Odysseus Beyond the Odyssey, the Ancient Art of Ret-Conning and Unbelievable Things

Pre-order Liv's Odyssey adaptation (!!!), The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling. https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook LONDON! Come to my event at Waterstones on Thursday, June 11 https://www.waterstones.com/events/myths-monsters-and-modern-truths-liv-albert-in-conversation-with-bea-fitzgerald/london-finchley-road-o2-centre!! Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest! CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Sources: Heracleitus' On Unbelievable Things https://topostext.org/work/851; Palaephatus' On Unbelievable Things https://topostext.org/work/808. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or Tech in Steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer. That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 2:01Liv Albert?

  Hi, hello, welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby! And I am your host, Liv. Trying to record again after, ugh, last week. So as you all probably noticed, I didn't come back and re-record those bits of The Odyssey over the weekend because, quite frankly, my book came out in the UK last week and I'm going to the UK on Wednesday night and in a couple of weeks it comes out in North America and quite frankly, I've had too much else going on and way too much stress of like, it's like that constant feeling of, "Oh my God, what am I not doing and how have I fucked up?" Super fun. Um, but that's all to say,

• 2:45Liv Albert?

  that was simply too much going on and I didn't want to re-record the exact same hour and a half all over again, just a day later. And I'm still just so disappointed that I lost that. It's so hard because it's like, it's a one-off in that way where I'm reading it, like for me, the first time, you know, this translation at least, like into the microphone. And so I get a lot of way more genuine reactions and like the same thing comes with answering your questions. Like I'd answered a couple of questions. I was, it was just like such silly, poorly timed because it were questions about epithets. And then like literally right after that recording, I was recording with Michaela and we were doing a Hermes Historia episode for our Patreon where we talked about epithets.

• 3:28Liv Albert?

  And I was like, "This is the perfect timing, all of you patrons, you're gonna..." And then of course, the episode was just lost. So it's just, it feels so weird trying to recreate that kind of spur of the moment responses, but I will, don't worry. So on Friday, we will have that reading episode. We will. We will do it again. It's only again for me. It'll be fine. Um, but for today, I, I didn't want to overload you all with a reading episode, just to follow it with another reading episode on Friday. So I thought I would do a little something different today. We are still dedicating ourselves to the Odyssey and to Odysseus, but I'm going to answer a couple other questions

• 4:09Liv Albert?

  that don't always fit in with the Odyssey reading, uh, episodes. And also I've been sort of picking around at the sourcing around Odysseus and the other characters in the Odyssey, like well after the Odyssey, because I think that's really interesting. Um, one of the things I think I talked about in the lost bit, um, is this idea of, uh, Odysseus's parentage, because one of the epithet questions, and I will get back to it in more detail in the next reading episode, but one of the epithet questions is, or rather just the questions on Spotify, is coming in about why Odysseus is regularly called the son of Zeus. And, you

• 4:53Liv Albert?

  know, is that metaphorically or something more literal? Kind of what is going on there? And I do think it's a metaphor. I think it's just meant to hit, to indicate that he is a mortal who is being like watched over by the gods, like not necessarily protected, because obviously the gods also want to ruin him, but he, it's almost just like he's a mortal that the gods are aware of. And like, that is in itself special, but there is this later construction that makes him related to Hermes as a way of kind of like linking Odysseus with the later heroes who are more explicitly, you know, called out as the children of gods, which I just generally think is really interesting. I'm jumping ahead of myself and that's what

• 5:38Liv Albert?

  I get for not, um, scripting something, but I am simultaneously, along with all of this Odyssey announcement and the book and everything, I am working on a very urgent book proposal.

• 5:50Liv Albert?

  And gosh, if there aren't just not enough hours in the day. So before I get far too ahead of myself, let's get started on the official episode, shall we?

• 6:15Liv Albert?

  Odysseus Beyond the Odyssey. The Ancient Art of Retconning and Unbelievable Things.

• 6:37Liv Albert?

  Now, like I said, I'm gonna intersperse this episode with some questions, especially when they kind of lead into what I want to talk about. But I actually just found a question that I'm gonna start this off with, which doesn't really fit. Um, but this is absolutely selfish of me and I want you all to hear the answer. So this is coming from someone who goes by the name Papa Sin, who says, "I would like to have my hard copy of your Odyssey for Kids book. How can I get a signed copy from you?" And thank you for asking. Um, and to all of you who might be asking, I am working on that. Um, one of the biggest, uh, executive dysfunction blocks in my life is getting that shop up and running because I am perpetually afraid

• 7:19Liv Albert?

  that that means that I will then fall behind on, uh, more things. Uh, but we gotta get on it. So I am, I am gonna do that. I will hopefully be able to offer signed books. That said, they are, I believe, uh, printed in China, which means I'm gonna have to pay, uh, out the fucking ass in US tariffs if I'm going to personally send those to the US, unless I'm mistaken, um, which is just like super cool. We absolutely love the growing fascist government down there. Um, so I don't know how possible that will be or how much people will want to spend like 50 Canadian dollars on a book. Um, it's potentially in the works, but in the meantime,

• 8:03Liv Albert?

  what I have explicitly asked from my publicity people, um, is for ideally custom, like branded of the Odyssey illustrations and everything, um, uh, signature plates, book plates. What that means is like, it's basically a very nice looking sticker, which then I can sign and personalize and mail to you all and then you can stick it in your book. That is way more cost effective, if you can believe it, than trying to ship, like manually ship a book that has Chinese tariffs, whatever, blah, blah, blah, to the States. So that is the goal. I'm waiting to hear back from my publicity people about whether they will give me like custom stickers. Otherwise, I have these like very boring looking, basic

• 8:47Liv Albert?

  labels that like have a little quill on it. So it's supposed to be like an author signed it. They're not very exciting. So I don't know, maybe I'll make something myself if I can afford it. Um, if we need something like that, but that is the idea. All to say, I would really, really, really love for all of you to order my book without thinking of getting it signed initially and just order it. And then I will work really hard to get this option to have these like sticker plates available for you all. It's going to be way more cost effective than you all having to, again, pay me like 50 Canadian dollars for one children's book, which does seem unhinged. Unfortunately, that is the world we live in. Um, so I think the

• 9:31Liv Albert?

  stickers will be better. And so stay tuned for that. But it, I am working on it. But in the meantime, like, don't wait for me before you order my book, please. Um, to be perfectly very transparent right now, like the podcast advertising is like not making almost any money. The money is currently coming from books. Books need to be sold, hence book proposal that I'm working on elsewhere like needs to happen. Um, we're just trying to make sure that we don't have to stop doing this, Michaela and I, because I would shatter my heart into a million pieces. But, um, all to say, if you were thinking about ordering my book, just don't wait on the signing copy, please, especially with the world we live in now. It's not going to be that easy. I would love if you ordered a copy. If you want it now,

• 10:15Liv Albert?

  you can get it wherever books are sold. Well, you can preorder, um, from North America, wherever books are sold, and in the UK and elsewhere, I think definitely in Australia at least, um, it is available now for purchase wherever books are sold. Please check Indies. You know how I feel about Bezos. I'd like to send him into the sun. So by my book, I'm not not losing my mind. Don't worry. Okay. The other question I wanted to start off with before we dive into the deeper, like this, this evolution of the mythology around these characters, because it turns out it's really interesting. There are some very odd inclusions later on, and then delightfully, some really bizarre

• 10:59Liv Albert?

  attempts to rationalize what Odysseus goes through, which are going to be incredibly fun. But I have this question from somebody who calls himself Psychic Link, which is fine. Um, and this question is a perfect introduction, introduction to this idea of this evolution of these characters. So they said, "So I know that Ulysses is the Latin version of Odysseus that we get because of the translation line. My question is, when did we English start calling him Odysseus again? And why?" So I love this question. It is something where I, I really wish I knew more about the history of translation, like when so much of this was happening and like when

• 11:43Liv Albert?

  certain decisions were being made about like what word is what in what language? Um, I'm, it's kind of a complete obsession now, um, for book proposal related topics that I won't spoil. But when it comes to this Latin question, a lot of it relies or it comes from the fact that there was an enormous period of time, like, I don't know if I can say like a thousand years, but like certainly centuries, um, like you're around probably, God, this is like a, a complete guess, but like after the fall of like the Byzantines, um, and then during that time, like there was the Islamic, uh, empire. I don't know if they were a full empire. So that's why I'm being

• 12:28Liv Albert?

  so cagey about it, but like the Islamic people, um, in sort of the Ottoman Empire area and beyond. So Turkey and everything, they were doing a lot of preservation of ancient Greek texts. Uh, we have, we have the Islamic world to thank for so many Greek texts that would have otherwise been lost. Um, but aside from that, The use of Ancient Greek sort of falls out of vogue in terms of like broader, modern languages of Europe. And that's because Latin becomes the dominant, the lingua franca, right? It becomes the dominant language in Europe because of a combination of like the power, the breadth of the Roman Empire, but also the Catholic Roman Empire that

• 13:12Liv Albert?

  came about afterwards, right? And the Catholic Church and all of this. So all of that then hooked onto Latin. And so Latin became like the language. And so that means that from an English perspective, there was like, I think a few hundred years where people, it's not like they, nobody could read Ancient Greek, but it was, it was much more uncommon. And so at the origin, I would say like this sort of the origin of the, the neoclassical like explosion, this like English, um, you know, Northern European, Northwestern European,

• 13:52Liv Albert?

  like obsession with the ancient world, right? When all of that was coming about, most people, if not the majority, or if not all, like, I don't quite know how, like how much Ancient Greek fell away, but just the majority of people were reading Ancient Greek stories in Latin translation. And those stories, when they were being translated into English, they were being translated into English from Latin. And so what that means is that, like, we have the Ancient Greek Odyssey, right? And then what, say, I don't know,

• 14:34Liv Albert?

  some hundreds and hundreds of years later, the Romans take over everything and just colonize the shit out of everything, right? And then Greek, under the like Roman Empire, Greek is actually the like second most common language to Latin. It's kind of like, it's the only other language where they'll decide like, it's fine, you're not a barbarian because you speak Latin or Greek. Like, that's okay. So under the Romans, Greek was still incredibly prominent. It was everywhere. But that said, they still translated Ancient Greek epics, like the Odyssey, into Latin. And whether that happened in the Roman Empire or later, you know, more post fall of Rome and into all of that pre-modern history that I don't know anything about because I'm not that interested.

• 15:18Liv Albert?

  I don't know when, you know, those translations into Latin were becoming more and more common, but what I do know is that certainly when English was first coming to the Homeric texts, they were coming to them from Latin translations into English. So it's, it's like playing telephone with words. Oh my God, is that still a game that any person knows? That like, does it exist? Anyway, you know, it's like you, um, if you're in like a, a group of people and if one person starts telling a story and the other person passes it on, it will eventually like seemingly change, right? And so I think that's how you get a word. Cause Ulysses is so interesting. Like it's so different from Odysseus. And I don't know the linguistic history, but it's always fascinated me because Odysseus

• 16:03Liv Albert?

  is obviously like a explicitly Greek character. Like he doesn't apply in the way that like, you know, you can kind of have like a, a Roman god like Minerva who like kind of has this counterpart in Athena, but is like ultimately entirely her own goddess from Rome. Like Ulysses is Odysseus is Greek period. Um, and so again, I don't know where the like etymology of Ulysses comes from, but I just know that it was more common than Odysseus because Latin was just the dominant language in a way that Greek was really not. And so that's why so many Latin names are more popular. Um, like Cupid, even like simply as that,

• 16:46Liv Albert?

  right? Cupid or, or how, um, you know, we Saturn is the, what we call the planet and you know, Mars, like even the planets are primarily named for the Latin names of these gods, right? Like it was just sort of when, when specifically English, I think was being sort of figured out into what it is today, which also does not include the fact that like English has had so many ancient forms. Oh my God. Anyone ever tried to read Old English? Good luck. Um, but you know, it it was just sort of coming about from Latin. And so that is why we have like Jupiter being such a big name as compared to Zeus and Ulysses predominantly and all of these things. I actually went to high school with a kid named Ulysses.

• 17:31Liv Albert?

  He was really cool and I thought it was really dorky and fun because I was a nerd even back then. Um, but yeah, Ulysses is such a fascinating one because it is just so so distinct. Um, and I'm actually, it's funny that you said this because I I'm really annoyed at myself for not thinking of it at the time, but like there's no part in my book where I point out that Ulysses is Odysseus. And I do think that that's something that's like so easy to not understand and like drive yourself crazy over. Because like, it's such a different name and the name Ulysses is so, you know, much like, well, I'd say more famous now, but historically more famous, absolutely, right?

• 18:07Liv Albert?

  You think of James Joyce's Ulysses, all of this. It's just fascinating. Um, but it is coming overall from this just Latin being dominant and then this sort of return to um, the Greek for the Greek sources, I think was probably only something that was happening over the last few hundred years. Whereas, you know, prior to I don't know, let's be really like, uh, like broad in our guess and say like, prior to like the 17th or 18th century, I think everyone was reading Latin, not Greek. And then there was this reemergence of like the importance of Greece, particularly in like Imperial Britain.

• 18:47Liv Albert?

  And that is where I think they returned to that because it was their, you know, nasty Western civilization attempt to like uh, make themselves the inheritors of like quote unquote, you know, Greek quote unquote, Western civilization, all of that nonsense. But that's kind of where it's coming from. So then Greek was like returning later and then we were learning about all these Greek names. And that's all to get to the last part of your question, which is like, when did we start calling him Odysseus again? And I think that that is also very hard to answer primarily because like I don't know who's we is, I think, part of it, but also like, because Ulysses really is still such a big name. Um, and so I really, I think it's more just it happened somewhat

• 19:28Liv Albert?

  naturally, but particularly naturally for people like me who just really prefer working with the Greek. Like it, it actually like takes my brain, an effort now to like say Hercules instead of Heracles when I want to. Um, and so I think it's just a matter of like, because Greek became something that we were then actually associating with the ancient Greek texts, rather than coming to the ancient Greek texts by way of Latin. It just sort of naturally became like, yeah, we'll call him Odysseus again. But it is, it is such an interesting question. And I think it's a good way of just attempting to conceptualize like how much can happen over these millennia, like since these stories,

• 20:11Liv Albert?

  let alone that, you know, all of the other world historical things and the, the evolution of Latin and all of this had happened post Homer before us. Like there's just, there's so much. It's so interesting. I've talked for way too long about this.

• 20:24Liv Albert?

  One of my favorite genres of like later ancient literature. So from the Roman period and a little, you know, it sort of first, second, third century CE. And I clarify all of that because the time period is such that humanity and specifically the people in this region were looking back on their history and rationalizing things, right? They had evolved to a degree where they understood a hell of a lot more about the world around them than they did, you know, a thousand years earlier when say the myth of Odysseus and the, you know, Homeric epics were being developed. And so what that ends up looking

• 21:08Liv Albert?

  like is people with like a much broader understanding of science and nature and like physics, you know, what is and is not like possible in the world. And there were a couple of authors whose work survives and they, they wrote almost entirely to like rationalize famous myths. And I find it to be utterly delightful. So weird. These are things I figured out. Like I first came across, um, Palephatis's text that translates to being called On Unbelievable Things. When I was writing the introduction for the Medusa piece, because he tried to rationalize Medusa in ways that like, I find to be utterly delightful.

• 21:52Liv Albert?

  And so frankly, that's just what I want to start this out with because it's silly and fun. And so first, I'm going to read, this is actually Heraklitus's text, which is also translated as called On Unbelievable Things. They're two different authors, they, you know, it may or may not be like the certain people that we assign them to in terms of authorship, but either way, there's these two ancient texts, and both of them are doing something similar and that these authors are trying to understand myth in ways that, you know, still show that it's 2,000 years in the past compared to now, and isn't that fun? And so these are written as if like little entries on specific things, so I'm just going to read certain bits of it. It's linked in the episode's description, as always.

• 22:38Liv Albert?

  The first I found was, "The Sirens." And so this is what Heraklitus says about the sirens. "They tell the myth that the sirens were double-formed creatures who had the legs of birds and the bodies of women. They killed those who sailed past. Actually, they were courtesans, renowned for their skill with musical instruments and their sweet voices and exceptionally beautiful. Their accomplishments were such that any men who encountered them ended up having their wealth entirely consumed. They were said to have the legs of birds because they quickly abandoned men once they had squandered their wealth."

• 23:16Liv Albert?

  Spoilers, a lot of these rationalizations are just like weird bits of misogyny. But it's okay, because I mean, let's not pretend that the sirens myth wasn't based on some other form of misogyny. But I have a feeling we're going to come across a handful of, uh, courtesans, you know?

• 23:38Liv Albert?

  And speak of the devil, next I found is Circe. This is how Herakles describes Circe. "The myth has been handed down that Circe used a potion to transform men. Actually, she was a courtesan and used to enchant her guests. At first, she would ply them with every kind of fawning act to gain their favor. After they'd been entranced, she used their desires to keep them leashed to her, acting foolishly like animals in pursuit of pleasure." Odysseus defeated her too.

• 24:13Liv Albert?

  Okay, so yeah, again, they're all gonna be courtesans. Um, this is particularly delightful to me because it just, I feel like it, it really exemplifies so much of the overarching issues with patriarchy and misogyny, even today. Which is just that the, essentially, all that he's saying is that men could not control themselves around Circe. Right? Yeah, but, but it's her fault, right? She is the monster in his situation. She used their desires to keep them leashed to her. Like, no.

• 24:49Liv Albert?

  The men were obsessed with this woman and she just dealt with it. Like, okay, who's fault is it? That men are fucking horny? Cause it's not ours.

• 25:01Liv Albert?

  Oh my god, I'm skipping so many of these, because I'm really trying to keep it to the Odyssey, but we are going to have to do more episodes like this, because it's delightful.

• 25:11Liv Albert?

  Here's a simple one. Calypso and Odysseus. Spoiler: no courtesan! Isn't that nice? "It does not make sense that Calypso offered to make mortal Odysseus immortal. What she actually offered were magnificent plentiful things for his nourishment and enjoyment during his life. Because of this, whenever we recline at a feast, enjoying ourselves magnificently, we too say we are among the gods." It's almost boring, because it's so unoffensive.

• 25:44Liv Albert?

  And of the Cyclops, Heraklitus says, "One should assume that since the Cyclops lived in isolation, he was ignorant of laws, was reliant solely on force, and that he had only one means of perception, his eyesight, and could not foresee anything by way of reason." Clever Odysseus defeated him. So it just, well, it kept going with the, the general xenophobia. I feel like there's a better word for that. This, this assumption that somebody who lives outside the Greek laws is therefore like unaware of laws. I mean, it's also like law is relative.

• 26:26Liv Albert?

  What is a law when you are not living under a governmental structure? Like, it's just basic courtesy, I think. And that is where I think Odysseus is the one who fucks up first. Um, I don't know. Interesting, interesting. I like that. She's just like, "He had only one means of perception and couldn't, couldn't see anything by way of reason." Was he Elon Musk? But what does Heraklitus say about Scylla? Well, it is said that Scylla devoured those who sailed by. Actually, she was a beautiful courtesan, living on an island, and around her she had gluttonous hangers-on who followed her like dogs.

• 27:09Liv Albert?

  With their help, she ruined her guests, among whom were the companions of Odysseus. But she was not able to get to him because he always had his wits about him. Sure. Okay. Did Odysseus tell you that?

• 27:34Liv Albert?

  This episode is brought to you by Quince. You know the drill. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. I have been speaking into a microphone about Quince for a while now, and I have no complaints. I have a bunch of their stuff. I've got a couple cute sweaters that, I mean, it's nearing sweater season, so those will be back in the rotation anytime now. And I have this leather bag that I absolutely love. It's like this braided leather, and I use it like basically every day. Because

• 28:16Liv Albert?

  that's the thing, they have really great basics. Like, they have really great things that you can wear with so many other things. Just the options are endless. And as the weather gets colder, like all the sweaters in my closet, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe, from warm, responsibly sourced down jackets and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves, to beautiful 14-karat gold jewelry that adds the perfect finishing touch. And of course, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And if we haven't learned anything in the last 10 years, isn't it just getting rid of the middlemen, you know? Making things more affordable. So find

• 29:01Liv Albert?

  the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was me. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media. Tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or Tech in Steps. From GPS tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Welcome to 215 Maple Drive. We just put this property on the market.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Love the crown molding.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.

• 30:35Speaker 03

  Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.

• 30:42Speaker 03

  No FiOS? Yeah, no, thank you.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Don't you want to see the rest? Okay, bye-bye.

• 30:48Speaker 04

  Get Verizon FiOS, because when you're moving, it's 100% or nothing.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or Tech in Steps. From GPS tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 32:02Liv Albert?

  All right, that wasn't enough. So I went and found Pali Phattis's on Unbelievable Things. And so we're going to read a little bit of that as well. Again, linked in the episode's description. Uh, Pali Phattis, like I said, very similar to Heraklitus. They were both trying to rationalize these ideas, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years later. Once, you know, they were part of their entire culture. It's almost like people trying to rationalize the Bible. Almost. Okay, this, uh, Pali Phattis here is writing about the Trojan Horse, which is kind of fun. And he says, "They say that the Akkian chiefs in the hollow wooden horse overthrew Iliad. This account is excessively mythical. The

• 32:46Liv Albert?

  truth is this: They built a wooden horse to the measure of the gates, so they could not drag it in because it was too large. The captains waited in a hollow space near the city. They were called an Argive Company until now. A deserter, Sinon, came from the Argives to tell them that, according to a prophecy, if they don't bring the horse into the city, the Akkians will return, and if they bring it in, they won't come again. The Trojans gave no heed, pulled down the wall, and brought in the horse. While they were feasting, the Helenes fell upon them, threw the pulled-down part of the wall, and thus Iliad was taken."

• 33:23Liv Albert?

  I find this delightful because he is not saying that the building an enormous wall-sized wooden horse is unbelievable. No, no. It's that the men were hiding in it, I guess? That's the unbelievable part. And so instead, he's saying that like, in order to bring this unbelievably big wooden horse into the city, the Trojans just like pulled down their own wall? Like, that does not sound more rational to me. And doesn't that just make it more fun? Okay, there's also one on Aeolus, right? And so Aeolus is the king of the winds. Sometimes he's a god, sometimes he's just a man. Either way, he controls the winds. And he is the one who gives Odysseus the winds. He very nearly gets back home and then

• 34:07Liv Albert?

  didn't tell his crew enough information. And so they think that he is stealing everything and taking all of the wealth, leaving none for them. And so they open it and they're all fucked. And this is what Pali Fata says about Aeolus. "It is said that Aeolus was a man who mastered the winds and who gave to Odysseus the winds in a sack. Regarding this, that this is not something that could happen is clear to everyone, I think. More likely, an astrologer named Aeolus told Odysseus the times and at which star risings certain winds will blow. They say he surrounded his city with a bronze wall, which is false. He had hoplites guarding the city."

• 34:50Liv Albert?

  It's really delightful what they find to like, be believable and not, because notice, like, there is no attempt to say that Odysseus was not a man who went and did all of these things. It's just like, oh, the individual things were like, just slightly less dramatic, I guess, or unbelievable. Still pretty unbelievable. Let's see what he says about Skilla. "It is said about Skilla that she was a monster in Tyrrhenia, a woman to the naval and a wo- a woman to the naval and the rest of her body a snake. This nature implies great naivete." "The truth is this: Tyrrhenian ships were plundering the countryside of Sicily and

• 35:34Liv Albert?

  the Ionian Gulf. One of these ships was a trireme, very fast then, named Skilla, and this was written on the prow. This trireme gathered together the rest of the ships many times used to earn its keep, and there was much talk about it. Odysseus, using a strong, favorable wind, escaped this ship. He told the story in Corcira to Alcanus, how he was pursued and how he escaped in the form of the boat. The myth developed." So again, He is suggesting that everything here is real. He's even given us locations. Now, Tyrrhenia is Rome or the general region. The Tyrrhenian Sea is the sea on that side

• 36:15Liv Albert?

  of Italy. And of course, Sicily at this time was like heck and Greek. It was very Greek. And so it's this, I think it's kind of seems like it's like the pre-Latin people, you know, plundering the Greek people of Sicily. And so that's what makes it, ooh, scary. But the idea that Skilla was a ship is very funny. Not least, I mean, he, he also like, doesn't describe her correctly in the beginning, which is very funny to me. So he's trying to rationalize this character, but then he says that she was a woman to the navel and the rest of her body, a snake, which is not Skilla, but Echidna. I don't think there's any time, certainly not in like the Odyssey or ancient Greek

• 36:59Liv Albert?

  materials where Skilla is described like that, like there are other bodies, like monsters like that. Notably, not Medusa, despite what all pop culture today will show you. Not Medusa, but Echidna and not Skilla. Skilla is very clearly, she's top half woman and her bottom half is a bunch of dogs heads that are also kind of snake-like, but it's not like one snake body. It's like many snakes with dog heads. It's very bizarre. It's very bizarre. That was the one, um, that was one of the few notes I had on like the Skilla and Charybdis page, uh, the illustration, uh, when I was working, um, with my editors who were then

• 37:39Liv Albert?

  working with Hazem, the incredible illustrator of, of my book, is that I had to say like, nah, these, these monsters coming out of this rock are, are too sea-monstery. I know that she's a sea monster, but they have to be more dog-like. Does it make sense? No, you just have to make them look more like dogs. And he did, he did, he did a great job of that. But it was a very weird note to have to give. And that is all to say, this guy doesn't even know what myth he's trying to debunk here. And thus, I think it's bullshit. But I do, well, it's all bullshit, but delightfully. I do think it's also hilarious, though, that he's like, no, no, but like Odysseus is like telling the story to Alcanus on Corkira, which is also meaning that he's saying that Phaeisha is Corfu, because that's the modern name of Corkira.

• 38:26Liv Albert?

  Which is also interesting. I, I find, I have a real love hate relationship with when people put the moments of the Iliad onto a real map. And now, of course, like, obviously, they would do it back then because they fully understood Odysseus to be like a real person. And so once they had navigated the Mediterranean, people had to wonder where each thing would happen. Now, today, we know that all of that is a myth, and isn't that delightful? But we do not have to put these locations onto a real map. I mean, there's lots of reasons. I think the one I like to reference is that I think it adds, like, really unnecessarily problematic elements.

• 39:09Liv Albert?

  Because you end up needing to put these, like, very oaky spooky mysterious people in Africa. And I just think that is continuing on with a bunch of bullshit stereotype Western civilization nonsense that we don't need to continue on with. But even from like a basic, I'm pretty damn sure I'm autistic point of view, the thing that I cannot get over when people try to put the moments on a real map is that it does not logistically make sense for the Odyssey, if you try to do that. Because people are always putting like Polyphemus on an island near Sicily, if not like straight up Sicily.

• 39:53Liv Albert?

  But then simultaneously, they say that the Strait of Messina, the Strait between Sicily and mainland Italy, they say that that is where Scylla and Charybdis are. But like, riddle me this, like, how, how am I supposed to believe that the Cyclops is also with Scylla and Charybdis? Or like that close, when there's like an entire big scene of them traveling elsewhere involved? Like, that doesn't make any sense. And then also, just like, I mean, basics, the underworld has to be there. There's really bigger logical stuff like that, too. But just from a perspective of also like, the Theaetians are said to have been like covered up by a mountain completely. So like, why would we think that they're on Corfu?

• 40:36Liv Albert?

  So many of these things. And I just, I was very strong in my, the development of my Odyssey in saying that like, I don't want this map to really resemble the real world. I think it opens too many boxes and suggests too many problematic things that like definitely do not need to be suggested. And also opens the question of like, what do you call places, um, you know, when they have like ancient real names and ancient mythical names and all of this stuff. Um, and I think this, this example of placing Skilla, like I said, right, right by Sicily there, um, is just, it's problematic. I do, that is the one, like the Strait of Messina being Skilla and Carybdis is

• 41:18Liv Albert?

  the one that doesn't, I kind of like. And, and I think there's some talk about, there is like some water pressure, whatever that happens and like whirlpools have formed and stuff like that. Like, that's very cool. And it doesn't weirdly problematize things. And it doesn't like, then beg the question of like, well, how can Polyphemus be there too? So I'm like, that one's okay. But everything else is like, let's just put it on this like nonsense mythical map. Like, he also goes to the underworld, guys. And there's like, human eating giants. So, we don't need to make it weird. Saying human eating giants, I have one quick more anecdote, and then I'm going to read more of this, which is that my editor, when we were working on the Odyssey, she and I were like, we would make a lot of like fun little feminist jokes along the way because she was

• 42:02Liv Albert?

  cool. Um, her name is Rona, lovely woman. And at one of those, we were editing the like Polyphemus bit, I assume. And, and she had like not edited, I think I called them, him, him like a man eating giant. And she like left a note for me being like, I thought about editing this to be more gender inclusive, but he does only eat men.

• 42:26Liv Albert?

  I was like, hell yeah, girl. No, we're leaving it because he does only eat men. And this is not a case where, you know, man is standing in for the entirety of the human race. Polyphemus just doesn't like these shitty dudes who stole his stuff and invaded his house. Okay, I have to redo the Pandora entry because while not related to the Odyssey, it's kind of lovely, like in a way that I was not expecting for a Pandora story. This is what Pali Fatah says about Pandora's myth. "The story about Pandora is unbearable, that she having been shaped out of earth dealt out her form to others? This does not seem possible to me. Pandora was a Helene woman, quite rich. Whenever she was going out, she would put on makeup,

• 43:10Liv Albert?

  and she used earth a lot. It was she who first discovered how to apply earth for color, as many women do even now, but no one gets a name for it because it is so frequent. This was the deed, but the story was twisted into something impossible."

• 43:28Liv Albert?

  The idea that Pandora, her story, like that absolutely nothing about the whole evil and the jar and the whatever, like none of that is mentioned. It's literally just about how she's made of earth. And instead, he's like, she just invented makeup, you guys. Like, it's not that, it's not that deep. I love that. I love that. That's, that's a real claim. Like, I will give her that. That's so delightful. And it does also remind me, when I was speaking earlier about Odysseus and Ulysses and the Latin of it all, one of the best examples of that too, and something I've certainly mentioned, you know, little bits and pieces here and there, is Pandora and her jar, right?

• 44:09Liv Albert?

  So, as I'm sure all my listeners know, truthfully, Pandora had a jar, but colloquially, and like, to the most of the world where the story of Pandora is like fairly ubiquitous, just like generally known, to that wider world, it's Pandora's box, right? Ooh, don't open Pandora's box. Well, that is coming from these exact same issues of Latin. And so it is, it is purely and simply that the story of Pandora first reached English via a Latin translation of, I assume Hesiod, because Hesiod is where Pandora appears first and most in Greek.

• 44:55Liv Albert?

  And that Latin translation fucked up one word, pithos. So the word in the Greek was pithos, right? Which is that enormous jar. They're like three feet tall. They have this like very slender base. They either were meant to be in a stand or really big ones were dug into the earth and then like covered over because that would keep stuff cool. Or they were all, if they were for traveling, they were like leaned up. And that's why they had these like narrow, well, actually that's not why, but they were leaned up. So that basically, that's all to say, they did not stand up on their own.

• 45:38Liv Albert?

  They had to be leaning or on a stand or being held up. But the reason that they had these like super narrow bases was because it allowed for such a large storage vessel to be accessed while, because it was just a storage vessel. It wasn't like, it was, you know, in a back room, keeping like large amounts of stuff. And so because it had the really narrow base, uh, one person, even though it's like almost their height, could lean it easily over to pour some of the contents into like a more accessible vessel. And, and so, you know, it was like easier to pour. But all to say, it is not a sturdy pot.

• 46:20Liv Albert?

  It would very easily fall over and break or spill or whatever, which I think accounts for like, ooh, it's all her fault. She opened this box, whatever. But pithos is the word in ancient Greek. And then some Latin guy translated the Greek and got it wrong. And he wrote pixis, which is a Latin for a very small box. Like it's just completely different vessels and it is purely this, like however, thousand plus years ago, some Roman guy was like, oh, mammoth translates to pixis. And it's like, it, it doesn't actually.

• 46:57Liv Albert?

  Uh, and because, again, because English came to Greek mythology via Latin and not Greek, Pandora's box became a thing because the Latin was what people read. And then very later, classics were, classicists were like, um, it's a jar. And now we're all obnoxious and we point that out to people and I won't stop.

• 47:20Liv Albert?

  I was gonna go back and find more Odyssey, but then I found Io instead, and so I'm reading the Io one.

• 47:29Liv Albert?

  "They say that from a woman Io turned into a cow, and that she was goaded by a gadfly and traveled across the sea from Argos to Egypt. But it is improbable, and without food for so many days? The truth is as follows: Io was the daughter of the king of the Argives. The people of the city honored her by making her priestess of Argive Hera. She became pregnant, and in fear of her father and the citizens of Argos, she fled from the city. The Argives set out in search. If they had found her, they would have arrested her and held her in bonds. They say she is in flight like a maddened cow. Finally, she handed herself over to some foreign merchants and begged them to bring

• 48:14Liv Albert?

  her to Egypt. When she got there, she gave birth and the myth was embroidered."

• 48:21Liv Albert?

  Well, that one wasn't as fun.

• 48:25Liv Albert?

  Now, I mentioned earlier that there is this later mythos that tries to make Odysseus have some kind of divine parentage, right? And I think that that is coming from the development of heroes across Greek mythology and its culture. Because Odysseus is from the like preceding, like the earliest... I mean, it's hard. Because in terms of like the sourcing, Odysseus is one of the earliest heroes, but chronologically, he's one of the latest heroes. And so I think that when they are trying to navigate that, like this idea that Heracles, Perseus, Theseus, you know, by that later point, Theseus was, you know, they're all these, these more...

• 49:10Liv Albert?

  Jason even, no, maybe not Jason, he is mortal. But they're all, they all have like a semi-divine parentage in some way, right? And so I think that this is like a later attempt at giving that to Odysseus in order to kind of like raise him up alongside those other men, because from what I can tell, it's actually only in Ovid so much later that that this is coming. And that is in the form of Ovid has Odysseus himself explaining that on his mother's side, Cyleneus, which I guess is a name for Hermes in this case, is as the father of Autilochus, who is then

• 49:55Liv Albert?

  the father of Anticlia. Hermes is then his great grandfather. Anticlia is Odysseus' mother. But what I'm interested in in this and why I bring it up and am kind of using it to very poorly wrap up this episode of me just sharing Odysseus beyond the Odyssey, is that this also, and I mean, it's a very late invention. So I don't know, who knows? Maybe it's maybe something is coming from an earlier period, but by making him divine

• 50:33Liv Albert?

  on his mother's side is very interesting, because I mean, that's quite rare, obviously. And I wonder if that's a Roman attempt to then link him with Aeneas, right? Because the Romans are taking Aeneas and having him go do all of these very Odysseyan things in order to found Rome. And so, you know, maybe they're trying to connect him that way. But it also kind of inadvertently links up to a question, which I honestly can't find right now. So apologies for not having the correct name, but I, I know I read it.

• 51:15Liv Albert?

  And this is something I've talked about like here and there, but I'm so down for any excuse to talk about it again, which is why I'm doing so here. But the question was, why isn't Laertes, Odysseus?

• 51:28Liv Albert?

  Odysseus' father, king? I mean, for lots of reasons, and I think that that also leads to the secondary question of like, why isn't Telemachus king? So the first part is, why isn't Laertes king? Because he's alive and he's Odysseus' father, so presumably, he would be the king. And I mean, even even if he wasn't the king when he is coming back, or for some reason, like presumably, he would have been the king when Odysseus left, because Odysseus was 20 years younger. So his father was 20 years younger, and why isn't he the king? And then simultaneously, with Odysseus being gone for 20 years, why isn't Telemachus king? And now like a simpler answer for the Telemachus bit is, he's still young, but he's 20.

• 52:11Liv Albert?

  And like, if his dad, the king, is gone and presumed dead, one would think he could take over the kingship. I mean, fuck, England had babies as kings. Like, who cares, right? Um, I mean, it's all stupid. But

• 52:29Liv Albert?

  uh, what this links back to, it also goes along with Helen. And I wish I could name who shared this theory with me. I won't say it was mine. It's from a conversation episode. Um, probably the Bronze Age women or something in that realm. But there is a theory that this, uh, the, the, there's like a, a leftover bit of Bronze Age history, maybe, in these elements. Because it doesn't make sense in a patriarchal or like, I don't know the word for like, when specifically, like, royalty is getting passed down by the father. But, you know, in what we know is this very patriarchal world,

• 53:10Liv Albert?

  like, why is the kingship not getting passed down via the male line? And so there is this theory that

• 53:19Liv Albert?

  Kingdoms in that region may have been passed down to like by the female line of the family because Penelope does seem to hold power still in Ithaca. Like she cannot rule because she's a lady, but she maintains her status as queen despite the fact that it has been 10 years since her husband, the king has, or 20 years since her husband, the king has been seen. Why does she get to remain king or queen? Why is Salamica's not king? Why is Laertes not king? All of these things. Penelope is the queen. And in the story, we have all of these very specific moments where it's like, no, she has to pick a husband. And if she won't pick a husband, well, then her dad will do it

• 54:03Liv Albert?

  for her. But the idea is still she has to pick a husband. And so while it's not spelled out, the question is whether that is because the kingdom of Ithaca is tied not to Odysseus, but to Penelope, which does make sense for why then that would have urgency. Because otherwise, there really isn't urgency for her to pick a new husband. I mean, she doesn't have freedom, but like, her father's there, whatever. But the thing is technically, she does seem to still maintain all of this control over her queendom. So painful that we have. Anyway, and simultaneously, remember Helen is seeming to also give the kingdom of Sparta

• 54:48Liv Albert?

  to Menelaus by marrying him, right? Because it is not Menelaus who is Spartan. It is Helen. Helen is the princess of Spartan. Helen is the relative of the current king, not Menelaus. Like, Tyndareus is the king of Sparta, and he is Helen's mortal, like official father, you know, Zeus is her other father. But Tyndareus is her official father, as in giving his daughter away in marriage. And it is through Helen, through his marriage to Helen, that Menelaus becomes king of Sparta. So we have these two very explicit examples of the likelihood is that this kingdom is being passed down through the women. And so-

• 55:30Liv Albert?

  All to say, this is something I want, I mean, I would love to hear more about it. It's one of these things that's like very theoretical, I think, and it's just been mentioned to me by people, but it is such a fun thought and it really does beg the question because why? Why? Why is Telemachus not king? Why is Laertes not king? Why is Penelope being forced to choose a husband? Is it because the kingdom needs a king and she controls that in some nonspecific way because ultimately she doesn't? It's very bizarre too, which is why it kind of feels like a holdover from something before. Right? Because in the Greek patriarchal world that the Odyssey comes from,

• 56:13Liv Albert?

  like the written down Odyssey that we have today, from that world, it's crazy that a woman would have that level of control over her life. Like, that's unheard of, you know? She, when her husband was gone for that long, like if there was any point where they were like, he's dead, like she would have been sent back to her father. He owns her now.

• 56:34Liv Albert?

  And we do have that element of it, right? It's like, yeah, if she won't pick, then her dad will, but she still has the right to pick. So it's kind of this weird amalgamation of things. Like it doesn't fully fit with the patriarchal structure of the Greek world that we know, but it also doesn't not fit that, right? Like Penelope is not some all powerful queen. Helen is not some all powerful queen, like, you know? And so it's just generally like a very fascinating question of, of what is going on there? Is it a holdover from something else? Are we misinterpreting it? Like what exactly is going on there?

• 57:13Liv Albert?

  And I wanted to wrap it up with that, but then I read another question and it is linking to the Bronze Age. And also like a little bit, my answer is going to be a little bit silly. So hopefully this will be the best way of wrapping this up. This is from Guy, who

• 57:29Liv Albert?

  I mean, you're lucky I'm French-ish terribly, but historically. Um, because, because Guy wrote in parentheses, read like Guy, but written in Greek characters, which like how Greek is a word named Guy. Anyway, this is delightful. Thank you. Um, Guy said, "Listening to your awesome chat with Emily Wilson." Oh my God, I did that. Every once in a while, I'm just like, hey, do you remember when you talked to Emily Wilson? Kind of feels like a dream. Sorry. Uh, "Listening to your awesome chat with Emily Wilson." I'm so jealous. "Do you think that Odysseus claiming to be from Crete could have been an echo of the memories of the Bronze Age? Mycenae, Sparta, and Pelos were Mycenaean cities. Could they be remembering Crete as the place where the others come from?

• 58:11Liv Albert?

  Like foreigners that are very similar to the mainland Greeks, but not quite Greek." That's a very good question. I would, I think partially, potentially, yes, there's definitely an element of that. But I will say from, uh, I, as far as I understand it, the kind of acknowledged, uh, a reason, and I don't know if Emily Wilson said this, and I'm just repeating her, so apologies if not, but, um, or if I am, but I believe it's generally understood that he picks Crete because there was an ancient Greek stereotype about Crete, and it's that Cretans were liars. That might be where the word, like the English word,

• 58:55Liv Albert?

  like Cretan, as in like not a person from Crete, comes from? I don't know. But, um, no, there's apparently an ancient stereotype that people from Crete were just liars. And so it's, it's kind of just like a silly, like, there might be an echo, there might be an echo, you're right. But I think primarily it is coming from that stereotype. It's just like another silly Greek stereotype. Um, which is a good way to wrap it up, I think, because we love the ancient Greeks. But gosh, they were xenophobic and they had a lot of wild stereotypes about people they didn't always love, or felt that they, the people didn't perfectly fit into what the Greeks decided was the absolute best and only way

• 59:40Liv Albert?

  to live. It's not at all familiar

• 59:45Liv Albert?

  to today.

• 59:49Liv Albert?

  I am so

• 1:00:09Liv Albert?

  Thank you all so much. I hope that this episode comes together as something somewhat coherent. Regardless, it was fun. I really, I just think it's so interesting to look at the overall evolution because I personally, like when I am talking about the Odyssey, I, because I am an obnoxious purist, like I am talking about the Odyssey, Homer's Odyssey, period, point blank, like I'll do like a little bit. Even my book has very little that is sourced outside of the Odyssey unless I really had to. Because I think that it, the Odyssey is a singular text in a way that myth is not. The Odyssey is a text and I don't think,

• 1:00:53Liv Albert?

  it's not like it has to be preserved in that form always, but for me personally, it was like when I wanted to write Odysseus' story, I was going to write the Odyssey. It's funny thinking about that now because I'm really hoping that they're gonna sign me to do the Iliad too. And then I go, oh gosh, doing just the Iliad for kids would be very different from doing the Trojan War for kids in a way that like the Odyssey is kind of singular and like insular in that way that the, that the war is not. But all to say, I think that this kind of expansion, the evolution of the myth says so much about how the ancient

• 1:01:34Liv Albert?

  people after the Odyssey were understanding things, were evolving, how everything just changes and, and sort of moves. All of this is a living, breathing thing. I mean, even to today, like Greek mythology is living and breathing and constantly up for interpretation and growth and nuance and

• 1:02:01Liv Albert?

  Oh, it's why I just love endlessly reading the ancient sources. And it's why I'm working on a new nonfiction book that I'm really, I'm really hopeful about. And I'll drop just one word right now.

• 1:02:18Liv Albert?

  Nymphs. Stay tuned, because I would also like to be pulling, like, listener insights in order for me to sort of work through exactly what I'm doing here. So stay tuned. I would like to talk to you all about nymphs. I don't necessarily want to say the word nymphs too many times to this microphone, so we'll see. But I want to talk to you all about them. But for now, that is our expansion on Odysseus and the characters of the Odyssey, or just generally the evolution of these ideas from the Odyssey. I'm going to be back on Friday with a rereading

• 1:03:00Liv Albert?

  of books 12 and 13 of the Odyssey. So you can stay tuned for that. I'm so excited. And I will also be sharing with you all a bit, a clip, a, I don't even know. I'm so excited. A chunk of my audiobook reading of The Odyssey: A Modern Retelling. That will be popping into your feeds very soon, once I just select what bit I want to show you, because I'm so excited. I'm so excited. And yeah, if you haven't already, please order and/or preorder my children's retelling of the Odyssey, which is absolutely age appropriate for everyone. It just happens to have been written with nine to 12 year olds in mind.

• 1:03:44Liv Albert?

  You can get it wherever books are sold, or find a link in this episode's description. If you are in London, I'm gonna be there on Thursday. Do you want to come celebrate my book with me? I'm gonna go to Harry Styles on Friday, which is like, I think that's a great way to spend a couple of days, right? Thursday, you're gonna, I'm gonna talk about Odysseus in a Waterstones bookstore, fulfilling a life goal that I really cannot express, like, the, the,

• 1:04:14Liv Albert?

  like, the importance of.

• 1:04:17Liv Albert?

  And then I'm gonna go watch Harry Styles. It's gonna be adorable. So if you are in London, you can't come with me to Harry Styles, though if you're going anyway, enjoy. God, it's gonna be fun. But you can come on Thursday to the Waterstones by the O2 Center. There's maybe a better description. I don't know. You can find the link all over or in the episode's description. I will be chatting at that Waterstones with Bea Fitzgerald, author of so many mythological retellings. Bea is a delight. She is going to bring the color that the Odyssey needs. And let's be honest, I'll probably be wearing black because I am who I am. But the book is so colorful. It's so Mediterranean. And I am just so excited to hear what you all think of it.

• 1:05:00Liv Albert?

  Because again, dreams, dreams coming true. Dreams coming true. Hey, if you aren't already and you couldn't afford to, you should maybe think about being a patron. You'll get ad-free episodes and you'll also help us keep the show going. Patreon.com/MythsBaby. Let's talk about Myths Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pangwisch is the Hermes to my Olympians. We are picking back up, we were slacking, I'm sorry. We are picking back up Hermes Historia episodes for the Patreon. We just did one chatting about epithets in Homer. There are so many and they're delightful. It's a lot of Michaela and I pronouncing for good or bad ancient Greek and then picking out the words we know and reading them to each other

• 1:05:43Liv Albert?

  and discussing how these epithets work. You know, an epithet is like Slayer of Argos, right? From the last episode and all the questions in The Odyssey, Hermes Slayer of Argos, Slayer of Argos is his epithet. And so we talked all about that in our latest Patreon episode, which again, you can find it Patreon.com/MythsBaby. You can get ad-free everything along with our really delightful Patreon community of nerds for just $5 a month. And then above that, you can get extras if you are so inclined. But in all cases, we are just really, really appreciative, especially in this changing world when it comes to finances.

• 1:06:28Liv Albert?

  Because I'm not stopping this, but I but I also do need money in order to keep it going. So I don't know if you can help, that'd be chill. And I love you all. I am Liv and I love this shit so much. I love you all so much. Hey, I wrote The Odyssey and it's like out now and then also going to be out soon. And it's really cool.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or Tech in Steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 1:08:35Speaker 05

  Enemy of My Dreams by Jenny Williamson is a historical romance novel set in the time of the late Roman Empire, where Alaric, a brutal Gothic warlord, and Julia, a Roman princess, with a love of good wine, team up to take down Rome.

• 1:08:53Speaker 06

  The much awaited sequel Game of Thieves comes out December 8th. In this sequel, Julia and Alaric must overcome centuries of conflict to work together, or the turbulent riptides of rebellion and the demons of their past will tear them apart.

• 1:09:06Speaker 05

  And now, for a limited time, when you preorder Game of Thieves through Burning Pages Bookstore, you'll get a signed book plate and a free art print of one of Jenny's favorite spicy scenes from across the series.

• 1:09:20Speaker 06

  Get this amazing artwork only from Burning Pages at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves. Don't wait. Order your copy from Burning Pages today at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves.