Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz The Lip Bar: Melissa Butler About this episode While working long hours as a Wall Street analyst, Melissa Butler started making lipstick in her kitchen as a hobby. But it soon turned into an obsession, costing thousands of dollars. She was frustrated by the lack of diversity in the cosmetics industry, and as a Black woman, wanted to create lipstick colors that complimented her complexion and style. So in 2010, she launched The Lip Bar, with bold colors like green and purple, and boozy names like "Cosmo" and "Sour Apple Martini." Undeterred by a disastrous appearance on Shark Tank with her partner Rosco Spears, Melissa was motivated to pitch her lipstick to Target, and in 2016, launched a new color on Target's online store. Today, The Lip Bar has expanded to 500 Target stores, and has continued to grow a following, despite the pain points of the pandemic.
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Transcript 15,619 words · 7 speakers
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0:00 Guy Raz? We get support from US Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't. Say you're 18 months in. Business is growing. You've got expenses coming from six directions. Gas for the van, office supplies, your phone bill, team lunches that are actually client meetings, and you're putting it all on whatever card you grabbed in year one. You're not thinking about it. Why would you? You've got bigger problems.
0:45 Guy Raz? But here's the thing. Path A, you keep going like that. End of the year, you're sorting through statements, trying to figure out what went where. You've left hundreds, maybe thousands, on the table in rewards you never earned. Money that could have gone back into the business. Path B, you pause and get the US Bank Triple Cash Rewards Visa Business Card. Now, you're earning 3% cash back on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes
1:30 Guy Raz? based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every founder on this show started with a hard question. Not the marketing plan, the 2:00 AM kind. Is this idea any good? Am I the one to build it? Should I quit my job? Anthropic got built the same way. A public benefit corporation founded on one Hard question. How do we make sure AI goes well for people?
2:14 Guy Raz? So they asked over 100,000 people their hopes and their fears and are publishing what they find, even the uncomfortable parts. Me? I've got my own hard question about AI. Here it is. If everyone has access to something that can help them write the business plan, build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea. What separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt.
2:54 Guy Raz? Does your team want a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship? Well, Framer is built exactly for that. With Framer, you design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting and a CMS built in, so the work is production ready from day one. And you can get it done with help from Framer's AI agents. Framer is the AI website builder that helps creators, teams and businesses ship production-ready sites faster than ever while getting every detail right. Prompt, inspect, edit and publish in one place at a whole new pace. AI agents and humans work together.
3:36 Guy Raz? The agents bring speed and scale and people bring taste, judgment and control. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/built for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/built. Rules and restrictions may apply. AI isn't just opening new business opportunities. It's changing the way businesses get work done. The questions they ask, the decisions they make, the routine tasks they can hand off. That's the idea behind NetSuite Next, the next generation of NetSuite with AI woven into the tools your business already relies on.
4:21 Guy Raz? NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new, expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.
5:06 Guy Raz? If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get NetSuite's free business guide, Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/built. The guide is free to you at netsuite.com/built. netsuite.com/built. Hey, really quick before we start the show. The How I Built This book is now a New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestseller. So, thank you to all of you who ordered it and for your support of this show. If you haven't picked it up, and you want to learn the secrets of how to develop an entrepreneurial mindset, How I Built This, the book, is for you. It's now available wherever books are sold and in most countries around the world,
5:52 Guy Raz? or by visiting howibuiltthis.com or guyrazz.com. And thanks.
6:02 Speaker 01 When people came to my house, like, it was literally a lab. Like, I definitely didn't have an apartment. You know, I've ruined stoves. I've lost security deposits. People would come over my house and want ice, and I have no ice because my freezer's filled with lipstick molds. I'm like, oh, if you want ice, you're barking up the wrong tree. I don't have ice. I have lipstick.
6:27 Guy Raz? From NPR, it's How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.
6:39 Guy Raz? I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Melissa Butler launched a lipstick brand at her kitchen stove and got it into hundreds of Target stores, all the while challenging an industry to change the way it thinks about color and beauty.
6:56 Guy Raz? There are some industries that are really hard to break into if you're looking to start a business. For example, a car company. Just think how hard that would be. Aside from lots of experience and engineering know-how, you'd need an insane amount of money just to get it off the ground, which is why you don't see that many new car companies every year. Now, one day, it may very well be possible that someone will figure out how to make cars in a really cheap and cost-efficient way that could allow lots more entrepreneurs to enter that category, which is essentially what happened to the cosmetics industry in the past two decades. It used to be that getting into cosmetics
7:39 Guy Raz? required a lot of experience, a network of connections, and lots of money. But today, the barriers to entry are much lower. There are dozens of white-label manufacturers all over the world that will happily make your product for a relatively small price. And it's meant that there's been an explosion of new cosmetics brands over the past decade, which makes sense, because the global beauty industry is worth half a trillion dollars. Lipstick alone, it's a $9 billion global market. I mean, there is a lot of money in beauty. And so, to stand out, brands really have to be about more than just the products,
8:21 Guy Raz? which is exactly how Melissa Butler thought about her brand, The Lip Bar. When she started making her own lipstick in her apartment, she knew she wanted something that not only challenged the idea of what beauty is, but how we define who it's meant to apply to. Melissa wanted to make lipsticks that were bold and brash and vivid, in colors that, at the time, weren't widely available. Blacks and golds and purples and bright neon pinks. Shades and colors that were expressive and strong and confident, and most importantly, made for a whole category of women who weren't being served by the market, which happened to be Melissa's cohort,
9:06 Guy Raz? black and brown women who didn't feel like there was a makeup brand made with them in mind. The story of how Melissa turned her kitchen stove project into a cosmetics brand that's now in hundreds of Target stores across the country includes a cross-country promotional tour in a retrofitted airport shuttle bus, a disastrous appearance on Shark Tank, and a decision to move the business from New York to her hometown of Detroit, where she grew up with her sister and her mom in the 1990s.
9:39 Speaker 01 My mom was a crane operator, which is really crazy to say right now because I'm 34 and I've never, ever met anyone else that was a crane operator. But basically, she worked at a steel factory. You know, Detroit is automotive. So she was at a steel company that created steel and parts for the automotive industry.
10:01 Guy Raz? And so she would leave for work in the morning with a hard hat?
10:04 Speaker 01 Steel boots. Yeah, definitely steel toe boots that I would sometimes put on, and they were heavy as hell, that I would put on and like kind of wobble around the house with. And so she would go to work at 11:00 PM and come home in the morning. And so I... I used to look at it as a disadvantage that I was raised in a one parent household because, you know, everyone needs their dad and everyone needs both parents. You need that that nature and that nurture. You need that protector and that provider. You need your mom to be soft, or at least that's what I used to think. And as I've gotten older, I realized that it's probably one of my biggest advantages
10:45 Speaker 01 because watching my mom do something and work in an industry that is so male dominated. I think it was only her and her best friend. They were the only two women in that entire steel factory. She saw that that she had to live life for her and that no one was coming to save her. So she taught us very early that we had to save ourselves. So it was like she directionally ingrained this pathway for both me and my sister.
11:13 Guy Raz? Was your mom, um, was she pretty strict?
11:16 Speaker 01 No, my mom wasn't strict at all. Like my mom was working, she was working all the time. I could have been a very wild kid, but I wasn't like, I didn't sneak boys into the house. Like I remember growing up and like, you know, those curious teenage years where you're, you may be interested in like drinking, or maybe you want to smoke pot for the first time, or even like sex, like I, I wasn't interested in any of it. And I've never been a person to like study. I wouldn't, I would never say that I was a good student, but I always got good grades.
11:50 Guy Raz? I don't, I don't know Detroit super well. I've only been there briefly a couple of times. Tell me about your neighborhood. Was it, I mean, your mom, I'm assuming was it like, was a union, was a union job and probably had a pretty solidly middle class income and, and health insurance and those kinds of things that came with the job. What was your neighborhood like?
12:08 Speaker 01 Guy, my neighborhood was horrible, actually. Um, and I'm from like one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in Detroit, but I never felt unsafe.
12:19 Speaker 01 And even though we didn't have a lot, I never needed anything. So like in high school, for instance, I was, I was one of the quote unquote cool girls, like who had like the designer clothes, but that was really my mom doing her best to, to provide for her, for us, what she felt like would satisfy us. And now, when I talked to her, I remember maybe a year ago, I was like, Mom, we were living way beyond our means. And she's like, Yeah, but I did it for you.
12:50 Guy Raz? Yeah.
12:50 Speaker 01 And I'm like, That was irresponsible. And we kind of laugh about it now, but she was like, I just wanted you to be happy and I wanted to, to be able to provide for you the life that, that I felt like you deserved.
13:04 Guy Raz? Okay, so you, you did well at school. You, you got good grades.
13:08 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
13:09 Guy Raz? And I guess you were able to test into this pretty competitive public high school in Detroit called Cass Tech, right?
13:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's, it's right near downtown and it's, it's essentially a college prep school. And it was probably 98% black students. Now it's a little bit more diverse because the city of Detroit is changing. So right now, there's a lot more investment in the city, whereas, you know, 15 years ago, no one was downtown Detroit. So when I went to Cass Tech, it was surrounded by, by people who were either homeless or drug addicts. So it's like this amazing school that's in the midst of all the blight. So Detroit went through a really tough time and it hasn't been until maybe the last, you know, 10 years that it's, it's experienced this renaissance.
14:01 Guy Raz? Do you remember as a, like as a high school kid, thinking, I'm going to get out of this place? Like, I am going to leave this place and I'm gonna...
14:12 Guy Raz? Make money and I'm gonna do something really interesting with my life. Like, do you remember having those thoughts?
14:18 Speaker 01 I don't. Um, I don't, I don't think that I thought about, of course, I thought about, you know, making money and girls are taught that, that we should build fairy tales in our minds. I remember as early as maybe eight years old, thinking like, oh, when I'm 24, I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna have children and I'm gonna be rich. That was probably the fairy tale that I told myself, not knowing what any of that meant. So I, I never thought that I needed to leave Detroit. Even with me living in a not so nice neighborhood, I didn't think that there was anything wrong with it.
15:00 Guy Raz? But, I mean, soon after you graduated, you, you would wind up leaving Detroit. I, I, in fact, I mean, you left Michigan, right?
15:08 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I was like, well, if I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna go away. And most of my really good friends actually stayed in Michigan, but I knew that I wanted to go to a, to a HBCU.
15:19 Guy Raz? Yeah.
15:19 Speaker 01 That was a given. I knew that I wanted to be around black people. And so I didn't want to go to what we call a PWI, which is a predominantly white institution. I knew that I didn't want to go to Michigan State or, or Michigan because I wanted to have some pride and really have the black experience.
15:40 Guy Raz? Right. So I guess you start off at Alabama State, which is in Montgomery, Alabama. But, but then you decided to transfer to, to Florida, to Florida A and M in Tallahassee.
15:51 Speaker 01 Yeah. And they were both two really great HBCUs and they both had really good business programs. Like, I knew that I wanted to get into business because in high school, I used to work at my cousin's clothing shop. So my cousin is my first exposure to entrepreneurship. Like, he had a store in the mall and he taught me everything about margin and pricing your product and hiring people. And he also gave me a lot of independence. And now that I say that, I think that was the theme of my childhood.
16:22 Guy Raz? Yeah.
16:23 Speaker 01 Having independence and, and being given this room to be a free thinker and come up with, with the answer for yourself because I'll never forget, it was probably Christmas Eve and he allowed me to count all of the money that we made that day. And it was the most money I had ever seen. It was insane. And I think I counted maybe like $12,000. And I was just like, oh, my God, he's rich. Like, I thought.
16:50 Guy Raz? Yeah.
16:51 Speaker 01 I was like, whoa, I couldn't believe that. Number one, he let me count the money. And then number two, that we had made that much money that day.
17:00 Speaker 01 And my entire goal for going to college wasn't necessarily because I wanted to get a higher education. I didn't really care about it that much. But I went to college because I was like, this is how I can make money.
17:12 Guy Raz? So, so what was your plan? Like, what, how were you gonna do that?
17:16 Speaker 01 So, literally, I switched my concentration and my focus to business finance. And that's where I stayed. And I was like, OK, well, if I'm gonna do this finance thing, I'm gonna go and work on Wall Street. Because, you know, now I can be the wolf of Wall Street, again, being, being influenced by, by pop culture. So, like, I didn't know anything about it. Like, again, my mom was a crane operator. And I had a cousin who was an entrepreneur. But I didn't know that there were so many different paths to make money.
17:45 Guy Raz? Yeah. OK, so you, you wanted to get into finance. But, but before you graduated, already, you actually spent some time in China, like, like in Beijing?
17:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:54 Guy Raz? Learning Mandarin?
17:55 Speaker 01 For six months.
17:56 Guy Raz? Oh, wow.
17:57 Speaker 01 And I had just been really fascinated with China and this idea that China was about to be the next superpower. And I was like, that would make me valuable. If I wanted to learn about business, you know, if I'm this business girl, I should go to China and learn a little bit about their business.
18:14 Guy Raz? Yeah.
18:14 Speaker 01 But it was a complete culture shock. I mean, I, I think I was sharing that literally my, my entire life was black. Like, I came from black Detroit. You know, I went to a black, all-black high school in Detroit. I went to a black college. And now here I am, the only black woman, and I'm in the middle of Beijing. It was, it was so odd. And I think they were also shocked, you know? People would come up to me and, and touch my skin. And everyone automatically assumed that I was, you know, from an African country. Because if you had black skin, then you were automatically from Africa. And if you were from America, then you were blond-haired, blue eyes.
18:54 Guy Raz? Right. I mean, how would you, like, assess the whole experience? Was it?
18:58 Speaker 01 It was life-changing.
18:59 Guy Raz? Yeah.
19:00 Speaker 01 Oh my God, it was life changing. Like, I understood like how big and small the world was. I understood how a woman from Detroit could have such synergy and connection with a woman from Iceland. Like, one of my really good friends who I met there, she was from Iceland. And like, she was my best friend when I was in the program, sort of thing. And we would just talk about a lot of the same things, even though we had a completely different life. And I think for the first time in my life, I understood that we were all human and it wasn't just black, white, Asian. It was just humans.
19:39 Guy Raz? Wow. So you come back to the US and you decide to go work on Wall Street for Barclays Bank. And when you got to New York, what was that like? Was it exhilarating? Were you just like, were you just kind of blown away by it? Or were you sort of, was it unnerving to be in this kind of corporate environment? What was your, what's your memory of starting out at Barclays as an analyst?
20:04 Speaker 01 I thought, and I still think that New York is the most magical city on the planet. I was awestruck by all the big buildings. And I remember my first time, like, being in, in like, the financial district, or, you know, our first office that I worked in was in Jersey City. And just like, being like a banker girl, I was like, whoa, this is crazy. And I started very quickly meeting other people who like, worked at JP Morgan Chase, or worked at Goldman Sachs. And, and it was like a whole world. But I remember, you know, my first week being really excited and like, expressing that I wanted to learn and like, I wanted to learn as much as possible. And I wanted to, to be good. And like, one
20:48 Speaker 01 of my managers was like, get over it, kid. They give shit bonuses. And I was like, wait, what? I didn't know what that that really meant. I didn't know what a good bonus was, what a bad bonus was. I just knew that he was unhappy. And a lot of my team members weren't were unhappy. So I think very quickly, like, I learned that I wasn't gonna learn that much. But then also that if I stayed there, that I would be in this environment where no one likes their job. And like, from my perspective, I'm like, hell, I just got all these student loans. I had racked up like fifty thousand dollars.
21:25 Guy Raz? Pay them back.
21:25 Speaker 01 But also, like, I didn't do all that. I didn't go to college and get these student loans and and go to China for six months to be in a career that I hate. And then, from what you're telling me, isn't necessarily even a a career path that's that's desirable anymore. So I was disheartened, if I'm gonna be honest. It was mostly white men and, you know, they would ask me questions about my hair. Because I was, as a black woman, like, one of your superpowers is that you get to change your hair all the time and do whatever you want to do. And I was constantly, like, asked about either my hair or my clothes, or if something happened in the media with a black person. And this is oftentimes the the plight of a black person working in corporate America. You're never able to be an individual.
22:08 Guy Raz? Yeah.
22:09 Speaker 01 Like, so every day, I had to answer for the entire black race. And and it was exhausting. Oh, working at Barclays was exhausting.
22:17 Guy Raz? Fair enough. I mean, it sounds like the most boring job on the planet. Let's be honest.
22:20 Speaker 01 It is.
22:21 Guy Raz? Finance just sounds so boring. I mean, I know you make tons of money if you stick with it, but my god.
22:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's not fun.
22:27 Guy Raz? So you're doing this. You're clearly, this is not like what you want to devote your life to. But you need the job, you need the money, and you're kind of working and earning your paycheck. But I guess on the side, you were kind of just looking for different creative outlets. And and I read that one of them was making soap.
22:45 Speaker 01 Yeah, so I had gotten really into um this soap that was sold at Whole Foods. It was so expensive. My mom thought that I was crazy because I tried to call her like, Mom, I found this soap. It was so cool. And she's like, what is it? I'm like, well, first of all, it's expensive. It's like $6 a bar. And she's like, $6 soap? I grew up where my mom would buy like, you know, the the six pack or eight pack of like Dove or Dial. And that whole thing was $6. She's like, you're buying one bar of soap for $6? She's like, I don't want to know about it. So I'm buying these expensive soaps and as a hobby. Because also I I'm now listening to my mom like, wow, I am spending a lot of money on soap. And I'm like, well, if this soap is so great because it's natural and it's handmade, then why can't I make it?
23:30 Speaker 01 So I first started making soap for my own personal use.
23:35 Guy Raz? How did you? And by the way, you're just like going online and and looking up like how to make soap?
23:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, there were there were tons of like forums. I took a soap making class. I'm buying all sorts of ingredients. I'm on YouTube, learning how to make soap. I'm like reading books on soap making like I'm I'm literally going in. It's it's insane.
23:54 Guy Raz? How do you? And by the way, and what did you learn about how to make a bar of soap? Like um, like I'm assuming there's like maybe glycerin or vegetable oil or like, um, I don't know. What? Yeah, what what would you buy to and like melt it down on like your stove on your stove top? Like in a pot?
24:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, basically, in a pot with a Pyrex, like a double boiler.
24:15 Guy Raz? Oh, okay.
24:16 Speaker 01 Um, you could you could make soap with glycerin, which was more moisturizing.
24:21 Guy Raz? Yeah.
24:21 Speaker 01 Um, but I didn't think that it it cleansed you as well. So the old fashioned way of making soap, and this is the way that I typically made them, was with lye. Which is dangerous. Um, and it can burn you.
24:34 Guy Raz? Like borax, right?
24:35 Speaker 01 Yes, yes. And and you had to handle it very carefully. And then soap goes through a curing process. So it could take, you know, three months for your your soap to cure. Or you can put it in the oven to cure that soap.
24:48 Guy Raz? Wow.
24:49 Speaker 01 And then I came up with this idea because I was I was really getting into like the creative component of making. Soap. So I was thinking like, okay, well, what are all the different flavors that I can make? Like, I was making a strawberry bar and I put like dried strawberry in it. And I was like, oh, I don't think that's really clean or sanitary. Because also, I'm not a chemist and I don't really know what I'm doing. And so when I'm coming up with these outlandish ideas, I don't have anyone to say like, hey, that's actually not good for pH balance. Or this is going to like cause bacteria and mold to build. So I'm trying all these different soap recipes and I'm trying to make it look all cool. And, you know, have a gradient with the soap bar, like creating ombre soap bars.
25:31 Speaker 01 Like, I spent so much time making soap and honestly, so much money.
25:36 Guy Raz? By the way, I, I have to confess it. Sometimes when I'm at Whole Foods and I'm by that soap area, you know, where they've got like those beautiful translucent bars of soap, like with things like flowers or whatever suspended in the soap. I kind of wanna, it looks delicious. Like, part of me wants to just take a big bite out of it sometimes.
25:55 Speaker 01 They're beautiful. And oftentimes, they are all natural. And I mean, it's not gonna taste good, but it won't kill you.
26:01 Guy Raz? Right. I mean, because like, we did Lush on the show. We, we did the whole episode on Lush. And, uh, and that stuff looks, is beautiful too. Like, you know, the sliced, you know, loaf of soap that you can get.
26:12 Speaker 01 So here's the thing, I was obsessed with, with Lush. And Lush is really, like, I actually don't think I've had this full circle moment. But in, in my soap making, I was like, I want to be lush. And I think that's what made me say like, I want to start a soap business, actually. Because I was obsessed.
26:30 Guy Raz? And clearly, you start thinking, it, I mean, it sounds like the gears in your head were turning. And you're like, wait a minute, there's Lush, there's all these, like, maybe this is the business. Maybe, maybe I should do this as a business. Like, you start to think about this.
26:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm like, maybe I should start a soap business. Like, this is it. I, this is, this is my way out. I'm gonna create a company, it's gonna be called The Soap Bar.
26:50 Guy Raz? I love it. Very creative. Soap Bar.
26:53 Speaker 01 Right.
26:53 Guy Raz? I'm surprised that that name didn't exist, that it wasn't taken.
26:56 Speaker 01 Nope, it didn't exist. And the concept was that all of the soaps would be named after drinks.
27:03 Guy Raz? Right.
27:03 Speaker 01 So I have a margarita bar. That was like lemon and lime, basically, with sea salt on top. So I had all these really fun ideas and all these grand plans. And and ultimately, one day I was calling a supplier and I was looking for, you know, more pigments for my soaps because I was trying to get really funky and fancy with my colors.
27:23 Guy Raz? Yeah, well, ombre colors are, yeah, I mean, that's very challenging.
27:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, it takes a little work. It takes, takes some time.
27:29 Guy Raz? Ombre design, yeah.
27:32 Speaker 01 And he's like, wait, slow down, slow down. Do you want lip gloss pigments or do you want soap pigments?
27:38 Guy Raz? Huh.
27:39 Speaker 01 And I was like, uh, lipstick. I knew nothing about lipstick, but I couldn't believe that I could buy lipstick pigments. And that was it for me.
27:47 Guy Raz? Wait, you just call the supplier to ask for more pigments and they're like lipstick or soap? And you're like, wait, lipstick?
27:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, and it was a split second. It it was so crazy because I paused.
28:00 Guy Raz? Yeah.
28:01 Speaker 01 Knowing good and well, I was like, looking for soap pigments. It was almost something that I felt like, like I shouldn't have been doing, like I shouldn't have access to it. So when he said lipstick, I'm like, I can make lipstick. Oh, I'm done with this soap business.
28:16 Guy Raz? When we come back in just a moment, how Melissa spends down all of her savings to launch a lipstick business? And why, after she's flat broke, she goes one step further and quits her day job? Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.
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31:01 Speaker 05 Must be present in certain states. Visit PrizePicks.com for restrictions and details.
31:12 Guy Raz? Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's right around 2010, and Melissa had just had one of those life-changing phone calls with a supplier who asked, just kind of randomly, if she was looking to buy products to make soap or lipstick. And in that moment, she decided lipstick. For one thing, lipstick was actually one of the few kinds of makeup she wore.
31:39 Speaker 01 At the time, I think that I was into reds, oranges, and purples.
31:46 Guy Raz? Oh, yeah.
31:47 Speaker 01 And part of it, like, part of the reason why when we launched the lip bar, we had such crazy colors is because I remember it being so difficult to find purple lipstick.
31:59 Speaker 01 Like I want it purple so bad, but it's like only a couple of brands sold purple at the time and it was hard to find and it wasn't in stock. And I'm like, why is it so difficult for me to like have this bit of self-expression?
32:12 Guy Raz? And then I'm trying to think about like, well, what's the next step? Like then you're going to get a, a box of just powder, pigment powder for lipstick, but how do you make lipstick? What do I go to learn about how to make a lipstick? Did you, did you like go online and type in lipstick recipes?
32:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, pretty much. Um, I probably Google how to make lipstick and there wasn't that much out there at the time, but instead I found a lot of lip balm and lip balm is the cousin to lipstick. And I'm like, okay, well, maybe I should start here. Maybe I should start making lip balm and maybe I should start making lip gloss. And so I started looking for other suppliers to see if they had other things or recipes or other formula bases that I could use to start making my own product. And I just started experimenting and I probably made, I don't know, a thousand batches of lipstick and none of them worked before I found one that was like it.
33:10 Guy Raz? First of all, what do you melt together to just get the, you know, the, the base for lipstick?
33:16 Speaker 01 Well, this is the way I've, I've explained it. Like all lipstick is basically the same. It has its same like core ingredients. All of it has a wax, all of it has oil and all of it has a pigment. Now depending on the waxes, depending on the oils and the other additions, that's going to impact the amount of color. That's going to impact the texture, if it's soft, if it's creamy, if it's moisturizing, if it's long lasting. Now all of those other things are optional.
33:44 Guy Raz? Right. And then depending on the proportions, like that's going to affect the texture, like when you apply it to your lips, how that is sort of spread onto the surface of your skin, right? Like a thinner coat or a thicker coat, things like that?
33:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, so if you have too much oil, it's gonna be soft and it's gonna feel luxurious on your lips. But that lipstick probably is gonna break.
34:07 Guy Raz? Huh.
34:08 Speaker 01 If you have too much wax, then it's not gonna spread on her lips in a nice silky and creamy way. Um, if you don't have enough pigment, then you can have this beautiful color, like the actual lipstick could be a bright pink.
34:22 Guy Raz? Yeah.
34:23 Speaker 01 But when you actually put it on your lip, no color shows up. So it has to be a really delicate balance of pigment, oil, and wax.
34:31 Guy Raz? It's like a really luxurious and expensive crayon.
34:35 Speaker 01 That's exactly what it is.
34:37 Guy Raz? And when you had all the ingredients and you started to like melt stuff together, what did you pour it in? Are there like, I mean, can you just go online and get like lipstick molds?
34:46 Speaker 01 Uh, yes and no. So most companies, like the huge companies, the L'Oréals of the world, they pretty much had a monopoly on the molds market. So there was, from my understanding, and this is in 2012, there were only a couple of suppliers in the US who made molds.
35:03 Guy Raz? Hmm.
35:03 Speaker 01 And the biggest one was Kavala. And I was able to buy maybe four used molds and trust me, they were not cheap. I think I've spent like a whole paycheck on them.
35:16 Guy Raz? Like thousands of dollars?
35:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, the molds were maybe fifteen hundred dollars apiece.
35:22 Guy Raz? What are they made out of? Like metal?
35:24 Speaker 01 Steel. So they were also very heavy.
35:27 Guy Raz? I bet.
35:27 Speaker 01 So yeah, I probably bought maybe six or eight thousand dollars in molds. And how I bought them and how I had access to them is I found a lab that was going out of business. And I think they were in Louisiana. And this guy was selling them and I found them on Craigslist, I think.
35:45 Guy Raz? Hmm. I'm trying to imagine you in your apartment, um, like after working on the weekends, melting down all this stuff and experimenting with different colors and pouring it carefully into the molds and probably getting like lipstick material all over your kitchen. Just stressing out.
36:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, it ruins grout. Like, there have been so many times where I would drop the pigment and you can't, it's impossible to to clean it up because it's literal dye. It's literal dye that is in the makeup and in the lipstick. So, you know, I ruined stoves. I've lost security deposits. When people came to my house, like, it was literally a lab. Like, I definitely didn't have an apartment.
36:25 Guy Raz? Yeah.
36:25 Speaker 01 I had a lab. And so, you know, the whole table would be spread out with all of my different ingredients that I kept in these airtight jars. And after I made, like, let's say I melted down this perfect lipstick and I poured it into the mold. I really wanted it to, the lipstick to cure. So I would put it in the freezer. So people would come over my house and want ice and I have no ice because my freezer is filled with lipstick molds. I'm like, oh, if you want ice, you're barking up the wrong tree. I don't have ice. I have lipstick.
36:56 Guy Raz? And you were presumably working like sixty hour weeks at Barclays?
37:01 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I was so committed. I started looking for suppliers in China for packaging.
37:07 Guy Raz? Right.
37:07 Speaker 01 I started, like, I would come home. I would maybe get home at, you know, seven, eight PM. And then I would stay up until three thirty.
37:15 Guy Raz? Wow.
37:16 Speaker 01 You know, working on the recipe. I have no idea how I functioned. And then I would get back up at seven and go to work.
37:23 Guy Raz? And did you tell anybody about it? Were you, like, talking to friends? Like, I'm making lipstick. I'm just really excited about this thing.
37:30 Speaker 01 Oh, absolutely. They were all my first customers. Like, every single time I made a product, like, I never wanted to drink my own Kool-Aid. So I would invite people over to try on the product. Like, what do you think about this? What do you think about this?
37:42 Guy Raz? Who were you inviting over? Friends that you you met in New York or people that you'd known from college or?
37:47 Speaker 01 Both. People I had known from college who were also in New York, people I met at work, anyone who would try it, honestly. I remember taking lipstick to work, actually, like, hey, I made this. Can you try it out? And people were like, no, is it gonna break me out? You made it. No, I don't. Does it? How do you know it works? And I'm like, I don't. That's why I want you to try it out.
38:09 Guy Raz? We don't test on animals, just on Barclays employees.
38:11 Speaker 01 Just on humans, yeah.
38:13 Guy Raz? We test on finance people. So, and you're kind of experimenting and teaching yourself again and again. And at what point did you land on a recipe that you thought, yep, because you said there's oil, there's wax, and there's color, right? And so those are the basic ingredients, but you want to get a certain type of wax and a certain type of oil and a certain type of color, right, that speaks to you. So when did you know that you found that right formula?
38:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, my parameters for me were, they were just crystal clear. I was like, it needs to be vegan. I don't want any animal products or any animal byproducts. And I want it to be as natural as possible without compromising the color. So I knew that I wanted to create wild and crazy colors, things that you really didn't see on the market at that time. And I want it to feel good. So what's something that feels really good and creamy? And I was like, shea butter. I'm gonna put shea butter on the lipstick. And that was, that was it. Like, I just started then looking for ways to source shea butter or coconut oil. And I think I tried a ton of different natural ingredients to add to, you know, that baseline formulation.
39:24 Speaker 01 But really, you know, I found out that it was working when people started saying like, hey, can I get a little bit more of that? And that was it.
39:32 Guy Raz? And did any of your colleagues or were colleagues or friends, were they assuming that this is something that you might like sell at a farmer's market on a weekend? Or like, was that what they assumed? Were they even asking you what you were gonna do with this?
39:45 Speaker 01 I think I made it very clear that it was gonna be a website. And I don't think anyone took me serious until I got a shipment of our packaging. And here I am with 30 boxes, 30 boxes. Like, they're on the couch, they're on the floor, they're everywhere. And here I am, just kind of waiting, like, you remember that company I said I was gonna start? Yeah, it's in my living room. And one side is all boxes and one side is all of my lab materials. And I think that's when they took me seriously.
40:15 Guy Raz? So you were presumably making the sticks in your kitchen? And then you were putting them into the container?
40:21 Speaker 01 Into the lipstick tubes.
40:23 Guy Raz? The tubes, okay.
40:24 Speaker 01 Yep, into the lipstick tubes.
40:24 Guy Raz? And you found a factory in China to make that packaging?
40:28 Speaker 01 I did, and the the inspiration behind the packaging, because our packaging really stands out. It's really cool. It's intricately designed. And the inspiration was a birdcage. Like, I love like, the old school Victorian birdcages that are just like, super intricate. I don't like the idea of birds in cages.
40:46 Guy Raz? No.
40:46 Speaker 01 But I love the beautiful craftsmanship. And so I was like, I want it to kind of look like that. I want, I want something that doesn't look like a traditional tube, because I'm building a non-traditional company. And I had been asking a lot of friends, like, you know, what do you think about makeup? And and oftentimes, especially for black women, what I found was, they felt like beauty wasn't for them.
41:10 Guy Raz? That it was made for, not for their skin, or their complexion.
41:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. That it wasn't for their complexion, that they they never saw themselves within the industry, that marketing didn't cater to them, unless they were, you know, putting something in a brown bottle. And then they're like, hey, this is for black people.
41:27 Guy Raz? Right.
41:27 Speaker 01 So here I am, friends with a lot of people who are now, for the first time in their lives, they have disposable income, you know, because we were all fresh out of college, basically, and and making a pretty solid salary. And I was just like, there's a huge gap in terms of like, what my generation wants, and what's readily available on the market.
41:52 Guy Raz? I mean, you look at your website today, and clearly, your products and your brand, they're designed for, for every kind of person, every skin tone, every racial and ethnic background and group. When you were initially coming up with the idea, were you saying, you know, to to your friends, who you were kind of asking for feedback, were you were you sort of saying, look, no one is is serving us? You know, we are consumers, and we spend a lot of money on fashion and beauty, and we don't feel like products are being made for us. And so I want to make products for us. Was that, was that how you thought about it initially?
42:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think the goal was to create a brand where black women could be the default. So we create products, like you said, for every single skin tone. Like, it literally doesn't matter what complexion you are. We have something for you. But when we first launched in 2012, I was just like, I don't want black and brown women to feel like they have to fit in to the lip bar. I want them to know that they are the lip bar and they're not the default anywhere else. And my brand is going to be where that starts.
43:10 Guy Raz? Okay, so you come up with a really cool packaging design that that looks kind of like a birdcage. And you've got this factory in China that can make the boxes. Do you remember how many packages, like lipstick dispensers, you had to order?
43:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think the minimum order quantity was 12,000 units.
43:30 Guy Raz? Wow, 12,000 units, like stacked up in boxes in your kitchen?
43:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:34 Guy Raz? And you had to pack each one by hand? You had to take the actual lipstick and pack it in?
43:39 Speaker 01 Every single one. So I hand poured it into the mold and my mold held, I want to say, one held 48 units and one held 72 units.
43:49 Guy Raz? So it's gonna take a while to do. This can take a couple of weeks.
43:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, this is, this is serious. But I think I launched with 12 shades. And the goal was to have 500 of each made. So the good thing about being your own manufacturer is you control it. So I didn't have to use all 12,000. That certainly wasn't the goal. I was like, okay, I'm gonna invest in this 12,000. Maybe the goal would be to sell all of this in a year.
44:18 Guy Raz? Yeah. Now, the soap idea was gonna be called the soap bar. And so this was gonna be called the lip bar. Was that name as a business available?
44:29 Speaker 01 The business name was available, the lip bar. I really wanted it to just be lip bar, but lip bar wasn't available.
44:37 Guy Raz? Right.
44:37 Speaker 01 I didn't think too much about the name, if I'm gonna be honest. I just took the whole concept of the soap bar. And I was like, this is a really cool concept that I like. Now I'm gonna apply it to this different product and boom, I have a business.
44:49 Guy Raz? Yeah. And but the soap bar, you were gonna name each soap like the Margarita or the Lime Ricky or the Gin and Tonic. Were you gonna do that with the lipsticks too?
44:59 Speaker 01 I did. And so we have Cosmo, you know, that was one of our colors and Gin and Tonic is still one of our colors, actually. But we had things like Fuzzy Naval and all these like crazy names. Sour Apple Martini, it was literally a green lipstick. Fuzzy Naval, I think, was like a light orange, like coral lipstick. And because it had that bar tie-in, my concept was that whenever you bought a lipstick, you actually also got a recipe card for that drink.
45:32 Guy Raz? By the way, do you remember, I mean, you must have, I'm assuming you got 12,000 of these tubes, right, the packaging for the lipstick. You had to spend a lot of your money on this. Was any part of you nervous about doing that?
45:49 Speaker 01 I said, not even just like a lot of money. I think I spent all of my money, Guy. I spent my entire savings, because the thing that I didn't take into consideration was you buy it, but then you also have to get it here. So I learned a whole new skill set about like ocean freight and like duties and tariffs and taxes and all that jazz. So I think buying the the units and then actually getting them to my Brooklyn apartment may have cost me $13,000.
46:21 Guy Raz? I mean, that's a lot of cash.
46:24 Speaker 01 And then on top of that, I have to buy all the ingredients. I'm planning a launch party. I have to have pictures taken. So the startup cost for the business was probably around $30,000.
46:36 Guy Raz? Wow. And so as you were getting ready to launch, this is still pretty much you doing everything. I mean, were you turning to to friends for help at all?
46:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, um, my friends ended up being my, my founding team. Because I didn't know anything. I didn't know any better. So Roscoe, who's our creative director, she moved to New York, like she moved to New York three weeks before we launched. And, you know, some of my other friends in finance, I'm like, can you do our sales? Can you do our branding? Can you do, like, I had a team of six people. None of us were making any money.
47:11 Guy Raz? And Roscoe was, Roscoe was somebody you knew from, from high school? She was a friend from high school?
47:16 Speaker 01 Yep, Roscoe had been one of my really good friends from high school. We both went, went to cast together.
47:22 Guy Raz? And you basically said, hey, Roscoe, I think her last name is Spears, right?
47:25 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm. So she wanted to start a career in fashion. So New York was attractive to her anyway. And all of my friends, they just kind of were like, what's, what's the lip bar? I told them and then they were like, okay, cool. And so now here we are, where we have a business.
47:41 Speaker 01 And so I remember at our launch party, the very first person who showed up, we weren't even finished setting up yet. She came like 30 minutes early. Um, it was a beauty editor from Teen Vogue. And I think we were all stunned, like, wait, people care. People are listening. And so it was a really fun event and we got a lot of people to come, which was really interesting because we didn't really have a big budget and we didn't really know anyone in New York City. And, and we had gotten the attention of, of some beauty editors. So that was super cool. And we were so proud.
48:18 Guy Raz? At a certain point, you, you were going to have to make the decision of whether to quit your job. Now, I should make the caveat here that you were, one of the biggest advantages I think you had was that you were young.
48:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:32 Guy Raz? That if it didn't work out, you know, you could maybe go back to, to finance or something like that. But, but it sounds like you kind of just got to a point where you're like, yep, I'm ready. I'm going to quit my job and do this. And I, I think it happened like in 2013. Were you nervous at all about quitting this job in finance?
48:55 Speaker 01 No, I wasn't nervous. I think you're absolutely right. I think one of the magical things about being a first time founder, especially in an industry that you don't know anything about, you're completely naive. And you think that everything is gonna work. Like, I didn't have a plan, but I knew that it was gonna work somehow. And our first year in business, we launched in 2012. I think we made $26,000, right?
49:23 Guy Raz? And that was mostly from friends and family who would...
49:25 Speaker 01 Yes, absolutely.
49:27 Guy Raz? And you and your small group of friends were packing all the stuff. You were like making the lipstick and packaging them yourselves.
49:35 Speaker 01 No, that was actually all me.
49:36 Guy Raz? It was all you, okay.
49:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, I was still making and packing all of the products. And my friends were like, you know, maybe doing social media or helping with PR. Or, you know, Roscoe was planning the photo shoots. Roscoe's Lane has always been like, she's the visual person.
49:55 Guy Raz? Yeah.
49:55 Speaker 01 But that $26,000, even though it's not a ton of money, I was so proud to make that $26,000. I couldn't believe it. I was like, wait, what? I think my job at Barclays, you know, I think I had been making like $70,000 or something at that time. And so like to make, you know, essentially a quarter of my salary, I was like, this is a thing.
50:21 Guy Raz? Yeah. All right, so you quit Barclays.
50:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:25 Guy Raz? And does anybody in your... I mean, your mom, like, you know, she had to work really hard to, you know, to make a living to support you. And then you go off to college. And I'm sure so many people are so proud of you. And you had relatives in Detroit who were like, oh, my gosh. If I'm your mom, I'm like, my daughter's at Barclays. She's working on Wall Street. You know, I'm so proud. And then you call me and you say, Mom, I'm quitting. I'm starting a lipstick company. What did people in your family say?
51:00 Speaker 01 Oh, they thought I was crazy. My mom, she was like, what? And then I remember her literally explicitly saying, who's gonna pay your bills?
51:12 Speaker 01 And I was like, well, I'm gonna pay my bills. I think I saved up. I tried to save up what I thought would be a year's worth of my expenses. I ran out in like six months, but my, my family thought I was crazy when I quit. And my feeling was just like, look, I am more comfortable with the idea of failure than I am with regret. And that's what made me say, I can do it.
51:38 Guy Raz? And now you are the CEO of the Lip Bar. You have, I'm assuming you have no money, right? There's no, how are you financing?
51:49 Speaker 01 We're dead broke.
51:50 Guy Raz? Yeah. How are you financing this business?
51:52 Speaker 01 Oh my goodness. We're, we're literally dead broke. Me and Roscoe ended up like Airbnb-ing her bedroom and she moved into my room so that we could like cover our expenses. You know, if the first year we made 26,000, then I think the next year we may have made like 56,000, which is great. We're double.
52:12 Guy Raz? That's growth. Yep.
52:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, we're, we're growing, but, but ultimately we're not really making money. We're not really profitable.
52:19 Guy Raz? And Roscoe was doing freelance work on the side.
52:22 Speaker 01 Yep. She's doing freelance work sometimes and I'm, I'm full time and, and I, I say full time with like air quotes because it's not like I had any benefits or a salary, but I'm, I'm giving this my full attention rather. So I was still making the products in my kitchen. So I was, I was focusing on, on innovation. I'm making new colors and I'm thinking of new marketing ideas because you know, Roscoe was handling the, the creative in terms of our photo shoots, but basically I'm handling every single thing else because like my first team of friends, that first team had all fizzled out probably within the first, I don't know, nine months.
53:01 Guy Raz? Right.
53:01 Speaker 01 Um, so yeah, I'm on social media. I'm documenting the process of me making lipstick. Um, and people are really intrigued by that. People can't believe that I'm actually making lipstick in my kitchen.
53:14 Guy Raz? So you are grinding away. Roscoe's grinding away. You're trying to get this off the ground. You're doing this in New York. And I guess around 2013, maybe 2014, you decide to move it to Detroit, like to go back to where you grew up. Why? I mean, New York, right, is the global center of fashion, one of the global centers of fashion.
53:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:41 Guy Raz? Certainly the center of like the fashion industry in the US. The big makeup brands, I think, are headquartered there. So why did you decide to to leave New York?
53:52 Speaker 01 Well, number one, I was running out of money.
53:54 Guy Raz? Right.
53:55 Speaker 01 You know, we had, we weren't making much money. I had been thinking about it, like, should I stay in New York? We had already made a lot of connections with beauty editors. We had been getting press. So I felt like we made a mark and and we could still grow without being there. And then on top of that, I saw the narrative of Detroit changing.
54:17 Guy Raz? Around 2013?
54:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. So, you know, in 2012, when I first started the company, it was all about Detroit and Detroit's ruins.
54:27 Guy Raz? Yeah.
54:27 Speaker 01 And in 2014, the narrative was changing. Shinola had just come to Detroit and and people were investing in Detroit and downtown was becoming cool again. And I was like, wait.
54:40 Guy Raz? Bakeries and vegan restaurants and.
54:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, I was like, maybe, maybe it's time for me to go home to to build this business. And number one, I can be a part of this Renaissance. I can make sure that people who look like me are a part of this Renaissance because, you know, I had been experiencing firsthand what gentrification looks like because I was living in Brooklyn.
55:02 Guy Raz? Yeah.
55:03 Speaker 01 And so I'm like, I knew that New York didn't need me and that I could do a lot more in my hometown. You know, I never thought that Detroit really deserved the bad reputation that it had gotten. And I wanted to be a part of like this new thing and and to meet the movers and shakers that that were were making it happen. So I was excited for the city. I just wanted to make sure that black people were a part of of the resurgence.
55:31 Guy Raz? When we come back in just a moment, how Melissa and Roscoe spread the word about the Lip Bar, first on a nationwide tour in a retrofitted airport shuttle bus, and then with an appearance on Shark Tank, which does not go particularly well. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This from NPR.
55:59 Guy Raz? And one more thing. The New York Times bestselling book, How I Built This, is now available. It's a great read and a great gift for anyone looking for ideas, inspiration, wisdom, and encouragement to have the courage to put out an idea into the world. It's filled with tons of stories you haven't heard about how some of the greatest entrepreneurs you know and respect started out at the very bottom. Check out How I Built This, the book, available wherever you buy your books.
56:37 Guy Raz? Hey, welcome back to How I Built This from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around 2014, and Melissa Butler has left New York and moved the business to her hometown of Detroit. And she knows that if women could just try her lipstick, could just see the colors, they'd love it.
56:59 Speaker 01 So I knew that I wanted to be in retail, but I knew that we also weren't ready. So I decided that in order to get our products in front of customers, that we would, instead of trying to figure out what counter can we get behind, how do we bring the counter to our customers? And so we built the Lip Bar Truck, which was what we deemed the most glamorous beauty experience on wheels. And we went on a tour.
57:28 Guy Raz? You built like a truck that was decorated with your logo, full of, like an ice cream truck?
57:36 Speaker 01 So my ex-boyfriend built party buses, like from his bare hands.
57:41 Guy Raz? Wow.
57:42 Speaker 01 And I was, I had the idea, I was like, I want you to build me basically a beauty store on wheels where people could come in, sit down, try on their product. We have music and we really make it into an experience so that I can get my product in front of more people.
57:58 Guy Raz? Ah, okay.
57:59 Speaker 01 It's basically like a shuttle bus.
58:01 Guy Raz? Right.
58:01 Speaker 01 So, you know, he took out the old funky seats and, you know, built a countertop, like wrapped around the entire bus, built a cash register in the back, um, because the goal was always, we're gonna build this truck and then we're gonna go on this tour and we're gonna go across the country, spreading our message about, you know, these vegan and cruelty-free and inclusive lip colors.
58:25 Guy Raz? And you would just like park on a street in a city?
58:29 Speaker 01 So the plan, the initial plan was that I was just gonna go to different cities and park on the street.
58:34 Guy Raz? Right.
58:34 Speaker 01 But then when I, what I learned is that you're supposed to have a permit.
58:39 Speaker 01 And this was like the major plot twist because I didn't have time. I planned this so that I could go on tour once it was done and we had already been talking about it. I think on our social media and, but the, the responsible part of me said, okay, why don't we find stores that we can park in front of and partner with? Because if you park in front of the store and it's kind of like an event in conjunction with that space, because technically, you know, the brick and mortar store, they kind of own their sidewalk.
59:09 Guy Raz? Yeah.
59:09 Speaker 01 So if we parked in front of a store that we had a relationship with, then we could do it without the permit. So I started finding, um, partners and, and all these different cities that I wanted to go to. And my, our most impressive partnership is that we got Urban Outfitters to agree, a- and this is the Urban Outfitters in DC, to agree to partner with us. And they, they brought in like water and drinks and they allowed us to park in front and they kind of rolled a red carpet so that it was clearly like a part of Urban Outfitters.
59:41 Guy Raz? The one in, the one in Georgetown.
59:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:43 Guy Raz? Yeah.
59:43 Speaker 01 Yeah. So we were able to open up the side doors and we put a TV right there. So that if people are just walking by, they can kind of see our messages like flashing in display.
59:54 Guy Raz? Oh, yeah.
59:54 Speaker 01 So people would naturally stop because they're like, this truck looks cool. So many people thought that it was like drinks naturally.
1:00:03 Speaker 01 So they would come up, guys would come up and say, what do you got in there? You got beer? We're like, no, we have lipstick. Come on up, bring your wife. And we, and then like oftentimes the woman would come up because she was so intrigued. She's like, you have lipstick on there? And she would come up and the whole truck was mirrors.
1:00:21 Guy Raz? Wow.
1:00:21 Speaker 01 And, and she would come on and she would try on the product and you know, she would more often than not love the product and make a purchase.
1:00:28 Guy Raz? And, and how long did this tour last?
1:00:31 Speaker 01 Um, we went on two different tours. And I want to say the first one, which was the largest one, maybe six weeks.
1:00:41 Guy Raz? Wow. Were you able to finance the trip through sales?
1:00:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the, the first tour was wonderful and that inspired us to go on a second tour. And that's when we went on this like black college tour. So we went back to my alma mater and to drive from Detroit to Florida is crazy in a truck that's not so great. And so guy on the way back from this like black college tour that we did, and we actually made a lot of money and we were really excited about it. The truck started breaking down. And like, I remember we were maybe four hours away and we just kind of stopped the truck and we parked it and we were like, okay, maybe she just needs a rest. Okay, maybe if we just give her some time off.
1:01:27 Speaker 01 And I think we just let it sit for an hour and then she took us home and, and that was the last time we really drove it. But yeah, I, I'm so emotional about the truck, so I can't get rid of it.
1:01:39 Guy Raz? You know, it's so interesting because the playbook you used is very similar to what Whitney Wolfe did when she launched Bumble. She went to Southern Methodist University, and she basically hosted these parties where she got people to learn. She taught people how to use Bumble, and started with college students. And you went to black colleges, and I'm assuming you went to probably a lot of Delta chapters, right? Because you were in that sorority.
1:02:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, there are tons of influential women who are a member of Delta Sigma Theta. And when you join the sorority, it's all about sisterhood, and it's all about support, and it's all about building up your community. So by leaning on them and making sure that they were super aware of what I was doing, I was also baking in a business model, essentially. And I think that's part of the reason why the Lit Bar has been able to grow, because it's just been this strong community of people who look at me and say, wow, she's doing something for us.
1:02:44 Guy Raz? And meantime, you still need to get some visibility. And so you decide to do something that is really smart, but also really risky, which is to apply to be on Shark Tank.
1:02:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:02:58 Guy Raz? Which is a great idea, but lots of people apply to Shark Tank. So how did it happen that they picked you? Do you know?
1:03:05 Speaker 01 Well, I think Shark Tank picked us because we were fun and we were being ourselves. So we submitted a video where we were talking about the product, but also we were hula hooping. And I think we were talking about the product while hula hooping. So it was kind of gimmicky, but enough to make you pay attention to what we were saying.
1:03:27 Guy Raz? And they want people who are going to be good on television and fun.
1:03:29 Speaker 01 Yeah. And maybe a month after we submitted that video, they reached out and they were like, you know, we're the producers of Shark Tank, and we're interested in your business. Can we ask you a bunch of questions? So I think we went back and forth for maybe six weeks of them just collecting a ton of paperwork and asking us a ton of questions. And the next thing you know, we're in California filming.
1:03:55 Guy Raz? We had Jamie Simonoff, who founded a ring, on the show a couple of months ago. And he described his experience, that it was really terrifying, you know, because you don't meet them until you actually walk out and pitch your product.
1:04:07 Speaker 01 Hi, I'm Alyssa Butler. And I'm Roscoe Spears. And we live in Brooklyn, New York. And we were kind of nervous, and they were so cruel to us. Oh, my goodness.
1:04:17 Speaker 06 This is a new innovation. I can see a massive market share in the clown market.
1:04:21 Speaker 01 They told Roscoe that she looked dead.
1:04:25 Guy Raz? That she looked dead?
1:04:27 Speaker 01 Because of the color of her lipstick.
1:04:29 Speaker 06 So Roscoe, aren't you worried if you walked into a bar with that color lip, somebody would try to resuscitate you?
1:04:34 Speaker 01 Yep, she had on green, and I think I had on purple. It's difficult for women of all these different complexions and undertones to find colors that are perfect for them. Which you ended up seeing is probably seven or eight minutes, but we were recording for maybe an hour.
1:04:50 Guy Raz? Right.
1:04:51 Speaker 01 So I'm explaining to them that the industry is changing, and that the bigger companies are slow to change.
1:04:57 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:04:58 Speaker 01 And we're the smaller company, and we're fast to change, and that's our strength.
1:05:01 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:05:02 Speaker 01 And they were like, well, if the big companies wanted to do it, they just would, and they would crush you like the colorful cockroaches you are, is exactly what they said.
1:05:10 Speaker 06 And they would crush you like the colorful cockroaches you are. You only have so many minutes on earth. Don't waste them trying to sell lipstick. I'm out.
1:05:19 Guy Raz? Wow. You know, there's a shtick there, that kind of, that mean kind of shtick, and that's part of what they do.
1:05:28 Speaker 01 Totally.
1:05:29 Guy Raz? But I think Kevin O'Leary said, hey, the chances that this business will succeed are zero, practically zero.
1:05:35 Speaker 01 And what they didn't show on air is that, when he said, like, don't waste your time trying to sell lipstick, they then went into this whole internal debate on, like, what we actually should be doing.
1:05:47 Guy Raz? Wow.
1:05:48 Speaker 01 They're like, listen, you're beautiful girls. Your dresses are nice. Why don't you go into the fashion business?
1:05:52 Guy Raz? Ah.
1:05:53 Speaker 01 Which is so offensive.
1:05:54 Guy Raz? Oh, my god.
1:05:55 Speaker 01 And I had been so prepared to talk numbers, because, like, here I am, like a former finance girl, and like, I'm ready to talk business. And they didn't. I think the most disappointing thing for us wasn't that they called us colorful cockroaches. Like, I actually didn't even care about that statement at the time. I think that it was more offensive that they did not even consider us as businesswomen.
1:06:17 Guy Raz? Did you walk out of that, out of that recording, like, angry? Or just sad or?
1:06:23 Speaker 01 No, I wasn't angry. I was just sad. I was sad that that we had that I felt so strongly that we had something special and that they didn't see it. And what we're doing is representing that population that's not a part of, you know, the fine line that you have established and that the country has decided is beautiful. And and we're here for that person. We're here for for the woman with a low haircut and tattoos. We're here for the woman who's plus sized and who had at that time not been used in beauty campaigns. We're here for the the black women. We're here for the brown women. We're here for the Asian women. Like, there has to be increased representation. So I was like, I'm not stopping.
1:07:08 Guy Raz? All right. So you you come out of there, but it sounds like it sounds like even though you felt like they were not so kind,
1:07:19 Guy Raz? that it forced you to refine the story you were telling about Lip Bar, about the Lip Bar.
1:07:26 Speaker 01 It did, and it forced me to start thinking more so about how we market the company. Mark Cuban was really adamant around me being at the forefront of the brand. He was like, look, your story is really cool. You need to step into into your brand. You need to be your storyteller. At this time, I was not at the the forefront of the business. I didn't want Melissa Butler to be the Lip Bar. I wanted the Lip Bar to be the Lip Bar and for Melissa Butler to be Melissa Butler. And so over time, I did realize that that was hurting the company with me not being at the forefront. Because today, people are looking for brands that are going to be more transparent and and they want to know who's behind the business. Yeah.
1:08:12 Guy Raz? All right, so you come back to, you come back to Detroit and eventually this Shark Tank episode airs, because I think they end up airing like six or seven months after they're actually filmed.
1:08:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, and we had no idea. They don't really warn you.
1:08:24 Guy Raz? They don't tell you, right.
1:08:25 Speaker 01 We found out maybe 10 days in advance.
1:08:28 Guy Raz? And even though you got kind of pilloried by them, that must have helped your visibility.
1:08:33 Speaker 01 Oh, it's crazy. Oh, our website crashed that night. I want to say we had like 40,000 hits to the website within just a couple of minutes.
1:08:41 Guy Raz? Wow.
1:08:41 Speaker 01 We had all this stuff on like back order. We couldn't like maintain the orders. I was still shipping the orders, I think. And Shark Tank really like fast-tracked us into like hiring people.
1:08:54 Guy Raz? Yeah. By the way, you were still, this is just being financed entirely through cash flow.
1:08:59 Speaker 01 Completely.
1:09:00 Guy Raz? You had not raised any money or anything. You're hiring people and paying them probably a small salary and offering them some equity.
1:09:07 Speaker 01 Really just paying them a small salary.
1:09:08 Guy Raz? Right.
1:09:09 Speaker 01 So, and we're hiring entry-level people.
1:09:11 Guy Raz? Right.
1:09:11 Speaker 01 Basically like hourly workers to just help us ship the orders. And we had just started transitioning into getting the products manufactured. So that was my goal. Like, okay, well, Melissa, you need to get your product manufactured so that you can then launch into retail.
1:09:27 Guy Raz? Wow.
1:09:27 Speaker 01 So that was the goal for 2015. Let's find a manufacturing partner. And then it was time. I was like, I'm gonna find a retailer and Target, it was our, our goal.
1:09:37 Guy Raz? Target was your goal?
1:09:38 Speaker 01 Target was the only people we pitched.
1:09:39 Guy Raz? And now Target, everybody wants to be in Target, right? I mean, that's like the top place to get into. They get pitched a million times a day. Did you even have any connections? Like, had, who did you, who did you know to call?
1:09:51 Speaker 01 I had no connections and I, so I couldn't call anyone. But I'm gonna just start reaching out to the buyers. And so I went on LinkedIn and I started searching for Target buyers, like color cosmetics buyers. Like, I was searching everything.
1:10:07 Guy Raz? I love that.
1:10:08 Speaker 01 Beauty buyer, color cosmetics buyer, Target buyer. And I think I was like emailing like 12 different people. So this is probably an eight months, eight month process of me stalking people at Target.
1:10:20 Guy Raz? Wow. And so after eight months of stalking people, you eventually do connect with a Target buyer, I think a makeup buyer.
1:10:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:10:30 Guy Raz? And I'm curious, like, what did you say in your email to her? Because I mean, I'm sure that, that this buyer... Was getting lots of emails and you had to stand out. So what did you write?
1:10:42 Speaker 01 Oh, I mean, I threw the whole kitchen sink in. I told her a little bit about the story and about our truck and how cool we are and how, you know, I think we had maybe 40,000 followers on social media or something. I told her that everything was vegan and quality free. I talked about how cool our packaging was, but I think that the real thing that stood out was that I talked more than anything about what we could do for Target instead of what Target could do for us. I'm like, my customer's shopping there and she's not shopping there for makeup. And it's because you don't have me, basically.
1:11:17 Guy Raz? Wow.
1:11:18 Speaker 01 And so on my second follow up, she came back and was like, oh, wait, your packaging actually is really cool. Can you send me some samples? And I probably screamed.
1:11:26 Guy Raz? And you screamed?
1:11:28 Speaker 01 I screamed and I probably took a lap around my house because that's what I do and I'm really excited. And then we had a call and she was like, look, I think that your brand is really cool, but also I know that your brand is really small and like maybe too small for Target. I don't know. And she was like, but I'm willing to take a chance and allow you to drop shit on target.com. Like, do you want to launch on target.com? I'm like, absolutely.
1:11:54 Guy Raz? Wow.
1:11:54 Speaker 01 And so what we did was we launched a brand new color and we blasted it to our audience, but you couldn't get it on our website. You could only get it on target.com.
1:12:03 Guy Raz? But how did you, I mean, there's thousands, tens of thousands of products on target.com. How did you gain visibility on the website initially?
1:12:12 Speaker 01 So the thing about launching in a retailer is it's not their job to sell your product. It's your job to sell your product.
1:12:18 Guy Raz? Right.
1:12:19 Speaker 01 So we literally pushed all of our, like our emails, our social media followers, all our friends and family. It was like a brand new launch, like, oh my God, we're in Target. We were so excited. We shared it with our community in a way where it was a win for all of us. Like, can you believe that the lip bar is now on target.com? And they bought that color and it sold out, actually. And she was like, okay, I want to introduce you to the store buyer, essentially. And we pitched and we were launching in Target nine months later.
1:12:50 Guy Raz? Wow.
1:12:53 Guy Raz? You know, I think a lot of people will walk into a Target and think, oh, all the products here, the people who make them are probably multimillionaires. But it's actually not that simple because there's lots of products at Target and you've got to sell them. But I have to imagine that being on the shelves at Target meant that you started to generate some revenue that started to make your business sustainable.
1:13:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, so we launched and we went into 44 stores. That was the test that was offered. We didn't have a marketing budget, but we had a publicist. We hired a publicist to really promote and push out this idea that, you know, this small business that's vegan, I think we were one of the only vegan brands in Target. And the reality is the makeup aisle didn't really have any small businesses. So the fact that we have shelf space in Target as this really small brand was like an anomaly.
1:13:50 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:13:51 Speaker 01 So we had this huge PR campaign and I don't know, we must have gotten like 10 billion impressions in like a week.
1:13:59 Guy Raz? Wow. Well, you got, so this PR person got you guys coverage in like beauty magazines and...
1:14:05 Speaker 01 She got us placed in maybe two, two websites. I think Allure was one and I don't remember the other.
1:14:12 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:14:12 Speaker 01 But everyone shared it. Everyone shared that and then, you know, a lot of people started talking about it. Refinery29 talked about it. Teen Vogue talked about it. And we, we had like the number one selling lipstick for the first month of our launch with no marketing budget. And Target was like, whoa, we weren't expecting this of this brand. And so we grew very quickly. So we went from 40 stores to I think 144 stores and then we went into like 400 stores and now we're in about 500 stores about to expand again.
1:14:49 Guy Raz? You, I think in 2018, for the first time, you brought in some outside funding. You got an outside investment. Did you ever, I mean, think about pitching to VCs and to venture, you know, to investors? Or did that investment kind of, do they kind of come to you and say, hey, we want to, we want to invest?
1:15:08 Speaker 01 Well, it's a mixture of both. So now we're in Target stores, right? And we're growing in Target and, you know, we needed money. We needed money for-
1:15:16 Guy Raz? To finance the business.
1:15:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, because this is inventory and the beauty industry is not necessarily replenishable. So the average woman, it may take her eight months to even use her favorite lipstick. And I remember having calls with investors and pitching people and they would all say like, Melissa, you're so impressive, like you're such an impressive founder, but we're not gonna, we're not gonna invest. The reality is, Guy, black women are starting businesses faster than any other group of people in this country, but we're not getting funding. And also because we're not getting funding, we can't really grow our ideas. So if we really want to like reduce the wealth gap in this country,
1:15:58 Speaker 01 we're gonna have to start giving opportunities to women who look like me.
1:16:03 Guy Raz? Tristan Walker was on the show last year, founder of Walker and Company. Bevel is his best known product. And he pointed on the show that if you look at the beauty industry and consumers, by far, far and away, on a proportional basis, black consumers spend more money on beauty products than any other group in the United States.
1:16:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's been reported that we spend nine times-
1:16:32 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:16:33 Speaker 01 -anyone else on beauty. But meanwhile, you know, black businesses, black beauty businesses, aren't well funded. So for a smaller company, it's like we have to fight tooth and nail to get a little funding.
1:16:47 Guy Raz? Yeah, yeah. And I should say, you were able to finally get some money. From a fund that was started by the beauty entrepreneur, Richard Lou Dennis, which is a fund I think he started for black women founders in 2018. And then in 2019, you decided to actually open a brick and mortar store in Detroit, which is, I think, really close to the Shinola store, right?
1:17:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, we're right behind the Shinola store. We're basically in their alley. And I had never even wanted a store, just because like, no, I don't want to maintain a store, think about a store. We were already in Target. But the thing about Detroit is, even with its resurgence, there's still very little within the city limits. Like, we actually don't have a Target, for instance, in the entire city of Detroit, like, not within the city limits. We also don't have a national, like, a chain movie theater in the city of Detroit. So, you know, I felt like this was my opportunity to really, like, again, be a part of that
1:17:53 Speaker 01 Renaissance and really give people the opportunity to shop high-quality makeup.
1:18:00 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:18:01 Speaker 01 And it really warmed my heart, Guy, because, you know, we opened in the dead of winter. We opened on our, on our birthday, essentially, and we opened to a line of maybe 200 people.
1:18:13 Guy Raz? Wow.
1:18:14 Speaker 01 In the, in the dead of winter, like, it's freezing.
1:18:16 Guy Raz? Because people were just so excited about that, about this, this opening.
1:18:20 Speaker 01 People were so excited. This is a city where there, frankly, isn't a lot of opportunity. And so typically, people have to leave to build something. And, you know, and I am a person who left, but then I came back. And I think that they're really proud about that. And, and they've, they've shown me so much love. Like, the lip bar has grown since we've come back, like, we 5X'd the business since I've moved back to Detroit.
1:18:49 Guy Raz? Of course, then, 2020 happens. COVID shut down. The retail business really gets hit. Parts of the beauty industry do OK, but there is a slowdown. Did, did you guys see a pretty significant slowdown, you know, once COVID became a reality in, in March and April?
1:19:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, what's crazy is, like, February was such a good month for us.
1:19:16 Speaker 01 February was unprecedented, but you know, I think it was just preparing us for what was next. It was, it was so crazy because then in March, I think we, we officially closed the store on, on March 15th and, and that was our worst month in probably a year. You know, people always talk about the lipstick effect, which is this idea that even in an economic recession or even a depression, women will still rely on those small novelties that make them feel good. But you typically only put on makeup when you're leaving the house and no one was leaving. And we were really, we were really concerned if I'm going
1:19:59 Speaker 01 to be just completely honest. I was like, I don't know how we're gonna survive this business. Um, the goal and the approach was really to just do the things that we had always done, which is like, just continuously connect with our customers and meet them where they are. Um, our relationship with our customer is so strong because we actually are our customer. So, you know, I'm not married. I'm on online dates right now. And so I'm looking, you know, how do I update my profile? How do I look cute for my FaceTime date? How do I instill confidence to my team? And for me, that was like very easily lip color. I was like, by putting on this lip color, like I look a little bit more alive. I look
1:20:43 Speaker 01 more confident. I look like I'm ready for the day. And we pivoted our messaging and then very quickly our sales rebounded. So while March was a tough month, April was, we had grown back to like our norm. And then June with the whole Black Lives Matter and this, this more apparent need to support small businesses and particularly small black owned businesses, we had our best month ever. So throughout this pandemic, even though it is uncertain still, um, we've been able to grow the business 80% this year.
1:21:18 Guy Raz? Yeah, I mean, in May and June, there was, you know, a lot of growing awareness and and desire among many people who were watching the and taking part in the protests against racial injustice to support black businesses. And a lot of black entrepreneurs we've had on the show have talked about those months as being they were just overwhelmed with the with what happened to their businesses and the attention that they received during that time. Does that continue for you? Has it has it been sustained?
1:21:47 Speaker 01 Um, our sales have sustained, but that level of support, no. I think that, I mean, for me, I didn't expect it to.
1:21:58 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:21:59 Speaker 01 So I remember when it was happening, I call an all hands meeting with my team and I said, Look, we're getting flooded right now and it's our goal and it's our job to make sure that these aren't charity dollars. And that's the thing, like, we don't, as a black business owner, I don't want you to support my business. I want you to shop my products because you think that this is
1:22:20 Guy Raz? Because it's great. Yeah.
1:22:21 Speaker 01 Exactly. Because we make it easy for you to understand what products work for your complexion, not because you feel bad about something. Because if you shop with that intention in mind, then it doesn't actually allow us to build a a relationship with you. And like, our goal is to have lifetime value, you know, with our customer and have this this more than transactional relationship with our customer.
1:22:47 Guy Raz? Yeah. And I mean, you guys have have branched out into all kinds of makeup, like you do eyeshadow and and foundation and concealer and and even like the lipstick colors that you're doing now. I guess you're offering, I guess you'd say, like, more sort of mainstream colors as well?
1:23:03 Speaker 01 So, over time, we've, I mean, we've, of course, evolved. You know, when we first launched, we were really just trying to make a statement. And we had to introduce some practicality. So now we have, you know, we have everything. We have like over 16 nudes. Because again, we're really driving that whole like, beauty for every single complexion. And we have the best reds. Like, Michelle Obama just wore our red, which is our best seller in the whole Company. Yes, it's crazy. But we we stay true to who we are. We still have a black lipstick. We still have a blue lipstick. We have tons of purple. So it's it's a balance between like, how do we leave something for people to get creative? Or, you know, reimagine themselves, even if it's just for one night.
1:23:46 Guy Raz? Do you think you can become, because right now you're still growing and probably sort of on the cusp of, I'm assuming that on the cusp of sort of, you know, transforming from a a small business to a medium sized business. Is that is that fair to say?
1:24:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, totally. Well, actually, I don't know what a medium sized business means.
1:24:06 Guy Raz? It's it's roughly 25 million in in annuals.
1:24:09 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, totally. We'll we'll get there. No, no doubt about that.
1:24:12 Guy Raz? So so let's say you're sort of, I mean, you are obviously growing and growing fast and your brand awareness is growing really fast. Do you think, I mean, can you imagine, do you think you can grow to, you know, at scale to become a huge brand? Independently, or do you think eventually, like other cosmetics brands like Benefit or, you know, other brands that were eventually became huge, that you would have to be purchased or partnered, you know, with a bigger company, a L'Oréal or Revlon or LVMH or, you know, one of these huge multinationals? Do you think that, I mean, could you see a world where you would partner or you would, you know, become part of their portfolio?
1:24:54 Guy Raz? If it meant that you would become like, you know, ubiquitous everywhere around the world and airports and duty free shops and so on?
1:25:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, I think as an entrepreneur, when you build something, you want it to fly as high as it possibly can.
1:25:10 Guy Raz? Yeah.
1:25:11 Speaker 01 And what you see within the beauty space is like typically, small businesses end up selling because there's a constant need for money and to out compete these bigger brands. And the reality is like, I can't out market Maybelline in dollars.
1:25:29 Guy Raz? Right.
1:25:29 Speaker 01 You know, I can be more creative than them, but that creativity only goes so far because I can only reach so many people. And so. If we had the opportunity to really become like this world renowned brand, then I, I think that that would be the perfect way to like cement the legacy and all of the hard work that, that myself and my team has been doing over the last eight years because having all of these high and low moments, you know, they've come at the expensive of, of lots of things. There have been times where I've been, you know, a bad sister, or a bad friend, or a bad girlfriend, or a bad daughter, um, because
1:26:12 Speaker 01 I've been sacrificing for, for the business. So I think the ultimate way to, to say this was worth it is having this brand that, that really makes makeup more inclusive and makes makeup easier and, and really has this like landmark and this, this leaves its mark on the beauty industry.
1:26:31 Guy Raz? When, when you think of your journey, Melissa, how much of your success do you think has to do with the hard work that you put in and your intelligence? And how much do you think is because you just, you got lucky at times?
1:26:46 Speaker 01 Um, and, and of course, I know this question is coming, but it's a really tough question. Um, I think, I think earlier on, it was all hard work. And I think that hard work is still, you know, I'm still receiving the fruits of that labor. And nowadays, I'm thinking it's luck. So I don't think any, anyone can fully take credit. I think that sometimes the universe is just in alignment. And right now, I really feel good.
1:27:18 Guy Raz? That's Melissa Butler, founder and CEO of The Lip Bar. And by the way, after nearly a decade in the beauty business, Melissa says, when it comes to putting on her own makeup, she still struggles to get it right.
1:27:33 Speaker 01 Yes, I'm a beauty founder, but no, I don't know how to do makeup. And people who I would meet, they would say, you shouldn't say that. And I'm like, why? It's true. I don't know how to do my makeup. And like, and I've tried to do a YouTube video and I came out looking like a fool. Like I looked, I looked nothing like that tutorial.
1:27:52 Guy Raz? Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can also write to us at [email protected] . And if you want to follow us on Twitter, we're at HowIBuiltThis or at Guy Raz. My Instagram is at Guy dot Raz. This episode was produced by James Delahoussaye with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. Thanks also to Liz Metzger, Derek Gales, J.C. Howard, Julia Carney, Neva Grant, and Jeff Rogers. Our intern is Faris Afari. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This. This is NPR.
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