How To Be ‘Self-Full': Co-Dependency, Navigating Fear & Connecting With Who You Really Are

Time to step it up. I am excited to announce that today marks my commitment to henceforth deliver two episodes of the RPP per week. Each week, from today forward I will post the show every Sunday night (as usual) plus every Wednesday night (late night Pacific Standard Time). Like today, sometimes it will be a Q&A episode; other times it will be the typical one-on-one guest format. Perhaps some of them will be topic-specific mini-sodes. Time will tell. To kick off this new and exciting growth phase, Julie and I are back with another installment of Ask Me Anything — a twist on my typical format where we answer questions submitted by you, the listener. I absolutely love this format, primarily because it connects me more deeply and authentically with the global community of people who enjoy the show. Because community is truly what it's all about. It's been an exciting time for us. In the last few months we launched The Plantpower Way and have been on the road spreading the word. Recently returned from an incredibly fruitful trip to New York City, Julie and I share a little behind the scenes and catch up on where things are headed with the podcast and our commitment to wellness advocacy. Then the conversation turns to listener submitted inquiries. A conversation that explores: * Substance Abuse, Co-Dependency in Relationships * The ‘Self-Full’ Mandate * Our perspective on Plant Medicine Ceremonies * Strategies to Uncover, Address & Conquer Fear * Connecting With The Authentic Self Within * Adding Site Resources & Community Forum * The Importance of Good Deeds The show concludes with I'm Here Now, written and performed by Julie (aka SriMati), accompanied by our sons Tyler & Trapper Piatt. Thank you everyone who submitted the 100's of questions we reviewed. If we didn't get to yours (obviously chances are we didn't), don't be shy & keep them coming. Until we settle on a web-based means of collecting and organizing listener submitted inquiries (if you have ideas on the best way to do this I'm all ears), please send your questions to [email protected] and we'll do our best to answer! I sincerely hope you enjoy our discussion & look forward to your thoughts in the comments section below. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  The reality is, if you're not aligned in yourself, you're not able to help. You're really not in a place of being able to really be of service. And that's the beauty of going through a dark night or being sort of pummeled a bit by life's wonderful tumble-dry cycle.

• 1:25Rich Roll?

  That's Julie Pyatt, and this is another episode of Ask Me Anything on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:41Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:45Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody out in Podcastlandia. It's Rich Roll, your host. Back again with another episode, a Q&A Ask Me Anything episode with the lovely...

• 1:56Rich Roll?

  Hello.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Are you gonna introduce me, or I have to say my own name?

• 1:59Rich Roll?

  I was gonna make you say your own name.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  You say lovely, and then I have to say Julie Piatt.

• 2:02Rich Roll?

  That's right.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  That's bizarre.

• 2:03Rich Roll?

  Should we start over?

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Go ahead, you can introduce me.

• 2:06Rich Roll?

  No, we're just moving forward.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  All right, fine.

• 2:08Rich Roll?

  The lovely Julie Piatt.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  But now it's Podcastlandia, right?

• 2:10Rich Roll?

  Well, Podcasts is sort of like Portlandia.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:13Rich Roll?

  Podcastland.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Well, hi, thanks for having me.

• 2:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's been a while since we've done one of these.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  It has been.

• 2:19Rich Roll?

  So what do we do here on the show? Each week, I, and sometimes you, today you, probe the minds of some of the best and the brightest in health, wellness, excellence, in pretty much all kinds of different kinds of subjects: entrepreneurship, spirituality, publishing, pretty much anything that piques my interest, all as a means to help us live and be better.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:46Rich Roll?

  It's a pretty good aspiration, right?

• 2:47Speaker 01

  But today, we're taking questions.

• 2:48Rich Roll?

  We are, but still, these are all keys to helping us all unlock and unleash our best, most authentic selves.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  That is true.

• 2:56Rich Roll?

  Is that what we do? So, anyway, thanks, everybody, for subscribing to the show on iTunes, for spreading the word, and for always clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. To make it easy, you guys, all you have to do is go to the link once, and then you can bookmark it, and then it's at the top of your browser, so you don't have to go to my website every single time.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  What about the app?

• 3:18Rich Roll?

  Well, the app, too, but we're not talking about the app right now, we're talking about Amazon. And everybody who has made that a habit, that has been huge for us, it really supports us, so I just wanted to give a little appreciation for those that are doing it, and if you haven't checked that out yet, listen, everybody's buying stuff on Amazon, that's pretty much where everything is the cheapest, anyway. So if you are an Amazon customer, it's a great way to support the show, it doesn't cost you anything extra, and Amazon kicks us some commission change, and that really helps kind of underwrite the whole podcast, so thank you very much for doing that.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  We appreciate that a lot.

• 3:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, absolutely. So, it's been a little while since we've done one of these, there's been a lot of travel under our belts, we just got back from New York City, and I've kind of recapped that in a past episode, but it was a pretty epic trip. Did you enjoy yourself?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  I did enjoy myself very much.

• 4:11Rich Roll?

  Well, sort of your coming out also in terms of being an author with all these appearances and everything like that. What was really cool, and I've said this before, but listen, in LA, like everyone's so jaded and into themselves that it's really hard to pull a crowd to do anything in Los Angeles. And every like stand-up comedian or musician will say the same thing, like when they go out into the world and tour and do appearances and stuff, they get great rabid fans and crowds and stuff like that. But when they do stuff in LA, it's much harder because everyone lives here or everybody's competing against everybody else's thing and everybody's kind of into their own thing. So oddly and ironically, given that Los Angeles is kind of the entertainment capital of the

• 4:50Rich Roll?

  planet, you don't really necessarily feel the connection with the audience living here. But like being in New York, because you're just out with so many people out in the street, it was amazing how many people just, you know, gave high fives on the street or just said, hey, I listen to the show like on the subway or just, you know, wherever outrunning, walking around. And for the first time, you got to experience a little bit of that for yourself, like some fans coming up to you?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was crazy. That's, it's been crazy, actually. Well, first of all, I want to back up and I want to say that I really did, we really did have a very deeply meaningful book release party in Los Angeles. And we did have some very, very hardcore fans come out and it was, it was just very, very meaningful. So I have to say that. But I think when you travel, obviously you're not in your neighborhood and you don't have any, you know, any of your social structure that you usually have that sort of defines your life on a daily. So yeah, it's really surreal to just be out walking in the streets of New York and have somebody stop me and say, you know, want to take their picture with me and, you know, say how much they love the show and they love the cookbook. And it was, it was really, really sweet.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  And, you know, I just find really amazing humans out there, really, really good-hearted, you know, inspiring people. And I actually had the same experience when we traveled to Ireland. We went to Ireland recently to attend our dear friend Tara and Danny's wedding. And we were asked to perform, actually I actually sang when she walked down the aisle in this incredible tree cathedral. So it was a surreal experience, but even more surreal was to receive an email from podcast fans that were living in Cork and it's Carmella and crew.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  And it was just, it was really, really crazy that they, they met us, they made a plant-powered breakfast for us, and then a whole crew of people met us at Cornucopia in Dublin. And, and then we had a whole nother crew in London, Damien, and just, it's, it's crazy. It's really so sweet.

• 7:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's great. And it makes me think that maybe a good idea would be to kind of follow the model that, you know, James Altucher has these choose yourself meetups across the country, and also Matt Fraser at No Meat Athlete does the same. There are No Meat Athlete groups that have nothing to do with like James or Matt. It's just people on their own who get together to, you know, form their own community around the ideas that resonate with them. And that could be cool to do plant-powered meetups, because I think that's a way to, you know, scale the ideas that we talk about without involving us as personalities, because it's not about us, it's about these ideas, these powerful ideas that are transformative in people's lives. And to the extent that, you know, we can kind of, you know, create a foundation and

• 7:45Rich Roll?

  then people can then take that and go out in the world and create their own communities where they live around that, I think that that's exciting, so.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, there's power in, in, in everybody, you know, connecting and then spreading that information. So, and I think people would find it very supportive as well, you know, so yeah, we should, we should find a way to support that.

• 8:05Rich Roll?

  Let's try to figure out how we can make that happen.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:16Rich Roll?

  All right, let's get into some listener questions. It's been a while, and so many emails have come in. Thank you so much for everybody who has taken a moment to reach out to us. And, you know, obviously, we can't respond by replying to every single one of those, which is one of the reasons why we're doing this kind of Q and A format. And we're going to be doing more of this kind of stuff. I'm really committed to getting to two episodes a week. I really think that that's my goal going forward, to step up the podcast and increase the volume of episodes. And the Q and A aspect of it is integral to that. And I also am looking into new and different ways to collate all the questions that are coming in, because it's quite laborious to go through. I love all the emails, keep sending them in.

• 8:59Rich Roll?

  But in terms of trying to select questions to, you know, speak to everybody and do it in a way that kind of speaks to the most number of people, I think we need a better system than email. So Google had like a format that I announced on one podcast, but they're terminating it. So I'm looking into other, there's other third-party apps and technologies out there that allow you to create, I don't know what you would call it, not surveys, but people can lodge their questions on a user interface on the computer, and then they can get upvoted. So the ones that the people most want answered, the listeners out there, get kind of rise to the top. And then we can speak to, you know, the issues and the concerns that most people want to hear about. But I'll report back to you on how we decide to configure that. That's kind of in motion right now.

• 9:44Rich Roll?

  But in terms of the first kind of subject matter that I want to get into, it isn't one particular inquiry from one singular person, but it's kind of an amalgam from a bunch of different emails that I've gotten over the last couple of months. And it has to do with people that are in a relationship with somebody who is active in their alcoholism or their substance addiction, and how to navigate that, to try to be supportive to their partner, their spouse, their boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever it is, but also, you know, try to help that person, you know, get to the next level where they can kind of confront their addictive tendencies. And this is a sticky wicket, right?

• 10:28Rich Roll?

  And it's a very common thing, like, you know, people kind of tune into the podcast because they know I'm in recovery. And certainly, there are people that have reached out that are struggling with substance abuse, but I want to talk about the people that are in relationships with those people. And I think the first thing to bear in mind, and Julie chime in, is that you have to understand that you can't, you can't make somebody change that doesn't want to change. That's sort of the predominant kind of idea that you have to first kind of embrace before you try to take the next step. That, you know, recovery is not for those who need it, it's for those that want it. And it's very difficult to

• 11:12Rich Roll?

  create willingness in another person, especially when they're in the grips of such a powerful disease that has a hold of them. So I think that the first thing that you have to do is let go of expectations and focus on taking care of yourself first, and to try to avoid the pitfalls of getting involved in a codependent relationship with that, with that person. Would you agree with that?

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I would say, you know, this is a, it is, it's a very slippery, you know, even, you know, subject, because there's such a broad spectrum of what this means, like, what, what this means to every relationship is so different, you know, because it depends on what level is the person that you're with using, and what are the other effects? So, you know, I would just, I guess I would have to say at the very beginning, you know, if something is in a crisis format, or people are being harmed, or, you know, it's at some, you know, some very extreme level, you know, you know, I would, yes, I would say, in any

• 12:17Speaker 01

  case, the magnifying glass and the entire, the entire perspective and introspection has to be within your own self, because that's the only thing that really matters anyway. So if I found myself in that situation with a partner who was using, I would Have to look deep inside myself and really, um, really make sure that I was living my purpose and connecting with myself at a much deeper level. Um, after that, you know, there's a bunch of other questions that would need to be asked to determine whether I wanted to stay in this relationship with this person. So, yeah, I would say first, you know, first and, and first and last, you know, all the

• 13:01Speaker 01

  focus has to be on yourself.

• 13:03Rich Roll?

  Right. And in terms of codependency, for people that, that aren't familiar with that term, and I think that this term gets sort of misunderstood quite a bit, um, you know, code, some people think codependency just means like, oh, you can't be alone, like you always have to be with someone else, but it's not really that. What it really means is that, that you are investing your sense of self in another person and you become a caretaker and you kind of become someone who rubber stamps somebody else's, uh, negative behavior patterns and, and you kind of lose your sense of self and your own boundaries in the process. Right? So you're always kind of tiptoeing around the other person and trying to make it okay and trying to make sure that, you know, the world doesn't see them the way that you see

• 13:46Rich Roll?

  them and you're kind of always on pins and needles and, and, and living in this unpredictable state because you never know, um, you know, who's going to walk through the door. Is it going to be a sober person? Is it going to be someone who's loaded? And, and, you know, that, that, that creates a lot of trauma for people. And, and a lot of times addicts and alcoholics attract that codependent personality because that person will take care of them and that person will, you know, kind of help make it okay for them. And, and that's not a healthy relationship to be in.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. I mean, I can speak from experience with that. Actually, not with you, not because I wasn't with you when you were using, you know, per se. So, I mean, the disease still live, you still live with the disease, but it's at a much, it's a much different sort of conversation than what we're having right now. But I will say, I was in an abusive relationship and that was my, um, really, that was my experience. My experience was waiting for the person to show up and doing a quick survey of where they were at. And then that would affect how I would then act, you know, in, in response to that person. So, yeah, everything becomes about them, you're walking on eggshells, and, you know,

• 14:58Speaker 01

  that is, I guess, probably the, the height of codependency, is defining yourself through really how, how you manage their experience, you know, how you're on the tightrope and how well you're managing this sort of never-ending battle that is basically not solvable and cannot be healed by you. So, yeah, that would be my experience with it.

• 15:23Rich Roll?

  Right, so if you're in an acute situation like that, I mean, the first thing I would say to you is, again, you know, that's self-care, and, and what does that mean? Well, I think, you know, a very helpful outlet or avenue to explore would be Al-Anon, you know, and, you know, I think that a lot of people, like, they're, "I don't want to go to an Al-Anon meeting, it's a 12-step meeting, I'm not the one with the problem." But for a lot of people, it's quite helpful in kind of, you know, discussing with a community of people that are going through the same thing, who have a lot of experience with this issue, you know, tools and, and ways of, you know, sort of marching forward with your best foot forward, you know, to do it in a healthy way.

• 16:04Rich Roll?

  And, you know, sometimes it means, you know, sort of, you know, that tough-love thing, where it's like, "Hey, I'm, I'm leaving," you know, or "You gotta move out," or, you know, kind of those harsh, you know, ultimatums, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that either.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I, I don't have a, a track record with Al-Anon. Al-Anon was not a support to me, but, you know, I'm, I know it is to, you know, millions of people, and that's an amazing organization, and, you know, that's, you know, you speak to that, and that's your experience, which is great. I would say that I, I gained clarity, you know, again, from, from the teacher of experience, and that is literally getting my head bashed against the wall, instead of figuratively, but literally going through the experience, repeating. repeatedly over a set of time and beginning a meditation practice.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  And it was the day that I, you know, I got trapped in this spiritual kind of illusion. Because I think we're taught, you know, well, a good person forgives, right? A good person rises up and forgives and turns the other cheek, so to speak, or, you know, can sort of see the bigger picture. And I think one of my big pitfalls in my experience and why I was actually in and out of this relationship over a seven-year period, I actually got away for a year and a half and ended up going back, if you could even believe that's possible. But my, my big mistake or my big illusion was that I was in control. And I could see that he was very much like a child or like a traumatized little child

• 17:48Speaker 01

  who was having this tantrum, right? And there was a part of me that could view that and could, you know, I felt very, very together, sort of in it. But my biggest mistake as I got out of it years ago, I mean, years later and looked back was that I put someone else's needs before mine.

• 18:08Rich Roll?

  Well, that's the absolute definition of codependency.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Right. So it was when I decided to love myself more than anyone else, that's when I got out.

• 18:20Rich Roll?

  And how did you do that?

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Well, at the time, it was, it was, okay, so the, let me just give you a little bit of the background. So I met this individual when I was in college and he was in a very, you know, working in the music business, managing like big rock bands and, you know, so it was a very seductive life. And he decided that he loved me and I really didn't like him at all and he, it was crazy. I mean, it's absolutely crazy that I ended up, you know, actually I married him, actually being with him for all that time. But it was sort of the, the element of persistence, you know, like he was the one who was always there, you know, even when I didn't want him to be there, he was there. And he just, he just wore me down over time, like through phone calls, gifts, you know, contact.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Or tickets, you know, just, and it became like, oh no, we're friends, we're friends. And then at one point, when he saw the opening, he kind of forced his way in. And I was too, too immature and too undeveloped in myself to know, you know, to know any better. And so I was like, oh, well, maybe I do love him, like, maybe he's right. So it, it started this whole experience. And then, uh, you know, uh, okay, so the, so the, the pattern in abuse is always that, you know, it's not that the abusers are like this from day one, because if they were, they would never get in a relationship. So it's a progressive burn.

• 19:46Rich Roll?

  Well, it's, it's the up and down, you know, it's sort of like the abusive behavior followed by, you know, the, the waterfall of like love and apologies and amends and all that kind of stuff. That's what keeps you stuck. Because one is always followed by the next.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, and it's called.

• 20:02Rich Roll?

  But it's this cycle.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  It's called a honeymoon cycle. It's like, it's actually, it's, you know, actually defined in abuse. And so it goes around in a circle. But I would even say before that, that, that, that, you know, you're not shown these traits, at least, at least completely transparently. So it wasn't until.

• 20:19Rich Roll?

  Of course, or you wouldn't get into it.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Or you wouldn't get into it, you know? And it's so, so it wasn't until I was, you know, out of college and had moved here, you know, and had actually moved in with him and had no friends and had, you know, kind of no system, no structure around me, that then I saw the first episode of abuse. And the first episode of abuse, it's so traumatic, you're just thinking like, how in the hell is this happening to me? And you don't want anybody to know about it. And, you know, I was like, oh, my parents would be devastated, like, how did this happen? And then the, the, the remorse.

• 20:52Rich Roll?

  The shame that comes with that.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  It's huge shame. And then the remorse is so large, you know, within him. And, you know, he would cry and, you know, just like so sorry, like so beyond sorry. And then I would forgive him. And then it would be okay for, actually, it not only would be okay, it's these extremes. So I would be like the most amazing woman on the planet or in the universe, right? And then I would fall from that. Status all the way into the toilet. Like it would go, I would go from being the absolute most pristine, you know, feminine who had ever walked the earth to being the low, the lowest, you know, piece of shit in the gutter. Like that would, that was a trajectory.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  So it just, you know, it took a little while and I started to see actually a, um, a student therapist. I didn't have money to, you know, have a therapist and I found, you know, one of these, um, kind of programs where, you know, a student has to do her hours. And actually her name was Mary Lee. So I just wanna remember her. Uh, and she actually tried to get me to breathe and I thought she was an insane person. And I remember going into the sessions.

• 22:01Rich Roll?

  Already breathing.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  I was like, great breathing. And now it's like, I'm all about breathing. She was like, if you can just breathe. So, but every time I would go in there, every time I, I left, she would remind me that he, he could kill me. And I used to just look at her and just think, oh, you're just like so exaggerating, you know, cause I just really didn't feel that. So it took me a long, a long way to, to work myself out of it. But again, for me, like the key moment was the moment that I finally decided to never put him before me. So I didn't care how much weight he lost, how sad he was, how upset he was. It had nothing to do with me. It was literally done. And at that point, there was no way, there was no ties and I never repeated the experience again.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  So it's not like I had a pattern and I was used to it or I had seen it and.

• 22:48Rich Roll?

  But did you go through that thing where you're trying to get him to look at his own behavior and change? Or was it just?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Oh, it was impossible. I mean, he was explosive. I mean, he'd, you know, he did come to some, a couples therapy, which would make an amazing, amazing movie because like he screamed at this therapist like so badly that she was shaking, but you know, it was, it was horrible. And, but the one thing, really bizarre thing is, and I think people that are addicted to drugs or like cigarettes or you have the recurring dream where you wake up and you're like, huh, like I used or I smoked. Well, my recurring dream was that he was attached to my leg and he wouldn't let go. All I was saying was like, "I don't love you, like, get away from me, get away from me." And this tortured me for many years, but I literally made the decision to never speak to him again, to never interact with him again.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  And years and years later, I had this karmic kind of wheel roll around, and all of a sudden, in the same month period, I saw all these people from my life with him. Like, all these people just showed up, and it was all at once, and it was a really nice reunion and all that stuff. And then I saw him once, I saw him from across the street, and I was working with a spiritual teacher at the time, and I remember telling him, like, "Okay, so, is it time to make amends, and should I call him?" And my teacher was like, "No." Like, "Do you want to create more karma? Like, leave it alone, don't go there."

• 24:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 24:14Speaker 01

  So, that was my very extreme, very, very extreme experience, you know? And so, I had that experience, you know, under my belt, you know, and then some. By the time I met you, it was actually two relationships after that. So, I never had that with you. And that's why it's hard for me to say, like, I don't want people to think when they read our story, like, "Oh, you know, Rich was using and I was, you know, this Mother Teresa," or something.

• 24:42Rich Roll?

  No, that's not, that's not our history.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Because that's not the truth.

• 24:45Rich Roll?

  That's not our history. But I continue to, you know, I will always be an alcoholic, and, you know, although I don't drink or use drugs, like, that ism, you know, is still within me and manifests itself in a variety of ways, which is why I'm still very active in recovery, and why it's the first priority and all of that, because I'm constantly trying to arrest that. But it, you know, it raises its head in various, you know, behavior patterns that are unhealthy for me, that I'm always trying to kind of manage. So, but, but, kind of, you know, the paradigm of being in an abusive relationship is quite analogous to somebody who's in a relationship with somebody who is in, you know, in the grips of substance abuse addiction, and...

• 25:27Rich Roll?

  I think that it's trickier when there is a deep love between them because whether it's parents with a child, or somebody who's been married, or what have you, it gets a lot harder and it's a lot trickier. Like if you're a parent and you're watching from the sidelines as your child is spiraling out of control, like how do you manage that? The tough love of like, okay, we're not talking to you until you get sober is frightening because what happens if something really bad happens and you weren't there for that person. So that keeps people in perhaps and probably most of the time longer than they should. So there are certain things that you can do that are kind of come out

• 26:10Rich Roll?

  of the course and scope of taking care of yourself, which is to create those healthy boundaries, like this is not acceptable in the house, or if you're gonna do that, like I'm not gonna be around. Things like that that are self-care, but also make it very clear to the other person, like this isn't gonna work for me. And if you're gonna perpetuate this, like this relationship is off the rails and I'm moving in a different direction. And that can be as extreme as, you know, I'm moving out, or just to, like, don't bring that around me. And I think you can make it clear to the other person that that behavior is unacceptable and that they need to address that, but you have to be divorced from an expectation that that person is going to change because that person has to be ready. And sometimes, and quite often, they're not ready. They have to go through whatever they're

• 26:55Rich Roll?

  going through to get to that place where they're in enough pain where they can then look in the mirror and take accountability for their behaviors. And that could go on for years. And those are painful, painful years. So the question really is, like, are you gonna go on that ride or not?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I would have to say, I'm just sitting here feeling into everything that you're saying. And I have to say from my own experience that I don't think the tough love thing really works. I really don't. You know, I think it's lip service-

• 27:25Rich Roll?

  It kinda worked for me. My parents said, we're done. And that was like a heavy, that was like, that was a very difficult thing for me to swallow. And that really began the process of- Me going, you know what, like, I just, I don't have much longer of living this way. Like, I can't, like, that was intolerable to me. That was so painful that that was a, it didn't, I didn't change overnight as a result of that. But I think that that was an important part in kind of turning the tide for me. So I think it does have its place. Because I think it compels the person to really understand. Because I think somebody who's in the grips of that is just like, leave me alone. What I'm doing is none of your business. I'm not hurting anyone and you're myopic. You don't understand, you're not in touch with the fact that your behavior is impacting other people.

• 28:08Rich Roll?

  You just think that it's your choice for yourself. You can't see the ramifications of that. You're blind to that. And so, to the extent that other people can bring it to your attention and go, look, man, this is what you're doing and this is what it's doing to me. Helps the person understand that there are, you know, that there are repercussions outside of that personal choice.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess me, I would agree with you. And I guess on the large issues, like if it's an ultimatum, like a complete ultimatum. But if it's the little things, like during the course of the relationship, like, I just, I find it to be mostly lip service. And, and I just know in my experience with you, it's never worked. So what's worked has been to depersonalize your disease from me and not participate in any cause or effect of it. And understand that when you're, when you're looping or when you're in one of your, you know, imbalances that has nothing to do with me. And to be able to release you to your own process, which is what we've talked about,

• 29:15Speaker 01

  a lot about with the food, you know?

• 29:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Because, because even when I, you know, even when I was trying to communicate and reason and say, hey, this isn't good and hey, this doesn't work, it never worked.

• 29:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  So in my experience, it's like, what really healed us was meditation. Was it, was a real, you know, a real desire and a real commitment to actually, for me to release you, go deep within myself, access this deep meditative place and, and then be. Be in unconditional love and compassion and understanding that your, you know, whatever's going on with you is not, has nothing to do with me.

• 29:56Rich Roll?

  Right, but I think the piece that you're really getting at is, you know, when I say, oh, you know, that tough love thing, that can kind of compel somebody to look in the mirror and say, oh, I gotta do this, but then if they're not ready, they're then gonna do it for the other person to make the other person okay, as opposed to really doing it for themselves.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  I see.

• 30:13Rich Roll?

  So, the releasing thing that you're talking about is really that shift in energy that when you let go, then it's like, oh, the mirror, now I'm looking at myself in the mirror, and I've gotta make this decision, not because Julie is putting an ultimatum on me, or whoever it is, but, but because it's my life, right? And I have to take accountability for that. So, it's, it's a little ephemeral, I think, but I think that's, that's kind of what, I mean, that's been my experience, I think.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:43Rich Roll?

  So, in terms of people out there that are in this situation, I think what you can take from this is that it's not a black or white thing.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  It's not at all.

• 30:51Rich Roll?

  And, and you're gonna have to feel it out, but, you know, the self-care and, and kind of what Julie said, the self-love aspect of it, I think is the most powerful part of it and the beginning, and I think divorcing yourself from the expectations of having that person change are really important as well.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's all about self-love, and I think that the, the kind of little trick is that, you know, many of us have been taught to think that self-love is selfish, but it's actually not, because...

• 31:18Rich Roll?

  You can't love anyone else until you love yourself.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  I mean, everybody says that, and then they go, oh, that's so, you know, tried or whatever, you know, oh, yeah, but the thing is, is yeah, so it's, I would say, be very selfish, be extremely selfish, that's what I would tell anyone in any walk of life, because from my perspective, we're all created from a divine blueprint, and we all were created for a specific reason, with a specific life purpose to like, actualize. So, because I believe in God, or the Force, or whatever, I want you to be really selfish, I want you to be exactly how you are in your heart, and if you do that, I think... That frees up a lot. And then another thing that I

• 32:00Rich Roll?

  Can I just like, can I just like make one observation on that first? Which is that gets misunderstood or misinterpreted to mean that you're just all about you. And it's not really that. I think it's, it really is rooted in that like Buddhist idea that the most powerful way to change the world is to like, you know, improve yourself. Because if you really are selfish in that way, and selfish is such a pejorative word, but it really shouldn't be, you know, it's sort of like if you are exercising that self-care and exercising those healthy boundaries and really doing that internal work to like make yourself the best version of yourself that you can, that's how you get on the right track with your life and the right trajectory, and then you have more to give.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I mean, I think a better word would be a word that was like self-full.

• 32:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  You know, when you're actually self-full, it means you're in integrity, you're authentic, you're aligned to your true origin. And because you're in integrity and you're in alignment, your actions are automatically spontaneously in right order. So it affects everything from the very beginning, because so many of us, you know, we end up in places, situations, events, life things, because of a should, because somewhere, someone along the line, society, our parents, ourselves, like whatever, told us that we should be doing a specific thing. And, you know, back into, you know, yogic practice, it's like,

• 33:28Speaker 01

  you know, at the ultimate, if you're aligned with yourself, you don't need rules, you don't need someone to tell you to give you a list of commandments, because you would never, you would never act out of right harmony, because you're so aligned in yourself.

• 33:42Rich Roll?

  You become able to trust your instincts.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and just really spontaneous. It's like, it's almost like you're spontaneously living from this really powerful, integrated energy source.

• 33:55Rich Roll?

  Right. One of the things that, when I, when I did a podcast with Casey Neistat in New York, I had Mathis with me, and I was like, hey, so Mathis, I said to Casey, Mathis is our 11-year-old daughter, I said to Casey, so I have Mathis right here, if you could say one thing to her, like one piece of advice, like what would you tell her? And he, and he said, Don't listen to anybody, you know, but I think, and that's a very powerful thing. Like what he's saying really is trust your instincts, but in order to be able to trust your instincts and have that like finely attuned radar and antenna about what's right for you, it goes back to what you said, exercising that self-full lifestyle and, you know, behavior patterns that you can master over time so that you are so in tuned with who you are

• 34:39Rich Roll?

  that you don't need that external guidance or output because you know what's right for you.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, in front of that state, so so many of us think, well, you know, I want to help others, or, you know, I want to do charity work, or I want to, you know, I want to do this so that I can, you know, I can help. And, and the, the reality is, if you're not aligned in yourself, you're not able to help. You're really not in a, in a place of being able to really be of service. And that's the beauty of, you know, going through a dark night, or being, you know, being sort of pummeled a bit by, you know, life's wonderful, you know, tumble dry cycle, is you, you get an opportunity to really, you know, shed some

• 35:24Speaker 01

  of the sort of, you know, extra things that are sort of blocking you from really, really, really living your best, most authentic self.

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm, cool.

• 35:41Rich Roll?

  All right, I want to switch into another question, but it's kind of related to the first one. And this is something that we've talked about, I don't think that we've ever talked about it on the podcast. We've definitely talked about it at length off, off air.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Do we talk off air?

• 35:54Rich Roll?

  Once in a while, when we're forced to. This is, I'm not going to, the email's really long, and I'm not going to give the person's name. But she is somebody who is sober and is vegan.

• 36:10Rich Roll?

  And has hit somewhat of a plateau in her life. And she writes, "With my sobriety, with my workout routine, and just with everything in general, part of my spiritual journey has led me to plant medicine, which has been one of the best things that has ever happened to me. And I have experienced rapid transformation since I began participating in ceremony here in Oakland, California. I know that it is the right choice for me, even though some people in 12-step recovery don't really see it the same way that I do. But with this newfound path of healing, I have also found myself justifying smoking pot, and as its consequences are far less devastating than drugs and alcohol. I'm unsure of my life path and what I should be doing next, and if smoking pot is something that I want to be doing."

• 36:54Rich Roll?

  And, you know, it goes on. And interestingly, in the next paragraph, she says, "Every time I start a workout plan, it sizzles out within weeks. I know I'm capable of greatness, just like everyone else is. How can I find that inside of me? What is the best program for me to integrate into my spiritual journey?" And she's wondering if, what our opinions are on plant medicine ceremonies, if we've ever done anything like that. So, this is a really important subject, and it's come up kind of regularly in passing. And I think it's, you know, worthy of our time to discuss. And I will just say, you know, Julie, I want Julie to chime in on this in a second, but I just want to say that, you know, for me, just kind of navigating the world and out

• 37:39Rich Roll?

  in the world as kind of a sober person in recovery, you know, I keep hearing these stories from other podcasts and other people that are talking about ayahuasca and DMT and how, you know, this is like the cure-all for my addiction. If I would just do this, it would really resolve my addiction problems. And I've seen people who have done it, and they will profess, you know, these, the spiritual miracles that have transpired as a result of doing this. And it's very much a zeitgeist thing right now. Like, there's almost a whole tourism industry built around people like going down to South America and being with shamans and having this kind of ayahuasca experience. And so, I think it's kind of something that's important. It's on a lot of people's minds, you know, is this right for me? Is this not right for me? And...

• 38:25Rich Roll?

  And as somebody who is, you know, an alcoholic and an addict, who struggles with my, you know, obsessive compulsive behavior patterns, when somebody says to me, "Oh, the solution to your drug and alcohol problem is to like, take this drug," you know, like that, like, that's like, "Oh, that sounds good."

• 38:42Speaker 01

  You're like, "Yeah, like honey."

• 38:44Rich Roll?

  Like, "Hey babe, like, let's check this out, let's go down and do that." And I have to like, "Oh, wait a minute, you know, what's really going on here?" And it scares me, you know, like I, you know, like my sobriety is extremely important to me. It's very tenuous and it requires a lot of work for me to maintain that sober path. And for me, anything that comes even close to threatening that is something that I cannot have in my life. But I think on a broader kind of scale, it's a discussion that needs to be had about what happens when you put a substance, a very, very, very powerful substance like that into your body? And what does that do to you? And what is the responsibility of somebody who's administering that to you?

• 39:28Rich Roll?

  And what is your personal responsibility to yourself about what that means and why you're doing it?

• 39:35Speaker 01

  Beautiful. Okay, so, you know, I have a lot to say about this issue. And I just want to say to the person who wrote the letter in, I want to thank you for asking the question. And also, I want to just say to you that I believe in you to find your way through your journey. And so, what I'm going to say, I offer with complete respect and unconditional love and judgment. So, I am not an advocate of plant medicine in any circumstance. I cannot say that on the air enough. And my information and my perspective is informed from all the years of spiritual study that I have embarked on

• 40:20Speaker 01

  with many, many different teachers and traditions. A lot Vedic, but, you know, I've also worked with Native American. And I would say...

• 40:33Speaker 01

  That it is extremely dangerous to open yourself spiritually using a drug, whether it is natural or whether it is synthetic, into realms that you do not understand and that you are not equipped to deal with. There is a reason that our spiritual progression has a certain timeline that goes through our life, and the goal should be to open slowly and consciously with great awareness and balance. Anytime you take a mind-altering substance that could snap you open to other realms, you're taking a very, very large risk.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  And unless you are very, very skilled in working in the multi-dimensional realms and dealing with dark energies and energies that are not in your best interest, I would advise that you stay very, very far away from any of these ceremonies.

• 41:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that, you know, I would couch that by saying that I know people that are friends of mine who have done this and have had expansive, positive experiences with that. But I think the bigger and larger issue really is what Julie's getting at, which is, you don't really know what you're playing around with, you know? It's extremely powerful, and when you open yourself up like that, all kinds of stuff can happen. And for every story of somebody who's had some kind of transformative experience, there are other stories that don't get a lot of press, that I know personally of people that have had, you know, crazy experiences that have been devastating, that have resulted in depression and people becoming shut-ins and all kinds of craziness, right?

• 42:19Rich Roll?

  So, I don't have direct experience with this, so it's not for either Julie or I to, like, tell you what you should or should not do with yourself or your life. But I think that... It bears mentioning that you have to take responsibility for it in the sense that you are opening yourself up to all kinds of crazy energies that you can't predict or control.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you also have to understand that, you know, it's this idea and spirituality that we all have, like, we just want someone to give us a pill, just give me the pill so that I wake up and then I'm fully realized and I can, you know, go to the next level or whatever, or we want someone to come in with a wand. And the reality is, the world we're living in today, just energetically, there are energies and beings and entities and all kinds of spirits and things that we don't even, they've never even been around the planet before. So this is a very specific time in history. So to open yourself up at this time, you're even dealing with more debris, with more interference, with more chaos. And I would say that, you know, she asked the question, she sent the email in, okay,

• 43:29Speaker 01

  so she asked the question. So if anybody, they may go on the, I know people that have done, you know, plant medicine trips and they love it and they're like, oh, it was so expansive. There's also a lot of vomiting that goes on and a lot of really bad trip stuff that goes on. People get fragmented, they can't get it together after they've had the experience. You know, I recently heard of a young man who did a trip and then got completely fragmented, had to get institutionalized, was actually admitted to, you know, an institution, and now he's out, and now he's looking for another shaman. The deal is, you're not going to get it, it's not free. It's not like you can push a button or take a pill and then realize. And, you know, I would go back to say of all the acid experiments that were conducted,

• 44:14Speaker 01

  you know, in the 60s with, you know, searching for God and all that, none of that produced enlightenment, okay? So you can't get it through a false, you know, a false experience. And what I will tell you is if you meditate and you're devoted and you're sincere in your desire to know God, you can have these experiences without any drugs. I've had them. So, but you cannot dictate when they show up. You can't say, "This Friday night, I'm gonna take a drug and then I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna jump dimensions and I'm gonna see another world." But that has happened from my practice through meditation. It's never been when I expected it and it's never been what I thought.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  But, you know, I've had, I've had my share. So I've seen, I've seen it all.

• 45:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that-

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Not at all. I've seen a section, a small sliver.

• 45:06Rich Roll?

  The, the counterpoint that would be mentioned by somebody who is, you know, a proponent of this is, "Why should you have to spend your entire life meditating when you can do this and take the superhighway?"

• 45:21Speaker 01

  It's the life hack.

• 45:22Rich Roll?

  So that's, that's what I was gonna say. It's sort of interesting that the, the ascension of this modality has become so popular in mainstream culture at the same time that this whole notion of the life hack has kind of come into the zeitgeist. Because it's like, "Hey, how can I shortcut my way to X, Y, or Z, whether it's weight loss or what have you?" And, you know, I keep mentioning it, but it's like, there is no shortcut.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  There's no hack.

• 45:50Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, you can, you can, you can shortcut your way to, you know, a temporary result, I suppose. But, but if you really want to, you know, do it for real and, and get the result of having the, you know, authentic, true experience and, you know, that involves actually modifying your lifestyle and creating sustainable practices around that, you can't take a shortcut. You know, you have to put in the work and, and the value comes in that work ethic that I think gets lost in all of this.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think, well, the other part of it is, is this person wrote in, "Okay, so now, now she's using marijuana and..."

• 46:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's-

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's-

• 46:26Rich Roll?

  Let's just get into that a little bit.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:27Rich Roll?

  So that's what's interesting here. So she, she's saying that this is one of the best things that's ever happened to her, but then she comes back, now she's smoking pot and now she's-

• 46:35Speaker 01

  She can't work out.

• 46:36Rich Roll?

  She's like, you know, she's having problems with motivation-

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, duh.

• 46:41Rich Roll?

  And following through and all these sorts of things. So if you think that that is unrelated to stepping outside of your sobriety to experiment with plant medicine, then you should really reevaluate. Because these are- Of course, integrally related. They're part and parcel with each other, and they go hand in hand.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  And you know, I also know, it's like, you know, everybody's all about marijuana now, and how it's all great and whatever, and that's all fine. I mean, listen, I guess I would probably agree that it was less harmful than alcohol. I don't drink alcohol, though. You know, I don't drink alcohol, I don't use drugs, I don't smoke pot, and I'm not a proponent of smoking pot. I don't think it's a good thing. I actually know spiritually that it lowers your resistance, and it opens you to a lot of very dense, heavy energy. And if, you know, it's just a fact. You become kind of dense and laden with these kind of energies that, you know, are lethargic and kind of cloudy and kind of, you know, and

• 47:40Speaker 01

  you think of a lot of creative things while you're high, but then you can't remember them after you're not high. So, you know, I don't really know how that works. I'm no stranger to drugs. I've used my fair share early in my life, you know, so I'm not standing on a soapbox with some, you know, some kind of pretense or something. I just know what I know from my spiritual practice, and I would never do anything that altered my state. I want all of my energy to be with me. And I think that, you know, there are people now that have gone before, that have been advocates of plant medicine, that are starting to see the effects and the fact that it was, in fact, not the success that was thought

• 48:25Speaker 01

  that, you know, that it was going to be. That being said, I just need to say, there are beings, I'm sure, on the planet, whose lineage happens to be in this area, and for them, it may be the right road. But what I am saying is, on a mass level, with the amount of people, I would always advise to not partake in these kind of ceremonies.

• 48:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I had Daniel Pinchback on the podcast, for those of you who might have missed that episode. And, you know, for lack of a better term, I mean, he's sort of the, you know, modern day, kind of, you know, godfather of this whole, like, sort of, postmodern psychedelic movement, and exploring plant medicine as a means to, you know, raising... Raising consciousness, right? And I can't remember whether we talked about it on the podcast or whether it was, I think it was after we finished recording and we hit stop. And I had a brief conversation with him and I was like, you know, so what is your perspective on kind of what's happening right now with everybody wanting to get? Because it really has become like a tourism thing.

• 49:34Rich Roll?

  It's sort of like if you're well-heeled and you got, you know, a nice bank account, it's like the hip thing to like fly down to South America and have this experience and then just go back to your normal life. And there was an article in the New York Times about it recently. It was in the New York Times Sunday Magazine. I'll find the link and I'll put it in the show notes. And he had a very interesting response. You know, I thought he would say, well, you know, because he's all about that. And he's had, you know, transformative experiences in his life and he's very much, you know, kind of the Pied Piper of that community. And he expressed disillusionment. You know, I think he had this perhaps idealistic notion that when he wrote his initial books,

• 50:16Rich Roll?

  that this would spur, you know, a responsible exploration of these plants as a means to kind of create better community, like better government and, you know, better systems for everybody. And instead, that's not what happened. And it's sort of similar to what happened with the LSD movement in the 60s. Instead, what's happened is you have this, you know, sort of touristy kind of flirtation with it, but not really the impact that he was hoping to see. And so he was very frank and said, you know, I'm rethinking this whole thing, you know, in the wake of that. And I found that to be, you know, rather interesting and surprising. And I appreciated his honesty with that.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, again, in spiritual, you know, study, the proof is in the pudding. The proof is in the fruits of the practice. So if this person had really merged with some part of herself and accessed some higher place, she wouldn't have ever written the letter and she wouldn't have been smoking pot and unable. She would have been catapulted to, what do you mean? You just did like an enlightenment. Like you should be blasted into some new state of, you know, I'm happening. And the other thing is, you know, with respect, my experience of Daniel Pitchbeck, he's not exuding unconditional love and compassion. It's not the energy that surrounds that individual.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  He's extremely intellectual and extremely in his own experience. So, you know, you know, pay attention and we have, again, this is, this is a, it's a, it's a result of the human beings not wanting to take responsibility and not wanting to do the work and take, you know, to go through what they need to go through, to live a life of devotion, to live a life of connectedness. And that happens in the little moments all throughout the day. And it's not about going away on a, on a retreat and paying thousands of dollars and taking a drug and arriving someplace, you know?

• 52:21Speaker 01

  So, obviously, I feel strongly about it. I mean, I do because I think there's a danger of, you know, people getting really damaged and unable to find their way back to their spiritual connection. And, you know, that's important to me and I think I have to speak honestly about it. So, I apologize if I'm strong about it.

• 52:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, we could talk more about this later. I mean, it's a pretty, it's a big issue, you know? It's a big issue and it's on a lot of people's minds right now, but I think that pretty much laid out kind of where we stand on the whole thing for now.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 52:51Rich Roll?

  All right, so we'll move on to another question. This one came in a while ago, but it's a good one. So, this is from Sarah. I have a question for your Q and A show about fear. I think we all have some deeply ingrained fears that we may not even know about that direct our actions or inaction every day. Since you have gone through a number of significant changes in your life, such as getting sober, changing your diet, training for intense physical races.

• 53:16Rich Roll?

  And changing your career, how have you uncovered fear, addressed it, and moved through it so you can still achieve what you want to do? I am confronting fear and it's really hard. And to hear how others do it would help me continue to work through it. This is one of those things where it's like, here are the five, you know, it's like you want to say like, here are the five things that you need to do and this will no longer be an issue. But, you know, again, things like this are not black and white. We all live with fear. And I think for me, the first part of it is understanding that the idea kind of like, this idea of like, no fear, you know, overcome your fear is, is not the way to do it. I think what you have to do is accept fear. Like fear is, you know, we all have fears. So it's not about ignoring it or denying the fact that you have fear.

• 54:01Rich Roll?

  I think the first thing you have to do is acknowledge it and embrace that you have it. And then understand that it's an illusion, right? And so how do you do that? Like, how do you get from experiencing the fear on a very deep emotional level to getting to a point where you can move past it or ignore it or overcome it? And I think that begins, you know, it's like, this happens in recovery all the time. Like, the answer to these questions always boils down to the same thing, you know? And it gets annoying. It's like, really, it's the same answer again? Like, can't I get like the VIP like special secret sauce that you haven't told anyone else? But the truth is, it's like, you have to do the internal work. And that starts with meditation. And when you begin to meditate, when you begin to kind of take inventory of your life,

• 54:46Rich Roll?

  what happens is you, you begin to understand that there is a distinction between the, you know, cycling of your thinking mind and your higher consciousness. Because most people are walking around, they can't make that distinction. Whatever is going on in their brain, they think that's them. They identify with that as who they are. But to understand that that looping or that emotional state that you're in is not necessarily your higher consciousness, and in most cases is not, I think is a powerful first step. And that only comes through, you know, being in stillness and, and doing that work. And once you arrive at that place, then you can say, I'm experiencing fear. Interesting. Let's take this through to its conclusion. Like, you can, you can do sorts of exercises around it.

• 55:31Rich Roll?

  I mean, one thing you can do is, let's take this to the ultimate conclusion. Like, what's the worst thing that can happen? And write that down. And then say, what are the chances that that's going to happen? And, and to understand that it's, it really is, I mean, look... I have fear. I haven't overcome fear. I live with fear. But it's understanding that that fear doesn't have to control my decision making, right? That I can take action in the face of fear or despite fear. And once you kind of string together some experience of doing that and realize that those fears don't come to pass, then you get more confidence. You get a more sense of self, like, oh, those fears actually are not real. And the more that you can understand the extent of that illusion, I think, becomes

• 56:16Rich Roll?

  empowering to the future decisions that you make.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  Yes, that's good. I would say, let's see, well, I have three things to offer to deal with fear. The first one would be, I would even go one step beyond that and say that, you know, the fear that you're feeling is, you know, it's part of a collective, you know? Like, fear exists on this planet as a human collective. It exists in your ancestry. So you likely are experiencing fears that don't even belong to you. Like, they have nothing to do with your current life. They're just things that are inside of you that you feel.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  The other thing is, is by going into meditation and by accessing this kind of deep stillness, you can go beyond the story. And so it's not even like, understanding the story, it's kind of dropping the entire story. So, you know, I studied with an Indian master years back, and he used to share this beautiful example of that, you know, in a human life, we basically create a chain of experience. And it's really by choice. Like, basically, our ego creates some setup or some idea of who we are. And they create a chain, your ego creates a chain. So, most likely, people create a chain of suffering.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  So they'll say, oh, when I was three, my father left my family, so that's the first link. And then the next chain will be, you know, when I was five, I, you know, my Parents divorced, I'm sorry, father already left, already left, I better use a different one. So the second chain would be, you know, nobody likes me, or the third chain might be, you know, I'm not attractive. The fourth chain may be, you know, I've never been good at anything. The fifth chain may be, you know, I'm not very smart. And so you just start to pick these selectively, these events out of your life, and you start to form the idea of who you are, right? But, and, and less common, people also could make a chain of joy out of it.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  Like, I'm always, I'm so pretty, and I always get picked, and things always go my way. So they create a chain of, of this happy illusion. And what he was sharing is that both, both are illusions, both are not correct, because the truth is, you are the consciousness behind these events. And how many millions of moments have happened since the day you were born? I mean, you could just as easily have picked up a different set for a different, you know, a different outlook on who you are. So again, going to meditation is unclutching, letting go of all that, just simply dropping it and letting go. And, and if you look at it as a physical thing, like your fear chain, you can perceive it

• 59:13Speaker 01

  and make the decision to drop it, to just drop it, and then see...

• 59:17Rich Roll?

  But how do you, how do you drop it?

• 59:19Speaker 01

  You drop it again and again and again and again. You make the intention, you actually feel the chain, and you, you see that it's an illusion, and you say, okay, I'm not participating in it, I'm going to, I'm going to release from this.

• 59:33Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Well, I think that that, it's important to understand that you don't just do that once and it's done. Like, that's gonna, like, for me, I would have to do that many, many times every single day.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  But that's why it's a practice.

• 59:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  So it's, it's a process, you know, it's, you're, you're constantly coming back to the breath, constantly coming back to dropping it, constantly. But it's the way that you're looking at it. You're not identifying with your fear, like, this is me, this is a part of me, you know, this lives in me, this is, you know, part of my story. So that's the first little technique that you can play with. The second thing that I would say is I would recommend that you practice my meditation. So Jai Release on the Ritual website, it is specifically designed to clear fear from your body through a humming technique, and then to align you with your own soul

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  purpose, and it puts you actually in a safe energetic field of your own, which will then shield you from feeling any other fears that happen to be planetary, or from your friend's, you know, aunt who passed away, who's hanging around in your bedroom, or whatever it could be. It could be a million different things. And so, again, sealing your field, understanding that we are not just human beings, we are spiritual beings having a human experience, and we have light body, we have other parts of our bodies that is not the physical. So starting to take care of these things, it's like brushing your teeth, and in this program, this 30-minute program, there is a section of it which is a visualization which puts

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  you in your own protective Garden of Eden, not mine, you're not connecting to me, you're connecting to yourself. This is very, very powerful in dealing with fears. And the third thing that I would offer is I would share that you are able to program your sleep state through intention. So what I would do is I would write down, I would take a minute, and I would write down all your fears, and really go deep, like really take a couple hours, and really go through every single thing that is terrifying you, or every, anything that comes up that knocks on you that's there. And then, at night, before you go to sleep, you should sit in meditation, close your eyes, and say to your higher self, call your

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  higher self in, and the teams of beings that work with you, and say, "I rescind any and all participation in fear programs pertaining to lack, fear, or separation of any kind." And then say, "I claim my God sovereign power. I am God sovereign and free." Do that every night for 21 days, and see where your fear is at that point.

• 1:02:28Rich Roll?

  I think on top of that, a good practice to begin to engage in is to take behaviors in contradiction to that fear, right? So if there's something that scares you, to take an action that you're afraid of taking. And it can be something really small, you know, to begin with. I mean, I remember just in my own personal experience, you know, looking back on what are the biggest things that scared me that I walked through. Well, you know, getting sober was terrifying. I thought my life would be over and would be boring and terrible. And, you know, it's quite the opposite, of course. But that was extremely... I thought my life was on the line. You know, I thought that like my life was gonna be over. It was very, very scary. And then I think the next thing that was super scary was walking out on a very secure

• 1:03:13Rich Roll?

  law firm job back in 2000, when I decided that I didn't want to be a corporate lawyer in a big law firm anymore. My whole life had been premised on taking the safe path, like, you know, do the right thing and get the good job and all of that kind of thing. Like, my entire life was founded on that idea. And it became so intolerable for so many years, like jamming that square peg into a round hole, until I was in so much pain that I literally couldn't show up for work anymore and I had to quit. I didn't have a plan. I didn't have any plan. I wasn't... I didn't have another job lined up. I didn't know what I was gonna do. I just knew that I couldn't show up at that place anymore. And I had nothing, you know, I had nothing to do with anyone else other than my extreme discomfort. And I was compelled to quit. And I didn't know...

• 1:03:58Rich Roll?

  I had enough money that would last me like maybe five or six weeks. That was it. And I had no job. And I'd never been without a job, without a safety net in my life. And for me, that was about as real... I couldn't imagine, you know, sort of trusting anything outside of myself to take care of me. And so I remember just literally shaking. Like, our friend Gordy had to come and help me out, like, help me pack out of my office that day. It was absolutely terrifying. And I look back on that now and it's like... Why was that so scary? Well, at the time, you know, it was life and death for me, you know? And that, but that decision was, you know, a first step in basically, you know, a 15-year process that's brought us to here. It was one thing that I had to overcome.

• 1:04:42Rich Roll?

  And when I did that, like, for example, when I got sober and realized that not only did I not die, but my life got better. And when I quit the law firm job and realized I didn't starve and I didn't become homeless and, you know, I figured out a way and made things work, then that was another little experience where I could say, wow, my fear, you know, really wasn't real.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  That's true. I mean, that's super powerful and stepping outside of your comfort zone and, yeah, living a little, doing something that scares you, you know, every day. It can be little or it can be big. But yeah, it's very, very powerful. And in order to, in order to transform and really become who we are, we have to face our fears. You know, you can't stay locked in your room your whole life.

• 1:05:24Rich Roll?

  Well, like the adage is like, you know, courage, courage doesn't mean you're not scared. It just means that you take the action in spite of the fear.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:05:31Rich Roll?

  So that's what courage is. Like, do you have courage? Can you invest in your own personal courage in small ways and ultimately later in big ways? Right?

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:05:40Rich Roll?

  Okay, let's move on to another one.

• 1:05:44Rich Roll?

  Let's see, this is from Justin. "Thank you for the endless hours of inspiration that your podcast provides. The RRP was a huge part of my transition to veganism nearly a year ago. And at 30, I've literally never felt better. This lifestyle, which I once thought bizarre and impossible, has helped me shed pounds of fat at pounds of muscle and eliminate both alcohol and caffeine from my diet. My question, starting from the premise that the movement towards a plant-based diet is critical to addressing the health crisis facing both society and the environment, what can the average person do that goes beyond standing in the light, voting with our dollars and the like? In other words, what options exist beyond modeling behavior but short of quitting our nine-to-fives to start a health and wellness empire?" Hell, I wish it was an empire. It's, it's...

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  He's gonna start a Plant Power meetup.

• 1:06:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so I think that there's plenty of things that you can do. I mean, I think that, you know, when Julia is talking about the stories that we all tell ourselves about who we are and how we pick isolated incidents along our, you know, journey and create an identity around that.

• 1:06:49Rich Roll?

  The idea that you can reformulate that and create a new story about yourself is not only very powerful, but I think is almost your responsibility. There's nothing more powerful than your story. And you know, I like to think that on some level, I've sort of mentored Josh LaJani along this path because when I first met him, he was just a guy who had this experience and I've been encouraging him for the last couple of years to kind of own his story and share it. And now he's in a position where he goes out and he gets speaking gigs and he's, you know, he's really taken that mantle and run with it. And it's such a beautiful thing to watch him step into that and really own it, you know, because he was sort of like, I'm just a guy who cares, you know, like who cares about my story? And I'm like, dude, your story is so powerful. There is nothing more powerful than your

• 1:07:33Rich Roll?

  story and you need to share it. You can help a lot of people. And you know, what began with some trepidation, now I see a guy who really can stand firmly in that and own it and communicate with people in a way that now he is transforming lives everywhere he goes. And that's an amazing, beautiful, phenomenal thing. If this podcast had done nothing else except help, you know, sort of catalyze that in him, then this whole experience and everything that we've invested in it is a win, right? And I think anybody can do that, right? It doesn't have to be, you don't have to lose 200 pounds in order to have something powerful and important to say that can be of service to other people. So I think my message to you is, it's not about quitting your nine to five job. It's not

• 1:08:18Rich Roll?

  about that. It's about really just owning your story and starting to begin to share that in a way that feels right to you. You know, it might be a little uncomfortable at first and it can start with just, you know, posting pictures on Instagram of what you're eating or, you know, it can be really simple stuff like writing a blog on Facebook or starting your own blog. You know, it can be tiny little things, taking, you know, consistent actions to kind of put a message out there that has been helpful to you, that you think can help other people. And then just sort of, you know, fertilizing that little seed and being open to where it will lead you, you know? And that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to lead to, you know, a career. Health and wellness, it's going to take you out of your nine to five, but who knows?

• 1:09:01Rich Roll?

  You know, you don't know until you embark on that journey. Like, I didn't know what that we would be doing, what we're doing now. You know, I just started sharing my story, and this is where it has led. So, I think being open to that and being willing to, not to share like the ABCs of like, here's what you eat, but like, really, what is it about your story that's unique to you? And, and having the willingness and the openness to be vulnerable, to share that aspect of, of your personal journey, because I think the more specific you can be, and the more kind of emotional-based you can be, the more capable you will be to have other people relate to you on a very human level.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's super powerful, and I think also that it is the, um, the personal nature of it, or the, you know, the uniqueness and the transparency, the vulnerability that actually makes, makes something compelling. And I would say, at the core of all of this is meditation and spiritual connection, so that you can understand who you are and what, what you want to express in your life, so that you don't go, you know, down some, you know, some other path, and you haven't really connected in with what you're really supposed to be doing. And the key thing that can lead you to that connection is a consistent meditation practice.

• 1:10:16Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Good. Well said. Well, I think I, uh, I want to talk about one more thing before we lock it down for today. I've gotten a couple emails and inquiries from people over the last year about, uh, about, about two things. The first thing is, um, if we could put together something like a vegan kitchen startup pack, or something like that. And, in other words, could we have more resources available on the website that would help people kind of, you know, embark on this transition? And, I've been thinking a lot about that, so I wanted to kind of put it out to you guys if you would be interested, um, in having like a resources section on the website that, uh, would be kind of commonly asked questions, like, where do you get your protein, to, you

• 1:11:00Rich Roll?

  know, what are some books that I can, that I can read, or I can recommend to other people who are interested in this? How do I answer this question? What are some documentaries? Like things like that. What are some of the products that I, you know, might be a good idea to get to begin this journey? I mean, a lot of that is in the two books, Finding Ultra and The Plant Power Way. But to be able to kind of have it readily available on the site and have somebody be able to like, share a link with a friend or something like that, I think could be cool. So if you guys are into that, I've been thinking about it for a while, but you know, it's just, we've been all over the place. I haven't had time to sit down and really kind of map that out and put the work in required to make that something that would actually be helpful. I mean, what do you think of that, Julie?

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  I think that would be cool if it's all in one place and easy for someone to just grab it and grab the information. Maybe it could be in a PDF where someone could forward it to someone else.

• 1:11:47Rich Roll?

  Well, I think it would be like click resources on the website and then there would be a list of, you know, all different kinds of subject matters. And if you click on one, it would open up like you click on books and then it would just open up to a whole, like a bibliography or whatever, something like that. So it would be easy to navigate.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  That's good. I'm just wondering if it should be in a format where someone could send it to someone else, like a whole packet.

• 1:12:09Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  You know, because I think-

• 1:12:10Rich Roll?

  Maybe do a PDF.

• 1:12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it should be a PDF so someone can send it or they can, you know, if someone's in a health crisis or ready to make a shift or they're like, I'm just sick of being overweight or whatever it is, they can just go, hey, here's the PDF. It's free. There you go.

• 1:12:25Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, I'll put some thought into that. And then the kind of counter piece to that is there's been some interest in having a forum on the site, like a forum where, you know, we could create community where people could come and ask questions and, you know, other people could answer those questions and, you know, basically have a discussion about the latest podcast episode or anything for that matter, I suppose. So if you guys are interested in that, let me know in the comment section on this episode and we'll contemplate whether that makes sense for us.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, great.

• 1:12:56Rich Roll?

  What do you think about that?

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  I think that's awesome.

• 1:12:57Rich Roll?

  All right. And I wanted to close it down with one thing, which is to like, just try to bring people into the show a little bit more by reading, reading like some fan mail. Where did that email go? Oh, here's one. So I just picked one at random. We get tons of these great letters and I just, I love it. So I thought it would be fun to just kind of, you know, share it with you guys. So this one's from Paul Jackson and Paul writes, "Thanks so much for reaching out and sharing some of your story. It means more to me than you know. It's why I do what I do and I'm so..." Oh, wait, that's me writing back to him. Where's the email that he sent to me?

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  You're so complimentary.

• 1:13:33Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 1:13:36Rich Roll?

  You know what? I don't even have it here. I'm gonna have to find it the next time.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Must not be supposed to happen.

• 1:13:42Rich Roll?

  No. Uh, I don't know what I did with it. Oh, well, I'm out of sorts here. But here's what I can do. I'm gonna leave you guys with this. I posted this on Facebook today. Let me pull it up right now. So, there's this, there was an article that came across my radar in the Rapid City Journal, Rapid City, Iowa. Let me load it right now. This guy, basically, while it's loading here, apologies. This is great podcasting.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Should I sing?

• 1:14:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you can.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  While we're waiting? No, you know what I do want to do? I want to just mention, I just want to mention this couple who actually came out to Jack Rabbit Sports in New York. Did I get the name right?

• 1:14:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Jack Rabbit Sports.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  There was a couple, a beautiful couple, who came up in line and they bought a Plant Power Way book. Actually, they bought two, I think. And if I'm remembering correctly, their names were Travis and, is it Anna? Was it Anna and Travis? Anna, if that's not your name, I'm really sorry. Anyway, they were so beautiful and radiant and really super sweet. And they told us that they actually live on a boat and they sail all over the world. And they sailed into New York and came to our event. And they said that they listened to the podcast on long passages through the ocean. And so I just wanted to say, "Hey," and give you guys a shout out.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  And just let you know that we're with you. And please dive in the water and swim for us and think of us when you're out there. It's really cool, you guys.

• 1:15:22Rich Roll?

  Very cool. And, okay, so this article is in the Rapid City Journal, I think Rapid City, Iowa. It's called "Our Good Deeds: Family Raises Money For Children's Tumor Foundation." And it goes like this. "While stationed in Afghanistan, Ellsworth Air Force Base Captain Lance Cannon was inspired by podcasts about ultra-athlete Rich Roll, who went from being unhealthy and 50 pounds overweight to running five Ironman triathlons in a week. Cannon decided to train for and..." Compete in an Iron Man of his own as part of the event, he and his family are raising $5,000 for the Children's Tumor Foundation. So it's a long article, it goes on and on and on, but I just, it's just amazing to me and so cool that, that you know, the message through the podcast is inspiring people out

• 1:16:04Rich Roll?

  in the world to go, you know, on their own path of advocacy and service. And, you know, again, that's what this podcast is all about and it is why we do what we do. And it was just so great to see an article of somebody saying, you know what, I like, I like this message that's being put out right here. What can I do and what am I gonna do?

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great example.

• 1:16:23Rich Roll?

  Very, very cool.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're a lovely couple.

• 1:16:25Rich Roll?

  I'll put a link to this article up.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Very cool, you guys, congrats on that.

• 1:16:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thank you for doing that and hopefully you guys will hear this and there's a link to support them and their mission in this article and I'll put all that in the show notes, so you guys should support this. It's awesome, very, very cool thing that they're doing. So that's it, I think we did it for today.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  Awesome, thanks for having me on.

• 1:16:48Rich Roll?

  Appreciate you coming on and sharing your wisdom. So we're gonna start doing more of these, like I said, getting up to a week is really my goal. I'm committed to trying to find a way to make that happen without killing me, but I really think it is the next step and the next evolution that I need to make with the podcast. So thank you guys for tuning in today. I appreciate you spending a little time with us. Thanks for all the love, for sharing the podcast, for using the Amazon banner at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. For the time being, until we figure out this new, however we're gonna do this, send your questions for future Q and A podcasts to [email protected]. And of course, for all your plant power needs, visit richroll.com.

• 1:17:28Rich Roll?

  We got nutrition products, books, education products, 100% organic cotton garments, we got Julie's meditation program that she talked about today, which you guys should all check out. We just released a new Tech T running shirt, it's a white Tech T with the Plant Power Leaf logo on it. And just the other day... We have a new product on the site. Our friend, the eminently talented artist Andrew Pasquale, who is very much an up and coming artist in the art world here in Los Angeles. In fact, he just got back from Art Basel in Switzerland. He's doing some really amazing provocative work in the food space. In other words, sort of politically minded work about our food system.

• 1:18:11Rich Roll?

  And he has a series on the organic label. And we're offering prints on our website, like beautiful, limited edition prints on this like beautiful cloth paper that you can either get framed or unframed. I think we have 250. We have a limited number of them.

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  It's a very cool piece.

• 1:18:28Rich Roll?

  But it's super, super cool. So we're honored that Andrew was willing to offer up his artwork on our site and make it available to you guys. So I would check that out too. And I'll put a link, obviously, in the website to that so you guys can check it. There was an email blast that went out about it. If you guys aren't subscribing to my newsletter, please do so, so you can be the first to know about all that kind of good stuff. So that's it. If you're into online courses, we got two on MindBodyGreen.com, The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition, which Julie and I talk about. It's sort of a good companion piece to The Plant Power Way, how to get more plants in your life and how to kind of embark on that journey, right? Three and a half hours of streaming video content. And I have a course also called The Art of Living with Purpose, which is kind of all

• 1:19:12Rich Roll?

  about some of the things we talked about today, the internal work and kind of creating a foundation to set yourself up for success on the best, most appropriate trajectory for you, how to set goals and work towards them so that you can achieve them to live your best, most authentic life, right? And that one, I think, is about two and a half hours of streaming video content, online community, all that kind of good stuff. So that's it. Thanks for supporting the show, for telling a friend, for sharing it on social media. We love you guys and I'll see you guys in a couple days, right?

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:19:43Rich Roll?

  You want to take us out, Julie?

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  And if anybody wants to reach me, you can go to SriMati.com.

• 1:19:49Rich Roll?

  That's right.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  S-R-I-M-A-T-I.com. I'm also SriMati on, I don't even say it that way. I say that because Rich says it that way. It's SriMati, but it's S-R-I-M-A-T-I on Instagram and Twitter. So come follow me, see some cool images of new food that I'm creating and, you know, get some more spiritual.

• 1:20:10Rich Roll?

  Downloads.

• 1:20:11Speaker 01

  Downloads.

• 1:20:12Rich Roll?

  All right, right on. All right, you guys, peace.

• 1:20:17Rich Roll?

  Plants. Namaste.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  I'm here now, watching the space. Feeling the pain in my heart. My skin bleeds. No resistance. I'm not wishing on a star. I'm here now.

• 1:20:59Speaker 02

  And I'm here now, watching the space. Allowing it to be as it is. My head screams. No resistance. I'm not wishing on a star. I'm here now.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  You and I are one, don't you see? Violet flames, a rare hue. And if you look a little deeply, you will find. I'm here now.

• 1:22:27Speaker 02

  Torsion jewels and silver crowns Taste so bitter now

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  And I'm here now Watching the space Feeling pain in my heart My skin needs

• 1:23:04Speaker 02

  No resistance

• 1:23:08Speaker 02

  I'm not wishing On a star

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  I'm here now

• 1:23:24Speaker 02

  Catherine

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  Catherine I'm here now