E136 - Jillian Turecki: How To Find Love, Keep Love & Become Love

Relationship expert Jillian Turecki reveals how to overcome the blocks that ruin relationships and begin crafting your love life from within. Jillian shares her personal journey, detailing the pivotal moments of miscarriage and divorce that transformed her perspective on love and relationships. She emphasizes that love truly begins with oneself, urging listeners to self-source their wholeness before seeking it in others. As the conversation unfolds, we delve into the pitfalls of expectations and how they can undermine relationships, while also discussing the importance of mindful approaches to love. Jillian offers insights on how relationships act as mirrors, reflecting our inner selves and highlighting compatibility, especially during the often-glamorous honeymoon phase. Together, we demystify the concept of self-love, challenging societal misconceptions about love and relationships. We tackle tough questions like whether to break up or stay together, the dangers of falling for someone's potential, and identifying red flags, even those that may seem overly nice. Finally, we explore what men and women generally seek in relationships and the profound lessons she has learned about love, including the importance of making peace with our parents. This conversation is not just about finding the right partner; it’s a deep dive into understanding ourselves better, fostering healthier relationships, and ultimately creating the love life we desire. Sponsor: Convenient and affordable therapy with BetterHelp. Get started today and enjoy 10% off your first month: https://www.betterhelp.com/knowthyself André's Book Recommendations: https://www.knowthyself.one/books ___________ 0:00 Intro 1:10 Miscarriage & Divorce: The Turning Point that Changed Her Life 7:23 Love Begins With You 10:40 Self Sourcing Your Wholeness 14:55 Expectations Ruin Relationships 21:34 Finding the One & Surviving the Honeymoon Phase 27:38 Demystifying Self Love 30:37 Ad: BetterHelp 32:13 Our Culture Gets This Wrong About Love 37:24 Should You Break Up or Stay Together? 41:47 Don’t Fall in Love with Potential 45:40 Red Flags: Are They TOO Nice? 50:16 Cultivating Trust in Love & Life 56:48 What Men & Women Really Want (Generally) 1:02:17 Making Peace with Your Parents 1:08:08 The Biggest Lesson She’s Learned from Love 1:10:30 What It Means to Know Thyself 1:12:31 Conclusion ___________ Jillian Turecki is a relationship coach, teacher, podcaster, writer, and speaker who has devoted her life to helping people revolutionize their relationships with themselves. For over 20 years, Jillian has maintained a deep commitment to authenticity, compassion, and inner transformation as she follows her insatiable curiosity about what makes relationships thrive. Between Jillian’s podcast, “Jillian on Love,” her newsletter, “Love Weekly,” and her social media community, Jillian reaches millions of people who seek her actionable, compassionate, direct, and research-driven insight. As the founder of Jillian Turecki Coaching, Jillian has changed the lives of countless individuals around the world through her transformative workshops, courses, retreats, and one-on-one coaching sessions. Her forthcoming book is a groundbreaking look at love, partnership and self-love based on Jillian’s decades of experience and research. Book "It Begins With You": https://www.jillianturecki.com/book Website: https://www.jillianturecki.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jillianturecki/?hl=en ___________ Know Thyself Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/knowthyself/ Website: https://www.knowthyself.one Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJ4wglCWTJeWQC0exBalgKg Listen to all episodes on Audio: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4FSiemtvZrWesGtO2MqTZ4?si=d389c8dee8fa4026 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/know-thyself/id1633725927 André Duqum Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andreduqum/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The relationship we have with ourselves is the most important relationship we will ever have. The biggest misconception is I'll meet the one and then we are gonna have a great relationship. It's like, no. You could meet the one and you could screw it all up. This is what happens in relationships. We have so many expectations. And the one expectation that people don't really recognize is somehow this other person is responsible for my happiness. And that is happening all the time. There's two camps of thought. You have to completely love yourself in order to be in a healthy relationship, or it does not matter. You learn to love yourself while you're in a relationship. And I see it somewhere in the middle. But the greatest love is love that you feel safe with. You really shouldn't commit your heart to someone with whom you don't feel love.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  This feeling that we can't feel fulfilled unless we are in a relationship, that's a dangerous place to be. Fulfillment truly is an inside job. And finding meaning in life and purpose in life, that is something that truly begins with us.

• 1:06André Duqum?

  Jillian Turecki, thank you so much for being here.

• 1:08Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 1:10André Duqum?

  June 2, 2014, what happened?

• 1:15Speaker 00

  I woke up that morning to what would be basically an early miscarriage. And I made an appointment. My husband had already left for work. And I had to go to the gynecologist to confirm pregnancy and do things that you have to do when that's happening. And I called him or text him, just tell him what was happening and asked him if he would come with me. And he said, no, he was too busy. And then later that day, in the afternoon, he texts me and just said he's gonna stay at his parents' for a little while. And then I knew at that moment

• 2:00Speaker 00

  that he was fleeing the relationship. And so I called him, and it was a dramatic conversation. And he never came home again. And at that time, my mother was dying of terminal cancer and had about, I don't know, two months to live.

• 2:19Speaker 00

  A lot. That was a big day.

• 2:22André Duqum?

  Yeah, no, tough.

• 2:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:23André Duqum?

  And you know, you start out in your new book with that story, which really sets up the frame for the journey that you would then go on over the, you know, past decade now.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:36André Duqum?

  What do you see as that moment and that time as a turning point for your life? And the direction you shifted after that?

• 2:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I always say it was like sort of the day that I died in a way. And there was, I mean, for lack of a better way to describe it, almost like a rebirth. I mean, it was literally the day where my life just was like, okay, you were on one path and now you are completely on a different path. And it was abrupt and it was a change and everything, everything changed in my life in that moment. Typically, when a person experiences that sort of abrupt change, it is quite traumatic. It's a kind of a big deal. Something, in other words, typically something happens in a person's life that's out of their control, right?

• 3:24Speaker 00

  And that they can't change the circumstances. And because of that, that new path, you're kind of thrust it onto it, but you're reluctant, you're resistant, you don't want to be on it. But then your survival depends on walking that path and figuring it out. And so that's why when I think of that day and when I describe in the book, it's, I say it's the death of a relationship, but it was the death, it was the end of my life as I knew it and the beginning of a new chapter. And I had absolutely no idea, nothing, nothing to look for. I thought, you know, the future was not bright. It was just dark.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  But, um, you know, we are, we are designed to survive. So that's what I did and.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  And then I figured out a way to make it more than just survival, to make it actually really mean something. I felt called to do something else with my life. And when I describe it, I get concerned because I don't want to romanticize a person's life falling apart and whatnot. But there is something, when you can look back, you know, we can look back at very hard times and think, wow, well, now I understand why that happened. Yeah.

• 4:49André Duqum?

  Yeah, always hindsight is clear, looking back and in the moment, you know, death of a life feels like death.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  Literally.

• 4:57André Duqum?

  And oftentimes, people that go on to do some amazing things were challenged with incredibly hard situations to face, to overcome, to triumph. And I'm curious, looking back at that point now, with the past decade under your belt of coaching and writing and teaching and supporting so many people throughout their times of loss and finding a new connection and understanding what love is. It's put you and probably equipped you uniquely, unlike any other experience would. You have this capacity within you now because of the depth you've gone yourself, I'm sure. And so what would you say are the questions you started asking yourself after that moment of challenge? And what are some of those questions

• 5:39André Duqum?

  that we could be asking ourselves when we face that?

• 5:43Speaker 00

  Well, of course, in the beginning, there was this survival questions of like, why me? Why is this happening? But typically, when we ask ourselves those questions, the answers that we get are not exactly empowering. You know, whatever, you suck or, you know, God is punishing you, whatever it is. But as you start to kind of emerge a little bit from that intensity, one of the most important questions we can ask ourselves is, what could this mean?

• 6:14Speaker 00

  Like, could this mean something other than, you know, life sucks?

• 6:20Speaker 00

  What does this mean and what does life want from me? What do I want? What do I want? One of the hardest questions for a person to answer is, what do I want? Oftentimes, you ask someone, what do you want? And they're just like, um, I, you know, I don't know. So that is one of the most powerful questions you can ask yourself. What do I want?

• 6:43André Duqum?

  And who I think I am is different at different points in my life. That's going to inform what we think we want, right?

• 6:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:51André Duqum?

  And I can reliably see that we always will say we want something we believe we're worthy of. And so it's like, there are confines within what we say we want, you know, between subconscious limiting beliefs and self-worth.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  And what we think is possible.

• 7:10André Duqum?

  And I know a lot of your work is really supporting people stretched to see what they truly are worthy of and are deserving of. What would you say is the thesis and a kind of premise with your book? With like much of your work now? What do you boil it down to as the core of what you're trying to support people with?

• 7:27Speaker 00

  I think it's the title of the book that it begins with you. And that's not the same thing as the platitude that's out there of, you know, hi, the problem is me, or you're the problem. It's not about that. You could actually not really be the core problem, so to speak. It's that's in, in other words, that's not the lens that we should be looking at this through. It's, it's more, if I want something to change in my life, I have to create some changes to my thinking and to my choices. And that can be a heavy lift because changing our thinking means changing some of our beliefs.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  It's uncovering the things that have been sort of in our unconscious and bringing them into our conscious awareness. And then looking at it and challenging some of those beliefs, if necessary.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  And that most of the things that we want in life, the reason why we don't have them, not always, but a lot of times, especially when we talk about romantic love, is in some way, we are standing in our own way. And so I believe that the relationship we have with ourselves is the most important relationship we will ever have. And that's not to encourage just total individualism or not needing anyone. Your relationship with yourself still means you need people because we need people. But it really is the most important thing. And sometimes strengthening our relationship with ourselves means overcoming selfishness, overcoming things of the ego,

• 9:10Speaker 00

  and overcoming fear and all of that. So I really try to encourage people to have an understanding of who they are.

• 9:21André Duqum?

  What do you see as the predominant barrier that stop people from doing so?

• 9:26Speaker 00

  Of trying to understand who they are?

• 9:29Speaker 00

  Fear, stubbornness, which is usually cloaked in fear. It can be overwhelming.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  And you know, it's not like you shouldn't be looking inward all the time. You know, that's

• 9:43Speaker 00

  it's not all about you. Like, it begins with you, but it's not all about you. You don't want to be constantly self-reflecting. But you know, a lot of people, they, well, what's the point? You know, that's for wusses, whatever it is. It's just, it's belief system and it's usually fear. It's like, okay, so if I go there, what am I going to discover? And is that going to be too much for me to handle emotionally?

• 10:10André Duqum?

  Think like, life is so trippy, where we often project the things we want as only being capable of getting outside of ourself. Like, there's externalization of feelings that we really can only give ourself. And we can, of course, get in the mirrors through relationships and career and things. But in many ways, we truly want to become the love that we seek. And we seek it through many different means. And we want the feelings behind the things that we say we want. And so how much of your work do you see is bringing people back into realizing that they can actually self-source a lot of the things that they are so clinging externally for?

• 10:51Speaker 00

  Hugely. Look.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  There is something that romantic love, particularly in the early stages of romantic love, when the lust and the passion is high, that, you know, is uniquely, is unique, right? But, or and, I should say,

• 11:13Speaker 00

  this feeling that we can't feel fulfilled unless we have this person in our life. We can't feel fulfilled unless we are in a relationship. We can't, we can't source love. We can't source connection unless we're in a relationship. That's, that's a, that's a dangerous place to be because usually that leads to poor choices. It's also, it's not true. And fulfillment truly is an inside job. And finding meaning in life and purpose in life, that is something that truly begins with us.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  And so I have to help a lot of people recognize that, let's just say they meet someone. And let's just say this person has been alone for a long time. They haven't felt a connection with someone in a long time. And let's throw in a little bit of boredom and a little bit of like, oh, I don't know, like, you know, there's nothing in my day that's really captivating me or captivating my attention. Let's just throw all that into this person. Make it a little bit of a perfect storm. And then they meet someone and they feel that chemistry with them. What is triggered inside of them is aliveness. That aliveness that's been dormant for a long time because they've been waiting to feel this connection, because they're a little bit bored, because they haven't been doing things in their life

• 12:43Speaker 00

  that gives them sparks of joy or sparks of excitement, whatever it is. And then we think, this person, and it's an unconscious thought, but this person is my ticket out of the monotony of my life. And they are the reason why I feel so good. When really, they are just the trigger. They're the stimulus, really, that triggers inside of you, that dormant feeling. It's not really about them. Because first of all, they're a stranger. Maybe if it develops into a real relationship, they become someone who adds to that and really does enhance your life tremendously. But right now, they're just a stranger.

• 13:27Speaker 00

  And so I help a lot of people recognize that when they get all obsessive over someone who they barely know, that what's actually happening is for them to understand that they are something, that person is just the vehicle that has triggered something that actually exists inside of you already. And that maybe if you learn how to meet your needs more, maybe if you evaluate your life and do more things that kind of make you feel alive, maybe it's, you know, it's not going to be the exact same thing as that, but you can feel moments of oneness that has nothing to do with another person and a romantic partner. Then, then we can start to craft a different story for that person.

• 14:11André Duqum?

  It's really a persistent delusion.

• 14:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:14André Duqum?

  It's so enchanting. And of course, not just with romantic relationships, but, you know, so many different things we outsource our sense of joy. And I do think that there is a level of fulfillment that comes with alignment of what you feel like you're here to be doing in your career and, you know, being matched with a partner that is in alignment with your values. But there's kind of two routes, right? It's like first, we either discover before going to relationships that that delusion is in fact the delusion. Or we learn through the trials and tribulations in the relationship that we're putting our expectations of fulfillment of love solely in another person. And I'm just curious how much of the trife you see in relationships are stemming from.

• 14:58André Duqum?

  An overload of expectations.

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Oh, that's, that's pretty much one of the biggest things. And I, we're all guilty, you know, we're all guilty of, of having, um, I mean, you, you can't really go through life not having any expectations. I mean, you can try to, but we all have some expectations, but we have so many expectations in a relationship and lowered amount of appreciation. And the one expectation that people don't really recognize, and we're all guilty of this, is, you know, somehow this other person is responsible for my happiness.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  And I think that, you know, we can understand or wrap our heads around intellectually, like cognitively, we can be like, oh, no, no, I know that's not true. But this is what happens in relationships. We'll get frustrated with our partner, and of course, sometimes that's a legitimate frustration. Let's not forget that. But oftentimes, we'll get frustrated with our partner, and it's because they are not exactly how we want them to be in that moment. And what we're doing is projecting our expectations, our, our perfectionism, our stuff onto them. And then we see them as falling short, when really, the problem is not them.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  The problem is in our thinking and not actually appreciating, appreciating that person for who they are. And that is happening all the time.

• 16:24André Duqum?

  And the reality of how it happens all the time is very much so unconscious, right? Like, we're unaware to the degree in which our subconscious projections are happening. Um, we're just like looking through them. We're too close to our own bullshit in many ways.

• 16:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is why mindfulness and self-awareness is so important.

• 16:43André Duqum?

  What's that?

• 16:43Speaker 00

  I know, exactly.

• 16:44André Duqum?

  I know, for sure. So I'm curious how much you see, uh, like, for example, when people talk about, like, we go out and try to date our parents. And we, we look for what's familiar and that feels safe to us. Even if love showed up in a chaotic format when we were younger, it feels safer to us because it's familiar.

• 17:10André Duqum?

  Yeah. How do you navigate getting awareness and, and bringing mindfulness to

• 17:14Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 17:15André Duqum?

  people that are projecting a lot of that stuff?

• 17:17Speaker 00

  First, I want to say, because, um, it's important that I say this, not everyone does that.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  I know that there's a lot of talk about like, that's what we always do. Not everyone does that. So that's a certain pathology that does, that not everyone, not everyone is marrying their parent, you know, like, or marrying a representation. But many people do. And it's also one of the things that causes a lot of struggle in relationships and in couples, which is why it's important to address it.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  You know, I think it's more, there's two, two ways to look at it. One is, let's just say you're already in the marriage or you're already in the relationship. And you're realizing that you married some of your unfinished business from your childhood. Then it's just about bringing awareness to the couple and then helping each other manage your projections and communicating and sort of building a new story and healing together. I mean, that's really the goal. When it comes to dating, I think it's, well, let's just say it's problematic when you date the parent who, once again, you have unfinished business with, unresolved stuff with. And so then maybe you, you know, your father ignored you

• 18:35Speaker 00

  or your father was an alcoholic and ignored you or wasn't very nice to you. And then you're dating people who look, and their vibe is totally different. But guess what? You're like in that same familiar feeling dynamic with them. You know, learn, learn. You know, let's say you're single and looking. Learn about what works for you, what, what are some of the patterns that you have? And, and, and hopefully you learn and you wise up and you choose someone different. You'd say, oh, now I know what to look for. I don't want someone with whom I have to have this dynamic with. That's too painful. Okay, so what is it about this person? Well, maybe they have this character, this trait or that trait. And that's something that I really have to make,

• 19:20Speaker 00

  I have to promise myself that I'm not going to go for that. I'm going to go to for a very different kind of person who can offer me something very different in the relationship.

• 19:31Speaker 00

  It's a process.

• 19:32André Duqum?

  Yeah, and it also feels like it's inevitable that friction and tension will show up in relationship dynamics. Like, it's almost perfectly designed to bring up our stuff.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, oh, yeah. It is because it's where we feel most vulnerable. It's where we fear the loss of love and fear not being enough the most. And so that in and of itself is very triggering. And because love is not, it's a very, it's a funny thing. The greatest love is love that you feel safe with. And the paradox is that nothing is really safe about love. You can lose the person, the person could die, they're not obligated to keep loving you. So there's so much uncertainty that's built into being in a relationship.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  So that's very triggering.

• 20:22André Duqum?

  Yeah. How helpful do you feel like it is to come into relationships with the knowing that they are a mirror? Like, I think that invites the opportunity to view challenges as they arise as opportunities for growth.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Absolutely. I do really believe that when you see a relationship as an opportunity to grow and not just as an opportunity to get your needs met, that's a beautiful thing. But it's also important to note, sometimes the way in which you grow is to say no to certain people, you know, because they don't treat you well. But, um, yeah, it's always, look, when you have two people in a relationship who are willing to be like, oh, that really bothered me, let me think, is that me? Is that a me thing? Or is this something that I need to communicate with them about? That's, that's the needle mover. Most people are not operating like that in a relationship, but it really makes a huge, huge difference.

• 21:22André Duqum?

  Yeah, we don't often like to look at what our part is in play here.

• 21:25Speaker 00

  No, we don't. We just, our egos are very stubborn.

• 21:32André Duqum?

  What would you say then? Because there is this difference between character versus charm.

• 21:37Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 21:38André Duqum?

  And there is the infatuation with the parts of somebody's being that are flashy or very enchanting at the beginning.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:48André Duqum?

  But then there is the reality of what ingredients are actually necessary for the longevity of a relationship to be there. And what do you feel like those are? Because if we have the former, which is great to have, you know, the charm and the chemistry and all of that. But the deepening of the compatibility and like those alignment of values, those things that we really need to be asking ourselves and also in communication with somebody we're starting to date.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:15André Duqum?

  What are those most important questions and things we need to?

• 22:18Speaker 00

  You have to always consider a person's character. And look, we all have work to do when it comes to our character, you know? And by character, I mean our integrity and our willingness to confront ourselves or our kindness. But I believe that we should all be striving to be good people and we should be wanting someone who's good, a good person who's generous and who's kind.

• 22:44Speaker 00

  That doesn't mean, to your point, that not every kind person you're going to be attracted to. But what you're looking for in terms of longevity in a relationship is, let's just start with the basics. Do you feel relaxed around this person? And do they feel relaxed around you? And what I mean by that is you can really be yourself. You can just truly be yourself, your quirky, weird, eccentric, flawed, beautiful self.

• 23:10André Duqum?

  That's so different from the dating rhetoric that's like the game.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Oh, yes, I know, all of that.

• 23:16André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Which is, you know, BS.

• 23:20Speaker 00

  So if you're looking for long-term relationship, that is the first thing. Do we feel comfortable really just being when we are around each other? And then it's, do we agree on what a life well-lived is?

• 23:38Speaker 00

  That's the core compatibility that's really important. Because if you want long-term relationship, what's implied in that is that you want to create and build a life with someone. If you're gonna build a life with someone, you have to be in alignment in terms of what you're building and what that vision is. And so that's key. That's key.

• 24:05André Duqum?

  What are other distinguishing factors between lust and love?

• 24:09Speaker 00

  Well,

• 24:12Speaker 00

  lust happens when you barely know the person and you don't really know their character. And lust is just a feeling and love truly is also something that you do every day. It's showing up even when you're not in the mood. It's you're in pain, I'm listening. It's I wanna know you better. It's you matter so much to me that your needs are as important to me as my own. Lust has none of that. Lust is all about the projection of the fantasy and lots of feelings and emotions. And it's nothing about building

• 24:57Speaker 00

  or creating or deeper emotional intimacy.

• 25:01André Duqum?

  For those that really would love to attract the love in their life and they assert that's something that they're striving to go for right now at this phase,

• 25:13André Duqum?

  what do you see as the balance between the strategies to go and meet people and the apps and all the things versus focusing more so on the inner work to become a vibratory match to attract the love that you seek?

• 25:25Speaker 00

  I think it's a combination. I think it's a combination of things. I think that there is, of course, like, you know, if you want this amazing person with strong character who's a communicator, it's like you have to ask, okay, am I a good communicator? Or you can even just say, these are the things that I'm not great at. So it'd be great to have a partner who is good at this and, you know, maybe we complement each other. It's always gonna be a combination of the story that we have about love and relationships and about what we're capable of and then some strategy. And I think that people should use the apps if they're comfortable, but they have to use the apps, not to let the apps use them. And so they have to have some boundaries around that.

• 26:08Speaker 00

  And then I also believe in just getting out there and meeting people organically and expanding your circle. So the more people you meet, the more, the greater your chances are. It's like, oh, let me introduce you to this person. Or I think this would be a really cool person to know. And you just never, ever know. And so part of being that vibratory match is also being able to say to yourself, yeah, I'm open. I'm open to this. I'm open to this experience. I'm open to stepping outside my comfort zone and, and I know what I want.

• 26:40André Duqum?

  I think we're really fundamentally attracted to people who are confident within themselves and at ease and open within themselves. And a lot of us yearn also to arrive at that place. And your truth number four, which is you have to love yourself is, you know, is a common saying in the relationship scene, right? And it's probably the most Instagrammable, you know, hashtag of hashtag love yourself.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  Which is why I wanted to write that chapter to sort of demystify some of that. Yeah.

• 27:10André Duqum?

  So I would love for you to demystify a little bit and especially, you know, in the moments where it's hard to, like, you know, when you, you know, talked about your journey over 10 years ago, going through that part, you know, that point, I'm sure there was just many points where it was hard to, to love yourself.

• 27:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:26André Duqum?

  And I'm curious for you to walk us through the journey of starting to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and then what it actually looks like over years to develop that relationship with yourself.

• 27:36Speaker 00

  Well, first of all, when I think about self-love, my definition is self-acceptance. And I, I think of it through the frame of self-esteem, which is we hold ourselves in high regard in spite of the fact that we don't really, we have some ambivalence about some of our, our parts, right? And I also talk about self-esteem from the framework of the things that build up self-confidence is doing hard things.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  The people who only live a very safe life and never challenge themselves, it perpetuates the fear that they're not good enough. And so their self-esteem actually gets lower and lower because we cannot, we have to be challenged. We actually have to challenge ourselves. We have to climb the mountain, whatever that mountain is, and we have to do hard things. And then we can be proud of ourselves. It's like, if you think of a child, like, being potty trained for the first time, and they finally do it, and they feel proud of themselves. Like, that's, that's the building of self-esteem. Or, like, I grew up in New York City, so it's like the first time that I actually took the public transportation by myself, and then started doing that. That builds self-esteem.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  So we have to do hard things, but there's two camps of thought. You have to completely love yourself in order to be in a healthy relationship, or it does not matter. You learn to love yourself while you're in a relationship. And I see it somewhere in the middle, which is, no, you don't have to completely love. Like, you can struggle with certain parts of yourself. And you don't have to be completely whole. And you do learn to love yourself in relationship, but I've never known a person who was in a deeply unhealthy relationship, or was really, really deeply struggling in their love life, who didn't also struggle with their self-worth.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  So, we can't say, while we can't say that you have to completely be in love yourself and completely be healed to be in a relationship, we also can't say that it's irrelevant.

• 29:41André Duqum?

  Right, because if we don't have a degree of self-acceptance when meeting somebody, then we're, in many ways, attracting somebody through the lens of our own inadequacy, which then, of course, if both people are willing to grow, that can be a container for moving past that. But if you're also meeting somebody who is seeking that, and there is that kind of shadow or trauma bonding, or whatever that looks like.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Or you tolerate terrible behavior from someone.

• 30:07André Duqum?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've seen that, for sure. Also, just like, in the culture, I feel like I grew up in my, like, parents', parents', friends', where that's just sort of normalized in certain dynamics.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:19André Duqum?

  And we get very safe and comfortable in that, in that dynamic, and... Yeah, it takes real courage to break those change of generational,

• 30:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:28André Duqum?

  you know.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 30:30André Duqum?

  Cultural conditioning.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  And a lot of that is, yeah, there is a lot of cultural conditioning in that, for sure.

• 30:37André Duqum?

  Hey, guys. Speaking of relationships, this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. I feel like we always hear about red flags in relationships, but what about green flags? Challenges in relationships are inevitable, and if choosing a life partner is one of the most important decisions we're ever gonna make, which I definitely feel like it is, then taking the time to reflect on the values and qualities that truly matter is essential, not to just avoid conflict, but to build a partnership where you work as a team to navigate whatever comes your way. For me, a few of my biggest values and green flags are self-awareness, personal responsibility, and play. Maybe for you,

• 31:20André Duqum?

  it's someone's ability to truly listen, their sense of adventure, or their nurturing presence. Just as important as knowing what we're looking for, though, is doing the inner work to become a vibratory match for the love we want to attract in the first place. And therapy can be a massive support in that process of healing, developing clarity, and refining our values in life. BetterHelp makes therapy accessible and flexible. It's fully online and connects you with a network of over 30,000 credentialed therapists. You can switch therapists at any time at no extra cost, making it easy to find the right fit. Discover your relationship with green flags with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/knowthyself

• 32:04André Duqum?

  today and get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, dot com slash know thyself. Back to the show.

• 32:14André Duqum?

  What is a hot take or strongly held belief you have around what love means in this culture? And dating and love means in this culture that you think is just not true?

• 32:27Speaker 00

  Oh, God, that love is just a feeling. That love is just what romanticism says it is, that you're gonna meet someone and they're gonna be able to read your mind and they're gonna be perfect and you're gonna be perfect for each other and you're gonna be soulmates. And you're never really gonna run into problems because when you're with the right person, they're gonna be able to finish your sentences. That's, that's it. That's, that is what, that is the main thing that's corroding our understanding of love.

• 32:57André Duqum?

  And, you know, I think we all love a good Disney movie once in a while.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  I mean, I love, I love a rom-com. And I'm a romantic at heart, but I also have to keep some of that in check.

• 33:06André Duqum?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying is like, th- those stories, which are, you know, great and enchanting, they also plant seeds throughout the conscious mind and subconscious mind of humanity and, and culture that there is a soulmate. There is like someone that you find and it's just the right person.

• 33:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:22André Duqum?

  Instead of thinking we find the right person, you kind of forge it, you know? And I would love for you to dissect that a little bit of thinking that we have a soulmate that's the one right person that we're going to find in our life versus we build that.

• 33:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. So everyone's unconscious seeks oneness.

• 33:44Speaker 00

  And everyone's unconscious seeks wholeness, to feel whole.

• 33:48André Duqum?

  I would say also largely because we intuit at the deepest level that we are one.

• 33:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay, I like that, absolutely.

• 33:56André Duqum?

  Yeah, it's great.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  Absolutely, but we forget.

• 33:59André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 34:01Speaker 00

  And we wanna feel that and we can, and we feel that in getting quiet, we can feel that in nature. Some of us can feel that moment of oneness.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  When we listen to our favorite music or we're dancing, we have moments of that. And so when we meet someone and we feel very connected to them, we are experiencing that feeling of oneness. And then we think, okay, this person is the one.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  But I, there is no one person out there for you. I mean, there is the one, like I said in the book, and I really believe this. There's the one who you met when you were 16. There was the one who maybe you later married and then divorced. I mean, couldn't they all have been in some way soulmates and important people? I mean, and you can meet the one and, you know, the biggest misconception is I'll meet the one and then we are gonna have a great relationship. It's like, no. You could meet the one and you could screw it all up 'cause you didn't do any work on yourself.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  And so this idea that someone is gonna come and complete us, I really believe, why be in a romantic relationship if it's not making your life better? If it's not this companion and this sounding board and someone who believes in you and can hold your hand as you fight your own battles?

• 35:27Speaker 00

  Why, what's the point, you know, unless? Because the point is not sex, because you can just have, you don't have to have a relationship to have sex. So I do believe that there is something special, potentially special to a relationship. But it's a very dangerous romanticized thought that when we meet this one person, all our problems are gonna go away and that everything is gonna be smooth. It shouldn't be a crazy ride, but you're gonna have to do work. And behind every great couple are a lot of difficult conversations,

• 36:08Speaker 00

  a lot of tears and a lot of patience and a lot of biting your one's own tongue.

• 36:19André Duqum?

  I like that idea that... You know, girlfriend I had at seventeen and the one I had at twenty-four, they weren't not the right one. They were the right one for the time of my life that I was in, in my own stage of development.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:33André Duqum?

  And if I were to meet the person I'm gonna end up with probably at sixteen, I don't think we'd probably, who knows, it probably wouldn't drive the same.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 36:42André Duqum?

  Yeah. So I think that is inviting a sense of, uh, just like life's timing has a way of bringing those relationships and dynamics in when we're ready for them.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:53André Duqum?

  Do you have couples that you look up to that have been together for forty, fifty plus years?

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have couples, friends who have been together for twenty years. Um, and then the forty, fifty years would obviously have to be like their parents, grandparents, um, and I have known them, but I have close friendships with people who have been together for, um,

• 37:20Speaker 00

  actually longer, you know, longer, twenty-five years even.

• 37:25André Duqum?

  I'm curious, you know, from that vantage point, when do you decide when inevitable difficulties arise in relationships and you're not sure? And you're at the brink of, you know, letting go and the death of the dynamic of how it has been, not, not sure exactly in the uncertainty of what will take form after that. At what point is, is it really meant to be let go of the relationship dynamic? Or, um, is it meant to, you know, endure a double down, figure it out?

• 37:59Speaker 00

  It's very, very difficult, um, to, it's a million dollar question. I think, um, I think that if you're committed to someone and as long as there isn't, it's, you're not absolutely miserable and, um, or there isn't mistreatment of any sort. I think you have to fight for your relationship and recognize that, um, That if you want to be with someone over decades, that you are going to have many marriages within that marriage and that there is an opportunity for that. And that you have to learn how to love and to grow and to grow together and to really, and to really do that and to weather the storms together. But when is it time to just call it?

• 38:44Speaker 00

  I mean, I, so I believe that. I also believe that divorce and breaking up is a human right. So I, um, I don't, if you're absolutely miserable, if you can't stand each other, um,

• 38:58Speaker 00

  don't stay together. Uh, or you're just, you're not in love anymore or the, the relationship has changed form. My only thing is,

• 39:10Speaker 00

  if you want, if you need to walk away and get out of it, fine, but you better do some self reflecting after that. Because it wasn't, it's rarely that a relationship didn't work out because you're just not the right match. Didn't work out because there's some things that you maybe have to self reflect on.

• 39:30André Duqum?

  It invites the perspective to truly know and reflect on the reason why you're leaving a relationship. And if it's simply because a lack of willingness to look at your own stuff, then it's just going to show up in the next dynamic.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Very well said and very true.

• 39:45André Duqum?

  But then there's, I guess, fundamental misalignment and, and you believe people can just genuinely just grow in different directions?

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Yes, they can.

• 39:52André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  And sometimes people grow in different directions because they have not been nurturing the relationship enough. And sometimes they grow in different directions because life is long and they've been together a long time. Maybe they started when they were young and they changed a lot.

• 40:09Speaker 00

  These things happen.

• 40:13André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think there's part of us that almost expects or hopes that our relation, our partner is not going to change, like from who we've met. And it feels like the biggest illusion because that's the only thing we ever do.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  It's the only thing we ever do. And some, exactly. And some people will say, well, they're not changing enough. It's like, well, well, they're just not changing in accordance with how you want them to change. And look, maybe what is bothering you about your partner is super legitimate and valid, but you can't change them. And you can't change them. You know, some people are slow changers, some people are fast changers. And if you can't be in the relationship and accept each other, I mean, look, this all boils down also to one's belief system around partnership and marriage and commitment. Is your belief system that, you know, I'm supposed to feel romantically in love with this person every single day?

• 41:08Speaker 00

  Or do I understand that love is also a choice? And that sometimes I'm not going to feel all that passion, but I'm still passionate about keeping this relationship intact? Is your belief system that, okay, the passion is waning a little bit? Usually when the passion wanes, it's because the couple is a little bored and they're not doing enough fun things together. Because we need a little bit of dopamine, we need a little bit of cortisol, producing activities that we do together to ignite the chemistry and the spark again. You know, so it's just your level of what is your belief system around commitment?

• 41:44André Duqum?

  I think in this, like discerning between how long one stays in a relationship, whether they want to embark on that journey with somebody, we can have this over romanticization of potential. And like, and that's great to hold the potential of who somebody can be, but almost the expectation of it is what sucks the energy from the dynamic versus admitting the current patterns that somebody has. And of course, if somebody's willing to grow, like if somebody has willingness to change and grow, and like that is a core value and pillar between both of you, then that is probably one of the most important things. But what do you think about, yeah, that falling in love with potential over the pattern?

• 42:28Speaker 00

  Look, I really believe that, you know, it's a beautiful thing to see the potential in someone and to see them as, I mean, look, there's been, there's lots of stories of older women, like in their seventies who said, you know, I've had many, many, I would say, like six conversations with women who said, you know, I met my husband and he was poor, like he had nothing, but I knew that he was like really meant for something and I really wanted to be the person behind that. Now, you know, that happened. So seeing potential is an amazing thing. And I think, because I use that example because I think women fall into that trap more of like falling in love with potential.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  So it's a beautiful thing to see someone's potential. But it's also a dangerous thing. Oh, I see what he could be, but what's actually really in front of me is a train wreck. And I'm not, I don't want to see that. Instead, I want to fix him, train him, change him, wait for him to change, be the inspiration for his change, and be a martyr in the relationship and a total codependent that does not focus at all on me, just only focuses on him or her dysfunction. And then I'm going to be incredibly unhappy. And guess what? They're going to be incredibly unhappy too, because no one wants to be in a relationship with someone who's trying to change them.

• 43:48André Duqum?

  Mic drop.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  Mic drop. No one.

• 43:52André Duqum?

  Facts.

• 43:52Speaker 00

  Facts, yeah.

• 43:53André Duqum?

  Yeah, that's good. That's good stuff.

• 43:58André Duqum?

  Yeah, I think it's just such an insidious like thing too, because we don't realize we're doing it. Oftentimes, like, we don't see how we're getting into a dynamic with the hope of what something might be, you know? And I feel like it's natural and it's, it's become normalized too, to try to have a savior complex or wanting to fix somebody.

• 44:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 44:19André Duqum?

  It seems really noble, but it's also just reinforcing our own sense of inadequacy and feeling like we need to be the fixer.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  Yes. Or the, or the inspiration for them fixing themselves, whatever it is. Yeah, we have to be the fixer.

• 44:35Speaker 00

  It's exhausting.

• 44:36André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 44:38André Duqum?

  Do you think that the, the best thing that we can truly do if we want to inspire change is to be it ourself? Would you say that?

• 44:45Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And then also, what I would add to that is let them be. Let them be who they are, accept them for who they are. And then maybe, not a guarantee, but maybe, once you take the pressure off them, they will find their way. Maybe, but they are for sure not going to do whatever it is that you want them to do because you want them to do it. That, because most people, what happens is they can sense that. And what we do, whether we're conscious of it or not, we dig our heels into the ground because we're like, nope, I'm not going to be controlled. I'm an autonomous being. They can't tell me what to do, even if it's not conscious, even if they know that what the person is wanting them to change about themselves is something that they really

• 45:30Speaker 00

  need. The fact that it like, it's coming from them and not coming from themselves will make people very resistant. Happens, I see it all the time.

• 45:40André Duqum?

  When meeting somebody when in the courting phase, what are some red flags that you wouldn't presume or maybe expect or perceive are red flags in the moment?

• 45:51Speaker 00

  In the courting stage, well, I think a big, a big one that you have to be sort of aware of is someone just saying, I love you right away. But then again, I know someone in a great marriage and he's like, I told her I loved her like a week in. He's like, I'm a crazy red flag. You just never know. But I think someone who, well, first of all, someone who is not responsive to you, they're not responding to your texts, they're not actually investing in you and seeming very interested, you kind of feel like, oh, I'm kind of feel like I'm an option right now or an afterthought. That's a red flag. And also just how they treat people always, you have to pay attention.

• 46:35André Duqum?

  Yeah, and it feels like the more you refine your capacity to listen, you can see where certain behaviors are actually coming from. And one that comes to mind is like being nice versus being kind.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:47André Duqum?

  Like being nice appears like it's a nice, it's a kind gesture, but in reality, it can actually be quite manipulative.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:53André Duqum?

  Versus kindness is like genuine and from the heart.

• 46:56Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 46:57André Duqum?

  And I'm just curious what you think about that because yeah, niceness can often be that behavioral compensation for various fears, you know?

• 47:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. So there's two ways I think of it. One is, I think that we have to be careful not to demonize niceness, like, you know, because especially if you've been with someone who's a real son of a, you know, and like, so.

• 47:20André Duqum?

  Definitely better.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Nice is a breath of fresh air. But if we're gonna like pathologize a little bit, there's an amazing book called No More Mr. Nice Guy. And the archetype of the nice guy is the pleaser, who is not being nice because he's a good person necessarily. He's being nice because he's so disconnected from himself because he's trying to be not like his mean dad. That's typically the pathology. And so what happens is that, yeah, he'll do what you want. He never expresses his needs. And so he actually registers as very unsafe because we need to feel like we are dealing with another autonomous being.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  Like, that kind of boundary actually makes women in particular feel safe. And also, you know, if the person who's constantly pleasing and never actually saying what it is that he wants or whatever she wants, once you really piss them off, then there's a rage that comes from them that is unbelievable. And so kindness is coming from someone being a good person, like a good man who's just generous, because that is who he is. And that's part of his value system. But he's not afraid to say no, and he's not afraid to say that doesn't work for me.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  And that feels good. No woman really wants a partner who she can actually manipulate. You know, like, she may want that in the short term, but in the long term, then she loses respect and feels like, I can't trust this person.

• 49:03André Duqum?

  I was driving with a friend a while back, and I think this is quite common with Canadians, actually.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  Canadians are very nice.

• 49:13André Duqum?

  Not to over-pathologize, and I think there is just a cultural component, for sure. But he is a very genuinely kind spirit. But I saw his tendency to always filter his truth and authenticity with just the cover of niceness.

• 49:31Speaker 00

  Which girls do too, a lot of women do too, yeah.

• 49:33André Duqum?

  Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. And It's just, it's just, uh, we crave authenticity.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:40André Duqum?

  And there is a barrier there between authenticity. And I love even more so the individuals who are maybe a bit more crass and, you know, just straight to the point.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:49André Duqum?

  You know, um, than, yeah, than the ones that need to kind of coat things because it almost, it almost robs you of the respect that you deserve in dynamics and communication to be truthful.

• 50:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's also, it can be hard because you're thinking, is that really how you feel or are you just telling me something that I want to hear?

• 50:10André Duqum?

  Right.

• 50:10Speaker 00

  And that, that creates a problem.

• 50:12André Duqum?

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:12Speaker 00

  When you're starting to doubt that in someone, because it's trust.

• 50:15André Duqum?

  Yeah, trust is a big thing in, in dynamics.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  It's the most important thing.

• 50:20André Duqum?

  Where I want to take it first is actually, how important and pivotal do you think the trust we have ourselves and with life informs the trust we have with another partner?

• 50:29Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 50:30André Duqum?

  Because we could be in a relationship where we feel very uncertain or not sure if there's going to be longevity in the connection or if they might leave us or whatever. And I find if somebody has a deeper trust of like life's intelligence with a capital I, you know, that, that things will ultimately work out and that actually life is inherently uncertain.

• 50:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 50:51André Duqum?

  It breeds some spaciousness, which reduces the clinging, which often actually pushes away.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  Yes, so this is a very layered topic. It's an important one. So I think what you're describing is someone who maybe has, is very clings to certainty. And, um, when this person sort of has a spiritual understanding and letting go of like, everything is uncertain and, and, and I will be okay, I know how to navigate that. It's the trust in being able to navigate the uncertainty. Um, there's also added to that is...

• 51:33Speaker 00

  I get into a relationship and I just don't trust men. Or I don't trust women. I think all men cheat, or I think all women cheat. And then I'm in a relationship with someone and it's very hard. Like, that's my issue. That's my issue, is that I don't... I've been hurt so badly in the past. So how do we address that? Well, one school of thought is, well, you know, that's her problem. Uh huh, you know, or that's his problem. And, you know, he's got to work it out. That's the highly independent, individualistic way of thinking about it.

• 52:04Speaker 00

  But, you know, because most things are not binary and most things live in the gray area, it's, it's like, okay. Can she take responsibility for that? And also can her partner develop a sensitivity to the fact that she has had a lot of betrayal in the past? And make it, um, really, and reassure her and be really transparent with her and be sensitive around that? While at the same time, she's also working on that in herself.

• 52:34Speaker 00

  Does that answer your question?

• 52:35André Duqum?

  Yeah, well, yeah.

• 52:36Speaker 00

  I mean, I know, maybe not directly, but something that I wanted to add

• 52:38André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 00

  to the whole topic of trust.

• 52:40André Duqum?

  Do you think that there is a solid, like, a significant minority of women that have a subconscious anger towards men? Because of the betrayal in their past?

• 52:50Speaker 00

  Oh, I think there's a gender war right now that's happening that's unbelievable. And it's happening all over social media. Well, that's because women do this, and that's because men do that. And it's, it's, it's terrible to see. It's not good. Not good at all. I mean, I'm seeing gender wars all the time in comments, not necessarily... Sometimes I see it a little bit in my comments, but I see it a lot in other people's comments because I look and I'm curious. But there's a lot of like, see, that's because he did this, and all men are that, and all women are that, and, you know? And I kind of chuckle, because when I see people make a comment about that, it's like, you know, I almost, I feel compassionate towards them because... They don't realize that that's a belief that's actually what is getting in the way of them having a healthy relationship.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  And so I see it all the time. So, yes, I do think that there's a lot of that going on. And there are a lot of people who are carrying just that betrayal trauma of just being hurt in the past. And that's why I really like to help people reframe it. I mean, look, the way that my ex-husband broke up with me was wrong by anyone's standard. And abandoning and a betrayal and just a terrible thing to do to another person. So we can, we understand that logically. But the story that I have about it now is so I can, I can say that. I don't feel any emotion behind it. I process it, I'm so over it.

• 54:19Speaker 00

  But I can say that and, and, and, and, and say that objectively because it's important for me to recognize that that's not good behavior. Because otherwise I then I let it happen again if I don't recognize it. But I don't live with this extreme distrust and fear that someone's going to do that to me again. Because I understand that there was so much more to that story. And I would not be sitting here today had that, had that never happened. So it's also about investigating the stories that we have around the pain that we've had in the past.

• 54:55André Duqum?

  Developing deeper trust with life and

• 54:58Speaker 00

  Deeper trust with life, exactly. So I think that goes full circle to your question about trusting life and life is uncertain. It's like, okay, I don't want to go through that again. But I also understand the deeper meaning of it. And I sort of trust in sort of whatever mysterious life force that's out there that made it so that I'm sitting here today.

• 55:19André Duqum?

  Would you articulate it that there are those blessings in disguises where sometimes losing the love we have makes space for deeper love that we deserve?

• 55:27Speaker 00

  Absolutely, I do believe that. I believe that we, nothing means anything other than the meaning we give it. And so I think that that's a great way to look at things. And I think that that's, that feels very true to me.

• 55:38André Duqum?

  Is that the way you choose to look at things?

• 55:40Speaker 00

  That is the way that I choose to look at things. And it's also my belief, it's become my belief. I do believe that

• 55:47Speaker 00

  That greater things can happen. And sometimes we do lose something and it opens one door. I do believe in one door closes, another door opens. I believe that to be a reality of life.

• 56:00André Duqum?

  It hits different when it comes from somebody who lives it, you know, and has gone through the hardships of life versus, again, something that intellectually sounds tantalizing.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, exactly.

• 56:11André Duqum?

  Yeah. I want to get your perspective on a little bit more of that gender stuff. You know, we both see online, but it shows up. You know, I think of this kind of idea of we have relational karma, which is like from our parents and our childhood development. We have psychological wounds there within pertaining to both gender dynamics in particular. And then we also have like relational Dharma, which is the aspirational directions that we want to go and where we're shifting to.

• 56:42André Duqum?

  Focusing on the karma side of things first and the trauma that we project so unconsciously often. I'm curious, what as a man, and then from a perspective of a woman, what as a man can we do that you really feel as a woman brings a sense of safety and assurance? And that you truly think that is not addressed or brought is ready this day and age?

• 57:11Speaker 00

  Presence. I think that what men need to do is just have more presence with her. I think that that's what we need is, look, a woman who's secure in herself doesn't need her man's attention 24/7. But when we are hanging out and we are together

• 57:31Speaker 00

  and if we have something that we need to get off our chest, not necessarily about the other, about him, but just something that we're emoting.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  If, when he can just be fully present and make it known through his body language and even through his words, that she can, that she can rely on him to just listen to her feelings, that's huge. And that is huge. You know, women, in general, we have just a very.

• 58:09Speaker 00

  Complicated emotional body, emotional way of being. And we have, we just feel things. And I think that most of that is our hormonal system. It's just very different. And then the fluctuations of our hormonal system is different than a man. And so it's when we can feel like, oh, you are not being distracted, or you can just be really present with me, that's huge. To tell you, like, this has happened, happened a while, but there have been times where I've been on dates where I'm talking to the guy and I can tell he's distracted.

• 58:51Speaker 00

  Now, when I think back, I'm thinking, is he just in his head, thinking about what his response is? Is he just like in his head? But I remember the feeling of just feeling like a dagger, like in my body, like that is the worst feeling ever. And I'm just like, I'm done with you, you know? I'm not going on another date with you. And so I think that gender aside, what we can all do, where we can all improve is not being so self-focused when we're communicating with someone and being more of the other self-focus. Like, what is this person trying to say? How can I understand this person more? And what does this person actually need from me in this moment?

• 59:35André Duqum?

  Yeah, it just seems like a device across the board for all, all communications.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I will say that, you know, what women really need to feel safe and to feel seen is, is like, you know, a man who's just like, you can, you can unravel with me. Like, you can, you know, like, you don't have to like filter. You don't have to be perfect. That's a keeper.

• 59:56André Duqum?

  Yeah, that's great. What do you think on the flip side?

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  Uh, women, I think, and you can verify this for me. I think that, um, women who date men really underestimate how much he needs reassurance and to feel like he is enough. It's not just her. And part of what's really gonna make him feel enough is to feel like he is adding value to her life. And, um, you know, I think what men need to learn is that he's actually not responsible for our happiness. But, but, but our, but what women need to learn is that, yes, that's true. And can you also, um, be compassionate towards that, that heavy burden that he carries on his shoulders

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  that, that he's making you happy?

• 1:00:46André Duqum?

  For sure, yeah, I think.

• 1:00:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49André Duqum?

  Like, men, we wanna be useful.

• 1:00:51Speaker 00

  Useful, yeah, very useful. Yeah, very, very useful, yeah.

• 1:00:55André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  That's why you always wanna fix when there's a problem.

• 1:00:58André Duqum?

  Right.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  But you're gonna be way more useful when sometimes you can just say, do you want me to try to fix this? Or do you just want me to listen?

• 1:01:06André Duqum?

  Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like it's, it's usually the, the latter, you know?

• 1:01:12Speaker 00

  Usually the latter. And then afterwards, when she feels hurt, then maybe we can.

• 1:01:16André Duqum?

  Right.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  She's more open to, um, problem solving.

• 1:01:19André Duqum?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think another thing too is, and I think every, of course, everyone's different, but there's definitely a level of autonomy and space that also men sometimes crave that often from the female perspective seems like, uh.

• 1:01:33Speaker 00

  Threatening.

• 1:01:34André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, freedom and all that, yes, yeah. Well, that's why I try to, you know, help women, especially women who are looking for a relationship or just obsessing over the lack of love in their life. I think that women would actually do very well to, to value their freedom a little bit more.

• 1:01:50André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  Balance it out a little bit. And I think that men, um, one of their things that they need to work on is that, you know,

• 1:02:03Speaker 00

  having great love in your life is actually just gonna make everything better, you know?

• 1:02:10André Duqum?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  Including your career.

• 1:02:12André Duqum?

  Yeah. What's a big truth that you feel like we haven't touched on today that would be important?

• 1:02:16Speaker 00

  Well, the last one, you have to make peace with your parents. That was the biggest one, and I think really intense. And um, I wrote it because my greatest work has been um, trying to heal my relationship with my father, who passed when I was writing this chapter, actually. And um, it's been my greatest, like, life's journey is my navigating my very challenging relationship with my father and kind of growing out of that. And so I felt um, I felt uniquely qualified to write this chapter. And so it wasn't just based on my professional experience, but something that I had to go through myself.

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  And I definitely say, you know, if you've been horribly molested or abused in some way, this sort of doesn't apply. You know, it's not about making peace. And also, you can have a great relationship with your parents. Sometimes making peace with your parents is freeing yourself from the expectation that you have to take a certain path in life because that is what they wanted. And actually allowing yourself to beat to your own drum and to do and take the path that you know that you were meant to take, even if it could potentially disappoint your parents. That's making peace with your parents. Making peace with your parents is also,

• 1:03:40Speaker 00

  it's making peace with the story that you have with this parent. That is controlling your life. And so it's recognizing the control that it might be having on your life, and then reexamining and reinvestigating the story. It is learning how to relate to your parent as an adult versus through the lens of your younger self. And so it's all of that. And it's very important because our adult romantic relationships will reflect our unfinished business with our parents. And it doesn't have to be perfect, but it's a very important part of, it's a very important truth that will change your life about love.

• 1:04:22André Duqum?

  Was there a moment when you had a shift of just viewing your parents as, they're my mom and dad versus they're actually a human being person that has their own path?

• 1:04:34Speaker 00

  I think, I don't remember the exact moment, but I think one of the most profound experiences, and I'd love to know your thoughts on this, of being a human being and growing up is the grief that comes with recognizing that your parent is just another person and that they're not just your parent. There's great freedom in that, but there's also a grieving process because you're grieving your childhood, you're grieving maybe the childhood that you never had. You're grieving that dynamic of, you know, perfect mom or dad coming in and just sort of like making you safe. So there's a lot of grieving in that. And, but I do believe that our greatest spiritual task in life

• 1:05:18Speaker 00

  is to somehow work or fix or heal our relationship with our parents. And it's very, it can be very, very difficult. And sometimes, like I said, it's just, for some people, that healing is, now I know that what, if it was a very extreme situation, now I know that what they did to me was not because I'm not good. It's because of them. And that's, that's making peace.

• 1:05:49André Duqum?

  It's a trip to realize it because we've been so like under the assumption that they're just our parents. And I remember having this conversation with Matt Kahn on the podcast. And he talked about his experience of really kind of collapsing the blame and shame put towards his parents and how he got to the place energetically where he saw his father as his brother and his mother as his sister.

• 1:06:17Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:06:18André Duqum?

  And how we're all having our own individual, human, spiritual experience amongst a collective. And it just breeds so much more compassion and also discharges so much of the tension we have and blame and just realize that, as the saying goes, hurt people hurt people. And there is just pain inducing more pain in unconscious ways. And it invites us to be able to be the person in our bloodline that breaks that chain.

• 1:06:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you know what? Yes, and just we really truly do what we can with the tools, with the emotional tools that we have. We just do. And that's how you also move on from a breakup and a hard breakup where you feel hurt. You just, you don't have to necessarily forgive. You just have to accept and let go and then maybe forgiveness will find you.

• 1:07:09André Duqum?

  Do you feel like you've made your own way through forgiveness, through those difficult things in your life? Do you feel like you're, do you still have things to let go of or forgive on that side of things?

• 1:07:20Speaker 00

  Um, sure, I'm sure there's just a little bit of residual for sure. But I do feel like I'm much closer to that forgiveness. And by that, what I mean is, you know, forgiveness is a funny thing. For me, I think of it more as I'm forgetting.

• 1:07:41Speaker 00

  And I know there's this, that there's a saying, you know, you can forgive but never forget. For me, it's almost the reverse. It's like, when I forget, when the story does not feel, when the story is not in my mind all the time, when it doesn't have a grip on me, then I kind of start to forgive because I just don't care as much. I don't care so much about the story. I don't care so much about it. And so I let go. And so that's more my process.

• 1:08:08André Duqum?

  What's the biggest lesson for you personally, if you're, if you're open to sharing as it relates to love right now in life for you?

• 1:08:16Speaker 00

  The biggest lesson, there's so many.

• 1:08:23Speaker 00

  That, you know, I think one of the biggest lessons that I ever learned about love is that ultimately you need someone in your corner. That's the most important thing. Like, I have, you know, friends and family members who are in marriages where I'm like, ugh. They're very content, so I'm okay because they're content. But when I think about, I'm like, I would never want to be in that marriage, or I would never want that person, they're so annoying. But what I've seen is that they are there for each other. Like, when the crap hits the fan, like, they are there for each other. And I realize that that's really what's most important. That, um,

• 1:09:00Speaker 00

  life, life can be long, it can be hard, and you really, to have a partner who's there for you when things get hard and you're there for each other, that that, that that's really the most important thing. And I never really understood that, you know, years ago. I didn't realize that being, I wanted that, I craved that, but I didn't understand it as that being like, really the most important thing and that you really shouldn't commit your heart or your life or your time or your energy to someone who, with whom you don't feel that with.

• 1:09:38André Duqum?

  Choosing a life partner is perhaps the most important decision we will have for the rest of our life, you know, who we're going to spend the most time with, who will be a witness to our life, who we decide we want to give and support throughout our life. And challenge is going to be inevitable. And I remember, you know, talking with Mark Manson, he was like, it depends just what shit sandwich do you want to eat, you know?

• 1:10:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's a point. He's a point.

• 1:10:05André Duqum?

  There's going to be challenge either way. And of course, there's going to be beauty and love and play and of course, the other way as well. It's just what fundamental position do you want to orient yourself towards in life?

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  Exactly. And that's the same thing. It's also, what problems can you live with and what problems can you not live with? Because everyone comes to the table with problems. So just decide what are the ones you can live with and know the ones that you can't.

• 1:10:31André Duqum?

  What does it mean to know thyself?

• 1:10:35Speaker 00

  What does it mean to know thyself?

• 1:10:41Speaker 00

  Well, I think when you know thyself, you can actually be thyself. It's very hard to be thyself if you don't know thyself. I think to know thyself is to, is to know your values, to know the beliefs that you have that are sort of dictating your life. And to understand how you see the world, because how you see the world is how you operate in the world. And so, and you can change that. You really can change that. But you can't know yourself until you understand the filter through which you are seeing the world.

• 1:11:22André Duqum?

  As you have been being thyself, that's such a funny sentence to say.

• 1:11:25Speaker 00

  It is.

• 1:11:26André Duqum?

  Last note, as we start to wrap up here, what is your, what is your hope and your wish with your book, with your work that you truly wish to like leave on this planet?

• 1:11:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. I really hope for people to be kinder to themselves and to recognize that, and just to be able to have healthier relationships. I mean, that's really... I've had healthy relationships and I've had ones that were not. And so I understand the power in both. And I understand that being in an unhealthy dynamic, truly unhealthy, will take years off your life. It literally physically makes you unwell. And then when you are in stable relationships, even if they're friendships, whatever they are, they are the things that give us courage. And so I really, that's what I want to leave behind is people just being able to cultivate

• 1:12:21Speaker 00

  that within themselves and others.

• 1:12:25André Duqum?

  Well said. It's been such a pleasure to connect with you.

• 1:12:27Speaker 00

  Oh, me too.

• 1:12:28André Duqum?

  And have you on the podcast. And yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. And we'll leave links for where people can get connected with your work and your book and everything down below. And yeah, that's all.

• 1:12:39Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for having me. It was a great conversation. Lots of fun.

• 1:12:42André Duqum?

  I loved it, yeah.

• 1:12:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:12:43André Duqum?

  Great. More convos in the future. Everybody, thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the Know thyself Podcast. Until next week, be well.