It's Very Hard to Live with a Saint

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? Barely a year into marriage, they're trapped in a cycle of explosive conflict. She can do no right, and he can do no wrong. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:26Speaker 00

  This next session briefly describes an instance of domestic violence. It may not be appropriate for all listeners. Please take care while listening.

• 0:38Speaker 01

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• 1:56Speaker 03

  I thought marrying somebody from Latin America would be easy. Even though we speak in Spanish, it feels like two different languages.

• 2:06Esther Perel?

  He's Colombian, she's Mexican. He's nineteen years older than her. He never thought he would get married, he had given up on marriage. But now they are married for a year.

• 2:18Speaker 03

  Being married to him, it started opening this Pandora box that I didn't know I had.

• 2:24Speaker 05

  She has more explosive ways of reacting to things and I'm always kind of bringing her back like, "Come on, give her a moment."

• 2:33Speaker 03

  And I know that I hurt him, you know, like verbally I can be very abusive.

• 2:38Esther Perel?

  They devolve into rigid, predictable, high conflict. And so they went from heaven to hell very fast.

• 2:46Speaker 05

  I do not speak with that person when she's extremely upset and explosive. I just become quiet instead of continuing a conversation where very bad words come out and it just becomes really verbally violent. For me, I'm like, "How can I communicate with her?"

• 3:04Esther Perel?

  Something about rigidity and the immediacy of these types of negative escalations lets me know that there is a lot more reciprocity in the patterns than any of the two of them allude to. And so we're gonna go digging.

• 3:30Esther Perel?

  Encantada conocerles.

• 3:32Speaker 06

  Gracias.

• 3:32Esther Perel?

  Gracias. Y vamos a hacerlo en inglés, ¿no? Sí.

• 3:35Speaker 06

  Of course, for sure.

• 3:38Esther Perel?

  But if there are things that are better said in Spanish because your heart lives in Spanish, then we switch and I'll translate. Don't worry about that.

• 3:50Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 3:51Esther Perel?

  Okay? You see, we have nasty fights. From one to ten, how bad?

• 3:59Speaker 06

  For me, they're like fifteen.

• 4:05Esther Perel?

  Tell me a little bit more about you first, so that I have a sense. And then we'll go to the scene of the crime.

• 4:11Speaker 06

  Okay, okay, good.

• 4:15Speaker 06

  I am nineteen years older than she is. So that, that there's a different way of seeing the world just because of that.

• 4:23Esther Perel?

  How did you meet?

• 4:24Speaker 06

  We met in a place where we did meditation. And I've always had that curiosity to kind of find the deeper meaning of life in me anyway. Like, I'm very noble. Yeah, noble in the sense of childlike, almost innocent.

• 4:43Speaker 06

  A good heart, I feel that I have a good heart.

• 4:47Speaker 06

  And because of that, I feel sometimes people might take advantage of that. As I'm like, I see them.

• 4:53Esther Perel?

  And what drew you to her?

• 4:55Speaker 06

  For the first time in my life, I felt that I had matured in the way I am with the person. I'm seeing this person because of what she is, not what she represents. That laundry list was gone.

• 5:07Esther Perel?

  What was on the list?

• 5:09Speaker 06

  On the list was, there's a certain look, there's a certain level of education.

• 5:14Esther Perel?

  So that if she was also extraordinaire, then you would become?

• 5:20Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 5:20Esther Perel?

  What?

• 5:22Speaker 06

  I would look good.

• 5:25Esther Perel?

  Tell me a little bit more about your background in Colombia.

• 5:30Speaker 06

  Overprotected, I think.

• 5:32Esther Perel?

  By whom?

• 5:32Speaker 06

  By my mom.

• 5:34Esther Perel?

  And dad?

• 5:36Speaker 06

  My dad, very noble, a good, mannered person, the kind of person that never fights. But a bit absent in the process of raising the kids. It was always my mother. I've always felt that the strong women in my family, they're so strong and they've pretty much sucked the man's brain into nothingness. And I kind of feel my dad lost his ability to, just to be a man.

• 6:02Esther Perel?

  So you're making sure?

• 6:03Speaker 06

  I'm making sure that.

• 6:05Esther Perel?

  With her, that your brain doesn't get sucked out of you?

• 6:08Speaker 06

  That I don't lose my identity, that I don't, do not suck my brain. This is mine, can't touch, you know? I mean, I remember a conversation.

• 6:15Esther Perel?

  But hold on a second. Does that mean that in part, when you respond to your wife?

• 6:25Esther Perel?

  There's a part of you that says, "I'm not gonna let you do to me what my mother did to my dad."

• 6:31Speaker 06

  Most likely, yeah.

• 6:33Esther Perel?

  And I'm gonna stand up.

• 6:35Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 6:37Esther Perel?

  And what do you say? When you're in your fighting mode with your flag defending?

• 6:42Speaker 06

  I say nothing, which gets her more upset.

• 6:45Esther Perel?

  What do you say inside of you? To her, you say, "You ain't gonna move me, you ain't gonna push me, "you ain't gonna get an inch of me." But inside, you say what?

• 6:56Speaker 06

  Oh, she's acting up. She's saying crazy stuff, she'll calm down. She's making stuff up that is not going anywhere.

• 7:06Esther Perel?

  So it's the good old women are hysterical?

• 7:10Speaker 06

  Yeah, yes.

• 7:11Esther Perel?

  You're smiling.

• 7:14Speaker 06

  Yes, but yes, yes, I would say that. I go in that stereotype.

• 7:19Esther Perel?

  Continue.

• 7:22Speaker 06

  You're not reasoning. So I cannot have a conversation with that. And then another thing that really gets me is when her language changes into something that is very violent. I'm not used to that. I don't know how to handle that.

• 7:40Speaker 03

  When I say cabron, you know, like, because when you fight in your language, you let it go. You know, so like, there's like a release when I say it. It's more for me than for him. And I totally forget that it's gonna hurt him in some way. I just like let my anger go.

• 8:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, for me, the strong words have, for some reason, a huge impact. Like, I feel that it escalates into a place that is...

• 8:08Esther Perel?

  Well, part of it is you also think of yourself as so good. "I'm such a good person, I don't deserve this." You're indignant. Something like that?

• 8:18Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 8:19Esther Perel?

  Say it in your own words.

• 8:21Speaker 06

  I'm good, and I'm a nice person. I understand my shortcomings, but I don't deserve to be treated with that language.

• 8:34Esther Perel?

  The way he describes the cycle, the escalation,

• 8:40Esther Perel?

  leaves him out of the equation. It's as if he's not an active participant here, and she's doing all of this on her own. In a dance where you have one person who attacks and one person who stone walls, or one person who withholds or withdraws, and one person who pursues. It's very important to understand that the person who withholds contributes in intensifying the pursuit of the other, and the person who pursues intensifies the need of the other to stone wall and to retreat. Each person is co-creating the other. That is the essence of a dance, especially in negative escalations.

• 9:27Esther Perel?

  You close up, you say nothing,

• 9:32Esther Perel?

  and the less you say, and the more her requests turn into protests,

• 9:40Esther Perel?

  and you kind of wait for her to calm down on her own, without engaging.

• 9:47Speaker 06

  Right, and she normally does. She does that for me.

• 9:50Esther Perel?

  She does what for you?

• 9:52Speaker 06

  Comes back. After that tsunami of extravagance of things, she normally comes back down and... I could easily go to sleep, and slip it off, and then we'll talk tomorrow. She would not allow that ever to happen. We might fight until 3 a.m. She would not let it subside until some sort of communication gets to a place where we can go to sleep, giving each other a hug, which is beautiful. So I kind of wait until all of that happens.

• 10:25Esther Perel?

  So she does the dumping and she does the repairing?

• 10:28Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 10:28Esther Perel?

  And you? Just a passive participant?

• 10:35Esther Perel?

  I mean, it's very interesting. It's like she runs the whole show, and you're kind of almost an audience.

• 10:44Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 10:44Esther Perel?

  You watch her lose it, and then you watch her regain it, and then you thank her for doing it so nicely. But she does everything.

• 10:52Speaker 06

  Well, I try to, I try to express my point of view. And I've tried to say, okay, let's, let's talk about this. This is how I feel, but it's just doesn't go.

• 11:04Esther Perel?

  Because that's not what it's about.

• 11:06Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:06Esther Perel?

  You, you still think that it's about expressing points of views. It's like opening a small umbrella in the middle of a storm.

• 11:14Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm. Right.

• 11:17Esther Perel?

  And you're trying to open a small umbrella and have a rational discussion in the middle of something that has completely dysregulated.

• 11:24Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 11:24Esther Perel?

  It doesn't work.

• 11:25Speaker 06

  Right.

• 11:26Esther Perel?

  So, that is gonna have to change. Because I know, when you come in here, you probably think what has to change is her.

• 11:35Speaker 06

  No, I understand that I, I'm a big part of the process.

• 11:39Esther Perel?

  Good.

• 11:40Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 11:40Esther Perel?

  That makes us move a lot faster.

• 11:45Speaker 06

  No, for sure, I wouldn't be here otherwise, I know that.

• 11:47Esther Perel?

  Alright, let me hear from you a little bit. So you're in the meditation room and you see this

• 11:53Speaker 03

  Ah.

• 11:54Esther Perel?

  man, and what draws you to him?

• 11:57Speaker 03

  Uh, we, we started as friends. And, uh, like the deep conversations, and he had no clue. Like, I had to do, like, all the job of seduction, you know? Like, he kept saying that he was already, uh, love was not for him, he wasn't gonna be with someone.

• 12:14Esther Perel?

  Oh, he was doing that part?

• 12:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 12:16Esther Perel?

  There must be some ballad about that in Spanish too, no?

• 12:20Speaker 06

  Oh, for sure, there's plenty of those.

• 12:24Speaker 06

  Where you just drink a lot and listen to, uh, boleros and, yeah.

• 12:28Esther Perel?

  Yeah, some nice bolero that just kind of, with a syrup of, of self-pity.

• 12:35Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah, no, there's one called La Coparrota, you should listen to that one.

• 12:38Esther Perel?

  Uh-huh, and it says?

• 12:39Speaker 06

  It's violent.

• 12:40Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 12:41Speaker 06

  Give me the broken glass because I'm gonna cut my

• 12:44Esther Perel?

  Cut my veins?

• 12:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, all the songs, oh, but that, this one, the lyrics, oh my god. Yeah, I grew up listening to that, yeah. That one, there it is. That's it.

• 12:59Speaker 06

  Oh my goodness, that song.

• 13:03Esther Perel?

  That's the man you married.

• 13:11Esther Perel?

  He knows exactly what I'm talking about. He knows exactly which song to bring up in the Latin blues repertoire. Of the man who's been treated unkindly by life, of the man who did everything and the woman abandoned him in the songs, right? This is a script that he has learned in his childhood, but also that is part of the cultural tradition that he comes from. By putting it in the larger context of a character, it's taken out of pathology and put back into cultural legacy.

• 13:48Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 14:01Speaker 02

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• 15:44Esther Perel?

  And for you?

• 15:48Speaker 03

  For me, my upbringing is that it was the opposite of his household. My parents would fight in front of me. They would yell, they would scream, they would shake each other. There was a lot of banging, a lot of, you know, hitting. Like, my mom would hit me a lot, my dad would defend me. So it was like a whole Mexican telenovela that would give you, like, material for years. It was like a lot of pain. And I had to put myself together many times. But I always wanted to see myself in the eyes of a man and to put my value in our relationship.

• 16:29Esther Perel?

  But both of you say I was looking for a person through whom I could see myself.

• 16:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:37Esther Perel?

  It's just that you wanted somebody to fix, because then you would know how important you are. And you wanted someone who was so perfect. There was nothing to fix. These are very old, rather gender-based scripts.

• 17:02Esther Perel?

  In this case, he finds the perfect woman, and she becomes the perfect woman by fixing the broken man who cries without solace.

• 17:15Speaker 03

  Yes, totally.

• 17:16Esther Perel?

  That telenovela has been done too.

• 17:18Speaker 06

  Many times.

• 17:20Esther Perel?

  No matter how much you've traveled, the two of you, you've stayed rather faithful to some old stories.

• 17:29Speaker 06

  From where we come.

• 17:30Speaker 03

  True.

• 17:31Speaker 06

  From the place where we come.

• 17:33Esther Perel?

  Right, right. They travel with us, you know? For all of us, they travel with us. But sometimes we don't realize it. Tell me something, when you fight, you threaten each other with divorce all the time?

• 17:47Speaker 03

  All the time.

• 17:47Speaker 06

  She does.

• 17:48Speaker 03

  I even go online and I find tickets. And he's like, "But your immigration, I don't care about my visa, I don't care about my green card, I'm out." You know, like, I always just want to escape.

• 17:59Speaker 06

  Like, you know, she goes to 100%.

• 18:02Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 18:02Speaker 06

  Or 120, I kind of stay back, you know? Wait, let's see, but...

• 18:06Speaker 03

  I think that for me is like when I'm fighting, I go to this void. And it's like this, like anger takes over me and it's so difficult for me to explain him because in his eyes, everything he does is perfect. So, for example, if we're having a conversation and I say, "It would be so nice if you brought me flowers." He's like, "Why are you not buying me flowers?" I'm a human too, I have feelings too. Like, "Oh, it would be so nice that you tell me how nice I look." "Why, why are you not telling me that I look so nice?" So it's like always about him and it's never about me. And I don't know if that's a very childlike part of me or what, or... But like, I am...

• 18:52Speaker 03

  I think I'm exhausted. Because as, now that you describe it, I was like, "Wow, I do everything, that's right." It never occurred to me, like, I do the repair and I do the break and then I do the cleanup.

• 19:03Esther Perel?

  And he does the being nice?

• 19:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. Now he's getting better, at least at talking, but before he would just go into the room and like literally put the...

• 19:11Esther Perel?

  He sucks.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. Because he doesn't like me to tell him cabron or pendejo, but for me, he's saying, "Fuck you." And I'm like, is there a person, your wife, talking to you? Like, help me, like, don't let me go through hell alone. Like, let's talk about this. And then also what happens maybe is that I get angry so fast that it's never about the trigger. It's never about what happened that it got me angry. The conversation then becomes, you are a bad person because you got so angry.

• 19:49Esther Perel?

  When you yell and fight and feel like you're not yourself, does it feel like it's similar to how you saw your mom?

• 19:59Speaker 03

  Yes. I became my mom and I hate that. I mean, she has beautiful parts.

• 20:05Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm, so do you.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  But, thank you. But her toxic parts are very, very intense. And the worst thing I see is like seeing myself as fighting as she would be fighting.

• 20:16Esther Perel?

  Right.

• 20:19Esther Perel?

  Because she's a very, very important part of you.

• 20:23Esther Perel?

  And she's a mixed blessing.

• 20:26Esther Perel?

  She's the one that has taken you out of many tough situations.

• 20:32Esther Perel?

  But she sometimes fights as if every situation is a tough situation, where in fact you're just talking about breakfast.

• 20:43Esther Perel?

  She grew up with tremendous violence and was often threatened. And as a result, she developed vigilant skills to detect threat and to take her anger and to turn her fear into belligerence so that she could defend herself. But what happens to us when this is our childhood is that later on, we sometimes don't know really to differentiate. Is this a threatening situation? Or is this just an unpleasant situation? And so our nervous system is geared up to fight as if everything is red alert.

• 21:31Esther Perel?

  The part that struggles more is the one that doesn't necessarily know to assess danger.

• 21:40Esther Perel?

  Since danger is imminent and could happen anywhere at any moment, God forbid you got too comfortable, your whole marriage becomes a threat.

• 21:51Esther Perel?

  It becomes a danger from which you need to leave right away.

• 21:56Esther Perel?

  When in fact, you're having an argument about breakfast.

• 21:59Speaker 06

  About cheese.

• 22:01Esther Perel?

  About cheese?

• 22:02Speaker 06

  The last one was about cheese.

• 22:03Esther Perel?

  Cheese, glad, I was close.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  He didn't want cheese and I'm like, "How dare you!"

• 22:11Speaker 03

  I know he's a good man and I didn't want my anger to transform him or to push him away. And I think that is something that I would not forgive myself if I would have pushed him away because of my violence.

• 22:30Esther Perel?

  The thing that I keep being moved by when I listen to you is that nowhere do you justify it.

• 22:42Esther Perel?

  And I think that makes a big difference for him.

• 22:46Esther Perel?

  At the same time, as you learn to speak with him in a way where you speak forcefully but without lashing out, he's gonna need to learn to stay and not continuously think, you know, "Nobody has a right to criticize me on anything" or even to ask me for anything or to make me feel anything less than perfect.

• 23:09Esther Perel?

  That's the flip side of this, you see? She then goes around thinking, "I'm so bad", and you go around thinking, "I'm so good", and there's nothing more annoying than living with a saint.

• 23:20Speaker 06

  For me, it's almost, I don't know how to deal with it. Maybe because of that.

• 23:26Esther Perel?

  Well, when she says, "I would love for you to bring me flowers", what's the problem with that statement?

• 23:30Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 23:31Esther Perel?

  Tell me.

• 23:32Speaker 06

  Nothing.

• 23:33Esther Perel?

  Obviously, there is.

• 23:36Esther Perel?

  Because you don't hear it as a request. You instantly hear it as a protest. You hear it as a criticism.

• 23:43Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 23:43Esther Perel?

  And then you say, "Well, do you do it?"

• 23:46Speaker 06

  Right.

• 23:46Esther Perel?

  And you do this eye-for-eye business.

• 23:48Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 23:51Esther Perel?

  Then you go into a competition. Who does more? Who sacrifices more? Do you do that one too?

• 23:58Speaker 06

  Oh, sure.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, all the time.

• 24:00Esther Perel?

  Tell me about that one.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  Um, he comes home and I have the meal ready. One day I didn't and he's like, "Why is the meal not ready?" Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Kind of, you know, giving me the macho latino. And I'm like, "Uh, uh, uh." "No, honey, I work too. I'm tired too. You want dinner, you cook it yourself."

• 24:21Speaker 03

  And then he could, he would like, "Whoa," you know, or he gets angry, he gets like a little bit fussy, but that was it. And then on that note, on another day, I was trying to, he was falling asleep. And I was trying to kiss him or, you know, starting to, to try to do something. And then he's like, "I'm falling asleep. I'm tired." And then I got so angry. I'm like, "I'm tired too." But like, you know, like, we have to make time for these things.

• 24:46Speaker 06

  No, I was just, I was just falling asleep. I was very tired. And I wasn't thinking of that.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  And in a way, it's like that, you know, like he, he's always perfect, he's always fine. Whatever he does is great. So there's no more room for like improvement or to give like a little bit extra mile. You know, like I can give all the extra mile there is, but he, he won't.

• 25:11Esther Perel?

  I mean, you do put her to work.

• 25:15Esther Perel?

  And you have this interesting, if you allow me, way of thinking that you're entitled.

• 25:23Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 25:24Esther Perel?

  There is an expectation that

• 25:27Esther Perel?

  there should be a meal ready on the table when you come home.

• 25:31Speaker 06

  I was alone most of my life. So I would, I would come home and make my own meal. I got used to that. But now it's probably like, "Oh, thank you for, this is great. This feels great."

• 25:43Esther Perel?

  But do you tell her this feels great? Or do you mostly tell her on the one day when she doesn't?

• 25:48Speaker 06

  I tell her on the day when she does. Well, I also tell her when she cooks for me. "Thank you, that was very nice. This is beautiful." I do tell her that as well. But also when he's not there, I'm like, "Why?"

• 25:58Speaker 03

  You tell me more on the day that there's nothing.

• 26:00Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  Also, like if I'm watching Netflix and I'm just like my five minutes of Netflix and chill and you open the door, you expect me to come run and kiss you and welcome, "Honey, how are you?" And then he gets annoyed and he says that my iPad is my affair.

• 26:19Esther Perel?

  But it wouldn't occur to you to walk over to her?

• 26:23Speaker 06

  What I mean, to walk over to her?

• 26:25Esther Perel?

  Instead of waiting for her to leap towards you,

• 26:29Speaker 06

  Right.

• 26:29Esther Perel?

  you could also

• 26:31Speaker 06

  Go towards her.

• 26:31Esther Perel?

  go to her.

• 26:32Speaker 06

  Yes, yes, of course.

• 26:33Esther Perel?

  But you're too good for that. See, that you would consider is humiliating.

• 26:39Speaker 06

  Yes, I am aware of a tremendous pride that I carry everywhere I go.

• 26:48Esther Perel?

  What do you call him? The one that is so proud that anything that is not catered at the top can instantly make him feel deflated and humiliated?

• 27:00Speaker 06

  It's like a little prince, a principito, eh? Yeah? I mean, I catch myself being that person that I despise.

• 27:12Speaker 03

  Maybe this principito, it has also helped you at something. Because if you didn't have that pride, you couldn't have gone far in this country as an immigrant.

• 27:26Esther Perel?

  It's a very nice moment here. She caught on to the idea that the part that she struggles with today is also the part that saved her as a child. And she realizes that something similar may be happening with him. That the part of him that he calls his pride and that he struggles with may also have been a part of his survival strategy earlier on. It's just a beautiful, empathic reach from her, and I just wish that I had highlighted it then.

• 28:04Esther Perel?

  We need to take a break, but please, stay with us.

• 28:11Speaker 07

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• 28:39Speaker 08

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• 29:08Speaker 09

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• 29:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm not sure. I think I could have done much better without him.

• 29:44Esther Perel?

  Describe your relationship with the Principito, because I agree with you. I'm not sure it has been so helpful. I think it has often actually made him say, "I'm too good for this."

• 29:58Speaker 06

  It has hurt me quite a bit in my career.

• 30:01Esther Perel?

  I feel that. I feel that. Say more.

• 30:05Speaker 06

  I would say my career. Because I had an opportunity to be with amazing people. And I could have taken better advantage of that. By being more humble and learning from them. But the little prince was equal.

• 30:23Esther Perel?

  The little prince was too busy trying to show how much he knew.

• 30:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, how good he was. He was just as good as everyone else. And I think in life, every day, walk around with these things, you just, you lose so much. Opportunity to meet, talk to people, connect.

• 30:42Esther Perel?

  You come in here and you present like,

• 30:47Esther Perel?

  you're a new couple, you're lots of great things. Except for the fact that she explodes. And her explosiveness is so disturbing to you and it completely paralyzes you, etc. But then, we find out this is predicated on this idea that, you know, you are the saint, you're the grounded guy, and

• 31:14Esther Perel?

  and you are the...

• 31:15Speaker 06

  Emotional, right.

• 31:16Esther Perel?

  Hysterical. Let's put the right word, you know. This way that you live with the "how dare you", "how dare you ask me", "how dare you tell me", "how dare you" usually is because I very quickly feel ashamed.

• 31:32Speaker 06

  And that creates all this anger.

• 31:34Esther Perel?

  And I would invite you to have a conversation with him about that. You'll probably glean more.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I can see that.

• 31:45Esther Perel?

  Ask him. Let him do the talking to you, since you always do the talking and he waits.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  Would you like to talk more about why you might feel that you get offended?

• 32:02Speaker 03

  Quickly.

• 32:06Speaker 06

  I'm so good, right? I'm great, I'm so wise, I've done all this meditation and I've done all this schooling. So, I deserve to be treated in a certain way. And he goes back to, I guess, the goodness of my dad. My dad was always a good man.

• 32:27Esther Perel?

  But what did you consider him? You considered him good?

• 32:32Speaker 06

  Weak.

• 32:32Esther Perel?

  Or you considered him weak?

• 32:33Speaker 06

  Weak.

• 32:34Esther Perel?

  That's what this is.

• 32:35Speaker 06

  So he's like a beautiful man, always with a great personality, but I always felt like he never got what he wanted, he always was a nice guy, but...

• 32:45Esther Perel?

  And you spend your time making sure that nobody takes advantage of you.

• 32:48Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 32:49Esther Perel?

  And so you fight even when you don't need to fight?

• 32:51Speaker 06

  Because if I drop that thing, I'm gonna be a weak person like my dad.

• 32:55Esther Perel?

  You think that she's the fighter.

• 33:00Esther Perel?

  Because she explodes.

• 33:03Speaker 06

  Personality, yeah.

• 33:05Esther Perel?

  But you are both fighters.

• 33:08Esther Perel?

  And, like you say, or like you allude to, it probably has not done you good. Certainly not in work.

• 33:18Esther Perel?

  And it's not gonna do you good here either. Because you are with somebody who's very generous.

• 33:26Speaker 03

  See, I'm generous too.

• 33:32Esther Perel?

  And don't let him convince you that you're not. You're very generous and he is continuously paying attention to every time you miss a beat. And not to every other time when you sing beautifully.

• 33:46Esther Perel?

  Because you're so making sure that you are not being screwed.

• 33:53Esther Perel?

  This dynamic is actually an opportunity. Because you are with someone who is not there to take advantage of you. And you're gonna learn what it's like to trust in that way.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  You know, when you have that armor with you, it feels like everything that I'm upset about, it's an illusion. And it's like if you're gaslighting me.

• 34:19Speaker 03

  And that's not a good feeling. So, thank you for being willing to remove that armor. Because it's...

• 34:27Esther Perel?

  How does he gaslight you?

• 34:30Esther Perel?

  Tell him.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  You gaslight me when I tell you, you know, how I feel. And you tell me, "Oh, no, you shouldn't be angry about that."

• 34:39Speaker 06

  Like I dismiss it.

• 34:41Speaker 03

  And then you make me feel that I am creating this idea in my head and that what I am feeling is not valid.

• 34:47Speaker 06

  For me, it's difficult when the situation goes from zero to a hundred in .2 seconds. You're like a Lamborghini.

• 34:55Esther Perel?

  I think that's what's difficult for you. You're so busy with the zero to a hundred, but there's a piece before.

• 35:07Esther Perel?

  And the piece before is that if she says I feel something, my guess is that part of why you tell her, "No, you don't", is because it's very hard for you to let her feel something without thinking that you're responsible about it.

• 35:24Speaker 06

  The zero to a hundred happens, the trigger is right behind it.

• 35:30Esther Perel?

  But the first thing is she can't really easily tell you whatever she feels without you being defensive about it.

• 35:41Esther Perel?

  Because it instantly triggers in you, "I'm responsible for it and I need to do something about it. And since I don't think I should do something about it or I don't agree with it, then I say, 'No, you have no validity.' And I disqualify. You shouldn't feel this way, you shouldn't want this." And then the Lamborghini gets going.

• 35:59Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 36:01Esther Perel?

  Because then she feels that, you know, she's disqualified and made invisible and she's going to show you.

• 36:09Esther Perel?

  Lamborghini is inside of her, but you often have the ignition key.

• 36:15Speaker 06

  I got the gas.

• 36:17Esther Perel?

  That doesn't mean that you can't learn not to explode, but there is a dance here that sets her up as well.

• 36:27Esther Perel?

  Can she say, "I feel something," and you just say, "That's interesting." "How so?"

• 36:34Speaker 06

  Uh huh. Yes, that's very different.

• 36:37Esther Perel?

  Can you give him a bunch of those statements, things you feel, want, experience, and just you practice being, you know, being available, basically, without being responsible, just being curious.

• 36:56Esther Perel?

  Go ahead.

• 36:58Speaker 03

  I would like for you to come out with me on Friday night after you come back from work, because it's like our only night off.

• 37:10Speaker 06

  It makes me, I would love to. You know that Fridays I'm extremely exhausted, but we'll do something that will meet our needs. So sometimes I might not be in the mood to go dancing because I'm physically tired from a long week, but we can have a...

• 37:28Esther Perel?

  Let me help you. I know you would love for us to go out on Friday night. I really like that, actually. I'm not sure I can do it each time, but I like the thought. And just repeat what she says. You don't have to agree with it. You don't have to commit to anything. You don't have to engage with it. You just have to say...

• 37:49Speaker 06

  I like that. Sounds good.

• 37:51Esther Perel?

  Or I hear that that's something that you would enjoy a lot.

• 37:54Speaker 06

  Uh huh.

• 37:56Esther Perel?

  That's that.

• 37:58Esther Perel?

  Most of the time, people just want to feel that they're acknowledged.

• 38:02Speaker 06

  Being heard, right.

• 38:05Esther Perel?

  And the best way to do that is to repeat what they said. Period. Keep going.

• 38:11Speaker 03

  Honey, it would be great that you would be able to consider not to talk to your mom every night before we go to bed. And that that is the last thing you do before we get to bed together. I know you're worried about her. I know you're worried about your dad. But I feel that when you do that, you just go into a different mindset and you get very agitated or very sad. And I don't think it... Yeah, I don't think it's good for us.

• 38:49Speaker 06

  I hear what you're saying.

• 38:52Speaker 06

  What I can do is find ways to get information from her at a time that is not disruptive to the time that we can spend together. But I still feel that I want to know. I want to have updates and see how they're doing.

• 39:10Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  How did we do on that one?

• 39:15Esther Perel?

  You tell me. How did that feel?

• 39:18Speaker 03

  It felt good. It felt better. It felt more honest.

• 39:22Speaker 03

  It felt good.

• 39:23Esther Perel?

  What would be the usual?

• 39:27Speaker 03

  You are not understanding my mom. You don't understand how she feels. She's going through a hard time. How can you not be more empathetic? Blah, blah, blah. Kind of.

• 39:41Esther Perel?

  Which you know is not the case.

• 39:45Esther Perel?

  This is a perfect example of the ignition of the Lamborghini. Because you're throwing stuff at her. That is utterly not the case.

• 39:55Esther Perel?

  You bad.

• 39:57Speaker 06

  You don't care about my mom. Or you don't care about...

• 40:00Esther Perel?

  Yeah, you bad. You bad. You don't care about my mom. You don't understand my dad. You don't see what imminent death is like. As if she doesn't, first of all. And then, you're telling me I'm bad? That brings back the entire relationship and the violence that I knew.

• 40:20Esther Perel?

  What do you think she was told when she was being hit?

• 40:25Speaker 06

  That she's, you know, she's bad.

• 40:33Speaker 03

  And with the family especially, it's been hard because when you say hurtful things like, "Oh, you don't have a relationship with your mom."

• 40:41Esther Perel?

  So you don't understand the closeness. Oh, yeah, you go to that place? You're good!

• 40:47Speaker 03

  "Oh, you don't speak to them." You are the weird ones. You're the ones that are not speaking with each other so often.

• 40:57Esther Perel?

  What makes me smile, of course, is that this man, who is so worried about being manipulated, is a master manipulator. Because it's not just that he tells her, "You don't understand why I care about my father's health and I need the updates." But then he adds another layer of, "And of course, you couldn't understand, because you don't nearly have that kind of relationship with your parents." It's hostile. But he thinks of himself as good. And she has bought into the idea that she's the belligerent one and he's the kind one.

• 41:42Esther Perel?

  All of that is kindle for the fire. But then you only see the fire. And you do not see how much you...

• 41:52Speaker 06

  Contribute.

• 41:53Esther Perel?

  Yeah. And ignite it. Contribute to ignite it. Doesn't mean she can't resist it. But it doesn't come from nowhere. So this was much better. Find a way to connect with your parents before, not before you go to sleep, so that you can be the husband and not the son of.

• 42:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:13Esther Perel?

  But I think that you have a lot of things on your menu. And now it's about putting this in place.

• 42:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 42:22Esther Perel?

  And realizing that you won't leave here and suddenly transform, but you're going to practice this. And you have a good idea, actually, of what works, what is helpful, and what is undermining. And if you keep the degree of honesty with which you came here, also with each other, you're on a very good track.

• 43:12Speaker 00

  You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity: In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So, since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs, TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 44:35Speaker 07

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.