#339: Samin Nosrat — Master Creative, Master Teacher

Samin Nosrat (@ciaosamin https://twitter.com/ciaosamin/) is a writer, chef, and teacher who is masterful at turning complexity into simplicity. Her first book, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat: Mastering the Elements of Good Cooking http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1476753830/offsitoftimfe-20, is a New York Times bestseller, was a James Beard Award-winner for Best General Cookbook https://www.jamesbeard.org/blog/the-years-best-cookbooks, was named as Cookbook of the Year https://www.iacp.com/awards/cookbook/winners/ by the International Association of Culinary Professionals, and is soon to be a Netflix original documentary series produced by Jigsaw Productions https://www.netflix.com/title/80198288. Samin has been called "The next Julia Child" by NPR's "All Things Considered," and she has been cooking professionally since 2000. This episode is about much more than cooking. It's about the creative process, creative highs and lows (and how to push through those lows), rejection, vulnerability, and much more. If you liked the Brandon Stanton episode https://tim.blog/2018/06/18/brandon-stanton-humans-of-new-york/, you're going to love this one. Please enjoy! This podcast is brought to you by Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim. I get asked all the time, "If you could only use one supplement, what would it be?" My answer is, inevitably, Athletic Greens https://www.athleticgreens.com/tim. It is my all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body and did not get paid to do so. As a listener of The Tim Ferriss Show, you will receive a one-off supply of 20 free Athletic Greens Travel Packs, valued at $99.95. To order yours, visit AthleticGreens.com/Tim http://athleticgreens.com/tim. 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• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Tim Ferriss?

  Now would be an inappropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:24Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:06Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:16Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:01Tim Ferriss?

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• 2:43Tim Ferriss?

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• 3:05Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it's my job to deconstruct world-class performers, people who are the best at what they do, to tease out their habits, routines, life lessons, favorite books, favorite cooking pans, and so on, that you can use. And that last little bit was some heavy foreshadowing for this episode. My guest today is Samin Nosrat. You can find her @ChaoSamin, C-I-A-O, @ChaoSamin on Instagram and Twitter, Facebook, forward slash Samin dot Nosrat. And the website is saltfatacidheat.com, which we'll be getting into. And Samin is amazing. She is a writer, a chef, and a teacher, in my mind, first and foremost.

• 3:50Tim Ferriss?

  Absolutely masterful teacher, and excellent at turning complexity into simplicity. Her New York Times bestselling first book, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, received the James Beard Award, that's like the Oscars, Best Picture for Best General Cookbook, and was named Cookbook of the Year by the International Association of Culinary Professionals. But this episode is about so much more than just cooking. It is about the creative process. It is about creative highs, creative lows, pushing through, rejection, you name it.

• 4:20Tim Ferriss?

  It's very, very vulnerable. If you liked the Brandon Stanton episode, you are going to love this episode. And it covers some heavy stuff, some really important stuff. But back to the bio. Samin has been called, quote, "the next Julia Child," end quote, by NPR's All Things Considered. And she has been cooking professionally since 2000, when she first stumbled into the kitchen at [blank, blank, blank], we're going to cover what that [blank, blank, blank] is, an iconic restaurant that no doubt you've heard of. And what an amazing genesis story it is. An eat columnist for the New York Times Magazine. Samin lives, cooks, reads, and gardens in Berkeley, California. Her latest project is absolutely gorgeous.

• 5:02Tim Ferriss?

  It is a Netflix original documentary series that may sound familiar, Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat, same title as the book, produced by Jigsaw Productions. And I heavily, heavily recommend that you check it out. It is absolutely gorgeous. Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat on Netflix. So, without further ado, please enjoy this very wide-ranging, very vulnerable, and to my mind, very important, conversation with Samin Nosrat.

• 5:33Tim Ferriss?

  Samin, welcome to the show.

• 5:34Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me, Tim.

• 5:36Tim Ferriss?

  And I, I know that people are going to say, "Wait a second, he just mispronounced her name." And I want them to know that I double and triple-checked it with you beforehand. A lot of people say Samin because that would be English-friendly, but the correct pronunciation of your full name is what?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  It's Samin, yeah. You're going, you're, you've like graduated past the appropriate American pronunciation into, you're going for true Persian right now, so it's good.

• 6:03Tim Ferriss?

  Going for Farsi, you know? I will get there, I will get there. And I struggled with deciding where to begin topically this conversation, but one thing really jumped out at me, and I wanted to begin there, since I like to follow my interests, and that is... The Manifestation Journal. Can you tell me about your manifestation journal?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  I'm so happy you're asking about this. Um, so I don't know where the idea for my manifestation journal came from. I think it may have been like a self-help blog in approximately 2008. But um, it's just a notebook that I bought in like art supply store. It's just a sketchbook. And I just decided to start writing down the things that I envisioned for my life. Whether they were really big and I would ever be like too embarrassed to articulate them to anyone, or whether they were really little. And I tried, I sort of knew initially that I should be as specific as possible. And what's pretty bananas is sometimes I'll misplace the

• 7:10Speaker 02

  journal, like it'll slide under my bed and I'll forget about it for, I don't know, six months or something. And then I'll pull it out. I think at one point I lost it for about two years. And I'll pull it out and I'll look and I'll be like, oh, my gosh, like, word for word, so many of these things have happened, you know, and I think, um, and there were also many things in there that have not come true yet, or like, maybe I was misguided and I changed and, and goals shifted. But it is really sort of mind blowing to go back and look at how specific goals sort of come to life when you plant a seed, you know, that you achieve things when you plant a seed and you're really clear about it. And I've always known that and I've always really adhered to that. And so it's just one little practice

• 7:55Speaker 02

  that I have. At this point, I like to look at it around my birthday and around the new year. Those are sort of the two times of year that I pretty diligently will check in and write into it. But it's not, you know, it's not a big thing that I do all the time, but it is really incredible, especially as I've started to sort of achieve bigger goals in my career, to go back and look at it and say, wow, like, I wanted always to write for this publication and now I am, or I really specifically wanted, you know, a book deal with a certain amount of money and I achieved it. And, you know, and it's, yeah.

• 8:29Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I've, I've so many follow-up questions because I'm a nerd when it comes to journaling and notebooks. And it's something that that comes up a fair amount in this podcast. From a profile in the California Sunday Magazine, uh, this was discussed in a few lines. And when the The interviewer in this case flipped through the notebook, which I'm jealous of immediately. It gave a few examples. Next, in quote, "Next to small candid instructions to herself." Example, "Chin hairs under control!" Exclamation point. "And general life notions." In parentheses, "Bay leaf pinata!" Exclamation point. I'm not sure what that is, but that's okay. We'll come back to that. "There were goals that I found striking in their precision. Go to Italy. Write and publish at least one story in print.

• 9:14Tim Ferriss?

  Start writing her first book. Those were dated 2008 and all have come true." So my question is, when you were... Do you still use the journal? If so, generally speaking, say, from 2008 forward, how frequently do you write in the journal? And then what does the review process look like?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  I do still use it. I probably write in it two or three times a year. And I also probably look at it two or three times a year. And it's a treat to look at it. Now it's become this amazing treat where I get to go back and see, did something happen? You know, did I achieve something? Or did some thought or notion that I had had at some time come true?

• 10:05Speaker 02

  And it really is... And often it's a nice thing to sort of help me refocus where I'm headed. I feel like with my career, in a lot of ways, it's had a really... What's the word? I was gonna say like amorphous shape. There has not been one super clear goal or one super clear path that I can model my career on. There aren't a lot of other writer, chef, teacher... You know, often people are just write about food, or just cook, or just teach. And so I have done all those things and more, and I've always just followed my gut. And that can be really overwhelming because I get really distracted quite easily by shiny objects.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  You know, or like a lot of money, or the opportunity to work with somebody, or make a decision because of... I'm worried what will happen if I say no. And so I feel like the clearer I am about what I do want to do, the more easily I can say no, or just make better decisions about where I'm headed. So even just a couple times a year, having like a little bit of quiet time. And usually I'll pick up the thing a couple days before my birthday. And start thinking about like what I've done in the past year, where what I where, you know, good choices I've made, bad choices I've made. And um, yeah, I, I, and it sort of is a nice sort of personal check in. I don't know, there's a million names for

• 11:31Speaker 02

  these things. I don't know why I wrote manifestation journal, but it really is that like, you know, it's also just like a journal. I don't, yeah.

• 11:40Tim Ferriss?

  And when you look at, when you look at a page, is it dates? And then under that, just a series of bullets for things that you hope to achieve?

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Basically, I'm, yeah, I mean, if I were a little more organized, there would probably be like some sort of method to the math. But it's, you know, it started out as bullets. And the other day I was telling somebody, I was reading some of the ones from the very first page for someone. And then I was saying how, oh, there's all these things like, I don't know, um, publish four books, you know, popular, well reviewed books that I'm proud of by good, well known publishing houses. And then in at the very bottom in tiny, tiny writing, like so small, I could barely admit it to myself. And I certainly can't believe I'm about to tell you. But I wrote in the tiniest writing, MacArthur Genius Grant, like,

• 12:35Speaker 02

  like, it's so embarrassing. Do you know what I mean? Like, so like, I can't believe it's just so embarrassing. And then, yeah, I wrote, I had a page for long term goals. I had a page for what I hoped to do that year. Ideas. Oh, there's the bay leaf pinata, which was I wanted to make a pinata that was covered instead of with crepe paper with bay leaves. So when you hit it with a baseball bat, it smells really good. And we did it. We did it. My 30th birthday.

• 13:01Tim Ferriss?

  If you're looking at this journal, picking it up three times a year, let's say two or three times a year.

• 13:08Tim Ferriss?

  Is the significance that you are planting a seed in your subconscious more because it sounds like you're not going back and sort of reviewing it in some type of spreadsheet fashion, looking at the progress towards the end goal in each of these cases, you're visiting it two or three times a year. Is the importance then that you're planting a seed in your subconscious that will somehow very subtly direct your choices in a different fashion? I know that a number of people have been on this podcast, my friend Josh Waitzkin, who's the basis for Searching for Bobby Fischer, Reid Hoffman, do quite a bit of intention setting or journaling, either right before bed or first thing upon waking up, which has that flavor to it. But

• 13:53Tim Ferriss?

  why do you think this has had an impact in your life, if it has had an impact?

• 13:59Speaker 02

  I definitely think this lines up with the idea of planting a seed in my subconscious and also helping me like remain accountable to myself. And then I also have all manner of other intention setting and goal making and list making. Just at my office, above my desk, I have lists of, you know, actually, it's funny, I had a list of interviews I would like to do and yours was on the list. And so I looked at that list. I looked at that list, you know, every day I went to work and sat at my computer, there's a list right next to that of maybe projects I would like to do, right? And then right next to that is a list of collaborators I would like to have, you know, and there's people on there like wildly, I sort of just stopped being embarrassed at some point about having what

• 14:44Speaker 02

  seemed wildly unachievable dreams. Or, you know, I put Issa Rae and Ava DuVernay on that list. Do I know them? Is there any possibility that, you know, I don't know, like, what do I know? I just put them on there because they're people I would like to maybe work with, whose work I respect. And so there is, I just had to stop being afraid that someone would come into my office and see that and judge me, you know?

• 15:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, of course.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  And so for a while, when I first started writing the book, I wrote, visualize Oprah's book club. And I had that on a Post-it note above my desk for years. And then Oprah's book club ended. But, and also, I don't think she puts cookbooks on. But you know, I've never dare, I wouldn't say I've ever been embarrassed to dream big. And I think the better I have gotten at articulating my dreams in words. And then, um, really just being mindful of them and whether it means coming back to them once or twice a year, or looking at them every day, I do feel like it makes a difference and it helps me stay on track. And then, if I look at that list and after a while,

• 15:50Speaker 02

  some goal, or some name, or some idea doesn't feel right anymore, I can cross it off, you know? I don't know, it's just, um, it's a nice thing, especially when I'm in the, you know, in the sort of rock bottom part of the creative process, like where you're just sort of doing the dra- the boring stuff, you're doing the accounting, you're doing the like terrible writing that's not coming out easily. It's just nice to look up and be like, oh yes, I am a creative person who has big ideas and, you know, sometimes makes things happen. So, I don't know, it's not, it's like a little bit of cheerleading for myself, I guess.

• 16:31Tim Ferriss?

  This is really important, so I want to explore it for a moment, this, and this is gonna be very non-chronological, we're gonna bounce all over the place. I do have questions about San Diego, but we're gonna come to that. First, since you said the rock bottom of the creative process, so when you are in the rock bottom of the creative process, and almost anyone, except for a few mutants here or there, who just seem to always operate in the proper gear, but for most people, with any large or unfamiliar creative project, there's going to be maybe one rock bottom, maybe many different rock

• 17:12Tim Ferriss?

  bottom, difficult moments, do you use anything, we're talking about, in some ways, future tense, the things you want to do, when you are in that rock bottom place, do you use anything from the past, like things you've achieved, or milestones you've accomplished, or anything from the present tense to also help buoy your spirits? Or is it mostly the keeping your eye on the ball that is ahead of you, that future tense that helps you?

• 17:43Speaker 02

  I think I wish that, I think I need some more therapy and meditation to get to be the kind of person who can feel good about my past accomplishments and let them buoy me to, um, to buoy me forward. I think I sort of achieve the thing and then I forget about it. Like, it's even part hard for me when I receive praise. I get so many emails all the time, which are so meaningful in a way. These are maybe the most meaningful kind of feedback that I get is from people who are like, "I read your book, and now I cook vegetables for my kids and they eat them, you know, and it tastes good." And that kind of stuff is really, I think, the most powerful for me, but still, there's a way where I'm like, "Oh, somebody else did that." And it's really hard for me to accept praise

• 18:28Speaker 02

  or really fully feel in my body pride and happiness at having achieved these, like, goals I have listed on papers all over the place. So, I, I do a lot of work in therapy and meditation and just like, you know, trying to be better about my body and connecting with my body and feeling that stuff. So, here up until now, I have not historically used those things to get me through the creative lows. I often, um, once, I, I do have to sort of keep my eye on the prize. I think in therapy and in just my own life,

• 19:07Speaker 02

  I have had to do a lot of work in reframing what success means and what it looks like, so that as I work toward quote unquote "success," um, I'm working towards something that will be positive for me rather than, than also beat me down. Like, I'm a crazy perfectionist child of immigrants who, you know, like, was raised in a family where nothing was ever good enough, nothing I did was ever, like, perfect, you know, it was just, I, I'm a perfectionist from childhood, and then I entered a profession and in particular, like, began working in an institution which is run by, like, a world-class perfectionist. And so, and so, nothing that any of us ever did was good enough, which is good because it keeps us pushing all

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Toward doing better, but I haven't historically had a lot of like positive feedback and really allowed myself to to feel that. So I'm doing a lot of my own work to sort of be proud at the things that I do, whether they're perfect, quote unquote, or just good enough or whatever. And um, you know, I had a lot of fear before my book was released that uh because it was the biggest project that I had ever worked on. It was a lot, the longest dream that I had ever worked toward. Uh, I had put everything I had into it and because it took me so long to do, a lot of people, at least I felt the pressure of a lot of people looking

• 20:33Speaker 02

  at me and at this book and people were waiting for it. And I knew they were ready to respond in whatever way, right? I didn't know what way. And I have always, you know, like worked for external praise and I'm aware of that. And so I went to therapy and I told my therapist, I said, I'm really worried that when this book comes out that I I'm going to sort of sink or swim on the world's reception of it and I don't want to do that. So how do I get out of that? How do I exist in a way where um, whatever the reception is of this thing, I will still be okay and not like break into one million pieces. And so he said, well, we have to create a definition of success that's on your terms.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  So it took me a lot of months and a lot of thinking and eventually I came back to him and I said, you know what? I'll feel totally successful with this if I know that I've done everything I could possibly do to make it as good as I possibly can. And that means never, you know, being lazy and not doing another revision. Or never not doing the research, or never not hiring the fact checker, or never not testing the recipe again. Or whatever. And that once I know I've given everything and like turned every stone, then I will be able to respond to any criticism. I'll be able to accept any praise because I'll know that I did anything, right? To me, a big, a big thing about responding to criticism is if there's a reason I made a choice

• 22:00Speaker 02

  and I can speak to that articulately, then um, I'm happy to accept criticism because sometimes it's just a difference of opinion. But if I felt pressured to do something, or I know that I didn't do my best or whatever, then a lot of times that criticism like really sort of gets me in the gut. And um, And so I really did that work and I also sort of committed to not reading reviews.

• 22:24Tim Ferriss?

  Good idea.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  And sort of, you know, and not reading comments and stuff. And so I've sort of shielded myself from a lot of stuff, but I, I have felt to generally really safe and, and strong since the book came out. And it's nice that there's all of this sort of praise or whatever, but I also just feel, um, yeah, I feel good about what I've done and I know the ways I could have done it better. There's always, and I get to go do more work in the world and try and do that better, you know? And it's okay.

• 22:53Tim Ferriss?

  How did your therapist help you or how did you put systems in place so that that definition of success would be at the forefront of your mind? I, I don't know, of course, because I don't have telepathy, but I suspect there had to be some point where you saw, maybe it wasn't a negative review, but maybe just a lukewarm response, or perhaps just some idiot on the internet with a loud voice yelling something or other. And for at least a moment, you were back in your old mindset of looking for external validation and in this case, not finding it. I, I, it, did that happen at all? If so?

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Oh, happens all the time.

• 23:37Tim Ferriss?

  So, yes, so then when, how do you take that, I think, very enabling definition of success and kind of bring it on to the front lines with you? Were there any exercises that you did? Was it the, the, speaking to the therapist on a weekly basis? How did, how did, because this is something I struggle with. I also be, have historically beaten the hell out of myself for the, the smallest mistakes and always looked for the things that can be improved rather than the things that were done well. So this is also selfishly something I'd love to.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Tim, I want to give you a hug.

• 24:14Tim Ferriss?

  It's true. It's true.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  I know.

• 24:16Tim Ferriss?

  It's true. It's true.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  I mean, I feel you like it's, I don't know why I'm, we're wired this way, but we are and it's, it's own struggle. I absolutely, you know, I still get those emails. One really clear example that I can think of. Oh, here. You know what? This is so epic. So I had two separate fact checkers check my book for science. For the cooking science, just because I'm not a scientist and I, I'm sure I got some things wrong. And it, it turned out I got a bunch of things wrong. And so luckily we caught almost all of them. And in the last minute sort of shuffle to like input all of their changes. I accidentally, um, what's the word when you, I, I, I said something positive when I sort of should have used a negative.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  I inverted the thing and it ended up being like on the very first page of anything science related in the book, page 29. And it was like the most basic definition of osmosis, right? And I accidentally inverted it and gave the opposite definition. Which really sets me up to look like an idiot, you know, for the next 400 pages. And, and so, and so, and it, it, um, happened in, and I didn't realize that this had happened until the very first, the day of publication, when like the first Amazon reviews went up. And someone very kindly mentioned it in an Amazon review and I lost my mind. I was like, this is gonna, you know, cause 70,000 books had been printed.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  I was like, 70,000 people are gonna get the wrong information and understand osmosis wrong because of me. And, you know, think I'm stupid. And, um, and I sort of just was like, everyone, you know, this is, comes true that my greatest fear that I'm not a brilliant food science person, you know, which I'm not a brilliant food science person, like all of this. And so it really sort of was, and that was really hard for me to let go of and be like, well, I made a mistake. It's a mistake. I tried my best at everything else. There's gonna be many more copies of this book. We're gonna fix it for the future. And, and so I sort of was able to work through the idea that I had made a mistake, you know, and a mistake is totally different than making a bad choice.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Or I had to forgive myself for making a mistake. And then. So maybe a year after that, um, I received this really nasty email from somebody who took the time to, you know, and he was a scientist, he's a scientist. And so he took the time to write this really angry email about this mistake and how if on page twenty nine, it was basically like he, he actualized the things that I had been so afraid of a year before. And he made it, he made it true. He, he manifested my worst nightmare. And so he wrote me this really mean email about how, how could this have made it to publication and what, how lazy was I and my publisher and don't we do fact checking?

• 27:10Speaker 02

  And if this mistake is on page twenty nine, then he couldn't possibly trust anything else I have to say. And all of this kind of stuff. And by that time, like I had been so sort of, I'd forgiven myself for this mistake so clearly, that I was able to write back to him and say, listen, you know, this was a mistake. I'm sorry for this mistake. We've remedied it since in future printings. And I really hope that the next time you make a mistake, people treat you with more compassion than you just treated me, you know? Yeah. And so, and so, and then he wrote back, he actually wrote back and he was super sorry, but it was just, you know, that he took, it was, it came on like the official letterhead of his university. Jeez.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  It was a whole thing. And so, um, that was a good practice for me to sort of understand the cycle of this thing, you know? And, um, you know, of course I'm going to beat myself up, but like, then what do I do right after that? And so how do I reframe it? And like, often what I like to do is think about how I'd treat somebody else, or how I would talk to a friend of mine who made a mistake, such a mistake, or got, received such criticism. And I would always be way nicer to anyone else. So I'm trying my hardest to treat myself like that now too. But that's easier said than done.

• 28:27Tim Ferriss?

  It is easier said than done, but it's, it's, I think it gets easier with the, the addition of examples like that and people hearing that so that they don't feel quite as alone, A, but also B, enabled in the sense because they see that it can be improved. And I have to, I have to share one, one book story because it's, it's, it's not entirely dissimilar, but I don't, I don't know if I've shared it before. I just feel compelled because I'm over caffeinated, which is, I remember when my, my first book, so the four hour work week is getting printed and I'm going to get my first real copy. And I, I come home

• 29:12Tim Ferriss?

  from lunch at one point and there's this, there's this thick, yellow padded envelope that has been shipped to my house, isn't on, on the doorstep. And I pick it up and I know it's the book. And what I said to myself, I did not open it. I said to myself, I know when I open this book, I'm going to find a typo and I need to prepare for that typo. So I waited all day until like 7:00 PM, like poured a glass of wine, like sat at my kitchen table and opened this book. And then right in the fucking dedication, huge typo, like first, like even before we get to the front matter, I'm like, you have to be fucking kidding me. I'm glad I have my wine, but, and, and at that point, the same thing, you're like,

• 29:56Tim Ferriss?

  okay, there are however many tens of thousands of these floating around and people are going to open it before they even get to my first paragraph of prose. I'd be like, what? Oh my God, what a feeling.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  Oh man. I mean, it still gets me. I mean, I write a column for the Times Magazine where, you know, it goes through two editors, at least a fact checker and a copy editor, and still mistakes get through, you know? And, and people really take the time to write to me about grammatical errors. And so, and so I just, and it always, I have a little punch in my gut. And then I'm just like, well, it was a mistake, you know? I, I, I have had, I'm getting better. One small way in which I'm getting better at being nicer to myself is letting go of mistakes. And it is, I do think it's really funny for people like me and you, when we're literally faced with them on the very first page. Like, it's just a good reminder, you know? No one's perfect.

• 30:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, no matter what, like every single time you have a piece of writing that is important to you, there will be some error that I think has, has like a consciousness of its own and just wills itself through all of the copy editors to make its way into, into print. But, so it goes. Have you found any particular, I've, and I'm not proud of this, but I've never gone to therapy. Uh, I've, I've, I've actually had a few sessions here and there, but really something like three or four sessions over the course of my life and it never, I, I never took to it. Have you found any particular type of therapy to be helpful for you?

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Um, I love my therapist. I, it's, he's the only one I've ever been to. I met him because he was my friend's boyfriend's therapist. So, um, and as, and being an insane person who, um, just like is, I'm just really highly anxious and highly, you know, kind of neurotic. Um, I Googled his name a whole bunch of times before I went to go see him. And after I started seeing him to try and figure out as much information about him and the kind of therapy that he practices as possible. He's, he's definitely old school therapist. There's no information on the internet about him. So I actually don't even really know. I've asked him so many times and he's really evasive about the specific kinds of things

• 32:16Speaker 02

  because he incorporates, I think so many different types of, um, methods into his work. And even in, we've been together, I think almost, almost maybe not quite 10 years yet. But, um, he's changed a lot. I can tell that he's going out and learning and the things that he focuses on change a lot. So for, very frustratingly to me for a really long time, his answer to almost anything I would say would be like, and how do you feel in your body? And I was like, I don't want to talk about how I feel in my body. I want you to tell me what to do. Like, what's the solution? And so.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  And so, um, but it's like over many years, he has trained me to really be attuned to my feelings and my body, which I think that's a lot of somatic work.

• 33:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  And, um, and I think technically what he does is CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. And so that's sort of the larger framework. And then within that, we do a lot of meditation and a lot of this somatic work. And, um, I feel like for somebody like me, who is so much in my head and so much about action, um, it is such a nice practice and such a great gift to myself, um, to have this place where I go once a week, where I am just led back into my body and into my feelings and have trained myself to really be aware of my feelings and not just my thoughts.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  Um, I think for, yeah, I, and, and so I'm so grateful to him and to this work for that.

• 33:54Tim Ferriss?

  This, this is something that's top of mind for me because a friend of mine just came back, uh, I want to say about a month ago from a Goenka Vipassana meditation retreat. And it, I've never gone to a Goenka meditation retreat, but it seemed, at least in, in his experience, to focus almost if not completely exclusively on bodily sensations. You're not following your thoughts. You're always returning to focusing on these different bodily sensations. And I'd love to hear, if you're willing, because I do think this is very important for me and, and potentially for a lot of people listening, how this somatic awareness,

• 34:37Tim Ferriss?

  this reconnecting to the body and the feelings ends up translating to your life. Right. So whether it's, whether it's, could you give an example, situation?

• 34:47Speaker 02

  I absolutely can, for sure.

• 34:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  So, um, well, and this, Tim, is so crazy because this is not that, um, different of a conversation than where we started with the manifestation journal, to be honest. So, um,

• 35:03Speaker 02

  I have always been a really like gut-led person, you know, intuitive person and especially in my career, like where I'm, I'm making decisions about, well, it doesn't feel right to go work for this, or it doesn't feel right to accept that job. And so, um, and anytime I've regretted doing something, or I've gotten myself into some complicated professional pickle and, or a personal pickle, it's often because I ignored that gut feeling, that gut voice. And so what this work teaches me to do is I'm basically just strengthening the muscle of that gut feeling, you know, and sometimes it's not just my gut, it's sometimes

• 35:44Speaker 02

  my heart feeling. Um, but I'm teaching myself to listen to the, to the really like quiet, everything else, really as much as possible, quiet my mind and all the things telling me, well, you should do this, or there was this much money, or shouldn't you do this thing? Because then you would get to be on a, you know, billboard with so-and-so or whatever, you know, all these other reasons. It sort of gets rid of the reasoning and it helps me listen to my heart and my gut. So let me think of an example, um, that recently happened. Uh, ooh, well, here, here's a, here's.

• 36:23Tim Ferriss?

  And you could, you could disguise details to protect the guilty.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  I'm trying to, no, no, I am. I mean, there are, I'm just trying, there, like I have a friend who recently, so I have been, I've been in a lot of emotional pain for the last several months. I've been in a really sort of just like feeling the weight of the world. I have been, um, learning a lot of things about my own life and things that I feel responsible for in terms of ways that I've participated in, in sort of, I don't know.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Um, systems that have put me down, you know, as like a immigrant kid with a funny name and sort of I had made decisions to maybe if I just achieve enough that people won't notice that I'm different and then they'll accept me. There's been a lot of that in my life of like, let me infiltrate this elite institution and make my way to the top and then there will be no way that anyone can um deny that I belong here. So that's sort of been, looking back at my life, that's been the pattern of everything that I've done. And I I'm sort of reckoning with what that's meant for me and how I want to continue moving forward. And there there's a lot of pain in that for me. So I've been

• 37:35Speaker 02

  really down and a lot of my friends can really tell that. And to the point where a lot of them started checking in on me, like via the phone, via text, via email. And I didn't know why a lot of people were checking in on me. So because I just have been in such sort of rage and pain and I've had this boulder of anger and sadness and and hurt in my chest. And about a month ago, I went to go talk to a friend who reached out to me and she said, please come talk to me. Like, I want to talk to you about this. I'm worried about you. I'm worried that you don't have the kind of supportive, you know, deeply mutually supportive relationships in your life that will support you through this and also through all of the stuff that's coming your way with this show coming out and all

• 38:20Speaker 02

  this kind of stuff. So I went there and I thought she was going to give me a hug and tell me how much she loves me. And tell me how great I am and I deserve all this great friendship or whatever. And she actually sat me down and she said, you know, these are these ways in which you've been letting down me, you've been letting down the people around you. And I know that you're in pain because you feel really lonely and separate from us, but you're actually doing it to yourself. And um, and so if you can work on some of this stuff, I think it will not only improve your relationships, but you'll feel better. And it, I mean, I was not, it was a real intense come to Jesus. We were standing on the side of this, like on the corner of the street in San Francisco and crying, we were both crying for like

• 39:04Speaker 02

  two hours. It was really intense. And um,

• 39:09Speaker 02

  I did not expect it at all. And, you know, and she said all this stuff and my immediate reaction was to be really defensive. And then as soon as I started to form the defensive sentences, but this, but that, I realized like, well, it doesn't even matter because her experience of me isn't, has nothing to do with my reasons for why I have not been there for her in this way or that way. So I just sort of like deflated and I looked at her and I said, well, what do I do? Like, how do I be better for us, for you, for me, for our friends? And so she told me and she said later, she said, I can't believe you didn't even have a single defensive reaction. Like, it was, I was really prepared for that. And it was really amazing that you did it. So we had this very intense sort

• 39:51Speaker 02

  of three hours together where we unpacked all of this stuff. And I asked her what I could do. She gave me a whole list of basic ways in which I could be a better friend. And, um, and ultimately, I felt very loved because I think it's really hard to tell somebody, you know, those hard, have those hard talks. So I felt really loved and cared for by the fact that she took the time and the energy and set the intention of setting me straight in these things. And, um, as I was driving home, I got back into my car and I had this, I sat and I buckled the safe, I think when I buckled the safety belt and it went across my chest, I realized that this pain, that this boulder of pain that

• 40:36Speaker 02

  has been in my chest, probably at least since December, you know, six or seven or eight months, um, was gone. And it wasn't that I felt so great all of a sudden, but this rock that has been weighing down every breath was no longer there. And I, um, it, it sort of maybe had been broken up and dispersed into my body. And I, and I woke up the next morning and I cried. I mean, I was still really upset about get, receiving this sort of very difficult feedback. But I also felt, realized I felt really empowered because she, you know, so much of my pain has been about a feeling of powerlessness, um, a

• 41:21Speaker 02

  feeling that like, there are so many things going on in the world that I have no power to change or improve. And this, she gave me something I could do something about. And not only could I do something about it, but I could.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Make my life better and my friends' lives better in the process. And so, um, I think having power and feeling, feeling, feeling the, you know, very strong and pure love of my friend really helped to dissolve this bad feeling. And this is not to say like my depression has lifted. I suddenly feel so much better, but I will say there was a marked difference, a marked immediate difference. And everyone who I'm around is like, wow, you're so much lighter. And I really do feel a lot lighter. So I don't know if that was really clear for you, but.

• 42:11Tim Ferriss?

  No, I. It's, it's, I think this is important territory to explore. So I appreciate you being game and we will, we will probably come back to some of this, but I, I don't want, I want to make sure that we explore the, the entire map of the terrain, up and down. And you mentioned, you mentioned, uh, love a few times. So I, I thought perhaps if you'd be willing to share, if you could answer the question, when did you first fall in love with food? I mean, was there any particular moment, any particular meal where it just really

• 42:54Tim Ferriss?

  kind of grabbed you by the collar and, and it made you become as involved or excited about food as you are today?

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. I don't know, you know, I don't know because my mom is such an incredible cook. And it was, um, cooking for us and shopping for us and spending time on food was the primary way that my mom really showed us her love. I think I've always associated cooking and eating with that feeling of like maternal warmth, you know? And it's what I try to put out into the world. There was, there's, I don't remember eating this, but the story is out. I have so many pictures of myself as a little kid and the stories also for me now as a cook, there are so many things that I understand about the lengths that my mom went to.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  To make this really delicious and nutritious and culturally meaningful food for us every day, and how much work went into that and how much time and labor. And so there's a lot of things that in retrospect, I have so much appreciation for her about that I probably just couldn't have ever imagined. But there's this dish that she quote unquote invented

• 44:14Speaker 02

  called Samin Polo, and Polo just means rice. And so, and it was, I think, the food she fed me when I was teething, you know, and it was this like mushy, it was long, like basmati rice with like really soft pieces of potato and tomato and chicken. And so it was just all these like, you know, typical kid foods, but really, really soft so that you could eat them even if you didn't have teeth. And, and, and I would eat that with yogurt and I loved it so much. And I loved that there was a dish named after me, you know, like, and, and I still sometimes go make that for myself. Like, so to me, I think the Samin Polo is a, is a great example of that.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  And it's funny because there have been for sure some really meaningful meals that I've had. And there's the one that sort of led me to become a cook that was, I think, really important in the story and in the timeline, but very rarely is, is a meal for me about the food. It's almost always about what happens at the table, you know, and the conversations and the feelings and all that kind of stuff. So I think, yeah, for me, like, yeah, it's maybe also not the healthiest thing to associate food so deeply with love.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  But I do, so.

• 45:37Tim Ferriss?

  You were, well, let me just ask the question, where did you grow up?

• 45:43Speaker 02

  I grew up in San Diego. I was born there. My parents came from Iran in the mid seventies to San Diego and then um I was born in seventy nine and I I lived this really funny, you know, in retrospect, this really funny life where I was, my high school was two blocks from the beach. I grew up going to the beach all the time. I eaten fish tacos, you know, hanging, driving around in cars with all my like very American friends and then I would come home and my mom always said, when you come back home, this is Iran. And so at home, we spoke Farsi. There are Persian rugs everywhere. We ate Persian food.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  You know, she insisted that we like follow the traditions of the culture and respect our elders. And so I, I very much had this um these two worlds that I was very aware of and and still sort of look back and think, think a lot about and how, and think a lot about how that's defined me and I think it led to me feeling like an outsider, no matter where I was because I'd never quite belonged. And I, in a way, I think that feeling of never quite belonging has come into, is one of my superpowers because I, it's very easy for me, even as I become more like quote unquote popular or successful or whatever

• 47:09Speaker 02

  to imagine what it's like to be on the outside. And so it really has made inclusivity and inclusion be a fundamental part of all of my work. And so whether I'm writing a recipe for the New York Times Magazine I constantly put myself into the shoes of someone who doesn't live in California and have access to the world's best produce, you know? Or what ingredients can anyone buy at any grocery store? Or will these instructions make sense to anyone? Or am I using language that will make you feel like you don't belong here? Or, or um, or whatever. So to me, it's, it's this funny thing where

• 47:49Speaker 02

  These things that caused me so much sort of pain and confusion as a kid have ended up being really wonderful tools in my work.

• 47:58Tim Ferriss?

  I'm so glad you're you're talking about not fitting in being a gift. And it's just, it's so timely. And I feel like we we should, we should definitely hug it out at some point. But literally just a week ago, I was reflecting on how many of the things that I've viewed from my past as having damaged me or resulting in me being damaged have actually been gifts. And and one of them was always feeling, in a sense, that I didn't fit in and being an observer, right? Because at least, I don't know what your experience was like, but I very often ended

• 48:39Tim Ferriss?

  up standing in a room and feeling like I wasn't actually there, but I was like a camera on the wall observing what was happening. And what I noticed, for instance, in your writing, and I I've read a million cookbooks, because I certainly would not consider myself a real chef as you are, but have read a lot. I keep very few in my actual kitchen. And your book is one of those books because you are so good at putting on the lens of beginner's mind and really putting yourself in the place of whoever it is you are writing

• 49:23Tim Ferriss?

  for who's intended to receive the teaching that you are putting down on paper or on the screen. So I wanted to dig into that a little bit because I feel that that reframe is so powerful. And it's easy to forget, too. It's easy to forget to put those glasses on with that reframe.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  For sure. But can I, I have, I definitely have a response to your question, but also you said something so beautiful and so crazy that that I feel like I needed to read you this quote that I just saw on Instagram.

• 49:57Tim Ferriss?

  I'm ready. I'm ready.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Okay, so I just pulled it up. It was by Marco Pierre White. Do you know who he was?

• 50:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's what is it? White Heat or White Hot was the book?

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was this like, kind of, or he is, he's not, he's not, he's still alive. Sorry.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Sorry, Marco Pierre White. He, he, I don't even know how to describe him. He was a, a trend-setting avant-garde chef in London in the eighties and nineties. He was kind of the original bad boy, if you will, like a proto Anthony Bourdain in some ways, just like known for his aggressiveness and, um, and his sort of brilliance and his creativity. And I think he's just sort of this like tortured bad boy kind of guy. And so there's this beautiful picture I saw of him on, on this account called niche on Instagram and, um, this quote from him. So he wrote, I believe there's really two species of human beings. The first species is the most common. There's more of them. They're individuals who, like we all, are born into a certain world and they become a product of that world.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  They absorb that environment they're born into. They become an extension of it. They become part of it. The rarer species, in my opinion, is the individual who has been damaged as a child. They have suffered misfortune and great tragedy. This doesn't mean that they're better people. It just means they've suffered. And very few individuals suffer that tragedy. But what happens is an invisible shell covers you. It protects you. So you don't absorb the world you're brought into. You don't become part of that world. You observe that world.

• 51:34Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  It was like exactly what you just said.

• 51:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's incredible.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  And so it was really, I mean, and I don't know that my life has been so dramatic to have been filled with like that level of tragedy, but absolutely, I think even small pains and small traumas, you know, or whatever, just like the circumstances of our lives, you know, can make us feel. And also the whole idea of being an outsider lately, I've been thinking, I'm like, oh yeah, I've always felt on the outside, but I'm like, does anyone really feel on the inside?

• 52:03Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  I don't know. So I don't know. But in terms of the beginner's mind and the, you know, that work, I think I have two, there are two sort of parts to that for me. I think when I started teaching people how to cook, like I never forgot what it's, what it felt like to be nineteen years old in a world-class kitchen and not know anything. I didn't know the difference between parsley and celery. So, or parsley and cilantro. I did know parsley and celery. But, but you know, I, I didn't know anything. I didn't know any fancy terms. I didn't know even the most basic things. Everything just was sort of overwhelming and too much information. And so.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  I've never forgotten the feeling of being so overwhelmed and lost and having nothing to cling to. And I feel like as long as I can remember that and return to that every time I I go to teach or talk or write, that then I'm really serving the people that I'm trying to serve, which who are the people who don't know, you know, there are so many times where I had to re um set myself and remember I wasn't writing my book or doing my work to impress my peers, you know, it's not for them, you know, it's not, you know, uh, also, like, there are way, there are million better chefs out there than than me, and I'm not out there to compete with them. I'm there to sort of be a translator from

• 53:26Speaker 02

  the professional, you know, for the amateur from the professional kitchen. So if I can remember that and and remember the feeling of being the beginner, then I can do my job right. And as a writer, this um, the way, the, I would say, the person who really has served as a model for me in that more than anyone else is Michael Pollan.

• 53:47Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah. And we're gonna, and we're definitely gonna, we're definitely gonna dig into

• 53:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:53Tim Ferriss?

  into Michael.

• 53:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so I talked to him, I talked to him um, right after he recorded with you, and he, yeah, he had such a great, great, he just, I think, like, you blew his mind. But um.

• 54:05Tim Ferriss?

  Well, the the feeling is mutual. I don't know how that guy speaks in finished prose, but I maybe I'll figure it out one day.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  It's bananas. But he um, he really taught me, you know, and this wasn't something he actively taught me, I learned by reading his work and really sitting with what it was that was so moving and effective about the way that he writes. And it's that he is not um, it's an old time, time worn journalistic tool to put yourself in, you know, to go do the experiential journalism. He just has this incredible way of.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  Immersing himself in really complicated worlds and being able to articulate the world, like what he's experiencing and what he's learning in a way for anybody. And so, you know, he did that with really complicated things about GMO corn. He did that with the botanical world. He's done that with the architectural world and, you know, most recently he's done it in the psychedelic world. And so, when I first sat down to write, I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this the Michael Pollan way. And I tried to do what he would do, which was to be this guide, you know, this newbie guide. But I realized that wasn't who I was. You know, what I needed to do was establish some authority as a teacher.

• 55:25Speaker 02

  So, I couldn't take you on this journey with me. You know, he's, he's so good at doing it in a way where he's not condescending at all and he's, but yet he's so informative. And so, I really had to sort of sit with that and let it distill through my bones and through my mind and figure out, how can I take that kernel of not being condescending, of being really clear and articulate, of holding your hand and bringing you through here, yet also having some authority? And so, the best way that I found to do that was to do what I did when I teach people how to cook and when I talk to them, which is to tell the stories of when I didn't know anything. And all of the 9,000 times I've messed everything up, because that is the closest that I can

• 56:08Speaker 02

  be to being in your shoes as a person who maybe doesn't know how to deep fry, you know, or is afraid you're gonna burn your house down or whatever. So, um, so ultimately, I couldn't be Michael Pollan and that's fine for both of us, but, but I could learn from him and, and really sort of put, put some of his techniques into action.

• 56:28Tim Ferriss?

  And we are going to revisit that, uh, because I'm, I'm fascinated by writing process, which really for people reading, uh, for people reading, if you're reading then this, then I wanna figure out how you're achieving synesthesia. But the, uh, for people listening to this, writing process, you can just substitute creative process. It's same, same. I mean, same with experimenting in the kitchen, same with, you name it, composing new music. But you had mentioned age 19 and I, this might be a good segue to the question, how did you first get exposed to Alice Waters?

• 57:04Speaker 02

  Um, so the very first time I ever heard of Alice Waters was when I moved to Berkeley in nineteen ninety seven to attend college and at my freshman orientation, somebody was like, oh, and there's a famous restaurant with a famous chef in town. And, and to me, coming from San Diego, eating mostly home-cooked food and sometimes fish tacos and, you know, Mexican food and Chinese food or whatever, there was no, I had no concept of what a fancy restaurant or a famous chef was. So that sort of went in one ear and out the other. And then the following year, I fell in love and my boyfriend was from San Francisco and we spent all of our time, like all of our free time eating.

• 57:43Tim Ferriss?

  Good, good place to do it.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. And so he took me, you know, to his favorite ice cream place and his favorite pizza place and all of the sort of childhood places. And he had always wanted to go to Chez Panis. And so I still didn't really know what it was. And I, but we decided to save, we, I knew it was expensive. So we saved two hundred and twenty dollars over the course of seven months. And we, um, there's a whole thing where you have to reserve your table at Chez Panis a month in advance, but the menu, which is fixed, only is published a week in advance. And so I was not yet a really adventurous eater, you know, that definitely things. So we did this complicated thing where we reserved for like four nights

• 58:27Speaker 02

  in a row. And then when the menu was published, we, we chose the one we wanted and canceled all the other ones.

• 58:34Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, because the menu is different each day?

• 58:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's different each night. And so, so I was like, ooh, that one looks good, you know? And so then we, so then we went in and I was, yeah, I was nineteen. I was wearing like black tank top and denim skirt. We were very out of place in this very, probably Berkeley's fanciest restaurant. Um, I, I think everyone probably knew that we were not regulars. And, um, and we had this really special meal. And I grew up eating really delicious food. So it wasn't that. This food was like the most amazing thing I'd ever eaten. It was just the entire experience was unlike any I had ever had in a restaurant. I really felt like I was at somebody's house and

• 59:20Speaker 02

  they were caring for me and they were so attentive to everything, you know? The bread and butter was never empty. The water was never empty, like the, the, the plate, the second we were done was whisked away. There was just the sort of attention that I had never received in a restaurant before, and I think that really got me. And um, so when the dessert came, it was a chocolate souffle and I, the server asked if I had ever had souffle before, and I said, no, and she said, would you like me to show you how to eat it? And I said, yes, please, sure. And so she said, well, you poke a hole with your spoon in the top and then you pour this like raspberry sauce in and that way every bite has sauce.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  So I did that and I took a bite and she said, how is it? And I said, oh, it's really good, but it would be a lot better if I had a glass of cold milk. And I had no idea that it was like so rude to tell this person in this fancy restaurant, what would make my thing better? You know, like I, you know, and also I had no idea that in fancy, you know, dining, fine dining, it's considered like a total faux pas to drink milk after 10 a.m. That's why in Italy, if you order a cappuccino after 10 a.m., they know you're American because only babies drink milk after 10 a.m. So.

• 1:00:43Tim Ferriss?

  Wow, I had no idea. This is good to know. All right.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  So like even having like the idea of like asking for milk with chocolate after dinner is like so gross to mo-, you know, to people in fancy food. And so um, she kind of laughed. She was like, you want milk? And I was like, yeah, like hello, hot chocolate thing, cold milk, like good combo. And so she went and she brought me milk and then she also brought us each a glass of dessert wine to sort of teach us the refined accompaniment. And it was this really sweet gesture.

• 1:01:08Tim Ferriss?

  If you get, once you've enjoyed your cold milk, you, you may want to sample another option.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  And so it was just this really, I don't know, it was like a little education. And so I was so moved by this whole experience and this whole dinner that I wrote this letter to Alice Waters. And I said, oh, you know, I brought it in a few months later, asking for a job as a bussler. And so I always had sort of like a basic job that I worked throughout college. So I brought it in and they said, oh, you have to bring that to the floor manager. So they led me to the floor manager's office. And when she opened the door, it was the souffle lady. And so, so she like remembered me, I think, I, you know, in retrospect, I think she was probably really desperate. Cause she was like, you want to start tomorrow?

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  So I started, I started the next day and pretty immediately I was just so enchanted by what was happening in the kitchen. And that I just, I wanted to learn, I wanted to learn what those people knew. I mean, that restaurant really exists like a pyramid and the cooks are at the top. They're the most respected, most skilled people who work there. And um, I wanted to, I wanted that, you know, I was so attracted to that.

• 1:02:19Tim Ferriss?

  What, what did the letter say that you wrote to?

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:02:24Tim Ferriss?

  Amy, do you remember any of it? Because you have.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  I have a letter thing.

• 1:02:28Tim Ferriss?

  You have a letter thing, as far as I can tell in the homework that I've done.

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:31Tim Ferriss?

  But do you, do you recall any of the elements of that letter?

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  I'm sure I used the word magical. It's a very, it's a very like Samin word is I'm like, I had a magical dinner at your magical restaurant. And I was so, you know, inspired. And um, I also don't think Alice Waters ever saw that letter. I think it like stopped with the floor manager probably, but um, I had never worked in a restaurant. I'm sure I revealed that, that I was just so moved by this incredible dinner that I wanted to work there. And could I please have an opportunity? I think it was a pretty straightforward one. I'm pretty good with like the flattery. I would say that's like an important part of these letters in my life where I, where I've like, you know, I'm writing to someone because I'm a huge fan. And um, and I'm like looking to collaborate or for some opportunity.

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  So I start like really with like laying it on thick, you know? And then, I mean, it's genuine, but like, and then um, and then I do my big ask. And so, yeah, I had Alice Waters' letter, then years later I had the Michael Pollan letter.

• 1:03:32Tim Ferriss?

  So, all right, so let's, let's pause on the Michael Pollan letter.

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  Okay, sorry.

• 1:03:36Tim Ferriss?

  So this, this is place, it places time and place when you get a letter to Michael Pollan.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  Oh, um, in when, when's the letter to Michael Pollan? So.

• 1:03:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, where were you? What were you doing?

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  Oh, so that was about 10 years later, about 10 years later? Yeah, almost 10 years later, I was working at a different restaurant in Berkeley and I saw Michael Pollan's name in the reservation book. And I was a huge fan of his and I had met him a couple of times at Chez Panis and he was, he, you know, he'd been involved with Alice and, and her work, like their work really sort of intersected and so they were big supporters of one another. And I remember, you know, before Botany of Desire came out, that like, for whatever reason, we had a copy of a galley at Chez Panis that we were passing around and, and reading. And I was like, who is this person? This is amazing. And so since I had read that book, I had been a voracious reader of anything that he

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  wrote and I really admired the way that he was an advocate and so eloquent about the things that I care so deeply about and, and work on. And, um, and so to me, he was somebody who I really looked up to also because even though I began cooking, I never let go of the idea of wanting to be a writer. Like, I always wanted to be a writer since way before I was a cook and that was something that I really kept pursuing in small ways, even as I was cooking. And so by the time that Michael Pollan's name appeared in our reservation book, I had applied to a few different creative writing programs and gotten in and deferred and never taken a leap.

• 1:05:18Speaker 02

  And I knew that he was teaching at the UC Berkeley School of Journalism. So I wrote this, I like quickly scrawled out this card saying, you know, I'm your number one fan, um, you mean so much to me. I would love to come audit one of your classes. And, you know, that basically that it wasn't even a super big letter, but then, um, I gave it to the servers and I went home that night and I asked them to give it to him when he was eating. So then, you know, they did. And then a few weeks later, I mean, this speaks so like directly to who Michael is. He wrote me back. He wrote me an email and said, why don't you come in and talk to me? And so, um, he wrote me back. I went in to go talk to him and I asked him to audit his class.

• 1:06:00Speaker 02

  And he said, you know, it might be a little bit tricky because a lot of people want to audit the class and and, and, and so he's like, but there's one spot, there's one extra spot. So why don't you come on the first day and we'll, you know, you guys can all vie for that spot. So I showed up the first day of this tiny class. There was like 11 people in the class, I think. And I think over 200 people showed up for that last spot. And so, um, and so we each had to write an index card saying why we, you know, why we wanted to audit. So we did, and then we went away and I later that day I was lamenting to my friend that there was no way that I would ever get the spot. And my friend said, don't you know anything? Don't you know anything about academics? And I was like, I don't, I don't tell me.

• 1:06:45Speaker 02

  And she said, you need to write him right now and say that he needs to give you this precisely because you are a cook and you will bring a different, you know, you will bring a different viewpoint into this class and the conversations will be different because you're from the inside of this world. Cause the class was about, it's called following the food chain and it was about the food industry. And so I did that, even though it felt so wrong to write to Michael Pollan and tell him that what he needed to do, you know?

• 1:07:12Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  You know, like from, you know, some 23 year old or whatever. I don't know how old I was, 29 maybe. But, um, so I did and he, he was like, okay, like it was so simple and weird. And so then, you know, I asked, I did the thing that I was so scared to do and I asked. And then that led to me auditing this class, which ended up being a really incredible and pivotal moment for me. But I, I don't know that I could have put my finger on at that time, but now I look back at it and it's not only when I got, got to work with Michael and what led to. You know, us working together on writing and cooking, but also I became part of an incredible

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  community of journalists and writers, and which is a thing I had always wanted. By then, I had a really vast network of cooking people, and I was part of an incredible cooking world. But I didn't have a community at all to support me as a writer. I didn't know what a pitch was. I didn't know anything about writing. I didn't know articles are measured in words, you know? I didn't know any of that. So I learned a lot of that, not only from that class, but also just from being around these people and having peers who I could ask all these questions of. And now I work in an office, you know, a shared writing space with so many of those people. I've gone on to collaborate with them. We, you know, they're, they're my community who I am constantly sort of reaching out to, and now I'm able to support

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  in my own ways. And so that was a really important thing that I asked for.

• 1:08:46Tim Ferriss?

  Well, let's, let's look at the nitty gritty of that. So you start with a note in the restaurant that says, "I'm your biggest fan. Can I audit your class?" Were there any other ingredients in that note? I'm gonna, I'm gonna hit, I'm gonna hit.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Oh, it was a card. So it wasn't, I remember that it was a card. It was not like a letter on paper that was folded.

• 1:09:08Tim Ferriss?

  We're talking card like Hallmark card? Are we talking the business card?

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I went to the, I think, because on the street where that restaurant was, there was a couple of stationery stores. So I think I bought a card, like a, yeah, like a hot, like some sort of greeting card. So I, it wasn't so long, whatever I wrote. I think I just, I think really it said, like, "My name is Samin. I'm a huge fan of yours.

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  I have always wanted to write. I really would like to call audit your class." It would be so mean, it would be, it would mean so much to me. I mean, they're honestly, I don't know why, there's no reason why Michael Pollan should write either.

• 1:09:44Tim Ferriss?

  I don't, I'm not sure you've given yourself enough credit. So that's, that's, that's part one. Part two, he, he writes you back, you show up, it's like the gladiatorial games with 200 competitors, and you write an index card. Do you remember any of what you put on the index card?

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  I don't, I, oh, man, I don't remember that. Oh, I wish I had the index card.

• 1:10:07Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So then your friend says, "Hey." Don't you know anything about academics? No, I don't. Please tell me. You need to write this. And so you send this follow up email. Do you remember like subject line? Anything else that you put in that email?

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  No, should I see if it's in my? I don't know if I had this email address then.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  Should I search for my oldest email to my call right now?

• 1:10:32Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you know what? We could, we could look at, we could, we could look it up. You could send it to me later and I can, if you find it, I'll put it in the show notes for people.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  I think the thing for me is that I know that I'm very verbose. So anytime I sit down to ask for something, I think, um, and I intuitively knew this before. And now I know it really clearly and articulate it to myself and other people, which is like, if you're writing an email to somebody to ask them for something, just get to it.

• 1:10:58Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:10:59Tim Ferriss?

  Don't beat around the bush.

• 1:11:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, and so, and so I don't need your whole backstory. Like, I don't need the boo boo boo boo, just like say the thing. So I'm pretty sure I did that one pretty tightly because we were already in this conversation.

• 1:11:12Tim Ferriss?

  You need, you need to have me in the class because I'll bring.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I'm a cook and I have this, you know, and I work in the sustainable food world. And I'm going to bring, because what he had told me, I sort of glossed over this before. But what he had told me when I had come to his office hours before I went to that first day of class, was he said, listen, I know you want to take this class, but it's never going to happen because I have obligations to a long list of people and you're at the very end of that list. Because first my obligations are to the students of this graduate school. And then of the other graduate schools of UC Berkeley. And then to the undergraduates of UC Berkeley and then the community. And so there are so many other like paying students ahead of you that you are low priority to me. I mean, he didn't do it in a mean way, but it was just like he was.

• 1:11:58Tim Ferriss?

  Tell you how it is.

• 1:12:00Speaker 02

  Telling me what it was. And so, but he was like, but if you want, you can come to this day. So I did. I saw it in action, the fact that there were so many people. I also think he's a softie at heart, even though he's like, comes across as a rule follower. So even though there were only supposed to be 12 people in that class, I think there ended up being 15 of us, you know? And so, so, um, but, but yeah, I, I don't think if I had not followed up with that email and, and said, listen, like, you need me precisely because I'm not one of those people further up on this list. Um, that, that, that was why, you know, I was so enthusiastic. And in, in, sort of since the class, like during the class and since

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  the class, it became really apparent that I did do precisely that, that I did bring a viewpoint that nobody else in that room could have. And I helped arrange for us a field trip, you know, to this like wackadoodle sustainable farm. And there were ways where because I had an insider's perspective, I could connect other students with like the kinds of stories that they probably wouldn't be able to find on their own because I was living it, you know, and immersed in it. So I don't think he regrets it. I hope not.

• 1:13:14Tim Ferriss?

  So we're talking, we're talking about a writer who's had a big influence on your writing, your career. Let's backstep for a second to, to books that have had a big impact on you. And in the course of doing my, my homework, I don't know when this came about, but, and, and can't believe everything you read on the internet. So feel free to correct. But a list of books that the Chez Panis chefs gave you, this is something that came up. And then there are, there are few folks who came up, I guess Marcel Hazan, Patience Gray. Could, could you describe how that list got to you? And what were, what were some of the books on that list that had a big impact on you?

• 1:14:00Speaker 02

  For sure. I mean, those are also just cookbooks. So I have other, other books I can talk about too, if you want, but.

• 1:14:05Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, both. Yeah, let's, let's do both and you can do in, in whatever order you like.

• 1:14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. But in terms of the cookbooks that have been deeply formative, I think I don't before. So one of the incredible things about Chez Panis is that, and this is absolutely comes from Alice and the, and the world that she's created, is she is an artist above all else. And so she really surrounds herself with deeply creative people and artists of all different kinds. And so food is just one part of this lifestyle that she really tries to create and teach people and immerse people in. And so beautiful writing is a big part of that. And I think I had a pretty limited exposure to

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  cookbooks before I came to Chez Panis, where I just knew them as the thing that you look up the recipe in to make for dinner. And so when I begged the chefs there to teach me how to cook, you know, and just to like, set the scene, the time was about, I think this was 2000, the restaurant kept winning, you know, best restaurant in America from Gourmet Magazine, which at the time was like, the biggest sort of award of its type. And so it really, if it, there, there was no reason for these chefs to let me into the kitchen. There was a line a mile long of much more experienced people than me trying to get this job. And I knew that and

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  they knew that, everyone knew that. And so I knew nothing and I, all I had was my enthusiasm, really, and my dedication and like my work ethic. So I, I asked the chefs what I needed to do in order to earn an unpaid apprenticeship. Like, that's what I was competing for.

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  And and they said, you need to cook every day. You need to watch these cooks every day you're here. You need to learn how to taste and develop your palate. And you need to go home and read all these books. And they gave me a stack of like, probably thirty books. I mean, they didn't actually give me the books. They told me about thirty books to read. And so they're like, these are the books that are the Chepigny's Canon and things like there were but they were books unlike anything I had ever seen. So Patience Gray, who was an incredible, incredible writer in the mid-century who traveled with her husband throughout like Turkey and Greece and Italy and Spain, wrote this beautiful book called Honey from a Weed that is just, it's like a poem. And yes, there are recipes with like cups and measures in

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  there. But there is just a way that sort of one country to the next, she connects all these dots. And it's so beautiful and moving. And it's it's it put together writing and food in a way unlike I had ever seen before. And so that was a really, really formative book for me. There was another one, kind of in the same vein called The Obére of the Flowering Hearth by a person named Roy-Andrée de Groot. I think it's his pen name. And this this one was like, if a novel met a cookbook, kind of, because it was an imaginary world that this guy had sort of created about this like magical obére somewhere in the mountains. And

• 1:17:16Tim Ferriss?

  Obére, which is

• 1:17:19Speaker 02

  Like a like a like a mountain hotel somewhere in France. Yeah. And so, and a mountain in a country in, I guess, like, you know, and so there were just these kind of like beautiful narratives that were intertwined in talking about food that were so moving to me. And then there were the basic cookbooks that I had to learn, you know, history and tradition and culture from things like Richard Olney's writing and, you know, Marcela Hazan and

• 1:17:55Speaker 02

  Oh gosh, I mean, all of the Chepenis books. So it was really a kind of a world that I had never been exposed to. Because we at my house had, growing up, we had two Persian cookbooks. Our culinary tradition was entirely oral. And then we had like a Sesame Street cookbook that had a banana bread recipe that I used to make when I was little. And that was about it. There was not this like deep tradition of cookbooks that I grew up around. So this was a really moving and influential thing for me. And then, um, yeah, writing wise, I have read, I mean, so many, I read so much nonfiction. I mean, I love, love, love John McPhee. I love, love.

• 1:18:39Tim Ferriss?

  Amazing.

• 1:18:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, to me, I've learned so much about structure from John McPhee. So.

• 1:18:44Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have a favorite, one or two favorites?

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  The levels of the game I love. I love.

• 1:18:49Tim Ferriss?

  So amazing. Recommend to all, to all people. If you read the book description, people will be like, what? An entire book on a single tennis match? Trust me. Yeah. And trust you.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  It's so good. It's so good. And it really taught me that, you know, there was a period where I was like, maybe I write my book like the levels of the game and I find a way to tell a story. You know, there's just, he is a master of structure and I find, you know, I, for me, a challenge as a writer. And also as, as now, just like a creative thinker, probably one of the most thrilling things for me that I'm so excited by, but also intimidated by is coming up with structure for things. And so, and, and in being in search of always like the simplest, most elegant structure. And I feel like you can convey information so much more clearly when a structure, um, is

• 1:19:42Speaker 02

  right and, and simple, you know? And so it's fun. It's a fun practice. Right now I'm figuring out like if I'm going to do another show and I've, and or another book. And I, I think I figured out an idea. And so now I'm just like, okay, how do I structure it? So it's just that kind of stuff where I, I love, I love those. And very randomly, this book I saw one day at a store when I was struggling, like on the 900th draft of my own book. And it has been so meaningful and moving to me. It's called Several Short Sentences on Writing. And it's by a writer named Verilyn Klinkenberg, who teaches at Yale. And he used to have a column in the New York Times, I think it was called like On Rural Living, where, and he's written about writing.

• 1:20:23Speaker 02

  And the entire point of this whole small book is make your sentences shorter. And it really is so good.

• 1:20:33Tim Ferriss?

  If one is to look at your bio, it's a very impressive bio, right? Been called the next Julia Child by NPR's All Things Considered. You're a New York Times bestselling author. You have this TV show. You have all of these various accolades. And I think it's easy for someone perhaps to look at that, be very intimidated and assume that you've just been getting up at bat and hitting home runs since you began one after the other. So if you'd be open to it, I'd love to talk about failures, whether those are failures, apparent failures that set you up for later success. And of course, those people who've read Travis's mentors will recognize this question or heard the podcast.

• 1:21:17Tim Ferriss?

  I like to ask this question in terms of like favorite failures, past failures that really taught you something that seemed like a failure, but in fact, if they hadn't happened, something else, which was a success, wouldn't have happened later. Can you give us any examples that?

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  I have an endless list. There's so many options here. Yeah, I mean, I was just, I was thinking, you know, I came really close to writing, to co-writing two other books before I ended up writing my own book. And neither of those felt right, but I was just so desperate to work on a book that I almost did those ones. And I kind of messed up both of those opportunities and I felt really bad, like I would never get an opportunity to write my own book. And if I had done those, I don't think that I-

• 1:22:04Tim Ferriss?

  How did you mess them up, if you don't mind me asking?

• 1:22:06Speaker 02

  Well, the one that I can remember more clearly was-

• 1:22:12Speaker 02

  It was gonna be a book about pickling.

• 1:22:14Tim Ferriss?

  Hey.

• 1:22:14Speaker 02

  It's so specific. It was gonna be a book about pickling and I was gonna do it with a friend. And there was a way where I um, we met with this agent, a book literary agent who had brought the idea to her. And um, something, I just didn't love, I don't know, I couldn't have put my finger on it, but to me, at that time, I was like an agent, like that's a high powered. You know what I mean? Only fancy people have agents. And so I felt like I needed to prove myself to this agent. And there was something about like our relationship just didn't feel right. And I don't know that I, I don't think I trusted her completely. And I felt really um, kind of put down by her. It just didn't feel very good.

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  And so I think, I can't, this was so long ago, I can't remember exactly what happened, but I think I like inelegantly. Extracted myself from that, like I had committed to it and then I uncommitted because I just didn't feel like it was the right thing. And then I just worried like, oh no, does this mean I'll never find an agent or I'll never get to do a book? So that was one. I'm trying to remember. And then um, then, oh, there was actually another, another agent. Man, I have like really have like a trail of burnt agents behind me. Um, there was another agent. Um, who came to me and um, and again, she made me feel like I needed to prove myself to her.

• 1:23:42Speaker 02

  And that my ideas weren't that good. And I had this one idea and she didn't want me to do that. And she wanted to sort of.

• 1:23:48Tim Ferriss?

  Find you?

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  She found me, um, I used to um, do these dinners. Uh, at Tartine Bakery in San Francisco, which is its own cult place. And so because of that, these dinners that I had, it was called Tartine After Hours, became like this other, it became a little cult thing. And so in a very small world, it was a very popular thing. And so I think she sort of was in that world. And so she found me through that. And um. There was just a way, I, I think what it was, was I. Yeah, I've never actually spent the time to think about it, but in both of those situations, the relationships, the fundamental primary relationship, which at that time was with the agent,

• 1:24:33Speaker 02

  like it wasn't so much with an editor yet or anything, it just was so on uneven ground. And it was this thing where I was struggling to prove myself as a creative thinker to them. And it was just, I didn't very much feel supported. And that is not a great place for me, or maybe for anyone, from which to do your best creative work. I've learned that for sure in my career now as a writer who's worked with so many different kinds of editors. Like my current editing situation at the Times Magazine is so wonderful because my editor, I love her so much, and she knows exactly how to lay it to me.

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  Like she tells it to me straight, you know, she knows how to give me a smackdown when I need it. But she also is so kind and supportive. And so there's just this very fundamental trust that we have where I used to turn stuff into her every, every month in my column. And I would have like a one-page apology, that I would write this like apology email before, with each draft. And she was like, you have to stop sending these apologies. This is insane. Like you're doing your best. I know you're doing your best. I also know you're not going to phone it in. And also the stuff you're turning in is not bad, so stop apologizing. So, but I had sort of, there's just been so many different experiences I've had where, where I have been made to feel like I'm dumb or I'm not trying hard enough.

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  And I actually, I'm trying so hard, you know? And so I now have learned from my own self that I, I, I need to be smarter and very careful about what kind of creative collaborations I enter. Because I need a kind of a relationship that's vulnerable and open. And it's not that I don't want criticism. I actually do want your criticism because I do want to make it better. But how do you convey that to me, you know? And also do we have a fundamental trust between the two of us that we're both, you know, that we both are aiming toward?

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  The same goal of, you know, making the best possible thing. So I think, I don't know. I, sorry, I've completely veered away from your original question.

• 1:26:47Tim Ferriss?

  No, I'll be, I'll be, I'll be the guide rails. It's okay. Because I wanna, I want to actually hone in on something that you said about your editor at The Times, who can deliver the smackdown, but do so with a delivery that you find very palatable. And that you do want the criticism, but it's a, it's a question of it being constructive and delivered in the right way. Can you give any examples of, of how that editor might deliver criticism? Or it could, it could be a hypothetical, made up example, or, or just what makes it so walk that,

• 1:27:24Tim Ferriss?

  you know, thread the needle of being both effective criticism, but, but not making you defensive or deflating you?

• 1:27:31Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, I wish I had a very specific example, but I can set the emotional tone of it, which is that there is, we have developed, I mean, it's been over a year now that we're in constant contact. So we have at this point developed an understanding that like, I know that she wants the best for me. And she knows that I'm always gonna do my best. And so if she tells me something, even in shorthand, sometimes now she does this thing where she just writes, "Do better." You know, and so now I know, okay, like that's a phrase that I need to do better, you know, or it's not working. Like, I think so much of it is in emotion, is like a fundamental, um, um, the emotional work that we had done earlier. And that had come through these vulnerable exchanges where I, where I had said to her, "I'm really sorry."

• 1:28:16Speaker 02

  And she said, "Listen, I know you're doing your best." So once I was able to trust her in that way, I think I have, I've let go of a lot of the defensiveness. I'm trying to think of some of the early, she, she was a lot more gentle in the beginning. And I think that had a lot to do with it. She was very gentle and she would, she would sort of write out more complete sentences about why something was over explainee or, or maybe like too, too, I don't know, snobby or whatever. She, so I think she really did the work initially to allow me to trust her and feel safe with her. And then that now we have such a nice shorthand where like, I can just be like, can you just do this, you know, or whatever?

• 1:28:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, keep it short and sweet. Before, before you came to writing though, we've, we've talked about the, the co-writing opportunities which did not manifest, or that you extricated yourself from, and then ultimately having the opportunity to, to do, to write the type of book that you want to write. Do you have any failures or missteps from what preceded that, I, I assume?

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  One thousand.

• 1:29:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, like the, in the, from the culinary world or restaurant world or otherwise?

• 1:29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so many. I mean, I would say the two biggest failures of my career are culinary. Um, and they, they sit in beautiful contrast to one another. So, one of them was I helped run a restaurant for five years that was struggling financially the whole time it existed. And, um, there was a way where it was not my restaurant. I was helping my mentor run it. I felt very loyal to him. And in the beginning I had, you know, like restaurants are often, um, lose money for up to five years, you know, before they sort of hit. It's, it's really just a terrible financial model. So, so there's a way where like they, they often lose money for a long time before they sort of hit steady ground. And we actually hit steady ground after three

• 1:30:10Speaker 02

  years, but then, um, in 2008, the economy crashed. And so it was sort of just this thing where we weren't gonna, we knew we were never gonna make it okay. And there were a lot of sort of, I think, community, there was a culture issue in that restaurant that, um, now with so many years of distance, I can see was almost insurmountable. And, and if a culture in a place isn't sort of supportive, it's really hard to turn the culture of a place around, I think. And so-

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  In some ways, to me, I was ready to like cut it, call it quits after three years. But for my mentor, this was like his big shot that his career had been working, you know, aiming toward, and he wasn't ready to give up. So I, I stayed for two years longer than I wanted to, and I was really unhappy. I was really unhealthy, like just physically it really, um, I feel like it took a toll on my adrenal system. I had a really bad temper. This was right, you know, right, but this was eventually like led to the breakdown that led me going to therapy. Like, I was emotionally just out of touch. I was not that kind to the people who worked for me. It was not great. It was not my greatest hour. And so I think staying through something and feeling how bad that made me feel, how

• 1:31:25Speaker 02

  bad it made other people feel, and that it ultimately sort of fizzled to this slow, painful death, really taught me that I don't ever want to be part of that kind of situation again. Like, I want to be the one calling, calling quits. You know, I want to be the one who like determines the end of a story. And when I think about it, you know, in any creative project, which even, or business probably, in some ways, a business is not so different from a creative project. Like, things have a beginning, a middle, and an end. You know, like even when people sit down to write a movie or to write a series, even if you want to pitch a TV series, um, you know, an ideal lifespan for a TV series

• 1:32:07Speaker 02

  is five to seven years. And so before you even start, you know how the series is gonna end, right? Like, there's a way where it's not a bad idea. An ending is not necessarily a failure. And so I really got to put that into practice a couple of years later, when after the restaurant closed, I started this like kind of small food market that immediately became a huge success and got so much media attention and all of a sudden was, um, I started it because I just missed cooking for people and I wanted to cook a little bit in my spare time while I was figuring out how to be a writer. And then all of a sudden, all of my time and resources and energy were going toward running this food market that wasn't even the main thing I wanted to accomplish in my life.

• 1:32:51Speaker 02

  And so even as it grew and we got more followers and more customers and we're making more money or whatever, I knew that it wasn't what I wanted to do. So instead of letting that also fizzle out, I ended it after two years. And people really wanted, like, all the food media was like, what's the gossip? Why is this closing? I was like, it's not closing, you know, nothing's wrong. Like, I'm just closing it because I want to do something else. And so

• 1:33:17Tim Ferriss?

  Was that, was that an easy decision, a hard decision? I mean, walk us through, I don't know, the, the, like, the weeks before making it official? This is over?

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  Months, months.

• 1:33:28Tim Ferriss?

  Months, okay, yeah, so, so

• 1:33:30Speaker 02

  It took months. So I knew, in, in one way, it wasn't an easy decision because my gut told me to, that, that I didn't want to do it. In practical terms, it was much more difficult because there were a lot of people who I felt responsible to, who relied on this market for their income. And so, and, or they thought they relied on the market for their income. And so there was a story that we all were telling about how important this market was in all of these people's lives. And I feel, I have very maternal instincts, like, I feel a lot of responsibility for the community that I create and, and to them. And so if anything, I wanted, I felt a need to stay for them rather than for myself. And, um, and that was really brutal.

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  And around this time, I was like, really into yoga, like, super into yoga. And, and when you go to yoga class, like, often what they talk about is setting an intention. And so I was really, like, doing a lot of yoga talk. And, um, and I had this thing where I realized that

• 1:34:32Speaker 02

  Because my career was so amorphous, because there wasn't some like other person on whose career I was modeling my own, there wasn't an easy way for me to know that I was moving, I don't know, in the right direction toward anything I wanted to actually accomplish, right? There weren't like these landmarks of like, when you want to be a doctor, you do this, this and this and this. When you want to be a lawyer, you do this, this and this. And so I didn't have that. So how did I know I was on the right track to where I wanted to go? And I really started to hone this thing for myself, which was, well, since I don't know where my ultimate um, ending point is, or my ultimate goal is, I, I, what I do know is that it's a feeling. I have a feeling in my belly-

• 1:35:15Tim Ferriss?

  I like that.

• 1:35:15Speaker 02

  -that I, I want to work toward. And so, and that, and that when an opportunity comes to me, or a professional decision comes to me, I can think about it in terms of, if I say yes or no to this thing, will it take me closer to or farther away from this feeling that I try to feel and also create in the world? And so probably the like biggest conflict in deciding to close that market was that that feeling has a lot to do with community and supporting people. And I knew that closing, closing the market would sort of temp, in the short term, maybe like take me farther away from that. But I also had to fundamentally

• 1:35:55Speaker 02

  believe that it would give me the space to like in a different way, on a larger scale, go back toward that. So-

• 1:36:03Tim Ferriss?

  So a few questions related to that. Why was the food market so quickly popular? Were there any particular reasons that, that come to mind?

• 1:36:13Speaker 02

  I think part of it was timing of it. Um, so what it was, was I was really good at making pasta. That's like, I lived in Italy for two years. I made pasta every day for 10 years. I really love making pasta. And, um, and so people, when the restaurant closed, I would sort of bump into people in town and they'd be like, well, we really miss your pasta. And so, and I really enjoy the like beautiful sort of manual labor of making it and the folding and the cutting and the whole thing. And so, um, I thought, well- What if I cut out all of the parts of having a restaurant that I hate and I just make the pasta and sell it to people? So we had, I had these friends who had a um

• 1:36:53Speaker 02

  commercial kitchen that was empty a lot of evenings, so they let me use it and I was like, okay, well, how do I sell this pasta to people? So this was, I think it was two thousand nine, so it was before, I think it was before Instagram or certainly before Instagram was really big. And I maybe had a Twitter with like five followers, but like really Facebook was the main thing that I used. And so I think I put on Facebook, like, I'm gonna sell some pasta, does anyone buy it? And I made a Google Doc. And people started buying it. And so um we had, I opened a little like Shopify storefront where people would order this stuff online. And then so I would know exactly how much to make. Because a big thing in food is like if it's, it's already so hard to make money and really if you're not efficient in terms of

• 1:37:38Speaker 02

  every decision of how much labor and ingredient, you'll really lose money. So by sort of taking my orders in advance, I knew exactly how much to make. And nothing was gonna go to waste. And then people would come pick up their stuff. And so then very quickly it grew from just pasta to pasta and sausages to pasta and sausages and cookies. Cause everyone else that I knew who was an unemployed cook, who maybe wanted to start their own food business, also wanted to do these things. So we, we started doing this and all of a sudden it became this like online marketplace where you could preorder your and prepaid for your food. And then come and pick up your stuff like a week later. I know it was sort of this way to get beautiful restaurant quality stuff at home.

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  But it was before, it was certainly before caviar, it was certainly before like a lot of these internet food things. And it was also before Good Eggs, which is like a food tech startup that um was sort of born out of, of this thing. Um, and so it was definitely like one of the first online, like, I don't know. Food order your food thing. I don't know. It was just a weird time. And so then we had a mailing list from the restaurant and I started sending it out to that and very quickly because the press sort of was like very interested in this weird way that I was operating this thing. The mailing list grew to like, you know, many, many tons of thousands of people, way more than I

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  could support. And so it was just, it was, it was a whole thing that grew out of control beyond the resources I had very quickly. And so I was always struggling to keep up and that became such a source of stress. And all I had wanted to do was to make some pasta.

• 1:39:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:18Speaker 02

  And all of a sudden, I'm like managing like nine thousand business licenses and permits and health department and, you know, taxes and sales tax. There was just like vendors and vendor infighting and people wanting their beans vegan or whatever. Like, it was so much more than I ever wanted to do. And it took so much energy and I couldn't do it anymore. And I knew, I knew I couldn't do it anymore.

• 1:39:45Tim Ferriss?

  So you have, so you have this feeling, I can't do this anymore, which I think a lot of people have, and yet they keep doing it, right? For a long time. And maybe, maybe forever, to a certain extent. Now, while this is happening, you have these maternal instincts kicking in, which make you feel obligated on some level to help these people who, at least in your head at some point, and in their heads, depend on this income. When, do you remember like the meal, the drinks you had with a friend, the walk you took where you're just like, you know what? Fuck it.

• 1:40:27Tim Ferriss?

  Like, I have to, I have to close, I have to close this down. When you went from thinking about winding it down to like, okay, tomorrow morning, like, that's it, I'm doing it.

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  I'm pretty sure it was therapy.

• 1:40:39Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, okay, all right.

• 1:40:40Speaker 02

  I'm pretty sure it was therapy and I'm pretty sure I realized, I think the like thought that sort of like really hit my body that I realized. Um, it was that I had by that point spent ten years cooking. I had been wanting to be a writer for, you know, since I was fifteen years old. Um, I finally had a chance to like make the time to be a writer. I even had an office that I had that I shared with other writers. Like, I had everything in place, but because this thing was ruining my life and making me miserable, I couldn't do the thing that I always had wanted to do and was like basically ready to do. And so, and not that it was some easy thing to just go be

• 1:41:25Speaker 02

  a writer, because like what I was gonna write, I ended up writing blog posts for yogajournal.com for twenty-five dollars. Like, it wasn't so much income or anything. It was just this, I had this, I knew that this thing was making me like emotionally and almost physically ill. So I had, I just had to stop. And I think, um, in that, now I'm just so much more attuned to that moment, to that feeling of knowing like this thing is bad for me, you know? And no matter how many other people it's good for, it's making me sick and it's making me feel really bad. So I think, um, I, I try to be a lot more aware of that. And

• 1:42:07Speaker 02

  sometimes now I get into situations or projects or jobs where like I, that feeling comes up again, but I'm already in it. And often now, a lot of the work that I do is temporary, you know, like it's a one, I'd make, I do one project, I do one article, I do one story, I do one whatever. Um, so now for me, it's more about learning, um, and being really attuned to what's happening. Even just, for example, in the process of making this show. Like, I had never made a show before. This was this incredible opportunity that came to me. I was so excited and felt so lucky to go make it and go do it. And, um, and I still feel so lucky and so excited. But a lot of things happened throughout the making of the show that I was like, oh.

• 1:42:50Speaker 02

  This doesn't feel very good, or this doesn't feel very fair, or I don't ever want to be in a situation like this again. You know, and, and so now that I know what this situation, what, what's possible, like I know that negatively and also positively, I know what to ask for and I know how to articulate that. And so, you know, like I will forever insist, you know, like to me, I'm gonna insist on working with a lot more people of color in the future. Like I'm gonna insist on making sure that I have a lot more power creatively in anything that I do. Because I, I realized I became very frustrated when I didn't have as much power as I needed or wanted.

• 1:43:29Speaker 02

  So, um, there are just things like, it's a constant learning thing. Nothing's perfect. We figure things out as we go. And, and like, we try to do our best and like, what is failure? I don't know. I mean, it's not that big of a deal, especially if there's some sort of positive takeaway that you have. And maybe my therapist would be really proud of me. Maybe it's really bad for me to even say that my therapist would be proud of me, but like, but like, but I do feel like all of these stories and all of these experiences really always come back to me as sort of paying attention to my feelings.

• 1:44:03Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, here, here. Uh, that's, that's something that I've also personally been, been working on because I think I've muted my feelings or viewed them as a liability for so long. And I've, I've realized, holy shit, you cannot spreadsheet your way out of everything.

• 1:44:18Speaker 02

  No, me too.

• 1:44:19Tim Ferriss?

  Nor into everything. Uh, you really have to pay attention to that.

• 1:44:22Speaker 02

  I mean, I came, I think about that all the time. Like I came from a culture that's like very much about sort of appearances and not very touchy feely in a lot of ways. I came from a family that wasn't super touchy feely. I came, so like, what did I learn to do? I learned to shut down all of my own feelings. And then I made myself, I made my way into a profession who literally tells you to shut down your feelings. Like when you're a cook in a restaurant, you don't have time or room or space for feelings. Like, and not only that, not only emotional feelings, but if you actually burn or cut yourself, there's not time or space to address that. You just sort of wrap your hand up and keep going. So there's this way where like I have, have, I have been trying to unravel

• 1:45:07Speaker 02

  the many years of sort of emotional shutdown that I have been conditioned.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  To be in. And so now I'm like, I'm gone, I'm like on way to the other end where I'm like, what is the, you know, I read about Jill Soloway's sets and she's the director and creator of Transparent. And I read about, or the other day I was listening to an interview with one of the actors from Atlanta. And I read about these TV sets where everyone's real touchy feeling like checks in with each other all the time. And like they have an emotional check in every morning. And, and I'm like, that's the kind of place where I want to work. Like, that's the kind, you know, I'm like, I just want to work where like the cameraman is like, and we are crying together, you know?

• 1:45:52Tim Ferriss?

  If you are, if, if you do have that experience, I want to have a follow up conversation to see if you're like, okay, that's my home. Or if you're like, you know what, pendulum swung too far the other direction. Like, I think I want somewhere in the middle. I can only have half the camera people crying. So you, you, you have tackled so many different projects in so many different ways. You've had some missteps. You've made your mistakes, as we all have. Your book was, I, at least from the outside looking in, I mean, a real flag in the ground that has allowed you to do a lot of things. And it's a very, very, it's

• 1:46:35Tim Ferriss?

  a very good book. Like I said, it's one of the few I keep in my kitchen. And I'd love to chat just a little bit about the genesis, because I think it was, what, let's say around 2006, when you slipped this note to Pauline. When did, when did your book come out?

• 1:46:54Speaker 02

  Twenty, last year. What's last year?

• 1:46:59Tim Ferriss?

  Last year, 2017. Okay.

• 1:47:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:01Tim Ferriss?

  And this is not a book that you churned out really quickly. You didn't just assemble another cookbook, which you and I both know are just everywhere. And, and it did make a mark. So I'm really curious to know, you're auditing this class with Michael Pollan, what are some of the early ideas for the book, or early titles for the book, that never saw the light of day?

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  So after I audited the class with Michael, he started writing a book about cooking, which ended up being cooked. So he asked me to teach him how to cook. So when I would come over to his house, we would cook together and talk about cooking. And I, every week, when I went over there, I'd bring over a different book idea.

• 1:47:56Speaker 02

  And there were so many bad ones, so many bad ones. Like, um, I can't remember all of them. I do remember there was one where I had this sort of mentee employee who was kind of like this, like bipolar gutter punk.

• 1:48:12Tim Ferriss?

  What is a gutter punk?

• 1:48:14Speaker 02

  A gutter punk is like, uh, well, we have a lot of them in Berkeley. Um, he, he was just this kind of punky kid who was like, had all the tattoos and, um, and listened to like, you know, like loud music. I don't know. Like he called himself a gutter punk. And so he, and he had a lot of like learning disabilities. And I had given up hope on him as an, I don't even know why we hired him. And eventually I just was like, I gave up such hope on him that I, I couldn't look at him for, I couldn't look him in the eye for months. And at some point, there was some moment that he had where he turned himself around and he came to work and suddenly, I think it had to do with taking honestly

• 1:48:55Speaker 02

  his, um, his mental health medication. And so, um, and so he just like became this incredible student. And, and I felt really bad for not having been a better supporter of his. But then I also became motivated to really teach him and support him. And this incredible moment was when he came to work one day and he was like, I don't want you guys to be mad at me, but I, you know, I've been going to like community college and I signed up for a study abroad program and I'm going to Italy. Like, and I was like, we are not mad at you. I was like, this is the most amazing thing that you like somehow went from basically being nearly homeless when you started coming here to caring about food so much that you like signed yourself up for community college, you got yourself to go to Italy. Like this

• 1:49:40Speaker 02

  is incredible and we're going to help you as much as we possibly can. So he was really this, I learned probably as much from him as he learned from me. And I was like, I'm going to write a memoir of teaching Robin how to cook. And Michael was like, that's a terrible idea. He was like, nobody wants to read. And then, and so then, you know, and then I had this other idea where I was gonna write the Tartine After Hours Cookbook, the like menu cookbook of all these dinners that I had made, that I was making in Tartine Bakery. And Michael was like, you know, that's fine, like, but I know you're thinking it's gonna be easy and no books are easy. And eventually he would sit down, yeah, he's just like, there's no such thing as an easy book. Yeah.

• 1:50:20Speaker 02

  And so, um, he said to me, he was like, I, I know, oh, he would interview me periodically so to get quotes for his book. And he said, what's the deal? You're so obsessed with these four elements. And I was like, oh, yeah, salt, fat, acid, heat, you know, that's the system that I used to teach myself to cook. I used to teach other people. I always thought I'd write a book about it one day. And he was like, well, there's your book. Write that. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. I was like, that book's gonna be really hard to write. It won't have beautiful photos because it's not about that kind of cooking. And it just, I, I can't do that. And he, he's, he just, I remember this so clearly. He said, listen, like, you live in a delusional universe where everyone who you know who's written

• 1:51:05Speaker 02

  a successful book is already a celebrity of some kind, either a celebrity chef or like some famous writer. And so you have this really confused notion that book and celebrity are somehow like tied together or notoriety or something. But really what publishers want is a unique and strong idea. And that's what this is. I've never heard this before. It makes so much sense. And so this is your book. And he's like, stop messing around and go do this. And I was like, great. And so I just felt the weight of this like huge task being set before me. And, um, and so, you know, and like I said, I didn't really have the tools in the beginning. I mean, I sort of knew what went to a book went into a book proposal. He sort of told me. But I also knew that this was, would look much

• 1:51:49Speaker 02

  different than any book proposal he had ever written. And so I just sort of started going to my office. I've got a, I got a writing residency and I went to go figure this out.

• 1:52:00Tim Ferriss?

  What is a writing residency?

• 1:52:03Speaker 02

  It's, it's just like, uh, it was like an opportunity to go write for two weeks uninterrupted in, in a beautiful setting and like be housed and fed. And, and that was maybe a mistake to go so early in my writing process because I wasn't really writing. I was still very much like idiating. So I just had like a wall of Post-it notes and then everyone else at the residency would come down to the dinner table and be like, I wrote 5,000 words today. And I'd be like, well, I like put seven.

• 1:52:30Tim Ferriss?

  I always want to slap those people. No, no offense if anyone listening is one of those people. They're like, oh, man. Had a pretty tough day. Only knocked out 5,000 words. And you're like, what? Like I barely figured out which font to use on the first page.

• 1:52:45Speaker 02

  I like laid in a hammock a lot and, um, and that first round, like anything I wrote during those two weeks, I was, that was definitely the time when I was attempting to be Michael Pollan. And so eventually I realized that wasn't working for me. And so then, and then I tried for a short while to be another writer. And then that wasn't working either. And then eventually I was like, oh, I just have to be myself.

• 1:53:06Tim Ferriss?

  Who, who is the other, if you don't mind?

• 1:53:08Speaker 02

  It's my friend, Tamar Adler, who's an incredible writer. She just has such a beautiful way of writing that I very much enjoy reading. But it's not me, you know? And so, and, um, and it's so good that I want it to be my words. But it's not my words. And so I had to, I had to just be okay with whatever comes out of my mouth. Or on, you know, onto my page is, is my thing. And I'm still learning that. Like there are so many times, even when I got this get column for the Times Magazine, which at the time when I started cooking was really like the highest sort of. I don't know, like writing that was coming out about food. It was, it to me, it was like the thing that I had always like dreamt of was to be able to write the food column for

• 1:53:52Speaker 02

  the Times Magazine. So I couldn't believe it when it finally became my job and I still can't really believe it. And I still have so much terror every time I sit down to write it where I'm like, this is going to be published in the New York Times Magazine. Oh my God, like, I'm not smart enough for this. And so I'm not good enough for this. And so then, and there's this way where sometimes I'll turn, I'll just be lazy and I can't figure out a different way to say something. So I'll write the silly, stupid way that I would say it. And that's the stuff the editors are always like, this is amazing. You're so good. And I, every time I'm like, oh, I thought that's what you were gonna cut. Like, there was this one time when I said something like, hello, my name is Samin. I basically wrote like, hi, my name is Samin and I'm an artisan bread hoarder, you know, which

• 1:54:34Speaker 02

  is such a silly, dumb thing to say. And she was like, this is amazing. And I was like, I don't. And so eventually I had to ask her, I said, why is it that you always like this really silly stuff that's not crafted, you know? And she said, because it's you and because like, you're here because we like your voice. And so the more true you can be to your own voice, the better that is. And I said, but isn't that like the cheesiest possible stuff? I figured you would cut all those like dumb jokes that I make. And she said, you know, maybe if it came from someone else, we would cut it. But when it comes from you, it sounds so true to what, how you would actually talk or what you would actually write, that we, it makes sense for us to keep it. And I said, it is how I actually talk. She said, yeah, so that's why we want it. So I'm still getting it through my head

• 1:55:18Speaker 02

  that the thing that people value about me is me, you know, not me trying to be a MacArthur genius or whatever, right?

• 1:55:26Tim Ferriss?

  And you mentioned, you mentioned earlier, how Michael said to you, something along the lines of publishers are looking for unique and clear ideas. And I just want to

• 1:55:41Tim Ferriss?

  Take that and expand it a bit because for people who are listening, I would also say that what any audience or potential audience, the people out there who are part of your tribe or who want the version of you that is the true you that you can put on the page, also want not just unique and clear ideas, but they want a unique and clear voice. And that I've had friends come to me who have incredible stories and are well spoken, but they say, "I'm not a writer. I can't write. I don't know if I could ever tell my story, although people tell me I should write a book. I should do this. I should do that." And that's a longer conversation. Like whether you should write a book or not is...

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

  Do you want to have the most miserable four years of your life?

• 1:56:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:23Speaker 02

  If the answer is yes, write a book.

• 1:56:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, right. Like if for whatever reason it exercises more demons than like years it pulls out of your life, then yes. But what I try to convey, and this was said to me actually, is that you don't need to be John McPhee. You don't need to be Michael Pollan. You don't need to be anyone who's writing you admire so much that intimidates you to actually be a good writer, if that makes any sense. Like if you have a unique and clear voice and you can consistently be you, then you've won more than half the battle. And so if you don't know how to use a semicolon, it's fine. Like not the most material problem.

• 1:57:05Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:57:06Tim Ferriss?

  And it's, I think you accomplish that really well in your book. And I would be curious to know, as someone who has dabbled in television a few times now, what did you find most rewarding and challenging about the television format? And why did you decide to say yes? Because you go from a relatively solitary queen of the castle environment when you're writing a book, right? Now granted, you have editors and so on, but it's kind of your gig, right? In a lot of ways, to, holy shit, who are all these people? What am I gonna do? Do I, how do I, am I supposed to interact with everybody? How do I? It's

• 1:57:51Tim Ferriss?

  a completely different environment. So why did you decide to do TV? And what were things that surprised you?

• 1:57:59Speaker 02

  Well, in terms of this like solitary versus social, I have always been both and which is why I continue to cook because I really enjoy both the manual like physical part of it, but also the really communal part of it where I get to go be in conversation and ask other people what they're cooking and eating and learn new things from other cooks. So I think I'd go bananas if I was only sitting at a desk all day, every day, you know, so I I enjoy having both things. So to me, the decision to go work on some collaboration that would bring me into, you know, work with a lot of people all the time, that really wasn't a negative thing at all. Hmm.

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  Um, and then, I don't know, you know, I was so excited, I um, I was so excited about the opportunity to bring this philosophy of cooking to a broad, broad audience, that that was ultimately the thing that I was seeking. And to me, I think after the first or second cooking class I ever taught, which I think was around 2006 or 2007, I remember coming to work one day with my friends, with these other chefs, and I said, you know, this is really inefficient. I was like, here I am, like, teaching 12 ladies, you know, 12 wealthy ladies, how to, I don't know, use the right amount of salt or whatever. Like,

• 1:59:24Speaker 02

  how many of these 12 person cooking classes am I gonna have to teach before I actually teach people, you know, a really, a broad audience, how this kind of fundamental and really life-changing information? It seems like it's gonna be hard to reach a large crowd, plus just the economics of it, that like, for my time and the ingredients and renting a kitchen or whatever, it wasn't inexpensive. You know, I had to charge a lot of money. And so that meant that it was already like naturally narrowing down the group of people to whom I could, you know, teach the stuff. So I came in to work one day and I was like, I think if I had a TV show, I think if I had a cooking show where I taught people how to cook, I could reach so many more people, I could do it so much more efficiently, and it would

• 2:00:09Speaker 02

  Really make a difference and being Berkeley, my two friends were like, that's a terrible idea. You are a terrible capitalist who, you know, has totally, totally like sold out because the idea, you know, they're, they're like in Berkeley, most people like don't have television. They don't let their kids watch television. So the idea that I could possibly want to do television was just like so sort of morally uncouth or whatever. And so that really sort of stung me at the time, but I now I recently remembered, I was like, oh, this has been something I've thought about and wanted for a long time. So when the opportunity to turn the book into a show presented itself, I was like, yes, this is amazing. I get to do something different. I think there's a lot of food TV out there. Um, there's sort of two types of it.

• 2:00:53Speaker 02

  There's like the really accessible sort of everyday cooking stuff that is generally shot in a studio with like not so great lighting. And is, is meant to be sort of like getting you to make some simple stuff at home. And then there's the really aspirational, like cinematic stuff like chef's table, which is not so much about cooking as it is sort of like a hagiography of a different chef. And it's really like aspirational and quite elite. And so I was really upset when I thought about it, that there was nothing that existed that was beautiful and cinematic, but also accessible. You know, why didn't something exist at the intersection of these two things?

• 2:01:33Speaker 02

  And so I knew that I wanted to make something gorgeous and, um, just inspiring and, but also be for everyone. And there were ways in which like, that was very easy for me to translate because I had already been distilling those ideas into the book and into the way I wanted the book to look and the vision I had for the way the book would be in the world and function in people's lives. And then there were entirely new things that I had to learn throughout the process of, um, because I've never made a show before. So one of the things that I like, looking back after having gone through both all of the pre-production and then 40 weeks of like production and post-production. I mean, I kept saying to people, they'd be like, when will you have time? I was like, imagine I'm pregnant.

• 2:02:17Speaker 02

  Forty weeks, like imagine I'm pregnant, call me when the baby's born. Cause like, that's how, how intense this thing is going to be. And so, um, they, the, one of the things that I did not anticipate, but realized pretty quickly that I was so good at and I really enjoyed doing was I For some weird reason, I don't know why, I have this like ability to ignore the cameras and just be me. Like, I don't change at all. And so, there's a way, people kept saying, oh, you're a natural, you're a natural. And so, I think that's what they were referring to, was that I'm the exact same on camera as I am off camera.

• 2:02:56Speaker 02

  And I had to learn, you know, some basic things like where to stand and what's light and where do I look and where do I not look? But, um.

• 2:03:05Tim Ferriss?

  One more, that was great. Perfect. One more for safety. You're like.

• 2:03:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. I mean, you almost do everything like fifty times. And I also, because I'm a perfectionist, would take it really personally at first. And I'd be like, oh, no, I did it wrong. I have to do it again. And pretty quickly, I realized, oh, we're doing it again, and it has nothing to do with me doing it right or wrong. It's because they need a different angle, or he messed some, the sound guy messed something, you know? There are just so many variables. So the way that like I can deliver the energy high every time. But, you know, and that was, that was stuff that I guess isn't something that everyone has. So I had that. So that was great. And then.

• 2:03:41Tim Ferriss?

  Can I pause for one second? Also, I think that, and this is pure speculation, but you've taught so much. I think that you, I think that you hone that ability also in the process of teaching. Uh, I, I just, I've seen that overlap, uh, for, for some folks. So, so I don't know how much of it is nature versus nurture, but.

• 2:04:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. I definitely think, for sure. And also, even just cooking itself, cooking is a repetition, right? Like, cooking is every day you come in and you do the thing again, whether you did it perfectly yesterday or really badly yesterday. And so, and there's, you just have to put your head down and do it again. And so, I, I feel like there were certain, like, I don't know, calluses that I had formed just from my other jobs that made, made me be like, ready to be good at this. But, um, it's funny that.

• 2:04:35Speaker 02

  There were so many things I didn't know because I'd never done it before and also nobody explained to me. And so there's, in retrospect, I'm like, because maybe I am a teacher who likes to put people at ease and explain things to them, throughout the process, there would be these things that I would learn, like distill and articulate. And then at the next day, the next shoot, the next time we were with someone else, I would be able to explain this because we were going around the world and bringing all sorts of different people onto the screen with us. And so, and almost none of them had ever been on camera before. And, you know, we show up with this crew of 25 people and all these trucks and all this equipment and lighting. It's so much stuff and it's so overwhelming for people. And especially in some of the places that we went where

• 2:05:17Speaker 02

  it was really off the beaten path, like very rural places in Japan and in Mexico. And so I kept trying to do, it's that beginner's mind thing where I'm like, okay, how do I put myself in this person's shoes and imagine what it feels like to have this whole like rodeo show up? You know, it's like a circus. And so, and what, what, what is that making you feel like? And when, you know, when it's not explained to these guys, oh, we're gonna have to do everything 17 times, but it's not because you did it wrong. You know, so the things that I learned along the way, I would say to everyone, like, don't worry, like, we have to do it a lot of times, but it has nothing to do with you. You're perfect. You're fine. Or just look at me, like, don't look at them. Or there's a lot of sort of talking in the background that you have to tune out. And a lot of the time, they're

• 2:06:01Speaker 02

  calling your name because they're talking to each other about focusing the camera on you. So I had to be like, just ignore, if you, if you hear your name, they're not talking to you, you know, because your natural human response is to turn to whoever's talking, you know, saying your name. So there are these like little things that I learned that made it easier for me. And then I, I took a great pleasure in being the guide for whoever we were sort of, because it's my job to put that person, that cook, that grandma I'm cooking with at ease, so that she can be her best self and we can get like the best footage from her. And It's, I don't know, it's that maternal thing or whatever. It's that teacher thing. And I realized that I was really good at that. And so I, I, I, yeah, and it was just nice to have

• 2:06:44Speaker 02

  an entirely new field, an entirely new skill to hone in terms of just like, what is it to be on camera? What is it to like, work with these different people? That part was really fun. I really, really enjoyed it.

• 2:06:56Tim Ferriss?

  I'm, I'm really excited for you and I'm also really excited for everybody to see this. I'm excited. Can you, just, just to look at the, the overall structure of the, of the show? How many episodes are there total?

• 2:07:11Speaker 02

  There's four episodes and each one's about like 50 ish minutes long. And it, it sort of matches the structure of the book. So there's salt, fat, acid and heat. And in each episode, we go to a different country to sort of explore the nuances of that element. But then through voiceover and storytelling and beautiful archival imagery. Like really our, our team who was digging up the archival did such a good job. We're able to connect everything back to some sort of a universal message of, you know, like I couldn't, we went to Japan for salt, but honestly, we could have gone to any country for salt. We went to Italy for fat. We could have gone anywhere for fat.

• 2:07:52Speaker 02

  So it's this way where like through the specific, I find a way to then connect it to the universal. And I do, I, I, my hope for the show and what I think from like early small feedbacks that I'm receiving is that what I wanted it to do was to give you a few little nuggets that you could like put in your pocket. And like same as the book, never have to return to the book, never have to return to the show, never have to like refer to me again. And that these are going to be the little things that change the way that you cook. And so from what I've heard is that people are doing it, like they're doing the stuff I told them to do, you know? And so if, if. You know, I think especially like where Netflix is concerned, there's so much beautiful,

• 2:08:36Speaker 02

  like food documentary and food this and even like food competitions on there. But I think this is the first show that is really sort of aimed to like get you cooking, you know?

• 2:08:47Tim Ferriss?

  I'm so excited. Yeah, I need a reboot. I've been, I have, I mean, I do enjoy cooking, but this, this I think is, is such a fun, culturally rich way to do it. So I want, let me ask you, as people are listening to this and they're, and they're getting excited to not only see these various locations and cultures and learn from you as you're pulling them into these stories, salt, fat, acid, heat. So I read somewhere, I think it was on thekitchen.com, that as one of your indulgences, and maybe you've changed, you can feel free to change, is a local olive oil, meaning local to you over on the west coast, from Katz Winery, and then there are a few other

• 2:09:32Tim Ferriss?

  things. Could you recommend people who want to just grab a few tools?

• 2:09:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:09:39Tim Ferriss?

  You know, there's no budget limit, but we're not going to be buying, you know, the latest and greatest, super expensive, you know, immersion circulator or something. But like something, are there a handful of things, maybe they overlap, like a nice salt, like some type of fat, acid, anything that you can think of that most home cooks may have neglected or, or not incorporated, that people can just run out and grab in preparation?

• 2:10:05Speaker 02

  Yes. Okay. Oh, this is exciting. Okay. For salt, I think that Malden salt, which is the British salt, the little pyramid flakes that comes in a little white box. That is now more readily available in grocery stores, but also you can buy it on Amazon. And I feel like that not only tastes amazing, but it has this incredible texture that you, you're just putting a little bit on top of cookies or even ice cream is amazing, but also any salad or tomato toast. I don't know, I have a huge jar of it that I just reach into all the time at home.

• 2:10:38Tim Ferriss?

  It's so good.

• 2:10:39Speaker 02

  It's so good. I think one thing that I learned about on the show that sort of blew my mind is that I really hope we'll we'll catch on after this show is how different and how far superior a good soy sauce is to regular soy sauce, like the regular everyday sort of Kiko Man.

• 2:10:58Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:10:58Speaker 02

  And and the way you know it's a good one is that it's been aged in a wooden barrel versus a stainless steel tank. So often it'll say like wooden wooden barrel aged or barrel aged on the thing. There's a brand, probably the brand that's easiest to come by in the States is called Nama Soyu.

• 2:11:15Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:11:16Speaker 02

  And again, you can buy that on Amazon. And so, but it's also like probably in like higher end stores. I've also seen it at Whole Foods and it's a little bit, it's like nine dollars versus two fifty, you know, but it's one of those things. The flavor is so much richer and so much deeper and like bounces off all of the sort of like angles of your mouth. It's amazing. It's so incredible. And so I would say that soy sauce is really special. Olive oil wise, yeah, I would say Katz Olive Oil is really delicious. And also there's another one that's local to here to us in California called Secca Hills, which is made on an Indian reservation. And so it's like amazing.

• 2:11:58Tim Ferriss?

  S E C A, like Dry Hills?

• 2:11:59Speaker 02

  S E S E K A.

• 2:12:01Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, S E K A.

• 2:12:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And those two are some two of the like nicest California olive oils. And Secca Hills is actually, I think relatively expensive inexpensive and you can buy it in bigger things. So that's kind of my everyday olive oil now. And then acid wise, I mean, I love a lime. It's my favorite. But if you're gonna buy, again, vinegar wise, I think a nice rice vinegar is really delicious. Like I'm just discovering how much more delicious.

• 2:12:33Speaker 02

  You know, I tried in my recipe testing, I try to cook with the everyday stuff that you can buy at any grocery store so that it my recipes are pretty accurate to like what anybody's gonna make anywhere in the country instead of like very specific niche ingredients. But sometimes, you know, when I'm making my own dinner at home, I just wanna have like the delicious rice vinegar. So that same brand, Nama Shoyu, they make a really delicious rice vinegar. That's just so fantastic. Um, and they're, yeah, so that's a really good one. And then heat is really, oh, here, this is a luxury. This is a little bit expensive, but it's the most amazing, the most amazing. The most amazing. So, so I would say like, you always wanna have a great pan.

• 2:13:16Speaker 02

  And so for me, I'm, I'm generally, I often say, just have a cast iron pan. It's the most used pan in my house is a cast iron. I bought at a flea market for like 25 bucks. But, um, if you wanna graduate up from a cast iron, there is a company in, I believe they're in Virginia. It's called Blank Creatives, B L A N C. They make these beautiful hand forged pans that are, um, they're steel, they're some sort of a cast steel. They're like, have this beautiful bluish tint. And they, this pan is unbelievable. My best friend gave me one for a gift a few years ago. And for whatever reason, I didn't start using it really regularly until recently.

• 2:13:59Speaker 02

  It blows my mind how good it is because it browns just like a cast iron pan. And, but it heats up, it's much lighter, it heats up a lot more quickly. And, um, and it, it just, it retains its heat. They're just a delight to use. These pans are a delight to use. I have no, I don't know how else to say it like. And it just, everything that comes out of it is so good.

• 2:14:22Tim Ferriss?

  Would you, do you cook everything or can you cook, for instance, if, would you cook eggs in this or would you have?

• 2:14:28Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And your eggs wouldn't stick. Nothing would like, because it's definitely has a seasoning that you have to, um, keep up, you know? And it will rust, it will rust even a little bit more easily. Like sometimes if I don't dry mine really well, out in the morning, there'll be a little rust forming, so I have to wipe. It away, but it's that seasoning that makes it so beautiful and perfectly nonstick. They're also just very gorgeous and look like a beautiful handmade object. And they're, you know, I think they're in the $200 range. But like a pan, I don't know, people buy the La Croisette pots for 300 bucks and they use them for 30 years. So I feel, I feel okay giving a one expensive pan.

• 2:15:05Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, for sure. And by seasoning, are you say like heating it up, putting salt in it and like kind of scratching the surface? Or is it really just letting it absorb the various oils and so on?

• 2:15:16Speaker 02

  It's just the, yeah, it's just the fat that it like, so I'm not so good with the science of metal and these pans and stuff. But I think that what happens is as you cook, or if you intentionally like rub it with some fat and then put it in the oven and let it get warm. The fats like turn into they, it's called, I think polymerization. And so the fats sort of almost like fill in the little, any holes that might be in the metal, like invisible minute holes. And then create a really smooth surface. And so that's smooth, the smoother that surface is, the more nonstick the thing will be. Which is why, you know, when you buy a cast iron that's not yet seasoned, if you even touch it with your fingers, you can feel that it's a little bit pebbly in there, you know, and that pebbliness is where things stick.

• 2:16:01Speaker 02

  Is it like that pebbliness is stick, sticking stuff and Teflon exists at the complete other end of the range where there's, it's like almost entirely smooth. So the smoother the thing is, the less sticking you'll have.

• 2:16:14Tim Ferriss?

  Here, here. Well, Samin, I think that this is, I think this is an exciting place to probably tie up. I encourage everybody to check out the book and the show, of course. They can find you on the interwebs at Instagram and Twitter, at Ciao Samin or Samin. I'm now, now. Yeah, I'm working on it. I'll just say Samin to keep it easy. But yeah, at Ciao Samin, C I A O Samin on Instagram, Twitter, on Facebook, forward slash Samin dot nosrat. And then salt fat acid heat dot com is where they can find information about the TV show as well on that at the.

• 2:16:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, show, everything will be on there.

• 2:17:01Tim Ferriss?

  And.

• 2:17:02Speaker 02

  Also all the wonderful people, I'm like writing profiles of all the people that we got to meet. So you can learn more about the people from the show when the, when the. Website launches, yeah.

• 2:17:13Tim Ferriss?

  And I will also link to everything we've talked about in the in the show notes as per usual for folks. So people listening, you can go to tim.blog/podcast for links to everything we've discussed, including the show, the products, the books, everything.

• 2:17:27Speaker 02

  And if I can find it, the email to Michael Pollan.

• 2:17:30Tim Ferriss?

  That's right. And if you can find it, the actual, the actual word sniffing that you used with Michael Pollan, I would love to see that. So I'll put that in the show notes if we can find it. Is there anything else that you would like to say or ask of people listening or suggest to people listening before we before we wrap up?

• 2:17:50Speaker 02

  Gosh, no. Happy cooking. Use more salt.

• 2:17:55Tim Ferriss?

  Use more salt. Don't forget the lime.

• 2:17:57Speaker 02

  Don't tell your feelings.

• 2:17:58Tim Ferriss?

  And don't forget your feelings. What a gift to spend time with you. Thank you so much. And

• 2:18:05Speaker 02

  Thanks so much. This was so like emotionally resonant and fun and just really beautiful. So thank you.

• 2:18:13Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, my pleasure entirely. This is maybe, maybe my therapy is doing this podcast.

• 2:18:18Speaker 02

  It sounds like it is. It sounds like it is.

• 2:18:21Tim Ferriss?

  Maybe that's my version of therapy. Well, once again, really appreciate you taking the time today. The show looks beautiful. I really hope people check it out. And to be continued. I hope we have many more conversations.

• 2:18:35Speaker 02

  Me too, Tim. Thank you.

• 2:18:37Tim Ferriss?

  And to everybody listening, as always, and until next time, thanks for tuning in.

• 2:18:45Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include Favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance, and it's very short.

• 2:19:28Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by FreshBooks. FreshBooks has become the go-to cloud accounting software for literally millions of small business owners who found a faster, more efficient, and much less stressful way to deal with their numbers. And ultimately, this helps you to focus on what you are best at. It is used by many of the fastest-growing startups I've invested in or advise, and it's equally used by many of the best freelancers I work with on a daily or weekly basis.

• 2:20:11Tim Ferriss?

  It is one of the easiest ways to send invoices, get paid, track your time, and track your clients. If you're self-employed and managing business sometimes means wrestling with spreadsheets, crumpled receipts, and other scattered pieces, FreshBooks can really help. FreshBooks allows you to do many, many different things very easily. Preparing and sending a polished branded invoice takes about 30 seconds. You can set yourself up to receive online payments from your clients in about two clicks, which on average will get you paid twice as fast. Their new Proposals feature means you can include a project summary and timeline as part of your estimate. There are many, many other things. Tracking your time, the quick proposals that I mentioned, formatting free, super easy, late payment reminders, so you don't have to chase people, automated expenses, sharing

• 2:20:53Tim Ferriss?

  files and messages with your clients, award-winning customer service. They are extremely responsive, the interface is super intuitive, and there's almost no learning curve. So, in short, it's easy, it saves you time, and right now, FreshBooks is offering an unrestricted 30-day free trial for all of my listeners. To claim yours, check it out, go to freshbooks.com/tim and enter Tim Ferriss in the "How Did You Hear About Us?" section, and that is funky spell, T-I-M-F-E-R-R-I-S-S. So again, go to freshbooks.com/tim and enter Tim Ferriss in the "How Did You Hear About Us?" section. Check it out. I get asked all the time, "If you could only use one supplement, what would it be?"

• 2:21:37Tim Ferriss?

  My answer is inevitably Athletic Greens. It is your all-in-one nutritional insurance. I recommended it in The 4-Hour Body, did not get paid for that, and I travel with it to avoid getting sick. I take it in the mornings to ensure optimal performance. It just covers all my bases, if I can't get what I need through whole-food meals throughout the rest of the day. If you want to give Athletic Greens a try, they are offering a free 20-count travel pack for first-time users. I always travel with at least three or four of these. This represents a $100 value, so if you buy Athletic Greens, you get an extra $100 in free product. So check it out, athleticgreens.com/tim. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/tim for your free travel pack with any purchase.