The Hidden Prisons Trapping You & How to Break Free

This conversation hits close to home. Christian Howes is Lewis's brother, and Lewis has shared many times what it was like visiting him behind bars as a young man, watching someone he loved trapped in a system designed to break people. Now Christian sits alongside Shaka Senghor, who spent 19 years in prison, including 7 in solitary confinement, to reveal a truth that will shake you: most people walking free are more imprisoned than they ever were. Through journaling, music, poetry, and confronting their deepest shame, both men discovered freedom inside concrete walls before they were physically released. You'll see how the prisons in your own mind, built from unhealed trauma and limiting beliefs, are keeping you from the life you want. Their journeys will show you how to identify what's truly holding you back and give you practical tools to break free, starting with the courage to name your pain and the wisdom to forgive without conditions. Watch & Learn More About Redemption TimeShaka’s books:Writing My WrongsLetters to the Sons of SocietyHow to Be FreeIn this episode you will:Transform your relationship with failure by celebrating your victories instead of erasing them with negative self-talkMaster the practice of forgiveness without conditions to free yourself from the past and stop carrying resentmentUnlock the courage to pursue your purpose even when society tells you your past disqualifies you from greatnessDiscover how to identify and escape the hidden prisons built from shame, grief, and trauma that keep you trapped in repeating patternsLearn why gratitude and presence are your most powerful weapons against depression, anxiety, and feeling stuck in lifeFor more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1866For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Jason WilsonGabor MatéEric "ET" Thomas Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back to the School of Greatness. We have a very special episode with two inspiring men with two different, yet very similar stories. Shaka Senghor and Christian Howes, two men who learned how to rewrite their story and find purpose after time spent in prison. Shaka is a New York Times bestselling author, internationally recognized speaker, and leading voice on resilience and redemption. Christian Howes is my brother. He is an award-winning jazz violinist, a composer, an educator, and an inspiring teacher. Today, they're going to share their stories. For anyone who's feeling trapped physically, mentally, emotionally,

• 0:43Lewis Howes?

  or spiritually, and you feel like you can't break free within your own mind, in your own heart, or in your body, this is the episode for you. It's all about how to become a free human being. We've got two amazing individuals on here who are going to be talking about their experience from overcoming so much before prison, during prison, and after prison. And there's so much that the world does not know about on what you guys have gone through and how you've overcome the lives that you've had. And there are a lot of people, Shaka, you talk about this, that there are a lot of people that are imprisoned who are actually

• 1:22Lewis Howes?

  not in prison. And they are living an imprisoned life, even though they're not behind bars. And yet, both of you are behind bars, and I think both of you became free at some point in your own minds, behind bars, but you've also been prisoners outside of bars. And so, I want to, I want to start with a quote from your book, Shaka, and then let you guys open it up from here. This quote says, "Prison is designed to break you. The walls, the rules, the routine, it's all meant to strip you down until you forget who you are. But what I discovered is that the most powerful prisons aren't the ones made of concrete and steel." They're the ones we carry with with us built from grief, anger, shame, trauma, and self doubt.

• 2:08Lewis Howes?

  And I'm curious, how have you learned and how both of you learned how to overcome the prisons that you created within yourself outside of prison? I'll let you start.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  That's such an incredible question, you know, when I think about my journey to actual physical incarceration, where I spent nineteen years, seven years of those was a solitary confinement. What I discovered through that process of freeing myself was that I had been incarcerated before I had ever been in handcuffs. Because I inherited a narrative that said, you'll be dead or locked up before you're twenty one. I was sentenced to prison, I was nineteen years old, so I fulfill that prophecy that I thought about, you know.

• 2:53Lewis Howes?

  You manifested what you thought.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and the negative, right? It was like this whole thing that, oh, my life can only have this outcome. So let me just live within the framework of that mindset.

• 3:05Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  And it was when I was in solitary confinement that I went on this journey, journaling, trying to unpack, how did I get here? I wanted to be an artist and a doctor, but here I was, serving out my most promising years in prison, in a prison inside a prison, which is solitary confinement. And what I did is I started journaling to ask this question, how did I get here? And what I discovered was mind blowing, because I realized that the mindset that I had accepted based on that narrative led me to that path. And what I began to challenge was, if this works absolutely in a negative, then it has to work in a positive.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  And that's when I went on this journey to discover my mind, which I eventually fell in love with. And that's where I found myself getting free.

• 3:56Lewis Howes?

  When did you first fall in love with your mind? How old were you?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  I would have been at that point, probably twenty seven or so. I was in solitary, so nineteen ninety nine, two thousand. And it was through the journaling process.

• 4:11Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 4:12Speaker 01

  And I found this incredible human being who had been covered up by trauma, shame, uh, grief, you know, all the things, anger, the things, this cloud that I carried around. And I found myself working through that cloud. And I was like, oh, this beautiful human being exists. And if you can embrace this human being, this little boy who had all these dreams and desires, like, you'll never be, you know, held captive by anything. And that's when I began that journey. And it was the most, it's the most beautiful, my mind is the most beautiful place that I exist in.

• 4:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Wait, so for those that don't know what solitary confinement actually is, maybe they have a conception on what it is.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:54Lewis Howes?

  Explain what it is for people that have no clue.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  So solitary confinement is twenty three hour lockdown every day in the most chaotic, barbaric, inhumane environment imaginable. It is the one thing in America that I don't think people are even aware of the brutality that exists in that environment and what it's designed to do. Um, it is literally designed to break a human being and to, you know, ensure that when you leave there, any semblance of humanity no longer exists. And to be able to discover my own mind in that environment was both survival, but also a spiritual reckoning that, you know, I'm, I'm fortunate I was able to go into solitude inside a solitary.

• 5:41Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Which are different things, which is that, that internal journey, um, that I was able to go on.

• 5:47Lewis Howes?

  But after seven years, how do you find peace within solitary confinement? There's no mentors, there's no art, there's no music, there's no creativity around you. How did you create that within you?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Well, I was really lucky. Um, I think that there are spaces in the world where if you inhabit them.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  You may be lucky, right? So if you live in a certain area code, that can be a matter of luck. If you're born with the genetics of LeBron James, there's a physical luck there, right? That you can't script that. Uh, my luck that I was actually literate in an environment where the average literacy rate is third grade. And so I was able to read stories of other people who had triumphed over hardship. Uh, I was able to read fiction. I was able to read autobiographies and philosophy. And so those things just kept my mind moving forward. And what I've come to understand about being stuck, whether it's being imprisoned in your own mind, whether it's suicidal ideation, whether it's depression, is what happens is your mind can't take another step.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  And so what reading did for me was that it allowed me to just keep my mind moving forward as I was fighting to really unlock myself from this

• 7:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  imprisoned way of being.

• 7:04Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Now, both you and Chris are the same age, right? You went in essentially around the same time, maybe a six month window difference when you both went into jail at the same time. And jail back then was a different time than it is now, I'm assuming, on how things are run.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 7:22Lewis Howes?

  I don't know if they're any better, but I'm assuming they're different.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:25Lewis Howes?

  But what Chris, from what Shaka just shared, what resonated with you from your personal experience? And again, you guys are around the same age, went at the same time, you know, around the same neighborhood, you know, about four hours away from each other, Michigan, Ohio.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:41Lewis Howes?

  What's, what opened up for you during that?

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Pretty much everything that I've heard Shaka talk about has resonated with me, the one way or another. From every, and he speaks prolifically and eloquently about all these topics and, you know, so it's great for me to hear it from him. Uh, to answer your question, like when I was locked up, and Shaka asked me this question earlier too.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  I tried to focus on like four areas of productivity. Uh, one was like,

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Intellectual, academic, reading, you know. Um, one was my musical, um, development. One was, uh, just my body, you know, so working out. And then the fourth one was that I tried to maintain interpersonal relationships, not only in prison, but really I'm talking about by, by writing letters. So I would write letters to our family and to a few people back home. Those four things, that was like kind of my, I guess, north star of like, like, how am I gonna make the most of this four years? Because obviously on any given day in prison, you have a choice. A lot of things, a lot of times people think, oh, you're in prison, well, you had nothing better to do. So of course you became a great writer and like you got stronger. It's like, no, it doesn't work that way.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  I always tell people, if you were on a stranded island, you'd be surprised at how easy it is to get depressed. And, and like, you know, and I didn't do seven years in solitary, but I did probably about seven weeks in solitary. So I know what it feels like and I remember that I would be in solitary. And this is a perfect example, right? Well, you'll tell me what you think, but when you're in solitary, you feel like, okay, today I'm gonna read books. I'm gonna do pushups, I'm gonna do meditation, but then you, I didn't always have the strength to do that. And I would just lay the entire day and I could not get myself up. I don't know if you ever experienced, but that's how, so, so it doesn't matter if you have time. It's still the same dilemma for a human being, like, what are you gonna do with your time? And I think if anything, prison just, it just highlights these lessons for us, you know?

• 9:45Speaker 02

  And, um, but since I've been out, which was part of your question, like, how do I escape the prisons? That can show up for me, as Shaka says, from grief, trauma, shame, guilt, all these kinds of things. I will say that it's a, we have to keep, we have to keep maintaining it. We need to keep our eyes on it. And I think there can be times, just like in prison, where we're up and where things are feeling good. And then there, there can be a downturn. So I'm fifty three now. I've been out of prison almost thirty years. And so even now at fifty three, I'm like, hey, this, where are we going next? How do we keep it moving positive? So I, so the same thing, really, to be honest with you, it's like all the things that you

• 10:29Speaker 02

  share on your podcast, like, these are the things that inspire me, you know, constantly trying to look for what can I do to feed my body, my, the, my knowledge of psychology, my emotional intelligence, and building healthy relationships.

• 10:45Lewis Howes?

  Yes. I mean, you know, not everyone watching this or listening has been to prison, but I'm assuming everyone watching or listening has experienced some type of shame, or guilt, or grief in their life, or resentment, or anger. They've experienced similar emotions. But how, how have each one of you learned to heal from shame, guilt, or trauma that occurred either before prison, in prison, or sharing your story after prison? How have each one of you learned, or are still learning how to do it? And not feeling ashamed every time you walk into a room?

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:22Lewis Howes?

  Does someone know this about me? Do they not know this about me? Should I say this? Should I not say this? Like, how to not feel ashamed about who you are, and what you've been through?

• 11:31Speaker 01

  It's such a great question. And one of the, one of the things about shame, I actually write, there's a chapter I write about this feeling, right?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  And actually, it came from my work out here, in society, working the regular job like most people are doing. And I remember I had this moment where a project was handed to me. It was a very expensive project. And I'm working with, you know, this team who I believed in, they were capable, and unfortunately, just couldn't deliver. And I could, I should have just stopped the project. But I kept going to the end, cost the company some money, cost some time. And I remember talking to the CEO, and we had a very kind of just like a debriefing. And he walked me through kind of, you know, his process of like, what could you have done different? What would you do, et cetera, right? And it was a very thoughtful, very prolific, very intentional way of like assessing,

• 12:26Speaker 01

  how do we just get better, faster and more productive? And I remember just being seized up with this feeling of like, man, I failed, you know? And what I did, which is one of my superpowers is my ability to go back and write about, what was the real feeling there? What was really coming up for me?

• 12:45Lewis Howes?

  What was the real feeling?

• 12:46Speaker 01

  The real feeling was attached to my childhood. At a time where somebody who our family trusted attempted to molest me. And as a kid who didn't know what to do with the feelings of anger, I responded by breaking into this guy's house with the, with the attempt to destroy his home and just say, hey, what you did wasn't o- okay. And I got caught by the police and I got arrested. And my mother and my father, they thought that I was just on some type of bad behavior experience. But there was a deeper thing that had happened and I hadn't talked about it. And my family, my parents, they hadn't created space for me to talk about it, which is something that I think a lot of people,

• 13:31Speaker 01

  you know, end up being trapped in shame because there's no space to talk about it. And finally, I was fifty years old, the first time I ever told my dad my reason for breaking in that man's house. And I called both of my parents and I remember talking to my dad, I'm a dad. And it was this moment where I just said to him, you know, hey, here's my why. And I could just feel through the phone, my dad just like, oh, whoa, you know? As a dad, that could not have felt good that, hey, I took my off the bar, maybe, or maybe not, I don't know. But I explained to him like, it wasn't nothing he did, this guy was just who he was, right?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Um, and so there's these moments that I've experienced it, and even with my past where it came full circle, which was one of the things that inspired the book, is my brother was murdered in twenty twenty one. I fly home to Detroit to help with the burial process, all the things. And there was a moment where I'm just sitting there and my stepmom, my bonus mom, she's crying because she's grieving my brother's life. And I was struck by this feeling of guilt at a time when I should have been grieving. Because I made somebody else's family feel like that. Hmm. And that moment for me was like, you know, this is a deeper level of shame.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Um, and so what I did is I, I, I actually ended up writing a letter to the bro, to the person who murdered my brother. And that ability to understand that something had to transpire in his life for him to pull that trigger. Helped me process the feeling of guilt, but also the feeling of shame and recognize that the nineteen year old me. That pulled that trigger was a hurt, broken kid who had no space to heal. Hmm. And I was able to have empathy while still being accountable. Um, and so what I've just, all these things that I've used to unpack these larger life lessons.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Because I've seen colleagues who are doing amazing, but they don't get a thing right and they beat up on themselves. I've seen parents, I've seen people in relationships. And it all comes back to oftentimes something that happened early in our childhood. That imprinted in our minds that we have to be perfect, but we can't make mistakes. And if we do make a mistake, that we must therefore beat up on ourselves over and over and over again. Replant, yeah, replaying that moment of the failure over and over. And what journaling did for me is it disrupted that cycle. What writing that letter did is it broke that cycle. Wow.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  And allowed me to be present with myself and feel the grief of losing my brother without attaching it to my own guilt. And like, that's the power of like really awakening to the, to one's mind. And realizing if you just keep these small steps, you know, writing it down. So it seems like a small thing to do, it's one of the biggest unlocks that we can, you know, ever have access to.

• 16:37Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever tried journaling, Chris, in the last, you know, since you've been out of jail? Have you tried any of that or how have you learned how to process? We're still now trying to figure it out what's been opening up for you from the healing journey.

• 16:49Speaker 02

  I, it is funny that, I mean, I developed a writing habit. And I'm, I'm recently, I've kind of traced that back to when I was in prison and writing letters all the time. I've seen that that is. Beneficial, but I would say just naming it and even having permission as men especially to give a name to these real emotions, you know, and I think that's part of what I admire so much about your work, why I think it's so important what you're doing, you know, creating like an example and you, you know, example for men to be able to talk about fear, shame,

• 17:30Speaker 02

  guilt, you know, the things that are not commonly associated as like mainly emotions. I think that and in prison, this was one of my big questions, like what is the code of a man and what does it mean to be a man? And when you're in, and we talk about this in the film, we use art to kind of address this question of, because I think some of these, the answers can't all be spelled out in words literally too. It has, sometimes it's poetic, sometimes it's visual, sometimes it's artistic. But in prison, you know, you learn about the code of a convict, but I've kind of wondered like, what's the difference? Code of a convict, code of a man. I mean, that's really what I wanted to know when I was 20, going into jail, probably, I think around the same time as you, right? And you

• 18:15Speaker 02

  were 19, I was 20, but I mean, I was young. I didn't identify as a grown man at 20. Right. I was like, I thought, well, in a couple of years I'll be a grown man, right? But I went in there and I was like, like, I was asking men around me, like, how does it work? Like, what is it? And, and there's very conflicting messages that we get as men for what it means to be a man. And I think one of the, the most, the epitome of one of those messages is the idea that as a man, you don't let anybody disrespect you. You're, you don't let anybody like get over on you, right? But this, I think that the irony of this is that if we follow this definition.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  That it is ultimately a path of self hatred and self destruction. And in prison, you see that it's like to the the ultimate degree, right? Because if somebody disrespects you, then you have to meet it. And then it it only just goes to that you're willing to kill somebody or you're willing to name somebody, which actually is just killing yourself because then you're gonna do a life bit. So this idea that a man is someone who is willing to meet anything with violence, I think is very, it's a very destructive force for men. And I think it's also related to these other things like not being able to name fear.

• 19:34Lewis Howes?

  What do you mean by not being able to name something? What does that mean?

• 19:38Speaker 02

  I think that men are are um don't feel comfortable saying, I felt afraid. Like this is another film, this is another um theme that we address in this film that I made. And where it's like this idea PTSD, right? Like I went to see a therapist or I heard about this thing called PTSD. And I was like, well, what is it? And I was really, because you just hear the initials and you're like, I don't know what that means. It's a condition, right? You don't really understand. Well, post traumatic stress disorder. Basically, the way it was explained to me, it's like, I asked my therapist, I was like, is it, do I have PTSD? And he was like, whoa, wait, so you spent four years in prison? He was like, well, yeah, that would be a good reason to have it. And but he broke it down to me.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  He said PTSD is something if you've found yourself in a lot of uncertainty and a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety. But what I'm saying is that I don't think I had given myself permission to acknowledge that I had been afraid. I I think it's like taboo to say I feel fear. Again, this is part of what I admire about you, I think, is like you're a very strong man who also names all these different emotions, complex emotions, and provide a model for how, and you too. Yeah. You know what I mean? And this is like your book, The Mask of Masculinity, I think, deals with a lot of these things. So I try to be constantly surrounding myself with education and inspiration, you know,

• 21:07Speaker 02

  stories and of course, I I keep trying to be engaged in all the other. Work of being present in my body, present in my emotions, you know, meditation, all these things. But um, but that's, I think it starts with naming these things and making it less taboo to be able to talk about as men, all these different feelings that we have. If we talk, if first of all, if we say, I feel grief, that's the starting point.

• 21:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  The say, I feel fear, I feel shame, I feel guilt. It has to start there.

• 21:41Lewis Howes?

  On a scale of one to 10, how much shame do you still feel from your past pains? Whatever it might be, whether it be jail time, or stuff before, or whatever it might be. 10 being the most amount of shame, one being the least amount of shame. So that's part one. Um, one to 10, how much shame do you still feel? And number two, how do you process the shame now? If there is any, to not be so extreme or so intense in your body or your mind to hold you back from living the life you want?

• 22:15Speaker 01

  That, that's, that's a powerful question. You know, I think, I think in my, in my journey, what I, what I know with certainty is that it's been a sliding scale.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  And I didn't realize this until I actually began to write about shame, that environmental factors oftentimes dictate how we feel about ourselves. Growing up in a city like Detroit, where the impact of like the, the war on drugs was very present, a lot of people were incarcerated, a lot of people were shot and killed. The understanding of that environment in my community saying, hey, we understand that you went through this thing, but it's not who you are today, kind of lessen that, that, that feeling. Um, but it's also been weaponized in intimate relationships, you know, where I've had, you know, partners at times basically use my past

• 23:12Speaker 01

  to try to demean me.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  That's not good.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Uh, and that was like, whoa, you know, and it made me stop and pause and think about, well, wow, does this person really see me as my old self, right? Um, and, and just for context, I went to prison for a second degree homicide. Um, and so to have someone who says that they love you, call you a murderer. And then how do you, how do you, you know, evolve from that, right? Um, and I remember when that, that experience happened and it did, it, it took, it, it made that scale slide way up, right? Oh, yeah, you feel more shame at that point. Yeah, cause it's more like, hey, this is a person that I'm, you know, tasked with protecting. And if they really see me in this way, what does that say, right? Yeah.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Um, and then there's the subconscious things that happen when you're in culture, right? You're, I'm at work and I would just, we'd be in the cell, so like when they're like, yo, you killed that. And I'm like, oh, you know what I mean? So it's just like this subconscious thing will come up. A works thing, like you did a good job, but using it. Right, right. And, and without them even being aware of like what that could signal or, or mean. And then there's the other social context. I'm moving a lot of spaces where oftentimes because of the space that I'm in, nobody would even assume that I spent 20 years in prison. Right. And so to hear people talk candidly about someone who's committed a crime and that they should be locked away forever. They should be given a death penalty.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  Like those moments of like, wow, like this is what that person would think if I was, you know, at that low stage of my life, right? They might've thought that about you when you were 19, 20. Exactly, right? And so how I've combated that is that I have been able to recognize that my 19 year old self was a kid who had experienced more trauma than is almost humanly possible for people to even understand. And that that kid deserved to be, one, held accountable, which I was, I served that time.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  But also to really be, to recognize that that was a traumatic reaction to a life full of trauma. And that there is empathy and compassion that those things can both be true. Yes. That I can be accountable, but that I can also recognize that there was something that drove that behavior that no longer exists in me today. Mm-hmm. Um, and so it's just a constant going back and reminding myself and as I said, that scale slides back and forth. Sure. Uh, where it's at today is a zero. Yeah, yeah. I feel no shame in, in, in who I'm at, but tomorrow something else could arise. And then I have to do the work to get it back down to a zero. Sure, okay, yeah, that's powerful. Well, you can rest.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  That really resonates with me.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  I think I agree that I do a lot of work in schools. I've visited nearly a thousand orchestra classrooms in the United States in the last thirty years. You know, and that's a big part of what I do is going and working with kids, middle school and high school. And a lot of the teachers that have hired me over the years, they know my backstory and they even think like, well, this is a good thing. We want this guy to be able to set a good example for these kids. And, you know, whether it's explicit or whether it's implicit, I I see part of the work of being a music educator as also influencing positive character development. Right? You know? And so if I'm go and there's been a lot of times when people have asked me explicitly to speak about

• 26:50Speaker 02

  character issues or tell my story and impart the messages, you know, to kids to try to not necessarily scare them straight, but to inspire them to to do good things. But most of the time when I go to schools, I'm just a music teacher, right? I'm I'm being I'm like a guest music teacher. And some sometimes I worry that like if, you know, these teachers, they might, they might not want to hire me if they know my backstory because not everybody does, you know? And so that kind of like, you know, this, this, this thought that, that

• 27:30Speaker 02

  what you said about it, depending on how other people are responding to you, I I can relate to that. But in general, I feel like it's work that I just have to keep doing. Like even if that brings up, if one experience with a person brings up shame in me or guilt or triggers me, I just see that as evidence that I need to keep doing work. Yeah. To get to a zero, ideally as much of the time. And it's about, I I do believe that we have the ability to respond.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  You know, and we that we have to cultivate that ability and that choice to respond to situations that might trigger us today. So I'm working on that.

• 28:09Lewis Howes?

  You're talking about the old self versus the new self. I think anyone here could identify that. And no matter what type of shame or trauma or experiences they've been through, you know, what range of, you know, experiences they've been through, the old self. You know, I think people hold on to shame because they're living in the old self a lot. Thinking of like what they did or what someone did to them, or what they didn't do, or what they should have done, or whatever, the mistakes they made or problems that happened, who they hurt, who hurt them, things like that. Thinking of these things and holding on to them. And it's still us, I think, when we live in that shame. But there's gotta be a point where we can learn to figure out how to process and integrate a new version of ourselves.

• 28:53Lewis Howes?

  So so we can still recognize that part of our story, but it not be the new identity of who we are today. So how do we learn to shift from an old self or an old identity and transform into a new self and new identity without shame?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  That's such a great flaming for for a question that I think about often is how how does one reimagine themselves and how do you create a new narrative? And not be held hostage to your worst moment?

• 29:27Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  And what I've found for me is that is celebrating all the victories. Not just the small ones or not just the big ones. But when you start getting into the details of how do you actually show up, right? So when I was thinking about my experience at the company, what I thought about was that that was one, you know, project that I didn't get right. But what about all these other ones I got right? What about all of my colleagues that come to me in search of wisdom to solve a problem? How many different ways have I innovated at this company and help the CEO see something that he probably would not have seen without being in conversation with me, right? And so it's like we, if we get to a space where

• 30:10Speaker 01

  we stop erasing our victories, because that's what shame does. Shame erases the victories. And then when you lean into that old narrative, it literally says, hey, this season doesn't count. And you think about it from a sports, you know, perspective, right? Like, you know, we'd love to hold on to the lore of yesteryear when it's the winning part of it. Um, but we know we can't carry those, you know, those losses over to the next year. Start with a clean slate and it's really about how do you give yourself a clean slate? How do you actually count those victories and be intentional about it, writing it down? You know, that's the, the journaling part for me. The other part is mindfulness.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Um, whenever I found myself ruminating on a past failure, what I instantly is try to do is bring myself to the present moment. Sometimes it's just with gratitude. I'm thankful to be in this moment.

• 31:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  I'm thankful that I have a glass of water. And that ability to move into the present is one of the greatest unlocks, right? Because oftentimes we're just loo-, we're living in a space that no longer exists. Like my past does not exist anymore, you know, uh, it doesn't, I'm not in that moment anymore. Uh, my future hasn't arrived, so I can only be here in this moment with you and Chris, which I feel so grateful for, you know, to hear Chris articulate his experience. And this mirroring some of the things that I navigate, right? Um, that's how you like get out of the shame and that's how you start to create a new scorecard is just being present in the moment, you know?

• 31:46Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:48Lewis Howes?

  And Chris, do you feel like you were holding on to or trying to hide the past after you got out of jail for a while? The first few years where, you know, I just heard you in shock at talking about saying, I'm just gonna go be a musician and not talk about this and let, you know, let this be in the past.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Well, it's fun. Yeah. When I first got out, um, I remember I applied for this thing to go to, um, some teaching and it was like a, a music slash whatever. And I, and I proposed, I said, I'm going to talk about, you know, like drugs and I'm going to talk about, you know, try to impart some of these messages to encourage kids and, and they, and some of the feedback I got from this particular, particular application was like, no, just, just stick with the music. We don't want you to talk about this other thing. But I don't know. Maybe that made you feel shameful of like, okay.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  Who knows? You know, there could have been a lot of different factors. I mean, fact is, right now, I'm, I'm wanting to lean more back into this because I sense that it is, it's important for me to develop. It's important for me to lean into it as opposed to away from it. And recently I've reconnected with reentry communities. And that's been really inspiring because I feel like when I'm in a room, in that room with formerly incarcerated people, I feel like I belong in that room. I feel like there's a way that I can be authentic that I don't always feel in any other spaces, even just like connecting with you, you know, before the show, there's just a, there's a sort of understanding and a feeling of being seen for who I am.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  And a feeling of not needing to be ashamed, actually. Yeah. And so I, so I think that. Why, why is that? I don't know why. Yeah. Do you know why? Well, is it, I mean, well, when we're in prison, I think you do learn to see the prisoners as being human. Yeah. And when I first got locked up. And you went for drugs, right? Yeah, it was a drug charge. Yeah, it was trafficking LSD. And when I first got locked up, you know, we came from the same family. And I was on full scholarship at Ohio State University at the time. And I had been identified as quote unquote academically gifted and all these things. And when I, and I, and then, and a lot of people thought that what I did was kind of like, didn't really count as a crime.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  It's kind of like, but it did, but you know, but that was like an old narrative of like, oh, it's just drugs. Yeah. And so when I went in, I kind of had this narrative inside that was like, well, I'm a drug dealer. And you, I think you see a lot of this in prison. Oh, absolutely. People are like, well, there's a, there's a hierarchy of, you're always trying to say like, it's not, I'm not as bad as that guy, you know? And so I kind of have that, that story when I went in, but the longer I was in, the more I saw like, I'm exactly the same as everybody else here. Yeah. Like. Why is that? Yeah. I think, well, I think part of it was that I saw the people that I was with as being deeply human, you know, that there was so much I could learn from them, that they had so much of rich

• 34:45Speaker 02

  knowledge and wisdom and soulfulness and that, that there, you know, my relationships with them were meaningful. And I was learning so much from the people that I met in prison. Yeah. And, you know, the idea would be that like, you know, because I had all these good grades and like the full, that I should be the one that's teaching. And I did teach a lot of musicians, a lot of, a lot of people came to me to teach them about music, but I learned more from them, you know. And so, so I think maybe another answer to your question is that through positive relationships is a way to hopefully work through some of this shame, to surround yourself with people who see you as human and, and constantly give you that feedback of valuing your, that

• 35:30Speaker 02

  humanity.

• 35:33Lewis Howes?

  What were the three biggest lessons each one of you learned in jail? Whether it be from a person that said something, something you observed, something you experienced yourself, you know, three biggest lessons, I'll let you start, Chris.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  I mean, that would probably be one of them, is that knowledge comes from, in more places and more people than we are taught to believe. And that we can really enrich our perspective, the more that we listen to a wide variety of voices, that knowledge can come from so many different things. I think another lesson that I learned was that, and this is maybe kind of a, even a cliche, but like when things are hard, we have the capability of being hard. And when things are not hard, we can get soft real quick. And so we have to be, you know,

• 36:29Speaker 02

  my experience is that we have to constantly be vigilant about that. Because again, when you're, when you're really suffering with things that are hard, you can rise the occasion, but it can be easy to become soft and in bad ways. And in being soft, like not taking care of yourself, you're doing yourself a disservice. And, and that's something you have to cultivate.

• 36:54Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Um, as far as a third. A third lesson, I think that the lesson that I want to always be present to is the lesson that I've also heard you speak eloquently about, which is when you came out, how much you were, how much gratitude you had for the simple things in life. That's something that I want to be more present to. I think prison teaches you much more about the, um, the, the levels of, uh, of how much can be taken from you. And it teaches you to value intimacy and trust and freedom. There's probably a lot of other lessons, but that's, that's three that I got for now.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  What about for you, Shaka? Oh man, so many, so many lessons. I, I would say one of the big lessons I've learned from prison that applies to life is that even the great amongst us can fall short. And that even the lowliest of us can rise again. And that, that is something I've learned in prison from just being around incredible, incredible men, some of the most inspiring men that I've ever met in my life. A second lesson that I would say is, is one of the ones that probably is the most near and dear to my heart, um, is being in service of others

• 38:20Speaker 01

  is one of the greatest expressions of our humanity. Um, something that I've carried, you know, I'm always in service of specifically young people and people who are marginalized and who have been forgotten about or demeaned, you know, by society. And I would just, I think the third one is, um, it's kind of like, the third one is that prison doesn't define you. It just reveals the essence of who you are. And like that to me is rooted in, you know, this question that I get often of like, how did you become so resilient? And I'm like, I didn't go in prison knowing I was resilient. Uh, it wasn't until I was in the story

• 39:05Speaker 01

  that I began to recognize this deeper part of what it means to be able to overcome adversity. Um, and that that's what prison revealed to me about myself is that as someone who's had, I mean, just incredible amounts of trauma and adversity, I also have an indomitable will to overcome those things. Um, and so those, those are probably the big key lessons, but I mean, it's like Chris says, there's so many more. Um, when he was speaking about naming, naming the things, right? I was, I was really like struck in my spirit by the idea of like fear. And something that's really interesting in society is we always talk about people who are courageous,

• 39:50Speaker 01

  uh, which can't have courage if you were never afraid.

• 39:53Lewis Howes?

  It's true.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Like if you're not, if you're not afraid, then that doesn't require you to be courageous. Um, but if you were ever been courageous in your life, if you've ever done anything where you like, man, I, it's a courage to do that. That means that you had fear and you did it anyway. And so I live my life in that space of like going forward in spite of. Um, and so that was great that we get a chance to name, you know, these feelings and these emotions and, and these thoughts and like, I'm just so grateful right now to be in conversation with you and learn from your journey.

• 40:26Lewis Howes?

  Likewise.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  To see where it's brought you and where it's taken you. So it's incredible.

• 40:32Lewis Howes?

  It's powerful. This is powerful. And again, I'm, I'm for anyone watching or listening, I think anyone can relate to the feeling of not feeling free in their life at some point. Maybe it's right now in a relationship, maybe it's in their career, maybe they don't feel free in their body. They don't feel free in their mind. They feel anxious and stressed all the time. And the goal is how do we create as much inner peace and freedom as possible to experience life to the fullest, have beautiful relationships and feel joy as often.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 41:02Lewis Howes?

  And it doesn't mean we're not going to experience challenges and limiting thoughts and grief and sadness and go through hard seasons.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:09Lewis Howes?

  But how do we not let those hard seasons turn into hard years and a hard lifetime?

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:14Lewis Howes?

  And overcome them through grace.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:16Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious, the synchronicities here are really cool. I didn't even realize you guys both went in essentially the same year. And you're the same age until we got here earlier.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:26Lewis Howes?

  But it's been almost thirty five years since you both went in.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 41:29Lewis Howes?

  Is that correct?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:31Lewis Howes?

  Cause you're both fifty four.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:32Lewis Howes?

  You went in around nineteen twenty.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:34Lewis Howes?

  Sorry, fifty three, so thirty.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Fifty three also.

• 41:37Lewis Howes?

  Thirty three, thirty four years, almost, almost thirty four years. Right? Over three decades, three and a half decades almost since you went in.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:45Lewis Howes?

  If each of you could go back and talk to your younger self.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 41:49Lewis Howes?

  The day before the crime or day before it, your, the action happened where you got sentenced essentially. Um, if you could say something to your younger self.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:03Lewis Howes?

  At this version, like you as now going back shotgun and walking right up to the younger nineteen version of you.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:11Lewis Howes?

  If you could say something, you had a minute to say something. What would you say? For one.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 42:17Lewis Howes?

  And two, do you think what you say would actually matter for you changing? And not deciding to take that action?

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:26Lewis Howes?

  Would it have made a difference? So I'm curious about that. I'll have you both say, uh, reply to this. What would you say to your younger self right before the, the crime?

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Wow, that's a, that's a great question. Um.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  What I would say to that nineteen year old kid is.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  You are deserving of therapy and treatment.

• 42:53Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  To address what happened to you.

• 42:55Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  And you should feel okay with seeking that out, even though it wasn't offered.

• 43:04Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  And then the second part of that question.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Is that based on my mentoring, young men and young women who come from similar backgrounds, who have had similar experiences. I think it would have worked. Really? Um. If you were eye to eye with your younger self from your version now. My version now. If you sat with him before that day happened. Yeah. And you said this, you think you could have gotten through your younger self? I think so. And, and I say that because I've gotten through to enough young men. Wow. At this version of myself now. Interesting. Uh, who have come off, you know, being victims of gun violence. And I've encouraged them to actually seek out therapy. Oh, yeah. Uh, and I've created the space for them to realize

• 43:57Speaker 01

  that that doesn't make them weak. Hmm. It makes them human. Wow. And that is going to empower them to make different life decisions. And so to, to get the type of letters I get from the young man that I've met on this part of my journey and how they say that one conversation. Wow. Help them think about life differently. Wow. Make different decisions. You know, it requires, what's required to do that is a deep understanding of all those consequences. Um, and you, you said something earlier that I love is that when you enter these spaces, you're not doing a scared straight program. Mm hmm.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  These young men need to be loved straight. Hmm, like Jason Wilson, what he's doing. Yeah. Now it's like. Yeah. And acting eye to eye. Absolutely. Being vulnerable. Yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think it, I think it works in that context, uh, cause I've seen it work enough times. Okay. What about you, Chris? What would you say?

• 44:53Speaker 02

  That, that resonates a lot. I think that I would, I would say to that young man, um, I would name some of those feelings that, that he's feeling. And I would say it's okay to feel those things.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  You know, these are, these are, um, and it's okay to get help. Um, and I would try to also point that young man towards the hope of.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  A positive vision for his life and all the joy and love and connection and purpose that he could tap into because I think he was missing all of that, all those things at that moment.

• 45:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  I don't know if he would listen if it was just one day, but if I had enough time and if I could, if I could, you know, wrap around him and like hold him back from certain things, then maybe it would have changed.

• 45:45Lewis Howes?

  I guess the challenge is, you know,

• 45:49Lewis Howes?

  this is what, late eighties, early nineties? When was this?

• 45:51Speaker 02

  Early nineties.

• 45:52Lewis Howes?

  Early nineties?

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:53Lewis Howes?

  There was not even talk of therapy back then. That's the challenge. So it's like now guys know, they hear of it more, they see it more.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:02Lewis Howes?

  That's if you would have said that word in the early nineties, they'd have been like, what? Like, that's a crazy thing. But it's more acceptable now. It's more talked about in culture.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:11Lewis Howes?

  You see pro athletes talking about it.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 46:13Lewis Howes?

  Artists, you know, you see other men that you might be inspired by talking about these things. But no one's talking about it in the nineties.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:21Lewis Howes?

  So who knows if you would have been receptive? I have no idea. Maybe whatever. But now these kids are, who are teenagers who are more open to it because they see men talking about it. They see Oprah talking about it with you. And they're like, oh, that's cool. That's interesting. It's not a shameful thing to talk about.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:37Lewis Howes?

  Back then it was very shameful.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely.

• 46:40Lewis Howes?

  So that's the, I think it's a challenge you guys faced culturally.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 46:44Lewis Howes?

  In the early nineties.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:46Lewis Howes?

  That it was, you couldn't show any other way than scaring people straight.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:52Lewis Howes?

  You couldn't show vulnerability because there was no model of it that was acceptable.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 46:58Lewis Howes?

  I mean, unless you guys tell me wrong, unless you saw something on TV where men were open and vulnerable and talking to Oprah and doing these things where, they were like, hey, let's talk about our fears and let's talk about our shame. No one was doing that back then, right?

• 47:10Speaker 02

  No, no, we weren't. And I mean, even now there's, there's, I mean, we're still overcoming and fighting against those stigmas. You know, especially when you factor in some of the environmental realities, right? And, you know, I think that we're definitely way further along than we ever were back then. But I, you know, also think that.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  You know, how we even got here is that we had great translators. And, you know, that's what I would have hoped that I could have been for that kid. Is how do you translate something that seems so complex and so counterintuitive into something that is, you know, you know, available to you. I mean, that's what I had in prison. I had incredible mentors. Mm hmm. And they realized that the approach to me, like, you can't scare me straight. I just came off a street where people were shooting AKs all the time. And so what they, what they saw was that if they could, you know, get me to be just curious about life and reading and things like that. And then they can challenge that part of me that was very rebellious, right?

• 48:14Speaker 01

  So I would, I would, these, these mentors, they were master teachers. And what they would do is they challenged me with books and words. And they would say, well, you didn't read that book, because if you did, what does it say in chapter eight? You know, what was, what was Socrates talking about in this dialogue? What was Malcolm talking about in this story? And I was like, oh, I actually did read this. So now we're in the dust up, right? But it was feeding that part of that young, you know, lion on the yard, all that testosterone. And it was just directed to intellect. And so I would go and have these like incredible debates in the law library with these master teachers without even knowing that they were actually teaching me. They were teaching me how to research. They were teaching me how to defend my position.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  They were teaching me how to arrive at an argument that I believed in and that I cared enough about to vocalize. And they did it in a way that was approachable. They did it in a way that was accessible. If they would have just came in like, hey, you need to do these things, you know, to change your life, instant wall would have been up, you know? And so when I think about going back, you know, it's like, okay, you go back with the wisdom of now. It's that you gotta set the table. You know, you have to set the table right for someone to come in and enjoy that spiritually rich food. And if you set the table right, the likelihood of them being able to lower those walls is higher than if you just come in hot and heavy like,

• 49:42Speaker 01

  you know, hey, if you don't do this, you're gonna tear up and destroy your life.

• 49:48Lewis Howes?

  What is the one conversation you wish you could have with every young man or woman who's going through some type of feelings of being trapped? Or they've been traumatized and they can't get past the trauma? Or the feeling of anxiety, depression, fear, uncertainty? What's the one conversation you wish you could have with any young man or woman?

• 50:12Speaker 01

  So the way that I think about it is it's more about the idea of the young man or woman that inhabits the body of adult men and women. Because what you think about this audience, inside all of us is that kid.

• 50:30Lewis Howes?

  Young little boy, girl.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  That hasn't been intended to, right? And what I would say is that one of my quotables is like, never settle for mediocrity when greatness is available. You know, that's a conversation I always have with the young people that I mentor, but also with my peers when we're in deep conversation about acknowledging what exists inside of us, which is that young person who's still looking for validation, still looking to be affirmed, still looking for somebody to bolster their confidence, is recognize that we don't have to stop loving on that little person inside of us. We don't have to stop being curious.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  One of the chapters in the book is on joy, and one of the breakdowns is about being a joy hunter. How do you go out and find that joy that feeds that inner kid? Because that's how you get to great outcomes is when you can be curious. I also talk about a mentor who I had, he worked in the prison. I'm curious if you had this type of mentor, but he was a civilian employee. And he asked me a question that literally changed the trajectory of my life.

• 51:43Lewis Howes?

  He was outside of the prison? He would come in and?

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, he came in and ran a recreation program.

• 51:49Lewis Howes?

  What did he ask you?

• 51:50Speaker 01

  He asked me, what else could I do with my mind? And this was in relation to he saw my organizational ability. Uh, because I organized the men on the yard that I went to war with. He saw my entrepreneurial skill set, cause I ran every hustle you could from the yard.

• 52:06Lewis Howes?

  In the negative sense.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  In the negative sense. It was all illegal, but you know.

• 52:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Um, and then he saw my intellectual acumen, because he would read things that I had written in the prison newspaper. And that's when he just pulled me to the side and he was like, like you run a yard, like you're, you know, I wasn't a model, just to be clear, I wasn't like a model. Prisoner, like I was drug trafficking, ordering hits. I was in full on wars on the yard. And he still saw something that was there. And he literally asked me that question, what else can you do with your mind?

• 52:40Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  That's a question I'm asking myself at fifty-three. You know, this is why I've been able to accomplish the many things that I've done. I'm still entertaining that little kid, you know, that, that nineteen-year-old boy, that twenty-two-year-old, that twenty-five-year-old. And what I would hope is that, you know, your audience takes away is that. Hidden prisons has no, no, hidden prisons have no age limit. Uh, healing has no age limit. That little kid inside of us deserves to be loved. And so those are the conversations that I, that I would have is like, yeah.

• 53:15Lewis Howes?

  Did you ever hear that from anyone when you were, you know, in your twenties about the kid inside of you deserves to be loved?

• 53:22Speaker 01

  It wasn't until I was probably in my thirties, I ran across this random book. I worked in a law library. And we would get people would donate books all the time, like literally like your books are probably being donated, which is super important. Uh, my books are being donated now, uh, in, in the prisons. And sometimes they would just get these boxes of books and they wouldn't pass them out. I come across this book called House of Healing.

• 53:45Lewis Howes?

  House of Healing.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Houses of Healing. And I started reading this book and one of the things that struck me is it talked about resolving conflict. By being able to see the little kid inside of the person you're in argument with. That changed how I oriented myself at toward the end of my incarceration. And that's the first time I was like, man, this is like you can, you can, you can love on yourself. When you see the kid and other people. And once I, once I started seeing that in other men, I was like, oh, this is a temper tantrum. Like, he doesn't want beef.

• 54:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  He's literally having a temper tantrum because he can't name the thing.

• 54:25Lewis Howes?

  Ah.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  He can't articulate that whatever happened between us caused some anxiety. Or trigger some unhealed trauma. But I can see it as clear as day. And it literally changed how I oriented myself in that environment. And, you know, I was able to resolve conflict instantaneously. By being empathetic and compassionate while still being fun and who I am.

• 54:51Lewis Howes?

  Sure, wow.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  But I don't have to tear you down or destroy you or stab you or bludgeon you. In order for us to arrive at something that honors both of our humanity.

• 55:01Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  And that showed up in work life, it shows up in my social impact work today. It's like I'm, whenever I see. An adult having a moment, I'm like, oh, they're just having that, that temper tantrum.

• 55:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  But it doesn't go away.

• 55:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Like that trauma. That we experienced early in childhood and how, how we learn to resolve that, it doesn't go away. It just. Comes up differently.

• 55:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and some people, you know, they might not have had the same traumas of you, but.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:31Lewis Howes?

  They still don't know how to deal with it.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 55:33Lewis Howes?

  Even it wasn't as extreme, right, of their trauma. It's still. We don't need to judge how much someone's had trauma or how little that they had trauma. They've experienced it, they don't know how to process it.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Our mind has no judgment with trauma, right? And that's the thing, I think culturally, we get into comparative analysis, that's just the way we tell stories. In the world, but trauma is trauma.

• 55:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  You know, and, and that, it doesn't, you don't have to go, you know, that's what a subtitle was about, the hidden prisons.

• 56:04Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Um, there's even one part where I talk about well-intended prisons. Where it's like, you don't even realize this thing is holding you back. Because on the outside, it doesn't look handful. But it's like you're in a relationship, you break up with this person. But you know, like, we're broken up, but we'll remain friends. But you say you wanna get married and you wanna have a relationship. But you have a whole thing that's anchoring your anchor to because you haven't cut it loose.

• 56:33Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  You know, it's the helicopter parent. No helicopter parent is sitting out like, hey, I'm gonna be a bad parent. They think that what they're doing is protecting. But it's preventing their child from building resilience. You know, it's it's preventing them from making choices, et cetera. It's well intended, you know, and so that's the hidden part of all of these things where we we start to compare ourselves to others' experience and we we were talking earlier where nineteen years is no different to me than nineteen minutes of losing your freedom, your dignity, being abused, whatever that brings up. Like, you don't have to compare it, like, hard is hard.

• 57:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? And so our, the way that our minds work, it's not looking at the package that is delivered in. All our mind is saying, hey, something doesn't feel right.

• 57:24Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  This isn't right. And my, I'm gonna react to that, right? And so if you if you don't even, you don't even have to compare.

• 57:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  But we've all gone through enough in life to where it shapes how we think about our experiences, hundred percent.

• 57:39Lewis Howes?

  Chris, when did you feel like you were able to start doing therapy or any type of therapy to support your journey? When was that?

• 57:47Speaker 02

  I mean, I had some therapy when I was in high school. And so I was already, like, hip to it. I was like hip to your idea. Yeah, and so it was just always something that I pursued. Um, when I was locked up at the time, um, we had access to Pell Grants and we could go to college. I believe, uh, same thing happened for Shaka. And, uh, so that was a real important thing. That was like a lifeline for me in prison to be able to take classes from professors that would come in. And, um, Yeah, so I so I took a lot of psychology classes as well as philosophy.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  And then I just kept, I've just kept it up ever since then. So, you know, I like to go to therapy. I like to also listen to podcasts that are, you know, read books and all that kind of thing. Wherever I can learn emotional intelligence tools.

• 58:40Lewis Howes?

  What if you, what do you feel like both of you would be if you didn't do therapy after your experiences?

• 58:47Speaker 02

  I think that there's such a, there's such a, a strong impulse to react as opposed to respond consciously to the, all the things that are around us. I think that based on the amount of even things that happened to me when I was young, but also from prison, you know, like I would just be, um, I would be violent and unruly.

• 59:12Lewis Howes?

  Reactive.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, reactive. And so that's really like, that's one of the, the biggest things that I'm, that I'm conscious to is trying to, um, learn to respond from an intentional mindful place.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  And, uh, yeah, like I said earlier, I think that this is one of the big problems we have as, as men is that, uh,

• 59:36Speaker 02

  is that combination of, of not having those tools uh, to overcome those traumas and learn how to respond.

• 59:46Lewis Howes?

  Where do you feel like you'd be if you didn't have some type of therapeutic expression to heal from the past?

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, so I've done, I've had a, a couple of therapists since I've been out of prison and neither of them worked.

• 1:00:01Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  For me, uh, largely because I think they just became so infatuated that I survived solitary confinement.

• 1:00:08Lewis Howes?

  It's like, tell me more.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  I kind of became their therapist and I was like, I was like, y'all should be paying me for this. Um, but, but I, I will say the, the, the self-practice of healing, um, you know, doing the hard work, being able to, you know, again, I was lucky, I was literate. You know, so I was able to read a lot of books about trauma, uh, undoing trauma, unpacking it, you know, figuring out these tools that I can use, meditation, mindfulness, journaling, uh, being in community with, you know, people who were, where I wanted to be in my life in terms of how I wanted to feel about myself, uh, people who had a healthy orientation. I would probably be like the other, you know, seventy percent of people who end up back in prison.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  You know, society is very unforgiving. Is it seventy percent of people that get out of prison? End up back in prison, absolutely. Really? Yeah, yeah, it is, um. So I'm sure I would, I would be counted amongst those, those people who went back. Because one, society is not as forgiving as we would like to believe. Um, any of us who've made anything of our lives post incarceration is because we probably had a type of determination and grit to do it the right way. Um, that superseded our ability to, to fall into the depression trap and the, the, hey, I'm a failure. You know, all the things that society is constantly telling you.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  Um, you know, even going back to shame, you know, I, I forgot about this piece. Anytime I have to fill out an application and it asks, have you ever been convicted of a felony? You know, that it brings back like, man, when does this stop? You know, when does, when is enough enough, you know, um. So I think, I think without. Yeah, it's like I already had the punishment and I'm still being punished, even though I did my time. Yeah, so, so, so we're in a society that doesn't, you know, think kindly about those of us who run afoul of the law. It's hard to get employment, housing. I mean, it's forty-four thousand collateral consequences of having a felony. And so, yeah, I think without the, you know, therapeutic outlook I've had on life.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  You know, the many failures I've had this side of incarceration. Not the, the times I wasn't called back after a great interview, the times I was denied housing, the times I was denied insurance and like the list goes on and on and on. Where those things can be very much like a trigger that, that says to you, nothing I do will ever be enough, right? Man, how do you overcome that then? Yeah, so for me, it was realizing that. People who've never had a felony have had failure. People who have never had my background have been not have not got the call back.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Um, that they have to overcome maybe different things, but part of this journey of in adulthood. It's like you have to fight for what you want in life. And so just that awareness that I'm not alone on this journey. And that while it may be specific to my experience, it's not unique in overall adult experience. That's helped me to navigate it, you know, um. And then I'll say the last part for me was that.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  I never wanted to never want or desire to ever ever have my life controlled. By somebody who's intellectually inferior to me.

• 1:03:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  And like that was just enough for me to be like, you know what? I'm never going back there. I don't know how I'm gonna do whatever it takes to stay out. But I know that I'm never going back because I never want to be in that situation again.

• 1:03:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow. I want to ask about forgiveness.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:04:04Lewis Howes?

  Because I think forgiveness is a big part to everyone's life. And I think when we don't learn to forgive specifically ourselves, we are in some type of a prison.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:04:14Lewis Howes?

  Internally. So there's forgiving others, you know, the people that maybe influenced you and your environment, friends, family, outsiders who. Influenced you to become who you were to get into that space. But then there's forgiving yourself, which I think can be even harder. Was it harder to forgive the people around you or to forgive yourself? And what allowed you to start forgiving in general?

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  I'll let you start.

• 1:04:42Speaker 02

  I probably it's harder for me to forgive myself. Than to forgive other people.

• 1:04:50Lewis Howes?

  What allowed me to forgive myself? Have you have you allowed yourself to forgive yourself?

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  I think to some degree, yeah. And I think it's a just a process that keeps ongoing.

• 1:05:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  And I think continuing to do the work of, you know, living intentionally of.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  And putting myself doing good habits, you know, all the same habits that I was working on prison in in prison um and putting myself in service to people and in positive affirming relationships and maintaining that. I think all that's helping me to forgive myself.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  It is. What about you, Shaka? Whoo forgiveness is the big one. Um, so my my journey to forgiveness has been this long, incredible winding road. And what I what I will say to to your audience is this.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  When you ask the universe to give you something, the universe is going to test that. And when you proclaim to the world that this is what I believe, your belief is going to be tested in a way that will blow your mind. But if you trust the process, it'll unlock everything you've ever thought possible for your life. Forgiveness for me was that.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  A couple of years ago, I got a letter from the man who shot me when I was seventeen years old. I saw this. This is crazy. It was. So someone shot you at seventeen? At seventeen. And then sixteen months later, I shot and tragically caused the man's death. But you didn't know who shot you? I never saw his face. Wow. Thirty second argument escalated to gunfire. He shot, drove off, I ran and went to the hospital. And all I'd heard was rumors of who this guy was. I was out after I got out of the hospital. I'm on a hut trying to find this guy. And eventually, the rumor was that he was locked up

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  for killing somebody else. Never knew if it was true or not, never encountered him in prison. Nearly thirty years later, I get a letter. This guy encountered one of my books in prison. He's reading the story of me talking about being shot. He realized he was the shooter. Wow. He writes me a letter apologizing and saying to himself that he took on the responsibility of the life decision I made that led me to prison. And he felt partially responsible for that. Wow. At the time he wrote me, he was in prison.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  When I got the letter, what it did is it triggered the old me.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  I can have this guy taken care of. Done. For little or nothing. Tomorrow. Instantaneously. Gosh. And I was like, oh, this is how the universe tests what you really believe. Oh, man. That's heavy. And so what I did is I sat down and I started to write him back. And then I decided that I didn't owe him that letter. Because if forgiveness for me was really about me. So instead, what I did is I looked him up on the computer. And I just wanted to see with this guy who had been a ghost in my life, what he looked like. Saw what he looked like, that ghost went away. And I decided to write my mother.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Because I had this experience where I thought I had forgiven my mother for the abuses and all the things as a child. And what I did is that I told her I forgave her. Because it was a noble thing and it was all about my ego. And you didn't feel it. I didn't feel it, but I also attached something to it. Is that now she has to change and become this mother that I desire. You put a condition on it. Condition. Forgiveness with a condition really isn't forgiveness. Forgiveness, right. And so that's when I realized that true forgiveness

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  is really about letting go of a moment. And that person doesn't have to change. They don't have to be receptive. They don't have to be anything. If you desire to be free, then you have to free yourself. And when I did that, it just changed the dynamic of my relationship with my mother. Where I feel more like the parent now. And the power and the beauty of it is that I get a chance to love on that little girl who was hurt. That turned into the hurt mother who hurt her kids.

• 1:09:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and you may not enjoy it, or you may wish there was a different scenario where I wish my mother could be this way. I wish my mother, I wish I wasn't parenting my mom.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:38Lewis Howes?

  You could still have that feeling and also love and accept her and forgive her.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Lewis Howes?

  And and grieve the loss of a life you wish you could have with her.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:09:47Lewis Howes?

  And also love her for who she is at the same time.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  And re- just reimagine a new way of being.

• 1:09:52Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  And when you let go, fully let go of that thing that you're holding on, life re-answers so. And whether that person is in your life or not, you're not carrying this albatross around your neck that you beat yourself up with over and over. You know, like I I learned with my mother that my mother had went through so many things in her young life. And I was like, oh, this is the universe is is delivering on everything that I said I wanted. And it's and it's really putting it front and center. You know, you want to be compassionate and empathetic and you talk about being able to love on the child. We're here, look at your mother, look at her journey.

• 1:10:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Look at her journey. Can you handle what she's went through? And see, still see her as a full human being, even though she hurt you when you was a kid? That's the power of life.

• 1:10:46Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:47Lewis Howes?

  What's the thing both of you struggle with the most after thirty three plus years?

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  What do I struggle with the most?

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  In in regards to what?

• 1:11:01Lewis Howes?

  Still, what's still something you feel like you struggle with trying to overcome or letting go of that's maybe holds you back from time to time, or you wish you didn't have to hold on to? Or you wish you weren't still reliving or experiencing or?

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that um this, one of these uh questions when I went to jail, this like code of what it is to be a man, this kind of, you know, one of these big questions, I'd always felt unresolvable to me. Um, which is.

• 1:11:33Lewis Howes?

  There's no answer.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, this, this, well, it's like the dilemma of nonviolence, right? Like, I think that's a very difficult um spot to to find the answer to for me.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz like, you know, when I was in jail, I remember distinctly feeling like this is you being between a rock and a hard place. Because if somebody, you know, threatens you or disrespects you, then you either have to meet that, you have to escalate that with violence, or you have to retreat from it. And either of those choices, both can have very profound consequences.

• 1:12:13Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  And I know that there's like, you know, great thinkers that have articulated the nonviolent, like, you know, like.

• 1:12:22Lewis Howes?

  Maybe you can't do that in prison like you could in, in outside of prison, maybe it's different, I don't know.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I, I still think it's something that, that like, you know, we carry with us, you know, and it's, and now maybe I'm doing myself a disservice by, maybe I'm nitpicking cuz, cuz I mean, I don't, I'm, I'm not violent, you know, obviously. But it's just, you know, it's just trying to kind of find like consistency, more consistency of being, feeling peaceful and having harmonious responses like day to day. So.

• 1:12:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:58Speaker 02

  I don't know if it's really a struggle, but it's something that I'm conscious of.

• 1:13:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. What about you? Is there anything you still struggle with today?

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  I, I, I think one of the, one of my biggest, the biggest things that I've been unpacking over the years is like,

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  there can be an emotional hardness to me.

• 1:13:22Lewis Howes?

  Hardness?

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:23Lewis Howes?

  Not a, not a tenderness sometimes?

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, where it's very, it can be very just kind of like,

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  I can cut things off and keep it moving and not even, not even blink. And I don't, I don't like that, you know, so I'm constantly working on that part of, of, of my healing journey. Um, and I think that's probably the biggest one is that, you know, prison, prison hardens you, like you don't. You know, it's, it's, it's one of the things I, you know, I tell people, I'm like, you know, Chris and I, I think we look like two lovely gentlemen and you'll probably have a great time hanging out with us. And then there's a language that only he and I understand. That's real, that's true, that's like, you can, the way that you orient to the world is very different than what people would imagine. When they see the smile, and they see the laughter, they see the joy.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  And then there's this other part of us that comes from that experience. And part of it is that you have to disassociate from your body so much while you're in there. Wow. Um, you know, the, the first arrest and someone strips you naked. Like there, there's, there's, in order to

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  normalize that level of depravity and that dehumanization, you have to disconnect. And then you're in this very volatile environment where there's constant violent eruptions. And you have to start emotionally hardening yourself toward, oh, this is just life on the yard. This is just what it is. You know, a guy get into an argument over two dollars that leads to bloodshed. Oh, this is a normal day in prison. And so when you experience that for a year after year after year after year, it hardens you emotionally in a way to where the work that it takes to embrace your humanity.

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  And to be compassionate and empathetic when you see someone that is hurting or who's been hurt. Or, you know, you, someone who's having that, you know, that, that adult temper tantrum that's directed towards you. And to still be able to love that person and not just cut them off and be like, move on. And not just go back in that old way of being. Yeah, where they no longer exist, right? And so that is the toughest part of, of anything else that's been hard is like, the toughest part has been that. And how I've, you know, saw for it is like, you know, one, being a mentor to young people, being a dad,

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  uh, being a husband, um, having my little, I have little neighbors, they're like, they're twins, they're like, three, and then the oldest boy is like five. And they love me. I think it's the hair, but they like, if I'm outside and they see me and they just run up and they're like, you know? And so it's those things that that I am I embrace and I intentionally seek out to kind of soften that that part of me. Um, but that's tough, you know, it's tough to like, let that go.

• 1:16:27Lewis Howes?

  I mean, how do you, I mean, speaking of fatherhood, both of you guys are parents. How do you, two kids each, how do you both deal with being fathers? You know, to to younger kids? Who learn about your experience, who like, how do you navigate those conversations, but also parenting without feeling shame? Or fear for your children, for their lives?

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:52Lewis Howes?

  Like how both of you navigated parenthood now?

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think for me, it's it's been, um, Dr. Shafali.

• 1:16:59Lewis Howes?

  She's great.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, her her book on conscious parenting.

• 1:17:01Lewis Howes?

  She's great.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  And one of the things that she just talked about is like, your children aren't your children, right? It's like, reminded me of Khalil Gibbons, the prophet, and it's kind of like, we just get to bear witness to their lives. You know, I constantly remind myself that he has his own journey. You know, um, and then what I've done as a dad is I've just been intentional about sharing, hey, here's what my life was. Here's where I come from.

• 1:17:27Lewis Howes?

  What if that's really painful for your kids? What if it's really hard for them, like, to hear that?

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Lewis Howes?

  They love you, they care about you.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Lewis Howes?

  How do you navigate that?

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  I think kids need to hear her things.

• 1:17:37Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  You know, I think it builds resilience. I think they'll be fine. Um, I think we live in a culture now that's kind of soft.

• 1:17:44Lewis Howes?

  Protecting them.

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, with with my son, I was like, well, here here's where here's what happened, where I knew that I had to tell him the story. Kindergarten. Taking him to school. Literally like a night prayer. Oprah Winfrey was on CNN with Van Jones and Ava DuVernay.

• 1:18:06Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  And Van asked her a question about her relationship with me.

• 1:18:11Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  And she got so excited and she was like, oh, my God, I read his book, et cetera, et cetera. I get to the school the next day, I'm standing there dropping my son off, one of the parents comes up. It was like, oh my God, I heard Oprah Winfrey talking about you last night on the news. And it was a moment where I should have felt like pride, but I instantaneously thought about my son. Cause I was like, oh, parents are like, hey, your classmates dad was on the news and by the way, he was in prison for this. And I instantaneously was like, you know what? He's in kindergarten, I'll just tell him what it is in that language. And then over the years, I've just continued to do it. And like now, he probably can tell my story better than me. Cause he, I bring him to the events.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  I bring him into the other side of it. So he used to come to my job where I work with men and women coming out of prison. And jails, he goes into community events where I'm talking about gun violence and the things, none of which his life looks like. Um, but because that has happened consistently on his journey. He's now mature, you know, to the point where we can have real discussions about it, you know? And I just think that's what, you know, whether it's any other thing, right? Is, is with, with, with kids is, you know, sex is internet is all these things they're gonna, like, we can't. We can't protect them the way maybe our parents could have protected us a little bit. Cause it's just so invasive, right?

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  And they have so much access. So I just think as, as a parent, you know, figure out the right language. You know, consult with professionals who understand that part, you know? Uh, reading Dr. Spotty's book was great for me and, and some of her stuff, but. I, I think we're in a, in a world where we have to beat the internet to our children.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Get ahead of it.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we got, we have to.

• 1:20:04Speaker 02

  How have you dealt with it, Chris? Yeah, I mean, I have two children, so my oldest is 28, my youngest is 16. I think trying to be, um, really human with both my kids and, and trying to have really honest relationships with them. Um, reading books, getting advice from different parents, but really from all the lessons I've learned from therapy. Like, I think parenting, uh, that relationship I have with my kids, I see it as just like. I see it as an opportunity to be, um.

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  To be honest, to be vulnerable with them, to open the door and let them know that they can share anything they want with me. And I just, I take it as like a huge responsibility that I want to be present in their lives and I want to show up for them in the most loving way that I can and have a close relationship where they feel they can tell me anything.

• 1:21:01Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious about both of you guys' purpose since like the moment you knew you were getting out of jail. First off, can you share what it was like either getting that moment that you knew when you were going to get out and the day you got out? Can you both share that feeling? Were you scared? Were you excited? Was it like confusing? What was that like first?

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't wait to hear Chris. I'm always curious like how other guys experience.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  What was it like? Yeah, well, you remember you were there when I got out. Yeah.

• 1:21:28Lewis Howes?

  But what was it like for you? I mean, maybe it's exciting, maybe it's fear. I don't know. It's like, could be a number of things.

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  It was, it was incredible. Coming home, you know, we, we got together with the siblings. We're all at the house. They all came back from the different places and both of our parents brought me in. I remember Louis was there and I came in and we ordered a pizza and we all cried. You know, all of our siblings, our four siblings, we all.

• 1:21:53Lewis Howes?

  We made a sign like welcome home.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:56Lewis Howes?

  And what was it like for you? Just like even just getting out for the first time?

• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  That's like, yeah, it was, it was, it was exhilarating. It was also, it was a lot of emotions. It was a big relief, but it was also like, and I think I've heard Shaka speak about this, there was a period of years where I've always felt like I was worried about being out of place, as they say, right? And you spoke about this too.

• 1:22:22Lewis Howes?

  What does that mean, out of place?

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  Like always on tip shows and like wondering, or you're walking down the street and somebody walks and they come close to you and you, and if they would have done that in the yard, you're like, that's disrespect, but they're not even thinking about it. There's different rules and you're, so you're like constantly, like I was constantly triggered when I first got out, like I had to stop myself from being like super aggressive because when you're in the yard, you learn to carry yourself in a certain way and you stare people down and you like. You have to like huff up and be like I had developed certain ways of being and communicating and of carrying myself and to try to I couldn't just change that right away, you know? And so I was really triggered on the street when I first got on the street. But of course I had all these other great emotions too, like obviously, right?

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  You know, like when getting home, feeling that freedom was was wonderful. And then, um, but you had asked, I think you also asked about what was the vision or what was the purpose?

• 1:23:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What was, did you have a purpose?

• 1:23:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:21Lewis Howes?

  After like, once you knew you were going home, did you have a vision for your life? Or you're just like, I'm not sure yet. And I'm assuming having a vision and a purpose is going to support you with not being the seventy percent statistic that goes back

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:35Lewis Howes?

  to jail, I'm assuming, but.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know, before I got locked up, my purpose was to be a great classical violinist. And while I was locked up, that kind of changed and I had a vision about becoming a great jazz violinist.

• 1:23:48Lewis Howes?

  For people that don't know the story, you were classically trained violinist for most of your life, very gifted. But then you went to jail for four and a half years and joined the prison band and learned lots of different type of musical

• 1:24:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:24:05Lewis Howes?

  skills

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:24:06Lewis Howes?

  with inmates who taught you funk and rap and blues and jazz and hip hop and soul and R and B and all these different things. You learn jazz in jail.

• 1:24:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:17Lewis Howes?

  Which is pretty fascinating.

• 1:24:18Speaker 02

  It's wild.

• 1:24:20Lewis Howes?

  So his greatest musical teacher, no, he had great musical teachers growing up classically.

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:24Lewis Howes?

  But to expand creatively, his greatest musical teachers were in jail.

• 1:24:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:24:30Lewis Howes?

  Which made him the musician he is today and the teacher and educator today.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  I fell in love with the music, but I also fell in love with like the people that showed me the music and like the culture that was behind it and the feeling that I had of being in the room during the church service and making music in in these other ways. And there was like an insight into. It's like you're looking at the world through this window and then, you know, for years and you turn around and it's like, whoa, this is a whole other thing. Which was, and uh, you know, it was also Appalachian music too, right? You know? But especially a lot of Black American music and Black American culture. I mean, that was just a eye opener for me as a kid. You know, and um, and it was different times back then than it is now.

• 1:25:16Speaker 02

  But so, but it, it would be proper to say it was an awakening for me, but that's also a little bit awkward for me to talk about. Because, I mean, just that whole experience because I'm sensitive to wanting to be respectful of what it is and not to be posturing around the whole idea. You know what I mean? And so, but, but that's part of why the vision that I had was important to me actually. Because it's like, I want to honor what happened here. And so I don't even need to talk about it to honor it. I can play music and because the people that can recognize that, there's no word that needs to be spoken. You know, and so.

• 1:25:59Lewis Howes?

  Well, I mean, before you go on there, what would you say to that, Shaka? Because I've always encouraged him to speak more about it. And maybe I should stop telling him to do that. But I think when he speaks about it, from the experience of learning this style of music, from some of his greatest mentors in the prison, I feel like he's honoring those men as well. While educating the world about those lessons, but again, no one wants to listen to a younger brother, so. What you think, maybe, and maybe it's, you know, in his own time, or maybe it makes sense for him not to do that.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  No, I, I almost think there's like almost two different things. There's the musicianship and artistry is what I'm hearing. It's like, there's a sacred exchange to have. And there's a protective element around that, if I'm not mistaken. That's kind of what I feel or what I, what I sense and I, and I truly get that. And then I also think about the stories that go untold. Um, and that if they are told, it helps so many people, right?

• 1:26:58Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Uh, I'm very protective of my mentors who guided me to, to reading and who guided me to writing and what I, what I knew is that I wanted to honor these men.

• 1:27:10Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  And that I mention their name and rooms that they can't even imagine themselves ever being in. Uh, because what it speaks to is the humanity of any of us who have walked those halls of, you know, halls of shame and, and, and the punitive halls that we existed in, you know? And so I think there's, there's a, um, a beauty and a magic to holding on to that sacred. And then I think there's a power and responsibility with how do we articulate that in a way that really helps people see the humanity.

• 1:27:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  That art galvanizes in an environment where sometime and oftentimes it's the early hope that people have.

• 1:27:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  You know, it's the early light that we have is those moments when you do a show for the prison.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  And you see people just like let loose.

• 1:28:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  And the tension goes down and there's no knife fights and they're just like, oh my God, to see that, you know? And so I think it's a duality there, um, but all things in their own time.

• 1:28:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  You know, and I, and I think playing the music has been, I mean, I'm so intrigued by your art and, and so appreciative that I get a chance to bear witness to it and, and your journey of how you got to it. So I think that's the, the power.

• 1:28:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:28:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's probably, it's not that I don't want to, I appreciate, thank you for that first of all. And it's not that I don't want to tell the story. It's what I want to tell it right.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like it's because it feels like a, like a heavy responsibility to talk about. But actually, I mean, the film that we're putting out, I think does do it justice because we tell it through poetry and we've put like so much work into it.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:53Speaker 02

  And that's why.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:54Speaker 02

  And, and, and maybe if I were to write a book or, you know?

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  You know, the, the question you asked about, you know, anticipating getting out and, and the purpose part, right?

• 1:29:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  So I, you know, I started writing in solitary confinement. And initially I was writing to save my own life. I call it my write or die moment. And I was journaling and I realized I had never accomplished anything. And so. Never finished anything. Never finished anything, right? And so the the idea was like, just finish one thing. And if you finish one thing, you can turn your life around. That just happened to be a book. And then I was like, okay, well, now what do I want to do with this with this book, right? What I want to do with my writing, and that's when I started to write down the most absurdly ambitious, audacious goals ever. I want to be a bestselling author. I want to meet Oprah. Like, I would, I would just write it down, no matter how wild it sounded, right?

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Um, and and then I fell into a bout of depression. You know, we talked earlier about being depressed in prison. So the prison prison itself is depressing. Yeah. But there's another level of depression you can get to where you just don't, you can't even get off the bunk. You know, you're just like, I just want to give up. I just, I don't want to be in this anymore. Yeah. Um, and it was because I realized I had this gift all along. And I couldn't give birth to it. Oh, what was the gift that you couldn't give birth to? Writing. Writing. I had wrote those letters and my family would be like, write me more letters. They're so detailed. I'm not thinking of myself as a writer. You know, Tom asked me, what else could I do with my mind? I'm just writing prison articles.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  I'm not thinking I can become a real writer. And so, but once I I went through that depression, which was probably about a year, I wrote, I had wrote two books, started a third, fell into depression, couldn't finish it. And then eventually I got, I don't know, other side of it, I went back to my books. You know, As a Man Think of, The Secret, all these different books, I would go back and read them and, you know, Nelson Mandela's, you know, Long Road to Freedom, I would just go back and read these books and read them, trying to get my my brain to move forward. And then eventually I was like, okay, finish the third book, finish the fourth book. Started a publishing company in prison, the same year I went up for parole, which was two thousand eight. Published my first book from prison, got sued by the prison, got denied parole,

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  went back up two thousand nine, got denied parole again. And I almost gave up. You know, at that point, I had seventeen years in, I knew how to do time. Uh, no, actually, I had eighteen years and I knew how to do time. And I almost gave up. And then I went back and.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  How I felt when I got the news that I was getting out. I will never forget, I came in the unit. Officer, she was joking with me. She was like, hey, I got something big to tell you. Me and her had kind of a flirty relationship. So I'm like, I don't know what it is, you know? She was like, meet me down at the cubicle. Went down to the cubicle. She was like, they're letting you go home. Wow. And I was just like, whoa. And so I went around to the counselor. I wanted to ask the counselor, but I didn't want to kind of, you know, reveal that she had already told me. So I go in, I'm asking the counselor some random stuff. Hey, can you check my account? And she was like, oh, actually, you're you're leaving. You'll be transferring in a couple of weeks. You're going to Detroit for the reentry program. You're going home. Wow.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  And I was like, yo, this is crazy. So. This is real. This is real. So I go back around to the cubicle. Yard opens up. My brother-in-law was there and a friend from our neighborhood. They were both there serving time. I went out and walking and talking to yard. I'm like, yo, I think I'm going home. They said it. I don't got the paperwork yet, though. And so we walk and talk and, you know, they're excited for me. I'm excited, you know? And come back in and when they passed out mail call, they gave me the paper. They was like, you're going home, June twenty second, two thousand and ten. Wow. One day after my thirty eighth birthday. Wow. And so I literally called my dad. My dad answered the phone and I was like, Dad, they I got my parole.

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  And my dad let out a guttural cry. A rejoice that he had held pent up for nineteen years. And it was like, holy smokes, you know? And so I knew when I got out, my plan was I'm gonna get out. I'm gonna hustle these books out of the trunk of the car. Get out, I'm gonna just sell these novels and eventually I'll I'll make it. And so I get parole. They take me from the prison to the parole office. I get to the parole office and I'm inside. And I literally asked the lady, hey, can I go outside? Really? And she was like, what are you talking about? Like, you're free. You go where you wanna go. Wow. And I was like, yo, I'm still ask permission. So

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Oh. I get there and I'm outside and uh my son's mom comes to, you know, pick me up at the time. And she has the books with her. And I sold my first book in a parking lot. Literally, literally. I sold the first book in the parking lot. I still have, it's the funniest picture ever. I got on these big baggy shorts that were probably from the nineties, an oversized t-shirt. And I sold that first book fifteen years ago. I've been selling books ever since. Um, and so when I, when I came home, that's what I, I thought that was my purpose was just to sell these novels. Yeah. And I ended up writing, writing my wrongs after prison.

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  And that book skyrocketed, but I wrote it for that reason where I would go and do these talks. And people would say, you don't sound like someone who's been in prison. And they meant it as a compliment. Yeah. But I was like, I just left some of the most brilliant scholars, some of the greatest legal minds, some of the greatest writers, thinkers, comedians, you name it. Those were the men I served time with. Yeah. That's what inspired me to write, writing my wrongs. I wanted people to understand that whatever landed us there was not the defining part of who we all are. We're still humans. We're dreamers, builders, doers. We're all these things. And to tell that story. And so once that happened, that book came out.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  People would come up with me and they would just tell me all type of stories. And in the last couple of years, I've really been questioning what has been my purpose all along. I thought it was to sell novels. I haven't done a novel deal yet. You know, I thought it was prison reentry. That's really not what that was about for me. That was about my friends are incarcerated. What I realize is that my purpose in life is to help people find the door to their own personal freedom. Like, that's what I know with certainty. There's like, there's a lot of things that I don't know.

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  Um, and there's a few things that I know with certainty, and one of them is I am searching what I'm here to do.

• 1:36:03Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  In the world.

• 1:36:04Lewis Howes?

  And that can be expressed through different avenues.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:36:07Lewis Howes?

  Through books, or through work, or through speaking, or all different things.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:10Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting that you got clear with that purpose. And I think, we're going back to depression, talking about how depressing prison is.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:17Lewis Howes?

  But I think most people are living in depression in their own prison. And I think a lot of people are depressed because they are discounting themselves, or doing a disservice from actually expressing their truest gifts.

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:36:29Lewis Howes?

  And finding their purpose. And they know, like you said, you knew there was more inside of you. But you weren't doing it. You weren't accomplishing things. You weren't finishing things.

• 1:36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:38Lewis Howes?

  And that depression like captured you. I think a lot of people are depressed because they know they're doing a disservice to what they truly want to be doing in the world.

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:48Lewis Howes?

  And so, the purpose side of things, how do you go, I mean, both of you have a purpose now. It's so funny, you say that you have so many synchronicities and similarities because

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:36:57Lewis Howes?

  I have vivid memories of Chris after he got out of prison. He made a, uh, his first album, I think it was a CD called Ten Yard. I think it was your first one, right? It was your first album called

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  Second one, but yeah.

• 1:37:09Lewis Howes?

  Second one. I mean, you have what, almost twenty albums, nineteen albums? But his second album was called Ten Yard, one of his experiences in the yard. And I remember him doing these little bar, restaurant, clubs right afterwards.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:22Lewis Howes?

  And taking his CDs and just handing them to people and selling them one by one.

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:26Lewis Howes?

  You sold books one by one.

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:37:28Lewis Howes?

  You were both expressing your art after jail.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:33Lewis Howes?

  And doing it one by one, trying to make a difference and an impact.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:36Lewis Howes?

  And today, both of you, you know, Chris has taught over a thousand schools, teaching music education, expressing yourself through music. He has a camp called the Creative Strings Workshop.

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:37:48Lewis Howes?

  It's a yearly camp that brings musicians in from around the world and to express themselves creatively. You do this through speaking, through writing, through workshops, through all these different things. So you guys are both doing your purpose in a beautiful way, and I'm grateful for that. Um, but a lot of people, I feel like Don't even know what their purpose is, or even if they do know it, they discount themselves from actually pursuing it.

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:12Lewis Howes?

  They live in fear, and that's a prison of itself in my mind.

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and you know, I think that's what, you know, if if people take nothing else from this this conversation, uh, what I would hope they would take from it is life as a metaphor.

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  We were, we've done the hard work for the audience, um, and we were, we were physically incarcerated and yet we found a freedom through artistic expression, through meditation, mindfulness, community, all the things that we've talked about.

• 1:38:43Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  Those are things that are replicable and can be easily modeled in any facet of life. You know, so if there's something that you feel is holding you back, like you have to, one, you just have to, you have to call that thing what it is. And then you get a chance to decide, what are you gonna do about it? You know, and and that's the beauty of like, you know, where we started from, we're not supposed to be sitting here. Based on the statistics, you know, we're sitting here because we made choices in spite of, you know, we made the the hard, the harder choices to try to figure out how to do your purpose when you're not getting the big checks. You know, you're selling two books and two CDs and, you know, three people are showing up to your show and you gotta perform like it's

• 1:39:29Speaker 01

  three thousand or, you know, two people show up to your your book signing and and yet you gotta keep making just one step after the next. And for for me, it's like you count all those victories. And you're a clue enough of them and you'll see life really, you know, it's just like training, right? It's like you live, you start to get stronger and you're like, oh, okay, I'm I'm getting some action, but you gotta be consistent.

• 1:39:53Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  To get the strength that you desire, you know, so, yeah, life is metaphor.

• 1:39:58Lewis Howes?

  I want you guys, I'm gonna have you guys, Chris is gonna play a song and you're gonna read a poem here in a second. Before we do that, I want people to know more about your book. It's called How to Be Free. Again, if you wanna be free in your life, this is the book for you, a proven guide to escaping life's hidden prisons. So make sure you guys check out. This book that breaks down a lot of the different strategies on how to create personal freedom from the strategies and techniques that you've talked about as well. Chris has a movie called Redemption Time and you can go to redemptiontime.com. It's touring throughout the US this year, next year. And people can learn about it by going there and checking it out, but it's a 70 minute performance

• 1:40:42Lewis Howes?

  film featuring poet Jimmy Santiago Baca, who was Chris's poetry mentor that you found his poetry in jail. That really gave you some personal freedom. Along with Christian Howes, Jazz Violinis, and two were formerly incarcerated artists who transformed their lives through creativity. And through poetry, jazz, and their own stories, they reveal the trauma of incarceration and the redemption power of art. Something you talked about is the importance of art and mentors in everyone's life.

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:41:12Lewis Howes?

  By having a place to experience art and express art and having a place to find mentors and connect with mentors is a powerful thing. And I think this conversation, you two are powerful mentors for anyone watching and listening right now.

• 1:41:26Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:41:26Lewis Howes?

  And if anyone's struggling in isolation, I highly encourage you reach out to a Boys and Girls Club if you're a teen, reach out to local mentors if you're an adult. Seek mentors online, read books, watch movies that support your critical thinking. But find mentors and express your art.

• 1:41:45Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:41:45Lewis Howes?

  And I've got a couple of final questions at the end, but I want you guys to Chris has got a song that he wrote that's in this film, so I want people to hear this. Shaka is gonna read a poem that you've never read before.

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  Never read.

• 1:41:59Lewis Howes?

  This is a first time experience of you guys performing together.

• 1:42:02Speaker 02

  Okay, so this is a poem written by Jimmy Santiago Baca, and I wrote the music to go behind a lot of his poetry in our film that's called Redemption Time. And this is like the redemptive moment at the end where Jimmy gets out. So the film has like, you know, 10 to 12 different like episodes over 70 minutes. And each one of them address like different themes of manhood, trauma, and all these kinds of things. But this is like the The redemptive moment. Okay. I thought it would be cool to have Shaka read the poem and try to do my best to kind of truly honor it. Thank you. I'll try to render it here with just the fells. So.

• 1:43:10Speaker 01

  When I came out of prison,

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  I didn't have a plan to go back to crime.

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  I came out of prison with one gift.

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  And I'm about to tell you what that gift is. Not a gun, not a criminal, but a gift. I'm offering this poem. I'm offering this poem to you, since I have nothing else to give. Keep it like a warm coat when the winter comes to cover you, or like a pair of thick socks that cannot fight through. I love you.

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  I got nothing else to give you.

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  So it's a pot full of yellow corn to warm your belly in the winter. It's a scarf to wrap up around your head on windy days. I love you. Keep it. Treasure this as you would if you were lost, needing direction in the wilderness that life becomes when you're mature.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  Tucked away like a cabin in the trees, you come knocking. I'm gonna answer you. I'll give you directions. I'll let you warm yourself by this fire. I'll let you rest by this fire. I'll make you feel safe because I love you. And this is all I gotta give.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  I ain't got nothing else. And all anyone needs to live and to go on living inside when the world outside no longer cares if you live or die, remember, remember, remember, I love you. I love you. I love you.

• 1:45:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:58Speaker 01

  My brother. So good, man, so good. Thank you. Thank you. And thanks to Jimmy Santiago Baca for that. Big shout out to Jimmy, this incredible writing and such a gift.

• 1:46:10Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  And I love you. I love you, man. This has been, wow, like so cool to meet you today, man. Likewise, brother. It was good.

• 1:46:18Lewis Howes?

  What's been the bit, what opened up for both of you while playing that with each other? Man. After this conversation and after, you know, what you've talked about in your book and what you've gone through for 10 years in your movie, what opened up for both of you during that moment?

• 1:46:33Speaker 01

  Oh, man, this is my brother. This is my brother, man, and we're super proud of you and what you're doing in the world and honored to know that our stories are, you know, trusted, you know, and your art is, you know, giving birth to new listeners that'll hear our stories and, you know, to help a lot of people. So I feel this true kindred spirit and brotherhood. Um, you know, we've been through something that most people can't comprehend. Um, but we both know that language, both spoken and unspoken. And so to be able to share this moment with you, man, is enriching my life. So thank you, my brother.

• 1:47:17Speaker 02

  That's powerful.

• 1:47:18Speaker 01

  Thank you. Beautiful man.

• 1:47:21Lewis Howes?

  What opened up for you, Chris? What was during playing that?

• 1:47:26Speaker 02

  Playing it?

• 1:47:26Lewis Howes?

  And here in here in shock, and just doing this experience together.

• 1:47:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it felt, it felt, it felt great. It brings me back to what you were talking about, because when you're in jail, you make do.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:47:37Speaker 02

  And I was like, I'm not gonna let any of that stuff, like I got the violin, we're just gonna make this happen.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. One take, first time.

• 1:47:45Lewis Howes?

  That's great. Beautiful. It's powerful. It's powerful, man. I could feel it, man. I could feel it. Wow. That's cool. That's cool.

• 1:47:51Speaker 02

  But, but also, yeah, I mean, really getting to meet you, and I've listened to a bunch of your stuff and heard you talk, beginning to speak to you and be with you in the room, it feels like a homecoming for me. It, it gives me a lot of openings in my heart about how I can lean heavier into telling my own story, because I think you do it so well.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:48:12Speaker 02

  And so it feels like a great encouragement for me. And, and, and not only to share my story, but to step into more community with more folks than are, that are doing this work, and, and just to lean into it more, the fullest expression of who I am, getting clearer on whatever that purpose is and how I can show it. So, thank you, brother, for, for opening it up for me.

• 1:48:38Lewis Howes?

  Of course. I've been wanting both of you guys to connect for a while. I've been telling you guys about each other for a while. I'm curious, you both gave a piece of advice to your younger self at 19. If you could, I wonder if you could both give one piece of advice to what you see in another? What do you see in Chris that you see he should keep continuing to do, or encouragement, or?

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I would say my, my, um, my, my words of wisdom and, and take them as you, as you may.

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  You have such an incredible, powerful gift. And coupling that gift with a unbelievable story of reimagining a life for yourself. Like, there's power in that. There's power in it, not just for you, but for others. And you get a chance to really help other people salvage their lives, reimagine their lives, and think about those who are brothers and sisters who we've left behind. And knowing that they're counting on us and looking forward to us being able to tell their stories and to telling of our own stories. And so what I would encourage is to really embrace it. You know, embrace the power of your own story to help others.

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  And to make sure, in the doing of that, just create space for yourself to breathe and to, you know, reach out and just, you know, even if it's after talk and say, "Hey, bro, I just got off the stage. I just need an ear." I'm here to be able to hold space for you. And there's many others who would be honored to hold space for you. And I would just encourage you to keep imagining different ways to tell that story and to tell the many stories. And obviously, you know, we'll collab on some stuff. But I would just say lean into it. You know, like, you've earned it. You've earned the right to tell the story. You've got the stripes, you know, you've got the wounds, you've got the things.

• 1:50:37Speaker 01

  And so now, there's an opportunity to, you know, relieve some of that by helping others never have to endure it. And so, that's the power that you hold in your hand, in your violin, in your story, your voice. And lastly, I would just say lean on the wisdom of your younger brother. He really has not got here without a dedication to an incredible craft. He's built something that's, you know, monumental, historical. And his leadership is proven, he has a proven track record. And, you know, there's power in leaning into the little brother who's willing to help you and support you when you're trying. It's a gift.

• 1:51:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks. Thank you. I think a lot of men are going to see you as... Somebody who represents strength. And to you get to be able to define manhood, for generations of men, right? And I think that you do, I think you do a great job of that. I think you come across as being very naturally who you are. And I think that who you are is very multi-dimensional. And it's warm and it's soulful and it's empathic and compassionate and also strong. I think giving men in explicit terms, talking about these things,

• 1:52:03Speaker 02

  talking about fear, talking about shame, talking about guilt, talking about how do you, you know, respond to the urge to be violent, you know? And kind of this, these, this, if we say the warped definition of what it is to be a man, you know? How does a man on the street going to deal with, if they're disrespected? How are they going to address that without putting themselves into a self-destructive cycle? Without destroying themselves, really, without throwing away their own life? You know, how can, how can, how can? I think that you already are doing that. I think you're already speaking to men from that.

• 1:52:46Speaker 02

  And I already see all that in you and hear it in your stories. But I just want to reflect that back to you and for you to know that that's how you're received. And in case that makes you want to lean into any of those themes in explicit ways. And you might want to ask people that question. Your audience, whoever you want to speak to and whoever you want to hear your message, you might want to ask them, what are you looking for from me? What are the answers you want me to answer? Because I know you get a lot of inspiration from these books. So I'm already thinking about what's your next book? Maybe it's gonna, maybe some of those answers to what you're gonna write about is gonna come from.

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  People in your audience.

• 1:53:25Lewis Howes?

  The advice that both of you guys are giving or what you see in each other is what I want the audience also to know that they should be listening for themselves.

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:53:34Lewis Howes?

  Because what you guys are speaking to each other, I'm assuming everyone listening or watching has some type of insecurity or doubt or hidden prison. That's holding them back from pursuing their greatest version of themselves.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:46Lewis Howes?

  Their gifts, their potential. And there's an unlock for everyone watching, listening, including all three of us.

• 1:53:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:53:53Lewis Howes?

  To our next level of greatness.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:55Lewis Howes?

  Which you talked about. And so to to wrap things up, I'd love for you both to share your three lessons you would leave with the world. Imagine you get to live as long as you want to live from this moment until the last day. And if you could share three lessons, three truths to the world. Simple as they want them to be or profound as they want them to be, what would those three lessons be? And maybe you've already shared them, so just recap them.

• 1:54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:20Lewis Howes?

  And what is each one of your definition of greatness as well? So, three lessons you would leave with the world from your experience and that definition of greatness. I'll let you start.

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  Three lessons, I I would say, um, the first lesson

• 1:54:39Speaker 01

  is to embrace this magic carpet ride we call life with a spirit of gratitude. I'd be thankful Lily for every moment you're in, good, bad, indifferent. Um, it just makes life so incredible. Show up in service, the second lesson will be, show up in service of others. Uh, meet a need that someone has without expectation of anything in return. And the universe will reward you abundantly uh for your care and consideration. Um, the third thing would be.

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  Read if you're literate, or listen if you're not, um, to books and stories and journeys of other people. I think that's the, one of the most magical gifts that we have is access to stories of others who have walked similar, different paths than we've walked. You just learn so much, um, from life, uh, through other people's stories. And the third part, what does greatness mean? Um, greatness to me means that there is an acceptance that inside of us, there is a connective tissue

• 1:56:00Speaker 01

  that is rooted in whatever the creative force in the world, we imagine it to be, whether it's God, or any other entity or way of being, but there's a connectedness that we have. That is the power source that allows us to imagine in birth into the world, anything that our hearts can dream of and desire. That's what greatness is to me. Like when I think about my journey, where I started from, where I'm at today is that I lean into this idea that there is a greater power that always wants the best for us. And if we just attach ourselves to that energy, anything is possible.

• 1:56:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's beautiful. Chris, three lessons you would leave behind, what are those for you?

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  Lean into your relationships and make them as deep as you possibly can, whether it's your, you know, your kids, your parents, your brother, your siblings, your friends, your students, the people that work with you, your colleagues. Those relationships are the place where you get to really express yourself fully and feel a lot of connection and a lot of purpose. I would say constantly work to re-articulate your vision or your purpose for your, for your life. If it means every day you think about what am I committed to? What do I want to stand for? What are the things I want to feel give? And what are the things I want to contribute?

• 1:57:33Speaker 02

  Third lesson, I'll go with gratitude, as Shaka said. I'll say, if you can try to look for something to be excited about and to feel that joy, like the day that we walked out of prison, then look for it.

• 1:57:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:52Speaker 02

  My definition of greatness, I think that just if I were to tie it to some of the men that I've met in prison and what I saw in them as greatness was the ability to really deeply feel whatever it is that you feel, whatever suffering that you feel, and whatever fear that you feel, whatever anxiety that you feel, and still be willing to push through to try to make the best of yourself that you can. I think that's a representation of greatness.

• 1:58:29Lewis Howes?

  Nice. Well, for everyone watching and listening, I hope this gave them a sense of peace and hopefully a path towards freedom. And hopefully it gave both of you another connecting element of telling your stories to feel more free, feel more alive, and know that both of you are doing an amazing job of being of service to people watching and listening. So I acknowledge you both. Thank you guys both for being here.

• 1:58:53Speaker 02

  Thanks so much for having us, man.

• 1:58:54Lewis Howes?

  I acknowledge you, bro.

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  Appreciate it.

• 1:58:56Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 1:59:40Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.