Re-Air: #1 Body Language Expert Explains Subtle Cues Impact Everything From Dating To Work Promotions | Vanessa Van Edwards

What if the way you say “hello” is holding you back in life? This week, we’re revisiting our episode with Vanessa Van Edwards: body language expert, behavioral researcher, and founder of Science of People. She shares powerful insights from her bestselling book Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication. In this must-watch episode, the charisma training guru and TED Talk speaker reveals how unconscious social cues—like tone of voice, microexpressions, posture, and awkward hand gestures—can quietly sabotage your confidence, relationships, and career. Learn the behavioral science behind first impressions, how to decode body language, spot deception, and overcome your “Resting Bothered Face.” Discover nonverbal communication tips to build instant trust, increase likability, and reframe social anxiety into a personal advantage. Whether you’re an introvert craving better people skills or a leader looking to level up your professional communication, Vanessa Van Edwards has the charisma cues you need to change how the world sees you and how you see yourself. Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Iam Bialik.

• 0:05Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 0:06Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to our Breakdown. Today, we're going to talk about body language. We're talking to body language expert, behavioral researcher Vanessa Van Edwards.

• 0:16Jonathan Cohen?

  The amazing part of this conversation, never, ever start a sentence with hello.

• 0:22Mayim Bialik?

  I thought I was doing everything right in life. Vanessa Van Edwards is here to explain that the way you say hello could actually be a sign that something is holding you back in your life. She talks about unconscious social cues, tone of voice, micro expressions, posture, and also the awkward hand gestures, which I specifically like to use, what they can mean about, really, your social comfortability and your ability to succeed.

• 0:48Jonathan Cohen?

  She explains that people are building an understanding of who we are just based on our body language and our facial expressions, categorizing us into whether or not we are leaders, whether or not we are trustworthy, whether or not we are the right potential mate, and it all happens in milliseconds.

• 1:06Mayim Bialik?

  The episode's for everyone, from introverts who want better people skills to leaders looking to level up their professional communication skills. Make sure to check us out on Substack for content you can't get anywhere else.

• 1:17Jonathan Cohen?

  Check out Iam Bialik's Breakdown on Substack.

• 1:19Mayim Bialik?

  And now, enjoy our conversation with Vanessa Van Edwards.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  Break it down. I'm so happy to be here.

• 1:27Mayim Bialik?

  I already feel self-conscious because one of the things about you is that you are, you know, you are the person who knows pretty much the most that I could imagine knowing about how people communicate and the cues that we give. So I already felt self-conscious when I was like, hello, like, am I saying it right? And in your book, you talk about this exercise, and I'm like, is that a happy hello? Was it a powerful hello that I gave her? Was it an inquisitive hello?

• 1:57Speaker 02

  I loved your hello. I loved it.

• 2:01Mayim Bialik?

  What about Jonathan? Jonathan is a softer spoken-

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Oh, no, Jonathan's, no, didn't, no, I'm just joking, Jonathan. I loved it. I loved it. I'm just joking. I'm teasing you.

• 2:10Jonathan Cohen?

  It was all wrong. I have to redo. Hello?

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 2:14Mayim Bialik?

  That's your questioning hello.

• 2:15Jonathan Cohen?

  Hello.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Hello. Yes. It's your vocal first impression. We decide how confident someone is within 200 milliseconds of hearing them speak. So really smart people, they have this problem where they prep their ideas, their content, for a meeting or an interview or a date, and they don't realize that actually, someone decides if they're going to trust them in that first word.

• 2:39Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, that means a lot less preparing is necessary in my life.

• 2:41Speaker 02

  I think it's good news. I'm like, this is good news. It means all we have to do is practice that first word. Now, look, of course, if you don't say anything substantial after that, it's hard to recover. But that first word, it kind of makes or breaks your confidence. Either it sets your entire interaction up for success, or you're kind of clawing your way back in terms of confidence.

• 3:01Mayim Bialik?

  I'm going to ask a really basic question. Like, if you had to tell me, percentage-wise, you know, how much of what we communicate conveys who we are versus how we communicate it, what's the percentage split?

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Okay, well, we have to think about our traits, like what we're signaling. That's called, uh, social signals or our cues, versus just the shape of our face, the way that we look, what we're wearing. And so I think that most of what we're signaling to others is our social signals, our cues. But we also have a baseline. I would even say 50% is just our face shape, our hair, our body shape. We can tell a lot by just that thin slice, that first impression. They even found that, um, when someone looks at a profile picture of someone, they can guess four out of five personality traits with 76% accuracy.

• 3:52Mayim Bialik?

  What?

• 3:53Speaker 02

  I know. So when you're looking at a Tinder profile, you might not be wrong about that little-

• 3:58Mayim Bialik?

  Wait, so hold on. I was taught, don't judge a book by its cover. I was taught, like-

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Lies. Lies. Lies. Yeah. I know. We do judge books by their cover, and this is really important for us to know. If we can't help but judge a book by its cover, shouldn't we have the best possible cover and then social signal on purpose?

• 4:19Mayim Bialik?

  Sorry, I'm just like, I'm having a big problem, especially as like a female person, a busy person, because like, there's so much to keep up with and trends keep changing. So it's also like, I don't know, what, how far do you take that? When I looked at dating apps after I was divorced, I was astounded that like, the prettiest girls that I never thought I could compete with were all on an app together. And you could just like, see millions of them. And I was constantly comparing myself and feeling like, I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna be able to match up. How does that work in a world that you're now telling me is increasingly driven by those impressions?

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Okay, here's what's really important is, we are more attracted to, and this isn't just physically or in romance, it's also professionally and socially, we are attracted to people who like us. We are attracted to people who signal availability. And they've actually tested this. So researchers looked at a bunch of singles in a dating scenario, like a, a big bar speed dating scenario. And when they had the singles mingle, they found that the women who signaled the most availability were approached the most and got the most numbers, not the most attractive women. So what we want as humans is, one, we don't want to be rejected, and two, we want someone who is open to us. By the way, can you guess, so in a 10-minute, 10-minute speed dating test, how many availability

• 5:41Speaker 02

  signals did a woman have to send to a man for him to approach?

• 5:46Jonathan Cohen?

  I think the number's going to be low. I think the number's going to be low.

• 5:49Mayim Bialik?

  I think it's gonna be like, one.

• 5:51Jonathan Cohen?

  I was gonna say like, two or three, maybe.

• 5:53Mayim Bialik?

  One signal. I show you my breasts, you come over.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  29 signals.

• 5:57Mayim Bialik?

  What? I don't even know 29 signals.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  It was the same signal over and over again. Specifically, we love, the availability signals are, quick glances, right? So like, the flirty glance. Hmm, hmm, hmm, quick glances.

• 6:10Mayim Bialik?

  Are you flirting with me, Vanessa?

• 6:12Speaker 02

  I was flirting with you. I was. Did you like it? I'm so out of practice. I've been with my husband for 20 years. Did you like it? It's a little-

• 6:18Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, that's the, that's the quick glance.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, quick glance. Smiles, so like, a quick like, hmm. I call it a saver smile when you're, like, the smile blossoms on your face, right? You're like, hmm. Hmm, right. But you have to actually like the person, right? I was, I was doing a, I wasn't, I was just showing you how it works. So, quick glances, uh, slow saver smile, and, um, angling the body towards them and like dipping towards them, so like, a little bit of, aren't you, don't you feel that I'm flirting with you? Look how, look, don't you feel flirted with?

• 6:48Mayim Bialik?

  Does that work?

• 6:50Speaker 02

  29 times it does. So here's, here's what, I'm so glad you both guessed one, because that's the problem with humanity right now. We think we are so obvious with our signals that everyone knows how we feel, but actually, we are facing an under-signaling crisis. In that, we think we should play it cool, we think that we're too obvious, but actually, we are desperate as humans to know, do you like me? Should I approach? Do I belong? And so what, my entire mission in, on this planet is to, one, if you're dating or single, you're going to signal your availability to as many people as possible to find your person. Two, if you're lonely and you're looking for friends, you are signaling, I like you,

• 7:34Speaker 02

  I like you, so you find your best friend. And lastly, at work, you are not under-signaling your competence and your trust, so you're signaling credibility and respect. If we could fix this signaling issue, all of our problems, I think, people's problems would go away.

• 7:49Mayim Bialik?

  I'm sorry, I'm hung up on the shoulder dip.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Harold, it again for you. Here you go. That's it.

• 7:55Jonathan Cohen?

  It's worthy of a summary, because we're talking about likability, belonging, credibility, respect. What did I miss?

• 8:03Speaker 02

  So that's it. And, and in sum, all the women in the experiment, so they, they did, this is a huge experiment, it was very interesting, is they found that the women in the experiment, no matter how attractive they were, it did not matter if they were quote-unquote attractive, or what they were wearing, or what their hair was like, or what their makeup was like. All that mattered for if they were going to find their guy was how many times they signaled availability, which puts us in control of how people treat us. So I want us to focus on that, whatever, 50% that we can control, because that can change everything. If we know exactly how to signal to others, you can trust me, you can rely on me, those are the two questions that we ask the most about human beings.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  We are in interaction, social, professional, romantic, we are trying to assess very quickly someone's warmth and competence. So the faster we can signal, you can trust me and you can rely on me, the more we quickly bond with others. That is what makes someone highly charismatic, or highly attractive, or highly magnetic, or highly dynamic. All those words basically boil down to, how fast are you signaling trust and reliability?

• 9:10Jonathan Cohen?

  Would you say that we have a connection crisis right now?

• 9:13Speaker 02

  I think we have a connection crisis right now, and I know that because of my inbox. I talk about connection. I talk about human behavior. I talk about communication. And I've been doing it for 17 years. And every single year, the amount of emails, and I mean in the thousands, that we are getting from people who say, I so desperately want to connect, but I am so lonely. I have no idea how to make friends. I have no idea how to find my partner. I have, or, and this is the other bucket, I'm super smart, I have great ideas, but I can't get by in it work. I can't pitch my idea to a team. I am overlooked and underestimated for raises and promotions, and it has nothing to do with their actual intelligence or their actual likability. They're just not signaling it clearly enough. So yes, I think we're in a crisis.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  It's why I'm on this podcast. Let's fix it. Let's fix it together.

• 10:01Mayim Bialik?

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• 11:31Jonathan Cohen?

  And a lot of people then just assume that it's them. There's something fundamentally wrong with them, that they're not dateable, they're not lovable, and they build these internal narratives that are so self-destructive that lead to depression, to lead to clinical anxiety. And then we medicate them because we say, oh, don't have this narrative that there's something fundamentally wrong with you. There isn't something fundamentally wrong with you, but then they're still stuck in this trap, not knowing that they are participating, as you said, up to 50% in signaling how their external environment is actually interacting with them.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  You know, I'm a recovering awkward person. I have a lot of awkwardness. I spent many years thinking something was fundamentally wrong with me. And so my goal is that it has nothing to do with you. In fact, you are great. We just have to make sure that we're signaling correctly, and that is it. I think that we have to stop the loop sooner. Because what happens when we're awkward? We feel awkward, so we under-signal or signal wrong. A lot of people also, they'll mute their signals, they'll send, I call them dream killer signals, like cues that are just like, they will just kill any kind of reaction or connection. And then they get even more awkward because I think something's wrong with them. They're like, I give up. I'm not going to connect. I'm not going to do it.

• 12:44Jonathan Cohen?

  How do people signal trust, reliability, warmth, competence? What are the key signals that indicate that? And then conversely, what are the key signals that are undercutting? Here are the signals not to do if you want to convey trust and reliability.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  So very first is we want to make sure that we are signaling likability. So the worst thing we can do is a couple of very negative, nonverbal cues. The first one is a lip purse. So this is very easy. If you press your lips together, mm, mm. It's a universal sign of withholding, and I don't like this. It's like we literally close our mouth to either hold in what we're actually thinking or we don't want to take anything in. In a first impression, when someone is talking to you, when someone is opening up to you, you want to make sure that you're not accidentally lip-pursing. If you are interacting and you see someone lip-pursing, they might be withholding, they might be holding something back. This is when I say, are we good? Does this make sense? Anything you want to mention? That is uncovered more hidden hangups, just sayings to someone.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Are we good? Are we good here? So avoiding lip purs. Second, same area of the face, I like to say the same area of the face, is a contempt micro-expression. So contempt micro-expression is a one-sided smile.

• 14:00Mayim Bialik?

  This is Jonathan. I always text him during podcasts. He's like, listening, but I'm like, why do you look angry?

• 14:08Speaker 02

  No, resting, bothered face is real. So, or RBF, right, as people call it. And this is because at rest, like for example, at rest, my face looks sad. You want to see my face at rest? Here's my face at rest, it kind of... I'm fine, but don't I look really sad?

• 14:23Mayim Bialik?

  Yes, you look like Jonathan.

• 14:24Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm just at rest a lot.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  So Jonathan, you and I, by default, and this is just the shape of our facial features, you know, as we age, we tend to either get angry or sad. We tend to look angry or sad, even if we're not actually angry or sad. And so at rest, people are seeing that facial expression, they're seeing that facial feedback, and they're like, well, I guess I'm doing a bad job. I guess we're not connecting. I'm going to disconnect. So contempt is one of them at rest that people do all the time. So it's a one-sided mouth raise, kind of like a smirk. You can try it with me if you want, just one time. Mm-hmm. Don't you feel kind of better then? Like, hmm, hmm, hmm. This is, we actually tested this in our company where we asked people what they thought this expression meant with models, and most people thought it meant boredom. But actually contempt is a very negative expression.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  It shows scorn, or disdain, or disrespect, or better than. And I see it in a lot of profile pictures. I see people do it at rest. And so we need to make sure that if you're going to show a facial expression...

• 15:21Mayim Bialik?

  It's like, because some people think it's like sassy bitchy, like, mm.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Exactly. Or like, yeah, like a little funny attitude, but actually it's so scornful and negative. And Dr. John Gottman, he's a marriage and family counselor.

• 15:31Mayim Bialik?

  I was just going to say contempt is one of the four horsemen.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Exactly. So in his marriage research, where he followed thousands of couples, he found he can predict which couples will get divorced with 93.6% accuracy just by looking for the contempt micro-expression. Meaning, he can watch a silent video of a couple and tell you with 93.6% accuracy if that couple will get divorced. What this means is because contempt is one of those emotions that doesn't go away, it sort of festers if it's not addressed. And so, one, you want to make sure that you are not accidentally signaling contempt at rest or in your profile pictures. Second, if you see contempt on your partner, or a teammate, or a friend, you want to immediately address it. You say, are we good? Everything all right?

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Or, I was just listening to this great podcast, and they talked about contempt. What's going on for you? Right? Like, the more we talk about these emotions, the more clear we are with our signals and our understanding of these signals, the better we are.

• 16:27Jonathan Cohen?

  Resting face, contempt lip. I have a horrible Zoom face. I have been called out multiple times. People are like, and really, have to work on it. How then do we signal trust and reliability?

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Okay, so, once we've gotten rid of, those are just a couple of the negative ones. The next thing we want to do is signal trust. And research out of Princeton University found that when we're interacting, trust comes first, reliability or credibility comes second. So it is important to focus on trust first. The very first thing that we want for trust is mutual gazing. So even over video, we, all of us on this podcast are getting oxytocin. Anyone who's watching the video is also going to get oxytocin. Oxytocin does a lot of things in our bodies, but for us, it's the chemical of connection. It makes us want to talk and open up. It makes me want to say yes. It makes us want to bond. And so eye contact, this is why those availability signals, those flirty glances.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Every single time that they caught eyes, both members of that dyad, the couple, were producing oxytocin. That is the exact chemical we need to fall in love. Literally, it is the chemical behind love. So when we are interacting, the worst thing we can do is this, and I'm holding up my phone, uh-huh, yeah, how was your day? Good? Yeah, great. Uh-huh. Where we are taking away the actual chemical that we need to bond, to feel trustworthy, and to feel connected. So in those first 10 seconds of a video call, of an interaction, of a meeting, of a date, of a presentation, you want to make sure you are glancing with each person in the room. You're gifting out oxytocin.

• 18:09Mayim Bialik?

  Throwing it out there, all my oxytocin.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Yes, just gift it, like Oprah. You get oxytocin, you get oxytocin, you get oxytocin.

• 18:17Mayim Bialik?

  What's another good one?

• 18:18Speaker 02

  Okay, so eye contact is the first one. The second one, and this is a weird one, it's kind of weird. Hands. We love hand gestures. Now, go back with me to our caveman days. There's a reason why humans love hands so much, is because back in our caveman days, if we were approached by a stranger caveman, we didn't know if they were going to hurt us, if they were carrying a rock or a spear, if they were going to wave at us. And so we look at hands to show intention. And so when we first see someone, if we can't see someone's hand, so for example, if I were to put my hands off-camera for this entire podcast, behind my back, it would be harder for you to trust me?

• 18:56Mayim Bialik?

  You could be holding a gun?

• 18:57Speaker 02

  I could be holding a gun, or a rock, or a spear, or who knows what's back there? And your brain's like, where are her hands? What does she mean? And especially in person. In person, we're trying to prevent the most awkward moment in all of humanity, which is, are we going to handshake, hug, high five, fist bump, or wave? What are we going to do?

• 19:16Mayim Bialik?

  Or get punched in the face.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Or get punched in the face, or get slapped in the face, or what are you going to do with that hand? Right? And so we are aware of hand gestures, and if I were to keep mine back there, it would be very distracting. So one is, hands first. So the moment I hop on camera, morning, good to see everyone. Like, I immediately signal my palm, and something happens in your brain when I do that. When I show my palm on camera, even for that little split second when I wave, it disengages your amygdala, which is our fear processing part of our brain, to go, ah, I can trust her. It's silly, but it's like, I'm literally not concealing anything. The second thing that happens, so I always greet, you know, I wave hello, and then I will go in, if we were in person, I would socially signal to you the physical touch greeting that I wanted.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  So I would probably, with you, go in for a handshake, and so I would come right up, I would signal right away, I would put my hand out in front of me, that I'm coming in, coming in for the handshake. Tell your brain, I'm coming, it's coming, this handshake is coming. And the moment we have any kind of physical touch, cheek kiss, fist bump, high five, handshake, we both produce oxytocin. So we are, as humans, evolved, literally, to have eye contact and then some kind of touch greeting. That is why it felt so weird in COVID when we like, weren't touching anyone, and we were like, ooh, I feel so disconnected. We literally were missing the oxytocin. The last one I'll give on credibility, so we are also aware of gestures while we speak.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  And we look to gestures for comprehension. So for example, if I were to say, I have a really big idea, but I were to hold up my fingers like...

• 20:53Mayim Bialik?

  You'd be George W. Bush.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Just so little, it's just so little. Right? Like, I'm holding up my fingers like little. You're more likely to believe my gesture over my words. You're more likely to say, but Vanessa, it looks so small. Or if I were to say, today I want to talk to you about three big ideas.

• 21:10Jonathan Cohen?

  And she's holding up five fingers.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Yes. When I do that, your brain gives 12.5 times more weight to my gesture. So you're literally more likely to believe my hand. Why? Liars use less gesture.

• 21:24Mayim Bialik?

  What?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  It is liars use less gesture. Why? It's really hard to lie with your hands. For example, right now, let's do a test. Everyone listening, say five, but hold up three. Ready, go.

• 21:35Mayim Bialik?

  Third, oh, it is hard.

• 21:38Mayim Bialik?

  It's the strip effect, but for hand gestures.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  It's, it's so hard to lie with gesture. Like when I hold up five, ooh, ooh, it hurts our brain. And so we instinctively know that if someone is not using a lot of gesture, they either don't know what they're talking about. It's memorized or it's a lie. And a lot of liars memorize their lies. So in our lab, we do a lot of lie detection research. We look for lying tells. And often liars restrict their gestures because they haven't practiced those. And it's really hard to lie with them. And so we love people who show congruent gestures. So if I'm here and I say, today I have a really big idea and I hold my hands out like beach ball big. Oh, it looks so big. Or if I say, oh my gosh, it's from the heart and I touch my heart. You're like, wow, it really is from the heart. Or if I say I have two ideas and then I say, first, we're going to talk about second.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Your brain can relax because it feels like, wow, this speaker knows her content so well, she can speak to me on two tracks. She can speak to me with her words, but also her gestures and they align.

• 22:38Mayim Bialik?

  I want to ask a question about lying, since you just mentioned it. There are so many people that, you know, I was just thinking about, I'm not going to name names. A relationship I once had many, many, many, many moons ago, many, many, many moons ago.

• 22:57Mayim Bialik?

  This person was lying to me, like consistently, consistently. And I remember at the time, people were like, don't trust that person. And of course I was like, I was young and whatever. But what about people who are so expert? And we do find this, I think historically more when you think about like the men lying, right? And I'm sure women do it too, and I know they do. But there's this kind of like persona of the guy who's lying to you and you find out like he was engaged or, you know, he had another family. What is it about us that we cannot see those lies?

• 23:41Speaker 02

  So this was a couple of weeks ago where I had my group of friends. One of them was dating someone new and all of my friends had met him before I did. And they were like, oh, Vanessa, you're going to love him. You're going to love him. He's great. You're going to love him. He's amazing. I finally get to meet him and I'm like, uh-oh. Uh-oh. Because I can see this guy is full of it. Like so many lying tells. And I, and I'm worried because I, I'm, all my friends and my friend who's in love, she's in love. She's in love. She is overridden with oxytocin.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  Oxytocin is a wonderful chemical, but it messes with our

• 24:23Speaker 02

  decoding. It messes with our ability to spot cues. Why? They've even found that in a lab, if they give people nasal sprays full of oxytocin, they trust more, they give away more in their prisoner's dilemma games. They talk more, they bond more, they fall in love more in the lab. So if we have too much, and if you have someone who is very excellent at giving oxytocin, they're making such deep gazing with you. They're, you know, physically touching you, they're holding you, they're cuddling with you. And also mutual laughter is another way that we have a lot of oxytocin. Me too moments are ways that we have oxytocin. Like if someone says, oh, you love that show? I love that show too. That produces that. And it makes us feel like there's so much connection here. How could they possibly be lying to me?

• 25:07Speaker 02

  And it kind of blinds us to the signals being sent to us. So I was in this horrible situation where I was very worried about this guy. And I was like, you know, she's in love with him. Maybe he's just like showing off or maybe he's just made a bad, had a bad night. So I let go, I let it go. And like two weeks later, we find out he's lying about everything. Fake name, fake career, was sending fake photos, was trying to trap her.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I had this like moment where I was like, what are we gonna do? I felt so bad that I didn't say anything, but I also was like, well, she was in love. I don't know if she would have heard me. And I think that this is the issue is like, you didn't want to hear your friends, right? When they told you.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  And so I think that we have to really empower ourselves with knowing what the cues are. So we're not guessing. And once we know these, because there's 97 cues to learn, they're not that hard. Even if you know 10 of them, like after this podcast, you already know a bunch of them. Like we know lip pursing, we know contempt. We know, um, oh, I'll teach you one more for, for liars. So liars will restrict hand gestures. One more that you should watch out for is an incongruent nod. So in Western cultures, when we say yes, we shake our head vertically. We say no, we shake our head horizontally. Liars don't practice their nonverbal cues. And so they'll often say yes, but shake their head no. So it looks like this. What do you think of the new girl? Oh yeah, you know, she's, she's great.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  And they'll shake their head no while they're saying yes, or they're saying great. So watch out for those incongruencies. If we are empowered by those, and I also was someone I felt lied to a lot when I was younger. The reason this is why I got into this work is I wanted to protect myself. We can empower ourselves with those cues and then we know we're not misinterpreting anything. Once we know to spot a cue, it's much easier to see it. You can't really unsee it. I joke with my students that it's kind of like a blessing and a curse. Like, once you know how to spot these cues, you'll start seeing them everywhere. And that means we have to make a choice. We have to make a choice. Are we willing to live in radical honesty? Which means hard truths, which means seeing cues that might be inconvenient? Or do we want to live in blissful ignorance? I would always choose hard truth.

• 27:18Jonathan Cohen?

  What about those liars who are lying to themselves? Do they have the same cues if they're in their own delusion?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Oh, Jonathan, that's the hardest question of all. Nope. Simple answer is nope. And this is my kryptonite. This is my kryptonite or my Achilles heel, or whatever metaphor you want to use. Self deceivers drive me crazy. I think that everyone sort of has core values and especially core relationship values. And my number one core value in a relationship is self honesty. Because if someone is self deceptive, they don't leak any cues. And it's impossible. Like I had a friend who I'm trying to not be friends with anymore because of this. Because she believes her own lies.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  And so even when I say, you know, I don't, I don't know if the sky is purple. Like I really haven't noticed that much. Like maybe like if I squint, but I really think it's blue. And she's like, oh, no, no, I know the sky is blue. What do you do with that? And so no, self deceivers are a real problem. And that's a choice. Another hard truth you have to make is like, can I put up with that? Can I enable that?

• 28:34Jonathan Cohen?

  I, I knew someone who did this very interesting tell that I couldn't quite figure out, which was that when they spoke and they were trying to explain what I thought were some truths, some have truths, they would sniff a lot.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:53Jonathan Cohen?

  And I couldn't figure out if it was a purposeful deception or if they were actually trying to figure out their own reality. Because it didn't feel malicious, but it felt off kilter some way.

• 29:06Mayim Bialik?

  Can you give us an example? Like, was it like a tic?

• 29:09Jonathan Cohen?

  It was, it was definitely a tic. And they would explain sort of a situation and a dynamic and it was work related. And it was like, they were trying to build a reality and share it with me. And I never knew how much of it was sort of wishful thinking, them trying to, you know, reconcile things that didn't make sense to present a front that I should believe in. But it like, there was, there was a level of incongruence that felt off to me, but I couldn't. Put my finger on if it was purposeful manipulation or, or what it was.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  You are so, that is such a amazing note because sniffing, nose touching, nasal dilation, weird, I know, is a signal, not a Pinocchio's nose. Pinocchio's nose literally comes from this. They have found that when they observe blood flow in liars' faces, we get increased blood flow in the tissues of our nose. This is how the animator got the idea for Pinocchio's nose, is some people can feel it. Like, there are people listening who are like, oh, my gosh. I totally feel my nose itch and tickle when I lie. Some people are aware of this feeling. So you're absolutely right. When someone is conjecturing, or lying, or bending the truth, they will get increased blood flow in the tissue in their nasal wings.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  It also can cause nasal wing dilation. And so what happens, it looks like this. Yeah, I just like, I, I don't know why they do that, but.

• 30:41Jonathan Cohen?

  In that circumstance, they may not fully be lying, but there's an incongruency between the reality that they're presenting and the one that they're experiencing internally.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  And there is some guilt in there, right? Like, they're like, it's the guilt, fear cocktail that causes that weird blood flow. Now, I want to make a really important note here is, lie detection is very hard. It's a very challenging science because there's not a single cue that means someone's lying. There are statistical cues to deceive. There are things that often liars do when they're lying. So it would be important in that, and you mentioned it by accident. So you, you totally got this, which is, with the people in our life and ourselves, we need to understand their baseline, what they look like when they're telling the truth. If someone is always allergic and always touching their nose, that is not a cue for them. But if all of a sudden they get into a, a topic, or they're saying something, and all of a sudden

• 31:35Speaker 02

  we're seeing three or four lying cues, or statistical cues to deceive in a row, that's what I would call a hotspot area. So all of a sudden, to see the sniffing and the nose touching, that's when I would go, wait a minute, what is going on here? There's some underlying emotion that you're picking up on.

• 31:50Mayim Bialik?

  Um, I wonder if you can talk a little bit. And, you know, you, you do so much incredible research, but there's something I'm really interested in as you talk about also you being a recovering awkward person. I think about, uh, people on the spectrum. I think about the difference in reading social cues, which we know is a component of certain aspects of neurodivergence. But I'm also really kind of drawing on, you know, episodes we've done with like Gabor Maté, when we've talked about trauma, and how, you know, having clinical PTSD and, and things like that can often blunt our ability to read cues and also produce them.

• 32:33Mayim Bialik?

  Can you talk a little bit about what you know about trauma and how it impacts our ability to know ourselves and know the intentions of others?

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Yes, it absolutely can. It can blunt our ability to, for social cognition, ability to read cues. It can also blunt our oxytocin response, because maybe we've had connections or touch that hasn't produced, that hasn't been positive. And so absolutely, it disrupts so many, so many small cycles that are happening that we aren't even aware of, that, oh, my gosh, for one person, touch feels very different. For one person, one kind of feeling feels very different. And so it changes things. Even there's research that looked at, people with neurotic mothers, people with neurotic mothers, misinterpret neutral facial expressions as negative.

• 33:23Mayim Bialik?

  Start again, say it again.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Okay. People with neurotic mothers.

• 33:29Mayim Bialik?

  And I am a neurotic mother, so I'm thinking of my children, unless my mother.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Also a high neurotic mother, yes, totally.

• 33:35Mayim Bialik?

  So go ahead.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  High neuroticism, by the way, neuroticism is a facet of personality. It is high emotional volatility. It's more reactive to negative responses.

• 33:44Mayim Bialik?

  I got three stars on your quiz from your website for neuroticism.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  You're, yes, you and me are both high neurotic. And by the way, there's some chemical reasons why we shouldn't be mad at high neurotics. Okay, so we can talk about that in a second.

• 33:54Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  So if you had a high neurotic mother, who is more emotionally reactive, and reacted more strongly to negative things, you, as an adult, misinterpret neutral faces as negative, which is why I used to leave parties, dinners, happy hours, and turn to my husband and say, I think they're mad at me. And my husband would be like, what, who? I'm like, everyone. I, I think everyone hates me. Because I just always think everyone hates me because I misinterpret neutral expressions as negative. This is what got me into the work of like, okay, I clearly have a, a, a cycle disruption. Here, I need to fix it.

• 34:34Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan thinks that he has a neutral face that I see as negative? And I know that his resting bitch face is sending signals. Sorry.

• 34:43Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, this explains every party my mom has ever gone to.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  It's also funny because you literally called Jonathan out earlier on having a negative face.

• 34:51Mayim Bialik?

  Yes. But it really is.

• 34:54Jonathan Cohen?

  Maybe my face is fine. No, I have gotten that note from other people besides her.

• 34:59Mayim Bialik?

  Um, I wonder also, I, I wonder if you can talk a little bit about, you know, I'm a, an actor person, right? And I, you know, started professionally acting when I was 11. And the reason that I became a, a professional actor was that I really enjoy emoting, you know? I really enjoy picking up on a vibe and elevating it. I used to love to make other kids laugh. Like, I really, I get a sort of rush from like making you laugh, or making you feel something. So one of the things that, you know, people assume is that I was this like hammy, you know, over expressive child who was like, notice me, you know? And that wasn't really my story. But for those of us who are actors,

• 35:41Mayim Bialik?

  we are, we're differentially tuned in to subtleties. And, you know, if you watch like a master craftsman actor, like for me, like a, like a Gary Oldman, or a Denzel Washington, you see that like nothing is missed on their face and what they understand. And a lot of times, I am accused of reading other people's emotions too strongly, or that I'm picking up on things, or that I'm making things up, that eventually I, they admit, like, oh, that's true. You did pick up on it. Can you talk a little bit, not just about from an actor perspective, certain people are more receptive, and likely it is because of interesting stuff from childhood. Can you talk a little bit about what that means?

• 36:26Mayim Bialik?

  And the challenges that that presents? Because I feel like it's a weird superpower.

• 36:30Speaker 02

  It is a weird superpower, and you're exactly right. Let's talk about the, what's happening underneath. Because you're exactly right, and we should hone it like a superpower. So neurotics. Most high neurotics carry a certain form of a special gene that carries serotonin. Serotonin does a lot of things, but in our bodies, it makes us feel calm, calms us down. So high neurotics produce less serotonin more slowly. So if something bad happens to them, they see a cue of social rejection, like an eye roll, or a, they are going to have a stronger reaction to that, and then they're not going to be able to calm down as quickly.

• 37:08Mayim Bialik?

  A hundred percent, you just described me, that's it.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too, me too. So, okay, so this happens to us, and it's happened to us from age three. Personality kind of consolidates in that two to four year range. And I have a two and a half year old and a six and a half year old, and I've literally watched this happen those years. Okay, so we feel this happening, starting at age three, where something bad happens to us, and we literally feel it more strongly than everyone else, or the other median neurotics in the room. So what's the reaction to that? Is our brain goes, hmm, I better be able to predict negative cues, because I don't want to feel this way again. And so we, our brain, the part of our brain in the fusiform face area, for my scientists, that reads faces, begins to activate much younger than everyone else is. Where we're looking at our mother's face,

• 37:56Speaker 02

  and our father's face, or our other mother's face, we're looking at our sis, siblings' face, we're looking at our friends' faces. And we're trying to predict, did I just say something wrong? Because I better know now. Is he mad at me? Is she sad? I better go help her. And so we're developing this because we're trying to prevent a misinterpretation or something negative later. But that can make us overfire. That can make us misinterpret neutral faces as negative. But mostly, it serves us. Like, mostly that has protected us, and we've become super empathetic. We often think of Plan B, C, and D, because we're trying to think so far ahead. So neuroticism is a superpower. And if you are, if you are neurotic, you have to understand that you have a hyperactive cue reader.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  So you have to tune it to make sure you're not getting the wrong signals.

• 38:43Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, it's so accurate. And again, I just, I can't help but think of people who were raised in homes that maybe don't feel safe, right? Where like, that tracking can be the difference between, am I going to get hit or not, right? Or do I need to run or not? And these are very, like, the brain is wired for this, right? Like, evolutionarily, we are wired to understand these things. And there's a variety of expression of all these genes, right? There's a whole, like, that's why people are different. And it's funny, because a lot of times we'll go somewhere, and I'll say like, ooh, I picked up on like that eyebrow, like the eyebrow movement. And Jonathan will be like, I really don't know what you're talking about. And I can't tell then if he's just out of tune,

• 39:26Mayim Bialik?

  and that's what I'm here for, is to alert everyone, right? Like, I'm going to like ring the bell. Or if I'm, you know, too tuned in. And also, how do you turn that off? I don't know how.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  I don't think we can. I, I don't think we can. Although I think that surrounding yourself with people that you just so inherently trust, that it can be dormant or off, is critical.

• 39:51Mayim Bialik?

  So basically, wrap myself in bubble wrap?

• 39:54Speaker 02

  No, wrap yourself with amazing friends.

• 39:56Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  Like, you know, I don't have many friends, but the ones I have are great. You know, because I need to know that my cue reader has to be completely off for them.

• 40:05Mayim Bialik?

  This book, Cues in particular, is so interesting, and it's so important, you know, even there's like a whole section on like how to write an email, you know, how to be effective in like all forms of communication. I appreciated that you like emojis. You think that those are good, because I use them all the time. And I was like, that's the way that I convey what's actually going on, right? Like, anyway. But, but I'm also wondering. There's all different kinds of people. Can you speak to people who, let's say, are awkward? Feel awkward? And maybe they're not looking to sort of become high achievers in the workplace. Maybe that's not their motivation.

• 40:45Mayim Bialik?

  What's it like for someone who's awkward to be able to find a sense of comfort around their cues? While still getting to feel like I'm myself?

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there is a really fine line between showcasing the best cues you can and being authentically yourself. Right? And like, that is a very hard line. And it was a existential struggle I had writing cues. I actually had a very different version of cues that I was like, you know, 20,000 words in. And I was like, I can't. It's too, it's too acting, actually. It's too much about performance. And I was like, if I want to write a book for actors, I can. Like, that's a different book. And that's about performing and being on. This is a different book, which is, how do I be my authentic self? And conquer the awkwardness where I don't feel like I'm faking it till I make it? Because I don't like that phrase.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  I don't believe in that phrase. So the way that I think about it is, everyone has their own flavor of charisma. So for example, as a recovering awkward person, I am very clear with that. Like, I don't pretend that I don't feel awkward. I don't pretend that I'm not socially anxious. I literally will be out with someone and be like, you know, I've had too much peopling by. Like, I think that honoring, like, when we're out of social battery is how we manage this, which is, okay. If we all have this specific flavor of charisma, what are your social strengths? That actually authentically feel good to you? For example, I love a one-to-one conversation or a two-to-one conversation. I love a small group. I love an intimate dinner party. I love learning. I love conferences.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  I love a good conference. I do not like happy hours. I'm allergic. I do not do networking events. I won't come. I will not even do like, holiday parties are my kryptonite. Another kryptonite. Like, I, there's no structure. I don't really know him. There's not enough food. There's never enough food. Like, I just, it's not my thing. And so I'm always like, I'm so busy, I can't come. Because I just know that is not where I can authentically be myself. My awkwardness is too high. So, one, what? What are the places or where are the places that you feel like I can actually be my best self? And for some people, by the way, it is a lot.

• 43:02Mayim Bialik?

  In my bed, in my bedroom.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Also me, also me. Oh, I feel like I'm charging in my bed. I feel like that's like my charging dock. Yes, in my bed. And I sometimes invite my little girls to settle in my bed. And that's all the peopling I want for the day. And that's all it is. So you find your places that are less draining. And that could be with friends. Then you find your people. So who are the people who bring out your best self? And this is really important. This is really important.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Ambivalent relationships drain us faster than toxic ones.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  And what I mean by this is, if you have someone you do not like, like, an in-law? Or a friend of a friend? You know, just theoretically. If you were to have that person, you know you don't like them. So you're not going to go sit with them at dinner. You're not going to ask them to go for a little walk. You're not going to sidle up to the, next to them and catch up. You know they're toxic. But the ambivalent people, the people who you look at their name in your calendar and you're like.

• 44:00Mayim Bialik?

  It's that push-pull.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Why am I dreading that? Or like, you leave and you're like, that wasn't that fun? Or, is she really happy for me? Or, was that nice? Those are actually so much more draining, because our brain is probably reading on a couple of judgment cues, social rejection cues. And then it drains energy, but we feel like we should, it should be good. And so I want you to think about, who do you love seeing? They bring out your best self. You can be a little awkward and they still love you for it. That's who I want you to spend more time with. What cues do you use with them? Those are your natural, that's your natural flavor. And who are the people who like, they make you doubt yourself?

• 44:43Speaker 02

  My, I know I'm with someone who is ambivalent when I leave and I'm socially overthinking. Like, I overthink everything that was said or everything. And I'm like, that story was kind of weird. And like, why did she say that? And that was kind of a weird tone of voice. That is someone who is probably sending me negative cues that I'm barely picking up on. And it's not good for me.

• 45:01Mayim Bialik?

  I have a question, because this is a really important distinction. And also, I'm just thinking of Jonathan, who's a very, very social person, when he wants to be. Very charismatic when he wants to be. But sometimes I would like him to attend things that are outside of his comfort zone. And I want to respect that. But also, how do you know if you're, if you're with someone or engaging with someone? Who just doesn't want to get outside of their comfort zone? Or can be pushed a little bit to say, this may not be your ideal. But how do we get there? How do we make it happen?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Radical honesty, just like you just said to me. I think we have to talk about cues like this. Like, oh, okay, I need you to go to this happy hour for me. I know that's not your favorite thing. What about it is making you feel uncomfortable? Can I send you with a wingman? Can we feed you beforehand? Do you want to show up early when it's a little quieter? Do you want to show up late so you could just be there for the last hour? Like, let's talk about how we can have you still feel, be yourself, but let's like, push your comfort zone a little bit. This is the conversation that parents are having with their Gen Z's. This is the conversation that we have to have with our kids when, yeah, we want them to be comfortable. Yes, we want them to feel safe. But also, we have to push them a little bit. We have to push the edge of their comfort zone. I have an introvert daughter. One of my daughters is introvert, we're introverted. The other one's two and a half, we'll see.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  And I have to work with her on honoring, it's very fine line. Honoring where, why, I don't want to do that. I feel uncomfortable. And we got to push, we got to push our comfort zone a little bit to get better at it. Very hard.

• 46:39Jonathan Cohen?

  What, what are tips for starting a conversation if you are an introvert? An adult introvert, not a child introvert?

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Okay, so, the biggest challenge that introverts face is, they have bad conversations that are draining, and so they don't want to do them. I like to teach introverts, most of my students are introverts or ambiverts. They're somewhere in between introvert and extrovert. I like to teach them, I want to teach you how to have amazing conversation, because then you're more likely to want to have them. Right? Like, if they're, if conversation is better, it's less anxiety provoking. Okay, so, first is, you have to be willing to break the social scripts. Awkward, bad, terrible small talk happens like this. How are you? Good, busy, busy but good. How about you? Yeah, so, what do you do? Where are you from? Okay, well, it was nice talking to you.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Like, I could write that conversation that happens. And our brain is like, brain dead when we have that conversation. There's a lack of dopamine. I would know we're doing a lot of chemicals today, but there's a lack of chemical of pleasure. An introvert, I want you to challenge yourself to go on a small talk diet. No more, how are you? No more, what do you do? And no more, where are you from? If you get rid of those three questions, you become instantly more interesting and your conversations look a better. What do you replace them with? Instead, I want you to ask, working on anything exciting these days? That question is one you can ask it to a new person or an old person. And it breaks the script very subtly. If I hear someone say, working on anything exciting these days?

• 48:16Speaker 02

  I actually have to, hmm, exciting, exciting, exciting. My brain does something. I'm activating a part of my prefrontal cortex that goes, excitement, excitement, excitement. What does that do? It makes me literally think of all the things in my life I like. So I am searching for a topic that I actually enjoy talking about, which is going to make me more positive. I'm going to send more positive cues. I'm also going to give more interesting answers. So if you ask that question, you're giving them a gift of dopamine, of, of excitement, of optimism. They're going to give you an answer that is far more interesting than what do you do? Or how are you? And then you're going to get to talk about something that you're excited about. So, working on anything exciting these days?

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Second, on Mondays and Tuesdays, I almost always ask, did you, did you do anything fun or new this past weekend? On Thursdays and Fridays, I always ask, have any fun or exciting plans this upcoming weekend?

• 49:09Mayim Bialik?

  What about Wednesday?

• 49:10Speaker 02

  I don't talk to anyone. No, I'm just joking. If you have to, if you have to talk to someone on Wednesday, you can say, what's good this week? What's good this week? Right? What's good this week? Or what's been good? What's good? Is such a different question than how are you? Right? Like, if I'm asked, what's good? First of all, it's not a one-word answer. I'm not going to say good back. Right? So that already breaks social script. But then I have to go, oh, what's good? You know, I went on this podcast today, it was fun. We had to talk about facial expressions. It allows me to answer with a little bit more depth. And let me tell you, as human beings right now, we need depth.

• 49:45Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so, I, I appreciate this. And I'm thinking back to the handful of dates that I went on through dating apps. And I can, I'm just going to be honest, I'm sure nobody's going to be surprised. Like, I don't do small talk well at all. Like, it's not a thing that I do. And so, I, I'm frequently accused, even with like, friends, of like, going like, too deep, too fast. And like, I don't know, to, for me, like, I don't need to like, go on social media and be like, am I neurodivergent? Like, Jonathan is pretty certain that like, I'm somewhere on some spectrum. But for me, I just like, I'm not kind of programmed for small talk.

• 50:27Mayim Bialik?

  And most of my relationships kind of have a certain level of depth. So if I were to go on a date with someone, right? Or try and meet a new friend? You know, like, sometimes my kids will be like, why are you asking that personal question? That's, you know, because like, I really want to get to know people. And, you know, where's the line between like, being honest and authentic and wanting to go deep with people? And also being accused of not knowing how to just socialize like a human?

• 50:53Speaker 02

  So I would honor that. I think, if that is how you are wired, that you feel connection with vulnerability and depth? Why would we try to change that?

• 51:04Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  Right? Like, I actually very strongly believe, again, radical honesty. It's so much better to create allergies on dates and in friendships. Like, I'm also allergic to small talk. And so, I would much rather ask you too personal of a question too quickly and have you be allergic to me? Bye. Than us pretend with small talk for three different, you know, meetings or coffees? And realize after three that it's too late. So, I would actually say, I think you should honor that with a caveat, with a caveat, which is. We all love depth, but there is something in our brains called the hierarchy of facts. I call it the hierarchy of facts, which is that when we are processing social information,

• 51:49Speaker 02

  there are neural mechanisms in our brain that like to work in order. We don't like to go really deep, really fast. It actually is hard for our brain to skip ahead to that depth if we haven't gotten the basic social information first. So what's probably happening is you are trying to skip some of that basic social interaction and the brains are like, fail, fail, fail. And so what I would say to you is I love depth, but I think it's good to ask some of those casual questions better first. Have any exciting plans this weekend?

• 52:23Mayim Bialik?

  I can tell by looking at them what their plans are this weekend.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  But you don't know, you don't know.

• 52:29Mayim Bialik?

  That's true, that's true.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. So like, you know, a couple of those basic questions first, like get in their brain, like check, check, check, check. I kind of know who this person is before I'm like, what's your greatest fear? Tell me your biggest desire in life, you know, because I love those questions too.

• 52:44Jonathan Cohen?

  It also primes our brain to think about positivity and we know we have negativity bias. A lot of the times it's how are you? Either we assume people don't want to know, so we give a nonsense answer and then we're withholding the things. Or then if it's someone else, you're like, here are all the horrible things, help me fix it versus what we, we had a challenge, Maim and I did this, I forget when, where on social media, we're like, what went right? Even in the face of really difficult times, what went right? Because we know that it biases us to start to think about what are the positive aspects of our life? And even in challenging times, then that can lead and create momentum towards seeing other positive options.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  That's it. And what I found is on my team, so I lead a global team, we're all over the world. And I noticed that in every weekly team meeting on Tuesdays, it all started kind of negative for like five wasted minutes. And I am a hyper efficient person, so like getting off agenda to me is like a little bit painful. And so we were starting every single meeting with this negative, like this back and forth negativity. Oh, the weather, the traffic, it's so busy, it's so, and I was just like, I cannot. And so every meeting I changed, I said, okay, we're going to start every meeting with tell me something good.

• 53:55Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, my God.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Come to the meeting.

• 53:56Mayim Bialik?

  I would quit, I would quit, I'm quitting.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  You have something good. You know what?

• 54:01Mayim Bialik?

  I know, but I want to talk about it.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  I would rather. And what's great about this is one, you're going to find your people. Like that is a culture where I'm like, we're going to find something good. I don't care if it's as small as like, oh, my coffee is so fricking good today. That's fine. It doesn't have to be something big, but it fundamentally changed the team. Because one, it made everyone be purposeful with their openers and we learned way more things about each other because they were actually, there was an opportunity to bring up something kind of personal random in their life that they chose. And then second, I had a team member who said, you know, Mondays is my do good day because I want to have something good to bring to the meeting. And so I always do good things on Monday.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  And I was like, what a gift that if we ask better questions, we can gift good behavior. So the questions you ask are gifts. If you ask purposeful questions that are breaking your social scripts, that are searching for optimism, that are setting people up to do good things, what, why there's no better way to interact than that.

• 55:06Jonathan Cohen?

  Tell us about color theory, what that does for people. I mostly wear gray because it's easy to match with. I wear gray, white and black, so I don't have to think about things. Am I setting myself up for failure?

• 55:19Mayim Bialik?

  Also, in your defense, Jonathan, Jonathan has the spookiest hazel eyes and he's got every color in his beard. So it's hard to pick a color to wear. That's why.

• 55:28Jonathan Cohen?

  Red doesn't look good, salmon, like there's, there are definitely colors that don't work for me. So how do, what should we be doing and what generally should we know about color as it relates to how it impacts other people?

• 55:39Speaker 02

  Okay, so for, you know, there's four different channels for cues. Body language, so gestures, facial expressions, posture. There's vocal, so how we say our words, our volume, our pace, our cadence, the words we use, verbal. And the last one is ornaments and color is a big part of that. Same with like what's in your Zoom background, the kinds of jewelry you wear.

• 56:00Jonathan Cohen?

  You have a fantastic Zoom background, by the way, very understated, but very well designed. I love the circle thing. I've been vibing on it the whole time.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Can you get, can you, do you know the metaphor? Do you know the reference? Can you get?

• 56:12Jonathan Cohen?

  I mean, I think, I don't know, but if I had to guess, I feel like there is some sort of almost infinity quality to the circle where you're also being highlighted, you're the focal point, you're being very, your importance is being increased by the color around you. And then the texture of the wall is adding sort of like a multi dimensional depth to what's happening. Very good.

• 56:39Mayim Bialik?

  Valerie is vibing on halo, like is there something about emanation?

• 56:44Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, there's like an angelic quality about her with this halo.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Jonathan, you said it better. So yes, yes. And is it giving Renaissance halo vibes?

• 56:55Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, interesting.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  It's from all my art history majors?

• 56:58Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 56:59Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, very good.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  Crazy fact about this, I did not come up with it. I asked AI, my name is Vanessa Van Edwards. Please go Google me. Please look at my brand, Science of People. What should my background look like? Please do a mockup and find the products for me. And this is what it made.

• 57:17Jonathan Cohen?

  Wow, it really is becoming our overlord if it can do that.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, but thank you for that, for that tangent, because it's so good. So color is difficult because as I was, I knew that color was a part of it, there isn't really a, a scientific basis for color and that red always means blank, green always means blank.

• 57:33Jonathan Cohen?

  A lot of cultural context.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  It's cultural context and universal human response to color. For example, when, when we are afraid or angry, we blush, we flush. So red, redness in the cheeks could be anger, it could be turned on. It's, it's a passionate color of both good and bad. So universally, red is seen as a passionate color. It's why I chose cues red, why I chose red for that book is I wanted people to feel an intensity from it. Blue, on the other hand.

• 58:04Jonathan Cohen?

  Calming.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Glue calming, exactly because universally across cultures, no matter where you are in the world, a blue sky, a clear blue sky means crops, right? It means like, we're going to have sun today. So we're like, ah, a clear blue sky, clear blue water, same, right? Like it's, it's clean water. So I picked blue for my first book because I was like trying to play it cool. So calming also they, it's like, it makes us feel sort of secure and safe. Then we get into some more difficulty on culture, but it's still really interesting. So like I'm wearing green today. Green is the color of spring, right? Like universally across cultures. And so it tends to give kind of a freshness, like a newness. Yellow is the color of the sun. It's a very high frequency color. We also can look at colors in terms of frequency. And so there's, it's a high frequency color, it's a color of a sun.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  And so it tends to be a positive color, a very upbeat color. And then white, black and gray are the colors that you mentioned. So white always reminds humans of cleanliness, right? Because of course, and so white is a very, it can be sterile, but it also could be pure, like either one. Black is the most formal color. It, it actually doesn't lack meaning, even though it's colorless. It's the most mysterious, the most formal, and it's the most basic in the sense of if you wear a black shirt, as you are today, I believe, black or gray, I'm going to focus more on your message because you're not sending me any signals with your shirt, right? It's the most formal. And so I don't actually mind like black or gray because I think it just saying, don't

• 59:35Speaker 02

  focus on this, focus on me, focus on my content.

• 59:38Jonathan Cohen?

  That was the intention.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. And so I don't think any of them are right or wrong, but I think it is important to know how they cue you. Like I know I feel a certain way in certain colors and that's really important. And then if you're thinking about branding or marketing, then I think you can think of colors in terms of what do they signal?

• 59:55Jonathan Cohen?

  Last question for you. How do we change how we see ourselves, especially if we've seen ourselves as awkward? We can embrace those qualities, but how do we start to see ourselves in a way that can signal there are more possibility, there's more connection? The, the limits that I previously had aren't going to define me.

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  I think that purposeful is the side door into changing or limiting beliefs. Meaning I was very awkward for a long time. I thought something was wrong with me. I thought I didn't deserve connection. It was very lonely. And I realized that if I was purposeful with the cues I sent, if I was clearly signaling likability, if I was clearly signaling trust, that maybe I could find the right kind of person. And so I think that if we think, okay, what do I want to send to others? Like what's the one word I want to send to people? Is it trust? Is it credible? Is it respect? Is it love? Is it empathy? If you can be purposeful with those cues, we can work from the outside in.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Once I started to clearly signal my liking on the outside, I started to get treated differently and people were receiving the likes and then I felt more likeable. And so I think that we can make, we can start our loops with the outside in. We can start with being really purposeful with our cues and that changes the way people treat us. Cues tell others how to treat you. So if you want to be treated a certain way, all you have to do is signal correctly.

• 1:01:25Mayim Bialik?

  Amazing. Mastering the secret language of charismatic communication, cues, small signals, incredible impact. Thank you so much for, for helping us, for helping us through some of these really sticky things in such a clear and engaging way. Really a pleasure to talk to you.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  It was so nice speaking to you. Thanks so much for having me.

• 1:01:47Mayim Bialik?

  Here's the thing that made that interview hard for me. I feel like she's constantly analyzing everything going on on my face. And I all of a sudden was like, are my shoulders up? Do I, am I charismatic? Am I engaged enough? Am I too engaged? Is she looking at Jonathan's resting face and saying, "Mime's right"?

• 1:02:05Jonathan Cohen?

  I thought my resting face was really good during this interview.

• 1:02:07Mayim Bialik?

  I don't know. It's a really, for me, the, the real kind of confusion is, like, I do think I am more perceptive than other people. Not than everybody, but I think that there are some people, I am one of them, who, who is very perceptive. And a lot of times, like, if someone seems annoyed with me, it's because they're annoyed with me. And I'm a person who annoys people, so I've had a lot of practice. And I don't know, but I don't know if that's just like, oh, I'm being too sensitive. And then I, I see people walking around the world who are just like, oh, if that person doesn't like me, fuck it. And I'm like, what's that like? What is that like? I've told this story before about a friend of mine, um, my friend Lisa, who's an actress.

• 1:02:51Mayim Bialik?

  And she, she once said something about, like, uh, an audition she went on. And it said, like, you know, "wear something memorable," or like, "wear something crazy." It was like, you know, kind of like a funny thing. And she was like, "I went in, like, silver go-go pants." So like, you know, fuck it. And I was like, I am so self-conscious, like, especially in auditioning, about like, what I wear. And what's, and I was like, what's that like? To be a person who's just like, "I'm gonna wear these silver fucking things." And like, who cares if anybody likes it? Wow, that would be so freeing for me. Like, I feel like I'm a prisoner of cues.

• 1:03:27Jonathan Cohen?

  I think you are a prisoner of cues. And I think a lot of people are prisoner of cues. This is like a Matrix moment. Would you have hit the vase if I didn't tell you that you were gonna hit the vase? And if people don't know that reference, uh, it's Ken O'Reeves who knocks over a vase while he's talking to the oracle lady. But she tells him that he's about to do it. She says something like, "Watch out for the vase." And then he hits the vase and he's like, "Which comes first? The fact that you may have done it, or the fact that you did it?"

• 1:03:59Jonathan Cohen?

  And this is the same with cues. Meaning, do we have the experience of the world because we start cueing the world to interact with us in a particular way? And it becomes a vicious, repeating cycle? Is the world objective? And I would say that there is, you know, Vanessa says there is at least 50% within our control that we are cueing our external environment. And I think it's probably more than that.

• 1:04:28Mayim Bialik?

  I think anyone who's spent any time in academia, and, and I, I think it happens in college, but anyone who's gone to graduate school, I think could attest to the fact that, like, you are routinely humiliated, you know, academically. You're, you're routinely placed in situations where you become hypersensitive to other people's perceptions of you. And, you know, I, I actually did, I experienced it as a, you know, pre-med student. Um, there's a tremendous amount of just like hostility. That's just the normal part of like, my training. And I think it's probably true in a lot of fields. I don't think it's necessarily just graduate school or even college. I think it happens in a lot of people's work. But I think if you've been in a situation, or, you know, if you've been under any sort

• 1:05:13Mayim Bialik?

  of scrutiny, I think that's what it is. If you've been in any situation where there has been excessive scrutiny, I think it does. It fine tunes you, you know, in ways to, to be more sensitive.

• 1:05:26Jonathan Cohen?

  Of course. And I'm not saying that if you cue openness while you're in a military academy, everything is gonna be fantastic. And of course, in highly competitive academic situations, highly competitive finance jobs, investment jobs, in medical training, like, there's gonna be a level of pressure and competitiveness that you're not gonna be able to, uh, remove yourself from. But if we're thinking about a generalized work environment where the stakes are somewhat even, and you're trying to be noticed, be heard, if you're talking about social situations that you wanna increase your level of connection, I think that's where this becomes the most practical.

• 1:06:08Jonathan Cohen?

  There was an aspect, uh, that I've heard her talk about before that we didn't get to, which was the power of liking other people to make yourself more likable. She said that the more, the people who are most likable and most, you know, have the most quote-unquote "friends," and we'll use that loosely because I don't mean that, you know, they're your best friends, but social acquaintances and feel most a part of things, are the people who like the most number of people. And if you say, "List me the number of people who you like, you think are great," they'll be like, walking down the hall of their school or their work, they'll be like, "Hey, Mime, how are you? Hey, Valerie, how's it going?" They have like, they call people by name, they acknowledge them.

• 1:06:51Mayim Bialik?

  You know who's someone who likes a lot of people? Scott Barry Kaufman.

• 1:06:55Jonathan Cohen?

  He loves, he loves people.

• 1:06:56Mayim Bialik?

  Scott Barry Kaufman, we had him as a guest. Highly recommend that episode. Um, he's a cognitive scientist at Columbia University. And Scott's the kind of guy, like, he just, he has positive things to say about people. Also, what's that like?

• 1:07:09Jonathan Cohen?

  He also, we went to his going-away party because he was moving. And what was really unique about it, and, and I thought very special to him, was that when everyone walked in, each person who walked in, he would sort of pitch their resume and what made them special. He was like, "Mime, meet this person, and they're an expert in this, and this is their background, and oh, you would love to talk to them." And then he would like, set you up for like, a kickoff of what you might have in common to like, remove the awkwardness of small talk. And he just, he had so much joy about it.

• 1:07:42Mayim Bialik?

  And I think this is the thing also, because it takes all kinds of people, you know? I don't want to live in a society where every single human is interacting at the Scott Barry Kaufman level. Meaning, it's too much. Like, it's too much, I'm picturing a hallway and everybody would be like, it's like,

• 1:07:59Jonathan Cohen?

  "Hey, hey, how are you? How are you doing?"

• 1:08:01Mayim Bialik?

  It would be like an episode of Happy Days. Like, I don't want it. It's too much, right? But it takes some, some variability here. And, you know, I'm even thinking about, like, my own kids, you know? And I, I have two who are very, very similar, but very different. And, you know, my older one, like, people were always like, "He's such a charismatic kid. He can talk to anyone." Like, he loves grownups.

• 1:08:22Jonathan Cohen?

  He can. He really can.

• 1:08:24Mayim Bialik?

  Right. But like, even when he was like, six years old, the, um, he went to camp, like, a family camp thing. And, you know, Mike let him out of, my ex let him out of his sight for like, a minute. And like, at, at six, he was like, running the kitchen assembly line for the best, most efficient way for them to wash dishes. He was like, like a team leader at like, six or something. And people were like, "What is this kid?" And he's just like, that was him. And then my younger one, much more like, hanging back, like, if given a task, wants to be part of, but like, very, very different. And if he could choose, I don't think he would want people looking him in the eye and being like, "How you doing?" Like, he doesn't want that. But what's interesting is, he has learned certain social cues that are important and significant.

• 1:09:09Mayim Bialik?

  And sometimes I'll pick him up at school, and I'll ask about his day, or like, "What'd you do?" Or, "How was your test?", whatever. And then it'll be quiet, or he'll be on his phone, and then all of a sudden, he'll be like, "And how was your day?" It's like, "Oh, um, thank you for asking." Like, and I, I don't go into a soliloquy, but like, I give a little bit of feedback of like, "I did a podcast," or "this was this." And it's just like, those are the things that make social interactions happen. But I wouldn't expect him to initially think of that when he gets in the car. Whereas my, you know, my older one would get in the car and be like, "How was your day? Here's what happened to me. Let's talk about it."

• 1:09:44Jonathan Cohen?

  I think about both of our sons, and they do send off a cue that they don't wanna interact.

• 1:09:52Mayim Bialik?

  You're thinking about your son and my younger. They're very similar, I think, in their vibe.

• 1:09:56Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm thinking about a time, we were out with my son, and a group of his friends walked by, and they were acknowledging him, "Hey, what's up?" And he kind of looked down. Now, it could have been embarrassment that he was out with us.

• 1:10:09Mayim Bialik?

  That's exactly what it was.

• 1:10:10Jonathan Cohen?

  I've seen him in other scenarios, and he like, really kind of plays it back. And I don't think it's a too cool-for-school attitude. I think he has a level of being somewhat of an introvert, a little bit shy. He open, and he's been like this ever since he was young. If there's a topic or a task to do, and, and this goes back to what Vanessa was saying, is when there's structure, if she, she can't go to a networking event, but she can go to smaller groups.

• 1:10:35Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, let's talk about that.

• 1:10:37Jonathan Cohen?

  But I, I remember with him, it was the, kind of the same. If it was like, "I'm gonna work on this construction project." Or, "This adult has a dog. I'll talk to them about the dog." And then he's gonna tuck this adult's ear off. But the same is kind of true now in his social environment. It's like, he doesn't really cue, "I'm open, I'm available." And I'm wondering if that would change how secure he felt in those group environments? Would he feel less introverted if his cueing was different because it would open him up a little bit more?

• 1:11:09Mayim Bialik?

  I'm actually curious to talk a little bit about the categories of places Vanessa's comfortable. And I can't talk about it with her, so, but I'm gonna talk about it without her. So she, she indicated a couple interesting things. So I totally dig it. Like, I get it. Like, holiday parties can be really hard. When I was younger, I was totally fine with them. Also, when I used to drink, everything was fine. Like, that's, I'm just being honest. For those of us who don't drink anymore, it's like, many things that used to be easy are apparently very hard. So...

• 1:11:37Jonathan Cohen?

  We went to one holiday party, a comedian people would know. How long did we stay at that holiday party? And how much prep did you warn me? You're like, "Jonathan, we may only last 10 minutes at this holiday party."

• 1:11:49Mayim Bialik?

  I'm gonna describe what it felt like in my body. Picture two gears that have to connect. Imagine if those gears were rusty, had no lubricant, and they were trying to like, start an engine? That's what it felt like in my body at that party. And this was with people I liked.

• 1:12:06Jonathan Cohen?

  And I was like trying to walk you, it's like we were in a hostage situation. I was like, it's gonna be okay. We're sitting down now.

• 1:12:13Mayim Bialik?

  Can't do it.

• 1:12:14Jonathan Cohen?

  We're, we're just gonna, it's gonna be alright. There are other people, we're gonna talk. It's gonna be, and I'm not the most like extroverted person and this, these unstructured environments are not my thing either. But hold on, this is good. We, we left the living room of this party and we ended up going outside to this like outdoor area. I had a fireplace. There were some, where there was a couch that we were sitting on. Your son was there. There were a handful of other people. A meditation teacher came, some other writers came and we actually started having a great conversation. There was jokes, you were laughing inside, you were breaking, but outside it looked like you were having a good time. And I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, great, we're over the hump.

• 1:12:58Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 1:12:59Jonathan Cohen?

  This is going well. Everyone's enjoying themselves. Okay, let's now go inside and if we had fun there, maybe we could do it again.

• 1:13:09Mayim Bialik?

  That's where you're wrong. Hold on. This is fallacy number one. If we had fun outside, let's take it inside. Nope.

• 1:13:17Jonathan Cohen?

  It was a little cold outside, so maybe we could warm up. And I thought we would go inside, post up again, and my external cueing would say, we are open to conversation. Interesting people, come over. Maybe I would dip my shoulder a little bit, offer some glances. And we ended up on the couch and someone really interesting came over. They were a director. We had actually, I didn't recognize them from their work, but you told me who they were later. We were talking to them about Ojai. And literally inside, I just think those gears started mashing in a way that they could no longer pass one another. And it was, became clear that we weren't gonna set up again for, for round two. No fun would be had.

• 1:14:00Mayim Bialik?

  And then what happened is the entire party gathered round the piano and started singing Christmas carols.

• 1:14:06Jonathan Cohen?

  And dancing, and dancing.

• 1:14:07Mayim Bialik?

  And dancing. And I was like, this feels like, everything feels like an episode of Black Mirror to me. Like something bad is gonna happen now while they're singing. I know one Christmas carol and I love it. It's "God rest ye merry gentlemen." I don't know why I love that one. They weren't singing that one and they weren't going to. They were singing a bunch of other shit. I don't know. And I was like, I don't belong for reals. And this piano just confirmed it.

• 1:14:32Jonathan Cohen?

  There are some things in this story. Number one, when there's too much extraversion and joy, you feel that something terrible is gonna happen.

• 1:14:43Mayim Bialik?

  No, it's, I feel left out. I feel left out. I feel, I feel left out even when I'm part of, which is just a feature of me.

• 1:14:53Jonathan Cohen?

  I like it better in my head when you think that there's something horrible gonna happen from people singing and dancing. Alright, let's move on from the Christmas story.

• 1:15:02Mayim Bialik?

  So, there's certain kind of events that Vanessa mentioned she can go to. And what she said is she can do one-on-one, she can do two-on-one, she can do, uh, I think she said, happy hours are not her thing. But you know what she added? And we kinda, we kinda glazed over it. Conventions. She's like, I love a convention. And I'm thinking-

• 1:15:26Jonathan Cohen?

  Cause there's a structure.

• 1:15:27Mayim Bialik?

  Right. And I'm thinking, that's interesting because I thought that happy hour might feel like it's too many people. No, but if she goes to a convent, she said she doesn't like networking, right?

• 1:15:37Jonathan Cohen?

  Cause networking is free form and you gotta build your own connections there.

• 1:15:41Mayim Bialik?

  So it's not necessarily about the number of people, right?

• 1:15:45Jonathan Cohen?

  No.

• 1:15:45Mayim Bialik?

  Like, some people may think, oh, I can only be around a certain number of people or I'm an introvert. I only like a few people. But if given a task, right? Or if given some structure, some larger events can be comfortable for people. It's very interesting that she said that.

• 1:16:01Jonathan Cohen?

  I actually think you have a better time in non-structured environments because you tend to shine. You actually hold court, you tell good stories.

• 1:16:12Mayim Bialik?

  Look, here's the thing. I'm a performer. I'm comfortable on a stage. But we've all been at that party where you've seen that like actor or influencer who's just like, it's all about me. Like, that's not my interest. But I am comfortable telling stories. But what I'm not great with is like, the, like the feedback and the social interaction part of it. That's why I'm a performer. Put me on a stage. This is my Blues Traveler quote I love to give. If you wanna hide, find a stage.

• 1:16:42Jonathan Cohen?

  Yes, and, I'm calling a little BS on that because you don't do it in a way that I've seen performers do where they suck the energy out of the room and they say, look at me, look at me, look at me. You sit back more-

• 1:16:56Mayim Bialik?

  I just want people to be happy and tell them a good story.

• 1:16:59Jonathan Cohen?

  You tell them a good story. So, the backyard event that you go to, we won't say the name, but it's a, a producer who hosts a bunch of writers and other people. You go to that event.

• 1:17:10Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Jonathan Cohen?

  You go to that gathering on, it used to be on a weekly basis.

• 1:17:14Mayim Bialik?

  We started that during COVID. Yeah, it's a group of writers and, yeah.

• 1:17:18Jonathan Cohen?

  Film people and, and interesting characters.

• 1:17:21Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:22Jonathan Cohen?

  And you'll go there and that is a, you know, can be up to 10 people. And there you don't have that level of-

• 1:17:28Mayim Bialik?

  I feel, look, I feel uncomfortable, you know, in every situation. I'll find a way to feel uncomfortable. I'm often the only female there. I'm often the, the younger person by, you know, 25 years. So it's definitely a, a different crowd. But I feel most authentically, like that's one of the places where I feel most authentically myself, my sense of humor, my sense of intelligence. I can make references to like Machiavelli and no one's like, who? What? You know, like I can have an intellectual level of conversation that's comfortable. And I don't mean to say I always need to talk about intellectual things, but if I'm talking about current events and if I'm talking about things going on-

• 1:18:06Jonathan Cohen?

  Or the Knicks. You could talk about the Knicks.

• 1:18:08Mayim Bialik?

  I love sports. And I like watching sports. I like being at events where people are watching sports. What I don't like is being at events where people are watching sports and, and then people are talking. If you're not talking about the sport, I don't want you at my sport party. So, a lot of times people will be like, oh, it's a bunch of couples and let's get together. And yes, this is something that I generally see along gender lines. I usually sit with the guys and watch the game and the lady people talk about lady things. Sometimes a lady person, or my mother, God bless her, she used to come over while my dad and I were watching basketball. And she'd be like, why is he wearing those shoes? What's he doing? Why, when is it gonna be over? How long is this

• 1:18:51Mayim Bialik?

  part? You know? And like, I can't fricking handle it. I just wanna watch the game. I wanna talk all about the game. Like, I'm on several text threads during like playoff season. Like, we talk all about the things. I wanna like trash talk. I wanna like go over this. I do sometimes make stupid comments. I'm curious about tattoos, cause there's so many of them now to look at. But generally speaking, that's a great example. I love to watch sports, but that's what I wanna do. I don't wanna go over to the buffet and talk about your seven-layer bean dip. I wanna watch the game and I'd like the pizza in front of me.

• 1:19:23Jonathan Cohen?

  So you don't need deep conversation there, but there's a structure which is, which is interesting. The other thing we didn't get to talk about, and I've heard her speak about before, is the importance of knowing what direction someone's toes are pointing in a room.

• 1:19:40Mayim Bialik?

  She, she has a thing in here about the Nixon and Kennedy debate. And I was like, I haven't thought about that in a minute. And, you know, Nixon was sitting like a guilty person with a pole up his ass. And Kennedy was sitting with his legs crossed, like, I'm the first Catholic president. I'm so cool, you know? And I hadn't really thought about that. And in an age of social media where there's so much about presentation, I think this stuff kind of comes up more and more, but makes me very self-conscious. Like, I normally stand like a cave person.

• 1:20:12Jonathan Cohen?

  What she was describing is that if you go into a room and there's multiple people in the room, if you look at the pattern of where the majority of toes are pointing, that will signify who is the most important person in the room. And if someone moves and the other person usually is tracking that person, it could indicate that they're the most important person and that person who is tracking them moving in relation to that person wants their approval. But it could also mean that they have a crush on that person. And they're trying to stay oriented to them.

• 1:20:50Mayim Bialik?

  In the simulation that we're living in, you just described an ant farm. Like, we're just an ant farm. And some like alien overlord must be like, oh, they're following this one? Oh, it must mean something. Look at all those pheromones. What happens if we do this? Let's drop a confident hot girl in the middle of the room and see what happens.

• 1:21:10Jonathan Cohen?

  I actually like the notion that we are just an ant farm because it makes it more understandable that there's a cause and effect to seemingly situations that don't have a rhyme or reason.

• 1:21:25Mayim Bialik?

  Well, look, and the thing is, there's, there's so much that I love about what Vanessa does and the incredible research they do. But also, there's an aspect of kind of like human variability and attractiveness. Olivia and I were talking before about how she recommends if you're a heterosexual male who'd like to get a date, don't pose with a cat in your dating profile. For someone like me, if I were looking at dating profiles and I accurately wanted to know who someone was, I'd be like, I want a guy with a cat. Like, that makes total sense to me. But for, for a lot of women, right, who are concerned about like, oh, is that not dateable? Is that not masculine enough? Like, I get it. But there's always

• 1:22:07Mayim Bialik?

  gonna be ladies who are like, I want a dude with a cat. And there's always a dude with a cat for that lady. So I was thinking about also like, the first time I saw you and like, what, what I conjured up when I saw the way you held yourself or the way you stood or whatever it is. There's always gonna be variability. Or, you know, I've been told a lot that like, oh, I'm, I'm charismatic. People are like attracted to the energy I'm giving off. I don't really know what that means. But it's not true for everyone. Cause there's been plenty of people that I'm like, why won't you love me? Like, millions of people love me. Why not you?

• 1:22:45Jonathan Cohen?

  This is variability issue. It's very tricky.

• 1:22:47Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:48Jonathan Cohen?

  I like the idea that we process fairly accurately within microseconds of seeing someone's face. Because it speaks to our larger intuition. I used to, you know, one of my favorite activities when I had single female friends and they were on dating apps, they would show me who they were potentially interested in. And I would take one look at their face and I'd be like, oh, that's not a good person. This is a good person. And I felt like my accuracy was fairly high. And I do think that we get biased and we can convince ourselves not to trust that instinct. But that fundamentally, we can quickly evaluate

• 1:23:33Jonathan Cohen?

  someone, a situation and see, are they trustworthy? Is there something here? Or is it going to be totally a waste of time? Or take us off track?

• 1:23:42Mayim Bialik?

  The thing that really blew my mind was the notion that people are fairly accurate. Like, I think she said 76%. People are fairly accurate at guessing what type of person someone is based on a photo of them. And I think about this a lot when I think about the way we dress. And, you know, like, the different personas we try on when we're teenagers. Like, I don't know if anybody in the room can relate. Like, I went through a goth phase, right? I also like went through like a heavy like punk phase. Like, what does it look like to dress like that? I also like always really resonated with like peasant-y fabrics. And I was like, oh, what if I only wear things that were made in India that I, you know, buy at the thrift store?

• 1:24:26Mayim Bialik?

  And like, and I think about, like, what are you trying to give off? Like, what did it mean when I first dyed my hair? Right? When I was in college? And people thought it was insane. What did it mean that I got my eyebrow pierced? Right? Or that I have all these piercings in my ears? Like, what am I trying to convey to people? And I just think it's very interesting, especially in an age when there's so much attention to the presence that you present with. I sometimes wonder, like, are we just what we want other people to think we are? Right? Like, if I want to be like that, like, bad girl who's like, I've got a safety pin in my ear, which I used to wear like safety pins in my ears. Like, what am I trying to tell you? Right? Am I telling you, stay away? Am I telling you, like, I'm only interested in people who get this?

• 1:25:10Mayim Bialik?

  Right? And you could say that for really any aspect of, in particular, counterculture. One of the things that my, both of my sons would say when they finally went to high school after being homeschooled their whole life, like, so many people just dress the same. Like, everybody wants to look like everybody else, but then like you can't really tell who people are, right? And sometimes it takes us getting a little bit older, but there's always like that one girl and like two guys who are like, I'm going to show you exactly who I am at 15. You know what I mean? And it's usually like, it's something bold. It's something interesting. And for a lot of young people, it's about, this is my gender preference. This is my sexual preference, right? Like, this is who I am. But I just think it's so interesting to think of like those cues, what they mean on a larger level.

• 1:25:56Mayim Bialik?

  Really fascinating. One of the other things that I really got from Vanessa and from the book Cues, again, I'm going to hold it up, is that there are ways to learn better what your preferences are. There are ways to better understand what you're putting out there and what you want to receive. And I really, really enjoyed this book. And there's all these fun tips throughout and little exercises you can do. So, highly recommend you check out Cues, Small Signals, Incredible Impact. And that's it. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.