446. Israel Bombs Qatar: Where Does Impunity End?

Is Netanyahu’s illegal bombing of Doha yet another death knell for international law? Why is the West’s response so lacklustre? Is Trump secretly furious with Netanyahu? Join Rory and Alastair as they answer all these questions and more. Join The Rest Is Politics Plus: Start your FREE TRIAL at therestispolitics.com to unlock exclusive bonus content – including Rory and Alastair’s miniseries – plus ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, an exclusive members’ newsletter, discounted book prices, and a private chatroom on Discord. The Rest Is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy. The Rest Is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy. Fuse are giving away FREE TRIP+ membership for all of 2025 to new sign ups 🎉 TRIP+ gets you ad-free listening, discounts, and early access to episodes and pre-sale tickets for live shows! To sign up and for terms and conditions, visit ⁠https://www.fuseenergy.com/politics⁠ ⚡ Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ nordvpn.com/restispolitics It's risk-free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee ✅ For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com Social Producer: Celine Charles Assistant Producer: Evan Green Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Exec Producers: Tony Pastor, Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Creve and of course the thing flashed up saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN and it was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not already sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/rusthispolitics. That's nordvpn.com/rusthispolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

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• 2:13Rory Stewart?

  Welcome to an emergency episode of The Rest Is Politics with me Rory Stewart.

• 2:18Alastair Campbell?

  And me Alastair Campbell.

• 2:20Rory Stewart?

  And we're talking today just after the news of a Israeli strike on Doha, of which explosion having happened, a friend of mine in fact was driving past the building when the explosion happened. Pretty terrifying experience. People still struggling. I'm getting a lot of WhatsApps from friends in Qatar at the moment, trying to work out exactly what's going on. Who was killed? How many people were killed? Different stories coming in, but one thing is absolutely clear. This is an Israeli strike against Kataric territory, middle of the city. Benjamin Netanyahu has come out and said today's action was a wholly independent Israeli operation.

• 3:04Rory Stewart?

  Israel initiated it, Israel conducted it and Israel takes full responsibility. And it is the most extraordinary game changer because until this moment, I cannot think of another example of Western allied states attacking a relatively stable Western ally remotely in this way. People will remember, Israel has in the past mounted strikes against, for example, Lebanon, which hosted Hezbollah, Gaza repeatedly, Yemen under a Houthi government, Syria under a government which of course originally had links with al Qaeda

• 3:48Rory Stewart?

  and of course against Iran, but this is a very, very different situation. This is a strike where they claim they were striking senior Hamas figures who have been in Qatar openly, no secret. It's part of negotiating, just as Qatar has hosted other groups in the past, including the Taliban. And I think shockwaves through the world. Over to you.

• 4:11Alastair Campbell?

  I mean, that point about

• 4:14Alastair Campbell?

  them knowing who they are and where they are, I think is a very important one because if it is the Hamas negotiating team, these are the people that have been in a hotel, the same hotel as Israelis have been in. With these Qataris, Egyptians, and I think Americans also, kind of shuttling between them, trying to get the ceasefire and trying to get release of the hostages. And it was interesting, Antonio Guterres' reaction, one of the many, many, many reactions that have come out condemning what's happened. He made the point that Qatar has been playing an extraordinarily positive role in trying to get the ceasefire and get the hostages out. Meanwhile, I thought you read out there Netanyahu's statement. Is that because they

• 4:59Alastair Campbell?

  are waiting to see what the Americans say? We don't yet know the extent to which the Americans were pre-warned. It would make, I guess it would make Trump look weak if he came out and said, I didn't know. He'd then have to be put on the spot to know exactly what he thought. Thus far, he's been incredibly supportive of Netanyahu. But even, was it yesterday or the day before, Trump was talking about, I think we're getting closer to a ceasefire, I think we're getting closer to a deal. This has killed any talk of a ceasefire and any talk of a deal, for some time, I would say, stone dead. When you, when you look at the, the, the range of voices, straight out, I mean, the Qataris and UAE, they're

• 5:42Alastair Campbell?

  not, you know, they're not exactly buzzin' brothers. The UAE was straight out condemning it, the Saudis, Iran, Yemen, as you say, Oman, Turkey, Lebanon, they've all straight out there. Guterres has become out very, very strongly. Erdogan has come out very, very strongly. We're still waiting for Trump. But this is, you know, I think Guterres suggested this, this is destroying the ceasefire talks.

• 6:06Rory Stewart?

  It's something, when we discussed this Israeli strike, which was conducted right in the centre of Damascus, very close to where our hotel was when we were there in February, which took out the floor of the Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Defence of the Seven. At the time, we discussed the fact that many, many Arab nations looked at that and took a deep breath and thought, what's going on here? You know, this is a country which the US has lifted sanctions on. This is a country which Europeans and others are visiting and trying to reach out to, and you've just hit the main Ministry of Defence building. And they began to say, is anybody safe? Where is Israel going to strike next? And in fact, a Qatari friend of mine said, we're beginning to worry in the Gulf,

• 6:49Rory Stewart?

  he'd been talking to a Saudi friend, that the Israelis are going to begin to think that they can start striking Qatar or Saudi. So they were already noticing this a few weeks ago. And indeed, they were completely right in reading it in that way.

• 7:04Rory Stewart?

  Because we've entered a world in which the old post-war order, which was based on this Article Two, brackets four of the UN Charter, which said that you cannot strike another country unless you're doing it in self-defence. And self-defence requires imminent evidence of an armed attack. All the consent of that sovereign power has been just blown through. And we saw it a little bit, I guess, with Trump's attack on a vessel off the Venezuelan coast with no justification around it, but we see it here again. But on your point about negotiation, remember also that this was what happened when the US claimed to be negotiating with Iran.

• 7:48Rory Stewart?

  So the US negotiating with Iran and Israel struck Iran. At the time, it was very unclear whether Trump approved or was even informed. As you said, maybe to save face, he later said, oh, Israel had told him, and then followed up with his own strikes. But definitely initially, there were a lot of American negotiators negotiating with the Iranians just before the Israelis struck. So again, is he going to repeat that? Is he again going to say, of course, nothing happens in the world without my say-so, because I need that, my face?

• 8:19Rory Stewart?

  And what does it mean for anybody in the Gulf's relationship with the US? The Qatari government has spent Between sixteen and eighteen billion dollars over the last ten years buying defence equipment from the United States to protect them.

• 8:34Alastair Campbell?

  And the Americans have this massive Al Udeid airbase there with with over ten thousand US US troops there. I think the point on the other point, you know, Gutierrez's point about Qatar has sort of developed this reputation for a relatively small country that developed this reputation as being a player in the politics of the region and a negotiator in all sorts of different situations. But the talks could have taken place in London. They could have taken the talks between Hamas and Israel, they could have been in London, they could have been in Geneva, they could have been anywhere in the world. Are we now saying that Netanyahu, who has decided that his strategic goal is to destroy Hamas, that that means they can do it anywhere in the world, a bit like Putin thinks he can wipe

• 9:19Alastair Campbell?

  out people anywhere in the world, if it's in a London hotel or wherever it might be? And of course, we talked about, we we we just say to listeners, we recorded the main episode this morning. And in the in the Q and A, we talked about the the thing you just mentioned with Trump and the and the the attack on this boat with drug dealers. Now, this is a hell of a lot more serious with possibly much graver consequences, but it comes from the same mindset, that the strong man leader who has set out who is who and what his enemies are, can do what the hell they want, where the hell they want. But I think this has consequences that are pretty scary, pretty scary. You and I were having lunch today with an Australian politician, we were talking about, you know, the possible

• 10:04Alastair Campbell?

  consequences if this happens and that happens, and China, Taiwan, and all this sort of stuff. But this this has consequences that, you know, the world should be a bit worried about this.

• 10:14Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. And so I I think if we start with the legal position, then get back to the geopolitics. The simple idea is that you're innocent until you're proven guilty, and that you are arrested and detained and questioned. In this case, we don't know who was struck. We don't know how many innocent people were killed. I'm getting messages from Qatar at the moment, and I imagine this will change. So who knows whether this will be the case when we, people are listening to this in a couple of hours' time. But at the moment, many people in Qatar believe that none of the Hamas delegation were actually struck. And that potentially 11 people were killed, including a Qatari security personnel who

• 10:58Rory Stewart?

  were there to protect them. Um, so, you know, i- is the answer collateral damage? And I guess

• 11:09Rory Stewart?

  until today, there was an unwritten rule that, um,

• 11:15Rory Stewart?

  the US and Western allies turned a blind eye to Israeli strikes against countries that they thought were part of a kind of axis of evil. So you wouldn't get much protest against Iran. You wouldn't get much protest against striking Hezbollah, at least in Lebanon.

• 11:33Rory Stewart?

  Um, and Syria, of course, complicated by the fact that the Al Qaeda connections and Yemen, the Houthis are actually firing missiles. But Yemeni, uh, sorry, Qataris are not doing anything of that sort. In fact, the Qataris were asked by Netanyahu himself to provide support to Gaza. They've been invited by the US to do negotiations. They've been at the heart of Trump's negotiations, even in places like Eastern Congo with Rwanda. They've been at the heart of the US policies and trying to negotiate with Afghanistan. Um, and of course, they are a central gas supplier for the world. But can I just read you, and I, I, just on the narrow point of defence, I'd love your view on US defence.

• 12:18Rory Stewart?

  So Qatar has bought from the US, as far as I can work out from my rapid research, $2.4 billion on Patriot air and missile defence systems from the US, 2.2 billion in Raytheon's National Advanced Surface Air Missile System, an estimated $3 to $5 billion for Terminal High Altitude Area Defence as part of a $42 billion defence package announced in 2025, all emphasising ballistic missile protection. That's before you get on to the $12 billion contract for 36 F-15s, the $2 billion contract for 24 Apache attack. They have paid the United States billions upon billions to protect them from ballistic missile attack.

• 13:05Rory Stewart?

  And now a ballistic missile has just been fired at them, which Trump may be saying was done with his authorisation, at which point might they not go off and buy in future from China?

• 13:13Alastair Campbell?

  Well, we talked a lot about that kind of thing this week, the extent to which these geostrategic relationships are changing. A White House official, Rory, has confirmed that the Trump administration was notified about the Israeli strike on Doha before it took place. Now, what that says to me, I mean, notified is not the same as was well aware that, knew that it was coming. Notified says to me, they were told, they were informed, and there's nothing you can do about it. In other words, we'll get to know more because Trump's press secretary is doing a briefing.

• 13:50Rory Stewart?

  Or we'll get to know less once Trump's press machine gets spinning.

• 13:53Alastair Campbell?

  Well, that's absolutely true. We may actually get to know less because he may want to give us shape a different narrative. His press secretary apparently is going to be speaking at 6pm our time, and Trump is due to speak, if this was before this happened, he was due to speak at 9.30pm our time, when he was doing something related to health in the Oval Office. I've got no doubt at all, he will wax about this. I mean, it is a sign of both of his power and his impotence, in a way. Most of the world is basically, so everybody's putting out these statements, but at the same time, they're thinking, well, actually, we've got to wait to see what Trump says. But at the same time, in relation to the, so that's the power. Everybody says that he's the only guy who can get Bibi

• 14:37Alastair Campbell?

  to do the right thing or to change his mind. But actually, the impotence is also there in that Netanyahu seems to think he can do what he wants. And meanwhile, Netanyahu and these two characters that we talk about a lot, Ben Gavir and Smotrich, Smotrich was straight out there saying this was the right thing to do, it will show the terrorists they do not have immunity anywhere. So that's a direct message saying, if we think you're Hamas, we don't care where you are, we don't think, we don't care who you're surrounded by. And the other thing is every time we've had these Hamas killings, and listen, I'm not remotely defending them or what they did on October the 7th was awful. And they've done plenty of things before and since.

• 15:17Rory Stewart?

  Including a horrible attack which Hamas applauded against Israeli civilians two days ago in Israel itself.

• 15:25Alastair Campbell?

  Exactly. And in one of Netanyahu's, I think it was Netanyahu's statement or his office statement, they made, they linked October the 7th and the attack on the bus. So I think six people were killed in the bus. They also made the point that this was an attack that was justified because these were the planners of the October the 7th attack and they celebrated it. Now, your definition of what international law requires for them to take the action against the sovereign state or taking against people in the sovereign state, namely Qatar, that is not covered by them saying, well, these guys did some bad things back on October the 7th. So, but the point is

• 16:09Alastair Campbell?

  they're not going to care. They're not going to care because we are living in this world of impunity.

• 16:14Rory Stewart?

  Can I come in on a couple of things? One is the global reaction. As you say, surprising first that UAE came out quickly in support. I mean, it shows that in the end, the worry now in the Gulf about state sovereignty is beginning to create alliances which are emerging. So if you put the story back two years, the Emiratis were extremely reluctant to criticize Israel. They'd signed the Abraham Accords.

• 16:41Alastair Campbell?

  Yep.

• 16:42Rory Stewart?

  With Israel, they were benefiting economically enormously from these ties. They seemed to have some idea that Israel was a natural partner for them to defend themselves against Iran. And you actually ended up in a situation in which you got UAE and even Bahrain making very positive comments about Israel, partly because of this anti-Iranian focus. Saudi distancing itself and beginning to become more critical and Qatar pretty consistent in its criticism of atrocities in Gaza. But still, put it back two months, there was a gap between Qatar, which was very clear in its support for the Palestinians, Saudi increasingly clear.

• 17:19Rory Stewart?

  But UAE pretty much mincing its words, giving the impression that it valued its relationship more with Israel and the US than it did its relationship with Palestinians. And apparently less worried about its own Emirati population and what they thought about these things. This is now shifting.

• 17:36Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm. When we, when we get to hearing the European reactions, which I haven't really seen much yet, it'd be very, very interesting to see Mads in Germany because he's the one that, of all the big European leaders, he is the one that finds it very, very difficult really to criticize Israel. But this, I, I think he'll, I think he'll find this quite hard. And it's interesting, Roy, I'm looking, I don't know how many people we've got watching, we've got a hell of a lot of comments coming in, and I'm trying to sort of keep tabs on some of them. I'll just give you a flavor. Jeremy Blaine, I am Jewish and I'm utterly ashamed of the Israeli government. They're hiding behind antisemitism, which they're fueling and acting in unforgivable ways. This is an, they're accountable for genocide. Ayp Noor, this impunity is facilitated, this is a big point, by the willing corporation

• 18:19Alastair Campbell?

  approval of the US and the UK and their military apparatus in the region. The story cannot be divorced from this context. This is just nuts. John Smith, Israel, what, Israel gonna, gonna invade Poland? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. It's sort of, and then Hamish Mackay, I cannot believe Trump signed off on this. Where and when does this stop?

• 18:40Rory Stewart?

  And interesting, what, what can I add? Just sort of one quick one. Joe Averson, who just came in two minutes ago, who seems to be in Qatar. I can assure you, no civilian here in Qatar knew about this attack, unlike when Iran attacked. So people remember Iran signaled an attack, informed the United States that it was going to perform, perform what was basically a symbolic attack against the US airbase in Qatar. Happened, no casualties. Trump said, I knew about in advance, it all went. And Joe Averson there, confirming that this was not something that people knew about. And I can confirm, because I'm, actually know a lot of very senior people in Qatar who were completely astonished and appalled.

• 19:14Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah. Another one here, Jim B, another few points towards the Nobel Peace Prize. Maybe this will be the 11th war that he'll have stopped. I mean, I think this will be, I, I cannot believe that Trump will be anything other than furious with Netanyahu, whatever he says publicly. But I think that the, I just, I just, if you, just imagine for a minute, Roy, that you're Netanyahu and you're sitting there now, you've done this.

• 19:41Alastair Campbell?

  We don't know yet. The Israelis have said this has taken out the targets that they said it would. We don't know that.

• 19:49Rory Stewart?

  The Khatari says it hasn't. They're pretty clear that everybody's safe.

• 19:53Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, exactly. But Netanyahu says that, and I've said many, many times on the podcast in recent weeks, it is so rare that when they say they've taken out these Hamas operatives and civilians and women of children being killed alongside it in Gaza, it's so rare. We don't see the pictures of these people. We don't see the names. So this time, I think the pressure will be greater to show exactly who has been killed, exactly who has been in here. But he's sitting there. His defense forces are based, I mean, what's it drawn? Is the defense forces, the IDF are basically the moderates within the Israeli political firmament now. But they're basically saying, you've given us the orders, we've carried

• 20:36Alastair Campbell?

  out the attack. It is by your definition successful. The attacks come in from all these other countries, which allows Netanyahu to play the kind of the victim, to go out and say, we're the ones under attack. Unless Trump comes out really, really, really strongly, he will think on to the next thing. And the next thing, of course, is this attack on Gaza City and getting people out of Gaza City. So, you know, Smritish and Ben Gavir, it seems to me, keep on winning.

• 21:08Rory Stewart?

  Let's just lean into this. So this is a completely illegal act. This is extrajudicial killing. This is totally illegal under international law. And there's been no attempt to justify it within the category of international law. What then happens if Erdogan wishes to target somebody who he says is a Kurdish terrorist outside Turkey with a missile attack? What happens if India wants to go after a Sikh separatist with a missile attack on Canada? What happens if Congo decides that Rwanda is supporting somebody in Spain, right? I mean, where does this lead?

• 21:51Rory Stewart?

  Are we essentially saying that Netanyahu is opening the world for any leader with the military capacity to do it, can simply announce that he can attack anybody in any country in the world, provided he claims that there were terrorists there and is willing to kill collateral damage, presumably he will say, if it turns out civilians have been killed, oh, well Hamas were using them as a shelter, or this is, you know, this was contention. I mean, the question is, what was the imminent threat that they posed? Why could he not do what has traditionally been done, what the US traditionally would have done with Kasan, which is to work with the Katri Security Services to detain these people?

• 22:34Rory Stewart?

  I mean, what is the thing that pushes him to do it now? Why?

• 22:38Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I mean, listening to some, I was trying to listen to Israeli radio just before we came on, and I don't, I can't remember, I don't remember, I don't know who was speaking, but this person was saying that this, this was some, this was a long time in the planning,

• 22:56Alastair Campbell?

  that they had to find out where these people were, find out a meeting. It's not that they suddenly heard, these guys are in this room, we can get them now, let's do it. Now, I don't, as I say, I don't know who this was, but this was on, this was an Israeli speaking in Israel. And so why now?

• 23:14Alastair Campbell?

  Is either it was chance or it was planned. If it was planned, it means that they've been conducting these negotiations for the ceasefire, trying to get Hamas to agree to release the hostages, frankly, in bad faith. And because these are the people who they've been negotiating with.

• 23:33Rory Stewart?

  And of course, remember there was an announcement two weeks ago that Hamas actually was prepared to accept broadly the terms that the US had proposed. And it was Israel that was holding out. So Israel isn't isn't just holding out against the ceasefire proposal, they're killing the negotiations.

• 23:47Alastair Campbell?

  Yes, that was coming from these discussions, as I say, going on this hotel where they're both in two separate camps. Um. So I was trying to think what it was like in relation, if I was thinking about the Northern Ireland negotiations. It seemed it's like you had um the, you know, the the the Republicans over here and the Unis over here. And just as you think you're getting somewhere, like just two two days before the Good Friday feels like it's coming together. Like, you know, the British government decides to go and wipe out wipe out Adams and McGinnis.

• 24:22Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, fire an open missile straight at Gerry Adams.

• 24:26Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 24:26Rory Stewart?

  Open missile straight Gerry Adams and say we take full responsibility for this.

• 24:29Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 24:30Rory Stewart?

  The guy's a terrorist.

• 24:31Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Rory Stewart?

  Oh, and by the way, we're not going to get into any legal conversations about, you know, what our evidence is or courts or judges. He's a terrorist and we've killed a lot of other people at the same time and we've we've taken him out.

• 24:41Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, and you and you and you say we take full responsibility, we don't intend to apologize because these guys are our enemies. And they deserve everything they get. And that's that's the world that we're in, and that's the world that Trump tolerates.

• 24:54Rory Stewart?

  And of course, the difference difference in this case is that it would be like uh the UK doing it in the Republic of Ireland. I mean, it's doing it in someone else's country, not.

• 25:02Alastair Campbell?

  Well, although we were we were then, that's true, that's true. We were, but some of the people that we were negotiating with were in the Republic of Ireland.

• 25:09Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 25:11Alastair Campbell?

  So we could have taken we could have taken them out at the same time.

• 25:13Rory Stewart?

  Exactly.

• 25:14Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 25:14Rory Stewart?

  Take them out in the main main building in Dublin. Yeah.

• 25:17Alastair Campbell?

  The other thing that of course is happening um is that President Herzog is, as we speak, I think, en route to the UK. Um, I did actually have a a bid in to talk to him to the on the podcast, I'm not sure that'll happen. Um, but he's going to be having meetings, presumably with government people. Um, he's going, he's meeting Jewish community here. And and the other thing is that Keir Starmer, British Prime Minister, saw Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian. Leader in number 10, I think, yesterday. But of course, he can't go to Unger. Which is happening next week, the United Nations General Assembly, where you're going to have Britain and France and Canada and Australia recognizing a Palestinian state.

• 26:00Alastair Campbell?

  Um, and the Palestinians can't go.

• 26:04Rory Stewart?

  And you can't go to UNGA because the United States has denied him a visa.

• 26:07Alastair Campbell?

  Correct, denied the whole delegation.

• 26:09Rory Stewart?

  Right, which again goes to the core of a very big question around the United Nations. Palestinian delegation is recognized by the majority of the members of the United Nations. In the past, remember, you know, Gaddafi would turn up at the United Nations, all these people would turn up at the United Nations, the convention was the UN was a forum for people to turn up. And it wasn't up to the US on its own to decide on the behalf of the UN who could come and who couldn't. Um, listen, if it turns out that the US did, uh, sign off on this, or Trump tries to claim after the event that he signed off on it, supports it and is on site on it.

• 26:50Rory Stewart?

  How does Qatar then feel in its relationship to the US going forward? How does it feel about hosting US EBS? How does it feel about spending tens of billions of dollars buying US defence equipment? How does it feel about the fact that it's just given these huge concessions to the Trump family, this plane that exchange has? How exactly does anyone feel in relation to Trump? Because it doesn't matter whether you're Modi or you're Doha, you get yourself into a space where you think, I've developed a relationship with this person, we understand each other, we at least are on good terms. And then the next thing you know, he is doing something absolutely unbelievable.

• 27:31Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, well, that, that, that, as I say, is, is, is what they're all having to work out. Um, the, I suspect they'll be feeling really quite genuinely shocked. I think that they will complain very, very loudly if that is the case. I wouldn't be surprised, assuming that Trump was, quote, notified, but not given time to do anything about it, or not given the space to do anything about it. I suppose he, he, he would have a little bit of leverage to sort of say, well, this is just BB out of control. But then if, if that's, if you're sitting there as the Qataris, you're basically thinking that you've been, you've been had in bad faith.

• 28:12Rory Stewart?

  Yeah. What's to stop Trump when he's notified saying, no, absolutely not? We have incredible missile defence systems. We have the whole Al-Dahid airbase. If you launch a missile strike against our ally,

• 28:27Rory Stewart?

  there will be huge repercussions and consequences. I mean, it's it's not normal.

• 28:31Alastair Campbell?

  Right, which is probably what some of the people around Trump might have wanted to say. I wonder though, if that if it's the case that this was planned for some time, I wonder whether it was just a case of them not giving him enough time to react. And I and I fear that we won't really find out because what the White House will be doing now is trying to say, right, well, how do we? How do we handle this in a way that maintains our strength? Maintains the the sense that America is the real power that can fix this. So I don't know what the I don't know what the the Qataris are going to feel. I mean, if you look at their public statements, they are very, very, very, very, very, very pissed off.

• 29:11Rory Stewart?

  Well, it's unbelievable because as I say, I've actually got friends who were driving past that building, friends with young children who suddenly see a missile go off in the centre of their city. I mean, it's it's extraordinary. I mean, it's like you've entered a sort of Godzilla movie. I also think that European countries, Western allies of Qatar, need to come out very, very strongly in defence of Qatar immediately. If I was if if I was if I was Qatar, I'd I'd be pretty angry and resentful about how slow all these countries, Britain, France, Germany, all of whom have taken huge investments from Qatar, all of whom have made great protestations of friendship, all of whom have been visiting back and forth.

• 29:55Rory Stewart?

  When Qatar needs its friends, this is when these countries should be coming out and making statements. And if they don't, I think Qatar would have every reason to be completely disgusted.

• 30:05Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, I've just seen UK government Prime Minister spokesperson. We do not want to see a further escalation in violence in the region. This can only risk further destabilisation. We want to see an end to the suffering in Gaza, starting with the release of hostages and immediate ceasefire and a surge in aid to the region so there can be a long lasting peace in the wider region. Well, I mean, I can only think, I mean, it's six timed at sixteen thirty six. I don't know whether they still do a four P M briefing. I used to do a four P M briefing every day. Maybe they didn't have time to get a stronger line together, but that is not a strong line.

• 30:45Rory Stewart?

  No, that does not say we completely condemn this illegal attack on the sovereign territory of our ally Qatar.

• 30:53Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I, I mean, I hope if and when Keir Starmer comes out, that it says something a lot stronger than that. And of course, but even within that, the context, you know, the, the fact is that people will be, every single world leader now will be hanging, hanging around, waiting to see what Trump says about this and trying to work out whether it means much because of course, what we've seen with Putin, we've seen it quite often with Netanyahu. Um, that he sort of says things, he puts the pressure on with the words, but then when nothing happens, he just kind of moves on. But I can't be, I, I find it, I find it hard to fathom that he could do anything other than think that this is a bad, bad idea. Um, and, and it's, look, his big thing,

• 31:38Alastair Campbell?

  Trump's big thing was to say he was going to be the guy who could bring, who could sort this out and get a ceasefire. How do you negotiate a ceasefire? Who's going to negotiate the ceasefire now? Is Qatari, let's assume they have taken out the people they said they have. Is Qatar now expected to appoint seven new negotiators? To say, right, this is the new team. You've taken out the old team, here's a new team.

• 32:00Rory Stewart?

  And here's, here's a new security team. And by the way, you know, we're, we're apologizing to the family of the

• 32:06Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 32:06Rory Stewart?

  security personnel and people who

• 32:08Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 32:09Rory Stewart?

  just get another lot in. And that's fine. You've killed, you've effectively killed our, killed our policeman, but that's fine. We'll just apologize for that and get some more in.

• 32:15Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 32:15Rory Stewart?

  Um, uh, well, okay. Um, interesting. Nobody's talking about terrorist attack on Israel. Mayor, we did talk about the terrorist attack on Israel.

• 32:24Alastair Campbell?

  Uh, just, just on that as well, I, I, I think it's, you know, you cannot justify what Hamas did on October 7th and plenty more, plenty more besides. But the, you know, we had this amazing interview with UNICEF on leading this week, which people haven't listened to it. They really, really should. It's, it's a, it's a tough listen. But if you think about the way that Israel has conducted its operations in Gaza and the West Bank, now in Qatar, is very, very, very, very hard. To imagine why there will not be very wide scale radicalisation of the Palestinian population and of their supporters in the region and beyond.

• 33:08Rory Stewart?

  And and and yeah, and we we always used to talk about the Arab street, but of course now it's a virtual street. As and it has been in some ways since the Arab Spring. So what you will see is a billion Muslims around the world watching repeated footage of this strike um against an Arab state. And people will feel it in a very, very intimate way. I mean, Qatar is a place that like it or loathe it, is very much seen like Dubai as one of the developed success stories of the region. It's not a a place like Yemen or a place like Afghanistan, which are very, very poor countries on the edge of humanitarian disaster. It is a major now financial capital,

• 33:51Rory Stewart?

  resources, capital, museum, capital, place that hosted the World Cup, um place that's bidding now for the Olympics. This is a very, very different thing that Israel has done. It's it's brought this war much more intimately into the imagination of the modern world.

• 34:07Alastair Campbell?

  Francesco Malilevili. So thank you, Francesco. I loved reading your name out the other day when you asked about Peter Mandelson. It's official now, says Francesco, that the international right for some countries has no value anymore. I mean, that is the point. The fact that it should have been the case, and I'm not criticizing Gutierrez on this because I don't think he's to blame for this. It's what the big countries have done to the United Nations and its strength and authority in the world. But it should have been the case that when Gutierrez came out and said something today, which he did, it was kind of that was the whole world wanted to hear what he had to say. But the truth is, you know, you and I were interested and lots of other people will be interested. But it doesn't carry as much weight, I'm afraid, within this context

• 34:49Alastair Campbell?

  as the words of the President of the United States. And that's been one of Trump's strategic goals.

• 34:55Rory Stewart?

  Um. Last one for me, just coming out of our our lunch today, where we we were talking um a lot about Taiwan. Um, I think it is worth just thinking about what this means for the international order. Um, the more of this that goes on, the more people get, uh, what is it? Shock and yawn, you call it.

• 35:12Alastair Campbell?

  Shock and yawn, yeah.

• 35:13Rory Stewart?

  The more people get used over the last last few months to endlessly things happening which were unimaginable a few years ago. You know, Russia seizing. Chunk of Ukraine and nothing really happening to it. In fact, America are about to give it to it. Israel now firing missiles in every direction, boats being strung. If China were now to seize Taiwan, it would no longer have the shock value that it would have had even six months ago, let alone two years ago. And the number of countries around the world that would say, well, so what? You know, China's taken Taiwan, but you know, Russia's taken Ukraine and Israel's doing this in Gaza and this, that and the other. And the water battery would flourish.

• 35:56Rory Stewart?

  And my guess is that the international resolve to do anything about it, given that we're completely unable to call out the US, completely unable to call out Israel, completely unable to make consistent arguments about international law. If I was Xi Jinping, I'd just be sitting there thinking, yeah, I'm in a lovely position. And as I said over lunch, let's maneuver Trump into a situation where I inform him in advance, take over Taiwan, congratulate him on bringing peace, give him a chunk of the semiconductor factories and nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize after China absorbs Taiwan.

• 36:31Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Well, as you say, we did talk about that and it was sort of quite a chilling conversation in many ways. Let's close on this. Sam Armstrong suggests that the Qataris will be taking Trump's plane back. I mean, you didn't mention that in your log list of what the Qataris have done in their relationship with America. They're giving Trump this plane. Not sure they want it back. Well, yeah, but just think about it, you know, that was because the other thing we the other thing we heard today was was this this story of a world leader who was told that, you know, if they want to get on with, get on, you know, whenever they get to meet Trump and if they want to meet him, you know, they've really, really, really got to have a really, really good

• 37:16Alastair Campbell?

  present, you know, and sort of flatter him that have a really good present, like, you know, the Qataris had a plane. Keir Starmer had his envelope with the king's letter.

• 37:29Alastair Campbell?

  I don't know what the Qataris will give him next time. It won't be a big hug. Now Rory, we're gonna wrap now, but just to say to people, this has gone out live. We'll also be putting out for those good people who have to work or are walking home in London because of the Tube strike. Um, so we will put it out as a normal episode and then the main episode that recorded, um, will go out tomorrow, Wednesday sometime and probably in the afternoon to give this a few hours to sort of, you know, for people to digest it if they want to. And then Thursday, question time as usual.

• 38:01Rory Stewart?

  But thank you all very much for listening. Thank you particularly to the comments coming on. Um, it's been a really, really engaging discussion, horrible. I mean, let maybe just finish on a more serious note, which is deep, deep sympathy, um, for people who are going through this and how terrifying it is to have these kind of attacks happening in your city, even if they claim to be targeted and precise. Uh, we saw in Beirut, just what it's like to go through a city where buildings are being attacked in this way. And a real reach out, I think, without being too pious to international leaders, to be serious about this, to be serious about why these rules are in place to prevent this stuff and what happens if you don't stand up,

• 38:44Rory Stewart?

  uh, when the system begins to break and how much worse things can get unless we start forming alliances to, to uphold those rules.

• 38:53Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Okay Rory, see you soon.

• 38:55Rory Stewart?

  See you soon. Bye bye.

• 39:01Speaker 03

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