Oprah & Maria Shriver on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home

This episode of The Oprah Podcast features special guest Maria Shriver, an Emmy and Peabody award-winning journalist, former national news anchor, seven-time New York Times best-selling author and a world-renowned women’s health and Alzheimer’s research advocate. Maria Shriver, who has been dear friends with Oprah since they met nearly 50 years ago, joins the Podcast to talk about her new book of poetry titled I AM MARIA: My Reflections and Poems on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home. After reading the breathtaking book, Oprah said Maria Shriver “has Americans reading poetry again!” And she called it “raw and soul-baring… My jaw was on the floor!” Through poetry, Maria Shriver, who was born into American political royalty and public tragedy, shares never-before-heard intimate stories from her childhood including what it was like growing up with her mother, Eunice Kennedy Shriver, and her father, Sargent Shriver, as well as being the only girl in a household of brothers she calls “chaotic” and “terrifying.” Maria candidly talks about her 25-year marriage to Arnold Schwarzenegger and what happened the moment she found out her marriage was over. Maria shares lessons on what the betrayal and heartbreak of her divorce taught her about her past traumas and how she’s been able to find forgiveness. Maria writes about raising her four children, her favorite role of all – grandmother to Chris Pratt and Katherine Schwarzenegger’s three children (they call her Mama G) - and how she’s finally found peace. Maria says, “I never imagined writing poetry would help me embark on a journey deep into myself. I never imagined that everything I sought or thought I needed was within me all along.” Oprah tells viewers and listeners she sees this book of poetry as an invitation for anyone who is ready to create an authentic and meaningful life for themselves. BUY THE BOOK! https://amzn.to/4fRALfd ⁠https://books.apple.com/us/book/i-am-maria/id6736963057⁠ https://books.apple.com/us/book/i-am-maria/id6736963057 This episode of The Oprah Podcast is presented by LillyDirect. Redefining the healthcare experience as a digital health platform that offers disease management resources to help make it easier for people living with chronic conditions to access quality care. Visit their convenient healthcare services at LillyDirect.com https://lillydirect.lilly.com/?utm_source=oprah&utm_medium=progdisplay&utm_campaign=q2ld&utm_content=agnostic-catchall-oprah-podcast-awareness-&utm_term=audio-youtube Subscribe: ⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprah/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Oprah Winfrey?

  This episode of the Oprah Podcast is presented by Lilly Direct, your online healthcare resource. Hello to you, dear podcast listener and YouTube watcher. I know your time is valuable, so I am thanking you all for taking the time to be with me here. My guest today is a long, long, long time friend, Maria Shriver. Actually, Maria and I have been friends as long as Gail and I have been friends, and we all met in the same place, at WJZ TV in Baltimore. We met when we were both in our early 20s. So I've known you now for, we've been friends for 49 years. Yeah. And I knew that Maria was writing a book,

• 0:45Oprah Winfrey?

  and I asked her to send me her new book. I Am Maria: My Reflections and Poems on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home. I have to tell you all, and to tell you, that I read this on a rainy day, sitting in my window seat, and I wept. I wept because I've known you all these years. Maria Shriver has lived an extraordinary life, most of it in the public eye. She was born into American political royalty. Her father, Sergeant Shriver, was an American diplomat and was once a candidate for Vice President of the United States.

• 1:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Her mother was Eunice Kennedy Shriver. She was the sister of President John F. Kennedy and Senator Robert F. Kennedy. Eunice was the founder of the Special Olympics. Maria grew up the only girl in her family with four brothers. In 1986, Maria married the world famous actor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who later became Governor of California. Together, they have four children, Catherine, Christina, Patrick, and Christopher. They divorced in 2021. Maria is an Emmy and Peabody Award-winning journalist and former national news anchor. She served four years as First Lady of California.

• 2:10Oprah Winfrey?

  She's the creator of the award-winning digital publication, The Sunday Paper, which I love to read every week. Maria is the bestselling author of many books and one of the world's leading advocates for women's health and Alzheimer's research. And now she is a loving and doting grandmother to her daughter Catherine's children with actor Chris Pratt, Lila, Eloise, and Ford.

• 2:37Oprah Winfrey?

  In this book, you have opened, literally opened your soul and allowed all of us who have any feelings of loss or grief or not being enough or not being able to show up for ourselves, you have led us to the open field.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:56Oprah Winfrey?

  And bless you for that, and I am so proud of you for that. And it's all in the form of poems. And you go places I thought you would never go. I want to say I really, really, really am just honored that you have become and evolved into the woman that you are. And I'm so honored to have you as my friend.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. Well, I'm so honored to have you as my friend. And I love the idea of having such a long friendship. I love the idea of meeting somebody in my early twenties.

• 3:31Oprah Winfrey?

  We didn't know what was going on. I remember seeing you were in the bathroom that morning because you were working on Evening Magazine.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:37Oprah Winfrey?

  And you'd been up, and I said, whoa, what are you doing here? And you said, I've been up all night. And you're throwing water on your face.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  And we lived in the same apartment complex, right?

• 3:45Oprah Winfrey?

  We lived in the same apartment complex.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  We shopped at the same supermarket. We ate in the same supermarket.

• 3:50Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right. We would sit there and have those crab cakes. Yes, in Baltimore.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  In the supermarket, very glamorous. But the idea of having such a long friendship, you see, you know, you see someone through a marriage. You were in my wedding.

• 4:02Oprah Winfrey?

  I was in your wedding, yes.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  All my children. You were there when I got separated. You were there when I got divorced. You're there for me now. And I I feel like hopefully I've been there for you through all of your

• 4:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Through everything.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Transitions, through all the people you've been involved with, right? And I think that's one of life's greatest gifts, to have a relationship that stands the test of time. And that's given me the strength to be standing here. I write in this book that when I got separated, it was a masterclass in friendship. And you were there for me at every, as you well know, you smile, but at every step of the way. And I think that's how we become who we are meant to be, is that people hold our hands. They walk with us when we don't think we can get there on our own.

• 4:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and are willing to tell you the truth about yourself.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  Amen, yeah.

• 4:51Oprah Winfrey?

  And are willing to tell you the truth about yourself, even when it's hard to listen.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 4:56Oprah Winfrey?

  So let's get into it. This is not a memoir.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 4:59Oprah Winfrey?

  So, but how would you describe it?

• 5:01Speaker 01

  I'd say it's really an exploration of my life. It's an exploration really of my childhood. It's, uh, my daughter calls it reporter poetry. Mm-hmm. It's report, it's poetry from the front lines of my life. It's an exploration of my childhood. Who was I? How did I end up in this family? What did this family mean to me? How did I become who I am today? What's mine? What's theirs? What should I drop? Uh, what do I want to own and who do I want to be? And I think I am Maria, as I write in the beginning. The reflection is, when you're in a big family like that, you don't really have your own identity. You're a part of something larger than yourself.

• 5:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you were a part of the family, was America, was considered American royalty.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:46Oprah Winfrey?

  I mean, literally, you were born at a time when Camelot was becoming Camelot, right?

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Exactly, and so people would just come up to me and they would say, I'd say like, oh, hi, I'm Maria. They're like, no, no, no, but which, which Kennedy are you? Which Kennedy are you? And I'd say, well, I'm a Shriver. I'm a Shriver. They're like, but you're a Kennedy, right? Because I don't want to be talking to you if you're not a Kennedy, right? And then who's your mother? Who's your father? And I always had this sense of like, that being just myself

• 6:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Was not enough.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Was not enough. And I think that propelled me throughout my life. And so coming to the place where it would be okay to be myself, claim my own identity, I am. So my mother named me.

• 6:22Oprah Winfrey?

  I am Maria.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  I am Maria. Full sentence, stop. It's not my job, it's not the family that I'm in. I'm not somebody's niece, cousin, ex-wife, wife, friend. I am my own being, and who is that?

• 6:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Right, and you say, early in the book, "I never imagined that writing poetry would help me embark on a journey, deep into myself, and I never imagined that everything I sought for, that you were thinking, that you were looking for, was within you all along." Well, that's every spiritual teaching we've ever heard.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Well, I know, but I think I was raised in a family that taught you, like, you go out, you change the world, and that's the brass ring. There was no, there was no teaching that you're here, you're enough, sit down, it's okay. So, I was like, "Oh, okay, well, I'm gonna go out and change the world, and if I'm not doing that, I'm not gonna get love."

• 7:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, because at your dinner table, people literally had to come, talking about what you did today, and what is that going to, how is that gonna impact the world?

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Oh, big time.

• 7:22Oprah Winfrey?

  How are you gonna be of service?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, big time, you know, you were there.

• 7:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Hiding in the bathroom, she was.

• 7:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Hiding in the bathroom, because it's too much pressure!

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, who is your friend? What is she doing? Where is she going? What has she got to offer at the table?

• 7:34Oprah Winfrey?

  What are you gonna offer? Yes.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  What do you have to offer? And I was raised that way, and so, what do I have to offer? So, I would come prepared to the meal, I would come prepared to dinner, and I had the feeling that that's what was expected of me. It never dawned on me, that just being able to sit alone with a person, or just being on my own, would be enough. And so, I think I started to look at that, and I remember when I got separated, you gave me the gift of a meditation teacher.

• 8:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  And you said, I think-

• 8:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Meditation Bob.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Meditation Bob. He came to the hotel-

• 8:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  And he said, "I'm gonna teach you how to meditate," and I was like, "Uh, uh, uh." And he was like-

• 8:12Oprah Winfrey?

  How to quiet your mind.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  I could not, I could not. He realized, after the four days, that he was supposed to be there with me, he's like, "I don't think this is a good time to quiet your mind." But he literally sat with me, from 10 seconds, to 30 seconds, to a minute, to two minutes, to that being now, an integral part of my life. But that allowed me to sit with myself, to be enough for myself, and to start writing from this quiet place, that I had never been in, in my whole life.

• 8:40Oprah Winfrey?

  You say, "It was the heartbreak of your divorce, that cracked you open-"

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Reveal some of your biggest trauma. What, and that turned out to be, actually, your childhood. How did your divorce lead you back to your childhood?

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Well, it made me get quiet, first of all. And it made me think about, who am I now? How do I move forward if I'm not somebody's wife? If I'm not the first lady of California? Who is Maria? How do I, you know, conduct myself moving forward? What does forward look like? And so I tried to stop myself, get quiet, and really think about, who am I? How did I end up here? How did I end up in this place?

• 9:20Oprah Winfrey?

  And how did poetry become a part of it, Maria?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  I just started writing. Well, you know, yeah, I didn't. I had written, obviously, all the news stories. I wrote that kind of, but that's a different kind of writing. I wrote gratitude journals. You know, today I went and I saw Oprah. We had a fun time. This is what the day was like. But this kind of poetry, sitting there and just being quiet and realizing, oh, wait a minute, I'm sobbing. What am I sobbing about? Oh, I'm lonely. What am I lonely about? When did I first feel lonely? Where did that come from? Oh, I'm heartbroken. Is this the first time I felt it? Oh, no, I'm not. Let me close my eyes. Let me think about when I was a young girl and I was in a house by myself. And then I just started writing. And it just poured out of me.

• 10:03Oprah Winfrey?

  So let's start with your mother, Eunice Kennedy Shriver, who's one of the most formidable, powerful. I mean, I remember years ago saying, if she ran for president, I would do whatever I could to help her. And I think she, if she were born at another time, she would have been president. So Eunice Kennedy Shriver, her brothers are your uncles.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:25Oprah Winfrey?

  And were President John F. Kennedy and Senator Robert Kennedy. And Eunice was, as you say in the book, the most impactful person in your entire life. And in the book, you describe your household as being like a chaotic pressure cooker. Give us a picture of that.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Well, when I was little, we lived on a farm kind of outside of Washington DC. And my mother started the Special Olympics, so she had like a hundred people with intellectual disabilities running around in the backyard along with a hundred volunteers and coaches. And then my father would have all these young Peace Corps volunteers who wanted to go out and change the world, and they were running around on any given weekend. And my mother had this camp during the week.

• 11:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Where are you in the midst of all that?

• 11:08Speaker 01

  And I had four brothers, and they had like 20 dogs. And I was the only girl, I am the only girl. And I was in the middle of all of that. And so I was like, okay, where do I belong in all of this? And I had a horse, and I would go and spend my time with the horse, because it was the only place that was quiet. It was the only place that I was like, I could hear myself think. And I wanted to be a lot like my mother, because she was my role model, right? But it was chaotic and crazy and tragic, and there was constant upheaval, there were constant people coming in and out of the house. The table was filled with 15, 20 people. There was Mother Teresa, Robert McNamara, there were vice presidents, everybody was

• 11:53Speaker 01

  world leaders.

• 11:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, I remember the first time I went to your house, there are all these letters in the bathroom from like, all the world leaders you've ever read about in history.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  And you're like 23, right? And you're 24.

• 12:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  And I got the message that, you know, you need to be this. And I, you know, I never dawned on me to question that. I just expected that that's the path that I was gonna take.

• 12:16Oprah Winfrey?

  So, did you feel loved?

• 12:18Speaker 01

  I didn't even know what that was. I didn't even, nobody talked about love in my house. It wasn't a conversation anybody was having. We were talking about, we were out to change the world. We were talking about my Uncle Jack, we were talking about the Peace Corps, we were talking about people with intellectual disabilities. That's what we were talking about.

• 12:38Oprah Winfrey?

  And yet, when tragic things would happen, I remember having this conversation with you 20 years later, because I still remember November 22nd, 1963, like it was yesterday.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  It's probably in your body.

• 12:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, it's in my body, because I was nine years old, walking home from school in the rain by myself, and President Kennedy had been shot. And I remember having a conversation with you, and you said, We never discussed it at our house.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 13:01Oprah Winfrey?

  And I could not believe that.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Well, we didn't discuss feelings in my house. My mother had a saying where she would say, I don't want to hear one yip out of you. And I don't think she did it to be mean. She did it to just keep it moving.

• 13:17Oprah Winfrey?

  So the president of the United States, her brother is shot, and there's never a conversation about that.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  No, there's never a conversation about any of it. About, you know, her brother.

• 13:27Oprah Winfrey?

  And then four years later, your uncle is shot, and there's never a conversation about that.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  No, it's just like, let's keep moving, let's keep moving. And I think that came from her mother, who had gone through losing two other children.

• 13:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  And she just kept moving. She had a strong faith. And I think she wanted to represent a figure to her children. Things happen, but we have to carry on.

• 13:48Oprah Winfrey?

  That's why this book, I Am Maria, is so miraculous, actually. Because you came from an environment of what happened to you. Nobody discussed feelings. Nobody talked about, really, what were tragic events in the household. You just kept going and kept doing. And let's show what we can do to serve the world. And yet, you've now offered us your soul. Coming up, Maria Shriver explains why her mother Eunice had double padded doors to get into her bedroom, a place Maria was almost never allowed. Plus, she reveals what happened the moment she found out her marriage to Arnold Schwarzenegger was over. Thank you for listening to my conversation on the Oprah Podcast with my dear friend Maria Shriver.

• 14:33Oprah Winfrey?

  I've known her for nearly 50 years. We're talking about her new book of poetry titled, I Am Maria, where she opens up about the highs and the lows of her extraordinary life. I want to begin with some of your beautiful poems. So in one stanza of a poem titled, "The Child Within", I think, is that the first one? Yes, I want you.

• 14:57Oprah Winfrey?

  I'm gonna read it, okay?

• 14:58Speaker 01

  You read it.

• 15:00Oprah Winfrey?

  "The child within. What are you afraid of? Says the voice of the adult, full of judgment and scorn. I realize that's my mother talking to me. I know she can't abide fear or weakness. She can't handle neediness. She can't comfort the child in me. Don't come in my room, says my mother. Stay out of my room. Get out. Go away. Get out. Go away." So I do.

• 15:32Oprah Winfrey?

  That's my mother's voice. Stern, scary, terrifying. The child in me is anxious and scared. I wonder about the child in her. Is that child anxious and scared? Nobody saw her. Nobody sees me."

• 15:47Speaker 01

  That was how I grew up. And I have come full circle to really thinking about the child in my mother. How nobody saw her. Nobody comforted her. And I think our job is to heal ourselves so we don't continue the pattern. Right? I didn't want to be... I admired my mother. She's still my greatest role model. I think about her probably every single day. I'm in conversation with her.

• 16:14Oprah Winfrey?

  And you were one of those daughters, like Gail.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:17Oprah Winfrey?

  You were my two best friends. And I didn't have anything close to that kind of relationship with my mother. And both of you talk to your mothers every day, multiple times a day. And I could never understand, what the hell are y'all talking about?

• 16:30Speaker 01

  We were talking, yeah, about work, about my brothers. And about what are we doing? How are we changing the world? But I realized, after my mother died, really, that nobody talked to her about her feelings. Nobody comforted her. Nobody talked to her about her grief. So how could I have expected her to do that for me? And I wanted to break that pattern as a mother. I wanted to break that for my own children. So I talk a lot about feelings. I talk a lot about...

• 16:59Oprah Winfrey?

  With your boys and your girls.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  With my boys and my girls, and with my friends as well. To me, that's really important, is to go deep and to understand, what are you feeling? What are you thinking? How can I be there to support you? You know, in any way? Because I didn't get that as a kid.

• 17:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, explain the double padded door and the get out, get out. Your mother actually saying, go away, get, get out.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Well, my mother was sick pretty much all my life. And I think people didn't realize that really about her.

• 17:29Oprah Winfrey?

  No.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  And so she had two padded doors before going into her bedroom. And she told us that it was because she was a light sleeper and needed to sleep. But there were two really double padded doors to get into her room, which you didn't get into. And so my experience was she lived at the end of the hall, behind these two padded doors, that there was no way she could hear me if I knocked on the door. And I just grew up thinking, well, gosh, I guess that's how people are. Their mothers live behind padded doors. And then I would see other kids whose mothers didn't live behind padded doors. And my parents had separate bedrooms and I grew up like that.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  And I started to think later in life, like, what was she doing behind those padded doors? What was she trying to keep out? What was she afraid of? And it brings me great grief to think of her behind the doors and to think of me and my brothers in front of the doors. Yeah, trying to get in. And I think that, you know, I think I started to think about, in what way was I doing that? In what way did I have padded doors in my own life?

• 18:47Oprah Winfrey?

  You write this about feeling terrified in your own home. You say, "Everyone lives behind closed doors. I stand here, frozen in the darkness, terrified. My brothers can't help, they aren't yet men. As the sun begins to break through, I return to my room down the hall. I shut my door. Daylight is coming." One more night is over. I made it through again. What was it that was terrifying you?

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Well, you know, both of my uncles had been killed. So there was this feeling in my family that people were getting killed.

• 19:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  And so I thought, well, we're all gonna get killed.

• 19:25Oprah Winfrey?

  And now to kill you.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I lived in this house way out in the woods, lived next to a mental institution. And I just was terrified all the time. I was an only girl, as I said, and the feeling of like, somebody's gonna come in here, the house creaked.

• 19:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  The house, and it was scary.

• 19:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, and also, nobody talked about what it was and what had happened.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  And nobody picked me up and said, it's gonna be okay. What are you feeling? The idea of somebody talking to me about my feelings was so foreign. I don't think that happened until I was in my twenties or thirties or somebody would ask me how I feel. And I'd be like, fine, what, what? What, what do you mean, how do I feel? I don't know how I feel. Just keep going, let's keep working. And I think it wasn't until really, you know, conversations that we would have or that I'd start to be thinking, wow, I don't think, I think I should be feeling something. I don't know what I'm feeling. And then as I became a mother, I started to feel. I, you know, gave birth. I was always terrified to become a mother.

• 20:24Oprah Winfrey?

  But where was your father in all of this? So they lived, they slept in separate bedrooms, as a lot of people do.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Um, and your mother was at the end of the hall. Did he know that you were, you were and your brothers were trying to get in? Do you, did he know?

• 20:38Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 20:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  He, my father was mad about my mother. He thought he was the luckiest man in the world. He idolized my mother, adored her, and wanted to do everything he could to ease her physical pain and to help her become who she wanted to be. I think my mother was constantly herself, trying to get her parents' attention,

• 21:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  trying to be somebody in her own family. I think in many ways, she herself felt invisible in her family. And I think she felt she had no power in her family, that the power was all with the men. And so I have great empathy for my mother's journey.

• 21:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  I have. Incredible empathy for what my mother went through. And I found that, actually, in going to Hoffman, much later in life, understanding who my parents were when they were young, what were their dreams, how did they grow up? I hadn't really thought about them as two smaller individuals. You know, they were just big people to me. But trying to think about who they were at 12, who they were when they met, what their dreams were.

• 21:44Oprah Winfrey?

  And Hoffman is the Hoffman Institute?

• 21:46Speaker 01

  It's the Hoffman Institute, where you go to look at kind of patterns and process in your own family and how you can kind of look at your parents with not, you know...

• 21:57Oprah Winfrey?

  With a greater sense of empathy and understanding.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Not blaming them, but understanding them, what happened to them. And that was really the first time that I thought about what had happened to them.

• 22:07Oprah Winfrey?

  And did you see them differently? Is that where "I See You Now" came from? The poem that you write about your father?

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, "I See You Now." I didn't, you know, I wanted my father to stand up to this terror that I felt as a child. And I didn't understand his quiet strength. I didn't understand, you know, the way he was showing up in the world. And I didn't, I think, until I went to Hoffman, until I thought of how scary it must have been for him, how he himself was trying to navigate this big, competitive Irish Catholic family, how he was trying to be a different kind of man in this family. And I didn't have any sense of that. I just saw him as somebody who was...

• 22:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you think he was weak?

• 22:47Speaker 01

  I did, I did. I wanted to get a different kind of a man than my father.

• 22:51Oprah Winfrey?

  And now you write, will you read that poem? "I See You Now"?

• 22:55Speaker 01

  "I see you now. You see, all I wanted was for you to stand up, to rage against it all. But now, I see that wasn't your way. You had a way of doing things, a way I didn't understand." I wanted you to speak your mind, to yell out loud. I wanted you to take charge, but you had a different plan. You had your own way.

• 23:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  And I didn't know that about my father. I just felt like, what is going on here? Why don't you stand up? Why don't you get us out of here? Why don't you do something? And I didn't give him the benefit of what he actually was doing. I didn't understand him. I didn't understand the strength that he had. And I remember thinking to myself, I need to go out and get a different kind of man than this.

• 23:48Oprah Winfrey?

  And that's, yeah, and you also write about.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  And I did.

• 23:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, you did.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  And I did.

• 23:53Oprah Winfrey?

  You definitely did. As I was gonna say, no surprise then that you would fall in love with somebody who was the exact opposite.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Of how you saw your father. So when you met Arnold Schwarzenegger, you were just 21 and he was 30 years old. And when you first met, your family just thought it was just a passing phase.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:11Oprah Winfrey?

  And you thought, I'm gonna show them.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Right?

• 24:13Speaker 01

  And I think the more they thought it was a phase, the more I dug in. The more I was like, okay, I'm out of here. I also wanted to find my own path. I didn't want to stay on the East Coast. I didn't want to run for office.

• 24:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Didn't want to be in politics.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't want to be in politics. I didn't want to work at Special Olympics at the time. I didn't want to work in the government. And Arnold represented for me, somebody who lived on the West Coast, who had a freedom that I had never seen before. And I was like, I'm gonna go over there.

• 24:44Oprah Winfrey?

  And when Arnold decided that he wanted to run for governor.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:47Oprah Winfrey?

  I remember those days, you were sharply opposed to the idea.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:54Oprah Winfrey?

  And one of the things that I remember us having this conversation at the time about, you can run and run and run, and eventually it catches up with you. Because this is the exact opposite life that you had been seeking for yourself.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Right?

• 25:07Speaker 01

  And it was, what was interesting, my mother stepped in and was like, you know, don't complain here. I don't want to hear a yip out of you. Support him and carry on. And I was, I didn't even realize.

• 25:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Because your mother had said. As I recall at the time, your mother was saying, if you oppose it and he ends up not doing it,

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:24Oprah Winfrey?

  he will resent you forever.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Forever, yes. And I think the other thing I didn't even know is that how triggered that was for me. What a triggering decision, because I thought, he's going to be shot, or he's going to lose. Because those were my two experiences. And/or, the public will take him away and we'll be left, the kids and I left here. So my experience with politics was so traumatic that that erupted in me. So I was like, please don't go and do that. So it wasn't that I was just like, oh, I don't want you to have your dream. It was that there was a lot of unresolved feelings that no one had spoken to me about when he broached the subject.

• 26:02Oprah Winfrey?

  I remember you shared with me once, was it your Uncle Teddy? Or was it your father who had run for office? And how all the people around and the campaign, and it's hundreds of people. And then when you lose,

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:15Oprah Winfrey?

  you go home and there's, it's empty.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  And well, both of them obviously ran and both of them lost. Uh, when they ran for national office. But my dad was on the ticket with McGovern. And I'll never forget, you know, standing on that stage with him. And they lost so overwhelmingly. And I felt so ashamed that he had lost so big. And then when we drove home, you saw all the Secret Service unplugging all the phones, locking up the trailers. And in the morning, they were all gone. All the people that had been part of the campaign, all the

• 26:49Oprah Winfrey?

  For months.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  For months, just gone, like, like that overnight. And it was an experience that I can almost call up if I close my eyes. It was so dramatic that I was like, oh, I am never going to go through this again. And by the way, I was so angry. I was so angry that Richard Nixon was viewed as this incredible victor. And my father was viewed as this incredible loser. And I felt that I did not want to be in a business that, you know, pigeonholed people like that deemed winner, loser.

• 27:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  And, um,

• 27:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Especially when you understood your father's value.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 27:26Oprah Winfrey?

  This is the man who created the Peace Corps.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Right. And who was viewed and what was said about him was so contrary to who he was. And so contrary to what he was talking about.

• 27:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Could you imagine now?

• 27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I just was like, I don't want to have anything to do with this business. And so I felt that Arnold was the furthest thing I could find from politics. And so I was like, oh, I'm gonna go do my own thing, follow my own path. I'm gonna go into journalism, which was also kind of contrary to my family. So I was like, I'm gonna carve out everything differently. And then, of course, you know, you find yourself exactly where you started. And then you have to go, okay, how did I get here? What am I actually running from?

• 28:07Oprah Winfrey?

  You say too, that you have to admit that the thing that you had not wanted.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Turned out to be one of the best things for you. Because being First Lady of California allowed you an opportunity to reach and have a voice that could help change in a way that you hadn't before.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. I mean, it turned out, obviously, I lost my job as soon as Arnold won. NBC called and said, you know, you're out. So conflict of interest, it's hard to think of that today, right? When you think about, they're like, one, you know, a weekend, they're like, oh, no, this is a conflict of interest, you gotta get out. But it turned out to be an incredible gift to be the First Lady of California, because I made lifelong friendships. I was able to meet, you know, so many people up and down the state.

• 28:50Oprah Winfrey?

  You had the best women's conference going yet to this date.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was incredible experience. And we raised so much money for so many programs and put people through school and did so many great things and I met so many great people. And you're right, it allowed me to speak on my own behalf, really. And obviously, I was representing Arnold at the time. But I had been a journalist where you don't really have your own voice, right? And then I had grown up in a family where I didn't feel like I had my own voice. So being First Lady was the first time for me where I felt like I could speak out on what I wanted to speak. I could speak about women, I could speak about domestic violence, I could speak about women entrepreneurs. I had this big women's conference. I was able to speak about Alzheimer's, because my dad had just been diagnosed. And I had a platform that I had never had.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Before, and it enabled me to actually use all of the things that I had been raised with. So it brought my political kind of sense was there. My journalism was put to good use. My curiosity, my creativity, all was able to be used in that one specific job. And people don't really know what a first lady does. And each state is obviously different. We only think of, I think, oftentimes the first lady of the United States. But there are incredible first ladies going on in every state.

• 30:10Oprah Winfrey?

  And they were safe.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  First partners and, you know, first gentlemen now. But you can have tremendous impact in that role, even though it's, you're kind of part of a team. But it turned out to be something that, obviously, I didn't want, but turned out to be an incredible gift for me. So I have to thank Arnold for that. I have to thank the people of California for that. And it turned out to be a joy, really, for me.

• 30:33Oprah Winfrey?

  So let's talk about the other breaking open for you. The breaking open moment was the divorce.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Unquestionably. Your husband had a sexual relationship with somebody who was working inside your home, and a child resulted from that relationship. You were betrayed. And you write poems here about your feelings about that. And in the introduction, you write, you say, "As I sat on my hotel room floor in the dark, terrified and alone, with tears streaming down my face, I thought to myself, Maria, this doesn't have to be the end of you. It can't be the end of you. Make it a new beginning of you." And you write that it took you many years to get to that point, to recover, and that, and I'm, that's why I couldn't believe that you're putting this all in writing,

• 31:25Oprah Winfrey?

  because I know this to be true. You literally tried every method of healing anybody has ever heard of.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did.

• 31:33Oprah Winfrey?

  You did.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  I did, and you're right. It did take me a really long time, and you were there.

• 31:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Mm.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  On the hotel floor.

• 31:40Oprah Winfrey?

  On the hotel floor.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I really wanted to pick myself up. It's still an emotional thing for me. But I wanted to pick myself up. I wanted to be more open. I wanted to come out from behind whatever padded door I was living behind. I wanted to know how that had happened to me. I wanted to know who I could be moving forward. I wanted to show my daughters and my boys that I could hold myself up, that I could put my shoulders back, that I could heal. I did not know how to heal. I had just started going to therapy at the end of my marriage, so I had not been someone who had been in therapy. I had not been someone who

• 32:25Speaker 01

  was on the healing path of life. And I went all in.

• 32:29Oprah Winfrey?

  You were just being a mom with four kids and going through the thing and that.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Well, I was being a daughter. I was being a journalist. I was being a mother. I was playing all the roles that I think so many people play. And it's a lot, right? Everybody that I talked to who's trying to raise kids, take care of parents, work themselves, be a good wife. You're not really thinking about a lot of other things.

• 32:54Oprah Winfrey?

  I remember the night that the story about Arnold's betrayal was going to go public. You had known for a long time, but the night that it was going to go public was the night that I was ending the Oprah show in 2011. And I have never seen a friend like you because on the night that you knew that that was going to be going public, you came and you showed up for me. You showed up for me. And I don't know how you did that. Because I would, you weren't even in your right mind. Were you even present in your body? You walk

• 33:37Oprah Winfrey?

  out on the stage and you hugged me and Gail hugged me. And I remember everybody cheering because the news had just come out that morning.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't know it was gonna go public that day because I flew to Chicago to be with you. And when I landed, I heard.

• 33:53Oprah Winfrey?

  I remember you called me.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  I heard. And I was there with my daughters.

• 33:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Your two daughters.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  And.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  But I wanted to be there for you because you had been there for me. And you are one of my best friends in the world. And so I was there and then I got on a plane and left.

• 34:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  And but that was important to me. Showing up in my life for people that I love is a big thing for me.

• 34:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Up next in my conversation with women's health advocate, journalist, mother and grandmother, Maria Shriver. She explains how she got to a place of forgiveness and healing with her ex-husband, Arnold Schwarzenegger. Stay with us. Welcome back to my special conversation with one of my longest and most precious friends, Maria Shriver. For the first time, she opens up many aspects of her extraordinary life in her new book of poetry, I Am Maria. She has some wonderful advice on forgiveness that I hope can help many of you. And then you write about in the public square, the humiliation and shame that filled your soul. Can you read that?

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. The public square. Shame filled my body. Humiliation filled my soul. Every inch of my being crumbled. I stood humbled, disgraced, mortified in the public square. I heard the whispers. How could she not have known, not have seen? She must have. She couldn't have not. Poor her, poor them. I could feel the stares of pity of scorn. I tried to meet them, but eyes turned away. I stood in the public square, a mere shadow of my former self, until I thought, no, no, this is not how it's going to go. I'm going to rebuild. I'm going to discard. I'm going to stand in all that I am and carry on. I'm going to move forward.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Make no mistake, I hear you. I see you. But you'll see, your whispers have nothing on me.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  And I did, you know, I really wanted to move forward. And I wanted to have a good relationship with Arnold. I wanted my children to see me moving forward.

• 36:06Oprah Winfrey?

  In spite of the shame and the betrayal, you wanted a good relationship?

• 36:10Speaker 01

  I did, because I had been with Arnold since I was 21. He's the father of my children. I wanted to be able to go to our kids' weddings when they have kids. I wanted to be the person that could be in the room and everybody would be okay.

• 36:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, this is what's-

• 36:29Speaker 01

  And that was really important to me.

• 36:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, this is what's so powerful about all the poems that you've written. And also, so many times over the years, and on this podcast, we talk about forgiveness and how you forgive for yourself. And you write, in the section on healing, you write these three lines. "If I forgive me, I can forgive him. I can forgive her. And so it is all forgiven. We are all free to go."

• 37:03Oprah Winfrey?

  I mean, what did it take for you to get to "we are all free to go"?

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Well, I think, you know, one of my shamans or therapists said to me, you know, before you can talk about forgiving another person, you have to look at forgiving yourself. And you have to go back and look at your own life and think about, you know, how hard you've been on yourself and how judgmental you've been of yourself and begin the process of forgiving yourself.

• 37:28Oprah Winfrey?

  That's really some elevated thinking, because most people in the midst of betrayal are just trying to get through the next day.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's a long process.

• 37:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  You know, it's a long process, but I think if you begin to think about, you know, how tough you've been on yourself, how judgmental you've been on yourself, how hard you've been on yourself.

• 37:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Because did you go through what a lot of women go through? I'm asking this, but I know the answer. Did you go through, "What else I could have done? It could have been better, and I wasn't a good enough wife, and if I had done this differently and that differently"?

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you go through that?

• 38:01Speaker 01

  For years.

• 38:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. And, "What did I miss"? And to, I think, Arnold's credit, he's like, "Nothing". There's nothing you could have done better. And of course, I kept going around and around, you know? And I think that that's normal. And I think it took me a really long time to forgive myself,

• 38:23Speaker 01

  to forgive the whole situation.

• 38:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you have to forgive yourself for also what you didn't see? Because I think one of the things, one of the things you talk about in The Whispers, one of the things that was so loudly whispered, and I would get so frustrated when people would say this to me. Well, you know, that's what the Kennedy women do.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'd love to rectify that.

• 38:44Oprah Winfrey?

  That's what the Kennedy women do.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Kennedy women, first of all, I'm a Shriver.

• 38:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  I'm Maria.

• 38:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  But this idea of, quote, "the Kennedy women."

• 38:54Oprah Winfrey?

  The Kennedy women.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Kennedy women are strong. Kennedy women keep the family together. Kennedy, so many of those kids, whether it was Ethel or Jackie, were single mothers raising their kids. So to any woman who's been a single-

• 39:08Oprah Winfrey?

  But you've heard that, this idea that-

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Of course, I've heard it. I've heard everything.

• 39:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, you've heard everything.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  I've heard everything. And I'd say 90% of what I've heard, 95% is never true. And I think I grew up with that also, like, to pay no attention to what you hear about anybody. So, and I think, you know, that had something to do with how I ended up where I ended up, because I never paid any attention to what I heard. So I think that that always drove me crazy to be referred to that way because it wasn't true.

• 39:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Absolutely.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  And I considered myself, and do consider myself, a strong woman. And I have met so many women, and I've met many men, right, who go through heartbreak, wherever it is in life, and find a healing path forward. And that's the conversation I'm interested in having with people. Because I think it's, there's nobody who gets out of life without heartbreak. There's nobody who can stand at 70 and 80 and feel healed or feel like that they're in the healing journey, who doesn't try to process forgiveness, who doesn't go down that path. And that's the- That's the point of this book is for not to talk about my own story as much as kind

• 40:27Speaker 01

  of our universal heartbreak. And that's a way into conversations with other people. I think Arnold and I have a great relationship now, and I think there will always be a love there, right? It's, as you said, I met him when I was 21 years old. He's the father of my children. We're grandparents together. And I don't want to have, you know, hate. I don't want to have anger in my body towards another person. I don't want that in my life at all. I don't. And I don't, I want-

• 41:02Oprah Winfrey?

  There's so many events where you absolutely have to be together.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I didn't want my kids to have separate birthday parties. I didn't want them to stress about when they were going to get married, stress about when they would have a child. I didn't want what happened between their dad and me to, you know, ruin their lives. It already causes a rupture in their life, right? But I wanted to model for them a new way forward. And I hope they don't get divorced because I believe in marriage. But I want them to know that you can do it well. It takes time.

• 41:37Oprah Winfrey?

  I think that's very rare, and it takes a special kind of person to do that and to want to do that and to not to use what had happened to you to turn the children against their father.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:51Oprah Winfrey?

  And not for one second did you do that.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  No, and I'm not saying, you know, every situation is different. So I think, you know, there are many people who can't be in the room, and I respect that. There are many people who don't want to be in the room.

• 42:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  And I respect that.

• 42:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Respect that too.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  I respect that too, who don't want to be at the same birthday party, who don't want to have anything to do with the other person. I understand that. And people have told me- Unbelievable stories and you know have come up to me a lot about the ends of their marriage.

• 42:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Marriages and so I think everybody has their own path and I would never say that my way is the right way. I can only say that this has been right for me and it has been right for my children.

• 42:37Oprah Winfrey?

  You talked about the two of you having grandchildren together.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Your grandchildren call you Mama G.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:42Oprah Winfrey?

  How is being a Mama G different than being a mama?

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Well, you know, you have more time.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  You're they're not living with you, right? You're not in charge, which I'm told repeatedly. So it's I just play and have fun and I want to help my daughter. I didn't live in the same city as my mother when I had children and I really regret that actually. I I see how wonderful it is for Catherine and Chris that they have their whole family around and are together all the time. So I have a play date, you know, myself with my grandchildren and I just I love being a grand. I feel so blessed.

• 43:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Bringing them here, the last time you brought them here.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:23Oprah Winfrey?

  There's a video of you and Patrick that went viral this year. It's where he's telling you that he got the part in White Lotus.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  You got it.

• 43:33Oprah Winfrey?

  What's it like watching your son have a moment like this?

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Well, I'm so proud of him. I'm really proud of all of the kids, you know that.

• 43:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  And he has worked so hard. He's been in acting classes every single week for like 10, 11 years. And he really wanted to do his acting on his own. You know, there's all this nipple baby, nipple baby. And he specifically didn't want to go and get a job in one of his dad's films. He wanted to do little films. He wanted to do independent films. He wanted to find his own way. He goes out, you know, you see what he that you see the role he got, but hundreds he didn't get. You know, every week he's like not getting a job, not getting a job, not getting a job. So when he said, you know, I'm gonna audition for White Lotus, I mean, he goes, but don't talk to me about it. Because you know, I probably won't get it. Everybody's auditioning. For White Lotus and I was like, oh, OK. And then he never said a word about it.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  So I just, you know, I didn't want to say anything because I figured he didn't get the job because he doesn't get most of the jobs, right? And so when he said it, he said it in a restaurant on vacation. I screamed, so like you said, like, how did the tears? I was just beside myself because I was like, I was just so happy for him. I was so excited that he was going to get this opportunity and I was just.

• 44:55Oprah Winfrey?

  That's why that video blew up because it was so natural. It was so off the, everybody knew that that was a real, real moment.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Because I could see he and his fiance, who had just gotten engaged, were kind of whispering. And I thought, what's going on? What's going on? They're like, no, we don't want to say anything. I'm like, they're pregnant. Oh, my God, they're going to be pregnant before the wedding, you know? They're like, no, no, no, we're not pregnant. I'm like, well, what is it? You can't just sit here and whisper in front of me. And then when he said that, I was just like, huh! You know, I was like levitated off and Catherine started crying and she didn't even know what we were talking about. She didn't even know he had auditioned because he didn't want anybody to see. She's like, what are we crying about? And I was like, Patrick got a role in White Lotus. And I didn't know anything, I still don't know anything about the role.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Cougars.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Hey, hey. We saw you guys on the boat earlier.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  You know, and Mike White, who's the creator of that whole series.

• 45:57Oprah Winfrey?

  It's just so fun to watch.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  It's so fun and his character, I have to keep now saying like, he's not the character. He's not that guy. But he's, it's a great moment, but he also has his feet firmly planted on the ground that he knows, you know, this is a moment and then you'll have to go out and get another job and then you'll have to go out and get another job and then it'll go like this. And I think he saw his dad go through that. He's seen people he knows and respect, you know, they have a moment, then they don't. And then they have a moment and then they don't. And what do you have in your life that keeps you in those moments when you're not having a moment? Do you have your family? Do you have other interests? Do you have faith? Do you have a gratitude practice? Do you have friends that love you for you?

• 46:39Speaker 01

  These are the things that I try to stress to the kids all the time. And I think he saw his dad go through that. And I think he has a pretty good head on his shoulders, but he also knows that, you know, it's a long road. He's young.

• 46:53Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, you have done such a beautiful job raising your children. I mean, I know you have all of these different roles, but your primary role,

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:03Oprah Winfrey?

  even as your friend, as I see, has been that you have been the mother that raised generous and kind children, which is a very hard thing to do in today's world.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Well, I wanted to raise kids. It was the priority. And it continues to be my priority. I wanted them first and foremost to feel loved. I wanted them to feel like they were the priority. I didn't, I wanted them.

• 47:27Oprah Winfrey?

  They do. There's no reason why they shouldn't. I've seen it over and over.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  That was really important to me, that they felt loved, that they knew what love was, that their being wasn't less important than maybe what their dad was doing or what their larger family was doing.

• 47:43Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  That they were the priority and that they were loved for who they were, not for what they did. I certainly got the lesson that love was attached to accomplishment. And so I wanted to do the opposite of that. There were many things that my mother and father did that I wanted and did emulate, but there were many things that I wanted to do differently.

• 48:06Oprah Winfrey?

  What are the best lessons? What is the thing that your mother gave to you that you feel that you're passing on to your children?

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Strength. She gave me incredible strength. She gave me incredible faith. She gave me the lesson of family, the importance that family is everything. And she would always say, "You can have an argument with your brothers, but you cannot be forever mad at your brothers." You know, they are what you have. And she showed me her brothers and her sisters were her best friends. And she showed me that. And she showed me even, you know, I remember when my Uncle Teddy got divorced, she stayed in relationship with my Aunt Joan. She stayed in relationship with my Aunt Jackie. She stayed in the family, keeping the family together, laughing with her family and prioritizing her family. And she gave me that.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  She gave me, she gave me so much. She gave me a firm belief that I was here for something larger than myself.

• 49:12Oprah Winfrey?

  And you write a poem about the fact that It was a poem in a tribute, the fact that you were able to explore and touch your vulnerability and femininity in a way that she was not allowed, or certainly didn't feel that she could.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Never. And I have such, I remember when she was dying, I took her hand and, you know, my mother wasn't somebody that touched you and she didn't hug you, or that just wasn't her way. Neither was it my grandmother's way. And I remember taking her hand and saying, you know, you did such an incredible job. You know, I love you and you can go because my brothers and I were connected, we're tight, we're good. You did a great job. And I want you to know that. And, you know, she died like 24 hours later. But as you know, she was really everything to me. And her, her voice was tough. Her voice was tough, but I know it was tough on her, too.

• 50:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Now you know that more than ever.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Now I know that. I know how tough she was on herself.

• 50:15Oprah Winfrey?

  And for 10 years, your dad struggled with Alzheimer's. I just so appreciate the poem that you did for over a decade, when you watched him descend into Alzheimer's.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:26Oprah Winfrey?

  And you write about this in, in the piece called "Deep Inside." Can you read that?

• 50:32Speaker 01

  "Who knows what lurks within? The unknowing, the knowing, all are one. Who are you?" he says. "I'm Maria, your daughter." And the light within his eyes flashes. A smile crosses his face. "Oh, wow," says he. "I always wanted a daughter named Maria."

• 50:52Speaker 01

  That's all true. You know, he'd be constantly saying to me, "Who are you?" And I'd say, "I'm your daughter, Maria." He's like, "Oh, you're my daughter?" And I go, "Yeah, I'm your daughter. I'm Maria."

• 51:05Oprah Winfrey?

  What was that like for you to watch him to just

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Mind blowing.

• 51:09Oprah Winfrey?

  disappear like that?

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, mind blowing. I use that word. Sometimes people don't like that word associated with Alzheimer's because, you know, your brain is going. But it's a mind-blowing disease, which is why I've really spent 20-plus years trying to find a cure for it, trying to educate people about it. I started nonprofits, I've done documentaries, I've done everything you can do to try to find a cure for Alzheimer's, to try to help other families going through it.

• 51:36Oprah Winfrey?

  So when you were the person who I've never had been, talked to anybody who I knew as well as I do you about a family member going through it. When they first start to not to know who you are, do you feel that they are still who they are?

• 51:55Speaker 01

  No. And that's, I think I learned from my children. You know, it was a struggle for me and it's different for parents. You know, it's different for spouses. They have their own journey. That's what I've learned is that when you, everybody in a family has a different journey with the person who has Alzheimer's, but you want them to be who they were. And you can't, you know, it was very hard for me to see my father, who was the smartest human being I had ever met, playing with puzzles that my two and three year olds were playing with. I just, I couldn't compute that. It just made no sense to me at all. And my kids were really helpful to me. They were like, just accept him for who he is.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  You know, he wants to play a puzzle, let him play a puzzle. If he wants to just sit there in the yard and not speak, just sit in the yard. And so that was really a challenge for me. It was a challenge for me to watch him become a different person. It was a challenge for me to watch him not be who he was. And I think for everybody who has a loved one going through Alzheimer's, it's a really challenging disease. It's incredibly expensive. It's spiritually draining. It's emotionally draining. It's exhausting. And it has yet to become kind of a national priority, which I've tried and many other people have tried to make it so.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  And the numbers are astounding, the amount of people that are getting it. And we know so much more about it today than we did when my dad-

• 53:26Oprah Winfrey?

  And women, it's more prevalent than-

• 53:28Speaker 01

  It's way more prevalent with women. And yet we have no research into women's brains or women's bodies or women's health journeys. And I'm trying to change that with my Women's Alzheimer's Movement is to really try to understand particularly what's happening in women's minds, brains at midlife.

• 53:45Oprah Winfrey?

  You write though in I Am Maria that- You sometimes still struggle to be truly at peace with yourself.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Did writing I Am Maria bring you a sense of peace?

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Yes, I find myself in many days being at peace, right? But it's, and it's a total inside job. So some days I'm kinder to myself than others. Some days I feel better about myself. I don't feel like totally healed or I got to the mountaintop.

• 54:19Oprah Winfrey?

  You don't?

• 54:19Speaker 01

  No, on a given day I can. But and then like maybe two days later, I hear my mother's voice like move it along. Let's go, what do you do?

• 54:27Oprah Winfrey?

  I don't want to hear a yip out of you.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't want to hear, you know? And so I think it's a balance. It's a balance of understanding what I want in my life, where I am in my life. I make time in my life now for going and having fun, going and looking at the leaves.

• 54:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Maria and I are strength training together at the gym.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  That's right, we looked at the leaves together.

• 54:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, we looked at the leaves.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Those are things I wouldn't never have done.

• 54:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  When my mother was alive, because I would have been

• 54:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Too scared to tell her.

• 54:56Oprah Winfrey?

  That's right.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  I'm doing nothing but looking at the leaves with Oprah. I would have been, she would have been like, what?

• 55:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, remember that night, somebody, you were talking about a friend who was going to take a vacation.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 55:07Oprah Winfrey?

  With themselves.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:08Oprah Winfrey?

  And your father was like, who ever heard of such a thing?

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 55:11Oprah Winfrey?

  And you were like, I didn't say I was doing it.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like afraid, right? So I feel, you know, that I'm now much kinder to myself. I'm kinder to other people. I'm more open with myself. I'm gentler with myself.

• 55:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Do you think you understand now, I ask this question often on this podcast. Do you think you understand now, have a greater understanding now of what it means to have a well-lived life?

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 55:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  And I'm in it. I am in it 100% and that's my goal to be, as I say, in the open field. I call it a wildly authentic, deeply meaningful life.

• 55:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, I was just going to say you end with the piece titled The Open Field. And you say, I'll meet you there.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:56Oprah Winfrey?

  And what I believe, can you hand me the book, please? What I believe is that all of these, all of these beautiful. Stories you tell through your poetry are gonna open up the hearts of other people to see themselves.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hope so. That's why I did it. I wrote it because I wanted people to know that their heartbreak does not define them, that they can survive, that they can heal, and that they can find their way home to themselves. That they can be a better, more evolved version of themselves, that they can look at their life kind of with a deep appreciation, all of it, everything that happened to them. That they can look at the people in their life with love, with acceptance, with, you know, this great appreciation. That's kind of where I find myself.

• 56:43Oprah Winfrey?

  And the open field is what? It represents what to you?

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Well, the open field for me represents, you know, it's a riff off of Roomy, you know, where I'll meet you there. It means I'm out beyond shame. I'm out beyond the public square. I'm out beyond guilt. I'm out beyond fear. And I'm standing there with people who love me, who accept me, who love me for just being Maria. They don't love me for the family I came from, for the job that I'm doing. They love me for me. And I'm standing there, I hope, with my children who have love in their lives, who have partners with them, with my friends who have been there with me the whole way through.

• 57:18Oprah Winfrey?

  On the hotel room floor.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  On the hotel room floor and up.

• 57:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  And I'm there and I'm like, wow, this was one hell of a life. This was one hell of a ride. And I, all of it, the good, the bad, the ugly, all of it, and all of it made me me today. And I feel more at home in myself today than I have ever felt in my entire life. I understand myself better. I love my parents. It's such a deep level. I love my brothers. I love my friends. I love my kids. I'm grateful for every step of the way. And I'm hopeful that I have more years to come where I'm gonna do things I've never done and have experiences I've never had.

• 58:05Oprah Winfrey?

  The fact that you have written a book of poetry, Maria.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. Could you believe it?

• 58:09Oprah Winfrey?

  This is something you have never done. I thank you, and I know that so many people are gonna find comfort in it. And I know you would appreciate this, because you and I both love Mary Oliver.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:18Oprah Winfrey?

  And I have Mary Oliver's poems.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  The Journey.

• 58:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Her book, Devotion.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 58:23Oprah Winfrey?

  The Devotion book, By My Bedside.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:26Oprah Winfrey?

  And now this will go by my bedside.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 58:28Oprah Winfrey?

  I am Maria.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  You know that, you know that you sent me to go, I was the guest editor, I don't know if you remember this, for a month of poetry, for a poetry edition of O Magazine.

• 58:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, I do, I do, I do.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  And I went down, I had become friends with Mary Oliver, and I went for O Mag.

• 58:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, and you interviewed Mary Oliver.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  And I interviewed Mary Oliver for the magazine, down in Florida. And when I was first lady, I had been trying to get her to come to the women's conference. And she's like, "I don't do that, I don't do that, stop calling me, stop bothering me."

• 58:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  I said, "But The Journey, the poem The Journey, it changed my life." And it got me thinking I could write poetry, she said, "Do your thing, I'm not coming for you." And I went to meet her, I went to listen to her, read her poetry. I went and introduced myself, and I said, "You know, I'm your biggest fan, please." And she's like, "Okay, just stop with me already, stop bothering me." And she came to the women's conference, she read The Journey. She goes, "I'll read one poem for you." I said, "Please read The Journey, because The Journey changed my life." And it made me think, "What do I want to do with my one wild and precious life?" And I knew, when I was on the floor of the hotel, my one wild precious life was not ending there. My one wild and precious life was gonna be in the open field.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  And so, when I told her I was writing poetry, and I read some of it to her, she said, "You're gonna, you're gonna publish a book of poems, Carry On." And.

• 59:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Mary Oliver said that to you?

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Mary Oliver, so Mary Oliver and Emily Dickinson, you know, "I've got a lantern, and I'm out there looking for myself." I'm like, "Yeah, me too, Emily, me too." So those women, really, with their words, poetry changed my life. Reading other women's poems and men's poems, too, changed my life. And I'm hoping that these poems will help people look within their own lives, and will assure them.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  That they have the strength that they need within to carry on.

• 1:00:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Maria, you've got Americans reading poetry. That is a very big deal.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  That's a big deal.

• 1:00:30Oprah Winfrey?

  That's a big deal. Maria's book is called I Am Maria: My Reflections and Poems on Heartbreak, Healing, and Finding Your Way Home. It's available April 1st, anywhere you buy books. And Maria reads the audio version. I thank you to Lilly Direct for presenting today's episode. And I want to personally thank you, all our dear listeners, for joining us here. Talk to you next week. I am Maria. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.