Pod Insights The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett Most Replayed Moment: The Antibiotic Alternative Big Pharma Doesn't Want You To Know! About this episode Simon Mills is one of the UK’s leading medical herbalists and a pioneer of modern herbal medicine.
In this moment, Simon explains why antibiotics aren’t always the answer - and what traditional medicine has used for centuries instead. From the hidden risks of overusing antibiotics, to simple natural remedies you can make at home using plants, he reveals a completely different way of thinking about treatment.
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Simon Mills: https://www.herbalreality.com/writer/simon-mills/
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:04 Steven Bartlett? So there's sort of three things that I've been able to ascertain as risks of misuse or overuse or inappropriate use of antibiotics, which is the impact on the gut microbiome, that you're contributing to the rise in antibiotic resistance and...
0:19 Speaker 01 Those are the main things.
0:21 Steven Bartlett? I guess even with the diseases you get, you'll be slower to heal because you're less, if you've got that resistance.
0:27 Speaker 01 That is one of the things that we do see, particularly those who are long-term ill, you know, that they lose some of their healing capacity. And that's so much of the work I do is to aim to put some of that right.
0:42 Steven Bartlett? And there's links to colorectal cancers?
0:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, that's it because we're talking about the microbiome, you see. So those are the cancers in the lower gut. And we know that the microbiome is a major factor in how well the gut is. So things like Crohn's and ulcerative colitis and cancer of the bowel are very closely linked to the state of the microbiome.
1:03 Steven Bartlett? Okay. So are there alternatives on this table or in the world of plants to antibiotics that I should maybe also consider, instead of just jumping straight to antibiotics for everything that I experience?
1:17 Speaker 01 Yes. If you've got a serious gut or other infection, you may need the antibiotic. So let's put that straight away. But if you've got a cold, flu, virus, a viral problem, particularly the airways, you, A, antibiotics will have no use at all, and B, as we just said, they just add to the risk of more. Because every time you take an antibiotic, you're growing a small population of that, of the species of bacteria that's affected who are resistant to that. It's natural selection, you know. So you have a thousand little bacteria,
1:57 Speaker 01 that's a small amount by their terms, and you kill 999 of them, the one that survives will then become two in 20 minutes and four in 40 minutes and suddenly become a new population. And, you know, I duck that bullet. And so that group of bacteria will already be resistant. So we're creating resistance every time we use an antibiotic. So try, let's try and do something else, shall we? So let's say you've got a cold.
2:29 Speaker 01 Feeling the cold, it's got a good name, by the way. So cold is one of the things you feel when you've got a cold. And that's interesting because in former times, we didn't have tests. We didn't have laboratories, we didn't have paramedics, we didn't have people poking things in you. All we could know is what it felt like. And when you've got a cold, you often feel cold. And you feel chills and you want to wrap up and you want hot water or you want to have a hot bath. All that in the old language meant that you were cold. And what you needed to do was to heat up. Now you take this fellow, this is ginger.
3:10 Speaker 01 It's grown widely around the world and its original Asian form, it was made extinct around the time of the Romans. So popular was it and ever since, all the ginger scents of this species has got to be going from rootstock because it no longer seeds itself. So this has been the most valuable natural commodity ever. In its dried form, worth more than its weight in gold. And you know, the reason why all those Europeans ended up in Asia and running India and the Dutch and Indonesia and so on. It's because that's where these things came from. That's where the spices came from. And so we decided, you know, like good capitalists to go and control the business.
3:54 Speaker 01 So ginger became very popular over here because we don't have nothing like it over here. The nearest thing we got is horse radish, which I promise you is no substitute for this. So how do we use this? We've got a knob of ginger here about the size of your thumb. That's about a good dose. You grate it, fresh ginger into a mug. Can you do that for me? I've got a grate. I've got a grate for you. So we've got here a piece of ginger, as I say, about the size of your thumb. A thumb is a good measure because it's your measure. So if you're a small person, you'll have a small thumb. But I'm a bigger person, so I'm going to use. And you literally, it's making a bit of a mess here.
4:39 Speaker 01 But when you're doing this at home, you don't mind a bit of mess. So you're literally grating it, grates nicely, doesn't it? Into a mug. And let's say that was the whole thumb, I don't want to take up too much time on this. And then.
4:54 Speaker 01 The one thing that works brilliantly with ginger is cinnamon. Now, this is cinnamon you buy in any shop. It comes in different forms. There's one from China called scassia, which looks like one big curled bark.
5:11 Speaker 01 If you look at this one, you'll see that it's tightly wrapped with lots of little filaments in it. That's the one you go for. It's more aromatic. And you either grate that with a spice mill, or you take a teaspoon of it. Let's say there's a teaspoonful, and you put that in your mug.
5:37 Steven Bartlett? So that's ginger and cinnamon.
5:38 Speaker 01 Ginger and cinnamon, that's it. Then you add your hot water.
5:50 Speaker 01 You're going for real, right?
5:51 Steven Bartlett? Going for the real one.
5:53 Speaker 01 Good on you. At this point, a sieve is useful.
5:57 Steven Bartlett? Why? What for?
5:58 Speaker 01 Because it's going to be full of...
6:01 Steven Bartlett? Oh, bits.
6:02 Speaker 01 Bits. And then, let's say this is a nice Japanese green tea mug, but let's say this is your mug. And we'll pour a little bit in there. You see all the stuff that you leave behind?
6:19 Steven Bartlett? Ah, yeah. Ah, okay.
6:23 Speaker 01 And if you don't mind sharing a mug?
6:30 Steven Bartlett? So what's in here? This is?
6:31 Speaker 01 Just ginger and cinnamon.
6:32 Steven Bartlett? Just ginger and cinnamon?
6:33 Speaker 01 It's fairly weak.
6:36 Steven Bartlett? Oh, it is nice, though.
6:37 Speaker 01 It's nice, isn't it?
6:38 Steven Bartlett? It is nice.
6:39 Speaker 01 Now, can you feel it warming already?
6:40 Steven Bartlett? Yes, straight away. It's really nice.
6:42 Speaker 01 Yeah. Now, you see, what's happening there is that you... I mean, ginger is an example of a group of remedies, which includes turmeric, by the way, and that's other root. The other root there, that's turmeric.
6:58 Speaker 01 It's normally seen in the yellow powder. We might talk about that later. And black pepper and chilies. We've got a chili here.
7:08 Speaker 01 Which, when you take them, you think you're burning your mouth, aren't you? The interesting thing is that
7:16 Speaker 01 there's no burning.
7:19 Speaker 01 You can actually have full madras level chili and no harm will be done to your lining because there's no burning going on. What you're doing is you're stimulating the pain fibers. So you've got pain fibers all the way through the lining of the mouth. When you take a hot thing like ginger, it's stimulating the pain fibers and immediately there's a, what we call a reflex response, which opens up the blood vessels. It's called hyperemia, more blood. And the vessels lining these mucosa, the ones that you've just swallowed and then through a little bit up in the nasal passages, are opening up.
8:04 Speaker 01 The mucus cells producing mucus will loosen up and you get more runny mucus, which is helping to flush through the grot on the mucosa. And the main thing you feel is the warmth. And if you're dealing with something down here in the lungs, you'll actually start bringing up more gunk up the airways. There's a natural escalator that we use, that the body uses to get stuff out of the lungs. That's stimulated. And the mixture of cinnamon and ginger was created, I think, in heaven. I mean, I think there's such a natural complement. And anybody can do that.
8:44 Speaker 01 And the point about it is that it's warming. And in the old days, that was the key thing. It didn't matter if you had a headache or a joint pain or a menstrual cramp. If you wanted to put a hot water bottle on it or heat it up, then that was a cold problem. And putting a heating medicine would begin to make difference. So you can use the same thing. If you have a headache and you want to put a hot pack on it. If you've got a menstrual cramp and you want to put a hot water bottle on it. If you've got a joint pain and you want to put a heating liniment on it. You can use the same thing.
9:25 Steven Bartlett? Ginger.
9:25 Speaker 01 Just because it's heating. And that's simple, old medicine.
9:31 Steven Bartlett? So, so when you're experiencing different types of pain or a cold, then cinnamon and ginger are good. My, I think my.
9:39 Speaker 01 Well, only if it responds to heat. Now, if you want to put an ice pack on, I mean, the old doctors, when someone came with a migraine would say, tell me, would you prefer a hot pack or an ice pack for your migraine? And migraine sufferers generally split seventy thirty preferring heat seventy. But a third of people with migraines actually want a cold pack. You don't use ginger for that. You use cooling remedies, which we might come on to later.
10:08 Steven Bartlett? Okay. My girlfriend, she drinks ginger tea all the time, almost every day.
10:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, she likes the heat.
10:16 Steven Bartlett? She likes the heat.
10:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:18 Steven Bartlett? She, she drinks it before bed as well.
10:19 Speaker 01 Hmm, can help with sleep if that's the way it goes. I mean, everyone, people are different. And there are some people who can't take ginger at all because their stomach objects. Um, or because it, you know, literally heats up too much. They get stimulated by it. Um, but that's where the individuality comes in.
10:41 Steven Bartlett? Okay, so any, any condition where I might be looking for heat, ginger and cinnamon.
10:46 Speaker 01 First place to go.
10:47 Steven Bartlett? First place to go.
10:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, you could, if you wanted to be Tex Mex, you can take the chilies. Um.
10:53 Steven Bartlett? As well.
10:53 Speaker 01 Well, you know, that's a, we think of them as a much more extreme version of the heating. And, you know, remind ourselves, it was only when Europeans discovered Americas that chilies became used over here. You know, can you imagine an Italian meal without, you know, without tomatoes and chilies? But in the old days, there were none of those because they all came from America. Um, but yeah, chilies were the American equivalent of ginger, used for the same purpose.
11:27 Steven Bartlett? So if someone comes to you and they say. Simon, when should I use chilies as a form of medication? What would you say?
11:36 Speaker 01 First of all, I don't know yet. And, you know, if I'm dealing with someone at a distance, you know, online or on the phone or something, and they say, you know, what should I try? I said, the first thing to do is you figure it out. You can start with herbal teas.
11:53 Speaker 01 You are, don't you?
11:54 Steven Bartlett? I'm gonna drop it into the, I'm gonna drop it into here. Is that a bad idea?
11:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, no, go for it. But you'll, you should notice, that should be quite a hot one. I will suggest that they start with herbal teas, because herbal teas are a very low dose. But they'll allow you to figure out what suits you. And you can divide, as I was hinting at earlier, old medicines were often divided into those that were more warming, that we would now call stimulating circulation, and more cooling, which we would now translate as stimulating digestion. And depending on which of those you prefer would really give me a clue. So if you were looking at warming remedies, it could be ginger tea, it could be fennel tea, you know, that's a warming remedy,
12:41 Speaker 01 or it could be cinnamon, or any of the spices. Cardamom is one of my favorites, by the way. This is, I use cardamom, this is the cardamom pods inside the little black seeds. Absolutely lovely taste. Do you know, do you know cardamom? Have you tried it?
12:59 Steven Bartlett? Not really, no.
12:59 Speaker 01 Oh, have a bite of that.
13:01 Steven Bartlett? Do I just bite the seed?
13:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, just bite into it. You don't, just get a hint of the taste.
13:07 Speaker 01 In many parts of the Mideast, cardamom is one of the main flavors, things like coffee and so on.
13:13 Steven Bartlett? Reminds me of, oh, I was gonna say Indian food.
13:17 Speaker 01 Yes, used a lot in India. And in China, it's a convalescent tonic. So they use it when people are building up their digestion after being ill for a long time. They will often use cardamom. It's one of my favorite remedies for that, when people really run low, their digestion isn't functioning. It was appeared in one or two of these stories I've got here, because I prefer that to most of the other spices, when I need warming, as I said before, but also sustaining and nourishing.
13:49 Speaker 01 So you ask them, do you prefer teas that are warming? Or would you like something more cooling? Now, one of the most cooling remedies that people know about is this, which is mint.
14:07 Speaker 01 That spearmint, the best one is peppermint. It's got a lovely smell, isn't it?
14:12 Steven Bartlett? Yeah.
14:13 Speaker 01 That has always been thought of as cooling. And as a simple test, would you prefer ginger or peppermint tea? And already you're beginning to narrow things down a bit.
14:25 Speaker 01 The main cooling remedies throughout history from the very beginning, and in every part of the world, you'll find them saying exactly the same thing. The main cooling remedies, so called, are the bitters. And they taste rarely bitter.
14:44 Steven Bartlett? When you say cooling, you mean I feel hot, so I want something to cool me down?
14:49 Speaker 01 That's right.
14:49 Steven Bartlett? And there's certain conditions where I will feel, I'll feel hot.
14:53 Speaker 01 Fever.
14:53 Steven Bartlett? Fever.
14:54 Speaker 01 And they were often used to fever, manage fever. And what hap- you remember when we were young, we were told, if you've had a big meal, don't go swimming.
15:07 Speaker 01 You weren't told that.
15:07 Steven Bartlett? Yeah. I can't swim, so.
15:09 Speaker 01 No, there you go. But that was one of the things that, you know, some of us in my generation at least, were always remembered, we were told, you know, if you've got a big meal, it's not a good idea to go swimming because the blood's moving into the digestion and you won't get many as much as you want where you need it in the limbs. And that's, you know, it's true, when you're digesting, a lot of blood investment, shall we call it, is going into the digestive system because there's a lot of work needed to break down this food, turn it into something useful. It is an investment. You put a lot in, get much more out. But what it means is, is that digestion is all about, I'm just being a bit loose here with the language, but it's not a bad language.
15:53 Speaker 01 It's like bringing blood into the core. When you've got a fever.
16:00 Speaker 01 The blood's all charging around and your body temperature's going up. Which is great, because fever actually is a defence measure. You know, when our body temperature rises by a couple of degrees, uh, white blood cells, the ones that are doing the legwork, two or three times as active. So fever is what the body uses when it needs to bring out the big guys, bring out the fight. There's a slight design problem, it's almost as though, you know, the creator put a, you know, purposeful fault into the system, because a lot of fever comes from the gut. You know, you get gut infections, you know, that's one of the main places. And at that moment, all the blood's going out here and you want more of it
16:43 Speaker 01 going in, more digestion, if you like. So when you take a bitter, when you're taking a bitter, you're actually triggering taste buds up here. A bitter? A bitter, something that tastes bitter. Is, are there any plants that are bitter? Yeah, a bitter plant, so very common and were highly valued in the old world. Um, in our times, probably the most bitter plant that people used in European terms was something called wormwood. Now, you may not be familiar with that word, but the French for wormwood is vermouth. And you think of the use of a drink before a meal. The idea was, it was, they used to call it an aperitif, something that stimulated your appetite.
17:28 Speaker 01 So they would use bitters to improve your appetite and a low level of wormwood would be one of them, dandelion and burdock are two other bitters, which we now have as a soft drink, you know, particularly in America. And we know that bitters do switch on the appetite, so we sometimes use them when appetite is poor. And, you know, there's all sorts of reasons why you've got a low appetite, but bitters can really help, particularly if you're recovering from an illness. Um, they can help with, um,
18:05 Speaker 01 Getting the digestion juices flowing and the appetite up.
18:08 Steven Bartlett? Because they bring blood to the digestive system.
18:10 Speaker 01 Well, they do all sorts of things, actually. When you switch on these receptors in the mouth, these taste buds, they are hardwired and they produce hormones down here in the stomach that switch on all sorts of things. An effective increase digestive activity, which involves more blood coming into the area. So, yes. Let's imagine you're living in some part of, you know, the desert area in the Middle East. You know, you're eating a sheep or something that hasn't seen a refrigerator and is a bit dodgy, you know. And you think, after a meal, you turn to something easily available in that part of the world. It's a plant called Caffé Arabica. We call it coffee.
18:51 Speaker 01 You ground the coffee into a sludge at the bottom, pour a bit of hot water and drink that straight. That's bitter. So if you've ever had an espresso without sugar, that's a bitter. Okay. And that was used as a digestif. In other words, after you're eating, it would help cope with some pretty rough food. So bitters were always seen to be good for your digestion and appetite. And in fever, that actually meant lowering your body temperature. And that's, we can see that happening, you know. It means that you're, some of the anger out here just gets sublimated into digestion. So that was where the bitters got their cooling reputation.
19:36 Speaker 01 And we can now laugh at this is all medieval nonsense, but the point that I keep coming back to when I'm seeing patients, I start with that blank sheet of paper. It's because the only test of what these do to you is to take it. And as you notice with your ginger and cinnamon, you don't need long. You've got it there straight up. And, you know, if I give a bitter to somebody and, you know, someone is really bitter, they will know within an hour or so what effect it's having.
20:09 Steven Bartlett? What you just listened to was a most replayed moment from a previous episode. If you want to listen to that full episode, I've linked it down below. Check the description. Thank you.
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