643. Rome’s Greatest Enemy: Carthage Destroyed (Part 4)

Three decades after the defeat of Hannibal, how had the Roman Empire managed to conquer vast swathes of the known world? Why did the predatory eyes of this terrifying behemoth turn once more to Carthage? And, could this mighty city defy the odds and repel Rome one last time…? Join Tom and Dominic as they reach the climactic, final phase of the Punic Wars; the greatest military struggle of all ancient history. _______ To hear our previous series on the rise of Carthage, Hannibal, and the battle of Cannae, go to episodes: 421, 422, 423, 424, 568, 569, 570, 571. _______ Join The Rest Is History Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to every series and live show tickets, a members-only newsletter, discounted books from the show, and access to our private Discord chatroom. Sign up directly at ⁠⁠the⁠restishistory.com⁠⁠⁠ For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to ⁠⁠www.goalhanger.com⁠ _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Video Editors: Jack Meek + Harry Swan Social Producer: Harry Balden Producers: Tabby Syrett & Aaliyah Akude Executive Producer: Dom Johnson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Tom Holland?

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• 0:16Dominic Sandbrook?

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• 0:42Tom Holland?

  So buy your car online on AutoTrader, really.

• 0:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by the Gates Foundation. We have touched on the fall of the Roman Empire a few times on this show, haven't we? But what our listeners may not know is that among the causes that historians talk about, it's not just barbarian invasions, there's also talk of a disease which people call Roman fever, which I believe we know now as malaria.

• 1:10Tom Holland?

  For thousands of years, humanity was defenseless against it. But thankfully, we live in a time of incredible ingenuity and American scientists and partners around the world are fighting back with support from the Gates Foundation.

• 1:26Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes, so they're creating a new generation of bed nets that kill up to 90% of mosquitoes. That leads to a 50% drop in malaria, saving lives and protecting vulnerable communities. The Gates Foundation, partners of human potential. Search gatesfoundation.org/mosquito to learn more.

• 1:50Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. We obviously love history here. It's always a treat to make a new discovery, especially in unexpected ways.

• 2:00Tom Holland?

  Which is exactly what happens on TikTok. Like, you know coffee, you make it, add milk, drink it, nothing more.

• 2:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  Except. Except when you hop on TikTok, you don't just learn how to make an authentic cappuccino. You can also discover videos about how in the seventeen hundreds, people would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it. And suddenly you're imagining how people lived, drank, socialised. Makes you wonder what will baffle historians about us. And that's the joy of TikTok. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Visit tiktok.com forward slash discover more.

• 3:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  Who has words to capture that night's disaster? Tell that slaughter. What tears could match our torments now? An ancient city is falling, a power that ruled for ages now in ruins. Everywhere lie the motionless bodies of the dead, strewn in her streets, her homes and the gods' shrines all over now. Devouring fire whipped by the winds goes churning into the rooftops, flames surging over them, scorching blasts raging up the sky. Treasure hauled from burning temples, the sacramental tables, bowls of solid gold and the holy robes seized from every quarter.

• 3:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  The enemy piling high, the plunder. Children and trembling mothers rounded up in a long, endless line. So that was the greatest of all Roman poets, Virgil. And he was writing almost two centuries after Hannibal's Great War against the Romans, the subject of this epic series. And a century or so after the final defeat of one of the protagonists in this story, the Mediterranean city of Carthage. And Tom, in that poem, the Aeneid, which is translated there by Robert Fagles, Virgil is taking us back, isn't he, to the legendary beginnings of Carthage. So shrouded in myth, the story of its foundation by the Phoenician queen.

• 4:29Dominic Sandbrook?

  Dido and the colonists from Phoenicia are labouring to build the new city. They're raising the walls, they're building the palaces and temples, the harbours that the Romans will later destroy. And at this point, this bedraggled group of refugees who've been shipwrecked off the African coast turn up, and these people are Trojans.

• 4:50Tom Holland?

  They are. So they are, as you say, refugees from the sack of Troy by the Greeks. And the man speaking the lines that you you read so powerfully is their leader, a prince called Aeneas, who is the son of Venus, the goddess of love and beauty. And Aeneas, in that passage, is describing what it had been like to live through the destruction of Troy, to watch its topless towers consumed by fire. And he is giving this account at a great feast that has been held in his honour by Dido, because she has fallen in love with Aeneas. And we talked about this in the very first episode that we did on Carthage, I mean, about

• 5:34Tom Holland?

  400 years ago. Actually, I think it was episode 421. And people who listen to that may remember what happens next after this feast, because Aeneas and Dido go out hunting, there's a storm, they take shelter in a cave, and while they're in the cave, the earth moves. And Dido, although not Aeneas, assumes from this point on that they are now man and wife. The problem for Dido is that Aeneas has this destiny that has been plotted out for him by the gods, and specifically by Jupiter, the king of the gods. And this destiny is that Aeneas has to sail to Italy and found a town there that in due course will result in the founding of Rome.

• 6:20Tom Holland?

  And so Jupiter sends Mercury, the messenger of the gods, down to Aeneas and says, you know, stop hanging around with this Carthaginian woman, get on, go and fan Rome. And Aeneas is very obedient to the will of the gods. And so he dumps Dido and he sails away from Carthage for Italy. And Dido is so distraught at being portrayed like this that she stabs herself to death with Aeneas's sword, but not before she has called for her descendants to nurture an undying hatred for the descendants of Aeneas.

• 6:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  Shore clash with shore, sea against sea and sword against sword. This is my curse. War between all our peoples, all their children. Endless war. That's her curse, isn't it? And that's how it all begins. So she summons a demon to rise up from her bones, an avenger still unknown, to stalk the descendants of Aeneas and to hunt them down with fire and iron. And Tom, who is this demon?

• 7:22Tom Holland?

  Well, I mean, every Roman reading the Aeneid when it came out in the age of Augustus knew exactly who was meant. It was Hannibal, Hannibal Barker, that great military genius whose career we've been describing in our previous episodes, who for almost two decades had indeed fought the Romans with fire and iron. Now Hannibal, as we heard in our last episode, ends up this hunted fugitive, this defeated fugitive, kills himself in 183 B.C. But it's the measure of the shock he had given Rome and of the terror that he had inspired in Roman hearts that still, more than a century and a half after his death, in the age of

• 8:05Tom Holland?

  Augustus, you know, when the Roman Empire stands splendid and without a conceivable rival on the face of the planet, Hannibal continues to haunt the memory of the Romans. And so I think it's not hard to imagine what a bogeyman he must have seemed to Romans who had lived through his invasion of Italy and who were born in the generation or two after the great war that he had prosecuted against the Romans.

• 8:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  So that means that even though Carthage has been defeated and forced to accept a punitive peace deal.

• 8:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  The memory of Hannibal and of Carthage's assault on Italy means that for the Romans, in their decades after victory, Carthage remains the supreme enemy. You know, is that, would I be going too far to say there's still a sense of unfinished business for the Romans?

• 8:59Tom Holland?

  Completely, completely. Listeners may remember that in our previous series, we talked about Hannibal's preparations for the invasion of Italy in 218. And he has a dream. And in that dream, he sees a giant serpent that is following in his wake as he invades Italy. And this serpent, quote, "causing massive destruction to trees and bushes, a deafening thunderstorm following in its wake." And a god then explains to him what this serpent is. This serpent is Hannibal himself. And so the dream is pretending what the Romans called the vastatio Italia, the destruction of Italy. And that is exactly

• 9:42Tom Holland?

  what Hannibal had inflicted on Italy. So monstrous casualty figures, hundreds of thousands of people dead, fields, vineyards, orchards, going up in flames, year after year after year. And nothing like it had remotely been experienced by the Romans or the peoples of Italy. You know, for two or three generations, there hadn't been anything like this. And today, there is considerable debate among historians about how bad the damage inflicted by Hannibal on Italy actually was. So opinions range from completely apocalyptic to merely, you know, pretty devastating.

• 10:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 10:22Tom Holland?

  But however bad it was, what mattered was that the Romans in the wake of Hannibal's war remembered it as complete devastation. So to quote Simon Hornblower on this, I mean, he's absolutely right. "The trauma of Hannibal's lengthy presence, however great or small the actual damage he wrought, will not have been easily forgotten. To that extent, Hannibal's dream may have been a true prophecy. Perceptions are a kind of reality." I mean, we know that throughout history.

• 10:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  And the Romans, I mean, the damage that the Carthage have inflicted is so deeply embedded in the Roman imagination. So the Romans come to talk about the Carthaginians. They use these expressions, punica fides, punica fraus. The idea that the Carthaginians are the embodiments, that almost the linguistic embodiments of cruelty and deceit and infidelity and fraud and all of these kinds of things. And the Carthaginians come to assume this almost kind of demonic place in the Roman imagination.

• 11:18Tom Holland?

  Yeah, I mean, I think if you if you think about how the British viewed the Germans in the wake of the First World War and even more the Second World War. There is something of that, the way that the Romans view the Carthaginians. And people who've listened to this series may well feel that this is a bit rich because the Romans as well have been known to display cruelty and deceit and treachery and so on. But that doesn't really matter because the Romans felt what they felt. And this wasn't just a kind of widespread loathing of the Carthaginians, but something more, a kind of biding fear that was ultimately irrational.

• 11:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, irrational because the Carthaginians had been completely beaten.

• 12:02Tom Holland?

  Yeah, you know, completely smashed. It is so clear that, you know, the days of Carthage as a great power are finished because the terms that the Romans had imposed on Carthage in the wake of the defeat of Hannibal had been intended to cripple her forever. So just to remind listeners of what those terms were. A devastating indemnity payable in instalments over the course of 50 years, designed to kneecap Carthage's economy. The loss of all her overseas territories. Carthage had ruled a great empire, you know, Sicily, Spain, whatever, all gone. Once she had been the greatest naval power in the Western Mediterranean, her fleet is now limited to 10 warships.

• 12:44Tom Holland?

  And her foreign policy is directly under the control of Rome, which means that she cannot go to war without Roman permission.

• 12:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  So at the same time that the Romans have done that, so they've, Carthage has been kneecapped by all this, but on the western flank of Carthage, so that's, we're still in North Africa, we've got this character that we talked about before, Massinis, who is Numidian, and he's an old pal of Scipio Africanus, and he has basically been set up as a counterbalance to the Carthaginians, hasn't he? So he's a great pal of the Romans, he is constantly kind of biting off bits of Carthage's sort of hinterlands, so they're kind of, I don't know, the olive groves of North Africa and so on.

• 13:29Tom Holland?

  Yeah, he's kind of nibbling away at them all the time.

• 13:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, and he's, there were constant kind of border disputes and whatnot, and basically the Numidians are, they're eroding Carthage's heartland year on year.

• 13:42Tom Holland?

  Yeah, and for Massinis, I mean, this is the servant turning on the master, because the Numidians had been a subject to Carthage, and so by salami slicing Carthage's territory, I mean, he's getting his own back on, you know, the old imperial mistress.

• 13:58Dominic Sandbrook?

  Hmm.

• 13:58Tom Holland?

  And so the poor Carthaginians, they can't really do anything about this because they're not allowed to fight Massinis off, and so all they can really do is send embassies to Rome complaining about these encroachments by the Numidians. But obviously, Massinis, you know, he's, he's an ally of the Roman people, he can send embassies of his own and be assured of getting heard. So in 171, for instance, Carthaginians have gone to Rome to complain, Massinis sends his own son. And this son of Massinis's is, he knows exactly how to play the Romans, so he's endlessly going on about how the Carthaginians are treacherous and deceitful, beware of punic deceit, all this kind of stuff. And so the Carthaginians don't get justice.

• 14:43Tom Holland?

  And the Romans ignore Carthaginian complaints, not just because they are pro-Numidian, but also to reiterate, because they are genuinely fearful that Carthage might make a comeback. And so they feel that she has to, you know, her territory has to constantly be eroded. But this is mad. I mean, there's no prospect of Carthage coming back.

• 15:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, to give people a sense of the map, so we're three decades on after the defeat of Hannibal, and the Romans' power is spreading across the Mediterranean. So to give the example of Spain, we talked a lot about Spain. Spain, its mineral wealth, have been so important to Carthaginian power. But the Romans have basically formalized their control of the coastal bits of Spain they've conquered from Carthage. They've organized them into provinces. They're pushing inland in North Africa. So we've obviously talked about Numidia. Numidia is basically a Roman client state. I mean, in many ways, Carthage is a Roman client state as well, because it's subject to all the demands of the peace treaty. We talked last time about Greece. You know, we're getting into the kind of remnants of Alexander

• 15:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  the Great's empire now. So in Greece, the Romans have been launching these devastating strikes. They've humbled the heirs of Alexander, the Macedonian kings. We talked about that last time. The legions have defeated the Macedonian phalanx. And although the Romans are not ruling Macedonia or Greece directly, Roman primacy, Roman control is basically acknowledged, isn't it, throughout Greece?

• 16:11Tom Holland?

  Yeah. And I think the Romans feel that if their strategic demands require the Greeks to knuckle down and kind of surrender chunks of territory or autonomy or whatever, then they have to do it. And there's perhaps a slight element of Donald Trump's attitude to Greenland about all this. And increasingly, the more that

• 16:33Tom Holland?

  Greece and the Balkans kind of have to do what the Romans say. The Romans decide, well, there's no point in allowing the Macedonians to have any autonomy at all. I mean, we might as well snuff that out. So in June 168, the legions once again meet with a Macedonian phalanx. And it's fought in a great battle on the Macedonian coast, a place called Pidna. And the guy in command of the Roman legions at this battle is called Imelius Paulus. And if that sounds familiar, then it's because he is the son of the Imelius Paulus, who had died at Cannae, Hannibal's great victory. And Imelius Paulus at Pidna, he confessed that the advance of the Macedonian phalanx

• 17:16Tom Holland?

  was such a terrifying sight that he had briefly dreaded that he might suffer a defeat similar to that suffered by his father. But in the event, he wins this spectacular, utterly crushing victory. So the legionaries, you know, they're much more flexible, much more mobile, and they're able to infiltrate the phalanx through gaps that open up in its ranks. And then it's just a massacre. The people in the phalanx have these huge, long spears, so they're hapless against the gladius, the stabbing sword that the Romans are using. And the whole battlefield just becomes this great sea of blood and viscera. All their guts are kind of, you know, the Macedonian guts are spilling out. The Macedonian king is captured, he's deposed,

• 17:58Tom Holland?

  and ends up being led through the streets of Rome in Paulus's triumph. And Macedon itself, the monarchy, is abolished. And it is divided up into these kind of four petty cantons under dodgy little republics. And this is obviously a recipe for instability, but that for the Romans is precisely the point. You know, they're not there to administer direct rule, but what they do want is Macedon. Left both submissive and impotent, and that is what, you know, these reforms do.

• 18:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  And then the same thing goes for other parts of the southern Balkans, doesn't it? So Eperus, Eperus is sacked, that's in the west, that's towards sort of northern, northwestern Greece, Albania. Pallas takes more than 100,000 slaves there. And then in Greece itself, they basically take a thousand sort of bigwigs hostage from various cities. They take them all back to Italy. And these guys had been seen as too pro Macedonian, too independent minded. And Tom, you've got a nice analogy here. We should share your analogy with us.

• 19:03Tom Holland?

  Yeah, well, to pursue the Donald Trump analogy, it's as though he were to invade Europe and and take back as hostages, you know, a raft of Eurocrats from Brussels, regulators of American social media companies, and obviously the director general of the BBC. And they would all be taken back to Washington and kept as hostages.

• 19:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Are there any people from the current government you'd like to see taken as hostages by Delta Force back to Washington?

• 19:26Tom Holland?

  Surely there must be.

• 19:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  No comment.

• 19:29Tom Holland?

  So all these Greek hostages are taken back. And among them is a Greek from Arcadia, whose name we have been mentioning quite a lot throughout this series. And that is Polybius, who will become the great historian of Rome's rise to dominance in the Mediterranean. And the theme of Polybius's history, he kind of, he sets it out. It's how the affairs of Italy and of Africa came to be interwoven with those of Asia and of Greece. And all things point in concert to a single end. And that single end is the establishment of a Roman imperium, a Roman empire over the Mediterranean. And Polybius would end up spending

• 20:09Tom Holland?

  17 years as a detainee in Rome. And so this is how he came by his, you know, incredible familiarity with Roman politics, Roman constitutional arrangements, Roman affairs. And he is able to interview veterans of the war against Hannibal, people who had taken leading roles in that war. But in the long run, the most useful contact that Polybius makes in Rome isn't a kind of veteran of the war against Hannibal, but this guy's still in his teens, he's very precocious, very brilliant, and has an absolutely kind of glittering pedigree. Because this man is the son of the Imelius Paulus, who had won at Pidna, so he's therefore

• 20:52Tom Holland?

  the grandson of the Imelius Paulus who had died at Canai. He is also the adoptive grandson of Scipio Africanus, the man who had defeated Hannibal. And in Rome, adoption is taken very seriously. So that means that he is basically seen by the Romans as the grandson of Scipio Africanus. Because he is the son of Imelius Paulus, he's called Emilianus, so Scipio Emilianus. And, you know, he is a completely worthy grandson of the great conqueror of Hannibal. When he was only 17, he had fought with his father at Pidna, covered himself in glory. He'd then gone to Spain. He had won a military crown, so basically the equivalent of a Victoria Cross, by being

• 21:35Tom Holland?

  the first over the wall of an enemy city. At the same time, like Scipio Africanus, he is a great enthusiast for Greek culture, a great scholar. And actually, this is how he'd come into contact with Polybius, through the loan of some books and general literary chat. So Scipio Emilianus and Polybius, it's like you and Tabby will be doing on your forthcoming podcast.

• 22:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  Who's Tabby in that analogy? I'm Scipio Emilianus, right?

• 22:04Tom Holland?

  Well, Scipio Emilianus is much younger, so it's probably Tabby.

• 22:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, but it's about charisma, isn't it?

• 22:07Tom Holland?

  You are this Greek hostage.

• 22:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, absolutely not. Right, let's get back to Carthage. So Scipio Emilianus, the Dominic Sandbrook of Roman history.

• 22:18Tom Holland?

  The Tabby Syrett of the rest of history.

• 22:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  What does he make of Carthage? Because he's the adoptive grandson of the bloke who basically defeated it. So does he feel that he has unfinished business with Carthage? Does he want to do the same?

• 22:31Tom Holland?

  Actually, it seems not. I think that Scipio Africanus...

• 22:38Tom Holland?

  Because he was the guy who had forced terms on the Carthaginians and got them to accept these terms, he then felt a certain kind of responsibility towards Carthage because it's a bit like a patron with a client. That is a relationship that is very important to the Roman aristocracy. And I think that Scipio Africanus, you know, he took this seriously. So for instance, for as long as Hannibal was in Carthage, Scipio Africanus back in Rome had had Hannibal's back. And I think all the kind of the various members of Scipio's dynasty, they share in this obligation. So we can see this from Polybius, who is obviously very influenced by what the Scipio dynasty think. So he's always describing how the Carthaginians are going to Rome

• 23:22Tom Holland?

  to complain about Massanissa slicing off bits of their territory. And Polybius, you know, I mean, he emphasizes that these complaints are just. And presumably in saying that, he is picking up on the opinion of his Scipionic patrons. But I think it's fair to say that this in Rome is a minority position. And there is one person in particular who views any kind of attempt to water down the harshness with which Carthage is treated as essentially a form of treason. And this is the old enemy of Scipio Africanus, who again, we met in the last episode, Marcus Porcius Cato.

• 24:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 24:02Tom Holland?

  Who by this point, he's just turned 80, but he is as flinty and as hardcore as ever. So that kind of, you know, that ginger hair that he had has gone. He's now terrifyingly bald and got lots of crow feet and jowls. He's a terrifying man.

• 24:20Dominic Sandbrook?

  I hate him. I find Cato such an unpleasant person.

• 24:23Tom Holland?

  Well, I think there are good reasons for hating him, as we will see as this episode progresses.

• 24:29Dominic Sandbrook?

  So Cato was sent, he goes to Carthage, I mean of all people to go, he goes to Carthage in 152, doesn't he, to investigate yet another spat between the Carthaginians and the Numidians, Massenisa.

• 24:42Tom Holland?

  Massenisa by this point is also very old, it should just be said.

• 24:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  And when Cato gets to Carthage, he is horrified by what he sees, because basically, he had assumed that the Carthaginians would be living like dogs in the gutter, their city in ruins, but actually the Carthaginians, fair play to them, they've dragged themselves back upright and the city is actually doing quite well again, and Cato doesn't like this at all.

• 25:05Tom Holland?

  They don't have an empire to run, they don't have wars to fight, and so the Carthaginians have been able to focus all their energies on getting rich. So again, I mean to pursue another analogy, it's a bit like West Germany after the Second World War.

• 25:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 25:17Tom Holland?

  They're not allowed to have an army or anything, so they can just focus on kind of inventing televisions and stuff.

• 25:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  That old Carthage-Bon parallel.

• 25:27Tom Holland?

  So the Carthaginians are actually doing very well, and despite the attempts of the Romans to kneecap its economy, the economy is booming. They have this hinterland, the Numidians may be snipping bits off, but Carthage still controls most of it. It's very fertile, very rich. Carthage has massive grain silos. It's essentially become the breadbasket of the Western Mediterranean, which is a role that it will play throughout the history, subsequent history of the Roman Empire. They have upgraded their harbors and they have this inner dockyard, which has berths for 170 ships. And Cato is obviously very suspicious of this. Why do they need berths for 170 ships? And he also notices storehouses in which

• 26:10Tom Holland?

  there are piled great mounds of timber. And so he's thinking, you know, is this timber for the construction of merchant shipping, or are the Carthaginians planning to reactivate a warfleet? And Cato being Cato, he obviously assumes the worst, and he returns to Rome convinced that the Carthaginians are preparing for vengeance. And he stands before the Senate, and he shakes out the folds of his toga, and from his toga there drops a fig. Cato bends down, he holds it up, and he invites his fellow senators to admire it. It's very plump, it's very beautiful, it's clearly still very fresh.

• 26:57Tom Holland?

  And Cato then reveals that this fig had come from Carthage, as he points out, a mere three day sail from Rome. And his message is twofold. Firstly, Carthage is back as a great power.

• 27:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Tom Holland?

  But secondly, suppose a third Punic war were to be launched, a war of annihilation against Carthage, then all those lands in North Africa currently ruled by Carthage would become Rome's.

• 27:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  And so from that point onwards, whenever Cato stands up in the Senate and he gives a speech, he ends every speech the same way, doesn't he? He makes the same urgent, sort of resounding pronouncement. What is more, I mean, it must be extremely boring for his listeners that he says the same thing every time. Anyway, he says, what is more, I think that Carthage must be destroyed.

• 27:56Tom Holland?

  I mean, Dominic, you say it must be boring for his listeners. I don't think so at all. His speeches are not necessarily about Carthage.

• 28:03Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 28:03Tom Holland?

  But he always makes this comment. And so you're listening to it and you're kind of waiting for it.

• 28:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  How's he gonna get Carthage in again?

• 28:09Tom Holland?

  He'll just mention it willy nilly, but it is a kind of drumbeat, isn't it? And if there's one thing the Romans love, it's a drumbeat of war. So I think he is essentially kind of, you know, provoking a war fever. And this kind of statement that he's making at the end of every speech, what is more, I think that Carthage must be destroyed, abbreviated, it's become one of the most notorious of all Latin aphorisms, Carthago delenda est. Carthage must be destroyed.

• 28:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  So the scene is set for the final confrontation and the annihilation of Carthage. Come back after the break for this very sad story.

• 28:52Dominic Sandbrook?

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• 29:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Tom, as you know, I spend all my time working. And in a dream world, I would clone a sort of Tom Holland, who would do all the work for me. But sadly, technology has not advanced to that point. If it did, I wish there was a recruiting company that I could use to hire that clone for me. Well, Dominic, you are in luck because if you are hiring, then ZipRecruiter is the great time saver. You can try it free at ziprecruiter.com/history. It shows you qualified candidates almost instantly. So save time with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter

• 30:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/history. That's ziprecruiter.com/history. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 30:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is supported by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Now, history's biggest leaps started as hard questions that people didn't want asked. Yeah, there's a classic example of that at the end of the 15th century. And the hard question in particular was, what is out there beyond the Atlantic Ocean to the west? And as you will know, the man who found the answer to that question was the explorer Christopher Columbus. And he realises, or rather, everybody else realises, that there is a vast continent out there. And it is, of course, the Americas. So, you know, Anthropic knows the importance of questions. And it's why Anthropic is founded on one hard question above all. How can we ensure that the AI revolution really goes well for ordinary people?

• 31:19Tom Holland?

  So they asked over a hundred thousand people, and what came back wasn't just fear. There was hope as well. People wanted to know, will cancer ever be cured? Can kids have a better future? It turns out that there is hope in hard questions.

• 31:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  Ask yours at claude.ai slash rest is history and keep thinking.

• 31:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  Welcome back to The Rest Is History. The year is 152 B.C. And Cato, this crabby, miserable old man of Roman politics, who everybody admires, or at least lots of people admire, for his sort of republican austerity and his ostentatious performative puritanical morality. He is now calling for the total destruction of Carthage. Tom, you've got the word genocide in the notes. Presumably, he's not calling for the extermination of every last Carthaginian. It's the city rather than the people, or I've got that wrong.

• 32:19Tom Holland?

  I think if you're saying destroy a city, you are effectively saying destroy a people. To destroy the mother city of a people effectively is to destroy a people. So I think it's, I mean, it's anachronistic, but I think there is that element in it. And I think that people should be aware of what is being planned, the scale of what is being planned. I mean, it is horrific.

• 32:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  And some of the Romans think it's horrific, right?

• 32:43Tom Holland?

  Absolutely. There are senators in Rome who oppose Cato. And of course, many of these belong to the dynasty of Scipio Africanus. And one of them, a guy called Scipio Nasica, he's coined his own catchphrase to counter Cato's. So his is, "Cthago savander est. Carthage must be preserved." Now, listeners may be wondering, what's his motivation in coming up with this catchphrase? Is it because he has a sense of humanity, a concern for human rights? Is it from the depths of his kindness? It is not. A concern with being kind does not really seem to have been a factor.

• 33:26Tom Holland?

  Those who are arguing against a war of annihilation against Carthage, their motivations, we're told by a Greek historian writing a century later, fundamentally is that Rome needs a worthy enemy. Because having Carthage as this great bogey on their doorstep keeps them honest, it keeps them on their toes. And the worry is that if you destroy Carthage, then the Romans may become decadent and self-indulgent and may end up kind of turning on themselves if they don't have to guard against an outside enemy. All of which, of course,

• 34:08Tom Holland?

  in a sense, does happen. And so it's more than possible that that Greek historian is writing with the benefit of hindsight. I mean, you know, not necessarily, but possible. And I do think it's clear that at the time, the chief source of anxiety for Romans in the Senate, listening to Cato push for this war of annihilation, is actually that they're worried about breaking the treaty that they'd signed with Carthage. Because this will then offend the gods and bring down divine anger on the head of their city. Because the Romans, they saw themselves as being the most devout of peoples and certainly they were kind of very

• 34:49Tom Holland?

  legalistic. So even when they are attacking Macedonian kings or taking Greek bigwigs hostage, they always needed to feel that they were legally justified in what they were doing. They're not, as they see it, doing anything that is unmerited or unprovoked. They always have to feel that the gods are on their side. And so this is what large numbers in the Senate feel they need with regard to Carthage. They can't attack Carthage without a chasis belai. And fortunately for them,

• 35:23Tom Holland?

  They have one on hand because this is Massinisus.

• 35:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right, so this bloke has been constantly having his border skirmishes with the Carthaginians and attacking their farmland and snatching their, you know, their olive groves or whatever. But if you're Cato or one of the war hawks in Rome, isn't this the perfect opportunity? He's like the equivalent of the people in Donetsk and Luhansk in eastern Ukraine, who Vladimir Putin used as a pretext basically for his war in Ukraine.

• 35:50Tom Holland?

  Yes, and so Massinisus, by now in his late eighties, is as acquisitive as ever. And so his men continue to launch attacks on farms and estates in Carthage's rural hinterland with the aim of appropriating them. And in Carthage, there is now total despair that Rome will ever reign Massinisus in. And this despair brings new leaders to power who are much more hawkish than the previous generation. And these are men who are saying, well, look, we need a more assertive foreign policy. We, you know, we cannot go on like this. So in 151, ignoring the prescriptions of the treaty that they had signed with Rome back

• 36:33Tom Holland?

  in 201, the Carthaginians go to war with Massinisus. They do not have the permission of the Romans to do this. And the result for the Carthaginians unfortunately is disaster. So Massinisus, he's, he's now basically 90, but he's still in the saddle. He fights the Carthaginian army to a standstill near a town called Oroscopa. And he isolates them on a hill. They don't have any water, so they have no option but to surrender and submit to humiliating terms, which include again a kind of massive indemnity, which is bad enough. But the real disaster is the open goal, obviously, that the Carthaginians have now given to the war party in Rome.

• 37:16Tom Holland?

  Because hawks there can now argue that Carthage is in breach of her treaty obligations and that therefore if the Romans attack Carthage, the gods will be backing them. So if that's everything they need.

• 37:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  So now the Romans have their opportunity to launch their strike. And what is more, there are financial motives, aren't there? Because in 151...

• 37:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  The Carthaginians have paid off the very last instalment, basically of their reparations, their war indemnity. So there's going to be no more money coming to Rome from Carthage. If the Romans want the Carthaginian wealth, they have to go and seize it. So they've both got the diplomatic opportunity because of this business with Massanissa, but also now there is a very big financial incentive for greedy people in Rome to urge a war with Carthage. It's like these people who say, well, it's like, I don't know, Saddam Hussein is a bad man and there's a lot of oil in Iraq, you know, let's go in.

• 38:13Tom Holland?

  Yeah, exactly. And so in 150, the Romans begin to mobilise for an invasion of Africa. And back in Carthage, understandably, the news of this throws the entire city into panic. And so they desperately try to appease the Romans. And they do this, first of all, by condemning the general who'd been defeated at Oroscopa to death. And it will not surprise regular listeners to this series to learn that the name of this general is, of course, Hasdrubal, yet another, yet another Hasdrubal. And then the Carthaginians send an embassy to Rome, basically to beg for mercy. And when they arrive there, they're appalled to discover that this Roman task force has already left and is in Sicily, so just across

• 38:56Tom Holland?

  the sea from Carthage. And they also find Cato on absolutely top form. So he gives a kind of zinger of a speech. What people can't be trusted to keep their treaties? The Carthaginians. What people are inveterate warmongers notorious for their cruelty? The Carthaginians. What people left Italy a smouldering wasteland? The Carthaginians. So still that harping on all the destruction that Hannibal had brought to Italy. And when the Carthaginian envoys, you know, they beg to know, how can we make amends? I mean, what can we do? They receive this very menacingly Delphic response by satisfying the Roman people. But the Senate does not specify how this satisfaction can be obtained.

• 39:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  So let's take us to the next year, 12 months on. The Romans have landed in North Africa. They have established their base camp 30 miles north west of Carthage. The Carthaginians send envoys to try and negotiate with the Romans. And what happens next?

• 40:01Tom Holland?

  Well, they they arrive at the Roman camp and as they approach, there's this kind of great deafening blast of trumpets. And then they enter the camp and they are led past the massed ranks of the legions who are all drawn drawn up and who are totally silent. I mean, it must have been terrifying. Ahead of them are the two consuls sat down on a podium and the Carthaginian envoys are brought before the consuls and they start stammering, trying to make their excuses, but all these excuses are dismissed. And then one of the consuls, Lucius Marcius, sent Serenus, he informs the envoys that

• 40:40Tom Holland?

  there will be no more negotiations until Carthage has handed over all the weapons in the city, all the armour, all the war machines. And so the envoys go back to Carthage and shortly afterwards, great wagon loads of weapons and armour kind rumbling up to the Roman camp and also in their train, over 2,000 catapults. So these are all handed over to the Romans. And then the envoys come back and they stand in front of the consuls again. And now, at last, the terms are delivered and I will quote them, "Bear bravely the remaining commands of the Roman Senate," the envoys are told. "You must evacuate your city and surrender it to us. You will be allowed to settle where you please, within

• 41:24Tom Holland?

  the limits of your own territory, provided that it is at least 10 miles from the sea. As for us, we are resolved to level Carthage to the ground."

• 41:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  Imagine the Carthaginian envoys listening to that. I mean, terrifying. And of course, I mean, what can they do? There's no way that the Carthaginians can possibly accept this, you would think.

• 41:45Tom Holland?

  I mean, just to emphasise for people, talked about how how people are identified with their mother city. And in a sense, to lose your mother city is to lose your identity. That city, it's not just about the history, it's also about the temples, the gods, whatever. You know, you you lose everything. And of course, I mean, you know, on the economic sense, if you no longer have a port, you no longer have really have a way of kind of making a living. So, as you say, I mean, it would seem impossible for the Carthaginians to accept these terms. And so it proves, because when the ambassadors from the Roman camp returned to Carthage.

• 42:20Tom Holland?

  The people of the city refuse to accept it, even though they know that in effect by doing so they are signing their own death warrant. And anyone who speaks up saying, actually, I think we should accept these terms. I mean, you know, we've got no chance of keeping the Romans at bay. They are lynched, they're stoned, whatever. And so there is a mass effort to try and steal Carthage for the horrors that are to come. Because of course, they've handed over their catapults, their weapons, their armour, all of that. So what measures do they take? All the slaves in the city are freed, to the degree that the Carthaginians still have arms, arms are given to these slaves. People rush out to quarries outside the city and haul in stones because they're going to try and make more catapults. We're

• 43:02Tom Holland?

  told all the shrines, the temples and every other public space was turned into workshops where men and women worked day and night without pause, taking turns to eat according to a fixed schedule. So basically, you know, equivalents of munitions factories popping up across the city in their temples. And in these workshops, of course, people are busy making swords, spears, shields, anything made of metal in the city is being melted down. And women donate their hair so that it can be used as rope for the catapults, kind of twine it. Hustrbol, their general who'd lost the battle at Oroscopa and is still on death row, he's reprieved and he's given back his old command. And he leads

• 43:44Tom Holland?

  out a makeshift army and prepares for a guerrilla war against the Romans. And it is war. For the third time, Rome and Carthage are locked in what really is this time, a death struggle. It's not a death struggle for Rome, but it absolutely is for Carthage.

• 44:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  So it's the kind of war, it's a bit like, I don't know, when the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939 and, you know, they had, the Germans had such a preponderance of forces, but Allied sympathizers with Poland sort of said, oh, you know, they will have all the pluck, you know, they've got such spirit, they're fighting for their homeland, you know, the people will rise and they will see off the invaders, all of this kind of thing. And actually, that turned out to be complete wishful thinking, because the balance of forces was such that the attacker could not but. Win. And in this case, well, actually, it's not an immediate walkover, is it, by any means?

• 44:40Tom Holland?

  So the Carthaginians do actually manage to hold out for much longer than the Poles do against the Nazis, as it turns out, for several years. And they're able to do this because even though the Carthaginians have had to, you know, have been tricked into handing over so much of their weaponry, the city is still pretty well prepared for a siege. So it has the kind of great triple walls, and these walls in turn are buttressed with ditches and banks. And I mentioned the grain silos. So they have a lot of food inside the city. And they've also built huge systems for collecting rainwater. So again, water shouldn't be a problem. And meanwhile, the Romans, as they advance up to the city, they camp beside a stagnant lake. And it's summer, and so predictably, they all start, you know, catching various horrible diseases.

• 45:26Tom Holland?

  And actually, Hasdrubal, who, you know, he proved an absolute dud in open combat. When it comes to guerrilla warfare, he's actually pretty good. He's very successful at attacking Roman supply lines, masterminding salles. And so all that year, 149, the siege carries on, 148, Roman setbacks continue. They are going around trying to mop up Carthaginian strongholds beyond Carthage. But these two are able to hold out. And again, salles are launched out from the walls and they burn Roman siege engines and so on. And then in 148, Massanissa, you know, the old warhorse, the great, the man who had once been a Carthaginian ally and then become their great enemy,

• 46:11Tom Holland?

  he dies at the fabulous age of 91. And that might have offered hope to the Carthaginians, perhaps, you know, that this kind of inveterate enemy of theirs has gone. And then there comes news from the Balkans that a pretender to the Macedonian throne has emerged. So people remember that the Kingdom of Macedon had been divided up into these four cantons. A pretender has emerged and he wants to reunite these cantons and make himself king. And he defeats a Roman army and sends messages to the Carthaginians, saying, will you enter into an alliance? And of course, the Carthaginians say yes. So suddenly they do have an ally. Now, the Romans, you know, they're not despondent, they're still fully expecting to win.

• 46:55Tom Holland?

  But I think there is a certain sense of alarm developing. And so they start to look around for a saviour. Someone qualified to step into the breach and prove himself a hero. And there is, of course, really only the one candidate.

• 47:16Dominic Sandbrook?

  So the obvious person, I guess, the adoptive grandson of Scipio Africanus is the person we've already talked about, Scipio Emilianus. And it's not just that he has got the right bloodline or the right heredity. He has experience, doesn't he? He has already fought the Carthaginians.

• 47:33Tom Holland?

  He has. I mean, he's a very, very good soldier. So he'd been an observer at Oris Goppa, where Massanissa had defeated the Carthaginians. And so he had seen Hasdrubal, the Carthaginian commander in chief, up close. You know, he knew what made him tick. And then for the past two years, he'd been serving before the walls of Carthage itself, where he was basically the only senior officer to have emerged with any credit at all. I mean, he'd had a very good war. The only drawback is that he's still in his 30s and people will remember that the minimum age to serve as consul is 40. That had been waived for Scipio Africanus against the opposition of Roman conservatives. But the people hadn't cared.

• 48:15Tom Holland?

  They'd forced it through and the same thing happens this time. The people, and I quote, declared that he was the only worthy successor of his father, Emilius Paulus, the conqueror of Macedon and of the Scipios. And so the Senate, recognising the force of public opinion, perhaps, you know, just a little desperate themselves, agree to waive the prohibition and say, yeah, Scipio can run for consul and he's duly elected. And the intriguing thing is that even the absolute spokesman for conservatism, Cato, even Cato gives Scipio Emilianus the nod. I mean, he really is the right man for the job.

• 48:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  So now at last we come to the final chapter in the story. So the siege of Carthage, the end of the Punic Wars, and indeed the end of this great ancient city itself. So the Romans have put all their hopes in Scipio Emilianus. And when he arrives in Africa as consul in 146, Tom, he has the vigour and the dynamism and the ambition that his predecessors have lacked. And he more than bears out the hope that the Senate had in him.

• 49:22Tom Holland?

  Yes. And. Hasdrubal, who has clashed with Scipio Emilianus before, I mean, he's very respectful of his reputation. And so he, rather than continuing with his guerrilla war, he withdraws all his troops inside Carthage and hunkers down there. But this, of course, is only to play into Scipio Emilianus's hands, because now all the Carthaginian forces are trapped inside the great city. And Emilianus knows that if he can only invest the city completely, completely surround it, cut off all supplies of food, then he will be able, in the long run, to starve the city into submission. And so he orders his men to start constructing

• 50:03Tom Holland?

  a massive mole across the entrance of the harbour, which to the Carthaginian seems an impossible engineering project. But Scipio Emilianus is a very good engineer, as well as a very good soldier, and is able to pull it off. And so this mole ends up being constructed. Access to the harbour is now blocked off, and there is no possibility of food coming into Carthage. And so Scipio Emilianus knows that he can now sit back and wait. And with each day that passes, the noose will tighten.

• 50:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  And what about the Carthaginians? Well, this noose is tightening. What are they doing?

• 50:43Tom Holland?

  Well, Carthage has always been run by a senate. In that sense, it's always had a kind of civilian government. But Hasdrubal, he feels that the only way that Carthage survive is if he institutes a military dictatorship. And so this is what he does. You know, he's got all the soldiers at his back, there's no one to stop him. And by doing that, of course, he is able to commandeer all the food supplies within the city and ensure that his men are well fed, even while everyone else starts to starve. And the corpses of those who no longer have access to food begin to litter the streets of the dying city.

• 51:20Tom Holland?

  And Hazdrubul is anxious that this experience of starvation on the part of the vast majority of the public may result in civic unrest, may lead to pressure on him to open negotiations with the Romans, and he's not prepared to do that. So he takes Roman legionaries who've been captured in the fighting, and he leads them up onto the walls of Carthage. And there, where the Romans far below can see what is being done to their comrades, they're tortured to death, and their bodies are dumped into the Roman positions. So that, of course, makes sure that there will be no negotiations. And Scipio Aemilianus is

• 52:01Tom Holland?

  waiting for the morale in the city to hit rock bottom, for people really to start dying, for disease to spread. And then, when that moment comes, he strikes. And he takes the Carthaginians completely by surprise. And his assault, it's not over the walls, it's through the harbors, from the mole. That mole is a kind of launchpad. And so the Romans are able to, it's an amphibious attack. They go through the outer harbour into that inner harbour that the Carthaginians had just been built. And from there, there is easy access to the great marketplace in the centre of the city. And once the Romans have breached the harbour defences, they pour into this marketplace, and they essentially make it

• 52:41Tom Holland?

  the base for the sack of the city that is now going to happen. First of all, they strip this great temple that is standing there of all its gold, pile that gold up, and then they start literally disassembling the city, brick by brick. So what they do, there are kind of very tight, narrow streets fanning off from the marketplace, and there are blocks of housing that reach up six stories. And these are but the marketplace. And the houses that are adjacent to the marketplace, soldiers go in, they clear all the opposition, all the enemy, from each of the stories of these houses. And then, once the houses have been

• 53:23Tom Holland?

  cleared, they take planks up to the top story, and they lay them out across the kind of narrow streets below. And from there, they can pass into the next block of houses, and they do the same. And the process just goes on and on and on. And once the houses have been cleared and the soldiers have gone from the one block to the next, they then set the houses on fire. And you get masonry, you get beams, you get the corpses of the slain, you get old men, women, children who might have taken shelter inside these houses, they all come crashing down into the streets. And we have a horrific description of what this was like. Once all the kind of the debris has fallen

• 54:07Tom Holland?

  into the streets, cleaners came who had been charged with making the streets passable so that the soldiers can continue up the streets. And these cleaners hauled the dead and the living alike into great pits they had dug, disposing of them as though they were masonry and burning timbers, mere debris. Some of the living were thrown in headfirst so that their legs stuck out of the ground, and they were left to writhe where they had been buried a long time. So a kind of hideous grotesque image.

• 54:34Dominic Sandbrook?

  Do you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of the siege of Tenochtitlan that we talked about in the Fall of the Aztecs, the Spanish fighting house by house, destroying the houses to stop the Aztecs from using them as kind of refuges. I mean, it's very, very similar, isn't it? It's this Stalingrad-style battle.

• 54:49Tom Holland?

  I mean, it's possible that there would have been Spaniards.

• 54:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  Of course.

• 54:53Tom Holland?

  In the, in the war who had read these very accounts.

• 54:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  I was thinking that. Yeah, they had classical education, a lot of these people.

• 54:58Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 54:58Dominic Sandbrook?

  So they would have known about all this.

• 54:59Tom Holland?

  And, and this, the destruction of Carthage is the archetype of the destruction of a great and famous and beautiful capital. And the process of clearance goes on for six days. And on the seventh day, the vast mass of the Carthaginians who remained alive surrendered. And the only resistance now is from Hasdrubal and 900 Roman deserters who held out on the kind of the topmost fort, the Carthaginian equivalent of an acropolis. But in time, he too is brought to surrender and he's brought before Scipio Imilianus and grovels before the feet of the Roman commander. And his wife is, who'd been with him, is utterly contemptuous of this. And she takes a dagger, she slits the throats

• 55:40Tom Holland?

  of their two sons, and she throws the corpses of her sons into a fire that is blazing nearby. And then she hurls herself into the flames as well. Very dido.

• 55:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 55:53Tom Holland?

  I mean, it's a bit sad that women tend only to appear in this series when they're killing themselves.

• 55:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's antiquity for you. Yeah. So what happens to Hasdrubal and what happens to the deserters?

• 56:05Tom Holland?

  So Hazrebol is spared and taken back to Rome, where he walks in Scipio Emilianus's triumph, and then he's allowed to settle in a farm outside Rome. So he survives. The Roman deserters, of course, are put horribly to death. The Carthaginians who surrendered, they are all enslaved, about 50,000 of them. They're let out, men, women, children, all become slaves. The city is systematically stripped of all its treasures.

• 56:34Tom Holland?

  No respect is shown, the temples of the Carthaginian gods, they are demolished. Carthage had a rich and venerable literary tradition. All the libraries are emptied and given to the Namidians, who promptly seem to have lost them. The Romans do keep one 28-volume treatise on agriculture, which they have translated into Latin, because obviously they're thinking, well, we want to take over these lands.

• 57:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 57:02Tom Holland?

  And this is the guide to how to, you know, how to make the fields flourish. So we'll keep that. But otherwise, all the wealth of Punic literature is gone. So we have nothing, we have no histories written by the Carthaginians. And so, as so often, you know, in these stories, whether it's the Belgians in the Congo or whatever.

• 57:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 57:21Tom Holland?

  Or indeed, the, you know, the Americans in the Great Plains. We only have one side, we only have the Roman side.

• 57:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 57:28Tom Holland?

  The news of Carthage's fall is sent to Rome, and the Senate then send back instructions to Scipio Emilianus that what remained of the city was to be razed to the ground, and that a curse was to be laid on anyone who in the future might try to settle there. So Carthage is to be left abandoned to weeds.

• 57:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  But here's an amazing thing, they don't sow the ruins with salt.

• 57:52Tom Holland?

  They don't.

• 57:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  Everyone thinks they did that, and they didn't.

• 57:54Tom Holland?

  No, they don't. It was a metaphorical flourish in the Cambridge Ancient History, which came out in the 1920s, and it's just spread like wildfire ever since. But that did, you know, there's no reference to that happening in any of the ancient sources at all. But, you know, they might as well have sowed the fields with salt, because the signal that the destruction of this very famous, very ancient, very beautiful city, the signal sent to the world was unmistakable, that the Romans are no longer prepared to brook any rival, any hint of disobedience. And that is a message that is rammed home a few months later. So people may remember that, you know, there's this uprising in Macedon, this pretender

• 58:38Tom Holland?

  to the Macedonian throne has emerged. I mean, he does not last long. He gets crushed. And there's then a kind of, there's an uprising in Greece and the Romans deal with that very brutally as well. And the suppression of that uprising culminates in the annihilation of a second famous ancient and beautiful city, and that is the destruction of Corinth in Greece, commanding the Isthmus that joins the Peloponnese to northern Greece. And I think that anyone in the Mediterranean in 146 B.C., contemplating the destruction in the same year of Carthage and of Corinth, are well aware that an era has dawned in which Rome is so preponderant that effectively no one in the Mediterranean has any real

• 59:23Tom Holland?

  independence left at all. And, you know, within a century, the whole of the Mediterranean will become a Roman lake. But the story of how Rome rises to that position of preponderance, what it means for people in the Mediterranean, and what it means for the Romans themselves, I mean, that is a story for another day. But I just thought, to end this series, we've done three series in all, and we began the very first series with a passage that derives from Polybius's recollections. Polybius had accompanied Scipio Emilianus to the siege and had witnessed it for himself. So I'll just finish by reading this passage. "It is said that Scipio Emilianus, as Carthage was going up in flames, its annihilation

• 1:00:07Tom Holland?

  almost complete, gazed at the city in its death throes, and openly wept for his enemies. He stood rapt in thought for a long time, pondering how every city, every people, every empire must, as men do, meet with their doom in the end. For such had been the fate of Troy, once a proud and flourishing city, and of the empires of Assyria, Media, and Persia, each in their own day the greatest in the world, and of Macedon, which only recently had blazed with such a brilliance. And then, either deliberately, or because he could not help quoting them, Scipio spoke two lines of Homer: 'A day will come when

• 1:00:49Tom Holland?

  sacred Troy shall perish, and Priam and his people all be slain.'" And when Polybius, speaking to him with the freedom he was granted as Scipio's tutor in Greek literature, asked him what he meant by these words, it is said that without any attempt to veil his meaning, Scipio made reference to his own country. For when he pondered how all things that are mortal must fall, he dreaded how Rome too would fall.

• 1:01:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Craigy. Well, thank you very much, Tom. That's a salutary warning, and indeed, one that sets up beautifully our next series on The Rest Is History, which will be starting on Monday. And that series is the tale of the fall of the Incas, one of the longest and largest contiguous empires in world history that came crashing down at the hands of Francisco Pizarro and his conquistadors. So on Monday, members of The Rest Is History club will get all six episodes in that mighty series. And if you want to join them, if

• 1:02:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  you want to plunge into the streets of Cusco and Caimanaka and the jungles of the Amazon and scale the peaks of the Andes with the Spaniards, then you merely have to head to therestishistory.com to sign up and you'll get all six episodes on Monday. But for now, Tom, what an amazing effort to cover that epic story in three mighty seasons. Thank you so much. And that was Carthage. Bye bye, everybody.

• 1:02:28Tom Holland?

  Ave, aqua vale.

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  Now at Kroger, your points add up to more ways to save every trip. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout, or save at the pump. You can even save up to $35 on your next fill-up. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh, quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, your dollar goes further. Redeem your points online or in the app. Kroger: Fresh for Everyone. Restrictions apply. See site or store for details.

• 1:04:40Speaker 04

  Kayak searches and compares hundreds of travel sites. But unless I repeat the word "Kayak," Kayak thinks you won't remember that. So Kayak asked me to say "Kayak" as many times as possible. "Kayak!"

• 1:04:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  "Kayak." "Kayak." "Kayak, kayak, kayak."

• 1:04:56Speaker 04

  "Kayak!" Search and compare travel deals with Kayak. Got that right.