How Spirituality Can Transform Your Love Life with Pastor Michael Todd

Y’all, it feels like we’re at an all-time high of cynicism about love—whether it’s staying perpetually single or jumping from one relationship to the next without ever truly pausing to reflect. So how do we break the cycle and find something deeper and more fulfilling? Pastor Michael Todd is here to explore how we can build meaningful, lasting spiritual connections with our partners. He opens up about co-writing his new book, “A Cup of Love,” with his daughter, and how being single ultimately enabled him to find true love. Then he shares some hot takes on cheating, materialism, and what really matters in relationships. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  This episode is sponsored by the good old folks over at Airbnb. This holiday season, be sure to check out the most loved homes on Airbnb by taking a look at guest favorites. Take it from me, some trips are better in an Airbnb. Now, let's start the show.

• 0:21Keke Palmer?

  Hey, it's your girl Keke Palmer here again, and today I've got someone who's all about taking relationships to the next level. He's a pastor and author, and someone who's been helping couples everywhere build strong foundations rooted in faith. Pastor Michael Todd is sitting down with us to talk about what it means to build a spiritual relationship within our romantic relationship, and how to align your love life with God's plan. So get ready, because baby, this is Keke Palmer.

• 1:18Keke Palmer?

  So, how you doing, Mom?

• 1:20Speaker 01

  I'm good, how are you?

• 1:21Keke Palmer?

  I'm good too. Glad to be in the studio with you.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Yes, I love those glasses.

• 1:26Keke Palmer?

  Thank you so much, Zinni. Um, okay, so let's get right into it. I'm talking to Pastor Michael Todd today. Do you know who that is?

• 1:32Speaker 01

  I did not know. I didn't know about him or anything. I just, you know.

• 1:37Keke Palmer?

  So I mean, he's a pastor. He speaks a lot about relationships. I feel like he really tries to take a very like millennial kind of like approach to his conversation. Like, he really tries to bring his background and, I don't know, I think he went viral for this Easter Sunday production that was like huge, very much so like those big mega church type vibes where they put on the show and the music and etc. I mean, there was one particular aspect to it where he was preaching, he spit in his hand and wiped it on the man's face, and a lot of people were like, "Oh, hell no."

• 2:06Speaker 01

  And this was online?

• 2:07Keke Palmer?

  This was like online. It was like, you know how they do it, what's happening in church, they show online. So, he got a lot of mixed reviews. Obviously, he has a huge support.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Where's he from, the church?

• 2:17Keke Palmer?

  I think Oklahoma. And it's called Transformation Church.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:22Keke Palmer?

  So yeah, so that's how I first came to know him.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26Keke Palmer?

  I'm looking forward to talking to him because I feel like he really is, you know, doing his best at trying to keep people's attention. But obviously, there's such a big conversation around like, what is self-indulgent, what is self-grandiose?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:37Keke Palmer?

  And then how much entertainment can be allowed in the church?

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:41Keke Palmer?

  When you preach?

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42Keke Palmer?

  And I mean, I'm curious with you because obviously, there's a different kind of attitude when it comes to Catholic church. And when the deacon is up there, or the bishop or whatever, or the priest.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:51Keke Palmer?

  And then, and Baptist church, where sometimes I do think there's a lot more energy.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:56Keke Palmer?

  In the Baptist church.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  It can get pretty theatrical in the church, you know? And that used to be one of my main problems. Like, I was a choir member. I was the director of the choir. Um, and it just seems like, uh, there are a lot of personalities in there. And sometimes, it can feel like you're like in a, like a R and B situation. You know what I mean? Because it's, it's just very clickish.

• 3:22Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  It's also very, like, if there's a great singer, you know, sometimes that person is treated a certain way. You know, the pastor kids are treated a certain way. It's a, there's a whole little.

• 3:34Keke Palmer?

  A level of politics, is what you're saying.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely.

• 3:37Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  There's a level of politics.

• 3:39Keke Palmer?

  I will be honest, a lot of people love mega church vibes. I think that I'm used to more of a, a, a, a, a smaller church, or like, like a more kind of like intimate type of vibe. But I can't say one or the other. I think how you feel you could receive faith the best is the way. So, if people like the theatrics, then hell, you know, enjoy the theatrics.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  That's what I say.

• 3:58Keke Palmer?

  And if you want something a little bit more docile, then yeah, then you like that. But I don't know that.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:02Keke Palmer?

  One is more wrong or whatever. I think it's preference, right?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  I think it's preference. I also think that, you know, if your heart is in the right place. And he's trying to motivate the congregation, and they're responding to it, and he's not doing no harm. You know what I mean? He's not telling anybody to do anything wrong.

• 4:18Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  There's nothing wrong with it. But I remember, like, one, one of our favorite shows was Greenleaf.

• 4:23Keke Palmer?

  Okay. Really did have some crooks though.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Yes it did.

• 4:28Keke Palmer?

  Okay, I love Keith David.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was, and it was like Keith David's character, he played the dad who was like the, the lead bishop, the pastor. He was a good and a, you know, he had bad.

• 4:39Keke Palmer?

  He was nuanced, which I think was the point of the show too. Which I do love when people speak on that because I do think there's this idea where it's like, if you prayed up, you got to be perfect. And then if like, you're not perfect, you have no place in the church. And it's like, but nobody on earth, like I love the thing when they say, you know, the person who, I forget, I'm gonna butcher it, but it's like whoever's cast the first stone.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, uh, the, cast whoever, um, be without sin, cast the first stone. I butchered it too, but you know, but you know what we trying to say? If you ain't got no skeletons, then throw the stone. If you got shit going on, then don't throw the stone. Now that's what I was trying.

• 5:19Keke Palmer?

  So what I love about that, which I think most of the time we think about like, oh yeah, you know, you know, you know, if you ain't perfect, you know. Well, what I loved about it was that even the perfect person in that situation who said that, which was Jesus.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 5:31Keke Palmer?

  Even he didn't cast the stone.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 5:33Keke Palmer?

  So it's like kind of, I don't wanna say sarcastic, but it's kind of like, that's the whole thing that it's saying unto itself is that actually even if you can cast a stone, show grace.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 5:45Keke Palmer?

  Because as a leader, that's your responsibility.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 5:48Keke Palmer?

  Is to lead with grace, kindness and compassion. Because Jesus could cast a stone.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 5:53Keke Palmer?

  But even he didn't. So why are you?

• 5:56Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 5:56Keke Palmer?

  Type vibe.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  And I also just feel like if Pastor Todd, if he's trying to reach a younger audience, and he's trying to get them engaged, and he's talking about relationships and young relationships, I think it is important to be nuanced. I think it is important that they don't come and see the same old thing. Now, if it's being theatrical, and it's over the top, and there's no real message to it, and it's just people being performative, then that's another thing.

• 6:23Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, but honestly, online is easy to get things without the full context.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:27Keke Palmer?

  Sometimes you'll just get one second or one little blip and then you're making like, I mean, maybe the people that's in there every Sunday with him, they rocking with that. And that, and it's like, feels totally full like a through line.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:37Keke Palmer?

  But if I'm only seeing one clip and you spitting on your hand and slapping somebody on the forehead, well yeah, that'd take anybody back.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I just hope the person he did that to was okay with it.

• 6:46Keke Palmer?

  The man was up there looking happy, am I a mispronounced?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Well, hey, look, if he happy with the spit, so am I.

• 6:51Keke Palmer?

  You know, anyway, so let's get into, I want to talk to you a little bit about relationships and faith. Obviously, dad is a deacon, you grew up in a church, you became Catholic after marrying him, which a lot of times, they say is the opposite, you know, the husband goes into whatever the wife religion is. But, I just wanted to know, did you build a greater sense of faith with dad? And you might have talked a little bit about it before on the show, but I'm curious.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  I've always felt that my relationship with God was strong. Like, I was raised to, you know, pray and to talk directly to God. So, the whole go through the priest and confession was kind of very weird to me. And to be honest with you, I've never done it.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Um, that was a part of Catholicism, I totally rejected.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  It was like, no.

• 7:39Keke Palmer?

  You are void.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  I'm not going to tell this little old white man with a bald head, any of my problems. Sorry.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  I may have murdered, but you will never know.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  And, uh, so I rejected that one. The whole concept of going into that little dark box. You know, spilling my guts out, and then Larry would tell me, well, you don't have to like, tell everything. You could just say something like, "I lied today at work," or "I did that," that's too much. Oh, that's just too damn much too, I'm not going to tell him anything. So, I rejected that part of it, but I think my relationship was good. I think what I wanted to do, and I was a young woman, I was like, maybe 24, 25 years old. What I wanted to do was to find a faith and a church for my children.

• 8:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, you kind of said it, but I guess what I want to get to is how

• 8:37Keke Palmer?

  Did you think about the role that faith could play in not just your marriage, but with your kids? Because I do feel like it was an active thing for you and dad when it came to us and having a faith. Like, I remember when I was really, really little, it was like every Sunday on the dot.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:52Keke Palmer?

  To the point where me and L'Oreal would be literally like, "I don't wanna go to church." Like, you guys were serious about church. We were always at a church banquet. We was always in a vacation Bible school. We was always doing something in the church and it was almost like ridiculous. But, and I remember our cousins used to tease us and, but they would come every Easter and Christmas.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, get their little baskets.

• 9:11Keke Palmer?

  And get the baskets, you know? But, what, why was that so important to y'all?

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Well, for us, it was so important. Like I said, it, it put you guys in a structure. One thing about church, because some people argue, "Should you go to church? Shouldn't you go to church? Why do you go to church? You don't have to go to church." I think it just puts you in a communion, a congregation of people that are like-minded. You know what I mean?

• 9:36Keke Palmer?

  Striving for the same goals.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Striving for the same goals, having little kids, wanting your little kids to have, you know, a, a set of values. You want them to know about Christ and, and religion and faith and discipline and all of those things. And I think that that's, to me, was the most important thing about a church, whatever faith it is, is that it's coming together with like-minded people that want the best out of life, you know?

• 10:04Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  And no, not, no, everybody's not perfect. You know, I've gone to churches where I, you know, like, "Oh, this church is something." But for the most part, I would say at least 70% of the people that are in, in most churches are there for good reasons.

• 10:19Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  You know, they're trying to, you know, like I say, find like-minded people.

• 10:23Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  People that have little, like, for us, we had little kids. So, we started talking and being friends with other people that had little kids. You know, and, and then you had a playmate. And now you got a playmate with, when the parents have values. You know what I mean? Versus you sending your kids to play with people that are...

• 10:41Keke Palmer?

  You don't know maybe their life. Doesn't mean nothing wrong with them, but you don't have a starting point.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Right, exactly, exactly.

• 10:47Keke Palmer?

  And I think, I think what you believe in, your faith and your moral compasses, it's not a terrible thing to at least find a common ground in.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Absolutely, and we all know of those homes in everybody's neighborhood where there is no supervision. You know, where the mothers is, you know what I mean? Doesn't have anything to do with going to church or not going to church, but not having a set of values. You know what I mean? And you, you know, you send, everybody had that house in their neighborhood. Oh, Mr. So-and-so house, Mr. Wright house, or, you know, where everybody getting high and, and the parents are smoking weed with the kids and, you know, you're like, what the hell kind of house is this? This is the house of irrepute. What's going on here? There's no church going on up in here.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  So, so, yeah.

• 11:30Keke Palmer?

  Or maybe it is, and that's the gag.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I said, I'm not gonna be sitting here being, um, you know, naive into thinking that if you go to church, that means you're a good person. Uh, I, I don't really, you know, I don't really make that judgment. I just think if you make an effort to, um, have faith and go to church on a regular basis, then chances are, you are trying to be a good person.

• 11:53Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  You're trying.

• 11:54Keke Palmer?

  I think, I think on a small scale, you're just also speaking to maybe like just commitment.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:59Keke Palmer?

  Commitment to something, discipline.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  And that's, it's funny you said that because that's why I asked your father, when he said he wanted to be a deacon. I said, why do you want to be a deacon? He said, well, because, you know, I wanna feed the homeless, you know? I wanna help the people in the church. I wanna, he, he listed all these things that he was already doing. I said, you already come home from work and make chili and take it to the homeless shelter. You already do it. Why do you need a title? I thought it was an ego thing. I was like, why do you need a title? And then he hit me with the, you know, he always got these deep words that make you feel foolish. He goes, because if I become a deacon, it is a commitment that I cannot back out from.

• 12:40Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  I was like, that's just some shit.

• 12:42Keke Palmer?

  It's funny because I was watching this TV show, Evil, and I know I've been talking about this show so much, but it's so interesting to me and it speaks about the connection.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  That show scares me.

• 12:50Keke Palmer?

  It's so scary but good, but that man, Mike Holter.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:54Keke Palmer?

  He remind me of dad, but he's a priest in the show.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 12:58Keke Palmer?

  And he said that, he was like, with all the things that's going on in this world and things that have no promise, I am committed to God. And that means something to me. And that is something that I cannot back down from.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:08Keke Palmer?

  And that, really, I was like, Larry?

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:11Keke Palmer?

  Like, I just love that actor.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's what he told me. He told me, said, "I want to be a deacon because that means I'm making a commitment that I cannot, you know, back away from."

• 13:20Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  And I, you know, I had to respect that. I was like, "Oh, okay, here we go. Opie Taylor."

• 13:26Keke Palmer?

  All right. It's time for me to get into this conversation with Pastor Michael Todd. Thank you, Mom.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Oh, you're welcome.

• 13:38Keke Palmer?

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• 14:20Keke Palmer?

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• 15:02Keke Palmer?

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• 15:48Keke Palmer?

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• 16:06Keke Palmer?

  I am thrilled to have today's guest here. Okay, he's the lead pastor of Transformation Church, a New York Times bestselling author, and he's known for delivering powerful messages that make faith feel real and relatable. You already know who it is, Pastor Michael Todd. Welcome to the show. I'm so excited to get to talk to you today. How are you?

• 16:26Speaker 02

  I'm great. What's going on, my sister? I'm so glad to be here with you. And you look beautiful. Your spirit is radiating. And I'm excited for this amazing conversation we get to have and everybody else gets to have with us.

• 16:39Keke Palmer?

  Yes, I couldn't agree more. Now, New York Times bestseller, I need to get some tips from you because you've already had a New York Times bestselling book. Okay, and then now you have a new book that you just put out called A Cup of Love this year. How are you feeling about that being out here? And especially coming out of such a successful previous book?

• 16:56Speaker 02

  So you got to realize my journey to being an author is one that is not even something I could have imagined. Like, I barely graduated high school. Okay, so like, being a three-time New York Times bestselling author, like, my baby mama had to help me with my homework in high school. Like, you know, it was-

• 17:18Keke Palmer?

  Come on, baby mama, that's a good one.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Come on, baby mama. And so to think that God could take something that I felt deficient in and turn it into something that helps so many people, is just a blessing. And I- This last book, A Cup of Love, is so special because I actually wrote this with my daughter.

• 17:35Keke Palmer?

  Wow. How old is your daughter?

• 17:37Speaker 02

  She's 10 years old.

• 17:39Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  This whole book, A Cup of Love, is a story about why me and her mom go on date night every Tuesday. And it's a real story of that happened in our lives. And we thought it would be important for people to understand how the relationships that you put a priority on actually give back to you and give you the life that you want. And so me and my daughter wrote this book called A Cup of Love together. And it's touching families and helping people. And it's a derivative of my first book, Relationship Goals: How to Win in Sex, Marriage, and Dating. And we're just trying to make it something that we don't wait till we're 30 plus to figure out how to do relationships right.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Like, we teach our kids how to do relationship right, and that would change everything.

• 18:26Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I love that because you do have the subtitle on the new book, A Cup of Love: Relationship Goals for Kids. And I was wondering what that meant, and you just explained it. What inspired you to write it? Was it simply just now wanting to translate that conversation after the success of the first book for adults? You just wanted to get it started for the kids, too?

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Well, the truth of the matter is, all of us are little kids trying to live in this adult world. And if you don't deal with the issues that you had when you were six, they just follow you till you're 46 and 56 and 66. And so the truth of the matter is when people are insecure or feel rejected or not seen at that young age, that's why they do all the things that they do when they get older. And so I thought that what better way to be able to start the process, not just of helping people find relationship goals and get their relationships in order when they're adults? But what if we could just, like, actually give a blueprint and a playbook for us to teach our children how to do the same thing?

• 19:26Speaker 02

  And so for me, I have four kids, and one day, they're gonna be dating somebody that I might have to kill. And, you know, I want them to know their worth. I want them to know their value. I want them to understand that there is a right way to do. Relationships and a lot of people out here playing. And I, I, I think that if we can start that conversation young, that there would be a foundation on the inside of them that will follow them and they'll know the right way to go. And so for me, I'm a man that thinks generationally. And I want people to be blessed, no matter if you're in your 60s, 70s, or you're six or seven. And I think that's why we decided to do it like this.

• 20:07Keke Palmer?

  I love the double entendre, Joe, of the kids and us all being kids, because sometimes we even need to strip it back and bring it down to the simplest form so that we can reengage. So I love that it's literally kids, but then also for the kid in us that still needs to relearn and unlearn some things that may be holding us back.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  You talking right.

• 20:23Keke Palmer?

  So today, I want to talk to you about the idea of building spiritual relationship within a romantic relationship, which you talk a lot about. What does spirituality bring to a romantic relationship, you would say?

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Well, the truth of the matter, for me, I believe that all of us are actually spirits having an earthly experience.

• 20:43Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I totally agree with that.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  The truth of the matter is like, our bodies are potentially the least form of us. You know what I'm saying?

• 20:51Keke Palmer?

  I couldn't agree more.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  And so our spirit knows when we walk in a room and something is off. Our spirit knows when somebody's trying to play us. Our spirit knows when we're in the wrong position, yet we give honestly not enough time paying attention to our spiritual life. And so I think that for me, when you talk about your spirit, that's actually who you are.

• 21:14Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  That's what I believe is going to live beyond the, the 70, 80, 90 years we get on this earth. And so for me, I really do believe that it's time for our generation to take more time and intention on feeding, actually building up and actually making sure our spirit is healthy. And that for me, I, I really believe the adage that healthy things grow. And so if you make sure your spirit is healthy, then you can align with other people whose spirits are healthy. But the truth of the matter is most people, because they don't think the spiritual is important until it's around death or around like a bad situation or around being scared, they never actually are intentional with it. And so for me, I just think your spirit is you.

• 21:59Keke Palmer?

  And I think to your point, it's also quite difficult when we aren't in a totally spiritual realm, right? We have to live with the binary aspects of life. Sometimes there's no nuance, especially in today's day. And everything is very this or that, up or down, left or right, black or white. And so I do think it becomes difficult to, how do I pull this spiritual element of myself in something that doesn't really allow it to exist? What are some of the most common ways you see a romantic relationship suffer from not incorporating spirituality into it?

• 22:30Speaker 02

  Well, people use this scripture all the time, but I believe there is some real power to it. People spiritually are unequally yoked.

• 22:37Keke Palmer?

  What does that mean to you? Let's, let's unpack that, because you know, we hear it so, we hear it so much. So what would you describe it as to somebody that doesn't, you know, know what that means or, oh, that's cliche?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, no, this is not cliche. This is actually very practical. And this is why I love studying the Bible, studying history, studying all this other stuff. Because a yoke was actually put on oxen. And so what would end up happening is back in the day, that when you would try to pull something, or you would be plowing the farm, you would need two very strong oxen on the same thing. And they would be tied around the neck with each other. So that when they would move, it would move in synchronicity and it would be at the same level. But if you got one ox that was strong and one ox that was weak, it would start to turn because they were unequally yoked. One was a lot weaker than the other,

• 23:28Speaker 02

  and you weren't able to go straight in a path or be able to reach the end goal because there wasn't equal strength. And I think that's what it comes to sometimes spiritually, is that we get, or even just relationally, or even just maturity wise, that many times we'll get with somebody because they look good, baby is fine, or my man's got the six pack, or they're, they're business savvy, or whatever the thing is. But you didn't go deeper. You didn't see what their value system looked like. You didn't see what their character actually has produced. You didn't see where their spirit is either fed or neglected. And so you get into this thing, you begin to love these people, you begin to buy houses with these people, have kids with these people,

• 24:10Speaker 02

  go on vacations with these people, and then one day you wake up and you realize, uh-oh, like... I'm stronger in this area that they don't even value. Or I'm hurting in an area that they don't care about. And a lot of times, that's why people go in circles in relationships. It's because they've never actually either built up the strength to be with somebody that is on the same page and same level. And I'm not saying perfect, but I am saying progressing.

• 24:39Keke Palmer?

  I love the word that you just said there because I think this is something that everybody wants to know, guys and girls. When it comes to this idea of relationships and understanding, especially when you're a faithful person, you believe in forgiveness, you believe in patience, you believe that people can grow. What are the delineating factors that allow you to know that this person can't get stronger? Right? Like, there's an idea, like, what do we think about, like, we're not equally yoked right now. But maybe eventually, you know, how do we deal with that as a Christian person? How do you deal with the realities of not throwing someone totally away? But also not bringing them close enough if they are gonna make you sick? Like, what are those?

• 25:14Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 25:15Keke Palmer?

  You know, that's tough, right?

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a tough thing, but I think one word, it's a B word. And it's a four-letter word for some people, but it has more letters in it. It's called boundaries. Boundaries are a blessing. And most people cannot see themselves giving somebody they love or they really like a boundary that would allow them to have the space to grow into who they're supposed to be.

• 25:37Keke Palmer?

  Now, that's bad.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  And so a lot of times, we're playing house where there actually needs to be a boundary. Like, you don't get to touch all on this. You don't get to have me on speed dial. You don't get to do this until I see some growth in that area. Until I know that you can make me a priority. Until I know that this is important to you. And so, yes, it is difficult sometimes because we all wanna see the best. Especially the people that we have memories with and have had time with. But until you set a boundary, sometimes people don't understand the blessing of who they can become after there's a boundary set. And so, if they're showing you over and over and over and over again that this is not important to them, growing in these ways are not important to them.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  Sometimes you're better off stepping back because what you're getting is you're getting

• 26:26Speaker 02

  sensitized to what your worth is.

• 26:28Keke Palmer?

  Yes, yes.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  And so what ends up happening is you start settling for things that are below things you would ever settle for with anybody else. But because of time served or how many moments you have or the children you have with these people.

• 26:42Keke Palmer?

  And I think honestly fear which a a a relationship whether it's for you or not. It's challenging you also to love yourself more and to be able to say this is what I need or this is what I can't do. And it's so important to have those boundaries, but it is difficult when you aren't completely having a strong relationship with yourself and love with yourself inside. To say no to that person, to actually show them the love that you're showing yourself enough to have that boundary. It's really tough, though. It really is.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Difficult. It's difficult because and I actually believe that the only way you can do that is by having a strong relationship with God. So, once you have a strong relationship with God, that changes the way you see yourself, which Dean can change the way you love somebody else.

• 27:23Keke Palmer?

  So, let's break that down. Let's talk about what that looks like, how that looks, right? Because I think sometimes people hear these things like, what does that mean? How does that mean? How do you reach that? I remember when I was doing this movie called Joyful Noise. Um, it was about music in a church and family and community and all this stuff. And this man, he was a part of the ensemble of the choir and he was talking about him and his wife. He said, being married is the closest you could be to God. And I thought, what is he talking about? What does that mean? I didn't understand. I was seventeen, but as I've gotten older, I really started to understand what that means, what that looks like, how, what a commitment means in that way. What is the reward at the end of that commitment? What it looks like going through hard times with someone and still choosing them and having that love, the same love that God has for us. So, I'm curious for you, how would you explain that journey of internal love with God?

• 28:08Keke Palmer?

  And being able to share that outwardly, if that's the way you would say it?

• 28:12Speaker 02

  So, the beautiful thing about um, having a relationship with God is there's this book called the Bible. That there is a lot of principles as well as facts, as well as historical moments that allow us to look at the love of God in action. So, that's, that's the first part of it. The Bible says, for God so loved the world, not because he was bored or because he needed some. Then he said, because he's loved the world, he gave. Well, right there, just that.

• 28:41Keke Palmer?

  Come on.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Just right there. If you take that principle, extract that principle. That means if you love, you have to give something.

• 28:49Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  Like, and the truth of the matter is, most of us live selfishly. Like, the only reason I'm trying to do this is so I can get something, or I can have sex, or I can be with you, or I can, you know what I'm saying? But like, switch that. How do you define love if there is not some type of exchange, sacrifice, giving? And service, and that's where for me, I made a decision early on, I was like, the Bible tells me that I cannot love my neighbor, my girlfriend, my wife, except to the level I can love myself. And so I gotta figure out how to love myself. And the only way I can love myself is by going to the manufacturer, the one who built me. If my iPhone breaks.

• 29:33Keke Palmer?

  Come on.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  If my iPhone breaks, I could actually ask my brother or my friend, or people who watch a bunch of things, like, how can you fix this? But the sure way to know how my iPhone works is to go back to the manufacturer who made it. And I think for me, that's why reading the Bible is important. Prayer and meditation is important, listening to worship music, listening to sermons and getting different things. Because it helps me know more about me, my relationship with God, which allows me to love myself, and then I can extend that love to somebody else.

• 30:11Keke Palmer?

  As I was saying earlier, Audible's Best of the Year picks are in, and honey, I am sad. Every year, Audible puts together a list of the best of the best when it comes to audio entertainment. I'm talking top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals in all your favorite genres. The works, okay? Now my ears are immediately perked up when I saw that they listed Supreme Court Justice Katanji Brown Jackson's memoir, lovely one, as one of the year's must-listen titles. I checked it out, and it basically felt like I was having a heart-to-heart with the first black woman on the Supreme Court, okay? Really powerful stuff, y'all. Memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers from romance and well being to fiction.

• 30:52Keke Palmer?

  Audible's carefully curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's Best of the Year in audio entertainment. Audible, I mean, there's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com/bestoftheyear and discover all the year's best waiting for you.

• 31:12Keke Palmer?

  You talk about the importance of being single as a time when God reveals to you who you are. I think we often try to skip over that part and I really would love for us to have a lot more kindness and patience with ourselves that only through lived experiences of what we don't want, do we find what we need, right?

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Come on, man.

• 31:30Keke Palmer?

  And so, talk to me about that time in your life where you met your wife when you were 15, but then you guys took a break for a period of time.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:37Keke Palmer?

  What did you learn?

• 31:37Speaker 02

  I call it the 10 months of insanity. That's, that's what happened for me because I, I was listening to other people. I was listening to culture. I was listening to people who did not have what I had, thinking I needed something else. And I didn't realize that God had given me the most precious gift I would ever get at a young age. And I had to grow up from a boy to a man to understand how valuable that treasure was. And so, through that 10 months of being away and acting up and talking to her and trying to be with her and doing all of these different things, I realized that there were many parts in me that I didn't even know who I was because I had not given myself space in singleness

• 32:19Speaker 02

  to actually be silent, to steal and observe it in who I am and what I wanted. And so, I could easily allow people to throw in suggestions and opinions and I would go with that, but I didn't know what Michael wanted. And I think that we have such a noisy generation right now where there's so many opinions and.

• 32:40Keke Palmer?

  It's just an easy access to information and it's hard to filter through.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Everything. And you can't filter. And so, everybody feels like I need to be in a relationship. People holding balloons up in white rooms and popping them, trying to get, find somebody.

• 32:53Keke Palmer?

  You love that show at times.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  No, it's actually hilarious, but the truth of the matter is. Look at all of the people who some of them, if they would just take a year to discover who they were. Like if they would just know, because when you meet somebody, you're actually reflecting off of them who you are. And the truth of the matter is, most of us don't even know who we are reflecting. And that's why my prayer for every person out there that is in their singleness season, I need you to know that is not a curse, that's a blessing. Like, singleness is not something that is like, oh, I can't wait to get in that. I'm telling you, there's some things in singleness that, that you'll never get again when, when you get in a relationship. You don't get to, you don't gotta check in with nobody.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  You don't gotta worry about nobody else, what they want to eat. You don't gotta worry about how your emotions are feeling. You can really learn how to love self. And so I tell people all the time, like, that season of singleness that you're in is actually preparation. And we know that the best meals are not ones that we get fast. The best meal doesn't happen in 15 and 20 minutes. It's not microwaveable. It's something that takes time. And I just think that that singleness season is a time of discovery and a time where you can get closer to God and discover the things that nobody else can tell you. So that when you do get in a relationship, it actually prospers.

• 34:16Keke Palmer?

  And for you, which I think is a really big piece for all of us when we're talking about this, is it also seemed like it was a time for accountability. You know, where you can actually sit and think, like you say, you thought about it and say, okay, wait a minute, how can I readjust and how can I reflect on the role that I play? Which I'm sure maybe in her own way, she did the same things, um, you know, that were able to bring you guys together. Now, I do want to talk about all this information online, trying to filter through the information you're receiving. I mean, you get a lot of attention, specifically in the way that you preach the word and people's expectations of what it should look like for a pastor, how he should be. But the role entertainment has in that. So I want to break this down in a couple of sections. My first question to you is, what do you think the role of entertainment is or can be in religion?

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Well, I think that word entertainment, depending on who's saying it, seems bad. But I think that it's about keeping somebody's attention. Like, entertainment is not the way that I would describe anything that I'm doing. I'm trying to make sure that I have somebody's attention. And I'm really preaching to me. I'm preaching to the young black male who doesn't like church, can't stand what happened in my grandma's church, really want to be at the game, don't care about what's happening, and I'm trying to smash old girl sitting over there. Like, that's who I was. And so, when I come into church and they don't acknowledge me, they don't, they don't do any, they just say cliches,

• 35:47Speaker 02

  and they're not trying to teach me anything. I'm checked out of that. And that's why so many minorities, especially young minorities, are out of church, because it doesn't make any sense, especially in the world that we live in today. Like, the story of the Bible is the most interesting story, the number one soul book in all of history. The principles in it can transform your life. And for me, it transformed my life. And so, Kiki, like, I made a decision, like, when I went from being a liar, a manipulator, addicted to pornography, a bad person, had all kinds of crazy stuff in my heart, when God changed me, I was like, I'mma use everything I have, everything. If it's just for one person to be able to know the love of God, I'm gonna do that. So, my natural personality is funny.

• 36:31Speaker 02

  My natural personality is loud. Like, that's who I am.

• 36:36Keke Palmer?

  I was just going to say that I'm, obviously, I'm not a pastor, but I am a storyteller, and I do have deep messages that I like to get across as an artist. And I am also quite flamboyant.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Pastor Kiki sounds kinda good, though. Pastor Palmer does sound kinda good. I'll tell you.

• 36:49Keke Palmer?

  My dad is a Deacon, so we do have Deacon Palmer. We do have Deacon Palmer.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 36:54Keke Palmer?

  To your point, like, I am flamboyant, big, dramatic. I use humor. Sometimes I use tears to also tell my stories and my messages. And I remember when you did the Easter Sunday thing, and people had a lot of, you know, responses. And I was like, damn, that is kinda crazy and dramatic. But at the same time, I, I don't know if I was, how I would, if I was a pastor in this day and age, how I would have to think about bringing light and attention to the Word in a way that doesn't feel like it is separate from me.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:25Keke Palmer?

  So, I don't, you know, it's easy to, I think, criticize. Something that you don't have to try to do. So when you are trying to do it and you are trying to reach out, I think you are figuring it out the best way that you know how. What did you think that you learned from that situation? And how that affected maybe the way you wanted to do it differently? Or how do you speak to people that feel like that was too much?

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I definitely value people's observations. I don't necessarily try to fix their opinions. Because I have to be me. The only life that I get is the one that God gave me. If I was, I tell people all the time, if I was an Amazon truck driver, I would be loud, I would have a speaker on my clip. I would be talking to the people, this is me. And I believe that's the beautiful thing about God. He gave me my personality. He didn't tell me to be a pastor in spite of it. And so from that Easter production, over 3,000 people got saved, gave their life to Christ. Well, nobody's talking about the transformation that's happened to the people that put down drugs, all that other stuff.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  They're saying, oh, my goodness, there was fire and demons and they was doing this stuff. And we were making a dramatic play, just like anybody would do on any type of platform that was for the arts. And it was just good. And so I learned a lot of things, Kiki. One thing I learned is that the church and people who criticize the church think that it should fit inside of a box for a day. They don't think that it should be excellent or it should come outside of the moment. Because they want to live in Monday through Saturday over here. And then I go to church for two hours and then that's my like God box. And I learned like, oh, wow. And it's not just people who don't know God.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  I'm talking about like people who like are in it.

• 39:14Keke Palmer?

  Well, I mean, I think that people don't feel like our everyday living can be intertwined. Like it immediately goes secular or righteous. And it's not a place for those lessons to sit in between. And I think it maybe, it maybe could do us some good if we actually stopped, you know, I don't know if the world would be self loathing, but thinking that who we are as we are is not acceptable in a place of God.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  See, you got a spot at Transformation Church Pastor Palmer. I'mma just tell you right now, you can come and do Fifth Sundays. You hear me?

• 39:45Keke Palmer?

  You are hilarious.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  The truth of the matter is, if Jesus was on the earth today, what would probably be his profession? He would be a movie producer. He told stories. He literally sat down and told parables to huge groups of people. And that word parable is parable. That means a story that actually gives a truth. He would have been doing that. But for me to do that, it was just me trying to reach people who ain't never come into church.

• 40:20Keke Palmer?

  I got excited when you said it because I think that that's why I am a storyteller. Growing up in the church and hearing those stories and getting those messages. That is why I love telling stories. So it's, it is, you know, I remember thinking that and growing up and hearing this story and a prodigal son and oh my gosh. And I love these stories because they made me feel like I was seen, you know?

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:43Keke Palmer?

  Which, which is interesting because that's what you said you're trying to do.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  That's me too. And so just grateful for it.

• 40:47Keke Palmer?

  Wow. Okay.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  I like talking to you, Kiki, Pastor Palmer.

• 40:51Keke Palmer?

  I like talking to you too. I like talking to you too.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  It almost, it almost kind of looks like we cousins. I, we need to run a B and A check or something. It feel like we, we missed each other at the family reunions.

• 41:03Keke Palmer?

  Where your, where your people them from? You know how they say, where your people them from?

• 41:06Speaker 02

  My people from Louisiana and Alabama.

• 41:08Keke Palmer?

  Okay, okay.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:10Keke Palmer?

  I ain't got no people down here. My folks, Arkansas, Mississippi, Tennessee, you know?

• 41:15Speaker 02

  That's all still Midwest country, South kind of situation. You never know what's happening. You never know.

• 41:21Keke Palmer?

  Honestly, I could talk to you all day. I'm so mad. I wanted to get into so much more stuff about relationships and a couple of love and all that. But that means we got to have a part two.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  We got to do it again. This is easy.

• 41:32Keke Palmer?

  It has been awesome to talk to you. And before I let you go, I got to do what I always do. I play a game and if you down for it, we can get into it.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  I'm down.

• 41:39Keke Palmer?

  Okay, this one is called, what would Pastor Mike do? Okay, so I'm going to give you different relationship scenarios and you tell me what the right thing to do is. Sound good?

• 41:50Speaker 02

  This could be dangerous. This could be dangerous. I'm down. Okay, this could be dangerous. Let's go.

• 41:55Keke Palmer?

  Okay, you suspect your partner is cheating on you. You see they've left their phone out. Do you pick up the phone and read through their messages or not?

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Yes. I, I, I don't, listen.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  Uh, listen, hey, listen, if we, if we supposed to be doing this thing, I believe in transparency. And honesty, ain't no secrets, ain't no WhatsApp. Why you in WhatsApp? Ain't nobody out the country, like, we need to be honest.

• 42:21Keke Palmer?

  What do we say to the people that's gonna say, well, Pastor, you was just talking about boundaries. What if that's my boundary, not to let nobody in my phone? How does that play into, you know, having no line? Okay, so how do we tie that in?

• 42:33Speaker 02

  So, the truth of the matter is, speaking as somebody that comes from secrets, like, that's the life that I used to live. There was nothing on the, good on the other side of my secrets. There was something I was always trying to hide, something I was still trying to give life, something that was a backup plan to a backup plan. And so, for me, when, when I, when I see secrets or people getting, um, matter of fact, I'm in my office right now, and I have a stack of, of, um, privacy screens from men's cell phones that were hiding things. And they came to a men's gathering, and I said, if there's any men in here that's been hiding things, from your wife, from your kids, from everything, I said, if you have a privacy screen on your phone, so the person right next to you,

• 43:18Speaker 02

  which is probably somebody you love, can't see what you looking at, I said, you're out of line. I said, you're supposed to be a man of integrity, a man that can be, um, trusted when it's in front of people, and when it's behind closed doors. And I said, if you're in here and you a real man, or you wanna be a real man of integrity, I said, come bring me your privacy screens. I have a stack full of screens, cuz people were holding secrets.

• 43:46Keke Palmer?

  Interesting.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  And I've gotten testimony after testimony of people. Now, I understand if you in the government, or the CIA, or the, all that other stuff, but that don't mean...

• 43:53Keke Palmer?

  Maybe you talking to your mama about you got a boil on your booty. I mean, it could be things.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Okay, that, that can work too. But the truth of the matter is, what's the harm in the person you love seeing that text?

• 44:02Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  There's no problem with that.

• 44:03Keke Palmer?

  They done seen the boil anyway.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  They done seen your booty and the boil. You hear what I'm saying? So, what I'm saying to you is, like, I just, for me, I stay away from all secrets because that feeds my lower nature. And if I give it room to breathe, breed, and grow, at some point, it will devour me and kill something that I love.

• 44:26Keke Palmer?

  Okay. It will go again.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  I didn't, I'm sorry I went too deep on that. I know we supposed to be playing the game, but.

• 44:31Keke Palmer?

  No, no, no, there is no too deep. That's, that's what we want, that's what the people need. Okay, you're dating someone and everything is perfect. Okay, you share a strong spiritual connection, you're making plans to get married and buy your dream house together, then your partner unexpectedly suffers an enormous financial loss and you can no longer afford your dream house with that person. You lose your sense of the future you envisioned with them. Do you abandon the dream or abandon the person?

• 44:57Speaker 02

  No, you, you, you abandon the dream. Uh, I don't think you abandon the person. Um, people are living their dream lives without anybody to share it with. And it's one of those really sad situations that you can have the house, the car, the prestige and then go home in a 5,000 square foot house that's paid for with a Lambo outside and a G-Wagon and still feel completely alone. Like, God says in his word that two are better than one. Finding your person, finding the right people, finding community, that's important in this life, especially when there's a lot of counterfeits out here.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  And so if you found the right person and it's just money and things that actually are missing temporarily, because the truth of the matter is that person had the ability to get to that status once, they can get to it again. I think that the truth of the matter is having the right people is more important than having paper.

• 46:00Keke Palmer?

  Our generation speaks a lot about gender roles, 50/50. And I, I, I've heard you not say a bunch of gender roles stuff, but you do say as a man or as a woman. What do you think about that in terms of the whole financial load? I'm just curious of how you see that because it's a lot of, he gotta take me to Bali the first date, or he gotta pay for everything, you know what I mean? And I, and I'll be honest with you, in my opinion, I don't know any man or woman that can really do all that like that, especially in our age group. So I'm curious of how we thinking about what a man's role is. You know, in this economic place.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  The downturn, huh? Like, it is. No, I got you. So I'm old fashioned. I was raised by a man that is like the quintessential gentleman. My father, him and my mom have been married forty five years. He still surprises us with gifts and does everything that he can. But my mother, for most of my life, was the breadwinner of our house.

• 47:03Keke Palmer?

  Same in mine.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  My dad, now watch this.

• 47:06Keke Palmer?

  More or less.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  My dad was the leader of our home, but my mom brought home the bacon. And I think it's a thing of respect and honor. I think no matter who is bringing home the most money, the truth of the matter is people use that as ammunition to defend themselves against their own insecurities.

• 47:28Keke Palmer?

  Ooh.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I know. Because there was a season in my life where I was on the come up, where my wife worked a good job and she made more money than me. And I was building something and she knew I wasn't lazy and she knew that I was working. And we would go out to eat and I couldn't pay for it, but under the table she would hand me the card. And she would honor me by letting me pay for the meal on her debit card. That woman has no need for anything because when God turned the tables and she allowed me to still lead the home and not emasculate me. And it has turned into the greatest blessing of her life. And so that's the thing, no matter who it is and where it is,

• 48:11Speaker 02

  I do think there is a little sensationalism around. Like, my man gotta come and do this and do this and do this. And it's like, baby, like, that's not even real. Like, unless you are marrying an NBA player who's gonna cheat on you probably a lot, like, you don't need to.

• 48:25Keke Palmer?

  Now, pass the mic.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Now, I'm just saying, like, the truth is the truth. Like, you want a Birkin bag, but you don't want exclusivity. Like, he's gonna share it around. So the truth of the matter is, I think we need to be looking for character more than we're looking to play a character. Like, like, and that's where, for me, I think it's the person. Like, you gotta make sure that you're aiming and being the person. And I think some people just missed it. So many people are really obsessed on who they're going to be with instead of who they are being.

• 48:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Because you only can attract

• 49:01Keke Palmer?

  What you are.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  The level of character that you are.

• 49:05Keke Palmer?

  I couldn't agree more. I could talk to you all day. We might have to do this again, Pastor Mike.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  We go, let's do it next week.

• 49:11Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  You hear me? Let's do it. Pastor Palmer, my cousin.

• 49:15Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  We got to have Faith Fridays or something. Come on, we gonna have to do that.

• 49:20Keke Palmer?

  You are the bomb. Thank you for coming to the show. God bless you and your family.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  I love you so much.

• 49:25Keke Palmer?

  Love you too, baby. Take care.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  God bless.

• 49:28Keke Palmer?

  God bless. I enjoyed hearing Pastor Mike Todd's perspective. I think he's really helping us to see a spiritual dimension to relationships that we can often overlook these days. My biggest takeaway is that no matter what your faith is, there's something very universal about the purpose that you have in relationships. And if you don't find yourself elevating each other, maybe it's not worth it. So get out there and find someone to lift you up. And I'll see you next week because you know it's your girl.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Baby, this is, this is Kiki. Baby, this is Keke Palmer, yeah.

• 50:06Keke Palmer?

  Enjoy Baby This is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts, and now on YouTube where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the Wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to Baby This is Keke Palmer early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Baby This is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Segal is our post-producer. Music supervisor is Scott Valesquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer. For Team Kiki, my producer is Sharon Palmer. For Wondery, our managing producer is Olivia Fonte. Our producer is Tristan McNeil.

• 50:49Keke Palmer?

  Senior producers are Lizzie Bassett and Candice Manriquez-Britt. Our executive producers are Date Easton and Marshall Louie.