Brianna Wiest

Brianna Wiest is a bestselling author, speaker, and advocate for self-reflection and personal growth. Known for transformative works including 101 Essays That Will Change The Way You Think, The Mountain Is You, and her latest release, The Pivot Year, she has sold over 2 million copies of her books which frequently top global bestseller lists. Now based in Northern California, Wiest continues to inspire as a speaker at businesses, conferences, and bookstores worldwide, and as a partner at Thought Catalog, where she publishes her books and shares deeply personal, thoughtful content. Her work resonates with readers worldwide, offering insight into emotional intelligence, mental health, and discovering inner potential. Her upcoming release, The Life That’s Waiting, is available for pre-order now. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Squarespace https://squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Vivo Barefoot http://vivobarefoot.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA25' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://drinklmnt.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Athletic Nicotine https://www.athleticnicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Rick Rubin?

  Tetragrammaton.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  I remember when I was really young, I had two kind of feelings that were strong. And one was that I wanted to do something like in the arts, like I wanted to do music or act or something. And I also had this very, maybe not strange, but I think to me at the time it was strange, feeling that I needed to help people. My mom tells a story a lot that I was like in elementary school and I would tell her over and over again, "Mom, I'm supposed to help people." She'd be like, "What is this kid talking about?" She'd be like, "All right, relax," you know? She said I would be down in the den on my old Microsoft desktop computers and looking up like college courses. And I was trying to figure out how you help people and I couldn't quite place it.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  And so there was a time, I think like by middle school, I used to say I either wanted to be a singer or an emergency room doctor. That's where I landed with it, okay? So, you know, not maybe talented enough for the first one and maybe not academically gifted enough for the second. All along, I loved reading. This is independent of those two feelings. Loved, loved, loved reading. And I remember in high school, do you remember this book? It was called, I think, The Purpose-Driven Life. I think it's like a daily devotional. I think it's like religious, but...

• 1:41Rick Rubin?

  It was a very popular book.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I had a teacher who would read a piece of it each morning before this one class. And I remember having this really physical embodied experience of I was just sitting there in school and I would feel different once you read from these pages. I didn't know that writing your books could function like that. I didn't know they could make you feel that way, even if it was just a little message of, you know... Find your strength. It was just something simple like that. It found me and it shifted. And it was this complete change of feeling in my body. I was really, really moved by it. And I find that people have that experience with a lot of different things. Music, obviously.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  You know, they have that real moved experience. But for me, it was writing and words and books. So I graduate, I'm going to college. And by this point, I decided I'm just going to study writing and English. And I'm going to do, you know, kind of journalism, news writing. Right? That's the intention. I didn't know that there was anything else to do with it. And at the time when I decided I was going to pursue that, this is important. I really had kind of surrendered all of those feelings and childhood dreams. Right? I didn't think I was going to help anyone through writing at that point. And I was OK with that. You know, that's where my strength was, that's where my love was.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  And I was just going to pursue it. And that was one of the first great lessons of my life, which is the road you take to step away from the calling becomes the path that leads you to the calling. That was the first time I learned that. And I learned that a few other times after. So I go to school. I'm kind of doing the writing thing in a really technical way. News writing, I was an entertainment writer at one point. But concurrently, you know, I'm also on my own internal journey. And for me, writing, journaling, reading was always the medium. That was always my personal medium of expression, reflection, healing. So while I'm doing it for, you know, it's a way to pay the bills.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  It's a way to get the rent paid, you know, in some sense. At the same time, it's also this very deeply personal thing that I'm going through. And so I'm writing kind of like essays and pieces here and there. And I'm posting them online at the same time. And really, at the beginning, you know, I really had a meaningful experience with creating those pieces, but no one really read them. That's kind of it.

• 4:18Rick Rubin?

  Do you feel like you were writing them for someone else? Or you feel like you were writing them for yourself?

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Myself.

• 4:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 4:23Speaker 01

  100% myself.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  I was changed from having written that. And I think that when people were ready for it, I find that how deeply I meet it becomes the bandwidth of how deeply they can meet it. So I was kind of narrating my own experience. It alchemized me, it changed me. When I give it to them, now it depends on where people are at and, you know, it shifts, it goes in waves, really. They have a way of meeting it at a similar degree. Over time, it kind of starts to build and more and more people are reading these pieces and sharing them. And then my one book, A Hundred and One Essays That Will Change the Way You Think, that was kind of the turning point, 2016. Now, when we put that book together, it was like an experiment.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  It was all pieces that were online or already published. We just thought, well, let's just put them together in a book. If you enjoyed these, you could have that, right? And so, you know, I was an independent publisher. There was no press, there was no, there was nothing, you know?

• 5:23Rick Rubin?

  When did you start posting online?

• 5:25Speaker 01

  2013.

• 5:27Rick Rubin?

  2013, so post for three years. So you were a writer for hire?

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:32Rick Rubin?

  For publications? What would be some of the publications?

• 5:35Speaker 01

  I wrote for Teen Vogue, I wrote for Bustle, I wrote for Forbes for a while. But Thought Catalog is where I started and...

• 5:41Rick Rubin?

  What is Thought Catalog?

• 5:42Speaker 01

  It's an independent publisher now. And at the beginning, it was like kind of a digital magazine and it was kind of a smorgasbord of things at the beginning.

• 5:50Rick Rubin?

  Is it yours or is it outside of you?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  It's not mine, but I'm a partner there now.

• 5:54Rick Rubin?

  Oh, I see.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  And so it's really evolved over the years. But at the very beginning, when I came into it, it was, you know, there were a lot of different writers and a lot of different voices. And I was working for them, but also there was definitely space to experiment and say, hey, if you want to try to publish this, go ahead. That opening was what allowed me to even start to share some of this stuff because no one else would have probably published it or touched it. You know what I mean? There was, there was an opportunity and that, even just that was, was a gift, really. Because I had to write the writing for hire part, that was my job. That was also really part of the path because it really strengthened the muscle. You know, when you're writing, you know, news articles, you get your assignment and then you kind

• 6:39Speaker 01

  of have minutes to, you know, get your first sentences written and then kind of, you know, piece it together, research, chapter research is very, it's very quick. And so it helped me strengthen this muscle that allowed me to really override the writer's block at all. You know what I mean? Like I, there was no time for that. And then where that brought me was this place of being able to untie writer's block into either when I'm stuck, I either don't know what I'm trying to say, or I'm trying to say it in a way that's too far removed from how I would naturally think or speak. One of those two things is at play when I'm stuck. And so if I can pause, recognize what's the problem, gain clarity, or bring it back to

• 7:23Speaker 01

  center, usually I can kind of work my way through it. But it's also the ability to just wake up and start writing is, I find hard for people, but it was kind of necessary for me. And so that was also really part of what made this go where it's gone. And so, you know, as I said at the beginning, there's no press, there's no, there's nothing really promoting this. But one of the most special parts of my journey to me is that what ended up happening is people started sharing the books amongst themselves. You know, they had an experience with it. Like I had the experience writing it. And then what I noticed people like to do is when they experience something that really

• 8:06Speaker 01

  touches them, they want to share it with others. They say, oh, you've got to read this, you've got to listen, you've got to check this out.

• 8:13Rick Rubin?

  It's the most beautiful gift.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Right. And so year by year, it was like selling more copies and more and more and more. And it was just kind of, you know, and I was also posting online too. So it was like, it was being shared that way as well, but it's, it's really the word of mouth that moved it. And then everything kind of came up around the summer, I think of 2021, if I'm not mistaken.

• 8:36Rick Rubin?

  So the book originally came out in 2016.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 8:39Rick Rubin?

  And then between 2016 and 2021, you'd say it was a slow build, but consistent?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:45Rick Rubin?

  Or ups and downs along the way?

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Generally consistent, some ups and downs, but it definitely grew and grew. In 2020, I wrote The Mountain Is You. And in between, there were some other books, there was some poetry prior to that. Those are just the two that people. No, bye.

• 9:01Rick Rubin?

  To you, are the other books inconsequential? Or are they, people just haven't found them yet?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  For the poetry in the other books, when I was writing them, that was probably a deeper experience for me. It was probably a more intimate and raw experience for me. But when I went into them, I did so knowing that it probably wouldn't reach as many people. But I feel very complete and at peace with it because it feels like it has reached who really needed to or was meant to. And I don't think that everything we do is meant to reach the exact same scale over and over and over again.

• 9:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, each project has its own life, and it's fun.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  100%. And if you can match both the depth and the scale, I mean, amazing. But that's just not every single time. But they're all beautiful to me.

• 9:53Rick Rubin?

  You'll not make the things you want to make if you're trying to do that. And if you're following your interests, it would crush them.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think it does for a lot of people.

• 10:06Rick Rubin?

  Was all of the first book a compilation of things that you had already posted?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:11Rick Rubin?

  So a compilation of previous works. It takes on a life of its own in the physical form. And then would you say the next breakthrough book would be The Mountain Is You?

• 10:22Speaker 01

  That's exactly right, yeah.

• 10:23Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about The Mountain Is You and how is The Mountain Is You different than 101 Essays?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  The Mountain Is You is completely different. When I was writing each piece in 101 Essays, I didn't even know it was a book.

• 10:33Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  And it was also online. And so a lot of things are listed out and written in short form the way you would write it online. And so some people, when they just come across the book itself, they're like, it's a funny format. And I'm like, well, it's funny because of its origins.

• 10:47Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  And The Mountain Is You is completely different because when I went into that, I knew it was a book, and it was a very, very, very clear vision to me. And it was like almost an assignment.

• 10:58Rick Rubin?

  Who would the assignment have been from?

• 11:00Speaker 01

  I want to say my higher self.

• 11:02Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  It was like I could close my eyes and I could touch the cover.

• 11:07Rick Rubin?

  Did you have the title before you started writing?

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I remember I was like in my twenties and I was at a coffee shop with my best friend and I was, this is before I'd written it, I was like launched over the table looking at her like crazy. I was like, it's called The Mountain Is You. And she's like, okay, I believe you. It sounds great. But she's like, you were so intense.

• 11:26Rick Rubin?

  And it came to you in that moment?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  It was right before that, but I was kind of then bringing it to people in my life, like, what do you think about this? Because I really have this idea. And I think they were struck by how intense I was about it, how clear, how strong it was in me.

• 11:42Rick Rubin?

  It's a great title. I love the title.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Thank you. Appreciate that. When we were finishing the cover, I had so clearly seen it in my mind. There were, I think it was thirty seven final files in the folder of Tweaking The Mountain Over One Pica.

• 12:01Rick Rubin?

  I understand. I understand.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  I was like, it's not quite right. And, you know, everyone's like, it looks beautiful. Or, you know, that might be more symmetrical. I'm like, ah, it has to make me feel, I know what it's supposed to be. So this is a really unique experience I had with this book. And I also wrote it three or four times, by the way.

• 12:17Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about that.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And each time I would get to the end and say, this is not, no, it wasn't coming out the right way.

• 12:25Rick Rubin?

  Would you say the content was the same, but the writing changed?

• 12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like the essence of what I am trying to communicate is present throughout. It's my ability to communicate it that needed work. And I think I gave it that where I tried to anyway. And when I got to the final version, I knew, because I wrote that last page and that the last line is,

• 12:54Speaker 01

  One day, the mountain that is in front of you will be so far behind you. It will barely be visible in the distance. But the person you become, learning to get over it, will stay with you forever. And that is the point of the mountain. I had a feeling that I don't know that I'll ever have again in my life. I don't even know if I want to have it again in my life. Because it was so much to get there. I don't even know that I care to have it again. But it was, I don't even want to call it a high, but it was something I couldn't describe to you. But it was like on the nose, put down the pen. That is it. It is done. And, you know, it's funny because I look back on that book and it's like, well, you know, I have years of experience now that, first of all, I don't know if anyone else experiences it like this,

• 13:39Speaker 01

  but I don't think I could write it again. It feels complete to me. I don't think I could go back there again.

• 13:45Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, you've completed that thought and you've moved on. And that was, that was a moment in time.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yes, and it feels done. So I don't think that I even could. I definitely look back on older stuff and think, oh, sometimes, you know, I know what you were trying to get at. I see where you were trying to go with that.

• 14:02Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Not quite. It didn't quite come all the way through, but I do see where you were trying to get. And I don't feel that way with that book. It's like, even if I could have technically done it better, it really feels, I feel finished with it, I feel at peace with it. It feels just what I wanted it to be.

• 14:18Rick Rubin?

  Having the title, before you start writing, describe how much of what you know this book is going to be about.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  So when I start with the title, and then I start with kind of my main thesis, basically. And to me, I'm ready to work with it if I can communicate it to you in about a sentence. If I can't get it that clear, I don't know it well enough yet. And so my theory here I was working with was self sabotage is the presence of coexisting, but conflicting needs. One is unconscious, one is conscious. And so it's like when two tectonic plates come up against one another, it creates what appears as a mountain, but it's really two. Conflicting pieces of you needing to independently be resolved. So that's what I was worried, that's the big umbrella.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  And then the next part is coming up with kind of the however many sub-points that prove that point to me. And I don't remember how many chapters the book is, actually, but I knew I was really ready to dive in when I had had them all lined out. You know what I mean? Like, I was like, okay, one through, however many it is. And then I will even also, when I have the chapter, I will do the inside the chapter. It's like, what's these five things I need to touch on in that chapter? And then it's kind of like you're filling it in rather than...

• 15:41Rick Rubin?

  So you'd say you do an extensive outline

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:45Rick Rubin?

  of the ideas.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:47Rick Rubin?

  And then you flesh out the language.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:50Rick Rubin?

  Explaining those.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  That's right, yeah. And I find that if I don't do it that way, I front-load. So it's like, the first chapter or two has everything, all of my momentum, everything I'm trying to say, and I kind of run out of gas.

• 16:05Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  It doesn't give you a paced-out reading experience.

• 16:08Rick Rubin?

  How did you learn that method?

• 16:10Speaker 01

  I made it up.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  I made it up.

• 16:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, if it works, it works.

• 16:19Rick Rubin?

  What did you learn during the writing of the book?

• 16:24Speaker 01

  How to adapt and how to stay committed to the vision while open to how we get there.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  I think that was the biggest lesson of that book. And I could have only come through that book because it was really one of the very few times when I'd had such a clear intention at the start.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  And to go in and to realize, oh, this doesn't look and feel the way that I had envisioned it, that could have either been the point at which I gave up and let it go or kept adapting, kept working with it, kept rewriting. And really, actually, it's an internal shift that's happening in me. And it really ironically was probably my own journey of self-sabotaging of the book.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  And processing through that, too.

• 17:14Rick Rubin?

  Do you think that the book that you envisioned at the beginning and the book that you ended up with are identical? Or did it evolve in the process of writing it?

• 17:24Speaker 01

  The outside, and I would say the biggest pieces of it are identical. And I would say that I'm happy with how other parts evolved to be better than I thought they were going to be.

• 17:41Rick Rubin?

  How would you say writing ideas is different than saying ideas?

• 17:48Speaker 01

  To me, I don't feel that they're that different. And I think that that's what trips people up a lot. When we sit down to write, I think sometimes we have an awareness that other people are going to read it, see it, feel something about it, think something about it. And it botches the process. We're writing for the audience of many before we've tested on the audience of one. And when we're speaking, it's kind of just like a clear stream that's coming through. And in speaking, there seems to be this kind of a more willingness to make a mistake. You're finding it while you're going through the process of talking. Sometimes when you write, you sit down to write, you feel like you have to get it perfect, you know, on that first, that first try.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  I think the willingness to even talk through what you're writing or even transcribe it from speaking into words is so powerful because people actually, more than you think, like to read the way you speak because they like to read the way they think. It's easier to follow.

• 18:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Will you transcribe what you say and then edit it?

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I try not to edit too much, especially if I, you know, really come to something, I'm like, that's it. I find that every time I give it too much editing.

• 19:08Rick Rubin?

  It loses its.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  It loses it.

• 19:10Rick Rubin?

  Its natural state.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  100%.

• 19:13Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Every time.

• 19:14Rick Rubin?

  The speaking version is combination of your thoughts, but it's also in the moment, spontaneous, and your subconscious is with you.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:25Rick Rubin?

  Whereas when you're editing it, it's the brain doing the work, not everything doing the work.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  That's right. Yeah.

• 19:33Rick Rubin?

  What do you think it was in your young life that compelled you'd want to help people?

• 19:43Speaker 01

  I really don't know.

• 19:44Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the home you grew up in.

• 19:46Speaker 01

  I grew up on Long Island.

• 19:49Rick Rubin?

  Describe the house in the neighborhood.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I lived on the dead end, a little Cape Cod.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  And I have a younger sister and a much younger brother. We live near my mom's side of the family, so we had a big family.

• 20:03Rick Rubin?

  Do you remember the first time you went into Manhattan?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. I was probably seven or eight, going in right before Christmas time. My dad worked in the city. And I remember we were skipping down the street. We were singing some Christmas song and it was snowing.

• 20:25Rick Rubin?

  Did you go to see the big tree?

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 20:29Rick Rubin?

  And then where did you go to college?

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Pennsylvania.

• 20:33Rick Rubin?

  How did it feel to move out of your parents' house and go to Pennsylvania at that age?

• 20:40Speaker 01

  I don't know if you've experienced this in the same way. I know other people have, leaving somewhere that the culture is very particular. I think always comes the little bit of adjustment shock.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  It was very different, but I liked it.

• 20:57Rick Rubin?

  And how was your experience in school? You liked it?

• 21:00Speaker 01

  I liked it a lot.

• 21:01Rick Rubin?

  Cool.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  I graduated a year early. I think I felt ready to begin.

• 21:07Rick Rubin?

  Were you already writing in school?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:10Rick Rubin?

  Already?

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Yes. By the last year that I was there, I was already writing for a thought catalog. And I was doing that in between. It's like at the library in between classes and afterwards. But I was writing throughout because I was an English major. It was out, my concentration was professional writing. So it was the coursework, but it was also what I was doing for myself and journaling, just being on my own path with it.

• 21:37Rick Rubin?

  How do you publish your books?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  So it was through Thought Catalog. That's where the first pieces were published. So we kind of came up with the idea of, you know, let's put them together and make it into a book. And it's kind of a funny story because I think it's, I would imagine it's pretty unique, kind of how the whole thing's come to be. But I kind of got to have a hand in the full experience of building the publishing house year by year.

• 22:04Rick Rubin?

  Is your book the first book that they published?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  No, there was many others and still are. But, you know, it was kind of step by step of getting into stores or, you know, and kind of just watching it unfold. And it was, I think, a unique way to go about it, but a way that I'm grateful for because I don't think I would have had quite the freedom that I did if we had done it another way.

• 22:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  And I actually remember years later talking to other publishers who were, you know, making offers or, and the reason it was a no was always I got a sense that they wanted to move it in a way that didn't feel, and it didn't, I wasn't even opposed necessarily, but it wasn't like that alive vision. It wasn't like I wasn't self-directing it anymore. Do you know what I mean? I was, it was clear that I wasn't going to be the only one making thirty-seven final edits to the cover.

• 23:06Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  And I think that for some people, many people, I think they sometimes even like that, like the passing off of those duties. You know, like, I don't have to, I don't want to have to worry about those things. I don't, I want every, you know, I like picking the paper and the font.

• 23:26Rick Rubin?

  Do you consider yourself a perfectionist?

• 23:29Speaker 01

  Yes, but only in some ways. With this. Terrible.

• 23:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  This, I can't let, it's like I can't let it go.

• 23:37Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Even the tone of the paper.

• 23:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  It's got to feel and look.

• 23:42Rick Rubin?

  But when you get that right, you're good to sign off when you're happy.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  One hundred percent. I won't look back in very much. I really won't. I feel at peace once it's done.

• 23:53Rick Rubin?

  The reason that it takes time is because you want it to be the way you imagine it being and not because there's some part of you that doesn't want it to come out. You're not sabotaging yourself in that way.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  No, no, no, I don't think that. It's just, it needs to change me first.

• 24:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  It's the best way I can explain it. Until I've had the full completed experience with it. Until it's completely changed me for, it's not done.

• 24:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. That's the proof of concept. If it's changed you, then it's got the potential to change someone else.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  You're the litmus test. Yeah. One of my first writing mentors, she's a songwriter. And she worked in Nashville for many years. And, you know, for her, she said, you know, I always have to wait to hear the last note in my head. And then I can start. I thought, that's intriguing. And it was something I really carried because it's not that you're actually envisioning every line, every chick. Because you can't do that. To me, it's more, you have a grasp of the full concept. You understand what you are trying to communicate to the world. You see, you know where you're trying to go with this. You know what I mean? You're connected to a bigger bird's eye vision.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  And to me, that's how I operate a lot of the time. It's really, to me, it's not the last note. It's how will they feel when they get to the last page? That's what it is. When they get to the last page, what has changed? What is different? What physically feels different inside of them? And them being the reader. If I don't have that yet, I don't have it yet.

• 25:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. You described the feeling of looking at older pieces you've written and saying, oh, you know what she's getting at. But. It may not be there yet. Do you ever read something that you wrote and be surprised with the wisdom in it?

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know if you're allowed to say that.

• 25:59Rick Rubin?

  You're allowed to say it. It's an amazing thing because it really is a magical process.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:06Rick Rubin?

  I think it's because it's not really coming from us. You know, it's like we're lucky to be in the vicinity.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  That's right. No, we put ourselves in the way. We put ourselves in the way.

• 26:19Rick Rubin?

  Exactly.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  You volunteer.

• 26:21Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  I say this about purpose all of the time. We think of it like an act or a vocation or an identity. It is life's way of asking for volunteers. It's like little bells that ring when life is asking for volunteers. Can someone write this? Can someone take care of this?

• 26:39Rick Rubin?

  Can you raise your hand?

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Can you raise your hand? It's exactly right. But the bells that you can hear tend to be the ones that you are uniquely equipped to respond to. You have, you know, the systems, the vessel, the experience that can do it in a very specific way. And you don't have to respond to it. But when you do, well, so begins really a journey of your life as well. Because there's going to be a space between where you are and the completion of that. And so your purpose really becomes the person you become. And then this is the way that person does everything. That's your life, your legacy. And also, the thing you volunteered for gets completed.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Every time I felt like I'd said yes to, okay, this, the next wave, the next chapter, the next book, the next... It has coincided with, I am saying okay to the next wave of my own growth and evolution as a person. I'm going to go there. I'm going to think this through. I'm going to expand. It's like I placed the anchor point outside of my perimeter of possibility. And so now I have to shatter that and open it even more. And then you kind of find it's infinite.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Go on with it forever.

• 27:59Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the next book.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Oh, the one for next year? Oh, yeah. So I have had this idea since I was like 19. And did not have the skill to bring it in. And God, I hope I do. I hope I do now.

• 28:17Rick Rubin?

  What stage are you at?

• 28:19Speaker 01

  No, it's done.

• 28:19Rick Rubin?

  It's done. Great. Congratulations.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 28:22Rick Rubin?

  It sounds like you've been cooking it for a long time.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  It's been cooking. Yeah, it's been percolating for a long time.

• 28:26Rick Rubin?

  But the actual writing, when did you start?

• 28:28Speaker 01

  A few months. Well, it was like a year, but I took breaks. And now, to me, the book writing process has taken on a little bit of a different way. Because it's now, it's more like, you know, I'm kind of, I'm living it and having the experience. And by the time I'm writing it down, it's like I already know what I'm gonna say, kind of. So this book, I, it's like, the table of contents is structured, like, read this when your heart is broken, read this when.

• 28:53Rick Rubin?

  So it's recipes?

• 28:55Speaker 01

  It's recipes, yeah. And, you know, I used to think back then, I wish there was like, a little book I could pull out. That was like, I used to call it an encyclopedia of feeling. And I actually had this idea, I was like, what if I called it an encyclopedia of feeling? And the book was all different feelings, and I could just, that didn't quite, you know, get there, and that's fine. But it turned into this. And I called the book The Life That's Waiting. And I had a few different ways I was gonna title it, but, you know, on the other side of the life you are forcing to work, the life you are holding together, is the life that is waiting. When we let go of what is trying to pass, we can enter the next thing. That's really my whole point.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Because really, you know, each piece is for these transition points. And the discomfort and the fear of going through the transition points. And when we, you know, start to near, you know, turning the bend, that's when we tend to get, oh, I don't know. And I find that people, I think, experience the most stress during the transition points in their lives. And I can think of so many books and authors that I have picked up in transition points. They've talked me through. Or even in my own writing practice, I've talked myself through. There's a page in The Mountain Is You and it says, "Your new life is going to cost you your old one.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  It's going to cost you your comfort zone, your sense of direction. It's going to cost you relationships and friends. It's going to cost you being liked and understood. But it doesn't matter because the people who are meant for you will meet you on the other side. You'll build a new comfort zone around the things that actually move you forward. Instead of being liked, you'll be loved. Instead of being understood, you will be seen. All you will lose is what was built for a person you no longer are. Let it go.

• 30:49Rick Rubin?

  That's great.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Thank you. I had to chant that back to my own self. You know, we're talking before about, we say yes to be a volunteer, right? Okay, I'm going to take this on. Right, I'm going to go through this growth process to be the being, the vessel, that can bring this, you know, into the physical.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  So much of that process to me is working through those fixed parts of our identity that are standing in the way. And those fixed parts are, I am not talented. I am not smart. People like me don't do things like this.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  No one will read this. No one will care. And it's like, it's very hard to move through them. And they are really kind of killing off the consciousness that's trying to come through.

• 31:43Rick Rubin?

  Do you have any rituals you practice?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  A lot.

• 31:47Rick Rubin?

  Tell me.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  So, since living near mountains or on mountains for the past few years, every morning, as soon as I wake up, and this is sometimes before even the sun rises, I would go to the mountaintop, literally.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  And I'll either hike, I'll walk, or sometimes if it's too cold, I'll just drive. And...

• 32:09Speaker 01

  To me, that is where the noise is gone. You know, here. And I kind of get my, my plan for the day, my ideas.

• 32:20Rick Rubin?

  So, one of the things, sounds like quiet is important in that place?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:25Rick Rubin?

  Is it the feeling of being on the mountaintop? Or is it what you can see from the mountaintop?

• 32:31Speaker 01

  It's both. It's both. It's, it's being up there, but I think it's also like metaphorically, the perspective. You know, the replacing things into the greater perspective. I think that's what it kind of like yolks out of me. And, you know, it's funny because it's, it's not something I have to even encourage or kind of like discipline myself to do. It, it's so like, I get up and I'm like, go.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  But when that's not possible, if I'm not there, I'm traveling, whatever. If I can manage meditation in the morning, every morning, even just five or 10 minutes, even if I can only get it in the shower, seriously. And to get into my journal. And, you know, sometimes I've found myself, you know, stuck in kind of patterns of, well, I need to write something amazing this morning, you know? And I need to blow my own mind this morning. And, eh, not always. And so I've, I've kind of started all these, these little things I do. Like I, I come up with like a hundred ideas.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  And most of them are like terrible or repeat ideas. That's not the point. It's that I'm waking up the part of my brain that is thinking of ideas. And, you know, I did this years ago. And I actually just picked it up again because I was like, I gotta get back to that. So I was looking back at the journals where I was just all these ideas. And I'm telling you, if out of a hundred, 70 of them are nothing. But there are a few that I'm like, hey, there's something there. And to me, it's just getting that going. It's just getting those gears in motion.

• 34:10Rick Rubin?

  And you might not get the good ones if you don't let the bad ones come through.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  That is exactly right. And that's, that's the exact same thing with writing in general, where it's like, you know, there's. We're talking about the difference between when we're speaking and when we're writing. And you know, there seems to be like an inner resistance to one much more than the other. And it's like, right, because when you're writing, you kind of have some awareness that it will be or you want it to be for the audience. Right? And so then it's like when you're, when you're going into it, it's like, well, it needs to sound just the way it's going to present. And it's like, but then you're trying to make your starting point, the endpoint. You're not really ever going to get there. I've kind of made a promise, a quiet promise to myself, which is when we're writing, you can say anything, you can do anything. This is a free space.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  We will go through a really critical cleanup and discernment process of what comes into a book or goes out to the world.

• 35:05Rick Rubin?

  To let it all out.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 35:07Rick Rubin?

  That's great.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  And it's about me getting to an internal place that feels safe and secure enough to actually get to the good stuff.

• 35:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Open. Open. It's beautiful.

• 35:25Rick Rubin?

  When did you learn to meditate?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Technically in Big Sur from a Zen meditation teacher. And then that's where I learned that style. You know, it's the, you sit on the little tuffet and we're just, you know, watching the thoughts pass like clouds, you know? So that, I would say that was where I kind of formally learned. I don't know if this is right, but to me meditation takes on many different forms.

• 35:49Rick Rubin?

  Sure.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  To me, when I'm walking or driving to the mountains in the morning, music in the car is meditation time. That to me is, it really brings me into a meditative state, honestly, kind of naturally. So that was when I learned it in the technically correct way. But before that, I think the real way I learned and got introduced to it was by the Headspace app. I think it was like on the very first iPhone.

• 36:15Rick Rubin?

  Nice.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  That I got this, I mean, I can't even imagine what year this would have been. Long time ago. There's a little like orange.

• 36:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. It's a great app.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  You know what I'm talking about.

• 36:25Rick Rubin?

  Of course.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  And I remember downloading it. And at the time, this is very, you know. I didn't know anyone who meditated. Well, actually, it was summer between college and I was up in upstate New York, Whiteface Mountain. It's really beautiful. If you ever get the chance to go. And I was hiking. I remember sitting next to a lake. Can't remember the name of the lake. And I thought I would try this app. And I remember sitting there, not really knowing what to do. And this is kind of funny. They sound weird.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  And those were the beginnings.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  That was the humble beginnings of my meditation journey.

• 37:06Rick Rubin?

  Those will be guided meditations, which were beautiful.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  That's right, yeah.

• 37:11Rick Rubin?

  Can you remember some of the books that inspired you over the years in your seeking?

• 37:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And I'm such a broken record because I've been at speaking engagements where I was like, everyone get out your phone and buy The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. And I get off my manager's like, it's great, but you have to sell your own book, girlfriend.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  That's how much I feel for this. The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. Please, everyone. I mean it. In that book, he talks about upper limits. He talks about his 25, 30 years of coaching. And how he said, you know, if I could distill every barrier, internal barrier that people came upon into one concept, I would call it an upper limit, which is basically that the company grew too big for our inner functioning. The body was starting to experience more good feeling than it had the comfort and capacity to feel. And so we unconsciously self sabotaged back into a familiar baseline. I quoted him in The Mountain Zoo. In that book, he also talks about your zone of genius.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  And I wish he had called the book Zone of Genius or written. I think he actually did end up writing another one about this because I am glad he did. That we have our zone of genius, our zone of excellence, our zone of competence and our zone of incompetence. And that the genius zone is that radical flow state, you know, where time is lost and we're doing something that is almost defying what is possible for who we are or where we are at. And that's where the real magic comes in. But to be able to access that zone requires us to not get caught under these upper limits and to stay in, you know, the familiar comfort of what we have known. And my

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Interpretation of that, the words that I've placed to that is, anything new, no matter how good, is uncomfortable until it's also familiar. It doesn't matter how good it is for you. And so we organize feelings into feels good and feels bad. When it's really feels good, does good, feels bad, does bad, is really probably more accurate. The Big Leap. Another book is Tiny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed. I love Cheryl. I think she is one of the greatest of our generation. She's absolutely wonderful, wonderful lady. And the, I don't know if you ever read The Rumpus? It's another online magazine back in the day.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  But these were columns of hers when she was an anonymous advice columnist, Dear Sugar. And where she brought these pieces is unbelievable. The divinity she brought to an online advice column,

• 40:03Speaker 01

  something to which I could only aspire in my lifetime to get anywhere close to. Jack Kerouac's The Scripture of the Golden Eternity.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Everything is ecstasy inside. We just don't know it because of our thinking minds. But in our true blissful essence of mind, it is known that everything is all right forever and forever and forever. That piece really has been very, very meaningful to me. And there were a number of other books throughout the years. The wisest one in the room.

• 40:35Rick Rubin?

  And would you say you mostly read books that are self-improvement? Or do you read other kinds of books as well?

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Mostly self-improvement, but not because I'm like in the world.

• 40:46Rick Rubin?

  It's what you like.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:48Rick Rubin?

  It's the other way around. You like that and that's why you do that.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  That's what I mean.

• 40:52Rick Rubin?

  You're the reader.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  I was reading those since I was like 16.

• 40:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, you're not doing the research.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  No, like I'm just.

• 40:58Rick Rubin?

  You're not doing the research for your work. You're doing the research for your life.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  So there was, there was a period between 2013, 2017, where I would go to Barnes and Noble. And I didn't have enough money at the time to buy the books. So I would. Literally read every new release. And I would sit at the little cafe and buy $2 coffee, which I don't think you're supposed to do. So I'm sorry if anyone's listening that. It works there. I don't do it anywhere else. But I would sit there and I would take a notebook and I would go through all the new releases in philosophy, psychology, business. I was just was insatiable. And I, you know, I would be alone. I'd be like alone on a Friday night. I'd be 23. I was, I moved by this in a way that was, it was bigger than me. And there was definitely a moment when,

• 41:46Speaker 01

  years into this, I were believing one night. It was really late and I was in the parking lot. It was dark. And I got in my old Jeep Patriot. And I remember sitting in the, in the driver's seat and thinking, I could write that. And that was the first time that really clicked in of I could do that. And immediately it was Matt with, please, like, pack it up. Keep moving.

• 42:11Rick Rubin?

  But there was a part of you in a moment that recognized.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:15Rick Rubin?

  The possibility.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yes. And then it was for years, this journey of, I'm not really special, you know? Just like a random girl from Long Island.

• 42:30Rick Rubin?

  Everybody's a random person from somewhere. That's all we are.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  That's what got me through it. I'm not kidding you.

• 42:37Rick Rubin?

  That's all we are.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  I started kind of reading about or listening to or looking into. I was like, well, who? Everyone I admire, everyone I look up to, who I think is so incredible. What were they all up to before they were doing the things I know them for? And they all have their own stories, of course. But it's like, until you know them, you know, Mary Oliver is my favorite poet. And it's like, well, who was Mary Oliver before she was Mary Oliver? It's like, well, an aspiring poet, you know? She's a human being with her own, you know, life experiences. But it seems like I was looking for or waiting for, you know, something or someone to come along and say, you, you know? And that never, it wasn't coming.

• 43:19Rick Rubin?

  No, that's not how it works.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  That's not how it works.

• 43:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Are you always writing?

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  My notes app on my phone is the main medium. I was driving cross-country earlier this year and I was in Texas and I pulled over on the side of the road because I had an idea. An officer came up behind me, he's like, ma'am, you know, like, what's going on? I was like, officer, don't worry. I was like, I just had an inspired idea, I had to write it down. This man is looking at me like, oh my god. He was like, oh man, please be safe, you can't do this. People, like, so like that, okay?

• 44:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  But it's just always coming, you know, it's kind of like, this isn't a nice way to put it, but it's kind of like throw up.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  When it comes, I'm like, I just got to catch it, you know what I mean? So it's like, I got, he got.

• 44:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, because the same one doesn't come back usually.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't.

• 44:15Rick Rubin?

  It's fleeting.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  If I don't get it, those words in that moment, it passes me and then I'm, I can't, I was like, what was that I was trying to say? And when I'm really in it and I'm on it, it will come to me almost in completion and it's, well, everything you read in a book, on a post, whatever, 99.9% of the time, it came out exactly like that with maybe a slight grammatical change here and there, but barely anything else.

• 44:48Rick Rubin?

  How would you say your relationship to writing has changed from 2013 till now?

• 44:56Speaker 01

  I have less anxiety. I don't feel a need to prove something. I think I realized over time, whatever it was I was desiring of approval was, it was imaginary. Even if it came in some way that I wanted it to come, it still didn't give me permission to, you know, be who I wanted to be. So, less anxiety, less feeling a need to prove and less even.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Need or want to be good. I don't even know if that makes sense, but that really is how I feel.

• 45:37Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Before, I was so hung up on like, this has got to be great. And now I think, I don't know, maybe sometimes it's not.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  And it's so, I used to think of like the readers as like a one mind. I noticed this over time, where it was like when I'm judging something, I'm like, oh, well, like, this is how this would be perceived. And it's like, people have such myriad experiences, you know, they could read a passage one day to the next and think something completely different about it, let alone from person to person. You know what I mean? It's an inkblot test I'm creating for them. You know what I mean? I have no idea what they're gonna see in it. I don't know, I can't control that. But I was trying to control that at the beginning. And I was doing this thing where it's like if you had a painting in a museum and you put your email address next to it, sorry, just describe it and said, okay, everyone give your feedback. And it's like everyone who viewed it emailed you and said, well, you should use this different color and painted this different way and use this different canvas.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  And eventually it would be fractured off into nothing. But that's what I was preemptively doing in my own mind before there was even a painting there. You see what I'm saying?

• 46:47Rick Rubin?

  Absolutely.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Before it was even, I was criticizing it out of existence before it even existed.

• 46:54Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  With the anticipation of what someone could think or what.

• 46:59Rick Rubin?

  Which you could not know.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Which I could never know.

• 47:01Rick Rubin?

  Impossible to know.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 47:03Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  And so it's like, so what's this projection that I'm coming at with this? Because how could I possibly know that? I would say if anything, I've been pleasantly surprised that I, you know, I've put something out and people say, oh, you know, I enjoyed that. Like, oh, okay, that went better than I thought. And then I realized I wasn't working with the perception. I was working from, you know, my own inner bandwidth of when I'm thinking you don't like that, I'm saying, I don't like it yet. And that's a really humbling place to be.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  And it's a very quiet place because it's like, okay, I have to come to terms with this doesn't move me yet. I don't feel great about this yet. And there's a lot of ego that gets wound in that of, well, what does this mean? Does this mean I'm not good enough? Am I not talented? Can I not produce? Am I not cut out for this? You know, we can really extrapolate, take a snapshot of that and just go off with it.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  But I would say from the beginning of writing until now, I don't do that anymore.

• 48:11Rick Rubin?

  That sounds good.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Sounds really good to me, too. That's really the arena of that, that willingness to fail. That's really where it's molded.

• 48:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  And now I, I'm open to the process in a way that at the beginning I was like, no, I've got everything to prove and it's got to be perfect. And now I think if I had a real experience with it, it has moved me and I have the courage to share that. You asked, do you ever look back and think, you know, that was wise? Those particular words wouldn't come, but something that I think somewhat often is, that was ballsy. That was courage. You were that young and wrote something that big and put that out there over and over again?

• 49:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Like, back in I think, I mean, great, but wow.

• 49:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah. How has becoming a successful writer different than you imagined it?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  I think at the beginning I had a lot of fears about like scale or visibility that were irrational. And I found it to be more peaceful and more open than I ever could have dreamed. And I think that's because when we think about success, that can mean a lot of different things. Do we mean a success out of integrity? Or do we mean success in terms of just being seen and appreciated for the essence of what you've been doing all along? Or that I would be doing in an empty room, even if there was no audience, which I did,

• 50:01Speaker 01

  because I kept it there? I think that's why I feel peace. Whereas I definitely have, you know, friends who

• 50:11Speaker 01

  I think that they, in an attempt to get somewhere, sacrificed some things. And then when they got there, it didn't feel so whole. And it felt, I would say, a shame. Things we talk about a lot of this isn't what I wanted. This isn't right. How do I fix this now? And I feel at peace, I really do. People say, you know, what if the best is behind you? I say, great. It means I did the best thing I could do. And other things will have their own, you know, place and time in like the poetry books, you know? And they'll have their own moment and purpose. But I think it's important for me,

• 50:55Speaker 01

  maybe for other people too, I don't know, to get to the end of each experience and say, okay, if I died tomorrow, I'm okay.

• 51:04Rick Rubin?

  Are you surprised by reactions to your work?

• 51:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:09Rick Rubin?

  How does it feel?

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Surreal, and I think sometimes I can't quite process it.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  I would say it impacts people more than I could have anticipated or expected, and in a way that seems deeper and more authentic than I really know what to do with. I think that my best possible scenario was, oh, that wasn't bad. I kind of enjoyed that. Do you know what I mean? Like that, if I could get a few people there, oh, forget it. That would have been, you know, the end all be all. That's all I was trying to get to.

• 51:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  And to meet people. I mean, to book signings or to talk to people online. You know, they really, I've had some really intimate moments with people where

• 51:54Speaker 01

  what I did seemed to act as this container for them.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  And so even though what I was creating was very much about me, when they were in it, it was completely almost for them. And to see that my voice could be lent to those experiences. I think that sometimes I even probably resist fully metabolizing what that means because I don't want it to ruin me.

• 52:20Rick Rubin?

  It's too much.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  It's too much. And also, I like being shocked. And I'm shocked all the time. But I like that and I want to be shocked forever. And I was like, who else is it like this week? I was like, what? Madonna posted my poetry book. See, it always comes around.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. And someone was like, I can't believe you're still like this giddy. I was like, yeah, this is nuts. And then I realized, I want to think it's nuts forever. I want to stay right here with it.

• 52:53Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about your relationship to social media.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Good, actually.

• 52:58Rick Rubin?

  How do you interact with it?

• 53:02Speaker 01

  I think a few years ago, I made a choice to be more particular about how much of my personal life I shared. And I think that made all the difference. And I think the reason I have a pretty positive experience with it is because I'm not bringing things to it that can just become fodder in a way that I don't want them to be. And the way I thought about it back then was, you know, throughout the course of history, you know, there's, a writer could be a writer and then maybe you would read a memoir or an interview, maybe the description in the back of the book and you could learn more about them. Now I feel that there's an expectation. It's unspoken, but it's like anyone, you know,

• 53:44Speaker 01

  any kind of artist also has to kind of be like an influencer, like a lifestyle. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like all the things have to go together.

• 53:52Rick Rubin?

  And they're really different skill sets.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 53:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  They're completely different skill sets. And also, I have a theory and I don't know if it's right, but kind of live by it anyway, which is that I think you kind of only have 13 seconds of people's attention a week. And whatever you use those seconds on, it's like a budget. Got this many dollars to spend.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Just know if you spend this on this, well, then you're not going to have it for this. And so I feel like I've tried to be mindful about.

• 54:26Rick Rubin?

  So when you post, you don't want to waste people's time?

• 54:30Speaker 01

  I really don't. I really don't. And I want it to be like, you know, okay, I've been working on this and I would like you to care if it's possible or be interested. And I just think naturally, like, I think we, people can get fatigued if it's too much. And, you know, too much is very subjective. You know what I mean? So it's like, I think it's different for each person. I think that the person on the receiving end, it's subjective for them too. But for me, I've just always tried to lead with value or what I guess I perceive to be value. And I think that I've had a more positive experience with it over time because of that. Because I've just tried to go in and say, okay, here's what I'm up to and creating and doing.

• 55:15Rick Rubin?

  How often do you post?

• 55:18Speaker 01

  I used to do it once a week and now I'm doing it more, a few times a week now.

• 55:24Rick Rubin?

  On schedule or when you feel like?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  So it's been a mix because it used to be on schedule. I used to be, I used to do it Sunday morning. I used to be really committed to this is my day. I get up, I do my thing. And now I've been working with my intuition a little bit more with it. Sometimes I won't have anything planned. I'll just be like, like this is just what I want to do right now. And I will kind of just go with it. And it feels good right now.

• 55:52Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the nature of the posts.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  It's usually an excerpt from a book and then some.

• 56:02Rick Rubin?

  An excerpt from one of your books?

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, from one of mine. Or in some cases, just something I rewrote. And I'll try to put it into a book later usually because I usually want to know what it's attached to. And sometimes it's nothing. But most of the time, it's it's an it's an excerpt. And then the caption will be quite long, which I didn't think people liked, but they actually love. I don't it surprises me, too, believe me. If they're interested in what they're reading, they like to read more, noticed time and time again. There's a real, I think, kind of mindfulness you have to bring to, you know, how do I sum up the essence of something big that I'm trying to say in something so small? And it takes a lot of refinement.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  I also post the same things over and over again. That's a as to actually, it's something I learned from someone else because I thought it had to be new every time. Now, I'll give things a break. You know what I mean? Like, I'll wait a few weeks, months, years, sometimes. Intriguing, but if I post something, if it's going to be the same words, it will pick up momentum each time. And it's almost like, yeah, it's like the nature of the exposure to it almost warms them up to it more. And they seem more open to it over time. And if their reactions were mixed at the beginning, they will, I just noticed, they warm up over time and reading it again and again. But I'll say this, too.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  This is just personal to me, but I also think that it's kind of a lot to digest, which is why I was kind of more sparse about it. I was like, it's kind of a lot to take in, like, all of the time.

• 57:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  Like a lot, just very saturated. So I was like, well, you know, once a week, maybe you can sit and have a meditative thought. But I released a book in 2023 called The Pivot Year. It's basically just a book of little daily meditations because so many people said that they, and this is understandable, they had time to sit down with a whole nonfiction book, you know, and people are busy, you know what I mean? Like, things are.

• 58:05Rick Rubin?

  It can let you have a commitment.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  It's it's it's a lot, you know, sometimes they can't fit it in, but what they could fit in was a few moments to get the essence of it.

• 58:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  And they really appreciated that. So I made it into that for them.

• 58:21Rick Rubin?

  How long do you typically write for a day? You say you write every day. What's the rhythm?

• 58:26Speaker 01

  It's done after one to three hours. It's over.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  It's done. If I have to go back in because there's something happening or there's a deadline that's really pressing, I'll take a really big break between that. But that's about my timeframe. After that, I'm foggy, I'm fatigued. It's not clear anymore.

• 58:49Rick Rubin?

  Do you work in a typical place?

• 58:51Speaker 01

  No, and I used to have a home office, and I do not anymore.

• 58:56Rick Rubin?

  Did you choose not to, or did the situation change?

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Chose. Very intentionally chose. Because what I realized was, you know, back many, many years ago, when I said, you know, I'm gonna be writing, do the writing thing. It was an intentional choice that I didn't want a desk every day. I know, that's weird, you know, writers like their desks. But I didn't want one. I just wanted to be able to go where I was going or be where I was. If I'm working on a book, I will bring it different places and write there because those environments will offer something to it. And I think that when I go back and look at certain books and I know where they were written and how, I can feel that that came from there. And I try to lean into that. I will actually sometimes even write in my car.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  I'll bring my laptop and connect to my hotspot.

• 59:50Rick Rubin?

  You mentioned before the ritual of going to the mountaintop, but you said you had other rituals. Tell me some of the other ones.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Meditating was the other big one. Journaling.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  This one's simple, but a cup of coffee in the morning and a chair outside and quiet.

• 1:00:09Rick Rubin?

  Do you pray?

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  All of my writing is a prayer,

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  even when it's not direct.

• 1:00:20Rick Rubin?

  Would you say there's a thread that runs through all of your work?

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And what I hope that thread is, is a reminder of who you are. I know when you read it, you might think it's a reminder of who I am, but it's who you are.

• 1:00:39Rick Rubin?

  How do you know if an idea is worthy of a book versus an article?

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  Sometimes I'll test it as an article or as a post

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  to gauge the interest. But usually I know it's a book if I kind of envision it as the concept of a book or think there's enough there that it could be a book. Sometimes the shorter stuff, it's like it's kind of said and done quickly. But The Mountain Is You, for example, there was also a little bit of just realizing how much I struggled with self sabotage, how much everyone around me, even if they didn't call it that, was talking about, basically that. And that there wasn't, there was kind of a market gap. You know what I mean? I was like, I don't really know if some books touch on it.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  I don't think I've ever really come across a book that was like really just about that. And another measure that I will use just for anything being ready is have five people in my life, independent of one another, talk to me about that thing. And once I hear it five times is the number.

• 1:01:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  I know that it is something.

• 1:01:59Rick Rubin?

  The universe is giving you a message.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  And the self sabotage was clear. It's like everyone's talking about this in their own ways, in their own pockets and all separate from one another, but it's coming up in different. And I said, okay. But then it's also just, you know, the vehicle of what brings the words to them, I'm very open with and adaptable with, which I know sounds funny from the person who just confessed to like micro editing pica's on a cover. So I understand. But it's like the pivot your thing. It's like they communicated to me clearly that they enjoyed reading a small piece each day. And I said, great. Ask and you shall receive. If you want a daily devotional, I will give that to you. The words in it, it was what I was doing.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  You know what I mean internally either way? But it's like how it's accessing you or coming to you. I really take the cue from them or what I'm seeing around me or what I just think or feel would be a really strong concept. But there's a lot of testing.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Even if I just post a story of something and I'll just notice how do people care? Is it hitting something? Are you getting responses saying, oh, wow, thing they say more than anything? I feel like you wrote this for me. I feel like this was personally for me. And that's usually a good indicator.

• 1:03:26Rick Rubin?

  Tell me where you think the ideas come from.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  A big collective cloud of ideas. And I, when I'm talking about going to the mountain or whatever else is part of my routine, the other thing that I will talk about, literally my just in my day to day personal life is the antenna, it needs to be quiet so the antenna can go out. And I will get very overwhelmed. I really do. When I'm trying to write or do too much, if I'm in a very busy city or something, my nervousness will really get very, very overwhelmed. It will really affect my wellness. Because it is a lot of effort to keep the antenna where I need it without the cross interference coming through.

• 1:04:16Rick Rubin?

  So you're protective of your space and surroundings?

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  If I need to have clarity in what I'm creating, I can't have too much noise. I mean, like, you know, within reason, like, I've definitely written parts of books in New York City. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's not that it never happens. It's just, you know, when I was working at home and did have a desk at home, this was at a time when I was, my space was very, very, very minimalistic. I had like a desk and a plant. And it's like, because it's not about it even just being physically quiet. It's about the environment being quiet. When the environment's quiet, I can, you know, kind of track what I'm saying better.

• 1:04:52Rick Rubin?

  No distractions in the room?

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  No distractions in the room or around. Whenever it's possible, it's not always possible. So I think that there's also something to be said for being able to hold that space internally. You know, we're human, this is life, it's earth. You know what I mean? We can't always go to the Mecca to do the work. Ideally, yes, but not always. So that's what I did. It was to carve out those spaces. I used to write at night a lot with just a candle. And it wasn't even about it, you know, being the ambiance. It was really that I couldn't see anything else from the screen. I couldn't get distracted by other things. I had to stay on task.

• 1:05:35Rick Rubin?

  What do you spend time doing outside of your work?

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Traveling.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  Spending time with my family and friends.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  Throwing dinner parties whenever I can. Love a dinner party. That's, you know, you want to talk about the real passion of my life. It's a table scape. But people don't know that about me.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  It's a real art to the candles and the wildflowers on there. You know what I mean?

• 1:05:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Then you got to sit out there for a long time.

• 1:06:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  You have wine going. It's a whole thing.

• 1:06:04Rick Rubin?

  What's the right number of people for a dinner party?

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Six to eight.

• 1:06:08Rick Rubin?

  More than that's too many?

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  The sweet spot. No, it can be more than that. And it can be less. That's a really.

• 1:06:14Rick Rubin?

  The magic, six to eight is what you aim for.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Really nice, sweet spot. Yeah. And it's fun when, you know, I've done this sometimes when I've kind of invited, you know, strangers or complete strangers, but you know, a friend of a friend.

• 1:06:29Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Or someone I know in the area. I'm saying, come, come over. It's kind of like a, you know, just drinks to meet other. I think I did like other women my age, you know, that were living in the area. And to see the, even the friendships outside of just me and them that sprout from there and the connections. And then the things that happened after that. The way they end up, someone works with someone. It's really beautiful to watch it happen. And I really enjoy. And I find a lot of happiness in being the one to bring that together and connect people when I can.

• 1:07:06Rick Rubin?

  It's, do you keep a diary?

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Yes, just my journal, though. So it's funny because it's a, it's a mix of like, you know, your new life is going to cost your old one and then like my grocery list.

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  But I think that's like, I think that's a really accurate depiction of like, you know, what my life is like at this time. You know, it's like, oh, the, what I have to pack for this trip and then these chapters and then the phone number for this and try not to be too precious.

• 1:07:36Rick Rubin?

  So it's in everything?

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I try not to be too precious about it.

• 1:07:39Rick Rubin?

  Would it be a page a day or more or less?

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Oh, it really depends. A few pages a day would be perfect. Doesn't always work that way. But that, doesn't that notes app is a, I couldn't even tell you what's in there. Oh, you know what, actually?

• 1:07:55Rick Rubin?

  Do you refer back to it?

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  I just found, like a day ago, this poem that I wrote.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Didn't go anywhere for it, so I found this, I wrote this years ago. "One day, I will be the breeze that blows across the cabin window. I will be the little flower that grows and grows. I will be the bird with no home, for home is an uncaged state. Nowhere and everywhere, 111. I will inhale and all of life will occur to me. I will be rootless, but in the essence of the root itself, I will be free. I will be free."

• 1:08:34Rick Rubin?

  Beautiful.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Just found that from years ago.

• 1:08:38Rick Rubin?

  So nice.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  Where did that even come from? Beyond.

• 1:08:42Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 1:08:45Rick Rubin?

  When did you start keeping the journal?

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Late teens.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  I had a therapist, deep feeler, very sensitive. And I had a therapist who encouraged me to use it as a way to really just express. So it was kind of the beginning. What I noticed was what I was expressing was like, I don't know, various forms of dissatisfaction. Where it was kind of almost like I was illustrating, you know, whatever anguish I was in, like more dramatically.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  And rather than it being a tool for expression, I almost felt like it was magnifying what I didn't want to be experiencing. But that brought me into, you know, I remember, and I literally still have the book. I thought, what if I tried as an experiment to journal? One of two ways, one, to organize my feelings, but not to illustrate them further? Just organize.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  But what if I tried to journal and narrate what I want to be true?

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the turning point of alchemizing the experience.

• 1:10:09Rick Rubin?

  They ended up becoming affirmations instead of complaints.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  That's right. And it was just a perspective shift, really.

• 1:10:16Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, same story, just from a different point of view.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Yes. Like, you're either seeing an ending or in it, a new beginning. You're either seeing a storm that disrupted you or came to clear the way, clear your vision. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:10:32Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  So it's like, no matter what is in front of you, your choice is in how you approach and how you interpret. But I find that, I think for a lot of people, the ability to narrate it differently, or they don't even know that that's possible. They don't even know that they could tell a story differently. They don't know that there even is another way to look at it. It seems fixed, just like those fixed parts of our identity that can't move, you know?

• 1:10:59Rick Rubin?

  It sounds like a new book for you to write, what you're describing.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  Coming out in 2027?

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  It's these fixed parts of us that, when we alchemize, we realize, actually, they weren't fixed at all. In a lot of cases, they were the catalyst for us to change in a way that we probably never could have before. I just heard this like a day ago. It was like, thank you. Say thank you to the problem. Thank you for inspiring me to be greater than I ever could have been if you were not here. Thank you.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  To say thank you to what is broken, what hurts, what is wrong,

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  that feels huge to me. But it also feels like this place that I know, that I feel, which is that very humble place. You know, there's no ego in the room there, so you're really at center. I think it's hard for a lot of people to get to. It's hard for me to get to.

• 1:12:05Rick Rubin?

  How were you lucky enough to go to therapy at such a young age?

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Supportive parent and the counseling program at college.

• 1:12:18Rick Rubin?

  Did many of your friends go for therapy?

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  No, well, and certainly not that we would have talked about much.

• 1:12:31Rick Rubin?

  Was it rooted in a particular issue you wanted to talk about? Or was it more of a general feeling?

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  It was the anxiety and everything else that seemed to color whatever I was going through. But what I think now, being an adult, looking back, just stemmed from being more sensitive and intuitive, really.

• 1:12:52Rick Rubin?

  You felt things that other people didn't feel?

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, or at a level that they weren't felt. And so that capacity, I could either use that for my own self-destruction. You know, that's the same thing that makes all the rest of this stuff happen. So it's like, I don't want to kill off that that part of me. I don't want to heal that out of me. I'm not trying to change that. It's actually just that I'm trying to shift, you know, how I know how to handle it or what I do with it. And when I was younger, I had this feeling like it was only ever me. I was the only one who was thinking this way or feeling this way or going through something.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  And now, being older, I feel and I know, I don't think I'm alone at all in anything. I really don't. And even if, you know, the exact experience that you had is completely unique to you, we are all still working with kind of the same color palette of feelings. And so, yes, we are all individuals. But the processing capacity to understand ourselves and what's happening around us, you know, we're working with the same resources internally. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, there's a resonance. It's like, well, I might have not walked what you've walked. But I know anger because I've felt it.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  So I can understand you having anger. And...

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  I don't think anything in my life has soothed me more than knowing how not alone I am from receiving messages and meeting so many people who say, "Oh, I felt that exactly the way. I felt like you're writing this for me." I felt like that. I'm like, wow. Because the deeper I went, the more authentic and real that I was with it, the more raw, the wider out it went. I thought, that's intriguing. And they noticed that when I didn't go as deep, didn't go as wide. You know, it's also very much about the vehicle of how it's like the poetry book thing. You know what I mean? It's like, I went very deep with that. But the way in which it was put together, you know, that's only going to be for

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  people probably aren't going to pick that up unless they like that form of writing to begin with. So it's not like the universal measure. It's just to say that when I had the courage to say, "I feel this way sometimes," I was amazed by how many other people in the world said, "I feel that too, even though I'm nothing like you."

• 1:15:34Rick Rubin?

  How important are the people you surround yourself with?

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Oh, everything. So important. Oh, my gosh. I probably couldn't overstate it enough.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  I think that the adage of we are like the five people we intentionally choose to spend the most time with is profoundly true. Because I think that we unconsciously adapt and assimilate to what and who is around us. And, you know, one of the gifts of social media is that you can bring your expanders and your muses and your mentors close to you, even if they can't be in direct proximity of you. That's not something we ever could have done before. So I think that it's like, even if in your day to day life, you don't always have the people around you that you would want to be,

• 1:16:29Speaker 01

  I really, really feel it's a gift to be able to connect or have them in your like day to day experience. So I would say that even around me physically, but it's also like a greater network. That's, I feel very much a part of. I think we all are. I think it's an asset that we should lean into.

• 1:16:49Rick Rubin?

  Do you think you connect with more people with your books or with social media?

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Good question, social media, I would say. Probably not even a competition, really. I think there's something

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  interesting about kind of being able to just track where a post or something you put out there would go. Really to corners you would never expect. Whereas you'd have to be interested in this to begin with to pick this up. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:17:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Like, it probably wouldn't occur to you to pick this up if you weren't already in this genre somewhat.

• 1:17:29Rick Rubin?

  You probably wouldn't even know about it.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  You wouldn't, and then you wouldn't be interested. But then to have the potential to be exposed to something where it makes you think or feel, and you think, oh, I never would have read something like that before, but maybe I will now. And I was just talking about this this morning, actually, to someone. It was a really intentional choice of or I tried to put a lot of intention into it, rather, of how to title the books, how to like, style them. You know, I think that sometimes reading books that are for you can feel kind of like, like a confession of weakness when you're like, out and holding it in your hand. Like, you know, like I

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  like, I'm already having a hard time. I don't need everyone to see me reading, you know, like, Relationships for Dummies, you know?

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  I think that something I wanted my readers to feel was like, an empowerment of, you know, I'm reading this because I'm committed to myself. I'm reading this because I want to go inward. I'm reading this because I want to reflect. Like, I wanted it to be a positive experience. Because I have felt that in the books that I've loved so much. I'm, you know, proud to tell the world about them because I love them. And I am grateful to myself for being willing to go there and look at these things and heal and grow and change. And I think it's I don't know, it's got a stigma, you know? It's had for so many years, but it's time to be down with it.

• 1:19:07Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about communication in relationship.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  You need more of it than you think you do.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  In every area of your life, you have to state the obvious more than you think you do. And no matter who you're talking to or who you're working with, it doesn't matter at home, at work, at school, it doesn't matter. To be able to communicate without emotional charge is what creates, I think, strong relationships. And even to communicate your own ideas in a clear way without charge is what effectiveness is to me. And whenever I'm around someone who is really accomplished

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  and whatever it is they do, I notice that they have this kind of essence to them. It's a slow breath. There's a, there's a presence and there's an ability to stay with something and see it through and to be logical and to respond, not react. And it's something that I've had to work on because I think that I'm by nature, as I've said, you know, when you're sensitive, I think it can be your instinct to just react. Right? Everything is scary. Everything is, you know, overwhelming. And to just pause and to just notice, oh, that shortened my breath, that made my heart rate go up,

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  that led me into this line of thinking, is that true? Is that real? And then rather than following those things, you know, because I think a lot of the time they can just lead you into the spiral.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Not the good one. Not the good fortune. To be able to just witness and observe them and communicate to your own self. This is what I'm thinking. This is how I feel about it. I don't prefer this. I'd rather have that. I'm having this thought, but it may be, you know, illogical. I try to bring that into work, love, home, whatever it is, to communicate. And I find that people tend to fear communication.

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  But also when they're on the receiving end of it, appreciate it. When you're even just expressing, I notice this all the time. When you tell someone that you love, oh, I really love this thing, or I really love oranges. You notice that they really find a happiness and, you know, come up from the story. They're like, I got oranges and I love oranges. Like, wow. This is across the board of when you have an openness to communicate, you know, like that it's so well met. And I think that part of the reason we fear communication or resist it a lot of the time is because we associate it with having the emotional charge and that it has to be combative, or it has to be like a conflict, or that we don't communicate until it is

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  a conflict. And then we have to figure it out rather than working with it all along. But I think it's also taking down the barrier of, I'm afraid to say the wrong thing to you. I'm afraid that I will sound stupid. I'm afraid that this is too vulnerable. And I think that with the people who really care about you enough to build a relationship with you, they're willing to meet you in those moments, too, and not judge you, but just be there with you and work from there. But I think that as soon as communication is out, things kind of have a way of dying off.

• 1:22:45Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Have you had any mentors?

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  Oh, many.

• 1:22:50Rick Rubin?

  Tell me.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Oh, so many. And I've had them in different ways. Some of the people that have mentored me the most have done so without knowing that they were. And some of the people who have probably had the most massive impact on my life and work probably would never believe that they had that much of an impact.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  This is a new thought. I've never thought of this before, by the way. Like, in this moment, I'm telling you, this is brand new. But I'm realizing, as I'm saying it out loud right now, it was them braving their own wilderness and building their lives out of their unknown that mentored me by proximity. And often, it is even the people closest to me that I even work with or write with. And just watching them, it's not even that it's exactly what I'm going through or exactly what I'm doing, but it's watching them develop their capacity to respond to what is being brought to them. I've talked about Cheryl Strayed before. What I loved most about that book, Tiny Beautiful Things,

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  is I really feel like she taught me to think the way she wrote. And the way that she wrote, to me, was with such a profound amount of compassion and presence and beauty. And, you know, you could read three paragraphs that woman writes, and you could start with, you know, "I'm completely stuck, okay? There's nowhere else for me to take this, for me to go." You get to the end of that, and you're like, "Oh, the world's my oyster." That's how much power and shift that she brings into her work. You know, I've sent her messages. I have a signed copy of her book at my house, like a little fangirl. But I don't think she could even know

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  or fully understand the magnitude of what she has given me. And it's funny, because I've, you know, I always think of my mentors as my very literal, you know, people I meet with. In this moment, I'm realizing it's been, I don't know, dozens, hundreds of people that have inspired me and moved me in so many different ways.

• 1:25:13Rick Rubin?

  How do you know you wrote something and you like it?

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  It makes sense. But it's not that it follows, like, a logical means to an end. It's just intuitive. It almost has a ring to it. There's a lightness in my body and there's a clearness and there's a coherency of, yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say. It's almost like it was effective. It feels effective if it's done right.

• 1:25:40Rick Rubin?

  Do you have a relationship to a higher power?

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  I do. I don't know that I call it anything. Nature. But I think that everything is a little tiny particle of the one whole thing. And I think that when we remember the one big whole thing, that's when we are kind of magically able to come up with stuff, right? Just kind of a remembering what it once was, where we once were.

• 1:26:18Rick Rubin?

  Do you set goals for yourself?

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  Maybe not fixed goals, but plans and intentions. I really think that planning for the future is a really important part of the process. And I think it's also a very important part of actually mental health, if I could even say. I think it's really important to have something to work toward and something to look forward to. And I think sometimes if you are waiting for someone or something else to come along and give you that end goal, you can end up in these kind of ways of your life, well, where am I going next? And it's like, well, it's not about a linear trajectory from one place to the next. It's just, you know, what do you want to build here?

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  But I think that having, you know, an intention of, you know, well, by next year, I would like to be doing this, or in five years, I would like to be doing this, while still being flexible enough to let life take you where it wants to take you, let life tell you how. That's the magic. That's where it happens. Okay, that's where the whole thing goes. And it's not a goal setting in terms of, you know, they need to sell this many books by this year. It's not that. It's more.

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  I've had this book idea since I was 19. Next year is the year we do this thing. Or I've always wanted to go to Japan. It's not planned yet. But it needs, it's going to be planned.

• 1:27:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Kind of things like that.

• 1:27:54Rick Rubin?

  Have you been around other places around the world with your books?

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, Italy.

• 1:27:59Rick Rubin?

  How's that?

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  Italy a lot. One-on-one essays book, a lot of it was written when I was in Rome. Went to Rome by myself for like a month. I was really young, a little flat. And sights saw a lot, but I really just sat at that window and wrote. It's a really, really special experience for me. And I haven't gone back many times because of that. It just feels like this connection to something, you know, my, well, my mom said I grew up on Long Island's Italian. But it feels intuitively to me like a connection to something ancestral, something older.

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  I feel very held there, I feel very at home.

• 1:28:49Rick Rubin?

  Tell me something you believe now that you didn't believe when you were young.

• 1:28:58Rick Rubin?

  You can go the opposite way too, something you don't believe now that you used to believe when you were young, if you'd prefer.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  When I was younger, I really felt that everyone has the capacity and connection in them, you know, to pursue whatever their creative dreams are and that really that anyone could write. And while in essence, I still believe that's true, time has showed me that very, very few people will. And I hope that it's more as we all, you know, open ourselves with the years and then, you know, and the evolution of collective. But

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  I think that I was a little bit naive about how courageous people would be to withstand discomfort and to willingly evolve and change. And I've noticed over time that more often or most often, they will wait until not changing is the less comfortable option. And then they will, instead of being called, be pushed. I still hope for that to shift.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  I've just noticed that all the people I knew and here that had all these dreams and how many of them put them down and didn't pick them back up really surprised me, really surprised me.

• 1:30:27Rick Rubin?

  Anything else you want to talk about?

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's something that's been on the top of my mind for weeks. Want. Wanting.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Drew in my journal a picture to try to illustrate this because I'm really fascinated by it right now.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  It's like so many of us can get into the state of deeply, deeply wanting something, whether it's something to work out or a relationship or work, whatever. And I've noticed that something really peculiar happens when we are in a state of deep wanting. It almost creates this vortex or void of not having that becomes so strong that when an element of what we want or even the exact thing we want approaches, it almost gets boomeranged off. We almost push it away

• 1:31:31Speaker 01

  because we are so strongly in this vortex of not having, which is creating the feeling of want.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  And the more I sat with this and just thought of even the people around me who, you know, it's like they want X, Y, Z so badly. And it's like, well, the opportunities for such would be right here. It's like they're almost getting thwarted off. It's just fascinating to watch. And it didn't feel to me like self sabotage. It felt like it couldn't even get close enough to be self sabotage yet. It's almost just like getting pushed out of this, this void. And

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  You know, in the drawing, when I cross through the void of, you know, what gets us out of the void? And it's like that void is really neutralized by two things. One, realizing all the ways in which you do already have that thing. And number two, if you cannot come up with any ways in which you have had or do have it, stories of people you know or you don't know who do have it or did make it possible, or it was their reality. And I think a lot of the time, the people we think of as our muses are people who are more fully actualized in the element of ourselves that we are struggling to express.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  And so it's not them who we are really idolizing. It's actually the part of ourselves that wants to use them as a mirror to encourage it out. So it's been on my mind.

• 1:33:04Rick Rubin?

  It's the state of abundance instead of the state of lack. And you know, if there's something you really want, and when you finally give up, it's often what the time when it shows up.

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  And why? Because you've neutralized that vortex. Because you've moved out of not having into just being. And then in being, you already have. Yeah, it's really intriguing. And I think that, you know, when we're talking about the fixed pieces of our identities that get us stuck, you know, I am not talented. Well, just under that is, I want to be enough. I want talent. I want ability, skill. Right? And it's like, you're either going to be unconsciously collecting evidence that you are or aren't one of these things.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  And I think the brain is like a child in that you kind of have to give it a job. Kind of have to put it to work. It needs something to do. You need to tell it. I need you to collect all of the ways in which this could be possible. And I need you to be working on that 24/7. Because if you don't put it to work, it will kind of turn inward on you.

• 1:34:26Rick Rubin?

  So other than the one to three hours of sitting and writing that you do, would you say you're working all the time?

• 1:34:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  Because I think that I'm always working on my cheesy bit, myself as a human being. I really am, in every experience. And it's that that writes the book later.