158: Mass Murder. Evil DOES Exist. But Why? "Panzram"

0:00:00 - Opening: Evil today. 0:09:21 - "Panzram: A Journal of Murder" : https://amzn.to/2RmyShu 1:43:56 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:51:55 - Support: How to Stay On THE PATH. 2:16:29 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 158 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. There was blood all over the floor and smoke in the air.

• 0:15Jocko Willink?

  I heard shots fired outside, but I wasn't quite sure who was shooting or what they were shooting at.

• 0:23Jocko Willink?

  I moved down the hallway, confirming that all the rooms had been cleared.

• 0:29Jocko Willink?

  I soon found the source of the blood, a wounded Iraqi civilian on whom my SEAL hospital corpsman, a highly trained combat medic, was working to apply medical care.

• 0:42Jocko Willink?

  And that's just a short little opening from chapter two of the book, The Dichotomy of Leadership, with that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. And in that chapter, I go on to explain how during this operation in Fallujah, Iraq, we went on to detain multiple suspected terrorists that night. And I don't go into much detail about that. And I don't talk about the people that we captured. We think, I think we took, I think we took about 13 people off target, military aged males. We were probably looking for two or three. We weren't, couldn't figure out or confirm who they were. So we brought all the military aged males off target.

• 1:26Jocko Willink?

  And so we end up at this detention facility and we're turning these individuals over. And I'm sitting there kind of just looking at them, sizing them up. This is one of the earliest operations I had done in my life. It was the first big operation I did in Iraq. And so I'm sort of curious, I guess, for lack of a better word. And I'm looking at the people that we had captured. Like I said, I think there's 13 of them. And just looking at them, looking at their emotions that they were going through. And some of them look scared, right? In fact, I would say the majority of them just look scared. Just, this is not good and this is a bad situation. And you get that feeling like, okay, this guy's probably.

• 2:10Jocko Willink?

  Not bad and will be released. Some of the guys looked mad, which is understandable too. You know, someone comes into your house in the middle of the night and then takes you and you can be mad about that if you can overcome the scared part, right? And of course, these people had lived under Saddam Hussein, so they'd been through some brutal stuff. And for them to be not afraid was also an understandable thing, some of the older gentlemen. And then there was one guy, though, that he looked, he looked different, the look in his eyes. It definitely wasn't scared, but it wasn't even mad. It was like beyond mad. It was beyond angry. It was beyond

• 2:55Jocko Willink?

  a fanatical look. The look that he had in his eyes

• 3:01Jocko Willink?

  was evil. Looked like an evil. We could see evil there and I never will forget that, that face.

• 3:12Jocko Willink?

  And I would see that type of face again over the years.

• 3:20Jocko Willink?

  Especially in Iraq, you'd go out and capture someone that was known for doing horrible things. And you could tell, you'd grab five or six people and you'd say, oh, let me guess which one is the bad guy. And it usually wasn't very hard to tell. And then occasionally, some of those bad guys would just look. They looked completely evil. They looked like sadists. They looked like murderers. They, they had the face of evil. You could see it in their eyes.

• 3:52Jocko Willink?

  And I was

• 3:55Jocko Willink?

  watching a video recently of a

• 3:59Jocko Willink?

  young, beautiful young girl.

• 4:02Jocko Willink?

  Blonde hair. Kind of unkempt blonde hair, a little bit wild. And she had a like a constant persistent smile. Sort of shining on her face. She had young little innocent eyes that were filled with hope.

• 4:24Jocko Willink?

  And I watched this video and she says in the video, she says, "My name is Louisa. I'm a young lady from Denmark and I have a burning desire to go out into the Arctic."

• 4:39Jocko Willink?

  And she's going on kind of describing herself. She says, "I'm very enthusiastic about the outdoors and outdoor activities. I'm studying outdoor life in Norway for this same reason.

• 4:50Jocko Willink?

  I'm trying to find my dream."

• 4:53Jocko Willink?

  She says, "To go into the Arctic."

• 4:58Jocko Willink?

  "But sometimes I take some detours before I end up where I want." And in the video, she's got clips of her in various parts of the world on beaches and in jungles and she's clearly a traveler.

• 5:14Jocko Willink?

  And then she says, "But I'm still working my way towards the north."

• 5:21Jocko Willink?

  "A dream that has been stuck in my head."

• 5:25Jocko Willink?

  "And I hope, wish, and pray

• 5:30Jocko Willink?

  that I can retrieve my dream."

• 5:35Jocko Willink?

  "A dream of experiencing the feeling of kicking a dog sled through the big Arctic."

• 5:42Jocko Willink?

  "About feeling the ice crystals in my face."

• 5:47Jocko Willink?

  "And the view of an infinite white landscape."

• 5:54Jocko Willink?

  "I dream about learning and experiencing the magnificent untamed Arctic."

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  And the video ends with her picking up snow in her hands and she blows it innocently into the camera lens and she's laughing.

• 6:15Jocko Willink?

  And then the video fades.

• 6:21Jocko Willink?

  But she was not able to fulfill her dream.

• 6:28Jocko Willink?

  In fact, she entered a nightmare and didn't return.

• 6:37Jocko Willink?

  On December 17th, 2018, that girl who made that video, her name was Louisa Jesperson and her friend Marin Yuland, another beautiful young lady from Norway.

• 6:55Jocko Willink?

  They were both brutally, brutally murdered by a group of subhuman savages as they camped beside a hiking trail in Morocco. And these despicable and vile people, and I use that term loosely, these savages that murdered these two girls actually recorded their disgusting acts and posted them online.

• 7:36Jocko Willink?

  They attacked these girls. They sawed through their throats with butcher knives.

• 7:46Jocko Willink?

  While they were still alive, while they were screaming,

• 7:53Jocko Willink?

  while they were gasping for air, while they were begging for mercy, and while they were eventually gurgling in their own blood.

• 8:07Jocko Willink?

  And then fell silent.

• 8:11Jocko Willink?

  And one of the murderers put his foot on one of the girl's heads to hold her neck in place while he finished the job

• 8:21Jocko Willink?

  of decapitating her.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  And these sub-humans pledged their allegiance to ISIS.

• 8:38Jocko Willink?

  And shouted "It's Allah's will"

• 8:43Jocko Willink?

  as they killed these

• 8:47Jocko Willink?

  innocent girls.

• 8:54Jocko Willink?

  Sick.

• 8:57Jocko Willink?

  Depraved. Vile.

• 9:02Jocko Willink?

  Creatures.

• 9:07Jocko Willink?

  Evil.

• 9:15Jocko Willink?

  Evil does exist.

• 9:24Jocko Willink?

  Here is another example of evil. "I started doing time when I was 11 years old and have been doing practically nothing else since then. What time I haven't been in jail, I have spent either getting out or getting in again. I have no desire whatever to reform myself. My only desire is to reform people who try to reform me, and I believe the only way to reform people

• 9:55Jocko Willink?

  is to kill them.

• 9:59Jocko Willink?

  In my lifetime, I have murdered 21 human beings. I have committed thousands of burglaries, robberies, larcenies, arsons, and last but not least, I have committed sodomy on more than 1,000 male human beings.

• 10:17Jocko Willink?

  For all of these things, I am not the least bit sorry."

• 10:24Jocko Willink?

  I have no conscience, so that doesn't worry me.

• 10:29Jocko Willink?

  I don't believe in man, God, nor devil.

• 10:35Jocko Willink?

  I hate the whole damned human race,

• 10:39Jocko Willink?

  including myself.

• 10:43Jocko Willink?

  I prayed upon the weak, the harmless, and the unsuspecting.

• 10:50Jocko Willink?

  This lesson I was taught by others.

• 10:55Jocko Willink?

  Might makes right.

• 11:00Jocko Willink?

  Carl Panzram, number 31614.

• 11:07Jocko Willink?

  And that is the opening of a book called Panzram: Journal of a Murderer.

• 11:19Jocko Willink?

  Carl Panzram was evil.

• 11:23Jocko Willink?

  He was institutionalized for most of his life in detention centers and prisons. And whatever may have been good about him at one time or another was eventually suffocated.

• 11:38Jocko Willink?

  And what was left was pure, unmitigated hatred and malevolence.

• 11:47Jocko Willink?

  And while he was going through one of his final stints in prison, he made friends with a young prison guard by the name of Henry Lesser.

• 11:58Jocko Willink?

  And Henry Lesser seemed like a very good, positive person.

• 12:07Jocko Willink?

  Kind of had the ideal of reform and how people could be helped in his mind. And Henry asked that Panzram write the story of his life, which Panzram did.

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  And the notes were saved and documented, and there was additional information from various supporting sources surrounding other details of Panzram's life. And all of that was put together and turned into this book.

• 12:39Jocko Willink?

  Which, though it is a very difficult read,

• 12:45Jocko Willink?

  it's, in my opinion, worth reading to gather a better understanding of

• 12:52Jocko Willink?

  of human nature. And specifically of the capacity for men

• 13:00Jocko Willink?

  to commit evil.

• 13:08Jocko Willink?

  So, again, most of this that I'm gonna read from the book is

• 13:14Jocko Willink?

  his, his writing, Carl Panzram's writing.

• 13:18Jocko Willink?

  And here we go back to the book. "I was born June 28th, 1891, on a small farm in Minnesota. My parents were of German descent, hardworking, ignorant, and poor. The rest of the family consisted of five brothers and one sister, all of whom are dead except three of us brothers and our sister.

• 13:37Jocko Willink?

  All of my family are as the average human beings are. They are honest and hardworking people, all except myself. I have been a human animal ever since I was born. When I was very young, at five or six as of age, I was a thief and a liar, and the older I got, the meaner I got.

• 13:59Jocko Willink?

  As fast as the older boys grew up, they also pulled out. One died. They, this left me, my sister, one older brother, and my mother.

• 14:09Jocko Willink?

  My sister and I were sent to school during the days, and as soon as we came home in the evenings, we were put to work in the fields where my older brother and my mother were always at work from daylight until long after dark sometimes. My portion of pay consisted of plenty of work and a sound beating every time I looked cockeyed or done anything that displeased anyone who was older and stronger and capable and able to catch me and kick me around whenever they felt like it. And it seemed to me, and still does now, that everything was always right for the one who was the strongest, and every single thing that I'd done was wrong.

• 14:44Jocko Willink?

  Everybody said so, anyway. But right or wrong, I used to get plenty of abuse. Everybody thought it was all right to deceive me, lie to me, and kick me around whenever they felt like it. And they felt like it pretty regular." That is the way my life was lived until I was about 11 years old. At about that time, I began to suspect that there was something wrong about the treatment I was getting from the rest of the human race. When I was about 11 years old, I began to hear and see that there were other places in this world besides my own little corner of it. I began to realize that there were other people who lived nice, easy lives and who were not kicked around and worked to death.

• 15:26Jocko Willink?

  I decided that I wanted to leave my miserable home. Before I left, I looked around and figured that one of our neighbors who was rich and had a nice home full of nice things. He had too much and I had too little. So one night I broke into his home and stole everything that to my eyes had the most value. Those things were some apples, some cake and a great big pistol. Eating the apples and cake and carrying the pistol under my coat. I walked to the railroad yards where I caught a freight train going to the west where I intended to be a cowboy and shoot Indians. But I must have had my wires crossed because I missed my connection somewhere. Instead of going out and seeing the world, I was caught, brought back home and beaten half to death and sent to jail.

• 16:08Jocko Willink?

  From there and from there to the Minnesota State Training School at Red Wing, Minnesota.

• 16:14Jocko Willink?

  Right there and then I began to learn about man's inhumanity to man.

• 16:21Jocko Willink?

  So he's off to a rough start. And it was his father had left him and I didn't mention that part. Obviously, I'm not reading every part of the book, but his father left the family and then it was up to his mom. Sounds like he had the uh more than his share of the the rebellious streak that I think most kids have.

• 16:45Jocko Willink?

  And then he shows up at this Minnesota Minnesota State Training School. Back to the book. When I first went to the Minnesota State Trade State Training School. I was about 12 years old, lively, healthy and very mischievous, innocent and ignorant. The law immediately proceeded to educate me to be a good, clean, upright citizen and a credit to the human race. They trained me all right in that training school. During my two years, I was trained by two different sets of people to have two different sets of morals. The good people tried to train me to be good and the bad people did train me to be bad. The method that the good people used in training was to beat goodness into me and all the badness out of me.

• 17:28Jocko Willink?

  They'd done their best, but their best wasn't good enough to accomplish what they set out to do. The more they beat me and whipped me, the more I hated them and their damn religion.

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  Oh yes, we had plenty of church and religion, alright. I used to be pretty ignorant and not able to read very well, so I was always had a hard job learning my Sunday School lessons. For failure to learn these lessons, I was given a whipping. During the first year, I was there, I used to get a beating every Saturday night and sometimes three or four more during the week for doing something I wasn't supposed to do, or for not doing something I was supposed to do. Oh yes, I had plenty of abuse. They had various methods of punishing us for doing wrong and for teaching us to do right. The most popular with them was to take us to the paint shop, so-called, because there they used to paint our bodies black and blue.

• 18:26Jocko Willink?

  Naturally, I now love Jesus very much. Yes, I love him so damn much that I would like to crucify him all over again.

• 18:41Jocko Willink?

  I was too dumb to learn anything in school, so they took me out and put me to work all day washing dishes and waiting on tables in the officer's dining room. Right there, I began to get a little revenge on those who abused me. When I served some food to the, some of the officers, I used to urinate in their soup, coffee, or tea, and masturbate into their ice cream or dessert and then stand right beside them and watch them eat it.

• 19:03Jocko Willink?

  They enjoyed it too, because they told me so. I wish they could read this now.

• 19:11Jocko Willink?

  The next thing I tried to do was poison that Mr. John Moore by putting rat poison in his rice pudding.

• 19:19Jocko Willink?

  But they caught me, beat me, and put me out of the dining room.

• 19:25Jocko Willink?

  About that time, I began to try and figure out some way to punish those who punished me. The only thing I could figure out was to burn down the building in which the paint shop was located. This I did.

• 19:39Jocko Willink?

  I got a long, thick piece of heavy cotton string, wrapped it around and around a long, round stick and lit one end of it and hid it in the laundry near some oil-soaked rags. That night, the whole place burned down at a cost of a hundred, over a hundred thousand dollars. Nice, eh?

• 19:58Jocko Willink?

  Some of the boys who were cleverer than I finally put me wise to how I should perform if I ever wanted to get out of that joint. They told me to act like I was a very good boy, tell everybody I met how much I loved Jesus and how I wanted to go home and be a good boy, go to school and learn to be a preacher.

• 20:17Jocko Willink?

  I done just as they suggested, and I'm damned if it didn't work out, just as slick as hot grease through a tin horn. I was called in before the parole board one day, and there I told them all the lies and hot air I could, and they gave me a parole and let me go home.

• 20:36Jocko Willink?

  In that way, I first found out how to use religion as a cloak of hypocrisy to cover up my rascality's.

• 20:51Jocko Willink?

  Rough way to kick things off.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. But you almost like, you know, you talk about like evil, you almost feel it for him though.

• 21:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  You almost are on his side, kinda like, yeah, everyone was just beating you up your whole life, making, just grinding you to the ground, beating you up, and then like, yes, you're getting it, that's how you feel right now.

• 21:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it's, it's one of those things that's gonna be.

• 21:17Jocko Willink?

  You know, yeah, you feel sympathetic for someone. And then you, as, as that person moves through life, first of all, it's, there's other people that have been through worse things that turn out great and wonderful human beings. And there's other people that go through less that turn out worse, right? So there's, it's, it's a, I'm no psychologist, but there's, there's, it's one of the things that's troubling about this.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:48Jocko Willink?

  And as you, as you hear what he goes through and what he turns into, it's, yeah, it's, it's definitely a challenge. And, you know, at the end of the day, in, in my opinion, like, hey, you're still responsible for your actions. And hey, we get it that you went through some hard things. That doesn't give you an excuse to behave in, in an immoral way, just doesn't.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:17Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  I'm sure that, um, you know, like he, he was saying how he's, you know, pissing in the soup and whatnot. It, I mean, I'm, uh, it, I'm assuming that was of the people who were like trying to correct them and, you know, and beating them more.

• 22:31Jocko Willink?

  Staff, you know, yeah. Staff of the, of the school where he was being trained at.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think that's sort of why you're like, kinda feeling for them because it's like, oh yeah, you're getting direct revenge on them kind of thing. And you're, of course you're angry kid.

• 22:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Of course, what you went through, but then, yeah, once you start just taking it out like, oh, let me see an innocent person. I'm mad at them because their life is, and then you kill them or something. Then that's when you're going to start to not feel for them. I'm sure.

• 22:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, I think so too. Yeah. I guess you do get that kind of feeling like, oh, these guys are beating you up. Now you're getting a little revenge.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:07Jocko Willink?

  You could, you could make a positive movie about that, right? You could make a positive story about that.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Spin it, yeah.

• 23:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I mean, depending on where it goes from there. So right now, you're, you're on his side.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:17Jocko Willink?

  Basically is what I'm hearing.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Basically.

• 23:23Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. After serving about two years there, I was pronounced by the parole board to be a nice, clean boy of good morals, as pure as a lily, and a credit to those in authority in the, in the instruction where I'd been sent to be reformed. Yes, sure, I was reformed all right. Damn good and reformed too. When I got out of there, I knew all about Jesus and the Bible, so much so that I knew it was all a lot of hot air. But that wasn't all I knew. I'd been taught by Christians how to be a hypocrite. And I had learned about stealing, lying, hating, burning, and killing. From the treatment I received while there and the lessons I learned from it, I had fully decided when I left there, just how I would live my life.

• 24:06Jocko Willink?

  I made up my mind that I would rob, burn, destroy, and kill everywhere I went and everybody as long as I lived. That's the way I was reformed in the Minnesota State Training School. That's the reason why. So that's a little bit more, that, that's, that's where you have something in his, in his personality, right? There's something, there's plenty of people that went to this school that didn't go and do what he did. He made that, something snapped.

• 24:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:36Jocko Willink?

  Where he decided that he was just gonna make his life, a life of making people suffer.

• 24:46Jocko Willink?

  Going on, back to the book. I did not want to learn these lessons, but I found out that it isn't what one wants in this world that one gets. Force and might make right. Perhaps things shouldn't be that way, but that's the way they are. I learned to look with suspicion and hatred on everybody. As the years went on, that persisted in my mind, that persisted, that idea persisted in my mind above all others. I figured that if I was strong enough and clever enough to impose my will on others, I was right. I still believe that to this day.

• 25:25Jocko Willink?

  So this is just twisted.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:28Jocko Willink?

  It's really, it doesn't take long for him to get pretty twisted.

• 25:33Jocko Willink?

  And like, there's a lesson here of, the lesson that he talks about, if I found out that it's isn't in the, what one wants in the world that one gets, like, that's actually an important lesson. Like, you don't always get what you want. But then taking that to say, hey, if I'm strong enough and I can force my will on things, then I'll get what I want more often.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, and in that, he did say clever enough to.

• 25:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Which kinda, it's weird, cause like a real low, super low level of that still goes on, I think, with, with a lot of people.

• 26:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, there's no doubt about it.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  You know, with justification and you know how like, you know, you'll, you know, you'll, you'll justify things in your head, you know, be like, oh, you know, when you do something bad, or you do something you know is unfair, even that kinda low level stuff, like, it's not hurting no bunch for sure, but it's like, maybe not fair, or something like that, and you just justify in your head. And you know, like, some people, they're clever, like, they're smart.

• 26:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  So they can justify, their justifications are way more legit seeming, cause they're real smart, they can just, you know.

• 26:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  It's kinda like what lawyer, you see the lawyers do in the movie, you know, you paint someone to be like, someone like, what the, you kinda take things out of context and put other things in context that not supposed to be there kinda thing, and yeah, you just kinda paint this picture in your own mind, why what you're doing is right, and of course, in other people's mind too, you know, then you're clever enough to get away with it.

• 26:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you, you're justifying it to yourself, and he's, well, he's not even talking about that, he doesn't need to justify it to himself. He's doing what he's doing to, to get what he wants.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:06Jocko Willink?

  And his use of being clever isn't to justify to himself, his use of being clever is just to outwit people and take advantage of them.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:14Jocko Willink?

  Be a con man.

• 27:17Jocko Willink?

  Beyond a con man. And he gets, so, he's in and out of prison, and he goes back into prison, he gets out of prison, he goes back into prison, here at this point, he broke out of prison and he's, he hooks up with a guy named Jimmy Benson. Back to the book, he showed me how to work the stick-up racket and how to rob the poor boxes in churches. I in turn taught him how to set fire to a church after we robbed it. We got very busy on that, robbing and burning a church regular, every chance we got.

• 27:46Jocko Willink?

  When we got tired of riding a train, because this is their, their, uh, you know, hitching on these trains. When we got tired of riding on a train, we used to open up the journal boxes, take out the greasy waste packing, and throw in some sand or gravel into it. They wouldn't get far with that car. So they get done riding a train, and they just destroy it. They, you know, they ruin the gearboxes. Just general destruction of everything.

• 28:11Jocko Willink?

  Continues in and out of prison. One time he's drunk, and here's a guy talking about the army and ends up enlisting in the army. Back to the book. I was only in the army a month or two when I got three years in US military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. I had the job of swinging an 18-pound hammer in the rock quarry most of my bit. My number was 1874, and my name was Carl Panzram. There, I'd done 37 months. I'd done plenty of work and I had plenty of punishment. And the only good part of it was that they didn't try to hammer any more religion into me. At this time in my life, I was about 20 years old, six foot tall, and weighed about 190 pound of concentrated hell-fired, man-inspired meanness.

• 28:57Jocko Willink?

  I was strong as two or three average men.

• 29:02Jocko Willink?

  I had to be to be able to withstand some of the punishments and labor that I went through during my three years in the US,

• 29:11Jocko Willink?

  military prison. One of my tasks and punishments while there was to be shackled to a 50-pound iron ball for six months. During that time, I wore the ball and chain day and night, slept with it and worked with it on. My work was in the rock quarry, and that was three miles from the prison. The gang of about 300 convicts and 40 screws used to march out in the morning and back at night. The other men had to carry nothing except themselves, but my part was to load my iron ball, an 18-pound hammer, a pick and shovel, and a six-foot iron crowbar, all into a wheelbarrow, and march behind the line of cons out to the quarry and work there for eight and a half hours in the hot Kansas sun, busting big rocks.

• 29:54Jocko Willink?

  But all that treatment did one good thing for me. The worse food was and the harder they worked me, the stronger I got.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  So I was gonna say, oh, he so he got a good workout. Already big.

• 30:06Jocko Willink?

  And you think, yeah, he's six feet, 190 pounds back in, what is it, 1900 or whatever? He's a yolks dude back then. And then he's doing all this hardcore, physical labor. And yeah, he's turning into a very scary dude.

• 30:25Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, I was discharged from prison in 1910. By the way, can you imagine you're in the army for a couple of months and you get put in the Leavenworth for three years?

• 30:38Jocko Willink?

  I was the spirit of meanness personified. I had not at this time got so that I hated myself. I only hated everybody else. Before I left there, I sung on the same old song and gave him the same line about how I sure loved Jesus and what a nice young man I was and how much good I it had done me to be sent to that prison. I don't know if they believe me or not, but they all said they did anyway. They all declared that I was pure as a lily and free from sin.

• 31:12Jocko Willink?

  Again, there's a bunch of traveling. There's a bunch of, he's a constant criminal. And there's another thing we we realize back in this day, the reason he named, he said, oh, at this time I was Carl Panzram is because he changes his name a bunch because that's what just what you would do back then if you were a criminal. And there's no electronic tracking system. There's no phone numbers, no cellphone. There's not even phone, like phones in everyone's houses. So you can get away with murder, quite literally, and he does. But he he's maybe not the best criminal as well because he gets caught a lot, you know, for robbing and stealing. And part of it's because because he has like a doesn't care attitude.

• 31:51Jocko Willink?

  So he gets put, he gets arrested at a different time. He gets put into a chain gang and he eventually breaks away from, escapes the chain gang and then he goes continuing skipping trains and ends up with an Indian guy. And they work together as a little team and they rob a guy. And here we go back to the book. The Indian tied him up. First he took off his belt, pulled his pants down to below his knees and tied his legs together. Then he tied his hands behind his back. Then he tied his hands to his feet, pulled together. Then he stuffed a sock in his mouth and tied a handkerchief tight over that and then tied him to a tree.

• 32:33Jocko Willink?

  He was then ready to leave him and walk away, but I wasn't through yet. I figured while I had such a good chance as that, I would commit a little sodomy on him.

• 32:43Jocko Willink?

  This I proceeded to do.

• 32:48Jocko Willink?

  And he mentions at one point that he, he hooked up with a girl and got some kind of VD. And then he was like, oh, girls, they're dirty. And so that's why he goes after guys now.

• 33:05Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. At, at night, while I was riding the freight trains, I was always on the lookout for something to shoot. Or trying to stick up the hobos that I met on the trains. I looked them all over and whenever I met one who wasn't too rusty looking, I would make him raise his hands and drop his pants. I wasn't very particular either. I rode them old and young, tall and short, white and black. It made no difference to me.

• 33:37Jocko Willink?

  Some months later, I was pinched at Chinook, Montana for burglary.

• 33:44Jocko Willink?

  I quick took a plea of guilty and got one year at the state prison at Deer Lodge, Montana. When I got there, I met my old partner, Jimmy Benson, who was doing 10 years for robbery. I stayed there about eight months and escaped. He's also good at escaping. He escapes all these things all the time. A week later, I was arrested in Three Forks, Montana for burglary under the name of Jeff Rhodes. I pleaded guilty and got a year and was sent back to Deer Lodge, where I was at once brought to court and given one year for my escape under the name Jeff Davis. Out of these three sentences, I served 23 months. In that prison, there was only work for a few men, and I wasn't one of those. All the cells were for two men in each cell.

• 34:27Jocko Willink?

  Each man could choose his own cellmates and get a new one anytime he wanted. I used to want a new one pretty regular. At that place and time, I got to be an experienced wolf. I knew more about sodomy than old boy Oscar Wilde ever thought of knowing. I would start in the morning with sodomy, work as hard as as hard at it as I could all day and sometimes half the night. I was so busy committing sodomy that I didn't have time left to serve Jesus, as I had been taught to in those reform schools.

• 35:06Jocko Willink?

  He gets out of that prison. As soon as I got to Oregon and gets put in another prison. I got to, as soon as I got to Oregon State Prison, I was in more trouble. I swore I would never do the seven years and defy the warden and all his officers to make me. Gets put in solitary confinement. Here we go in solitary confinement. There are coolers and coolers. Some are bad and some are worse. None are good. Some are cold and wet. Some are hot and dry. Some you freeze and others you roast and sweat. In all, you are hungry and thirsty and filthy and dirty. And some you stay a day, others a week, and there have been times when I have been in the cooler a month or more. Bread and water isn't very nourishing, and neither does it generate clean thinking in a person's mind.

• 35:50Jocko Willink?

  The milk of human kindness generally curdles and turns into sour under such conditions. The more cooler you get, the more heat and hate there is in your heart. In every joint I was ever in, there was always some form of torture that was on tap. I usually got my share of every kind there was. I've had them all at one time or another. And then he goes on through a bunch of different

• 36:18Jocko Willink?

  torture that they would use on these prisoners from like straitjacket type things. There's something called the snorting pole, which is a post about 12 feet long. You get basically tied to it. You get whipped.

• 36:34Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, when the lash begins to take away little bits of hide and the blood begins to run, then the sucker begins to jerk and yelp and snort. That's why it's called the snorting pole. When a man is let down after being whipped, he has blood on his back and murder in his heart. That's, that's all about the snorting pole. There's the bat and the paddle. There's, here's this thing, the restraint machine. The restraint machine, barefooted, standing on a cold damp concrete floor, backed up to an iron barred door, hands behind, cuffed to the door, a large belt under my arms, around my chest, pulled tight to the door.

• 37:16Jocko Willink?

  Standing in that position for four hours, then let down for one hour to eat my bread and water, then four hours more, then to bed, which was a board, no blankets. In the morning, bread and water, and then four hours more, and so on for a stretch of anywhere from five to 14 days. That was the limit. That's your restraint machine. If you were, okay, I know you're claustrophobic, right?

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 37:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, you are.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:43Jocko Willink?

  But sometimes I don't, I don't think I'm claustrophobic, but sometimes I want to move a limb, right? You know what I'm saying? And for instance, you're on a plane and you're all tight in an economy seat up against the bulkhead. And there's Like it's tight.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:03Jocko Willink?

  You know that part of the plane towards the back where the the the bulkhead kind of curves in so you're even losing a little bit more space.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:12Jocko Willink?

  And you just want to move.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:14Jocko Willink?

  You know, but you can't because the seatbelt light just went on or whatever.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes.

• 38:19Jocko Willink?

  Now imagine doing four hours like that for fourteen days, four hours twice a day for fourteen days.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:26Jocko Willink?

  That's harsh.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's actually real harsh. So there's like two and to Sam because claustrophobia usually is like, you know, you go in an elevator and you feel it that kind, you know, I don't I don't have it like that. But yeah, maybe I'm a little bit more sensitive to those kinds of scenarios.

• 38:45Jocko Willink?

  Side control claustrophobia.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I used to, yes, but this is more what it is to put it accurately.

• 38:52Jocko Willink?

  Did I heal you?

• 38:53Speaker 01

  You healed me, yeah. Actually, what it was was like you just I just got in better shape. That's all because like it wasn't it was the idea that I'm like tired and I won't be able to get out of here like I'm stuck here forever. I'm going to die here. That's the feeling you get. But when I wasn't tired, I'm like, oh, no, I can cruise down here. I just I don't know. I just felt like it was better.

• 39:14Jocko Willink?

  The last time we rolled, didn't you have a little issue down there?

• 39:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:18Jocko Willink?

  Are you sure?

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Yes. I don't I don't remember having any issue recently, but like year it's been years. But that's the feeling is what it is. So but here's when I got an MRI on my arm.

• 39:31Jocko Willink?

  You tapped to something the other day that's not a tapping offense. I forget what it was.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  It was your that that forearm on my throat, remember?

• 39:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  It was like I couldn't it was too like you did it too hard for me to have time to figure out, okay, I can turn this way or whatever to relieve the pain. You did it like too fast.

• 39:53Jocko Willink?

  I did it with like a little extra like a little.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't like a striker or nothing like that. But yeah, it was like I would have got my throat would have got injured if I would have like.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  More time. Thanks for that, by the way. I had a MRI on my.

• 40:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you had to go in that tube.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. So which is fine if you're just in a comfortable position. It can be when you open your eyes and you look how freaking the tube is like inches in front of your face and you're in there. Yeah, I can kind of jam you out, but you just close your eyes and be like, oh.

• 40:24Jocko Willink?

  That's a big, it's a classic movie is a big deal in the, in the SEAL teams, especially. Because you had to lock out of the sub submarine chambers, which isn't in the old days, it was a submarine chamber that wasn't built for SEALs to lock out of. It was built for an escape hatch. If there's an emergency on the submarine.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  What do you mean lockout?

• 40:45Jocko Willink?

  You're underwater on a submarine.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:47Jocko Willink?

  And you go into a little chamber and then once you're in the little chamber, it fills with water equalized with the outside and then the door opens up and you can swim out. That's, that's called a lockout chamber and we used to do that.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:58Jocko Willink?

  And there's still, we still do it, but like it's a little bit more of a specialized group that does that now, but it used to just be a general thing for, for if you were in the dames, you would do that. And we definitely, because you're in there with equipment.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  For how long?

• 41:14Jocko Willink?

  A while. It would take a long time to get a whole SEAL squad out.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Like what? More like what's a while?

• 41:21Jocko Willink?

  You'd be in that little chamber for probably 15 minutes at a time. But here's the thing, you're in there, there's two major situations going on. Number one, you're not just in there, you're in there with like one or two other guys.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:34Jocko Willink?

  But you're also in there with equipment. So you got bags of weapons, waterproof weapons. You actually have your boats in there and they're, so it's all tight.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:43Jocko Willink?

  And here's, here's what would really freak you out. So the water starts to fill, it starts to fill up.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:50Jocko Willink?

  And then as it's filling up, it gets to a point where you got to keep it equalized and you're using these little pressure valves. One, you, you basically crank a valve that pushes air into the chamber. And so that pushes the water down. If you're not good, then you're going to mess up the pressure and you're going to, it's called losing the bubble. Cause there's a bubble of air that you're just sitting there breathing.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:13Jocko Willink?

  If you don't equalize the pressure well, then that bubble just keeps going up and then you lose the bubble. The bubble's gone. Which I think is where the. That's what I always thought losing the bubble. You've heard that term, right?

• 42:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 42:27Jocko Willink?

  Okay, when someone says, oh, he's losing the bubble. You've never heard that before?

• 42:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 42:31Jocko Willink?

  Well, we would say it, and I've heard it. I've heard civilians say it too. So I'm pretty sure that it's Yeah, but I think that's where it came from. It's like, oh, you're losing the bubble. And I've been in the chamber when someone lost the bubble.

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:43Jocko Willink?

  And I remember I was telling the guy, I was like, hey, you're losing the bubble. You're losing the bubble. You're losing the bubble. And then I'm underwater. And then you gotta find the, you gotta find the octopus, which is the, the regulator, which you have, you have air tanks just in there, like compressed air tanks, like scuba tanks that are strapped to the wall, just in case someone loses the bubble. And then you gotta find, they got a chem light on a red chem light. So you're just digging around. You're gonna grab the red chem light. You find your thing. You start breathing and you find the valve and you crank it. And then the bubble comes back. But yeah, but people, you, if you're claustrophobic in that situation, it's gonna be problematic.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Big time.

• 43:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Huge. Yeah.

• 43:20Jocko Willink?

  Cause it's just the expression on your face at this time tells me that you would not.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  How big was it? How big is the chamber?

• 43:26Jocko Willink?

  It's smaller than the, the area that you and I are sitting right now.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So my MRI for my bicep, I had to go like this, like my hand up in the air. Well, you know, I'm laying down, so it's not up in the air, but like, so you're not laying, laying regular. One hand is up.

• 43:44Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 43:45Speaker 01

  And for 15 minutes in that little teeny tiny tube. So like how you're saying, I could lay on my bed like that.

• 43:52Jocko Willink?

  Did they sedate you or anything?

• 43:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 43:54Jocko Willink?

  You just dealt with it.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  No, yeah, this is.

• 43:56Jocko Willink?

  I've had a few MRIs in my time, but I just relaxed and went in there. No big deal. I didn't lose the bubble like you did.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Right. No, no, no, no. The thing is I did. Well, here's the thing. So this is what I really admitted to myself. Okay. I have like a little sensitivity to it. Um, so he's like, okay, you gotta put your arm up because it, you know, and you can't move. So I'm thinking, man, I can just lay down my bed like this all day. I'll sleep like that, you know, but why am I super like nervous about this? So I go in and he's putting me in and I feel my heart just start beating real fast, like full on. I'm like, oh, man. But, um, but I mentally pushed through it, like the kind of after like not even a minute, but maybe like 30, 45 seconds. I'm like, ah, you know.

• 44:40Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever watched guys cave diving?

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Like, what do you mean? No.

• 44:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, diving in caves.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, when they're underwater, but it's an underwater cave.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:50Jocko Willink?

  And you're diving.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:51Jocko Willink?

  That can get a little tight.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so and that I we um on Kauai, there's a place called the Blue Room. And it's that.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  And here's the thing, so it's basically a cave. You walk up this mountain, maybe like, I don't know, fifty fifty yards, maybe up a mountain. And you go into the mountain. Well, no, no, the mountain is huge. You just walk up fifty yards, then there's a cave. That's where the cave is. And you go in the cave and depending on on, you know, how much it rained or whatever, there's a little lake in the cave. It's really cool. We used to always go. At the back of the cave is a little teeny tiny hole.

• 45:24Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Teeny tiny hole.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  If the water's too high and it covers that hole, it's still a hole, but it's on you gotta go underwater. So at the end of that, it basically that hole is a hallway that you swim through. You can't touch the bottom. It's like you swim through this little hallway and it goes and it curves. This is maybe

• 45:42Speaker 01

  maybe a twenty twenty yards.

• 45:43Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Eh, not twenty, that's that's, you know, maybe ten.

• 45:47Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Yards.

• 45:48Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  In the dark, though. And the only light is this glowing, bright blue light that the water creates from the sun that shines in the water and and kind of reflects up. It's really, it's really nice, but yeah, if you have an issue with that, especially if the water's kind of high.

• 46:04Jocko Willink?

  What do you?

• 46:04Speaker 01

  It's a big room in there.

• 46:06Jocko Willink?

  And is that is that open to the light?

• 46:09Speaker 01

  The light from the water lights up the room. So it's it's, yeah, it's really weird. That's why you kind of go, because it's really awesome. The thing is, there's nothing to hold on to. You're treading water in that room. So it's like.

• 46:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the room room is deep water.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't touch it. It's a huge lake in there, you know? So you can't touch the bottom at all. And um, but if the water level is high enough where that cave or the the hallway, we'll call it, is like this, you know, where you can just barely do, it gets like, oh, this is kind of nerve wracking for sure. But sometimes it's real low and it's cool you to swim through. But if it's like your first time or you have a little bit of claustrophobia in in water like that, you'll, it'll jam you up for sure. But I never had a problem with that one. It's that, it's what you said, when you know you can't move.

• 46:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  But if you know you can't move also, you can just stay there. It's weird. It's like a psychological thing, you know?

• 47:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  But yeah, I get that every once in a while on the plane too.

• 47:06Jocko Willink?

  The restraint machine. So I guess that would be really effective against some people that have a little claustrophobia.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Or they would just go nuts.

• 47:17Jocko Willink?

  The thing is though. Okay, let's say all these methods are bad, right? Let's say all these methods of reform are bad.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  I feel good about saying that, yes.

• 47:26Jocko Willink?

  Okay, and then you say, okay, if I was in that situation, I would do everything I could to get out of the scenario where, like, okay, I got arrested and I got put in the restraint machine and I got the the beat with the paddle and I got all those things happening. Guess what? You know what I'm gonna do is try and try and stay clean a little bit, right? Get on the, maybe get on a little bit of a of a path, a better path.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, yeah.

• 47:48Jocko Willink?

  It didn't work at all.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 47:50Jocko Willink?

  At all. He didn't care.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it kind of makes sense that like, when, what did he say after the snorting pole or whatever, like,

• 47:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you just filled with hatred.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Blood on your back and murder on your mind or whatever. Yeah, that seems like, because even the claustrophobia thing on the, on the, what's that called? The restraint situation? Four hours, every, like, every session, all day, you know, like, perhaps after a while, you're like, you're gonna get used to that. Or you're gonna go so nuts that you're just gonna faint or, I don't know, something like that. Either way, there's a part of your mind, I would think, I don't know, this is just what it feels like listening to it. I feel like I would just be so nuts at the end. Like, I, like, I wouldn't care about that restraint thing. I would just care about, like, murdering the person or something. I could see how that could go.

• 48:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it could definitely could go that way.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  I would probably try not to go there anymore, but that's just me.

• 48:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so maybe as a reformer, if you cross the line and you make someone snap, now you're no longer being productive.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:47Jocko Willink?

  This is true with your kids, and maybe you haven't experienced this yet. But you can go like, push your kids to a point where they don't care.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:56Jocko Willink?

  Like, oh, I'll take this away. I'll take this away. And then all of a sudden, they go, I don't care. Take it. They throw their, you know, the toy that you're threatening? They throw it at you.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:06Jocko Willink?

  Take it.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Remember the Breakfast Club? Remember that movie?

• 49:10Jocko Willink?

  I do remember.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Okay, remember the part, that guy John Bender? What was his real, I forget the actor's name, but anyway, I'm just trying to play. Bender is his name.

• 49:18Jocko Willink?

  Which guy is, which character?

• 49:19Speaker 01

  The bad guy, the bad kid.

• 49:20Jocko Willink?

  Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  And he's rolling, and he's like, um, he's like, hey, did Barry Manilow raid your, or did you raid Barry Manilow's wardrobe? And he's like, I'll give you the answer to that, uh, next Saturday, saying like, you got another detention here next Saturday. And then he says something else, he goes, then you got another Saturday. And he's like, well, I'm free this Saturday, you know, he did that. He was after, he was like, I don't care.

• 49:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  He's like, you really think?

• 49:41Jocko Willink?

  And then he's holding up the horn, two months, Bender, I got you two months.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was good, that was a good part there.

• 49:49Jocko Willink?

  So yes, you can't push it too far. And obviously, from a leadership perspective, we'll just go for a little leadership perspective here. There are things you can do to the people that work for you where they won't care anymore.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:00Jocko Willink?

  And now you, now, you, you're done. You have, you've lost control of.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 50:06Jocko Willink?

  You've lost control over them. So don't do that.

• 50:11Jocko Willink?

  He talks about this electric, electric shock too, they called the hummingbird. First, an ordinary steel bathtub with, in which four or five inches of ice cold water, the victim is laid down in there and chained hand and foot. Then the chief torture enters the scene. He is dressed in ordinary clothes and, and has only a rubber slicker and a pair of rubber gloves on his hands, in his hands. He holds a common sponge. The sponge is connected to electric battery by wires. The switch is turned on and the torture advances on the victim. He first begins on the soles of the feet by gently rubbing the charged sponge there. And then gradually working his way up to the body and to the head. The sensations to the victim are that there seems to be millions of red hot needles sticking into him.

• 50:55Jocko Willink?

  The agony is intense. Two or three minutes and the victim is ready for the grave or the madhouse. Yet there is not a single mark or bruise on his whole body. A physician stands beside, this is sick. The, a physician stands beside the victim and every few seconds feels the pulse and examines him. When he judges that the victim is exactly on the verge of madness or death, he gives the signal to switch off the current. Then the victim is thrown into a cell where he is left for a few days or weeks.

• 51:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  That's weird, the sponge, how they put the sponge there.

• 51:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Like on Lethal Weapon one, he got, he got rigs with that.

• 51:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  And I remember, but he had, that's what it made me think of when he had the, the sponges. And he's in the shower all tied up like that and he keeps like hitting them. He's like, hit them again. Yeah, those sponges, I wonder what that, that's about though. The sponge, it conducts the electricity.

• 51:53Jocko Willink?

  Cause water, water conducts, doesn't leave a direct mark.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  It's just hitting you with like a big.

• 51:59Jocko Willink?

  Shock.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Pillow of shock.

• 52:04Jocko Willink?

  Uh, continues on, he gets, eventually gets out of that prison. And, and he actually broke out of that prison. And then he's, now he's just on like full crime mode. I don't even know what goes beyond crime mode, but just full stealing, raping, murdering, swindling.

• 52:23Jocko Willink?

  He steals enough money, he works on a bunch of different boats and eventually steals enough money to buy a yacht.

• 52:31Jocko Willink?

  So he bought a yacht, yeah. And I don't know what, how big the yacht was, but it wasn't small.

• 52:37Jocko Willink?

  And here we go back to the, on my yacht, I had quarters for five people. But I was alone for a while, then I figured it would be a good plan to hire a few sailors to work for me. Get them out of my yacht, get them drunk, commit sodomy on them, rob them and kill them. This I done. Every day or two, I would get plenty of blues, booze by robbing other yachts there. The Barbara two was one of them, I robbed her a dozen or so others around there. I was hitting the booze pretty hard myself at that time. Every day or two, I would go to New York and hang around 25th street and size up the sailors. Whenever I saw a couple who were about my size and seemed to have money, I would hire them to work on my yacht. I would always promise a big pay and easy work. What they got was something else.

• 53:21Jocko Willink?

  I would take them and their clothes and gear out to my yacht at City Island. There we would go and wine and dine and when we, when they were drunk enough, I would go to bed. Or they would go to bed. When they were asleep, I would get my forty five Colt automatic. Army pistol, this I stole from Mr. Taft's house. And blow their brains out. Then I would take out a rope and tie a rock on them and put them into my rowboat, rowboat. Row them out in the main channel, about one mile and drop them overboard.

• 53:54Jocko Willink?

  They are there yet, ten of them. I worked that racket for about three weeks.

• 54:04Jocko Willink?

  Eventually gets on another ship, loses that, kinda gets,

• 54:09Jocko Willink?

  people are suspect, he goes, gets on a ship to Europe, from Europe he goes to Africa.

• 54:15Jocko Willink?

  In Africa, he buys a girl, I paid a big price for her. I bought her from her mother and father. For about eight dollars in American money. The reason I paid such a big price for her is but was because she was a virgin. Yeah, so she said. She was about eleven or twelve years old, I took her to my shack the first night and took her back to her father's shack the next. I demanded my money back because they had deceived me by saying the girl was a virgin. I didn't get my money back, but they gave me another younger girl. This girl was about eight years old. I took her to my shack and maybe she was a virgin, but it didn't look like it to me. I took her back and quit looking for any more virgins. I looked for a boy. I found one.

• 54:59Jocko Willink?

  He was our table waiter, I educated him into the art of sodomy as practiced by civilized people, but he was only a savage and didn't appreciate the benefits of civilization. He told my boss and the boss man fired me quick, but before he did, I licked the hell out of him.

• 55:18Jocko Willink?

  The boy, eleven or twelve, came bumming, another boy about eleven or twelve, came bumming around. He was looking for something, he found it too. I took him out to a gravel pit about a quarter mile from the main camp of the Sinclair Oil Company. I left him there, but first I committed sodomy on him and then killed him.

• 55:39Jocko Willink?

  His brains were coming out of his ears when I left him. And he will never be any debtor. He is still there.

• 55:49Jocko Willink?

  He ends up murdering another six people in Africa on a boat. He like chartered a canoe and then kills everyone in it. And then signs on to a ship.

• 56:03Jocko Willink?

  That's heading back to New York. That was the summer of nineteen twenty-two. He arrives back in America. Back to the book in Salem, Massachusetts. I murdered an eleven or twelve year old boy by beating his brains out with a rock. I tried a little sodomy on him first. I left him laying there with his brains coming out of his ears. Went down towards New York, robbing and hell raising as I came. In January or February of nineteen twenty-three, I got a job as a watchman at two twenty Yonkers Avenue, Yonkers, New York. While there, I met a young boy of fourteen or fifteen whose name was George and whose home was in was and is in Yonkers. I started to teach him the fine art of sodomy, but he had but I found he had been taught about it all and he liked it

• 56:46Jocko Willink?

  fine. I kept him with me until I left that job of night in April of nineteen twenty-three.

• 56:53Jocko Willink?

  The kid George got scared and I let him go home to Yonkers. When he got there, he told the police all he knew about me, which wasn't much, but it was enough for the cops to come looking for me. They caught me in my yacht at Nyack. They took me boat and all my plunder to Yonkers, jail there, charged me with sodomy, burglary, robbery, and trying to break jail there.

• 57:17Jocko Willink?

  In and out again, a few days he gets out. A few days later, I went to New Haven where I killed another boy. I committed a little more sodomy on him and then tied his belt around his neck and strangled him, picked him up where he was when he was dead and threw his body over behind some bushes.

• 57:33Jocko Willink?

  Eventually, he does his time. He gets trial for the sodomy burglary and robbery, pleads guilty and immediately given the limit of the law, five years at once. I was sent to Sing Sing. And then from Sing Sing, he gets sent to another prison called Danamora, which is a notorious notorious prison. Says in the book of all the prisons, Danamora was the one and only designed specifically to punish.

• 58:12Jocko Willink?

  And so now this gets really interesting because he's in this really bad prison and there's a description that's not from him. That's just part of the book, part of the information in the book, talking about Dana Mora and how bad it is there. And then he's done all this heinous, I mean, just heinous acts that he should be killed for over and over again. And here he is, going back to the book, "I attempted to escape. I failed in my attempt, but in doing so, I fell about 30 feet to a concrete walk, breaking both my ankles, both my legs, fracturing my spine and rupturing myself. In this condition, I was carried to the prison hospital where I lay for five days and was carried out and

• 58:55Jocko Willink?

  dumped into a cell without any medical or surgical attention, whatever. My broken bones were not set. My ankles and legs were not put into a cast. In fact, nothing was done except give me a bottle of liniment, which I would have done, which would have done no good if I had been able to rub it on myself. The doctor never came near me and no one else was allowed to do anything for me. In that condition, I was left for eight months. At the end of the time, the bones had knitted together so I could stagger around on a pair of crutches." So it's like he's complaining about his maltreatment, right? "I got injured and they didn't take care of me." It's like, hey, bro. Yeah, you don't get any good treatment.

• 59:38Jocko Willink?

  "At the end of 14 months of constant agony, I was taken to the hospital where I was operated on for my rupture and one of my testicles was cut out. Five days after my operation, I tried to see if my sexual organs were still in good order. I got caught trying to commit sodomy on another prisoner. For that, I was thrown out of the hospital and dumped into a cell where I suffered more agony for many months. Always in pain, never a civil answer from anyone, always a snarl or a curse or a lying, hypocritical promise which was never kept. Crawling around like a snake with a broken back, seething with hatred and a lust for revenge, five years of my life of this kind." The last two years and four months confined in isolation with nothing to do except brewed upon what I thought the wrong, what I thought was the wrongs that had been done to me, not

• 1:00:22Jocko Willink?

  allowed to receive letters or visits from friends. When the prison inspectors came to investigate conditions and complaints, they were told I was a degenerate, that I suffered from delusions, that I was insane, so they would pay no attention to me, or anything that I or anyone else ever complained of.

• 1:00:38Jocko Willink?

  This went on for all of my five years, and the more they misused me, the more I was filled with the spirit of hatred and revenge. I was so full of hate that there was no room in me for such feelings as love, pity, kindness, or honor or decency. I hated everyone I saw.

• 1:00:56Jocko Willink?

  Again, it's a guy that he only sees the pain that's been caused to him, but apparently doesn't see any of the pain that he's causing anybody else.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Jocko Willink?

  Zero empathy.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:09Jocko Willink?

  Zero.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Doesn't it sort of, could it seem, or could it happen like this with him, where, you know, when he's young, he gets beat down?

• 1:01:19Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Obviously not showing much affection.

• 1:01:22Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  That's, that's an assumption, obviously, but beat down, so now he has this hatred, so now he inflicts pain on quote-unquote "others", right? Because of the hatred he has, or whatever. So it's kind of like him kind of what, getting even?

• 1:01:34Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  For lack of a better term. So he gets even, and then he gets punished for that, right? Obviously, because you can't commit crimes like that. So he gets punished, so now he thinks it's uneven now. Hey, you know?

• 1:01:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  It's just the feeling. He's not like, yeah. So now he's like, oh, now that, now me being punished for what I did, by the way, but me being punished is giving me even more hate. Now I gotta, you know, seek vengeance for that. Then he does it, then of course he gets, and he just keeps doing it.

• 1:01:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  So it's like this cycle.

• 1:02:00Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's another cycle here. And the cycle is, he's blaming everyone else for the situation that he's in.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:06Jocko Willink?

  You know, he's blaming every, and at a certain point, sure, let's, let's blame that first state penitentiary that he was in when he was a kid, the state school. Let's put some blame on them, okay. But you got out of that. You had another opportunity. To get on the right path and and then what do you do? You just blame blame blame blame blame. And the more you're blaming other people, you're putting yourself into a downward spiral that he's never gonna get out of, obviously.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  And now he's blaming, he blames the whole human race. I mean, let's. It's it's real easy just to sort of. He only writes about it for three sentences, but like, oh, oh, in New Haven, I raped and murdered an eleven year old boy.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:52Jocko Willink?

  Like, no, you don't get any mercy now, and you can't blame anyone else for doing that. That's no one else's fault. You did that.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. But in his mind.

• 1:03:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  You know how like when you hit, let's say you flick your friend on the head joking around, right? You flick him on the head. You're joking around. Then your friend's like, your friend's like, hey, that was kind of hard, you know, so so he like flicks you and you're like, super hard. And you're like, hey, I didn't flick you on the head that hard. So you so you smack him, you know, and it turns into this big fight. And who's who's who's to blame, right?

• 1:03:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Both guys feel like, hey, I flicked you. I was just joking. You didn't have to flick me that hard. The other guy's like, why'd you flick me in the first place? You know, kind of thing. So and I'm not saying that that's what happened, but in his mind, that's probably what it feels like.

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure. That's what it feels like. For sure. That's what it feels like. And we all can feel like that at one time or another. We think, oh, it's this person's fault. It's that person's fault.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Jocko Willink?

  It's my parents. It's the school system. It's the whatever. It's society.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  Right? It's society.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:56Jocko Willink?

  It's every other human being. Like, that's where he's at right now. He hated everyone I saw.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Jocko Willink?

  That's where he's at.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  It's like he's the victim.

• 1:04:03Jocko Willink?

  And he's the victim. And and you just just listen to, I mean, it's so clear when he's talking about all these medical problems that he he's the victim.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:12Jocko Willink?

  He's the victim. Whereas if he would have just swapped his attitude early on and said, okay, what about what's happening right now? Even the first, why did he get? Why did he get sent to the state penitentiary or to the state school system? Because he stole a gun, ran away, ripped ripped off a family of their stuff. Like, oh, if you do that, you go to prison. But he didn't see that. This is fault.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:33Jocko Willink?

  That wasn't his fault. He did that because he was living in a bad home.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:36Jocko Willink?

  It's like, okay. At some point, you have to take ownership of what's going on in your world.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Jocko Willink?

  And you can't just continually blame other people. If you do, eventually, you know who's at fault? Everyone in the world but you.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:51Jocko Willink?

  So let's not get there. I'll tell you what, it was a pretty good transition for when I joined the Navy. That's one thing and I've talked about how when I joined the Navy, it's like a clean slate. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't matter what you did. And that was a really positive thing for me because all of a sudden, and it's a very cause and effect when you're going through like Navy boot camp or any kind of boot camp, any kind of military indoctrination. If you don't do what you're supposed to do, you get punished for it. If you do what you're supposed to do, you either A, don't get punished at a minimum, or you get some type of reward. And it's all set up that way purposely, but it's very easy. It was very easy for me to comprehend as an 18 year old kid going,

• 1:05:32Jocko Willink?

  oh, if I, if I do this right, I will be rewarded. If I do this wrong, I will be punished. This is on me. And then what you, then the next thing that they build on top of that is if I let my team do something wrong, we will all get punished. If we do things correctly, we will receive at a minimum, no punishment and possibly some type of reward. It was very easy for me to assemble those pieces in my young brain. And let's face it, when you're 18 years old, I mean, my brain wasn't all that developed, right? I mean, right? Like

• 1:06:10Jocko Willink?

  physiologically speaking, the, the, the male, like, what is it? The male frontal cortex isn't fully formed until they're like 25, right? Didn't you tell me that?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So there you go. So there I was 18 and I yet was able to figure out, okay, wait a second. If I do this, it's on me. If I get punished, it's my fault. If our team gets punished. And, and again, that's a, that's a little jump there. They're kind of bring you through that little phase of like, okay, we, now you're responsible for you. You understand that? And once you understand that's like, okay, now you're responsible for your team. And some people don't make that transition. Some people, you know, it within the team. Oh, it wasn't my fault. It was Jimmy's fault.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:50Jocko Willink?

  Right? And as you stay in the military longer, or as you go in any workforce, eventually you realize, okay, if we don't, if I don't work as a team, we're all going to get punished.

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Jocko Willink?

  So I need to help the team. He's not learning any of this.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  No, no, he's not helping any.

• 1:07:07Jocko Willink?

  That's awful.

• 1:07:11Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. My whole mind was bent on figuring out ways to annoy and punish my enemies and everybody was my enemy. I had no friends. That was the frame of mind I was in when my five years was up and I was turned loose to go anywhere I wanted to go. My intention was to rob, rape and kill everybody I could, anybody and everybody. And he goes through these long kind of plans of putting bombs in inside tunnels and had to get a gas mask. He's poisoned gas and he was gonna steal so much money. And then with this, with this bunch of money that he was gonna get from robbing all these people in this plot that he has, with that, he says,

• 1:07:54Jocko Willink?

  "With unlimited funds in my hands, I then intended to steal millions of dollars and kill millions of people. This I intended to do by starting a war between England and the USA." Sounds fantastic, alright, but I'm positive he could have done. He goes through his whole plot of how he was gonna make that happen. He was gonna bomb a British ship that was, you know, like here peacefully, bomb it and make it look like America did it, when diplomatic relationships were already strained. That was his plan.

• 1:08:21Jocko Willink?

  "I used to spend all my time figuring out how I could murder the most people with the least harm and expense to myself and I finally thought of a way to kill off the whole town, men, women, children and even cats and dogs." And he goes through another big plan about using arsenic and dead hogs and put them in the water supply. He goes through like detailed plans.

• 1:08:47Jocko Willink?

  Now, this was some interesting, his perception of what it was like. He's back in jail again. And I forget what for this time, but for all this crap that he's doing all the time, all these crimes he's committing. Back to the book. "The underworld code is very simple. It is never squeal. Don't be a stool pigeon, a rat or an informer. All crooks want everybody else to believe that they are square. Cops are the same. They all wish everybody else to think they act from principle. They're always telling everyone they meet about how much principle they have. It is against their principle to do this or that. The queer part of it is that they not only want others to believe this, but they believe it themselves."

• 1:09:34Jocko Willink?

  But the real truth of the matter is that they deceive themselves and mistake policy for principle. When crooks are square with anyone, it is because it is for their own interest to be so. It is good policy. When it ceases to be in their own interest to square with another one, then it becomes time to change their tactics, and they aren't slowing doing it either. It makes no difference to them who they snitch on, no matter if they've been loyal to each other through a whole lifetime as partners and friends, no matter if they send their friends to prison or to hell by way of rope or chair. That cuts no ice. They are looking out for their own precious skins.

• 1:10:16Jocko Willink?

  And this is a guy also that doesn't trust anybody.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:26Jocko Willink?

  So, and that's actually what he said, I mean, certainly that's there's, you can't say that about, you can say that about a lot of people, but there's all kinds of criminals that never give up the, never, never give up on anyone's names, never rat on anybody else, and they get the book thrown at them and they take it.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:47Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, every child has, this is interesting, every child has some criminal tendencies. It is your place to correct those traits and teach them the right way to live while they are young and their minds are forming. Then when they do the, reach the age of reason and action, it will be quite natural for them to live clean, upright, honorable lives. In that way, you will stop crime at its source before it begins. As a child, a child is very easily led, any child if properly taught will live the way he is taught to live. All criminals are merely overgrown children. It is in your hands to make us or break us.

• 1:11:28Jocko Willink?

  We by our own efforts are failures in life simply because we don't know any better. We don't know how to live decent, upright lives. Hereditary, heredity has very little to do with the shaping of our lives. The main causes of why we are what we are is because of our improper teaching, lack of knowledge, and our environment.

• 1:11:50Jocko Willink?

  Every man's philosophy is colored by his environment. If you don't want us to rob, rape and murder you, then it is your place to see that the mental and moral misfits are properly taught a sufficient amount of useful and sensible knowledge to put their proper, and put into the proper environment where they can be best fitted to exist in life.

• 1:12:10Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. The nature nurture argument, Panzram. All nurture. It's all how you're raised.

• 1:12:19Jocko Willink?

  He goes on, "I was born a normal human being. My parents were ignorant and through their improper teachings and improper environment, I was gradually led into the wrong way of living. Little by little, from bad to worse, I was sent to reform school at age 11. From that day to this, all of my life has been lived among moral and mental misfits. All of my associates, all of my surroundings, the atmosphere of deceit, treachery, brutality, degeneracy, hypocrisy, and everything that is bad and nothing that is good.

• 1:12:53Jocko Willink?

  It is unnatural that I should have absorbed these things and I have become what I am today, a treacherous, degenerate, brutal, savage, human, devoid of all decent feeling, absolutely without conscience, moral, pity, sympathy, principle, or any single good trait. Why am I what I am? I'll tell you why. I did not make myself what I am. Others had the making of me."

• 1:13:24Jocko Willink?

  Everyone else's fault.

• 1:13:28Jocko Willink?

  And I'm not in the power to control it. Right? I mean, at this point, he recognizes what he is, but he doesn't make any effort to reform himself.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of those two, like even with extreme ownership, right? When you're working with a team, when you say it's easy to blame others. And especially when it is their fault at certain times. It's like their fault that this happened or that happened. It's like a philosophy, right?

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  It's like an approach. It's a certain approach where if you say, okay, you know, whatever. It's their fault that this happened or whatever.

• 1:14:09Jocko Willink?

  It's really hard to come up with a situation when you're a leader of a team and it's the team's fault.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Jocko Willink?

  I haven't been able to come up with one lately.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, and, and to say it's

• 1:14:20Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you can.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is it is, well, okay, we'll go with this guy.

• 1:14:26Jocko Willink?

  A guy, a guy on Twitter.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:29Jocko Willink?

  He said, hey, man. Why are you giving all this hate to the machine gunners shooting outside their field of fire? Cause I use that example a lot.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:36Jocko Willink?

  Hey, the machine gunner shoots out of, outside his field of fire.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:40Jocko Willink?

  That's the machine gunner's fault, right? No. And I, I said to him, hey, man, I don't hate machine gunners. I hate the officers that blame the machine gunner when the machine gunner doesn't know where he's supposed to be shooting.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:49Jocko Willink?

  That's not a machine gunner's fault.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Jocko Willink?

  That's your fault, boss.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. So.

• 1:14:53Jocko Willink?

  So continue on about the situation that you're trying to refer to.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  So I, I

• 1:14:58Jocko Willink?

  Cause this is like a typical little thing that I'll hear from people. It's like, well, you know, sometimes I gotta take ownership, even though it's really there.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:04Jocko Willink?

  If that's what you think, you're wrong.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:06Jocko Willink?

  So you're wrong.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  Okay. I dig it. But that, and cause because right now I'm not saying about whose fault it is. That's not, that's not the point I'm trying to make. It's more that he's right. It is because of them. Like they, or the way his parents raised him did cause him to be like this. It caused him to be like this. Didn't cause him to be like, it didn't like his parents raising him didn't, um, make him, you know, sodomize that kid or whatever. He didn't, they didn't make him do it. But their raid, the way they raised him caused him, just cause and effect, straight up, caused him to be like that, quote unquote.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Now, it's his fault. Yes. It's his fault that he's doing all these things, you know? Cause you can just not, you can not do it. That's possible to just not do it that day or at all, whatever. So yeah, as far as fault and blaming, yes. Okay.

• 1:15:57Jocko Willink?

  You're going Sam Harris free will on me.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Well. See, uh, the thing is, I mean, I guess what I'm saying is like, if you don't go into the

• 1:16:06Jocko Willink?

  Lack of free will.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, lack of free will. No, well, not necessarily. I'm just basically isolating the blaming part of it. And then the cause and effect part of it, you know, kind of thing, because in that case, he's, he's right. Like there, what he's saying is correct, as long as he's not saying, and it's their fault and it's not my fault. I'm not, you know.

• 1:16:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh, he is saying that.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Yes. Okay. So, so push that aside. He's right.

• 1:16:30Jocko Willink?

  I did not make myself what I am. Others had the making of me. It's everyone else's fault that I'm like this.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's, that's not extreme ownership right there.

• 1:16:38Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:16:40Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Go cause an effect on them.

• 1:16:43Jocko Willink?

  Here's my point. Here's my point. Cause this is not, this is a gray area, right? We're in a gray area. Here's the problem. If he looks at it, if the only lens that he looks at it through is this is everyone else's fault. And he's not to blame, then guess what? He's not going to make any changes. If he had a little bit, if he just looked at the situation and said, you know what? All these things happened.

• 1:17:11Jocko Willink?

  But some of this is because of me. Some of this is because of the actions that I've taken. And I can now change my behavior. So I don't stay in this mode of operating right now. That's the difference. And he never makes that change. He never makes that, that different. He never sees it that way. The only thing he sees is that it's everyone else's fault. And when you, this is the thing, he, he goes, you can see it gradually increases. He's, he's going from like, oh, I just hate this teachers and, and I just hate the, the wardens. And, and eventually he hates everybody because it's everyone else's fault. Even people he doesn't even know because they're a member of the human race. He hates them.

• 1:17:56Jocko Willink?

  That's why personal responsibility is so important to teach the kids.

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Yes, sir, it is.

• 1:18:01Jocko Willink?

  So important to teach the kids.

• 1:18:05Jocko Willink?

  And that's one thing I think I learned. I mean, obviously, I got some of it from my parents, but it was really crystal clear in the, when I came, when I came in the military, because it's black and white, that the gray area is gone. When you go through some kind of military indoctrination, the gray area is gone. You mess this up, it's your fault, and you're gonna get punished for it.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. But you still get guys, right?

• 1:18:24Jocko Willink?

  For sure, for sure.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  Drill sergeant is rioting me, or whatever.

• 1:18:27Jocko Willink?

  Or, you know, Billy should have done this. Jones should have done that. It's like, okay, but it doesn't matter, because you're gonna pay the man.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter.

• 1:18:37Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. "I have only a little knowledge, but I have as much intelligence as the average person, and I know I was taught wrong. I could have been taught properly, and if I had been, I sure feel I would have led a far different life than I have done. You are to blame more so than I."

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Straight up.

• 1:18:56Jocko Willink?

  Straight up. You. He's talking to us. Talking to the general human, the race of human beings. "That's my belief. If you are going to go on teaching others as you have taught me, then you must suffer the same as I."

• 1:19:16Jocko Willink?

  Here we go. He is, at this point, on trial. And this is from, like, I think this is one of the ones from a newspaper clipping or a report, but it's another part. This is, so this is in Panzram's journal. This is some of the additional information. Back to the book. "On the stand, Panzram's eyes slid toward the table where his pistol and burglar tools lay. Prosecutor Collins whispered to an assistant who hurried over and removed the exhibits to a safer place. The arms of the witness chair disappeared under Panzram's huge hands as he faced the jury, ignoring everyone else in the courtroom. You people got me here,

• 1:19:57Jocko Willink?

  charged with housebreaking and larceny. I'm guilty. I broke in and I stole. What I didn't steal, I smashed. If the owner had come home, I would have knocked his brains out."

• 1:20:08Jocko Willink?

  Panzram's eyes took on this estranged depth as he watched the jury. There's something else you ought to know. While you were trying me here, I was trying all of you too. I found you guilty. Some of you I've executed. If I live, I'll execute some more of you. I hate the whole human race, he said evenly. A juror gasped. Panzram's round head suddenly swung toward the prosecutor, who looked alert and suspicious. You think I'm playing crazy, don't you? I'm not. I know right from wrong. No delusions. I don't hear anything you don't hear. My conscience doesn't bother me. I have no conscience. I believe the whole human race should be exterminated.

• 1:20:52Jocko Willink?

  I'll do my best to do it every chance I get.

• 1:20:57Jocko Willink?

  The courtroom was now numb as Panzram turned to the jurors once more. Now I've done my duty. You do yours.

• 1:21:12Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:21:17Jocko Willink?

  He gets a long prison sentence. And when he gets into prison, he actually kills a, uh, one of the civilian workers there in prison. Like a guy that just is like a maintenance guy who runs the laundry. And he's

• 1:21:35Jocko Willink?

  has a beef and kills him. And this is where we start. This is one of the letters. So I talked about the guy, Henry Lesser, who was a guard in one of the prisons he was in, who formed a relationship with him. And he actually says a couple of times that this is the only guy that like, didn't try and take something from. I think the whole thing started off, he gave him like a dollar to buy cigarettes or whatever. And no one, according to him, no one had ever done anything nice for Panzram in his whole life. And this, this guard was the first guy to do it. So he develops a relationship with him.

• 1:22:09Jocko Willink?

  And so they go, they write letters back and forth.

• 1:22:14Jocko Willink?

  And here's the excerpt of one of those many letters back to the book. The real truth of the matter is that I haven't the least desire to reform. Very much the reverse of that is true. I would not reform if the front gate was open right now and I was. And if I was given a million dollars when I stepped out. I have no desire to do good or to be good. I am just as mean now as I can be. And the only reason I am no worse is because I lack the power and the proper opportunity for meanness. If I had the power and the opportunities, then I would soon show you what real meanness was. You overlook the fact that the law and a great many people have been trying their damnedest for 25 years to reform me.

• 1:22:57Jocko Willink?

  I am tired of having people try to reform me. What I want to do is reform them. And I think the best way to reform them is to put them out of their misery. It took me 36 years to be like I am now. Then how do you figure that I could if I wanted to change from black to white in the twinkling of an eye?

• 1:23:25Jocko Willink?

  Another letter. Same theme. I have no desire to reform under such conditions as would be required of me the way the laws of this country are today. I do not care to live any longer if I must live in prison. I would far rather die and go to hell if that's where people like me go after death. I've very thoroughly considered this matter and I assure you now what I say is the truth. I have confessed 21 different cold blooded premeditated murders, hundreds of cases of arson, burglaries, robberies, rapes and other crimes. The law has by this time looked them up and verified the truth of my various confessions.

• 1:24:05Jocko Willink?

  My philosophy of life is such that very few people ever get and so deeply ingrained and burned into me that I don't believe I could ever change my beliefs. The things I have done to others, the things I have had done to me by others and the things I have done to them can never be forgotten or forgiven either by me or others. I can't forget and I won't forgive. I couldn't if I wanted to. The law is in the same fix.

• 1:24:38Jocko Willink?

  My belief is that the life without liberty is not worth having. If the law won't kill me, I shall kill myself. I fully realize that I am not fit to live among people in a civilized community. I have no desire to do so. If I had any choice in living any longer, the only way I would consent to do so would be to get clear out and away from all civilized people. I am so set in my ways that I cannot adapt myself to the ways of other people so that the only way for me to do would be to live by myself without any human companionship, whatever.

• 1:25:17Jocko Willink?

  He actually describes this island that he's uh kind of spent a little time on when he was down in South America, that he's like, send me there if you wanted to send me somewhere.

• 1:25:31Jocko Willink?

  Goes back, so now he'd killed that other guy, Warnke, um, the civilian, and now he's going to trial for that murder.

• 1:25:40Jocko Willink?

  And this is a newspaper report of that trial.

• 1:25:48Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the commission heard the hard-boiled giant tell of the fun which he received in killing a man, and there isn't a man in this room I wouldn't kill. The cruel, visaged, steel-eyed man told the commission. "I'm mad, plenty mad right now. I don't believe there's any good in any man. I'd like to have the opportunity to go away, gain power and brains, and then I'd like to kill off the rest of the world," the convict said.

• 1:26:15Jocko Willink?

  Dr. Perry asked the giant if he believed himself better than the rest of mankind. "Hell, no," was the reply. "I've checked up on myself lately, and I know that I'm probably worse than the rest of you. I have no desire to live. If you would hang me, my troubles would be over, and I would be better off."

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  But don't you fear hellfire? A member of the commission inquired. You haven't been able to prove to me that there is such a thing, Panzram answered. The man boasted in court of killing 21 persons and vowed that when his parent were his parents living, he would kill them, quote, for bringing me into the world.

• 1:26:52Jocko Willink?

  There are two things in this world that count as powerful, money and knowledge. If I could get enough money, I would buy brains because brains are for sale. I could get a brainy chemist and I would have them prepare me a lot of poison gas and germs with these, I would be able to exterminate a great mass of human beings. Then I would kill myself. Society should build a great monument because I have never propagated my kind.

• 1:27:20Jocko Willink?

  So that's what his little excerpt of what his trial was like this, you know, he was done. I mean, he just did not care. Back to the book, and this is the book itself. The court convened again the next morning and the judge, having been given no alternative by the hard rural jury, looked down at the defendant and pronounced him guilty with no mention of life-saving phrase without capital punishment. Panzram had nothing to say concerning the sentence. Hopkins then ordered that he be remanded with to the care of the warden at the federal penitentiary at Leavenworth, there to be confined until the fifth day of September, when between the hours of six and nine o'clock in the morning, you shall be taken to some suitable place within the confines of the penitentiary and hanged by the neck until dead.

• 1:28:07Jocko Willink?

  The judge then announced the 90-day interval to allow for any bill of objection and appeal. Before the defense attorney could speak, Panzram said swiftly, I don't want any attorney to file for a new trial or appeal anything. I am satisfied with the verdict.

• 1:28:27Jocko Willink?

  So while he's now on death row, there's a like a delegation of people that are against capital punishment. And they start fighting to get him off death row. And he writes them a letter. And here's a little part of that letter. On February 1st, 1929, I began serving this sentence at the US Penitentiary at Leavenworth, Kansas. On June 20th, 1929, I murdered one man, a civilian employee of the prison by the name of Warnke. And at the same time and place, I also attempted to murder a dozen other men, both guards and convicts. The only reason I did not kill them was also because I couldn't catch them. If I had given, if I'm given another trial, or if the death sentence should be commuted

• 1:29:12Jocko Willink?

  to life imprisonment, either in penitentiary or an insane asylum, it will be against my will. And then he goes on to try to explain to them because he doesn't want them to think that he's crazy. Because if he's crazy, then he's not, he's going to get it's, you know, insane asylum or, you know, reason of insanity. Back to the book, I shall try and convince you that I'm quite sane at this time. I am at this time 38 years old, a big, powerful man, strong in both body and mind. My physical fitness is not as good as it once was, but my mental facilities are unimpaired in any way. I've never used drugs of any kind or any type.

• 1:29:51Jocko Willink?

  I am, I am and always have been a very moderate drinker of liquor, practically a total abstainer. I've never taken any disease of any kind, which would have the tendency to weaken my intellect. I have never been addicted to any habits of sexual excesses of any kind over which I didn't have complete control of myself. I choose to die here and now by being hanged by the neck until I'm dead. I prefer that I die that way. And if I have a soul and if that soul should burn in hell for a million years, still I prefer that to a lingering agonizing death in some prison dungeon or a padded cell in a madhouse.

• 1:30:32Jocko Willink?

  I do not believe that being hanged by the neck until dead is a barbaric or inhuman punishment. I look forward to it as a real pleasure and a big relief for me. I do not feel bad or unhappy about it in any way. Every day since I received that sentence, I felt pretty good. I feel good right now and I believe that when my last hour comes, I will dance out of my dungeon and onto the scaffold with a smile on my face and happiness in my heart. Another reason why I believe that this sentence should be carried out is because I believe it is justice. And I am quite sincere when I say that this is the first and only time in my life of battling with the law that I ever did get justice from the law.

• 1:31:11Jocko Willink?

  One other thing I am going to tell you before I stop this letter, and that is this. The only thanks that you or your kind will ever get from me for your efforts on my behalf is that I wish you all had one neck and that I had my hands on it.

• 1:31:26Jocko Willink?

  I would sure put you out of your misery, just the same as I have done with numbers of other people.

• 1:31:33Jocko Willink?

  I have no desire whatever to reform myself. My only desire is to reform people who try to reform me. And I believe that the only way to do reform to people is to kill them.

• 1:31:48Jocko Willink?

  My motto is rape them all, rob them all, and kill them all. I am very truly yours, Carl Panzram.

• 1:32:09Jocko Willink?

  Another

• 1:32:13Jocko Willink?

  letter, I think it was the next to the last letter that he wrote to Lesser.

• 1:32:18Jocko Willink?

  Henry Lesser, he says, "I had no choice about coming into this world in nearly thirty, nearly all of my thirty-eight years and it have had very little to say and do about how I should live my life. People have driven me into doing everything I have ever done."

• 1:32:32Jocko Willink?

  Now the time has come when I refuse to be driven any further. So again, I've just done, I've only done what I've done because of what other people have done to me. That's not on me.

• 1:32:44Jocko Willink?

  Zero responsibility. Everything I've ever done is because of other people.

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 1:32:52Jocko Willink?

  Ever.

• 1:32:54Jocko Willink?

  It's a slippery slope that you just tried to step on a couple of minutes ago.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  Yes, it is actually in.

• 1:33:00Jocko Willink?

  You're thinking about it, aren't you?

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and but I'm not wrong. Because I'm not talking about the blame. I'm talking about cause and effect. But here's the thing, though. Cause and effect is kind of like, it's easy to start blaming, you know, you caused this. See what I'm saying? Technically, I want to split hairs, but technically, there's a difference.

• 1:33:26Jocko Willink?

  My point is, if you have the, and this, this, I mean, I work with people all the time, and this is the, the most important transition that people make in their brain. Is whether you're a business leader, whether you're talking about your personal life, whether you're talking about the, the family, whatever you're talking about. The transition that you make from doing what you're saying right now, which is like, well, it's actually their fault. And if that's in the back of your mind. Okay, if that's in the back of your mind, like, okay. The problem is it grows. The problem is you use that. The problem is, next thing you know, it's not just that their fault, it's this that's their fault. And it's the other thing that's their fault. And it's my team's fault. And it's a, and I, it's not my fault.

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, just to be clear, though, I'm not saying the fault part of it. The fault, fault and the blaming, that part of it literally has nothing to do with it.

• 1:34:19Jocko Willink?

  So what are you saying?

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  Cause and effect, they're two different things. There's, look, put it this way, look, okay. And I used to kind of say this as a joke where, I don't know, let's say I did something, right? And then I'd be like, well, it's not my fault. It's, um, you know, my parents' fault for having me. Oh, but it's their fault. They're, actually, it's my grandparents' fault for having them. Oh, no, it's the, you know, my great grand, you know, and you start just blaming every little factor that contributed to this result, every little factor.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Here's it. So basically to to to kind of break that apart, it's like, yeah, if my parents didn't have me, this wouldn't have happened. It's true. It's true. But the thing is, you can't just start point blame as far as assigning blame goes. I'm not assigning blame if I'm saying, hey, this is a factor or whatever, unless I'm doing it as a joke. You see what I'm saying?

• 1:35:09Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  So it's like, okay, so if one you do cross the line to start assigning blame. That's when you can't be like, okay, it's everything else. You gotta blame yourself. But it let's say you're not assigning blame. You're just maybe analyzing it from an objective perspective. See what I'm saying? You can identify all kinds of causes, all kinds of causes. See what I'm saying? And they're probably true.

• 1:35:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  But not having anything to do with causing blame or or assigning blame or saying whose fault it is. See what I'm saying?

• 1:35:39Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:35:40Speaker 01

  Okay, it's just a another example of how like you or we, whatever. When I talk to you a lot of the time, sometimes I'll you will take a scenario and I'll just sort of marvel at the different working parts of this scenario like, oh, isn't it interesting how this is this and this is this, but you could do this and look at it this way, too. Even though it has nothing to do with me, you know, and it has nothing to do with any kind of actions to be taken or nothing like that. It's essentially just analyzing the scenario and being interested in it. Versus you, you always look at the scenario like, okay, yeah, cool. That's cool. You analyze it. But what do you do? You know, your attitude is a real take action kind of kind of approach. So I think that's where I think that's where we're getting some

• 1:36:26Speaker 01

  some misfires. See what I'm saying? You think that it's like, I want to base some action to be taken upon the way I'm looking at it. When it requires no action, it's just the way to sort of look at it, you know? But if you want to take action like, okay, so who do we blame? That's that's the beginning of taking action in a way. Who do we blame? What do we got to fix? Who do we got to fix? Whatever? To move forward, to fix the situation to, you know, whatever, rectify it. Then you gotta be like, okay, I gotta identify the problem that I can change. And then, yeah, in that case, then yeah, that problem's gonna be yourself. It's the best way.

• 1:37:05Jocko Willink?

  And if it's not, then you're not going to solve anything.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:08Jocko Willink?

  You just consider and blame people.

• 1:37:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. But does that make sense?

• 1:37:13Jocko Willink?

  Maybe.

• 1:37:16Jocko Willink?

  I don't recommend it.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  Nah, yeah. And that's the thing. Yeah, and again, even that saying, I don't recommend it. That's like, that's super indicative of just like, yeah, you don't recommend that as a problem solving technique. That's a, that's a take action approach right there.

• 1:37:33Speaker 01

  See what I'm saying? It's kind of like if we came to a stoplight and then the stoplight's red. I'm like, wow, isn't that red stoplight super nice? Like, it's a beautiful color, red. And you're gonna be like, yeah, like, but it means to stop, so we're stopped. I'm like, no, I know, but isn't it kind of beautiful? Then it turns green. Wow, isn't that a beautiful green light? And you're like, yeah, but it's, it means to go. And I'm like, cool, but it's a pretty nice shade of green. See what I'm saying? See what I'm saying? It's like two different perspectives.

• 1:38:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  And then, of course, you'd roll through the green light and, you know.

• 1:38:09Jocko Willink?

  I'd go get after it.

• 1:38:12Jocko Willink?

  All right, we'll leave that one at that. All right. Um, obviously, the attempts to save Carl Panzram were ceased and

• 1:38:23Jocko Willink?

  here's how his life ends, according to this book. At Leavenworth, the lights of the isolation had burned into a pale gray dawn on September 5th, when Panzram heard the distant, distant rattle of footsteps. It was not quite 6 o'clock.

• 1:38:41Jocko Willink?

  Guard Ballard went over to the steel door leading to an outer corridor and peered through the small barred window. Warden White's voice was heard and the guard turned a brass key in the lock. The door swung open. White entered the isolation at the head of the procession of some 20 persons, including guards and newspaper reporters. Immediately behind the warden was Marshal McKeever, McKeever, and the tall government hangman, carrying the leather harness over one arm.

• 1:39:14Jocko Willink?

  White stopped in front of Panzram's cell.

• 1:39:18Jocko Willink?

  The spectators pressed themselves discreetly against the opposite wall as Panzram faced them, searching through the wire mesh with his hostile eyes.

• 1:39:28Jocko Willink?

  He saw two men in clerical garb on the fringes of the crowd and at once began to roar at White.

• 1:39:36Jocko Willink?

  Are there any Bible-backed cocksuckers in here?

• 1:39:41Jocko Willink?

  I thought you might change your mind, White apologized. These gentlemen came a long way to offer you comfort. Get him out, shouted Panzram. I don't mind being hanged, but I don't need any Bible-backed hypocrites around me. Run him out, Warden, or you'll have one hell of a time getting me out of this cell. Every man I get a hand on is going to the hospital.

• 1:40:04Jocko Willink?

  White knew Panzram was within a condemned man's traditional rights regarding witnesses of his own execution.

• 1:40:14Jocko Willink?

  The disappointed clergymen were escorted out. All right, Panzram said, let's get going. What are we stalling for? White motioned the guards and newsmen to proceed to the exercise yard as Ballard opened Panzram's cell. Panzram helped his escorts faster than fasten the leather corset. Anything you want to say, asked the hangman fumbling with a strap. Panzram snapped impatiently. Yes, hurry it up, you Hoosier bastard. I could hang a dozen men while you're fooling around.

• 1:40:48Jocko Willink?

  In the yard, the newsman took hurried notes. The scaffold looked strange and somehow unexpected. Duke glistened on the boards that had the raw, temporary look of a structure erected for a county fair. In less than a minute, the back door of the isolation opened and Panzram emerged between Ballard and the hangman. Panzram was almost running ahead, half-dragging the taller, his taller escorts. White and the marshal hurried behind, trailed by officers trying to look dignified as they ran.

• 1:41:22Jocko Willink?

  In the confusion, the spectators parted into two lines as they procession, as the procession raced Pelmel in their direction. Panzram's face was rigid and looked straight ahead, his eyes fixed on the rope.

• 1:41:35Jocko Willink?

  Only at the foot of the stairs did he seem to notice the transfixed onlookers. He paused, looked slowly around, and spat twice. Then his face was forward again. Everyone's nostrils inhaled the sweet smell of new oak and hemp, and everyone's eyes followed him up the thirteen steps which he felt with his feet.

• 1:41:56Jocko Willink?

  He hurried up the gallows as toward the gate, pulling Ballard and the hangman with him.

• 1:42:05Jocko Willink?

  Reporters who had witnessed this event were surprised by its swiftness and their accounts were in conflict as to the time and exact detail.

• 1:42:14Jocko Willink?

  There was uncertainty as to whether Panzram had been able to spit on the executioner as he had promised he would. The reporters notebooks had hung limp during the swift adjustment of the rope, the exploding sound of the opening doors, and the swift downward stroke of the body.

• 1:42:31Jocko Willink?

  Later they recalled the mist which had settled on the yard and the indistinct figures of guards watching from a tower on the wall. The prison had been quiet, the first bell was not yet scheduled to ring for an hour.

• 1:42:46Jocko Willink?

  Reporters had left the same way they came in and were relieved to find themselves outside the walls.

• 1:42:55Jocko Willink?

  Records of official entry regarding the death of Carl Panzram are brief. Dr. Justin K. Fuller, one of the two doctors in attendance, stepped forward to the stretched body underneath the gallows, placed a stethoscope gently on the chest, and palpitated the neck. Later he dictated his report to a prison clerk.

• 1:43:18Jocko Willink?

  Medical certificate of death, Carl Panzram. I hereby certify that I examine the body of Carl Panzram in accordance with the directions of the Surgeon General of the U.S. Public Health Service and Attorney General at U.S. Penitentiary, Leavenworth, Kansas, on September 5th, 1930, and pronounced him dead at 6:18 a.m.

• 1:43:41Jocko Willink?

  I found the cause of death to be dislocation cervical vertebra, strangulation, legal execution.

• 1:43:54Jocko Willink?

  And so ended the life of Carl Panzram on September 5th, 1930. And while Panzram died evil, as we see, certainly did not die with him.

• 1:44:17Jocko Willink?

  It still walks among us today.

• 1:44:26Jocko Willink?

  And as we've been going back and forth on, obviously Pan's Ram did not get many benefits in life.

• 1:44:40Jocko Willink?

  But that does not excuse his actions.

• 1:44:46Jocko Willink?

  And we are responsible for what we do. We are responsible for our lives and if someone's had horrible things happen to them, if they've seen horrible things, if they've done horrible things.

• 1:45:05Jocko Willink?

  It's still important that you don't become those horrible things, that you don't propagate those horrible things.

• 1:45:19Jocko Willink?

  Instead,

• 1:45:22Jocko Willink?

  be the hero, be the savior that absorbs those things, those horrible things and passes on good.

• 1:45:34Jocko Willink?

  And you do that,

• 1:45:37Jocko Willink?

  you do that by treating people with respect and being just kind to other human beings.

• 1:45:49Jocko Willink?

  And it's one of those things that I thought about this one character, this Henry Lesser, this guard is the first person that that Pan's Ram ever thought did something nice to him. And who knows if that had happened earlier, maybe it could have been a teacher at the state school.

• 1:46:12Jocko Willink?

  Maybe that's what tips someone

• 1:46:18Jocko Willink?

  towards the good.

• 1:46:22Jocko Willink?

  You know, are you that person? Can you be that person that sways someone from doing evil to doing good simply? Through some sympathetic words, some compassionate gesture.

• 1:46:39Jocko Willink?

  Think about that. You might be that person.

• 1:46:46Jocko Willink?

  I might be that person. We might be that person that sets the good example.

• 1:46:56Jocko Willink?

  By being nice, by being kind.

• 1:47:02Jocko Willink?

  And here's the dichotomy, at the same time, you gotta be strong enough to stand up to people that think might makes right.

• 1:47:15Jocko Willink?

  You gotta be strong enough to face the malevolent force of evil.

• 1:47:25Jocko Willink?

  And you have to recognize

• 1:47:31Jocko Willink?

  that that force is everywhere.

• 1:47:35Jocko Willink?

  That, that satanic force that is waiting

• 1:47:43Jocko Willink?

  to prey on the weak.

• 1:47:50Jocko Willink?

  And if we don't fight it, then that force is gonna win.

• 1:47:57Jocko Willink?

  So we

• 1:48:00Jocko Willink?

  cannot stand down.

• 1:48:05Jocko Willink?

  And I think that's all I've got for tonight.

• 1:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Kind of a rough one.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  It, when you think about it, this is like, this is pretty psycho, like pretty psychotic, sick and evil for sure. But I don't know if it was just the way he, it is, it is, I do know, it's the way he presented it was like,

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  it wasn't like as tragic as, I don't know, the other stuff that I've heard.

• 1:48:46Jocko Willink?

  Let me take a part of it. He wrote it and he became humanized in your head.

• 1:48:53Jocko Willink?

  So you were listening to him talk and you were sympathizing with him and you were understanding the harshness that he went through and you were completely detached and not you didn't humanize any of the victims at all.

• 1:49:08Speaker 01

  Right, yes, that's what it was.

• 1:49:09Jocko Willink?

  Opposite of the beginning when I'm talking about this beautiful girl, Louisa and what she went, you know, you understood her. Go watch some of the videos of that girl.

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:18Jocko Willink?

  She's like, like, just such a nice person.

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:22Jocko Willink?

  Like, just like an angel. And that's what you relate to. So as a, as a person yourself, as a human being yourself, it's very easy for you to get, for you to humanize someone, right? For you to, you listen to Carl Panzer, I mean, you sit here, what he's been through and he's telling it from his perspective and all he's telling, a little 11 year old boy, you don't know anything about that boy.

• 1:49:39Speaker 01

  Right, just some arbitrary.

• 1:49:40Jocko Willink?

  Arbitrary. Doesn't even barely exist. It's a word. Boy, that's all it is. But it's not. It's not. That's a little kid. That's a little kid.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's exactly it. That's exactly what it was. You, you're going through his struggles and sure, he's not, well, yeah, and you know, he's talking about his anger and everyone did say, and you're like, dang, okay, dang, that's, you know, he's, he's a mad guy and sure, I'm not, you know, I'm not siding with him, but it's, it's more like you're just getting it from his, his perspective, you know? And he dies and you're like, well, he deserved it. Yeah, yeah. But if, yeah, if they told that, the whole story of like, I don't know, any one of those victims, you'd be like, dang, man, this is heavy, dark. And he's sort of like, he didn't go into any kind of graphic detail. You'd just be like, and I committed sodomy. In fact, I was like, bro, how are you even doing that? You're just, I just sort of committed,

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  tried to commit sod- like, how do you do that? You know, you just, hey, come here and let me commit sodomy on you? I mean, I don't know. That's what he made it sound like.

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  200 pound dude against an 11 year old boy.

• 1:50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, but even like the, you know, his inmates or whatever, like everyone who's just, and the point is there, he just sort of just.

• 1:50:50Jocko Willink?

  Well, he's preying on the weak, he says all the time. He's just picking a guy that's 132 pounds.

• 1:50:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, yeah.

• 1:50:57Jocko Willink?

  And he's 200 pounds?

• 1:51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, six feet 200. Yeah, you know, he was.

• 1:51:02Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what the, what the deal is, but like, where I grew up in New England, the houses, like the ceilings are lower and the doors are smaller because people were smaller.

• 1:51:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:14Jocko Willink?

  Back in the day. And this is 100 years ago. But or whatever ninety years ago. But people are a little bit smaller. You know, so him at six foot one ninety is kind of like a yoked dude.

• 1:51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, plus with all that, you know, years of hard labor.

• 1:51:34Jocko Willink?

  Swinging an eighteen pound hammer.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, he was strong. Yeah, but he just sort of breezes over it, though, you know, there's no graphic details, just sort of, yeah, I just committed some bad crimes.

• 1:51:44Jocko Willink?

  So that's why it's always good to think about the perspective of the other people.

• 1:51:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  It's crazy, man, it's crazy. But, you know, and yeah, he could have, he should have, he should have chose a path is what he should have done like how you said, yeah, you said that, right?

• 1:52:05Jocko Willink?

  Well, more important, I think, because you're gonna have some people out there that are gonna choose the wrong path. They're not, they're not gonna go, they're not gonna go in a good direction. And that's why it's important to be prepared mentally and physically to stand up and face that, man.

• 1:52:23Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:52:24Jocko Willink?

  You got to.

• 1:52:27Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of which.

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  Yes, take some jujitsu, I'll tell you right now, you take some jujitsu, you really decrease the probability of anyone.

• 1:52:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:35Speaker 01

  Attempting sodomy on you.

• 1:52:36Jocko Willink?

  Yes. That is a big help.

• 1:52:38Speaker 01

  Reduce, reduce. Um, anyway. What that means is we're doing jujitsu regardless of our, our, our, what we're trying to defend ourselves from.

• 1:52:50Jocko Willink?

  Jujitsu versus evil, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:52:53Speaker 01

  Yes, it helps.

• 1:52:54Jocko Willink?

  If you, yes, you need all your tools to fight against evil.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, big time.

• 1:52:58Jocko Willink?

  There's evil in the world, confirmed.

• 1:53:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 1:53:01Jocko Willink?

  Live evil in the world right now.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  It's crazy, every once in a while I'll flash, it'll flash in my mind how valuable jujitsu is. Like if you, if someone said, hey, you can, you can never go to the beach ever again.

• 1:53:18Speaker 01

  Or you can never do jujitsu ever again. See what I'm saying? Oh, you, you might have some issues.

• 1:53:25Jocko Willink?

  No, I just think that's funny. How like the two biggest things you can put on the beach and jujitsu.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, you gotta give up one.

• 1:53:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The beach isn't even on my list. I mean, other than to go surfing, but just going to the beach for you is a thing. For me, it's not really a thing.

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, well. Put it this way, like I probably could, I'd trade a lot, I'd give up a lot to keep jujitsu if it was in.

• 1:53:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, here's something.

• 1:53:53Jocko Willink?

  If you know some jujitsu, if you know some jujitsu, if you know more jujitsu than most other people around you, that's a real beneficial thing.

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:02Jocko Willink?

  Can you? And it's funny because if you don't know anything, you're a little bit ignorant. In fact, you're a lot ignorant and you don't even know what you don't know. And so you're sitting in, you're, you're walking across a parking lot, right? And it's 10 o'clock at night and someone comes to bother you and you think in your mind like, I'll just do this and this and you don't know anything.

• 1:54:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:22Jocko Willink?

  It's a complete, it's a complete hole in your game and the game of life is what I'm talking about.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  The game of life, yeah, it is.

• 1:54:29Jocko Willink?

  If you know jujitsu and you're walking across 10 o'clock at night and someone's gonna give you a problem, you actually know what to do.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:36Jocko Willink?

  And, and the person that doesn't know anything, they're so far just behind. It's crazy.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  I remember in college where, and I knew how to do a rear naked choke and I like, you know, just from watching UFC one.

• 1:54:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  Two. Never trained an actual jujitsu class, but I remember in college I got into this like fight, right? And we, we ended up not fighting, fighting, but you know, the kind that we started to fight, right? And, but it was nothing, you know.

• 1:55:07Jocko Willink?

  Was it a friend?

• 1:55:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:55:09Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  He was like.

• 1:55:10Jocko Willink?

  Was it a known person? Or just a total random?

• 1:55:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like at a party scenario. No, I didn't know. Um, and.

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  And you know, whatever. It doesn't matter what had got broken up, whatever. And we've continued, you know, our lives. But right now I'm thinking back to like, how much I didn't know, like, what was I even thinking? Like, what was I gonna do? Just sort of throw punches, you know, or something like this? Like, what? Like, even when you do get in a fight and you don't really know any, especially in Jiu Jitsu, it's like, man, you sort of, it's sort of a crap shoot, really. Compared to if you know Jiu Jitsu, it's not a crap shoot. It's like, oh, I'm gonna either decide to do whatever I want kind of thing to this person.

• 1:55:53Jocko Willink?

  If you want to, if you don't train Jiu Jitsu and you want to know what it's like, picture anything that you actually know how to do, like, shoot a basketball, or play basketball. And picture someone that never played before playing against you. That's what's gonna happen.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:12Jocko Willink?

  If you don't know anything.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  Or like, go find someone if you ever can. Find someone who doesn't know how to ride a bike, or skateboard. I guess not everyone knows how to ride a skateboard, but a bike and say, hey, let's race to the end of the block on this bike. And that person doesn't even know how to ride.

• 1:56:27Jocko Willink?

  They've never been on a bike before.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:28Jocko Willink?

  They have zero chance of beating you.

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  They just say, I know, rats like that. Anyway.

• 1:56:33Jocko Willink?

  So, so train some Jiu Jitsu.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  Train some Jiu Jitsu. Go take some classes, Brad. Just go, go learn how to ride that bike.

• 1:56:38Jocko Willink?

  Right now, right now, in America, you can train Jiu Jitsu in so many different places. It's amazing.

• 1:56:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is very amazing.

• 1:56:46Jocko Willink?

  There's amazing places to train Jiu Jitsu. So go train some Jiu Jitsu.

• 1:56:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And when you do so, you want to do gi and no gi. So when you get a gi, what gi do we get? We all know. If you don't already, origin gi. Go to originmaine.com. They got rash guards on there as well. Joggers as well. Shirts.

• 1:57:06Jocko Willink?

  Supplements.

• 1:57:07Speaker 01

  Supplements, of course. And that's a good one, too, where, and I took your, but you know, okay, remember I told you like, oh, yeah, I didn't take joint warfare for like a few days? And you're like, what? Why not? I was like, ah, because I just, I don't know, I forgot or whatever. And you're, here's the thing, I admitted something to myself. Sometimes when I didn't, back then, when I didn't take it, it's not that I forgot. It's just that I would be like, oh, I'll take one tomorrow or something. Like, I'm literally, I was literally too lazy to just go in the pantry right here now, by the way, like three, four feet away.

• 1:57:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:41Speaker 01

  Get it, open it up.

• 1:57:42Jocko Willink?

  Put it in your routine now.

• 1:57:44Speaker 01

  Bro, yes, and this is how I put it into my routine now. It's like, there's no way I'm gonna be able to accept the fact that I'm too lazy to spend literally twenty seconds, literally. And, you know, and take some pills.

• 1:57:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  There's like no way I can accept that.

• 1:58:00Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I'm glad I'm not trapped in your brain with you.

• 1:58:04Jocko Willink?

  I'm kind of am, I guess, a little bit. For at least two hours a week, I'm a little bit trapped in your brain.

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  Well, you're the one who's correcting it, cuz I'm like, no way, cuz you're like, dude, just do it in your routine and you make it sound so easy, cuz it doesn't feel that easy, but then I'm thinking like, wait, it is that easy, really? I'm just not allowing it.

• 1:58:21Jocko Willink?

  So you put it by your toothbrush or whatever?

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  No, I keep it in the pantry, bro. Fifteen seconds.

• 1:58:26Jocko Willink?

  Oh, but you just do it?

• 1:58:27Speaker 01

  Just do it, yeah.

• 1:58:29Jocko Willink?

  Do a little extra.

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, very little extra. Anyway.

• 1:58:33Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  Joint warfare, krill oil, these are the ones that I'm talking about that are in my routine every single day. Joints.

• 1:58:41Jocko Willink?

  Also, uh, discipline, which, if you don't know, we have a new flavor of discipline out. It's called Tropic Thunder.

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  Yep, I got mine.

• 1:58:51Jocko Willink?

  And what, let's, let's be real and let's be honest. What it, what it is?

• 1:58:58Speaker 01

  Pina colada.

• 1:58:59Jocko Willink?

  Is pina colada. But I couldn't have something out there called pina colada. Come on, man.

• 1:59:05Speaker 01

  Wait, Tropic Thunder, isn't that a movie?

• 1:59:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:08Jocko Willink?

  It's a good movie. It's Leif Babin's favorite movie of all time. No, actually, I don't, but it's right up there. Leif quotes that movie a lot.

• 1:59:14Speaker 01

  Alright, there you go.

• 1:59:15Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna tell you right here.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  I haven't seen it.

• 1:59:17Jocko Willink?

  You haven't seen Tropic Thunder? It's definitely fun.

• 1:59:19Speaker 01

  I know what movie that is, though. I think Robert Downey Jr., right?

• 1:59:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but the most important character in there is Tom Cruise's character. He's really, really funny. Les Goodman, I think, is his name. Anyways, uh, so we couldn't call it, in clear conscience, we couldn't call it pina colada. That's just wrong, right? No, not happening. It's an alcoholic beverage. We're not doing it. It's kind of a. Kind of a foo foo. Is that a good word? Kind of a foo foo.

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:59:49Jocko Willink?

  Like, you ever been to an Italian restaurant? Or like where they where it's real, it's real nice, it's too nice. Like they don't have like, hey, can I just get some chicken parmigiana over here? And when they bring you some food, it's really small.

• 2:00:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it has like a long like name.

• 2:00:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, in a different language.

• 2:00:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know, the kind they put extras on the name, you know, you know, fresh caught from the Appalachian blah, blah, blah in the title, you know, it's like that kind.

• 2:00:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but there's never very much food. The longer the title, the less food you're gonna get. That's that's a good rule right there. So couldn't go pina colada to foo foo. We went Tropic Thunder for Leif Babin and get his Tropic Thunder on. And then don't forget about Molk.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  Additional protein.

• 2:00:37Jocko Willink?

  Additional protein and slash dessert.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:41Jocko Willink?

  Because it will fulfill your dessert desire.

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:45Jocko Willink?

  When you get done with the rib eye steak.

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  So what's the gain like when you, you know, when you're going to, when you lift weights to elicit gains, right? You have to have a certain.

• 2:00:54Jocko Willink?

  Gains with a Z?

• 2:00:58Speaker 01

  You gotta eat what certain amount of protein, right? It's like point seven or point six.

• 2:01:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, or just one gram.

• 2:01:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, but here's actually what I learned with one gram. Any protein like any macro they eat too much of gets turned to fat and protein protein scene gets turns to sugar first. From what I understand, so you can't eat too much protein. Here's how you eat too much protein. If you're going like two grams per body weight, per pound of body.

• 2:01:29Jocko Willink?

  What about nine grams per body, per pound of body weight?

• 2:01:31Speaker 01

  I think that's fine. So here's a good way to do it. So in the morning I make an omelet, right? With egg whites. And it's good, good protein, clean, whatever.

• 2:01:43Jocko Willink?

  Some of the best.

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  But when you kind of, if you're starting, which I kind of started to measure these things or keep track of, okay, how many calories am I really eating? Whatever. So I realized there's not that much protein in a regular size, even a double sized egg white omelet with no cheese and nothing. So boom, you make your egg white omelet. Milk train going on the side makes you milk shake boom perfect.

• 2:02:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh milk shake.

• 2:02:10Speaker 01

  Perfect amount of protein is what I'm saying if in fact you're into you know getting stronger and whatnot.

• 2:02:16Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And on top of that, we got Warrior Kid Milk, which is basically gonna take over all milk drinks for children in the very short period of time because everyone wants their kid to be healthy. The kid wants to be healthy and strong and the kid wants something that tastes absolutely amazing. So there you go Warrior Kid Milk.

• 2:02:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Remember like back in the day, what was the fruit Hawaiian punch? Was that only in Hawaii?

• 2:02:47Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  It was just called Hawaiian punch, but tasted like.

• 2:02:52Jocko Willink?

  Hey, are English muffins over in England?

• 2:02:57Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:02:58Jocko Willink?

  Actually, English muffins aren't in England. It's not a British thing.

• 2:03:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like french fries aren't in France, right? They call them like.

• 2:03:05Jocko Willink?

  Pommes frites.

• 2:03:06Speaker 01

  Something else, French. Anyway, you know what I'm saying? You used to drink the Hawaiian punch when you're little. Mouth all red tasted pretty good.

• 2:03:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well.

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  It was super strong. Yeah. But, bro, you can't be giving your kids that like now with the knowledge that yeah, it's like abuse, really.

• 2:03:24Jocko Willink?

  Child abuse.

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:25Jocko Willink?

  And it's not just that. These these regular chocolate milk, what is that? It's just corn syrup in milk.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:32Jocko Willink?

  That's all it is.

• 2:03:34Speaker 01

  And chocolate.

• 2:03:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and chocolate and sugar. But when you get your kid Warrior Kid Milk, guess what? You're making them stronger, smarter, faster, better.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  And it tastes good.

• 2:03:45Jocko Willink?

  And it tastes delicious because kids don't want to drink something that tastes like crap.

• 2:03:49Speaker 01

  No, they don't.

• 2:03:50Jocko Willink?

  Drink something tasty. So yeah, Warrior Kid Milk. All that stuff that we just talked about is at originmaine.com if you want to support.

• 2:03:57Speaker 01

  That's a good stuff.

• 2:03:59Jocko Willink?

  All American made. Throw that in there like it's a no big deal.

• 2:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:03Jocko Willink?

  Go watch some of the videos of of looms being remade.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's good. Also, if you want to represent while on the path, Jaco has a store. It's called Jaco Store. So you go to jacostore.com. This is where you can get shirts and whatnot. Discipline equals freedom.

• 2:04:20Jocko Willink?

  Shirts, t-shirts, rash guards.

• 2:04:22Speaker 01

  Plenty of, yes, other rash guards on there.

• 2:04:25Jocko Willink?

  Truckers hats or.

• 2:04:28Jocko Willink?

  Uh, flex fit hats.

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  Whichever one you want, man, whichever one. I like the flip, flex fit. I'm putting, I'm gonna put a bunch of new stuff on there. A bunch. 2019. It's 2019. By the way, happy new year, brother. Thanks, bro. Isn't it funny? Like, I felt like you felt kind of uncomfortable telling me happy new year. Kind of like it's too like sentimental, like, hey, happy new year, bro.

• 2:04:53Jocko Willink?

  We got work to do. Let's go focus.

• 2:04:56Speaker 01

  All right. New year, new gee.

• 2:05:00Speaker 01

  See what I did there? You know how they say new year, new me?

• 2:05:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, got it.

• 2:05:03Speaker 01

  I saw, I saw that on Twitter, I think. Anyway, um, oh yeah, I'm gonna put a bunch of new stuff there for this year.

• 2:05:09Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Cool. Uh, you can also get Jaco White Tea that comes in either, uh, regular tea form, like I'm drinking, with tea bags, or the can form, like Echo is drinking with the can. And the good thing about it is it's the only beverage in history of the world that's guaranteed 100% to give you an 8,000 pound deadlift. That's 8,000 pounds. Uh, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. Click subscribe. So annoying. Okay, just skip this part. Uh, the Warrior Kid Podcast. That one you should check out. If you don't check out the Warrior Kid Podcast, whether you have kids or not, check it out.

• 2:05:49Jocko Willink?

  Lots of good lessons from Uncle Jake. So do that. And then don't forget about your Warrior Kid soap. And it's not soap for Warrior Kids. It's soap made by a Warrior Kid, Aiden, who's got his own business.

• 2:06:03Jocko Willink?

  At IrishOaksRanch.com.

• 2:06:08Jocko Willink?

  What's that? Like, earth made?

• 2:06:11Speaker 01

  Earth made? What, the soap?

• 2:06:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, he gets like goats. Like, if you want, you want to know the, the source of your, of your stuff? Like, there you go.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  What you say, locally sourced? Well, it's not local technically. Depends on where you are, yeah. But nonetheless, made in America. That's true.

• 2:06:29Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so YouTube, you can also subscribe to the YouTube channel, which is the Jocko Podcast YouTube channel. And our, since you're putting all this new stuff on the store, you're gonna put some new videos up at some point in the, you know, America history?

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  America. Yeah, sure. Uh, yes, I am. Thank you.

• 2:06:47Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I know you were just telling me about one.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:50Jocko Willink?

  You've done this before where you tell me about a video and I never see it for four months.

• 2:06:53Speaker 01

  Well, because like, all right, well, and this one could be one of those cuz it's like, I'm gonna be like pushing it. You know, remember the Warpath one?

• 2:07:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:02Speaker 01

  You know, I pushed it in the music and I was like, hey, should I make a bunch of things crumbling down? Is that gonna be dumb?

• 2:07:10Jocko Willink?

  Let's find out.

• 2:07:11Speaker 01

  We're gonna find, but in the process of doing that, sometimes I'm like, this is kinda dumb. So I gotta change it. So I'm gonna see, I wanna push it just for out of fun, but yeah, okay. I'm gonna try. How about that?

• 2:07:23Jocko Willink?

  More, more videos and also we got psychological warfare, which we have failed. We were going to get out that for the new year. We did not accomplish that. So that's not good. But we will work on it and the current one is available. Psychological Warfare on iTunes, Google Play, MP3 platforms of all kinds where you can get little messages. We'll call from me tracks about how to overcome a particular weakness that you might be dealing with in the moment.

• 2:07:50Speaker 01

  I've thought about this with psychological warfare.

• 2:07:53Speaker 01

  Sometimes like when the weakness creeps in, we don't like wanna fight the weakness.

• 2:07:59Jocko Willink?

  It's like, yeah, like we're like, it's almost like, okay, this is me that you might not be able to, to, to relate.

• 2:08:06Speaker 01

  Cuz you get mad when you feel like weakness. Sometimes weakness will like creep in and I'll look forward to not lifting, you know what I mean? Or, or like, okay, so

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  there's this burger place, right? I'm gonna say which one. And to go to this burger place is a certain burger you can get that's like off the program. You can't.

• 2:08:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:08:31Speaker 01

  It's not a diet burger.

• 2:08:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:34Speaker 01

  So when I, you know, when you're like, oh, should I just stick to the program? But I'm really in the mood for this burger, right? And the weakness creeps in, takes hold. And then you made the decision, all right, hey, I'm gonna slip on the diet right now. I'm back on the plan. I'm black, I'm back on the program tomorrow, but I'm gonna slip right now. When you make that decision in your head, you feel good like, oh, I don't wanna change my mind cuz I'm so looking forward to the burger. See what I'm saying? So it's like one of those things where the reason sometimes people won't list or Actually, this has never happened to me, but I'm imagining the if someone doesn't want to listen to psychological warfare, that's why. Because it's like, oh.

• 2:09:15Jocko Willink?

  They secretly, they don't want to.

• 2:09:17Speaker 01

  They accept it and it's like, you know, and they accept the weakness.

• 2:09:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this again reminds me that I'm glad I'm not trapped inside your head for more than two hours.

• 2:09:27Speaker 01

  It's a daily struggle.

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, psychological is a good one. It helps. It helps. You gotta, you gotta accept the help.

• 2:09:36Jocko Willink?

  All you have to do is press play. That's the point. You gotta, that's what you're saying. You have to press play.

• 2:09:41Speaker 01

  You gotta, there's a little psychological part that you have to accept the fact that you're gonna, you're gonna get a spot. It's like in the gym, right? When you need a spot in the gym, you don't put on some lightweight, you know, you get, if you have regular weight on, you don't need a spot in, cool. But you gotta make the decision to put the heavy weight on there. And then you gotta make the decision to go find someone to spot you. That part is hard for people. That's what I think. That's what I think. But once you get the spot, you got the spot. But you're in no danger of getting buried underneath that that bench. See what I'm saying?

• 2:10:14Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 2:10:15Speaker 01

  That's what psychological warfare is.

• 2:10:18Speaker 01

  Get it on, uh, what, Amazon Music and iTunes, Apple Music, you know, wherever they sell MP3s, that's where you get them. Psychological warfare. It's a good one. Very good one. Also, vary up your workout, man. Get some more workout stuff from onit.com. Go onit.com/jaco. That's where you get it. Got some good stuff on there. Ropes, battle ropes, maces, clubs, kettlebells, of course, the best kettlebells. I mean, I'm the best I've ever used. I've used that many, but I don't even want to try out any other ones because they're the best, in my opinion. And, uh, yeah, a lot of good stuff on there. A lot of good, uh, tips on there as well.

• 2:11:01Speaker 01

  And information anyway on it.com slash Dracula good spot.

• 2:11:05Jocko Willink?

  Also got some books. Um, miking the dragons is out. It's live and we should not ever run out of it again. I printed a lot more. So if you want miking the dragons for you, for your kids, for your neighbor kids, for your library, for your school, order miking the dragons. It is a story that will teach your kids and all children that read it, how to stand up and face their fears.

• 2:11:34Speaker 01

  It's so cool to see all the pictures that people post of like, oh, the kids like, yes, I got my kids for, you know, for Christmas and stuff like that.

• 2:11:43Jocko Willink?

  Also a lot of kids, uh, you know, this is my kid's favorite book. Yeah. This is now my kid's favorite book. That's pretty cool. So super stoked. If you haven't read it, check it out. Miking the dragons. Uh, you can get it on Amazon. Also way the warrior kid and way the warrior kid to Mark's mission. And good news. I had a deadline of finishing way the warrior kid three.

• 2:12:09Jocko Willink?

  By New Year's Day. Guess when I finished it?

• 2:12:11Speaker 01

  New Year's.

• 2:12:12Jocko Willink?

  This morning. Yeah. New Year's Day. I had to go and finish it before I worked out because I was at my deadline. Guess what? Prioritize.

• 2:12:22Speaker 01

  So is your deadline.

• 2:12:23Jocko Willink?

  My dead. Yeah. My deadline to finish the book.

• 2:12:27Speaker 01

  You're good, man.

• 2:12:28Jocko Willink?

  So yeah. So that'll be coming out, but right now get, uh, way the warrior kid and way the warrior kid to Mark's mission. Those are both out. Discipline equals freedom field manual. I know a lot of folks grab that for Christmas. Appreciate it. Appreciate most that you're spreading the word to people that you know, little gift. Give someone the gift of discipline. That's what I'm talking about. If you want the, the audio version, it's not on audible. It's on Amazon music, iTunes, Google play and other MP3 platforms. Of course we have extreme ownership.

• 2:12:58Jocko Willink?

  Which was recently made some kind of chart for the audiobook. Leif Leif Babin and I reading the audiobook. Well, me and the Texas Batman reading the audiobook. And we also read the audiobook for the the follow up to that book, which is called the dichotomy of leadership, which I kicked off today with a tiny little excerpt.

• 2:13:21Jocko Willink?

  That's the follow on book. And I think, yeah, some people think it's better. Interesting. It makes sense that it is because now we've written more books and a little more experience to learn more. So find out for yourself dichotomy of leadership. That one's available. We also got Echelon Front. That's our leadership consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. That's what we do. If you need help with the leadership at your organization. And if you have any kind of issue, whatever kind of issue you have, it's a leadership problem. It's not a problem of HR. It's a leadership problem. It's not a problem in the finance department. It's a it's a leadership problem. It's not an operational problem. It's a leadership problem. The problem that you have in your organization is a leadership problem.

• 2:14:04Jocko Willink?

  If you need help with that, go to echelon front dot com for details. Also, we got the muster. The muster is now live. We got Chicago. We got Denver. We got Sydney. If you want to come to the muster, Leadership Conference, extremeownership.com. All of the musters have sold out and all the musters will sell out. So if you want to come get there early, I think there's maybe a ticket or two left for the live podcast that we are recording January 9th in New York City. If you want to come to that, try and jump on and buy a ticket real quick because it's real close to sold out. Look forward to seeing there also EF online.

• 2:14:47Jocko Willink?

  So we just launched this. What this is, this is an online interactive leadership training source. It's myself and the the rest of the Echelon Front training team put this together. Wanted to be able to reach more people. Some of the, you know, this kind of spawned from organizations that we work with where they have. Tens of thousands, or even in some cases, hundreds of thousands of employees and they want us to train everybody on the fundamental principles of combat leadership. Obviously with our six or seven instructors, we can't do that. And so we had to figure out a way to scale the educational process. And so what we did is we went to virtual and so we put this together.

• 2:15:29Jocko Willink?

  And once we made it, we said, well, we said, we made it, we're making it direct to consumer as well. So if you want to check that out, you can go to efonline.com, efonline.com. And speaking of EF, EF Overwatch, this is where we are connecting proven leaders, proven combat leaders from the spec ops community and from combat aviation with companies in the civilian sector that need these experienced leaders to step up and lead their organizations. So efoverwatch.com is where you can get involved with that, whether you're someone that's looking for talent, you can click on Talent Seeker, or whether you're someone, a vet

• 2:16:11Jocko Willink?

  that's looking for a career, click on Career Seeker and fill those out. We are standing by to help you. And if you want to cruise with us, kind of hard.

• 2:16:22Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:16:25Jocko Willink?

  We can be found and communicated with on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on the Faishi. Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And finally, thanks to all our military personnel out there. Thank you for standing up and taking the fight to the enemy and to our folks at uniform, in uniform, here at home, including police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and the correctional officers and Border Patrol and all the first responders. Thank you for standing up to evil here at home.

• 2:17:07Jocko Willink?

  And to Louisa Jess Pearson and Marin Yulen, who were murdered in Morocco.

• 2:17:22Jocko Willink?

  We will remember you. And to the despicable savages that took your lives, we will remember you too. And we'll remember those like you. And we will never surrender

• 2:17:43Jocko Willink?

  to the evil that you bring into the world.

• 2:17:47Jocko Willink?

  We will stand up. We will be strong. And we will win.

• 2:17:57Jocko Willink?

  And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.