Eat Plants Not Animals: James Aspey Is Defending The Voiceless

Why do we love dogs, eat pigs and wear cows? Dr. Melanie Joy coined this phenomenon speciesism. James Aspey calls it what it is — just plain wrong. Motivated to raise greater awareness for the planet's voiceless victims, in 2014 this passionate, young, Australian animal rights activist took a 365-day vow of silence. After an entire year without uttering a single word, he ended it on Australian national television with an interview that inspired millions to make more conscious and compassionate lifestyle choices and cemented him as a charismatic new force in the fight for the ethical treatment of animals. Ranked #3 among the “Top 25 Most Influential Vegans” by Plant Based News, James has gone on to cycle 5000kms across Australia to prove that vegans can be fit & healthy. He got tattooed for 25 hours straight to raise $20,000 for charity. He's been featured in a multitude of prominent mainstream media outlets; given free speeches at countless schools, universities, and conferences; and attended local activism events, slaughterhouse vigils, and street outreach events all across the world. He transparently shares his life and campaigns online to a massive tribe of global followers. On YouTube, his speeches have reached tens of millions of people. And his most popular speech has been viewed over 12 million views. Enthusiastic, accessible and highly skilled behind a podium, James is inspiring a new generation to change how we eat and live in communion with the animals that share this home we call Earth. But there's so much more to this young man's life than meets the eye. At 17, James was diagnosed with leukemia and told he only had 6 weeks to live. He beat the cancer only to slide into a life of drugs and alcohol punctuated by a profound eating disorder. Then a chance encounter with an Indian man would forever change the trajectory of James' life. Today I'm proud to help this passionate defender of the voiceless share his powerful story. But first, a caveat. I'm not unaware that a contingent of you shut down when the subject turns to animal welfare. I know, because I used to be that person. I didn’t start out inherently compassionate about these issues. My shift to a plant-based lifestyle was initially motivated purely for personal health reasons. In fact it was years before I became sensitive to the horrific and inexcusable manner in which we treat our animal friends. But it's an issue I now care deeply about. And it's an issue we simply can no longer ignore or tolerate. Ghandi once famously said, “The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” History will not look fondly upon our track record. And I, for one, want to be on the right side of history. So for those who think this episode just isn't for you, I urge you to set aside any judgment, projection or pre-conceived ideas you may have about James or this subject matter. Trust me. And open your heart. Because to move forward, we cannot continue to turn a blind eye. I really dig this conversation. I hope you do too. More importantly, I hope it inspires you to take positive action for change — both personal and global. To view our conversation on YouTube, visit bit.ly/jamesaspey423. And don't forget we're also now on Spotify here. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  When you make the connection, which is that if there's no need to kill any animals to survive, which is what we learn, that there's not, and we can get every essential nutrient we need through a plant-based diet, then it's so blatantly obvious that all the violence we inflict mercilessly in such a brutal way to billions of sentient beings every day, it's so glaringly obvious that it's wrong. But the day before that happened, the day before you realized that, it was just totally normal. You thought it was natural, necessary. And so, yeah, it is actually a really big switch that flicks when people get it. You know, we love dogs, we love dolphins, we love whales, but we think nothing of killing

• 1:48Speaker 01

  and eating pigs, cows, chickens, fish, and all the others. And it's not because those animals are less intelligent, or have less value, or feel pain less, or don't have a heart, or don't have a brain, or something like that. It is simply because they're the ones we've chosen, and they're the ones that we like the taste of.

• 2:07Rich Roll?

  That's James Aspey, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:24Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody. How are you guys doing? What's happening? This is Rich Roll. I'm your host. Welcome or welcome back to the show, to the podcast, where I go deep, I go long with the most inspiring change makers I can find. Paradigm breakers, people who are working double time to make this world a better place for all of us. On that theme, and because today's show definitely bends plant-based in a big way, I just thought it was appropriate and worthwhile to mention that if you're looking to, or if today's guest inspires you to give the vegan lifestyle a spin, or if you're

• 3:04Rich Roll?

  simply looking to dial up the nutritional quality of your daily three squares, I cannot recommend more highly our Plant Power Meal Planner, which we specifically designed to solve all the common problems that people face when they try to scale up their diet. All you gotta do is go to meals.richroll.com and there you will find thousands of plant-based recipes, access to literally thousands of recipes that are customized based on your personal preferences. You have all these inputs when you sign up that help us figure out exactly what your needs are, how many people you're cooking for, what your budget is, foods you like, you don't like, allergies, et cetera. Plus, we have unlimited grocery

• 3:46Rich Roll?

  list. We have grocery delivery in most US cities with international delivery rolling out soon. And all of this is available to you for just $1.90 a week when you sign up for a year. So to learn more and to enroll, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu on my website. Okay, so today I sit down with James Aspey. And James is a very interesting, passionate, and enterprising young man, a young Australian animal rights activist, who in many ways, or I should say, at least in my mind, is

• 4:27Rich Roll?

  Guy that in certain respects represents a new, modern face of the vegan movement. I first came across James at the tail end of his one-year vow of silence. He undertook this one-year vow of silence, 365 days without speaking, to protest, to raise awareness around the suffering of animals. And I've watched him from afar ever since that moment with keen interest. I've watched as his profile has grown, his message has expanded. And I'm pretty excited to finally share his message with all of you here today, which I think you guys are going to find not only powerful, his backstory alone is quite compelling and worth hearing, but also very inclusive.

• 5:11Rich Roll?

  So for those of you who tune out when you hear the phrase or the term animal rights, for those of you who think that this episode, hey, maybe this isn't for me, please, I urge you to set aside any judgment, any preconceived ideas about who you think James is or what he has to offer. And please listen with an open heart and an open mind. A couple more thoughts I want to share about my forthcoming conversation with James. But first.

• 5:49Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 5:51Rich Roll?

  I want to say this. I didn't start out as someone inherently compassionate about animal welfare. I made my plant-based diet and lifestyle shift purely for personal health reasons initially. And it was years before I found myself opening up to or sensitive to, and ultimately very moved by the environmental considerations of the food choices we make and the plight faced by animals, particularly factory-farmed animals. It's an issue I now care quite a bit about, but this was not always the case. So if you're listening and thinking, this one, James Aspey, it's not for me. I get it. I'm sensitive to this. But again, I nonetheless urge you, please give it a listen.

• 6:36Rich Roll?

  Not only is James super smart, he's down to earth, he's refreshingly straightforward. His energy is really infectious. And aside from his passionate advocacy. He has this incredible backstory, including how he overcame leukemia, being told he only had six weeks to live when he was only 17, a condition he survived only to later descend into a life of drugs and eating disorder, binging and purging multiple times a day until he finally gets clean and hence begins this, this new chapter. He discovers veganism.

• 7:14Rich Roll?

  He goes on this 365 day vow of silence to raise awareness for animals that, that ended in an interview on Australia's biggest morning TV show and was watched by literally millions of people across the world. Since then, James has given hundreds of free speeches at schools, universities, and conferences all around the world. He's got a giant social media presence and has been featured on a variety of prominent print television and radio, global, mainstream media outlets. I think you get the picture. I think I've said enough. I really dug talking to James. I really like this guy. I hope you do as well. So let's just get into it.

• 7:58Rich Roll?

  Well, great to have you here. As we were chatting a little bit before the podcast, this one, I think this is like two years in the making. We went back and forth and then something, I don't know. I'm sure it's my fault, scheduling, whatever. But you're here. I saw you were in like Adelaide the other day. And when I emailed you to follow up, I was like, wait, are we still on? What's happening? And you're like, yeah, we'll be here. So you must be pretty jet lagged.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I'm feeling all right. We got, we always do this trick on the planes where we get on dead last so that you know where everyone's sitting and then you can just choose all the seats that are free. And we both got three seats to ourselves on the way. So we've got plenty of sleep.

• 8:36Rich Roll?

  That's a good, that's a good little trick.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Oh, it's the best one.

• 8:40Rich Roll?

  Because if it's empty.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  It works every time, man. Every time.

• 8:42Rich Roll?

  But no overhead bin storage, probably.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  No, no, no. But you've got three spots where your feet would usually go. So you make it work.

• 8:49Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Well, you've been on this extended global tour for a while now. Like, do you even have a home? Like, you just seem to be completely nomadic.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  That's exactly how it is. Yeah, it's my fifth year now.

• 9:01Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Almost my, almost five, four years and. It's been, I've been all over the place. I haven't been anywhere long, even probably longer than a month. So it's been full on man, living out of a bag and, you know, couch hopping and seeing the world and also, yeah, just rounding up activists and seeing what's happening in different areas. And yeah, it's been a really, really awesome trip.

• 9:27Rich Roll?

  That's wild, man. So you don't, you don't pay rent anywhere?

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Nah, I don't man, occasionally, but yeah, for the most part, no, we're just out of the bag and going from A to B to C to D to E to F to G.

• 9:38Rich Roll?

  A human citizen of the planet.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I always say, citizen of the earth.

• 9:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So what, uh, what brought you to LA?

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Uh, LA, well, I wanted to do this podcast with you and there's a couple of vigils we're doing, which is when we bear witness at the slaughterhouses.

• 9:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  I've got another podcast to do with Laura Cleary and, uh, what else is happening? Actually got no speeches here, but we're going from here to New York to do a few speeches at some universities and also catch one of Tony Robbins seminars.

• 10:06Rich Roll?

  Oh, cool.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's gonna be fun. Someone bought me a ticket and then I actually, uh, the, one of his people messaged me and said, yeah, if you need any help or hand in anything, let me know. And I said, well, actually, my girlfriend would love to come. What do I do about getting a ticket? And she said, well, actually, you turned me vegan, so let me see what I can do. And she hooked up Carly a ticket as well.

• 10:25Rich Roll?

  That's pretty cool. Well, I, I would imagine that's been your experience for a while now. I mean, you've really, uh, kind of existed on the generosity of a lot of people that, that support you and allow you to, you know, spread the message and do what you do.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely, man. It's been, yeah, it's been good to give and to receive as well. I've done all my speeches for free, which is hundreds of speeches now. As I've traveled, I've never charged for my time. And I think a lot of people have appreciated that and, you know, wanted to do their part. And a lot of the time it's just put me up and give me some vegan meals, keep me happy. And, um, man, yeah, it's been, you know, such a great community and there's so many people out there who, you know, can't do what I'm doing or what other activists are doing. And, you know, they're tied down for whatever reason. So it gives them an opportunity to give back as well.

• 11:16Rich Roll?

  So you've never charged for a speech?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  I think I've charged for one speech when I was at a festival where I knew it was pretty much all vegans. And I was like, well, if you guys are gonna make a bunch of money for me doing this speech, then I might as well, you know, make a little bit of money for doing a speech too.

• 11:32Rich Roll?

  I mean, a lot of those events are like that. They're charging admission. They're making money. It's okay to have, you know, some kind of honorarium to do that.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I've done it once, man. And apart from that, um, yeah, it's been all free, man. Especially, you know, when it's a, when it's an audience that hasn't really heard the message I'm trying to share, then I'm more than happy to do it for free. And I'll pay out of my own pocket to get there and things like that as well.

• 11:54Rich Roll?

  That's cool. So Tony Robbins, that's gonna be great.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  It's gonna be huge.

• 11:57Rich Roll?

  I had, uh, I had Guru Singh in here recently, and he just texted me the other day from Dubai. He was doing some Tony Robbins event, like Tony brings him out to, I don't know, spread his spiritual

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 12:11Rich Roll?

  uh, love to everybody, which is pretty cool. So maybe Guru Singh will be part of that, too.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  I hope so, man.

• 12:17Rich Roll?

  It'd be cool. So, um, let's break it down, man. You've got, uh, you've got a crazy, super interesting story and path that brought you to this place. And I think when I think of you, I mean, I first was introduced to you and, and the work that you do by way of the Year of Silence, which we're gonna get into. Um, I saw that piece on Australian Morning TV that kind of went crazy viral. Uh, and I've been following you ever since. And, and when I think about not just what you do, but how you do what you do, um, I see you as this, um, of course inspirational, uh, and also very impactful

• 12:57Rich Roll?

  advocate for this lifestyle that we share, but also as, um, a leader in this new generation of activists and plant-based people who are carrying the message in a different way from their forebears. Like, you're doing it in a very positive, enthusiastic way that, that encourages Participation and it's aspirational and you you paint this portrait of what this lifestyle is like in a very optimistic, engaging way that I think is really effective in making people excited about making this switch and living this lifestyle. When I look at you, I think of people like, you know, like Simon Hill, who we just talked about

• 13:41Rich Roll?

  in his Plant Proof podcast, people like Nima Delgado, like young people who are in this for the right reasons and are really making an impact with people much younger than me. So, super cool.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Thanks, man. I think that the people that came before us, they didn't have social media, for example, and that is a really great way of getting feedback. So I wasn't always doing it from this loving, positive, compassionate place. I was being more of a hard ass about it and a bit more forceful about it and a bit more blame and shame about it, trying to get people to adopt the vegan lifestyle, because that's what I'd seen happen in the past and I had seen some success with that with certain activists. But what I found through trial and error and feedback through social media was that actually being compassionate and encouraging and educational and, you know, trying to get people on board

• 14:34Speaker 01

  through the path of love and reaching people's hearts, that was actually far more effective.

• 14:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I find that, and I'm interested in your perspective on this, I find that at times, the vegan movement has a tendency to cannibalize itself.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Vegans are definitely our own worst enemies.

• 14:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Like, I had an experience the other day that that really upset me where every year or the last couple of years, I've used my birthday to raise money for charity water, to build wells in communities throughout Africa where these villages have never had access to clean water, which of course leads to all these diseases. And for $10,000, you can build a well that will serve generations to come. It's like a super efficient way to have a huge impact on a large number of people.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 15:25Rich Roll?

  And I sent out an email blast saying, hey, my 52nd birthday, I'm trying to raise this much money, consider a contribution. And I got a really snarky Uh, response back from some vegan person who shamed me and told me that, you know, why am I supporting these people that don't care about the animals? And are just, you know, using all this plastic and duh duh duh. And like, you know, trying to make me feel bad, like I'm putting, I'm placing my efforts and my advocacy in the wrong place. And, and I thought, this is why people find vegans unpalatable. Like, why are you raining on somebody who's trying to do something positive?

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Happens all the time, man. Two things happen, I've noticed, when you go vegan. One is that you lose all your social skills. It's like you forget how to talk to people, you know? And people just come with this anger and frustration. And it's understandable, but definitely doesn't get you very far. In fact, it can just push people further in the wrong direction. And the second thing that happens is that people forget that they were ever not vegan. So as soon as the day comes when somebody decides to go vegan, then it's like they always have been and everyone who's not is a monster. And yeah, it's just this weird thing that happens. But I think what happens is that when, when you make the connection, as we say in the community, when you make the connection, which is that if there's no need to kill any animals to survive, which is what we learn, that there's not,

• 16:49Speaker 01

  and we can get every essential nutrient we need through a plant-based diet, then it's so blatantly obvious that all the violence we inflict mercilessly in such a brutal way to billions of sentient beings every day. It's so glaringly obvious that it's wrong. But the day before that happened, the day before you realized that, it was just totally normal. You thought it was natural, necessary. And so, yeah, it is actually a really big switch that flicks when people get it. And so that's why there's all this frustration. But that's one part of it. The other part of it is just what you were talking about, that everyone thinks that there's only one way up the mountain, and it's my way or no way. And yeah, it's a big problem actually.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  But I think the best thing to do is just know that if you're, if you're getting the feedback that you want, which is that people are being inspired by your work and making changes. Then forget about all those other people who are saying all that crap because you know that you're being effective and you've just got to keep moving forward and rise above all that.

• 17:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I would, I would couch that by saying that um all voices are important and I think that that super hardcore perspective um serves a purpose, which is it reminds us where that line is and as much as it was upsetting to get that email from that person, I have compassion for that person's sensitivity and their point of view and it works as a reminder to tell me like, hey, you know, this is important and let me be more mindful of the choices that I make.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 18:21Rich Roll?

  Um, I think ultimately the, the, the manner in which you communicate is more effective in terms of really penetrating the hearts and minds of people, but I think that super hardcore perspective um sets the tone, you know, I think. So it's like you can have Gary Francion who has like a zero tolerance policy.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  To anyone.

• 18:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and it's like, okay, well, that, that, there's the line, like, he's telling us this is where the line is.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:48Rich Roll?

  And then we all have to find our own way of, of communicating in a way that feels right for us and I think every voice finds its audience in a certain way and it's all good.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  It is all good, man. Exactly. You're spreading the message, you're gonna reach people and I'll reach people that Francion doesn't and he'll reach people that I don't, but as long as we're all doing our part, then the weight of this enormous atrocity is shared between us all and that makes it a lot easier to keep going.

• 19:15Rich Roll?

  Right, well, let's track it, cause you came into this uh from a very uh interesting experience that you had. So you grew up, tell me about what it was like growing up Australia.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  It was cool. Yeah, it was good. I did a lot of skateboarding and I um did a lot of karate. I got my blackboard in karate when I was quite young.

• 19:32Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then.

• 19:34Rich Roll?

  I can see the skateboarding thing.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I, I didn't get into surfing until much later, actually, but now I'm, I'm actually really a huge fan of surfing.

• 19:42Rich Roll?

  Where in Australia?

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Sydney, South Sydney, yeah, a place called Ingedine. And yeah, I had just, just a, just a pretty typical, you know, childhood, man, um for someone living in the burbs kind of thing. And when I was seventeen, I was diagnosed with leukemia and lymphoma, given six weeks to live unless I started treatment immediately. And I felt totally fine. I was in the hospital room doing chin ups. Like, are you guys sure about this? I feel really good. I just had some lumps, like a lump under my neck that turned into about thirteen golf ball sized lumps.

• 20:12Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Also under my arms, in my groin. And turns out that pretty much all of my lymph nodes, like a couple of hundred of them were inflamed in my body.

• 20:20Rich Roll?

  At seventeen?

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so.

• 20:23Rich Roll?

  Non Hodgkin's or what kind of lymphoma?

• 20:26Speaker 01

  It was T cell lymphoma, acute lymphoblastic leukemia and T cell lymphoma. Supposed to be real deadly. They gave me, yeah, really.

• 20:33Rich Roll?

  Six weeks to live.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Six weeks to live, um, and a pretty small percentage chance of actually getting through all the chemo, cause they really dosed me up, man. So I, you know, I was fine for a little while. Um, I had some bad reactions to some of the meds they were giving me. By about a month in, um, I was starting to, you know, feel the brunt of it. I hadn't barely moved in a month. I was stuck in my hospital room. Everyone was just coming and visiting me like, whoa, I can't believe this is happening. And I kind of just, my first reaction was, nah, this isn't the end, man. You'll be fine. And I think just having a default positive attitude probably went a long way. Um, I was young, I was kind of probably naive as well.

• 21:12Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  But yeah, I ended up suffering a lot. I got some really painful reactions to some of the chemotherapy drugs, which felt like, you know, I woke up one morning, I went to bed fine. I woke up the next day, felt like I'd been beaten with a baseball bat on my legs. Every thirty seconds or so, it was like a knife was being dragged up my spine and took about six shots of morphine before I was feeling any relief. So yeah, I was really hurting, man. I put on about thirty five kilos, no, sorry, it was about twenty five kilos in, um, about, well, a very short amount of time, so fast that I have stretch marks that appeared and they actually ripped, my skin ripped and it bled. With this fourth.

• 21:50Rich Roll?

  Is that just from inflammation? Cause it's not usually people become, you know, they, they lose a lot of weight on chemotherapy.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  They put me on a huge dose of steroids and all I wanted to do was eat. I couldn't stop eating. And that actually triggered a lot of other problems that came further down the line. But basically I was not sleeping. About twenty two hours a day I was awake and I was trying to eat as much of that as I could, cause I had this insatiable appetite, which considering it now, probably also was just an emotional eating thing. And that's where I think that started for me. Uh, I had nothing else to do, man. I was stuck in my hospital rooms before. A lot of cool technology, you know, so. So full, like just traditional protocol for treating. Totally. Had no idea there were other options, man. So I went straight in like that. And. How long did that go on for?

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Well, I had six months intensive and then I had another two and a half years of once a week maintenance. Wow. Which still slammed me around every week. Um, probably didn't help that I was doing a ton of drugs throughout that as well. Um, the maintenance stuff, but I just thought, you know, I could die any day. So I just wanna enjoy myself. I was seventeen. I wanted to party. And um, yeah, so basically I had six months intensive in that time. I put on a lot of weight. I just. My whole, how I looked totally changed. I had a rash over my whole body. My hair had fallen out. I had all this weight. I looked like a ghost and. Um, yeah, some scars. I had tubes coming out of me, you know, the central line that was in my chest got infected with pneumonia. So for a few days there, I, you know, I was almost on, I was pretty much on death's door there.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  They, they said if I'd have stopped at one more traffic light, I probably would have died. I really couldn't breathe at that time. It was. On the way to the hospital for the first time, you mean? Well, no, like for the next days as well in hospital. I was just hooked up to this, to the oxygen and. Just every breath was a struggle. And if I lost my rhythm with a little bit of a cough or something, then I was freaking out, man. And they didn't want to take me to ICU because just even that trip down was a risky move. So. Yeah, it was gnarly. It was a gnarly experience of suffering and I'm really glad I had it actually. You know, it took a while to recover. But I fully recovered and I'm at a point now where I think that really helped me.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Uh, appreciate what suffering is, even though comparatively to so many humans and non-humans as well, it's, it's a. You know, just a taste of it. Really, I'm actually very lucky. But, you know, before that, I really hadn't suffered at all. And I think. That's an experience that a lot of us can relate to that we we don't suffer that much, you know, we sprained an ankle or maybe we we hurt ourselves this way or that way. And some of us obviously worse than others, but I think a lot of people really miss that miss out on that experience of of truly, you know, fearing for your life and suffering.

• 24:41Rich Roll?

  Well, pain can be quite the teacher. If you can channel it in the right direction. And we live our lives in a culture that teaches us to avoid that at all costs and that we should seek luxury and convenience and all the modern, you know, amenities of what it means to live in the developed world. And the truth is, at least for me, my personal experience is that I feel most alive when I place myself in difficult situations that cause some level of self-induced pain or suffering, you know?

• 25:15Speaker 01

  You know all about it. And I think, you know, there's that saying that growth only happens when you step outside of your comfort zone. Whether you step outside or whether you're forced outside, but you're guaranteed to grow if you stay out there long enough and you start becoming comfortable with what was once uncomfortable and that's where the growth happens.

• 25:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's why you hear in recovery addicts and alcoholics who say that they're a grateful alcoholic or a grateful addict because it has taught them so much and provided them with a new toolbox and roadmap for how to live that they perhaps would have never stumbled upon or discovered had they not suffered from this condition.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah, there's always the good to finding the bad, you know, and that's that's the practice.

• 25:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so the survival rate for this, pretty low, right?

• 26:04Speaker 01

  It was low, yeah, I think maybe it's probably a bit better now, that was a while ago, now that was maybe 14 years ago.

• 26:09Rich Roll?

  And cancer-free ever since?

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Yep, no drama since then.

• 26:12Rich Roll?

  Do you still have to go in and make sure, is there a chance that it could?

• 26:16Speaker 01

  I think I'm supposed to.

• 26:17Rich Roll?

  You haven't?

• 26:18Speaker 01

  I just am too confident in my health these days. Yeah, so no, I I don't bother anymore, it's been a while now. You know, a lot of cancers, they say in 10 years, if you if you haven't relapsed, then you're cured. With mine, they just said every year that you don't, there's less chance that you will.

• 26:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  But personally, I feel like, you know, I feel like.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe, maybe I created my own cancer with some negative thought patterns from my childhood and, you know, after dealing with that, that's why I kind of believe that it won't come back, man. And that might be totally just in my head, but that's just something I have a feeling about.

• 26:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, people get, um, people get defensive when you start talking about cancer in those terms.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've noticed that myself. And, you know, speculation and there could have been a lot of other factors and there probably was, but I think that, you know, your, your headspace, your mind frame matters so much and our thoughts create some of the experiences we have. And if you have really negative thoughts, that that's creating, you know, the stress hormones in your body and other probably toxins and things like that that are gonna affect you negatively. And if it's really bad, I don't think it's far fetched to say that potentially that kind of negative thinking can affect your body in a way that can let cancer cells start to duplicate.

• 27:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course. I mean, we like to think that our brain exists separate from our body, but of course that's not the case. And if there's anything that I've learned over the course of, of hosting this podcast, it is that these things are one in the same. And if we're not treating the mind in the way that we're treating the body, we're missing an opportunity to be healthy in the most holistic sense. These two things inform each other, they influence each other. And I think if somebody was to say that your mindset has no impact on whether your body is susceptible to disease on, in, in whatever form, I think that that is myopic at best.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Hmm, absolutely.

• 28:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But you seem like you were a positive kid, right? And you weren't, you weren't born and bred vegan. Like you're, you're living a typical Sydney suburban active skater karate kid lifestyle, right? I mean, what were you eating at that time growing up?

• 28:39Speaker 01

  As much meat as I could. Every meal, every, I'd wake up in the mornings and have steak for breakfast. My favorite meal was ribs or lamb chops. And basically, I didn't think that a meal was a meal unless there was meat on it. So I was, I was one of the biggest meat eaters out of everyone I knew. I was turning vegetarians back on to meat as a personal trainer in my personal training career, which I did for eight years. And I just didn't think it was possible to be healthy without it. So also, I thought, why would you live without it? Animals don't matter. And I never, I never understood animals. I didn't like animals. I had a couple of dogs growing up. I didn't spend barely any time with them. I just really didn't like them. And I not, not, not like them, but just didn't see any value in them. I was very

• 29:22Speaker 01

  much under the impression that they had, they were nothing like us. Other animals were nothing like humans and that, you know, they were barely worth considering because I thought that they couldn't care about their own lives. They didn't have that capacity. So why would I care about their lives? It didn't, it wasn't logical in my mind. I was just extremely misinformed about who we're sharing this planet with.

• 29:53Rich Roll?

  Well, walk me through that shift in your perspective and mindset.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Okay, well, that was the way it was until I was about twenty six.

• 30:02Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So you become seventeen, you're sick. By the time you're like twenty, you're on the mend.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Um, well, I, yeah, something like that. I was on the mend before I was twenty, like about probably nineteen or so, when I was starting to feel like, okay, yeah, I'm coming out of this now. Um, in that time, I'd become a personal trainer. I did my course at college and started working in a gym while I was still on chemo. But I think that was kind of inspirational for my clients at the time, you know, even though it wasn't the perfect picture of health I was working on it. And yeah, for, for the next seven or so years, I was a personal trainer. I was also partying heaps and I also got a really pretty bad, I mean, I don't know comparatively, I guess I haven't spoke to that many people with a similar problem, but I got, I was really battling with an eating disorder with bulimia.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  And I think, like I mentioned a minute ago, that started from my emotional eating in hospital. And I didn't understand that I was an emotional eater. So I was, you know, there was, there was no way to satisfy the craving I had because the craving I had wasn't for more food. It was because I just didn't know how to sit with these uncomfortable feelings.

• 31:12Rich Roll?

  The craving is spiritual.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Totally, exactly.

• 31:15Rich Roll?

  Uh, I mean, it's something that I've walked through and experienced and, and I think it's important to talk about because. I think that there's a lot of guys out there who fall on that spectrum of emotional eating, whether it's periodic or whether it becomes full-blown anorexia or bulimia. I think there's a lot of guys out there that suffer silently and we don't talk enough about how this impacts dudes.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 31:44Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:46Rich Roll?

  And I think when we're in there and now in this Instagram culture, you know, in the fitness space, I would have to imagine that the rates of this have been, are escalating.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you're probably right. I think for me, it was a little different than maybe, you know, it wasn't a body thing necessarily for me. It was truly, I was eating, eating my way to feel good. Not so much, oh, I need to lose weight. Okay, I'll eat all this food and then I'll vomit it back up.

• 32:15Rich Roll?

  And in, sorry to interrupt, but in retrospect now, with some perspective, what do you think the, the wound was that you were treating?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  It was, it was an addiction to binge eating. And then, so I was, I would binge eat. I'd eat, eat, eat, eat, eat, trying to feel good from eating more of the food that made me feel good, like ice cream and chocolate and things like that. So I'd eat these foods that would give you that, that high kind of thing, but as soon as you'd take your last mouthful, the high would start to fade. So you just keep eating, keep eating. And then one time I did that to the point where I felt so sick and I thought, I can't keep this down. I need to just spew this up. And I did do that and I felt better and I thought, oh, I found the hack. And so that's what I started doing. I'd binge until I needed to spew and then I would vomit and then I would binge again. And it was horrible, man.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  I've never felt so out of control in my life. It was the hardest battle I've had and I've, I've had a few. And, um, I was really, you know, I was really struggling with this for a long time. I thought there was no way out. I didn't know what to do. Uh, I was sometimes binging and purging, you know, half a dozen or maybe even more times a day.

• 33:29Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I just had no idea how to get out of it, man. And I was a personal trainer at the time, trying to teach people how to be, eat healthy and be well. And I felt like I had answers, but then I looked at myself in the mirror. I thought you mustn't have the answers. So I felt like such an impostor.

• 33:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  And it was, it was hard to deal with, man. And then.

• 33:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that creates a lot of shame. It kind of closes you off from everybody.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  And I'm, I'm eating this food, like binging, thinking, man, this kid's starving to death and I'm, I'm doing this to food. Like, what are you doing? But I, I didn't understand that it was emotional.

• 34:01Rich Roll?

  And so what were the emotions that you were treating? Like, that's what I want to get at. Like, what, what, what was the source of this?

• 34:06Speaker 01

  It was, it was really just a lack of ever really looking inside, you know, going inside myself and observing and just, I just didn't want to feel uncomfortable. I was sick of feeling uncomfortable. I had been doing a lot of drugs for many years. I was always chasing the highs, always chasing the feel good. And so I guess what happened was I, um, you know, I, I went on this cruise ship to work after, um, you know, to be a personal trainer. So I'd been doing that for about seven years or so. I get on this cruise ship and for that year I didn't do any drugs, which was the first year that I hadn't done any, I'd mixed it around. I'm not going to do ecstasy anymore. I'm just going to do mushrooms. I'm not going to do mushrooms anymore. I'm going to do acid and I mixed it up a bit.

• 34:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  I'm like, I'm coming out of this, you know? But I just was switching it around, just, you know, um, you know, trying to.

• 34:53Rich Roll?

  I tried that.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:54Rich Roll?

  Didn't work so good.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't, it wasn't exactly the path out. It was more of the path of the circle. And I just kept going around.

• 35:00Rich Roll?

  But you kind of have to do that to realize how out of control it is.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Totally. And, you know, like, I, I definitely, you know, there was a time when it was really bad. Like, I ended up in, I got locked up in a padded cell and a few days later a psych ward and I had a drug-induced psychosis for about six months.

• 35:15Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  It was gnarly, really, really, I mean, man, some of the stories out of that are just crazy, but. When I came out of all that, you know, the drug used to get a lot better. I stopped smoking weed and um I limited it quite a bit comparatively to how I'd been. When I get on this cruise ship, so the week before I go to the cruise ship, I did a week worth of mushrooms in Bali. Cause I heard that they don't show up in your drug tests. They just show up as food poisoning. So I thought, oh, that's a good. That's a good way to get around. I'll get a bunch in for a week and then I'll go to the training in London to get on this cruise ship. They drug test you there, it won't show up. And then I'll have a year off and that'll be cool. Cause I really wanted this job. I thought it was a dream job, travel around the world for free.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  And you know, just get people healthy and teach them about that and work on this cruise ship. So I get on the cruise ship. I spent that whole time um getting better and better at the job that I had kind of plateaued in for a while, I feel. I was doing a lot of seminars, which was really out of my comfort zone. I was such a bad public speaker growing up and it was my biggest fear. So I really. Came out of that fear, although it took a little while, and that was really pushing it. And then I also was. Learning a lot from other people with different ideas than I had about health. I was meeting one or two thousand new people. You know, who were coming on that ship and a bunch of them coming into the gym every week. So I was really challenging my views on what healthy was.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  And then I met this man who actually was not the picture of health at all, but he'd been a vegetarian for twenty years. And I was like, man, you need to start eating meat ASAP. You are gonna die real, like any day now, I'm telling you. The deficiencies must be out of this world. But he was like, I've been doing this twenty years, you know, you didn't, you do not need to eat meat to be healthy. And there was a very interesting guy. It was an Indian guy, really wise, really spiritual. And I was totally feeling. You know, this guy's vibes. So I thought, man, maybe I'll try it. Like, he'd, he'd bestowed a lot of knowledge on me over the two weeks of his cruise and gave me a lot of his time and. You know, just, I don't know, I just thought maybe I'll just try it. And hope, hopefully I'll just be able to cross it off my list and be like, yeah, that's not for me.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Going vegetarian is definitely not for me. I don't wanna do that. I never wanna try it again. And I kind of just hoped and expected that's what would happen. And actually. Within days, I noticed improvements in how I felt after meals and my energy was great and I was really wanting to train and push it out in the gym and this was all shocking to me.

• 37:45Rich Roll?

  So this guy is like your Eskimo. Uh, that's what they say in recovery, like the person that brings you into the recovery. They call him the Eskimo. And that's interesting, like, I'm sure you had met vegetarians before in your life, but there was something about this dude that that connected with you in a different way. Like, what do you think it was about the way that he communicated with you that that allowed that message to penetrate in a way that that previously it didn't?

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Well, I'd been in in all the years as a personal trainer, I was always very interested in self-development and, you know, reading books that would help me connect more spiritually, be a better person, a more positive person and, you know, just shine brighter. And he put it, he didn't talk much about the industry or he didn't talk at all about it as far as I remember. All he said was that eating animals is bad karma. And that's what resonated. I was like, damn, I don't want bad karma. And I'm trying to do all these things to get good karma, like I'm not perfect or anything, but I am trying to help people and I am very passionate about that. That's why I'm a personal trainer. It wasn't just for the money, it was very much because I wanted to help people out of their suffering, because I knew how bad it was.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  And that's what he said, eating animals is bad karma. I said, there's no such thing as a healthy vegetarian. He said, I've been vegetarian 20 years. I said, damn, all right, I'm gonna look into this. I tried it for a week, I felt better and I started reading more about it. I read a a big book on it called Healing with Whole Foods, just coincidentally that had fallen in my lap. And it wasn't a vegan book, a plant-based diet book. It was kind of like Chinese medicine kind of thing.

• 39:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I haven't heard of that book.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  Really cool. And it's got a lot of recipes in the back, it's all whole foods and but basically it goes through all these conditions and the answer to all these conditions is to eat a plant-based diet, eat a plant-based diet. And I was like, I'm noticing a trend here. Maybe I should look more into this and. I'd always been so close off to it, you know, as a personal trainer, things had come in my, in, you know, in front of me that I did notice, oh, this is saying that meat is bad. So I just brushed it out of my way. Well, I don't wanna bother reading that. I'm never ever gonna stop eating meat. Me stop eating meat, how am I gonna, what am I gonna do? Like, how am I gonna enjoy my meals? It's not worth it. I don't care about health that much that I'm gonna stop eating meat.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  And I'd seen other things about, you know, like worms coming out of, you know, parasites coming out of pork when Coca-Cola was poured on it, and just different things that kinda grossed me out, but nowhere near enough. I just thought, oh, who, where's that guy getting his pork, man? He ain't getting it from my supermarket. My, mine doesn't do that. So that had all been in my, you know, coming in my path, but I just totally discounted it. Nah, I'm never gonna do it. And if I learn about it and I tell my clients about it, but I don't follow it, I'm gonna look like a hypocrite. So what's the point?

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  And, you know, I started getting interested because of this book I was reading and what he'd said to me. So I start looking into it more online and with an open mind for the first time. Cause I'd tried it for a little while and trying it for a little while made me realize, oh, this food's actually good. Well, I can get full doing this. I still am pushing it out in the gym. Okay, so I realized it was possible. That's what opened my mind.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  And also, I don't know if this is related, but I feel like it probably is. There is a quote, a Buddhist quote, that is, the consumption of animal products extinguishes the seed of great compassion. So I feel like I was eating all these animal products. I just wasn't feeling it in any way to change. And the first thing I learned was that not only can you be healthy on a plant-based diet, but you're likely to live longer and reduce your chances of developing most of the worst diseases and most popular diseases that our society is currently faced with, like heart disease and number one killer. And the plant-based diets are only diet proven to reverse in the majority of patients.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  And dropping cancer rates by huge numbers and all of these things that I thought. How did I miss this massive thing? And how did my personal training mentors that I had for a while and my, the personal training manager and all the guys I worked around and at TAFE at college? How did I never hear this side of the story that this is healthier? And I think everyone was probably just as close off to it as I was because eating meat is so normal and such a part of our culture. And, you know, it's, it's, it's all of it. It's that meat is manly and that we need meat for protein and dairy for casting. And all of these lies that we have been duped into believing.

• 42:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we've come a long way in just the last couple of years alone, I think, in, in debunking a lot of those myths, but there's so much, um, energy and money and, um, uh, momentum behind all of those stories that, uh, simply attempting to rebut them, let alone overcome them, requires a tremendous amount of, of persistence in order to do so. And I feel like we're, we're, we're inching up towards a turning point with all of this. And a lot, in large part due to alternative forms of media. Because as you know, as somebody who does a lot of interviews,

• 43:08Rich Roll?

  there's a lot of mainstream outlets that really don't want to talk about this because their advertising base comes from the pharmaceutical industry and the animal agriculture industry and the processed food industry. And they're not so keen on this message getting out to the public because it, of course, undercuts the revenues and, and contradicts the advertisements that come 30 seconds after the talking point, right? And I think it is, you know, I had a similar experience in which, uh, a similar experience that was revelatory for me, you know, that's not that distinct from, from your own story, in which my own direct experience of trying this diet and

• 43:53Rich Roll?

  expecting it not to work, but being open minded enough, enough to explore it,

• 43:59Rich Roll?

  created results that I would have not foreseen or expected. And I think I kind of went into it. Not from an ethics point of view, but purely from a selfish health perspective. And I think a lot of people have, you know, everybody has their different entry points. But I think there's a lot of well meaning people that get interested from the ethics perspective, who decide that they're going to be comfortable with this bargain that, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna cut all the meat and dairy products out of my diet. And if I'm gonna, if that means that I'm gonna lift a little bit less in the gym, or run a little bit slower, like, I'm okay with that.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 44:39Rich Roll?

  And what is amazing, and what I gather was your experience, and certainly was mine, was that it was exactly the opposite. My gains became, they were like exponentially more than they were prior to that.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 44:54Rich Roll?

  So it's like, I look at it like, it checks every box, man.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  All the boxes.

• 44:58Rich Roll?

  You know, every box gets checked. It's better for the planet. It's better for your health. It's better for your performance. And it's certainly better for the animals.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 45:07Rich Roll?

  Right? And when you, when you kind of go down the line and look at it from that perspective, I have a greater empathy for those people that are frustrated with the fact that there is so much resistance to these ideas.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Totally. You can't, you can't blame anybody because, yeah, it is, it's, in my opinion, it's just a form of brainwashing. All these, all this propaganda they put out there. Like, for example, last night, we were at a slaughterhouse as the trucks came in, stopping the trucks, taking photos, taking footage. And the walls of the slaughterhouse were covered in a mural, a big painting, of these farmers lying down, reading books to pigs, and a little girl giving a flower to a pig. And this is on the slaughterhouse walls. So it's painting this picture of, yeah, we're so kind to our pigs. Meanwhile, they get forced inside there, they get shot in the head with a bolt gun, and then they get stabbed in the throat. And they, they suffer and scream and feel all the same kind of pain that you,

• 46:06Speaker 01

  that we would feel if you were stabbed in the throat and shot in the head. And yet, that's the picture they paint. So I think there's so much to this, this.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Industry and this enterprise and the propaganda and people are to just go along with it. Of course, of course, they kill them.

• 46:26Rich Roll?

  But bacon, but bacon.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, bacon. So delicious. Yeah. And and it's it's man, I've been all over the world like we were talking about earlier. Even kids are the first question, but where do you get protein? All over the world, you know, even in even in India and Scotland and Australia and here and Norway. Just everywhere, man, is fed with the same story, the same narrative, which is wow, great job to them. They've done an amazing job of duping us all into thinking we need this carcinogenic protein. And it it's magical. It only is found in meat. So many people believe that health professionals believe that doctors believe that. And it couldn't be further from the truth.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  What we need for better health is to get protein from plants, which it is found in abundance. Yeah, it's a really interesting, you know, that that's a really interesting side of it. I think all of the corruption and all of the the propaganda that people believe. Now, I think that's a that's a whole podcast on its own with somebody who's probably knows a bit more about it.

• 47:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, listen, uh, you know, animal agriculture is one of one of our leading industries. And we have a situation in which the government, it it's unclear where government and lobbying efforts and regulatory bodies end and consumer interest begins. Because the um, the FDA is really just a quasi government organization that is funded by the dairy industry. You go into public schools and there's posters saying milk does a body good. Like, who gets to advertise in a public school? I mean, it's insane when you actually think about it. But when you just grow up with that, I don't know what it's like in Australia.

• 48:14Rich Roll?

  But in the United States, there's milk posters in the public schools. Other industries don't get to advertise to young kids in that way. Why do they get that permission? Because of this quasi. You know, sort of pseudo-government entity that's really a private interest lobbying effort to get people hooked on these products as early on as possible. And that's where the minds are malleable enough to cement these stories in their minds that create habits that serve people for the rest of their lifetimes.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And that's what you see. And that's what I see when I'm doing outreach with people and asking questions after my speeches, is that people have never really thought these answers through, you know, after they say, oh, you need meat for protein. I say, well, do you think that protein is found in any other foods? And you can see that's kind of the first time they've ever considered, oh, yeah, protein, I guess, is found in other foods. And, you know, you ask the questions, well, if you can find protein in other foods, are there any nutrients you think that are only found in meat that you can't find in plants? And a lot of people, they don't have answers to these questions. They've never gone the next step and actually questioned any of these things we've, we were taught in school as kids. It's just the norm.

• 49:29Rich Roll?

  The hilarious irony is that, and you mentioned it earlier, if, if somebody's going to forego meat and dairy, the immediate next question is, well, you're going to be deficient, right? So, all right, well, what exactly are you going to, if you, if you swap off, swap the meat and dairy off your plate, and then you suddenly adopt a bounty of different kinds of plant foods close to their natural state, you're actually going to increase your ingestion of all kinds of phytonutrients and micronutrients and minerals and vitamins because you're diversifying your plate in a way that, that far exceeds what you're getting when you're eating cheeseburgers and fries and pizza, or whatever else, you

• 50:11Rich Roll?

  know, most people typically eat. So it's just bizarre. I, I would have said the same thing, but when you actually take a moment and go, all right, well, let's really think this through. The question makes no sense.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And you know, what you said was so true. Your, your first question, or my first question, I think a lot of people, at least who are interested in fitness is, am I gonna lose my gains? Am I gonna perform less? That was my first question. So I got that, you know, that roadblock handled straight away when I learned that some of the most elite athletes on the planet, including the world record holding strongman, are consuming absolutely no animal products. So that was done. But for me, a, a big question after that was, am I gonna ever enjoy a meal again? If I'm cutting animal products out of it, am I gonna be able to, you know, have foods that I enjoy? And I was really grateful to find that not only is there a, an abundance of, like literally millions at our disposal with a few clicks on our phone,

• 51:05Speaker 01

  of recipes, plant-based recipes made from whole foods that taste absolutely delicious. But we also, in two thousand and eighteen, replicate meat, dairy products, eggs, everything that you can think of that you once needed an animal for. We now have foods that taste the same, that smell the same, that look the same, that are generally healthier and no animals were killed. And you don't miss out on anything, except for cholesterol, which is a good thing.

• 51:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the, the food industry has finally figured out how to make these things taste good. And, and they're doing it with less and less, uh, you know, processed ingredients. You know, for a long time, we kind of had to tolerate these, you know, sausage patties or whatever that tasted terrible. But now there's plenty of options. They all taste good. And in this moment that we're experiencing of content penetration on the internet, there are a bazillion YouTube videos that will walk you through whatever question or conundrum or recipe that you're looking for. So when people say, well, I don't live near Whole Foods, or I don't, you know, whatever, um, those answers are readily available to those who are, uh, inclined to search them out.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think what I searched out before that was more reason than why. And that's when, you know, I, I'd done that week as a vegetarian. I'd learned that you can be healthy. I got excited and started trying to preach that to my clients. Hey, I know I told you to eat meat.

• 52:28Rich Roll?

  One weekend?

• 52:28Speaker 01

  La- last week I was eating steak and telling you to eat it. Now I'm telling you, yo, eat chickpeas instead. But I also wanted to find out, you know, I opened my mind to the ethical side of it. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna watch this documentary, Earthlings, which shows all the ways that humans exploit and kill animals for food, clothing, entertainment, medical testing. And I'd seen slaughterhouse footage before. And my brother showed it to me and he said, you'll never eat meat again if you watch this. And I watched it and I did not feel a trace of sadness. I said, mate, we are human, we have to eat animals to survive. If you wanna feel guilty about it, that's up to you, but I'm not going to. That's just how it is, man. And I didn't, I didn't feel nothing.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  And then when I watched Earthlings with a new understanding that we can live and thrive on a plant-based diet. I was actually so appalled. And although I was not an animal lover, I, I know suffering when I see it. And there's a difference between, okay, but we have to do this to survive. And, oh, we're just creating all this suffering and violence and killing of these emotional, intelligent, feeling beings who are just like us, you know, we're animals, humans are animals, they're animals. In the ways that matter, we are the same. They just look a bit different on the outside. And when I saw what we were doing to them, I just thought, okay, I am so out.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  This is not in alignment with the kind of person I'm striving to be, which is a peaceful person, a respectful person, a compassionate person. Every time I purchase an animal products, even though I'm not doing the killing myself, I'm paying someone else to do the killing. And that makes me equally responsible. I would never stab an animal to death just because I like how their body tastes. If I was stranded on a desert island, maybe I would because you've got to do what you've got to do to survive. But just because I like, I like how their body tastes and I feel like an extra flavor on my sandwich, no way, no way. And I think, yeah, when, when most people consider that themselves, could you kill yourself if you, if you didn't have to? And you just felt like that when there's other foods available, would you do that killing? Most people wouldn't.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  And that, that alone is telling a lot. Most people are good compassionate people who have just been taught to do, to contribute to an extremely bad thing. I mean, in our society. Throat slitting is no joke. You know, if, if you know someone who slits throats every day and eats their murder victims, you're gonna stay well away from them. We have a big problem with serious violence, any violence, but especially something that intense. And yet, every single day, we're paying people to slit throats for us and stab animals to death. And, and why we're okay with that is because we discriminate against them so strongly to the point where our enjoyment of a flavor

• 55:19Speaker 01

  for five minutes is more valuable in our eyes than their life or ending their suffering.

• 55:27Rich Roll?

  But God said that we are here to have dominion over the animals.

• 55:32Speaker 01

  I know, I wish you didn't say that. That I read a book called Eternal Treblinka, which highlights the parallels between the Nazi Holocaust and, you know, the Holocaust they created and also the animal Holocaust, which is what it is, a mass slaughter of innocent beings. And it's said in that book that the worst thing that ever happened to animals was that quote in the Bible. And I think that that Bible has been translated many times. I think more likely, a compassionate, loving, merciful God, Jesus, the Prince of Peace, the Lamb of God, would not be okay with stabbing sentient beings to death. When there's another option.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  And I think that we, we should embody the good teachings of Christ, if that's something you want to believe in, which was of being loving, being compassionate, helping those in need. There's no one more in need or there's equal to, but there's not that many individuals right now lined up. Systematically waiting for their execution bred into existence for the purpose of being executed so so humanity can feast on their corpses. I think Jesus would be very much against it, and I think it's in the commandments. Thou shalt not kill. Chapter one, it says that God gives us every every fruit and every seed bearing plant as food. That's our food.

• 57:00Rich Roll?

  Well, even if or assuming presuming that that that passage in the Bible has been translated, you know, however, many times from its original text and intent, which there can be plenty of discussions about, doesn't does it not just boil down to how we define the term dominion?

• 57:18Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 57:19Rich Roll?

  Is that being inferred to mean that that that we can do as we please without repercussions? Or does it mean that that that level of control that we have the ability to exercise comes with a certain responsibility?

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Absolutely, man, absolutely. And and we're so great at that in so many other areas. We create so many laws to protect each other. Humans are protected and violent people go to jail or or sometimes worse in this country. They get executed from, you know, in different states, right? That's a that's protection and we're great at using our responsibility and duty of care with the power we have to put good practices in place to protect the innocent and the vulnerable. Yet we throw that all out the window when it comes to pigs, cows, chickens and fish. And it's it's called speciesism. I'm sure you know all about it, where just like white people discriminated against black

• 58:16Speaker 01

  people because they're a different race, thinking that that was a worthwhile reason to enslave others. They look different. They're not like us, you know? And and the wow, I mean, to think that they could have done that based on something so. Ridiculous as the colour of your skin or how you looked and men did the same with women. And humans do the same with other species of animals. You know, we love dogs, we love dolphins, we love whales, but we think nothing of killing and eating pigs, cows, chickens, fish and all the others. And it's not because those animals are less intelligent or have less value or feel pain less or don't have a heart or don't have a brain or something like that.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  It is simply because they're the ones we've chosen and they're the ones that we like the taste of. And so we're so hypocritical, you know, there's a couple of good quotes that came to mind. Because the heart beats under a covering of feathers, scales, wings or fur. It is for that reason to be of no account. Just because they look a little different on the outside, they're still our brothers and sisters covered in feathers, scales, wings or fur. And Gandhi said, you can judge the nation's moral progress by the way that they treat their animals. Every single nation has slaughterhouses, every single nation breeds animals into existence against their will. Like these mothers in the dairy industry, for example, they're restrained by a human who will shove their arm into her anus and then inject her with bull semen.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  And you just put a human in that situation and that is rape. And we do the same to animals and it is the dairy industry, business as usual. Another day on a dairy farm, they are not willing participants in that. They have a pregnancy forced on them. After nine months, their babies are born and they're taken away from them straight away. Kidnapping, the baby boys are sent to the slaughterhouse because they don't produce milk. They're slaughtered, infanticide. And then the mothers are used as milk slaves, hooked up to milking machines every day. Re-impregnated every year for five to seven years. And after that time, then they're so severely exploited that they drop, called a down cow. That cow's sent to the same slaughterhouse as her baby and gets stabbed in the throat and killed as well.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  That's just so we can have a glass of milk when we have soy, rice, almond, coconut, hazelnut milk, hemp milk, all at the same supermarket. You can make oat milk from blending a cup of oats with four cups of water in a blender and straining it. And you've got oat milk like that, we don't need to do any of this violence to these animals. So when we have these facilities all over the world in every nation and we are creating our societies from the backs of animals, on the backs of this enslavement and killing. There's not a single moral nation on the planet. And we've got a long way to go before we get there because it's, you know, vegans are a very small percentage of people on this planet. But that's the path.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  The path is right there, which we've trodden it so well that we've got all your favorite foods. We've got all the health information. We've got millions of recipes out there. We've got everything someone needs to go vegan. Just there, just waiting for someone to start walking. And that's the path out of, we could end animal cruelty forever. We could fix the environment in such a massive way, like this path. If everyone just did what vegans were already doing,

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  billions, billions of earthlings would not be suffering and being murdered every single year. And I don't know how you feel about this, but I think that holds a huge energy. When we're consuming the products of violence and torture, is it any wonder that we are feeling stressed and anxious and depressed and, you know, struggling with our emotions and drugging ourselves with food and with drugs and with television and things like that. I think as well, when we have all this violence in the air, when there's slaughterhouses just around the corner from here, that, that's a vibration, man. That's happening. Energy is a real thing. And I think that this world is so far from its proper potential. And, and violence breeds violence.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  These slaughterhouse workers are being trained to kill good people. I'm not saying they're bad people. That's just the job they're doing in a world that's normalized violence against certain species. And the studies show that surrounding areas of slaughterhouses have higher rates of violent crime, suicide, drug abuse, and that spreads out as well, man. So it's not just that we're killing animals. It's that way, it's, it's breeding more violence in our societies. And it's got a ripple effect that is, you know, something we'll probably be writing many, many books about in future years.

• 1:02:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was, that's very eloquently said. And I'm completely on board with, with everything that, that you just explained. I think there's a lot of people. Who can wrap their heads around the ethical dilemma of eating animals. I think it becomes a little bit more difficult for people to understand veganism versus vegetarianism because we're not educated adequately on the evils of the dairy industry, which you just explained. I mean, there's so much that goes into that. I mean, I think there's a lot of people who think, I'm vegetarian, but you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have milk and cheese, I'm not killing the animal.

• 1:03:37Rich Roll?

  And that just belies a lack of understanding of what actually that industry entails. And I think it's a further leap for people to wrap their heads around the sort of karmic spiritual toll of ingesting these products and having these industries in our environment. I certainly am on your page when it comes to that. I think everything is energy and I think when your surroundings, when your environment is carrying that vibration, that that is impacting you. And when you're ingesting these animals who were tortured and having these, you know, hormonal surges at the moment of death, you're taking that into your body. And for many, it's a leap to say, well, you know, that, who cares?

• 1:04:19Rich Roll?

  It's just, it's, it's macronutrients and, you know, science isn't gonna explain anything beyond that. But I think that there's, there is a, there is a spiritual toll that you pay by participating in that system, ingesting these products into your body and how that manifests in your spiritual, emotional, in your spiritual, emotional self and how you carry yourself in the world. And I can tell you from my own experience, and I know this is your experience as well, when you remove those things from your plate and when you extract yourself from that environment, there is a purification that takes place that, that made me feel like a more integrated

• 1:05:04Rich Roll?

  individual who is living, not just more in accordance with, with my own personal values, but Exempting yourself from that, I think, has, you know, has an impact on you that, that, that defies what we can currently explain scientifically.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I think it's quite obvious because there is a serious connection that is being severed every time you purchase meat, dairy and eggs. Like I said, you would never contribute to so much violence. You're not just paying for a product, a neatly wrapped package on the supermarket shelf. You're paying for everything that happened to that animal along the way in order to get there. And you would, most people would never be okay with even a tenth of the violence and the suffering that is caused to these beings.

• 1:05:52Rich Roll?

  We're all inherently compassionate.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:05:54Rich Roll?

  Right? And we've made this bargain where we've convinced ourselves that this is okay. And we're willing to participate in this system because we've been led to believe that it's necessary.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:06:09Rich Roll?

  And so we compartmentalize these things. We put it in our unconscious mind so that when we are reaching for that milk or that, you know, the ground beef or whatever it is, it doesn't even occur to us.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  No, deliberately, deliberately made so that you look at the carton and you see this happy cow and you think, yeah, I feel good about this. No big deal. And I need it for calcium. So what am I going to do? And I think you're totally right. I feel totally different being vegan now. You know, I went vegetarian, like I said, for that experiment. And I, I spent about a year as a vegetarian. I was still struggling with my eating disorder at the time. I ended up doing a 10 day meditation as recommended by the man who said eating.

• 1:06:49Rich Roll?

  Eskimo.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, my Eskimo. That's right.

• 1:06:51Rich Roll?

  Your spiritual guru.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, um, you know, during this 10 day meditation, which is of a personal course, so you meditate 10 hours a day for 10 days in silence. I had the idea to do a year long vow of silence to raise awareness for animals. I thought that would be just something that would draw attention to to their plight. You know, I write, I drive around Australia, I write a blog about my experience. Hopefully people wanna pay attention to what I'm doing and then I'll plant some seeds along the way. And I knew if I was gonna do that, you know, I'd only been vegetarian for a few months at that point, that I needed to learn a lot more and I started asking, finding the answer to the questions, like you said, but God said this. And but what about protein? What about free range? And what about if we humanely kill them and all these kind of things?

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  And during that time is when I realized, ah, being vegetarian is not enough. All animal use is a form of exploitation, exploitation is a form of abuse and all abuse is immoral. So I guess that means it's not just about meat, it's also about dairy, eggs, leather. It's about products that contain animal products or have been tested on animals. We test our shampoo on animals, for example, all these things. And I thought, okay, I'd always thought vegans were extreme, but actually looking at it, it looks quite peaceful and very kind. And just simply the right thing to do, the way I was living my life seems extreme now. Extremely violent and cruel and unnecessary. The main thing is it's unnecessary to live like that.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  And I started learning more about veganism and when I went vegan, I still wasn't an animal lover. You know, I went vegan the day I started my vow of silence, same day. I was also the same day that I said from this day on, I'm never binging and purging again. And I haven't once since, which was nearly five years ago now. It was a really cool day and it took time for me to reconnect to these animals that I'd severed this connection to. I was going to sanctuaries, I I met a dairy cow who was, you know, a baby cow who was um sent to the dairy industry, who we rescued and I spent six weeks with with him, his name's Rupert. And I learned about this cow and and what they're like and how they feel and express themselves and, you know, kind of tell you what they want and things like that.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  And it took time though for me to become an animal lover. But now, like this change that's happened in me is so huge. Because I see animals now and I feel like they're just family and they've got their own families and I watch them and I think, wow, what are you doing right now? Like, where are you going? And you're just playing or you you you got a plan to that, you know, when that birds are flying, I just think you're just enjoying yourself and a lot of time they are and ants are always so busy and I'm just checking out life now in a way that I never did before. And, you know, I'm appreciating all these, all these creatures everywhere in a way I never did before. And I think that's where the dominion comes in. You're looking out for them. It's like, man, does anybody like, what can we do? Does anybody need help? And I think that's where the calling to not just be vegan,

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  but spread this vital message comes in.

• 1:09:56Rich Roll?

  I'm always super interested in the defining moments in people's lives that that transform how they live and and kind of forge a new path for how they, you know, how they reinvent themselves. And, you know, when I look at your life, it seems like there's two. There's the, there's the entry point of the Eskimo Guru, right? And there is this Vipassana meditation retreat, silent meditation retreat that you that that you went on, which has been kind of a recurring theme on this podcast. I've had several people whose lives have been altered in amazing ways by virtue of hitting timeout and going on one of these retreats. It's definitely something I, you know, I'm keen to do in the near future.

• 1:10:39Rich Roll?

  Uh, maybe most notably, Yuval Noah Harari, who like has written these, you know, earth shattering books. And he's very clear that he would never have been able to have the big ideas that he conveys in his writing and his speaking without, um, without doing, he does an annual 60 day Vipassana silent meditation retreat. And that's where he really like, these ideas occur to him, you know, that then influenced the world, right? And I see in your own case, a similar example. So was it?

• 1:11:13Rich Roll?

  Explain to me the impact of that retreat and that experience of meditation. And how that that really led to, I mean, it's, it seems to me that this is the experience that really kind of forged the clarity to live this new life.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  Vipassana gave me the technique for sure. It, it basically you go to this place, you don't talk to anyone, you don't look at anyone, you get guided for 10 days, 10 hours a day into this meditation technique called Vipassana, which they describe as the technique that the Buddha discovered to fully liberate yourself from suffering. And apparently, that's pretty much all he taught, but it was all surrounded, it all surrounded this technique. The technique is two equal parts. It is observation of your physical sensations and equanimity, which means balance of the mind. So you're basically just accepting the moment in whatever way it presents itself. The reason why it helps is because, the reason why they use the physical sensation level

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  is Buddha's discovery was that that is where you start to create habit patterns. You have a physical sensation and you react in a certain way, whether with craving or with aversion. So you have a good sensation, you go, oh, good, you react, crave, crave, crave. But as nature goes, all sensations and everything is impermanent. As that sensation starts to leave, you crave more, oh, no, it's going, where's it going? And then you start to suffer because of that. Or say the sensation is pain, immediately you have, address to the pain, you don't want it to be there, you resist, no, I don't want this pain, when will this pain go? I hope this pain goes soon. And eventually it goes. Nature was gonna take care of it anyway.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  And what we do, instead of just observing and accepting the moment as it is, we cling, we resist, that causes our suffering. We get into these, this addiction of clinging and craving and we're suffering almost all the time. And a lot of it is in our head. We paint so many pictures in our head of what we want our life to be, or what our life was and we wish it was, or things that happened. And we react to these pictures in our head as if they're real. And that causes suffering too. So basically, the technique is about sitting there and letting the the flow of nature, the flow of these sensations come through your body. You scan your body from top to bottom and you just observe what's happening and you fully

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  accept the worst pain if you can and you fully let go of the the nicest flow of sensation. And you become more solid. So the good feelings don't throw you up and the bad feelings don't throw you down. You just become consistently accepting and it brings a strong peace. Um, that that yeah, is a really beautiful thing. And you know, it doesn't mean you're perfect straight away. You don't do ten days. You're like, yo, I'm enlightened. Right. Here we go. But what happens is that if you, let's say, for example, a sensation that you react to, you know, you react in a way that brings anger in your mind. Instead of it being a eight out of ten anger that you are in for six hours or even two

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  days, it's a seven out of ten and then it's a six and it's a five and you don't roll in it for two days. You roll in it for one day and then twelve hours and then eight hours. And and that's how you come out of it. And that's how you know that you're progressing on the path. So when I learned this technique, I was so, so lucky to learn this man because I I had never given up, you know, with my cancer, with my drug induced psychosis, um, with any of these things. But when it came to my eating disorder, I was like, okay, I don't know how to get out of this. I have tried and tried and tried and I just, I I've read books. I I don't know what else to do. This gave me the technique to come out of it. I didn't come out of it straight away. And I actually, I was so lucky. I found this

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  other book. I was reading, I was looking for another book for a friend called The Power by Rhonda Byrne, which is about how to live a positive, great grateful life, which is a really great book. But I in the, because I couldn't find it there, I found this other book called End Emotional Eating by Dr. Jennifer Tates. And basically, when I read this, like, I read the back. And I read the back page and I was like, oh my God, this is the book. This is gonna get me out of here. I just knew it. And I read it and it was like she'd adopted the Vipassana technique specifically to emotional eating.

• 1:15:38Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Oh, man, it was, it was so serendipitous. And as I read it, I just knew this is it, this is it. And I started coming out of it to the point where, you know, I was, I was still struggling and I'd be vegan for two weeks. Straight up vegan, you know, eating only plant based and then I'd have a binge on ice cream. And I hate myself for it. I'm like, damn, I didn't want to be doing this. I know the dairy industry now. I don't want to be putting this negative food into my body anymore. And I, it was the eating disorder that was kind of getting the better of me. That's why I made a date. I said, from this day on, January 1st, I'm vegan, no more slip ups. And I'm not binging and purging anymore. A few days into my vow of silence, I did binge. I had a giant peanut butter and a liter of ice cream.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  And I ate pretty much, I ate the whole lot of ice cream and almost a giant peanut butter, man. And I'm sitting there just feeling so, so empty for myself, just thinking, man, this could come back up real easily. Three days after I'd made these vows to myself. And I said, nah, you made a vow and you are sticking to it. And I just sat there so uncomfortable. And then the next time I binged a week or two later, I got, I got a lot of the way in. Let's say I got 90% in and I was like, hang on a minute. I did not want to feel like I felt the other day. And I stopped a little bit sooner and a little bit sooner, I started surfing these urges to over consume food and, and that's how I came out of it, just using the Vipassana technique.

• 1:17:00Rich Roll?

  It's really, uh, important and refreshing to hear that because you're somebody who I think a lot of people look at as like super hardcore and like you're like, hey, man, draw the line in the sand and that's it. And to hear that you struggled and that you slipped up and, you know, it's a, it's a process for everybody, I think is, is important. You know, is important for people to understand about how you evolved into this. But it is amazing. So you, so, so you have this Vipassana retreat. And then how long after that do you make this? So it's around then that you decide to go totally vegan. You have a couple of slip ups or whatever. Like what is the timeline in terms of, of saying you're gonna do this year of silence?

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  Uh, well, first let me just agree with something you said that I think is a really important point to touch on. It is a process. You don't just unravel decades of conditioning in a, in an overnight. You know, you don't just change your whole life overnight. I mean, some people do and they go vegan and like boom, I threw out all my meat and dairy and eggs and I'm done. Some people go vegetarian for a year. Some people do it for three months. Some people start eating vegan for breakfast, vegan for lunch, then vegan for dinner. Some people do meatless Mondays and then they get through it this way. But I think the point is just start somewhere. Maybe all you do today is, okay, from now on, I'm not gonna buy a cow's milk. I'm going to buy soy milk and that's your thing. There's really not that, people, a lot of people say, don't promote baby steps. Baby steps are for babies.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Man, there's not that many steps to go vegan. It's actually quite easy. If it was hard, you wouldn't see so many people doing it. All around the world and just to, you know, average people, like, you don't have to be highly intelligent. You don't have to be, have strong willpower, like. It's, it's nothing like that. It's just, okay, there's a few things I need to do here. I need to change my milk. Um, eat beans instead of meat or tofu or vegan meat. And, you know, okay, well, I guess I'll have smoothies for breakfast. Like, you just figure it out. Doesn't all happen overnight. People are busy and don't let that discourage you. Oh, I could never go all the way vegan. You probably can. You'll probably find it way easier than you expect. You'll find it infinitely more rewarding than you would expect as well. And that's the experience of, I've spoke to thousands of vegans now. You ask any of them, what's the best thing you ever did?

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  They'll almost all tell you, when I went vegan. And there's so many reasons for that. But whatever, take a step, start. Often, one step has momentum that follows with the next and the next. And just get there as fast as you can, you know? Yeah, veganism is the goal and we should all do it. It should be the moral baseline of our society. We should simply just not be killing if we don't need to and we should simply not be taking what is not ours in the first place. But that doesn't, you know, of course, just do it as practically as you can. I also don't want people to try it overnight. Go, oh, I tried it. I couldn't do it. That wasn't for me. And then just never try it again. I think it's not for them. Do what's sustainable for you. Um, okay, so, and, and that's what I did. And that's what a lot of people did. Most vegans who are vegan now did not go vegan overnight.

• 1:19:53Rich Roll?

  Of course not.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Rich Roll?

  The human, the human vehicle doesn't work that way. But I think there's a lot of people that think that that is the way it is, or the people that are outspoken about it did make that switch and they did it perfectly and they did it overnight. And, and people are intimidated because they feel like they can't live up to that standard. And so even if they take a shot at it, they have one slip up and they're out.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  We've got to encourage, we've got to encourage people, man. We've got to, you know, people slip up. Don't be like, okay, well, you're out of the club. It's like, okay, so what did you slip up on? How can I help you with that? Or how can you help yourself with that so that next time you're more prepared and that slip up doesn't happen? Let's learn from this mistake and next time hopefully it doesn't happen.

• 1:20:34Rich Roll?

  And sometimes those explanations are practical, like, oh, I just didn't, you know, organize my day so that I could get to the market in time or whatever. And I went home and I didn't clean out my cupboard and there, the convenient choice was the unhealthy choice. Or sometimes it's a more complex answer that has to do with the emotional triggers that lead you to make those choices, which is, you know, that you had to go through everything that you had to go through with your experience of emotional eating in order to have enough self-awareness to rectify those behavior patterns. But I think a lot of people are so disconnected from themselves that even the idea that they're emotionally eating seems anathema. Like, what do you mean I'm emotionally eating? Like, they're doing

• 1:21:18Rich Roll?

  it, but just getting them to the place of making that connection is, is a challenge in the first place. Forget about going vegan.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:21:26Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Totally. And I was dedicated to fixing that problem and it took me a long time to come out of it. So yeah, we're all on our own path and let's just support each other and help, you know, help move people in that direction. Plant seeds where possible and, you know, just help out where you can. And it's not our job to make anyone go vegan. We've just got to give them all the information we can, make it as convenient and as easy as possible, and people will do what they're gonna do.

• 1:21:49Rich Roll?

  What's great about your story and, and, and forgive me, but kind of hilarious is that You embark on this year of silence when you're like vegan five minutes, right?

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  I know, literally. Not even five minutes, one second.

• 1:22:03Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that. I thought like, oh, this guy must have been vegan for like 10 years. He's so intense and hardcore about it. Like you were like.

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  Nah, it was fresh, fresh vegan meat.

• 1:22:11Rich Roll?

  It's kind of funny, man.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  I know, man. I was very passionate. Like as soon as I figured it out, as soon as I kind of realized what was happening and how needless all this violence was, I was like, whoa, man, do I really know this massive secret that most people don't seem to know? Like it just felt like, no, I must be wrong. There must be something I'm missing. We must have to do it for some reason. And when I realized, actually, no, just not a lot of people get this. I thought, whoa, I felt so grateful that I'd just gone down the path I had and come into the knowledge that I had and been interested enough in health to learn that it's perfectly healthy and all these kinds of things. I was so grateful, man. And, and yeah, when you, when you learn about such an atrocity, yeah, you just feel compelled to do whatever you can.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  And, you know, I'm, I'm not a doctor and I'm not a documentary maker and there's a lot of great ways to help. But for me, I don't know, I'd had a pretty, I've gone through some pretty intense things in my life. And, you know, taking a year long vow of silence, it was interesting to me. And to a lot of people I know, they would have thought it was a lot more wild than what I did. I thought, oh yeah, that'd be sweet. I'll do that. But a lot of people are like, what? You're gonna do what?

• 1:23:16Rich Roll?

  I mean, it is pretty intense.

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was pretty intense.

• 1:23:19Rich Roll?

  Like walk me through just the practical aspects of like how you live when you make this decision that you're not gonna talk for a year.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:23:27Rich Roll?

  Were you, were you, uh, physical, were you a physical trainer at that time?

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  I took the year off to travel around Australia. I wanted to, um, make the journey more interesting. And I knew all my mates were plotting ways to get me to slip up. So I was like, I gotta be away from all you guys and I'm just gonna go on a little journey around Australia.

• 1:23:44Rich Roll?

  Like setting traps for you?

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  Totally, man.

• 1:23:46Rich Roll?

  Where you would have to talk?

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  Like fake emergencies. I don't know. They would have figured it out. They're a crafty bunch.

• 1:23:52Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  So I, yeah, I decided to get a van, travel around Australia and write a blog about my experience. And basically coming into contact with people was for the first while I was just writing everything down, every word, which was extremely.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  Frustrating on both sides and it made me wanna do a lot more listening.

• 1:24:13Rich Roll?

  Did you carry around like a little chalkboard thing or like whiteboard?

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  I went through a lot of notebooks. I went through a lot.

• 1:24:19Rich Roll?

  And how many years ago was this?

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  That was two thousand and fourteen, January first.

• 1:24:22Rich Roll?

  That wasn't that long ago.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  No, not really. So I did that, um, you know, I started just sort of, I went vegan that day. So I didn't really know what was going on. I, I volunteered at a sanctuary so I could meet these animals. I was fighting for these animals, doing this thing for these animals. I'd never even met them. I'd never met a cow, never met a chicken or a pig. So I go to a sanctuary. That's when the, the rescued Bobby calf came in. Rupert, spent six weeks with him. Coolest thing happened, man. After spending six weeks of like giving milk, you know, this milk to this cow. And I'm really bonding with this little guy. Such a beautiful, gentle animal, like so, so sweet.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  I, I was chilling in the barn. I had to say goodbye. Obviously I couldn't speak cause it'd been, by that point, I think it'd been probably like two or three months. He'd never heard me speak obviously as well. And so I just thought it to him, like, I'm gonna use some telepathy here. It's all I got. He can't read either. So I just telepathy to him over the other side of the barn. I'm like Rupert, it's been such a pleasure getting to know you and taking care of you. You know, I'm so sorry for what's happening to you and your family, but we're working on it and we're doing everything we can. I'll see you one day in the future. I'll come give you a visit. And he walked over to me and every day, because I was giving him the milk, what they do when they want milk, they headbutt their mom's udder to let them know. So he always, our whole relationship almost was just him headbutting me and like slobbering on my pants

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  and sucking on my pants trying to get milk, you know?

• 1:25:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  And yeah, and so he comes over to me and I'm like, oh, here we go. I just put these pants on, man. He's gonna mess my pants off. He's gonna headbutt me. That was, that was how he treated me every day. And this one time after I said that thing to him in my mind, he comes over and he does something to me that he'd never done. And he just nuzzles his head on my leg, like rubs his head into my leg. And I'm just looking down jaw to the floor like, oh my God, what is this behavior? And I bend down and usually trying to pat him, he just like kind of just drive himself into me, knock me over. And I'm just patting him on the head, looking at him. He's looking at me. I'm like, man, we're having a moment here. And it was so weird. I started tripping. I'm like, holy shit, am I telepathic or something? Did he hear me?

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  You know, what's going on? And it started making me question, wow, how much do these animals know? You know, what can, what are they capable of? And I'm not saying that he heard me. He heard me. Now, I'm not saying that he heard me, but you know, imagine if like they pick up on things, they pick up on vibes, they're, they're in tune in different ways than we are. And, you know, I, I'm not saying he heard me, but it was just such fascinating behavior to exhibit after that experience for the first time on the day that I'm leaving. It was really weird.

• 1:27:02Rich Roll?

  Well, we want to believe that they're dumb animals because it makes it easier for us to make the choice to eat them. Um, the truth is very different. And you mentioned specism earlier, and it's such a weird thing, specism. You know, we make these um, almost random decisions about animals that we decide to love and protect and covet versus animals that we um, wrap our heads, heads around eating without any ethical or moral dilemma. You know, pigs are the easiest example because, I mean, by all accounts, they're smarter than dogs. They're more intuitive. They have interior lives uh, on a level that uh, we don't like to admit to ourselves.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Like toddlers, like human toddlers. The, the big difference between human animals and other species of animals is we were blessed with a complicated voice box. And that gave us the ability to create a sophisticated language and therefore a sophisticated society. But you put a human out in the jungle and, and you know, you start getting it going there. They're not just gonna be starting popping out iPhones. Like that is a process that takes so much communication, which is what we had going for us. For the most part, they're gonna act like any other animal, you know, fend for themselves and take care of their family and that's, yeah, we're, we're blessed in that way. And that's why we've done what we've done. But fundamentally, we're just animals as well. And they're, and we're intelligent and they're intelligent. And we shouldn't judge, you know, Einstein said.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  If you judge a fish by his or her ability to climb a tree, they'll for their whole life believe that they are stupid. But they got no interest in doing that. And you know, there's incredible tales of, uh, just, just facts about animals that you would think, wow, I didn't know they could do that.

• 1:28:47Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  But um, you know, they doing it every day and we just need to, it's just, just, it's just the golden rule. It's just about treating others the way that you'd want to be treated and just respecting them. And you wouldn't want to be hurt and you wouldn't want to be exploited. You wouldn't want to be any of these things that we do to them. Let's just do that basic thing and show them the same courtesy, especially when it's so easy for us to do so.

• 1:29:09Rich Roll?

  From a philosophical and ethical perspective, I think that um, it's almost beyond debate. Uh, what the moral landscape looks like in terms of, uh, you know, how we think about uh, eating animals. But sentience kind of sits on a spectrum. On the highest level, you have human sentience or dolphin sentience.

• 1:29:33Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:33Rich Roll?

  Uh, and then it, you know, as you go down the scale, sentience sort of, I'm interested in your definition of sentience and, and how that plays into how you think about these things. But when you get down to, you know, lower, more base forms of animal life, like mollusks.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:51Rich Roll?

  You know, how do we, you know, how do we think about and act upon that insects and the like? Um, and I, and I raise this because um, from a purely devil's advocate perspective, these are arguments that are brought up on the fringes of what we, I think, can generally agree upon ethically as an argument against adopting this lifestyle. Well, what's wrong with eating mollusks because they're less complex than plants? And did you not know that, that plants actually have very complicated ways of communicating with each other? And these neural pathways and blah, blah, blah.

• 1:30:29Rich Roll?

  So, you know, are you perpetrating a greater harm by eating a plant than eating, uh, eating, uh, you know, eating, uh, scallops, for example?

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  That's a good question. I think, you know, when it comes to.

• 1:30:43Speaker 01

  Oysters and mussels and things like that, just uh uh from what I understand, they have clusters of nerves that can act in a unique type of central nervous system. I'll just err on the side of caution ethically and health wise, I don't think they're healthy food to eat either. Um but yeah, I guess that is a little bit more erring on the side of caution because it's a little bit more up for debate. Um and I can totally understand why people might see that as a gray area of me personally, I just think, well, maybe they are sent sentient in their own little way and maybe it just causes them some harm and if so, I just won't bother. I don't need to eat them, so I won't eat them. When it comes to plants, I think the biggest difference is that they aren't sentient beings, they don't have a heart, they don't have a brain.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  There's no one there, there's no individual observing life and experiencing sensations in the way that we do, like pain, because to have the feeling of pain, you need to have a central nervous system. But even if one day we found out, oh, we were wrong, actually, plants are sentient beings. Then hopefully we can find a way out of the mess we are in. But being a human means you are gonna have to cause some harm. And veganism isn't about zero harm, it is ideally, that would be great, but it's impossible, so veganism by definition is to strive to cause the least amount of harm practically possible. And if we want to cause less harm to plants, which we should, like, why not? Then we should still be eating only a plant-based diet because we would be feeding

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  animals six to twelve or some, say, six to fifteen times more plants to fatten these animals up before we also kill the animals. So we give them this huge amount of food, we get back this tiny little bit of food and it's totally an inefficient way, so it'd be better just to eat directly.

• 1:32:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think uh it's important to like have these conversations about these fringe issues, if for no other reason than it's an interesting academic thought experiment. But the reason I brought it up, another reason I brought it up is, is I think that it gets thrown out as an argument against adopting this lifestyle, almost as a hail mary distraction, because regardless of how we play out that experiment in our minds or through discourse.

• 1:32:57Rich Roll?

  What is the impact of that in terms of the the the moral landscape with respect to eating cows and pigs, right?

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  Hmm, I think that's a huge difference, man. I think we can see that if you chop a leaf off a tree, you know, or pull an orange off a tree, you don't even have to kill a plant in order to eat from the plant. You take the orange and more seeds are spread and more plants are grown, whereas you rip a leg off a dog or off a lamb and there's not gonna be more dogs growing. You're gonna see a dog in extreme pain and who's probably gonna die. So I think there's a big difference between mowing the grass and chopping the head off 50,000 animals, you know? And I think most people know that, and I think you're right. People just, they just say it. It's just another thing that they say, like, no, when you make for protein, no, plants feel pain.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  And it's just a, it's just another, another common objection that has, has no weight.

• 1:33:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's important to talk about this idea of aspiring to do less harm. And it's not about perfection. And I think a big impediment to people embracing this lifestyle is this sense that, that vegans walk around thinking they're morally superior or that they're on some kind of pedestal, condescending to other people and judging them. People don't wanna feel that way. They don't wanna be talked to that way. They don't wanna be in relationship with people in that manner. And I think in order to be an effective communicator and advocate, it does go back to compassion.

• 1:34:39Rich Roll?

  And I think in order to really objectively assess the extent to which we are perpetrating harm or less harm, it's, it's even more complicated than just, okay, I'm removing animal products. Like if you're You're like, okay, I'm vegan. That's great. But if you're buying all your clothes from some fast fashion factory that's turning out

• 1:35:10Rich Roll?

  toxic waste into the rivers around Malaysia or somewhere in the Philippines that's de-populating the fish population in that waterway, you're actually causing more harm than if you bought your clothes from Goodwill and ate a steak once a month. So I think it's more

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  That's a really good point.

• 1:35:34Rich Roll?

  There's downstream impacts to all the consumer choices that we're making, not just with our food, but with other products.

• 1:35:43Rich Roll?

  And I say that because none of us is immune from causing harm. We live in the modern world. I fly in airplanes.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:35:51Rich Roll?

  I have an iPhone. I don't know where all those precious minerals come from and the harm that's caused as a result of mining those. So let's get off our moral pedestal.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:36:03Rich Roll?

  And try to embrace people where they are in this communal spirit of how can we all just do better and love each other more deeply.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  Totally. What do you know? This is what I know. Let's help each other be better people. I think one thing about veganism is that, first of all, we eat three times a day. And most people are eating animal products three times a day, or at least every day. Whereas when we buy clothes or an iPhone, it's more like, I mean, personally, I buy clothes like every, not even every six months, maybe every year. Same with a phone, probably not even that often. So I think that in terms of, and also, like, when you can choose ethical clothing, of course we should. That should be a given, that that's what we choose. When an ethical iPhone comes out, I'm sure vegans will be the first to jump on it. And it doesn't mean, oh, but you don't jump on it now. It's like, yeah, no.

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  And that's true. Like, I guess we all draw a line somewhere, and I'm guilty of that too. Which is why I really try not to judge anybody else on the choices they make. And just try to encourage that, you know, the worst thing I think that we're contributing to, as far as I can tell, this seems pretty obvious, is choosing to consume animal products, especially for food, because we eat so often. And there's so much Uh so much violence that is direct, it's direct, you know, it's not we buy from this factory and then there's some pollution that goes in the way, it's it's I'm paying for you to kill for me. Um which also has kind of, kind of, yeah, the consequence of

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  um just condoning violence in a very open way in our society.

• 1:37:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  But I agree, man, no one's perfect and we should all be striving to do better and those who can really should. And um I I hope it becomes easy for us to to choose more ethical clothing, just like it's become more easier for us to choose soy milk instead of cow's milk.

• 1:37:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's getting easier. Um, you know, a lot of those uh, a lot of those lines, those brands are are expensive.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:07Rich Roll?

  But the idea is like, hey, you don't need ten white T shirts, how about just one that will last a long time, that wasn't created with the toxic dyes and actually supports the indigenous community that that created it, you know, all of those things, we're seeing more and more of that and I find great hope and inspiration and optimism in in, you know, people of your generation and and even the generation beneath you who care about these things more deeply uh than than people my age, for the most part. Uh and and are very intentional about ensuring that the dollar they spend is contributing to the world that they want to live in.

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  Totally, yeah, it's great that people realize we can vote without dollar these days. And yeah, it's it's hard not to know about, you know, a lot of the big issues because it's yeah, especially veganism, the vegan movement, it's being publicized so regularly in the media and online that it's kind of hard to hide from right now.

• 1:39:02Rich Roll?

  And it continues to grow despite uh a lot of vested interests that are trying to dismantle it and destabilize it.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  They must be scared, man. I mean, it's a great example that they are trying to stop plant based milks from being called milk.

• 1:39:20Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  You know, no, you can't call it milk. And it's like, well, you don't have a problem with peanut butter. So why the problem with almond milk, but as well, then, you know, we'll just find ways around that, like Oatly, which make oat milk. They have this great advertising campaign right now that says, Oatly, it's like milk, but made for humans. And I'm sure it's brilliant.

• 1:39:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there are a lot of lawsuits out there, uh. Attacking plant-based food companies for coming anywhere near using that verbiage. And I know a little bit more about this than probably the average person because Julie, my wife, is trying to launch this plant-based cheese line. And originally, she wanted to call it This Cheese Is Nuts, because that's the name of her book. And I was like, babe, I don't think that's a good idea. You use that, you're opening yourself up to attack by using that word. And we did some research and there's a crazy amount of lawsuits that go on. Just in the cheese realm alone, like you can't even use the word gorgonzola or Parmesan

• 1:40:23Rich Roll?

  or mozzarella, like even, not saying cheese, but like anything that comes close to arguably confusing a well-intentioned customer as to the origin, like the ingredients of the product. And basically, what I see in that is, and you saw it with Hampton Creek, Just, and the mayonnaise wars and all these things that are going on. And it's really a desperate attempt to try to stave off this tidal wave that's coming no matter what.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  And desperate is the word. You would be desperate because we're making food that tastes the same, looks the same, smells the same, no one died, better for the environment, and will be a competitive price. They must be freaking out, man. Actually, just about that, you just reminded me of, you know, we're not allowed to use these specific words, but I really appreciate that sometimes it goes the other way and the egg industry isn't legally allowed to use any word that classifies eggs as healthy or any word that resembles the word healthy. So sometimes it also goes.

• 1:41:24Rich Roll?

  Is that true? I didn't know that.

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I watched that on a Dr. Greger video, I'm pretty sure.

• 1:41:28Rich Roll?

  Wow. Yes, well, interesting times indeed, but like, I'm still, I'm still back in this moment where you're like.

• 1:41:36Speaker 01

  I haven't started my vow of silence yet.

• 1:41:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know, you're like in a year of silence, like just the practical.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  I'll run you through it. I'll run you through it. All right, sorry, man.

• 1:41:43Rich Roll?

  I mean, how often do you meet somebody who went a whole year without saying a word? Come on, dude. And you're so eloquent and well-spoken, like, all the more challenging, I would imagine.

• 1:41:52Speaker 01

  I think it helped me. I think it helped me with that. So.

• 1:41:55Rich Roll?

  You're just compensating now.

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  Pretty much. I haven't shut up since, to be honest. I um, cause you know, like, everyone makes that joke, oh, how do you know someone's good? How do you know when someone's vegan? Don't worry, they'll tell you. I went vegan. I didn't tell anybody verbally for a year. But. The only vegan that ever done that.

• 1:42:11Rich Roll?

  Verbally, but but perhaps you told them in a way that was even more. I mean, you went from.

• 1:42:16Speaker 01

  It was cool.

• 1:42:16Rich Roll?

  A dude who was five minutes vegan and nobody knew who you were to one year later. At the culmination of that one year period going on on on television that just, you know, created like, you know, a huge viral moment on the internet.

• 1:42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm really glad that happened. So, yeah, I spent that year in silence. I traveled around. I, you know, I attended sanctuaries to volunteer. And I also went into a lot of factory farms under the cover of night to see if it really was as bad as. You know, I'd been told in my country in Australia and what I realized immediately after going through dozens of them is that it is at least as bad as what I thought it was. And it is at with numbers that are just beyond comprehension. So that really fueled my fire. And um, yeah, I was writing everything down. Then when I realized that I could use body language and I started, basically it was a year long game of charades. I also um, moved my mouth so that people could lip read without speaking to make things easier. And that that changed the whole game.

• 1:43:15Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  That, yeah, so.

• 1:43:17Rich Roll?

  That's almost like cheating.

• 1:43:18Speaker 01

  It was, it was, it was a, it was the hack. It was the hack. I was still voiceless, which was my vow.

• 1:43:23Rich Roll?

  Were you sending a lot of emails?

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  I was on, yeah, I was writing a lot of emails for sure. I did a lot of, I did a lot of FaceTime with people like trying to make it work. My brother was really good at that. Anyway, so um, I ended up also, my van broke down halfway into my journey and it was really cool, man. I was just, you know.

• 1:43:40Rich Roll?

  You can't go a year uh, without without using words unless you have a van.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  Totally, yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:46Rich Roll?

  Of course, you got a van.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  And you also can't wear shoes very often.

• 1:43:49Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so anyway.

• 1:43:51Rich Roll?

  Treadlocks optional.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. My van broke down. Um, I ended up hitchhiking like two thousand kilometers up to Darwin. And I I flew over to Bali because I wanted to get some tattoos. I got my arm covered, my arms covered in animal rights tattoos. They all, they kind of tell the whole story, really. Um. There's some quotes, there's some pictures.

• 1:44:10Rich Roll?

  So you had no tattoos before this?

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  I had tattoos, just not on my arms. Um. And yeah, I just wanted them to tell the whole story. So when people say, what are your arm tattoos about? They can sit down and they can see the picture of the lion and it says lions kill for need, humans kill for greed. Or the picture of the cow getting slaughtered by the slaughterhouse worker and it says, Auschwitz begins whenever someone looks at a slaughterhouse and thinks they're only animals. And there's a whole bunch of them like that. There's a photo of me, um, in a, in a mask after we just done a chicken rescue, rescued about two hundred little chicks. And it says, we are fighting until every cage is empty, not until every cage is comfortable. And yeah, there's a bunch more like that. So.

• 1:44:48Rich Roll?

  Hardcore, man.

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's cool. It's good. It's so fun. It was nice to, you know, you, you see so much of the cruelty and violence on Facebook. And for a long time I was just taking footage and videos and, um, and photos of it. And then when we started doing rescues, then you hear all those little birds chirping in the back of the car as you're driving away. And you're just, it's such a good feeling. Small, like you left so many behind. But to them, to those, to those individuals, it means everything. And yeah, I ended up, I, I, um, I hitchhiked to Darwin. I went and got those tattoos. I came back and I cycled five thousand kilometers, about three thousand mile from Darwin through the outback to Sydney.

• 1:45:32Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's a long way.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Oh, it was long. It was long and it was painful. Not along the coast, straight through the, straight through the middle.

• 1:45:40Rich Roll?

  For people that don't know, Darwin is the northern tip, right, of Australia?

• 1:45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I had to come down and then across. And it was just long stretches of straight road with no cars, by myself. You know, in the middle of nowhere, just, I'd have to cycle. Usually it was about a hundred, a hundred and twenty Ks.

• 1:45:58Rich Roll?

  Made it easier to not have to talk, though.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  It was the best. I didn't have to do all this charade game anymore. It was such a nice break. Cause by six months.

• 1:46:06Rich Roll?

  Unless you broke down and you're in some little village, right? You gotta like, you need some help. Why won't this guy talk to you?

• 1:46:12Speaker 01

  Everyone thought, are you deaf or something? Like, oh, jeez. But I just, I had cards written up. I'm taking the E-Long Vow of Silence to raise awareness for animals and promote peace over violence. I just give it to them. Like, oh, okay, this is, that's even weirder. I was reading this guy. Um, it, it, you know, what was cool though, it spurred the conversation, even though I had to have it nonverbally. I still was getting pretty good at communicating and every single person that came into contact with me during that year, they asked, why are you voiceless? And so vegans always want an opportunity to talk about this. We're just waiting to slip it into the convo. This gave me an opportunity to bring it up at any time and just be like, yeah, this is what I've done. And then, you know, you can watch this documentary. I had a bunch of DVDs I was giving out at the time. Um, and yeah, I was cycling across Australia. It was one of the most painful things I've ever done because my seat was

• 1:46:57Speaker 01

  like so firm, man. And the guy who sold it to me, I'm like, are you sure about this seat? You know, I'm just, you know, doing my nonverbals. And he said, yeah, man, it's a good seat. I was like, all right. And the whole way I was thinking about this guy, like if I ever see you again, I've been so much pain. My ass was killing me. My legs weren't too bad. And I also just wanted to show, you know, you can be healthy, fit and strong and do cool things like that on a plant-based diet. I did it all by myself. I get back to Australia, I get an email from, oh, sorry, I get back to Sydney. I get an email from Sunrise, the morning TV show. And they said, would you like to break your vow of silence on our show? We, we call it onto your story. And

• 1:47:34Rich Roll?

  How did they, were you, from your blog or were you getting press around this?

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  I had a few, I had a few news, um, you know, newspaper interviews and I'd done a bunch of interviews for some online stuff, but I don't know how they got onto it actually. Maybe someone wrote in, like it was about to end and, you know, I had a bunch of people following my journey by then.

• 1:47:53Rich Roll?

  And this is like Good Morning America or the Today Show in the United States?

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  It's the most popular one in Australia. It's called Sunrise. So anyway, at first I was thinking, man, no way. I just want this year to be over. You know, I'm so sick of it. It was hard, you know, being voiceless and, um, just writing a blog nearly every single day. And yeah, that whole cycling trip. So, but, you know, initially I was thinking, nah, I don't wanna, I was so nervous, man, to, um, to speak for the first time on TV.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  And talk about something so important and talk on TV for the first time, which is something I was really not confident in doing. I didn't even wanna go on the radio to promote my thing before it started. I was just not confident in that way at all at the time.

• 1:48:36Rich Roll?

  Were you worried that your voice might not work?

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  Totally. I didn't know what was gonna happen. He was people had told me all these stories. Oh, I knew someone that didn't speak for a while and they they couldn't speak when they tried to again. And I don't know, just a bunch of crap.

• 1:48:47Rich Roll?

  But you had plenty of time to figure out what it was exactly that you were gonna say.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  You would think I would have thought about it more, except I what I did, you know, I ended up saying, yeah, you know, I I will do this. My vow officially finished January first, two thousand and fifteen as the clock struck midnight. But I said, well, I don't wanna go on to your show that morning, because everyone's gonna be, you know, still partying and they're not gonna watch your show that day. Or maybe they will, but I just figured it would be better to do it on another day. There's already something special happening that day. And I waited, I said, what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do a ten day meditation course, another Vipassana, which I think was my third at that time. And I went there, starting January first, I did my ten day meditation. That's where I figured out what I wanted to say. And I spent a lot of

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  that meditation just really crafting this this plea, basically. And then when I when I went on their show, it was the day after. I I did, I did say one thing, I did say one thing before that. When the clock struck midnight, I was seeing this girl at the time, and she'd never heard me speak. So.

• 1:49:51Rich Roll?

  How did that work?

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  Well, it was great, because I never was getting myself in trouble. I think it got worse when I started talking again.

• 1:49:59Rich Roll?

  That's hilarious.

• 1:49:59Speaker 01

  So we, we were watching the fireworks in Sydney, and then I gave her a hug, gave her a kiss, and just said her name. And then I just was silent again. So I I said that, but then I shut up again for the next ten days. I went to my Vipassana, I come out, I sit on their on their, you know, at their show. And I said, all right, drum roll, please, James, what are your first words gonna be? And I non verbally mouthed to them with my body language and all that. I said, I want you to ask me why. And they said, oh, okay, James, why did you do this? And I said, thank you for asking. And it sounded like this, thank you for asking.

• 1:50:40Rich Roll?

  Was it, yeah, really?

• 1:50:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:41Rich Roll?

  Was it raspy?

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  Totally, man, it was, it was.

• 1:50:44Rich Roll?

  It's online, you can, you can find it on the internet. I'll put a link in the show notes up to it.

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I said, thank you for asking. The reason I took this vow of silence was to raise awareness for the voiceless victims of this planet, the animals. We all say we love animals and we're against animal cruelty. Yet we pay people to mutilate and torture and slaughter them. And it's not for any necessity, it's not because we need to for our health, it's because we like the way they taste. So I went voiceless because they're voiceless, I thought. But then I realized they're not actually voiceless. They cry in pain and they scream in terror. And when they do that, they're telling us that they're suffering. But the problem is we're not listening because they're covered in feathers or scales or wings or fur. So we don't take their suffering seriously. I also did this to raise awareness for the way I've been living my life. I'm vegan, which means I don't consume any animal products. I don't support any animal exploitation.

• 1:51:30Speaker 01

  And I wanted to show people through my journey how easy that is, how healthy that is, how delicious the food is. And that if you think violence is wrong, then veganism is right. And that.

• 1:51:44Rich Roll?

  How did that go down?

• 1:51:46Speaker 01

  They just looked real shocked, like, huh?

• 1:51:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  People were eating their, this is like breakfast TV, people were eating their bacon and eggs. I was like, what did this guy just say, man? I think it was, you know, I don't think they were expecting kind of a message like that. And at that time, I hadn't really heard about any sort of strong vegan messages being on TV, um, in Australia at least. And, you know, before I knew it, like, that was pretty much the only question they asked. I just sort of said, oh, how does it feel to be talking? And I'm like, I don't know, I actually expected some dialogue on what I'd said. They didn't, they didn't, um.

• 1:52:15Rich Roll?

  They didn't bite on that?

• 1:52:15Speaker 01

  Not at all, man. And I was, I was like, I left there a minute later, I was like, what the hell just happened? We didn't even talk about it, I just said something, I hope it was good. And, you know, I didn't know. And then I look at my phone and it's just blowing up with messages and calls and other radio stations and all this. And I thought, oh, okay, cool. And, you know, it was great that it was short and they didn't answer, you know, we didn't talk about it. It was just a short interview, just planted a solid.

• 1:52:42Rich Roll?

  Super concise.

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Totally. Kind of said it, said it everything I could really say in a short amount of time like that.

• 1:52:48Rich Roll?

  And they're like, okay.

• 1:52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, anyway, next on.

• 1:52:52Rich Roll?

  And what was the commercial right after that? Or like, you know?

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  Imagine. So, yeah, that ironically gave me a voice.

• 1:53:02Rich Roll?

  That, that was seen like, it's been seen like millions of times, right?

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Millions of times, yeah. Even in the last three months, and that was four years ago now, it's, it's been seen an extra five million times on my YouTube. And I put it on quite late on my YouTube, but I think it, I'd say it's at least fifteen million, probably more times. Uh, it's been used in a lot of really cool documentaries and different things. Um, so yeah, it's been, it was a really great man. And, you know, it was just, it was just one, it was just me, just one guy who is no expert at anything, just having a crack at it. And thankfully, it, it turned out real well. I got on media like I wanted and like I'd hoped and said what I wanted to say. It all came out fairly okay. And in a, you know, my voice worked, which was good. And then,

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  um, yeah, then people started asking me to come around and do speeches. And I started talking about my journey and people came up to me after saying, whoa, that was great. I went vegan. I just went vegan. I'm like, what? Because of what I just said? And they're like, yeah. And I said, oh my God, okay, this is what I need to do. I'm gonna tell the story now. And since then, yeah, there's been some other videos that have got over, you know, ten and twelve and thirteen million views of me talking about my journey. And and yeah, it's, it's been, um, so that's why I've been doing so much traveling.

• 1:54:13Rich Roll?

  Right. So when you were in the midst of the, the year-long vow of silence, I mean, was there a sense like, okay, this is what? I'm going to create a life out of like

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 1:54:24Rich Roll?

  There's one thing to feel strongly about about an issue and to do something significant to be heard on that. And it's a very different thing to then craft, you know, basically, for lack of a better word, like a career trajectory out of a message.

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  Totally. Well, I tried to go back to being a personal trainer because I was totally broke by the end of that year around Australia. And, you know, I'm helping people who just need to lose a few kilos or want to put on a bit of muscle. And meanwhile, I'm in about 10 different discussions online about why people should go vegan, in my opinion, and why they would agree if they just had seen what I've seen and things like that. And I just, I'm watching my phone just light up every couple of minutes. And meanwhile, I'm counting somebody's repetitions. And I just thought, you know, I've done this job for a long time and I love this job and it is very fulfilling. But the victims need people very dedicated to this. They deserve that. And as

• 1:55:23Speaker 01

  somebody who has the privilege to know, then I felt like I had the duty to really dedicate and just do what I could. So that's when I kind of said, okay, I don't know what I'm going to do and how I'm going to make this work, but I'm just going to say yes to every opportunity and and go from there. And that's pretty much what I've done since I've, there's the only times I've turned things down is when I've already got something booked. And, you know, I've, I've sold T shirts to, to, you know, get ahead, or not get ahead, but kind of just break even, really. I've slept on many different couches. And, you know, I just try to do it as cheaply as possible. Since, you know, just this year, I started a Patreon account. That's been really helpful.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  I was hesitant creating that because I didn't want people to think I was doing this for, you know, the wrong reasons and to make money. And I just didn't want to affect, you know, potentially my integrity. But at the end of the day, like activists need support. And, you know, I'm doing all my speeches for free. So there has to be a way and people are more than happy to donate a couple of dollars a month. There's been

• 1:56:33Speaker 01

  Has been so much good from it, from traveling and, you know, speaking to so many other activists and at so many universities and making some viral content. And I'm really, I'm really, really grateful to have, because it was a, it was a leap of faith, you know.

• 1:56:49Rich Roll?

  Huge leap of faith.

• 1:56:50Speaker 01

  Totally, man, like, you know, it's been five years.

• 1:56:52Rich Roll?

  Like, I'm gonna be an advocate for the, the voiceless or the muzzled.

• 1:56:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:58Rich Roll?

  Depending upon how you look at it. And, uh, I'm just gonna make it work somehow. And the fact that you have made it work, I mean, it's amazing. So on a practical level, basically, you, you've given like 500 speeches in the last couple of years. You don't charge for these speeches, but I would imagine they pay for your airfare or whatever, right?

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:19Rich Roll?

  And then you have Patreon and then you sell, um, T-shirts and through those two avenues, you're able to like make it work and live this nomadic lifestyle where you're just a full-time voice piece.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  Totally. And, you know, I didn't really know what I was working towards as well. I was like, okay, am I just gonna put my life on, on hold here and just, just speak about this and do this thing? And, you know, obviously I was happy to, um, but there's so many skills I've learned along the way and there's so much, yeah, so much growth that's happened in me that it's been invaluable for sure. And even just the act of, okay, I don't know how I'm gonna make this work, but I just really want to make this work and I hope I can make this work. I'm just gonna take a leap of faith and I didn't fall, you know, I, I flew kind of thing. And it was just a really great lesson to just follow.

• 1:58:04Rich Roll?

  And, and stepping into it without knowing all the answers, right?

• 1:58:08Speaker 01

  Barely any of the answers.

• 1:58:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, just beginning, I think is super powerful.

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think, you know, just, man, I want every activist to be able to do it. Like, I know there's so many activists who would love to work and, and travel as much as me and do as many speeches and, and do everything in this. Many that do as much or even more probably that don't get any support and don't have a Patreon and things like that. I, I wish I was, you know, I wish everyone was making it work as well because it's just such an important job and it's one that, there's this kind of mentality. In in the vegan community, almost like, no, you shouldn't make money off this. But people, it's it's one thing to make money working to help create a vegan world. And it's another thing to be making money off the backs of animals.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  And they're two completely separate, in fact, running in the opposite direction of each other things. Um, I think there's a bit of confusion with that. So, yeah, I I think it's, I think it's great if you can find your passion and you're making a positive difference in the world. And you can support yourself doing that, then of course, that's what you should be doing.

• 1:59:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And in order to do that, though, you have to make some choices about the lifestyle that you're willing to live. Like, you gotta, you gotta cut some things, right?

• 1:59:21Speaker 01

  No doubt about it. Absolutely, there's, yeah, there's a lot of sacrifices made along the way, and you just weigh it up each time.

• 1:59:27Rich Roll?

  So when you're going out, you're giving these talks, you're meeting a lot of people, you're doing the activism work, you're at the vigils. What have you, how has your perspective evolved over the last four or five years? Like, what do you know now that maybe you didn't even know a year ago?

• 1:59:43Speaker 01

  A lot. I think it's changed a lot. I used to be a lot more, like I think I mentioned earlier, a lot more of a hard ass about it. You know, if you drink dairy, this is your fault and graphic footage kind of thing. Like, and that is probably a tame version of what I would have actually said. Although, you know, I was just, I was just trying to find my feet and trying to do the cause justice, do the animals justice. Um, what I realize now is that anger isn't necessarily, you know, they don't want you to be angry. They just want you to be effective, right? That's more important than showing all your passion about it. Be pragmatic about it, be effective about it. Um, I think I was much more, you know, there were certain philosophies in animal rights, you know, animal rights theories that I

• 2:00:28Speaker 01

  once believed that now I don't, which were a lot more, like, for example, Francio, and I used to.

• 2:00:32Rich Roll?

  Right, or like Peter Singer, like, super hardcore, or like, what?

• 2:00:36Speaker 01

  More like, more like, we can only promote. Veganism, if you do a single issue campaign, like for example, against dolphin slaughter in Tajee, and don't make that a vegan campaign, you're making out, you're implying that dolphins are more important than other species. Um, if you, if you fight against fur and not leather, you're implying that fur must be much worse than leather. And like, there's some merit to some of these arguments, I think, but overall, I think certain people will just, they already love dolphins or they're already against fur. And if that's what gets their foot in the door, and then they can learn the rest of the message and take more steps, then it clearly works, because I've, I've met so many people that that's worked for.

• 2:01:16Speaker 01

  Um, I think as well, especially recently, I've become a lot more, you know, I wouldn't have ever recommended steps before. If people take steps, that's up to them. But I would have always said vegan, that's the goal, that's what you need to do, do it and hurry up. Where now I'm sort of just like vegan, that's the goal, of course, it's the goal, but here's an option of the way to get up the mountain. And here's another option, and you could try this way, and whatever way, here's all these ways, so just get moving on the path.

• 2:01:43Rich Roll?

  I heard, uh, Francion give a talk once, and he's like, everyone wants to, you know, when he's, he's addressing this issue of like, the process, you know, of taking steps, which he's super, you know, has a big issue with. And he's like, everybody's on their journey. They want to talk about their journey. He's like, fuck your journey.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  He's hardcore, man. And I think there's a place for that, too.

• 2:02:04Rich Roll?

  Well, there is. I mean, when you, when you look at it, you know, the thing that I'm most sympathetic, um, when it comes to his perspective, is, is this idea of, of humane meat, right? Like, we're in a moment right now where if you go to Whole Foods or a natural food market, um, there's a lot of very crafty, uh, marketing around making people feel better about making this choice of, of eating animal products, um, by injecting it with this sense of goodwill, because these animals are being treated more, more fairly. Um, so I want to break down the reality of that, but psychologically, what Francion would argue, and I think there's merit to this,

• 2:02:49Rich Roll?

  is that by making people feel better about making this choice, you're actually moving them away from the direction that you're trying to drive them, which is getting them off of these products altogether.

• 2:02:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. I think that's, that's true for some people, definitely. And. That's why it's just, you gotta, I think it always helps to think about it in human context. Is there a humane way to murder? Is there a humane way to abuse a child? Is there humane slavery? And the answer is obviously no. So why do we think there's a humane way to murder other species? Why would we use a word that literally means to show compassion next to a word that means the same as murder? It just doesn't make any sense. Um, and yeah, it's just clever marketing just to make people feel better about their choices. But there's no right way to do the wrong thing. And a lesser of two evils is still evil. Of course, it's better not to torture them first, just like it's better not to torture slaves.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  But having slaves is still inherently immoral. And needlessly slaughtering animals for foods and products that not only we don't need, but that we're far better off without is also inherently immoral.

• 2:03:58Rich Roll?

  People don't like to be told that they're immoral for making this choice.

• 2:04:02Speaker 01

  I know, I think that people are good. And I have so much optimism in people's ability to adapt with new information and change, and to make better choices and to confront, you know, the way that they live. I, cause I've done it myself and I know so many people who've done it and people do it every single day. Um, and yeah, it might be a little bit uncomfortable to hear at first, but I just want anyone to know who's listened to this. I don't think that anyone who's eating meat, dairy and eggs is a bad person. I think that you most likely just uninformed or you've got some habits, um, just like I did. And I'm sure that if you knew, um, you know, more about it and about how to change it,

• 2:04:46Speaker 01

  you probably would, because that's just what logically a person with, with any, a trace of compassion would do. So, and I think that, yeah, people, I, I see people as victims, you know? They're victims of a society that has basically brainwashed them. And we're trying to just, you know, a lot of what my job is, is rectifying the.

• 2:05:10Speaker 01

  Misconceptions that people have and you know, people have all these beliefs that and so many of them are wrong.

• 2:05:16Rich Roll?

  What do you think is the biggest misconception that people have that is the most difficult for you to combat?

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  Oh, the the God one for sure is the hardest one. I mean, because you're not really arguing with just, just about about the logic of the situation.

• 2:05:33Rich Roll?

  The dominion issue.

• 2:05:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, but just in general that God said this and God said that, you know, and I think that that's a really hard one to combat because you can pick and choose things in any text and go, oh, I I interpret it this way, I interpret it that way. And to to suit the way that you want to live to, you know, to justify your choices. And people do that all the time, especially on this issue. I think that's definitely the hardest one. Um, because one, I'm not that savvy with the the texts of religions. I just try to, you know, reach people's heart and just and just put try to put people in that situation. I think that's a big one. But I also think that just the the superiority complex that we have, thinking we are so

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  much better than every other species and that they don't matter and we can do what we want because they're not intelligent or because this and that, like the question people need to ask is what is so different between human animals and non-human animals that if we were to kill a human, we would think it is so bad. And yet, if we were to do the same thing to a non-human, it is classified as dinner and often a celebration. There must be a very big difference between us and them for us to justify such cruel behavior, such cruel acts. So what is it? And what you'll find if you do ponder that question is that there's actually no real

• 2:07:05Speaker 01

  difference, you know, just because they look different really is what it comes down to.

• 2:07:09Rich Roll?

  Well, the bigger battle is getting people to actually wrestle with that question to begin with, because we really don't want to ask ourselves that question. And and we've created a system to to uh, prevent us from asking ourselves that question with all these barriers that disconnect us from the source of where our food comes from. And so what happens is that produces a lot of cognitive dissonance because. We rationalize this choice that we're making. We do it reflexively and unconsciously. We, we go out of our way to avoid having to confront that reality, which creates that dissonance, which creates a low vibration, kind of, you know, weird feeling in all of us because we're no,

• 2:07:53Rich Roll?

  we know we're making a choice that's at odds with our core values, which is to be compassionate. And so unraveling that knot becomes tricky and difficult. And you just lay it out and like, you know, in a, in a, I wouldn't say confrontational, but in a very plain spoken manner.

• 2:08:12Rich Roll?

  And I think for a lot of people, it's the first time that they've ever even thought about it.

• 2:08:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want to be surprised.

• 2:08:18Rich Roll?

  And it's not, it's not anyone's fault because this is the system in the society in which we live in.

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  I guess what I'd say is this, just to add to some encouragement, aside from watching the documentaries like Earthlings or Dominion, which is a new one.

• 2:08:30Rich Roll?

  I still haven't seen Dominion.

• 2:08:31Speaker 01

  Well, that's.

• 2:08:32Rich Roll?

  I don't know why.

• 2:08:33Speaker 01

  You probably don't want to.

• 2:08:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. No, I do, I do want to. I mean, I would say Earthlings was a tough one for me. Made by our mutual friend Sean Monson. I mean, that's, you mentioned it earlier. It's, it's, it's, it's hard to take that leap of faith and watch that because it's just truth on a level that a lot of people aren't prepared for.

• 2:08:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you're going to feel probably compelled in one way or another to start making changes and change feels hard. But I guess what I would say is that, you know, like it might take a little bit of adjustment, but going vegan is so much easier, especially now than you would think. And the food is incredible. Like people go vegan and become foodies because vegan food is amazing. And you feel so good and you're doing such a good thing for your health and you're probably going to live longer and you probably, you potentially get off some medications and, you know, just potentially reverse diseases. Like there's so much good here. If you forget the animals,

• 2:09:29Speaker 01

  forget the environment, just you as an individual, living this life is, is totally soul transforming and such a positive thing. And you just shine brighter and feel so good. And you become more aware of what's going on in this world and more aware of who you share this world with. And just gives you a different glimpse of, you know, what it means to be an earthling. And yeah, it's just, it's such a cool thing, man. Like there's so much to it when you, when you do. You know, reconnect to your compassion. Like, we already have compassion. Einstein said,

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  we will, what did he say? He said, um,

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  about compassion. Hang on, hang on. He said a couple of things. He said, nothing will benefit human health and our chances for survival more than the evolution to a vegetarian diet, which back in the day was a vegan diet. And like when he said it, and he also said, we must free ourselves, and our task is to widen our circle of compassion to embrace all of nature and all living creatures. And yeah, it does free you. It frees you in a way that's sort of hard to explain, but I think every vegan can feel it.

• 2:10:43Rich Roll?

  It's something that we haven't done as a species. And it's something that's so abundantly clear when you're in an airplane and you're looking down, particularly if you're flying at night and you're flying over a city and you see all the lights and you see what humans have done to this planet. It's so shocking, you know? And, and when you lay that on top of this current landscape in which we're in the midst of this insane healthcare crisis, one out of every three Americans will die of heart disease, one out of every two Americans will contract some form of heart disease, something like seventy to eighty percent of Americans are obese or overweight, fifty percent of Americans will soon be diabetic or prediabetic.

• 2:11:26Rich Roll?

  The cancer numbers are through the roof, the childhood obesity numbers are through the roof, depression is our number one disability, stress and anxiety are epidemics. And then, let's look at the environmental implications of how we live. And when we assess the truth behind animal agriculture, we realize that it's contributing to the greatest mass species extinction event in human history.

• 2:11:53Rich Roll?

  It's polluting our water tables, it's acidifying our oceans, it's emitting more greenhouse gas emissions than than all the transportation sector combined. It uses more land and it's more resource intensive than any other industry. It's just, it goes on and on and on, right? It paints a very grim pessimistic picture of the future of human health and the habitability of our planet for not just humans, but our animal friends alike. And it's easy to become despondent and pessimistic about the prospects for the next generation and the generation to come. You're a very optimistic guy. You're very passionate about what you're talking about. So how do you think about our chances for the future?

• 2:12:38Rich Roll?

  And and what things are going to look like in, you know, 2030 and 2050?

• 2:12:44Speaker 01

  I I'm optimistic because I see change happening every single day. And I think the thing that'll probably sell it, that'll probably win it is just that these food alternatives are going to be just as accessible and just as affordable and right next to the ones that we know are so bad for us and the planet and the animals. So I think that honestly, people will just get on a plant-based diet before they'll have a vegan ethic in their heart. And I I just, I guess I'm optimistic, although I don't know, but I hope that, you know, there's enough people working on this that will make it happen before we lose, you know? We lose a lot and we make some irreparable damage.

• 2:13:27Speaker 01

  And we lose a lot of, a lot more species. So I don't know what's going to happen, man. I just fight, I just fight it. Like, I do this every day because I know that's my part to do. And I know there's so many other people out there doing it. And we're such a passionate bunch, you know, where there's, and people are passionate about it for different reasons. So I just think there's so many, there's so many passionate people, extremely passionate people working on it, that I hope we can figure out a way that, okay, maybe not everyone's gonna, you know, be aware of what speciesism is and see all animals as equal kind of thing. But perhaps they will be aware enough to choose the beyond meat

• 2:14:07Speaker 01

  instead of the, you know, the the corpse, the cut-up body part. And I think it's no coincidence that

• 2:14:16Speaker 01

  What we're doing right now is bad for us and bad for the animals and bad for the planet. We kill them, they kill us, you know, and I think it's also no coincidence that when we do good for them, we are doing better for ourselves and better for the planet.

• 2:14:34Rich Roll?

  It's almost as if nature rigged it that way.

• 2:14:37Speaker 01

  Kind of like that. I think nature's trying to tell us something.

• 2:14:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I want to wind this down on an optimistic note, and that is this. We, all of us want greater power and agency in our lives. And I think that there is a huge swath of the human population that feels very disenfranchised. They feel like they lack power in their own lives. They feel like the world is passing them by. And I think in order to bring some of that sense of agency back into your life, it's important to understand that all of us do have power and that each individual, no matter

• 2:15:22Rich Roll?

  where you sit or find yourself in society, can exercise that power three times a day with the choices that you make about the food that you're putting on your plate. It may seem like a small thing, but as you eloquently explained earlier, it is the furthest thing from a small thing because that decision about what you're putting on your plate has downstream ramifications and impact that are as serious as murder. The decision as to whether this animal is going to live or die to be on your plate. And when you vote to remove those things from your plate and to put healthy plant-based foods onto your plate, you are taking a stand for a better world and a world that is better for all of us.

• 2:16:05Rich Roll?

  You are sidestepping out of this industry and its karmic impact. You're taking a stand for an animal's life or maybe multiple animals' lives, and that is extremely impactful. And I think if you can think about that decision that you make every single day, you will realize that that does give you a sense of agency in your life that perhaps can provide you with a more optimistic perspective on how you decide to live. This idea that We can't make a difference is illusory. And I think to divest ourselves of these decisions and sit back and wait for Elon Musk

• 2:16:43Rich Roll?

  to solve it is to further exempt yourself from that feeling of agency. Elon Musk wants to terraform Mars, and that's an amazing aspiration. And perhaps someday he will do that, and that's incredible. But why not terraform our own planet first? Let's stop waiting for somebody else to solve our problems, take ownership of them ourselves, and start making those changes in our own life, not from a perspective of being a martyr, but because it is empowering and because it will provide you with a sense of purpose and connectedness that maybe you lack in your own life. And I can speak only from my own experience, but it has been unbelievably enriching and

• 2:17:28Rich Roll?

  empowering in my own life. And from sitting across from you, hearing your story and knowing, just observing you over the years, it's more than obvious that this has been the case in your life. And I just want everybody who's listening to this to experience what you and I have had the good fortune of experiencing. And it's free. It's available to all, and it's not as hard or as tricky as you might think. It doesn't need to be expensive or complicated. And if you can take this leap of faith, even if you just try it for 30 days, we'll gladly refund you your former lifestyle after that 30 day period if you're not sold. And take a chance on it. I'm pretty confident that you will see in it and feel in it like what James and I have experienced.

• 2:18:13Speaker 01

  I am too, and that was extremely well said. Thank you so much.

• 2:18:16Rich Roll?

  Well, awesome to have you here today. It's been an honor to talk to you. And I wish you well on your journey and wind in your sails and keep doing what you're doing, my friend.

• 2:18:28Speaker 01

  Thanks, brother. Thanks for having me on, and thanks for all the amazing work you're doing to getting these messages out there.

• 2:18:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thanks, man.

• 2:18:33Speaker 01

  Making a big difference.

• 2:18:35Rich Roll?

  If people want to jump on your bandwagon, probably the best place for them to go is your Instagram, James Aspey.

• 2:18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, Instagram would be the good place. Facebook and my YouTube channel is James and Carly.

• 2:18:47Rich Roll?

  Cool. And where can they go to find the Patreon if they want to contribute?

• 2:18:52Speaker 01

  You can just write Patreon James Aspey.

• 2:18:55Rich Roll?

  And it pops right up.

• 2:18:56Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 2:18:56Rich Roll?

  That's how huge you are, dude.

• 2:18:59Rich Roll?

  Awesome, Matt. And are you doing any, um, public, like, where can people, if people want to come out and hear you, do your thing?

• 2:19:06Speaker 01

  Um, I'll be in New York next week.

• 2:19:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this isn't gonna go up for a little while.

• 2:19:10Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, then. Um, I just generally post about my schedule on my Instagram page, so people will be able to figure it out there.

• 2:19:16Rich Roll?

  Right on, dude.

• 2:19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's been a pleasure, man. Thanks so much.

• 2:19:18Rich Roll?

  Thank you. Peace. Plants.

• 2:19:26Rich Roll?

  Super cool. Really hope you dug that. I think James is doing amazing work and really deserves some support. So let him know what you thought of our conversation. At James Asby on Instagram. You can also find him on Facebook under his name and on YouTube as James and Carly, his girlfriend's name. Uh, if you really dig James and what he does, please consider supporting his work by donating to his Patreon account. I'll put a link in the show notes up to that. And while we're on the subject of show notes, please check them out on the episode page on my website to explore the depths of this guest and essentially every guest I have on the show beyond the audio experience of the earbuds. And again, you can watch this whole conversation on YouTube at youtube.com/richroll. If you

• 2:20:11Rich Roll?

  would like to support the work we do here on the podcast, just tell your friends about the show, about your favorite episode, screen grab it and share it on social media. Subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify. Please check it out on Spotify, especially if you're an Android user. Subscribe to the YouTube channel at youtube.com/richroll, Google Podcasts, basically wherever you listen to fine podcasts. Uh, leave a review on Apple Podcasts. That's very helpful. And you can support the show on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. As always, I want to thank everybody who helped put on this show today because I do not do this alone. Jason Camiello for production, audio engineering, show notes, interstitial

• 2:20:52Rich Roll?

  music, lots of behind the scenes stuff. This is his 201st episode, so thank you, Jason. Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for videoing and editing the show. Jessica Miranda for graphics. DK David Kahn for advertiser relationships and theme music as always by Anna Lema. Thank you for your support. Thanks for listening. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you back here in a couple of days with... Great and rather unique episode with a woman named Sarah Lee, who is an Iraq war veteran who rode 4,300 miles across the country to save herself and heal her PTSD. It's a fascinating story. I look forward to sharing that with you in

• 2:21:35Rich Roll?

  a couple of few. Until then, eat plants, not animals. Peace, plants. [music]