KHC 168 - Greg Poole

Greg Poole - a prominent figure in the archery and bowhunting community, best known as the founder, owner, and host of BowJunky Media. Greg’s a longtime professional archer who has competed at high levels for many years. Beyond competing, he's an industry insider with deep experience working in (and continuing to engage with) the archery world, covering everything from equipment, competitive shooting formats (like 3D, target, and field archery), to bowhunting ethics, gear optimization, and the business side of the sport. Join Cam and Greg for a deep dive into the world of competitive archery, bowhunting, modern hunting industry in 2026, controversy surrounding “speed bows”, up-and-coming names in the industry and more! Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Follow Greg: https://www.instagram.com/biggregpoole/ Timestamps: 00:00:00 – Controversy on the Internet About “Speed Bows” 00:07:31 – Everything Matters: Variables in Bowhunting, Speed, and Energy in Bow 00:18:36 – Hinge vs Thumb Button Releases 00:27:19 – Big Bucks, Trail Cameras, and Paying for Opportunity & Time 00:36:56 – Competition & What it Takes to Be the “Best Bowhunter” in 2026 00:46:59 – The Pinnacle of the Hunting Industry: Your Own Television Show 00:55:58 – Winning vs Competing, Social Media, Sponsors, and Marketing Yourself 01:06:09 – Testing & Optimizing Equipment and the Marketing Game 01:23:21 – Community Aspect in Bowhunting (Crossbows & Recreation) 01:30:34 – ATA (Archery Trade Association Show) 01:35:26 – Black Rifle Coffee, Evan Hafer, and Cutoffs 01:38:52 – Up-and-Coming Hunters, “Character Burnout”, and Bad Hunting Marketing 01:52:55 – Controversy with The Bowmar’s Hunting Strategies 02:06:56 – Not all Publicity is Good Publicity: Setting a Good Example 02:22:19 – The Value of Professional Bowhunters & Earning a Name in the Industry 02:49:41 – Competition from Hot Girl Hunters 02:55:24 – Continuing to Evolve to Hold Value and Credibility 03:06:51 – QA: F**k, Marry, Kill: Fast Bow Speed, Light Arrow Weight, Short Brace Weight 03:09:28 – QA: How Important is it for New Archers to Absorb the History of Hunting 03:13:29 – QA: Greg’s Calorie Count in the Backcountry 03:18:27 – Final Thoughts Thank you to our sponsors: Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% your first order Wild Alaskan: https://wildalaskancompany.com/cameron use code CAMERON for $35 off your first box Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Cameron Hanes?

  This is a Keep Hammering Collective with Greg Poole. Dude.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  What's going on, brother?

• 0:20Cameron Hanes?

  Hey, this is, okay, I've been looking, I'm gonna say that I look forward to every podcast because we have to say that. But this one, I really have, just like an ode, I just told Rogan this morning, you're the OG archery guy. I just love, um, well, okay, here's a few things that I like. You've been around forever. You say whatever the you want. I mean, for the most part, there's probably some shit that maybe we can't say, but we want to. But in general, you just tell it like it is.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 0:49Cameron Hanes?

  And you've like been in the industry for decades. And I just love, basically anytime you're on a podcast, I'm like, I'm listening to that because you always have. Your takes are always spot on. I mean, talking about haters or talking about Rogan or talking about whatever. You're like, whatever you say just makes sense to me.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, I appreciate it, pound it.

• 1:14Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, of course.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  We've, I, I still remember, I appreciate that comment, but I, no but. I remember the first time we ever met, and I've told this story before, I think it was like 2002 at Spot Hog. When you were in the acid wash denim days.

• 1:30Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  The pants, the jacket, the fanny pack. We actually met upstairs while Cave Johnson was do, was doing some work on the shooting machine.

• 1:39Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. The Hooters shooter?

• 1:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  And so, you know, we've, we've met each other way back then, but no, man, I mean, you know, that's the thing is when you pre, not the whole internet, but in this space, when you predate the internet and you predate social media. A lot of people can't necessarily compartmentalize that and understand.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  One, that that existed.

• 2:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  And number two, how how things went then versus how they go now.

• 2:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Like, I mean, I was just showing you a piece of technology from 20 plus years ago.

• 2:16Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  That companies right now are all scrambling to incorporate into their bows. And it's like, that was around way simpler decades ago. But no, man, I mean, that's kind of my thing is just, you know, respectful is a relative term.

• 2:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  And so saying what you want to say is one thing, how you how you say it's another.

• 2:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, it's a, but people get, they get worked up on how you say it.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%.

• 2:45Cameron Hanes?

  Just listening to like, okay, and we were talking about this, I think, on when we're talking about, well, it's it's funny. I was looking at this old bow with you. This is like, I shot PSE back in the day, but the the comment that got people all worked up recently was something about speed and forgiveness and PSE's speed. Listen, I've been a PSE dick rider for a long, dude.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  I remember.

• 3:09Cameron Hanes?

  I was obsessed with getting a Mach 6. And then I finally got my own bow, the Mach 10 CRH Blacktail. I did break like three limbs a year with this thing.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:18Cameron Hanes?

  Cause this press, whatever it was right here. But listen, I don't, I love all all bows. I love, I love all archery. I love this industry. I love everything we do. But man, we get really worked up.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Oh, well, all right, let's just, let's just dive into it.

• 3:35Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  So first of all, if you haven't seen the comment that Cam's talking about, he basically said, wire hunters, we as a collective. And this is the thing that I respect about you and and I do the same. When you and I have a comment about something that the hunting community is doing right or wrong, it's we. Oh, I would love to say they.

• 4:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  The problem is it's not a they thing. It's a we thing.

• 4:03Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Just what it is.

• 4:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  And I hear you do it. And so I appreciate that as well. So the comment that that you made about, you know, and I guess unfortunately, but also publicity is a good thing. And a couple of people follow you.

• 4:19Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Is even naming the PSC Sicario is good for them.

• 4:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I maybe I maybe shouldn't have done that because it made it like really pointed, but I don't care.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but but.

• 4:30Cameron Hanes?

  It's what I was talking about.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  But here's the point. What other mainline bow company Hoyt, Matthews, PSC, Bowtech, Prime, Elite? There's some, but how many of those companies are promoting and chasing the speed game in 2026?

• 4:45Cameron Hanes?

  Not many.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  There are none. The answer is none.

• 4:48Cameron Hanes?

  PSE?

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, and they're not even really chasing it. That was a, that was a bow that kind of made sense for them.

• 4:54Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  PSC has historically been on the speed game, but your comment was a hundred percent spot on. And so seeing people's reactions to it to me, I'm just like, I, I don't understand why people are getting so bent about it. Because your comment was, it was a hundred percent accurate about 90% of the market.

• 5:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  You know, 60% of the time, it works every time.

• 5:19Cameron Hanes?

  I, all I said was a speed bow, like 350, I think is what they do with it. It's like a five something inch brace height. That bow, if you're perfect, it's going to be great. And some guy said he shot a 300. I'm like, great. Awesome. Good for you. Maybe you're just really good. For, for most people, you said 90%. Most people, a speed bow in a hunting scenario is going to be a disaster.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Well, it is, and there's lots of reasons. And so we've all been around shops long enough to know that we've seen people walk in and go, oh, I want to shoot that 360 foot per second bow. I want to shoot 360.

• 5:56Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  And the first thing most everyone in the shop will say in their head, because they don't want to hurt his feel bad says, you're not gonna.

• 6:04Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  You're 5'8".

• 6:05Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  So you're not shooting that fast. Number two, have you ever drawn one of those bows?

• 6:10Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  They're a nitro fuel dragster.

• 6:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  It's not a Cadillac.

• 6:14Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  And so what do you want? And then people will literally try it and be like, What else you got? Well, so, so you add up a super light arrow to get there. You every, all these things have high let off. So now you have string tension and there's just, it just compounds the. So your comment about missing super fast was not wrong. It was a hundred percent accurate.

• 6:39Cameron Hanes?

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• 7:19Cameron Hanes?

  He cares about quality, doing things the right way and about building products here in the USA that actually perform in the field. That's why I trust this knife. If you want to check it out, head to Montana Knife Company.com. And right now, podcast listeners, get 10% off any knife with code CAM10. C I M 10. The Keep Hammering Pack Out, built for the back country, built to work. We've got a limited all black pack out dropping January 8th. Quantities are tight and they won't last. Get yours now. If you're up before the sun, logging miles, lifting heavy or chasing elk through the mountains, what fuels you matters.

• 8:03Cameron Hanes?

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• 8:49Cameron Hanes?

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• 9:17Speaker 01

  What's funny to me is the people that got the most upset about it are people that don't do that.

• 9:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  It's like, I don't get mad at you for running 50 miles at a time.

• 9:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you just don't do it.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  I just don't do it. Like, literally, when you asked me on here the next day, I'm like, "Hey, you're not gonna make me run with you, are you?"

• 9:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Like, it's just what it is.

• 9:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, we're just talking archery.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so, but, but that is kind of what the internet has did, is it's made people react to things that have nothing to do with them.

• 9:46Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. No, they, they get kind of butthurt about, "So why are you upset again? What, what was this about?"

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:53Cameron Hanes?

  And it's all, okay, anything I say is generally, all I care about is hunting. All I care about is, is, you know, achieving my hunting goals. So when I look at these bows and these things, or what, everything is always through this lens of hunting. And I just know, I mean, I don't shoot high lead off. I shoot, okay, people will say, "Well, why do you shoot 90 pounds if you don't worry about speed?" I'm like, you're, it's a whole, completely different thing.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:21Cameron Hanes?

  I shoot a tall brace height bow. I like a seven inch brace height if I can get it. At to get any speed out of that, I'm gonna shoot 90 pounds because I'm 27 and a half inch straw.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:33Cameron Hanes?

  But I don't shoot high lead off. I still shoot low lead off because I'm again, you for people who don't know, a high lead off bow, you, you can move that anchor around pretty good. Because you can't feel it. There's no, there's less tension.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  It's rough.

• 10:48Cameron Hanes?

  And I was like, because so people could take that comment and say, oh, you can't feel a high lead off bow? Yeah, maybe I could have reworded it. You can feel it. It's just easier to be off. So I'm like trying to control all these things. People see this thing sitting here. Every arrow I weigh, it's has to be within one grain before it goes in my quiver. And what I explained like to Joey Roll or to Joe or to anybody who gets into archery is everything matters.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:15Cameron Hanes?

  Everything matters. So if everything matters, what, what of these things that matter is going to help you? What's going to hurt you?

• 11:23Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 11:24Cameron Hanes?

  That's it. A, a short brace height bow is potentially going to hurt you.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Correct. Not potentially, unless you are at a certain level.

• 11:35Cameron Hanes?

  And well.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  It'll really hurt you.

• 11:37Cameron Hanes?

  All I'm saying is, okay, in a controlled environment, on the range, 20 yards, paper, there's your X, whatever. Pull back, take your time, do whatever you want. Completely different than hunting.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yes, 100%.

• 11:52Cameron Hanes?

  Is that to say a person couldn't release a perfect arrow hunting? No, you can. The odds are going down. Okay. With all these scenarios.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Every heartbeat it goes down.

• 12:04Cameron Hanes?

  Right. So I'm just like trying to control what I can control. And what I've learned in, in 40, so I've been hunting for 40 years. I've been bow hunting since 89. So it's like 37 seasons, something like that. What I've learned. In hunting, it's hardly ever like on the range at the bow rack at 20 yards. I don't shoot tournaments. I never really have been a paper shooter, so I can't really speak to that. But I have shot at the bow rack a lot. I have shot. It's a lot different hunting. Right. Okay, it's, things are happening a million miles an hour, emotions are going, animals are reacting. And so, yeah, I'm trying to put all the things that I can control, all those odds I spoke of in my favor if possible. Correct.

• 12:48Cameron Hanes?

  So I'm shooting the straightest arrow, okay? I'm shooting, I'll pay more for what I think is the best arrow. An arrow is different from everything else. So you can talk about the bow, talk about the release, talk about the let off. Okay, an arrow is separate on its own. Yep. Is this straight? Is it gonna fly? It's what's the highest likelihood I'm gonna release an accurate arrow? Can that arrow affect where I'm gonna hit? Yes, it can. Yeah. Based on tolerance, right? So if I look at everything individually and people will say, well, oh, you talked about releases, you know, and you say that they're advantage for target, but they're not, yeah, they're not for hunting.

• 13:31Cameron Hanes?

  They're, in my opinion, for me, they're different for hunting. I want an index release. So I'm just looking at all this just through the lens of hunting. If you want to argue about it, you're gonna lose. You're gonna lose because I'm putting every odd in my favor for hunting only. Right. You're looking at it, tack is a completely different thing. Oh, yeah, 100%. Shoot your high poundage bow, light arrow with a field point, glue in whatever, make it as light as possible. I don't give a, it's not hunting. Right. It's not hunting. You're not worried about penetration. You're not worried about.

• 14:12Cameron Hanes?

  Anything you're worried about just TAC, right?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:15Cameron Hanes?

  That's different than Vegas. That's different than hunting. These are all different things you can optimize for each one.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, so the, the thing that I've been saying to people about your comment, because it got sent to me freaking tons of times was they're like, and there's even people made some, made some videos about it. They're like, well, why do you shoot a 90 pound bow? And I've literally told everybody it's not for speed.

• 14:40Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  It's for energy.

• 14:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, definitely.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  So if you take like, I'm not shooting 90 pounds.

• 14:46Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Guess why?

• 14:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Cause I got a 32 inch draw length.

• 14:49Cameron Hanes?

  I thought it was 42.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 14:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  I don't have to.

• 14:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  And so I shoot a, either a, depending on my build, I either shoot a 520 grain arrow or a 600 grain arrow. I have two builds.

• 15:01Cameron Hanes?

  That's awesome.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  70 pounds.

• 15:03Cameron Hanes?

  It's a lot of energy.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, it's like 104.

• 15:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Foot, well, I guarantee you that yours is probably that or more too. You're just having to use, because of the draw length differential, you're having to use poundage to shoot a heavier arrow, but probably getting the same kinetic energy that I am.

• 15:21Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  It's not a speed thing, it's an energy thing.

• 15:25Cameron Hanes?

  Right, exactly.

• 15:26Speaker 01

  And I, how fast you think I could shoot if I shot a 350 grain arrow?

• 15:30Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Dude, it'd be like 340.

• 15:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  I'm good.

• 15:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  I've been there, I've done that. And you just can't control it.

• 15:39Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  You can't control it, so I'm not going to do it in hunting.

• 15:42Cameron Hanes?

  We used to do, and way before TAC, we used to do skins. It's a dollar target.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:47Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and it's like, best arrow at every target gets the pot. We cared about that like it was like the Super Bowl.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:58Cameron Hanes?

  Like, oh, we're going to go, we're doing skins today or whatever, Myrtle Creek? Okay, it's on. You are optimizing that setup, lightest arrows you could find, most poundage, because you know, this is unmarked, so in before, you couldn't have rangefinders, even if they had them. So we're just judging yardage. It matters how fast that arrow shoots, right?

• 16:20Speaker 01

  That's a whole nother matter.

• 16:21Cameron Hanes?

  So we've been through all the tiny little veins, the, the super thin, light arrows, everything. It's they'd bend if you looked at them, but they're light, right? And that's different than hunting.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:34Cameron Hanes?

  So we can, can we, we can look at all this and, and calculate it and make decisions based on what we're trying to do. But yeah, to your point, it's, it's not so much, speed is a function of energy, but it's just one part of it.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 16:47Cameron Hanes?

  For me to get any energy, I need speed. For me to get speed at 27 and a half, I have to have poundage.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:56Cameron Hanes?

  Cause I don't want to give up, you're also sacrificing energy with a lighter arrow. So I don't want a lighter arrow.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 17:01Cameron Hanes?

  I want a, around a 500 grain arrow. So for all that to work, 90 pounds.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. But the vast majority of people that walk into archery shops are barely shooting a 400 grain arrow.

• 17:13Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Barely. Well, if the vast majority, and this is back to your comment, your comment was spot on. People just didn't like the fact that it was true, whether it applied to them or not.

• 17:24Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  And so, you know, when it comes to like all the things, first of all, you're a sandbagger.

• 17:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  You're a total sandbagger. You act like you can't shoot very good. You act like you don't know what's going on with your bows. You are full of shit campaigns. You are way smarter and you're a way better shot than you let on. So you can keep that, yeah, calling you out, playa. You are, you can sigh all you want. Pete, you are a really good shot. No, you never did the tournaments, cause you don't give a shit about that.

• 17:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  But anyone who's watched you shoot out at the farm, or anyone that's watched you shoot animals, that shit don't happen on accident.

• 18:06Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  And we've all gotten lucky on animals, is what I'm saying, but you're a really good shot.

• 18:10Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Over time, usually the truth comes to.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. So you're a really good shot and you always kind of downplay your knowledge of stuff. And look, man, you're, you know, half, half a mile from one of the best bow shops in the country. And Wayne's awesome. And so you have access to something that is.

• 18:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I'm lucky for sure.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  You're blessed with that.

• 18:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  But you're a good shot. Now, are you gonna come to Vegas and drop nine hundreds with Bodie Turner? Yeah. I'm not either. No. But, but you don't care about that. Right. But as far as what you've done and what you do, you're a really good shot. You should consider giving yourself more credit there, but you're not gonna. But, um, you know, that's just something that, you know, comes, comes with learning. Like you, you were mentioning the, uh, the wrist strap, the wrist strap release. Yeah. Dude, I was hunting out in Western Oregon, out in the strawberries in like 2006. Eastern Oregon. Eastern Oregon. Yeah.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  And I'm out there and I had the old Jim Fletcher, the, and man, uh, in, on the bag in practice in camp, wad. Yeah. Wadding. Dude, we got out on an animal and I missed like, hi guy, like full blown karate chop. It was terrible. Yeah. Twice. Oh. Go back to camp and I'm like, shit. Hmm. What do I do now? Go back to the bags, wad them up. So I actually pulled out my Zenith hinge. Hmm. And I've shot a hinge for hunting ever since. Okay.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  I'm not recommending that for everybody. Right. Just like I don't recommend people run 200 miles at a time like you do. Yeah, yeah. Everything ain't for everybody. Right. I'm a firm believer and know your role. Yeah. So for me, the hinge was like home. Hmm. So when I would draw back, I mean, like for me, cause I'm not, you and I are not in the same conversation when it comes to hunting. You are elite. I'm petite. And so, and so, but when I draw back, I tell myself on an animal every time, the antelope I got in Colorado this year, I'm like, you're not shooting Greg, just draw back. Hmm. See how you're aiming. Cause for me, it seems like no matter where I go, as soon as I come to draw on an animal, an earthquake happens. Yeah, and it's off. Seismic. Yeah.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  And I'm like, all right, we're just, we're just gonna see how you're aiming here. Mm hmm. And if I'm aiming good, my release will click. Yeah. Not because I make it. Oh, I see. So when I draw back, if I'm aiming good enough, my form, because I've did it so many times, my form will just go click. And then I'm like, oh, we're doing this.

• 20:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  And we're good. That's not for everybody. But like I was telling you right before we, we went on air, if you are shooting a hinge, or if you are shooting a, a thumb button, you gotta be able to send it.

• 21:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Because the animal ain't waiting.

• 21:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  What it is.

• 21:13Cameron Hanes?

  I'm just curious. So in that, I haven't messed around with it like that to, to know. But when you say you can send it, is that, I mean, I'm just thinking about with my, I got a wise guy. Before that, I shot Scott forever, but I shot a Fletcher back in the day with a little rope. And then I think whatever else.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:36Cameron Hanes?

  So I've been indexed forever. I've, I've messed around with other stuff, but,

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:40Cameron Hanes?

  But I know generally the mechanics of the index are exactly the same. Either you take your time, slow squeeze, or you punch it, slow squeeze, mechanics are the same. When you send it, like you said, with a hinge, is it exactly the same? When it comes to seafood, most people don't really know what they're buying, where it came from, how it was raised, or what you're actually putting in your body. I used to question all of it, nutrition, taste, sustainability, until I found Wild Alaskan Company. Wild Alaskan Company delivers 100% wild-caught seafood straight to your door. No farmed fish, no antibiotics, no additives. The first box I got was impressive.

• 22:21Cameron Hanes?

  Perfectly portioned, frozen right off the boat, and packed with flavor. I've been cooking it simple, pan-seared, salmon, halibut, and cod, and it's some of the best fish I've had. My favorite is a wild Alaskan salmon. It's rich, clean, and loaded with omega threes. Buying wild-caught seafood matters to me. It supports healthy oceans, real fishing communities, and gives you food you can actually trust. And the best part is, it's flexible. You choose what you want, when it ships, and it just shows up ready to go. And there's zero risk. If you're not completely satisfied with your first box, Wild Alaskan Company will give you a full refund, no questions asked. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood

• 23:04Cameron Hanes?

  you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com backslash Cameron for $35 off your first box of premium wild-caught seafood. Out in the mountains, there's no room for weak gear. When I'm packing out meat in the heat or loading up for a long-range training trip, I need a cooler that holds the line every time. That's why I use Grizzly coolers. These things are bear-proof, rugged as hell, and keep ice locked in for days, literally. I've had coolers on the trail, baking in the sun, still holding ice after hauling out elk quarters. That's performance you can count on. Whether you're running deep in the backcountry or just stacking meat for

• 23:47Cameron Hanes?

  the weekend, Grizzly is built for that grind. Right now, you can get 20% off at grizzlycoolers.com with the code KEEPHAMMERING. And that's all one word. And I'm not going to spell it. Keep hammering. Again, keep hammering, one word for 20% off. Don't roll with weak gear. Go Grizzly.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Uh, no, it's slightly different. The problem is with a hand or a thumb button, if you squeeze it to get it to go off, you're going to move out of your peep and you're going to miss. So basically, if you have a handheld release and you need to let one go, folks, if you try this, be up close to the target or be in the middle. All you have to do is relax this index finger because that's where all the tension is. So if you just are here and you just relax this index finger, it's gone.

• 24:37Cameron Hanes?

  And so you could have the anchor you need, you can have every, okay. I just think that it feels like that's a lot in the heat of the moment.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  A hundred percent is.

• 24:48Cameron Hanes?

  And I know, so I don't know if you, we had this film come out this, just recently, it's called The Bow Hunter. But did you see the shot on the bull that I killed?

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:58Cameron Hanes?

  So basically, through the, I had a tiny little hole, I had to, he, I tried to stop him, he didn't stop. So I'm like, I gotta shoot right now.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:09Cameron Hanes?

  If you haven't, if you're not familiar with how that works, or you have to do something weird, like you just said with your index finger, or your anchor, if you try to do like this, you're blowing it on a once-in-a-lifetime bull.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 25:22Cameron Hanes?

  That's why I say is for, and I don't know, on my experience, I don't think you can beat an index for hunting.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Basically, you're right. It's very, very rare occasions. Now, I'm going to say a name here. I'm not comparing myself to him. Levi Morgan. Like, I'm not comparing myself to Levi Morgan by any stretch of the imagination.

• 25:46Cameron Hanes?

  He is, he is, though, the standard.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Oh, God, dude, Levi is, yeah, it's ridiculous.

• 25:52Cameron Hanes?

  So when, when this whole speed forgiveness bullshit, people are getting all worked up for no reason for the truth. I just texted him, I said, hey, tell me about, for tournaments and hunting, tell me about your bows, what's the, what's the brace height?

• 26:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. What do you think he said?

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Oh, seven plus.

• 26:12Cameron Hanes?

  He said, six for tournaments, seven for hunting.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:18Cameron Hanes?

  The best in the world.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it depends what tournaments he's shooting. But for the IBO stuff, yeah, absolutely six.

• 26:23Cameron Hanes?

  So it's like, he's the best, he's the standard.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:27Cameron Hanes?

  So that's different than what we were just talking about, but that was more brace height, which is speed kind of related, but go ahead to your point, like, what, why did you bring him up right there?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  Well, so he shoots, he shoots a hinge whenever he wants as well. And so unless you have literally a million arrow shot count with a hinge or whatever, what I'm talking about is not for everybody.

• 26:51Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  You are 100% right. Do you know who Doug Koning is?

• 26:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  He's one like-

• 26:55Cameron Hanes?

  Is he a pistol guy?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  He shoots all the guns. Yeah, he's won like 20 Bianchi Cups.

• 26:59Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  He's, he's the Mount Rushmore.

• 27:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yep.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  And so I was at a national sales meeting for an optics company and we were shooting rifles and everything and I show up and Doug's there and all these operators are there and I'm just the archery guy. But they all shoot archery. So we're at a little break between shooting and Doug comes over to me, he goes, I have a question. I'm like, oh, do you? Okay. He goes, I love to shoot my bow and I hunt. Now, remember, folks, Doug Koning, the GOAT of shooting firearms. Keep that in mind. So he's shooting at a shop and one of the shop employees says, hey, man, we need to work on you not punching the trigger. And so he's asking me, what do I do?

• 27:48Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  And I said to him, well, this is simple. Are, are, are you shooting your bow? The exact same shot process and execution that you do with your, with your guns? And he goes, yeah. I go, don't change a thing.

• 28:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Don't change anything.

• 28:08Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  You're literally the greatest rifle firearm shooter. No.

• 28:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Do that.

• 28:16Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  And I'm like, how often do you miss? He's like, oh, I, I don't really miss animals.

• 28:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  I'm like, and so you're going to consider changing because some dude at a shop said, it looks like you're kind of punching it.

• 28:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  And so that's the dip, that's the difference between what is quote unquote textbook.

• 28:35Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  You know, like your, your release hand.

• 28:38Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  People look at it and they're like, oh, he does this and his finger. And I'm like, yeah, okay. Well, next time you see Reggie Miller or Larry Bird, walk up to them and tell them that their junk shots look like trash and they need to change it.

• 28:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Goes in the hole.

• 28:52Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Did it go in the hole?

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Did it go in the hole?

• 28:55Cameron Hanes?

  Did the arrow hit where I wanted? Yeah, it's, and also people get, I think they get a little confused because they see the, the anchor back here. But look at the string.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:03Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, the string's not in my face. It's barely touching my nose. I do have either sometimes a bowmar nose button or a, just a kisser for here. But I have a kisser, I have this. So if you're looking at like the mechanics of me shooting, just forget about this part.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:20Cameron Hanes?

  Cause this part is the same every time, no different than if you're sucked in like this. Or like, you know, whatever, whatever you're doing, it's the same. So let's look at the, the string. Is the string impeded? No, my face is out of the string. So let's look at the mechanics and that, the, the arrow, the string, everything is exactly perfect. Exactly what anybody wants.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:42Cameron Hanes?

  So ignore the, the part you're focusing on for some weird reason. Cause it's might be different and let's look at what matters.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, dude, I mean, look, back in the day, everyone knows what archery talk is. Or at least everybody knows what archery talk used to be, but. Back in the day, people would post pictures of like Jesse Broadwater or the greatest shooters that have ever lived. It was just as a joke and then put, how's my form?

• 30:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  And people would tear him to shreds.

• 30:11Cameron Hanes?

  Criticize, yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  So people on the internet are gonna criticize the greatest. They're gonna criticize everything and everybody. It doesn't matter who it is.

• 30:20Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  And you're like, I don't know how often they show y'all this room.

• 30:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  But Ace Ventura's room of death ain't got nothing on this place.

• 30:30Cameron Hanes?

  Well, and so this has like been a lifetime of whatever, but I have been also on some, I mentioned Winneha, that was 24 years of putting in, but

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:40Cameron Hanes?

  There's a lot of hunts that mean like, they're like true once in a lifetime, either money, draw, whatever, just shit's not gonna happen. I have to believe in what I do and I have to believe there's nothing that's gonna stop me from killing this animal. So how, how do you get that confidence? It's all these little things, all this practice, all these, you know, this visualization. But yeah, it's, it's worked out pretty good.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  You think?

• 31:06Cameron Hanes?

  Over the years.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  You think?

• 31:08Cameron Hanes?

  And I don't know, you know, people talk about, oh, must be nice to do this hunt, that hunt, whatever. It's like, when you know, if you're gonna, if you make a up shot, blood hits the ground and it's not a fatal arrow, you're paying sometimes a hundred grand.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  But yeah.

• 31:25Cameron Hanes?

  A hundred thousand dollars on, on an arrow.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:29Cameron Hanes?

  And plus then the disappointment in all these hopes and dreams, letting the animal down, the animal potentially suffering, the people who you're with, that your family who believed in you said, yeah, oh, that's a lot of money. But you know, it's like all this shit is weighing on you. So until you've been in that situation, I don't know, maybe shut the up?

• 31:51Speaker 01

  I'd be, I'm a, I, no lies, no lies detected. Well, and I mean, and

• 31:56Cameron Hanes?

  I'm joking, people. You can say all your stupid shit you want to, it doesn't matter.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm not joking. I'm not joking at all. Like literally should consider keeping your lips together. But I mean, I'm, I'm glad you bring that up. And that's the, that's the, the money thing. Have you seen this latest thing that has everybody triggered on the internet? Guys are, now this is gonna sound very familiar, since you're an OG as well.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  And I've never heard of you doing this, but this is, you're gonna have heard this.

• 32:28Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  This guy set up a pile of trail cameras on public land. And he has spent hundreds of hours out there scouting, finding deer, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he is selling that information to whoever wants to buy it and go hunt those animals. And people are losing their minds. And I'm like,

• 32:53Speaker 01

  do y'all know how long that like, that's not new?

• 33:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  That's not new. And so I'm glad you bring that up, you know, especially like, number one, you do this for a living. Levi and the people that do shows do it for a living. And, you know, Joe doesn't do it for a living. But the thing that really irritates me is how people get so upset about people with, with opportunities and means they don't have. But it's about time.

• 33:23Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Definitely.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  You don't have time to go spend a month in New Mexico, hoping you draw a certain, I made up New Mexico. But you don't have the time.

• 33:36Cameron Hanes?

  With putting 50 trail cameras out.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  And to live out there with these, you don't have the time.

• 33:41Cameron Hanes?

  Maybe I'll get a tech. Maybe I'll draw this year.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Exactly. And then what? You're screwed. This is what you do for a living.

• 33:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  And so guys like Joe and, you know, guys like Levi that have a show to produce. That what you're paying for is opportunity and time.

• 33:56Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  I mean, if all of a sudden the sky opened up and you and Joe Rogan could spend a month somewhere scouting, you would get the same animal.

• 34:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  But the money you pay is because you don't have the time to do it.

• 34:10Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  And, and this is gonna hurt some feels. It's not, it's not like when you go slam a monster blacktail or mule deer elk that they go, oh yeah, Cam, see that bush with that trail over there? He's gonna come out there at 7:07 a.m.

• 34:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  But that happens a lot hunting some other animals now, doesn't it?

• 34:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure. It ha- it's, it's, and people will say, they'll like lump me in with that and you know, we're talking whitetail are pretty predictable.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:42Cameron Hanes?

  You can to kill, usually you don't luck into killing a 200 inch whitetail.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, no, no.

• 34:49Cameron Hanes?

  So if somebody's doing that, they're putting in a lot of work and they're busting their ass or they're paying a lot of money.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:56Cameron Hanes?

  That's all there is to it. That's how it works. And you can, they are more predictable. Is it, is it guaranteed? No. 200 inch whitetail, it's going to be seven years old probably, and it's going to be smart. It's, it knows the, the game. So you're going to have to do everything right and somebody's going to have to, somebody, either you or somebody else is going to have to put in a lot of time to do that. With elk, mule deer, blacktail, bear are a little easier, but it's, they're not predictable. I mean, it can happen, not very often.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Do you think people understand, like whitetail or excuse me, yeah, and the whitetail are, that's a whole nother thing. And it is 85% of our market. I'm not dissing whitetail folks.

• 35:42Cameron Hanes?

  I love big, I mean, I've got big whitetail here. I love them.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  But it's just a different game.

• 35:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  But.

• 35:47Cameron Hanes?

  I love all bony.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Mule deer and elk aside, how many people that have watched you and consume your content really understand how hard it is for you to bebop out into the hills over here and slam some of the blacktail that you do? Because that's literally like hunting in the Amazon.

• 36:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  There's logging roads everywhere. Every swinging dick with a bow and a tag is up there driving all the logging roads. Do you think people understand that, how hard just that part is? Because you'll literally go out for an afternoon and kill blacktails that people are like, I've never even seen a blacktail that big. And you just like, so do you, do you, do you think people comprehend how hard that is?

• 36:37Cameron Hanes?

  I, I mean, blacktail are kind of a unique species, you know? So yeah, not, not a lot of people hunt blacktail. People who hunt blacktail know. They, they know that killing a big blacktail is tough.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:49Cameron Hanes?

  And, uh, but that's for the west coast people. It's a, most people. Yeah, no, they, they, they wouldn't know because they, they hadn't done it, but it's, it's a, I'm gonna say all bow hunting is hard. So like there's, there's guys like I'm, I'm always looking about like the next generation of guys coming up and everybody kind of wants to skip the line a little bit and, and be at the top before they kind of pay their dues. But I'm like, I'm looking at these young guys and be like, ah, this kid is, he works his ass off. He's, you know, do, it just takes time usually.

• 37:30Cameron Hanes?

  And I'm not, I'm not criticizing these younger guys because I was that younger guy. Right. And I did write a book. I don't know. I did write, write a blacktail book and I'd only killed seven bucks. So people could say, who the are you to write a book? You've only killed, I'd killed more, more mule deer, but um, seven blacktail, trophy blacktail, and I wrote a book on it. So I get the skipping the line part, but you can tell somebody's passion. I just like, I want to support some of these young guys because I know how the industry is. The industry loves to eat our own and they love to, they want to ruin people. Um, if they think that they're competition or if they think they're getting a little too much shine,

• 38:13Cameron Hanes?

  they'll be like, you know what? I think you need to be humbled or whatever the case. Even if this kid is like something special. So I like, I understand how it works. I get people who might not understand who, um, maybe like you said, blacktail, maybe they don't get it, whatever. I'm all good with people just loving what we do, wanting to dream big because I was that, but this shit takes time. Oh. The, the, the whole point to all that was it's a, it's a grind. It's, it takes time to make a name, to prove yourself, to have these consistent results. And everybody wants it sooner than maybe it should happen, but it's a tough industry in

• 38:58Cameron Hanes?

  that way. I mean, you've, you've been around it forever.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:01Cameron Hanes?

  What, what do you think is the biggest hurdle for, like, say, somebody wants to be a big name in bow hunting? What is the hardest, hardest part of that?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Two thousand twenty-six or nineteen ninety-six?

• 39:15Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  So, well, there's, there's a big difference.

• 39:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Because back then, you know, and this is something I talk to people a lot about, and this has to go to the ATA and kinda how the whole interaction is going. Twenty-five years ago, how much did, let's just say twenty years ago, because you were, you've been on the climb for a while now, how much access did the general public get to Cam Haynes? Could read his books, you could read his articles, and then you could see features on him in magazines and maybe see him at a show.

• 39:46Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 39:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Everybody knows, because of social media, everybody knows what you did yesterday. At least the amount you put out on the internet.

• 39:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  So, people feel like they have a, a connection and a relationship with you. And that didn't exist twenty years ago.

• 40:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  And so, that's why at the ATA now, you don't see companies, and this is no offense to any other companies, this is just the way it is, you and the Lakoskis and Ted Nugent's, and you don't see them bringing in everybody for signings.

• 40:18Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Anymore.

• 40:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Because people feel like they know you.

• 40:21Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  So, are they gonna stand in line for forty-five minutes to get an autograph when they consume your content and comment, and you might comment or like it back, and so they feel like they have this relationship with you? Well, that's changed the entire landscape of the industry. Especially for what you're talking about, like, trying to get into it.

• 40:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  There, there's a couple ways to go about it, and there's a couple of young kids, and really, it's just gonna be a matter of, well, how do you plan on breaking into it? You can buy your way into it. If you are independently wealthy, or dad's independently wealthy, you can go kill a bunch of hammers for five years, have some little bit of personality, and your social media will do very, very well.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Not saying that those animals don't count, but it's a different scenario than someone like there's a couple, uh, James Visser from Bo Disciples. Yeah. He's just a fun dude. Yeah. Yeah. Big personality. Yeah. He doesn't care about killing the biggest of everything. No. He goes out and hunts. He does well, but he does tournaments and he just likes to have fun with it. Ty Jordan, he's another kid. He's doing very well right now. He's all about the flight of the arrow and creative content, but he's not out there killing two hundreds and four hundreds every day. So how you want to build your, your foundation to get to where they are. It's, it's harder now. Let me rephrase that. It's easier now to build a page that has a million

• 41:52Speaker 01

  followers, whether it's on Tic Tac, Tik Tok, Instagram, right? Yeah. Yeah. Nope. I'm good. Um, whether it's Tik Tok, Instagram, Facebook, whatever platform you want to say, it's easier to build a million follower, following page now than it is to have the credibility. Yeah. Of someone that built that when social media wasn't as big a factor. Yeah. Organically. Yeah. Correct. And so that's built on, that's built on accomplishments. You can build a page like that without necessarily having that level of accomplishments. Is one better than the other? I don't know. I'd ask, I'd start asking about conversions and I could,

• 42:36Speaker 01

  I could nerd out on the conversion thing and you know, uh, look, I'm a diet in the wool asshole. I've been on the marketing side forever. And so when somebody like, I've known you forever, but when someone comes to, you know, talk about sponsorships and stuff, I'm like, well, show me your demographic information for your page. Well, what do you mean? I have this many followers. Yeah. I want to see where. Yeah. Where are they? India.

• 43:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Somebody gets it.

• 43:08Cameron Hanes?

  So, yeah.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Those are all fake.

• 43:10Cameron Hanes?

  Thank you.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Or, or if you look at a page.

• 43:12Cameron Hanes?

  They're not buying shit.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Correct. Or if you look at a page, it has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of followers and each post gets 12 likes.

• 43:21Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  That's not real.

• 43:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  It's not real.

• 43:25Cameron Hanes?

  There's, there's a lot out there and it's like to your point on the marketing, all they give about, can you move product?

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Conversion. Yes.

• 43:32Cameron Hanes?

  Can you move product? If, so you, you mentioned like your dad could have money, you could go kill all the stuff. Somebody like that isn't going to sell product. I mean, it's just.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  They're not going to convert.

• 43:44Cameron Hanes?

  It's just, there's no, with how this works now, social media, yes, you have to connect with the people we see at the shows. That's why I used to love going to the shows so I could see the bone collector guys. So I could see Waddell and I was in the industry. So a lot of people in the industry would be lining up to get an autograph, right? And so, yeah, I, I get that. But the point is, it's like just money and just killing big stuff. It, it doesn't really result in, I think where people hope, hope it would.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:17Cameron Hanes?

  Um, the personalities, like the James Visser style, the, the fun, the, uh, I mean, I, I took a different route, like way more serious and people would say, you don't have to train like a professional athlete to bow hunt. So I, I did a different one, but I was relatable to somebody who had a job, who still had dreams. So that's, that's my connection to people, just like a regular guy who has big dreams.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Dude, you had a job.

• 44:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Like a.

• 44:48Cameron Hanes?

  Forever.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Job, job.

• 44:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  A nine to five, you worked for the city of Eugene or something.

• 44:53Cameron Hanes?

  Uh, Springfield Utility Board.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Springfield Utility Board for like 27 years.

• 44:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yep. Yep.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  While.

• 44:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  While concurrently doing all the shit everybody else saw.

• 45:04Cameron Hanes?

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• 45:46Cameron Hanes?

  use code CAM at checkout. This season, don't settle for sluggish. Ignite the hunt. Hoyt began with a dream and a simple desire. Create the best bow hunting and target archery equipment possible, and since 1931, that is exactly what they've been doing. I'm skeptical every year that this year's bow will be better than last year's, yet somehow, their engineers seem to figure it out. I think what sets them apart is their engineers are all avid hunters themselves, so they take their bows in the field every year with intent to make them stronger, faster, and more accurate. Hoyt is actually my lifetime bow sponsor. That is how much I believe in them. Their products and their drive to always be the

• 46:30Cameron Hanes?

  best. Hoyt is giving listeners of this podcast 20% off products in their store with code CAM. Sorry, it doesn't work on bows, but it does work on accessories, including quivers, rests, and my favorite, the ghost stick. That's code CAM at checkout at Hoyt.com.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  And so, your thing, your thing, I mean, you came up in a time when it was raw, like raw, raw. There was nothing, there was nothing fabricated, there was nothing, you know, you weren't shooting bows as accurate as they are now, you weren't doing lots of things, but you came up and you, you didn't choose.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  To do it the way you did it. The way you did it chose you.

• 47:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, basically, yeah.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Cause how many other people are are literally going to be capable of being chosen by the path that chose you?

• 47:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, not not many. It's a I was definitely lucky, but you know, when you when you think about, I was just, we loved bow hunting.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:34Cameron Hanes?

  And then I loved writing. I wasn't that great at writing, I didn't think, but I loved sharing my stories. What I had to like hustle and like, I remember, you know, when I was working with Eastmans, it was always like this big thing on so that advertisers, you know, running a magazine, you need advertisers, right? So if I could get advertisers, that gave me influence, not only with the people, but with the magazine, with Eastmans. Cause I was helping. So I remember one time I was working so hard with Jonathan Shepley to get them an ad, to put an ad in Eastmans that, and I don't know, I don't know why I cared so much,

• 48:16Cameron Hanes?

  but this is like, I wanted to make everybody happy. I'm always like, I think it's just kind of an example of hustling. I paid for the PSE ad to go in the magazine. I paid $1,100 or something.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:29Cameron Hanes?

  I paid for it. I paid for PSE's ad to be in East. Why? Because I was like, I knew this, this is how this works. For this magazine to succeed, we need advertising for, I can't have, because the knock would be like, oh, well, these companies, they sign you, then they don't have to advertise in the magazine. You know what I mean?

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Kinda.

• 48:52Cameron Hanes?

  To me, it always worked best when there was an ad and I would, and the editor was shooting it.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 48:57Cameron Hanes?

  Because then it's like, they're getting hit from two different directions, right? From from the professional ad and then from the organic, I'm killing shit. But sometimes it didn't work that way because PSE has budgets, Eastmans needed money, you know, whatever. I'm like, I was like, kind of coming up, so it put a lot of pressure on.

• 49:17Cameron Hanes?

  There was readers who would send shit in and say, I'm so sick of seeing Cam's face in this magazine because it was like I'd be on a feature, I'd be in, you know, a five page feature, then on seven of my sponsors ads.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:30Cameron Hanes?

  Spot Hawk, Winner's Choice, PSE, if, if that's what it was. And so then I'm on every page in there plus, and people were just like, I thought this was our magazine. I thought this was for, you know, the, the DIY guy and this all Cam. So there was this like balance, but I would, point is, I think is what I wanted to get to is I was hustling, thinking about the business part of it all the time and also like the, the optics part and like trying to play the game.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:01Cameron Hanes?

  So that, this has been going on for a long time.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And that, that money you spent was an investment in yourself, not an investment in your sponsor.

• 50:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  It makes total sense. You don't even want to know the amount of money I've spent on shit that had nothing to do with me personally, but it furthered.

• 50:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  What I was trying to work on.

• 50:20Cameron Hanes?

  Right. It looks like you go on a hunt, you're like, you hope that you're successful. If it's a good animal, you're going to reap the rewards from that success.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:29Cameron Hanes?

  Right? So you have to pay for the hunt and hopefully it comes back and hopefully, or maybe you go on so many of these hunts and then you have all this success, you can write a book. And I would trick myself into thinking that, oh, I'm a, I'm a professional writer. I would make $25 from an Oregon Hunter magazine article and spend thousands hunting. So it's like, for a while there, it didn't really work.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. You mean like the guys that go, oh, going out and hunting, the meat's way cheaper than at a store.

• 50:58Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah, no, no.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Not even close. So that brings up a great point.

• 51:01Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Since you started up until in your career, probably 10 years ago, what was considered the pinnacle of the hunting industry? Having a television show.

• 51:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I, dude, I was a, I wanted a hunting TV show. I wanted to be the host.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  So why didn't you?

• 51:25Speaker 01

  I've asked you this question before, multiple times. So, why didn't you? If, I mean, let's be honest here.

• 51:32Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  If that's the, not for everybody.

• 51:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  But if having a television show is the quote unquote pinnacle of what people consider in the hunting industry, why didn't you ever do it?

• 51:47Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I wanted it. I tried. So if I'm being, if I'm being objective, I don't think I was good enough. I, I, I don't, I don't know how else to say it. Um, cause I was trying, I was hustling. I was like, I was the host for Rocky Mountain Elk for Elk Fever. I was a host of Eastman's, but I wanted like a road trips.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:13Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I, Waddell to me, and there's, there's pictures of some, oh yeah, right there.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:19Cameron Hanes?

  Waddell to me was the ultimate hunting superstar. You know, I know there's people before, there's Chuck Adams, who I loved and, you know, just obsessed over. There's Dwight Schu, there's Larry Jones, there was Randy Ulmer, all these superstars, right? Miles Keller, when I first came up, um, lots of, lots of people. But to me, in my era, Michael Waddell was the one.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  He had it all.

• 52:44Cameron Hanes?

  Funny, is a great shot. Um, he's good at business.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:50Cameron Hanes?

  You know, and that's part of what I was seeing also is like, God, this guy gets it. So anyway, I wanted a road trips and I remember I talked to Womack one time. We were in, in Utah, like a million years ago. And I'm like, could we ever do anything? Cause he was like the best at the time. He was doing road trips originally and he, that show was cutting edge.

• 53:12Cameron Hanes?

  So I was working hard, like, how do I get an opportunity? And I just couldn't, I couldn't make it happen. I thought I had one, one time, um, the program director at Outdoor Channel, Jeff.

• 53:27Cameron Hanes?

  God, what was his last name? Anyway, he was in charge of all the programs. So I did a pilot and I called it beast mode bow hunting and I had a hunt with Roy killing a brown bear. I saw my YouTube channel right now and I always like built up this hunt. This is going to be beast mode boning. This is kind of what the adventures we're going to do is like hardcore Alaska, cutting, you know, on the edge of everything, big brown bear on our own. And they said, they said, yeah, Roy's not really, we wanted you to be like a superhero. And I'm like, I'd like the superhero bow hunter, like, because I trained into all this. And I'm like, I said, listen, I'm Roy is a superhero.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:12Cameron Hanes?

  Roy is the one.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  He's gangster.

• 54:15Cameron Hanes?

  I'm like, you, you don't get any more hardcore than this guy. They're like, yeah, it doesn't, we were wanting you to be the.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  He doesn't fit the mold.

• 54:22Cameron Hanes?

  Right. And, and so I was just like, that was probably as close as I was. And I, I chose the path to, I wanted to, I wanted to share Roy, you know, because he's, he's like such a badass and I knew it, but it just didn't work. So I had opportunities, like if I was good enough, people would have seen me on the Rocky Malnuck show and been like, this guy needs his own, his, his own show. Or they would have seen me host Eastman's and be like, this guy's a superstar. He needs his, that never happened. So that, to me, that tells me if I'm looking in the mirror, I wasn't good enough.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  That didn't happen, period? Or that didn't happen that you heard of?

• 55:03Cameron Hanes?

  That I heard of, I guess. Yeah.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  So that's not saying it didn't happen.

• 55:06Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know. I mean.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  And I mean, I don't want to.

• 55:09Cameron Hanes?

  I didn't have my own show.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Well, this is true, but, and I don't want to assault anyone's game, but you've seen the quality of some of these hunting shows over the last 20 years.

• 55:21Cameron Hanes?

  But that's also a little bit different because you could, to your point about money, you could pay to have your own show.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%.

• 55:27Cameron Hanes?

  You could be the, the worst on camera, the worst hunter. You got money? You got, oh, you want to pay for airtime?

• 55:35Speaker 01

  You're in.

• 55:35Cameron Hanes?

  It's like me, it's like me buying that PSE ad. You could do that on outdoor channel. They didn't give a how many viewers you got if you paid for their time.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 55:44Cameron Hanes?

  So there's, there'd be people out there paying for airtime. And nobody's watching this shit. They got no sponsors. They're going in the hole every episode, every season. Outdoor Channel's like, check cleared. You got a show.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Literally.

• 55:59Cameron Hanes?

  So it's not really like, it's not really like the public is generating this opportunity, or the, the industry said, oh, this guy's a star. We want to see more of them. It wasn't that. It was like, if you have money, you can have your own show.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:15Cameron Hanes?

  So I didn't have money. And then I didn't have anybody who believed in me enough to be like, well, we'll front this thing. So that was, Outdoor Channel was kind of a weird thing in that way. There's only a few shows that actually I think made money.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Right. Well, and they own several and it was, let's just be honest. It was the good old boys network back then.

• 56:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  I mean, I mentioned this on several podcasts. Do you, does anyone remember Jimmy Big Time?

• 56:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I do. Cause he filmed me on hunts.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Bro, that dude was hilarious.

• 56:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I loved him.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  If, if they, and I've said this to everybody, if they remade Jimmy Big Time today, it would be the number one show in three months.

• 56:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, people are more, now with social media, they're more, they, they would get it more.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 57:00Cameron Hanes?

  We didn't get it back. I mean, hunters didn't get it. They're just like, they're like got offended or some shit. So it's like, do you guys get satire?

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Why is he being, why is he eating Doritos in the stand after telling everybody to be quiet?

• 57:13Cameron Hanes?

  Do you get satire?

• 57:14Speaker 01

  He's joking.

• 57:15Cameron Hanes?

  You know, satire is confusing for idiots. I mean, they just don't get it. It's Babylon B. People are just like, what? Could you believe this? It's like, that's a little bit of truth, but do you understand how this works?

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. So at what point, so do you think it was the fact that you didn't immediately dabble deep into the whitetail side of things that made you not get a show? Or because right now, I mean, let's just be honest, scheduling wise right now, if you want to be on network, you, you can't have a bear and elk and mule deer only show. You can't kill enough in a year to get enough content.

• 57:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause like you need 12 shows, basically.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Minimum. Minimum. And so how much you think that played into it that you weren't necessarily dabbling in the whitetail side, which is the moneymaker?

• 58:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, probably because whitetails always dominated the market. It still does. I mean, even, you know, there's a big, I was with like a lot of the camel companies when they first started getting into the Western pattern. And it was just a smaller part of the market, but they want to own everything. So they'd be like, oh, we better have a Western pattern. But, uh, but generally it was like, if you're not killing big whitetail, those guys love outdoor channel viewers. Love sitting down and watching big whitetail. Right. It's, that's most the viewers. That's most the hunters. So Western hunting, what it did make it tougher. But then you started to get into Eastman's did a good job of this of selling the dream, right?

• 58:51Cameron Hanes?

  The like, you know, you're, you're not from the West, but you dream of hunting the West, you know? And so now we can help you get tags at the MRS section, then Huntfool came on and all these places about getting tags. That was the thing like, okay, do you have a dream of killing a big bull? We can help. So we got into the dream part of it, which helped me for sure. Cause I, that was what I was doing. But yeah, I think it's a bottom line. Um, attention is currency. If you have the white, the biggest part of the market, that's a lot of attention. That's, you got that value. Right. I just didn't have it, I guess.

• 59:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I do think we're missing a part here, which is you also have to find a cameraman that can survive one hunt with Cam, let alone 12.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Uh, that would fall into the category of if Cam ever asked me to go hunting, the answer would probably be no. Cause I'm not good enough. That's, you're a hundred percent right. And so, and I, look, I know how mentally tough you are. I actually, we ran into each other at Hoyt. Two thousand sixteen or seventeen.

• 1:00:02Cameron Hanes?

  I was gonna say, yeah.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Right after you ran that Death Valley shoot.

• 1:00:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Or that Death Valley run.

• 1:00:07Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  I don't know how you were walking. You didn't even look like you wanted to be alive in the moment.

• 1:00:13Cameron Hanes?

  Probably didn't.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  So I know mentally you are extremely tough.

• 1:00:17Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  How, how did you process as someone who was used to winning?

• 1:00:22Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Or at least used to competing. Winings, we all want to win.

• 1:00:27Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Not everybody competes. And there's a big difference. And we can get into the difference between competing and winning. So how did you mentally process the, I'm not gonna have a show?

• 1:00:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that was, I, I don't know. I, it put a big chip on my shoulder for sure. But like, when you talk about competing versus winning, yeah, we all want to win. But there's something about, like, I've been competing my whole life. That's what people, I think, sort of forget. Cause, I mean, I've had to fight for everything.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:02Cameron Hanes?

  So I've been competing, like, even just athletically since I was five. Right? So when you're like, when you grow up competing, you're different.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:12Cameron Hanes?

  You're just different. It's just, that's just the way it goes. So to me, life has always been competing. And that was just another one where, okay, you, watch this. I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure you know you made the biggest mistake by not giving me this opportunity.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:30Cameron Hanes?

  And it was hard back then because to get opportunity, either, either like a magazine had to give you a column or a space in the magazine. The TV show had to give you airtime or, you know, a sponsor had to pay for the airtime or the Outdoor Channel had to give you airtime and then they would sell the sponsorships.

• 1:01:50Cameron Hanes?

  Or, uh, yeah, you wrote a book or you had sponsors like Hoyt or, you know, your camera company that believed in you and they would market you.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:58Cameron Hanes?

  But at some point, it came down to like, how are you proving you're better than everyone else? So it's always been that. And when I didn't get the TV thing, because I had to rely on other people for that to happen, I'm like, that's why social media for me and the internet has been, that was two thousand eight. I remember this specifically because it caused a huge issue. It caused me leaving Eastman's. It's like this whole thing where I was like, finally, like, wait, I can be in, in charge of? Of of me, who sees me?

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:31Cameron Hanes?

  And you know, these, I'm not saying Eastman's wanted to keep me down or whatever, but it was just changing the landscape.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:02:39Cameron Hanes?

  Right? And I kind of recognized it and with Eastman's, the thing was I, my last name was never Eastman.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:47Cameron Hanes?

  So it was like, it's, I'm, I'm not Guy Eastman, I'm not Ike Eastman, I'm not Mike, I was never gonna be.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:52Cameron Hanes?

  So it was like, I understand family loyalty for sure. And then I was like, sort of the outsider, I'm very appreciative for all that I got. But at 2008, I was just like, holy shit, maybe I don't need anybody anymore. Maybe I can do this my, myself. And it wasn't like that was, it was like, it wasn't a come to Jesus moment and I quit or anything like that. It was great. I mean, I'm, I, nothing but respect for those guys, but it was just 2008 changed everything. And for somebody like me, I could be like, I, if I can say what I want, I can post what I want, I can share whatever picture I want, I don't need anyone. Oh, you don't want to give me a TV show? Guess what? I'll make, I'll put it

• 1:03:34Cameron Hanes?

  out myself. And so that's, that's been huge for somebody like me.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Well, absolutely. And I, I mean, I've been watching the whole time and I can tell you this, my personal opinion is they did you a favor.

• 1:03:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  The folks that didn't give you a television show?

• 1:03:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, prob, it's worked out. Okay, yeah.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  They did you a favor.

• 1:03:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  And in turn, they did the industry a favor. Because had they not lit that fire into your ass, not that you needed one.

• 1:03:59Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  But had that not happened, the platform you've built, the way you've built it in its current form, wouldn't be here.

• 1:04:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  So whoever it was that told you no, I think they did you a favor.

• 1:04:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I mean, it didn't feel like I always needed to thank anybody at that time. It was more like, I want to burn everyone down. But now, because if I look, if I think about it now, so let's think about this. We did this, our stats, end of the year stats, but, um, so our videos got 10 million views, which is, uh, 200,000 views a week.

• 1:04:41Cameron Hanes?

  Two hundred thousand times fifty-two, isn't that? That'd be ten million.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  Bout.

• 1:04:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. So, two hu- no outdoor channel shows are getting two hundred thousand views a week.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  Not even close.

• 1:04:53Cameron Hanes?

  So, and the podcast gets eighty thousand list downloads.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:57Cameron Hanes?

  And when I talk about attention is currency, that's, that's valuable.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:02Cameron Hanes?

  So if you think about this platform now, to your point, way more than TV could have given me as far as reaching people, influencing people, sharing what I love to share. So yeah, I am very thankful. But from two thousand eight, this has been a while.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:20Cameron Hanes?

  Eighteen years, right? And it's paid off a little bit before this, so maybe fifteen years. But fifteen years is a long time just to grind and feel like you're getting screwed.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:30Cameron Hanes?

  And that's what I did. I felt like I was getting screwed. Part of it was like, I need, I have a regular job, so maybe I'm not fully invested like I should be. Maybe that's me. So I like, I had my own doubts myself. But when I, if you look back on it now, right now, to make it, or to be like, at, at the pinnacle of the industry, I've been lucky in that we have YouTube, we have the podcast, we have great photos, which are, that's more content, that's more attention, that's more currency. Um, I write books. I got a lot of media out there.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:04Cameron Hanes?

  So like for my partners, it's very valuable. And I bring that up to say that I've done this. Anybody has this opportunity now.

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:14Cameron Hanes?

  All the things I just mentioned, all those platforms, you can, anybody can do it.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Anybody can do it if they have the integrity not to pitch snake oil.

• 1:06:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's, that's also tough.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  And like myself, you're a kiss guy. Keep it simple, stupid.

• 1:06:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  Like, you don't see me every other day pitching some tiny little stupid gadget, knickknack, bric-a-brac. We just don't do it.

• 1:06:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  And so that's played, that's played a huge part in, I can't, you know, I think your success too is that once you decided to go out and do it on your own, you were like, well, here's how I'm gonna do it. And that's just what it is.

• 1:06:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  You know, you and I have had the conversation of, you know, when you, you know, and I've been on the sponsor, I've been on both sides, but I've been on this, the company sponsorship side a lot. And when you start talking about the contracts, you start talking about deliverables.

• 1:07:09Cameron Hanes?

  And through your own work, you've gotten to the part where it's like, y'all see what I do? Hmm.

• 1:07:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Um, this is what I do. Yeah, I don't, I'm like those contracts that come in with the deliverables. I'm just like, I mean, we, we had this, I remember, I think it was, maybe it's Looper said this at one time, but uh, they brought up that I don't tag Hoyt, right? This is, but this is years ago. Looper hasn't been there for a while, but I, I love Tim too. Now it's Jeremy Eldridge and, you know, I, I don't, nothing but positive with Hoyt. Right. Um, but uh, they said, oh, you never tag Hoyt. And I'm like, I don't tag anybody. They said, and so I just said, well, who sells the most bows for you? You do. I'm like,

• 1:07:57Cameron Hanes?

  What's the problem? What, what are we talking about? So it's uh, figuring out that game and just like, and just, and also just knowing, I, I just knew, I just knew my value. I knew, and I was like, I don't know, aware enough to know what post that that, when this landscape changed, what worked and what didn't, because I still see people who still don't get it. They'll put up a post, say if it's a, a, anything, they're showing their arrows, they're tagging Trager grills. So it's like, what the are you doing? It's completely worthless. Right. What you just did. And it's also devaluing the rest of your shit. So when you do mention them, you've mentioned them in every post, so it doesn't mean anything.

• 1:08:43Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Well, and the, and the algorithm is always watching. Yeah, right. And it's, Hundred percent. Yeah, I don't, I'm not, I don't know the algorithm. That seems like it's changing a little bit. I just know that the hashtags, the tagging, every sponsor you ever had, I just, it never really,

• 1:09:01Cameron Hanes?

  Got to where it felt like people were hoping it would get them to.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  They actually just changed that on Instagram, I think, from where guys used to tag this many sponsors.

• 1:09:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  I think now you can only tag three or five.

• 1:09:13Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, really?

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, they changed it because it's.

• 1:09:15Cameron Hanes?

  I never did it.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  It's stupid. It's like you look at all these tags and you're just like, I'm not clicking or looking at any of that shit.

• 1:09:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  So, so like when it comes to equipment, this is something that I, that I think, you know, you are, you know, specifically qualified to discuss is kind of the keep it simple, stupid method. You know, and we talked about speed bows and like we said, there's only one company really right now that did. And it's not like you see PSE, you know, marketing that bow every five minutes. I mean, I talked to a couple of other people in the industry about that, about speed bows before I came over here. Companies that back in the day were in that fight. And with all the speed bow marketing, it was never equaled 5% of their sales.

• 1:10:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  And so it may, might get someone in the door, but that's generally not what they're buying.

• 1:10:05Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  And so for you, like you don't change a lot. Like at all.

• 1:10:11Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  And so when you start, and this is something I think is, you know, look, archers love to tinker. We all know that.

• 1:10:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  I love to tinker. I just don't tinker with unknown variables. Like I don't just all of a sudden try a different product in a category just because I think I want to try it.

• 1:10:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  If something's working, that's just what I do. And so for you, having the unit of measure that you do, you know, hunting wise, and I know that, you know, like with Jelly, by the way, great job on that first buck of his, that was.

• 1:10:44Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  That was freaking awesome.

• 1:10:46Cameron Hanes?

  That was the best.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  You know, and, and Joe, Joe Rogan, and you know, any of the other people that you help. And I know that you, Jelly and Joe are the, are the, you know, flagships, but you, you work with other people behind the scenes that you don't talk about.

• 1:10:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  So I appreciate that. But when it comes to equipment, I think archers get misled a lot.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Uh, not just speed bow wise, but just every knick knack, bric-a-brac.

• 1:11:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's marketing.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's like, marketing has creative license. And so, you know, when I start thinking about things that are, that I want to change or play with, dude, I put them through rigorous testing before I ever hit the field with it.

• 1:11:26Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  And so, you know, I haven't changed hardly any, you know, what's my most recent thing that I'm even?

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  I guess veins would be the really, the only thing that I've.

• 1:11:37Cameron Hanes?

  What do you change?

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Uh, I'm, I put a shit ton of work into the DCAs, the super savers and the mini savers.

• 1:11:46Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  Um, they're the ones that are shaped funny.

• 1:11:48Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Period.

• 1:11:49Cameron Hanes?

  With it, like have the thing?

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it comes up like this and goes boop, boop.

• 1:11:53Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  And so that's for a reason.

• 1:11:55Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  And so, you know, I've said this on other podcasts, I, I can get a vein to do any goddamn thing I want.

• 1:12:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  Period.

• 1:12:05Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Give me a hunting arrow, certain vein, I can get it to do anything I want. So for me, the only thing that I really look for at this point is uh, how, how quiet it is and how well it does in the wind.

• 1:12:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  Because I can get any of them to hit an animal.

• 1:12:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  I, I mean, let's just be honest.

• 1:12:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  And so that's kind of really the only thing that I've changed, but I still, I still hunt with a 20 year old aluminum HT hinge. Uh, you know, my spot hog side is probably 10 years old.

• 1:12:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  You know, and I'll get the new bow here and there, but you know, new equipment and look, the industry needs people to buy new equipment. Don't get me wrong.

• 1:12:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  We appreciate it. I was down at the, I was hanging down at the bow rack before I came over here and this guy was in there and he was all, he literally goes, hey, man, I want to thank you guys. You guys got my bow tuned up great. I robin hooded an arrow this morning.

• 1:12:55Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  And everyone's like, oh yeah. And I said,

• 1:13:00Cameron Hanes?

  The arrow industry appreciates your business. There's two arrows right there. You gotta, you gotta leave the arrow in the other one. Yeah, at first you do. For, for us, we're like, god damn it. Yeah, well, I don't know because nowadays, like the arrows I shoot, I think are about $50 a piece. That's what I'm talking about, right? I'm not, I'm not, you don't see any robin hoods around here. Also, I don't shoot at the same spot all the time, but uh, Right. Yeah, it's uh, to your point though, also, I don't tinker. I'm like, I don't give a what's out. I, if I know what works, it takes a while for, like, I didn't, I didn't switch to blazers for a long time.

• 1:13:38Cameron Hanes?

  Cause I had these, the four or five inch, whatever the they were, were they, maybe they're boning still, but anyway, they weren't the short. Right. It took me a while to, to switch to that. And then I went to the AAE, the, you know, those. Max stealth. Yeah, the, the, those veins, four veins on that. And again, you can say whatever the you want, but as far as hunting goes, that makes my arrow fly the, the best, the most perfect, when I everything up. Right. When I punched the trigger, when maybe my level didn't get to where, cause that, like the bull in the window hog wasn't gonna stop. I have no idea what my level was doing. I'm, I look at it, but at that moment, I just had to shoot.

• 1:14:21Cameron Hanes?

  So, point is, in the heat of the moment, moment, like split second decision, all my equipment performs. Right. So I, yeah, do I have, do you need four veins? Probably not. When you're standing on the line, when there's no environmental factors going on. Right. Yeah. Do whatever you want. If we're like, heat of the moment through, you know, whatever, you're, you got a pack on, you're tired, you're everything else. I wanna make sure, when I punch that trigger, like I know I do, that arrow is still flying perfect. So that's my only goal with everything. That's why it's a heavy arrow. That's why it's a tall brace hat. That's why it's a four veins.

• 1:15:01Cameron Hanes?

  That's why it's the most straight arrow in the, in, in the world. Because it's for less than optimal situations. Not we're not designing to be perfect under with everything perfect.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:13Cameron Hanes?

  We're designing to be as close to perfect with everything.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Up. Correct forgiveness. It's all about forgiveness.

• 1:15:19Cameron Hanes?

  Forgiveness. That's it. And all these people get worked up like forgiveness over speed. It's like, is this still? Like I said the other day, it's still a thing. We're still talking about this shit.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:29Cameron Hanes?

  What do you? What do you mean?

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, like every, every hunting bow that is not designated a hunt, a speed bow are literally all within 10 to 12 feet a second.

• 1:15:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  All of them.

• 1:15:41Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  All of them.

• 1:15:43Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  You know, and it's like, you know, like right now, the big thing is, you know, everyone, you know, how many carbon bows are there on the market now? Four.

• 1:15:51Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  Hoyt, PSE, Elite and Botec all have carbon bows.

• 1:15:55Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  Some of them are heavy.

• 1:15:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Two of them are heavy.

• 1:16:00Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Heavier than aluminum.

• 1:16:02Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, really?

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  So what are we doing?

• 1:16:04Cameron Hanes?

  They're very close.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  Though those ones aren't.

• 1:16:07Cameron Hanes?

  Well, even like, even in the, even in the heyday, it was like, what? Of the heyday of light bows.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Oh, right, right.

• 1:16:14Cameron Hanes?

  It was like three to four, like three for the carbon, four for the aluminum, or was it five for the aluminum?

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  It was a right around four, four, four point seven to four point nine for aluminum and the carbons were in the high threes.

• 1:16:26Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. To me, again, just like speed, that's just marketing. That's just marketing. It's like, cause you, we put all this shit on the bow afterwards.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  I was just gonna say.

• 1:16:36Cameron Hanes?

  I got the back bar. I got the, the other bar. I got the, all the shit.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:41Cameron Hanes?

  Cause I want that quiet. Cause I'm hunting and I want it, I want it to hold.

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  Well, you have to hold it still.

• 1:16:47Cameron Hanes?

  I wanted to hold still. I want, I'm going to shoot one time. One time. I want that one arrow to be perfect. And for that bow, maybe because I trunched punch the trigger, maybe a heavier bow reacts. Uh, slower to me punching.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  It's a fact.

• 1:17:02Cameron Hanes?

  And so that's why I do all that. That's why I've never shot a carbon. I don't give a about how much shit weighs. I'm trying to put that arrow in the lungs.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  Dude, I'll tell you one of the, I'll tell you one of the things that resonated with me. Like I like Joe and I listen to his stuff. One of the things he said that hit home for me the most was when he first started hunting with you, and I don't know where you guys were hunting, but he said that you were like, we need to get up this hill. And you're Cam Haynes, you're just like beep beep beep beep up this hill, no big deal. And Joe's explaining when he got to the top of the hill, he literally was wanted to die.

• 1:17:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  Well, that's when you got might have to shoot.

• 1:17:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  And if, look, I got a buddy, Dave Madden up in Alaska and okay, depending on who you are, if you want to build a sub five pound total bow to hike 27 miles back into the whatever, whatever. Yeah, okay, you can get away with that. But for the rest of humanity, a heavier bow is going to be steadier and a heavier bow is going to be harder to move.

• 1:18:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  And by move, I mean, when you're doing this.

• 1:18:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  Or if you're Joe Rogan and you just tried to follow Cam Haynes up a hill and your heart rate's like 190 and shit's moving all over the place, you got to make a shot. So the light bow is kind of an oxymoron because yeah, we put stabilizers on there with all the weight. We put sights that in rests and quivers and we, we put all this, hunting bows are generally six to seven pounds anyway.

• 1:18:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  And so, you know, and this is the thing that I've heard forever. And this is kind of the way I was, I want to say brought up, but way back in the day, they would say, well, what are you going to sacrifice? You only get to shoot once. Are you going to bring less food and water?

• 1:18:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  The answer for me is absolutely not.

• 1:18:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  My miles per gallon sucks.

• 1:18:59Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  But no, I'm not bringing less food and water, but I'll bring something less if I have to a certain weight limit on a pack.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  But hopefully you're only shooting one arrow.

• 1:19:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Don't compromise on that.

• 1:19:14Cameron Hanes?

  Right. That's, that's why we're there.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:17Cameron Hanes?

  That's all this other shit. We're there to kill an animal.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:22Cameron Hanes?

  So if it's not helping that. I don't give a about it. And it's like, everything that's on my bow, every reason I I choose what's on my bow, or what I use, is only for that one thing.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:33Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, uh, you know, I, so when I see that, when I see the lightest bow on the market, or the fastest bow on the market, to me, it's just like, it's just bells and whistles, it's just a selling point. It does not, I want the most accurate bow on the market, and that's what can't be measured. Because what do you, if you're gonna measure with a Hooter Shooter, they're all pretty damn accurate, because that's a perfect controlled situation.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:58Cameron Hanes?

  So we're never really truly getting the most accurate unless you're putting it in this hunter's hands with all the shit weighing in, kind of up your process.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:09Cameron Hanes?

  That's how you figure it out. So we can't all do that. I just know these, these attributes that I need to give me the most confidence in what I have seen help me deliver a lethal arrow as often as possible.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I mean, look, if if you go back 20 years in archery, it was a speed race.

• 1:20:27Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  If you go back 30 years, it was a speed race.

• 1:20:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  30 years ago, companies were challenging each other to come to the ATA show and shoot through a chronograph. And that went all the way up through the PSEX Force and the Matthews Monster and

• 1:20:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  Botek with their Destroyer, like, there was a speed race in archery.

• 1:20:46Cameron Hanes?

  And that's fun. It's fun to shoot an arrow and see how fast it is.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that shit was 10, 15 years ago. And guess why it went by the wayside? Because less than 5% of the market bought them.

• 1:20:56Cameron Hanes?

  Because nobody gives a really.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  No, they don't. They're like, literally, they don't. And so that's part of that whole mentality is people get distracted with things they think they want, but they're not things they need.

• 1:21:10Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  And that's the thing that I've always respected about you is it's like, Yeah, it's like myself, I say, if you told me wearing a pink thong would make me shoot better in a tournament.

• 1:21:22Cameron Hanes?

  Where are they?

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  Uh, where in the hell are those forty inch?

• 1:21:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I'm on it. And so, and you're the same. It's like, I don't care what I want. Right.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  It's what I need.

• 1:21:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, what's, what's gonna help me get to achieve my goal? It's, um, yeah, I don't know. I, I think people get, I love that people get worked up though. I love that we care this much, you know, so all these guys that made the video and the PSC Sicario and even PSC tagged me. Love it.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  They did?

• 1:21:49Cameron Hanes?

  Love it. Yeah, I, it's.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  They should have.

• 1:21:53Cameron Hanes?

  It's great.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:54Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, I, I wanna, I wanna celebrate this shit. I want, so I've been around long enough and it's like, I wonder if I, if I say this, tell me what you think, but it's like, here's what it always was like back in the day. I shot PSC because at first I liked the, the red PSC, remember the stickers everybody had?

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:22:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, those popped, those are sick. So I had a PSC hat, cool logo. Oh, then they made me the bow, but they had the Mach six, it was eleven hundred dollars. How good must this be? It must be amazing. So they had like pretty good marketing, but then it was like Matthews, anytime I'd shoot a Matthews, it wasn't the high, the best performing bow for performance, but God, that thing pulled good. It was so smooth to pull and like you, it's quiet and smooth and quiet. And you're like, well, it's not gonna, it's not a screamer.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:22:45Cameron Hanes?

  But man, comfortable to shoot. Hoyt, they had just, I mean, they just looked sick. Those tech risers or where the hell they were that they'd look so good. Like that riser right over there, that battle worn, whatever, such a good looking bow. Do you see that battle worn Hoyt's in there?

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:23:04Cameron Hanes?

  But, um, even back before that, like they just looked like the engineering seemed better than everybody else because of how they looked. Right? And it just looked like it could perform.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:16Cameron Hanes?

  And then I shot one, I'm like, then they're bulletproof. I've never, like I talked about this, I went through three limbs on, on these bows. I've never had a failure with a Hoyt. So I've been shooting them now since two thousand and five. So what is twenty one years? Never had a failure? How? How does that happen?

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Well, they run over their shit with trucks.

• 1:23:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  I mean, like.

• 1:23:36Cameron Hanes?

  And dry fire it 1,500 times.

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  Dude, it's ridiculous.

• 1:23:38Cameron Hanes?

  So it's, it's, it's crazy. So if I talk, if I think about these, these big, um, these big brands, it's always like the, there's only a couple of things that stick out that catch your attention. The Matthews comfortable to shoot. The Hoyt, God, just looked like a performer and then is bulletproof. And then the PSE, they had that thing for a while. That was kind of cool. Now, if people are talking about PSC Sicario, great. Awesome. I love it. Just not the greatest hunting bow. Yeah. Can people kill? Of course, of course. You can kill with anything. I'm just talking about, we're talking about optimizing.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:16Cameron Hanes?

  So I know some kid or some guy tagged me. He shot a 300 and he's killed his stuff. I'm like, awesome. I love it. I couldn't shoot a 300 right now, so you're better than me. So it's like, I have, I don't, I'm not taking this shit personal.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:30Cameron Hanes?

  Unless you want me to, then I can. But yeah, I just, I just love it all. I love the whole industry and I want everybody to kick ass is my point. I just think a lot of it is just playing the marketing game, which is fine. That's how it works.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Well, and I mean, and that's part, part of that is it's like, okay, look, even the guys that made the videos, even the guys that said stuff, then before their video ends, they say, well, we know they don't tune as easy and we know they don't hold, you gotta work a little harder to get them to hold. And yeah, they're a little less forgiving because of the shorter brace height than, you know, with the high lead off, the string tension, you know, but it totally works. And it's like.

• 1:25:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Bro, you literally just explained Cam's exact point.

• 1:25:15Cameron Hanes?

  All right. Yeah. It's a, I, I said it a little abrupt on that version. I've said it before, but I'd said, cause I mentioned Sicario, then I mentioned, you know, just, you won't hit shit. That's not true. Obviously you can hit stuff. I'm not, so don't get too worked up, but yeah. It was.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  Well, it's the same thing as if I would have said to you, Cam, and I could imagine the look on your face right now. If I said, yeah, I got a 32 inch draw length. I shoot 70 pounds. I have one arrow build that's 350 and one arrow build that's a thousand.

• 1:25:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  You would be like.

• 1:25:46Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  What? What, what are you doing?

• 1:25:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  Like, why?

• 1:25:52Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I want one that shoots super fast and one that doesn't.

• 1:25:56Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  No, there's a window.

• 1:25:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  And most everybody that we know operates within that window.

• 1:26:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  It, you know, and so if, if we were to get paper and write down my build and your build and Joe's build and what you did for Jelly and Wayne Indicots and Levi Morgans, and if we were to write down all of the normal folk that we, we know.

• 1:26:21Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  All of those builds would fall under a window.

• 1:26:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Pete, 90% of the people that just walk into an archery shop and buy a hunting rig, don't buy in that window.

• 1:26:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  They sub 400 grain arrows, so, you know, and so all of these things that come into play. So your comment was, was appropriate. It's just, it's the internet. So.

• 1:26:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  You know, it is what it is. And so, so I guess, you know, for me, I'm all about accuracy.

• 1:26:50Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  And I don't hunt near as much as you do. And so for me, you know, I do shoot tournaments and, but I do hunt as well. And so for me, I don't care what it is. All I care about is accuracy.

• 1:27:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  And that's it.

• 1:27:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  And so, I mean, you know, I don't have, you know, I don't need an archery shop necessarily per se down in Klammer Falls where I'm at. You know, it's kind of, kind of a, a different thing, but you know, the, the community aspect of what archery does, and this is something that I wanted to ask you about. I, you know, I talked, talked with Jeff Poole from the ATA a couple of weeks ago. And it was, uh, the dreaded crossbow situation.

• 1:27:31Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, fuck.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:27:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  And so, you know, my thing on the crossbow deal is, well, look, they're not going away.

• 1:27:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  They're half the market.

• 1:27:39Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  But the recreational side, and Jeff did bring up a good point, so I wanted to get your opinion on this. And so my thing is FET and all that other bullshit aside, but is that the recreational culture side of crossbow archery is not where it is for upright archery. Like you and I could be like, hey, let's meet at the Cascadian out there. I'm over in town. Let's go shoot a bunch of arrows.

• 1:28:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. We go out there and shoot a couple hundred arrows, have a good time, shoot for dollars, blah, blah, blah. Crossbow people don't do that because their bows can't.

• 1:28:14Cameron Hanes?

  Well, and they don't need to, to be accurate.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Right, but that's the recreational culture part of it. We enjoy it.

• 1:28:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. There's, there's not a community. There's not like, well, like on my page where I, I just, my bio is just bow hunter.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:29Cameron Hanes?

  Nobody's saying crossbow hunter. Nobody's like proud of that. Like, it's like, it's, you do it so you can hunt during bow season and it's sort of like, whatever. It's not that cool. It's allowed.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:42Cameron Hanes?

  But bow hunting, bow hunters are a community.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:47Cameron Hanes?

  And passion and they care and it matters and you practice and you, you're obsessed about this shit. Crossbow people, they don't have to be obsessed about it. They can, they can just go out. I've never even shot one. So what, I don't know what the I'm talking about, but I've talked to people who say, hey, here's the accurate they are all the way out to here. You just do this. You hold it on, whatever. It's just not the same.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  No, at all.

• 1:29:11Cameron Hanes?

  You don't have to live and die like I do for archery to be accurate with the crossbow.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:29:18Cameron Hanes?

  This shit doesn't matter that much. So if it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  Right. Well, so Jeff Poole brought up a point that I wanted to get your opinion on, and he said, because look, you and I both know that archery, as we know it, still relatively young. The ATA is young, hunting television is now getting ready to transition to something totally different. And so, but we're still developing.

• 1:29:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  And so, compound bows, however.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Are not. They are, I don't want to use the word plateaued, but yeah, they've plateaued. And so the, you get an incremental changes there.

• 1:29:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  Well, Jeff Poole brought up a good point and he said, and I don't know if I wholly agree with this, but I want to get your opinion. Is Jeff Poole said, he's the president of the ATA, by the way, that perhaps the maturation or the growth of crossbows is in its infancy compared to upright bows. And it got me thinking.

• 1:30:20Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  You remember the magnesium bows back in the nineties where you could get about 2,500 shots and then they broke right at the handle.

• 1:30:28Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  And then we went through, you know, all kinds of growth sectors of archery with dependability.

• 1:30:34Cameron Hanes?

  Well, magnesium was Oregon bows, right?

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  Uh, well, PSE had them, Oregon bows had them, like, yeah.

• 1:30:40Cameron Hanes?

  I broke one right in half at the handle.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. And they literally had a shot clock. Like, how many shots have you made? Uh, it's about to break.

• 1:30:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  And so

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  I can't wholly disagree with him. I don't know as if that will fix that recreational culture aspect of a crossbow guy going and shooting 200 arrows for practice because he likes it.

• 1:31:01Cameron Hanes?

  I don't, I think that's completely different.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, but right now you can't shoot 100 in a day. The thing won't last.

• 1:31:07Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, really?

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:31:08Cameron Hanes?

  I don't, I don't think, I just don't think people care enough to shoot that much.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't either.

• 1:31:14Cameron Hanes?

  So I don't think that the bow changing or more durability is going to make people care more.

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  Right. And that's what I've been kind of pondering. So I was just.

• 1:31:22Cameron Hanes?

  I, I don't, I don't think so. I mean, I don't, I don't think that's the reason why it hasn't exploded or hasn't, or you say it's 50%, but I don't. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I don't have a good gate. I mean, we don't even, I don't know anybody who even shoots one.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  I don't either.

• 1:31:39Cameron Hanes?

  So.

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  But, and it's not necessarily a left coast thing.

• 1:31:42Cameron Hanes?

  Or that emit shooting one.

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, look here.

• 1:31:45Cameron Hanes?

  Cause you can just say you're gay and you don't have to shoot a crossbow.

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  Right. And I mean, for the record, and I'll, I've, I'll have.

• 1:31:54Cameron Hanes?

  Settle down.

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:55Cameron Hanes?

  Calm down.

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  Calm your.

• 1:31:56Cameron Hanes?

  Joke.

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  Calm your.

• 1:31:57Cameron Hanes?

  This isn't shit talkers, but it's all love, baby.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  You know, and.

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  Oh, that's pretty good. But, you know, it's just a matter of, you know, what are we going to do collectively?

• 1:32:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  And it's just my opinion, and I'll say this in front of God and everybody. I don't think crossbow should be allowed during regular archery.

• 1:32:20Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  It's just my opinion.

• 1:32:21Cameron Hanes?

  Hell no.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  Just my opinion.

• 1:32:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  I'm not saying that crossbows need to go away. I'm saying that they should probably be with like muzzleloaders.

• 1:32:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, they got the same range as a muzzleloader.

• 1:32:32Speaker 01

  That's just, well, I've shot shit at a hundred, so I should probably shut my suckhole.

• 1:32:36Cameron Hanes?

  Well, no, but I heard crossbows out to 200 are pretty damn accurate.

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  It can be, yes.

• 1:32:41Cameron Hanes?

  Then you're like, well, how much does that bolt or whatever the it is weigh? So how much is it going to bounce off at 200? Where, you know, muzzleloaders, they are, there's people shooting 300 with a muzzleloader. So I don't even, shit's changing, but yeah, we can shoot 100 with our compound bow. And you would think that our compound bow at 100 probably is at least as lethal, maybe more than a crossbow, just because of kinetic energy. But I'm also not factoring in, I think crossbows are like, what, 400, 500 feet a second?

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:33:16Cameron Hanes?

  So maybe not. So maybe I don't know what the I'm talking about.

• 1:33:18Speaker 01

  Well, plus, I mean, look, there's also, we could nerd out on a bunch of trajectory ballistic bullshit, but a longer projectile is more stable than a shorter projectile.

• 1:33:31Cameron Hanes?

  So she said.

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  Period, right? It's all about penetration cam. And so, but yeah, I mean, and so, you know, the crossbow thing to me seems, you know, relatively black and white. The problem is right now, I just don't think.

• 1:33:43Cameron Hanes?

  Coffee?

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just don't think that that we collectively right now have agreed on a direction. And, you know, and this is not to, you know, further demean that community, but I don't, I don't think that they're going to willingly go.

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  To the muzzleloader season.

• 1:34:02Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  I just don't.

• 1:34:03Cameron Hanes?

  But that's, that's all right. We.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:05Cameron Hanes?

  We can make, I don't know if we can make that happen, but just with, that's just regulations and that's just getting the right person's ear basically to say why it's different, why it makes sense for this or that. But that's a logical way to do it. So I would think generally logic wins out, but who knows?

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Right. No, absolutely.

• 1:34:27Cameron Hanes?

  Who knows?

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  It's one of those things.

• 1:34:29Cameron Hanes?

  I wish that, I mean, to your point on Jeff Poole and the ATA, or wait, Jeff Poole?

• 1:34:35Speaker 01

  No relation.

• 1:34:36Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Yeah, I got it. Then I was like, am I screwing up his name? Cause it's your name, but uh,

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:41Cameron Hanes?

  It's not, you're not married.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:34:43Cameron Hanes?

  To him.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:34:45Cameron Hanes?

  No, I'd love for the ATA to uh, kick ass again. It was fun.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  Well, you know what's happening next week or this week?

• 1:34:53Cameron Hanes?

  ATA, right?

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so the first two days.

• 1:34:55Cameron Hanes?

  I won't be there.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I didn't have to go, but I want to go because of the changes they're making. So the first two days are still business to business.

• 1:35:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  And then the other two days, um, you can, consumers can actually buy a ticket and come walk around the ATA. And then of course the Rushmore Rumble Archery Tournament's there. So, look, I'm balls deep in this. So I want to be there to see the transition from the business to business to the consumer.

• 1:35:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  And then how the archery event kind of commingles with all of that.

• 1:35:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  Cause like, I'll just be honest. If 1,000 consumers buy tickets to come walk around the ATA,

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  that shit's a rap.

• 1:35:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:39Speaker 01

  Rap. That's an absolute rap.

• 1:35:42Cameron Hanes?

  Without the celebrities there, how many people are going to pay to go do that? What's your guess?

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  They need to have at least 10,000 and I, I don't know as if.

• 1:35:55Cameron Hanes?

  So five thousand, two days, 5,000 a day?

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  Oh, 10,000 a day.

• 1:36:01Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Well, do you know how many people go to the Harrisburg show?

• 1:36:04Cameron Hanes?

  A lot.

• 1:36:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, a million people. It's a mile long.

• 1:36:07Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  And so it's 11 days. The Harrisburg show in Pennsylvania is 11 days. You go to the Iowa, you go to the, the Iowa deer classic and you go to a lot of these other shows, bro, it's hundreds of thousands of people.

• 1:36:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, but the celebrities are there, right?

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  A lot of them.

• 1:36:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I think a lot of people go to see the Lee and Tiffany and what else?

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Not like they used to.

• 1:36:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  But yes.

• 1:36:32Cameron Hanes?

  To those other shows, not to ATA I'm talking about like.

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and they're not all at those, but yes, and a lot of those, they go and run their own booth.

• 1:36:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  And they sell swag. It would be like.

• 1:36:42Cameron Hanes?

  Tons of merch.

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it would be like you coming with a keep hammering booth.

• 1:36:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  And you're there doing the gripping grans with people and you know, you got your people slinging swag.

• 1:36:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  Um, that's basically how those work, but they're massive.

• 1:36:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  If the ATA can transition and grab some of that vibe.

• 1:36:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Because I just don't know if 10,000 people a day, which if the Iowa deer classic had 10,000 people a day come through there, they'd shut down.

• 1:37:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it'd be dead.

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  They'd be like, this didn't work.

• 1:37:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I guess I don't know how many, I know, I know the Harrisburg show gets millions, I think in that.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  One million.

• 1:37:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  Over 11 days.

• 1:37:19Cameron Hanes?

  Right. So that's, that's awesome.

• 1:37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you know, I went.

• 1:37:22Cameron Hanes?

  I love that.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went to the show in Salt Lake City last year.

• 1:37:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  It was packed.

• 1:37:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, Western Hunt Expo.

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was packed.

• 1:37:29Cameron Hanes?

  No, it's definitely worked. It's definitely worked in those situations. Hopefully ATA can capitalize on that same approach.

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and, and I think what they need to do, and this is what I told Jeff off air, is you need to call Cam Haynes, you know, like, first of all, full disclosure, Hoyt's not there, Matthews is not there. There's heavy hitters are not there anymore.

• 1:37:52Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  And this is what I told Jeff. I actually quoted your book.

• 1:37:56Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:37:57Speaker 01

  I literally said, to quote my boy Cam Haynes' book, the ATA needs to be undeniable.

• 1:38:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  You shouldn't, you don't, the ATA needs to get to the point where we're not asking you to come.

• 1:38:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  You're telling us you have to come.

• 1:38:13Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:38:14Speaker 01

  And so, and that's what I told him, as I said, you need to get back to that point, but, you know, assuming that happens, but you need to get with, like, if I wanted Cam Haynes to come do an event, of course, I'd just text you and ask, but that's not the point.

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  Uh, it's like anything, like, like I used to always say, if you want to get Greg Poole to do something, convince his wife.

• 1:38:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  And then he's gonna do it.

• 1:38:36Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  But if I wanted Cam Haynes to come do an event, I'd call Jeremy.

• 1:38:41Cameron Hanes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:38:42Speaker 01

  I'd call Easton.

• 1:38:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  I'd call Sitka and be like, hey, guys, uh, here's what we're doing. Be cool if Cam was there. Because the ATA calling you, you're gonna be like, whoa, what are we talking about, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:38:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  If Sitka, Easton, and Hoyt are like, hey, Cam, we want you to be at this event, you're gonna be like, oh.

• 1:39:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:04Speaker 01

  I guess that's what we're doing.

• 1:39:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, it's a, there's a way, there's a way to do it for sure. It's just weird, it's not weird, but yeah, the business model's changing.

• 1:39:14Speaker 01

  That is, what kind of coffee is that? I know it's Black Rifle, that's not a shameless plug.

• 1:39:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, Black Rifle.

• 1:39:19Speaker 01

  What flavor?

• 1:39:20Cameron Hanes?

  I think it's the AK-47.

• 1:39:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:39:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. I like my boy, it's good.

• 1:39:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I love it.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  Good. I like my boy Kyle Lamb's Berserker Blend, too.

• 1:39:28Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm. I don't know if I've had that one.

• 1:39:31Speaker 01

  Speaking of.

• 1:39:32Cameron Hanes?

  Is it, is it Black Rifle?

• 1:39:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:34Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Kyle made a funny commercial with Matt in them years, you know, it's the Berserker Blend, it's pretty good, it's stout.

• 1:39:41Cameron Hanes?

  Maybe I have had it, I'll have to try.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  Speaking of.

• 1:39:43Cameron Hanes?

  What?

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  What's the holdup?

• 1:39:45Cameron Hanes?

  On mine?

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  I saw your post. I saw, I saw the Evan post with the, with the blackboard with all the names.

• 1:39:52Cameron Hanes?

  I know. Yeah, that was fun. Well, shit takes time. It's a, I never get too excited. I've heard a lot of, I'm not gonna say, I'm not, I'm not, I don't think that's an empty promise at all, but.

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:40:04Cameron Hanes?

  I've had a lot of empty promises over the years, so until it actually happens, I don't, I mean, it's gonna happen and, you know, me and Evan have a lot of shit going, and, uh, you know, it's his. What he has to go through to run that company is like, it's a lot of stress.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  Oh dude.

• 1:40:22Cameron Hanes?

  And it's a lot of responsibility. So I don't try to add to that. I think it'll happen, but I don't, I never get, I used to take all this shit personal.

• 1:40:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:40:31Cameron Hanes?

  Like when stuff, somebody, I remember one time when my sponsor said, hey, uh, we're gonna go to Africa. We're gonna pay for you to go to Africa. You're gonna be able to do all this. It's gonna be amazing. I'd never been to Africa at this time. I was like, oh my God, that, that's it. So I was like obsessed like, I'm going to Africa. They said, we're going to Africa. They said they, never happened.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:40:50Cameron Hanes?

  So that, once it happens, like maybe a hundred times, after a while, you're like, you know what? Let's just see what happens.

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. My funny Evan Hafer story is we're at TAC. And if you don't know who Evan Hafer is, go over in the corner and practice falling down. Cam will be there in a minute.

• 1:41:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:12Speaker 01

  He's walking around, I'm sitting there talking. I looked down at his shorts and he's wearing cutoffs, like, not straight, like, like they're man cutoffs.

• 1:41:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, old school.

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  When we cut the sleeves off our shirt, they're like, not quite.

• 1:41:25Cameron Hanes?

  Perfect.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  You know, and I go, I didn't realize Sitka made shorts. And he goes, well, they kinda do.

• 1:41:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  But they're kinda not what I like. So I just take Sitka pants and I just cut them off where I want.

• 1:41:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  Literally, the H and I C of Black Rifle is trolling around in Sitka pants, cutoff into shorts.

• 1:41:48Cameron Hanes?

  With scissors.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was dying.

• 1:41:51Cameron Hanes?

  No, he, he's, he's unique. I, I love, he's like, everybody's got their own personality, but

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:56Cameron Hanes?

  Some people just try to like, fit in or whatever. He's just like, no, this is who I am.

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:01Cameron Hanes?

  I just like, I just like Evan. Evan's just real.

• 1:42:03Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 1:42:04Cameron Hanes?

  You know?

• 1:42:04Speaker 01

  Super good dude.

• 1:42:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And he's been, Black Rifle, what a success story. I love it. Um, super pumped with our partnership. And yeah, it's gonna happen. It just hasn't happened yet.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:42:13Cameron Hanes?

  It's not one of those ones where I, I just take that approach with everything now. I mean, Hoy was supposed to, we have a new bow coming out, was supposed to be out. So, um, I did kinda get kinda pissy about that, I will say, but it's gonna happen here in the next week or two. So that's fun.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  Well, good.

• 1:42:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  Good, good. Um, where's the, uh, where's the prototype?

• 1:42:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:42:36Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:42:37Cameron Hanes?

  In the mail. Damn.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  Damn, I walked right into that.

• 1:42:41Cameron Hanes?

  I, I love Hoyt. It's a, but I just love the industry. I mean, so tell me, I'm as, as tied in as you are with all this. I want to hear, I love talking about, for me, I don't really give a, I'm where I'm at, whatever. People love me, hate me, doesn't matter. I want to see these young guys kicking ass. Who do you, who do you have here? You mentioned a couple, James, that Ty Jordan, I think, which I have seen his stuff. Anybody else kicking ass out there in the industry?

• 1:43:13Speaker 01

  Um, you know, as far as, you know, I guess it's just a matter, a unit of measure, like kicking ass in what way? Like when I look at things, I don't necessarily, you know, like for me, it's like I say to a lot of people, you and I don't count. Our opinions on a lot of things don't count because our perspectives aren't the people we're trying to reach.

• 1:43:34Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  Just not.

• 1:43:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  And so when I see some of these up and coming folks, you know, I don't necessarily immediately look like, how big animals have they killed?

• 1:43:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  And so like as far as someone that's, and this is going to seem weird, but like, he's not up and coming. He's a OG is Greg Glessinger. From Hunt Works.

• 1:43:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  He was one of the jury's heavy hitters forever, went out on his own. He's one of the most stable, he could do, he could like a 197 this year that had broke off a bunch of inches. Last year his target buck was like 240 and it died of EHD.

• 1:44:09Cameron Hanes?

  Oh my God.

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  Right. And so he's an absolute gangster, but he's just, the last several years, his stuff's been blowing up, doing it on his own.

• 1:44:18Cameron Hanes?

  Is he filming?

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 1:44:19Cameron Hanes?

  Like YouTube and all that?

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, his show's called, his show's called Hunt Works.

• 1:44:23Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  I like his stuff because he under, he came from, like you, he came from the, I don't want to say the previous generation, but he came from the generation where it was pre-social media.

• 1:44:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  He's now transitioning into the social media side. His content is solid, great, great animals and just a solid person. So when I look at people that are up and coming, I don't necessarily look at how old they are, how new they are. I look at momentum.

• 1:44:52Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha. Okay.

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  And so like right now, you know, and look, a certain company called all their people out and told them they're exiting hunting television, the television side.

• 1:45:03Cameron Hanes?

  Who did?

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  So anyway, the uh, so some of their heavy hitters have really started focusing on YouTube.

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  So Lee and Tiffany Lakoski's YouTube has really started.

• 1:45:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  Has.

• 1:45:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, they've put in some.

• 1:45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Connect those dots.

• 1:45:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:25Speaker 01

  Um, and rightfully so. I mean, hunting television had its heyday, but if you're reading the room.

• 1:45:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:32Speaker 01

  You're not going to continue to invest in a dying platform.

• 1:45:35Cameron Hanes?

  That's what we've had a hard time as an industry of switching gears.

• 1:45:41Speaker 01

  Fact.

• 1:45:41Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, ATA, it might be an example of that, but when you look at like this mark, the, the marketing, that's where I think archery and marketing suck because it was so easy. Just hunting in general, not just archery, so easy to just say, write a check to whatever TV show or outdoor channel, here's our marketing. Oh, Peterson's, Peterson's hunting. Yeah, we want a full page. This, that. Yeah. Peterson's bow hunting. Yeah, we want a full page. So here's our money. That's our marketing plan. That was it. That doesn't take any skill. You don't have to be good at marketing. You just wrote a check and made a commercial, same commercials that we've done forever.

• 1:46:22Cameron Hanes?

  Same print ad we've done forever, probably the same words almost, just a different bow. Maybe a different face, maybe not a different face, but it's like, can we get any better?

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  Bro, you just made, you just made me remember something. Oh my God. So, and it had, I didn't even remember this when you were talking about the magazine where you were like, cams on every page.

• 1:46:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:46Speaker 01

  I didn't even remember it then, but what you just said reminded me of something. So I don't watch a lot. Like I watch your content because it's not because I like you. I mean, that helps.

• 1:46:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  But dude, if your content was shitty.

• 1:46:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yes. It's like a car wreck.

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  You know for a fact.

• 1:47:01Cameron Hanes?

  You gotta look and see what happened.

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  You know for a fact, if you put out a shitty, a shitty piece of material and your phone dings and you're like, Greg Poole, you're like.

• 1:47:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Now that up.

• 1:47:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Damn it. He's going to tell me and I totally would.

• 1:47:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:13Speaker 01

  So I watch your stuff because I enjoy it.

• 1:47:16Cameron Hanes?

  Right. QC.

• 1:47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:19Speaker 01

  Right. So I'm watching Levi Morgan's show. Yeah. Cause I, I enjoy Levi's personality. Lovely guy. He's, he's got a good person, you know, he's not the same. He's not a Michael Waddell. He's not, you know. No, he's his own. He's not a Tom Miranda. So his personality, I enjoy his personality. And so I was watching his show and this is something.

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  Right to the point you just said. Okay. What is archery and hunting doing? Yeah. And no one's really thought about it. So I watch his show. Levi, Levi, Levi, Levi. It's his show. Perfect. Yeah. Goes to commercial. First product. Commercial. Levi, Levi, Levi, Levi. Yeah. Second commercial. Levi, Levi, Levi, Levi. Different product. Yeah. Every commercial was Levi. Right. This is just standard. Yeah. I was hanging out with Levi when he would have to make all these commercials for people. Yeah. And it hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm sitting there on the couch and I'm like. Wait a second.

• 1:48:27Speaker 01

  So I text Levi. I said, hey, and he confirmed. He's like, that's what they want. Yeah. So it's not, it's not like he's doing it on purpose, but. Right. I brought up to him, I said, okay, well. How would it work if you were watching Friends? And Matt LeBlanc. Yeah. Was in every commercial in between breaks on Friends. Yeah. I go. Him being in every single commercial. Because of the amount of content now. I don't think it really applies back in the day with a magazine, because that was all there was. Yeah. I'm like, but it, it minimizes his on-screen effect. Yeah. On the television show.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  When he's in every goddamn commercial. Yeah, there's character burnout. Correct. Yeah. That's why Real, Ford, Tide, Viagra, whatever you want to pick. That's why when they air their commercials, they make a commercial with actors. Yeah. And. That's what television shows air. Yeah. And I, and Levi was like. God damn.

• 1:49:36Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  Totally right. But that's just what these folks have been trained and conditioned to do.

• 1:49:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's easy.

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:49:43Cameron Hanes?

  It's easy. You don't have to be that creative, which when I think about, and maybe I'm just beating a dead horse, but could I, could I see a commercial where somebody's up like all their form and falling down and still shoot an accurate arrow? To me, that'd be like, that seems like a good bow.

• 1:50:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:50:04Cameron Hanes?

  But I don't know, I don't really know what I want because I've also bitched that, hey, why am I not on the cover of this catalog?

• 1:50:11Speaker 01

  Right. Well, you, you, you are at the level where that's a valid question. For me, I watch these commercials where they film from behind someone and he shoots and his arrow.

• 1:50:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, fishtails.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  And I'm over there like, oh, yeah. Holy Jesus.

• 1:50:28Cameron Hanes?

  Well.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  Did, did nobody, and I'm that guy. I, every one of my friends that are in the industry, if their company puts out something and there's something wrong with it.

• 1:50:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  I'm the guy that's like, screenshot, hey, bro, what the F? But for me, if you're advertising to archers and you're over the shoulder and someone's shooting a commercial.

• 1:50:52Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  A commercial.

• 1:50:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:54Speaker 01

  It's not an animal. You can redo it.

• 1:50:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:57Speaker 01

  And your arrow flight is just the worst thing in the world.

• 1:51:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:51:02Cameron Hanes?

  You don't get it.

• 1:51:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:03Cameron Hanes?

  Well, that used to be where, you know, Outdoor Channel would try to put up an ad for a bow hunt, something bow hunting. This, you know, like the anchor, the string's back here.

• 1:51:13Speaker 01

  Peeps down here.

• 1:51:13Cameron Hanes?

  Or, or even like, I always bring this up, Randy White was in an Under Armour ad, you know, at the first shot show that I went to, or one of the first I went to, but the first I ever saw Under Armour there. And he's up there with a bow and has no rest on it. So, you know, he's got the arrow, he's got this finger here. There's no rest on the bow. It's because they just bought the bow. So you always get these like, there is no. And then I could, I could bitch because I have bitch, but like this picture of me at the, at the bow rack. I'm not a full draw. It's like, I'm not quite all the way anchored. That's the picture on the wall. So it's like, why, why is a picture of me not an anchor?

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:56Cameron Hanes?

  20 feet tall and whatever, 40 feet long, but sometimes shit flips or slips through the cracks. But when is a commercial like that or something, come on, we, we should get better.

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  Well, and that's the, and that was why I asked Levi, because I trust his opinion and he's been doing this and he's at a, at a very high level. And it's not his decision.

• 1:52:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  The companies don't have the creativity to create their commercials and give it to Levi to air.

• 1:52:25Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:25Speaker 01

  Instead they put the burden on him.

• 1:52:27Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  To make a commercial.

• 1:52:29Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:52:29Speaker 01

  And Levi's like, I'm an archer in a hundred, bro.

• 1:52:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  Like, okay. But.

• 1:52:36Cameron Hanes?

  It's just gonna be me shooting a bow.

• 1:52:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, doing or me using your climbing thing or me using your ground line or whatever, whatever. So, you know, it's not a diss on Levi whatsoever. He's one of the best out there. I love the guy. But it was just an example of Levi is having to manifest what the industry makes him do.

• 1:52:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  And to answer your question, why can't the industry do better?

• 1:53:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  Well, there's a couple of answers to that if you want them.

• 1:53:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, let's hear it.

• 1:53:07Speaker 01

  Number one is generally speaking, a lot of the people in these marketing departments either got there because they knocked up the owner's daughter.

• 1:53:14Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  I won't say that one.

• 1:53:19Speaker 01

  The inverse.

• 1:53:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:22Cameron Hanes?

  Knock up their son?

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. They've been there long enough.

• 1:53:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:26Speaker 01

  To where if I'm the owner and it's, you know, someone leaves and I'm like.

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  You've been here a long time.

• 1:53:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  You're now the marketing.

• 1:53:35Cameron Hanes?

  You're in charge of marketing.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  And you're like, what? I'm a machinist. What do you mean I'm a marketing guy now? I'm not a marketing guy. What are you talking about?

• 1:53:41Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  Or they put a sales guy in charge of marketing.

• 1:53:44Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Or a marketing guy in charge of sales. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Or the dreaded three letters of death, not ICE, a private equity firm.

• 1:53:56Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, God.

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:57Cameron Hanes?

  You can everything up.

• 1:53:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, a private equity firm buys it and then they fire anybody that knows anything about anything.

• 1:54:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:05Speaker 01

  Appropriate. And they put someone in charge of everything that knows nothing.

• 1:54:09Cameron Hanes?

  But they know how to count beans.

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  Bean counters. Exactly right.

• 1:54:12Cameron Hanes?

  They know money.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 1:54:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:14Speaker 01

  Well, they know how to lose money.

• 1:54:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:17Speaker 01

  And they know how to destroy brands.

• 1:54:18Cameron Hanes?

  They know how to up product.

• 1:54:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:20Cameron Hanes?

  And make cheaper shit so they can make more margin, but that's about it.

• 1:54:23Speaker 01

  Bingo.

• 1:54:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  And so when we ask the question of why the industry is still where it is.

• 1:54:30Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:54:30Speaker 01

  And, and I say this all the time and sometimes people get offended, but I've said it enough times. I'll say it, I don't give a shit. The biggest problem in archery is archers.

• 1:54:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. How so?

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  Cause we hold ourselves back.

• 1:54:44Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  Like the rats in the.

• 1:54:46Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, just shitting on each other all the time?

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  It's like if, if one mouse starts to climb out of the bucket, the other ones pull it down.

• 1:54:53Cameron Hanes?

  That's your crab in the bucket.

• 1:54:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:54:54Cameron Hanes?

  Scenario.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  You know, on, on the target archery side. For years and years and years, like, I'm sorry. If Cam Haynes or Greg Poole are in Vegas and we shoot our final arrow to win. And we just won a hundred and $25,000 for shooting our bow for a weekend. I'm losing my shit.

• 1:55:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:18Speaker 01

  I'm Ricky Bobby in my underwear, running around from the invisible flames.

• 1:55:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  Ain't nobody stopping me, bro. But literally archers get offended if an archer screams and yells and they're like, oh, that's not professional.

• 1:55:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 1:55:32Speaker 01

  Not, not professional. What? Have you seen Tiger Woods when he makes a bad shot?

• 1:55:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  What a, every other sport.

• 1:55:39Cameron Hanes?

  It's called passion, baby.

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:55:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, let's see it.

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  But on the target side, we have prevented that. Because archers are like, oh, that's not, that's not professional. Well, yeah, neither's archery, motherfucker. What are we talking about? It's still a hobby.

• 1:55:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:54Speaker 01

  And so on the hunting side, you know as well as, and it's, it's a personality thing. Like if you go kill another one of these toads and you're not going to act out of character, you're going to act like Cam Haynes acts. Michael Waddell, he's going to be out there karate chopping the air and doing the Kung Fu Panda.

• 1:56:15Cameron Hanes?

  Smoke that Joker.

• 1:56:16Speaker 01

  Woo! And that's his personality.

• 1:56:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's real.

• 1:56:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. And some people get irritated with that, too.

• 1:56:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  You know, it's like when someone kills a 16 foot alligator or a giant, whatever, and they, I'm not talking about dry humping a corpse, people. But like when they lay down next to it to show how big they each are.

• 1:56:36Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:37Speaker 01

  What's wrong with that?

• 1:56:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, there's nothing wrong with that.

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  Now, people do some stupid shit. I'm not, I'm not making excuses for people that do dumb shit. But laying down next to an animal to show how big it is?

• 1:56:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:49Speaker 01

  There's nothing wrong with that.

• 1:56:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I, I think like on that, on that note, what, and I'm not the police, the internet police, so whatever, but you are wearing a beast broadhead thing. So I will talk about Josh Bomar, but I think he does an awesome job on telling stories. I wish he wouldn't do the shock value shit because I think it hurts some of the other stuff. I think, you know, the headshot on the baboon or whatever the, it was a chest.

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  Chest, yeah. At 90.

• 1:57:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's just like, I get it. I've had shit that would be fun to show just to get reactions.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:29Cameron Hanes?

  But it's not good for us.

• 1:57:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, and I mean, look, the, the most recent one was Sarah shot the deer from behind.

• 1:57:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Uh, it worked. It, it wasn't a Texas heart shot. It didn't go in.

• 1:57:45Cameron Hanes?

  It seemed like, I, hey, I'm a fan of everybody. It seemed like a shitty shot. Trying to spin it to, to make it sound good.

• 1:57:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:56Cameron Hanes?

  Was that what it was?

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  I don't know if it was a shitty shot or not. Um, she is a good shot. I will give her credit. She is a very, very good archer.

• 1:58:03Cameron Hanes?

  I've made shitty shots. I'm not saying, I'm not saying she's not a great shot. I say she can be a great shot. You can still have a up shot.

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:10Cameron Hanes?

  And still be a good shooter.

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:58:11Cameron Hanes?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  We've all done it.

• 1:58:13Cameron Hanes?

  It seemed to me like that's not exactly where she wanted the thing to hit. So I wouldn't pretend like it was, but I would say, but look what the broadhead did.

• 1:58:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:58:22Cameron Hanes?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  That was the intent. I don't know if it necessarily came across that way.

• 1:58:26Cameron Hanes?

  I can't even really, I don't, I didn't watch it really. I think I saw the little clip, but I don't, I don't know what the story was. What was the story?

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  Well, it was a deer that they were, that she had been chasing.

• 1:58:35Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah, I knew that.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  And it was, and it didn't present, you know, so she was at full draw and it was good time going by and it was either shit or get off the pot.

• 1:58:45Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 1:58:46Speaker 01

  And so, and look, a Tex, I've never, I've never executed a Texas heart shot.

• 1:58:52Cameron Hanes?

  Me neither.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  The, for those of you that don't know what that is, it's up the poop shoot.

• 1:58:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's basically a, a hole through the pelvis, maybe about, maybe about like this.

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:59:04Cameron Hanes?

  And it's a lot, not much room for error. Cause you, you think lungs are about like this. So now we're like doing this. And the problem is if you don't get it up there, you could catch a femoral, which maybe she did. I can't, I don't, I, like I said, I don't know what the story was with it, but not a lot of room for error on that one.

• 1:59:24Speaker 01

  Right. And so for her, what happened was is it hit a little bit low right of that.

• 1:59:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  Didn't hit any bones or femorals. It went through everything and went straight through the heart and lodged in the front shoulder. So it, and the Texas heart shot, for anyone that's, it is lethal as lethal can be.

• 1:59:40Cameron Hanes?

  But that wasn't a Texas, that was like off on the side.

• 1:59:42Speaker 01

  No, it was from, it was, it was a heart. Yeah.

• 1:59:45Cameron Hanes?

  But it wasn't through the pelvis.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  No, it went in between them. It went through the right rear ham.

• 1:59:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:50Speaker 01

  Through everything, through the heart into the left front shoulder.

• 1:59:53Cameron Hanes?

  But like right rear ham and rib cage, like here, like?

• 1:59:57Speaker 01

  No, no, no. Like, oh, this far low right of the butthole.

• 2:00:02Cameron Hanes?

  Well, that's not Texas heart shot then.

• 2:00:03Speaker 01

  No, and I don't, and I haven't talked with her about it.

• 2:00:05Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:00:06Speaker 01

  So, but that's just my thing is it seemed like the Texas heart shot was the goal. And it was a little bit low right. It didn't hit the leg bone. It went through the right ham and up through everything lodged in the front shoulder.

• 2:00:19Cameron Hanes?

  Dead as shit.

• 2:00:20Speaker 01

  Absolutely lethal.

• 2:00:21Cameron Hanes?

  Dead as shit, yeah.

• 2:00:22Speaker 01

  Died in forty yards.

• 2:00:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:24Speaker 01

  What you're talking about is optics.

• 2:00:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that, I, I mean, I don't think showing that shots, that's bow hunting.

• 2:00:30Speaker 01

  It is bow hunting.

• 2:00:31Cameron Hanes?

  That's bow, I'm not, I'm not criticizing that because if I up and come out of my anchor on the shot, that's where my arrow goes too.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:00:39Cameron Hanes?

  So I know, I'm not, hey, I'm not perfect.

• 2:00:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:00:43Cameron Hanes?

  Um, so I'm not criticizing bow hunting.

• 2:00:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:00:46Cameron Hanes?

  That shit happens.

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:00:47Cameron Hanes?

  She got the buck is great or whatever. I just didn't know if the, if it was sold as like a Texas heart shot.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:00:53Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:00:54Speaker 01

  No, that's just my impression of it.

• 2:00:55Cameron Hanes?

  Gotcha.

• 2:00:56Speaker 01

  Based on the angle, like the hardest one I've ever angled was an uphill mule deer that was not quite walking away from me totally. And it went, just missed the left ham.

• 2:01:06Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01:06Speaker 01

  Up through everything and then came out the right shoulder.

• 2:01:09Cameron Hanes?

  That'll work.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  That'll work.

• 2:01:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:12Speaker 01

  Would I have tried a Texas heart shot on that deer if it was appropriate? Probably.

• 2:01:16Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01:17Speaker 01

  But, um, so to your point, you know, I think the thing that Josh has both for him against him is one, they're both really good shots.

• 2:01:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:27Speaker 01

  Uh, number two is at, at, at his, at this stage of his life and this stage of his hunting career, they don't accept any sponsorships.

• 2:01:36Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  And go fuck yourself.

• 2:01:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:41Speaker 01

  Like, you know, he's not going to post something that is that, you know, but the, the, the rear end shot like that, a lot of people didn't like it. A lot of people did.

• 2:01:50Cameron Hanes?

  I don't.

• 2:01:51Speaker 01

  And so he's at, he's at a stage, they are, they are at a stage now where it's like, hey, man, this is the, this is the realism of it. He caught a lot of heat for the, um, you know, for the po, for the, uh, the potential poachers on his fence line.

• 2:02:06Cameron Hanes?

  Oh.

• 2:02:06Speaker 01

  Like.

• 2:02:07Cameron Hanes?

  I never see that.

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  People, he just, you know, it was rifle season and he's driving his property saying, I think someone poached a deer on my fence line.

• 2:02:15Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:02:15Speaker 01

  And I'm like. What the is wrong with that?

• 2:02:18Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:02:19Speaker 01

  Like, so I think that that there's that there's a bunch of, you know, some of it rightfully so, some of it not, and eventually it'll go away.

• 2:02:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  But, you know, look, I've hunted with Josh.

• 2:02:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:30Speaker 01

  And I can tell you, I've not ever seen the dude do anything that was even close to, like, he crosses his i's and dots his t's, but he's also a meathead like the rest of us.

• 2:02:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah, no, definitely.

• 2:02:43Speaker 01

  Nobody's perfect.

• 2:02:44Cameron Hanes?

  No, no, no, I, and I mean, I know what you're saying, like, he's at a point where it doesn't matter what the public thinks, right? He's, they got money, they got whatever. I just like, for, for what's in hunting's best interest.

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:02:58Cameron Hanes?

  Because social media gets everywhere. It's not like it's just hunters watching an outdoor channel. That shit goes everywhere. So all I'm saying is like, I wish he would think more about how this is perceived, not by people, and he can say, no, off, I don't care what you think, but there's people who are going to judge hunting and who potentially could vote for or against hunting. And some people, it doesn't matter what you do, they're going to vote against hunting. But I don't want to put material out there that's going to help them.

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  You're talking about the eighty, ten, ten.

• 2:03:28Cameron Hanes?

  What's that?

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  So, ten percent of Americans are like us.

• 2:03:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  Hardcore hunting.

• 2:03:33Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:03:34Speaker 01

  Ten percent of Americans are hardcore anti-hunting, and eighty percent don't give a shit either way.

• 2:03:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  Until they're presented with someone that, something that makes them care one way or another.

• 2:03:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:48Speaker 01

  And so Wayne is probably one of the best guys. You, by the way, thank you for your conservation efforts.

• 2:03:56Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:03:57Speaker 01

  You have, well, it's not a of course thing. You put.

• 2:04:01Cameron Hanes?

  This is what I love.

• 2:04:02Speaker 01

  You use your platform, you use everything you've built for, and I know what it does to your algorithm, when you, when you.

• 2:04:09Cameron Hanes?

  Politics everything out.

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  Thank you. Trust me, I'm on my third Instagram account since two thousand twenty-one. But anyway, sometime in January, but whatever.

• 2:04:21Cameron Hanes?

  Around the sixth.

• 2:04:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, around there, between the fifth and the seventh.

• 2:04:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:27Speaker 01

  So, but I thank you for that because people don't understand that it does cost you numbers to share some of the stuff you do.

• 2:04:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  But that you and I, we don't make the decisions.

• 2:04:39Cameron Hanes?

  Right, no.

• 2:04:40Speaker 01

  Luckily, the 10% don't make all the decisions.

• 2:04:44Cameron Hanes?

  No, it's that 80.

• 2:04:45Speaker 01

  It's the 80%.

• 2:04:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  And if you can get them to either do one of two things, not care and shut up.

• 2:04:52Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:04:53Speaker 01

  Or just ignore it all, then it's a fair fight.

• 2:04:57Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:57Speaker 01

  But what PETA does, and to your point.

• 2:05:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:00Speaker 01

  The optics of what's presented.

• 2:05:02Cameron Hanes?

  You make people make a decision on it.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  Correct. Like when, when we see neighborhoods and you see a doe eating flowers with a crossbow bolt through her face.

• 2:05:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, you, people are, you made somebody make a decision on hunting.

• 2:05:13Speaker 01

  Guess what that 80% did?

• 2:05:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:15Speaker 01

  No like.

• 2:05:16Cameron Hanes?

  Anti hunting.

• 2:05:17Speaker 01

  Dislike.

• 2:05:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, for sure. And I, I just think like, and it goes back, you know, the whole spearing the bear thing, you know, it did give them a huge bump in, in, um, uh, just awareness and exposure. It was everywhere, CNN. So I get it. It's like, if, if that's, if that's a metric you are after, views, that's how you do it.

• 2:05:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:05:42Cameron Hanes?

  For hunting, I just, I think we should look with different optics, especially big names like him. Like I said, I have stuff, so I have stuff that I chose not to because I thought it would hurt hunting.

• 2:05:55Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:05:56Cameron Hanes?

  That's it. That's all I'm saying.

• 2:05:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:57Cameron Hanes?

  I'm not, I, he's a great shot, great hunter, spent time with him, like, liked the big personality, love it all, love it all. Just that's, if I had a criticism and we are talking industry, we are talking marketing, we are talking influence, that one, I'm not crazy about. That's it.

• 2:06:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, look, everybody is entitled to that opinion and it's, it's, I'm not going to say it's valid or invalid because I don't say that about people's opinions. Now, if someone states something of fact, I can have an argument for that.

• 2:06:29Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:06:30Speaker 01

  And I mean, look.

• 2:06:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Cause I'm not saying, oh, he's killing hunting.

• 2:06:34Speaker 01

  Right, no.

• 2:06:35Cameron Hanes?

  If I said that, then you'd say like, nah, I don't think so, but I'm not saying that.

• 2:06:39Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:06:39Cameron Hanes?

  I'm just saying it, it influences people.

• 2:06:42Speaker 01

  It does.

• 2:06:42Cameron Hanes?

  One way or another.

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  It does. Well, and especially when you have a platform that big and his YouTube is, their, their YouTube is huge.

• 2:06:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Um, and so, no, I totally get what you're saying and from the optics side. You know, I think that that there's a balance there like number one, if you're using the Jimmy big time as an example, we know that satire.

• 2:07:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  A lot of people didn't.

• 2:07:07Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:07:07Speaker 01

  So they're literally thinking that they're that bit bad a shot when they shoot 20 feet over an animal and you're like, they missed by 20 feet. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:07:17Cameron Hanes?

  That was unethical.

• 2:07:18Speaker 01

  That that was on purpose.

• 2:07:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:20Speaker 01

  So they didn't even want to come close to.

• 2:07:22Cameron Hanes?

  They weren't in on the joke.

• 2:07:23Speaker 01

  Right. And so there is that side of it from the content side. The other side of it is you're you're not wrong in the, how do you balance the presentation for content versus the optics?

• 2:07:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:37Speaker 01

  For the 80 10 10 factor.

• 2:07:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:41Speaker 01

  And now, yes, I I do work for Josh. I do work for Beast. How do you balance that side with owning a business? Well, it's Josh's business to run and right now, we can't make Beast broadheads fast enough.

• 2:07:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:57Speaker 01

  Like, we were so far behind this year. It was, we took it in the face.

• 2:08:03Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:08:03Speaker 01

  We took it in the ass worse than that deer did. How about that?

• 2:08:06Cameron Hanes?

  Like, and it was.

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  That hurts. Yeah, it it it and it was on us. We just didn't foresee like the hundred grain titanium was, bro, like, we had a meeting and we were like, yeah, 10,000 packs, not broadheads, 10,000 packs should get us through this first little, yeah, that shit sold in four weeks.

• 2:08:28Cameron Hanes?

  Whoa.

• 2:08:28Speaker 01

  Like, literally two weeks in, I'm sending an email, we're and David Hauser's reordering because the springs come from the UK and the blades come from Germany and the same factory that makes Victory's components makes our feral and the, you know, so we got shit coming in from the best suppliers all over the world to Utah, where it's assembled and tested.

• 2:08:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  We couldn't keep up. And so.

• 2:08:53Cameron Hanes?

  That's, I mean, as far as business, they kick ass.

• 2:08:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:57Cameron Hanes?

  You cannot criticize what the Bomars have done business wise. It's like, nothing, I mean, I. Just praise there.

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, 100%.

• 2:09:06Cameron Hanes?

  Dialed in on business. It's like, so I have, I love it. And all I've heard about beast broadheads has been positive. People are fired up. So that vision has came to fruition and is kicking ass. Love it. I love it. I love success stories like that. So this isn't like a personal thing.

• 2:09:25Speaker 01

  Oh, no, not at all.

• 2:09:26Cameron Hanes?

  Just, just being objective as hell.

• 2:09:28Speaker 01

  Well, and we're, we're having the kind of conversation where stuff like that is relevant. And so it's absolutely okay to talk about anybody that doesn't think the conversation right now is something you can't talk about, you're not right. This is, this is the kind of conversation we need to have more. I don't even see Josh hide from this kind of conversation either. And so he's not going to give a shit that, that I have it either.

• 2:09:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:51Speaker 01

  And so, you know, from, from that side, and at this, especially at this point, whether Josh does or doesn't do that kind of stuff, folks are still gonna hold things against him.

• 2:10:06Cameron Hanes?

  So, oh, yeah, no, I understand that, too.

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:09Cameron Hanes?

  And I thought you were gonna say, I thought you were gonna go the other way, like, he's gonna be just as popular. And I was gonna say, right, so he doesn't need to put that out. But it's, he is gonna get criticized either way. So maybe he should just put out whatever he wants.

• 2:10:22Speaker 01

  Well, and I think that's kind of his mentality at this point. I mean, I get, because of my involvement, not just with the company, but with the, I get calls from, I get calls from the industry people. I get calls from the dealers. I get calls from lots of consumers. And some of them are like, what the is he thinking? And then I have a conversation and they're like, oh, well, yeah, okay, that makes some sense. It doesn't always make sense.

• 2:10:49Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:10:50Speaker 01

  But understanding the, you know, and I don't agree that any publicity is good publicity.

• 2:10:56Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:10:57Speaker 01

  I don't necessarily agree with that.

• 2:10:58Cameron Hanes?

  No, I don't either.

• 2:10:59Speaker 01

  And I mean, it, it may prove out in content numbers and shit. But I don't necessarily agree with it.

• 2:11:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:07Speaker 01

  Um, I believe, and the reason I don't believe it is, is this, you know, like doing Bojunkie Media and stuff. I was reporting on archery events and professional archers. If you think professional archers just aren't human beings and they don't have the same happening that pro basketball players and baseball players and hockey players do, you're out of your mind. They do all the same stuff.

• 2:11:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:34Speaker 01

  The problem is, in our sport and our industry, we just can't sustain that kind of hit.

• 2:11:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's, it's, hunting is, so here's the difference. Hunting is, it's about honor and respect.

• 2:11:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:11:51Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, to be a, we all want to be honorable hunters. We want to respect the land and the animals. You want to come up, we're, we're supposed to be, set the example. We're supposed to be leaders in our community. So when you talk about honor and respect, then your behavior, if it doesn't reflect that.

• 2:12:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:12:06Cameron Hanes?

  Then it's like, wait a second. This is flies in the face of what hunting is, right? So then hunters push back.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:12:13Cameron Hanes?

  So that's why we're sort of like, it's, it's, I don't know if it's our fault or if it's a fault of the tradition or just, it's just, um, part of the expectation of being a hunter is we have to carry ourselves differently. We can't be, you know, you talk about the NBA or the, like, we have the, we're humans. People have affairs. People get DUIs. People have all the shit that you see with the stars. Yeah. But it's like hunting is judged differently because of that honor and respect part.

• 2:12:45Speaker 01

  The 80 10 10.

• 2:12:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't watch baseball. So if I hear about, no, I'm not, he's, he's a Christian now and he's been forgiven and all that. So I'm not going to use him as an example, but if, if, if I hear a baseball player got busted for cocaine or got busted for a DUI or whatever, whatever, I'm like. Okay. Yeah. I don't go baseball. Right. But in. Hunting. In hunting. Yeah. If a hunter does something that the 80%, well, the 80 and the 10, that the 10 use to get the 80 fired up. That does affect us. Yeah. And so from an optic side, I totally understand what you're saying and, and you're not wrong.

• 2:13:28Speaker 01

  I guess the question then becomes to, to what end? And how much, you know, it's like, how many times do you have to do something? How, how many times do you have to repeat something to break a bad habit? Yeah. Uh, yeah, I don't know. So how many good things does someone have to do? Right. To make up for a, I don't even necessarily know if bad thing is the right word, but. No, it could just be, it can be spun negatively. Correct. Yeah. And the question, and the answer is, there isn't enough. No. Because a guy like yourself, who I've known forever, not to fluff your chub here, but you've never got caught the neighbor's cat. Yeah.

• 2:14:09Speaker 01

  That wasn't, not that you've not gotten caught, you just don't the neighbor's cat. That, that didn't come off right, but you get my point. They've never caught me. Yeah, exactly. And so, right. But you've never had any of those. All of your good faith, all of your good works, you are acutely aware. Yeah. If you stepped on your, you step on your dick one time. Yeah. It's over. None of that shit matters. No, I know. Yeah. Life's not fair. No. And so that's the, that's the reality of it. Yeah. And so you're aware of it. Like when I talked to Jim Shockey years and years ago, I said, Jim, how do you, how do you not like going to hunt in Kerplakistan? And all these places?

• 2:14:52Speaker 01

  How do you do it right? Legally? Yeah. And he's like, oh, I have a whole group of people that literally research everything.

• 2:15:04Speaker 01

  Well, when you go places, you are acutely aware of what is what?

• 2:15:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:11Speaker 01

  And why and how, because you understand all of your good works if you

• 2:15:17Cameron Hanes?

  One

• 2:15:18Speaker 01

  up. And it depends on the severity, but

• 2:15:20Cameron Hanes?

  Not, not for some people.

• 2:15:22Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:15:23Cameron Hanes?

  So I've been, I remember I was in a, uh, years ago in Colorado and Colorado, you have to have your hunter safety card on you. It can't be a screenshot. It can't be a whatever. And I switched packs. I got a new, I don't know if, I think it was before Kafaru even, but so anyway, this is probably

• 2:15:44Cameron Hanes?

  maybe 15 years ago. I didn't have it with me. I could have got a ticket. If I would have got a ticket for forgetting your hunt, even though I had a picture of it, I had called my wife. She had it right there. The game order was there, whatever. It's like, if I would have got, I didn't get a ticket because he knew that, okay, this is, okay, this is just

• 2:16:05Speaker 01

  Common sense.

• 2:16:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's just common sense, but that would have put into question all this.

• 2:16:11Speaker 01

  All of it.

• 2:16:11Cameron Hanes?

  Is that fair? No, that's just the way it goes.

• 2:16:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:16:15Cameron Hanes?

  That's the way it goes.

• 2:16:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:16:17Cameron Hanes?

  I can't, I, does mean no good to complain about it because I know the rules to the game.

• 2:16:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:16:23Cameron Hanes?

  The rules to the game are you can't up. And if you do, it's over, basically.

• 2:16:28Speaker 01

  But for that's, I mean, folks are going to say that's an exaggeration, but it's not.

• 2:16:32Cameron Hanes?

  Not in hunt, not in hunting.

• 2:16:34Speaker 01

  Like it's not over for the guy that works at the mill. Who goes and accidentally goes outside of his unit. Accidentally up in the middle of nowhere, where his Onyx wasn't working and he accidentally crosses over somewhere he shouldn't have and kills an animal.

• 2:16:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:50Speaker 01

  Technically illegally, not even on purpose.

• 2:16:52Cameron Hanes?

  Now he's still back at work. It's like, nobody gives a

• 2:16:54Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:16:55Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:55Speaker 01

  Like, oh, you don't get

• 2:16:58Speaker 01

  and now I don't ever put anybody on blast, but here's the thing that I tell people in that regard, like when they mother somebody that made a mistake, whether they even met you or not.

• 2:17:10Speaker 01

  Is I'll say, what equipment do you shoot?

• 2:17:15Speaker 01

  Do you know every executive at that company? Do you know the history of every executive at that company?

• 2:17:23Speaker 01

  You're you're digging on this person because they stepped on their dick.

• 2:17:29Speaker 01

  But you realize the equipment you're holding? Do you do you know any of those people?

• 2:17:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:33Speaker 01

  I do. And they'll be like, what don't I know?

• 2:17:39Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:17:39Speaker 01

  Well, I ain't telling you shit.

• 2:17:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:42Speaker 01

  Because some of it is intentional and some of those people are douchebags.

• 2:17:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:46Speaker 01

  Some of those people forgot their goddamn.

• 2:17:50Cameron Hanes?

  Hunter's safety card.

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  Hunter's safety card.

• 2:17:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:52Speaker 01

  And you want to turn them into a freaking.

• 2:17:56Cameron Hanes?

  Murderer.

• 2:17:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, because of that.

• 2:17:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's a we we love to we love, as I said, we love to eat our own for sure.

• 2:18:03Speaker 01

  Oh, dude.

• 2:18:03Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, there is no, there's no nuance. That's a problem. It's like we, come on. Who hasn't up, right? And like, even just like, even in that example, that was just an honest mistake. Some people have intentionally up and still it doesn't deserve that they get every their whole life ruined.

• 2:18:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:18:22Cameron Hanes?

  You know, or some people get a DUI and it's just like, I can't judge them. I've driven after drinking. I've been a up myself. So I, when I think about myself, I'm like, I need to offer some grace to to some of these people. I'm not, and I'm not, I'm outside of hunting now. I'm just like, in general, as a human, just like, can we offer grace ever? Is that okay?

• 2:18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%. Well, and I mean, and that's, but that's part of this internet, social media collective.

• 2:18:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:53Speaker 01

  Is nowadays, everybody's the judge, jury and executioner. And the court of public opinion is the final ruling. Because if you make a mistake or someone else makes a mistake and the headline reads, Cam Haynes gets gets caught the neighbor's cat.

• 2:19:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:12Cameron Hanes?

  That's gonna sell papers or get clicks.

• 2:19:14Speaker 01

  Some, someone reads it.

• 2:19:15Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:16Speaker 01

  Someone clicks on it, likes it, shares it.

• 2:19:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:18Speaker 01

  And they never check back.

• 2:19:20Cameron Hanes?

  No, it never, oh, that was BS?

• 2:19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, hundred percent.

• 2:19:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, whatever.

• 2:19:25Speaker 01

  What do you mean Cam wasn't even in the country when that happened?

• 2:19:28Cameron Hanes?

  Whatever.

• 2:19:29Speaker 01

  That they never know.

• 2:19:30Cameron Hanes?

  No, it's been shared seven thousand times.

• 2:19:32Speaker 01

  Bingo. And so now people believe a headline.

• 2:19:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:36Speaker 01

  Before it's even.

• 2:19:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:38Speaker 01

  Proven and our media, not, we can, CNN is a whole nother matter, but our hunting media with our hunting pages and all that. They don't care either.

• 2:19:47Cameron Hanes?

  No, no, they want clicks just like anybody.

• 2:19:50Speaker 01

  Exactly. Cause clicks pay the bills.

• 2:19:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:52Speaker 01

  Clicks for the chicks. And so, you know, that's just part and partial of it. So when I see and hear a lot of these things, and I hear a lot of things.

• 2:20:05Speaker 01

  Like, well, what's the rest of the story?

• 2:20:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:07Speaker 01

  Like, you know, what's the rest of the story?

• 2:20:09Cameron Hanes?

  I'm not big on piling on fellow hunter. I mean, I'm just like, I just, I just, I don't go to other pages and make shitty comments. I don't.

• 2:20:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:20:20Cameron Hanes?

  Whatever. We got enough, we got enough shit to deal with.

• 2:20:22Speaker 01

  Right. Well, wasn't it Joe that said that you're never going to find someone hating on you that's doing better than you?

• 2:20:29Cameron Hanes?

  Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think that's, that's been proven plenty of times.

• 2:20:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, that's, that's exactly what it is. Also, let's, you know, let's look at it this way. There are, there have been some massive mistakes that have led to incredible redemption stories.

• 2:20:42Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:20:43Speaker 01

  Chris Brackett.

• 2:20:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:20:45Speaker 01

  I like Chris. Chris is a good, Chris is a good dude. And yes, he absolutely stepped on his dick. No question.

• 2:20:52Cameron Hanes?

  He's talked a lot of shit about me, so.

• 2:20:54Speaker 01

  Has he?

• 2:20:54Cameron Hanes?

  But.

• 2:20:55Speaker 01

  Oh, I haven't ever heard him say anything bad about you, not to me, and I talk to him often, but.

• 2:21:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, probably not recently, but he did, he did, what I, I liked Aerofiction. I thought it was, he was a rock star.

• 2:21:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:21:10Cameron Hanes?

  So yeah, I was, and we, he won the Golden Moose for, I don't even know what I was there, but I thought it was awesome. I thought it was awesome. And I don't even know what the happened now. What, oh, he shot a couple, he shot that one buck.

• 2:21:22Speaker 01

  Shot a couple deer, he shouldn't have.

• 2:21:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's what, that's what it was. But if, if he'd paid his dues.

• 2:21:29Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:21:29Cameron Hanes?

  And he's back, awesome.

• 2:21:31Speaker 01

  Dude, and he's literally full mea culpa. He's like, well, and this is a thing that people don't understand. You will. I watched as Chris Brackett was on the 50 foot banners at shot show.

• 2:21:43Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:44Speaker 01

  And Chris Brackett was everywhere with his chops.

• 2:21:46Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:21:47Speaker 01

  And he didn't have a mentor or a manager or someone to be like.

• 2:21:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:51Speaker 01

  Slow the down.

• 2:21:53Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:21:53Speaker 01

  You know, he was that bull elephant in Musk that didn't have a bigger bull elephant to tell him to calm down.

• 2:21:59Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:22:00Speaker 01

  And the industry just kept telling him more, more.

• 2:22:03Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:22:03Speaker 01

  More.

• 2:22:04Cameron Hanes?

  Feed the machine.

• 2:22:04Speaker 01

  Harder, harder.

• 2:22:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:06Speaker 01

  More wild, more wild. And he did it.

• 2:22:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:10Speaker 01

  And then he.

• 2:22:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:12Speaker 01

  And once that happened, of course, the industry just cuts him loose, but he's turned his life around and gave his life over. Life over to Jesus Christ. He is fully paid for his, for his misdeeds.

• 2:22:23Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:22:23Speaker 01

  And he's a hundred percent open and honest about it.

• 2:22:25Cameron Hanes?

  That's good. I like to hear that.

• 2:22:27Speaker 01

  Oh dude, and now he's literally like, you know, he's got his podcast and he's doing his whitetail equity thing and.

• 2:22:34Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:22:34Speaker 01

  He is rebuilding. I don't think he's gonna do a TV show again, of course, but. He's now gonna start using some of that old arrow affliction stuff and so he's built himself back into the mix a little bit.

• 2:22:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:47Speaker 01

  On the digital side.

• 2:22:47Cameron Hanes?

  I like comeback stories. Everybody does.

• 2:22:49Speaker 01

  Jelly roll.

• 2:22:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yes. Awesome. Yeah. I love it. That's what I say. Can we offer grace to people?

• 2:22:56Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:22:56Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, if, if he was still out there poaching shit, then okay. Off. You just don't get it.

• 2:23:02Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:23:03Cameron Hanes?

  But hey, you say he's like making, making amends. He's doing it right. I can be like, that's awesome.

• 2:23:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:23:10Cameron Hanes?

  I love to hear that and that, that, you know, brings me peace.

• 2:23:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 2:23:15Cameron Hanes?

  And it's like, there's nothing wrong with supporting each other.

• 2:23:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:23:19Cameron Hanes?

  This is especially, well, the, our communities are small, but especially archery. I mean, God, can we really afford to just hate people just randomly and cancel them and just do whatever? It's like. I don't know. I'm, I mean, yeah.

• 2:23:36Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, this is the thing that, that I always come back to and yes, we're all competitive and especially in what you're doing. But even 10, 15 years ago.

• 2:23:47Speaker 01

  Who, who were you competing against?

• 2:23:49Cameron Hanes?

  Me?

• 2:23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, nobody else. You weren't competing against Michael Waddell. You weren't competing against Jim Shockey. You weren't competing against the juries.

• 2:23:57Cameron Hanes?

  Well, in my head, I was.

• 2:24:00Speaker 01

  Correct. But in the real, but in, in the real world of it all, there's plenty of viewers for everybody.

• 2:24:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's what I didn't, you know, Joe, I famously have brought this up, but Joe, he's the one that, I looked at everybody like I needed to crush them, like boot on the neck. You are a competition. If you, if you have anything, you took it from me. And I remember Waddell, one time he called me, our contracts, I think we're both trying to get Under Armour or something like that. Yeah. And Waddell, he's like, he talked about how in the Bass tournament, the, the guys know each other's deals. They kind of, everybody kind of knows, works together a little bit. And he was like saying, we should work together on this Under Armour thing. And I was in my head, I think I said, yeah, that sounds good. But in my

• 2:24:49Cameron Hanes?

  head, I'm like, what? I'm working with you. Anyway, so I had a hard time, like everybody's competition. And, and I've talked to him about this before and I've, I, you know, feel bad that I was like, had that mindset. Oh, my point was Joe, he's the one that really drove home the point that there's enough cake for everybody. Just because you're winning doesn't mean somebody else can't win. And, and that was a huge wake up call to me because I had, coming from a small town where everybody talks shit about everybody. And everybody, basically, if you succeed, it's like shining a bad light on somebody who didn't have the same success. It almost made them feel like a failure.

• 2:25:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:25:29Cameron Hanes?

  So it's like, what? How can he come out of this shithole and be successful, but I can't, you know? So it's like almost success.

• 2:25:37Cameron Hanes?

  Was painful for other people.

• 2:25:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:25:39Cameron Hanes?

  And that was for me, too. And I had that. That's where I came from. So I'm like, no, you're taken from me. And he really, you know, it's just like a, it's just a more mature mindset. But, uh, um, yeah, I think that's the key is like, we can all win.

• 2:25:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:25:55Cameron Hanes?

  We can all win. It's just like, that's, I, I like to bring people on here to talk about it because I want them to win. I want other people to know your story and to hear your thoughts and to hear your perspective and your history on archery. I want people to, to appreciate you like I do. So, yeah, I've totally changed now. Tell me, for people who want to make this a career.

• 2:26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:19Cameron Hanes?

  What can they expect? Like, like, how much money could, like, somebody who wants to be a professional bow hunter?

• 2:26:26Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:26:27Cameron Hanes?

  What do people make? What are contracts out there these days?

• 2:26:31Speaker 01

  Well, that depends, one, on how good you are and how established you are. Like, they need to keep, let's just be honest here, uh, names like Cam Haynes and Michael Waddell and Levi Morgan and Jim Shockey should just stay out of their mouth.

• 2:26:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:48Speaker 01

  That I just like, don't even, like, I'll put it this way. As things progress, the, the value of Cam's and Michael's and Levi's and Jim Shockey's, we won't see those again.

• 2:27:06Cameron Hanes?

  Hmm.

• 2:27:07Speaker 01

  We're just not gonna.

• 2:27:07Cameron Hanes?

  How come?

• 2:27:09Speaker 01

  Um, uh, cause it's gonna be diluted.

• 2:27:13Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:27:14Speaker 01

  And what's gonna happen is as these companies start looking at these values, like, like I said to you earlier, if I was just Joe Bag of Donuts from a marketing, from a company in marketing and Cam Haynes, Cam Haynes doesn't go to anybody, by the way, but Cam Haynes came to me and said, hey, look, here's my, here's my shit. Sponsor me. Here's how much money. The first thing that someone who is savvy like myself would be like, okay, I need you to print out all of your information for your platforms, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and I need to see your demographic information of sexes,

• 2:27:53Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:27:53Speaker 01

  ages, locations.

• 2:27:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:27:56Speaker 01

  Because for me, that's gonna tell me, one, who is your core audience?

• 2:28:00Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:28:00Speaker 01

  And that's gonna tell me if, you know, is that a target audience for me? If if you you wouldn't be, of course, but if I look at your thing and I'm like thirteen to seventeen year old girls, eighty two percent.

• 2:28:19Speaker 01

  Kind of content you putting out, bro? Yeah. I don't have a product. Right. For thirteen to seventeen year old girls. Yeah. And so, but not everybody can do that. Right. Understand the process. And so if you are getting into this fresh, you know, you're probably depending on your amount of production cost. Like, that's one thing that a lot of people don't understand is your guys that have full-fledged hunting shows right now that show up with multiple cameramen that are on site, I mean, they're spending twenty five, thirty thousand dollars a hunt. To be there. Right.

• 2:28:59Speaker 01

  I'm not talking about if if they own the property, you don't even want to know how much that costs. Right. But if they're just showing up to an outfitter to hunt and they got two cameramen, they got themselves, they got travel, they got all and then the editing cost of putting episodes together. It's way more money than you could even imagine. And so for me, when I start answering a question about, you know, what's the potential revenue? Well, the the revenue is one thing, the barrier of entry for cost is another. Using the James Visser, it's him and his wife and they do all their editing themselves. So they have travel, hunt expenses. And so if you're doing your editing yourself, you're going to be you're going to be able to be in the black a lot quicker.

• 2:29:43Speaker 01

  But generally speaking, if you are going to be successful in this as a hunting, as a hunting entity, you're probably going to be, number one, you're going to have to come out of pocket to start. Yeah. Because you ain't Levi Morgan. Right. You weren't coming into it with a built-in audience. You're not coming into it with a built-in skill level. Like, no company looks at Levi and goes, well, I wonder how good he can shoot. Right. Yeah. It's not happening. Right. And so in that regard, you're probably going to start off, you would be hard-pressed to probably not lose. If you're going to do it regularly and you're going to actually travel.

• 2:30:23Speaker 01

  Probably going to lose anywhere from 20 to $40,000 a year for the first couple of years. So you're gonna have to

• 2:30:30Cameron Hanes?

  As a, so you're like a professional bow hunter.

• 2:30:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:30:33Cameron Hanes?

  You're losing money.

• 2:30:34Speaker 01

  To start.

• 2:30:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:35Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Unless you come into it with clout.

• 2:30:39Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah.

• 2:30:40Speaker 01

  You know.

• 2:30:40Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's, because I, I just, I'm trying to envision myself back in the day. And I didn't make money for long.

• 2:30:48Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 2:30:49Cameron Hanes?

  I, I'm trying to paint this picture for people.

• 2:30:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:52Cameron Hanes?

  It's, uh, everybody, not everybody, a lot of people have this dream. They want to be successful and usually when you're successful, you get opportunities. When in this industry, maybe you get, your face gets out there. Maybe people know who you are because that's kind of what these young guys want.

• 2:31:07Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:31:08Cameron Hanes?

  So I'm just trying to paint the picture on what it might take to get to, to your goal.

• 2:31:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:31:13Cameron Hanes?

  And this money part, I don't know if, I mean, I think, uh, social media has helped, like sometimes codes can pay off. Like, I don't know how often you guys do codes or, uh, Brent or like, uh, partnership deals. People can make revenue from that. That's only if they're selling product.

• 2:31:32Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:31:32Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Cause they're getting a percentage, the, the Boomer 10, you're getting 10% of that sale. Right. So, um, anyway, point is, is like, this takes time and investment. It's no different than any other business.

• 2:31:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:31:48Cameron Hanes?

  So I'm just curious, like, you explained that well, but, uh, yeah. So once you've paid your dues, so like even for me, I know without even looking, top two cities, LA, New York, 24 to 35 males, um, 90% male.

• 2:32:09Cameron Hanes?

  Pay me. That's who buys shit.

• 2:32:11Speaker 01

  Straight cash money, homie.

• 2:32:13Cameron Hanes?

  That's who buys shit in our industry.

• 2:32:15Speaker 01

  It is.

• 2:32:15Cameron Hanes?

  And Houston's in there too, and a couple, maybe, uh, yeah, but those three big cities. So anyway, if you're reaching, you said like the 13 to 17 year old girls, you don't have a product for that. So most of archery, my demo is who they want to hit.

• 2:32:31Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 2:32:31Cameron Hanes?

  So if your demo is different, not going to work.

• 2:32:35Speaker 01

  Correct. Well, and here, here's a great example, Crispy.

• 2:32:38Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:32:39Speaker 01

  You know who Crispy is. So Crispy, at AAE, I was Chris and his sister's first sponsor.

• 2:32:46Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:32:47Speaker 01

  I had to talk to his dad because they were minors.

• 2:32:49Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, yeah.

• 2:32:49Speaker 01

  And so, but Chris came up through the professional ranks. Chris is not Levi Morgan either, but he could shoot very, very good. But he started making content while he was shooting professionally. He kept shooting tournaments and making his content. And then he found a niche for his content.

• 2:33:08Speaker 01

  Now you don't see him at a whole lot of tournaments. You see him at tax, but instead you see him on YouTube and Instagram with fat numbers of followers.

• 2:33:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:16Speaker 01

  So he built his off of his professional archery and using that to integrate that into his content.

• 2:33:25Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:33:26Speaker 01

  And his content wasn't necessarily, I'm a pro, check me out. It was, hey, I shoot professionally. I can shoot pretty good. And then he started finding a niche for his content. So he's kind of an anomaly in that way either, but he's also a great example. Now, because his content took off. Yeah, he's not losing money.

• 2:33:47Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:33:48Speaker 01

  At all.

• 2:33:48Cameron Hanes?

  I wonder what he's making. What would you, what did you think he's making? Give these young guys some, something to dream.

• 2:33:56Speaker 01

  It's a lot.

• 2:33:57Cameron Hanes?

  Like a million a year?

• 2:33:59Speaker 01

  Uh, no, no, no. Um, I don't know what his ad revenue is from socials and all that.

• 2:34:03Cameron Hanes?

  Is anybody making a million a year?

• 2:34:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:34:05Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yes.

• 2:34:11Speaker 01

  Everyone listening is not them.

• 2:34:13Cameron Hanes?

  I understand.

• 2:34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so generally speaking, then we start talking about, well, how many available resources for income are you going to have? Like, let's take you, bows, arrows, sights. I know you don't do a lot of the small stuff. You are partnered with gas from recollection. Sitka.

• 2:34:35Speaker 01

  I think grizzly. Black Rifle Coffee.

• 2:34:39Cameron Hanes?

  Sig.

• 2:34:40Speaker 01

  Sig. I see some Kill Cliffs. Are those part of the mix?

• 2:34:44Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, not, not really so much. I mean, I, we have this drink and it's, it's good. I like it, but, but Black Rifle now has an energy drink.

• 2:34:51Speaker 01

  Oh, they do?

• 2:34:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:52Speaker 01

  Where are they at?

• 2:34:53Cameron Hanes?

  Come on.

• 2:34:54Speaker 01

  Well, yes, I do.

• 2:34:56Cameron Hanes?

  Can you grab them one?

• 2:34:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And so, so you have all these different available categories.

• 2:35:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:35:04Speaker 01

  I like James Visser. He's not going to get butthurt about this. James Visser is not going to have as, from Bow Disciples.

• 2:35:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:10Speaker 01

  Is not going to have as many available categories as.

• 2:35:15Cameron Hanes?

  Sure. Thank you.

• 2:35:18Speaker 01

  Freedom punch. Nice.

• 2:35:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:21Speaker 01

  Um, so he's, he's not going to have as many available categories, meaning Grizzly and Sitka and all these non archery product categories are not going to come to him yet.

• 2:35:34Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:35:35Speaker 01

  He'll have to build up to that. So the way he's doing it is pretty savvy, doing his editing himself and all that kind of stuff. So he's probably going to

• 2:35:43Cameron Hanes?

  Low overhead. That means he doesn't need to, to pitch a bunch of big contracts to these people. So I think like, it's pretty good, huh?

• 2:35:53Speaker 01

  Damn, that's pretty good.

• 2:35:55Cameron Hanes?

  I like it.

• 2:35:56Speaker 01

  I was waiting for that at the end, but it doesn't have it. Good.

• 2:36:00Cameron Hanes?

  But that, I think that's set up well because most people in this industry start off with like this.

• 2:36:08Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:36:09Cameron Hanes?

  How much can you pay me? Instead of like, let me show you what I can do and then we'll talk. So with him having that low overhead, I think I just saw he went over a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube, which we know that YouTube is the biggest platform right now.

• 2:36:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:25Cameron Hanes?

  So smart to, to push hard towards that, but also smart to not have to have these huge, like the overhead requires you to, you need more money to pay for all that. It requires you to ask for more. These companies get asked for too much every day. So

• 2:36:43Speaker 01

  Bingo.

• 2:36:44Cameron Hanes?

  I like his approach in that, yeah, maybe he's not getting the non-endemics yet, the giant sponsors, but he's working up to it and he's not, he's not, um, burning bridges by saying, because I've, I've heard people like, um, some of my sponsors be like, yeah, we heard from this guy. And he's like, do you know what he asked for? And be like, what the?

• 2:37:05Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:37:05Cameron Hanes?

  So that is hard to get past shit like that.

• 2:37:09Speaker 01

  It's very hard.

• 2:37:10Cameron Hanes?

  These people don't forget that.

• 2:37:11Speaker 01

  No, and it also shows them that they're believing, they're believing things they're told. Like, there's a perfect example. You hunt down on the rez.

• 2:37:23Speaker 01

  Did you do that 25 years ago?

• 2:37:25Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 2:37:25Speaker 01

  Why?

• 2:37:26Cameron Hanes?

  Uh huh. Couldn't afford it, couldn't get the opportunity. Yeah.

• 2:37:29Speaker 01

  Just couldn't afford it.

• 2:37:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:37:32Speaker 01

  But end of, end of, end of sentence.

• 2:37:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:35Speaker 01

  Well, you can now.

• 2:37:36Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:37:37Speaker 01

  James from both disciples, he couldn't afford it right now either.

• 2:37:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right, yeah.

• 2:37:41Speaker 01

  But he doesn't hate on everybody or pretend that he's going to. So he takes the fun route, the hunting route, and he has a real good niche.

• 2:37:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:47Speaker 01

  And so if you're going to get into this, unless you're independently wealthy, plan on losing, excuse me, I'm going to rephrase that. Plan on investing

• 2:37:57Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:37:58Speaker 01

  20 to, 20 to $40,000 into your own growth.

• 2:38:05Speaker 01

  That's the nicest way I can put it.

• 2:38:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:07Speaker 01

  Into your own growth until you become net zero.

• 2:38:12Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:38:14Speaker 01

  Don't plan on making money right off the bat. It's not happening.

• 2:38:16Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:38:17Speaker 01

  It's just not.

• 2:38:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:19Speaker 01

  Every single company has the next whoever coming to them saying, hey, here's what I want. And what you're talking about is called the rate card. Like if you ask me, hey, I'm Cam Haynes. What am I, what am I worth for arrows?

• 2:38:36Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:38:37Speaker 01

  And this goes back to the Michael Waddell thing. The reason that we don't have the transparency that professional sports have is we don't have a, a union, so we don't have a collective bargaining agreement, a CBA.

• 2:38:47Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:38:47Speaker 01

  When

• 2:38:51Speaker 01

  Tom Brady signs a contract, everybody knows.

• 2:38:55Cameron Hanes?

  Everybody knows, yeah.

• 2:38:55Speaker 01

  Everybody knows his bonuses.

• 2:38:57Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:38:57Speaker 01

  When he gets this, when he gets this million dollar bonus, when he gets that, when he gets this. Cause they have a collective bargaining agreement. So it's protected.

• 2:39:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:05Speaker 01

  Legally.

• 2:39:06Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:39:06Speaker 01

  We don't have that.

• 2:39:07Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:39:08Speaker 01

  And companies in our space, still kind of a good old boys network, they don't want

• 2:39:13Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:39:14Speaker 01

  everybody knowing what everybody makes. And it's not because, it's not because they don't think people are worth it. They don't want people hearing what Cam Haynes makes and then going.

• 2:39:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's what that's what I should be making. No, it shouldn't.

• 2:39:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. If you want Joe Rogan to come do a comedy skit or whatever at your birthday party, there's a price for that.

• 2:39:44Cameron Hanes?

  It costs a lot.

• 2:39:44Speaker 01

  It's gonna cost a lot.

• 2:39:46Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:47Speaker 01

  If you want Dave Chappelle to come, it costs a lot.

• 2:39:50Cameron Hanes?

  What if I want you to come? Is it gonna cost less?

• 2:39:53Speaker 01

  The comedy will be different than what you're expecting.

• 2:39:55Cameron Hanes?

  But it will cost less.

• 2:39:56Speaker 01

  It'll cost way less.

• 2:39:57Cameron Hanes?

  So that's how it works.

• 2:39:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's exactly how it works. That's exactly how it works.

• 2:40:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:03Speaker 01

  And so the companies in our space want to keep that secret or want to keep that private. And most contracts, it says, do not divulge blah, blah, blah compensation. But it's not because they're worried about Hoyt, Neiston, or whoever else doesn't give a shit if how much they pay Cam Haynes becomes public because Cam Haynes is worth it. They don't want it to become public because a whole bunch of people who aren't worth it are all of a sudden gonna measure themselves by it. No different than all the shit you have in this room that you've killed that is elite level and everyone wants to compare themselves to you for it.

• 2:40:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:40:41Speaker 01

  And that's just not how it works.

• 2:40:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:43Speaker 01

  If I'm driving an F-150 standard cab, gas engine with vinyl floor mats and roll up windows and someone pulls up next to me in an F-350 crew cab, long bed, diesel platinum, I don't get bent.

• 2:40:58Speaker 01

  I just go.

• 2:40:59Cameron Hanes?

  Must be nice. That's a nice truck. Must be nice for them.

• 2:41:03Speaker 01

  Right? That's a nice truck.

• 2:41:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:05Speaker 01

  And so, but that's the reason companies don't want to do that. So, you know, if you were gonna start in this right now, you're probably, unless you do it wisely and you do your own editing and you're not going on San Carlos Hunt's first year on credit cards.

• 2:41:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:22Speaker 01

  You're, you're gonna, you're gonna invest money into yourself for probably two to three years until you can be zero.

• 2:41:29Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:41:29Speaker 01

  Then you can start expanding by the growth of your, of your.

• 2:41:34Cameron Hanes?

  If you're producing, if you're growing, if you're not up for getting your hunter safety card, like you still have to, a lot of shit still has to go right.

• 2:41:43Speaker 01

  Right. Well, using Joe Rogan as an example, how many times did Joe Rogan go to comedy clubs and alleys that were just shitholes to practice his craft way back when he? Yeah. Had hair. Yeah, paying dues. Paying dues. But no, I mean, so that's exactly what it is. So I would plan on investing into yourself. Unless you're a rare case, plan on investing in yourself for at least three years and then hope to break even after three years. Then, as your, as your sponsorships grow, you can expand your network of content. The other part of it is luckily, it's not who you blow, it's who you know these days.

• 2:42:26Speaker 01

  Back in the olden days, like I could tell you a story upon stories, when I was a marketing manager for Gold Tip and shows would be like, Craig, yeah, man, you know, if we get this deal done, we'll bring you on out here and put you on a 180. And I'm like, I don't hunt with anybody that I'm in negotiations with. Yeah. Period.

• 2:42:51Speaker 01

  But in our industry, marketing people getting free hunts is kinda like politicians getting kickbacks. Yeah. Most everybody does it. That's the way it goes. And I just never did it because fundamentally, I'm like, no. Yeah. Just not doing it. Yeah. And so, but who you know is also incredibly valuable. Yeah, for sure. Whether it's, whether it's someone like me that knows a bunch of people or like a you. Like if, if someone was, was starting out in this and they were legit and they were like, and they were, you could vouch for them. You could call, you could call Jeremy and be like, hey dude, this guy's. Yeah. This guy's gonna be something. I'm not saying to pay him 50 Gs off the bat, but he's gonna, he's gonna make it. Yeah.

• 2:43:36Speaker 01

  That helps as well. Yeah, for sure. And so having, having someone else vouch for you, which guys like you and me, not that we're on the same level, but we don't vouch for many people. No. For a reason. Yeah. So when we do. Means something. It means something. Yeah. Like, you know, I've been doing this so long, I've done shit for. A lot of people, but I don't ever ask for anything.

• 2:44:02Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:44:02Speaker 01

  Like you and I have, you know, known quote unquote each other and you know, we're not like besties. We don't take long walks on the beach together and all that kind of bullshit, but I've never asked you for a thing.

• 2:44:12Cameron Hanes?

  No, but you, you've tried to, you've put yourself out to help me, which I appreciate like.

• 2:44:18Speaker 01

  Well, that's different.

• 2:44:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a, yeah, it's, no, I understand what you're saying for sure. Um.

• 2:44:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It just basically it takes time. It takes time to, to earn a name in the industry and then to earn money. Like the name, you have to do the name first.

• 2:44:36Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:44:37Cameron Hanes?

  Then the money will come once you've proven yourself, but yeah, it's not, not as quick as some people. I like your point about the low overhead can make a big difference. That's a, that's a great approach. I do, I think with the cameras nowadays, like Ty, we talked about his content is pretty high level.

• 2:44:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:44:55Cameron Hanes?

  And it doesn't take a huge team to do that. So that's good because

• 2:44:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:45:00Cameron Hanes?

  As I said, attention is currency. You get good content. People like it more, but there's like this weird uh dichotomy too, where if James makes me a kick ass reel, I can do a selfie video of my, of just me that does more. So there's like this weird thing, like people want authenticity.

• 2:45:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:45:23Cameron Hanes?

  Over, that's, that's where sometimes I think like the industry misses the mark is we're so used to the studio shots and the polished stuff that nowadays with social media, they just want real. So if it's looks too good, it almost gets less reach than if it's just authentic.

• 2:45:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:45:42Cameron Hanes?

  So that's like a, a challenge too for people.

• 2:45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and so speaking of Ty and look, I've, I've only met Ty once. I don't.

• 2:45:49Cameron Hanes?

  I didn't really know him.

• 2:45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know the kid. I just, I've met him once at a TAC event, so don't take this out of context, but I'm paying attention to him right now for, for, for a couple of reasons. One, I like to watch arrows fly too.

• 2:46:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, everybody does.

• 2:46:03Speaker 01

  His videos, shooting different bows, adjust the sound. Okay.

• 2:46:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:07Speaker 01

  That's not sustainable.

• 2:46:10Speaker 01

  So one of the reasons that I'm watching Ty right now is it's clear to me as a dork that he is building his platform, but he's gonna have to transition it to the next level.

• 2:46:24Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:46:24Speaker 01

  I'm paying attention for James Visser. I already, that's obvious what's gonna happen.

• 2:46:28Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:29Speaker 01

  But with Ty, I'm watching him specifically because I'm paying attention for when he takes what he's building and takes it to the next level.

• 2:46:38Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:46:39Speaker 01

  I don't know him.

• 2:46:40Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:46:41Speaker 01

  So I can't tell you what, what he's gonna do. But I can tell you, he's going to have to do something because watching the arrows fly and the videos that he makes are cool and you can see his numbers are going up. But he can't do that forever.

• 2:46:55Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 2:46:56Speaker 01

  And he's obviously a smart kid.

• 2:46:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:59Speaker 01

  So I'm watching him specifically to see when's his-

• 2:47:02Cameron Hanes?

  What's the next move?

• 2:47:03Speaker 01

  What's his Cam Haynes 2008 moment?

• 2:47:05Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:06Speaker 01

  What is he gonna do to start? I mean, I could, is he all, is he gonna start with getting technical content? Is he gonna start with way more hunts? Is it like equipment, like what's his next step gonna be to continue his ascension?

• 2:47:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And a lot of people don't make that move.

• 2:47:24Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:47:25Cameron Hanes?

  Don't make that adjustment. They get this little bump of attention and then they never really figure out how to get to the next level. That's most people.

• 2:47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:33Cameron Hanes?

  That's why it's like, there's only, I, I mean, there's only a handful of people making a bunch of like a living in hunting, in bow hunting specifically. But because you have to figure out, how do I keep growing? How do I keep growing this thing? How do I keep reaching more people? How do I? It's hard.

• 2:47:50Speaker 01

  Have a plan. You have to have a plan.

• 2:47:52Cameron Hanes?

  Hard. It's hard. There's so much competition out there, not just in bow hunting. And everybody's on their phone. What are you doing that's gonna stand out?

• 2:48:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:48:02Cameron Hanes?

  That's not gonna be negative, like I talked about, you know, with Josh in the, in the, in the baboon. But so, yeah, how do we grow without stumbling?

• 2:48:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:48:14Cameron Hanes?

  It's like, it's tough.

• 2:48:16Speaker 01

  Right. Well, and, and that's part of having, like, I've talked to James Visser about this. That's why I didn't bring him up in that example, because I've literally asked, because I sponsor him at Beast.

• 2:48:25Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 2:48:26Speaker 01

  And- I'm I'm him. I'm that guy. Like, if you if you've ever been sponsored by me, like, we did the AAE thing years ago. Yeah. I ask specific questions because I want to know. I didn't have to ask him, you already knew your program. But like with James, I'm like, okay, I see what you're doing. You're about the fun of it. Yeah. I'm about that. Right. Not many people do that. But then what? Mm hmm. Then what are you doing? And he literally laid out his strategy. Mm hmm. And it's incremental. There's I'm gonna do this. He's smart. Yeah. And I don't know Ty well enough to ask him that. If I ever hung out with him, I probably would. If I see him at ATA, I will probably ask him that because I I care and I see potential in the kid.

• 2:49:11Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And so, in that regard, it's something that that I do pay attention to. But generally speaking, once you get into this and you are actually sustainable, and you get enough categories to be sustainable, your most guys would probably be well off if they were clearing after expenses. If you're in the if you're in the 50 to 75,000 after expenses within five years, you're you're doing very well. Yeah, that's pretty good money. Now, that's not without working. That's just doing what you do. Yeah. A lot of these guys are working for companies as well. That's not what I'm talking about. Right.

• 2:49:55Speaker 01

  I'm talking about just doing your content thing and getting compensated for it. Yeah. So in five years, if you're 50 to 75 in the black, you're doing very, very well, and you are going to be on your way to not a million, but you'll be on your way to get there. Yeah, yeah, gotcha. And so, with one thing that the television hunting did is it is it limited that? Because there was no social media to speak of. Yeah. So there's only X number of shows, so there's only X number of dollars. Yep. While YouTube doesn't have a limit. Yeah. And so now, when you start looking at at things, you know, like Greg Glessinger, his YouTube doubled in 2025. Wow.

• 2:50:38Speaker 01

  And that was just through pure attention to detail. He's a fifty, fifty something year old guy, very well spoken, super nice dude. He read the room. He understands the assignment and he has the pedigree in hunting to substantiate his new strategy. Well, as a young guy, pay attention to that kind of stuff.

• 2:51:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:03Speaker 01

  You don't have to be Greg Glessinger out there hammering one eighties to two hundreds like they're for free.

• 2:51:09Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:09Speaker 01

  You don't gotta do that, but pay attention to what some of these folks are doing because if you think it was competitive when you were coming up.

• 2:51:18Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man.

• 2:51:19Speaker 01

  Right now.

• 2:51:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:20Speaker 01

  Dude, it's the wild, wild west.

• 2:51:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's tough out there.

• 2:51:23Speaker 01

  Because hunting television is transitioning to something that most people are not even going to be familiar with. And Instagram, YouTube.

• 2:51:33Cameron Hanes?

  And everybody's got a phone, so everybody can post on that shit. So if you're not standing out, that's what I always say too, it's like for these young guys, I want to see these young guys kicking ass, but it's just like,

• 2:51:46Cameron Hanes?

  if you're gonna take my spot, you better get to work.

• 2:51:50Speaker 01

  Oh, that's, well, I mean.

• 2:51:52Cameron Hanes?

  I'm like, come take it because I look at, as I said, I haven't given up the whole everybody's competition thing. My approach every day is like, people want what I have.

• 2:52:04Speaker 01

  You think?

• 2:52:06Cameron Hanes?

  They would love to have these opportunities and I'm like, cool, come take it.

• 2:52:12Speaker 01

  But here's the problem with that camp.

• 2:52:15Speaker 01

  We all know the stories of the old lions.

• 2:52:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:18Speaker 01

  It's easier to get to the top than to stay at the top. Some shoes can't be filled.

• 2:52:27Speaker 01

  And. You may not like, you'll probably like to hear it, but you'll, like myself, you get a little bit squeamish when people start. If you were to go away right this second, nobody is going to fill your role.

• 2:52:47Speaker 01

  Nobody.

• 2:52:49Speaker 01

  Not that someone can't go hunt San Carlos and kill big bulls.

• 2:52:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:53Speaker 01

  I'm talking about Cam Haynes, the entity. No one's going to fill that, that's not going to create a vacuum because you are the vacuum.

• 2:53:04Cameron Hanes?

  I get what you're saying, yeah.

• 2:53:05Speaker 01

  So, so for you, it's like, if you think you can come take it, try to come take it, but they don't know what they're taking.

• 2:53:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that, well, my, my attitude is like, I'm just gonna, I'm, whatever I've done before, I'm only doing more now. So it's like, I'm always like, look, I don't really look over my shoulder, but I, I, that's what the feeling I want to have. I want to have that people are coming to take what I have, so I better.

• 2:53:31Speaker 01

  Being pushed.

• 2:53:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and it's like, that's why I had a hard, the hardest time with, um, remember when all the girls were coming in? And, uh, everybody's all but heard about, oh, these girls are getting marketing and it's like, they haven't killed anything. They're just hot with a bow. I'm like, if you can't beat that, if you're a guy and you're supposed to be this badass bow hunter, and you can't beat just some hot girl who doesn't really have any credibility, just being hot, then you don't have what it takes.

• 2:54:00Speaker 01

  Facts.

• 2:54:01Cameron Hanes?

  You don't have what it takes. You were never going to make it if that's all it took. If you can't make yourself more marketable than that, you're, because I, I love seeing the girls come in. It was great. It's like, who doesn't want to see a girl holding a bow? If you're hot, it's even better, but I didn't take it as a threat.

• 2:54:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:54:20Cameron Hanes?

  It's like, no, I'm, this is not what I do. So if they're kicking ass in, in what they do, awesome, has nothing to do with me. But I saw so many guys that were so upset that these girls were getting these opportunities. So it's like. Work harder. What are you crying about?

• 2:54:37Speaker 01

  Well, and the, the problem is like Carl's Jr. With the smoking hot chicks, eating the big giant burgers that are dripping all over their.

• 2:54:44Cameron Hanes?

  I'll watch that commercial.

• 2:54:46Speaker 01

  So will I. Doesn't make me want to go watch, go eat a Carl's Jr.'s burger, but I'll sure as shit watch it.

• 2:54:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:52Speaker 01

  And do you think she's eating a Carl's?

• 2:54:55Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 2:54:55Speaker 01

  Hell, no.

• 2:54:56Cameron Hanes?

  She spit that shit out.

• 2:54:58Speaker 01

  We all know, we all know what sells in marketing.

• 2:55:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:00Speaker 01

  And sex and women sell everything.

• 2:55:03Cameron Hanes?

  It's never going to change.

• 2:55:04Speaker 01

  No. And so if some woman, and this is, dude, I got asked this a bunch. So as these women are getting these deals, guys are comparing their number of likes to their number of likes. And I'm like,

• 2:55:16Cameron Hanes?

  What are you talking about?

• 2:55:17Speaker 01

  First of all, you're not gonna get as many likes as them because half of those, half of those dudes are saving that picture for the spank bank.

• 2:55:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:26Speaker 01

  So they're not converting.

• 2:55:28Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 2:55:29Speaker 01

  At all.

• 2:55:30Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 2:55:30Speaker 01

  So don't worry about what they're doing. Worry about what you're doing because you can have a page that's a tenth of the size and tell, sell 10 times the product.

• 2:55:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:41Speaker 01

  But they're trying to compare themselves on levels that don't apply.

• 2:55:45Cameron Hanes?

  Doesn't matter.

• 2:55:46Speaker 01

  At all. And it's no different than someone anywhere trying to compare themselves to you and Joe on a hunt in the San Carlos and being like, oh, well, that's only because, that's only because they can.

• 2:55:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:55:59Speaker 01

  And if you want to save your pennies and you want to do what you need to do, you can too. It's a free country.

• 2:56:05Cameron Hanes?

  And if you want to pay for PSC to advertise in a magazine on your way up, good luck.

• 2:56:10Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so that's the whole point. And so folks just don't understand the comparative side of this.

• 2:56:18Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:19Speaker 01

  And, you know, it just is what it is, but it's, it's part of our culture. And the problem is, we don't have enough, my opinion, we don't have enough people in marketing departments in these companies that understand that dynamic.

• 2:56:35Speaker 01

  Period.

• 2:56:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's that. That's kind of like, I don't know, I've always been. I don't even know what, but I bet on myself quite a bit and I, I, you'll appreciate this story, but uh, I had this deal that I negotiated and I just said, I don't want any money upfront. I don't give a, but I want 25% royalty. And they're like, I said, so if I don't sell shit, you don't pay me anything. Problem was first quarter came in, brought me a check for the first quarter, $187,000.

• 2:57:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:57:11Cameron Hanes?

  They're like, we can't do this. We can't. So the 25% royalty was too much. Like I didn't want to hurt the company, but it's just like, that's, that's one approach. The hot girls, their royalty would be nothing because you said they're not moving anything. They're like, guys like it. Who doesn't like big tits? Oh, I like that. That's cool. They're not buying anything.

• 2:57:35Speaker 01

  No conversion.

• 2:57:36Cameron Hanes?

  Girls got an OnlyFans page, but it's just like, so bet on yourself, but can you produce?

• 2:57:41Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 2:57:42Cameron Hanes?

  I know I can produce. So I'm like, I don't need any money. If this is easier for you to accept this, to sign this deal and agree to pay me 25% royalty. Great. I don't, I don't need, I don't want money for nothing. And so I believe in, I know I can produce, but it's like, that's, that's one approach you can take. I see these guys, um, I want them to be hungry, but I also want them to believe in what they can offer. Not be distracted by this, by these, the girl competition, not be whatever. It's like, get your lane and own it.

• 2:58:13Speaker 01

  Right. Well, and a lot of these folks want to get into this based off things they've heard. And then they, they expect the companies to foot the bill for them to make themselves successful. And it's like, that's just not how it works at all. You know, when I took over Bojunkie in 2016, I told, and I know every company.

• 2:58:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:33Speaker 01

  And I called them all and I said, Hey, my wife and I took this some bitch over because I think the sport needs it.

• 2:58:40Speaker 01

  I'm not going to accept any money. I'm going to self-fund it until the product is what I, what I think it needs to be.

• 2:58:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:49Speaker 01

  Then I'll call you. Took about three months and I was like, yeah, this.

• 2:58:54Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:58:56Speaker 01

  And literally every single phone call about time.

• 2:59:00Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's awesome.

• 2:59:01Speaker 01

  So this is the same. If you, what's the name of that book again? Undeniable.

• 2:59:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:08Speaker 01

  If you make what you're doing or yourself, depending on your brand, undeniable, you won't have to, you won't have to ask.

• 2:59:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:17Speaker 01

  People will, will search you out.

• 2:59:19Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it's true. There, there is, here's the, the, a pet peeve, I, not a pet peeve, but it's just business. Sometimes these long-term deals, they can get complacent.

• 2:59:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:59:32Cameron Hanes?

  Like, and sometimes you have to remind them.

• 2:59:33Speaker 01

  The company or the athlete?

• 2:59:35Cameron Hanes?

  Well, both. But I've been in, since you, in contracts where, you know, I was paid off this certain value because that was where I was. But then you get to a different place and you're like, wait a second. What was my reach at this, when we signed this contract? Let's take another look at that. So it, the, the companies can get complacent on thinking that, oh, they've shot, you know, our, or used our equipment forever. They're, they're never going to leave. It's just like, I wouldn't be so sure of that. I mean, it's still just like, and you know, I, I had to have, I talked to Hoyt about this. It's like,

• 3:00:16Cameron Hanes?

  you know, Chuck Adams shot Hoyt. Chuck Adams is the biggest name in bow hunting forever, for years. For 200 and some Pope Young Animals, seven world records. He's not shooting Hoyt anymore.

• 3:00:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:00:29Cameron Hanes?

  So not, I mean, I'm marketable now, but I'm not going to be marketable forever. So it's like, I have to take advantage of where I'm at right now because as soon as I'm not moving the needle, I'm gone.

• 3:00:44Speaker 01

  I don't know if gone's the right word, Cam.

• 3:00:46Cameron Hanes?

  Well.

• 3:00:47Speaker 01

  But you are.

• 3:00:47Cameron Hanes?

  My value's less.

• 3:00:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:00:49Cameron Hanes?

  How about that?

• 3:00:50Speaker 01

  Yes, there is a crossover point. And so, but you're smart enough. You're smart enough, I have a hundred percent faith that as you, as you do what you do changes, whether it's not been able to run 200 miles at a time, or some of the hardcore stuff you do, as your body and your mind tells you that you need to modify how you're doing what you're doing, you will also be cognitive of the fact that that will affect your compensation.

• 3:01:20Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:21Speaker 01

  And so, not that it will completely go away, but you're smart enough that you will modify.

• 3:01:27Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:28Speaker 01

  What you do.

• 3:01:29Cameron Hanes?

  That's the name of the game.

• 3:01:30Speaker 01

  To remain that relevant. Even if you're not doing some of the things you used to.

• 3:01:35Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:35Speaker 01

  And at your, at your age and your fitness level, and I know you've done the most hardcore shit ever to be a better hunter, hundred percent.

• 3:01:46Speaker 01

  Even when you can't physically do, it's obviously not right now. But when you can't physically do the shit you do right now, you're going to be smart enough to modify things to remain just as relevant because you're still going to be physically a better bow hunter than 99.9% of the people out there.

• 3:02:06Cameron Hanes?

  I don't know.

• 3:02:07Speaker 01

  That's just business.

• 3:02:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, maybe, maybe, yeah. I've, I've recalibrated many times.

• 3:02:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:02:13Cameron Hanes?

  Throughout this journey, from, as we talked about, social media advent of that. But yeah, I mean, if you, if you can't change, yeah, you're, I mean, you're definitely shooting yourself in the foot as far as longevity goes. But yeah, if you're always evolving, that, I think that's, that's kind of what you're, you're alluding to. And I don't want people to think that this is all money related. I mean, we're talking about business because I'm, I'm interested in it and I like it. And, you know, I've been in numbers, I was a buyer for 20 years or so. Numbers, to me, it's like, money's just a measurable. It's not, I don't give a, I have whatever, I don't need anything. But.

• 3:02:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:02:52Cameron Hanes?

  It's just a, it's a good measuring stick on how things are working, if it's going well. Because I'll be honest right now. I don't, I hadn't, I mean, I had an offer for more money than I get from my both sponsor this year and I didn't take it. So it's like, it's not, I'm not always just like obsessed with money and like getting the most. I don't, I don't give a really other than I want to make sure that I'm being, my, my worth is valued. That's it. That's all I'm trying to do.

• 3:03:24Speaker 01

  Fairly compensated for your value.

• 3:03:26Cameron Hanes?

  That's it.

• 3:03:26Speaker 01

  And that's all it boils down to like, so, but I mean, the equipment side is one thing and I have a saying and it's, and I don't say it very often, but I'll, I'll say it to you is this, it's like, it, it's not the equipment that makes you successful. It's how you're equipped for success.

• 3:03:46Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, I agree with that.

• 3:03:49Speaker 01

  It's between your ears.

• 3:03:50Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:50Speaker 01

  And so no matter what equipment you have, that's not what makes you successful. It's how equipped Cam is for success.

• 3:03:58Cameron Hanes?

  Right. Yeah.

• 3:04:00Speaker 01

  And that's what's made you successful. And so for, for anyone that's watch, you know, watching or listening to this, you just have to understand that you can use Michael Waddell or Levi or you or anyone as motivation, but they're not going to be any of you guys.

• 3:04:16Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 3:04:17Speaker 01

  You're not going to be a 742 time world champion like Levi Morgan. You're not running 25 miles in the morning for shits and giggles and 150 mile marathons. You're not, that's, you're not doing that.

• 3:04:31Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 3:04:31Speaker 01

  And, you know, you're not going to have the network that Cam Haynes has, or you're not going to, you know, the, the era that Michael Waddell came up in.

• 3:04:40Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 3:04:40Speaker 01

  You're not coming up in that era.

• 3:04:42Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:42Speaker 01

  You know, you look at the, you know, I was just having to tune into some football the other day. It's not the same game anymore.

• 3:04:49Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 3:04:50Speaker 01

  At all. Like they call roughing the passer. Yeah. They call roughing the passer for a dude that hit the quarterback in the head on accident with his hand.

• 3:04:58Cameron Hanes?

  I know. Crazy.

• 3:05:00Speaker 01

  So there, who's ever going to measure up to Tom Brady as the GOAT of quarterbacks when you can't touch him?

• 3:05:07Cameron Hanes?

  Things change. Things change. You have to evolve.

• 3:05:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:05:10Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:11Speaker 01

  So.

• 3:05:11Cameron Hanes?

  And you can't be pointing to different examples and different whatever. He's like, worry about yourself.

• 3:05:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:05:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's a, I like talking about this though, because I know there's guy, young guys listening and or old guys, whatever. It doesn't, doesn't matter, but it's like, we can all learn and get better and just kind of get a better idea of how this works. Um, but yeah, I mean, for me, it's like,

• 3:05:35Cameron Hanes?

  money's that measuring stick, but mostly I just have to believe in, you know, like I believe in Hoyt, whatever. It's just like, so I hope that our deal, I feel valued. That's it. Um, I know I produce for them and I believe in the bow. So that's all it takes usually.

• 3:05:51Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I mean, if you were to ask me, I call it my stranded island build.

• 3:05:58Speaker 01

  If you were to put me on a deserted island with archery equipment, what would it be?

• 3:06:02Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. It's what I use.

• 3:06:05Speaker 01

  It'd be a Hoyt bow.

• 3:06:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:06Speaker 01

  A whisker biscuit.

• 3:06:08Cameron Hanes?

  Cause. Yeah, they can't.

• 3:06:11Speaker 01

  Can't break.

• 3:06:11Cameron Hanes?

  No, they can't.

• 3:06:12Speaker 01

  Spot hog sight.

• 3:06:13Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:13Speaker 01

  Probably a, that Jim Fletcher release that I still have.

• 3:06:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:17Speaker 01

  Cause they can never break.

• 3:06:19Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 3:06:19Speaker 01

  Um, and as far as arrows, probably like a super stiff east, east of axis.

• 3:06:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:25Speaker 01

  Something like that.

• 3:06:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:26Speaker 01

  And, uh, uh, fixed blade broadhead that is unbreakable.

• 3:06:32Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:33Speaker 01

  Like, that's it. That way, if something happens, I can beat the animal to death with my bow if needed.

• 3:06:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. Well, you, the strings are a lot better. So you wouldn't have to worry about that. Cause back in the day, our strings were shit.

• 3:06:45Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I was actually helping Tom and Thomas Neely with winner's choice in 2000 when that whole paradigm shift comes. And I know that everybody uses that, but it was B C Y.

• 3:06:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:57Speaker 01

  With the material.

• 3:06:58Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:58Speaker 01

  Is really what, when B C Y and you know, when Bob Destin and them, you know, converted that over, those fibers got so much better. Do you know what B C Y stands for?

• 3:07:09Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 3:07:10Speaker 01

  You're going to shit, but. So you know that Bob Destin, owner of B C Y, used to work for Brownell.

• 3:07:16Cameron Hanes?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 3:07:18Speaker 01

  And so Brownell and him had a falling out, blah, blah, blah. So him and Ray started B C Y. B C Y stands for Brownell Carpet and Yarn.

• 3:07:30Cameron Hanes?

  Was that the name of Brownell?

• 3:07:32Speaker 01

  Brownell was Brownell.

• 3:07:34Cameron Hanes?

  But where did carpet and yarn come from?

• 3:07:36Speaker 01

  Cause they make carpet and yarn.

• 3:07:37Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, gotcha. Okay.

• 3:07:39Speaker 01

  So they make, they make textile fibers.

• 3:07:42Cameron Hanes?

  I see. Yeah. So it's just basically calling what they do. Yeah, that's awesome.

• 3:07:46Speaker 01

  That's pretty gangster.

• 3:07:47Cameron Hanes?

  No, I love it.

• 3:07:48Speaker 01

  But yeah, man.

• 3:07:49Cameron Hanes?

  Stores like that. But yeah, the string, the string, yeah. So point is strings have like evolved so much.

• 3:07:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:07:55Cameron Hanes?

  From, you know, back in the day, I didn't even want to shoot my bow when we got too close to seizing because I knew a serving was going to break, the string was going to stretch, some, some of those get up. So.

• 3:08:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:08:06Cameron Hanes?

  With gas, gas bow strings and you know, there's some great ones out there, but man, this really made a difference.

• 3:08:12Speaker 01

  I run gas as well. I mean, what Eric has done and Eric had a lot of experience. I mean, I don't know if a lot of people know this, but dude, Eric was making strings way the hell long time ago. Way before gas. Eric was into strings.

• 3:08:25Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 3:08:26Speaker 01

  So strings wasn't something he just picked up for shits and giggles.

• 3:08:29Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:29Speaker 01

  He already had a lot of expertise in it.

• 3:08:31Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah. And I, I think that, you know, a lot of the companies will say that they, their strings are as good. They're not as good.

• 3:08:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:08:40Cameron Hanes?

  They're not as good. So, I mean, it, there was a time too, and I know every like bow manufacturer makes its quiver and own stabilizer and own rest and they're getting better, but I would always put other shit on because it was better. You know, Under Armour used to want to pretend like they made everything. So they like you sign a deal with Under Armour that covered sunglasses. It's like, yeah, I know you guys say you guys do this, but these suck.

• 3:09:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:09:09Cameron Hanes?

  That's how bow, the bow industry was kind of like that too, where they wanted to provide everything. Cause I think they could make the dealers, like put pressure on the dealers to buy that shit.

• 3:09:20Speaker 01

  Well, what they do, I mean, I can tell you why that happens. So basically what happens is, is they use the, so dealers make most all their money on accessories, not bows.

• 3:09:31Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, gotcha.

• 3:09:32Speaker 01

  And so what they do is they use accessories to incentivize dealers buying bows. So you buy X amount of bows, you get. These kind of specials are free on these accessories.

• 3:09:45Cameron Hanes?

  I see.

• 3:09:46Speaker 01

  So then you bring in the accessories.

• 3:09:47Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:48Speaker 01

  You have more of their bows, but then you're making even bigger margins on the accessories.

• 3:09:52Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I understand.

• 3:09:53Speaker 01

  You know, and it's like, I have a, I have a 2022 Ford F350 crew cab long bed out there. Do you think it has the stock tires on it?

• 3:10:02Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 3:10:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely not.

• 3:10:03Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no.

• 3:10:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:10:06Cameron Hanes?

  Right.

• 3:10:06Speaker 01

  Same thing. And it's no offense to Hoyt or Matthews.

• 3:10:09Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 3:10:09Speaker 01

  Any of the bow companies. You're not a custom string builder, bro.

• 3:10:14Cameron Hanes?

  Just make me a good bow.

• 3:10:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:10:15Cameron Hanes?

  Just make, I'll figure out the rest.

• 3:10:16Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I will put the shoes on it that I want.

• 3:10:21Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I, it's a, it's a business. I want everybody making money. I want all the accessory companies to make money. I want the pro shops to kick ass. I love, I love how good the bow rack's doing. Yeah, I just love this industry. It's just been, obviously it's changed our lives for sure.

• 3:10:36Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 3:10:37Cameron Hanes?

  And it's been, what a, what a journey. But, uh, yeah, I, this has been fun, but I know we have some more retarded questions from Gideon.

• 3:10:48Speaker 01

  Uh oh.

• 3:10:49Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, let's go, Gideon.

• 3:10:50Speaker 01

  Gideon, you're up.

• 3:10:52Speaker 02

  Okay, we promised you a Mary kill and with the, uh, with the kind of way this podcast went, I think this will be a good one. I changed it a little bit. So you've played Mary kill before, right?

• 3:11:06Speaker 01

  Do you know how it works? I, uh, my, my guy August Peters introduced me to would you.

• 3:11:12Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 3:11:12Speaker 01

  Same idea.

• 3:11:14Cameron Hanes?

  It's like.

• 3:11:14Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I get it. Yeah, okay.

• 3:11:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:11:16Speaker 02

  Okay. So I decided to choose all the things that you guys kind of decided weren't good.

• 3:11:24Speaker 01

  Uh oh.

• 3:11:25Speaker 02

  Mary kill, fast bow speed, light arrow weight and short brace height.

• 3:11:31Cameron Hanes?

  Kill. No, you have to like, so, so, so listen. Is like good for one time. Mary, you're gonna have that for as long as you bow hunt.

• 3:11:43Speaker 01

  Ah, okay.

• 3:11:44Cameron Hanes?

  And kill, you never want to fuck with again. So of those three, what, what, which of them are you gonna like deal with forever? So it's either short brace height, a light arrow, or what was the other one?

• 3:11:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, so fast bow seed, bow speed, light arrow weight, short brace.

• 3:12:01Cameron Hanes?

  I know, I know what I'd answer out of those, but go ahead.

• 3:12:04Speaker 01

  Well, if I had to, if I have to marry one, I will marry the arrow weight.

• 3:12:13Cameron Hanes?

  Oh yeah, cuz you didn't say whether, did you say it was light?

• 3:12:15Speaker 02

  I said light arrow weight.

• 3:12:16Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, it has to be light.

• 3:12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll marry the light arrow weight cuz I can adjust my poundage and cheat.

• 3:12:21Cameron Hanes?

  Well, I was gonna say if you did, what was the other one, speed?

• 3:12:26Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:12:26Cameron Hanes?

  Speed, you could do the same.

• 3:12:28Speaker 01

  Correct, you can cheat on that, but yeah, so like I could technically shoot 345 feet per second at will.

• 3:12:34Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:12:35Speaker 01

  I ain't gonna, no way.

• 3:12:36Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, so go ahead.

• 3:12:37Speaker 01

  If I did, uh, I would it. It'd be a one time thing and done. Uh, the short brace height at my draw length.

• 3:12:45Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, kill.

• 3:12:47Speaker 01

  Kill.

• 3:12:47Cameron Hanes?

  No. And then so you'd marry?

• 3:12:49Speaker 01

  I'd marry the lighter arrow.

• 3:12:51Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:12:51Speaker 01

  I'd, I'd, I'd the speed.

• 3:12:53Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:12:54Speaker 01

  And I would kill the short brace height cuz at 32 inches of draw length, bro.

• 3:12:59Cameron Hanes?

  So you don't, what about PSC Sicario?

• 3:13:02Speaker 01

  They don't go in my draw length, so I'm good.

• 3:13:03Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 3:13:05Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's, it's like going out and picking up a heft of lump so I can slop bust. I don't need to.

• 3:13:11Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, we don't need to shoot a two inch brace height.

• 3:13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't, doesn't go to 32 inches. So guess what? I'm out.

• 3:13:18Cameron Hanes?

  It doesn't, mine is 22 inches, so it probably doesn't go to 22 either.

• 3:13:22Speaker 01

  Right?

• 3:13:24Cameron Hanes?

  Okay, what else you got?

• 3:13:25Speaker 02

  Okay, um, you guys talked about a lot of people that are coming up and you also mentioned some past archers, but how important do you think that it is for those new archers to absorb the stories and the history from the pioneers that came before them?

• 3:13:40Speaker 01

  How important is it?

• 3:13:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:13:43Speaker 01

  Is this a free kill thing?

• 3:13:44Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 3:13:44Speaker 01

  No, no, cuz I'm marrying that.

• 3:13:46Cameron Hanes?

  This is, this is just, just in general, how important is it?

• 3:13:50Speaker 01

  Oh, anyone that doesn't learn from history is doomed to repeat it. And I think it's, I think it's incredibly important. I think archery as a whole absolutely sucks donkey balls on appreciating our history. Um, that me and you and people like us, we get it.

• 3:14:06Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:14:07Speaker 01

  But I think that on the, on the whole, we do a terrible job with recognizing our history. So for anyone that's up and coming, learn. You know, everyone says, oh, wise means I I learned from my mistakes. How about you learn from other people's mistakes?

• 3:14:24Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:14:25Speaker 01

  So that is that is either one A or one B.

• 3:14:30Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, no, I I like that. I I get inspired, you know, we can learn, but also like, I just love to celebrate the pioneers. Like, I'd love to have Chuck Adams on here.

• 3:14:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:14:43Cameron Hanes?

  You know, I mean, Chuck Adams, a lot of it, and it drives me crazy that there's a lot of new bow hunters who don't even know who he is.

• 3:14:50Speaker 01

  At all.

• 3:14:50Cameron Hanes?

  And that's, you know, that shouldn't be allowed, basically. But I've also heard of like NBA guys or NFL, young guys don't know who the greats of.

• 3:15:00Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 3:15:01Cameron Hanes?

  And that, so I think it's just part of, it's just how the world works. But I wish we were better. I mean, as I said, hunters are known for respect and honor and things like that. Part of that, to me, means also respecting and honoring those who came before us.

• 3:15:15Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 3:15:16Cameron Hanes?

  And learning, and you said, learning from it, but even just, just, um, just acknowledging.

• 3:15:23Speaker 01

  Reverence.

• 3:15:23Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, reverence, reverence, like, you know, M R. James, he wrote that book, Forty Five Unforgettable Bow Hunters, Chuck Adams Life at Full Draw. I have all of them. And I just like am so immersed in in that and have been forever. But I wish, yeah, I I think that's a good question, but I I wish the young guys just embrace that more.

• 3:15:45Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Well, I mean, and so much has changed that understanding not just what they accomplished and how they paved the way for all of us to get here, but what they had to deal with and the equipment they had to deal with.

• 3:16:00Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, man.

• 3:16:01Speaker 01

  Like, they accomplished that without social media.

• 3:16:04Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:16:05Speaker 01

  Chuck Adams accomplished that without the internet.

• 3:16:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, nuts.

• 3:16:09Speaker 01

  Like, it's, you know, Randy Ulmers and all, it's like, not only do they not understand what they did, they don't understand the framework and the context in which they had to do it.

• 3:16:22Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, I know Chuck shot fingers forever.

• 3:16:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:16:26Cameron Hanes?

  Heavy, like an arrow like this. What is this one?

• 3:16:33Cameron Hanes?

  Twenty-three fourteen.

• 3:16:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:16:34Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, this is kinda, this is exactly, well, I didn't shoot feathers, but this is about what I shot, something like this. And this is so light. What is this? A Thunderhead one twenty-five here?

• 3:16:46Speaker 01

  Yep, absolutely.

• 3:16:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, and but this arrow is so, I mean, I don't know.

• 3:16:52Speaker 01

  But but the bows back then were.

• 3:16:54Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, two hundred and twenty feet a second.

• 3:16:57Speaker 01

  Right, they're all two thirty.

• 3:16:58Cameron Hanes?

  Little wheels on the top of. Yeah, just like that PSE one that I had here. But yeah, they just didn't perform like they do now, but to kill, that's wasn't easy.

• 3:17:08Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 3:17:09Cameron Hanes?

  Wasn't easy. This is from my buddy Mark Smith.

• 3:17:11Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 3:17:11Cameron Hanes?

  Says he, I think he killed a, what does it say? A mule deer?

• 3:17:15Speaker 01

  Mark killed some hammers.

• 3:17:17Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, nine sixteen nineteen ninety-five.

• 3:17:19Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 3:17:20Cameron Hanes?

  Apparently this killed a mule deer.

• 3:17:21Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 3:17:22Cameron Hanes?

  So that's pretty cool. But yeah, what else you got?

• 3:17:25Speaker 02

  All right, this is my last question. I don't know, for for those of you that are listening, you won't get this, but even watching, you are a mountain of a human being.

• 3:17:36Cameron Hanes?

  Who, me?

• 3:17:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:17:37Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, thank you.

• 3:17:38Speaker 02

  I think you broke my hand when I shook it. And now I'm gonna have to beat off with my left. But I'm just curious, as somebody who, you know, obviously does some backcountry hunts, what is your, what is your like calorie count look like using dehydrated meals, snacks when going into the backcountry?

• 3:17:56Speaker 01

  Well, in in all transparency, the most backcountry I've ever did was hunting moose with my buddy Dave up in Alaska.

• 3:18:02Cameron Hanes?

  Okay.

• 3:18:04Speaker 01

  And all I will say there is, we were going, we came prepared. So I got there. And it was like, cold, slating, but we had to drive all the way up to the slope, all the way up to Coldfoot, long way. Well, in the time that, so when I arrived, the weather was, and he's like, bro, we're gonna crush. So I get there and it's like, all of a sudden, the next day is like forty-eight. We're like, eh, it should be okay. Bro, it was in the sixties.

• 3:18:33Cameron Hanes?

  Ooh.

• 3:18:34Speaker 01

  So we went up there prepared to like pack in.

• 3:18:38Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:18:38Speaker 01

  And we get up there and he's like, that ain't gonna work.

• 3:18:41Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:18:42Speaker 01

  Cause that ain't gonna work. You know how it is in Alaska, like the, the, you know, when out of Coldfoot, the freaking fishing game guy's there with his plane. And like, if you literally kill something too far in, they will literally ticket you because they're like, you can't get the meat out.

• 3:18:56Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:18:57Speaker 01

  So we didn't get, end up doing that. So I will just say that I was glad that his truck was close to camp because my miles per gallon absolutely sucks.

• 3:19:07Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:19:08Speaker 01

  But a tundra rabbit mixed with a mountain house equals plenty of toilet paper.

• 3:19:21Cameron Hanes?

  And that can get you by for a little while, I guess.

• 3:19:23Speaker 01

  I was smashing multiples at a time.

• 3:19:26Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:19:26Speaker 01

  Several, you know, but, but it's like, like right now I'll do intermittent, intermittent fasting regularly. So like right now I'm two eighty-five, two ninety, right around there, you know? And so, but when I went up to hunt in Alaska, I'm like, I don't need to, no, no, no, no. So I cut down to like two sixty-five.

• 3:19:48Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, little guy.

• 3:19:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, midget. And so I was like, I don't need to be two ninety walking around the tundra because for anyone that's walked around the tundra, trying to step on those.

• 3:19:57Cameron Hanes?

  It's hard work.

• 3:19:58Speaker 01

  Hairy basketballs that are, that, that move.

• 3:20:01Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:20:02Speaker 01

  It's, I'll call them what they call them up there, but.

• 3:20:06Cameron Hanes?

  It's inappropriate.

• 3:20:07Speaker 01

  It, oh, so you know.

• 3:20:08Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so.

• 3:20:10Cameron Hanes?

  And James loves hairy balls.

• 3:20:12Speaker 01

  Correct. They're big. They're giants.

• 3:20:14Cameron Hanes?

  He loves big hairy balls.

• 3:20:15Speaker 01

  They're, they're.

• 3:20:16Cameron Hanes?

  On his face.

• 3:20:17Speaker 01

  They're substantial and they, and, and they move like normal. And so, uh, no, so as far as, uh, food like that goes, it's, it's a lot. Um, but.

• 3:20:27Cameron Hanes?

  Are they called ninja heads?

• 3:20:30Speaker 01

  Yes, they are. They are called that, actually. That was, you are right on the money.

• 3:20:37Cameron Hanes?

  That is inappropriate.

• 3:20:38Speaker 01

  We are taking it back in two thousand twenty-six, but you gotta use it in the right context. And, uh, yeah, but yes, so my food consumption, I mean, like my food consumption on a regular day, five thousand calories is simple.

• 3:20:53Cameron Hanes?

  Whoa. That's why you're starving right now then.

• 3:20:56Speaker 01

  Oh no, I ate before this started.

• 3:20:58Cameron Hanes?

  Did you?

• 3:20:58Speaker 01

  And I'll be, is there an in and out over here?

• 3:21:00Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 3:21:01Speaker 01

  Damn it.

• 3:21:01Cameron Hanes?

  I know.

• 3:21:02Speaker 01

  I might drive straight down the five to Medford because my normal.

• 3:21:06Cameron Hanes?

  Is Grant's Pass?

• 3:21:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:21:08Cameron Hanes?

  Is, oh, then you can cut over.

• 3:21:10Speaker 01

  Yes. So my normal at In-N-Out is three, three by threes.

• 3:21:14Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:21:15Speaker 01

  Fries and a drink. That's my norm.

• 3:21:17Cameron Hanes?

  So he beats you.

• 3:21:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, we just talked about our In-N-Out orders.

• 3:21:21Cameron Hanes?

  We did.

• 3:21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, three, three by threes, spread only fries and a drink.

• 3:21:25Cameron Hanes?

  Is three by threes, three patties?

• 3:21:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:21:27Cameron Hanes?

  On each one?

• 3:21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:21:28Cameron Hanes?

  So you have nine patties?

• 3:21:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But the trick is you gotta.

• 3:21:32Cameron Hanes?

  Talk about shitty.

• 3:21:33Speaker 01

  But no, it's good, man. So, but the, but the trick is, is you gotta open up the burger and you put the fries in the burger. And then you put the burger back together and you eat it with the fries in the middle.

• 3:21:44Cameron Hanes?

  I think we need to go to Grant's Pass right now.

• 3:21:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. So, and that, that's if, like, if I go after I worked out.

• 3:21:52Cameron Hanes?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:21:52Speaker 01

  The three, three by threes is a start. But yeah, my, my miles per gallon sucks. So, but not to your level because I'm not that good. But when I know I'm going to be going on a hunt or something like that, I will weeks and weeks ahead of time start preparing. Because I can't bring 5,000 calories a day.

• 3:22:12Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, that's tough.

• 3:22:13Speaker 01

  Hunting.

• 3:22:14Cameron Hanes?

  That's tough.

• 3:22:14Speaker 01

  You just can't.

• 3:22:15Cameron Hanes?

  No.

• 3:22:15Speaker 01

  So I'll do intermittent fasting and I'll do other stuff and cut down in weight to, you know, do that.

• 3:22:22Cameron Hanes?

  Remember this, like, remember how, you, you see that rubber right there?

• 3:22:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:22:28Cameron Hanes?

  Like, the more you tighten it up, the more it sticks out.

• 3:22:31Speaker 01

  It's squish, it used to squish out.

• 3:22:33Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I took those. Back then I took those out.

• 3:22:37Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:22:37Speaker 01

  And then I would heat up the insert and just spin it.

• 3:22:40Cameron Hanes?

  So that's just to line up with the vein, right?

• 3:22:43Speaker 01

  Well.

• 3:22:43Cameron Hanes?

  Is that what they're doing?

• 3:22:44Speaker 01

  That's what.

• 3:22:44Cameron Hanes?

  Oh, no, it was.

• 3:22:45Speaker 01

  That's what it was for. So you could line up with those. But for me, I just used it to make sure it spun true because back then shit didn't spin super straight.

• 3:22:54Cameron Hanes?

  And back then also, if this blade on the inside was straight to the riser, you probably pull that arrow off if you had an overdraw.

• 3:23:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:23:03Cameron Hanes?

  Remember that? Because it's like, we didn't have the, it seems like you didn't have the clearance.

• 3:23:06Speaker 01

  No, no, absolutely not. Well, like, my first bow was given to me by a hunting buddy named George Rhienus over in Clamath Falls, and it was a 145 pound Oregon wind walker.

• 3:23:18Speaker 01

  With 24 19s that I shot with fingers.

• 3:23:22Cameron Hanes?

  God.

• 3:23:23Speaker 01

  That was 1999.

• 3:23:25Cameron Hanes?

  What was the axle axle on that bitch?

• 3:23:26Speaker 01

  Seventy eight.

• 3:23:28Cameron Hanes?

  I mean, fingers with that thing?

• 3:23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it was forty.

• 3:23:32Cameron Hanes?

  Pulling a hundred and forty five pounds with fingers, dude?

• 3:23:34Speaker 01

  It's my first bow. I didn't know any different.

• 3:23:37Cameron Hanes?

  Well, that's unethical. You don't need to shoot. I get criticized for what I shoot, let alone what if people knew that?

• 3:23:44Speaker 01

  Dude, with those Cabela's broadheads that cost like seven cents each.

• 3:23:48Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah.

• 3:23:48Speaker 01

  They cork.

• 3:23:49Cameron Hanes?

  Made out of tinfoil.

• 3:23:50Speaker 01

  They corkscrewed the whole way down there and I had no idea what I was doing, but I ended up, I shot a mule deer frontal right through the throat at like forty two.

• 3:24:00Cameron Hanes?

  What was good about having that shitty aero flight is it would kind of gut the animal as it went through.

• 3:24:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:24:06Cameron Hanes?

  And then you walk up to it, the guts are out, you just drag it out.

• 3:24:09Speaker 01

  It was better than any single bevel ever created.

• 3:24:14Cameron Hanes?

  Well, yeah, Greg, it's been, it's been awesome talking, bowling and archery with you.

• 3:24:19Speaker 01

  I appreciate it.

• 3:24:20Cameron Hanes?

  It's a, it's, I've been wanting to get you here for a long time. I love you when you're on podcasts. I love all your insights and perspective and thoughts and opinions. So thank you so much for sharing so much of it with me today.

• 3:24:33Speaker 01

  I appreciate you having me, man. It's been a long time coming and you keep on like you are, brother.

• 3:24:39Cameron Hanes?

  Yeah, we're a bunch of old guys still trying to do it.

• 3:24:41Speaker 01

  Well, it's like I say anytime, you know, and I'm not a small person. People be like, God damn, I'm like, look, I'm just an old dude trying not to go down without a fight.

• 3:24:50Cameron Hanes?

  That's it. Well, you're, you're kicking ass. I love to see you being successful and love what you offer this world. Thank you.

• 3:24:55Speaker 01

  Appreciate it, buddy. Thank you.

• 3:24:56Cameron Hanes?

  Thank you.