Lessons on Money, Success, and Fulfillment You Need to Hear (ft. Lewis Howes)

Lewis Howes is one of the most successful podcasters of all time—12 years, nearly 1,800 episodes, and countless interviews with world-class performers. But what’s even more interesting is how his definition of success has evolved over the years. In this conversation, Lewis opens up about shifting from a hyper-competitive, “be number one” mentality to a more collaborative, impact-driven approach. We also dive into emotional regulation, the surprising ways our relationship with money affects our lives, and why most people either idolize or demonize wealth. Oh, and Lewis casually mentions he’s training to compete in the Olympics in his 40s. No big deal. This episode is packed with insights on what it really means to live a fulfilling, abundant life—without losing your mind in the process. Lewis's new book, Make Money Easy: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Money-Easy-Financial-Freedom/dp/1401993931 Lewis's podcast, The School of Greatness: https://lewishowes.com/sogpodcast/ CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction and 12 Years of Podcasting 00:01:03 Redefining Greatness: From Competition to Collaboration 00:03:35 The Jealousy Trap and Learning to Celebrate Others 00:04:49 When Being Number One Isn't Enough 00:10:24 The School of Greatness: Creating Your Own Therapy 00:12:07 From Hypercompetitive Athlete to Emotionally Aware Human 00:13:51 Vision and Spatial Awareness: The Athletic Edge That Translates 00:16:07 Treating Life Like Sports: Coaches, Seasons, and Feedback 00:17:40 Greatness 101: The Essential Curriculum 00:18:53 Emotional Regulation: Healing Childhood Wounds 00:22:13 Gratitude and Generosity: The Gateway to Flourishing 00:25:15 The Money Book Nobody Else Wrote 00:26:48 Money Wounds and Money Stories 00:29:22 If Money Walked Through the Door: The Revealing Exercise 00:31:09 Growing Up With Money: Downplaying Success to Fit In 00:36:15 Why We Attach So Much Emotion to Money 00:37:28 Money and Self-Worth: The Dangerous Connection 00:38:52 Mark's Healthy Relationship With Money 00:40:49 Broke and Happy vs Rich and Miserable: The Four Quadrants 00:41:30 Living on a Couch: From Defeated to Empowered 00:44:44 Success Without Peace: Fighting Everyone at 30 00:46:07 Mark's Journey: From Friend's Couch to Subtle Art Success 00:47:11 Broke But Optimistic: Learning Skills and Building Momentum 00:48:57 When Massive Success Breaks Your Brain 00:50:56 The Psychological Adjustment to Sudden Wealth 00:52:25 When Friends and Family Get Weird About Your Money 00:54:08 The Generosity Paradox: When Giving Backfires 00:56:01 Quality of Life Equals Quality of Relationships 00:57:58 Getting Married: Doing Everything Opposite 00:59:06 Courageous Conversations and Early Therapy 01:01:05 The No Upset Agreement: Communicating Without Fighting 01:02:17 Have Serious Conversations Sooner in Relationships 01:03:59 The Olympic Dream: A 40-Year Journey 01:06:53 Showing Up Uninvited: The First Handball Practice 01:08:37 The Dream That Died and Came Back to Life 01:09:54 Paris 2024: Reactivating the Fire 01:10:39 Three and a Half Years to Go: The Marathon Begins 01:12:53 Ambitious Goals That Seem Slightly Unhinged ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://markmanson.net/breakthrough⁩⁠⁠⁠ ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://bit.ly/4w46FMH⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson⁠ Solved IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://x.com/markmanson⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson Theme Song: Icarus Lives by @Periphery , used with permission from Periphery.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mark Manson?

  Lewis Howes, welcome to the show, man.

• 0:02Speaker 01

  My man, thanks for having me.

• 0:03Mark Manson?

  Dude, a podcasting legend.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  You know, 12 years, every week for 12 years I've done a podcast.

• 0:10Mark Manson?

  Every week?

• 0:11Speaker 01

  I haven't recorded every week, but I've posted every week for 12 years.

• 0:15Mark Manson?

  How many episodes now?

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Seventeen hundred, eighteen hundred, somewhere around there.

• 0:19Mark Manson?

  Dude.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  I know.

• 0:20Mark Manson?

  I'm like sleepy just hearing that number. I'm like, I need a vacation just from, just from what you just said.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  How many blog posts have you written?

• 0:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  Over a thousand, right?

• 0:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I mean, hundreds, but, but it's, it's cool having you here. You've been, people don't know this, behind the scenes, you've been a huge supporter of mine, starting this show. I appreciate, like, you reached out, you were super kind, very helpful.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 0:45Mark Manson?

  And I really appreciate that.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  My pleasure, man.

• 0:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah. So I'm curious, you've interviewed, I guess, over a thousand

• 0:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:51Mark Manson?

  experts at this point.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:52Mark Manson?

  Right? High performers, top achievers. I'm curious, I don't know if you still do this, but for a long time, I think the first two times I was on your show, you ask everybody what their definition of greatness is. Uh, I'm curious, what, how has your definition of greatness changed and evolved over the years? You've been doing this 12 years. What was it when you started and what is it today?

• 1:14Speaker 01

  I think when it started, I can't remember what exactly it was, but I, I remember who I was back then. And I think it was more like just being number one, being the best and being number one at whatever you do. I thought that was greatness to me, which is like, you have to go after your thing, be the top of what you can be, take your talents to the farthest and be number one and be the best. And, um, I don't think that's wrong. I think it's just evolved with that. And I think we should be developing our unique talents and gifts to pursue, you know, we should pursue our dreams and develop our unique talents and gifts in that pursuit. And I think it's also making the maximum impact on the people around us. And if that's millions of people, great. If that's five people, great.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  It's like, how can we take our talents to pursue the thing we're called to do? Which I'm sure you're gonna ask me what that next calling is for me right now in the future. And how do we, how do we take it as far as we can, but in that journey, make an impact on the people around us?

• 2:11Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  In the best possible way. That's for me is like my current definition.

• 2:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah. What's interesting about that is the, the whole concept of being number one, right? It's like being number one.

• 2:23Mark Manson?

  Among what? Like, what is the, you know, what's the, the, the circle that you're drawing and putting yourself in and deciding your number? Like, it's a very arbitrary kind of metric and it's almost like, I do think when we're younger, we kind of just look at kind of maybe traditional societal measurements of the best or number one or the top achievements. And I guess as you get older, you start learning that like, hey, you get to define for yourself.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:48Mark Manson?

  Like, what, what are you measuring yourself by? What are you going to be great at? What are you going to be number one at, right?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. For me, it was like, okay, how can I be the best in sports? And then that was done. How can I be the best in my industry of business or whatever, podcasting or whatever it might be? And that energy is just very competitive versus collaborative.

• 3:07Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  And I, I learned around the time of launching the show that I was just like, oh, I need to shift it from trying to win to trying to get everyone around me to win with me.

• 3:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  And if I can have that energy, it's just much more enjoyable. And we were talking about, you know, someone else before we started the recording. It's like seeing other people thrive for me is exciting. Because it shows me, oh, maybe I could get there as well one day. If they could do it, maybe I could do it. And it doesn't mean I'm less than if someone else is greater than in this moment or having a different type of moment or selling better or performing better. It just means there's a lot of space for everyone.

• 3:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  And everyone can have a moment or a season and that's great.

• 3:49Mark Manson?

  Do you struggle with that sometimes? That competitive?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  I used to.

• 3:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  I used to feel more like insecure and jealous. I was like, oh, they have something I don't have or they're better than me in something. So how do I get better? And now I'm just like, how do I be my best? How do I stick to my mission and be better every day? I mean, uh, and really me helping others grow, like me reaching out to you and be like, hey, how can I help you have a great podcast? And then launch your show and be, be massive. It doesn't pull back from me also being successful or making money. And again, the more collaborative I can be, I've found that that kind of mastermind principle or community principle really has supported me in return in times when I'm struggling or when I'm having a moment. It's like I'm coming on your show and I've got a book coming

• 4:36Speaker 01

  out and it's like, if I didn't invest in you being successful in some way, maybe you wouldn't have been interested to support me in return. And I think just having that mindset in general is a more enjoyable way to live.

• 4:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I'm a very competitive person as well and I look at, I look at.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  You look at metrics and you want to be number one.

• 4:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah, but I do look at my younger self and I used to, I had a lot of, I used to have a lot of competitiveness in like my friendships.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 5:06Mark Manson?

  And I think a lot of guys, young men do that. And it's something that now as an, as an older man, like I look back and I'm like, that was so stupid. Like it was so, because it created a lot of unnecessary conflict and tension, create a lot of jealousy, you know, resentment on both sides, you know? And it feels completely unnecessary. I'm curious, like, was there any specific experience or occurrence that like shifted that for you? Or was it like a very gradual process over time?

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Oh, man. I think it's probably multiple instances over time. It's more of a feeling. I know, I know this may not be something you like talking about, but it's more of like an energy. I just felt like, why am I always in judgment? Why am I always feeling less than? Why am I always doubting? Why am I always in competition with other people over the years? And I was in a place of scarcity and lack, even though I was driven to succeed or I was driven to accomplish. If I'm in comparison and I'm comparing myself to someone else's success, it means I'm not there yet or I'm not as good as them.

• 6:11Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  And when it's coming from a place of jealousy or insecurity rather than celebration of that person, then again, it's just an energy that doesn't feel good.

• 6:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  It feels just like a lower energy and I want to have a higher energy when I'm doing things. So it's a constant reminder, even today. It's like we have friends that are thriving right now, bigger than what we're doing at this moment. And I have to constantly say like, good for them.

• 6:34Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  I'm excited for them. Even if I have to fake it sometimes, it's like, yeah, I'm excited for them. Do I wish I could be there? Sure.

• 6:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  It's like, of course, I wish I was maybe farther ahead or having that type of opportunity. But like, good for them. And here's something that I feel like I've started to learn really the last four years. It's like, there's not many people who have done what you've done for a long time.

• 6:53Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Who've written content and been successful as an author and a writer for a decade plus, or however long it's been. There's not many people in the podcasting world for 12 years.

• 7:03Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  And I'm starting to think more of, you know, in eight more years, 20 years, can I, can I make this enjoyable, fun, continue to grow and thrive for the next eight years? Obviously evolve and innovate, but not many people are going to be able to do that for a long time. And I'm starting to look at that more as a metric for me.

• 7:25Mark Manson?

  Hmm.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Of, I'm innovating, I'm growing, I'm making a difference and an impact. I'm able to build my business. Maybe there's a moment where things just really explode in a bigger way, maybe not. But as long as I'm really enjoying it and not letting it stress me out constantly, I feel like that's a big win. Because it is an energy. We want to feel light. We want to feel free. We want to feel expansive, abundant. We want to feel loved, all these different things.

• 7:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  And if I'm just chasing to be number one, or I'm feeling separate because I'm lacking what someone else has, that doesn't feel good.

• 7:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Well, we were talking before we went live. I mean, you're, you're doing this book launch, right? And like, I've been through it, you've been through it. Like a typical book launch, it's just this wall to wall. You're doing 20 interviews a day, week after week.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Exhausting.

• 8:12Mark Manson?

  You're in like five different cities, you're doing events, you're going on TV. Like it's, it's absolutely exhausting. You, you just, you wear yourself to the bone. And you said, you're like, I'm not doing that this time. I'm doing like five to 10 interviews. I'm good. And I like, it's funny because I, when you said that, I immediately, I was like, I admire that. Like, I, I know, because I know how hard it is to turn down all those opportunities. But I think that is, it is, it's a demonstration of like that reprioritization.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:44Mark Manson?

  Away from like, because you could, you could just like murder yourself over the next three weeks.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Pressure.

• 8:49Mark Manson?

  Try to make this thing number one everywhere, you know, and.

• 8:54Mark Manson?

  Burn yourself out, you know, and like just really drain all your energy, not be present when you come home, not be present with your team, with your, with your wife, like, I'm not saying it's bad, not it's bad to go all out. Like, it's good to be able to go all out. Like, sometimes I, sometimes I tell my wife, I'm like, I like knowing that I can go balls to the wall if I have to, but like, I don't want to live there.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's a price you pay for that, too. I mean, again, it's all seasonal. It's like, maybe it was 10 years ago, it was my first book. I'd be like, I have to do everything I can. And if I'm not married and I'm single and it's like, I can do it and I don't care what happens to my body. But my mission is to try to be as healthy as possible right now during everything, what I'm doing.

• 9:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  And so it's like, okay, I've got to really be, I have to make better decisions on what I'm going to give my energy to, when I'm going to do interviews. Whereas before, two years ago, I did a book launch, and I think I did 63 interviews within three months.

• 9:49Mark Manson?

  Sheesh.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  And I was exhausted. I gained like 20 pounds. I was just burnt out. And it didn't see the results in my mind that I thought I would do. So it was like, okay, I could kill myself trying to get extreme results. It got good results, but it didn't get what I thought it would get. So what's the point of doing that again? If me killing myself again for three months, will it give me the results I want? I don't know. And is it worth losing my health to get those results?

• 10:14Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  At this season, it's not anymore.

• 10:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah, for just the, you know, 20% more book sales, 10% more book sales in the first month or whatever. I want to go back really quick, because a thought occurred to me when you were, you were talking about kind of, how it was like a slow mindset shift over time of just like how that competitiveness and comparison

• 10:34Mark Manson?

  made you feel worse, gave like, gave you a worse energy. I, it, it struck me as you were talking. I'm like, it's funny that like, you built, your show is the school of greatness. Like, the whole concept around it is you find the top performers in, in each area of life, in each field. And so, one, I guess one thing I never considered is that the experience of doing your show is that you are constantly putting yourself in front of the person who's number one at something.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're all better than me. You know, they're all like, great than me at everything.

• 11:04Mark Manson?

  So if you are comparing yourself, you're going to quickly drive yourself crazy.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:09Mark Manson?

  So it's almost like, I, I kind of have this therapy, or this theory that, uh, that- People, people who create media or content, like we create our own therapy.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:20Mark Manson?

  Like we create the advice that we actually need ourselves. And I, I just found it interesting while you were talking. I'm like, it's funny. He like kind of created the, he created the show.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  I needed it the most.

• 11:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  I needed it the most. Yeah. And, and again, I was extremely competitive in sports and I tried to be competitive in business, but you interview someone who's making more than you. It's like, oh, okay. I'm a nobody compared to this person. So it's like quickly I learned like, I was like, how do I get there as fast as possible? And all these different places in the first few years.

• 11:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  I was like, I will never be able to do that. And I just need to continue to be a student and just try to improve a little bit every day in the areas. To feel more whole as a human being. It might sound a little lame or something, but I think a lot of us want to feel peace.

• 12:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  We want to feel wholeness. We want to feel like we are enough. In whatever, uh, you know, in our own world, we want to feel whole. For most of my life, I felt broken. I felt wounded and I felt triggered. And I was driven to succeed to feel more whole. The success didn't create wholeness. So about 10 to 12 years ago, I started on a healing journey to figure out, how do I create that wholeness within me? And that's kind of what the show has been, My Own Therapy.

• 12:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Well, and it's interesting too, because your background, sports, business, it's like very, it's very masculine.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Masculine.

• 12:43Mark Manson?

  It's very like.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Success.

• 12:44Mark Manson?

  Crush, dominant.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:46Mark Manson?

  But, but like.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Competition.

• 12:47Mark Manson?

  You, you're actually like, you're a very sensitive, emotionally aware guy who like, and a lot, like a lot of the, the guests and the content on your show, like the last few years, it's like, it's a lot, it's more relationship stuff. It's more emotional stuff. It's more like developing maturity and, and, and, uh, It's funny, it is, it is almost like.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  It's what I lacked.

• 13:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  For most of my life, you know, it's like I was one mode is like win, achieve goals, succeed, get girls, right? It was like, that's the mindset of like some young men, right? It was like.

• 13:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  But when you have all those things, or when you're accomplishing those things at a certain level or whatever, and you realize, oh, this isn't the answer to creating fulfillment.

• 13:29Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Or wholeness, or self-love, or peace. I was just like, oh, man, all the money that I was making wasn't making me feel peaceful.

• 13:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  So if that's not the entire answer, what is the answer? And that's the journey.

• 13:45Mark Manson?

  So your background is in sports and athletics, which we've alluded to. We've now, we've talked about what doesn't transfer over, like that, that kind of sports competitive mentality doesn't translate over into everyday life, maybe so effectively. I'm curious, what did you learn in sports and athletics that has translated over into life?

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Vision.

• 14:07Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Vision was the thing that I think I was either given the gift or developed the gift over years of playing sports. And I don't know if you had this playing, you know, jazz guitar or whatever, if that was something you had, or you had some other creative element from that, the ability to improvise what was coming next while you're playing. Although I think you said like your first month at Berkeley, you were like, oh, I give up because I, you were comparing yourself to like, you know, the, the average guitar player there who was just dominating you or something.

• 14:39Mark Manson?

  I made it six whole months.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:41Mark Manson?

  But yes, basically, yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Semester and a half or something.

• 14:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Uh, but for me, it was, I was never the, the most talented when I was, uh, you know, in kind of middle school and high school, not until I got into like my later years in high school where I became more of like the all-star on the team. But early on, I just had a lot of failure in sports, but I was willing to just train all day long. And where I lacked in athletic ability, I was able to create spacing and awareness on the field, on the court, whatever it might be, and see where the ball needed to be or where I needed to be. And so I lacked the speed and the jumping capabilities, but I was able to see what was gonna come next.

• 15:23Mark Manson?

  And was that something you practiced or?

• 15:25Speaker 01

  It was, it was, I don't even know how it happened. I think it was just because I lacked the other skills that certain guys had of like natural speed and natural jumping. I had to find a way around to make up that space.

• 15:38Mark Manson?

  Gotcha.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  To save that time where they could excel in speed or strength. And that ability to almost see things at the peripheral and have patience allowed me to excel because I would just always find a way to get the ball. I'd always be in the right spot. I'd always just knew where it was gonna be. And a lot of people ask me like, how did you excel quickly on my kind of business path? Uh, when I first got started in my, I guess, mid to late twenties. And everyone was like, how did you get here so quickly? And all I did after sports was done was I said, I don't know anything else about life except for how to relate it to sports.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  I don't know how to make money. I don't know about relationships. I don't know about any of this stuff, but I know I need to find a coach. Because the greatest athletes, they hire better coaches after they win the championship. And they find more specialists to support them to excelling and maintaining that championship level. So I was like, I just need to find a coach who's already done it before in life. And I need to think of life as seasons. Of like the first season, I gotta figure out a way to get off my sister's couch. Okay, what do I need to do in these three months? And then I just started breaking it down in seasons like a sport and asking the coach to guide me on how to get there. What I was really good at was vision. I knew where I wanted to go and I was really effective at

• 16:59Speaker 01

  working extremely hard daily until I accomplished the goals and receiving feedback from the coach. And that's what I did as an athlete. I was coachable. I could receive feedback. And I would just, you tell me to do something for three hours a day, I'm doing it. Okay, tell me to do it for how long? I'll do it.

• 17:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  And I think that consistency, again. I've been doing the podcast for 12 years and it's like, I'm just gonna keep showing up. As long as I'm enjoying it and I feel like I'm improving, I'll keep showing up.

• 17:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's like, it's just this like old school.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  It is.

• 17:29Mark Manson?

  Work ethic.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  It is, yeah. I think I got that from sports.

• 17:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah. So with everything that you've learned and experienced, if you were to create like a greatness 101 curriculum, like what are, what are the first lessons? What are the, what are like the basic tenets of like, okay, you wanna, you, you wanna achieve something more in your life, whatever it is, whether it's sports, art, business, whatever.

• 17:58Mark Manson?

  What are like the first three or four things you have to have?

• 18:02Speaker 01

  I don't know what order this goes in, but the first one goes back into having a

• 18:08Speaker 01

  a mentor.

• 18:09Mark Manson?

  You need it.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  That has a model that you would like to mimic. So a mentor who's already done something that you see, oh, I want to get to this place. And finding someone who's got some type of a model to getting there. So if there was a young person that said, I want to be an author and I want to write and I want to do really influential writing, then they could look to you as a mentor, whether they can connect with you personally or just see your content online or this podcast. Cause you have a model that they can follow and they can start to mimic from where you started to where you are. Uh, that'd be one is like really finding good coaches, teachers, mentors. And some people don't have that in their parents, so you can find that in other ways. I don't know if you read a lot of books growing up and you kind of had that mentorship through books, through reading, or if you had great teachers coaching you.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  But uh, for me, I had great coaches and I would not be where I'm at without those coaches. So I think find those the best way you can. And if you can't, then find the books and the podcasts like this. The second element of greatness for me would be emotional regulation. Cause it's something I lacked for most of my life. I was very reactive when I was triggered. I had a lot of wounds from my childhood psychologically, emotionally, physically. And anytime someone poked on the wounds, I would react. And it's because the wound never healed for me.

• 19:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  So I didn't know how to regulate those emotions and I felt like I needed to defend myself, protect myself. Fight back, whatever it might be. And I think emotional regulation, for me, the learning, the art of it, is really learning how to have courage to create boundaries instead of reacting and letting someone else have power over you.

• 19:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  And also really learning to look at your past and create meaning from these wounds, or the stresses, or the traumas that we've had, and being okay at looking at them for a period of time, processing them, forgiving yourself, forgiving someone else, however that looks for you, and then integrating the healing lessons so you can feel more peaceful in your nervous system. My nervous system was never calm. It was always like hypersensitive.

• 20:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  And I was easily triggered. I wanted to please everyone, but I felt taken advantage of and abused by them. And it all stemmed from childhood traumas that I never healed. So I felt very unsafe inside of me. And it wasn't until I was able to process these things and create better emotional regulation where I felt, oh, I'm good with me. I'm calm.

• 20:40Mark Manson?

  And was that through therapy, meditation?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Through all of it. It was through all of it.

• 20:45Mark Manson?

  Everything.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Everything, all of it. And it's been a journey. It wasn't like, oh, I just did a few sessions and I'm good. It was a journey. And with every new level of my life of financial success, different relationships, marriage, you know, breakups, whatever it might be, I had to learn how to regulate at different levels as well, different seasons.

• 21:06Mark Manson?

  It comes back.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:07Mark Manson?

  And it comes back and bites you in the ass in new ways.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  In new ways, man. It's like, and so new levels create new devils. I think that's a phrase. But it's like, so it's learning how to use the tools that I've learned in a previous season and applied to the current season of emotional regulation. And you just see.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  You know, you just see so many people get to the top and then fall because of their emotions.

• 21:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Their stresses with a lack of emotional regulation. So that'd be the second thing, really having great coaches, mentors, teachers, whatever you want to call it, therapists, doesn't matter. Someone that can mentor you in some way and give you tools to support you in getting where you want to be. And you being able to receive feedback, emotional regulation, I think, is something I wish I would have learned when I was five.

• 21:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  You know, 10, 15, 30, you know, 40, you know, it's like I'm being 42 next, next week.

• 21:56Mark Manson?

  Better late than never.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  And it's a constant process of learning how to regulate my emotions. Then I would think the, um, the next element of greatness is,

• 22:07Speaker 01

  which is the first habit in the, the book that I have, which is the mindset habit. And I really believe that gratitude and generosity is the gateway to abundance. It's the gateway to a flourishing life and a more abundant fulfilling life. And I know you don't like the word abundance and manifest and all these things. You're very, you're very, you repel when someone says those words, you're like, ah, you like ick with that. I understand that. So I think gratitude and being a generous human being is the ingredients for, um, you know, just a flourishing, prosperous life.

• 22:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  A rich life. And for me, most people say, well, once I have the success or the money, then I'll be giving and then I'll be generous. Then I'll be grateful that I have it. But I think we really have to say, okay, I have nothing. How can I be grateful for where I'm at and the little wins every single day, the little moments that are little victories? And how can I be generous? If it's not with money, how can I be generous with my time, my attention, my presence, my curiosity with a human being?

• 23:18Speaker 01

  My resources, my ability to connect people, my ability to give information freely, whatever it might be. And I think that's really the key to, to greatness.

• 23:28Mark Manson?

  Well, now the irony with what you just said too, because I've run into the same thing. Is, you know, people, they say, well, I don't have anything right now. So how can I be generous? Why should I help other people? It it kind of, and they think like, well, once I'm successful, once I have abundance, then I'll be generous with people. But it kind of works the other way around. Like when you're generous with people, they want to support you and they want to give you opportunities and they want to

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:54Mark Manson?

  help you along your path. And I I remember this, I'm trying to remember, it was like a marketing seminar I saw once. I think it was Dan Kennedy, years and years and years ago. And he was saying, he was like, everybody wants to convince a million people to give them a dollar. And he's like, but what you should be doing is you should be trying to give a million people a hundred dollars worth of value for free. And then ask, you know, when, then they will be compelled to give you a dollar without you even asking, right?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  So true.

• 24:23Mark Manson?

  And it's just like, it's like leading with the giving hand.

• 24:27Mark Manson?

  And I I've like, I've just found that to be true. And so many walks of life, whether it's business, relationships, you know, pursuing a skill or a hobby, any, any, any pursuit that involves like networking and relationships in any way, like it's just, just be helpful.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Generosity, man.

• 24:44Mark Manson?

  Be useful.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Is the key. And I just think that will, it's more sustainable energy, long term. You might be able to be like taking energy and get to a certain level at one point, but then it's like, you burn a lot of relationships. People are like, eh, don't work with that guy or that gal. And it's not sustainable long term.

• 25:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  So I think greatness is something that you can sustain for a long time.

• 25:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  And you've got to be grateful and generous.

• 25:07Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:11Mark Manson?

  Well, let's talk about the new book. You mentioned it briefly. I was very interested and impressed.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  I thought you'd say skeptical because you know.

• 25:21Mark Manson?

  No, no, it's, it's actually really cool. Like, I'm glad, I'm glad somebody, because there's so many money books out there.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:27Mark Manson?

  And you took an angle that I have not seen anybody else take, right? Which is like, there's, there are no charts and tables. There's like very little math in here. There's no like interest rates and here's.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  No, it's not an investing book.

• 25:40Mark Manson?

  Here's the best credit card to get. Like, it's, it is all about the mindsets and emotions and attitudes and beliefs that we have around money and how they sabotage us and how to like prevent them from sabotaging us. So the first thing, I'm just curious, what inspired it? Like where did this come from?

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Um, well, of, of, at the time, you know, nine, 10 years of doing the podcast,

• 26:03Speaker 01

  all the conversations I had around money. And as I start, and I stopped asking people like, how do you make money? And how do you manage your emotions around money? And what is the energy, the beliefs, the mindset around how to create an abundant life? With or without money? Those episodes just really kind of took off. So I was like, oh, people are really struggling around money. Money conversations are one of the biggest reasons why people get divorced or break up in relationships. People feel like they attach their self-worth to their net worth. So if you don't have anything, you feel like you're not worthy, you feel like you're not valuable. So why is that? And I also just was very confused around money as a kid. I didn't understand it. I didn't know how to make it. I didn't think I was talented enough that someone would give me money. It's very confusing.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  And I wasn't taught this in school. Like no one taught me how to manage your emotions around money. And as you know, our, our beliefs influence our behaviors.

• 26:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  And the more we think and feel about something, we usually act in alignment with that way of thinking. And then we get the results in our life. As I started to make money in my late twenties and thirties, I just started to reflect and I was like, oh, okay, I was this extreme saver. I wouldn't spend it because I was afraid to go broke and be on my sister's couch again. So I would work really hard, save all this money. It was in the bank and I would still take buses, Greyhound buses across the country and not buy a plane ticket. And then when I would buy a plane ticket, I would get like the cheapest seat with three connections, middle, middle row.

• 27:37Mark Manson?

  Like four, 4am departure.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Exactly. I was like, how can I save, save, save? Cause I don't want to go back and be broke again.

• 27:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  So I had millions, but I was living in scarcity and I felt anxious and stressed about money. And I was always like, is someone trying to rip me off? When I'm spending someone for a consultant, are they really charging me the right fair price? I was just like anxious around it. And I wanted to learn the skills for me and how to feel more peaceful around money. And again, I was like, I had money, but I felt scarce. That's not a rich life to me. That's not a abundant life. That's not a, a beautiful life. It was stressful. Money created more problems for me. It, it solves certain problems, but it made me feel more anxious and stressed at the same time.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  And even with the money, I wasn't taking care of myself or like even just getting a normal seat on a airplane so that I wasn't breaking my back, you know, on this like cramped airplane or whatever. It's like I wasn't willing to invest in things to add value to me because I was afraid of going broke. And it took me years to kind of heal that mindset and kind of retrain my mindset to thinking, okay, it's okay to spend on certain things. And, and how can I feel safe spending and investing in me or things that are going to bring me more joy? I'm working so hard to make this money, but I'm not investing in it to make myself feel better. Why? So it's just like looking at my own beliefs

• 29:04Speaker 01

  and seeing where that came from. And I realized I had a lot of money wounds that created my money story. And as I started asking people like, what's your money story? What's your money wounds? People really didn't understand what I was talking about. And so I said, okay, let's do an example right now. Mark, imagine the idea of money is represented in a person, and a person who is money walks through the door right now. And they represent money. They are money to you. The thoughts, the feelings, the emotions around money. They walk in the door. What's the first thing you think or feel if money walked in the door right now?

• 29:42Mark Manson?

  The first word that came to mind was douchebag.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Interesting. Why?

• 29:49Mark Manson?

  I think a big part of this is my upbringing, you know, I, I grew up in Texas, very, you know, suburbs, quasi rural, like the, the area that I grew up in, and then also kind of the, you know, my mom's from the Midwest, my dad's from Texas, like, the attitude towards money where I grew up is very much, it's, it's, you, you stay humble, you try not to stick out, like, you know, if you drive a fancy car or have a fancy watch, like, oh, you think you're better than us, huh? You know, like, it's very much, it's, it, people are always kind of cutting each other down. And people who do have money are, you're kind of playing it down because you don't want to stand out too much. So.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  That's me too, man. Yeah, that was, that's me for a long time.

• 30:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I I definitely feel like I've kind of personally gotten away from that to a certain extent. Not completely, but to a certain extent. But it's funny because I definitely see it in my family like it's when I go home and I see family and friends like you there's still very much that vibe around.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  And what were some of the conversations or some of the things you heard about money growing up? You know, some people hear like, oh, money doesn't grow on trees, or maybe they just heard their parents fighting about money or like, was there anything that you heard like? Rich people are like always like they did something wrong to make their money. They hurt people to make money. Did you hear anything?

• 31:09Mark Manson?

  So my my dad did pretty well for himself like we weren't rich, but like we were upper middle class like money was never a problem in my family. You know, we we went to good schools. We had food like we lived in a nice house like. Parents had two nice cars, like all that stuff. So money was never a problem in our family. I actually the the problem, the discussions and the stress around money in my family was actually downplaying how much we had. Because I think in the neighborhood I grew up in, we had some of the most money in the neighborhood, right? And so it was.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Trying to not be too like highbrow around everyone.

• 31:45Mark Manson?

  Exactly, because people, like I said, where I grew up, people judge you for that, right? You know, I would, I remember when I was a kid, I would invite a friend over from school and like their parents would bring them and you know, the the parent would kind of look at the house and be like, wow. What do you do for work? You know, like it was just kind but kind of in a sneering judgmental way. And I definitely

• 32:11Mark Manson?

  like that got indoctrinated into me, especially, you know, growing up in Texas too, like people talk tons of shit about New Yorkers and Californians and like.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Miami or something, yeah, yeah.

• 32:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah, like, don't be one of those East Coasters who's like.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Superficial or snobby.

• 32:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah, to, you know, don't get too big for your britches, like stuff like that.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 32:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  That we fear people's judgments of how big we can get or how much wealth we can create. And therefore we want to downplay it in some ways unconsciously or maybe consciously of like, oh, we don't want to offend anyone or we want to look too good for ourselves or whatever it might be. And that's just interesting. And what I want everyone listening or watching to think about is just if money walked in the door, how would you initially react? And that was your initial reaction. What a douchebag, right? It was like. And maybe it was kind of a little joke in there, but it's like, that was your initial reaction.

• 33:00Mark Manson?

  That was, that was the honest gut reaction.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. You weren't like, oh, I'd give it a big hug and welcome in and come sit down next to us, you know, it's like, oh, you'd kind of be like, get out of here.

• 33:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  What an idiot.

• 33:11Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  You'd be thinking that way. So I want everyone to think about that and reflect on it. And if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment of what money represents to you.

• 33:19Mark Manson?

  Look at this, guys. Oh, this is a pro at work.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Share, share a comment and say, if money walked in the door, what's your initial response? Leave a comment, a detailed comment on that.

• 33:28Mark Manson?

  I love this.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  And also.

• 33:30Mark Manson?

  Milk the engagement, Louis. Let's go.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  I want everyone to be reflecting on this because here, you're going to get a lot of value seeing everyone else's comments on how other people think about money. And I'll just share one, one story that, uh, I asked someone close to me who's in their 20, late twenties.

• 33:46Mark Manson?

  It is.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Uh, so I guess that's Gen Z. I don't know what that is, but is that Gen Z if you're like 27, 28?

• 33:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  And I said, if you're at a restaurant and money walks in the door, what do you do? And they said, I, I would run to the bar and hide. And then I would talk about money behind its back and gossip about it and say nasty things about it. Then when it came up to, if it came up to me, I would act like I was his friend. It'd be nice and polite. Then I would use it and abuse it to get what I wanted. And if it ever reached out to me, I would ghost it. And I was like, damn, holy cow. That seems like a very unhealthy relationship with money. And they were like, I know it is.

• 34:26Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  And they were very honest and I appreciate it. And I want everyone to be honest with, what is your relationship with money like? If you could make it a person or an idea, how does it make you feel in your nervous system and your, your minds and your body? Do you feel safe with money?

• 34:42Mark Manson?

  Hmm.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Do you feel if someone gave you a gift, Mark? If someone said, here's $5, I want you to have this. How would that make you feel versus if someone said, here's $5 million as a gift, I want you to have this.

• 34:54Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  And just notice like your eyebrows went up when you said five million, I was like, just notice, can you receive gifts from people? Can you see, receive gifts from a friend and family or strangers?

• 35:03Mark Manson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Or do you feel like, no, I could never take this? Just notice your reaction. Are you good at giving gifts? Or do you feel like I can't give my money away? Because then I'll never get it back. Do you hold on to money tightly? Are you relaxed with it? And it can come and go freely because you have a healthy relationship with it. There's not a right or wrong, good or bad here. It's just to notice what is your relationship? Do you feel you have a rich or abundant life emotionally with your relationship with money? If not, then it's time to go to money therapy, address some of your money wounds. Again, some of these words people may be like freaking out about, but it's like just to notice them.

• 35:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Notice these stories like you talked about and say, how can I just start to mend or heal some of these? And start expanding my ability to give and receive more.

• 35:53Mark Manson?

  Well, I, I do, I love this conversation because in my experience in both and also with myself, my own life, but also just with people I've been around. I, I generally find that people tend to either have irrationally positive associations with money or irrationally negative associations with like, like nobody seems to have just kind of a neutral like, yeah, money's cool. Like.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no one does.

• 36:14Mark Manson?

  Nobody does.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  It's like a beautiful relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:16Mark Manson?

  No, it's, everybody either thinks that money is going to solve all their problems and their life would be so amazing if they just, you know, had X, X amount of dollars and then, or they think that money is like the root of all evil. It's causing all the issues in their life that it's people, rich people are assholes and scumbags and cheating everybody. And it, there's no kind of like sane middle ground. And it's, it's so weird to me like I, I actually, I wonder why, why do we attach so much emotion to money?

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Phew, I mean, that's what I'm trying to figure out an answer.

• 36:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  I think because of the wounds around it and the power that it gives people.

• 36:54Mark Manson?

  Hmm.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  When you have money, you feel more powerful. When you have less money, you feel less powerful. And no one wants to feel disempowered. They don't want to feel like they're out of control. They want to feel in control. Money and sex are like the two biggest drivers in life.

• 37:08Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  It's the thing we drive to have more of until we can regulate our emotions and feel like, okay, I can have a healthy amount of sex.

• 37:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Hopefully with one person, because that's going to be a better dynamic, hopefully.

• 37:20Mark Manson?

  Fewer headaches.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, fewer headaches, less stress.

• 37:22Mark Manson?

  Less trauma.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Better spiritual alignment, all these different things.

• 37:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  And, and hopefully I can have a healthy relationship with money. Where money doesn't make me feel powerful by itself, because if it does, if I lose money, or if I give money, or if I spend money, I feel less powerful in certain ways. Or if it's my bank account is going down, then my self-worth is going down. And I think it's attaching those things with our identity, with how much money we have, or don't have, or how much debt we might have. And most of the country is in some type of debt. So people feel anxious, they feel stressed around it. And again, my goal is to see, how can I help people and help myself feel more peace in every area of life? Money is just one of the biggest charges for people.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  And it, it can hurt a lot of people, but it can also help you if you have a healthy relationship. So again, I want everyone to ask themselves, if money was a, a person, how would you react in that? And also, another, another question you could answer in the comments, and you can answer here too, is-

• 38:23Mark Manson?

  Leave a second comment, everybody.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Just a simple, it's all just about assessing where we're at and saying, does this support me?

• 38:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  And feeling good.

• 38:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  You wanna call it abundant, prosperous, wealthy, it's like, do I feel good? On a scale of one to 10, Mark, 10 being the most abundant, peaceful, and one being the most scarce and stressed out, where are you on the, the, the one to 10 scale with your relationship with money?

• 38:49Mark Manson?

  So money is one of the few things I actually feel like I, I've, I've always been very good with. Like in both emotionally and just managing finances. I actually give a lot of credit to my dad, we could talk about that in a bit if you want. I would say eight or nine, eight or nine. I very rarely stress about money. I also, I think I'm very realistic about it. Like I don't expect it really to solve any, any of my major problems in my life.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Do you have any triggers around money? When someone, are you able to receive gifts well? And do you feel like you're a generous person with your money? Do you feel, um, when you have to spend money on taxes? Are you like, this is bullshit and fuck this shit? You know, are you like, okay, I see it for what it is and it's okay. And, you know, is there any area of money where you get like stressed out about?

• 39:40Mark Manson?

  Honestly, I could probably use, I could probably be a little bit more anxious around money. Like, I'm very-

• 39:47Speaker 01

  You're too generous. You're too giving.

• 39:49Mark Manson?

  I, I am very generous, which I'm, I'm actually okay with that. I'm, but I'm very, uh, I'm very comfortable with risk.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 39:56Mark Manson?

  So it, it actually, it's, it's like, you know, I've had investments in the past.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  It's hurt you in the past.

• 40:01Mark Manson?

  Oh, yeah. Like, I've had investments in the past or, or, you know, maybe an errant trip to Vegas that I'm like, I'm like, you know, this should bother me a lot more than it does, but it doesn't.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 40:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  I think that's pretty healthy as long as you're able to not risk so much of it. And you're just like, hey, this is okay because I know money is going to come back to me. And I've, I've done a good job with it.

• 40:21Mark Manson?

  As long as it's not an addiction or a compulsion or anything, which it's not. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's, you know, my, my parents, uh, they got a lot of things right and they got a lot of things wrong, like most parents. Um, but like one, one of the things they, they really nailed was the money thing.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 40:35Mark Manson?

  And, and I'm extremely grateful for that. Well, so there was this, there was a part in your book that, that stood out to me and it was something I related to a lot. And I, I actually thought it'd be a fun exercise for us to kind of go through and discuss, you know, why each of these things were true for us at different points. So you had, you had a, a section and you, you kind of just said it in passing. And I think it was in like the second or third chapter, but you said like, there were times in your life where you were broke and happy, where you're broke and miserable, where you were rich and happy and rich and miserable.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:07Mark Manson?

  And I've had all four of those experiences as well. Yes. I, I read that and I was like a hundred percent, a hundred percent. And I was actually, uh, it made me kind of wonder, I'm like, what, so what was it in each of those instances? So let's start with, let's start with broke and happy. When were you broke and happy and why were you happy?

• 41:24Speaker 01

  I was on my sister's couch for a year and a half after playing arena football. And for the first six months, I was, uh, I had a broken wrist, so I was in a cast. And I was really kind of just defeated because my identity was broken. For so long, I wanted to pursue this dream. I got to do it, but then it's over. And now I'm like, well, who am I? What is my value? What's my purpose? Why am I here? So I was in that kind of state of sadness, depression, whatever you want to call it, just down on myself. I didn't have any money. I had, I don't know, about twenty something grand in college debt. I didn't have a college degree yet. It was at the, you know, the height of the, I guess, the housing crisis of two thousand eight, two thousand nine, and I wasn't able to find a job.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  So it's just like, everything felt like it was against me. And I was believing that everything was against me, and I have no power. I'm powerless. That's when I felt I'm poor and I'm miserable. Yes. It's when I started to say to myself, okay, I can stay here in this kind of self-loathing state of mind, or I can create a game plan, and I can start to say, how can I just see improvement? It's not going to be a millionaire overnight. I'm not going to get off my sister's couch right away. But what are the things that I'm most afraid of? And I made a list of my biggest fears. And how can I start feeling more powerful by overcoming them and developing those skills? Public speaking was one of them. Reading and writing was

• 42:49Speaker 01

  one of them. Salsa dancing was a fear. All these different things I had fears around. And so I found coaches in each area of those, you know, speaking, writing, reading, salsa dancing, and they all guided me on how to overcome it. I felt a lot of joy within probably three or four months. The beginning part of that, I was terrified and it was miserable because I really sucked at all of it. And I was just embarrassing myself in front of people trying these things. So it was very disencouraging in the beginning stages of overcoming fears. But within three to four months, I was like, oh, I'm getting progress. I'm seeing that I'm not as, I'm still horrible. Yeah. I'm just not as bad. Yeah.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  And it was like, once started, I started to figure things out and got some momentum in all these areas. I was like, man, I can do anything. I was like, I'm not great yet, but it's like, wow, if I could do even just this much, what else could I do? And that really made me feel excited about life and probably that I've never felt before. When I was the tail end of my sister's couch, I was salsa dancing three, four times a night around Columbus, Ohio. I was speaking at Toastmasters every single week, and I had a coach that was guiding me to get better, and I could see my growth. I was getting great feedback. And I was starting to write a book. From another mentor that was helping me write my first book around LinkedIn, actually.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  And it was just like, oh, I'm conquering the world, even though I was still beginner at these things. And no one really knew who I was and I wasn't making really any money. But I was like, man, I can do anything. And that felt very empowering. So I felt like I'm broke, but I'm like taking over the world. And that was very empowering. And then the time when I was, you know, making money, but unhappy was when all my relationships were falling apart around me. Probably around thirty years old, about twelve years ago. And I was had millions in the bank. I had success. I had like a personal brand. I had these things. But my business relationship was falling apart. My girlfriend, that relationship was falling apart.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  And I was going and playing basketball a lot in West Hollywood nearby. And I was just getting in fights all the time. Like I was so easily triggered.

• 45:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Like someone could say anything or like elbow me and I just wanted to fight people.

• 45:09Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  And I was like, what is wrong with me? So all these things started happening and I was like, I should be really happy, but I'm not. And that's when I started the podcast. That's when I started going to therapy workshops. And I was like, oh, I need to work on finding joy again and healing these things that are triggering me. And that's where I feel like I'm now at a place where I've made money and I feel peaceful as well. So it's been a, you know, a journey of the last fifteen, twenty years.

• 45:36Mark Manson?

  It's interesting because it sounds like the the transition when you were broke was it was actually more about lack of agency to agency, you know, it's like that feeling of progress, that feeling of freedom, choice of like, hope.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:51Mark Manson?

  Optimism.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Yes. What about for you? What are those?

• 45:54Mark Manson?

  It's funny. You and I actually have a very similar story here. So after I I I graduate, I'm I think two years younger than you. I finished school, uh, two thousand and seven, job market was in the toilet.

• 46:08Mark Manson?

  I had saved up. A little bit of money from playing poker, but like, didn't really have any job prospects. And so I lived on my friend's couch. Wow. For about six or seven months. Wow, in Texas or? No, this is in Boston. Okay. And my, my thought at the time was like, well, I'll, I'll figure something out. Like, I've got time. I just finished school. You know, I was still partying a lot. So I was like, I don't want to like, change my lifestyle too quickly, you know, so I'll just kind of chill out and, and see how things come. And then, of course, the crash of oh seven happens. There's no jobs anywhere. I ran out of money. And I'm, I'm living on my friend's couch and I'm like literally taking hundred dollar loans from him. Ooh. Each week. And uh. Doesn't feel powerful. No, no, it was absolutely miserable. Yes.

• 46:53Mark Manson?

  It was completely miserable. Went through a process. I actually did end up getting, uh, getting a job a few months later. Hated it. Worked some odd like part-time jobs. Eventually like found my way to starting my first business. And when I started my business, I was still broke, you know, it was like. Yeah, yeah. Scrapping together to just, I managed to pay, I remember, uh, the first seven hundred dollars I made, I, I went to the bank, I pulled it out, all out of the bank account. Basically drew my bank, bank account down to like ten, twenty bucks. Went back to the apartment and immediately handed it to my friend. Oh man, see, back to zero. Back to zero, you know? At least you didn't have that debt, you did, yeah.

• 47:36Mark Manson?

  Exactly. It was rough, but I eventually hit a point where it was like, you know, the early blogging and the early business is starting to get a little bit of traction, but like I, I still wasn't financially stable. And from there I moved, I moved in with my girlfriend at the time. She financially supported me for a while. But it, it was the same thing that you were talking about. It was like, I was learning so much. I was getting better at all these different skills. I was learning web design, copywriting. I was developing myself as a writer. I was learning marketing. I was meeting all these interesting people, starting web businesses. It just felt, I, I, I very much kind of had the same mentality of like, I don't know how long it's gonna take, but I'm eventually gonna make it.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 48:18Mark Manson?

  And that feeling kind of sustained me through all that. And it's weird because now I would never go back and like.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  I know, but you look back, you're like, those were great times.

• 48:29Mark Manson?

  I know, exactly. You get so nostalgic and like, you know, like, oh, man.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  So painful, but it's also you learn so much.

• 48:35Mark Manson?

  So much, yeah. It, it's like, I really do, uh, look back on that time very fondly and, um, it's the sort of thing I would gladly go back and do like a week again, you know? But it's like, don't stay there. It's like, it's like visiting somewhere, you know, you don't want to stay.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  And when did you feel like you had money, but you weren't happy?

• 48:54Mark Manson?

  So immediately after Solid Art took off.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  You had success and money and fame, and then you weren't happy?

• 49:00Mark Manson?

  Not, well, not immediately after, but soon after. So I would say, you know, the book came out 2016. It hit number one everywhere, uh, around New Year's 2017. And then it just stayed number one everywhere, pretty much all through 2017, 2018. And I would say, starting kind of mid 2017, I fell into a pretty deep funk. And it's funny, I look back and it really had to do with that, that agency thing. That's that optimism, that sense of progress. I just felt, you know, this, the success of the book was so vastly disproportionate from my expectation that I had no idea what to do with myself.

• 49:42Mark Manson?

  Like it, it like broke my brain. It broke all my plans, you know, for the next five years of my life. Like everything just got knocked off the table. And suddenly, you know, these massive checks are showing up in my bank account. And I'm like, I don't have to do fucking anything if I don't want to, you know? So I sat around a lot, played a lot of video games, you know, went out drinking with friends, took the wife to Paris. Like, you know, did the whole thing, but felt very lost and you very lost and very like, just disoriented, you know, kind of like afraid to, to do anything next. Because anything I do next is going to be compared to this last thing and it's, and it's, and it's going to not measure up at all.

• 50:27Mark Manson?

  In my head and in anybody's head.

• 50:30Mark Manson?

  And of course, like, nobody else really cares, but like you, like me, I care a lot, you know? It's it's it's

• 50:36Speaker 01

  And everyone else wanted what you had, and you were afraid of it in some sense.

• 50:40Mark Manson?

  Totally, totally.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  Isn't that interesting?

• 50:41Mark Manson?

  The result of this kind of became the follow up book, but it it actually made it difficult to know what the hope for. Because I'm like, I can't imagine anything better than this thing that already happened. And I'm still this like fucked up, anxious, you know, miserable dude with a hangover. Like, nothing changed.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Did you feel like you were deserving of the money?

• 51:04Mark Manson?

  So my my wife struggled quite a bit with that.

• 51:08Mark Manson?

  I

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Because she was, you guys were married, so it's your money together, but she was like, I didn't create this, you, you know?

• 51:14Mark Manson?

  I think I think that was a big part of it. It was weird for me. It was just there was like this psychological adjustment period. So I I still I did some of the same things you did, which was like, I'm still like bargain shopping for a flight to Miami.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  You're like, I'm a multimillionaire. Why am I discounting this?

• 51:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah, exactly. But for me, it wasn't. It wasn't so much out of like anxiety or stress that I was gonna go broke. It was more just like it still hadn't sunk in, like the math had not sunk in yet of like, dude, saving 50 bucks on a plane ticket is just like, it's literally not worth your time. And so there was a lot of that sort of stuff, like just kind of, like literally having to pull out a calculator and do the math and being like, oh, that is a silly thing to stress over. Like, I shouldn't even think about, you know, a dollar figure this size. So there was like, there was a learning curve around that. But I think part of the the difficult thing, and this this ties back into your book, like, people do start treating you a little bit differently. Not everybody, like,

• 52:14Mark Manson?

  I'd say two thirds of the people in my life were just very happy for me and everything was the same. But there was a a significant minority of people that Got a little bit weird. We're kind of awkward. People start kissing your ass a lot. You know, some people show up, start asking for things.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  You can feel that energy.

• 52:34Mark Manson?

  You can feel it. You can feel it. It's like the, the, the friend that used to be so cool and relaxed around you is like not relaxed anymore.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:42Mark Manson?

  And a lot of it-

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Or that needy girlfriend that you're like, okay, you know, like I need some space or whatever, you know, it's like-

• 52:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah. Or like you start hearing from people from your past that like, you know-

• 52:51Speaker 01

  Come out after 20 years, you're like, where have you been?

• 52:53Mark Manson?

  Some dude you went to high school with who's like suddenly wants to hang out and you're like, what?

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's weird.

• 52:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah, so it is, um, there's a lot of strange stuff like that that starts happening. But it was interesting watching that in people because what I quickly realized is that it really is about their relationship with money, right? Like I noticed that the people who got very awkward and uncomfortable around me or like started resenting me or trying to kiss my ass. They had a very unhealthy relationship with money. They thought-

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 53:22Mark Manson?

  Money was going to solve their problems or they measured themselves by their money. And so when I suddenly had a ton of it.

• 53:30Mark Manson?

  They got weird around me.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  It's kind of like the, I guess, the, your, your friend's parents that maybe came to your house and saw that you guys had like a nice home or something or whatever it is. And like judging and assessing.

• 53:40Mark Manson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Oh, what do you guys do for work? You know, it's like kind of shifting their energy around it.

• 53:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 53:46Mark Manson?

  So it was, um, and then you mentioned earlier about the generosity thing, like. When I was younger, especially when I was broke, I, I definitely, I think I had kind of this naive but very idealistic idea of like, you know, if I'm ever rich one day. I'm just going to take care of everybody.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 54:02Mark Manson?

  And I'm just going to pay for things, I'm going to help everybody.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  And what's the problem with that?

• 54:08Mark Manson?

  Uh, a lot of people don't like it.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 54:11Mark Manson?

  Like people don't accept it well.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 54:13Mark Manson?

  Some people do. Again, it's like most people, they accept, like it goes well.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  And they're very grateful and appreciative.

• 54:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and you, you've changed lives and they're very, you know, but there's a sizable minority of people like they, it- It doesn't sit right. It doesn't land. You know, they they take it a certain way. They're like, oh, you think, oh, now you think you can decide what I do. Or, oh, now you you think you're you can, you're better than me. So you get to tell me, you know, that you get to pay for my car instead of me, you know, like it it was really.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  They might just say, oh, I expect that you do this now without appreciating it or being grateful. There's some of that. Oh, you've got the money. So just do it for me.

• 54:51Mark Manson?

  There's some of that, too. People, some people become entitled.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:54Mark Manson?

  Some people become resentful. Some people become envious.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Isn't that interesting?

• 54:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's a.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  And you are the one at the center who has to navigate the emotions of every relationship around money.

• 55:05Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Which can feel overwhelming at times.

• 55:07Mark Manson?

  And set the boundaries and.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  You have to.

• 55:09Mark Manson?

  Expectations.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  You have to constantly reinforce a healthy relationship with everyone else's opinion around money with you.

• 55:15Mark Manson?

  Yes, and then be judged for that.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, because not people aren't gonna like it. When you say no, when you set a boundary, people don't like.

• 55:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah, they're like, oh, well, you're rich now. So you don't have time for me anymore. I see how it is.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  You're just another greedy, rich guy.

• 55:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  It's like, oh, man, so you have to navigate those opinions of you and not give a fuck.

• 55:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  You know, it's like it's.

• 55:33Mark Manson?

  It is the whole thing. I like I said, I'm like, I'm so glad you took this angle because I I have not seen this angle taken by any money or finance book in any sort of significant way. I've seen it mentioned here in passing here and there, but like, it's a it's a huge deal. Like, again, as somebody who's been on both sides of it, you know, been the broke friend and family member who had to rely on others, and then also been the wealthy friend and family member who's been relied upon. Like, it is when they have that toxic relationship with money, when they have that unhealthy relationship with money, like, it does, it hurts them and it hurts the people around them.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. And, you know, you and I both know this, that the quality of our lives are related to the quality of our relationships.

• 56:17Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  My parents fought around money and just fought around a lot of stuff, but there was always stress and anxiety and. Insecurity at home. It's one of the reasons why I left home at thirteen to go to a boarding school because I begged them to send me away. They didn't want me to leave. I begged them because I didn't feel emotionally safe. Now, they did the best they could with the tools they had. They both loved me, but they didn't love each other. So I have seen what happens when people have an unhealthy relationship with one another. And I've seen what happens when people live in fear, stress, anxiety around money in relationships with each other. Usually you break up at some point, or you infect fear on those around you if you're responsible for their lives. Based on your energy, you don't create a safe space. And

• 57:02Speaker 01

  my whole journey has been about, you know, in terms of greatness is like emotional regulation and feeling peaceful. How can we feel rich, abundant, peaceful, and good with ourselves? It's about a quality of relationship with ourselves and others and a quality of a relationship with money because it heightens the emotions of relationships in life.

• 57:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  That's why I wanted to take this angle because I see so many relationships suffer because of money stress.

• 57:28Mark Manson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  A lot of divorce happens because of money stress and arguments and disagreements. And I think it's our responsibility as individuals who have platforms where we're trying to empower people is to give them the tools to be more empowered in their relationships. And I know I struggled a lot with this, and so this was for me as much as it is for others.

• 57:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Speaking of relationships, you just got married.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Just got married, man.

• 57:54Mark Manson?

  Yeah, like two weeks ago, three weeks ago?

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Month ago.

• 57:56Mark Manson?

  Month ago.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:57Mark Manson?

  Congrats, dude.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Feels good. Feels good. And thanks for all your advice over the last couple of years talking about it, Dan.

• 58:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, I'm happy for you guys.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 58:05Mark Manson?

  She's, she's wonderful and you guys seem so happy together.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 58:09Mark Manson?

  I'm curious, what are, what were your biggest lessons leading up to, both in like, leading up to the relationship with Martha, but also like leading up to the wedding as well?

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Um, I wanted to, I had so much. I guess challenges in all my previous relationships. It is. They were not healthy in a lot of ways. And I take as much responsibility as the other people in those relationships. But I just said, when I was getting in a relationship with Martha, when we first started dating, I just promised myself, I'm gonna do everything completely opposite of what I'd done before. The George Costanza strategy. Completely, I was like, whatever I did before, let me really take inventory. Okay, I'm not gonna have, we're not, I'm not gonna get sexual early. Yeah. I'm gonna delay it as long as possible. Which for me, it was like, the hardest thing to do originally. But I was just like, I'm not going there if I want to take this seriously and see if she's a potential fit and in alignment with what I want in my life.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  And I can't make a clear decision if sex is involved. I can't. I know myself too well. Cause I'm, I feel too much. And I'll get too connected. And I won't be able to make a good decision. So I need to eliminate that. That was one. Number two was, I need to have the most honest, raw conversations and courageous conversations early and often. So we had money conversations early and often. We had conversations around kids, religion, sex, family life, all these different things early and often. Just exploring, hey, what is it we really value? What do you really want? This is before you're committed. And then before we were committed, we were going out on dating a lot.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  I was like, I'm not getting into another committed relationship unless someone's willing to go to therapy with me in the beginning. And she was like, I'm down. And every woman that I was with before, it ended in therapy and they never wanted to go. Right. So I was just like, I'm not doing this again where I'm the, the one feeling like I'm the only one growing. Right, or willing to like invest in the relationship. So she was like, I'm down. And we went to therapy early and often in the first year. Not because something was wrong, but we wanted to create agreements early on. I'm just like, I grew up with my parents arguing and fighting so frequently that it just didn't feel good. And I was like, if I'm gonna get in a relationship and get married and have kids in the future, I don't want that to be my environment. I just don't want it.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  So I want to make sure that there's anything that could be a disagreement, let's talk about it now, and see if we're in alignment. And if we're arguing all the time because we can't find alignment, then we shouldn't be together. And let's end this quickly. Not try to have fun and do like the romance phase for two years, then have the hard conversations. I was like, I'd rather end this quickly and you find a great guy and me find a great girl and us both be happy, than forcing something. So those elements really created something beautiful for, for me and for her.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  That allowed me to feel emotionally safe and peaceful like I've never felt in my life. And really feel like I could be a hundred percent me. And there was one condition I had for her when we got, when we got committed. I said, I told her, I will never get upset at you for who you're being. If this is who you are, which I think it's most of you, what I've seen in the first few months, I have no reason to get upset at you unless you're lying to me about something. Uh, but I have no reason to get upset for your, for your personality. Cause I like who you are and I'm choosing to accept you. My only caveat is you can't get upset at me for who I am.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  If there's something that's upsetting you about me, we need to discuss about it and have a courageous conversation that is not screaming a make wrong or you need to change. None of that. You can talk to me as much as you want about something, but you can't get upset at me and yell at me. It's just not something I'm willing to deal with. And so anything you have frustration with me, fine, bring it up. Let's talk about it like a human beings. And if we need to go to therapy, we can go create agreements around something. And that was kind of like my only thing.

• 1:02:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  I won't get mad at you. You don't get mad at me, but it doesn't mean we don't hide our feelings or emotions around something. We courageously communicate frequently and as much as possible if something's disturbing us.

• 1:02:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I love that. And I, I love to like a piece of advice I give the single people a lot is, is have what you just said. Have those serious conversations sooner.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:40Mark Manson?

  And, and the relationship for so many reasons. One is you just, you vet the other person earlier rather than later. It's, there's fewer emotions involved. You get less hurt. There's less fighting. But also having those conversations builds intimacy and trust. So you build the intimacy and trust at, at the get go. Rather than having to like, you know, chit chat, talk about the weather, you know, whatever for three months and then like, hope that intimacy spontaneously emerges, right? You just find out and like, sure, you're going to scare some people off and you know, you're going to find some people who aren't right for you. But it's better to find it out then than, you know, three, six months down the line.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. Two, three years later.

• 1:03:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Have more pain later. So have more pain now by the uncomfortable conversations and have a lot less pain later.

• 1:03:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah. One more thing I want to talk to you about.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:34Mark Manson?

  Uh, I saw you, when did you tell me this? I think it was like end of last year.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  It was probably like August, September.

• 1:03:43Mark Manson?

  Okay. Like six, seven months ago.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:45Mark Manson?

  You and I hung out.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:46Mark Manson?

  And you were like, I have a new goal.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:48Mark Manson?

  And I was like, oh, cool. Like very casually. I'm like, oh, cool, Louis. Like, what's your goal? And then you're like, I'm going to play in the Olympics. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And then you explained to me what you meant. And now, now I feel like your biggest fan. So.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  You're invested. You're waiting for the like Louis House Olympic vlog.

• 1:04:05Mark Manson?

  I'm so.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  You'll be the one person that watches this.

• 1:04:08Mark Manson?

  I'm so emotionally invested in this. I, I'm going to be there in the front row.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  You better be there. If I make the Olympics, you gotta come.

• 1:04:15Mark Manson?

  I will fucking be there. Tell me, so tell everybody.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  So this isn't necessarily a new goal. This is probably a, a goal I've had or a dream since I was

• 1:04:24Mark Manson?

  To revive goal.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, since I was five.

• 1:04:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  You know, since the first time I can remember watching sports on TV with my dad. It was like Ohio State football in the Olympics.

• 1:04:34Mark Manson?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  It was like something that he loved watching. And I always wanted to play football. And I always wanted to be in the Olympics just by like being inspired by the stories of these athletes who've given their lives for a dream.

• 1:04:45Mark Manson?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  And I've always loved that. Uh, and so for me, when I was done playing arena football, I got to live this dream for like six, seven months. Again, I didn't make the NFL, which was my ultimate dream, but I got to get paid to catch a football, which for me, it was kind of like I was poor but fulfilled.

• 1:05:05Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  You know, 250 bucks a week, you're making nothing. But I was like, man, I'm living the dream. You know, it's okay. Give me food stamps all day long. I'm good to go. Uh, cause I was pursuing something that was meaningful to me. When that kind of injury happened, I broke my wrist, had to have surgery. I'm on my sister's couch. It's 2008. Um, I just get my cast off. It's the Summer Olympics. So I guess it's end of July. I just get it off a couple of months before then. Still on my sister's couch. I'm watching the Olympics, Beijing, 2008. Michael Phelps is like the biggest thing in the world. You know, uh, and at 3 a.m. there's a sport that comes on called Team Handball. And I watched this and I'm mesmerized. I'm just like, what? I've never seen this before.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  And it was mesmerizing. And it's a big sport in Europe. No one knows what it is in the U.S. And I was like, it just activated a dream inside of me. This 2008. And I was like, I'm going to the Olympics and handball. I don't know how it's gonna happen, but I'm gonna figure out how to be on the USA team.

• 1:06:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  And qualify for the Olympics. I start Googling like crazy, like USA handball, teams in Ohio, wherever it might be. How can I find a team to go play for? There's no team in Ohio. There's club teams, uh, throughout the big cities in the USA. And I was just like, okay, there's a club team in New York City where they're the national champions, New York City Handball Team. And I was like, I gotta find a way to move to New York City and learn handball. I'm emailing like the USA Handball Organization, but there's no one replying to me. It's kind of unorganized. I'm like, how do I get a tryout? How do I make the team? Nothing's happening. So I'm like, I'm going to New York City to play with the national champs. I need a coach and a model that I can mimic, that I can go learn from. But I don't have any money. It takes me uh two years to make money.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Where then I finally go to New York City. I show up. Because no one would reply to me by emailing people on the team. So they have an address of where they practice. I show up to their address. It's in Brooklyn. And I go there and everyone's like, who are you? And I was like, my name's Lewis Howes. I'm here to make the USA national team and go to the Olympics. And there's probably thirty guys in the gym and they all started laughing at me. No joke. I'm the only American in the gym. Good. It's all like Eastern European guys who played professionally back in the day. Germany, France, Poland, all these places that have moved to New York to live and they just play for fun.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  And they were like, this is our last practice of the season. If you're serious, come back in three months if you want to play. I come back three months later, same thing. I play with the team for the next nine months. I make the USA national team. And in my mind, I'm like, this is incredible. I start playing with USA across my chest. And I'm playing in Buenos Aires against Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Mexico, all these international teams. And I get a taste of international competition, of representing the USA. Some of the greatest moments are just wearing the jersey. It's incredible. And I was just like, I need to go to the Olympics. But in order to go to the Olympics in USA team handball, you'd have to win the Pan American Games.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Because they take one country from North and South America. You have to win that tournament to go. But we were never good enough to win this tournament. So my thought was, how can the USA get the bid for the Olympics? If they can get it in twenty sixteen, twenty twenty, I have a chance. They don't get the bid. So my dreams kind of like fall off because I'm like, it doesn't matter how good I get as a player. The team has to win. And that means the team has to be great. Brazil and Argentina and Chile are just better because they play since they're like seven. Right. All of us play when we're like twenty five and we find out about the sport. So we might be better athletes, but they're better players. And so it was just like, we can never beat them, never be competitive enough.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Um, so my dreams kind of died for a while because I was like, oh, man, I'm never going to be able to do this. And this is the only sport I could potentially do this in because there's less competition in America. Yeah. That's why.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  And then, and then the bid for 2028 comes out. I think it was like 10 years ago when this happened, or maybe it's eight years ago when this happened. And at that point, I was like, oh, man, this is 10 years away. I'm going to be 45 when this happens. And the dream just kind of started to like dwindle. And I was just like, it's so far away. And I can't train year round while I have this business and this show and like I'm in LA. I'd have to move to Europe. Is it worth it? And at the point it wasn't, but I kept playing. I kept staying in shape. I kept trying to play with the USA team just for fun to see. I was like, maybe there's a chance, but I'm not going to officially retire.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  And then the Olympics come around in August last year. And I saw you right after then. And I was like, I need to go to Paris and I need to watch some games and see if it's still alive in me. And I get there and man, did that like dream just reactivate inside of me watching him on the Olympics. I was like, ah, I want this, you know? Cause I wanted to see like, do I even care anymore?

• 1:10:15Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  But it was like, man, it is there. I took a plane while I was in Paris to a team, to go see a coach and a team in Spain, a professional team that I knew.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Cause he said, come out here and do a practice in the trial. So I go out there and I do a practice and I'm like, I think I, I'm not where I was 10 years ago. But I'm not horrible.

• 1:10:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  And I was like, with the right training, if I stay healthy, who knows what's possible? And for the last, I guess, seven months, I've been rehabbing my body. I've been training. I've been doing all these different things just for the opportunity to go play for a month with a team in Spain to see what I, how that feels for one month. Now we're still three and a half years away.

• 1:10:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  So much could happen the next three and a half years. But I, I was telling you before we started this conversation, I just feel like I will always regret if I don't pursue this as far as it can go. And if there's a dream that I've had for this long, I can't just let it die. Unless I really don't care about it anymore and I say, ah, I don't have any interest, then okay, let it die. But if there's like a fire inside you, I feel like you have to pursue it. And there's gonna be some beautiful lessons along the way. So we'll see. I mean, it's like a marathon and I'm just like one step, one day, one month at a time right now.

• 1:11:34Mark Manson?

  How's it gone so far? I mean, you're, you're what, four or five months into the journey?

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, four or five, maybe six months into the journey of just like rehabbing. I lost like 25 pounds. But there's definitely been some like injuries and setbacks and pains and I'm like, oh, I can't play the way I used to. So I have to use vision, my mindset, recovery a different way. I can't just be reckless.

• 1:11:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  You know, so it's, it's learning how to play the game differently at this season of life.

• 1:12:00Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 1:12:01Speaker 01

  But so far, so good. I've played twice. I played in two games at the end of last year. And there was a couple 27 year old professionals that I was playing with. They were like, you're pretty good. And it was the first time in five years I played. So I was like, okay, I can still hang with like 25 year olds.

• 1:12:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  So if I can get better every day for the next three and a half years, who knows what's possible.

• 1:12:25Mark Manson?

  Got to call up Tom Brady, get that, get some of that.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Give me the routine, the protocols, everything.

• 1:12:30Mark Manson?

  The secret, the secret serum or something. Yeah.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  I need it. Yeah. So I'm excited. You know, I think it's like, it's learning to be grateful just for the opportunity every day to pursue it.

• 1:12:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  It's something I'm also excited about because it seems so far away. Three and a half years seems like forever right now for me. But I just am trying to bring it back to day by day. Like I'm just grateful for the opportunity to pursue this.

• 1:12:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52Speaker 01

  And that gives me a lot of joy.

• 1:12:53Mark Manson?

  I love ambitious goals and I, I love ambitious goals that are so ambitious. They seem like slightly unhinged.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Crazy, man. Yeah.

• 1:13:00Mark Manson?

  It's like, it just, and as soon as you started, cause I remember you were like, I'm gonna play in the Olympics. And I was like, what Louis, what the fuck dude? Like, and then you started explaining it to me and I was like, bro, I'm fucking, I'm in.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Maybe there's a chance. Yeah. Yeah, man. But just saying that, yeah, I'm gonna be an Olympian. It seems like a crazy thing to, if for some podcaster.

• 1:13:20Mark Manson?

  Absolutely.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  You're like, what?

• 1:13:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah, in 42, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  But um, once you understand the context of it, it's like, if I can stay healthy and strong, I believe I have a very good chance.

• 1:13:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  In three and a half years.

• 1:13:34Mark Manson?

  Well, I'm rooting for you. The audience is rooting for you. We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll keep tabs on you.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:13:40Mark Manson?

  Check out the book, everybody. Uh, Lewis Howes. It's been a pleasure.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  Thanks, Matt. Appreciate you.

• 1:13:46Mark Manson?

  Glad, glad we got you on.

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, man.

• 1:13:48Mark Manson?

  Awesome.

• 1:13:50Mark Manson?

  The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Bernie. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura, Jessica Choy is our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.