Predicting The Future & Dealing With Hate - Gary Vee

Gary Vaynerchuk is an entrepreneur, speaker, author and internet personality. Most people would like to increase their reach online, to connect with people they respect and have access to a bigger audience. Which leaves two questions - is this something you actually want? And if you do, how can you grow your platform in 2024? Expect to learn why attention is more valuable than ever, how to actually become relevant in 2024, what it takes to be authentically yourself in your personal life and online, which social platforms Gary is excited about over the next few years, how he deals with criticism online, how to know when to monetise your following and much more… 00:00 What Should People Know About Attention? 06:05 Missing the Leverage of Social Media 10:19 Building Online Relevancy in 2024 16:37 The Role of Authenticity in Content 27:12 Evolution of Successful Content Types 35:42 What’s the Best Content Style Today? 44:55 Platforms to Watch in the Next 3-5 Years 49:43 Thoughts on Naval’s Airchat 53:56 Long-Form Vs Short-Form Content 1:03:08 Exciting Upcoming Creators 1:08:14 Dealing With Criticism & Scrutiny 1:13:57 What Drives Gary? 1:19:33 The Myth of Identity 1:25:37 How to Know When It’s Time to Change 1:33:35 The Internet’s Culture of Cynicism 1:41:00 What Future Historians Will Look Back On 1:46:00 Young People’s Concerning Social Media Use 1:49:10 The Future of Pickleball 1:52:58 Where to Find Gary Get 20% discount on Nomatic’s amazing luggage at https://nomatic.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) Take advantage of NetSuite's special financing offer at https://NetSuite.com/MODERN (automatically applied) Get 5 Free Travel Packs, Free Liquid Vitamin D and more from AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/wisdom (discount automatically applied) Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period from Shopify at https://www.shopify.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  What do you think most people don't understand about how attention works?

• 0:06Speaker 01

  How long are we in this? This could take the entire show. I think that there's many things. I think for the corporate marketer that's watching right now or listening, meaning someone that works at a company, right? Not like an advanced company. Let's call it the Fortune 50,000, not even 500. They don't realize that they're living in a academia, boardroom environment on intention. They're trading on potential attention, not actualized attention. Historic attention, not actualized attention. They're not day trading attention. They're buying attention of the past,

• 0:49Speaker 01

  even though I think deep down they know they're not buying it. Meaning, for simple terms for everyone, by the way, hi, everyone. Thanks for having me on the show. The reason most companies still spend an ungodly amount of money on television, outdoor billboards,

• 1:05Speaker 01

  print ads, banner ads or pre-rolls or, you know, bad digital stuff is because their internal reports say there's attention there. And so the way corporate works is based on boardroom and fake reports. So I think that whole set, what they don't understand is where the actual attention is. Do I think they know? Do I think the 48-year-old that works at Tesla or BMW or Mountain Dew, do I think they know? The 62-year-old, do I think they know? I think they actually really know. But I think they also know that if they buy TikTok media, that that hasn't made its way into their media agency conglomerate, their corporation, and it won't show up as ROAS positive,

• 1:50Speaker 01

  return on investment positive. So what, and I think because of that, they're not practitioners. When I went through COVID on Zoom with hundreds of CMOs, because now we had the opportunity to do that, I was not flabbergasted, but I was reminded how most of my great friends and contemporaries in corporate America marketing are so far away. From being a practitioner of social media creative of what's going on with micro influencers, of my belief that people like yourself are going to really disrupt CBT, because not only have you built organic audiences, not only do you know how to make actual content that people want to watch, but then even when you do advertising, you

• 2:32Speaker 01

  can outflank them because you understand that the first second of a video on a TikTok or Instagram matter, that the thumbnail matters, that the copy matters, the slang, the terminology, and more importantly, that you know that you'd rather spend your money on social creative media or influencers over so many other behaviors they do. So that's where attention is completely misunderstood in private equity, venture capital, Wall Street, corporations, Fortune 5000, Madison Avenue. On the art world side, all the people that are, more than half of the people that are watching right now, emerging influencers, creators, entrepreneurs, hustlers, grinders, the ambitious, I don't think they understand that it's everything,

• 3:13Speaker 01

  and then thus, they're playing at a seven. Like, the people that we all see in our feeds, our circles, the Austin, Miami, LA, New York, the crew, I think everyone's at a seven. Meaning, they might have Instagram or TikTok down, they might be doing a podcast, they might be vlogging, they might know who the micro influencers are, they've watched me from the OG OG days all the way through all the beasts and the Pauls and the D'Amelios and the Nelk Boys and the U's and like, they've seen it all. But I don't think on a day-to-day, this is why I called it day trading attention. I don't think, when I look at the best, the

• 3:54Speaker 01

  people with millions of followers, I can see that they're still doing 16 months ago tactics, four months ago tactics, whether it's the thumbnail, the copy, the carousel, and definitely for the A players, why they're not A+, why they're B-, they don't with LinkedIn enough, they don't, they don't, they either are YouTube Shorts, or TikTok, or Spotlight Snap, or Instagram, and they're not all. There are very few people on earth, and I'm proud to be one of them, that is actually doing day-to-day creative, organic social on all of them. And I mean, all of them.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  And takes YouTube short nuances very seriously, different than what ex-Twitter does. And so for the A players, the B players, the reason they're not A+ is they're not diversified enough against enough platforms. And they're not, once they hit, they start to get distracted about other things, rightfully so. They expand, they start CPGs, they start going to Coachella and hooking up. They start doing, they start thinking about other things. And it doesn't allow them, and every one of them knows it, right? Like, think about the contemporary set, it's fun that Coachella just happened. Every one of them knows it, that when they were 16, 19, 23, 27, they were 24/7 obsessed with whatever they were obsessed with.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  And then when they start winning a little bit, they take a little of the pedal and they start smelling the roses, and that's amazing. But it means that there's opportunity, and for a lot of them, they've plateaued. Right? Four years ago, when I was yelling about TikTok, a lot of people wanted to stay in Instagram because they had a million followers there, and it was good for their ego. And so they didn't want to start at zero on TikTok. And now what's happened is a lot of those influencers, creators, entrepreneurs are rushing to catch up. And what I wanted to do in this book is tell everybody, like, attention is it? It's like working out, you're in great shape, clearly. Like, okay, you could do it well for four years, but if you take off for two years, like shit's gonna happen. And I just want people to stay on it.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  And so what I think that people misunderstand, that attention is very detailed, like I just broke down two sets, there's many more. But it's very nuanced and detailed within.

• 6:05Chris Williamson?

  It seems like the two big groups there are, one, despite the fact that social media is almost everything that people spend their time on their phones doing, it's still underpriced and undervalued by most.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:16Chris Williamson?

  And

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Definitely corporations.

• 6:18Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Which is, and there's all the money up there. So it allows us kids.

• 6:22Chris Williamson?

  That's your competitive advantage. Be more agile, be closer to the ground. Right? Okay. And then the second side of that to be, I guess, like a combination of even people whose jobs are social media, still a misunderstanding of how much leverage is available, about how broad to go and about how deep to go. And then this temptation to take your eye off the ball if some success does come, you know?

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:45Chris Williamson?

  Almost everybody is less successful than they would like to be. Almost everybody is a C to Z list player that's listening and not a B or an A grade player, which means that the thing, the incentive and the impetus, which is going to slow down the people at the very top, is the competitive advantage for the people that are further down the ladder.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Correct. And, and, and the reason I framed it as day trading attention.

• 7:07Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Tell me about that.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Well, I think, you know, day trading is something, not everybody knows what that is, but a lot of people know what that is. And that's a very different way of buying stocks than the way I buy them. Like, I'll be like, seven years ago, I'm like, you know what? Netflix is gonna win. I'm gonna buy some Netflix and I'm gonna go to sleep. And you have maniacs right now, all over the world.

• 7:29Chris Williamson?

  So you've got like, create aggressively, but trade lazily?

• 7:32Speaker 01

  Yes. And so for me, I wanted people to understand attention is that way, too. And so I'm glad that you crushed it and went from obscurity to a million YouTube subscribers and you're crushing. But you're 23 and you still have huge ambitions and you're talking all sorts of shit that you're the next Mr. Beast. But guess what? I know you're not, because you've already taken the foot off the pedal the last month and shit's happened. And by the way, that's okay. I'm not here to say be a fucking psycho. I'm just saying the game is psycho. And if you want to play it, you have an opportunity and you have to think of it this way, because the styles, the jokes, the slang, the platforms, the algorithms, all of it's moving nanosecond by nanosecond. And either you're about that life or you're not.

• 8:14Chris Williamson?

  You'll love this. So my housemate Zach is way more terminally online than I am. I don't use TikTok personally, but Z does. And he is an honorary CMO of my company, Chief Meme Officer. And he will tell me. Six months before something becomes mainstream on Instagram, what's going to be the new meta on TikTok? And then six months after it's mainstream on Instagram, it then becomes the new meta kind of it breaks out into mainstream media. Like at the moment, the like pedestrian cooked gasoline maxing like walk pilled cities of America, you know, whether it's being dialed or locking in like all of the language moves so quickly.

• 8:56Chris Williamson?

  And he'll tell me about the new meta and then we'll use it in ads on New Tonic and then that'll spin away and I'll need to keep checking in with him. I'll need to get the weather report.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Yesterday I was in San Francisco getting a coffee before my talk. Guy in line says, oh my God, Gary Vee, you know, very flattering, nice little chat. Guy who rings us up is a dude has nail polish, rings us up. He taps me after we had a nice pleasantry and I took a picture with him. He taps me on the shoulder again. He goes, do you remember like a couple of years ago, you said male makeup was going to hit? He's like, look at the guy who just rung us up. I'm seeing that everywhere. I'm like, yeah. He's like, how'd you know that? I'm like, I live in the dirt. Your buddy Z lives in the dirt. The end. You're either an A and R. This is an old music thing. Back in the eighties, how'd you just seventies? How'd you discover Metallica or Guns N' Roses?

• 9:49Speaker 01

  You had to be up at two o'clock in the morning and go into the bars. And that's how you discovered Nirvana. You either were an A and R that not only put in the work and was out to two in the morning, three in the morning in LA and Seattle and New York and hip hop clubs. You also had the ear, right? So Zach, your buddy is not only putting in the time, there's a load of people putting in the time. He clearly has a talent to have a sense. He has a smell of what might hit.

• 10:15Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, he's picking up trends and okay. So let's say that someone isn't toward the top of the tree. Where do people fall short when it comes to building relevancy and attention online now in 2024?

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Right this nanosecond as we film and record this, the biggest framework perspective issue in the game is people make content for selfish reasons versus selfless reasons. The number one thing that I think hurts people that are not winning is because, look, some people are just going to be attractive enough. Some people are just going to be charismatic enough. Some people are just going to have enough experience and expertise in something that it's going to be enough.

• 10:58Chris Williamson?

  You want a tactic that's more reliable and scalable than that?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, just like the three things I just mentioned. Like, that's just a DNA game or a circumstance game. For me, I wasn't attractive enough. You know, maybe I was charismatic enough, but I started making business content at 34. I'd already been doing it my whole life and I'd already built a very large business on day trading attention, on email, search, YouTube, social. So I had the skills. I wasn't 18. I'd lived through it already and could speak to it, right? Not that 18-year-old, by the way, for all the 18-year-olds, I was hustling since I was 10. I had things to say at 18 that were right. So, but I had experience. I think for the rest of the crew that isn't that yet, there's so much opportunity. But I think even for the people that have the luck of the draw or the ones that don't,

• 11:45Speaker 01

  the big game is most people make content to become famous, rich, to scratch their own egos and insecurities. It's selfish. I can tell you right now, no question, the biggest reason I think a lot of things work for me and things I observe in others is when I post something, I'm like, what's in it for them? One of the reasons I never post like bougie shit is I don't understand what's in it for the audience when you show them that you're drinking champagne on a private plane. Once in a while, when I say this, I'll get a DM or a text from a buddy be like, no, bro, it's aspirational. I'm like, bro, there's unlimited aspirational shit out there. You don't need to contribute it. Fuck you. You're doing it to flex. So for me, the first thing that people need to think about is why is this good?

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Now, if you're a magician that does card tricks on TikTok, it's good because that's entertainment. It's the reason people go to Vegas shows. It's why we watch TV. Entertainment's good, humor's good. King Batch, what is like, he brings value. He makes me laugh. Then there's people that give information, inspiration. There's a lot of things you can do, right? And so I think the framework of what's in it for them versus what's in it for me will really help. Most people listening right now, especially given like how sharp I think the audience that listens to you is. They're thinking of it very smartly, like from a business standpoint, from a level like it's the game, right? It's the game. I just, if, if they just added a little bit of like, yes, I understand you're trying to figure out what will go viral, what will overindex, what will work?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  How do I make it happen? How do I build myself up? I want to be a speaker. I want to have a podcast. I want to be an actor. I want to own a sports team, whatever. Just, man, just something of like, can you say something or do something that actually will bring value to someone? Before we started this, you're like, hey, mate, like the book went pretty like deep on the content. That's how I thought about writing the book. We literally had this convo right before we started. The am I writing this book for? Because I was ready to go so detailed. Because I know that people that are good, like winners, the kids, the Zachs out there, that they're going to listen on audio or read the book. And they're going to get their $19 worth of Amazon's going to sell it for because they're going to get one tactic.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  One that tweaks it and gets them value. And so I think the first thing that they need to focus on is the perspective of what's in it for them. I know why you're doing it. You want. What do they want? What's good for them?

• 14:04Chris Williamson?

  Talking about adding value?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  You know, but in a real fundamental way. Like in the same way that those corporate know they're buying bullshit and not social. I'm asking all the hustlers, all the winners, you know, you're doing this for you. Just add a little something for them.

• 14:19Chris Williamson?

  How can you judge that? Because it's very difficult to extract our own ego from the desire to grow our online platform. We want to be validated by the world around us.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Even the most delusional. The most not conscious of us, I just believe in the human spirit when I say this. I think even the ones that are the least in touch with our feelings, the ones that have done the least amount of mental work, the ones that are most cynical, even those people, I think as they're listening to us right now, can have a sense of when they post something, are they trying to bring value to the person on the other side?

• 14:52Chris Williamson?

  Of course, but have you got a more hard and fast rule than that?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  No, I don't. I think-

• 14:57Chris Williamson?

  So do you know, here's one from a friend, George Mack.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Please.

• 15:00Chris Williamson?

  He has Max Content Razor. Would you consume your own content? If not, don't post it.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think that's wonderful. I think we, the reason I say no, I don't, and why I think that's wonderful, I think it all sits in the same cousin tree of analogies that one can use in this moment. It's not super complicated. What's in it for them? Is this good? Did you say something that brings value? Whether you're being vulnerable and creating a connect, vulnerability is a powerful one. There's a lot of people winning out there. Uh, last, this was interesting. Literally when I landed last night, late last night, I've been traveling like crazy this week. I literally tweeted, man, it's been a week. And I was-

• 15:38Chris Williamson?

  I saw the photo of you in the back of the car.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And I was like, this is just like been, I was without context, and this is why written word has no context. I was really like, I didn't want to spell it all out. I just kind of wanted to go with a quick tweet. I was talking from the lens of like, man, this feels like 2016, right? It was like New York to Miami, Miami to West Palm, West Palm to Miami, Miami to San Francisco, San Francisco to Austin, back to New York, like at midnight tonight, then Saturday, Utah, back to you, back to New York, all in one day. Like, I'm like, ooh, this is 2015 life. But I had a lot of people hit me up on DM, on Instagram, be like, you cool? Cause they're not used to, they interpreted as like, maybe I'm struggling or having a pothole or something. And it was very lovely. And it reminded me how much vulnerability stops people in their tracks, provides values, allows

• 16:23Speaker 01

  people to be compassionate towards you. And so there's a lot of ways to bring value. I think Max rules absolutely right. Like, would you consume it? Like, what, I'm always like, what's in it for them? That's the one I go into my brand. What's in it for them?

• 16:37Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about the role of authenticity online now.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Look, I think people talk a lot about this, and I think it's obviously very important. Uh, and I, and the reason I think about it from importance is I think, I don't think it's very important short term. I think it's incredibly important long term. Let me explain. Authenticity is something that gets exposed out over time. You know that this I think is going to really land for you and a lot of listeners. Lots of people are tricking lots of people in the short term.

• 17:05Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  So the reason I like authenticity is why I'm on book seven, why I'm still here. Why in the 2007, eight, nine, social media world of just Twitter and a little bit of Facebook? There was a lot of personalities. And by the way, I was probably the front runner to not be around a year later. Because I came out and I'm so loud, I'm so over the top and so ridiculous. And in 2007, cursing and casual dressing was so not in vogue. And I remember the whispers in the backstages. I read the tweets of like, oh, the wine guy from Jersey, Gary Vee or whatever his name is. He'll be gone in a year. That's clearly just sizzle. And so for me, authenticity speaks to like, why I'm still here in 24? And why almost everybody I met in 2007 is not here? And I think, you know, what is the importance of it?

• 17:52Speaker 01

  I think it's a, it's an incredible indicator of longevity. I think in the short term, it's hard to dissect. Most people don't really know people. People pop out, they get hot for their looks, their smarts, their what have you. What I like about authenticity is I think it is incredibly grounded in the marathon more than the sprint. So I think for all the kids that are listening, good news, you can win in the short term with not being authentic. You can fake the funk, you can trick people to at scale, especially with AI coming, all sorts of shit. You'll be able to trick the out of people for a little while. And then you'll be exposed. And then what are you going to do with the rest of your 90 years of life?

• 18:28Chris Williamson?

  Well, hypocrisy on the internet is like catnip for people. Because do you remember, do you ever play, you might not have been to a British pub in sort of the 2000s? There were these touchscreen games that would spot the difference and it was done with a timer. And you had to hit the differences between the two things. Hypocrisy is basically like an ideological equivalent of that game. You said this thing in the past, you did this thing in the future. I can compare what you stated from what you did or what you said and what you said. And I see there's a discordance here and I'm going to bring it to bear. Because it's so perfectly designed for social media. Because I have the screenshot of the thing that happened before or the video. And I have the video of now and people can compare and contrast.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yes, two dynamics of that. One. For everyone who's listening, that doesn't mean you you're not allowed to change your mind.

• 19:12Chris Williamson?

  Of course.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Right? I think that's one of the most powerful, wonderful things of a human. And to your point, if one then goes and owns that, speaks to losses, says, hey, I used to, now I. So A, you're in control of that. To your point, when you're trying to say you didn't, that starts to kill the lack of authenticity. The other thing that's interesting about what you just said is, man, deep fake videos, what a what a game changing reality we're about to walk into. Like, you know, one of the things I think a lot about is that people find what they're looking for. So if you're looking for negativity, you're gonna find it. If you're looking for positivity.

• 19:46Chris Williamson?

  Misery loves its company. Yep.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  I think with all these fake video, I mean, the amount of videos of you and I that will be on the internet in the next seven years, next 10 years of things we never said.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Literally in a decade from today, most people will not believe any of the videos they see on the internet because there'll be more fake ones than real ones. We're going into such a wild era that is going to reset so many things of truth, hypocrisy, things of that nature. But yes, I have enjoyed that. I'm I'm with you on what you just said. It's been interesting to watch that.

• 20:15Chris Williamson?

  I have a I got asked by a friend probably about a year ago.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Can I give you, I apologize, can I give you a great example? Because I don't think a lot of people sit in both the creator influencer entrepreneur world and in the Fortune 500 marketing world. My favorite hypocrisy happens in corporate America. When you're the CEO of an old media company, you're like, print, TV, it's awesome. And then they go and get a job at Facebook or Twitter or Snapchat and they're like, social media is number one. But I'm like, two weeks ago, you just said that TV was number one.

• 20:43Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  The hypocrisy of corporate animals based on what they're selling is at the highest level.

• 20:48Chris Williamson?

  What's funny about that is that's such a vaulted world that very few of us are going to see. You know, I can see what people LinkedIn post or tweet or Instagram story or whatever. But that thing, you maybe get to see in boardrooms and C suites and stuff like that.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  Or if you just, you know, most of the people listening don't read Ad Age or Ad Week or PR Week. That's right. Right? And so this little industry that spends all of the $70 billion on television, all the crazy shit that goes on in the world and marketing. This goes back to the really exciting part of this conversation. And this book to me is the biggest companies in the world are blowing it. And individual little human beings like you and I have the ability to get market share in a way that has never existed in the history of mankind.

• 21:32Chris Williamson?

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• 22:14Chris Williamson?

  So if it breaks for any reason, they will replace it for free. Right now, you can get 20% off everything site-wide by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to nomatic.com/modernd wisdom. That's nomatic.com/modernd wisdom. Just to round out the authenticity piece.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Please.

• 22:35Chris Williamson?

  I think I heard this sentence a couple of years ago and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it. Speedrunning authenticity, people trying to do that. And that's what you were talking about before. Like, how can I growth hack my way to seeming like I'm telling the truth? Seeming like I'm actually putting me into my content. So I've been working very hard on this over the last six months or so. When I first started the show, I wanted to be seen as a

• 23:01Chris Williamson?

  justifiable, verifiable, reliable intellect. I wanted to have, I was coming out of a time being, reality TV person, model, club promoter, professional party boy, and I wanted to signal I am someone with real intellectual chops. Right? So I almost sort of counter signaled from opening up. I thought that that was sort of irrational and unsophisticated. You know, if my hero is someone like a Jordan Peterson or a Sam Harris, you know, I'm not seeing them getting super emotional. Although some of that changes now. Anyway, recently I've tried to put more of myself into the content. Two things has happened. First thing is when I get compliments about it, when I'm recording it, I feel better. When I get compliments about it, they genuinely land because I invested some of myself into it.

• 23:45Chris Williamson?

  But the other part is I actually think that I think that people see the humanity on the other side of that, like the, the, the way that it makes people feel when you put some of you into it, not just playing the role. Anyone can win by saying the right mouth noises. It's can you do that and it actually be you? That's the question. And there is a way, you're right, over a long enough time scale, you're rolling the dice of playing a role. Eventually you might get rumbled. You might thread the needle and dance through the minefield and get out the other side fine, but none of that success is going to land with you in any case. It's going to be hollow because on the other side of that, it's going to be you looking back on this illustrious history of you being somebody else. Is that success? It doesn't look like success to me.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  I think that was extremely well said and it was funny. I wanted to let you roll, but I, all my urges, because I love to jump in and I know I get raz for that at times, but it's just how I, I, my brain processes. The way you started that whole salakwa is, uh, was the most interesting part. Everyone is dead on arrival and authenticity when they start a sentence with, I wanted to be seen as. It was crazy how my spidey senses went off when you started that. Cause what I realized when you said that was like, right, that's why this has always worked for me. I, I've never had the ability to be seen as. You know, I, there was just something that triggered in me so early in my life is what you, why I was such a poor student.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  I never, I never valued being seen as. I, I, I didn't have that gear. Like I went through high school without feeling peer pressure, which in hindsight now is like insanity. Like that is, that's almost like robotic. Sometimes I even like raz myself for like, do you get feelings? Are you a robot? Like, that's not right. And of course I do. And of course there was micro moments of it. But yeah, I think, I think it's a beautifully well said thing, brother. And I think for, if you're sitting at home right now and saying, I want to be seen as, you're going to put yourself in a vulnerable spot because you're putting the weight of subjective opinions on the outside over your own peace of mind of navigating your game.

• 25:52Chris Williamson?

  Well, ultimately, if I look at a lot of the creators that I really love personally for me, that I actually care about and I have a lot of faith in, Mike Isratel is a good example of this. He's been on the show. He's the founder of Renaissance Periodization. Big Jim, bro. All he does is make incredibly sus jokes and break down exercise science better than anybody else on the internet. And that's him. And I've hung out with him on camera and off camera, and we've had phone calls. And he is the same guy on and off. And that's him. And as he changes, his content will change. But it's not like his content changes and then he changes to catch up with it. Like, he is leading from the front personally.

• 26:31Chris Williamson?

  And yeah, I think that, I think that trying to realize, here's the final thing as well, just the point on authenticity. If you do you, you can never get it wrong.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Of course not, because the only game in life is to mitigate regret. And if you live a fake life, you could have a trillion dollars, all the, all the girls, all the guys, all the trips, all the handbags, all the Lamborghinis. I promise you, I know unlimited 17 to 90 year olds that have all the stuff, who are not living happy lives, who feel empty, who have deep regrets. And so, yes, of course.

• 27:11Chris Williamson?

  What have been the biggest changes in the type of content that works online across the life cycle trajectory since you started creating to now?

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Wow. You know, I started creating February 20th or 21st, 2006. That's when I did my first episode of Wine Library TV. And so, a lot has changed. You know, it's funny, my early instincts ended up becoming the game. One of the reasons I had a lot of eyes on me back in 2006, 7 was I was doing long form video on YouTube. And then I started doing it on a site called Vidler. That was a big early mistake of my career. There was this competitor to YouTube called Vidler that had tagging. And I was doing such long videos. And people wanted to see the third wine I was reviewing. So the tagging at the bottom, you could click the little button and get to the third wine, was like this profound.

• 28:02Chris Williamson?

  Oh, like timestamping or chapters?

• 28:03Speaker 01

  That's right. Well, it didn't exist then.

• 28:04Chris Williamson?

  Right. Okay. How interesting.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Anyway, nonetheless, so much has changed. First of all, all of social media content in 2006, 7, 8, as public creators and influencers, was only Silicon Valley elite.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  There was no normal people on it. Going back to club life, so many of my New York friends and LA friends that are of my age, who I didn't know because I was working in the liquor store and I was working all the time. I didn't do as much nightlife, but a lot of them I know now and they built their careers and everyone's kind of on, you know, found each other. They talk often about the 2006, 7, 8 era of like these social media people, myself included, Zuckerberg, Evan Williams, Travis from Uber of like, oh, we thought those people were nerds. Like that wasn't cool. So the 2006, 7, 8, 9 creators, influencers, content was more intellect, more business, more so, more

• 29:02Speaker 01

  innovation, more techie. There was no, nobody was cool. There was, there was nothing cool about it. And so a lot of it was, if you go look back at, I mean, if I bet you if you read the first 10 million tweets, which I assume from 2006 to 2000, I don't know how long it took them to get there. It is nerd, it's engineers, it's front-end designers, it's Python and Ruby on Rails engineers, it's startup founders, it's VCs. And it's not VCs today, which is like cool bro, gym bros that are also VCs. It was finance. It was coders, it was nerds. I was, when I tell you, I was like

• 29:45Speaker 01

  a charity prod, I was like, the industry, the web 2.0 Silicon Valley industry would point to me a lot in 2006, 7, 8, 9, because I was a wine store owner in New Jersey of like, see, this isn't just San Francisco. I was like an enigma.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  So that was that. Also, nobody thought in what I played out here, nobody was thinking about this in like deep strategy. First of all, the biggest thing that changed is social media for the first decade was email marketing. Amass as many followers as you can, and a certain percentage of them will see it every time you post. Now, in the last three years, we've lived through the Tik Tok-ification of all social media.

• 30:28Chris Williamson?

  What you mean when you say that?

• 30:29Speaker 01

  We now live in a social media world where if somebody listening right now, that 17-year-old you and I, does not even have a profile.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Starts a TikTok account and her or his third post gets 2 million views. That didn't exist ever for the first decade. It couldn't happen. She would have only had 11 followers. Now, the TikTok vacation, the for you page of vacation of every platform, the AI algorithms, the it is now around interests, not around who you follow. Means that every individual piece of content now has the potential to reach a level of awareness that is far outreaching the effort you've put into it. It's the Ozempic and steroids of social media.

• 31:10Chris Williamson?

  Well, it's made it's made social media much more egalitarian in that way.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  No, the meritocracy that we're living in right now. I mean, like, I'm getting, I know, we know when I like, like, we're talking about something important right now. This is how I always write the goosebumps are.

• 31:24Chris Williamson?

  It's the animalistic attraction as well.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  The, the, well, even to you, yes, you are very handsome. No, when I, when I know I'm talking about something that matters, I get goosebumps, which is why we, you know, some people that, you know, Bartley talks about AI or pressing a, I just look at my goosebumps like dust and make sure we clip this.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  The merit of this game right now, and it intoxicates me and I've got the gray hairs and the wrinkles. I put in the work for the last 20 years and I'm pumped that I've been commoditized on the merit of the it, it's the lion eats lion. It's the, they're sports, you can't cheat. Like what I love about social media right now is it's merit based.

• 32:02Chris Williamson?

  You're only as good as your next post.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  When I tell you, I want to eat this, I'm that excites the out of me.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  And I love that for everyone who is sitting right now. I mean, talk about something inspirational. You're listening right now because you motivate them and they see me on it. I'm like, yeah, either I like that guy or that guy, but they're listening, right? They're sitting right now and they're not in a good place. They're like, man, I blew it or I missed it or it's the fact that if they believe me, because it's 100% true. If they're sitting there and be like, wait a minute, my single post about what I know about Zelda, my individual post back to UK culture of like, wait, if I nerd out about darts in detail, is that what these two?

• 32:45Chris Williamson?

  Love that, like, I think, like, what do I think about British culture? Darts, like, that's where you go. It's darts, fish and chips and tea.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  You know, if we, if we, if you really, if you really think about that. You know, going global, like, wait, my unbelievable knowledge of cricket, if I break that down in a green screen, or do this, like, knitting, right, or, like, Nick Berettis, one of my top dogs at VaynerMedia, because he finally heard me and he wanted to be a practitioner, not just an executive, he flips egg omelets, flips them, you might have seen him, he's the guy who takes an egg, like, just egg ome- flips it in air and catches it, he has a TikTok or Instagram, I think, that has more views than I've ever had in my career, that's amazing, like, to me, I just love the opportunities of, back to finding what you're looking for, for everyone who's listening right now, who still has

• 33:37Speaker 01

  either a lot, or a glimpse of optimism left, please listen one more time, because I'm gonna repeat it for the f-ers in the back, the fact that tomorrow, you can start, you decide to go after something you either really know, or you really love, so, going back to what's changed, the day before I started Wine Library TV, I can't believe I'm saying this 18 years later, because I lived it, I sat there and said, I'm doing this YouTube thing, and I debated two things, will I do a wine show, because I know more about that than anything, or will I do a show about the New York Jets, because it's the thing I love the most, I almost did a Jet show, and I ended up doing a wine show, and I want everyone listening right now, about their content on social, am I gonna talk about something I know the most, I'm an accountant, I don't love it, I don't hate

• 34:21Speaker 01

  it, because if you hate it, you'll be dead, I don't hate it, but I don't love it, but motherf- I know accounting, and I also know I'm silly, and I'm a bro, or silly girl, and I'm just gonna make it a little more entertaining, or, I'm obsessed with Avatar, and I'm just gonna make unlimited Avatar movie content, I don't think people realize that most people, if they go hard, for a couple of years on what I'm saying, that on a bad day, they're making 80 to 150,000 a year, in merch, in a couple of brand deals, in pre-roll, right, and for a lot of people... On earth, making one fifty, talking about proper football, instead of making two thirty,

• 35:03Speaker 01

  being an executive in the state organization doing landscaping is a much better life, or even better, because I actually believe the even more extreme. I think over time, everybody will make more than if they hate their job of making social media content around their passions or expertise. And I think that's a level of merit, long tail entrepreneurship. Because we think about this shit from a Mr. Beast, from a Logan Paul standpoint. Most people are not going to make millions of dollars a year in social, but most people have the opportunity to make hundreds of thousands. And that long tail is misunderstood right now.

• 35:41Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about when it comes to the specifics of content snail. What do you, what do you think have got the greatest upside at the moment? Everyone's talking about vertical video, about face to camera. Substack, I think, has got like tremendous, it's one of my favorite. I don't know whether you'd call it social media. I guess it's kind of what Medium should have been.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly right. It's content, it's subscription.

• 36:03Chris Williamson?

  I think Medium shit the bed there and absolutely, I mean, they had it. They absolutely had it.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Ev Williams is probably one of my three favorites.

• 36:10Chris Williamson?

  Is that the dude behind Medium?

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Ev Williams, he's also the dude behind Twitter. I know Jack gets a lot of the credit now.

• 36:16Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  In two thousand six, seven, eight, Jack invented the concept. Ev ran the company. Ev, Ev was, Ev was, was the guy. At bare minimum, they were the co-guys. But the two thousand six, seven, eight, nine era of Twitter was Ev Williams. He also was Bebo, which, you know, like, he, he's like, not Bebo, excuse me. Blogspot, he sold something to Google. I apologize, it definitely wasn't Bebo. It was something else. He's, I think Blogspot or something of that nature. And he also then did a pot after he sold the big company to Google. He was about to build a podcast company and then Apple Podcasts came out. He was smart. He was like, this is gonna lose, shut it down. Very smart. And then Twitter.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  He did Medium. You're right. They were very close. I was so bullish on Medium. And Substack, I think, innovated that same side. Similar to Dig and Reddit, right? Dig was Reddit.

• 37:09Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  And then Blogger. Thank you. Blogger is what Ed Williams did.

• 37:13Chris Williamson?

  From content strategy side, someone says, Gary, I found my thing. I have an idea what my thing might be. It's going to be cricket or tea or darts. What should somebody be thinking about? I think a lot of people get stuck in the

• 37:27Speaker 01

  What to make.

• 37:27Chris Williamson?

  Mechanisms, yes.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Let's go into it. Let's go nerdy. First, it's a self-awareness game. There is multiple mediums that work in communicating. I'm glad you brought up Substack, because it allows me to go there. There is the written word. There are people listening right now who know more about video game 1980s culture than anybody in the world. However, they're very self-aware and they're like, this shit, I'm not going on camera. I don't have the gift of gab. I'm incredibly awkward with my words. I'm shy. I don't like it. Good news. Do you like to write? Huh, I'm a little bit more there. Or they have great gift of gab, but the camera makes them, it kills them.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Great. You've got video, you've got audio, and you've got the written word. If you want to go to the extremes, you could even animate and cartoon it. You could even go that far, but that's a little bit of a further putt. But what would I say? First, you have to know your medium. The preference is video. Because video is a starting point to everything else. I do audio and written word without doing it, because everything's extracted from my video. So video is the holy grail, no question. Video killed the radio. Like, that's right. However, it is not required. That's very important for people to hear. Number two, once you decide to do it, you have to decide your medium. So for example, if somebody who's listening is really into modern IP law with AI coming,

• 38:57Speaker 01

  with NFT culture, with Disney, with Pokemon, LinkedIn and YouTube are going to be much better mediums for them potentially than, let's say, Facebook. Right, but if you're into parenting, Dr. Becky, big shout out, she's getting a lot of momentum. Facebook's a dream. So you have to know where your audiences are, you have to know what mediums, and then per medium becomes the creative variable. Meaning LinkedIn is a monster for the written word. You write a epic four Substack, like New York Times, opt-in blogging medium, you write 12 a newsletter person, you write 12 paragraphs of fire about something B2B

• 39:39Speaker 01

  or business oriented, and you post that on LinkedIn with a good picture, their now for you page stuff will get you lots of views, lots of reads. And LinkedIn is a very different audience. You get one proper to read that, you're getting a message on LinkedIn that's gonna make you money. B2B and like grown up business, LinkedIn is one of the biggest opportunities that people miss. Because, for example, this iconic CPG brand you're building, if you write four paragraphs on your strategy of something you see on LinkedIn, that may lead to a business development deal that will never happen on Instagram where you're building consumer.

• 40:17Chris Williamson?

  Distributor from Walmart happens to come across it.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  You got it? Right? And LinkedIn is so global, it could even be a small, you know, live shopping player in China. People don't understand what's going on. So to answer the question is, they'll all work. When you go into them, it starts getting into real culture. When you're writing something, your headline matters. It's good old newspaper. If that LinkedIn post, the variable is gonna be your opening headline.

• 40:42Chris Williamson?

  What do you think about when it comes to copy for a headline?

• 40:45Speaker 01

  I think about like, what is unique? Can you say a different, what can, and I'll tell you the biggest thing. Actually, thank you for being so good at interviewing. You're pushing me in a good place.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  When I think about social media creative, I think about it in consumer segmentation, something I call cohorts. So when I make content, I'll make content for, I'll think like, okay, I'm making this for 48 to 55 year old parents of a 21 year old, and it's a wealthy family, and the kid is lazy, but they were the parents that made all the money because they grew up poor, and they have anxiety that their kid's lazy, but they're the ones that created the nepotism because they pay them money. That's the content being made for. Cohorts with teeth, that was a very narrow thing. I wasn't saying parents.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  So I think when I think in headlines, I'm like, what narrow group am I writing this for? I'm gonna write this article and this headline is gonna be written for the buyers of the biggest retailers in America. Title, what big box retailers don't know about beverages.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  You see what I just did improv? That my brother, uh oh. That my brother, that's, that's why I wrote this book. That's what I know is missing right now. People are trying to hack the algos. They're looking for best practice. That's wonderful. That's called P, platform strategy. But then there's the C, I call it pack, platforms and culture. And then you have to have consumer cohorts. So you have to know the platforms, absolutely. Vertical this carousel, that live stream this like best practices. As you know, this Tik Tok and Instagram are now littered with characters that do the Gary V thing and tell people what the best platform things are. But the platforms tell you. The Instagram guys making content every day like this is what Instagram cares about. You just follow every time Tik Tok puts out an announcement. That's what they're gonna do.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  It doesn't take a superhero to understand if, if Meta says, we now care about carousels. Go make carousel like Jesus. The culture, the strategy, the headline, like the, the way I'm thinking here, like, who are you making it for? Why are you bringing? Let's go back to something I said earlier. Okay, so now you're writing a LinkedIn post. What big box retailers don't know about the beverage market? If you write this as a press release for you, you're being selfish with the hope that the Walmart bias that article is not gonna hit. If you really take a step back and spend 30 hours analyzing what's happening at big box retailer with drinks and understanding something that they're overestimating.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  You can now say, you could start it with like, one of the biggest mistakes about how big box retailers think about their relationships with Coca-Cola and Dr. Pepper is they overvalue.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  What Poppy was able to, what Prime was able to, got it? Liquid Death, got it? That shit. Love that shit. That level of depth is missing in the game right now. And that goes for everything. You want to be a fashion brand? What's the micro influencer strategy? Do you go to Coachella, not to be at Coachella, but to film everything for you to post, produce it for your social content? Because no photo shoot in a studio like this could ever replicate the actual energy of a festival where the cool kids are cooling out. Things like that.

• 43:52Chris Williamson?

  In other news, this episode is brought to you by NetSuite. The less your business spends on operations, on multiple systems, on delivering your product or service, the more margin you have and the more money that you keep. But with higher expenses on materials, employees, distribution and borrowing, everything costs more. So to reduce costs and headaches, smart businesses are graduating to NetSuite by Oracle. NetSuite is the number one cloud financial system, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory and HR into one platform. With NetSuite, you reduce IT costs because NetSuite lives in the cloud with no hardware required and accessed from anywhere. You cut the cost of maintaining multiple systems because you've got one unified business management suite and you're improving efficiency by bringing all of your major business processes into one platform.

• 44:37Chris Williamson?

  Over 37,000 companies have already made the move. NetSuite has extended its one of a kind flexible financing program for a few more weeks. So right now you can get that by following the link in the show notes below or heading to netsuite.com/Modern. That's netsuite.com/Modern. Talk to me from a platform perspective. A lot of people are going to be asking this question. Okay, so I have a number that are in front of me. I can do written word on LinkedIn. I can do written word on Substack. I can do vertical video, TikTok, Instagram. I can even do that on Facebook. I can just simul post it from Instagram across on the Facebook, can do YouTube Shorts, et cetera. What are the platforms over the next three to five years that you're the most bullish and bearish on?

• 45:19Speaker 01

  I can't answer that question because it's not how my brain thinks. Let me explain what I mean. Day trading attention is don't romanticize about yesterday. Instagram. And don't try to get too excited about tomorrow. Elon posts yesterday. Vine, question mark, right? So Vine's coming. Don't overthink today. I don't know what's going to be there in three to five years. I definitely wouldn't like, the reason I'm good at my game is when it happens, I'm all in. So I can only speak about today and anybody worried about three to five, and people ask me all the time, what's next? Three to five years? I don't know. I know that Meta and Google are not going to disappear. So I continue to think they'll innovate or M and A and be in the game as macro companies. But YouTube Shorts was not in the cards for me three years ago. Right? But then TikTok's pressure made them go there.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  I think Vine is going to be massively interesting to watch when they reboot.

• 46:07Chris Williamson?

  Is that coming back?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I'd be, it would make, it would be, Elon's too smart to not do it.

• 46:14Chris Williamson?

  Does Twitter own Vine?

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:15Chris Williamson?

  Right, okay. And that was part of the deal?

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Yes, once, you know, but they shut it down, but it's still there. Right. And they own the IP. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, Vine is the absolute seed of this generation. Short form videos started on Vine. It was a profound thing when it hit. I remember looking at it day one, I was like, ooh, this is different, different. And it just completely captured youth culture at that time. And I was very serious about it. As a matter of fact, I launched, you can Google this right now, everyone listening. I launched probably, I mean, the article said it, like the first influencer agency called Grape Story, with Jerome Jar, one of the first celebrities on Vine. And we signed Logan Paul, Rudy Monk, who's like all of these characters, Brittany Furlong, like King, like we were talking to all of them. So I, to answer your question directly and not get too scattered here.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  I, I don't know what three to five years is going to bring. I know that for everyone who's listening, the answer is more and yes, and and. Meaning my argument with everyone here today is every minute that you don't spend on gathering more attention is a minute that you're potentially declining on your long-term opportunity. There's times to cash in on your attention. There's times to do other things. But I feel like a lot of people will go, you know, talked earlier about regret. The only things I regret as a businessman is not going harder on my thumb on the scale every time where I knew the attention was. I should have made more TikTok videos six years ago. I should have done more Google Ads in 2001. I should have sent more emails in 96.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  I should have done more tweets in 2007. And so whether it's, you know, we haven't talked about live streaming. I mean, there's so much going on with Twitch and all these live streaming platforms. TikTok Live is very important. Look, we don't, three to five years, what if TikTok gets banned by America in seven months? Where does all that attention go? Hmm. Right? I mean, to me, that's a huge opportunity for Vine. If I'm Elon, I'm sitting like, okay, if I time this perfectly and I'm Elon, right? Like I'm that guy. If I announce Vine the day, like I could probably get every, like it could happen in, that'd be insane. What a strategy, you know? And so. I don't know. I know that as I sit here today, right this nanosecond, Instagram's harder than ever

• 48:30Speaker 01

  because the supply and demand curve on Instagram is hard. More content was made on Instagram yesterday than ever in the history of Instagram. But the attention has been fragmented into YouTube Shorts, into TikTok. So how can Instagram be as good as it was four years ago? It's not. Supply and demand, supply and demand, supply and demand of attention. I know that YouTube Shorts has a longer tail on its views than anything else because YouTube's the second biggest search engine in the world. So I know when I make a short on YouTube, I title it in a way that more matches search than I would on TikTok. Because I want somebody in four months to search, how do I do, and I show up, right? These are the things I obsess over. This is why I went so nerdy in this book. I went so fucking detailed.

• 49:11Chris Williamson?

  That was only a recent update with regards to Shorts, that they were using keywords in title for search.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  It is only been a recent thing more people have talked about, but from the day it started, Shorts were showing up in results.

• 49:25Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, well, it's something that we've, it's something that we've certainly used on the channel that we'll put, if there's a short that comes up from this, it'll be whatever the title of it is. Line Gary Vee, Gary Vaynerchuk, whichever is based on higher for search volume. Okay, so

• 49:44Chris Williamson?

  is there room, in your opinion, actually even better question than that, Naval released AirChat.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:50Chris Williamson?

  This week. What's your thoughts?

• 49:51Speaker 01

  I love it. I'm really enjoying it. I went ham this weekend. This has been a crazy week for me, so I've been a little bit sad that I haven't been able to jam with it as much. First of all, I love the beginning stages of seeing AI so integrated into native social, right? So for everybody doesn't know, AirChat, you know, it's ironic, you may know this, it's been around for almost four years. They keep iterating it, and the latest version of it has really caught fire last week. But by the way, all those nerds from 2006, '07, the Josh Elmans, the Mazzios, like all my favorite homies from back in the day, they're all there. It's the way that it always works. The nerds are always a few minutes before the cool kids.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  So, but now you see a blend, back to cool kids being on there over the weekend in a way that we've never seen before, not even Clubhouse. It's usually the nerds. Now, for AirChat to not become Clubhouse or other things, AKA a feature, right? Because Twitter Spaces is Clubhouse.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  It needs to keep innovating, but it's really cool, right? So for everybody that doesn't know, it's very much like Twitter, but the difference is it's all audio. So you record your tweet, but then it transcribes it into the written word. But when you consume it, you can read it or listen to it. And when there's a conversation or a thread of tweets, it will just play almost like a podcast. It's really neat. There's a lot of cool things in it. So the way I think about things are, are they features? Or are they permanent platforms?

• 51:16Chris Williamson?

  So is this going to get gobbled up by some existing larger platform? And just get folded into their

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 51:22Chris Williamson?

  Feature list.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  That's right. So obviously Twitter would be a natural because it looks most like Twitter. But this might have too much friction for that. The answer is the verdict's still out. But when I think about the things that people have asked me about in the last several years, Dustin is filming in the background right now. You remember I was really on it with BeReal. People are like, BeReal's next. I'm like, hmm, I think it's going to be a feature, right? Like I don't like now. BeReal could have built on top of it, snapped it. Snap early could have been a feature and then they built more things into it. And then obviously their killer feature, Stories, became foundational to every platform. So, you know, I'm always paying attention when new platforms pop. ReClip, I don't know if you've seen this. This one's on my mind a little bit.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Again, I've been watching it for several months. It hasn't popped yet. It's, it's on your phone. It's recording everything that you're talking. It's, it's a recorder of everything.

• 52:14Chris Williamson?

  Oh, it's Amazon?

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, it's what people are scared of thinking what Alexa is. Talk about conspiracy theorists.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  But here's the interesting part. It's only recording the last two minutes. So it doesn't record everything. It's a rolling last two minutes. You know what that allows to happen?

• 52:33Chris Williamson?

  Oh, we just said that thing. Oh, that's very smart. That's cool. That's cool.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  The reason I thought TikTok was going to explode musically was I'm like, oh my God, this is social media training wheels. They're giving people music. They're giving people all these edits. It's going to help non-creators be better creators. The reason I like ReClip, it allows everybody in the world to be an audio content creator or video. Because then when you, when you're done with the ReClip, you can like add features to it. It becomes like a TikTok. I think they're on to something. Again, these are, I'm always watching. But I don't anoint, it's even rare for me to mention something like Reclip in such a prominent platform like this podcast, because I don't want, I don't, on the record, Airchat, Reclip, I don't know, but I'm always in the lab watching, I'm always refining my day-to-day social,

• 53:19Speaker 01

  back to day trading attention, and I'm always watching for the next wave. And sometimes something, I'll tell you this, what I learned on SocialCam, SocialCam was a social network, I think in 2011 or 12, that was hot for, I don't know, 48 seconds, AKA, a summer, but I'm created on it. That helped me understand what to do on Vine. It was even, like Vine actually hit, SocialCam didn't, but it was short-form video. And so when Vine came, I was like, wait a minute. And then obviously, when the whole NextEra came, I was ready for short-form video.

• 53:56Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about long-form content versus short-form, and we can fold into that conversation, volume versus quality slash depth of content as well.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  I think a lot to talk about there. Yes, to your first question, they both work. People will watch a three-hour movie if they love it, or a 45-minute vlog. I did very well with Daily B, they were long. And people will watch seven-second videos that crush, and people will not watch seven-second videos because they're garbage, and people will definitely not watch 25-minute videos if they're garbage. So, that goes back to self-awareness. Like, are you capable of doing a vlog, or a, you know, like, or a great video series, or are you not? Same with short-form. Quantity, quality. Quantity is not debatable. You either make 97 pieces of content in a month, or you don't. Quality is completely subjective. Either this

• 54:48Speaker 01

  person's attractive, funny, insightful, or not. I'm very high on that. However, I do think that people, I think I didn't do a good enough job contextualizing, when I would, you know, I've been screaming on social for seven years, "Volume, volume, volume, volume." The reality is, is, it's a quality-quantity ratio.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Volume if you're capable, if you have a lot to say, if you have a lot of jokes, if you have a lot of good looks, if you have a lot of techniques, if you have, if you have shit to say, go, go, go, go, go, different ways, edits, different, you know? If you don't, of course not. This goes back to earlier, why I'm obsessed with passion or expertise. You're dead if you're not doing passion or expertise. You just won't have enough juice. There was not enough fuel in it. Passion will take you forever, which is why I like that actually more. But expertise, especially if you don't hate it. I always get worried about expertise because a lot of people's thing that they know, because it's their profession, they don't like. And I do think that fuel will run out as well. But to answer your question one more time to recap for everybody, both long and short form work and don't work, it's based on how good are you?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  I think quantity matters in future AI world, you're going to get drowned out by the quality, quantity of content if you're not committed to quantity. But yes, of course, it's predicated on the quality of that quantity. I just think you should have more at bats. Many of the posts I put out with all this 20 years of expertise and writing the book and being that guy, I miss all the time. But I love that feeling. Like I'm trying to learn. I saw somebody the other day in a piece of content, making fun of me and my team for doing all sorts of different shit. And I was laughing because I'm like, no, no, that's the game.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  The point I think he was trying to make is like, he's lost his way, he doesn't know what he's doing, he's just throwing. We're not throwing against a wall to see what sticks. We're exploring different features and things to try to learn what's next. And I have the humility for it to not do well. Do you know that the reason most people suck at social media is they're scared to not get as many views as their little fragile ego needs to go through the day? I don't give a. I'm, I'm streaming on Twitch on mute in my office, 83 people are watching. I don't give a.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  That doesn't take away from everything I'm doing.

• 57:03Chris Williamson?

  Do you not think that there's a degree of optics? Like, people naturally use popularity as a proxy for quality.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 57:12Chris Williamson?

  So, to a degree, if there is, if you're consistently posting in a way that isn't getting, not saying that this is what you're doing, but if you're consistently posting in a way, and it's like eighty-three likes, nine likes, like, that says something to your audience about, you know, when you look at YouTube and you see thumbnail, you see title, you see the name of the creator, you see how long it is, like, those are important metrics. But when you go on, you see how many people have viewed that video.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  It depends on what, if you're trading for popularity, sure, or the perception of popularity, sure, depends on what you're trading on. For me, if eighty people are watching me on Twitch while I'm on mute all day, there's really no reason to watch it, but I'm just experimenting. If someone then decides, like, Gary Vee fell off or sucks, that person is incredibly not smart. Not all, I'm not super worried about losing with losing players.

• 58:12Chris Williamson?

  Hmm, yeah, that's an interesting way. I think a lot about the time of cultivating the audience that you want and being very careful about the sort of people that you attract, you know?

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 58:24Chris Williamson?

  You can throw red meat and you can do the audience capture thing and you can be predictable. There's something I'm.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  I can get a hundred million views tomorrow if I decide to go crazy on something I don't believe on that will goad the entire audience into watching. Who the wants that? Like, it depends on what you're playing for. Too many people are trying to win with losing players and too many people are not trying to win with winning players. One of the things I tell a lot of kids that fake the funk when they pitch me, businesses, I see you're gathering your thoughts, because I want you to hear this, I think you'd really like this, no, no. I totally get it. Um, one of my favorite meetings to have is a kid that comes in that's got it. You know, the juice. But I'm like, listening. I love listening to a pitch. And I realized that she or he just pitched me and it would work on 99%, but not the 1%.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  And what I mean by that is I'll go into something specific, they go where I know they're embellishing. And I'll go very narrow. If it's a place I'm comfortable, I know what I'm talking about. And I know a lot about a lot of stuff. This is why I started VaynerMedia. The main reason I started VaynerMedia was to know as many different things about as many different businesses as possible and build the biggest marketing communications company in the world that I could deploy against my other behaviors when I got older. For me, it's always been about 60 to 70. Like, that's when I'm gonna strike like a cobra. This, right now, is just foreplay. This is just a setup. This is the jab. Anyway, when I'm in a meeting like that, I had this happen the other day with a kid. And I went deep and I was like, da, da, da, da, da, da. And I could see the kid was a little bit like, because I was like, calling him, and he, by the way, he crushed it. Like, I'm

• 59:57Speaker 01

  like, this kid's gonna win. You know, that charisma, that salesmanship. And there was a lot of good stuff. But he was full of shit on like, three or four things. But it was complicated to know it. But it just happened to be in a space that I knew enough to be able to go there.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  He really took it well, which was what I wanted to see. Which gave me even more confidence that he's just 24 and he's gonna get there. And then I said something to him that I really, I say a lot of shit and I'm into this shit, but I like those moments where I'm like, I think this person just internalized this and it's gonna be like a thing. And I can't wait for them to dominate and I'm gonna be old and they're gonna be like, Gary Vee once said to me, 30, I like that stuff. And I like it for him. I said, brother, you're gonna win with 99% of losing players. The problem is you do that pitch again to the 1% winners, you're gonna lose with all of them and they're the only people that matter. And that recaps what we just talked about. So yes, do I think perception is reality? Yes, I do. Do I think brand matters over everything? I sure do. But I think that if people, the biggest issue with the world right now is people want to take everything out of context, have no concept

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  of, we've eliminated intent. People are trying to cancel everybody. Cancel culture was a disaster because it tried to cancel people without understanding their intent. If somebody is a beautiful person, they just didn't know the proper slang, or didn't know, and they just had no ill will. Trying to get them fired for. Similar to somebody seeing a video of like Mr. Beast on a post on Snap only have eighty thousand views and be like, oh, he fell. That's not smart. That's not understanding what people. And by the way, back to your journey and his journey and the journey that I had with empathy wines and kind of new CPG was next and why I talked about it forever and why I built VaynerMedia to be in CPG.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  A lot of creators are going to care less about how many maximizing views. They're going to care about views that translate into CPG sales or hours allocated to meetings in Bentonville or hours allocated to being on TikTok Live. Like shit's gonna change.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Shit changes, but the lack of courage and curiosity of the A-list to try new shit because they're worried about what we just talked about is why a lot of those people are going to end up in the B-list.

• 1:02:05Chris Williamson?

  In other news, this episode is brought to you by AG1. It's important to me that the supplements I take are of the highest quality and that is why for over three years now I've been taking AG1. They conduct relentless testing to set the standard for purity and potency. Everything that they make is the highest quality. It's NSF certified, meaning that even Olympic athletes can use it, and they've updated the recipe fifty-two times over the last decade as new research and sourcing has come in. I'm massively focused on gut health at the moment and AG1's ingredients are insanely heavily researched for efficacy and quality, and I love the fact that they've got pro and prebiotics plus digestive enzymes to help support my gut. Best of all, there is a ninety-day money-back guarantee. So you can buy it and try it every single day for eighty-nine days, and if you do not like it,

• 1:02:49Chris Williamson?

  they will give you your money back. You can get that ninety-day money-back guarantee and try AG1 with a year's free supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to drinkag1.com/wisdom. That's drinkag1.com/wisdom. Give me a handful of creators that if you could bet on them somehow over the next couple of years, you would think about. Or it could just be the ones that you find yourself coming back to. Like you can't wait when you see their videos at the top of your suggested feed or whatever.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  I love you for adjusting based on my facial reaction. That's not why I made that face.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  I'm very weird. Let me explain what I mean by this. I don't consume, like, let me give you an example. I don't know if I'm betting on her. Nick Dio hit me up with, um, with someone yesterday and I spent like, I loved it. Um, it's not that I'm betting on her. Let me see if I can find this. Um, she's like in, in, like an intern. Like this, she's got 37 followers on Instagram. Or 137. And, and Dio said, I bet she has 50,000 in a month. And I'm like, you're right. And what, why I'm, let me tell you where I'm going with this.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  I don't go deep on people or influencers or content creators. I go very wide. I'm looking for macro trends and, and things that I think I can contribute to the conversation in podcasts like this. So for me, I don't actually consume anything. I can, and I consume everything. I'm trying to like, really, the reason I said I'm weird and you like, I'm trying to figure out how I can break this down. I am. Seven years ago, I'd answered Mr. Beast. Yet I've never watched a Mr. Beast video in my life. Like Charlie D'Amelio was in my office for her first business meeting.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  I might've watched one full eight second dance video of hers. To know, like, I'm going so broad. Right? 310 baby as a rapper of like, do I think, like, I, I'll listen to a song first minute. There's something in the way that I, because I'm trying to consume everything. It's almost like I don't have the time to go deep enough. And so I'm not great. I'm disappointed, in a weird way, I'm disappointed in myself to not be able to answer a question. Cause I've seen 50 of them in the last 50 weeks. But I, A, I have some form of reading comprehension issues and dyslexia where like, words are hard for me.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  So like, I could tell someone that I saw them in an airport in Dubai for, and I could tell them, we talked about peanuts 13 years ago. And I could have seen their social media 90 times and they could say, what's my name?

• 1:05:43Chris Williamson?

  Not remember the name.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  And I'm like, I don't know.

• 1:05:45Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of, I guess.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  So I guess.

• 1:05:48Chris Williamson?

  I've got it in my head that you're like a meteorologist, but for social media. You're trying to be the weather report. You're trying to take the big macro trends, what's going.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  And, and I'll see things and I like, like, but it's very hard for me to say, like, especially because I like being historically correct. So I'm not going to sit here and say, like, you know, I think I can tell you the profile. Cause this might help a lot of people.

• 1:06:11Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. What's the kind of person that will succeed over the next few years on social media?

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  The, the ones that can get the noise out.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  The biggest reason people won't win in social media is people don't have the stomach to handle the feedback.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  People won't have the stomach for the changing winds of day trading. They'll be on a pedestal on Tik, all these TikTok. And I say, like, I'm one of them, like the people that are winning on TikTok right now. Their day will come. Their day will come where the attention shifts and they won't be ready. And will they be ready after having four years of being on to do it again? Do you have the intestinal fortitude? To be in perfect, you, you're in such great shape. If you go through a period of your life for three years where you do all the wrong things. And you wake up three years later and say, I'm getting back to this dude. Do you have the strength? Because once, you know, the hardest thing is once you were there, when you lose it to get back, right?

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  If you, if you were making five million a year, let's say you were making 40,000 a year. And then you blew up on social and you had two years where you made three million a year. But then you're not popping on social anymore. Do you have the strength to go back and put the work in to get back to that place? That, do you have the emotional capability to take one step backwards to then take two steps forward? Do you have the grit? Do you have the self-esteem? Do you have the ability to deal with the ebb and flow? Do you have, think about the people that get trolled. Are you gonna cry and disappear? Or are you gonna be Logan Paul and become a WWE superstar? Like, do you have the strength to deal with criticism at scale?

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Do you have the strength to deal with the toe bumps? The biggest reason people aren't entrepreneurs is entrepreneurship is losing constantly with the occasional win. It looks cool, but people don't love eating shit.

• 1:08:13Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about how you deal with criticism and the inevitable ups and downs of success. You're someone that has got both.

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  By being empathetic to it being a reality of life. It's inconceivable that you want attention and you're not going to have judgment. In a world that is obsessed with taking things out of context and only headline reading.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  There's no common sense to that. I don't take it personal. I care about the judgment of the most inner circles that I have. Family and friends, employees, inner circles, acquaintances that became friends. Like, I can't be upset if Johnny 97 thinks I'm a dick face because my energy is too much. I'm also empathetic. I know that my alpha competitive, high-energy jersey, like, I know what this is. That's not for everybody. Some people want to zen out. If you want to zen the out, I'm not your guy.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  And so I'm just too empathetic. I also think it's humility. At the end of the day, I'm like, who the am I? Gives a if I die tomorrow, what's gonna happen? I'll get 24 hours of love on social. Right? People will be like, oh, man, this, what the? Like, you know, like.

• 1:09:27Chris Williamson?

  And then a year later, do you remember Gary Vee?

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And luckily, we live in an era where we're more like, all of us are more like the most famous people in the world. Like, we'll live forever. Like, a clip from this, like, do you know how cool it is that our great, do you know how fun it will be? This is insane. Your and my great, great, great grandchildren will somehow realize, because last names, things will change, but somehow, if they became great friends, would somehow family tree it and be like, holy fuck. And they're gonna, hey, Jeremiah 794? Like, they will literally watch this. Do you know how cool that is? But at the end of the day, how do I handle it? Humility and empathy.

• 1:10:07Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about just that immediate emotional reaction. I think that overcoming that is something that a lot of people struggle with.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's right. You know, look, I.

• 1:10:16Chris Williamson?

  You know, it's nice in the, in the, the stark contrast with, with the nice perspective. And I, I don't disagree. Price it in as the cost of doing business. Cost of doing business, you put things on the internet, people are gonna say mean stuff to you. And fighting against that is like King Canut trying to stop the tide. But that.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Do you know fighting?

• 1:10:33Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  Okay. You know, some people like like getting punched in the face?

• 1:10:37Chris Williamson?

  Yes, I'm friends with Tim Kennedy. Yes.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  I like getting punched in the face. That's my answer.

• 1:10:43Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  I don't know what else to tell you.

• 1:10:45Chris Williamson?

  Yep. It's part of your nature.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  It's my nature. I was shit on my whole life. I was a Russian immigrant. I came over here. Russia was the bad guys when I came here.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  So I got shit on in grade school. I didn't speak English when I moved. I this is a story I tell very rarely. Very rarely. I think I've done it once or twice. I'm going there. I often talk about I lived in people that really know me. My story is I went from Queens to Edison, New Jersey. Edison, New Jersey was where I became a Jets fan and entrepreneur, but it's not fully true. Queens to Dover for a year, then Edison. Dover doesn't make my story. I never understood why, but I'm starting to tap into it. It was bad. Because I didn't speak English and because I went outside a lot, I got picked on a lot and it was a rough neighborhood. I remember one story that's the main story. I remember that era where I saw the kid pee in the Pepsi cup.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  Like by the tree and they came over and the seven of them bullied me to drink it. I was five. Five. And I kind of like tried like if I I don't. It's very blurry. I mean, it's forty three years ago, but like. I didn't speak English. Obviously, when you're an animal like a human at five, you know what's happening. But like, then I was a terrible student. I was D's and F's. And this was the eighties. There was no political correctness. My teachers literally would look me in the face. These are grownups. They're your teachers. You look up to them. They're like, you are loser. You're dumb. You're gonna fail. You're gonna be a garbage man. Then I also love sports. I played sports all the time. Do you know what happens when you play sports? You lose a lot. You win sometimes, but you lose a lot.

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  Video games, this, and then I sold stuff. I did lemonade stands. I would sit on Tingley Lane in Edison, New Jersey as a nine year old and I would watch millions. Let's take a step back. I would see hundreds of cars drop by and not stop for my sign and occasionally get one. I live life under the mindset of it's all shit. But it doesn't matter. The shit doesn't matter. It's the sunshine, the occasional sunshines that is everything. And I think people live the reverse. A little ounce of poopy makes them cry because they're soft, because they're not hard enough, because they're not loving themselves. I love myself too much to give a about you.

• 1:13:08Speaker 01

  I don't know what else to tell you. I don't want to be delusional. I don't want to be living in my own egos. I respect other opinions. I internalize for processing other opinions. But I have no interest in putting your subjective opinion about me above my opinion above me. That's how I deal with it.

• 1:13:35Chris Williamson?

  Neediness occurs when you place someone else's opinion of you above your opinion of you.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  Period. I don't put my parents' opinion above me. I don't even, if I'm not gonna do that, my parents, who I love the most, who built me. If I'm not putting my mom's opinion about me above me on me, how the am I gonna do that about Charlie or Rick or Susan or Haseem? Fuck you.

• 1:13:57Chris Williamson?

  I'm interested in what drives you now. I get when there's a point to prove that when you're an immigrant, that when you've been picked on, that when you've been told you're a loser.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  You know what's funny? My, my, my spirit doesn't come from that chip on the shoulder, even though I just spoke with passion about it. Mine's about curiosity of, I like the game. I'm curious in a wild, I would have loved to have been a professional athlete. I'm so sad I wasn't. That would have really, really satisfied me because the data was there. If I was a running back in the NFL, I would have been, it would have been over and I would have ranked 97th in career rushing yards, 400th in career touchdowns, right? Uh, 18th in receptions by a running back. And I could have like, that would have enjoyed that. I would have been like, ah, good for Barry Sanders. He was better than me. And like, you, uh,

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  Ricky Williams, I was better than you. That's what drives the shit out of me in entrepreneurship. I love this game of brand building and business building. It, you know, as a, I'm talking what drives me as a, as a professional. As a human, what drives me is to be happy as often as possible and, and interact with the people I like the most as often as possible. But so much of what I love and what makes me smile is the friendships I make through the process of business. The family I make through business. It, it's so fun for me and I'm curious. I love where I'm at right now. I've done well, but there are unlimited people on stats that have done better than me.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  But I have a sneaky feeling that I'm going to catch up. And so what drives me is I think I've been built for the fourth quarter of my whole life. I alluded to it earlier. Everything I've been building is for sixty to seventy. So.

• 1:15:46Chris Williamson?

  Do you still want to be working and grinding when you're sixty and seventy?

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Of course, because it's my hobby.

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  I don't want to do anything that I don't like. I was a DNF student because I didn't like it. I was smart enough to get Bs and Cs, but I didn't even have that gear in me. If you said to me, hey, can, hey, great interview. Do me a favor. Could you help me hang this picture real quick? I'd be dead. I'd, I'd rather literally rather give you like lots of money or like do any, like I would go on a conference call to all of your employees for fourteen hours that I don't have sooner than help you hang that picture. So of course I want to do that because I don't think of it as grinding. I don't think of it as hustle porn. I think of it as doing the thing that brings me the most joy. I would rather be in a business meeting than on a golf course. I would rather be in a business meeting than sailing. I would rather be in a business meeting than cooking.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  I'd rather be in a business meeting than watching a movie. I'd rather be really watching the Jets, having dinner with my family. Love dinners with people. Love jam sessions. It's so fun to be in Austin. This is where I learned to love it. South by Southwest on the ground in hotel rooms. Give me twenty five, seven, nineteen, eight, thirteen, smart people, clever people, thinking people, thoughtful people and just jam about it. I'll take that over working every day of the week. But there's just not a lot of garage sailing. I know that's like a funny, like people, like a lot of the kids, because my TikTok videos go, a lot of the kids think of me as the garage sale guy. Because my TikTok videos do like. I just, but even that's business, marketing, buy, sell, trade.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  You know, I really love it. And so of course I want to be doing like I, I, I mean, I, you know, there, you hear these stories, I'm sure this is Crusher Paths, of the people who retire at eighty one and then die at eighty two. I know why. They thought it was what they were supposed to do. And it took the life out of them. I, I have two important things to say about this. One, I'll do this forever and I really hope to live to at least a hundred doing it. Two, I'm incredibly excited of making my last social media post a split screen of this, where I just ranted here and now seventy one year old me is making video and saying, today's the day I'm retiring, both from running businesses and making content. This has been the great joy of my life. I love all of you.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  I hope that all the archives of everything I've put out can bring value to all of you. But today was the day I woke up and I said, I don't like this anymore.

• 1:18:09Chris Williamson?

  So you're open to this trajectory not continuing in the way that you see it right now?

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  In a way that would make your head spin. In equal visceral, high energy of like, the day I wake up and like this shit, I'm out. In the, in the same way that I have full conviction as I sit here right now, that that day will never come.

• 1:18:27Chris Williamson?

  We'll get back to talking to Gary in one minute, but first I need to tell you about Shopify. Shopify powers ten percent of all e-commerce in the United States, including huge brands like Jim Shark and Allbirds and Neutonic. They are the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Look, you do not want to learn to code to start your business. You don't want to learn how to build a website or how to do inventory management or web hosting or to design stuff. You want to get all of that out of the way so you can get on with what you're here to do, which is to build and sell cool stuff. That's what Shopify helps you do and that's why we use them for Neutonic. They're literally your no excuses business partner. You can sell without learning to code or design.

• 1:19:08Chris Williamson?

  You just bring your best ideas and Shopify will help you to sell immediately. Plus Shopify's award winning help is there to support your success every step of the way. Right now you can sign up for a one dollar per month trial period by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to Shopify.com slash modern wisdom or lowercase. That's Shopify.com slash modern wisdom to grow your business now, no matter what stage you're in. How will you, or do you think about the?

• 1:19:38Chris Williamson?

  Myth of identity at all, the fact that you can so much of you and who you are is wrapped up in being that guy and letting go of it.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  Not for me. I'm aware, not for me. I, one of the reasons humility is my partner is I don't give a about Gary Vee. I'm proud of it, but it is not who I think I am. It is not my identity.

• 1:20:02Chris Williamson?

  Where do you take that from?

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  That detachment of it?

• 1:20:06Chris Williamson?

  No, where do you take who you are from? If it's not from the things that you spend, you know, you evidently take pride in being successful and grinding.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  In order, starting with my mom and dad, then my sister, then my brother, in order, probably the top 100 people that have spent the most minutes with me in my life and what they think about me.

• 1:20:26Chris Williamson?

  So for people who are wanting to go on a path of success and exposure to the real world, is that a prophylactic, having a circle of people that you trust, that you have faith, have their best faith in you and care about you beyond not just what you do, but who you are?

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  The reverse, the having those hundred people be someone that you want to do the best for.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Right? Like to me, like you become sustainable and unbeatable if your framework is giving, not taking. And if you do that with those hundred people, of course, the outcome of them caring about you will happen. You've been giving them deposits of love and emotional strength, financial strength, whatever you're providing for them. And so, yeah, I think simplicity is a big game. It's really cool how this all worked out for me. I could have been born in any era. The fact that I'm born in the era where the merit of attention and business is all based on the internet now, no gatekeepers. Good for me. I'm good with that. Two, the era of judgment at scale that will disintegrate the most insecure and allow the most confident to shine, leave impact,

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  inspire the next generation to get the true self-esteem, not fake self-esteem, and be able to navigate these choppy waters. Good for me.

• 1:21:53Chris Williamson?

  I read a really interesting Twitter thread last week about, I've thought about this for ages. I called it the elderly clout paradox, which is we're often told about the perils of fame too young. The Macaulay Culkins of the world, the Britney Spears of the world. And that if you have never known life as anything other than private jets and screaming fans and paparazzi, it can be disquieting because you don't actually know what life is for most people. And if that ever gets taken away from you, who are you, what's your identity? But no one ever talks about the perils of fame too old. And what does it mean if you're some, let's say dusty Canadian psychologist

• 1:22:34Chris Williamson?

  working in the annals of Toronto University and then a bald MMA commentator plucks you out of obscurity and puts you on one of the biggest world tours that any speaking tour has ever been, maybe one of the biggest speaking tours in history, and sell 20 million, 30 million, 40 million bucks. And now so many people criticizing you and all the rest of this stuff. No one talks about that because.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  I feel, I feel way better for Jordan than I feel for Charlie. Jordan Peterson was a grown man and has built foundational abilities to have a relationship.

• 1:23:04Chris Williamson?

  So this is why the only thing that I don't quite know about that.

• 1:23:11Chris Williamson?

  It's difficult to be thrust into the world and never know what it's like to be normal before you've got a sense of who you are as a person. I don't disagree. I don't disagree that that's something that's tough. But what about when you're ripped from your moorings and you thought you knew who you were? You thought you knew.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Well, the good news is for both those people, you're fundamentally in control. Both Charlie D'Amelio and Jordan Peterson are fully allowed to disappear.

• 1:23:33Chris Williamson?

  Would they be? How would they be able to hide? They're going to be noticed every single place that they go.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  The most famous people in the world over time, once they stop feeding them system, can disappear into obscurity.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Do you know how not relevant Jordan Peterson and Charli D'Amelio are in 10 years if they never show up again?

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Day training attention.

• 1:23:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, the the pace of the news cycle means that if you you're only as good as your next video. And if you stop producing, you'll become obsolete very quickly.

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  A hundred. It happens all the time.

• 1:24:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:04Speaker 01

  Do you know how famous TV stars were 15 years ago? Like,

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  Tom Selleck was the most famous 1980s. Like, you know what I mean?

• 1:24:14Chris Williamson?

  My mum fancies Tom Selleck. Yeah, she was like his.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  Of course, I mean, yeah.

• 1:24:19Chris Williamson?

  What a stud. He's my crush as well.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Every I literally half the dudes in the world and every girl did in 1983, but not now. Like, you know, no, I.

• 1:24:26Chris Williamson?

  It's Tom Selleck.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  You know, and listen, that's a legend. It's different. And it's like played, but like, I mean, it happens all the time. Like Lonely Girl 15 was the most famous person on YouTube in 2006. Right? Like, like, it happens all the time. All Jerome Jar. I mentioned him earlier. Jerome Jar was the most famous person on Vine. He represented what who take whoever you think is the single hottest young person right now on TikTok is. He represented that. And then he went to Africa and disappeared off the face of the earth.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  This is the best part of life. You are in control. You want to shit about the president, either side, leave America. You want to say that your mom is toxic? Stop talking to her. You want to like, like, you, you, your buddies are dragging you down? Leave your friends. You don't, you know, Europe is not entrepreneurial enough? Come here. Like, stop crying. Like, I'm not going to cry for Charlie or Jordan or me or you, because I genuinely believe we have the capacity to make change.

• 1:25:34Chris Williamson?

  You mentioned earlier on about how, um.

• 1:25:39Chris Williamson?

  There is a temptation for creators to try and cash in too quickly, that they can continue to put their thumb on the scale, I think you said.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  I was saying like extracting attention.

• 1:25:48Chris Williamson?

  Of course.

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  You know, when you have this competitive advantage, you're like, you know that this music video style works.

• 1:25:53Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:54Speaker 01

  And like, you only made 13 of them, not 700.

• 1:25:56Chris Williamson?

  Correct.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  Go ahead.

• 1:25:57Chris Williamson?

  I understand.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  That's less cashing in, that's more like extracting the most value out of the moment.

• 1:26:02Chris Williamson?

  So it's the inverse that I'm talking about. So someone has a competitive advantage at the moment, they continue to place their thumb on the scale, they continue to rinse and repeat with authenticity and originality and quality and quantity, this thing that is going to continue to spin the wheels and get the engine moving. How do you know when it is time to cash in? Because if, as you say, I am worried for these TikTok fuckers.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  How do you know, how do you know when to get married? You make an emotional, in your body, things start to happen. You like can feel, subjectively, you feel like you're making a subjective decision.

• 1:26:38Chris Williamson?

  People, I don't know whether people should be making business decisions with as much emotion as they do for getting married, though. Would it not be more strategic than that?

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  Well, a couple of things. I think there's a lot of validity in that sentence. I think I'm making a slightly different parallel, which is, nobody will know. You never actually really know if you made the right decision until the post-game. So when should someone cash in? Where I was trying to go with that, and maybe I was going down a bad path, or maybe I'm still there, I'm going to hold on to it for a second, is you need to just kind of make a call. Like, you know, there's been many people that sold too soon. And there's many people that sold too late. Right? So that happens all the time. Instagram. Universally, people thought Facebook was stupid, and they were, they thought Instagram pulled one off. They were wrong.

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  One Billion was one of the great M and A steals of all time. Right? On the flip side, there's been many companies, I mean, the amount of entrepreneurs that are listening right now, that had a $30 million offer on their business, they're like, you, I'm Bezos, motherfucker, and then a year later have zero? You know that, right? You've, you've, you've been around enough already to know unlimited, especially that, notice what number I used? That nice little 1534? And they're just, and they're, and they're dead inside. They're dead inside. This goes back to who's gonna win, the one that could say, look, I sit here, when I tell you it is insane that I did not invest in Uber's angel round, there's no logic behind it. He was my best bud. I was investing constantly in that era.

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  And the serendipity of me playing just enough defense, because I just bought my first real apartment in New York, it was just a little less liquid than the ideology I had me on an investment that I could have made $500 million on. And I love it. I love it. But for a lot of people, that's the death blow. That's why most people get the [__] out of this game. They can't deal with like the what if, what if, there only is. So when should people cash in? I don't know. I think they need to make a decision of what feels right. And when they go to sell something, or when they go to sell it, or when they never monetized their audience, but now they want to sell their first sneaker, or wine, or book, or collectible digital aspect, like, you just gotta go with it. When you gotta

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  go with it, there's, you can feel crescendo. You, by the way, you might, here's a, let me give you a, let me go actually detailed instead of macro, let me go micro. Here's a good reason to sell something or cash in. You're tired. You've been going really hard for six years. You didn't come from much. You're watching your single, your, your father passed away when you were nine. You're watching your mom grind. She's 61. You just went over for dinner and she looks tired as [__]. And you're like, you know what, even though I want to keep building more equity with my audience before I cash in, I'm gonna go in for a cash in right now, because you know what? A couple million bucks right now, I can get my mom to retire, I'm gonna buy her a little house. Her sisters live down in the middle of nowhere, North Carolina. I could buy a [__]

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  house for 200,000, 180,000, she'll be happy. I could use a [__] vacation. Actually, I'm doing too many things. I could use a couple of those bucks to add two teammates to, I don't need to edit anymore, right? There's, there's, there's, that's a for instance.

• 1:29:55Chris Williamson?

  What's your perspective on continuing to ladder up as you're growing, continuing to just do little bits, little bits, little bits, as opposed to waiting until you have a huge amount of latence?

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  Both work.

• 1:30:09Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Both can work. Look, I view this as a value exchange framework. If you're bringing value, one of the reasons I like selling stuff is I believe in what I sell.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  I have a funny feeling you believe in that drink.

• 1:30:22Chris Williamson?

  Uh huh.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  I don't think you mailed that in.

• 1:30:24Chris Williamson?

  No, we were involved every single step of the way. 12 months of development, six months of taste testing.

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  When I tell you, you know, I don't, you know how Amazon works until it comes out. You don't actually know the price because they keep lowering it.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  What this?

• 1:30:39Chris Williamson?

  Whatever the price is, it's not high enough.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  Twenty seven dollars worth of thinking. Like, I believe in this more than my life. I know that I'm one of the few people, the hundreds, but that's not a lot of a billion. I'm one of the hundreds of people that could have wrote this book. Cause I'm that much of a practitioner on every platform. There are very few people on earth that give as much about LinkedIn as they do about Tik Tok and everything in between as I do. Who also have a 2,000 person, 350 million dollar agency that works with, spends billions of dollars in media on social. Like, I got it. You know how good I feel? Do you know how nice it is to sell this? If you believe in what you're selling, there is no better thing. If you don't believe in what you're selling, there is no worse thing.

• 1:31:23Chris Williamson?

  Literally nothing worse.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:24Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I mean, that Naval quote, you're doing sales because you sucked at marketing. You're doing marketing because you sucked at product.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:31Chris Williamson?

  And I think authenticity is a word that comes up a lot in the book.

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:35Chris Williamson?

  And I think rightly so. People are so concerned in an age of high mistrust of messaging from mainstream media, from independent media, all of the guardrails are off. So the independent media can talk about whatever they want. Apparently the guardrails don't even exist for mainstream media anymore now.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:31:52Chris Williamson?

  AI, deep fakes, automation, all of this stuff. I think the more that you can signal, I am a person of trustworthy, verifiable, authentic, real, relatable, aspirational.

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  And then back up the signal.

• 1:32:07Chris Williamson?

  Yes, yes. And here is some proof. Here is some proof.

• 1:32:10Speaker 01

  And you know how proof happens?

• 1:32:12Chris Williamson?

  Correct.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  These kids hate me for pushing patience like it's the cure, but motherfucker. I know all these Alpha A and B winners that I see. I see them every day. I read all their DMs. I watch them. I may not remember their name, but I can tell you the joke they made. Nikki Cass, right? I know that kid is funny as and he's got fire in his belly. And I like, I can do shit like that. And I'm telling you right now, the number one kryptonite for all these supermen and women is patients. They want this shit so fast because they're insecure. They want to show everybody they already won because they play for them, not themselves. Could you imagine if athletes played for the audience? Can you imagine if athletes cried when they, when the home, the Knicks get booed? I'm so pumped about the Knicks right now.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  Finally, the Knicks get booed every single game, every single basketball team that plays in a major city. If they're down 11, nothing and have to call a timeout because they came out shitty Philly, New York, LA, they get booed. Could you imagine if they're like, I'm not going back out there. I just got booed. That's literally like being a content creator. When somebody shits on you or you have a bad day and you don't want to post again. People don't have inner strength because they're insecure. That is what I'm obsessed about 80% of my content to find different ways to get people into self-love because it unlocks everything. You can't play if you're not strong.

• 1:33:34Chris Williamson?

  What do you make of the culture of cynicism on the internet? That to me seems to be kind of the set point, ground zero for the way that people behave online is this cutting, sardonic, very cynical, zero sum mentality.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  I think the internet and social media doesn't exist. I think they're a mirror of human truth. So when I hear you say, what do I think about the cynicism of the internet? I, I take out the word internet and, and put it in society.

• 1:33:58Chris Williamson?

  Aren't people that cynical because they don't seem to behave that same way in the real world?

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  That's because it's scarier to do it. You might get punched in the face.

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  Keyboard warriorship is real fun. People do it in their own minds. They don't say it to your face because they're weak.

• 1:34:19Speaker 01

  The cynicism is happening in the airport right now. They're like, "Look at her. Who does the [__] she thinks she is dressing that way?" They just say it in their head.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  The greatest thing that ever happened to the human being is social media. It exposed the living [__] out of us. And it will allow us over this next decade, we're to, to take one step backwards, to reassess, to take two steps forward. I believe this era of social media will create the great Renaissance era of having real conversations around insecurity and self-esteem.

• 1:34:50Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Because I think there's a lot of pressure. Because I think the conversation you and I are having right now, because I think it's in everyone's face. Because I think people are scared. Because I think suicide and insecurity and unhappiness is really feeling it. But the silly thing is, is there's much more negativity in mainstream media than there is in social media. You can't find positivity on mainstream media. You can find unlimited, come hang with me. You can find unlimited positivity and answers and things that have merit and trying to figure it out with optimism. That is practical. So I laugh about where we're at right now on the shitting on social.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  I laugh because this is another cliche example of the world not understanding. We did this with alcohol. The 1930s in this country of America, we banned alcohol. I love when people are like, "We need to ban social media." I'm like, "Knock yourself out. Can't wait to see how that works out." Like, people are so naive, as if. You need to ban the whole internet if you don't want to deal with what we're dealing. What do you think happens if we banned all social media? Reddit would be a cesspool even more than it is now. Forums, comments on blogs. Like, humans are going to talk now on the internet because you can hide. The shit we used to think in our own heads or only talk to our one friend about or sit in our dinner table and talk about, we now talk about out loud.

• 1:36:16Chris Williamson?

  That's, I've never even thought about that before. That's a very interesting insight that there was no outlet previously that permitted humans to say the...

• 1:36:27Chris Williamson?

  fleeting negative things that came to their mind because the repercussions were too great and the effort of saying them was too high.

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  And the platform did not exist.

• 1:36:36Chris Williamson?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:37Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:36:38Chris Williamson?

  Unless you were gonna chisel it into a wall in ancient Rome or something.

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  Yes. And so there you have it. So friends, nothing's changed. As a matter of fact, I would argue the world is happier than it's been historically overall. The Dark Ages was bad. World wars. What do you think would be happening on social media if we were in World War II right now? Like, I don't understand how people don't understand this. They're like, it's never been worse. I'm like, you know nothing about history. If it was World War II right now, the do you think would be going on on social media? You think like, you think Americans would be like, not saying bad things about Japanese people? Like, we put Japanese people in camps in America. Do you know your history? The do you think? The only difference is it exists.

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  And by the way, it's gonna be way crazier in VR and other like, people don't get what, what country lines matter if we spend 24 hours a day in VR?

• 1:37:38Chris Williamson?

  How should people protect themselves? Uh, if so much of our time is spent online and so much of our interactions with other people is mediated through the internet and social media and social media enables people to be the worst versions of themselves.

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  Or best.

• 1:37:52Chris Williamson?

  And best versions of themselves too.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  Like, they mediate through thoughtfulness. We have to get smarter. Discipline.

• 1:38:01Chris Williamson?

  That's a, um.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Do you know how much of a drug sugar is? Do you know that my body, every time I see a piece of candy, loses its mind? Do you know how hard it is to me for fight? I was at Gap in company the other day. I'm, I'm having a pretty good week with nutrition. I'm pretty happy with myself. Uh, and these little.

• 1:38:19Chris Williamson?

  Bowl of.

• 1:38:20Speaker 01

  No, you know, those peach gummies, the rings, those, I had to grab one. And I was like, you, Gary. But, but I've been able to win most of this week and.

• 1:38:31Chris Williamson?

  You're allowed a peach ring. Let yourself have a peach ring.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  And that's what I, and I'm glad you said that. That's where I was going. And you're allowed to go on social media, do frivolous shit and look at bikinis or look at sports or even leave a negative comment. It's okay, but not in sustained format. It's not okay to live your life going around the internet, saying negative things, because all it's doing is exposing that you're a piece of shit to yourself. You're not happy. Misery loves company. You need to get it out. Do you know how, honestly, the way I deal with negative comments is empathy and compassion and sympathy. They're not in a good place.

• 1:39:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  I feel bad. I don't feel bad for me. I take it in to make sure, again, I'll say it again. I never want to be delusional. I never want to get high on my own supply. I never want to buy into me. I try, that's why I stay away from me. I'm Gary Vaynerchuk. I know what Gary V is. It's me doing content publicly. It's like me being a comedian on stage or me being, like, I love it. Like, I love it. I, it's, I'm not playing a character. It's still me, but it's not my identity and I could stay away from it because I also don't want to buy into, it's also going well. I don't want to think that I'm better than. My favorite feeling is to not think that I'm better than, but want to be better than. I don't think I'm better than, but I strive to be better than.

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  You know, it's a really cool relationship graph, but anyway, nonetheless,

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  I'm so pumped about these last three, four, five minutes. I hope people rewind to the beginning of this. Again, this, this is gonna be a great era. Everyone has decided this is the worst. I just decided that this is the era where this had to be part of the equation. There used to be a world without guns, without atomic bombs, without written word, without like, without, you know how demonized electricity was when it first was invented? It had demons in it, literally demonized. Shit happens. Everyone's like, oh, we used to be awesome. I'm like, no, we weren't. The Holocaust wasn't awesome. Slavery wasn't awesome. Like, the Black Plague wasn't awesome. World War I and II weren't awesome. Like, Vietnam sucked. Like, like, the Civil War was bad.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  You want, you think social media is bad? You think the Democrat Republican thing is bad now? Could you imagine if Twitter was popping during the Civil War? I mean, what the fuck's the matter with everybody? It's so funny. It's like everybody got an F in history. That's how everyone's talking right now. Like, as if everyone got an F in history. Or people aren't good at critically thinking. People are not willing to be thoughtful.

• 1:40:57Chris Williamson?

  I think a combination of the two. One of my smartest friends has a question, which is, what is currently ignored by the media but will be studied by historians?

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  Um, God, that's such a great thing. There's so much. Um, you know, I'm trying to think about my knowledge of what the media is paying attention to right now.

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  You know, one thing I'm very fascinated by is how much of Africa China owns.

• 1:41:25Chris Williamson?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  I'm obsessed with Africa.

• 1:41:27Chris Williamson?

  They've basically made liquid. They've capitalized so much.

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  And I'm obsessed with Africa. I think Africa's the next great continent of talent, of ideas, of impact, of culture, of pop culture. Like, I know pretty much, as I sit here today as a forty-eight-year-old man, that every day between now and my next fifty-two years, I'd really like to get to a hundred. I'll take anything after that. I'd be pissed in heaven for anything less. That Africa will, every day that goes by, the continent of Africa will be more and more important. And so, I don't feel like the mainstream media covers enough of like, how great of a job China has done in, very similar to what America did around the whole world. It's what America did from, you know, nineteen twenty to two thousand.

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  Really was able to influence and infrastructure so many parts of the world. The English language. Like, why do we all talk English? You know, between the UK and the US. And so, you know, I think that's fascinating. I think about that.

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  You know, I think, but I actually, I wonder if you asked this question because of what I just said. I believe what the media has wrong, and what has society has wrong about social media is they think it's changed us. And I believe that social media has exposed us. And I think the only way an alcoholic, the only way, uh, uh, an abusive, uh, uh, spouse, the only way someone that's really struggling with something dark can actually fix it, is the day he or she says, "I am."

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  And then they start the process of fixing it, right? I am not, by the way, I did this on a plane at thirty and a half years old, in Houston, in this great state of Texas. My head on the window, thirty and a half years old, I use a half because I'm eleven years old. And I say, "I'm gonna die before a hundred if I don't start taking care of myself."

• 1:43:24Chris Williamson?

  What were you doing?

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  I just wasn't exercising or eating well. And I could feel it. And I said, "When I'm forty, I'm gonna start taking care of myself." And by the time, that's literally what I said to myself. And by the time I landed in New York three hours later, I said, am I waiting to forty? And I called Mike Vacanti, who was my last trainer, then I only showed up three times out of fourteen sessions and paid for him all. Said, Mike, do you know a young person that can travel with me? Cause I've real, I've also figured out what I need. I need a babysitter. I'm very accountable to others, to my family, to my employees. I'm good, but to myself, I'm like, huh, what up, bro? You know, and so.

• 1:44:00Chris Williamson?

  Me too.

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  And he said, what about me? And I literally worked out with him this morning, ten years later, and he's moved to Minnesota now. He doesn't travel with me full time, but he was on my FaceTime this morning in the hotel in Austin and we worked out. And it changed my life, but I knew it for a decade. The first inclinings of thirty eight was twenty eight. But it took me ten years of subconscious and conscious talk with myself to finally have the tipping point moment. I believe a lot of people know that I'm right, that social media has exposed us, not changed us. But we're not there yet collectively as eight billion people. But when we get there, we will look back in seventy years as social media on top of the internet was a great thing that happened to man.

• 1:44:44Speaker 01

  It just was super painful for twenty five years getting to the next place.

• 1:44:48Chris Williamson?

  I, I wonder how much of the reticence we have around

• 1:44:55Chris Williamson?

  not blaming social media for the way that we behave is that without social media, we need to accept that fact.

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  I love you so much. Accountability is the most interesting conversation on earth right now. We've become obsessed with fingers. Trump sucks, Biden sucks, America sucks, China sucks, my mom sucks, my dad sucks, my spouse sucks, my boss sucks. Everyone sucks, but you.

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  Everyone sucks, but you.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  Our lack of accountability on the back of atrociously bad parenting that was well intended. Last thirty to forty years, we over coddled kids. We made eighth place trophies. We did a bunch of dumb shit. We became friends with our kids, not parents that are friendly to our kids. We've lost our way. It was well intended. I have no judgment as a parent myself. It's impossible. It is the hardest. However, it still is true. And we have become incredible. Of course we blame everybody. We, this, we, so many of us grew up with parents that fought our fights. They ran to the school and yelled at the teacher.

• 1:45:59Chris Williamson?

  How concerned are you about the relationship between teenagers and young kids and their use of social media?

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  I'm concerned if they have parents that didn't create boundaries and created self-esteem. So I'm concerned about the most insecure, but I also see it another way that people don't see it. The 14 year old that is getting bullied online

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  was also the 14 year old that was getting bullied at school when I was growing up. I saw all of them. But they had no outlet. The 14 year old today that's getting bullied online can move from TikTok and delete it and start a Twitch stream and hang out with 12 new friends, playing a new game and create a beautiful life for themselves. I see that all the time. The kid that I was bullied, that I saw bullied, I'm thinking about one kid right now in Ethel Hopock Middle School in Asbury, New Jersey in 1989. When I think about him and then what he did in North Hunnerton, because I watched him for those four years, he had no outlet. There was no internet. He was the most lonely.

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  We have decided that this is bad when it's good. These kids can find their friends in other places, on Fortnite. Do you know how many kids that I know that are not socially winning in school or winning on Fortnite with other kids? Why are we not focusing on that?

• 1:47:16Speaker 01

  The reason we're not focusing on that is something atrocious happened. World leaders in politics have become incredibly not noble. The, the, the way that politicians around the world talk to each other is more similar to the way fifth graders talk to each other than grownups. The lack of civility in our society by world leaders is extraordinary. I mean, it's insanity.

• 1:47:45Chris Williamson?

  It's not statesman like.

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  It, you know what's so funny?

• 1:47:49Chris Williamson?

  It's not even human like.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Thank you, my brother. Statesman like, I can deal with that. Just go even look at like five minutes ago, just go look at George Bush. Two, not even one. That's five minutes ago. We have completely, on both sides of the aisle, on the Brix Alliance and the, and the US and NATO, everyone's a piece of shit. And I say that with respect, but I say it because they've earned it. They do not speak and America's a cesspool. American politicians for the way they talk to each other. It's made everyone feel bad. It's just angst. Fear is being peddled on us at scale.

• 1:48:28Chris Williamson?

  It's super juvenile, you know. I'm not to say that the

• 1:48:31Speaker 01

  It's a juvenile.

• 1:48:33Chris Williamson?

  I'm not to say that the UK is that much better. But if you're thinking these are the people that are supposed to be the leaders of the country. They're the ones that are supposed to be behaving in the most

• 1:48:41Speaker 01

  Nobody feels good. And then you know what trickles down? Then teachers do it.

• 1:48:45Chris Williamson?

  Of course.

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  Then parents do it.

• 1:48:46Chris Williamson?

  Well, it's legitimated by the people that are in charge.

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:48:49Chris Williamson?

  And even if, you know, you can say that in the same breath as having the rebellious American spirit and saying, I am not beholden to anybody.

• 1:48:57Speaker 01

  I don't agree with most things that are accepted, but there's a way to do it. I don't, I may not agree with you, but I don't think you're a piece of shit and deserve to die. What the fuck's the matter with people?

• 1:49:09Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about the future of pickleball.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  You know, I fell in love with pickleball here. The video, back to videoing everything. It's pretty cool. I did a daily V. It's probably six years old. It was me and Ryan Harwood playing with Andre Agassi and Andy Roddick here in Austin, Texas. You know, pickleball, esports, padel, darts, um, uh, uh, tag, there's a world tag league. I'm very fascinated by sports in this way. The first Super Bowl did not sell out.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  The tickets to the game. Couldn't sell it out.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  The 1982 NBA Finals. One of the games was not even aired live in America. It was on tape delay.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  UFC, I watched UFC one with my high school, college buddies. Was like human cage fighting and would never make it another year and was going to be banned. And our parents, like, of course we watched it because our parents didn't want us to watch it. I'm fascinated by how sports emerge and how when I think about pickleball and why I like it, tennis didn't exist all the time, ping pong didn't exist all the time. I don't like the establishment so much and I like consumer behavior and the truth and what people like. So the future of pickleball is bright ish. It's early, it could fall off. But slam ball and all this other stuff, I know, just like UFC in a 30 year window went from nonexistent

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  to I just watched UFC 300 and Max's knockout of Justin is one of the five best moments I've ever seen in sports. And I'm sad because I love, I love them both. UFC [BLEEP] with me because I love all these dudes so much and they bash each, you know, I don't, it's not like wrestling. Wrestling's fun. Like I love Macho Man, Cole Hogan, like they're like UFC with me heavy because literally 93.7% of these guys and gals, I adore who they are outside the cage, who they are in the cage. It was iconic and I'll be honest with you and everyone's going ham on it. Every moment I'm like, man, I just have a lot of love for Justin. You know what I mean? And I know Justin, I don't know him. I know Justin is such a beast. I'm sure he like, you know, he's, I mean,

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  he did that to dust it like, but it like, it is what it is, but um, the future of pickleball, I'll go macro on it. I have no idea where it plays out. I hope it's a huge league because obviously I own a team, the New Jersey Fives, which means a lot to me. Um, if you go to my Instagram, Gary V E E, you can see my first pinned post. You'll see why the number five means so much to me, why I named my pickleball team after it. 76ers who now I hate because the Knicks are playing them in the first round of fives. But um, I know in 30 years, you and I will be at a dinner. And I know there'll be a new sport that none of us see, back to media, what it's not covering, that has the complete attention of the world.

• 1:51:59Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:59Speaker 01

  Is the coolest thing, sitting there with basketball and proper football and American football and UFC. And I'll be like, hey, and for some reason my brain will recall this micro moment. I'm like, remember, you remember?

• 1:52:12Chris Williamson?

  Called it.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  Remember? And, and, but I didn't call it. It's just, it's just history. Like there's always going to be a new sport every 30, 50 years that comes along and, and I want, you know, esports seems very real, but there's so many different games. Like what's it going to be? VR will be real. VR is a good bet. Look, look, it's hard to see a world in 30 years out that VR isn't a big part of our lives. We're starting to see the previews now with Apple and Meta like, and it's going to work. Like it's just like Zoom's worked. Zoom's changed the world. Private aviation with Zoom have created a complete new framework. I mean, the US government's gonna have to figure out tax law because of Zoom and private aviation. It's not sustainable.

• 1:52:51Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:52:52Speaker 01

  States are gonna have to compete with each other in a way that is like really intense, civil war like, you know?

• 1:52:58Chris Williamson?

  Gary V, ladies and gentlemen. Gary, I appreciate you. Your energy is very infectious. I really, really was looking forward to speaking to you. And I like the fact that you're positive about the future. I also think to kind of summarize what I've learned, the only other person that I know that's similar to yourself is Alex Hormozi, and he is someone for whom play and work are the same thing. And that's the fundamental misunderstanding that people have.

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:53:22Chris Williamson?

  That if they realize that what you do for work is what you do for fun, that the work and fun question, the life balance question goes out of the window.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  And life balance question's out the window for everyone because like the concept of bearing your work for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years is not a good concept. I love people like, I work nine to five, but I have like great work life balance. I'm like, you sure don't. You hate 40 hours a week.

• 1:53:49Chris Williamson?

  Oh, yeah. Where should people go? They wanna pick up the book? They wanna keep in touch with all the stuff that you're doing?

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  At this, you know what? Knock on wood. At this point, I have a very good feeling that everybody can find it if they want to.

• 1:53:59Chris Williamson?

  How, yeah. Gary, I appreciate you.

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  Cheers.