Saint John?

  We will push this table away and get, no, in fact, we'll get on the table, okay? And battle it out. But anyway, so I heard that there was a class being taught at USC on Tupac, basically using his lyrics as like poetry, you know? Like his lyrics as a sign of the times.

• 21:24Lewis Howes?

  And you were going to USC this whole time?

• 21:25Bozoma Saint John?

  No, I was going to Wesleyan University. I was in Connecticut.

• 21:28Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 21:29Bozoma Saint John?

  Way on the other side of the country.

• 21:30Lewis Howes?

  And you heard about a class in USC?

• 21:32Bozoma Saint John?

  Being taught at USC on Tupac. You know, it was in the moment, like he had just been killed. I was grieving and everything.

• 21:39Lewis Howes?

  I have to take this.

• 21:39Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, and so I, I tried to see if I could, like, I went to the dean, tried to see if I could do like a, I don't know, some sort of transfer class or something? Like, could I like listen in and like get credits?

• 21:50Lewis Howes?

  Some pre-online courses, yeah.

• 21:52Bozoma Saint John?

  Pre, you know what? Will you tell these youngins how good they have it? You know what I'm saying? Pre-online classes, man. So they said no. Then I was like, ooh, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna have Keritchi, who's my American Studies professor, teach the class.

• 22:07Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 22:08Bozoma Saint John?

  So I made a proposal, I took it to him, he said no. And then he said, here's what we do. He was like, if you create, he was like, you've already created the syllabus, you've already created it. He was like, if you teach it,

• 22:20Lewis Howes?

  Shut up.

• 22:21Bozoma Saint John?

  I will support you and you can get credit as well as get other students to get credit. And I was like.

• 22:27Lewis Howes?

  You taught the class?

• 22:28Bozoma Saint John?

  For three semesters.

• 22:29Lewis Howes?

  Shut up.

• 22:30Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 22:30Lewis Howes?

  You taught?

• 22:31Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, with the waiting list, man, I was popping.

• 22:33Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 22:34Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 22:34Lewis Howes?

  As what, junior, senior, or what?

• 22:35Bozoma Saint John?

  I was a, so I taught it both semesters of junior year and the first semester of my.

• 22:40Lewis Howes?

  They let a student teach?

• 22:42Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 22:42Lewis Howes?

  Class?

• 22:42Bozoma Saint John?

  Teach a class, yeah, yeah, yeah. I petitioned and it was incredible. I think everybody knew I was serious because I was so committed and I really had done my work and my research.

• 22:51Lewis Howes?

  Because you probably talked to the teacher and you see and you're like, what's the outline?

• 22:55Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, oh my God, I did everything. I wrote letters, I corresponded with the students who took the class.

• 22:59Lewis Howes?

  Collect calls, pagers, everything, you know, you're beeping people.

• 23:02Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, a 411, okay, like, I would send the codes, all of it. I mean, you know, the hallway phone would ring and I'd run to it and be like, hello? It's supposed, you know, it's about Tupac class. It was so nuts. I think at first, probably the students thought like this would be fun and easy because it's a class on hip hop, which there weren't, there were zero classes like that. Plus, it's like a fellow student who's teaching it.

• 23:25Lewis Howes?

  Oh, it's gonna be a piece of cake.

• 23:26Bozoma Saint John?

  And it was a night, it was gonna be a good time. But no, we were being very serious about this and thoughtful. And I would say that it took maybe all of like two weeks before we were in. I mean, and we had some of the most dynamic conversations.

• 23:38Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 23:38Bozoma Saint John?

  It became more than just about the lyrics. It became the dialogue around what was happening in the country. You know, what would cause this very culturally aware, politically savvy young man to then speak primarily about a culture? Because he, he's actually putting himself in a situation in which he actually didn't come from. You know, I think people forget that. Think like, oh, okay, he was just a thug on the corner selling drugs. No, that's not Tupac, his parents were Black Panthers. And so to think that, okay, he had a voice, he was choosing to be the voice for a group of people that were unheard, you know, became what I thought was worthy of academic discourse. So.

• 24:20Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 24:20Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, so that's why I've been a long time.

• 24:22Lewis Howes?

  Incredible.

• 24:24Lewis Howes?

  The things you probably learned about yourself from being a student to now a teacher to.

• 24:27Bozoma Saint John?

  It was so great. It really was so great. A great, great time.

• 24:31Lewis Howes?

  And so you decided after that, okay, no longer going into being a doctor, like, I'm going into what?

• 24:37Bozoma Saint John?

  I don't know. I didn't have a name for it. I did graduate as pre-med. I applied to med schools, got in. I was on my way, but I'd also taken African-American Studies as a major and English. So I was carrying three majors. Now I only claim African-American Studies and English. When people ask me like, what I graduated because I'm just like, the biology, like seriously, I'm not even interested.

• 25:00Lewis Howes?

  I don't even talk about school because I was barely even went to class, you know? I just went to get good enough grades to play football.

• 25:06Bozoma Saint John?

  See, okay.

• 25:06Lewis Howes?

  And it took me seven, almost seven and a half years to graduate.

• 25:09Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, right.

• 25:10Lewis Howes?

  And I went to like three different schools, transferred a bunch.

• 25:13Bozoma Saint John?

  Wow.

• 25:14Lewis Howes?

  And have a sports marketing degree or a sports management. I can't remember what it's called, but yeah. But I don't even use what I had learned from there. It's like, you know.

• 25:22Bozoma Saint John?

  But isn't that the truth though? I don't, I don't feel like, you know, unless you're in some sort of like technical field.

• 25:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:27Bozoma Saint John?

  I feel like college is a time, just like we're talking about, to discover who you are, what you want to do, who you want to be. You know, really sharpen your analytical and cultural thought.

• 25:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:38Bozoma Saint John?

  And apply that.

• 25:39Lewis Howes?

  For me, it was learning like just social skills, just understanding human beings and understanding how to really enroll people in an idea, which is what it sounds like you did. We were like, I need to roll my professor. I need to enroll the school. I need to enroll this other school to give me the information. I need to enroll students in this vision that you had.

• 25:56Bozoma Saint John?

  Right, right.

• 25:57Lewis Howes?

  And you enrolled people. You learned what made people tick, what made people do, say yes, say no. And you made it happen, which is the ultimate skill. Enrollment, getting people connected to a bigger vision.

• 26:09Bozoma Saint John?

  And engaging them in a thought, you know? And it's so funny because when I was graduating, I mean, my parents were, you know, super proud because I graduated, like I said, pre-med. I was on my way to me. Yeah, like everything was fine. I partied really hard.

• 26:24Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 26:25Bozoma Saint John?

  And so I had that going for me, like on my own notches on the belt type of situation, you know, where I felt really good. So I came out of college feeling hella confident.

• 26:33Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. I own this world.

• 26:35Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, yeah. I was like socially, I got this. Academically, I got this. You can't tell me nothing. And so I was like, well, you know what? I'm going to move to New York City because I can, because why not? And my parents like, okay, you could do that for a year and then you're going to school.

• 26:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:51Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, and so I was like, all right, great. By the way, thank God it wasn't today. Like, I would have definitely talked myself out of that. I just didn't know that anything bad could happen to me.

• 27:01Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, yeah.

• 27:03Bozoma Saint John?

  Cause I just thought I was the greatest, the greatest that ever happened. I was super smart, plus I was like socially savvy. What could possibly go wrong?

• 27:10Lewis Howes?

  What happened?

• 27:11Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh dude, oh my God. So.

• 27:13Lewis Howes?

  You moved there on your own?

• 27:14Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I moved there on my own.

• 27:15Lewis Howes?

  Where did you move to? Astoria, Brooklyn, Queens?

• 27:17Bozoma Saint John?

  I moved to Harlem.

• 27:18Lewis Howes?

  Okay, yeah.

• 27:19Bozoma Saint John?

  Because I had one friend, she graduated the year before me and she was going to Columbia Film School.

• 27:23Lewis Howes?

  Wow, nice.

• 27:24Bozoma Saint John?

  And so she had a dorm, yeah, she had a dorm room or like a dorm apartment.

• 27:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:28Bozoma Saint John?

  That she shared with somebody else. And so she said I could sleep on her couch until I found a job. I thought I was gonna walk into New York City and get a job right away. What? Look at me. Like, of course I'm gonna win. I don't even understand why somebody wouldn't give me a job.

• 27:40Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 27:40Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, three and a half months later, I'm still like looking for work on the couch and she's getting annoyed. The roommate definitely hates me.

• 27:48Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 27:49Bozoma Saint John?

  I have no money. My dad is definitely not sending me any kind of checks. I've made friends with the little bodega on the corner and this restaurant called El Fardita, which is on the corner of 125th. Yes. Oh my God, this little like Dominican place.

• 28:01Lewis Howes?

  Salsa dancing.

• 28:02Bozoma Saint John?

  Dude.

• 28:03Lewis Howes?

  I've been there.

• 28:03Bozoma Saint John?

  What?

• 28:04Lewis Howes?

  I salsa danced there.

• 28:05Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what? I can't even take it. I'm about to get up and leave. What are you talking about?

• 28:09Lewis Howes?

  I lived in New York City for a year and a half and I used to salsa dance in all the spots.

• 28:12Bozoma Saint John?

  With the green, like awning, they had the green on the.

• 28:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah.

• 28:17Bozoma Saint John?

  Yo, that was my spot.

• 28:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 28:18Bozoma Saint John?

  I loved, everybody in there were homies, okay? Like, they fed me when I couldn't pay for it.

• 28:23Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 28:24Bozoma Saint John?

  You get what I'm saying?

• 28:24Lewis Howes?

  That's good. I didn't go there that much, but I used to know all the spots where they had salsa dancing, so, yeah.

• 28:29Bozoma Saint John?

  But this is why I just, I love when we think about like culture and connections with people and stuff like that. It didn't matter where I came from or that I'd gone to this super snobby school and thought I was like the biggest, illest thing. You make connections with people and they, they saved my life. They fed me.

• 28:48Lewis Howes?

  That's amazing.

• 28:49Bozoma Saint John?

  And actually, cause I was in Fardita. When the wonderful waitress, who had become like an auntie to me, was like, you need a job. And I'm like, I know, I'm trying to get a job. But I was like applying for these like highfalutin jobs that didn't make any sense. Now I look back on it like I laugh at myself.

• 29:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you needed like an entry level.

• 29:09Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I need like an entry level job. And she had like a niece or something who signed up with a temp agency. And so she was like, oh, you know, you sign up and basically they'll, you know, you call them every night and they'll tell you where you need to go in the morning, right? So it's like it's transient work, basically. But I was like, yeah, whatever, anything.

• 29:27Lewis Howes?

  Pay me fifty, a hundred bucks a day.

• 29:28Bozoma Saint John?

  It doesn't matter. I was making zero money, so anything would have been good. So I walked in there, they laughed at me because I had like, you know, a great degree and like all these experiences. You know, speak language. They were just like.

• 29:40Lewis Howes?

  Professor.

• 29:41Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, they were like, what are you doing here? But they sent me out on jobs. I was a receptionist at a dog washing salon on the Upper East Side. I filed like National Geographics at this one place for like two months, which was awful. I nearly lost my mind in that one. God, I did so many little things. Oh, I was a, I was a, oh, what do they call them? When, um, you know, you're like serving at a party, you're wearing like the tux.

• 30:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, like a.

• 30:07Bozoma Saint John?

  Catering, catering, yes. So I did that a few times, which by the way, I mean, all of these experiences now.

• 30:13Lewis Howes?

  It's like what every model does.

• 30:14Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, right, right. Exactly. You know, I was in the club though.

• 30:19Bozoma Saint John?

  Out in those streets. Get to know people and God, all the clubs in New York then, which were just so fun and just crazy. I also made so many good friends at that time because all of like the assistants or people who were like entry level at their own places would like get you in to the party. So like my good friend, Moxa Fitzgibbons, who's now very senior at Complex magazine. I met him that way. You know, where like I would go to their magazine release parties because they have one every month. And, you know, pass our doors are free. You know what I mean?

• 30:51Lewis Howes?

  Right, yeah.

• 30:51Bozoma Saint John?

  Open bar.

• 30:52Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:52Bozoma Saint John?

  So I go eat there, right? It was great. That's just hustling, just hustling to make it. And then one day I got the divine intervention, the call that it was like, okay, Spike Lee had fired his assistant and they needed me to go cover phones the next day. So it was.

• 31:09Lewis Howes?

  You were like, oh, this is my jam.

• 31:10Bozoma Saint John?

  I was like.

• 31:11Lewis Howes?

  Something like this.

• 31:11Bozoma Saint John?

  I'm like, yeah. Me, yeah, this is made for me. You know, so I go in there, I'm wearing like the only gray suit I own. I've pulled my hair back into like a severe bun. I'm wearing these little tiny pearls because I want it to look professional. And I walk in there and he's like, they sent me Miss America. That's literally what he said to me. Like, I was like, like all shriveled out, you know, like, you know, I was like, oh, my God, I'm getting fired before I answer the first phone. And he was like, who are you? And I was like, oh, I'm Bozeman St. John. You know, I was like, it's an honor to meet you, that I just want to help, you know, like, where do you want me? He's just like, just sit down, okay, and answer the phone. Because here I thought I was going to be doing some big stuff, right? But that turned into a month of answering the phones. I was getting coffee.

• 31:56Lewis Howes?

  Come back the next day.

• 31:56Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I got the dry cleaning, anything, lunch for anybody in the office, everything, whatever needs to be done. I mean, I was fixing the copy machine, anything that needed to be done, I was doing. Meanwhile, my dad is like calling me constantly and screaming, right? You have an Ivy League degree and you're getting coffee. You know, he's so pissed. And then, again, moment of divine intervention, Spike had just finished writing Bamboozled, one of his films that to me is is one of the greatest.

• 32:26Lewis Howes?

  I remember this.

• 32:27Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, pieces of like, you know, just what racial conflict is like in America, right? And what it means and all that, very, very deep film. He finished writing it and he he threw it down on the desk and he was like, take a look at this. I didn't know any better. I thought he meant like mark it up because, yeah, I was, you know, I was an English major. I mean, I was like, oh, let me just, let me grab my red pen.

• 32:46Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 32:46Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what I mean? And I marked this thing up. I marked it up. Now, like, I literally could die sitting here and being like.

• 32:52Lewis Howes?

  There you go, boss, like.

• 32:53Bozoma Saint John?

  Right?

• 32:54Lewis Howes?

  This is a month in, two months, sir.

• 32:55Bozoma Saint John?

  Like, yes, like six weeks in.

• 32:57Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 32:57Bozoma Saint John?

  Like, I've been getting the coffee and the dry cleaning.

• 33:00Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 33:01Bozoma Saint John?

  Who do you think you are? You just walk in, now you're going to be marking up Spike Lee's script? Like, that's what you're going to do? But like, yeah, he came the next day, he's like, what'd you think of it? And I was like, oh, yeah, I made I made some notes. And he was like.

• 33:11Lewis Howes?

  Notes?

• 33:11Bozoma Saint John?

  You made notes on my script?

• 33:14Bozoma Saint John?

  And I was like, yeah, yeah. And so he like, he just shook his head and I remember like, literally everyone snickering, you know, around and I was like, oh my god, now I'm really gonna get fired, you know? And he goes into his office, like, an hour later, he walks back and he's just like, what do you do again? And that was it, that was it. I had a full-time job.

• 33:33Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 33:33Bozoma Saint John?

  I got promoted. Yep, I had a little desk. Then I became like the assistant account executive. I didn't even know what the hell that was, but I told my dad, I have benefits, you know? So.

• 33:43Lewis Howes?

  You're not a temp anymore, yeah.

• 33:45Bozoma Saint John?

  I was not a temp anymore. So I just continued to do anything he said. I helped out at the office and he had started this advertising agency called Spike DDB, which was on Madison Avenue, in connection with DDB Worldwide. The agency that Mad Men was based off of. So, you know, it was a big deal, New York City, you know, feeling real important.

• 34:04Lewis Howes?

  Now you're getting thirty-five grand a year and you're feeling like...

• 34:07Bozoma Saint John?

  What, thirty-five grand? That's, that was, no. It was like twenty-three. Twenty-three thousand dollars a year, yeah. Twenty-three thousand dollars a year.

• 34:13Lewis Howes?

  I remember my sister, when she worked in New York City for a couple of years, I think it was around like twenty-three, twenty-six grand.

• 34:17Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:18Lewis Howes?

  Full-time, eighty hours a week type of...

• 34:20Bozoma Saint John?

  Full-time.

• 34:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:21Bozoma Saint John?

  All your good years.

• 34:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly. Wow, so how long were you with Spike?

• 34:24Bozoma Saint John?

  Four years.

• 34:25Lewis Howes?

  Four years.

• 34:25Bozoma Saint John?

  I was there four years. And it was such a great four years.

• 34:28Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 34:29Bozoma Saint John?

  We worked on so many ads, because he was creating his ad agency and trying to, again, change the narrative of what's happening in advertising. So, remember he did those Nike ads?

• 34:38Lewis Howes?

  He was famous. I mean, it's one of the greatest campaigns of all time.

• 34:41Bozoma Saint John?

  Of all time? So he had turned that into his own pursuit, right? Where we did, obviously, spots with New York Knicks, as you can imagine, and Jaguar Cars and State Farm, and we did the Janet Jackson Velvet Rope Tour. You know, it was like, all of these amazing things, and I had my hand in it, all of it.

• 34:57Lewis Howes?

  He threw you in it and said, I need you to have creative ideas, you wanna work on these campaigns.

• 35:01Bozoma Saint John?

  I was writing the briefs, writing the pitches, you know, like, just, again, wherever I could help, I was doing. And then, the agent was trying to win the business for Pepsi. And Pepsi was going through a tough time and trying to find, like, the next talent. You know, because at the time, it was like, okay, you're gonna sign a big artist and they're gonna be the face of your campaign. And like I said, I've been out in these streets, partying a lot.

• 35:22Lewis Howes?

  Hustling. So you're seeing the upcoming talent. You're like, oh, this person, it's always popping.

• 35:26Bozoma Saint John?

  We were out there. Beyonce had just left Destiny's Child, or she was thinking about it. And she'd also just done this film called The Hip-Hopera, Carmen, The Hip-Hopera, on MTV. It was a TV film. Because she was trying to be an actress, right? She was trying to leave the... And, you know, it's like, people weren't necessarily giving her... I mean, now, it's like, we sit back and we're like, "Oh, yeah, King B." Like, nobody can doubt her, you know? But at the time, it's like, think about it. It's like, how many successful single...

• 35:51Lewis Howes?

  People break off, yeah.

• 35:51Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, had come out of groups like that. People were not giving her the credit she deserved. But I saw the hip-hop opera, which I thought was brilliant. I think it was, like, critically panned. But I thought it was great, you know? Because, like, think about, like, opera being interpreted through hip-hop to, like, a young audience. Holy crap, like, that's...

• 36:12Lewis Howes?

  It's kind of like Hamilton before its time. He knows how to, like, yeah, yeah.

• 36:14Bozoma Saint John?

  A hundred percent, yes. I mean, it was just so brilliant. And so, we were in one of those creative sessions...

• 36:21Lewis Howes?

  With Beyoncé?

• 36:22Bozoma Saint John?

  No, not with Beyoncé, just us. Like, Spike and the rest of the team were talking about all these artists. And Pepsi did have her, like, on the shortlist of people they were interested in. But then, in talking about it and going through, it was like, "Hey, like, I just watched this hip-hop right here." You know what I mean? And, like, I thought Beyoncé killed it, you know? Because she was Carmen. And so, Spike watched it, and he was like, "She should be Carmen in this spot." Like, that's what we should do. And he's going to direct it. We sold the campaign to Pepsi.

• 36:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 36:48Bozoma Saint John?

  And that was it. I was in like Flint, you know what I mean? That was it, that was it. The rest is history.

• 36:54Lewis Howes?

  And so, then you went over to Pepsi after that, or you still was Spike?

• 36:56Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I did. I... Well, I stayed with Spike...

• 36:58Lewis Howes?

  They stole you, or what?

• 36:59Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I stayed with Spike for a while. But then, you know, like, my mind started playing tricks on me. Even then, I started to think, if I'm just relying on this pop culture stuff, people won't think I'm smart. So... And I was already feeling it. People weren't giving me my credit for, like, the small connections you make that turn into magic.

• 37:17Lewis Howes?

  These ideas, that, yeah, creativity, yeah.

• 37:19Bozoma Saint John?

  Like, it really takes talent and taste.

• 37:22Lewis Howes?

  It's not just like, "Oh, I guessed and it worked out," yeah.

• 37:24Bozoma Saint John?

  No, this is friggin' mathematics.

• 37:26Lewis Howes?

  It was everything, yeah.

• 37:27Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, it's all of those things. It's really smart. It's not luck. But I started to feel that, that, like, I wasn't being taken seriously. And, like I said, you know, I'd been the smart kid in school, always. I was like, "Oh, so now what? Like, I'm not smart because I'm doing this?" So, I quit. And this is one of those moments where I should have listened to my intuition. Cause I tried, I went to this agency where I was supposed to work on smoking cessation. So, you know, like the patch.

• 37:54Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 37:55Bozoma Saint John?

  Nicorette and all of those, like the gums and things. Cause it was pharmaceutical and that was really hard advertising. Only the smartest people went into that kind of advertising. Cause you know, you had to know the laws and you had to know all the things in order to create a message that could penetrate and still be legally viable. And so I went to do that. It was a disaster.

• 38:14Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 38:15Bozoma Saint John?

  Disaster. Three months in, I was done. It was finished. And so then, yeah, I called my friends at Pepsi for advice, like, you know, cause I'd made some friends along the way.

• 38:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 38:25Bozoma Saint John?

  I just wanted like advice on like what else to do. I wasn't actually thinking about Pepsi at all. Cause my opinion of them were that they were all cut from the same cloth. They were all MBAs who went to the top 10 schools, came in as an intern class together, were promoted together. It was a club.

• 38:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:41Bozoma Saint John?

  And I couldn't, I wasn't part of the club. I wasn't in. And one of the guys I had been really close to was like, would you consider working here? We think you'd be really, really great. We could use your perspective. And I was like, oh, hell no. I was like, this is, this is, look like I, I can't, I can't do that.

• 38:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:57Bozoma Saint John?

  And so I went in for like a series of interviews.

• 38:59Lewis Howes?

  The old white boys' club or whatever.

• 39:00Bozoma Saint John?

  A hundred percent.

• 39:01Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 39:01Bozoma Saint John?

  They were all wearing like khakis and the blue button down shirts. Oh, my God. I looked, I had a nose ring at the time.

• 39:07Lewis Howes?

  Nice.

• 39:08Bozoma Saint John?

  It was not, I was not one of the peoples, you know? But this again goes back to like my childhood. I've never been.

• 39:15Lewis Howes?

  So you fit right in.

• 39:16Bozoma Saint John?

  So I got there and the work was interesting. And so I was like, well, you know what? I've never been afraid before, so I'll give this a shot.

• 39:23Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What was the biggest lesson about working with Pepsi for you?

• 39:26Bozoma Saint John?

  I think it was the validation of knowing that pop culture can drive business. You know, that was the first time that I knew it for sure.

• 39:33Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 39:34Bozoma Saint John?

  This is not a game.

• 39:35Lewis Howes?

  You know what's interesting is it seems like it drives business, but does it drive politics after what happened?

• 39:40Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, of course it does. So I think this is an even bigger lesson now, today.

• 39:45Lewis Howes?

  Well, with all the, uh, the artists and celebrities endorsing one party that didn't win.

• 39:51Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 39:51Lewis Howes?

  Does it work?

• 39:52Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, it does work because it's about how to focus the message. I think we forget that it's not actually about the artists, about the audience. Any brand. Or political organization that puts their money on the artist and forgets the audience is going to lose.

• 40:08Lewis Howes?

  Ah, so don't put it on the artist.

• 40:09Bozoma Saint John?

  Don't put it on the artist. The artist is a tool. Every other pop culture avenue, you have a set of tools and you're going to use all of them to get to the audience. But as soon as you forget the audience, you're dead.

• 40:22Lewis Howes?

  So how do we remember the audience and deliver the message through an artist or an influencer or something like that?

• 40:27Bozoma Saint John?

  Because it always starts with them. It always starts with the audience. It's like, what do they want? What are they feeling? How are they behaving? You have to fill that void. And then you can fill that void by using an asset that they will listen to. Insert artist or insert platform or league or whatever.

• 40:44Lewis Howes?

  So did Hillary not have the right artists then, or?

• 40:46Bozoma Saint John?

  No, no, no. She, she didn't pay attention to the audience.

• 40:48Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 40:49Bozoma Saint John?

  So, no, because she had all the right artists.

• 40:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:51Bozoma Saint John?

  Everybody.

• 40:51Lewis Howes?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 40:52Bozoma Saint John?

  Hell, she had me.

• 40:53Lewis Howes?

  She had all the right artists, yeah, right?

• 40:54Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 40:54Lewis Howes?

  She had, you're getting all the artists for a year.

• 40:56Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 40:56Lewis Howes?

  She had the artists, but she forgot about the audience.

• 40:58Bozoma Saint John?

  But I mean, she readily admits that as well.

• 41:00Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 41:01Bozoma Saint John?

  You know? Whereas Trump was firmly focused on the audience.

• 41:04Lewis Howes?

  Audience. And he had a clear message for the audience.

• 41:07Bozoma Saint John?

  Absolutely. He knew the gap and he talked to it.

• 41:09Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 41:11Bozoma Saint John?

  Win. I mean.

• 41:13Lewis Howes?

  That's it.

• 41:13Bozoma Saint John?

  That's it, you know? And I know it's like, now it sounds easy or making it very simple, and it's hard to do that.

• 41:21Lewis Howes?

  And he executed with his conviction.

• 41:23Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, man.

• 41:23Lewis Howes?

  Day after day.

• 41:24Bozoma Saint John?

  Day after day.

• 41:25Lewis Howes?

  And stood by his vision.

• 41:26Bozoma Saint John?

  All of it. All of it. He did use also pop culture to drive the message.

• 41:30Lewis Howes?

  Well, some.

• 41:31Bozoma Saint John?

  So it's not as if he didn't.

• 41:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:32Bozoma Saint John?

  But he had the message for the gap that the audience was looking for. You know, and even though, and that's the thing, is that even though we can look at it and say, okay, well, that's a very small audience, but how powerful when you engage an audience that is movable. You know what I mean? Even if they're tiny. Like, I think that's, again, what we forget. We're like, oh, okay, well, there's this little niche, they're not powerful. No, they're very powerful if you engage them. If you strike their passion or their emotion, they will move. They'll do anything you say without question. They'll forgive you for anything.

• 42:05Lewis Howes?

  Everything.

• 42:05Bozoma Saint John?

  Anything.

• 42:06Lewis Howes?

  Kill people.

• 42:07Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 42:08Lewis Howes?

  Forgive you.

• 42:08Bozoma Saint John?

  Whatever, whatever. You know? And that, that's the power.

• 42:11Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 42:12Bozoma Saint John?

  Of great marketing, is that you will actually be forgiven. The wrongs will be overlooked because people feel like you've connected in some way.

• 42:21Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 42:21Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 42:22Lewis Howes?

  What is the key to building a great brand, in your opinion? And really making an impact on the audience you're serving?

• 42:29Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:29Lewis Howes?

  And have it just like grow exponentially and just like, what are all those elements that you've seen? I mean, it seems like you're the top. You've been in so many different brands, part of so many campaigns, so many different sectors, seen all the biggest celebrities build their brand.

• 42:45Bozoma Saint John?

  Well, in addition to the audience, I think you also have to start with the brand truth. Really can't make it up. You can't go get somebody else's truth and then pretend it's yours.

• 42:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:54Bozoma Saint John?

  So it has to start with some brand truth.

• 42:56Lewis Howes?

  So how does someone create that? Is that like a mission statement, you mean?

• 43:00Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, it's like a mission statement.

• 43:01Lewis Howes?

  This is what we stand for.

• 43:02Bozoma Saint John?

  It's also just like understanding the brand itself. You know, what role does it play in the world? Because when a brand launches, it has no brand presence. But then it becomes something to people. And I think part of the challenge is actually listening to what it has become instead of wishing for what you want it to be.

• 43:18Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, because the audience may take it somewhere on its own.

• 43:20Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 43:20Lewis Howes?

  Customers, the clients.

• 43:21Bozoma Saint John?

  Correct. They have already created something. So then you've got to actually listen to that thing. You may not like it, but you've got to listen to it and then figure out how to create messaging so that you warm them to maybe evolve the conversation. But first, you've got to embrace it. Go ahead and give it a big bear hug.

• 43:37Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 43:38Bozoma Saint John?

  Okay, this is what the audience believes this brand is about. And then work through that. So at Pepsi, it was like, okay, Dew was...

• 43:47Lewis Howes?

  Which Pepsi owns?

• 43:48Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 43:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:49Bozoma Saint John?

  Is the brand for the crazy white boy.

• 43:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:51Bozoma Saint John?

  The one who jumping off roofs.

• 43:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:53Bozoma Saint John?

  Flying off mountains. He's doing all kind of, but he's got insurance. He's doing all kind of crazy shit.

• 43:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:58Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what I mean?

• 43:59Lewis Howes?

  BMX or the skateboarder.

• 44:00Bozoma Saint John?

  All of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, interestingly enough, there was a time, actually right when I started, when there was an urban myth that was released that yellow dye number five, which is the key dye ingredient of Mountain Dew, would shrink your package if you drank it.

• 44:14Lewis Howes?

  Yes, I remember this.

• 44:15Bozoma Saint John?

  I mean, one of the best like counter marketing... Tactics of all time.

• 44:20Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 44:20Bozoma Saint John?

  Like, if it's not already a case study, it should be.

• 44:23Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 44:23Bozoma Saint John?

  Like, it's brilliant.

• 44:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:25Bozoma Saint John?

  Almost killed the business.

• 44:26Lewis Howes?

  I can imagine, because everyone's like, oh, no guys want to drink this.

• 44:29Bozoma Saint John?

  I'm not gonna drink this, you know?

• 44:30Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna go get Sprite.

• 44:31Bozoma Saint John?

  But the thing is that, yeah, but the thing is that the brand truth was not just about like the crazy white boy, but that like this beverage would give you a boost of testosterone. If you were that guy who was walking around.

• 44:44Lewis Howes?

  They believed it.

• 44:46Bozoma Saint John?

  They believed it. Just gotta lean into that belief. You may not like it, but you gotta lean in there. And then, the solution was that looking at what other audiences also believe that kind of thing? And what are their expressions of it? So for black men, what did that mean? Maybe they weren't jumping off the side of the mountain, but what were they doing to express that extra testosterone?

• 45:07Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:07Bozoma Saint John?

  And then go to that thing, right? And make that, make do part of that message.

• 45:11Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 45:11Bozoma Saint John?

  It's not the same for Pepsi. You couldn't, you couldn't take Pepsi there. Pepsi does not belong, Pepsi belongs with Britney Spears, okay?

• 45:16Lewis Howes?

  Yep, yep.

• 45:17Bozoma Saint John?

  And all the other pop.

• 45:18Lewis Howes?

  Shari A. Twain.

• 45:18Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, all of that, you know what I mean? Pepsi's having a good time.

• 45:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:22Bozoma Saint John?

  No one, any kind of danger.

• 45:23Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 45:24Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what I mean? Drinking maybe champagne.

• 45:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:26Bozoma Saint John?

  Nah, drinking Hennessy.

• 45:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 45:30Bozoma Saint John?

  We all know that person. So, again, I think that regardless of the brand that I've worked on, it's about accepting the brand truth and then leaning towards that thing.

• 45:40Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 45:40Bozoma Saint John?

  And cultivating some goodness out of it. Because there is good in all of the brand truths. You know, you just have to uncover it and then move your audience to accept whatever evolution you're trying to get to.

• 45:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:54Bozoma Saint John?

  Right? Because they gotta trust you first.

• 45:55Lewis Howes?

  Right. And so you were at Pepsi for a few years and then was it Beats after that, or was it?

• 45:59Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I went from Pepsi to Beats.

• 46:01Lewis Howes?

  Really? How did that relationship work with Jimmy and Dre and?

• 46:05Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 46:05Lewis Howes?

  How did they either find you, or you find them, or whatever?

• 46:08Bozoma Saint John?

  They found me. So I was going through the toughest personal experience.

• 46:14Lewis Howes?

  Which was what?

• 46:15Bozoma Saint John?

  My husband had been diagnosed with cancer. Six months, or he'd been diagnosed with cancer in May of 2013. It'd also come right after like, at that time anyway, my greatest career achievement, which had been working with Beyonce on the Super Bowl halftime show in New Orleans.

• 46:28Lewis Howes?

  Legendary.

• 46:29Bozoma Saint John?

  It was just, I mean. There are stories about that. That'll be the next time I come. A friend of mine was a dancer in that show. Really? Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. It was just... Because I think people forget that she sang at President Obama's inauguration. And remember that she was like, almost beaten down because she used a backing track for the wind? You know, and people were saying that she couldn't sing? That's why she did it? Uh huh. Who says that? Like, are you out of your mind? Have you... What? All the receipts this woman has? And like, she used a backing track? And now she's gonna be panned? Are you out of your... And that was like, a week before the Super Bowl. He had to get through all of that. Plus, the added pressure was that because of the ban on Janet Jackson, there'd been no black woman on the stage for 10 years.

• 47:14Bozoma Saint John?

  Beyonce was that one. She was like, the Holy Grail. The pressure. It was like, the pressure of the whole moment. The inauguration, which is supposed to be an amazing, beautiful thing. People are coming at you because they're like, you can't sing. What? Crazy. And then, you're literally sitting on the burden of carrying the weight of black women everywhere. Our redemption. You gotta kill the entire performance. Because that's Super Bowl anyway. So, it doesn't matter who you are. That performance is lots of pressure. So, coming off a very emotionally, corporately difficult time for me, with highs and lows. And then, six months later, my husband was diagnosed with cancer. Unfortunately, neither of us were new to cancer because both of our mothers had battled breast cancer.

• 47:58Bozoma Saint John?

  And at the time he was diagnosed, my mother was going through her second bout, actually. So, literally, the world came crashing. Because it was like, my mom was battling her cancer. And then, he got sick. And it just felt... It felt... It just felt impossible. My daughter was four. And it was just like, I don't understand how this happens. But we went into like, overdrive. It was like, okay, you know, we're gonna make the T-shirts. We're gonna make the Facebook group. We're gonna have the prayer circles. Found the best oncologist. All the alternative treatments, everything. And then, he died. Oh, man. Even as I sit here talking to you, like, it's still unbelievable to me. He was just... He was just so big. His spirit was so big. It just... It doesn't make any sense to me.

• 48:43Bozoma Saint John?

  We didn't plan our life for him to die.

• 48:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:48Bozoma Saint John?

  It's unbelievable that that could happen.

• 48:50Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 48:51Bozoma Saint John?

  He passed away in December of 2013.

• 48:54Lewis Howes?

  So quickly after he got diagnosed?

• 48:56Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, six months.

• 48:58Lewis Howes?

  Six months after?

• 48:59Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, from his diagnosis to his death. It was very, very quick. But in that process, the gift in it was that we really, I mean, and this is gonna sound so trite, but I'm telling you, like, it's the way I live my life now, which is that every day matters. There is not one wasteful day. Every day, and everything you choose to do in the day matters. Because that's what we're faced with. At the time, when the oncologist was like, okay, you guys are gonna have to be very purposeful. Because guess what's gonna happen? Tomorrow, he's gonna wake up and something else is not gonna work. So you're gonna have to decide today what you wanna do. And then tomorrow, when you wake up, see what's working, and then do something again. Okay? And then the next day, and that's, that's where we lived. It was, it was like, it was being under the most intense pressure, trying to prepare for the end, but trying to like live for today. It was just...

• 49:44Lewis Howes?

  There was no hope, or they were not giving you like, there was no chance?

• 49:48Bozoma Saint John?

  No.

• 49:48Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 49:49Bozoma Saint John?

  We tried. It was nine different chemos, all the radiation, nothing was working. It just get worse. And so by the time it was like October, in fact, October 25th, so anniversary coming up, where it was, the oncologist was just like, you know, nothing's gonna work. And so you guys are gonna have to decide what you wanna do. Probably have about three weeks after that.

• 50:08Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 50:09Bozoma Saint John?

  And we were stunned silence, like, sitting there like, we don't understand what you're saying. You know, we just, we don't understand what you're saying.

• 50:17Lewis Howes?

  What was he like, what was he like in those moments where he knew there was only a month or a few months left? And how did he handle that? And what did you learn about yourself watching his process?

• 50:26Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. Well, he, you know, it's, it's like so interesting, because it's like, I actually haven't really thought about that. He vacillated between being super pissed, very angry about his diagnosis, about being robbed. Of his life.

• 50:45Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 50:46Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, he was not yet forty-four.

• 50:48Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 50:49Bozoma Saint John?

  We had a, like I said, we had a four-year-old. We're living our best lives, right? And he was, he was really pissed, you know, to be robbed of it. And at the same time, and this is what makes it so complicated, is that, and also part of the blessing, which is that because the, because the oncologist, who, by the way, God bless her, she was like this little tiny sprite of a woman, you know, full of energy and like determination. She did everything. She gave us all the options. But it was her message of like, just do everything. You know, whatever it is that you've wanted to do, do it. Like, don't wait. Like, there's no, don't come back here and hopefully, don't do that. Like, just, just live it, you know?

• 51:31Bozoma Saint John?

  And so he vacillated between this anger. But then, as it was coming true and as things were failing, his body started failing him. He was so urgent, you know, to like, live. So it replaced the anger. I feel like it trained my muscles on like, living urgently. That there was no other option. We quickly realized that anger has no place. What are you gonna be mad, like, what are you gonna do? You gonna be mad for what? You gonna sit there and be upset? And are you gonna bicker over something stupid? We don't have time. You don't have time. So now it's like, even, you know, it's, it's almost four years.

• 52:13Bozoma Saint John?

  And even now, like, when I get upset about something, it burns so quick. Listen, I could, used to be the master hoarder of anger and feelings. I would hold a grudge.

• 52:24Lewis Howes?

  Years.

• 52:25Bozoma Saint John?

  Woo, man, I was a professional. But now my anger burns quickly. Because I just realized that it has, it has no purpose. It doesn't drive me to do anything better or greater or live any better. So I'm really trying, and I, I'm still working at it, but like, I really do.

• 52:43Lewis Howes?

  When you're not perfect.

• 52:44Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. I know.

• 52:46Lewis Howes?

  Come on, Buzz.

• 52:47Bozoma Saint John?

  I know, it's shocking.

• 52:48Lewis Howes?

  What would you say is, you know, if you're willing to share one of the most beautiful moments that you guys had together in those last few weeks?

• 52:54Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, man. There were so many, to be honest. November 9th was our anniversary of our first date.

• 53:01Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 53:02Bozoma Saint John?

  And so that, November 9th, actually like posted on Facebook and whatnot, because he was getting his chemo treatment. Because we hadn't yet, you know, we were still getting treatments, although we were not staying at the hospital, but he would come in and out. And I was like, sitting with, and he was a collector of fine wines, which again is part of the lesson, which was just like, what are we saving these bottles for? So we cracked open this like, super expensive bottle, you know what I mean? And he obviously couldn't drink it, so I drank it by myself. You know, just sitting on his hospital bed, he's like, sitting there with the IVs. And you know, I was just looking at him and just like, of all the years, we'd been together 13 years, married for 10.

• 53:48Bozoma Saint John?

  Just remembering all of the things and remembering the small stupid things that I was angry about, or that I resented, or that I wish had been better, or da, da, da, you know? And we, we decided in that moment that we were going to confess everything that we'd ever harbored, that we hadn't talked about.

• 54:09Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow.

• 54:11Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, and it was.

• 54:12Lewis Howes?

  Was there some crazy stuff that opened up for both of you?

• 54:14Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, because it was like so stupid and so little. Stuff that you were just like, I can't believe I'm so mad about this, but let me just tell you, you know what I mean? Because it felt like the unreleasing, you know, things. And it was probably one of the most beautiful gifts, because again, the lesson was that, like, I just can't hold on to anger or little petty things, you know, or even the big things, that somebody does something to you and you're mad about it, like, you need to talk it through. You know, hold on to it. It was a beautiful thing because it was like our anniversary, which we always celebrated. We got married in June, but that was like our anniversary moment, we probably celebrated bigger than our wedding. But it was just to think that, God, we don't have much time left and we've got to release everything that we've got.

• 54:58Bozoma Saint John?

  And just let it go. But it also taught me a lot about relying on other people. Up until then, I felt pretty invincible.

• 55:07Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:08Bozoma Saint John?

  Pretty self sustaining.

• 55:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:09Bozoma Saint John?

  I was Wonder Woman, Wonder Mom, Wonder Executive, Wonder Everything, Wonder Wife, all that. And then you realize that you're truly powerless and that you've got to rely on other people for help. And that's not a sign of weakness, actually.

• 55:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:23Bozoma Saint John?

  To get help.

• 55:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, wow.

• 55:24Bozoma Saint John?

  Which has also been great because I don't mind asking anybody to help me.

• 55:30Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 55:30Bozoma Saint John?

  Now I'm just like, hey, listen, so I got the dry cleaning that I need you to pick up.

• 55:34Lewis Howes?

  I didn't support it.

• 55:34Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what I mean? Like, the little things and the big things. I'm not at all afraid. And that's why it's like even now when people are like, oh, my God, how you do it all? I'm like, I don't do it all.

• 55:44Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 55:44Bozoma Saint John?

  There's no pride in that. I don't find any pride in carrying it all yourself. Like, you think that makes you big and bad? No, it's gonna kill you. You know, so you share that weight. Ask people for help.

• 55:57Lewis Howes?

  There's so much I want to continue asking you. We got about 15 minutes.

• 56:01Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, how is this possible?

• 56:02Lewis Howes?

  I want to see how much I can get in.

• 56:04Bozoma Saint John?

  Okay.

• 56:04Lewis Howes?

  In 15 minutes. And thank you for sharing all that about the process and that experience because I know that's got to be probably one of the most challenging things that any human could ever go through. So, thanks for sharing and opening up about that, yeah. I wanted to get back to the Beats experience.

• 56:19Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, yes.

• 56:20Lewis Howes?

  Because I think there's so much of your life that is fascinating to understand. And, you know, after watching the Defiant Ones.

• 56:27Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 56:28Lewis Howes?

  I'm just like, were you in that, by the way?

• 56:29Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, I was.

• 56:30Lewis Howes?

  Okay, I'm sure there was a moment where I started just forgetting now because I didn't know about you until.

• 56:33Bozoma Saint John?

  Had different hair.

• 56:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Which was unbelievable, the Defiant Ones. So I'm just curious how you got involved. It sounds like they snatched you up from Pepsi.

• 56:43Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, yes.

• 56:44Lewis Howes?

  What that journey was like.

• 56:45Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 56:46Lewis Howes?

  And kind of like, you know, where you're at now.

• 56:48Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 56:49Lewis Howes?

  In 15 minutes.

• 56:50Bozoma Saint John?

  In 15 minutes, okay. Well, here's the thing, I mean, it really does connect because my, after my husband passed away, almost three months later, and I was just in a vulnerable state. I needed something else to believe in.

• 57:01Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 57:01Bozoma Saint John?

  And by the way, make no bones about the fact that I love to work. I love my work, I love the things I do. I just need to find new purpose.

• 57:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Bozoma Saint John?

  And he was saying all the right things.

• 57:10Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm, yeah. He was, yeah.

• 57:11Bozoma Saint John?

  He was saying, because Pepsi was big and I was successful and. Could have stayed there another 20 years if I wanted to. But I met Jimmy. He reached out. He had some people find me. And I was already in LA for my sister's wedding. And so, you know, I got the call, which was like, Jimmy Ivy would like you to come to his house. And I was like, for what? And get to his house and-

• 57:31Lewis Howes?

  And was Beats big by then, or was it like-

• 57:32Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was big.

• 57:33Lewis Howes?

  It was well known and it was-

• 57:35Bozoma Saint John?

  Well, Beats, Electronus was really big. Beats Music had been launched actually on my birthday, two months before that. It was still new, very, very new. Jimmy was basically like, hey, listen, I've had many turns in my career. I've been successful at all of them. All of them have been in music and then now it's like this electronics thing. But he wanted his legacy to be, and Dre and Trent Reznor, like, all wanted to change the way, the trajectory of the music business. Because we all know that the value of the music itself was starting to be lost, right?

• 58:06Lewis Howes?

  This was 2014?

• 58:07Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, this 2014.

• 58:08Lewis Howes?

  So the headphones were big.

• 58:09Bozoma Saint John?

  Headphones were big.

• 58:10Lewis Howes?

  Now they're doing the music stuff.

• 58:11Bozoma Saint John?

  Music service had just launched.

• 58:12Lewis Howes?

  Got it. But this is right around the time when like, no one was buying-

• 58:16Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I know.

• 58:16Lewis Howes?

  Records anymore. It was just kind of like all streamed or free or downloading. Yeah, yeah.

• 58:19Bozoma Saint John?

  Everything was free. And so artists were no longer making music to sell.

• 58:22Lewis Howes?

  And they're like, how do I make money?

• 58:24Bozoma Saint John?

  They were on tour.

• 58:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 58:25Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, and anyone will tell you that an artist on tour all the time-

• 58:28Lewis Howes?

  Exhausting.

• 58:28Bozoma Saint John?

  Will kill you. You know, it's like, freaking people are taking five years to make albums. Now you're churning out albums like-

• 58:35Lewis Howes?

  Every two, three years and then-

• 58:36Bozoma Saint John?

  I mean, it's like every year. So, in any case, I really loved the message and the fact that, because what he was talking about was in the future. And I was in an emotional place where I needed the future.

• 58:47Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 58:48Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, I needed something to grab on to that could pull me forward. And so, quite honestly, I simply went because nothing else anybody was talking about was about the future. And I was like, if I sit here and just wallow in this grief and like, keep doing the things I've been doing, I won't survive. I needed something to just push me forward. So, I said yes. In that meeting, first time meeting him, he was like, you should just move out here and come work for me. Because I lived in New York. And I was like, okay. So I go back to the house and I fly back to New York and I'm like, ma. So, and my mom had come through her battle and was healthy, was recovering. And I was like, so, I quit my job at Pepsi and I'm gonna move us to LA.

• 59:32Bozoma Saint John?

  And she was like, the hell you are. But thank God, she's a trusting person and she was like, okay, I'm coming with you. Cause you're probably having a mental breakdown, which I probably was. But yeah, we moved and I walked in with all the confidence of feeling like, okay, this is, this is gonna be the savior for me. Provide for my family because I was also facing the tremendous pressure of thinking like, okay, now I've got a four-year-old that I've got to support by myself. I had not planned on being a single mother. That was not the agreement I made. And so I went in feeling like, okay, I'm gonna make this work. And literally it was like, my first day, I signed the paperwork, they shut the door.

• 1:00:16Bozoma Saint John?

  Jimmy's like, come with me. I walk into room, it's like Dre, it's Trent. There's some people I don't know, but they look vaguely familiar. Now I know it's like Eddie Q and Tim Cook. He's like, so we're gonna be acquired by Apple.

• 1:00:29Lewis Howes?

  Right then.

• 1:00:30Bozoma Saint John?

  And I'm like, what?

• 1:00:31Lewis Howes?

  Like the first day or first week?

• 1:00:33Bozoma Saint John?

  It was the first week.

• 1:00:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:00:34Bozoma Saint John?

  It was like day four or something. In the course of two months, after that, we were acquired by Apple.

• 1:00:41Lewis Howes?

  It was like transitioning, getting, preparing for that.

• 1:00:43Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. By June, we're sitting in the like, Apple keynote and being announced that Apple's gonna acquire Beats.

• 1:00:49Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:00:50Bozoma Saint John?

  And then we took the next year to build Apple Music and create a new brand.

• 1:00:57Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:00:58Bozoma Saint John?

  Which I can't express enough how important that moment of time was for me.

• 1:01:03Lewis Howes?

  I'm sure.

• 1:01:03Bozoma Saint John?

  To give me something else to look, to just keep propelling me forward. And that's really what, you know, it's like, I've, I've talked to a lot of people now who, especially women who've gone through something like this, you know, lost their spouse and the number one question is always like, how do you make it out of this period? And my advice is that like, listen, I don't know what's gonna help you because grief is different for everyone, right? Uh, but for me, I needed the future. I needed the future in order to pull myself out of the current grief, right? And so that period of time, I'm always grateful for because it just meant that like, I was, I was building, building towards something.

• 1:01:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Wow.

• 1:01:42Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Lewis Howes?

  Wow. And so you were there for a few years?

• 1:01:45Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, three years, three and a half years. And then...

• 1:01:48Lewis Howes?

  And what was the biggest lesson you learned from Dre or Jimmy?

• 1:01:51Bozoma Saint John?

  The biggest lesson from Jimmy is like how he connects with people. You'll be in his office and you will feel like the most important person.

• 1:01:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:00Bozoma Saint John?

  Every time. You know, he's that way with artists. They trust him, you know, implicitly. Not because like he's always made the right call, although he'll tell you he always made the right call. Uh, but because they...

• 1:02:10Lewis Howes?

  He cares.

• 1:02:10Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, he cares. And he, I mean, he goes the extra mile. He'll make the phone calls and he's urgent. If you're sitting in a meeting, you know how sometimes you're like in a meeting, people are like, yeah, so next steps are, let's uh, get a meeting with this person and we're gonna...

• 1:02:22Lewis Howes?

  He's like, on the phone now.

• 1:02:24Bozoma Saint John?

  Every time. Don't ever go into a meeting with Jimmy and pretend like you're gonna come out of there with like some next steps you gotta do later. You better be on the phone in the meeting and be like, actually, just give me one second, let me call.

• 1:02:34Lewis Howes?

  Let's do this now. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:35Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, you know what I mean? And get the answer. And so the biggest lesson from him was about urgency. And then Dre, it's about maniacal focus. You know, like just the focus, the focus, the focus, like, and knowing that you don't want anything to come out that you don't feel proud of. He does not care about your pressure or your timeline.

• 1:02:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it took him like 10 years to do his album.

• 1:02:55Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. If it doesn't feel good, it's not coming out. You know how hard that is? That's difficult. In the like face of so much pressure, outside pressures from everything.

• 1:03:05Lewis Howes?

  When you got some resources and money, you can be more patient, but yeah.

• 1:03:08Bozoma Saint John?

  There's still, there's still pressure because you know, people are making their living based on the thing you're gonna produce.

• 1:03:13Lewis Howes?

  Expecting you something.

• 1:03:14Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. Yeah. There's disappointment from your fans and from all kinds of people who will talk about you. Question your talent, question your sanity. And you're sitting here like, mm, but the beat's not right.

• 1:03:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. Wow, wow. And so you had a great experience there, Beats? And then you transitioned to Uber a few months ago, right?

• 1:03:32Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, three months ago.

• 1:03:32Lewis Howes?

  Why did that transition happen? Why not stay at Apple and...

• 1:03:35Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. Well, I definitely was on a trajectory at Apple. I'd done the keynote, which was great and getting lots of praise for that. And then, again, divine intervention, I met Ariana Huffington at a dinner.

• 1:03:48Lewis Howes?

  She's great.

• 1:03:48Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, she's awesome.

• 1:03:49Lewis Howes?

  We've had her on a few times. Yeah, she's great.

• 1:03:51Bozoma Saint John?

  I love her so much. And she's another person, actually, talking about lessons with people who also makes you feel like you're the most important person.

• 1:03:57Lewis Howes?

  She does. She does.

• 1:03:58Bozoma Saint John?

  Like she connects and she won't let go until you're done with the conversation. You know what I mean?

• 1:04:02Lewis Howes?

  She's great.

• 1:04:02Bozoma Saint John?

  It's such a great thing. Any case... I was talking to her because she joined the board of Uber. Because of all the work I've done in pop culture and blah, blah, and like Delete Uber had just happened when I met her.

• 1:04:15Lewis Howes?

  Oh, it did?

• 1:04:15Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, it just happened.

• 1:04:17Lewis Howes?

  Because of the, that's a whole nother thing.

• 1:04:19Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, there's so many things. But you know, what was interesting to me was the fact that Uber didn't do anything differently than Lyft or anybody else. Everybody did the same thing. So why did Uber get painted with this like horrible brush? That's, that's a branding problem.

• 1:04:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's a story they were telling.

• 1:04:38Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 1:04:39Lewis Howes?

  The stories that were happening.

• 1:04:40Bozoma Saint John?

  They weren't telling their own story. Everybody else was telling it for them. And so that's actually what I said to Ariana. We had a very philosophical conversation about brand marketing, what it meant. And then obviously, like, we've been talking about the evidence of pop culture driving business or destroying it.

• 1:04:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:55Bozoma Saint John?

  And me saying, I was just like, hey, listen, I'm like, I feel like I'm the foremost expert in this.

• 1:05:00Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:05:00Bozoma Saint John?

  I know what I'm talking about. And she was like, would you mind like telling Travis this stuff? Like, whatever you're telling him? I'm like, yeah, okay, no problem. When I have time. And so, lo and behold, Saturday afternoon, she's like, come to my house. He's there for an hour. And I go in and I meet with him and it turned into eight hours.

• 1:05:17Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:05:17Bozoma Saint John?

  We're just pontificating on the situation. And literally, I left there thinking, work, I think I have to go work there.

• 1:05:25Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh, yeah.

• 1:05:27Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, my God, am I actually gonna do this? Like, I'm gonna quit my job and go work here. And like, I tried to shake it. I liken it to like falling in love with the wrong guy. You know what I mean? Where you're just like, oh, my God, I really like him.

• 1:05:41Lewis Howes?

  You're right. You kind of felt like your time had passed at Apple or with Beats or kind of?

• 1:05:44Bozoma Saint John?

  No, I don't know. No, I definitely had things to do.

• 1:05:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:47Bozoma Saint John?

  But I just couldn't pass up the opportunity. I'd already been in this like amazing position to recreate or to create a brand, actually, from scratch, because we created Apple Music from scratch. Which, in a marketer's world, is Mount Olympus.

• 1:06:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's like you have all the resources you need, you can access anything.

• 1:06:05Bozoma Saint John?

  I mean, you're living the life. You know what I mean? You're good, you know? And the thought that like, I could have the opportunity to have yet another brand on my record that says, I did that. Like, I, I did that.

• 1:06:19Lewis Howes?

  I brought it back, right? Yeah.

• 1:06:21Bozoma Saint John?

  It's just too sweet. I couldn't, I couldn't.

• 1:06:23Lewis Howes?

  Tastes good.

• 1:06:24Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, man, delicious. And then plus, and I've been pretty open about this, which is that like, I am unhappy with diversity and inclusion in Silicon Valley. It is unacceptable.

• 1:06:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:36Bozoma Saint John?

  And so.

• 1:06:36Lewis Howes?

  Well, it's like you're the only black person, right?

• 1:06:37Bozoma Saint John?

  I mean.

• 1:06:38Lewis Howes?

  Especially black woman.

• 1:06:39Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what I'm saying? I'm like, there are lots of black people everywhere who are talented. Black women are currently the most educated group in the United States of America. Why can't they get jobs in Silicon Valley? Doesn't make any sense. Makes no sense. So if there's gonna be a brand that's gonna be vilified for its lack of diversity, which by the way, the numbers are greater than most Silicon Valley companies, including some that I've worked for.

• 1:07:01Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:07:02Bozoma Saint John?

  And people wanna paint that as the scapegoat? Fine, let's do that. Because once we can prove that all of these conditions that are being painted is like the horrible things that are happening in this company, and we can fix that, guess what's gonna happen? Gonna come for the rest of them.

• 1:07:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, right, right, exactly.

• 1:07:21Bozoma Saint John?

  It's like, then I want every company in Silicon Valley. There will be no reason why anybody can't do it. If these folks who have been under the ground, vilified and beaten up for all of these horrible practices culturally, if they can rise from that, there is no reason why anybody else can't. And if there's anything that's, that I wanna be my legacy for this time period in Silicon Valley, it's that. Now I've forgotten, like, okay, change the brand and create the brand. I'm gonna do that, cuz I do that well. I could do that, no problem.

• 1:07:52Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 1:07:52Bozoma Saint John?

  But the real legacy needs to be breaking this cycle. Like, that, that has to be it. Like, I can't, I can't leave this and not have made a difference so that the pipeline is full of people who don't look anything like the people who are currently in Silicon Valley.

• 1:08:09Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. Well, you're doing it. You're amazing. This is awesome.

• 1:08:12Bozoma Saint John?

  We're gonna do it.

• 1:08:13Lewis Howes?

  Okay, this is the final three questions.

• 1:08:16Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, gosh, okay.

• 1:08:16Lewis Howes?

  Final three questions. I wanna ask so much more, but.

• 1:08:18Bozoma Saint John?

  Speed round? Or how, how does this work?

• 1:08:20Lewis Howes?

  I mean, no.

• 1:08:21Bozoma Saint John?

  Okay.

• 1:08:21Lewis Howes?

  Whatever, whatever opens the door. It can be fast, it can be slow, it can be whatever, whatever makes sense. The first one is called the three truths. So I ask this to all my guests at the end of every episode.

• 1:08:31Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 1:08:32Lewis Howes?

  Imagine this is your last day many years from now. And you've accomplished everything you want. You've made all the change and impact in the world that you want to make for your legacy. You've done whatever you want personally, family wise, whatever may be, you've done it.

• 1:08:47Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 1:08:48Lewis Howes?

  Lived a full, rich life.

• 1:08:48Bozoma Saint John?

  Amen.

• 1:08:50Lewis Howes?

  But for whatever reason, all the information you put out there, your speeches, the books you write, whatever it may be, they're all erased from time.

• 1:08:58Lewis Howes?

  So all people have is this piece of paper that you're about to write down.

• 1:09:02Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 1:09:02Lewis Howes?

  Three things you know to be true. And you write down three things that are true, and that's all that the world can have to remember you by. What would you say are your three truths or three lessons that you would share with the world?

• 1:09:14Bozoma Saint John?

  Okay, well, maybe it's a little unfair because I actually just gave. Yeah, I just gave a speech yesterday for Forbes Under 30 Summit.

• 1:09:22Lewis Howes?

  Great.

• 1:09:22Bozoma Saint John?

  Where I talk about my five truths.

• 1:09:24Lewis Howes?

  Perfect. So top three.

• 1:09:25Bozoma Saint John?

  Okay, top, now I see now, see, why you gotta do that? Okay, top three. I've talked a lot about it. So one is to follow your gut. It will never steer you wrong. Like, don't make the list, the pros and cons and weigh it out. Because the only reason we do those things is because we're trying to talk ourselves into something we know we shouldn't do. That's the only reason you do the list, you know, because you're like, oh yeah, this makes sense. Yeah, I'm going to rationalize to myself. But it's like your gut told you, don't do that thing. And you're writing down a list, that's why you should. That's one. Two, bring your whole self to every situation, whether it's work or relationship or whatever else. Bring your whole self, right? Because I think especially in work and in corporate life particularly,

• 1:10:08Bozoma Saint John?

  we always feel like we need to hide part of it because the evidence of what is successful most of the time looks nothing like us. And I'm not saying us as in black women, I'm just us in general, anybody. You know, there's a very slim definition of what success is supposed to be and what it looks like. So we often shave the sides of ourselves that are not that thing.

• 1:10:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:10:33Bozoma Saint John?

  If it doesn't benefit any of us. You know, and isn't the world so much more bright and colorful and amazing if we were to bring all of us and our whole thing to the work? And then the third, mm, this is a tough one, the last one, to be kind, be kind to ourselves and to other people. I explained about that moment on the bed with, you know, my husband on our anniversary, where it's like, you know, I just wish I'd been more kind to him.

• 1:11:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:02Bozoma Saint John?

  And to myself in the process of our relationship. So be kind.

• 1:11:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, those are great truths. Those are great truths. I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Boz, for your incredible uniqueness and your voice and for making an impact on so many people by breaking barriers, by standing up for what you believe in, following your intuition and showing other people what's possible for their life. I think it's unbelievable, the example you're setting on how we should all be living our lives. So thank you for showing up powerfully and fully and as yourself.

• 1:11:36Bozoma Saint John?

  Don't make me cry, because I cry easy. You know what I mean?

• 1:11:43Lewis Howes?

  Before I ask the final question, where can we connect with you online? Or how can we support your mission? Or anything that we want us to be aware of? Where do you hang out the most, social media and your website?

• 1:11:54Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, I hang out on social media, mostly on Instagram, badass Boz.

• 1:11:58Lewis Howes?

  Badass Boz.

• 1:11:59Bozoma Saint John?

  Correct.

• 1:12:00Lewis Howes?

  B O Z.

• 1:12:01Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, correct, yes. And on Twitter, same name. That's mostly where I share anything, everything. I've been told I overshare. I don't care.

• 1:12:09Lewis Howes?

  Got it.

• 1:12:09Bozoma Saint John?

  You'll find me like, living my truths.

• 1:12:12Lewis Howes?

  Great.

• 1:12:13Bozoma Saint John?

  Or in a bikini. Hey, you know what I'm saying? Open for all to see. No problem. That's where I am.

• 1:12:18Lewis Howes?

  Cool, cool, awesome. Is there anything you'd like us to take action on?

• 1:12:21Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I, I want everyone to cheerlead this moment in time for what I'm doing in Silicon Valley. I think there are enough people who point fingers and say that there's something wrong. There's not enough people applauding the small wins. And that's what we need, encouragement. Because when you have encouragement, then other people feel emboldened to help.

• 1:12:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:40Bozoma Saint John?

  When there's so much finger pointing and bad sort of stories and people downing it, then no one wants to help. So I would ask that people help in that they encourage. I recognize that the company and some of the actions are not always positive, but let's applaud the good things. Let's be loud about that.

• 1:12:59Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 1:12:59Bozoma Saint John?

  As loud as we are when it's negative.

• 1:13:01Lewis Howes?

  Right, that's great, that's great. The final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:13:05Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, definition of greatness. Oh my God, that is such a hard question. Jesus, Lord on high, Father God, help me. My definition of greatness. It's like living at a hundred percent, the totality of things. That whole circle, unbroken. There's so much power in that. It's like, have you ever tried to squeeze a circle and try to break it? You really can't because it's like the pressure is on every side. You know, you can break a stick. We can't break a circle when you try to apply pressure to it. And I feel like the same thing is for our lives. If you like are living your whole complete truth, the whole completeness of yourself, you can't break.

• 1:13:48Bozoma Saint John?

  I'm not going to break because I'm living my whole circle.

• 1:13:51Lewis Howes?

  That's great. Boz, you're amazing. I'm so glad we got to connect. Thank you very much.

• 1:13:57Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh my God, this is so awesome.

• 1:13:58Lewis Howes?

  You're like a sister now, so thank you for being on.

• 1:14:00Bozoma Saint John?

  This is what I'm telling you, we're like.

• 1:14:01Lewis Howes?

  We're in, we're connected.

• 1:14:03Bozoma Saint John?

  This is so great, this is so great.

• 1:14:04Lewis Howes?

  I appreciate you, thank you very much.

• 1:14:05Bozoma Saint John?

  And we're going to go back to Ghana together.

• 1:14:06Lewis Howes?

  I'm in.

• 1:14:07Bozoma Saint John?

  I'm saying that now, my tension is in the air.

• 1:14:09Lewis Howes?

  Let's do it.

• 1:14:09Bozoma Saint John?

  Seriously.

• 1:14:10Lewis Howes?

  I'm going to come build a school with me.

• 1:14:11Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 1:14:12Lewis Howes?

  Let's do it.

• 1:14:12Bozoma Saint John?

  A girls' academy.

• 1:14:14Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:14:15Bozoma Saint John?

  Okay.

• 1:14:16Lewis Howes?

  Well, I work with Pencil Promise and they build schools their own way, but yeah.

• 1:14:19Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, okay, okay.

• 1:14:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, so let's do it with an organization.

• 1:14:21Bozoma Saint John?

  I'm down for it, we're doing it.

• 1:14:23Lewis Howes?

  I'm in.

• 1:14:23Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh my God, it's amazing.

• 1:14:25Lewis Howes?

  Cool, Boz, thank you.

• 1:14:27Bozoma Saint John?

  You guys.

• 1:14:27Lewis Howes?

  Appreciate you.

• 1:14:28Bozoma Saint John?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:14:29Lewis Howes?

  This is great.

• 1:14:29Bozoma Saint John?

  This is awesome.

• 1:14:35Lewis Howes?

  There you have it my friends. I hope you enjoyed this one. If you did, make sure to share it with your friends on Instagram, on Twitter, Facebook. Take a screenshot of this podcast right now and tag me @lewishouse and tag Bozma. LewisHouse.com/559. Go ahead and put that link out there online. If you go there, you'll see the full video interview over on YouTube, on the show notes, and all the other resources that we talked about. Make sure to dive into Bozma's world and learn more about her. She's a powerful human and I really enjoyed this interview. There you have it guys. Again, if you enjoyed this, make sure to let me know. Send me some love on social media and tag Bozma as well because she is doing some amazing

• 1:15:17Lewis Howes?

  things in the world. The resource link for this is LewisHouse.com/559. And as always, you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.