Selects: How Itching Works

It was only in the last few decades that science became aware that itches aren't just low-level pain. And in that time, the mystery of how we itch and why we scratch has gotten even more baffling. Explore the mystery with Josh and Chuck in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:02Speaker 02

  Hi, everybody. Chuck here. It's May 9th, 2017 and podcast time. I know it's really 2025, but we're going all the way back to May of 2017 to talk about itching. Oh, boy, just seeing that title probably makes you itch. And that's one of the deals with itching, if I remember correctly. So I hope you dig it and I hope you're not too itchy right now.

• 1:28Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:38Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant and there's Jerry Roland. So this is Stuff You Should Know, scratching edition.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is one of many.

• 1:50Josh Clark?

  You remember when we did yawning?

• 1:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55Josh Clark?

  Well, that's the only one I can think of. Where just researching something makes you do the thing you're researching? This definitely happened with this one.

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, we ran across that in poison ivy and scabies, for sure.

• 2:07Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  And talked about some of this stuff, but I think itch. We had an itch we needed to scratch.

• 2:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  With this particular topic.

• 2:15Josh Clark?

  Well, I'm glad. I've been wanting to do this one for a while.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, you did a video about this, right?

• 2:20Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  A short video?

• 2:23Josh Clark?

  No, it was three, four hours long.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  If I remember correctly.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Does that mean we have to do this? Do I have to be here for the next four hours?

• 2:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we have to just play the whole thing and then we'll talk about it for an hour after.

• 2:35Speaker 02

  That sounds good.

• 2:35Josh Clark?

  Okay. I think it was a brain stuff video, wasn't it?

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I watched it.

• 2:39Josh Clark?

  Did it scratch your itch?

• 2:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I watched it yesterday.

• 2:42Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Nice work.

• 2:44Josh Clark?

  Thank you very much.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  You're just like-

• 2:45Josh Clark?

  Now we finally arrived at what I was after.

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Compliment?

• 2:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  No, it was great.

• 2:51Josh Clark?

  Thanks, man. So I guess the point of all that is to say you guys are going-

• 2:57Speaker 02

  That you do great.

• 2:58Josh Clark?

  My videos are the best. That you're going to scratch. You're gonna feel an itch, which is one of the great mysteries of itches. It turns out, we only very, very recently have started to get a handle on what itches are.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15Josh Clark?

  And there's still plenty of mysteries left to it. Like, for example, it's bizarre and there's really no evolutionary reason, as far as anyone can tell, of why just hearing about itches or seeing someone else scratch can make you itch.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:31Josh Clark?

  That's odd. That's weird.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  Or seeing a video of an ant crawling up an arm will make you itch.

• 3:37Josh Clark?

  It will. But I mean, think about it, if somebody is sitting there, you see a video of some schmo who's got his hand like near an oven and he pulls it away really quick. Doesn't hurt your hand. It doesn't make you feel like

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Burning.

• 3:50Josh Clark?

  Your hand is burned.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 3:52Josh Clark?

  This doesn't happen.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  I don't even think that would excite mirror neurons like a leg break would.

• 3:55Josh Clark?

  No, you're just like, what a stupid idiot. That's what it excites, you know? I hope that guy's hand just burns clean off. That's what I think, right?

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  You sourced a couple of, well, we had our own article on HowStuffWorks.com.

• 4:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  But you also sent this great New Yorker article, um, written by Dr. Atul Gawande.

• 4:17Josh Clark?

  One of the best names in writing today.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, that may be my new hotel name.

• 4:23Josh Clark?

  Well, you may be thronged by science

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:26Josh Clark?

  Science fans, because that guy's pretty, pretty well-known.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  Actually, I don't, I've never used to alias at a hotel. That's dumb. And I don't even know if you can, can you? I guess if you're a big shot, you can.

• 4:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but you have to be like, I'm not Brad Pitt, I'm Atul Gawande.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  Right. Uh, but the, we'll get to some of the, uh, more interesting aspects of that article later. Specifically, a very specific patient that's quite distressing.

• 4:53Josh Clark?

  So calm down for now, Atul's mom.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  But, um,

• 4:56Josh Clark?

  We'll get to it eventually.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  He did include a couple of neat historical tidbits, uh, like in 1660, there was, and Germans are all over this thing for some reason.

• 5:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  You know, researchers, they're, they're all German.

• 5:10Josh Clark?

  They had the itch to explain the itch.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  I guess so.

• 5:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  The itch.

• 5:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Uh, but there was a physician in 1660 named Samuel Hoffenreffer. Actually, that's my new hotel name.

• 5:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  That's a good one. Uh, he kinda, well, he defined it, um, by saying, an itch is an unpleasant sensation that provokes the desire to scratch. Pretty simple.

• 5:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  But right on the money.

• 5:37Josh Clark?

  It is, and actually, it's so, it's so on the money that anywhere you look in the medical literature, whenever they define itch, word for word, that's the, the definition they use.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  The Hoffenreffer?

• 5:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, although poor Hoffenreffer doesn't get credit for it all the time, but that's the one. The only expansion of that that I've seen is that can occur anywhere on the body, which apparently is true.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  I think Hoffenreffer. He felt that was implied.

• 6:02Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  You know?

• 6:03Josh Clark?

  He's like, it goes without saying.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, and then-

• 6:07Josh Clark?

  I'm scratching right now, by the way, yeah.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know if I just noticed more.

• 6:13Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Cause as I was doing it, I was thinking, well, now I'm scratching. Then I thought, do I always scratch this much or itch this much?

• 6:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, I hadn't thought about that. I'm pretty sure that I was, I don't think I scratched as much as, I don't know. You raise a really good question.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Maybe we can get an intern to follow us around and just record our scratching.

• 6:32Josh Clark?

  Right. I'm surprised that that's not already a TV show, frankly.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Josh and Chuck scratch?

• 6:39Josh Clark?

  Just being followed around.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh.

• 6:42Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 6:43Speaker 02

  No one wants to see that.

• 6:45Josh Clark?

  Well, that's probably why it's not.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  You're scratching.

• 6:47Josh Clark?

  See, that's what I'm saying. I don't think I scratched this much.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Uh, I don't notice it.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  All right, moving on, um, to Dante's Inferno. Uh, it, it was in Dante's Inferno, the burning rage of fierce itching that nothing could relieve is how falsifiers were punished.

• 7:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, do you know what a falsifier is?

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Hmm, us?

• 7:11Josh Clark?

  I, no, really, like, isn't that, that's somebody who, like, bears false witness? Or somebody who falsifies a document or?

• 7:18Speaker 02

  I don't know, is it just a fancy name for liar?

• 7:20Josh Clark?

  Maybe.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  Oh, I thought you were gonna tell me. You were just wondering?

• 7:24Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  All right. Well, I don't know what Dante meant, but they're, they're bad people.

• 7:29Josh Clark?

  Sure, apparently. There's a special place in hell for him, literally. Well, I guess actually not literally.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Figuratively.

• 7:36Josh Clark?

  Sure. Literarily.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Oh, very nice. Uh, so itching scientifically is known as, uh, pruritus. P-R-U-R-I-T-I-S.

• 7:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  It's one of those tough to pronounce things, for me at least. Um, and for, well, actually, they still believe that the evolution of the itch was to help humans, um, survive, basically, because so many things that can kill you uh, in, in nature. Or things like mosquitoes or flies.

• 8:09Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Or spiders or fleas.

• 8:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  That can have like malaria or the plague or any number of diseases attached to their tiny little insect bodies.

• 8:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  So, hey, human, you've got a mosquito on your neck that could kill you, you might wanna slap it or scratch.

• 8:25Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that's still, as far as I know, the evolutionary hypothesis for why we experience itching.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:33Josh Clark?

  And it's not just us either.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Boy, you're scratching like crazy, Dell.

• 8:36Josh Clark?

  It's found throughout the animal kingdom, from us to apparently fish have shown scratching behavior.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 8:45Josh Clark?

  Fruit flies.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  How does a fish scratch, you might ask?

• 8:47Josh Clark?

  It rubs up against rocks.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's kinda cute.

• 8:50Josh Clark?

  It is a little cute.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  It's like, I remember my dad did like the, uh, who was the bear in Jungle Book? Was that Baloo?

• 8:58Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  He would do the Baloo where he would get up against a tree or a wall.

• 9:01Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  And then I did it, probably because of that, I'm sure that's where I got it, and realized that it works, and I still do it every now and then.

• 9:09Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it looked kinda silly, but.

• 9:12Josh Clark?

  Do you sing while you do it?

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, Bear Necessities?

• 9:15Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  That's still my favorite.

• 9:16Josh Clark?

  What else are you gonna sing? Like Mambo Number Five?

• 9:23Speaker 02

  I'm gonna start doing that, actually. You'd be like, think something's wrong with Chuck.

• 9:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  So like you said, though, it was up until, almost, what was it, 1987, the mid to late 80s?

• 9:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  That another German, H.O. Handwerker,

• 9:40Speaker 02

  uh, and his gang.

• 9:43Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 9:43Speaker 02

  Of Tufts, um, they started to do actual like, research about it. They were puzzled and wanted to solve it.

• 9:51Josh Clark?

  Right, because up to this point, up to, actually, 1987, everyone thought that an itch was just a low-grade pain stimulus.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess they were just happy with that.

• 10:03Josh Clark?

  That's just what they thought it was.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:05Josh Clark?

  And Handwerker said, you know what, let's, let's find out if this is actually true. I'm tired of sitting around just assuming this is fine. I'm a handwerker. And he got to work, er, with his hands, uh, testing this, right? So what he, I know, it was like Jonathan Strickland level ones, um, what he did was.

• 10:26Josh Clark?

  This is just awful.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:29Josh Clark?

  He introduced using like, um, electrical stimulation, I guess. He introduced histamine to skin cells, right? And histamine is a natural, I don't know if it's a protein, but it's, it's a natural

• 10:40Speaker 02

  It's a compound.

• 10:40Josh Clark?

  Natural chemical, right?

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:42Josh Clark?

  That the body releases, uh, in response to certain stimuli. Say, for example, like a mosquito bite or something. And it triggers the, um, inflammation and immune response in that area, right? So histamine is associated with itch and it had been for a very long time. So this guy was using electrical stimulation to introduce histamine in increasing amounts Yeah. In these poor study participants. And it went from barely noticeable to, this is a quote, "The maximum imaginable itch." And they never felt pain.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, like even though they ramped it up to 11, no one ever said like, "Holy crap, that hurts."

• 11:25Josh Clark?

  They said, "Please, please for the love of God, stop, let me out of this." And Hanverker just cackled and cackled.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 11:32Josh Clark?

  Right. And then these men with like black leather gloves were holding the participants down.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, they said, "This is not worth the five Deutschmarks that I'm getting for this lousy study."

• 11:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's nice, man. That's, this would have been pre-Euro, I think.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:46Josh Clark?

  Even though the EU was around, I don't think the Euro was around in 87, right?

• 11:50Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 11:50Josh Clark?

  It was the 90s?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  I traveled, uh, I traveled to Europe in 1997. And there was, I was still on all that weird money.

• 12:02Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it was a while after that. So now scientists, uh, I think this sort of, um, introduced an itch to the scientific community because after hundreds and hundreds of years, Hanverker sort of disrupted the, the thought process of the itch and the scratch.

• 12:23Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  And all of a sudden scientists were like, "Oh, well, maybe we should start looking into this. Maybe we can actually isolate the nerve and figure this thing out."

• 12:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because I mean, if it's not, if it's not just a low level pain sensation, then that means it's its own thing. And if it's its own thing, it probably has its own system and we need to know more about it. So they got to, they got to study in it.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, what made, I wonder if all of this was under the Notion that they were trying to cure itching.

• 12:53Josh Clark?

  I don't know, because from what I was reading, and all of this was pretty recent stuff.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:59Josh Clark?

  There is a real unmet medical need in dealing in addressing like chronic itch.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 13:06Josh Clark?

  Because, you know, most people who go through life just experiencing itch under normal circumstances, right?

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:11Josh Clark?

  Say you or me, we're like, an itch, yeah, they suck for a second and then it goes away.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:16Josh Clark?

  Imagine it not going away ever, whether you're asleep or awake.

• 13:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:20Josh Clark?

  Or swimming, or in outer space, or doing whatever.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:25Josh Clark?

  You're itching constantly. Supposedly, it has as much of a pronounced effect on a patient's life as chronic pain does. It's constant, persistent and agonizing. And it's not, it's not being met or treated because it's not understood. So they're just now starting to get into pain or itch research.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:47Josh Clark?

  I saw that somebody put it where pain research was about 20 years ago. So it's starting to really heat up, but we're still just starting to understand it. So I would think that they weren't looking to cure it. I think it was just pointed out that there was this whole branch of neuroscience that was

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 14:03Josh Clark?

  totally not understood. So get to work neurologists.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  I wonder, I never really thought about it until just now, but I wonder what happens when a performer or somebody like that is in the public eye, or on TV, or on stage, or like the president giving a address, like what, what, what do they do if they have poison ivy or some other kind of contact dermatitis? Like, have you ever thought about that? Like, what if Lin-Manuel Miranda

• 14:33Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  has like a really bad case of, I guess they can get an understudy in that case.

• 14:37Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  But you can't have an understudy as president.

• 14:41Josh Clark?

  No.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Which is too bad.

• 14:42Josh Clark?

  You just go out there with your hands bandaged up, just holding them up.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Like, how do you fight that?

• 14:47Josh Clark?

  Poison ivy.

• 14:47Speaker 02

  On camera, or like a news anchor when they're just like, oh my God, I'm dying.

• 14:52Josh Clark?

  I don't know.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  I guess a news anchor can tape things, but I'm talking about live. What does Tom Petty do? For god's sakes.

• 15:00Josh Clark?

  Tom Petty grins and bears it. He had a hard Scrabble childhood.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  He sure did.

• 15:05Josh Clark?

  Prepared him for that.

• 15:06Speaker 02

  I'm going to see him tomorrow night.

• 15:07Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. Nice. Tom, I said.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  We're meeting for coffee. He's not performing.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Anyway, I was just curious about that.

• 15:16Josh Clark?

  Well, it's a good question.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 15:18Josh Clark?

  Do you remember when Costas had red eye at the Olympics? And he was so dedicated to to being the commentator, the anchor for the Olympics, they finally were like, you have to stop. And no one can look at you anymore.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  People writing in, you're disgusting them.

• 15:31Josh Clark?

  It was gross.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Uh, one thing that made me think of that is I had recently, you can still kind of see it on my forearm, the scars. But I did a cement job, was building this fence, putting in a gate at my house. And Scotty, you know Scotty.

• 15:48Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  He and I built, huh?

• 15:49Josh Clark?

  Pippin.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  Not Scotty Pippin. Uh, he and I built this, uh, thing together and we sank these huge posts for this gate. And I didn't know that cement, uh, could cause contact dermatitis or even burns. Never knew this.

• 16:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  And we were, it was kind of a tight spot and we couldn't get shovels in there in the hole. So we were literally mixing this stuff like up to our elbows with our arms. And I was like, this kind of feels good, I even said, like, you know, like oatmeal or something. And then two days later, my right arm was just covered in the nastiest dermatitis I've ever seen.

• 16:26Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  And then he got it. Yeah, it's still like kind of hanging around. So I went and got, um, a prescription for steroids, which made me a little crazy for a week and a half.

• 16:36Josh Clark?

  Okay. Did you trash the gate and have to start over?

• 16:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 16:41Josh Clark?

  In the steroid rage?

• 16:41Speaker 02

  I think I was probably not the best husband though.

• 16:43Josh Clark?

  I see.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Over that time period.

• 16:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Um, judging from Emily saying, hey, you're a real a-hole. Get off the steroids.

• 16:51Josh Clark?

  Gotcha. Get off the juice.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  And I was like, shut up!

• 16:55Josh Clark?

  Watch this, watch me hit this homer.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  So, long story short, I experienced this recently and it was awful. And I can't imagine like shooting a TV show or something, or like doing anything or performing live.

• 17:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Like, I would have to address it. Because I would scratch and smack it was what I usually do.

• 17:14Josh Clark?

  That's what you're supposed to do, not scratch.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Smack it?

• 17:17Josh Clark?

  We'll just cut to the chase here, this is why everyone's listening. How do you scratch an itch correctly? You rub it.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't do, I did, you know what really did it was the, uh, we have a handheld implement in the shower, along with a regular shower head.

• 17:34Josh Clark?

  Okay, yeah.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  And put that sucker on the tightest, hardest, most penetrating flow.

• 17:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  And just put that hot water on it, man. And that was like, I think I spent half my days in the shower.

• 17:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Over that week and a half.

• 17:47Josh Clark?

  Were you biting down like a broomstick while you were doing that?

• 17:50Speaker 02

  No, it felt so good, man. I was just like, I couldn't get enough of it.

• 17:53Josh Clark?

  Huh.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  And then the cortisone and all that junk, too.

• 17:57Josh Clark?

  So, well, we'll actually-

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Benadryl.

• 17:59Josh Clark?

  We'll, we'll talk about this, because you're raising some great points here.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Well, I just kind of, did I ruin the spoiler?

• 18:05Josh Clark?

  No, no, this is good stuff. We're going to analyze what was going on with your arm after this break. How about that?

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Sounds good.

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• 18:39Josh Clark?

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• 20:14Josh Clark?

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• 20:27Speaker 02

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• 20:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, it's built with a durable aluminum chassis, weighing just 2.2 pounds, and Intel Core processors, so it's fast, reliable, and portable enough to keep up wherever you go. And while shopping, you'll also find great perks like Dell Rewards, fast free shipping, premium support, and financing with flexible payment options. Plus, you can find great deals on monitors and accessories. That means you can score a whole new setup now for less. Visit dell.com to explore the possibilities with XPS.

• 21:10Speaker 02

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• 21:30Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, you had contact dermatitis, right?

• 21:33Speaker 02

  I thought it was poison ivy because that area has some poison ivy.

• 21:35Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  But each of us, Scotty and I, had it just on the arm.

• 21:40Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  That we sunk in cement.

• 21:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  And then we researched and found out that could happen.

• 21:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so lesson learned on that.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:48Josh Clark?

  So what happened was you, like something in the cement, and I'm not sure what it was, reacted chemically with the mast cells in your skin.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:59Josh Clark?

  And histamine was released, right?

• 22:01Speaker 02

  Apparently.

• 22:02Josh Clark?

  And so the histamine sent a signal through specialized nerve cells called C fibers.

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, which C fibers aren't just limited to itching. I think only about 5% handle that.

• 22:16Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  And most of the rest are for pain.

• 22:18Josh Clark?

  Right, right. So they use the same type of neural pathway as pain, but for itch, it's, it's, basically, it's just like, no, these, these are just for itches only.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:30Josh Clark?

  And it sent a signal through your spinal column. And in your spinal column, it released a neurotransmitter called gastrin-releasing peptide receptor. And so at the skin, the histamine would have released a neurotransmitter called, what?

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Natriuretic polypeptide B.

• 22:50Josh Clark?

  Okay, so that says itch signal coming your way along those C fibers.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:55Josh Clark?

  Okay, it makes it to the spinal column. And I guess in about 2007, they found that there's another neurotransmitter in the spine that I guess accepts the, the NPPB.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  The invitation.

• 23:09Josh Clark?

  And says, I'm going to transfer this along up to the brain. That's gastrin-releasing peptide receptor. That shoots up to the brain, and it starts this cascade of activity, right?

• 23:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:19Josh Clark?

  Because when they, like after Hanover said, hey, you know, itching's its own thing.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 23:24Josh Clark?

  These other researchers went to town and Traced and figured out that there were specific, um, specific types of itch receptors that were dedicated just to itches, right?

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, more Germans.

• 23:37Josh Clark?

  More Germans.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  And Swedes in this case.

• 23:39Josh Clark?

  Couple of Swedes, but mostly Germans.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Just for good measure.

• 23:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:42Josh Clark?

  And what they found eventually from tracing this pathway, they were able to follow it into the wonder machine. And apparently they made some people itch and would not let them scratch it. And then they had them lay down in an MRI and they, they took a brain scan and they found that there's this whole galaxy of stuff going on in your brain that combined is the itch sensation.

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was pretty interesting, too. There's, there's a signature pattern in the brain when you get an itch and a few specific areas light up. One is a cortex and it all makes sense when you put it together.

• 24:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Uh, the cortex, uh, in this case, just sort of geolocates where on your body you're getting that sensation.

• 24:26Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  So that helps.

• 24:27Josh Clark?

  It's like, uh, left elbow.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, or in my case, from right elbow to wrist.

• 24:33Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  And then a little bit in other places, but not too bad.

• 24:37Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  That, that was the main area.

• 24:39Josh Clark?

  Is this your cortex still saying this?

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Very complex conversation going on. Uh, and then the region, I thought this is interesting, the region that governments, uh, governments that governs emotional response.

• 24:52Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Um, so basically this is your brain saying like, I don't like this. This makes me feel bad.

• 24:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's the worst thing ever, do something.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  Uh, and then finally the limbic and motor areas, and I thought this was the most interesting. Um, those areas process irresistible urges, the same ones that say, I want to smoke crack or I want to eat too much cake.

• 25:12Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Says you have an itch that is unbearable and you need to scratch it.

• 25:16Josh Clark?

  Right. And maybe go smoke some crack and eat some cake while you're at it.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Cause that'll help.

• 25:21Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  So I just, I don't know, I thought that was all very super interesting when you combine that pattern.

• 25:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's the, that's an itch and then, then followed by the irresistible urge to scratch it, which apparently research has shown those two do not happen independently. They're, they're part of a cycle.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:39Josh Clark?

  There's something called the itch scratch cycle, right? And so you have an irresistible urge to scratch the itch. It's, it's weird if you think about it, like. On the one hand, it makes sense where you you sense that there's a really hot heat source that your hand is really close to.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 25:59Josh Clark?

  So you have an irresistible urge to pull it back, but it doesn't feel like an urge. It almost feels like an involuntary reflex.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's that quick.

• 26:07Josh Clark?

  A scratch is almost like, I'm gonna kill this itch. I can't wait to scratch it. Like, you're almost exacting revenge on the itch for itching you, right? So a scratch is, it's an irresistible urge, whereas like pulling your hand back from a a hot, a hot source or something is like an involuntary reflex. It just feels different, like a a scratch is its own thing.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Well, it is, you know, they kind of found that out. And and Gawande, Dr. Gawande, um, pointed out something interesting, too, that I never thought about is that you can have, like, that short collar rubs against your neck all day.

• 26:43Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  And you might never notice it, but if there's like one little string that's just poking one little area, that might trigger an itch.

• 26:50Josh Clark?

  Right, and so you would think that, you know, itch receptors are super finely tuned and they they cover just this one tiny, like.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  That's what it would seem like.

• 26:58Josh Clark?

  Micron of skin. As a matter of fact, no. Apparently, an itch receptor can sense itch stimuli like three inches away from it on the skin.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 27:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So they're really sensitive.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, whereas pain receptors are that specific.

• 27:14Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Uh, down to like, you know, millimeters.

• 27:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  Um, and the other thing they found out, too, is that not only can they sense it from a few inches away, but it's a very slow acting thing.

• 27:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Which, um, as opposed to like heat on the hand.

• 27:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Like a candle on your hand. Almost said candle in the wind. Uh, that's super fast, but, um, that that explains why an itch, like, is kind of slow to come and then slow to resolve by scratching.

• 27:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  It's not like you scratch it and you're like, oh, it's all better now.

• 27:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  It helps a little bit.

• 27:46Josh Clark?

  So so the itching is a, it's a good strategy if you think about, um, say you're you're, there's a mosquito on you and that's what's making you itch. When you go to scratch it, you're getting rid of the mosquito, maybe even smushed it or something like that. The the problem's taken care of. The issue is that that itch scratch cycle eventually becomes a vicious cycle. Because when you scratch, this is what they think is going on. This is another mystery with itches. We don't understand how scratching alleviates an itch.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:19Josh Clark?

  Or why we scratch, really, right? What they think, the current hypothesis, is that when you scratch an itch, you're stimulating other receptors in the area that aren't itch receptors.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I got that, but what does that do? Just sort of like say, hey, body, don't worry about that for a minute.

• 28:39Josh Clark?

  I think so.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  A pain receptor is now active.

• 28:41Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. It's sending feedback to the brain saying, it's being taken care of. You can settle down with the itch.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Gotcha.

• 28:48Josh Clark?

  Right? I think. The problem is that neurologically or neurochemically, when you scratch an itch, you're activating those pain receptors in the area, pain pressure, that kind of thing. You're causing serotonin to be released.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:03Josh Clark?

  Natural pain reliever, right?

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:05Josh Clark?

  Or at least mood enhancer. And what they found is that serotonin, among other neurochemicals, actually exacerbates the itch sensation. So your itch not only comes back, it gets worse.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 29:17Josh Clark?

  So you go to scratch it again, and then same thing happens over and over again. That's the itch scratch cycle, which is not the best cycle around.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  No.

• 29:26Josh Clark?

  You can think of better cycles.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Not a bad band name.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:31Josh Clark?

  It's okay.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  A little too cute.

• 29:33Josh Clark?

  Maybe Prague? Folk Prague?

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Well, they'd have to be German, probably.

• 29:38Josh Clark?

  German Folk Prague, okay.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Another interesting thing they learned, too, was that, um, I guess we're kind of jumping around, but who cares, right? If you scratch, you don't have to scratch the point of the itch to relieve it, apparently.

• 29:55Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  Like, if you have, I had that itch on my right forearm, and I could scratch maybe, it doesn't have to be the left forearm, so it's not like you have to mirror it. But I could scratch like my neck, and apparently that might help relieve it?

• 30:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I tried it, it didn't work for me.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  No?

• 30:11Josh Clark?

  No. But I think the reason why there's, that's, it's possible that it could have that effect is supposedly scratching also, um...

• 30:22Josh Clark?

  Activates like your pleasure center?

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you bet it does.

• 30:26Josh Clark?

  But there's different, different places where you're scratching on your body have different amounts of pleasure associated with them. Did you know that? I mean, I guess, I guess so, but.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, interesting.

• 30:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but I mean, think about it. It's like if you scratch your, scratch your, like your clavicle. Who cares? It's nothing, right? But then you scratch like your head, right? Above and behind your ear. It's great.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  Well, and they, I think they did find that like, uh, your back and your ankles supposedly are some of the most rewarding places to scratch.

• 30:58Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  And I, I don't know, I've never really thought about that ankles, but, um,

• 31:05Speaker 02

  my mom would give me back scratches when I was a kid.

• 31:08Josh Clark?

  That's nice.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  And it was always like one of my favorite things ever.

• 31:13Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  And so I don't get those anymore now that I'm a grown up, cause that's gross.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Mom, scratch my back.

• 31:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  I'm 46 years old.

• 31:23Josh Clark?

  Lay down.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  But yeah, it was like, I, I think I prefer to back scratch to a back rub even.

• 31:30Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  When I was younger, but now, you know, a massage is probably way better.

• 31:34Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  But if they, if a masseuse could include a little back scratch in there.

• 31:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Get ready for a huge tip for me.

• 31:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I guess so.

• 31:42Speaker 02

  Or does that, what, is that sexual?

• 31:45Josh Clark?

  I think it crosses a line once they're potentially clawing away skin cells. I think that's, it's no longer in the masseuse range or masseur range.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I get that. Once skin cells are involved.

• 31:58Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Under the nails.

• 31:59Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  Then you're a murder suspect.

• 32:00Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  All right, well, should we take another break?

• 32:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  And talk a little bit about one of the most distressing, uh, articles I've ever read?

• 32:24Speaker 02

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• 32:38Josh Clark?

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• 32:55Speaker 02

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• 33:03Josh Clark?

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• 33:17Speaker 02

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• 33:31Josh Clark?

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• 34:00Speaker 02

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• 34:51Speaker 02

  All right, so we've referenced this article from The New Yorker from Dr. Atul Gawande. And he talked a lot about itching and just had good information on the science of it all.

• 35:02Josh Clark?

  Well, that's what he does.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  But most of the article was focused on a patient, a woman in Massachusetts, that they named M for the article.

• 35:15Josh Clark?

  Just M?

• 35:16Speaker 02

  The letter M.

• 35:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  In other words, you know, she's anonymous. And I think she was anonymous because she kind of had a rough go after her divorce. She ended up getting HIV from getting on heroin. Kind of spun out, it seems like, but then

• 35:31Josh Clark?

  That's sad.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Got her life back by all accounts, but ended up getting shingles as a result of HIV complications.

• 35:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 35:40Speaker 02

  And the shingles went away, but the itching did not, to say the least.

• 35:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think the itching came after the shingles even. And at first, her physicians were like, well, I mean, you must have, it damaged some nerves in there. So TS for you, I guess.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:01Josh Clark?

  And then eventually, after treating it like all these different ways and it's still being scratching, they said, okay, you're crazy. How about that?

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:11Josh Clark?

  And she said, well, whatever. I still have this itch. Do whatever you need to to treat it because I'm literally scratching this itch in my sleep. It was on her scalp, wasn't it?

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was on her head and she, she kind of managed to control it during the day. But like you said, at night, she couldn't control it.

• 36:28Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  To the point where I think she was like restrained in her sleep.

• 36:32Josh Clark?

  That came after.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. After they realized it's a problem because your brain is oozing out of your head.

• 36:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Can you believe that?

• 36:41Josh Clark?

  She scratched her scalp so much that she scratched through her skull. And she went into her doctor one day and said, they've got like this green fluid coming down. And then apparently

• 36:52Speaker 02

  The doctor fainted.

• 36:53Josh Clark?

  The doctor didn't even say anything. He was just, she or she was like, excuse me. Went and called an ambulance and came back and said, please lay down and don't talk or move or do anything else. And they finally told her after she was at the ER. You scratched through to your brain, like that's your brain you're touching right now.

• 37:10Speaker 02

  The doctor's like, very interesting. Um, just give me a second here.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Well, they gathered up all the other doctors and nurses.

• 37:21Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, you gotta come see this.

• 37:23Josh Clark?

  She said also in this article, um, she said that she had a, uh, uh, what do they call them? A roommate at a, uh, uh, okay, a roommate.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:35Josh Clark?

  So, um, she had a roommate while she was like, they treated it. Gave her a skin graft and then she, she itched, she scratched away the skin graft.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 37:47Josh Clark?

  And then, um, they finally were like, okay, you're going to an asylum. And she's like, do they even call it that anymore? And they're like, just shut up.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:55Josh Clark?

  And they put her in this asylum and restrained her, like you said, while she was sleeping. And she had a roommate in there. She said in the article, she, she heard didn't survive. He had scratched through his carotid artery and died, blood death.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:08Josh Clark?

  Um, so they never really got to the bottom of this. She finally got a, a doctor, like the doctors were like, it's something that had to do with the shingles. This is what we think happens at our doctors. That, that the nerve endings around the area where she had shingles were so devastated by the shingles.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:29Josh Clark?

  That there were just a couple of nerve endings left. And it just so happened that they were itch receptors or itch, itch, um, yeah, itch receptors.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Bad luck.

• 38:37Josh Clark?

  And that those were like really exacerbated by the fact that there was no other competing sensations.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 38:44Josh Clark?

  Ipso facto, there's your problem, right? So they said, well, let's, we'll just cut the main nerve to the, to your face and that should solve the problem. They cut the main nerve to her face and um.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  She said, thanks a lot.

• 38:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And then the itch came back and she's like, you have to be kidding me. So finally she met a doctor who said, I don't think it's your, uh, your receptors or the nerve transmission. I think it's your brain.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:09Josh Clark?

  Not psychologically. I don't think it's a psychosis. I think there's that the actual itch signaling, your brain is being set off without any stimulation or transmission going on.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:19Josh Clark?

  And um, apparently she was right. But then they were like, good luck treating that.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:25Josh Clark?

  You know?

• 39:26Speaker 02

  I didn't see much follow up on this. I did read one article that um, a follow up with Dr. Gawande because there were a lot of skeptics after that article came out that said, it's impossible with your fingernail. Cause she said she didn't use an implement. It's not like she got out a metal file.

• 39:40Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  To scratch through your skull.

• 39:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  And he said that his theory was that bacteria, it became infected, had eaten it away such that the skull became soft.

• 39:51Josh Clark?

  Turned it to mush?

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:52Josh Clark?

  Yuck.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  Uh, and then people also said, you know, you don't have men and women in the same room in hospitals or asylums. That's, that's false. And he said, uh, that it was like the, the room next door. Um, and quit being pedantic.

• 40:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, really. Man.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  I think people just didn't believe it. So all these folks wrote into the New Yorker.

• 40:11Josh Clark?

  So, so.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  Coastal elites.

• 40:13Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Said, no way.

• 40:14Josh Clark?

  They said, a tool, a tool. Come on. So the, the idea though, that even if this woman was hypothetical, I think Tool Gawande is pretty upstanding cat and didn't make this up. But even if, say she was hypothetical, her problem, what the doctors initially thought it was, was that she had a neuropathic itch, type of chronic itch. But then the, the doctor who apparently figured it all out said, no, no, no, it's a neurogenic itch, another type of chronic itch. And it has to do with whether it's the brain going off or the nerve transmissions going off. Either way, you don't actually have an itch, although you're experiencing the itch sensation.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Well, and they also then said at some point she had a psychogenic itch.

• 41:02Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  So they basically covered three out of the four kinds of itches. Uh, the last one being, uh, man, I have such a hard time. Perreceptive, and that's what you get from like a mosquito bite.

• 41:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Or if you have a skin disorder like eczema or something.

• 41:16Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  So they basically ruled out the most common one. And at various stages said, nah, you've got this other one.

• 41:22Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  For the other three.

• 41:24Josh Clark?

  Right. Finally. And then again, they said, we don't, there's really nothing we can do to treat it. The one that they've got down pretty well is perreceptive. We've got all sorts of stuff to treat that because that's, that's basically histamine is being released and your, your skin is itching. So you can treat histamines with antihistamines.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:43Josh Clark?

  You can reduce that response and then your itch will go away.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  Well, I took Benadryl at night. And they also make this Benadryl spray, uh, a topical spray that just, it really helps.

• 41:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  So between that and cortisone and then the Benadryl at night, I, I did okay.

• 41:59Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  And those awesome showers.

• 42:01Josh Clark?

  So the, like the perreceptive itch, we've got treatment for basically.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:06Josh Clark?

  The other three, you're, you're in trouble. It turns out, as far as it stands right now, maybe five or 10 years from now, there'll be something. Apparently there is a lot of movement right now on treating this stuff. But it's like they're having to figure out how to block some really otherwise important chemicals in the body, like that NPPB, right?

• 42:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, that one, what is it can help can regulate your blood pressure as well?

• 42:33Josh Clark?

  Yeah, right.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  So you can't just switch that off.

• 42:35Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:36Josh Clark?

  Just turn off the gene that produces that.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  You won't itch, but you might die early.

• 42:40Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Not worth it.

• 42:41Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  The one that really, I mean, they're all sad, but the psychogenic, uh, when you have a mental illness where you feel like you have parasites and bugs on your skin, um.

• 42:51Josh Clark?

  You remember Morgellons disease?

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:55Josh Clark?

  But how did, you said it Morgellons, right? And I said Morgellons?

• 42:58Speaker 02

  I can't remember. I, I know that I said it the way everyone else, else says it though.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  That's all I remember.

• 43:05Josh Clark?

  Morgulons. That's right. That's how I said it.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  Man, but all this stuff, it just had so much empathy for M.

• 43:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  And wanted to follow up so bad to see how she was doing. You know?

• 43:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  And she kept scratching holes in her skull.

• 43:22Josh Clark?

  I don't know.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Jeez.

• 43:25Josh Clark?

  So there's, I read another article called Accidental Therapists.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 43:29Josh Clark?

  It's by a guy named Eric Brodmann and it was published on a website called STAT. And it's all about delusional parasitosis. But how it's treated sometimes by entomologists. You know, like those extension services at universities?

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:47Josh Clark?

  Here in the US, like state universities have what are called extension services where like a scientist will basically be there for the public to come talk to about whatever. Usually it's like household stuff or farm stuff, something like that. And apparently entomologists frequently are approached with people who are like, I've got these bugs like crawling all over me. Here's a sample of them. And it turns out it's like carpet fiber or something like that. And these people just can't stop itching or whatever, but it turns out that they have a delusion. They don't actually have parasites. My question is, is that our understanding of it now? And in five or 10 years, we're going to know that they had neurogenic itches? And we just treated them like they were crazy, even though they weren't?

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:30Josh Clark?

  And it's going to be like a real blemish on the history of neuroscience?

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 44:35Josh Clark?

  Or will this idea of psychogenic itches, you know, hold up?

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:41Josh Clark?

  I wonder.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Did you ever see the Todd Haynes movie Safe with Julianne Moore?

• 44:45Josh Clark?

  No.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  It was one of his first movies after the Karen Carpenter thing he did. That wasn't like, I mean, it was a real movie, but it wasn't released. But Safe was very disturbing. It was about a woman who kind of slowly drifted into madness from believing that the world was poisoning her.

• 45:03Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  And like household chemicals and everything. And it kind of started slow and eventually she ended up at this kind of safe camp for people like her.

• 45:12Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Very distressing movie and one of her first movies too.

• 45:16Josh Clark?

  I'll have to check it out.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really good.

• 45:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, it's old?

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was early 90s, I think.

• 45:23Josh Clark?

  I know what you're talking about. No, it's called The Road to Wellville. Is that what you mean?

• 45:28Speaker 02

  No, it's called safe.

• 45:29Josh Clark?

  Okay, I'll check it out.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's good. Very distressing.

• 45:31Josh Clark?

  I'm trying to think of any.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  And that wasn't necessarily itching, but it was just like that psychogenic thing of like, I think everything in my house is killing me.

• 45:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, have you ever like stopped and thought about something and thought, there's, there's the path to madness right there. I'm staring down it right now. I should probably not keep thinking about this.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  Hmm, I don't really get like that.

• 45:52Josh Clark?

  Oh, no?

• 45:52Speaker 02

  No, I'm, I'm very easily kind of led on to the next shiny thing.

• 45:56Josh Clark?

  I guess. I'm like a bird.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:58Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Basically.

• 46:00Josh Clark?

  That's probably for the best.

• 46:02Speaker 02

  It is. It has its drawbacks, though. Uh, what else you got? Well, one thing it says in here is that, um,

• 46:11Speaker 02

  having someone else scratch your itch does, apparently does not do the trick. So you have to scratch your own itch.

• 46:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, somebody can, like, obviously, like, you know, if you're like, a little left, a little left, up, up, up.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, see, I don't know if I agree with that.

• 46:27Josh Clark?

  Oh, man.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Not you, the, them saying.

• 46:29Josh Clark?

  Oh, right.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Like, I think it definitely helps.

• 46:31Josh Clark?

  I think what they're saying is, is it doesn't have quite the same relieving properties as if you do it yourself?

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, and if you could reach that area of your back, it would be better than that?

• 46:41Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I guess so.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  I got a pretty good back scratcher now, though.

• 46:45Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah? What's it made of? Bamboo?

• 46:47Speaker 02

  No, it's, it's metal, but it's, uh, telescoping, so it's not, you know, two feet long.

• 46:52Josh Clark?

  Gotcha.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  But it can be.

• 46:54Josh Clark?

  But it's metal?

• 46:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, it looks like a.

• 46:57Josh Clark?

  Like, what are the?

• 46:58Speaker 02

  A bear claw, not the pastry, but a.

• 47:00Josh Clark?

  Oh.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  A real bear claw, which actually is, looks like the pastry.

• 47:04Josh Clark?

  Man, I guess it does.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  That's why they call it that.

• 47:06Josh Clark?

  I never thought about that.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Why'd you think that was called that?

• 47:09Josh Clark?

  I'm just kidding.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  They actually should call it a bear paw. It looks more like a bear paw.

• 47:13Josh Clark?

  I guess it does.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  I'm gonna try and bring that, bring that around.

• 47:17Josh Clark?

  Unless you get somebody who, like, really goes the extra mile and puts almonds on the tips to make it look like the claw?

• 47:24Speaker 02

  Yes. And not just haphazardly scattered about the bear paw.

• 47:27Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:28Josh Clark?

  That's the difference between a baker who loves their job and one who's just in it for the money.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:35Josh Clark?

  A couple more things, Charles. Like we said, there's still plenty of mysteries around itches.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:41Josh Clark?

  Why, say, does a feather tickle sometimes but itch other times?

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 47:48Josh Clark?

  Big question. They don't know.

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:51Josh Clark?

  But I'd like to know.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  Well, maybe the Germans will get active on this again.

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  They're the only ones who can solve it.

• 48:00Josh Clark?

  Though, only the Germans can save us. You got anything else?

• 48:04Speaker 02

  No, I don't.

• 48:07Josh Clark?

  I don't either. Itching.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Nice work.

• 48:09Josh Clark?

  Thanks, man. Same to you.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Thank you. And you haven't scratched in a while, so.

• 48:13Josh Clark?

  No, I'm actually, um, I've been scratching the same spot and it's starting to get a little tender, so I'm stopping.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Man, there's nothing worse than a movie, and I've seen this, I feel like I've seen this a few times in movies, where someone is compulsively like scratching until it becomes a sore, and then they're scratching it. It's just like, ugh.

• 48:31Josh Clark?

  Through to their brain?

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 48:34Josh Clark?

  So I guess the moral of this one is, what would Tom Petty do?

• 48:40Speaker 02

  I'll ask him tomorrow.

• 48:42Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about itching, or what Tom Petty would do, you can type those words in the search bar at howstuffworks.com. And since I said search bar, it's time for listener mail.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm gonna call this one of the many emails we got on the swearing episode. Did you notice that? People really seemed to like that one.

• 49:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they did.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Got a lot of response.

• 49:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  From, mostly from, uh, fellow potty mouths, which were very filthy emails, too, which were great.

• 49:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  And I responded in turn by cursing at them.

• 49:18Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  In my replies.

• 49:19Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Which I hope they enjoyed.

• 49:21Josh Clark?

  In all caps?

• 49:22Speaker 02

  No. I didn't want to be too aggressive. Um, so this is from Emily Allen. Hey, guys, longtime listener. First time writing in.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Writing about swearing, I should start by saying that it's funny I'm writing about this episode because I almost never curse. And when I do, it's normally not a very offensive swear. However, your intro made me think of something interesting I wanted to share. You talked about how you really censor yourself during recording in order to keep your show family-friendly. It got me thinking about how our jobs really shape our vocabulary, how we express ourselves. I noticed a major change in the way I speak since becoming a teacher. I primarily teach kindergarten to second-grade students, and I found this really changed the way I express myself. For example, I try to avoid even saying things are dumb or stupid around kids. I'll often say, "Well, isn't that silly?" instead. This works in the classroom, but I often get laughs from friends and family when I refer

• 50:14Speaker 02

  to a situation as silly, like a disagreement with a colleague or something a politician does. There are other expressions I use with kids that often slip into regular conversation as well. The most embarrassing, when I am out and excuse myself, "To go potty." That always gets a laugh. Anyway, just wanted to share and thank you for all the great work you do. I've learned so much from listening each week, and I'm always excited to see the new episode offerings every Tuesday and Thursday. That is from Emily Allen.

• 50:46Josh Clark?

  Thank you, Ms. Allen.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Very silly.

• 50:48Josh Clark?

  That was a very nice email.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:52Josh Clark?

  If you want to get in touch with us, like Ms. Allen did, you can send us an email, [email protected]. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 51:21Josh Clark?

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• 52:06Josh Clark?

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• 52:52Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.