Elite Endurance Master Cam Wurf On Effective Training, Achievable Goals, The Power Of Consistency, & What It Takes To Win

Cam Wurf is a paragon of endurance athleticism, a professional cyclist for INEOS Grenadiers, and an Ironman champion. This conversation explores Cam’s training strategies for Kona, discussing endurance sports' evolution, performance metrics, and elite training transparency. Cam offers insights on peak fitness at 41, tech's impact, emerging talents, the current cycling and triathlon landscape, and more. His leadership and maturity yield a perspective on balancing the demands of grand tours with Ironman races, offering aspiring athletes a glimpse into high-level endurance sports. Cam's enthusiasm for pushing limits is infectious. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: NordicTrack: Transform your home fitness space with NordicTrack’s lineup of treadmills, bikes, rowers, and more 👉NordicTrack.com Momentous: 20% OFF all of my favorite products 👉livemomentous.com/richroll Squarespace: Use the offer code RichRoll to save 10% off your first purchase 👉Squarespace.com/RichRoll Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think 👉airbnb.com/host This episode is brought to you by Better Help: Listeners get 10% off their first month 👉BetterHelp.com/RICHROLL Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  Set goals that you know you can do and hit them, and then you'll often find you can do more, which is really great for morale.

• 1:15Rich Roll?

  Cam Werff is perhaps the most versatile elite endurance athlete in the world.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Anything you want to do, if you want to do it well, you've got to commit to it for a long period of time and continue to get better and better and better.

• 1:28Rich Roll?

  Truly a one-of-one, a guy who transitioned to professional cycling after a career as an Olympic rower, and now serves up domestique duties for the Ineos Grenadier squad while simultaneously racking up wins and podiums on the Ironman circuit as one of triathlons' all-time greats.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  You know, when we're in the race, it's like, you've got to do what you've got to do to get to where you need to be to give yourself a chance to try and win this thing.

• 1:55Rich Roll?

  This week, Cam returns to Kona to once again contend for the Ironman World Championship title. So I thought it would be super fun to have him back on the show to share his predictions on how this legendary race just might unfold, how he maintains world-class fitness at 40, as well as his enthusiasm for training and racing as a lifelong, full-time professional athlete, while also balancing his life as a husband and a father.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  I've been doing this for a lot of years and I've enjoyed doing long days of training since I was, you know, 15, 16 years old. It's one thing for people to copy what I do on a daily basis, but it's, they don't understand what was done in the past.

• 2:35Rich Roll?

  Cam is just absolutely emphaticable. His enthusiasm for live training racing is infectious. And this one, whether you're simply someone who's fitness curious, or you're a seasoned hardcore athlete, has invaluable takeaways for everybody.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  We're really at the cutting edge of the sport where we're just pushing the envelope. So it's quite difficult to sort of look at a blueprint and go, that's going to work. I mean, that might put you at a certain level, but if you want to win, you've got to really...

• 3:09Rich Roll?

  All right, we're rocking. So this is the most last-minute spontaneous podcast I've ever done. I just kind of like hit you up, what are you doing right now? And you came over because you're training in the neighborhood. In between workouts in your lead-up to Kona, man. So thanks for carving out a little bit of time.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, you got me on a good day. Not to give too much away to my opposition, but it's one of the few days of the week I only train twice.

• 3:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Oh, really? Usually it's three. Yeah. It's all day, every day. Yeah. Four workouts in a day. But you got to start toning it down a little bit. What are we, we're like two weeks out?

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, two and a half weeks now. So, I mean, it's...

• 3:47Rich Roll?

  Do you have a different, different kind of taper than the normal endurance athlete?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, I prefer to feel like I've, I need to keep the engine running. I feel like I'm not, I'm not good at sort of resting and I feel like I'm not doing enough. So it's, it's more of a

• 4:02Rich Roll?

  You're definitely, yeah, you're not doing enough, you're not doing enough, Cam.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 4:06Rich Roll?

  That's the problem.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I struggle, but I mean, Nike, you know, a big thing with the running and that, the, the running generally is still the cornerstone of, you know, the, the program, to be honest. And they've found with their experience with, with, with the running group, that that two to three week out block is where you get a lot of bang for your buck. And that's not saying, okay, you've got to do your biggest volume, but I think hitting your quality sessions, you know, is really key in that time. So I actually look forward to this period because yeah, it is like two weeks out, two to three weeks, you're getting tired. You know, you, you just want to rest and to rest up for the race, but you know, you're also excited to do those sessions that tell you where you're at.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Well, ideally you're excited to do those sessions, tell you where you're at because you're hoping they're going to tell you where you, you know, you're in a good place. So.

• 4:52Rich Roll?

  But as soon as you start to dial back a little bit, it's sort of worse before it gets better, right? You go through this fallow period where you feel like shit because your body's used to hitting it so hard. And it's a period of time in which you, you can't increase your aerobic capacity, but you can sharpen the tool and get a little bit faster. And you kind of work on those details and your speed.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I also find just the little things you start losing time for as you get tired in a training cycle. You know, your mobility, your, you know, your stretching, you know, reading a bit more, you know, just making sure things are organized. Um, I, I really start to nail those things. And then mentally I start to feel more prepared for the race by knowing that I'm doing those things properly as well. When they've sort of probably gone to the wayside, when you're just grinding out the, you know, the hours and hours in, in training. So, um, but yeah, I mean, that, that two to three week period is definitely exciting time. And then, yeah, it's funny you say that because it's so true. I mean, yesterday I went through that moment. I, I usually do basically a six day week, you know, I train sort of six days straight and, and every day has some sort of purpose.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  So by the time Time I get to Sunday, you know, I'm a bit tired.

• 6:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  And Monday is your day off and I really enjoy that day off. But then Tuesday, you think you sort of think you're going to feel amazing and fresh. But I generally would actually feel the worst. And then it's not till today or tomorrow.

• 6:12Rich Roll?

  Body's not used to being turned off. Like, what are you doing?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  It's like more like today and tomorrow where I start to feel that rest day really kicked in, you know? And you have a nice period in the middle of the week and then it's all of a sudden you're hanging on to get it at the end of the week. So I love it. I love it. I love going through all that.

• 6:28Rich Roll?

  What is, what is your message to the average or the aspiring runner, endurance athlete, triathlete? Who, you know, flips open Instagram and sees lots of videos about, you know, people talking about like, everything you ever heard is wrong. And here's the workout you need to do, or here's the product that you'll, you'll never be able to be competitive without. Like you've been around so long, you've seen trends come and go.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:53Rich Roll?

  Obviously, you know, you're receptive to new, good ideas and technologies that can help improve your performance. But what do you think people, where do you think people get confused? Or, or can kind of go awry in terms of like paying attention to that versus what you've learned and kind of earned over time? To know that work, what works?

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, the biggest thing is consistency. If you want to get to anything, I mean, people often start running and it hurts and so they stop. You know, that can take months. It can take even a year to get, to get on top of things like that. I mean, I, I think just understanding that it takes time. I mean, like anything you want to do, if you want to do it well, you got to commit to it for a long period of time and over a long period of time, you'll just continue to get better and better and better. I mean, with people with busy lives, they work and they do everything. I think it's important. And I had to do this myself this year with the cycling team because the last couple of years I get frustrated. I'd get called into a race, not that I'm annoyed about that, but I'm annoyed. I'm not swimming now. I'm not running is what I want.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  And, and I'd feel like I'm going backwards, whereas in reality I needed to realize, wow, I'm doing some of the biggest bike races on the planet. Commit to them and get as fit as you can, and then you can take that back into your Training, which is something I feel like I've done very well this year. And the key change I made was a few non-negotiables that are very attainable each week, like a few sessions, you know, that I know will ensure at worst, I stay where I'm at, but still will potentially keep me getting better. And inadvertently you end up actually being able to do more than that. So then you feel great about yourself. I think people often set expectations, whether it be diet extreme and training extreme or getting up at three AM or whatever. And when then you don't do it, yeah, and you feel like you're letting yourself down.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  I mean, set goals that you know you can do and hit them. And then if you're hitting them and you're hitting them comfortably, then you start to look and go, you know, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling like I'm getting fit or I feel like I can do that. And bounce back and train hard this week, you know, but it's really been a big change for me, you know, setting out these and more with during the cycling period, you know, okay, you want to get these three swims in a week. You want to get these two runs, you know, it was basically, I want to get a longer run in each week and one fast work, you know? And then if you can run after that, they can just be easy little whatever runs around the block just to keep everything moving. You know, a couple of gym sessions, because that's keeps everything. And then obviously when you're home, you can get back into your normal routine.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  You're never going to go backwards from that and the same with swimming. And I think for people, especially with their busy lives, you know, you just set, because I hear it a lot at swimming at Tower 26, a lot of guys, oh, I'm burnt out on this. I'm thinking, well, I'm not surprised, like I find it hard to get up at five forty five and come to the pool. You guys do this, go to work, have three kids, whatever else. I mean, that must be really exhausting, you know? So yeah, as I said, just set attainable goals and, and then you'll often find you can do more, which is really great.

• 9:56Rich Roll?

  And extend your, extend your timeline, maybe, right? Like everyone, they're thinking, I want to do this thing in six months or whatever. But if you start thinking in terms of years, I mean, big picture to me, and tell me what you think. To your point, like consistency is the most important thing. So create something that you can replicate every single day. That's not going to disrupt the rest of your life. And then any increase in volume or intensity beyond that, pick those moments wisely. And you need that. You need, you need those intense sessions. You need to increase your volume, but not to the point where it begins to threaten your ability to be consistent, right? So you have to do that like very gradually over time. And learn about what you can handle and what you can't handle, not just physically,

• 10:41Rich Roll?

  but in the context of all the other things that you're doing in your life.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Your health's your wealth. I mean, if you're sick and you're injured and whatever, you can't do anything. And so I

• 10:51Rich Roll?

  Have you ever been overtrained?

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Not to my knowledge. I mean, I'm probably constantly overtrained. I'm probably chronically overtrained.

• 10:58Rich Roll?

  No, you have way too much energy. Like you're in the middle of your training day. You pop in here, you're like, you know, you're just lit. The last time you did this, you came in, it was like nighttime, like it was like seven at night or something like that. And you threw down like four espressos and I felt like you could have talked for four hours. I think I texted you, I was like, did you sleep last night after that?

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, I, I, yeah, I don't think so. I've been, I, Kip Chogi is a great one to follow with that. I mean, it's always leave a little bit for tomorrow, you know, don't, um, what do they say, you know, train to race, don't, don't race to train. Yeah. So, and, and to do that, you need to make sure you have that month, you know, days and days and weeks and weeks and months and months and years and years.

• 11:41Rich Roll?

  Weekend hero, race day zero?

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Precisely. Yeah. So I think that's

• 11:45Rich Roll?

  But when you do these group rides though, everyone's like, you know, they've got it out for you.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 11:53Rich Roll?

  They want to measure themselves.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  More so when I was, you know, cycling, but I think now because they know I've probably come from swimming or something, it's a bit more. People are a bit more respectful, actually. Yeah, they actually kind of admire that you can go and do that, or you operate at that level, kind of in every discipline. But that's just, as I said, I mean, our sport is incredibly professional now and we're pushing limit. I mean, eight hours used to be great. Now, if you can't go 7:40 on an average day, you're not in it. And if you can't go 7:30 on a really good day, well, you're not going to win the biggest races. And that's happening consistently. And yeah, I'm really proud that I'm still able to be a part of the

• 12:38Speaker 01

  conversation. I'm sure none of the guys, you know, a lot, a lot of people would expect me to win, but I know they can't count me out either. So that's good.

• 12:46Rich Roll?

  One of the things that feels different, I don't know if it's this year specifically, but over like the last couple of years, but really, I think more so this year than any other year, and we were chatting about this a couple of minutes ago, is the transparency with which a lot of the elite athletes are sharing kind of what they're doing. So we've got Lionel Sanders, who's doing his, you know, famous vlog. I watched a couple of those episodes this morning, not even knowing that you were coming in today. And he talks a lot about, like, you literally get to see everything he does, and he shows his whoop scores and what he's eating and all that kind of stuff. And he also talks about his evolution with his relationship with his own training, like, going through periods where he was too influenced by what other people were doing and

• 13:30Rich Roll?

  learning how to like, figure out what works for him. And, you know, over, like, kind of looming over everybody's head is like what the Norwegians are doing, right? And there's this temptation, like, oh, they're doing all this next level stuff, like, I need to do that, or I need to do this. And maybe some of those things work, maybe some of them don't. But at some point, you have to like, figure out what works for you. And I see you as somebody who is a little old school in that regard. Like, you've been doing this for a long time. There are certain things we know work. And you can, to the point of sharpening your tool, there are other things out there that are kind of, you know, coming up in terms of science and technology, where you perhaps can get a little bit of a percent or two edge. But fundamentally, like, the work is the work.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I always like to use the the Nike, the carbon shoe evolution, you know, and and when that came out, it was basically designed to allow us to run more often at a higher level, which would make you fitter, you know, and stronger. It wasn't just like a magic pill you took and all of a sudden you ran faster. And so I've been doing this for a lot of years and I've enjoyed doing long days of training since I was, you know, fifteen, sixteen years old.

• 14:40Rich Roll?

  And you're forty now, right?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Forty one, yeah. So, you know, twenty five years I've been putting that stuff in the body. So it's one thing for people to copy what I do on a daily basis, but it's they don't understand what was done in the past. And and I think also what, you know, I kind of sensed you might have asked a question like this on the drive out and I was thinking about the sport and real, I mean, I think we're really at a cutting and a lot of it has been down in Norwegians, but I think a lot of us have had an input in this of the sport going to a new level, you know, even from my perspective with the bike, you know, that that did change when I came in and and obviously then the guys.

• 15:16Rich Roll?

  You could take it for granted for a long time that you were going to dominate on the bike and that's no longer.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  That's no longer the thing, but but what we saw was I kind of dominated and then guys learned how to ride as quick but still run as fast. So stay well ahead of me, you know, like, and then that so that and then that's just kept going. And that's sort of the swimming, as you know, it's very hard for that to move much. They're already at a very high level because most guys come from a very high swimming background and triathlon, swimming, they end up actually swimming less than than before. So the chances of that improving is is minimal, whereas the bike and the run. So as far as the training goes, we're really at the cutting edge of a sport where we're just pushing the boundaries. So the reality is there's no real science, there's no real blueprint, no one really

• 16:02Speaker 01

  knows, you know, from, there was probably Odeira previously, you know, where you Craig Alexander's and, you know, your Norman Stadler's and Chris McCormick's were winning Kona where there was like a bit of a pattern to it and it was who got it right. You know, we're finding now that like everyone's really pushing the envelope. So it's it's quite difficult to sort of look at a blueprint and go, that's going to work. I mean, that might put you at a certain level, but if you want to win. You've got to really try something different.

• 16:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  And so I think that's on the individual to be able to, and that's what I love about Lionel and the way he's approaching it now, listening to himself and understanding because, you know, some days you've got to work harder. Other days you've got to be like, no, I need to take it easier. And I know from a personal perspective, I feel like I've been much smarter this year of when I don't need to train hard, I'm not training hard, but when I do need to go, I really go. And, and that is probably been my biggest change more recently. But, you know, I'm able to do that, like you say, because, yeah, almost 25 years of base that I can rely on that I, I don't need to sort of be topping up on that part anymore. I can be tuning the engine a bit more.

• 17:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So when you say that's the biggest change, meaning you're doing more like threshold speed work than you have in the past?

• 17:20Speaker 01

  I definitely am doing more of, more speed work, more harder, more harder work, and then also much more easier work. I very rarely actually operate at the intensities that we race and I'm in at. You're either way above it or, you know, below it. Obviously there's a time and a place to teach the body and remind the body how to do that. But I've found that especially as I got older, it's very easy to get used to just grinding out the days. You know, you can get very good at just grinding, grinding, grinding, go at a decent pace for a long time. But at the end of the day, it, it doesn't maybe make you as sharp as what other guys are that are, that are coming into the sport, you know, from a more Olympic distance background or a speed background. So you need to evolve.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  And, um, yeah, and it's, and it's been really fun. You know, I mean, all this talk of VO2 and longevity. Exactly. I'm 41. I do want to live a long time. So absolutely, I want to keep my VO2. I had a great discussion about that with a guy, um, last night, um, a friend of mine who's, who's big in the altitude space. And we were talking about. You know, what I'm trying to do is just keep it at the optimal level.

• 18:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What is your VO2 max?

• 18:29Speaker 01

  So I'm still around six liters, bit over six liters. I actually did four tests in two days at Nike earlier in the year, um, back in February and it hasn't changed since I was, you know, first tested in, when I was 18 to 20. I mean, it's, it's bubbled along through different sports, ups and downs and whatever, but the baseline, the overall size. So then that equates to, you know, higher seventies if I'm a bit fat and in the off season to, you know, high eighties, maybe low nineties when I'm, you know, trimmed up and, and ready to go. It's not the hundreds like Christian, but um, yeah, I mean, it's pretty high and it's stayed that way for 25 years.

• 19:04Rich Roll?

  Right. An athlete at your level, like your VO2 max is pretty static, right? It's not something you need to like check that often. Like it kind of is where it's at. There's a lot of discussion now about VO2 max in the context of longevity, but in elite performance, I think there might be some confusion about the, the frequency with which like someone like yourself needs to test for that. And that came out in that podcast between Peter Attia and Todd A. Did you listen to that?

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:30Rich Roll?

  Where it felt like Peter was a little surprised that Todd A. doesn't really pay attention to that or think about that. But it wasn't surprising to me. Like he's, he, he, all he needs to do is test it like once every couple of years or whatever. It's like, that's not moving that much. Um, it's more about like heart rate and power and, and, and, and then, you know, on top of that, like HRV and things like that for recovery.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:51Rich Roll?

  But the other kind of shockwave that came out of that was the revelation that his like zone two pace is 340 watts.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:59Rich Roll?

  But guys like you have to be like around 300, right? It's not like, you're not, you're not like that much below something like that.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Well, no, we're not, we're probably even, I'm a bit bigger than him, so I can probably do more, to be honest.

• 20:11Rich Roll?

  What is your like normalized power in your zone two?

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I mean, I, to be honest, I don't do sessions like him, but if you look at an Ironman, some of my best bike splits, you know, where I've ridden quite well, been in shape have been 320, 330 watts. And you're doing that on a time trial bike. So you could probably add, you know, a certain number of watts, but then you're also running a two. Right, something marathon, you know, two fifty, two forty's marathon. So if you look at, and in theory, we're basically zone two, you know, I mean, my average heart rate in an Ironman is around one fifty to one sixty. So a bit above, of course, there's a bit of a racy element, but you're sort of sitting between that one forty, one sixty zone, you know, the whole day.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  So in theory, so that was very impressive to hear um his numbers, but also not really surprising. I think what's more impressive about Tadej's numbers, which is what people can't, would not really understand when they say it, but you know, he can do 500 watts for 20 minutes or something crazy like that. You know, I mean, that, that, that zone, I mean, honestly, there's a lot of people that can do that kind of power for that long. Um, maybe his repeatability at it might be at a higher level than most, but I would imagine that particularly in our sport, because it's very focused on that type of effort. I would imagine there's a lot of triathletes that are, you know, very similar to that, but, but where he separates himself, you know,

• 21:39Rich Roll?

  Those accelerations and then, and then his ability to quickly recover from those accelerations and get down into that zone two and feel comfortable.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  And do it again. That's, that's what for me really is setting him. I mean, I think we looked at Kipchoge, I mean, as, as the greatest endurance athlete for a very, very long time and still is, you know, I mean, obviously he had, he's had a difficult few marathons. I know he's determined to fight back and, and try and win again next year. And a guy like that, if they're going to line up, you'd never, you'd never count them out. But you'd have to say that at the moment, Tadej Pogacar is probably the greatest endurance athlete, showing the most amazing endurance sort of performances, you know, in that, that kind of space, when you talk about a high performance athlete.

• 22:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Um, I mean, I guess, you know, you've got Ingabritson and these other guys, but I think Pogacar and his dominance is, um, and the way he's doing it is

• 22:35Rich Roll?

  Quite a year for that guy.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Unreal.

• 22:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And just so great for the sport. He is just a great ambassador for the sport. He's, I listened to that. That podcast when I was doing the run I talked to you about the other day, I was, I, I listened to Ryan Holiday actually jogging up to Nike missile site and then I put on the Pogger Chart podcast, Peter Attia's to go, go down, down Westridge. But I just love the way he talked about Jonas Vinaigade and how, and it just shows the guy's intellect. That yes, he felt like Jonas said, he obviously had his crash and had his injury, but he was probably able to get back on the bike and train properly very quickly. Yet he acknowledged that the fact that he'd missed that time meant he was limited in his

• 23:17Speaker 01

  ability to back those efforts up where Tade had had the perfect preparation, bringing a Giro and training and whatever else, which gave him the ability to, to race at that level over three weeks.

• 23:29Rich Roll?

  But Jonas was seeing like his best numbers despite the crash and all of that.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:33Rich Roll?

  But his ability to respond to those surges, he just, he just couldn't match it.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  And, and, and do it again and again and again. And that's, but that's also, you know, Tade staying on edge, knowing I've got to probably still get better because Jonas next year will be better, you know? So yeah, no, he's just a, he's just a class act all around that guy. It's really fantastic for the sport.

• 23:51Rich Roll?

  Just beginning, you know?

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:54Rich Roll?

  It's like a whole new era.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were, again, you had this discussion all the time and it's all this about, you know, who's going to beat him or who's going to beat these guys in the tour. And I, and it's of my opinion, it's probably a guy most likely that we haven't heard of, you know? We might get some guys that decide to focus more on the tour, say like a Tom Pidcock or obviously Remco is already there. You know, there's a bunch of highly talented riders in the peloton that could potentially start challenging or, or being a part of the conversation. But as far as anyone that can maybe do what he's doing in the future, probably be maybe no one. I mean, it's taken a long time since

• 24:36Speaker 01

  he's arrived, but it's likely someone that we've never heard of because he is so good at the moment.

• 24:42Rich Roll?

  As somebody who, who mixes it, mixes it up in the peloton with these guys, Remco, Jonas, Tade, what do you see or know about who they are? Cause you know them personally that like maybe, you know, people like ourselves who just read about it and watch them on television, like don't understand about what, what distinguishes them and makes them so much better. And pitcock also.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, obviously, there's a bunch of them.

• 25:08Rich Roll?

  Especially after the Olympics and his mountain bike win, which was incredible.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, well, quickly, I took my son to that.

• 25:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know you were there.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I missed you were there.

• 25:16Rich Roll?

  I was in Paris, I was at the Red Bull House watching it live, but I couldn't get over to see it.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  It was unreal. I mean, the craziest thing was, so I'm running around with Wyatt, he doesn't really like, he's four, he doesn't really like the crowds. So we had good tickets, we could sort of move around where we wanted. And there was, there was this drop off and, you know, with the Olympic rings on, I thought, how cool to get a photo. So he's on there, I'm getting the photo, he comes along and I snapped the photos and I quickly kind of looked through them. And I, I see there's Tom off his bike mid-air jumping off this thing. So he'd like had the flat tyre.

• 25:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  You know, until that point, it was sort of seemed like a foregone conclusion, the race, like he got to the front, he was about to drop them and that was it. And he's mid, jumps off the bike last second, like the frame, he was probably half a foot from the edge and he's still on the bike. And somehow he gets off and jumps.

• 26:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Cause he knew that if he landed on that rim, it was probably going to explode it and it could have been really bad. So he obviously changed it and then the whole race dynamic just changed, but just to see what's his like determination to fight back and.

• 26:22Rich Roll?

  Claw's back, then gets passed again and then like.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  That was the crazy thing. He did that attack on that last lap that looked like it was done. And Koretsky responded and got back in front of him and Koretsky hits a tree and get, Tom gets passed, but then he passes him again. He looked just so much better than Tom and then Tom finds a way to, you know, brush part and I mean, to be there. And my son, you know, Tom's girlfriend, Bethany has babysat him when he was, when he was young, up until he was, you know, three, two or three years old. And so he spent a lot of time with her and Tom and he just like, to have that experience as that kid, like he knows Tom so well. You know, and still does see him a lot, you know, and to witness that.

• 27:04Rich Roll?

  Like what is happening? Yeah, like, wait, this is my babysitter? Like, I don't understand what's going on. Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  That's his Olympic experience, you know, like to know the guy that won.

• 27:12Rich Roll?

  Friends win gold medals.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Pretty much. Well, the next, a couple of days later, we went to watch the triathlon and obviously Hayden Wild is a guy in Andorra that I train with all the time. And his girlfriend Hannah spends a lot of time with us at the house. She stayed with us in Tassie. She came down for the half iron man there earlier in the year. So Wyatt again has spent a lot of time with them and we went and watched that and Hayden, it looked like he'd won that, you know, like Alex, he passed him in the, on the blue carpet. And he just, his, his, his perception of the Olympics. So since then, it's just been,

• 27:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Dad, I want you to go to the Olympics. I'm going to go to the Olympics. You know, Tom and Hayden are his heroes.

• 27:48Rich Roll?

  What's, what's the matter with you, Dad?

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Why weren't you there? And I say, okay, mate. Well, maybe we'll stick at it.

• 27:53Rich Roll?

  Long time ago.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll try and get to LA.

• 27:55Rich Roll?

  But last time we were here, and I know you've talked about it since, like you still have your eye on somehow getting into LA 28.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's a bit of an exciting development there. I mean, the rowing was one thing I thought about, but seeing the way the Olympic triathlon panned out, you know, with Hayden and Alex, they both actually basically had a helper. They had someone there to help them. You know, they had a guy that would swim basically pretty close to them and then put them in the position for the run. And I think that that type of event, particularly the Olympics, that's dynamic is going that way because there's very few guys that can win. You know, that are capable of it. And we've actually got a very exciting young prospect from Tasmania that I was, you know, that's so when I was home over the, over the, over the summer, Australian summer, Jack Woodbury's his name. He's 16, probably one of the best track runners we've seen at that age.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  He's just, he's actually doing the junior worlds next week. He's at 16. So in theory, he's got three years as a junior. Like he is phenomenal and LA potentially looms as being a, you know, quite a big favorite. I mean, if I could paint a script of a dream scenario, you know, to make the Olympic team and be able to help him. I mean, I, no idea if I'd be good enough. It would require a huge sort of shift in preparation and all of that, but it would be definitely something that would motivate me to try. You know, to, to, to be there to support him. Um, I mean, he'd only be 19, I'd be 45, 44. So, you know,

• 29:26Rich Roll?

  It's a great story though.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Especially being Tasmanian. So that's definitely something that is now. Yeah, got some fuel to the fire and makes me swim a little hard and run a bit quicker. You know, the things I'd need to do to try to make that happen.

• 29:49Rich Roll?

  So back to the original question, which is what makes those guys different from your like, you know, point of view of being somebody who who is like in the mix with them?

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it seems that the the biggest difference, the the raw numbers, yeah, they're pretty phenomenal, like the the actual power they can do, but the the way they can deliver it so much more often than in the past, the way they can stay at that super high level for a long, you know, every day is hard. Back in the old days, the races used to be, you know, couple of days hard, then maybe an easier day and everyone was pretty happy to do that. Whereas now, these guys are happy to race hard every single day, you know, and and honestly, the overall power numbers are not crazily different on the big days, but it's just you might have seven straight instead of two or three straight. So their fatigue resistance,

• 30:39Speaker 01

  for example, is quite phenomenal. And I think that just comes from, you know, a very young age of just right, you know, growing up in an era where that started to come into the sport and they're just conditioned for that. And you've got the older guard that were used to the old way and have to try to adapt. So they're kind of struggling a bit to bridge the gap.

• 31:01Rich Roll?

  We saw that with Tade, because he would make these aggressive moves like unnecessarily, like early in the race, like, why are you, why are you throwing down here? Like, you have to think about what, how you're going to feel in two weeks or whatever. And that was confusing for a lot of people and and considered like brash or irresponsible. But he would consistently back it up, right? And so it's like, all right, well, this is a new thing. Like, we're not used to seeing people being unnecessarily aggressive. We're used to seeing people really, you know, conserve their energy and kind of cautiously approach the race if if like the yellow jersey is the goal.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I mean, knowledge of training and performance and how fast people can go, I mean, These guys have all again, grown up in that era where they, they know that they know what Chris Froome was doing. They know what these guys were doing. They could go out and practice it and practice it and practice it. You know, and, and then figure out how to be better and better and, and sort of really raise the level of, of the sport. Um, one just thing about them all is they're all incredibly polite and lovely guys to speak to in the bunch as well. They're very likeable. You know, it's, it's.

• 32:08Rich Roll?

  That's different too. Like Lance has talked about how confusing that is for him. Like these guys are hugging each other and they're buddies and he's like, what is happening?

• 32:16Speaker 01

  There is a lot of that. And, and the fact is though, that helps you in the peloton because people are kind of give you some space. They kind of wait to see what you're going to do. They, you know, they have respect for these guys and kind of almost allow them to race the way they want to race. Which is a smart tactic on their behalf.

• 32:36Rich Roll?

  Political advantage.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Exactly. As opposed to being a bit of a, you know, boss and an a-hole and whatever else. And sort of, and then you've got the whole group racing against you. You know, these guys, yeah, they just, it's the same with Van der Poel, Wout van Aert, you know, they're just, they're just really gentlemanly racers that are very, very good. And, um, and I guess the sport to a large extent allows them to put on their show. But yeah, I think to your, to your point, a big thing's been they've had the knowledge of like more so than in the past, say in the Lance era where you could read about

• 33:14Speaker 01

  what he did, you know, a time up a certain climb or something. But really you didn't, you couldn't quantify it. Power meters were rare. Heart rate monitors were something, I guess. But, you know, we didn't really have a lot of information. Whereas now these guys just have so much data. They can reverse engineer anything on Strava. They can do all this stuff and, and they've just had, and then COVID, I guess, helped because they had that time to really just train. And, and we've obviously had a period before Kona of endurance sport, I think in general, and a post Kona period where the whole endurance world has just gone to another level.

• 33:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Um, where people just had time to put that work in and, uh, try to match what the best people can do. But as I said, there's a limit to the physical ability of any human, but the ability to do it more often seems to be what is being exploited now.

• 34:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tough year for Ineos.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:11Rich Roll?

  Rebuilding year, like what's, what's it like on the team bus? Like what's happening? What is the vision for the year to come?

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a tough one and same last couple of years. It hasn't gone great. It hasn't been as many wins and yet still, if you look at some of the success the teams had, I mean, there's some great successes there, but when you're not winning the Tour de France.

• 34:32Rich Roll?

  And you have this, this legacy of dominance also like looming over you.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  It's seen as a big giant failure, you know? So it's tough. I mean, the guys are getting bashed around. I think, I think what I feel sorry for a lot of our guys is that, you know, we had some young guys that were very, very good a couple of years ago and doing, you know, exceptionally well, winning races, you know, out of the blocks. And now a lot of guys that are older than them, you know, have sort of gone past them. And I think that's quite tough for them because normally, you know, if you're young and you're great, you just expect to continue on this curve. So I think as a, as a team, we need to really look at what we're doing from a performance

• 35:19Speaker 01

  side to support the athletes, to, to get, you know, the most out of them because, you know.

• 35:24Rich Roll?

  What does that look like specifically?

• 35:26Speaker 01

  I think it's a problem because you've had so much success. You just sort of figure you just keep doing it and it'll work. And there's been a shift, I think, in a lot of other teams around, I guess, must be preparation because once you get to the race, it's too late. You know, it's, it's how you turn up to the race, how well you prepared, how well prepared you are. Also a bit more of a blank canvas. You know, a lot of teams have had a lot more investment put in. It's like, okay, we, we weren't competitive with our team, you know? How do we change everything and, and sort of modernize? And, um, and I guess they've been able to evolve with the current format of the sport quicker than we've been able to because obviously we still have a bit of a lag potentially

• 36:11Speaker 01

  with some of the things we were doing in the past. So yeah, I think we need to. Yeah, go out there and sort of not even try to copy everyone because then you're still going to be behind, but.

• 36:24Rich Roll?

  Where can you innovate?

• 36:25Speaker 01

  We have to innovate.

• 36:26Rich Roll?

  Ineos and previously Sky, like that, the advantage was A, you had a bigger bank account to play with, but also there was the Brailsford, you know, kind of sensibility and philosophy of approaching this, this like 1% better and like finding all of these edges.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:42Rich Roll?

  And that became, you know, a distinguishing factor that allowed the teams to, you know, succeed beyond expectations.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:50Rich Roll?

  But these other teams have caught up.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:52Rich Roll?

  They have bigger budgets.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:53Rich Roll?

  So, so you can't just rest on those laurels, like where you have to continue that, that innovation process and try to find out where the next advantage is hiding.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I mean, you can say, it's, I mean, it is rotten luck. I mean, Egan Burnell crashing, Chris Froome, you know, sort of at the peak of their powers, you know, things unforeseen are also having a lingering effect because, you know, Egan, for example, was signed long-term as, you know, the go-to guy. So all of a sudden you got to find, you know, we had Carlos Rodriguez last year, he was fifth in the tour last year, he had a difficult tour this year, he was sick a bit, but he was still competitive. I mean, he was still seventh in a very high level. But again, he's another one, there was guys that sort of snuck in between he and those top three that, you know, potentially are older and he was above not long ago. So that, that's sort of my thing. I believe we've got the personnel.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  I believe, like you say, we just need to take a bit more of a, a look. And I mean, I'm not a scientist, I'm the sort of athlete that just loves to get told what to do, get given what they need to get given, you know, as far as nutrition and plans and, and whatever we, hydration, the equipment, however we do it and trust that we have the best people in those roles and just go out and execute, you know? Others are very, you know, they love to research stuff themselves, you know, like the only American kid, Magnus Sheffield, you know, he's just always reading, he's always trying to learn, he's always trying to figure out what's going on and better himself and do all this stuff, you know? Personally, I've never been that, I've always just tried to surround myself with the best

• 38:30Speaker 01

  people and trust what they're doing. So I guess as a team, they need to figure out how to support each athlete individually and how they like to do it and, and try to find a way to. Get ahead, you know, it's not even about catching up. You want to get ahead and but I but I definitely believe the team has the personnel. So, you know, they keep chipping away at it. They'll they'll find a way and they'll they'll fight back. I mean, it's it's a great organisation with a huge amount of success. And there's a bunch of those people still there, even if you have lost Dave Brailsford at the helm.

• 39:03Rich Roll?

  There's been some chatter about Tom Pittcock's future, some articles being written about this other team, Q36.5. Never heard of this team.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:13Rich Roll?

  And and and some idea that he might, I mean, his contract goes through 2027, I think, right? But there's some sense that he might switch teams. Like, is there any insight that you have on that?

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, obviously, I've got a lot of insight on it. I mean.

• 39:30Rich Roll?

  Insight that you're willing to share. I'm sure you know a lot that maybe you're not allowed to say, but.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  The, I mean, that idea makes sense. I mean, Tom has, I guess, the team really want to focus on winning the Grand Tours. And to this point, Tom has obviously focused on other things. You know, he's wanted to, well, he's wanted to learn about the tour and learn about the Grand Tours. But obviously, as a champion that he is, he's just won his second Olympic gold medal. I mean, that is pretty incredible, especially when you think about the fine margin he won it by. You know, athletes that can do that, like, one day every four years, and he's done it twice. It's, you know, they're obviously that next level. Now, where it's up, I guess it's him and the timing. I mean, if he feels there's pressure from the team to do something he doesn't,

• 40:19Speaker 01

  he'd feel he's ready to do at the moment, then, yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense that if they don't want to support the way he wants to try to win races, then he's going to look for a team that does want to support that. Now, he's got a contract, so he has to negotiate that. The Q36.5 is a very logical choice, because he potentially would have an opportunity to build a team around himself there, which is what, if you remember, Matthew Van der Poel did, you know, and that team has now grown into quite a successful, incredibly successful. They've won obviously everything with him, but also Phillipson and a bunch of other guys. They win a truckload of bike races and at the highest level.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  And also on top of that, Tom, you know, Pinarello with them not winning the tour and things the last, Tom's become quite a shining light for that brand.

• 41:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  With his success. So the owner of that team or Q36.5, which is actually a clothing company, also owns Pinarello. So, you know, there's a natural desire for that owner, for example, to have Tom as his guy. And if he feels that Tom being in a team on his own where he can showcase that more, I mean, it makes sense to me on a bunch of levels, whether the team let him go, you know, let the guy, one of the few guys that's actually capable of winning races at the moment, walk out the door. I mean, that, yeah, that's for management. That's a tricky decision.

• 41:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  For them to make.

• 41:46Rich Roll?

  It's interesting though, because they have such a unique and flexible relationship with you and what you do and seem to really respect that you have this whole other career outside of pro cycling.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:56Rich Roll?

  And, and they accommodate that, right? And bring you in when needed, but seem to respect that, you know, you have this other, other world that you're, you know, trying to excel in.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  I guess it's a bit different because they see Tom as a guy that could win the tour.

• 42:10Rich Roll?

  Right. So all that pressure, it's different. Yeah.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  They don't rely on me winning the tour.

• 42:13Rich Roll?

  We're paying him a lot more.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 42:15Rich Roll?

  We need him in yellow. Yeah. All that other stuff.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:18Rich Roll?

  You know, that, that's gotta go.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:20Rich Roll?

  It's different. I understand.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  Basically, I mean, that, that sort of is the, the line there. I mean, I'm sure if I was one of the few on the team that could perform and they're in the situation they're in where not a lot of guys, you know, they're not having a lot of success or the level of success they would like to have, you know, there'd probably be more pressure. And there has been this year, to be honest. I haven't raced as many Ironmans this year, people would have noticed, more because they've called me in at different times and, and I've sort of, at times it was, you know, there was a time recently I wanted to do the Ironman in Frankfurt. I really wanted to race Christian. I'd had a great summer of prep and I was about to enjoy my last week of recovery, ready for that. And the team rang and said, oh, we need you to go to, to a Poland next week. And I was like, well, we've got quite a big Ironman.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Next week and it's part of the pro series, which I want to be a part of and blah, blah. Yeah, well, we need you in Poland. I said, well, fair enough. I don't want to be another one of the riders. It doesn't want to go to a race because I don't feel like it. I've got something else on. I'm on the roster. So, you know, I ended up missing that Ironman. Um, I ended up doing that race and ended up racing again the following week. A tour of Germany. So I basically did four weeks of like the hardest training of my life and it was actually fantastic. Fitness wise, it just gave me a nice big bump. And then obviously then I was released, if you like, from school. To come here to the U S and, and sort of hone in on, on Kona. So as far as Kona went, it was actually probably a godsend.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  But um, there's certainly been times this year, I mean, even the Ironman South Africa early in the year when I qualified for Kona that week.

• 43:53Rich Roll?

  You did, you did Amstel Gold and then you did LaFleche Walonne and then, and then Ironman South Africa, all in eight days.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. All in eight days. Then I flew that night.

• 44:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just to disabuse anybody who might be thinking you're, you're taking your foot off the gas.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So, but I mean, I had to do that race because I needed to qualify for Kona. I wanted to do it early.

• 44:14Rich Roll?

  You podium, you were third at South Africa.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Leading until seven K to go. I just ran out of gas, which is probably understandable, you know? Considering the week that I'd had, I was just a bit tired.

• 44:27Rich Roll?

  Exactly a taper.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  No, it was amazing because I, I love that race. I love that race in South Africa because we stay in a hotel. Right. Basically on the finish line. So, you know, I finished the race. I was third, sat the podium, did all that, did doping control. You know, walked across the road. Obviously a lot of people want to stop you and have a photo, did all that, got to the hotel. My wife was already back there waiting for me with our, with our boy. And um, I walked in, you know, said, thank, gave my wife the flowers. She loves to get those and, you know, I said, I'm going to have a shower. I had a shower, jumped into bed and I remember Liege Baston, Liege was on and the Formula One. So I, you know, had that on the TV and the iPad. And fell asleep. Now, uh, within probably 30 minutes, like so within an hour of finishing the race, hour and a half, I was sound asleep. Now.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  During that run alone, I think I had around 600 milligrams of caffeine because I was tired. And so I was just pumping every gel I could into me and coke and whatever else. And plus I'd had some on the bike and so I'd probably had a thousand milligrams that day. Yet, as soon as I finished, I just fell asleep. Normally I don't sleep until two or three AM the next day, you're so lit after the race. But um, but yeah, so I've, I've, this year I've definitely been more accommodating. Well, not more accommodating, I've, I've fulfilled my role with the team a lot more. And, and I've also realised when people say, oh, you know, you should be able to focus. I said, no, I'm part of the cycling team and for that I'm a cyclist, you know, I'm not, I'm not a, I'm not a sideshow triathlete, I, I do my job um, properly.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  And you set an example for the other guys as well. If I start not wanting to do this, not wanting to do that. I mean, it just sort of sets a bad example for the rest of the team. So um, but yeah, I think at the end, it's left me a bit fresher for this preparation for Kona.

• 46:12Rich Roll?

  Are you the oldest guy in the peloton? Are there guys that are older than you?

• 46:15Speaker 01

  I think there is a couple of guys that might be a little bit older, but certainly in the world tour, yes, I'm the oldest. Yeah.

• 46:21Rich Roll?

  And is there anything, I mean, I'm, I'm certain like, not just on Ineos, but like all the guys come to you for wisdom. You've been around so long, like you've seen it all, all that kind of stuff. But then on top of that, like, is there anything at 41 that you have to pay attention to more than you had to when you were 35 or 31? Like, are you noticing, like, as you're aging up, that um, you can't do certain things you used to be able to do? Or is it still, you're just like, all gas all the time?

• 46:51Speaker 01

  I have a really low tolerance for crashing now. I do not want to crash. And if I come close to a crash.

• 46:56Rich Roll?

  That's less about age and more about like parenthood.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably is. But if I see a crash or I see someone do something stupid that nearly, I really, I mean, I don't lash out at it, but I just like to myself, I'm like, what are you? You know, whereas in the bars, it's sort of just part of the racing.

• 47:12Rich Roll?

  And by extension, does that impact your aggressiveness on the descents?

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm very good at doing my job and being at the front, on the front, out of trouble, keeping my guys out of trouble. And when I'm done, like when I don't have any legs left, I'm at the back and out of trouble. I'm not, I'm not sitting in the death zone, you know, and if I can come back, if I can recover back there and come back and help again, absolutely. But yeah, it is definitely, I have a bit of a different approach, but as, as far as that goes, but also I'm no good to anyone if I'm on the ground, you know, so, um, and also, yeah, I definitely have less tolerance to that just aggressiveness that goes on unnecessarily. I mean, I'll fight all day for a crosswind

• 47:58Speaker 01

  section or the first section of the cobbles in Roubaix or whatever, you know, when it's a part of the event, but just, I mean, nowadays it's just can be nervous all day, you know, I mean, the road can just be blocked all day. So, you know, you've got two choices. You're either at the front and out of trouble, or you're at the back and out of trouble and you let the middle of the peloton sort itself out.

• 48:19Rich Roll?

  How did you feel about the introduction of gravel to the Tour de France? Is that controversial in the, in the peloton? It made for good viewing, but I don't know if that's sticking around.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Guys don't like, but I mean, you know, you can slip out, slide out and it can ruin months, years. I mean, I'm a big proponent of there's a lot of investment in these guys and for something unnecessarily taking them out, you know, it's sad, you know, especially, I mean, even rain or whatever, you know, like a guy crashes your leader and he's out of the tour. I mean, a guy who paid millions of dollars and invested even more in and the whole preparation and all of a sudden the team feels like it's good. I mean, that's, but I guess that's also part of the sport. Um, but to add, to add anything else in that potentially you don't need to, does it add to the spectacle? You know, I don't really, I mean, it's exciting.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  I remember wanting to watch the stage, knowing that it was going to be, something was going to happen. It's the same with the cobbles and, but we're also seeing that those stages are being more neutralized because all the guys are more prepared for it. So I think if you want to see more explosive, exciting racing, you're probably better off doing that on a traditional course, you know, you just throw in some more climbs or more technical aspect on a normal road course. And then that at least.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  There's more chance of the legs deciding than maybe luck. Yeah.

• 49:45Rich Roll?

  Well, they did a little bit of that this year. I mean, the tour just kicked off like and just went right into the mountain straight away where usually there's several days of sprint, sprint stages before you get to that.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. See, I think that's wonderful, but I think if you were, if you were going to lose a favorite or lose people because of gravel, I think that's, I don't, I don't, I mean, yeah, I don't think that people don't tune in to watch clouds of dust. I don't think, you know, I mean, it doesn't appeal to as many people.

• 50:11Rich Roll?

  It was kind of exciting though, but maybe part of that excitement was just novelty.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. I don't, I don't doubt that part, but yeah, from a, I guess from a rider's perspective. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely an added element of, and especially with how nervous, as I said, the peloton and everything is nowadays. It's, uh, yeah, it just makes for a really, really tough day. And then in the end, nothing really changed.

• 50:35Rich Roll?

  Why did we do that?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So that would be more my point, you know?

• 50:39Rich Roll?

  I get it.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Maybe if you're going to do it, how about we do like a 20% gravel climb, you know, like what that is just going to decimate the field. And then it kind of makes sense.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  So let's talk about Kona coming up in two weeks. We were talking earlier about, uh, the former era. You could win the race or really distinguish yourself by being really strong in one discipline. Norman Stadler on the bike, those, those, those types of athletes, that's no longer the case. You really have to be great at all three. That's just the progress that this sport has made. Um, we've got the Norwegians, uh, Christian and Gustav. We've got of course, Sam Ledlow, who broke the bike course record, um, the other year. We got Patrick Longa. Like, how, how is this shaping up in your mind? Like, how are you thinking about the competition and your specific approach to the race?

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like you say, you've got to be good at everything now and that's a great thing. I mean, that's how it should be. It's a professional sport and, uh, you should have to be very good at, at the craft. And I think it's just going to be a natural sort of demolition of, of the field because it's going to be on from the start. So you know, you're going to have guys eliminated. Very early, as early as the swim.

• 51:53Rich Roll?

  Well, the the trope has always been like, you can't win the race in the swim, but you can lose it.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 51:57Rich Roll?

  But do you think we're now in a in an era in which perhaps the swim is much more important than it ever has been?

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And the momentum at the front of the race, you know, the dynamic of what ends up at the front after the swim will have a big impact on how the race plays out. So, you know.

• 52:14Rich Roll?

  Which is why you on Instagram yesterday, uh, shared some clips of you swimming and asked and asked.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:22Rich Roll?

  You know, some cheeky feedback.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  It's funny because one of the most common comments was you got to finish off a bit more. So this morning I actually had open water practice with um, tower 26. And the wonderful thing about swimming with tower 26 and those beach swims is the same people show up every week. And there's some very strong open water swimmers there. And when I rocked up six weeks ago, I got dropped straight away. I mean, I'd been racing on the bike. I'd been sort of training on my own for a few weeks, like Hayden Wild had been to the Olympics. And when he went off and did that, then he had a break. So we hadn't really trained together for really a couple of months. So I'd lost that competitiveness in the swim that I'm exposed to. Anyway, so all of a sudden, the second week, right, okay, get up earlier, have your coffee, have you have some gels, like make sure you got fuel on board.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  And I was then able to stay in the group. Then the next week you start drawing alongside. Then the next week you're like eyeballing the top guys. Then you're like, you're actually starting to race them. I mean, it's been great for me to have a benchmark to like, see my improvement. But the feedback about finishing off the stroke was great because this morning I was actually able to sort of, okay, I'm just going to work on that one thing. And I gotta say, I really appreciate the people that gave me that feedback.

• 53:35Rich Roll?

  Part of it, part of it was tongue in cheek though, because obviously you're not going to like overhaul your, your, your stroke, you know, mechanics two weeks out.

• 53:42Speaker 01

  And I know I'm swimming well.

• 53:43Rich Roll?

  It was sort of a joke, but then you like, I had, I had some thoughts, you know, but then I was like. Eh, like, he's fine.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  What if he reads it?

• 53:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. But the best were like, here's my feedback. Like, you should quit swimming or like, you know, just like, you know, very kind of like Aussie sort of comments.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  I always, when I put swimming up, I always get some great stuff. But I also know that it's the one thing that people can really have a dig at at me. And I give people such a hard time, you know, often.

• 54:11Rich Roll?

  On their running form or?

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, anything, not wearing T-shirts, you know, whatever it is. Lionel and he's, I mean, it was best yesterday. He's double threshold day. I was like, Lionel, that's so 2022. I mean, we haven't spoken about double threshold since 2022. And people are always into me about it being nasty or whatever. So, you know, I make a bit of fun of myself. And but I think it's.

• 54:33Rich Roll?

  Falling through on your stroke. That's, that's some solid one-on-one, swimming one-on-one feedback.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I, I mean, I've still got two and a half weeks, so I can make improvement. So people, please, you know, feedback.

• 54:44Rich Roll?

  A little more shoulder roll. You're a little flat on the surface there. And your right arm comes, comes across like very, very kind of horizontally, right? So flat like that.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:55Rich Roll?

  Whereas if you can just get that higher elbow, you can get more of a shoulder roll and a deeper, a deeper pull. And also you're using your legs too much. A lot of people said that, like, no reason. And in a wetsuit, just drag your legs, man.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:08Rich Roll?

  There's no reason for you to be kicking like that.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  I was.

• 55:10Rich Roll?

  You just, the, the only purpose of kicking isn't, it's not propulsion, it's body position, right? To keep your body high.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I normally don't. I was actually doing a bit of faster stuff. I didn't want to put my slow, slow swimming up there. I wanted to try. So that was.

• 55:24Rich Roll?

  You don't want to be that vulnerable.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. But, but yeah, I like that shoulder. That's a, that's a great one, too. These are little things I've still got time to work on.

• 55:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  And.

• 55:34Rich Roll?

  One of the things that Lionel has been doing, I, I wanted to get your feedback in on that. I thought was interesting. You know, we talk about zone training, zone two, you know, like threshold, all that sort of stuff. But he doesn't really talk about zones at all. He's always talking about LT1 and LT2. So LT1 being when your body first begins to accumulate lactate, but not to the degree that you can't be always like purging it. So it's sort of maybe you're, you're into the higher zone two kind of range. And then LT2, which is when you lose your ability to clear that lactate and you're more in that kind of like threshold pace. Do you, do you think in those terms or how? And he's always pricking his ear and taking lactate and all of that. Like, how, what's your?

• 56:16Speaker 01

  So there's two things with the science. I mean, if you know what you're doing, like the Norwegians, you do it. I mean, if you don't know what you're

• 56:23Rich Roll?

  They're all in fully.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. I think we spoke about it last time. Like I spoke to Alexander about that and it's like, if you don't know what, you're better off doing nothing. So I hope in Lionel's case, he knows what he's doing. But the funny thing about LT1 and LT2, I did laugh when I started to hear that term reemerge. That was exactly

• 56:39Rich Roll?

  That's old school. That like

• 56:40Speaker 01

  That was our rowing. That was our rowing efforts. Like I've been doing that since I was 15. It was LT1 effort, LT2, you know, and, and so I know exactly what that, that zone. But I mean, I guess in today's terms, it's simply, as you say, zone three, you know, the threshold, which is that just after zone two phase, but still comfortable. And then, or you go VO2, you know, which is past threshold, where as you say, it's like a minute or couple of minutes sort of max. And then you're, you've got to really figure out how to clear that because you're just getting more and more into the hole. So, um, yeah, I've, it's funny. I haven't heard, I hadn't heard those terms for 20 years.

• 57:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It was interesting. When I started hearing that, I was like, yeah, that come, that, that, that is way back, right? But now it's, I guess if you, but if you, the difference being like, he's, he's pricking his ear and he's getting blood and so he's, he's testing his lactate all the time, which is, uh, that's the, that's the kind of improvement on what used to be just something you would go on feel for.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, to put, like you said, in Italian, I had an Italian coach, Otto Sassi, you know, quite a legend. He's, he's now since passed, but he had the MAPA team. He was the one that just drove, was, started that and, and managed that. But he used to call it, uh, lungo, which was zone two, medio, which is medium, uh, solia, which is threshold and sopra solia, which was, you know,

• 58:03Rich Roll?

  I kind of like that. I think you should just, you only use those terms going forward.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Those ones from now on, just to confuse everyone.

• 58:09Rich Roll?

  And everyone will think you've invented some like new training.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's basically, I don't think you change those.

• 58:15Rich Roll?

  But you strike me as you're kind of, you've been doing this so long, you don't like, yes, I'm sure you have a power meter and all that kind of stuff, but like you know where you're at, right? Like, and you know what you need. And so you don't strike me as somebody who's like digging into the weeds of, you know, all the data points.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  No, not at all. I mean, I, I just sort of know how fast I need. I mean, Dave Zborski gave me some of the greatest advice, which was forget about what the power meter says and, you know, make sure, just figure out how to go fast, you know? And Bradley McGee was another one that gave me the same advice. Um, two of the greatest sort of prologue time trialists of.

• 58:49Rich Roll?

  I think Dave, does Dave still have the time trial record fastest time trial?

• 58:53Speaker 01

  He does. Yeah, yeah, no, he does. So, and he's out here, you know, he's got his boys now. Yeah.

• 58:58Rich Roll?

  They're all like, now they're gung ho cyclists.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  They're, I mean, they're homeschooled and they're cycling flat out. And I mean, the team even asked me to make sure I spoke to Dave while I was out, find out if any other teams have been speaking to them. I mean, okay, one of his boys is actually.

• 59:12Rich Roll?

  Dave is sort of like, what have I reaped? You know, like, I think he got his kids into cycling for fun. And now like, they're sort of, you know, in his, in, you know, taking his path. And he's like, uh oh.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, as you said, I can't wait for them to go to a team because I've had to build a team. I did not want to build a team. I mean, I've got bikes and wheels and driving them here and there and traveling everywhere with them. You know, you can't wait for them to go to the next level.

• 59:38Rich Roll?

  Get it out of my hands.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, uh, so, you know, and he even shared yesterday, as I said to you before, just like getting a bit of heat exposure now going into Kona. I mean, over in Santa Monica where we are, it's, you know, it's a lot cooler than out here. So yesterday, instead of doing my TT efforts, I've been doing up around the strawberry fields and been quite pleasant. But, um, Dave used to use from, um, yeah, from Malibu Canyon, um, on Mulholland, past your place, up seven minute hill. And then you just, you know, get to the top of seven minutes and then roll back down.

• 1:00:09Rich Roll?

  Loop it around.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, loop it around. Just do that. So I did that a few times yesterday and I know, you know, how quick I need to be going at the perceived effort and, uh, and it was hot as hell, you know? Um, so. Yeah, I mean, I more look at, I'll sort of pick a point to point, you know, I know that, you know, for 90 minutes, I can go from Zoomer back to the top of the hill with the, the gas station after Zoomer, I know I'm going pretty well, you know, so what the power meter says or the heart rate monitor or whatever is kind of irrelevant.

• 1:00:40Rich Roll?

  And then during the race, trying to tune that out completely and just race.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  And now we're racing, you know, I mean, that's the thing, you know, when we're in the race, it's like, you got to do what you got to do to get to where you need to be to give yourself a chance to try and win this thing. And especially when it comes to Kona, especially the, you know, as disappointed as I was to have a disappointing Kona, I was still 11th, you know, last time around, but it was a backwards step from fifth.

• 1:01:08Rich Roll?

  And how many guys like broke the bike course record that?

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Oh, just one.

• 1:01:11Rich Roll?

  And you were, it was your record, right?

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  I think I was, Sam obviously broke it. I was also under it, I think.

• 1:01:16Rich Roll?

  You were under it, yeah.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there was maybe one other.

• 1:01:19Rich Roll?

  Were you second off the bike?

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  I wasn't second off the bike, but I was second quickest. I think I was fourth.

• 1:01:23Rich Roll?

  Bike split.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was just behind the Norwegians. So they had that group of three. So I was fifth off the bike. I just, I just about caught them. But yeah, basically, Kona's that race. And it also makes you realize that, you know, I've been fifth, I've been ninth, I've been 11th, I've been 17th. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter now what I, you know, like, I've got to just try and finish as high as I possibly can, you know, it's not about having a good performance there, it's about trying to win the thing, you know, it's all or nothing.

• 1:01:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, you're still, you've still got your eyes on the prize, right? Still possible. So, so predictions for the race, like, where do you see yourself? How are you going to execute on this? Who are the other people that you're thinking about? And where they're going to kind of fall in that pecking order?

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, obviously, at my age, everyone kind of assumes, you know, you probably won't be a factor.

• 1:02:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like you can kind of sneak up on.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  But, but I think back to when I first went to the Olympics and someone said, so I'll explain, but if you reach the top of any elite sport. And you make it to that and you're a chance of competing, you know, you're doing the biggest event in that sport. In our case, that's Kona as a professional. I've never been on that start line and someone's gone out on those, on those, on those surfboards and asked for our birth certificate. No one cares how old you are. If you've earned the right to be there and you are there, you've got a chance of, you know, trying to win that thing. It's, it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter if you're young or old. Yeah. I don't, I don't even think about that part. I'm only thinking about figuring out how to beat these guys and, and to do

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  that, I know I have to swim very well. I need to be close to the front of the race if I'm not at the front of the race. I need to get to the front of the race and I need to ensure that the race is very hard so that if anyone else is there, the run is.

• 1:03:17Rich Roll?

  You're forcing a bike pace that is getting your competitors out of their comfort zone more than you.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Precisely. And it was actually really good because I raced, I did a last minute Ironman in the summer in Victoria Gasts eyes, which was, I was meant to be actually racing the bike that week. And then they said, oh no, you don't have to come. I was like, oh great. I'll go and do the Ironman then. This is like the Thursday and the race is on the Sunday. And Sam was there, Laidlow. And they actually, you know, I actually didn't swim very well. I had a terror, like I just sort of got through the bike and thought I'll just do a good run. I was actually planning to go to Lake Placid the weekend after. I was sort of doing it more as a training session and figured I was out of the race. But I almost, I ended up third and the group that I came off the bike, we'd ended up first and second. So we were, we were

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  the podium and we ran all of the front. There was a front group of about four or five up the road that had ridden very, very hard. And Sam was the only one that stayed just in front of me, but he'd been disqualified because he didn't take a drafting penalty. So I was fourth over the line, but ended up third. But it reminded me that, wait a minute, like if this bike, if these guys try to ride that hard, you know, they actually really damage their run. So as a, as a hard bike into a run goes, I really believe that I can be.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  There. And so obviously that's my strategy to somehow make the bike hard. So if people are there, they've got a bit of the edge off them, you know? And, and that makes it a bit more of a scrappier grind out run. Or they're going to have to sit up and burn a lot of time and bank on guys blowing up. Yeah.

• 1:05:08Rich Roll?

  You have with age also more experience at this race than anyone else. But also you have done more work over the years than anybody else. Like you have this insane work capacity in a sport that is about work capacity. And you just love it. If it was up to you, I'm sure you would train all day, every single day of your life.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:05:29Rich Roll?

  And you have this thing, uh, which is you, you, you basically never get tired, right? And, and I heard, um, I had like Ken ride out on here and Jesse Isler and they, I don't know who invented it, but one of them like deploy this tactic when they're in a race and they just look at the guy that, who's their neck and neck with, and they're like, you know what? You know the thing about me?

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Rich Roll?

  What? I just never get tired. It's, it's crazy. But you could actually say that and, and you are that guy. Like you don't get tired.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't. I also, I mean, I love, like I said to you the other day, I had a graded sort of adventure day, you know? But it ends up being a pretty crazy day of training.

• 1:06:06Rich Roll?

  So just to explain to people what you did.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I had the morning, the squad swim, which was an hour. And that's like the hardest squad swim of the week.

• 1:06:13Rich Roll?

  Tower 26 at the Palisades.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Tower 26 at Palisades. Yeah. They go flat out on Saturdays because everyone's off work. And, you know, they've had a bit more of a sleepy and we don't swim till 7:30. So everyone's a bit more jazzed up. So, and everyone wants to, you know, is there to smash me basically. I mean, Jerry and his guys are amazing. They just really commit to like helping me prepare the best that they possibly can. I really appreciate that. Um, and then, yeah, I did my bike ride up to the strawberry fields. But, you know, instead of going back to Santa Monica and doing a, a run, I said to my wife, you know, could you meet me out here in Calabasas and, um, I'll give you my bike and then I'm going to run up Dirtmo Holland. Cause it was so hot out here. I wanted to get some heat.

• 1:06:52Rich Roll?

  Did you start at Peddler's Fork or did you?

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  No, no, I started in Santa Monica.

• 1:06:56Rich Roll?

  But no, for the run part though.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  Oh, for the run. Yeah, I started at, um, yeah, Peddler's Fork.

• 1:07:00Rich Roll?

  Right. And so you just took, you took, uh, Valley Circle to the beginning of Dirt Mulholland?

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  I actually added a bit. I ran around past the Commons and then, and then up that way and then along Mulholland. And I actually grabbed a last minute Coke at the gas station there on Mulholland. Just to, just to really, just to really load up because I felt how hot it was when I started running.

• 1:07:19Rich Roll?

  And it's about, I think it's from the beginning of the dirt on Dirt Mulholland to the Nike missile tower is like six and a half or something like that.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it ended up being 19 kilometers. So nearly 12 miles to there.

• 1:07:31Rich Roll?

  From, yeah, from Peddlers.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  From Peddlers. Yeah. By the time I'd done the extra bit and then.

• 1:07:35Rich Roll?

  And there's that one water fountain.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  And then there's the one water fountain at the top.

• 1:07:38Rich Roll?

  You took a photo of that and took it to me. I know exactly what that water fountain is.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  And I was listening to your podcast. You were talking about LMNT and I'd taken an LMNT with me. Cause I don't know why I did, but as you saw, I had a gel, I had a Morton gel, an LMNT. I didn't even have a bottle, but I ended up having a bit of the gel, pouring the LMNT into the gel packet. And then putting a bit of water out of the fountain, mixing it all around, scoffing it down. So I got some sodium in, got some sugar in, had a good drink.

• 1:08:07Rich Roll?

  It was like a hundred degrees out that day.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  It was a hundred.

• 1:08:09Rich Roll?

  And Dirt Mulholland is like hotter than, it is, it's super hot up there.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  It was a light tail breeze as well. So it just couldn't, yeah. And then obviously I ran down in, down Westridge into, into Santa Monica. It was like 34, so it was, you know, 21, 22 miles in the end. But it dropped about 40 degrees. I mean, I always got hypothermia when I got to the bottom. But, you know, and it's like, at the end of the day, you've done, you know, seven, that was a two hour, 20 run, four hours on the bike. You know, seven and a half hour day, more or less. And I just love it. I mean, it was just so, such an interesting day for me. Yet as far as an athletic side, it was like a really high level. You know, the, the bike was a really hard bike, you know, a really Ironman specific type session.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  With some good, consistent hard power and, and the run, you know, I pushed the pace all the way up to Nike, knowing that it's all downhill from there. Isn't that the worst? You think, oh, it's all downhill, but you realize you're actually running. It's not like on a. Bike like you could kind of let your legs go, but it actually hurts even more when they're tired going downhill. Um, but that's also something that we've actually done a bit of this year, um, more of which is built designed to. And that was the other idea behind the run because a few weeks before I'd actually run from Santa Monica up to West Ridge and just back down. And I said to Brad at Nike, I said, look, I've, I've got an idea of a different route, you know, and, and it sort of puts the downhill at the same point. But a bit more of an interesting way to get up there. So that was the reason why.

• 1:09:37Rich Roll?

  And the downhill portion down West Ridge is much steeper than the ascent up to.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  Oh, it's half, it's almost half.

• 1:09:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, and then you've got the concrete part, the last part. So it was, uh, that was a great day.

• 1:09:50Rich Roll?

  Good one, man.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  But no, I love, I love it. I honestly love it.

• 1:09:53Rich Roll?

  What is your sense of, of what's happening with the Norwegians? So, so as we all know, there was this, uh, commitment after the, the prior Ironman season that they were going all in on the Olympics.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Rich Roll?

  They were going to step it down to, uh, shorter distances. Christian did not have, like Gustav had some other issues and, and did not compete and Gustav had a subpar performance in the Olympics. Now he's back to Kona. Difficult transition. Um, he had a, he had like a, a big win.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:26Rich Roll?

  At an Ironman in between, you know, where he showed like, hey, man, I'm, I'm just as good as I ever was.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:32Rich Roll?

  What, what do you think happened at the Olympics and where do you think like he's at right now in his Kona prep?

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I don't know. I mean, he hasn't really been at that level since Tokyo. You know, he hasn't dominated really anything since then, um, as far as an Olympic level, you know, and I trained with Hayden all the time in that period. I mean, he and Alex Sheehan have been a long way ahead of him, you know, that really that whole period. So it wasn't a surprise. I mean, that was about where everyone expected him to finish. So whether he's lost some speed. Yeah, well, I guess that's it. I mean, he was with them off the bike. He was in, he was in a position to win off the bike. He just didn't have the legs. So you can just assume that time has meant that he's lost speed. I mean, Alex and Hayden are younger and maybe that, and they're running quick, you know, like 29 minutes in that kind of heat. It's pretty remarkable. So

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  you'd think that also that with his age, the Ironman would actually suit him better. So potentially, you know, from where he might be very disappointed of how that panned out, he could actually be primed for an even better performance in Ironman, which is quite scary.

• 1:11:38Rich Roll?

  And, and bringing that period of time in which he was so speed focused, maybe not fast enough to, you know, to distinguish himself in the Olympics, but bringing that back into the Kona context could be like a powerful weapon.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, certainly not something that I'm excited for him to have, you know, and that's why I guess the only vulnerability and, and you know, this is, is, is the bike, you know, if we can somehow make him work harder than he wants to work. I mean, they're very calculated with how they do things. Um, can we deaden his run? I mean, and that's the only option. Or is he going to be, do his own thing and bank on running everyone down and, and Gustaf?

• 1:12:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you just don't know.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  You just, yeah, we, we, we don't really know, but there, there's again, a bit like we're talking about Kipchoge, guys that are that good, same with Gustaf, you cannot rule them out. I mean, I think Sam Ledlow is a clear favorite. There's Magnus Ditlev, the big Dane, Danish guy, Great Dane, we call him. I mean, he's had some phenomenal, consistent performance over the past few years. Um, and he'll be a factor. Um, but yeah, I mean, it's Kona. There's, there's just something about that race that, um, you never know who it's going to destroy and you never know who it's going to put up on the pedestal and, and turn, turn into a king. So, uh, that's what's exciting about it.

• 1:13:00Rich Roll?

  If Australian Energy has anything to do with your success, you're in good company because right now the Aussies are setting the pace in terms of what's happening at the outer edges of endurance.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:13Rich Roll?

  So I want to spend a few minutes talking about kind of what's happening right now.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:17Rich Roll?

  We have Lachlan Morton, who just broke by like seven days, I think.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a lot.

• 1:13:24Rich Roll?

  The record for cycling the perimeter of Australia. Insanity. He did it in 30 days, riding some insane number of kilometers every single day and getting like seven hours of sleep every night.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35Rich Roll?

  Rewriting that record, which is unbelievable. And right now we have Ned Brockman approximately like halfway through his attempt to break the 1,000 mile record on the track in Centennial Park.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:49Rich Roll?

  And the videos that are on Instagram right now, like showing the brutal reality of what he's decided to shoulder for himself are pretty insane.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I just should say, like, we've seen, we talked a bit briefly before about the endurance world and post-COVID era of hype, you know, the level, how it's gone. I mean, really, in that world as well, I mean, these guys are, it's mind boggling. I mean, they are world, world class. I mean, I guess in the past, sometimes it was like, you know, it might be like some 50, 60 year old guy that runs across America or something, you know, and it's like, wow, that's like incredible performance, achievement or whatever. But these guys are now like touching on like the high performance part of these extreme challenges, which I think blows my mind. I mean, yeah, we get to Lachlan, but Ned at the moment, I mean, you think about, you know, 1,000 miles, okay, wow, that's a lot.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  10 days, whoa, okay, yeah, that's a lot. Oh, wow, that's like four marathons in a day.

• 1:14:49Rich Roll?

  Right, 100 miles every day.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  Every single day, you know, and he's on track. I mean, he just passed halfway, he's on track for it. But, I mean, that is just, I mean, a marathon a day is enough to be very hard to, you know, people have done that in every state or whatever. But. Four of them. I mean, not just one day, four of them, like every, I mean, it, it literally just actually blows your mind. And I mean, obviously then the same with Lachlan, you know, I mean, it was almost what 300 miles a day, 250 miles a day. And I don't know, I mean, people have, people are used to riding around here, you know, and beautiful hot mix and super fast roads. Man, you go to Australia and those, those roads are like, you know,

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  I mean, they're dead as Elvis. They are like just slow grind, like just like chip seal, like it, it's hard to ride on them, you know? So they, I mean, we always say, you know, like the Aussies, when they go back to Europe at the start of the year, they're always flying because they've been at home training on these roads that are just dead and hard, you know, and their legs toughen up. And then as the year goes on, the Aussies performances tend to fall because the, you know, the legs soften up a little bit, um, racing around all the fast, fast, uh, fast roads of Europe. So, you know, what Lachlan did, I mean,

• 1:16:06Rich Roll?

  14,000, 14,200 kilometers, which is 8,823 miles in 30 days, 450 kilometers a day on average, getting seven hours of sleep at night.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  That's the thing, the sleep part. Like it was literally just like a training camp for him. I mean, I

• 1:16:24Rich Roll?

  What is it? You know this guy, right?

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I was in touch with him, jury. He sent me a wonderful selfie at one point. I mean, I was, it was actually a day, it was a Wednesday. I won't forget because I just finished swimming and I was about to do the run, similar run to what I'll do this afternoon. And I was like, yeah, but yeah, it's just a tough one to get up for, you know, it's a hard session, you're a bit tired from the swim. And I just messaged him to say, mate, listen, like, I just want you to know that when I'm trying to get out the door for the third session of the day or the fourth session or, you know, whatever, I often think of you and, and it's, it just sort of reminds me to just show up and go and do it. I mean, a bit Kenwright outside like that. And, um, and literally he, he must

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  have, uh, just stopped for the day or something because he like sent me a picture of himself, like a smile back later on. It's just, yeah, it's just like,

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  It is, it's very motivating, you know, it's people like him, people like Ned that, you know, remind you when you do need to do a session and you're not really keen to start it, you know, it's just like, just get rolling. I mean, and they're not trying to say they're doing the fastest, they are, they're setting world records, of course, but they're not trying to proclaim that they're faster than Pogacar, you know, or if they, if Lachlan, well, in Lachlan's case, he probably could have won the tour, you know, if he'd, if he'd gone down that, chosen that path. I mean, he was a phenomenal, still is, but a junior talent, that the sky was seeming to be the limit. And for whatever reason-

• 1:17:53Rich Roll?

  Shows a different path. I mean, for people that don't know, Lachlan Morton, you know, world team rider for EF, you know, was in the mix and in the peloton and had a certain career trajectory and kind of pulled a Laird Hamilton, you know, it's like, I, you know, I could do this, but like, actually, my passion in cycling is something else altogether that I want to kind of, I want to paint a different type of canvas and I want to do it my way. And stepped out, first distinguished himself by doing this thing called the Alt Tour, where he rode the whole Tour de France by himself, unassisted, like, you know, and, and his feet got all chewed up so much that he created this sort of like Birkenstock type shoe that he was riding with and sleeping on the side of the road. And he ended up getting like

• 1:18:35Rich Roll?

  more engagement for that than like the EF team did for their performance in the Tour de France, which kind of validated like this idea that, you know, you can carve your own path as an athlete, that began with guys like Laird, and now there's, there's more kind of like established roots to doing this and has just continued while also distinguishing himself in gravel, like he won Unbound right now, like he's just an absolute beast. And then he takes on these insane challenges and like, really like the whole world like rallies around him, like he's, he could be like one of the most popular cyclists in the world, like people love him.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  For sure, he's mainstream. I mean, he's one of the few cyclists that's written about in mainstream media or covered in mainstream media. I mean, it's, it's phenomenal. And like you said, there's been that evolution of him kind of discovering that world and doing these things to all of a sudden now we're seeing a real high performance level of doing- Doing these things. Like you said, he won Unbound. He tried to win Leadville. You know, he had some mechanical problems, but it was still right up there. I mean, he's got some, he's got some races coming up here at the end of the year. I mean, he basically, this was like a big training camp for him, you know, for, for doing those events. I mean, yeah, it's, um, he's a, he's a really class act. And, and like I say to people, you know, if you're ever struggling for motivation to do anything, uh, just have a read of what he's up to because he'll be doing something that'll

• 1:19:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  A bit like Ned, you know, I mean, let's see how he goes his next few days. He's on track now, but I mean, that, that, what he's trying to do, that really blows my mind.

• 1:20:01Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's, it's wild. It's wild.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:04Rich Roll?

  And it, it appears we're on like day five, I think, right now, when we're recording this. He's starting, you could see the cracks, he's struggling, but he, his mental game is so powerful. My only concern is because he's getting so little sleep, like, does he have somebody on his team to really keep him out of, of real mortal danger? Cause he's one of those guys who will just go until like,

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  He can't.

• 1:20:26Rich Roll?

  He drops and he's in an ambulance.

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:28Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's, yeah. I, I've got faith in him.

• 1:20:32Rich Roll?

  I do too.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  Smash some of his milk.

• 1:20:33Rich Roll?

  I'm not betting against that guy, you know, and I just love his enthusiasm and, uh, and, and just the way that he can like unite all of these people. And he gets all these people who don't necessarily have any connection to the endurance world, like excited about what he's doing. And he's raising all this money for homelessness.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:50Rich Roll?

  Just like Lachlan raised a ton of money for

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Literacy.

• 1:20:53Rich Roll?

  Indigenous literacy. Um, so I think these things are, are really cool. And so I have an idea for you, Cam.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:59Rich Roll?

  Speaking of bringing high performance to, you know, the sort of granola crunchy world of some of these ultra endurance races. I think we need to see you toe the line at Ultraman because you would just absolutely rewrite the record book on that race.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  Potentially. That's another one the guys are doing. The level's raised a lot.

• 1:21:16Rich Roll?

  It's starting to, but we still have yet to see, like on the women's side, there's been like some, you know, women pros who have gone in and like done incredibly well. And, and rewrote the record book there, but we, I don't think we've seen, um, a true star standout male.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I've definitely looked at it and obviously next year presents an opportunity because there is no Kona. I mean, that's I think with Kona now, that's why this year is so, there's so much more riding on it. We only get to do it once every two years, you know, they split the world championships now. But the reality is, yeah, I mean, the world championship is still a huge thing to try to succeed. But all of us want to win in Kona. I mean, that's the, that's the event that, you know, that's what an Ironman triathlete wants to do. Wants to do well at.

• 1:21:59Rich Roll?

  But you could just stick around, you know, in Hawaii for another month and then just do Ultraman.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  I, I just, I guess the problem would be, I, this time I haven't qualified. I didn't plan it properly, but certainly in the next couple of years, it's a hundred percent is. Cause I feel like my background from stage racing on a bike and obviously my triathlon background. In theory, it should be something that suits me quite well because of you, as you know, people, the listeners, you know, you do the swim the first day and a bit of the bike. And then you do a big bike ride the second day and then you do the double marathon.

• 1:22:30Rich Roll?

  It's a cycling race predominantly.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Pretty much.

• 1:22:32Rich Roll?

  It favors cycling for sure.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  You, you know, more than me, you've done it. So, yeah, so I think it is something I'd love to do.

• 1:22:39Rich Roll?

  I'll come and crew you.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  That'd be awesome. Yeah. Have some experience there.

• 1:22:43Rich Roll?

  Unbelievable. Um, one of the things that I think is, is this is kind of shifting gears a little bit. That, that I've noticed about you, I think is really smart. Is you recognize this privileged situation that you find yourself in where you are, you are elite in a sport.

• 1:23:05Rich Roll?

  That a lot of kind of, you know, amateurs like to participate in. And in many ways, cycling is sort of like golf now in terms of like business development and stuff like that. And, and you get invited to ride in all these grand fondos and participate in fundraising rides like best buddies and stuff like that. And that puts you in the environment of all these sort of successful businessmen and entrepreneurs. And I think you're really smart in the way that you. Leverage sounds like too opportunistic a word, but like you're aware like, oh, this is, this is like, this is, this is a privileged situation that I get to hang out with all these people and you're not squandering it. You're like, I'm, I'm getting to know all these guys. Like you're not somebody who, when, when the sun finally sets and you decide like you don't

• 1:23:50Rich Roll?

  want to be a professional athlete any longer, like you have all these people. Like I would imagine you'll find your way into a different career path, like quite easily because of these relationships that you've developed over many years.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. The, the CEO of our cycling team, John Allen, he actually suggested I read a book called The Tipping Point recently, Malcolm Gladwell and The Connector. And yeah, it is a fascinating read and it's funny reading that. You start to really see how you exactly you, you sort of touch on a lot of different, sport has allowed me and it's opened so many doors to meeting a bunch of great people. And then how do you piece all those things together, which I often do, you know, the introductions and different things that are, that are going on. I mean, as I say, with best buddies, able to do, connect bits, dots here to help with that and boost that. And yeah, a range of different things. So a hundred percent my

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  next, I was asked recently about, you know, what I want to do next. And there's, there's two sides to it. One is you've got to support your family, but obviously I want to give back in some way. And I feel like, you know, some sort of, I guess venture capital, private equity is a way to look at doing that because you're kind of helping businesses grow. You know, you can have a philanthropic, you know, angle to that perhaps. And you can sort of give other people an opportunity to succeed, you know, like I've been given so many opportunities to do what I can do. Sponsors stick by you, people stick by you, friends stick by you, people, you know, encourage you to do stuff. It would be great to offer that role back.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  And I realized that doing, competing at this level is, is the best way to continue to have those relationships because you develop a rapport and a respect and trust with others. People that are very successful and in that case it's like successful people in the business world. But in reality, you're both trying to compete, you're both trying to do the same thing. And so the level of people that you're exposed to is similar to the level that you're operating at, which obviously in turn means they're very, very good at what they do. And it's a huge opportunity for me to um to meet these people and and I really do cherish those relationships. So uh yeah, I'm really excited about the next phase, that's for sure.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  I really uh however that looks, I still don't know a hundred percent. But um there's just the one thing that's certain is all those incredible people. I know we we we spoke um Willie Walker, you know, common friend of ours. You're in India with, you know, but people like that, being able to do something where I can connect with all these people, I guess, is my ultimate goal, you know, and how that works. So that that, you know, I'm I'm able to that that network that I've developed and I'm sure will continue to develop. Which I believe is very, could be a very, very powerful network and just do something, you know, really meaningful in the future.

• 1:26:52Rich Roll?

  It uh it it like belies or like puts to puts the light of the idea that like, oh, you're just you're a professional athlete. Like you're just in this like extended adolescence, you know, and like, when are you going to grow up and be? But it's like, no, like you're you're around all of these amazing people who are, you know, excelling in all these interesting and different ways as entrepreneurs and business people and and um.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  And they motivate the hell out of me.

• 1:27:17Rich Roll?

  And they love hanging out with you, you know what I mean?

• 1:27:18Speaker 01

  It motivates me, you see their success and I guess a lot of that's like a monetary success. You you're just motivated by that, you think, wow, that's good, you want to succeed. You realize that, you know, success can bring you a lot of great things, you know, you can give back, you can have do have a great life yourself. I mean, that's what's wonderful about all these people, the environment that I meet them in. Often it is through best buddies, for example, you know, charitable, you know, charity organization and and and that's super in super inspiring. Um so yeah, no, I feel really grateful.

• 1:27:50Rich Roll?

  Do you think that that you're a guy who? Who, you know, a day will come where Ineos says, we're not going to renew your contract. Or, you know, like, maybe you're 60 at this point. I don't know. But at some point, probably, you know, a reality.

• 1:28:06Rich Roll?

  Are you somebody who you think like, okay, that chapter of my life is done and I'm going all in in this other area? Or are you going to be the guy who, yeah, I'm not competing for money necessarily, but I'm gonna, yeah, I'm gonna go do Ultraman. Or maybe I'm gonna ride Unbound or like, you'll stay, you'll continue to do these things as long as you, you know, are passionate about them.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  I love this Ironman. I do love it. I love everything about the experience of going to a race. You know, I mean, my son now, he can't wait to go to Kona and do Iron Kids, you know, that whole, I mean, I think that I could certainly see myself enjoying, just enjoying going and doing an Ironman and having a bit of a trip to somewhere where we haven't been or whatever else, keeping active. But I won't chase competitiveness, I don't think. I mean, I would have spent such a massive part of my life by the time that time comes, as you say. I mean, we've sort of this 45 or 2028, like, bent line seems to be a pretty good line in the sand. What happens over the next few years? Is there like a phase out?

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  You know, do I slowly phase more, you know, out of the cycling team, but get more involved in business in that time? While we're still competing, you know, trying to compete at the highest level. I mean, that's something that's potentially quite exciting.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  But, um, yeah, I think once I've, once I'm done at that level, I'll be pretty content with the competitiveness that I've had over the years. I don't think I'll be chasing too many, too many competitions.

• 1:29:37Rich Roll?

  Just doing it for the love.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, my son plays tennis, he plays golf. I'll be really happy actually playing those things as well with him. At that point, as opposed to riding my bike everywhere. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I love, I love exercising and I love being active. So one thing's for sure, I'll be doing something. But I think I'll be pretty happy. I think I'll always be a competitor, but I might just probably choose to be competitive in another discipline.

• 1:30:04Rich Roll?

  I would imagine, yeah. Just because, you know, you hang out. Yeah, the competitive nature doesn't like, you know, suddenly dissolve.

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  No, no, I don't never will. I mean, I read a great even quote by Musk recently, if you want to get old quickly, stop learning. You know, I mean, it's, it's so true. I mean, it's, you come here to America and you see, you know, people that are older just still pushing and pushing and pushing and they look young and vibrant and they're out of energy. You're like, where do they get it? Cause they're hungry, they're still wanting to succeed. I mean, the moment is, yeah, you can, you can stop and you'll stop quickly, especially as you get older, as you get older, the quick, the stop will happen even faster. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, I won't be, I won't be losing that edge.

• 1:30:51Rich Roll?

  You're the people's champion. You're, we're all pulling for you, buddy.

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  I appreciate that. I feel that.

• 1:30:57Rich Roll?

  Well, you gotta run, you gotta get to, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you go. But any kind of like parting final words, uh, for, for those that are gonna be tuning in to see you race in Kona?

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  Just enjoy, admire the, uh, the level of the sport. Yeah. And, um, yeah, just admire the sport and, you know, maybe it'll tug your heartstring. You might want to do one yourself. It's a great sport. I, I love it. I mean, it's really given me everything I have today and, uh, I love doing it with my family and, um, uh, yeah, it's a very unique sport. We're all out there together. Um, and, uh, this one just happens to be at the absolute highest level, but you know, the, it's all relative for everyone on that day. We're all going through the exact same thing, you know, from the first to last finisher. So, um, yeah, I mean, just encourage people if they are thinking about it, watch the sport and might inspire them to do one themselves.

• 1:31:51Rich Roll?

  Awesome, man. Uh, thanks for coming and share, sharing with us today, especially like last minute, spontaneously like this.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  Pleasure.

• 1:31:59Rich Roll?

  Um, I don't know how much more time you're gonna be spending in the area in the future, but it would be fun to have you back on just to talk about like general endurance stuff. Like it was fun to talk about Lachlan and. Ned.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:32:09Rich Roll?

  So, you know, massive kudos to Lachlan and nothing but crazy respect for Ned.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:16Rich Roll?

  Ned, who's in the middle of it right now.

• 1:32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was about to say.

• 1:32:18Rich Roll?

  Everybody's got to tune into this. Go on Instagram, find his account.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:20Rich Roll?

  Add the two D's. Give him a shout because he's, he's in the Hurt Locker right now.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  When you, when you're watching me race and you think, wow, what they're doing is crazy. Think about the fact that Lachlan did three times as far on the bike every day for 30 days. And Ned ran four of those marathons.

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  We ain't doing, we really ain't doing much at all.

• 1:32:39Rich Roll?

  His whole body's all taped up right now, including like he's having shoulder problems just from running. Like this is how, how, uh, you know, incredibly difficult this thing is that he's trying to do.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  That one is really mind boggling. Especially, at least Lachlan can kind of coast every now and then and roll a bit. Not that that may, not that that dwindles that at all, but for Ned, if he doesn't put one foot in front of the other, he doesn't, doesn't go anywhere.

• 1:33:01Rich Roll?

  Real.

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  Unreal.

• 1:33:02Rich Roll?

  All right, buddy. Well, best of luck.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:04Rich Roll?

  I'll be cheering for you. And again, thanks for coming and doing this, dude.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 1:33:09Rich Roll?

  Cheers.

• 1:33:18Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify and on YouTube and leave a review and/or comment. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors

• 1:34:01Rich Roll?

  who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors.

• 1:34:10Rich Roll?

  And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphics and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support.

• 1:34:55Rich Roll?

  See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.