99: How to Ask For Help. How to Deal With Incorrect Feedback. Maintain an Unpredictable Schedule.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:00:13 - Is Important Paperwork Important? 0:10:59 - As a strong leader, is asking for help okay? 0:15:19 - How to deal with incorrect feedback. 0:26:17 - Taking Ownership VS Being The 'Easy Button' 0:30:11 - Should you appear passionate about your job? 0:41:04 - How to be disciplined when you come from an undisciplined background. 0:57:44 - People will mock you if you take leadership seriously in THIS way. 1:10:44 - Important tips to lead a team of volunteers. 1:15:51 - Should you continue training Jiu Jitsu if you hate it? 1:30:00 - How to maintain a good personal schedule with an unpredictable work schedule. 1:33:03 - A letter from a Trooper that we all can learn from. 1:38:35 - Closing Thoughts. 1:40:34 - Support: JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, Super Krill Oil and Joint Warfare http://originmaine.com/origin-labs/jocko/, Origin Brand Apparel http://www.originmaine.com, withJocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com, Onnit Fitness stuff, http://www.onnit.com/jocko and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. http://amzn.to/2szgaEj 2:04:07 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 99 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  It is a day for Q and A. Let's go.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Right into it. All right, let's do it. Jocko, hey Jocko, as the director of our sales department, I require my guys to fill out sales call interaction logs. I have one guy who thinks because the sales are up,

• 0:27Speaker 01

  this no longer is important, nor does he have the time. How do you handle situations like this?

• 0:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so as I got this question, I'm like, okay, I've answered this before. I'm not going to answer it again. I've gotten something close enough and you know what's interesting? I talked to some people now. I talked to a lot of people and they say, hey, you know, on a Q and A, I know what you're going to say.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:48Jocko Willink?

  You know, and I'm like, oh yeah, that's awesome. They say, I still need to hear it. But I know what you're going to say. And I said, okay, cool. That's good. That means, you know, people are starting to expand their brain a little bit. Maybe see a different perspective that they might not have had before. So that's good, in my opinion, right?

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04Jocko Willink?

  Now, also what I realize is as you answer, as I answer these questions, there's additional information, right, that comes out. Once you make a certain level of understanding, then there's more understanding to be had. And so that's what I realized with this question, as I thought, well, okay, there's this standard answer, right? The standard answer is, okay, you got people and they're not doing what you want them to do. And what do you do then? Well, the fact is, the real standard answer that everybody now knows, if you've been listening to podcasts is, they need to know why they're doing what they're doing. They need to know why it's important. They need to know how them filling out those forms will help the company and therefore help

• 1:44Jocko Willink?

  the individual that needs to fill out the forms because it'll provide better intel with to the company that will provide them more accurate advertising, which will in turn make them be able to sell more, which will in turn make the cost to produce the product go down because they're selling more. And that means he has better pricing to sell things with and he'll be able to sell more and make more money. And so you have to tie that whole thread through. That's kind of the standard answer, which everybody should know. If someone's not doing what you want them to do, you need to make sure they understand why they need to do it, why it's important, how it ties back to them. Okay, so boom. We get done with that standard answer. Now there's the next level, right? Now we're going like to purple belt.

• 2:26Jocko Willink?

  And, and here's the non-standard answer. Here's the advanced answer, the purple belt answer is, okay, now let's ask yourself this piece of paper that you're having him fill out.

• 2:39Jocko Willink?

  Is it really actually important?

• 2:42Jocko Willink?

  Is it actually important? What purpose does it actually serve? Because you're, you want this guy who's a, who's a good producer, his sales are up. And you want him to continue to fill out these sales interaction logs. So that you can track and make sure that he's making enough calls, that he's got to write the right approach, that he's using the right verbiage when he's talking to his customers or clients. And so you want him to fill this out, but now he's actually doing well. And you gotta ask yourself like, okay. What purpose is this thing serving? Now that the guy is doing well, what purpose is it serving? May- maybe at a certain level, you say, you know what? You don't need to fill that out anymore. If you'd sell 10 units a day.

• 3:26Jocko Willink?

  You don't need to fill this out anymore. If you sell eight a day, you gotta fill out your logs because we gotta check and see what you're doing.

• 3:33Jocko Willink?

  That, that's, or are you just making this person do it? Because that's what everyone does.

• 3:44Jocko Willink?

  So if you can't, if you can't answer the question yourself, why it's important. Then maybe you should check. Why you have this thing in place? So again, we put things in place to help people, but at a certain point, it is possible that they don't need to do it anymore. The, some salespeople, if, you know, maybe you want people to make eight phone calls a day and you want them to log down what they did. Okay. What, what if this guy's doing 28 phone calls a day? And, and he wants to get to 38 phone calls a day, but he can't because he's filling out your paperwork. Okay. So if people are meeting the numbers. Maybe you raise the bar a little bit, make him, and, and you give him more freedom. He's got the self-discipline, right? He's got the discipline to make calls. He's making the numbers. His numbers are up.

• 4:29Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Give him some more freedom. Maybe he can turn that into more production. If he starts to lag off, guess what? Hey bud, if you keep selling 10 units a day, we're good. You don't need to fill out this crap.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  You go to nine, you're back on the, back on the, filling out of paperwork. Guess what he's gonna do? He's gonna sell 10 every day, he's gonna sell 12, he's gonna sell 15.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:50Jocko Willink?

  And then I would tell him, I'd say, hey, look, if you sell 15 units a day, I'm gonna fill out a piece of paperwork that says you're awesome. I'm gonna do it every time you sell 15 units.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  Yep, that's good.

• 5:00Jocko Willink?

  Boom, little fun.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:03Jocko Willink?

  So, that's it. There's, there's the, there's the white, maybe three stripe white belt answer. Everyone should know at this point, followed by a little bit more advanced, purple belt move. Ooma plata.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Sure. And at the same time, that's not to say that it's guaranteed not important.

• 5:20Jocko Willink?

  Not at all.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  You're just saying make that evaluation.

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  Not at all. And there, there is a chance that I'm wrong, right? That the paperwork that gets filled out actually really does get put into a data file that can then be used to, to, you know, target certain customers or follow up with certain customers. And if that's the fact, you explain it to the guy and how it's gonna benefit him and we're back to answer number one, which worked.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:41Jocko Willink?

  Which is fine.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, there you go. Thanks.

• 5:44Jocko Willink?

  Right and wrong. Right and wrong are interesting concepts.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:49Jocko Willink?

  And, and people sometimes get wrapped around right and wrong.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:54Jocko Willink?

  They, they just think that there's a right answer and there's a wrong answer.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  And, and many times, neither question or neither answer is right or wrong, or both answers are right and wrong.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:07Jocko Willink?

  You gotta open your mind on these things. You gotta open your mind, you know, it's like we talked about with jujitsu schools. Should a jujitsu, should a jujitsu school be strict, bow to your professor, everyone wear the same uniform, um, not allowed to ask people to roll? Or should it be, hey, wear whatever you want, the instructor's named Jocko, and go in there and cruise and train hard? Which one is right? The answers are both right. You can, both of those have benefits. And some people flourish in one kind of school and some people flourish in another kind of school and you can't say one's right or wrong. Same thing, I used to run in the slot with, in the SEAL teams with tactics. Like, should we enter the room like this? Or, like this?

• 6:49Jocko Willink?

  And the the answer is actually, well, which is better in that scenario? And sometimes this one's better and sometimes that one's better. And so if your mind can be more open, you'll be able to use more options, which is beneficial.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. That scenario kind of reminded me of one of my, it was a friend of a friend. And it was actually my friend's friend's wife. And she was saying, yeah, she's kind of making light of the fact that they forced their kids to watch a Charger game or something on this day or whatever. And the kids don't like football.

• 7:28Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Or the kid, the one kid, don't like, doesn't like football, doesn't like watching football, doesn't like this whole thing. And she was like, oh, no, it's a, it's a tradition, you know, so, you know, we make them do it. It's a tradition, all this stuff. I'm kind of thinking like, okay, I mean, that's cool that it's like your tradition, but like, no one likes it. Like, so what is the tradition doing? I mean, I understand, like, if you have a tradition, everyone likes it. Or the tradition and it improves, like, I don't know, the cohesion of the family and or something like that.

• 7:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  And, you know, for all these beneficial reasons and one way or another beneficial. But, I mean, if you're doing it just for the sake of, you know, the tradition,

• 8:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  like this paperwork situation.

• 8:04Jocko Willink?

  And also, what are you doing if you're telling your kid, like, no, you'll watch the football game?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:08Jocko Willink?

  Especially now that everyone hates the Chargers because they left San Diego.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a long time ago, but yeah, yeah.

• 8:13Jocko Willink?

  But, but if you tell your kid, hey, no, it's a time for our family to get together. And you don't got to watch the game, but hang out. We're gonna have some hot dogs.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:23Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  And we're just, that's what it is.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:25Jocko Willink?

  It's not about staring at the, at the screen, watching something that you don't like.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  It's about hanging out, you know, grandma's coming over.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:32Jocko Willink?

  Auntie's coming over.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 8:34Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna cruise. We're gonna eat

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:36Jocko Willink?

  barbecued chicken, right?

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 8:39Jocko Willink?

  That's different than, hey, you sit down and watch the football game.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:42Jocko Willink?

  But when kids reach a certain age, they don't want to hang out with you for a certain time period.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  That's what started my whole argument right there.

• 8:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  With, no, it wasn't an argument, but that's what started my little discourse.

• 8:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. At a certain time period, your children are supposed to rebel against you.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:57Jocko Willink?

  Somewhat because they because they have to convince themselves in their mind that they they're gonna leave.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:03Jocko Willink?

  And they're gonna be on their own. And and something in their mind triggers that to be like, okay, I need to separate myself from these other humans that have been caring for me. Since I was wearing diapers.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:13Jocko Willink?

  And now I need to get that out of my head and figure out how to survive on my own. So they they do that. By rebelling against you and saying, I don't watch this stupid football game.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:22Jocko Willink?

  I want to go to my friend Mary's house.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:24Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna do something over there, right? That's.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you think that there's an element of like a pray, you know how like when you're a kid and you hit like thirteen?

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Twelve, thirteen years old, you start to get this like empowered feeling, you know, because you're like physically kind of growing up and then. Your parents are kind of, you have this feeling of oppression, not that your parents oppress you.

• 9:46Jocko Willink?

  Things are totally, that's exactly what I'm saying.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  So you're, I'm like, it's so it's like an actual rebellion, like you can oppress me no more. I don't have to ride with you, you know, I don't have to walk with you in the mall.

• 9:58Jocko Willink?

  No, I'm out.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:00Jocko Willink?

  And and you're trying to do that because you realize subconsciously that these people are not going to be here. I need to learn how to fend for myself. I need to get out of the nest.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:10Jocko Willink?

  Start flapping them wings.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  But yeah, exactly. But the tradition, just for the sake of the tradition. Because actually, my whole argument with the lady was that you was trying to not necessarily prove, but try to find out whether or not she even thought about it. Like, why are you making your kid do it?

• 10:28Jocko Willink?

  Traditions that are important, right? Within a family, within a culture. But if you lose fact, if you lose, if you don't understand the meaning of the tradition.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:38Jocko Willink?

  Then it doesn't make sense to you.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:40Jocko Willink?

  So then you don't care about it.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:43Jocko Willink?

  But if you say, hey, look, this is our family and this is when we get together, this is the only time, it's a tradition, so we're gonna do it.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:51Jocko Willink?

  And that way we get to know each other and that we we keep connected. We can help each other.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Cohesion.

• 10:56Jocko Willink?

  Cohesion.

• 10:58Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Jocko, as a leader, at what point am I allowed to go to others and say, I need you? Because I recognize I'm not capable of pushing toward forward on my own? Or should that be an instance where I need to take a step back and apply more discipline to my life? And find a way to push forward by myself?

• 11:18Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you are allowed to say that to your team member immediately that you need them. Absolutely. If you, of course, you need your team because if you didn't need your team, why would they be there? If you, if you can do everything yourself, then you don't have a team.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:33Jocko Willink?

  Right? You just do everything yourself. So while you of course should be working hard and you should be applying discipline. As a leader, it's your job to actually lead things.

• 11:44Jocko Willink?

  And to let other people support and make things happen. And there's nothing wrong with that. You and also you don't want to be stuck in the weeds doing minute things. So.

• 11:57Jocko Willink?

  If you're not capable, I think what might be holding this individual back, there's two things. Number one is I feel like I should take extreme ownership of everything. I feel like I should just do everything myself. That is not what extreme ownership is. Extreme ownership isn't doing everything yourself. And also what can come into play is your ego. Cause you don't want to ask people for help. And that's not a good sign. There's nothing wrong with asking people for help if you need it. In fact, that's the humble thing to do. Hey Echo, I don't know how to quite finish out this, you know, this thing of this project I'm working out. Can you give me a hand with this? I don't know how to work a video recorder. Can you show me how to do that? Right? Whatever. So, so there's no problem with that. You're allowed to ask. You can, you can say that immediately. In fact, your team should feel that you are counting on them and relying on them.

• 12:42Jocko Willink?

  They should know that. And then put your ego aside, ask for help, no problem. That doesn't mean you're giving away, that doesn't mean you're not taking ownership. That doesn't mean you're not applying discipline. It means you're working as a team together to accomplish mission. Again, if a, if a mission is so easy that you can accomplish it yourself, you don't need a team. Why do you have them? If you can do it all yourself, just by applying discipline, cool. You don't need anyone else. If you're, but your mission should be larger than one human being can accomplish. So that's why you have other people on board to help you out.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  No problem.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  You know, like, I always think when, when that

• 13:15Jocko Willink?

  I thought we made it out of that question. Go ahead.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  No, but you know, like, let's say it's like something that's just a pain in the ass. And you don't really need help, but you just don't want to do it by yourself.

• 13:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. Well, then, yeah, then you

• 13:30Speaker 01

  You gotta do that by yourself.

• 13:31Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  So that's kind of where this is coming from ultimately, because it's like

• 13:36Jocko Willink?

  I'm not saying that if you're the, if you're, if you have a position in a company where you shouldn't be doing some sort of task because it's not financially efficient to have, you know, a person that's making a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year doing a task that someone that's making ten dollars an hour should be doing. So, so you shouldn't do that. That's not what I'm advocating and a company won't, won't be doing well.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:06Jocko Willink?

  If you're paying people a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year that you could get someone to do for ten dollars an hour. I'm not saying that. So don't get me wrong.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:15Jocko Willink?

  But that's why we have a team, so that you can focus on going forward and whatever it is you need to be focused on. And somebody that's below you in the chain of command, that's a member of your team, that's getting paid ten dollars an hour can do some of the stuff that you need him to do.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And the, the question actually is, is really clear because it's because, quote unquote, because I recognize I'm not capable of pushing, you know? It's kind of like, it's obvious to you that you need help. It's not that you're, you know, raking leaves and I don't want to do this all by myself. So, hey, you know, you tell your brother, come help me. It's not that, it's different.

• 14:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And if you need to get the, the leaves raked and, and you need them done by Monday, so you can get them in the bags so that the dump truck can come and take the leaves away. And you can't physically get it done, then you, you say to your brother, hey, can you give me a hand? I need to get these done tonight before the sun goes down.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:10Jocko Willink?

  I'm not gonna be able to make it in time. Can you give me a hand?

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:13Jocko Willink?

  Your brother says absolutely.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah. Got your back. Next question.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  What's the best way to deal with feedback you don't agree with? My manager gives me feedback on my personality that I don't agree with. I'm only in the company five months and he doesn't know enough about me to make the comments he's making. I find myself wanting to contest with what he's saying, but I believe this will ultimately end poorly for me. It's frustrating for me to listen to feedback from him about my personality when my friends and family would disagree with him.

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay, again, this is one of those questions that I think people that listen to podcasts know what the answer is. What you do when someone's giving you feedback is you listen to it and you try and make adjustments. Get in their head and figure out where this is coming from. They're obviously saying this for some reason and maybe the reason is because they have a big ego or they don't understand people very well and that's fine. And if you know that, then you just learned something about them. But also you might not know yourself as well as you think you do. And obviously if you contest what someone's saying, you're gonna look like you can't take critiques. So you're right, that's not a good approach to take. Furthermore, what you're saying is that your friends and family wouldn't agree with this guy?

• 16:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, guess what? They're your friends and family, right? It's like the dude's mom that, you know, the dude's mom always thinks the dude's handsome, right? Dude's not handsome, but his mom thinks he's handsome. And you know, your friends and family think, oh, I can't believe they'd say that about you. Well, that's your friends and family. There's a reason why you have friends, because they like you. Whatever part of your personality is not cool, they're over it or they can deal with it. Well, this boss, the manager, can't deal with it. He doesn't know how to deal with it yet.

• 17:15Jocko Willink?

  Like I said, when someone gives you critique, you should actually listen. This is what people have such a hard time with.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:20Jocko Willink?

  And you should actually listen and say, okay, well, maybe I'm too aggressive, maybe I'm you know, too closed minded, whatever, whatever critique point you're getting. Listen to them. Maybe someone's like, hey, I don't think you take critique very well. And you're like, what are you talking about?

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:36Jocko Willink?

  Of course I take critique well. You don't know, you know, that's what, that's my point.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:39Jocko Willink?

  So. And the other thing, like I said, is in doing this, the manager is actually telling you something about their personality. And, and their views and their judgment. So learn from that. Learn what they're, they're teaching you about their personality, which is gonna help you better influence and manipulate and work with, work with that person in the future and perhaps help make them into a better leader and a better supporter of what it is that you're trying to do. So

• 18:14Jocko Willink?

  calm down, relax. One of the best things you can do when someone, when someone says to you, hey, I think you're screwing this up. It's like, oh, hold on, let me, let me, let me grab a notebook. I just want to take notes and make sure I, I understand where you're coming from. So I can, I can make some adjustments. I'm always looking to get better.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:28Jocko Willink?

  That might be a little extreme, but you know.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 18:32Jocko Willink?

  Hold on a second. Let me get my notebook.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:35Jocko Willink?

  So I can take notes because I want to get better. Okay. I overdid that just a little bit.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Say it in that tone. Yeah, it's, it's, but no, some people, some people, they'll take notes. You know how like some people, they like taking, taking notes. I kind of feel good.

• 18:47Jocko Willink?

  When I was, when I was running the West Coast SEAL training, the, the good officers, like there would be some officers, when, when I'd be putting out word to them, they'd be taking notes.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's good.

• 18:57Jocko Willink?

  And, and I was, you know, when I first saw it, it was kind of like, hmm, surprised me.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:01Jocko Willink?

  Um, okay, this guy's just straight up taking notes on what I'm telling you. He's a one-on-one conversation. He's, he's sitting there like taking notes.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotta remember that stuff. But, but if he said it with your tone, be like, hold on, oh, Jocko's gonna say something. Let me get out my notebook.

• 19:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, that's, yeah, that's sarcastic.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:17Jocko Willink?

  But there's also, not just being sarcastic, I was leaning towards more like the brown-noser.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Oh, that guy. Okay.

• 19:23Jocko Willink?

  Oh, oh, Echo, you're gonna give me some feedback? Hold on one second. I want to get my notes out so I can make sure I do exactly what you're telling me to do. Thanks, buddy.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. See, again, with the tone.

• 19:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  I think, you know, there's that middle, middle ground, I think.

• 19:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Who is it? Sarah Armstrong, I think, pointed out on Twitter, something about. Tone and body language in some psychological survey makes up more than half of what is actually being said.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I heard that too. And I was like, eh, that that sounds cool, but I mean, you know, maybe, maybe not, because if someone says something, it's pretty clear. But then I it's kind of stuck with me. And it's true. Like, I could literally say the same, like, I don't know, 10 words to you in all these different tones, and they would mean 10 different things.

• 20:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Like, you can, like, it's actually baffling and surprising how much we can actually communicate. Like, if I if I make a joke to you, like, something, you don't know my level of sarcasm. You don't know necessarily, you have to know the person, you know, like, so there's all these things that that have to be in place for you to effectively be communicated to. So, like, let's say you overhear a conversation in the next room. Like, you could easily miss the whole point of the conversation, even though you heard every word, because you don't know if they're joking, you don't know if they're serious, you don't know if one guy's mad, you know, if one guy's getting scolded, and they can take the same exact or they can say the same exact words, but they're just saying different things, coming from different places.

• 20:51Jocko Willink?

  That's where you end up a lot of communication problems with email.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:55Jocko Willink?

  Where someone emails a joke, they're joking about something, and then someone takes it seriously, and next thing you know, people are flying off the handle.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:03Jocko Willink?

  I always had that rule in my SEAL platoons in tasking, you weren't allowed to joke on the radio.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:08Jocko Willink?

  And the main reason for that rule is because you you don't want other people outside your organization to hear it and take it the wrong way, same thing. But it's the same thing with email, unless you know someone really, really well, really, really well, you better, it's better to keep the sarcastic comments and just be straightforward and and speak plainly when you're in email, when you're communicating with people, it's a lot, it's a lot easier.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  And then, even with that, see, bro, there's no escape from this, even with that, you could easily come off as like, too rigid, or maybe, or it's like, dang, is this guy, does this guy not like me? You know, like, it's your second email, and he's like-

• 21:44Jocko Willink?

  That's why communication is important. That's why learning how to to write well is important. That's why little words that you put in matter, in the in the phrases, in the sentences. They matter. They make a difference.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Thus, the invention of emojis.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  I've been using some emojis.

• 22:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, you're very into emojis.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  I am now, yeah.

• 22:08Jocko Willink?

  I sometimes I I I must say that I think you communicate very well with emojis. Because even though you don't sometimes use any words in a text to me, I fully understand what you mean.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:23Jocko Willink?

  By lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt, rainbow, rainbow, lightning bolt, thumbs up.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Shaka fire.

• 22:30Jocko Willink?

  Shaka fire.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Yep. Very clear, right?

• 22:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I, yeah, yeah, I agree.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:36Jocko Willink?

  I agree with that. Shaka fire. I forgot about fire. You do quite a bit of fire.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, the lightning bolt and fire I use and then the shaka for sure. And the rainbow, with you, I use a rainbow a lot. Cause I gotta lighten up the mood.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  But it helps, and it helps, it's weird. It seems like a child thing.

• 22:53Jocko Willink?

  I don't like emoticons. I don't like emojis.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you're kinda like that in real life, too.

• 22:58Jocko Willink?

  No, I know, but it's, it seems like to me, it's, I don't know, man.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like a kid, maybe your little daughter would do it or something.

• 23:06Jocko Willink?

  Oh, my daughter will send me eight hundred and seventy-five emojis from my wife's phone.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, all of them. See if she can fit them all in.

• 23:14Jocko Willink?

  And I send back, okay.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, see, but you're like that in real life, too, though. That's the thing. Like if you, like if you, you know that you're running the risk of sounding too like, you know, like stoic or whatever, you know, like if you, if you have to answer a question with yes, when in, whatever the question is, it's a yes or no question, and you answer yes affirmatively, right? You'll put yes, period. And that'll come off as like, oh, Chaka's like, I don't know, what up with this guy? Serious or something, you know? Instead of yes, exclamation point, yes, two exclamation points, lightning bolt, fire, rainbow, or something like that. That gives away a little bit more like, you know, yours is just like, yes. As if you're just looking someone in their eye.

• 23:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:56Jocko Willink?

  That's what I mean.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  I know, that's what I'm saying. You're really like that in real life.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Most of the time.

• 24:03Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 24:05Jocko Willink?

  Lightning bolt, fire.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, man, those emojis. Throw them in there. Don't overdo it.

• 24:09Jocko Willink?

  Double Shaka.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Double Shaka, yeah.

• 24:12Jocko Willink?

  What's the highest level of emoji approval you can send me?

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Three lightning bolts, three fires, three shakas, three rainbows. For sure. Three of everything. If you go four, it's like, that's too much. Like, you shouldn't do four. Four is dumb already, you know? Oh, plus, depends on what I say, though. So like, if there's, if it's a word, the vowel in the word, they'll be like, that, that can be infinite.

• 24:44Jocko Willink?

  What do you mean?

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Like, if I put, I don't know, you know how like, you'll tell me something exciting, and I'll put, I don't know, I'll put dang, instead of D A N G, I'll put D, lowercase a, depending on the level of excitement, a, a, a, a, a, a, a. That can go infinitely, by the way. That can span twenty text messages even. Over twenty days, and that's how infinite it can be. Then the first half of the a's are lowercase, the second half of the a's are uppercase, the N, maybe ten N's, three G's, all capital, then, you know, then, so it depends. It just depends. It just depends. But yes.

• 25:19Jocko Willink?

  Well, like I said, I think you communicate well.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  But, yeah, that's what I'm saying. On a, on a serious note, in regards to communication, that is effective. You know what I mean? You can sense my level of excitement as opposed to cool, period.

• 25:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, no. No, you're, you're, you were, you're better with hieroglyphics.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's funny.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Amen. It's life. Anyway, next question. If you, if we're ready.

• 25:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, man, sorry.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  No, no, all good.

• 25:58Jocko Willink?

  It puts me in a good mood, I guess, the rainbow emojis.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  It does, man. Shits light on things. It's all good. Dearest Jocko, speaking of lighthearted, uh, nice emotions, dearest Jocko.

• 26:14Jocko Willink?

  You just skipped number four.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Okay, my bad, my bad, my bad. Okay. Jocko, what is the difference between extreme ownership versus the easy button? Can you elaborate? I just need a little more clarification to connect the dots in my situation.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  Okay, again, so as a leader, yes, of course, you are supposed to take ownership of everything, extreme ownership of everything. That's what we talk about all the time. But does this mean that you say, "I will do this, and I will do that, and I will do the other thing, and I will do everything that the team is supposed to be doing"? No, that's not what I'm talking about. Now, ownership does mean that you get things done. You are responsible for making sure things get done. That's what ownership is. If our team is in charge of something, if our team is in charge of a project, and we don't get it done, it's my fault. It's not anybody else's fault. So that's what it is. It means you take responsibility when things go wrong.

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  It means you take responsibility for problems and you get them fixed. That's definitely ownership. Now, the easy button, and when I talk about the easy button in a negative way, because that's what I'm doing here, it's when your subordinates come to you and say,

• 27:28Jocko Willink?

  "How should I do this?", or "What's the best way to execute this?", or "Can you, can you tell me a good plan on how we should make this happen?", or even, "Hey, there's bad news. Can you come tell my people?", because I don't really want to do it. Now, if you say yes to those types of things on a regular basis, then what you're doing is you're actually stunting the growth of your subordinate leader. Because instead, when you come to me and you say, "Hey, Jocko, we got this mission. We got a plan. How do you think we should do it?". If I say, "Okay, we should come in from the north. You should set up an overwatch position here. You should move through the target from this direction", you didn't learn anything. You just took what I told you. Instead, I say, "Well, go come up with your best plan and come back to me and brief me on it."

• 28:11Jocko Willink?

  And so now, you might be kind of bummed out because you didn't want to have to do this extra work, but now you got to go do a little extra work, but now you're learning. And in two or three times, you're not even going to come to ask me anymore. You're going to come with a plan, and because we already did a cycle, cycle after cycle of you saying, "Hey, here's my plan", and me saying, "Hey, make this adjustment", and you come back next time, you say, "Here's my plan. I said, make this little adjustment", and eventually, you know to make those adjustments on your own, and now you can do it by yourself. And that's what we want. I don't want to stunt the growth of my subordinate leader, so I don't want to be an easy button.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  So you're providing the easy button, like that's what they're talking about when they say easy button.

• 28:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  You don't want to be the easy button.

• 28:50Jocko Willink?

  You don't want to be the easy button for everybody else. And also, no one's going to be able to take your job from you, which is actually what you want. You want, I want to make every one of my subordinates so good that they can take my job from me. That means I can step up and look forward and look out and they can do a better job of handling what they've got to handle. And eventually, when it's my time to get promoted, I got people to take my place and we're all good. Um, of course, that doesn't mean leave them blind or let them fail. Don't do that. Give, you want to give them rope?

• 29:20Jocko Willink?

  But you don't give them enough rope to hang themselves. You give them enough rope that they maybe get a little knot in the rope and it gets a little bit sloppy. And you, and then you go over to me and say, there's a knot here. Let me help you get that untied. And now you give them the rope again. So you don't, you know, in, in a, in the military, you, you don't let someone go to a mission that's real, where someone's going to get hurt, killed or a mission failure because you wanted to not be the easy button. No, you don't do that. In the civilian sector, you don't let someone lose a big client or lose a bunch of money or make a mistake that costs a bunch of capital because you didn't want to be the easy button. No, no, I'm, now, might you let someone make a little mistake? Sure. Little mistake that costs them a little bit of money? Sure. So they learn a lesson? Sure. But you don't let them fall on your face. You don't let them hang, hang themselves.

• 30:06Jocko Willink?

  So that's that.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Next question. Dearest Jocko, a question for you and the podcast. Our fire department promotion process has role-playing scenarios. In those role-playing scenarios, I lose points because I'm not outwardly passionate, quote unquote, enough.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  I would have to fake it to succeed and I'm not a fake person. Is this worth it to fake it when seeking promotion? It's not like I'm going to fake it once I attain the promotion.

• 30:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay. This is a, this is a very cool question. I like this question a lot. And actually, on this guy sent me this question on Facebook, I responded.

• 30:49Jocko Willink?

  Very quickly and simply. My response was, play the game.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so fake it.

• 30:55Jocko Willink?

  Play the game.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:57Jocko Willink?

  And, and you know what he wrote back? Got it.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:00Jocko Willink?

  So, good for him.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:01Jocko Willink?

  Because what everybody, I think, thinks I'm gonna say is like, no, you be true to yourself. No, you don't play the game. You're not gonna get up there and act all passionate about stuff. You're you, you're hardcore, no.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:13Jocko Willink?

  Play the game. Now, you, you, cuz what you're doing, you play the game, you, you wanna do a good job and you're doing your job. And doing your job, doing any job, requires some level of faking it.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:26Jocko Willink?

  Now, does this mean that you're a fake person? No, it means that you're trying to do a good job. Think if every time that your boss came in with a dumb idea and you, your reaction was to say, that's a dumb idea.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:41Jocko Willink?

  Is that gonna get you anywhere? Or every time a customer had an idiot, idiotic complaint about something, you were like, hey, you're an idiot.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:50Jocko Willink?

  Or every time your wife said, uh, you know, is this chicken dry? And you said it's drier than a piece of cardboard in the Sahara Desert. I- i- is that, i- is that, you know, would you, would you benefit from that? How would that work out? The answer is, you would, he would not work out well in any of those cases. You have to play the game.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:15Jocko Willink?

  You have to play the game and I know, I know that that's hard and I'll, I'll tell you what I did to get myself over playing the game. I, I turned it into a game in my head. I was like, I'm, I'm gonna build a relationship with this boss that I don't like. I'm gonna do it.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:37Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna build the best rela- that's my game. I'm gonna, I'm gonna become this guy's bro, right? When I was at officer candidate school, you gotta do the most ridiculous rules. They have these, these rules that you've gotta follow that were really annoying. And you know what I did? I, I executed the rules harder and more stringently than, than anybody thought was even remotely necessary.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:04Jocko Willink?

  And had fun with it. I played that game, I-

• 33:09Jocko Willink?

  You know, if I've got a peer that maybe I'm competing with, or there's some tension, I'm gonna support them. I'm gonna play the game. That's what I'm saying. You gotta play the game. Now, does this make me a bad person or a fake person? No. Why? Because you're doing this. The reason you're playing the game, the reason you're acting this way, is for benevolent reasons, right? This, this guy at the fire department, he, he's not trying to get promoted so that he can usurp the powers and, and take over. No. He's trying to get into a position where he can better lead and serve and, and step up and raise young leaders underneath him. That, that's what you're trying to do. You're not trying to sneak into a position you don't deserve and you're not trying to build

• 33:53Jocko Willink?

  relationships so you can take advantage of people for your own benefit. That, that would be a fake person.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  In my opinion. You're trying to move, but if you're trying to move up in rank so you can do better and you can take care of the troops and you can increase readiness, there's nothing wrong with that. And if you don't play the game to, at some level, you, you're not gonna get promoted. And guess what? Then people that played the game, that might be less, less qualified to do that job, they're gonna get the job. Because you wouldn't play the game. You're too stubborn. Your ego is too big. So you gotta put that aside. And, and I'll tell you something else. Learn from what you're being told. If, if you're showing no passion, if you're showing like zero emotion, that's bad.

• 34:44Jocko Willink?

  People will not connect with you. And if they don't connect with you, they don't follow you. If they don't connect with you, you're not building relationships with people. If you don't have relationships with people, you don't have a good team. So, show a little bit of passion. Sometimes you gotta fake it. That's fine. You're just a really unpassionate person? Cool. Show a little bit of passion. Fake it a little bit. Learn it a little bit. Cause it's actually gonna be beneficial. I would love for you to fake it for a little while until you, you start caring. What, like, what are you not passionate about? Are you not passionate about the job? Are you not passionate about you're a firefighter about saving people's lives? Are you not passionate about having a squared away department? You of course you're passionate about that stuff.

• 35:29Jocko Willink?

  Otherwise you wouldn't be. You wouldn't be sending me a message saying, hey, how do I get advanced? How do I do? How do I do better?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:35Jocko Willink?

  You are passionate about it. And that's fine. It's good. Um. I say it all the time, you know, if you don't have any emotions, you're a robot and robots. People don't follow robots.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:45Jocko Willink?

  So sometimes you gotta show a little bit of that emotion and passion to connect with people. That's okay.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:52Jocko Willink?

  Don't be scared, homie.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't be scared, homie. Yeah, cuz that's really the thing, right? Is showing it. Of course you're passionate about, but showing it cuz different people, they something. Brian, I dig it. I don't wanna always be like showing how fired up I am all the time or whatever in whatever scenario, whatever. But you're right, that does help.

• 36:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Like when you can tell someone's excited about it.

• 36:13Jocko Willink?

  It's and there's a there's a dichotomy here.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:16Jocko Willink?

  Because there's some people that will show too much emotions.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:19Jocko Willink?

  And there's some people that will not show enough. So you wanna be somewhere balanced in the middle.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's true. And I dig it too, when cuz it does feel like faking it. Cuz like in in football, the tradition is like to be fired up on the sidelines. Let's go, let's go, you know, like that kind of thing. But probably sometimes you don't have the energy for that. Sometimes you're kind of just nervous and you wanna focus on what you gotta do or whatever, you know? But it's kind of part of the game, you know? And and it does help the people around you too. Like it's like, okay, he's fired up. Okay, maybe I'm not fired up now, but he's kind of getting me fired up, you know? And it kind of like helps the team.

• 36:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  But yeah, sometimes it doesn't feel that comfortable to do. Express outwardly, you know? How passionate, but it helps. Plus it's fake like faking it. That's like a framing thing too, you know, like you frame it like you're faking it versus how you said you're playing the game.

• 37:08Jocko Willink?

  Right. You're playing the game because you wanna do a better job. You wanna get promoted. You wanna you wanna get promoted for the right reasons.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:14Jocko Willink?

  There's nothing wrong with that.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's yeah, that's good, I think. If you can kind of bend and stretch yourself in an uncomfortable way for the benefit, you know?

• 37:22Jocko Willink?

  You know, I think where people, I think that term of faking it. No one wants to be a fake person, right?

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Right, yes.

• 37:29Jocko Willink?

  Which which is which is why you're correct in that the way that's framed.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:34Jocko Willink?

  Is I'm being a fake person.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:37Jocko Willink?

  And no one wants to be a fake person.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:40Jocko Willink?

  At the same time. You have to grow and you have to adjust and if you're gonna be in a leadership position, you're gonna do things that you don't, that you wouldn't have. Man, I do that all the time.

• 37:58Jocko Willink?

  I mean, when I was in the military, you know, I worked with people that I, you know, I've said this before. I go, I work with people both below me in the chain of command and up above me in the chain of command that I despised. They never knew it. They don't know who they are right now.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 38:14Jocko Willink?

  But, you know.

• 38:17Jocko Willink?

  Does that make me a fake person? No. Makes me a professional. Makes me a professional at doing my job. Cause I wasn't gonna get let some little personal emotion of mine or some, oh, that guy's does this and I don't like that. So I'm not gonna like him and now we have an adversary relationship and now I got a problem. No, I'm playing the game. Play the game.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  So where's the line? What is a fake person genuinely?

• 38:41Jocko Willink?

  Well, I was gonna ask you, ask me what the line is. The line is if you go against what your principles are. You know, so if you've got fundamental principles that they say, oh, if you want this job, what we need you to do is fill out a report about Billy saying that he did something wrong that you know he didn't do wrong. Right? And you go, no, I'm not gonna do that. That, that, that's, well, that's bad, right? That's now, now you're not just playing the game. Now you're going against your principles of being an honest person about what's happening.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's really what it is, right? Like the honesty. When you're a fake person. So like if someone's like, oh, I'm faking it or I'm being a fake person, how you said, a fake person. Like turning on some passion, some manufactured passion for the sake of the team and stuff like that. That doesn't feel like you're a fake person. Fake person is kinda like you'll sit like some, I don't know. For example, someone's in the room and you're like, hey, you're great. That shirt looks great and you're doing a great job. They leave and be like, that guy sucks so bad.

• 39:39Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you the difference. The reason that someone, the reason that you would consider someone and be angry that someone's a fake person is when they are doing it because they're doing it for personal benefit. They're, they're saying that like if, if, if, if you were my boss and I come in and I say, hey, Echo, I really like your new haircut. Looks great. I don't really think that. I think your haircut looks dumb, but I'm gonna say that anyways. And everyone knows that all I wanna do is get that next promotion.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:07Jocko Willink?

  That's being fake.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 40:09Jocko Willink?

  That's being fake. But if if I'm saying, well, because what am I really doing? What I'm doing is I'm I'm I'm making an adaptation. I'm growing. I'm I'm doing something that I'm uncomfortable with because I know it's going to make me a better leader.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 40:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's what I should be doing is trying to become a better leader.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:28Jocko Willink?

  Now, again, if the if if in this whatever organization, what you have to do is is do something that you don't agree with. And it's it's the wrong thing to do. And you do it anyways, well, then then that's that's that's that's almost a totally different thing. There's that. Then there's, hey, I'm gonna kiss ass.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:51Jocko Willink?

  So that I get promoted. It's all about me.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 40:54Jocko Willink?

  And and that's probably the what we think of the definition of a fake person.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. These guys are crazy. Next question. I saw a weakness in you on your latest podcast. You seem to overlook the fact that some infant children were raised in undisciplined environments with undisciplined parents. They grow up having modeled these undisciplined examples. I hate the fact that I have gross, undisciplined behavior. Solving this is a major priority in my life. You have zero idea of what it of what this experience is like for me. You seem blind to this struggle like a father who would ignore their child's struggle and offer only the words, man up.

• 41:44Jocko Willink?

  So this is a good question, and I I see where this guy's coming from for sure. And I know that it can be very, very frustrating to try and become disciplined. And I apologize that I haven't talked about the fact of of what to do if you come from an undisciplined family or you have undisciplined parents. I haven't really talked about what to do in that situation, but there's a reason that I haven't talked about that before, and that is because you don't get discipline from your parents.

• 42:23Jocko Willink?

  You don't get discipline from your parents, from your grandparents, from your older brothers and sisters. You don't get discipline from an external source.

• 42:35Jocko Willink?

  You have to get it from you. That's what self-discipline is. You get it from yourself. You get it from you.

• 42:42Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 42:44Jocko Willink?

  There's people from every possible background. From no parents, to crazy parents, to, you know, drug-addicted parents, to super squared-away parents. And everywhere in between on that spectrum that are completely disciplined people. More disciplined than anyone I know.

• 43:10Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't come from your parents. You don't inherit it. And there's another piece here.

• 43:18Jocko Willink?

  It's called ownership, right? It's called ownership. And if you're, if you want to blame other people for the problem, and I say this all the time, if you don't take ownership of the problem, the problem's not gonna get solved. So if you blame your parents for not having raised you in a disciplined environment, you're not gonna solve that problem. You're looking at your parents saying, "If you would've done a better job being more disciplined for me, I would be more disciplined now." So that means, that means you can't do anything. The fact of the matter is, it's wrong. You actually can do something. And it doesn't matter what, how your parents raised you and brought you up. You can have the discipline you need to decide to do it.

• 44:00Jocko Willink?

  So... As long as you're blaming other people. I mean, if you blame me for not discussing it, you blame me for having zero idea what that experience is like. You blame your parents for not raising you this way. As long as you're blaming other people, as long as you're counting on other people to give you discipline, as long as you do that, you will not have it. So... Again, I... I'm sorry, I should have made that, I should make that more clearly, and I'm trying to make it more clearly now, and like my parents. My parents are are good people. They had successful careers as as educators in public schools. And my mom eventually became, uh, went into school administration. My dad taught

• 44:41Jocko Willink?

  in high school for thirty something years, and they were good, hardworking people. And, uh, but I'll tell you, they were no they were no extraordinary preachers of discipline. And I'll tell you, I, I, in fact, I I never remember either one of them ever using the term or referring to discipline in any way. Um, you know, and actually, both my parents worked. They both worked a lot. My dad was coaching sports and were doing after school stuff. My mom, same thing. Like, we were on our own a bunch. My parents were gone in the morning. We got ourselves to school. When we got home in the afternoon, they weren't home.

• 45:21Jocko Willink?

  You know, so it wasn't like they were setting up this rigid disciplined manner for me, right? And, um, and you can see this with families, many, many different families. There's families that have kids that the the parents are very disciplined and the kids are wild. And out of control, sometimes they're problematically so, right? Kids that come from really good families, but they get addicted to drugs. Lack of discipline. Kids that come from really good families, but they they spin out of control and and go in the wrong direction. And there's also the opposite, which is, hey, the parents weren't around, or the parents were abusive, or the parents were drug addicts, and and all the time, the kid, the kid comes out of that and is squared away, is awesome.

• 46:05Jocko Willink?

  And we saw that all the time in the SEAL teams, and I've said that before on this program. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where your background is. It's what you decide to do.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:17Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you another thing, it's not even from the military, like the military requires discipline, obviously, but there's plenty of people in the military that don't have it, right? And, and many poor, many people lose their discipline when they leave the military because it's not being imposed on them anymore. So, I mean, just go look around. I mean, being in the military does not make you a disciplined person. Being from a disciplined family does not make you a disciplined person. Being in a disciplined group does not make you a disciplined person. What makes you a disciplined person is choosing to be disciplined.

• 46:53Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 46:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I, I, and, and also as far as telling people to man up, um, which, you know, when someone says, how do I get up early every day? I say, get up early every day. How do I stop eating sugar? Stop eating sugar. If that's the definition of man up, but obviously it's not just men that need discipline in their life. I don't think I use that term, but what I do tell people is to get after it. That's what I tell people, to get after it. I tell people to do the things that they know they're supposed to do. Right? There's things that you know you're supposed to do as a human being. Things that you know are going to improve your life. Do those things. There's things that you know are going to make you

• 47:37Jocko Willink?

  a worse person and make your life worse. Don't do those things. Don't do the things that are making you weaker. Start doing the things that are going to make you stronger and smarter and faster and healthier and going to make you a better human being. And I'll say the same thing to this guy. You want to be more disciplined? Get after it. That's it, man. Get up early. Do some kind of workout. Eat good foods. Clean your room. Make a list of things that you're supposed to do in your life and then wake up in the morning and do those things that you put on the list. That's what discipline is.

• 48:15Jocko Willink?

  And no, it is not easy. But you're not gonna get it from anyone else but you. And it's worth it. And it is the thing that is going to bring you freedom.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  That's the key word right there when you said it's worth it. You know what I think, this is what I think. I think like in an environment as like how he put it. An undisciplined environment, right, or something like that? Where he grew up in an undisciplined environment. I don't, obviously, that's a very vague.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Expression, right?

• 48:50Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Undisciplined environment.

• 48:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that could mean, that could mean a lot of.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of different things. So, a lot of times like when you're brought up in a certain environment, basically, you're kinda taught or, or not taught. Like, like the value of certain things. So if you use like, I don't know, working out or whatever, right? So. I'm gonna use myself as, as an example. My dad was an athlete.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  You know. Not a superior athlete, but he was, you know, he, he knew like working out was a part of life and stuff like that. And, you know, in elementary school, we're doing sports and stuff like that, you know? Some people, they don't do that at all. So, and when they grow up into adulthood, the, some people straight up have never worked out before. Never been in the gym and, you know. So growing up, they, they were never taught the value of. What working out does for you. They're never taught, so they can't appreciate it, they just simply don't know the value. Sure, they see people with, you know, you know, they're in shape or they can do these things and they're very functional, whatever. They see that, of course, but they don't have that value, they don't feel that value. They, they just never learned it.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  So it, it can come off as like this thing for other people, you know? Like, oh, that's what other people do kinda thing. So they don't understand the value. So, back to the point. In their mind, this weird, the connection is not made that it's worth it. Because they don't know the value of it, really. But if you do know the value of it, and then you can decide, okay, is this worth it? Is it worth it to wake up every day and, and quote unquote, get after it for this particular goal? Or this particular set of goals? So that's what it is. And I think, sure, the undisciplined environment can maybe provide that, but I think you're right. I think that once you're like, oh yeah, that's worth it. You know how people, they'll find reasons when it's worth it, even though they've never experienced, like. You know, like a person who has a heart attack or something is like, and they have kids,

• 50:41Speaker 01

  young kids or something, they have a heart attack, maybe never worked out ever in their life. They have a heart attack, they almost died, they're like, guess what? I'm working out every single day, I'm a vegetarian now. You know, like doing major, major changes that they've never even thought about making, and they'll do it because they decided it's worth it. And they'll be disciplined, they'll find that discipline real quick, no matter how they're trained. As, you know, their environment when they're.

• 51:03Jocko Willink?

  Cause now they see that it's gonna be worth it.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 51:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  And if, if it's not worth it to you, and that, I think, is what you develop. The value of working out, the value of.

• 51:14Jocko Willink?

  But you develop, you can develop that from anywhere.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  That's what I'm, that's, essentially, that's part of the.

• 51:19Jocko Willink?

  Necessarily develop that from any, any, you can develop that from, from anywhere.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you can get it from parents, you can get it from, yeah, exactly right, exactly right. But the discipline itself, just like I said, that's gonna come from you. Your parents can teach it, but guess who has to, it's still you, it's still you. And you can go to the military to specifically learn discipline. When you leave.

• 51:41Jocko Willink?

  It's on you.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Who's, yeah, exactly right. And just like I said, like, yeah, I know people who are done with the military and are glad they're done with that.

• 51:48Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  They're glad with this waking up early, they're glad with.

• 51:51Jocko Willink?

  They fast forward six months, they're out of shape, they're not doing anything productive. It's, it's horrible to see. But it happens, happens with the military, it happens with anything. It happens when kids get out of high school sports.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:04Jocko Willink?

  And all of a sudden, they don't, I don't have to do that anymore.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  I don't have to listen to coach.

• 52:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Crazy talk.

• 52:11Jocko Willink?

  Don't listen to coach, listen to yourself.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yourself, yeah. Determine whether or not it's worth it.

• 52:17Jocko Willink?

  And I'm telling you, you don't need to determine, I'm telling you it's worth it.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:21Jocko Willink?

  I'm telling you it is worth it, and you know what? You actually know it's worth it, that's why you're asking this question. You know it's worth it, you know it's worth it to have discipline, but you think there's an easier way. You think that it's something that people have, you think that when Jocko's alarm clock goes off, it's like, oh, just like my father taught me, I rise and I shine, you know, like, no. I, I, it's like, the pillow feels soft and comfortable.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:44Jocko Willink?

  And the alarm clock is banging on my head and I don't like it. But you know what? I know it's worth it to get up and get after it, I know it's worth it, and you know it's worth it.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Here's the thing, though.

• 52:52Jocko Willink?

  We all know it's worth it.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Here's, in, in a way, you're right, but like, really, though, really? I'm gonna be open and honest with you. I don't think that the people know it's worth it. I think they know it's worth it like the kind on paper. You know, if they have a multiple choice question, is it worth it? Yes or no, they'll be like, yes. Obviously, I know working out is worth it. But here's the thing, I don't, if you don't know, if you don't like, like having good credit, for example. So I never got taught like, why? Really, my mom said, yeah, you should have good credit. That's it. That's the limit to my education on credit, right? So of course I blow it because I get, you know, I fall for literally all the tricks. It's self inflicted and otherwise. Credit gets jammed up. So, so I don't know. I don't know the value.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  I don't know, I've never experienced the benefits of having good cred. I don't know the value of good credit. So it really didn't mean much to me, really. My credit was like junk and I didn't care until I got denied for something, then I cared, you know? But just like if you're never into working out until you're in a specific situation where it shows.

• 53:55Jocko Willink?

  But, but, but like this guy that's asking this question, and I'm glad he's asking the question. I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm trying, I'm not trying to come off all hard. Um, but he realizes, he realizes the value of discipline because he's saying that he wants it, right? He knows that it's gonna make his life better.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:13Jocko Willink?

  And, and that's why I think he, he's gotten jammed up in whatever way. We don't know because I don't know him. Maybe he's gotten unhealthy, maybe he's, you know, who knows? Maybe he's gotten his finances jammed up. Whatever, whatever the case may be, he knows that discipline is better for them, him. He knows that, he does know. This isn't a guy that doesn't know yet because sure, there's people that don't, you know? When you're 16 years old, you don't know the value of discipline. You don't know that the what you're, the way you're acting right now is gonna affect you in five years. You don't know that you can set yourself, your whole life up to be pretty awesome.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:45Jocko Willink?

  You don't know that yet. You're just like worried about where you're going on a Friday night, right?

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:51Jocko Willink?

  So this guy knows and he wants it.

• 54:55Jocko Willink?

  And he's looking for where he can find it. And where he can find it is in the mirror.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:03Jocko Willink?

  That's where it is.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:04Jocko Willink?

  So do it, brother. Good luck. Get on the path and stay on the path.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's gonna be beneficial when you do the I'm harshly maintaining that like not knowing the value is a big, is a big thing. It's kinda like, okay, so back to my credit thing. There is a point at the end where, okay, so, um, you know, like, I don't know, 10 years ago, whatever, I repaired my credit. My credit was repaired. I went through, it was painstaking, not fun stuff.

• 55:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  But I did it, got my credit repaired, and now I know the value because as an adult, I'm functioning. It's useful now, you know? So now I know the value of having good credit because I've been through all the things that having good credit brings you through, you know? Now I'm thinking, I'll never go back to bad credit.

• 55:51Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Never. It's worth it every single day.

• 55:53Jocko Willink?

  I'm telling you, that I agree with what you're saying.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:56Jocko Willink?

  I agree with what you're saying. I'm saying that this guy knows the value and that's why he wants it.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:01Jocko Willink?

  It's like when you realize that you got denied for something, and you were like, oh, credit has value. I understand that now.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:09Jocko Willink?

  Something happened in his life where he said, discipline has value. I know that now.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:13Jocko Willink?

  But you did credit repair. And, and what you said was, okay, I need to go out and repair my credit. You didn't say, hey, you know what? My mom didn't tell me about bad credit, and now I have bad credit.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:23Jocko Willink?

  So now, now what am I supposed to do? You know who repaired your credit? Who repaired your credit?

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Well, it was a combination of my wife and I, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:31Jocko Willink?

  But who repaired your credit?

• 56:32Speaker 01

  We did it. Yeah, we did that stuff.

• 56:33Jocko Willink?

  You took responsibility for it and said, okay, I'm gonna get my credit. You talked to your wife, because she's smarter than you. And she was like, hey, I will, I will help this. But it was you that said, okay, I gotta get this fixed. And you got help. But you knew to reach out for help. But you're the one that ultimately is responsible for it.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're right about that. Like, I didn't, like, I didn't blame my parents and then continue having bad credit, you know?

• 56:57Jocko Willink?

  Right, right. You said, no, I gotta get, this, this thing has, credit has value. I need to fix it.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:05Jocko Willink?

  And you fixed it.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, regardless of where it came from.

• 57:07Jocko Willink?

  Regardless.

• 57:10Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, oh, you don't know how to work out? Cool, then you go hire a personal trainer because you know it's gonna, it's the right thing to do. You know what I mean? Oh, you don't know how to repair your finances? Cool, go get a counselor that's gonna help you repair your finances. Oh, you're addicted to drugs or alcohol? Okay, I'm gonna go find a counselor or join a group so I can get through that thing. No one's gonna hold your hand and bring you into any of those situations. You've got to do it yourself. You've got to have the discipline to make it happen.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Number seven. Good morning.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Did you find that people in the military mock those that emphasize the importance of good leadership? Who take leading and our responsibilities seriously? What does that mean mocking like?

• 58:01Jocko Willink?

  Make fun of you.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, like what, people in the military making?

• 58:04Jocko Willink?

  Making fun of you because you take leadership super seriously.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  This white scout.

• 58:11Jocko Willink?

  This is an interesting question. So, it makes me a little bit nervous because my suspicion is that this individual might be going about being a good leader the wrong way. And if you go about it the wrong way, people can take offense to it. If you're the guy that goes around telling everyone that you are a leader and you're trying to be a great leader, people will take offense to that. Like, you can't make that part of your thing, right? People that talk about the importance of good leadership are, they come across as implying that they are a good leader. And, and that can be offensive, especially if you aren't quite as good of a leader as you think you are.

• 58:54Jocko Willink?

  You run around like, you don't understand how important leadership is.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:58Jocko Willink?

  Like, just think about that statement right there. You don't understand the importance of leadership, Echo? All of a sudden, I'm basically telling you like, I'm a good leader and you're not.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 59:05Jocko Willink?

  When the reality is just the way I'm talking proves that I'm not a good leader.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:08Jocko Willink?

  Because I'm talking down to you.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:10Jocko Willink?

  So, we have a problem right there. And also, if, if you take leading and our leading responsibilities seriously, what does that actually mean?

• 59:24Jocko Willink?

  Does that mean that you can't have any fun with your team?

• 59:28Jocko Willink?

  Does that mean you can't laugh at yourself when you've made a mistake? Does that mean that you are trying so hard to give off the impression that you are a great leader? That it appears to everyone else that you aren't really who you act like? And that your character is disingenuous?

• 59:49Jocko Willink?

  Right? If I'm constantly trying to put up this front that I'm the great leader, everyone starts looking at me thinking, "That guy's not even... that's not the real him." "He's just trying to walk around like a..."

• 1:00:02Jocko Willink?

  "He's not true." Right? You think about it, you're trying to build trust and as a leader, we are trying to build trust. We talked, Dick Winters talking about honesty being the most, one of the most important traits of a leader. But if we're putting up a facade in how we act, that does not come across as honest. And that doesn't build trust. In fact, it builds the opposite.

• 1:00:23Jocko Willink?

  And...

• 1:00:26Jocko Willink?

  Also, if you have to put up a leadership front...

• 1:00:33Jocko Willink?

  If you have to put up a leadership front, in other words, if sometimes you have to act a certain way, fake it, going back to something earlier. If you have to act and fake like a leader, that means you might be insecure about your leadership capability and you will come across as insecure and people can sense that insecurity. So that can be very problematic. Also, if you're so into being a good leader,

• 1:01:02Jocko Willink?

  that probably means that you have issues giving up the reins.

• 1:01:08Jocko Willink?

  That means that you are probably micromanaging. Because you want to be a leader, you want to prove to everyone that you're a good leader. And so you start micromanaging. And no one wants to follow a micromanager. They don't want to do that.

• 1:01:23Jocko Willink?

  And if you add all these things together, what, what, what do people end up doing?

• 1:01:32Jocko Willink?

  They end up mocking you.

• 1:01:35Jocko Willink?

  They end up mocking the things that you think are important, like leadership itself. They start to make fun of it.

• 1:01:45Jocko Willink?

  It's, ah, man, the, it's like the needle, I think his name is Needle Meyer in Animal House. Is, is, is that the right name?

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  I don't know, I, I kinda.

• 1:01:55Jocko Willink?

  I'm doing a movie reference and you're not in with me, dude, this is messed up.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  All I can give you is John Belushi, that's all I know.

• 1:02:01Jocko Willink?

  So there's, it's like the leader, the, the ROTC guy.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Jocko Willink?

  He's the guy that's like Mr. Leader.

• 1:02:08Jocko Willink?

  And everyone makes fun of him.

• 1:02:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:11Jocko Willink?

  He's trying to be a great leader, he's trying to be the authoritative figure, everyone is making fun of him. So you have to be careful. In this case, I would recommend you move to the center a little bit more, meaning that on the one hand, you have a leader that isn't building relationship, isn't building trust, expects people to do as they are told and, and treat, treat that leader with respect, even though they haven't earned it.

• 1:02:35Jocko Willink?

  That's not a good leader. On the other hand, you have leaders that are too close with the troops, has very personal relationships, too personal relationships with the team and has lost any semblance of authority over the team. So there's your two extremes. You want to be balanced in the middle. You want to build relationships with your people. You want to build your team up. And also forcing leadership onto people does not work anymore than forcing a religion, or a diet, or a workout, or a political belief, belief system.

• 1:03:09Jocko Willink?

  And can you make someone, from a, from a leadership perspective, if you have authority over other people, can you make someone bow down to your program mechanically for a little while?

• 1:03:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you can. You can. But if it's not from them, if they're not part of it willfully, it's not gonna work over time. So, you know, don't beat people up verbally with your leadership lessons.

• 1:03:42Jocko Willink?

  Don't make it your external religion that you are forcing on people. Internally, yes, of course. Obviously, my, I always thought about leadership. I always thought about leadership, but I wasn't barking it and I don't even think, I don't even think.

• 1:04:05Jocko Willink?

  Like my, the best, the people that taught me the most about leadership, they never said a word to me about leadership. Right? And I'm not saying that that's the best course of action because, because sometimes it is good to, you know, pull someone aside and say, hey, this is the way you're acting right now in front of your troops and that that's not gonna be effective. Sometimes that is good, especially once you've built the relationship. Cause if I don't have a relationship with you, Echo, and I say, hey, I need to talk to you. Hey, the way you're treating your guys right now isn't gonna go over very well with them. What's your reaction gonna be? You're gonna be pissed. You're gonna think, oh, you don't know my guys. I know them better than you. We're gonna have a problem. I accomplished nothing. My coaching and mentoring of you was horrible because we didn't have a relationship. So, so you're not listening.

• 1:04:48Jocko Willink?

  And obviously, of course, when I start coaching and mentoring, that implies that I'm the greatest leader of all time. That's my, that's my implied statement. You suck, I'm great, which people reject that as well. Especially when you're not that great of a leader in the first place.

• 1:05:03Jocko Willink?

  So, don't talk about it so much. Just lead, be a good leader, open up discussions.

• 1:05:11Jocko Willink?

  Take a wrap off. Come from the flank. Instead of going straight on. Maneuver tactically and tactfully get into their heads. And make better leaders. By actually leading.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Yes, kind of like that, you know, lead by example kind of thing. It kind of makes you like the question, kind of how you said in the beginning. It makes you wonder. He says, the question is, do you find that people in the military mock those that emphasize the importance of good leadership? You kind of think to yourself, I wonder how this person is emphasizing the importance of good. Is he the guy at the party who, you know? People are talking about, I don't know, the food or something, then he just busts out leadership stuff. You know, that guy, you know? Who's like everything on it, like the ROTC guy.

• 1:06:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like the ROTC guy Needle Meyer.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Just everything. He's just pushing it everything, you know? Leadership is everything, leadership is everything. Bro, we weren't even talking about that. Leadership is everything kind of thing.

• 1:06:12Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, this is coming from a person, me, that I literally talk about leadership all the time.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  That's how you actually think.

• 1:06:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I actually think that way. And I, I get up on stage and in companies and in front of military members and police officers. And I talk about leadership. That's what I talk about all the time.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:30Jocko Willink?

  And that's what, you know what's interesting? That's what makes about face. By Colonel David Hackworth. One of the best things about that book is it's not a leadership book. He doesn't, he doesn't talk. He barely talks about. He barely says a straightforward sentence, that this is how you lead. It's all from the flank. And that's why it gets you so well. Because it's from the flank.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:55Jocko Willink?

  It's not a book about leadership, doesn't even say like, you know? How many books get published all the time? You know, this is a leadership book. I wrote a book with Leif. How to lead and win.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:08Jocko Willink?

  Hackworth did it better. Hackworth's like, oh, this is about war. Read it.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, in a way, I dig what you're saying, but obviously that's your job.

• 1:07:18Jocko Willink?

  Well, I guess my point is that if you're, if this is coming from someone who talks about leadership all the time, literally wrote a book about leadership.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:25Jocko Willink?

  And I'm saying, hey, you might not want to talk about leadership.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Talk about it that much.

• 1:07:28Jocko Willink?

  That's my point, right?

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:30Jocko Willink?

  That's my point.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, good point.

• 1:07:32Jocko Willink?

  Just, just, just back off a little bit.

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if you were like, you know, you go on the road, you do one of your, you know, your deals and then, you know, at dinner with your family, you start going into your leadership stuff with them. That's what you shouldn't do.

• 1:07:52Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes, but I'm, what I'm saying is with your team, with your platoon, you don't sit there and say, alright, today we're going to talk about leadership again.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't quote unquote emphasize the importance of good leadership.

• 1:08:06Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  You demonstrate it.

• 1:08:08Jocko Willink?

  You just lead.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:09Jocko Willink?

  You just lead. They're smarter than you think they're, you know what you're end of doing is you're kind of condescending.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:14Jocko Willink?

  You can't help it because you're treating them like they don't know. You want to talk about the importance of leadership. They know what the importance of leadership, they're in the military.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:21Jocko Willink?

  In fact, an example of their reaction of how people take it when you start preaching to them. You know how they take it? They mock you. That's a lesson learned.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:08:33Jocko Willink?

  That's a lesson learned. If people are mocking you, they're not taking you seriously.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:38Jocko Willink?

  That means you're doing something wrong. What you're doing wrong in this case is you're condescendingly talking to them about the importance of leadership. They know what the importance of leadership is.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:47Jocko Willink?

  They're in the military. They know how bad it is to have a bad platoon sergeant or a bad platoon, uh, platoon commander. They know.

• 1:08:56Jocko Willink?

  Don't need to rub it in their face.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Remember, I think I told you this story about one of my friends, I'm not gonna name his name, because I'm certain you know he's a Navy SEAL. We were at a party, and he got, he got choked. And he's sitting at the table explaining to all of us how badass Navy SEALs are.

• 1:09:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  Like, for a long time, too. This is, and he even said those words, Navy SEALs are just so badass. Like, we're so badass, and this is why, and all this stuff. And it's the exact same thing, because we know Navy SEALs are badass, but you sitting here telling us how badass you and all Navy SEALs are is gonna make us mock you a little bit.

• 1:09:31Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna get mocked. Not even a little bit, you're gonna get mocked a lot.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  You're gonna get mocked by other Navy SEALs, by the way.

• 1:09:35Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Doing that stuff. Anyway.

• 1:09:38Jocko Willink?

  Check. Well, I'm glad that this guy is asking the question. I'm glad that the guy is focused on leadership. And I hope that these points can come across and be digested with no, you know, it's real easy to get offended by what I'm saying, right?

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:56Jocko Willink?

  If you're him, you're like, well, he just doesn't get it, you know what I mean? It's real easy to say that.

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:00Jocko Willink?

  We usually say, yo, yo, it's easy for him to say, he doesn't know what he's talking about, I'm the one that's here, I'm trying to get these guys to be better, you know, I'm trying to get my platoon to understand the importance of leadership. I know, man, I know, and I respect that. I like the fact that you're, have that mindset, man, that's awesome.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:10:15Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:16Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome.

• 1:10:18Jocko Willink?

  Come from the flank a little bit. Come from the flank, man. You're not gonna, you're not gonna, you're not gonna get that, get it done this way.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  It's kinda like if you try to convince everyone that you're the most humble person in the world. You know? I'm the, nobody more humble than me.

• 1:10:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  I'm the most humble, I'm humbler than that guy, I'm humbler than you, I'm humbler than anyone who, who've ever lived. I'm just the most humble guy in the world. It just doesn't work like that, huh?

• 1:10:44Jocko Willink?

  No, it doesn't work that way.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  Next question.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  Jocko, how do you lead a team of volunteers? How to punish or discipline them? Can't threaten to fire them? Because they're all I have. I know a leader does so much more than threaten and punish, but I need some guidance. Try to motivate, but feel the need to do more. Thanks.

• 1:11:11Jocko Willink?

  Trying to answer this one quickly, because this is kind of a question I've answered before in a different form.

• 1:11:17Jocko Willink?

  Do they understand why they're doing what they're doing? And do they understand why it's important? Do they understand how what they are doing will benefit them? Do they also see you working hard to try and make things happen? So those are just the basic questions. Let's just get those out there every time. Every time someone's not doing what you want them to do, do they understand why they're doing what they're doing? Do they understand why it's important to the mission? And do they understand how being successful in the mission will benefit them? So let's just get those out of the way. Next, what can we do here? Have you gamified the situation at all? How do you like that? Gamified, right? Have you gamified the situation? Because I realize that's a term that's getting thrown around now, but we would gamify stupid things all the time in the SEAL teams to make them fun. Right?

• 1:12:02Jocko Willink?

  How much brass can you pick up? Let's see. I'll pick up more than you. My squad will pick up more brass than you'll pick up. All of a sudden, we're running around the range trying to pick up brass. One of the most miserable things that you have to do in the SEAL teams is pick up brass off the hot range in the summertime. And you do it for like two days. Because once you get done with all your work, you gotta go pick up millions of rounds of brass spread out all over the desert in August, in the Imperial Valley. It's hot. It sucks. But guess what we're gonna do? Have a contest. So what are you gonna do to gamify it? Like what kind of cool competition around some short-term goal can you set up? That's gonna be, that's gonna make it fun for them? Some kind of cool reward? What about some kind of friendly bets

• 1:12:47Jocko Willink?

  around achieving something? Like I bet if I raise this much money, you know, I will go to work with a pair of underwear on my head. Or you have to, you know what I mean? Whatever these stupid bets. You know what we used to do in the teams is we'd bet one dollar. One of my old running mates. We, we, we had something like critical. I'll bet you one dollar.

• 1:13:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:08Jocko Willink?

  That was like the biggest bet you could make.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Jocko Willink?

  Cause it's just, it's pure pride.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:13Jocko Willink?

  So, you know, and then we'd, we'd always have fun if you were collecting or if you're giving the dollar. Collecting the dollar was just totally glorious.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:21Jocko Willink?

  Giving the dollar was shame.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:23Jocko Willink?

  And you're in shape.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you could add like, okay, when you give me this dollar, A, it has to be in front of everybody. B, you have to, I don't know, you have to do it while like walking on your knees or something, something real kind of demeaning like that, you know?

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but we didn't even have to do all that.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:36Jocko Willink?

  Between me and my running mate, if we won or lost the bet, it was like.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  Let a loser.

• 1:13:42Jocko Willink?

  You know, and, and you wouldn't even ask for the money. You just look at him.

• 1:13:47Jocko Willink?

  And this buddy of mine, he had one of the most classic looks when he'd give you the look, when I'd lose a bet to him and he gave me the look, I, I, I wanted to cry.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He lost so much more than that dollar.

• 1:13:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, lost a lot, a lot. So maybe you make a bet for a dollar and if that's not working, okay, now if that's not working, if you can't game a five, if you can't have fun with it.

• 1:14:05Jocko Willink?

  Maybe ask them while they're, why they are there and, and figure out what their motivation is for being there and how you can tie that into something concrete. And then also like, like you might have some people that hurt, aren't really into this. And then lower your expectations of this particular group of people and go out and recruit some people that want to get after it.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 1:14:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:33Jocko Willink?

  Have some fun. Fun goes a long way.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:37Jocko Willink?

  Fun goes a long way. Having fun doing things goes a long way.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  And, and that praise thing too, you know, when you said like, add like a reward or something for, cause a lot of times, especially volunteers where, so you know, and we all feel this, like even at, at work, you can have like a super fun job, but you'll get, you'll people generally speaking, tend to get complacent in one way or another, you know, when things are routine or things are, you know, not as exciting or whatever. And you know, when you're volunteering and that happens, it's kind of like, you're not tied there by a paycheck really, you know, which is just, it's just a powerful tie, you know, that people have to work. It's like, yeah, I don't like my job, but it's pays the bills and paying the bills is a big deal kind of thing. So if you add that element of excitement or fun, or you know, a little personal payoff in one way or another, I think that helps a lot of the time.

• 1:15:23Jocko Willink?

  Indeed.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  And that tends to happen too if the, if the, I'm not saying this person is doing this or not doing this, but like if they become kind of complacent in not recognizing how much they, they, they appreciate the volunteers, you know? Like if they're just like, oh yeah, this is just business as usual, you know? Thanks for coming in, that's kind of it, kind of thing. And they're, you know, then it just gets kind of, kind of blah, you know? Like there's not the payoff that they used to have, you know? But if you can kind of keep that going, keep them in the game.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Next question. Do I need to keep training jujitsu if I hate it? I mean, can I just live my life the way I think it should be, which is of health, energy and become, becoming a force of nature as a doctor, without dreaming up of some invisible enemies on the street that I've yet to come across in preparing and spending my pittance of wage, of a wage on lessons that I hate in every sorts of ways for something that might be avoided? Physical clash. If I learnt to use wit and saving my money to move into a good neighborhood? And I've been successful in preventing physical clashes to occur? I've learnt basic ways to escape them out. I can run, I'm fairly strong, isn't that enough?

• 1:16:38Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so, yeah, bro.

• 1:16:43Jocko Willink?

  Jiu-jitsu is not the meaning of life. All right? Jiu-jitsu has a lot of, I mean, I find jiu-jitsu very enjoyable. I get a lot out of it beyond physical training, beyond self-defense.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:57Jocko Willink?

  I get a lot out of it and I apply it in all different sorts of realms in my life. But if you hate it.

• 1:17:06Jocko Willink?

  And, and you've learned some basic ways to defend yourself, escape them out, maybe some basic guards type stuff. Then, then, okay, I mean, then step away. You shouldn't be going through life doing something that you hate. If I were you, I'd still train occasionally, even if it's just like, once every two or three weeks, once a month, just to keep some of the ideas fresh. And also, also, there's always the possibility that'll click in your head and you'll realize this, there's like a magical thing that you could get out of the jujitsu. And it's kinda like waking up, you know, waking up at 4:30 in the morning. That's the time I wake up. And, and first of all, I'm genetically predisposed to sleep less than most people. And, for instance,

• 1:17:48Jocko Willink?

  we just had daylight savings time. And, and so, and I went to bed, so I set back my clock, and it was, it was like 9:40 at night. So I went from 10:40, when I was going to bed, I set back my clock, and now it's 9:40. And I said, oh, cool, you know, I'll sleep extra hour. We know what time I woke up? Like 2:48. And then I, I laid in bed saying, no, sleep more, sleep more, sleep more. I couldn't do it. So I got out of bed at 3:30. But that's, that's me. And, and, and, that's, that's just me. And, it depends what your schedule is. It depends on what your genetic makeup is for sleep. And if you work the night shift, then obviously, you're working at 4:30 in the morning. Or you're getting off at, of

• 1:18:33Jocko Willink?

  work at 4:30 in the morning. So this, this doesn't work. And, I try and put that caveat on, pretty much everything that I say. Like my workouts, what I eat. Um, everyone's a little bit different. And I like what I like, and, and I do what I do. And it works for me. And you can try it. And if you come up with something that's better, I'll listen to you. Um, and that's the same with jujitsu, man. If you hate it, then, you know, maybe it's not for you. And, and, you know, what I, what I truly think, my, my true thought, is it beneficial for you? Yes, it is. Should you stop doing everything that you don't like, just because you don't like it? No. I mean, there's some things that you should

• 1:19:15Jocko Willink?

  press on. Should you get a, should everyone have a fundamental level of knowledge of jujitsu? It's very, very beneficial. Uh, but if you hate it, and, and you've kinda come to that conclusion, then don't do it.

• 1:19:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and, and, and I think also, once you give yourself that out,

• 1:19:38Jocko Willink?

  once you give yourself the out, and you're not forcing yourself to do it anymore,

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:42Jocko Willink?

  it might open up your mind to actually enjoy it and try it and not be miserable about it.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  That's what actually what I was gonna say. I was like, it's, they're probably, and I don't know, but easily, this, some people don't like it, straight up. I gotta accept that. I know, I know. But, that being said, there is a possibility that the environment that this person or that people train in sometimes will make you not like it. And it's not necessarily the jujitsu you don't like. Sure, not it wound up that way. You don't like jujitsu anymore because you were kind of, you know, pushed in the wrong direction as far as like what you like and don't like.

• 1:20:23Jocko Willink?

  So you could try a different school.

• 1:20:24Speaker 01

  Try a different school.

• 1:20:25Jocko Willink?

  Try a different school. Yeah, like I said earlier today, some schools are really strict and rigid and maybe that's would be better for you. Some schools are real wild and there's no control. Maybe that that be a better school depending on what your personality is. Uh, some people like that regimented environment.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you could, you could definitely try a different school. Uh, but again, I think, I think the mental hurdle to come over is you've told yourself that you have to do it and now tell yourself you don't have to do it if you don't want to.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  But certain, and, and you say try a different school, it, it's the environment that you train in. So the school's part of the environment for sure, but it's like training partners. It's like the, uh, which can wind up as the pressure you put on yourself. It's like everything, you know, the whole environment. So I know that and people are different. People told, some people, they want that pressure. They want people yelling. You know, like, remember I used to tell you, like, when you start coaching either me or just in training, you know, like you'll get fired up when you see two people training or whatever, and you'll be like, do this, and you'll start coaching. It's almost like you're, like as a friend, you're doing it, like just for fun and you're like, okay, do this. And you usually coach up the other guy.

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  When I'm rolling with him and that other guy, oh, oh, he's getting coached by Jocko. So he turns up the heat and bro, I don't like that because it's now it's like a thing, you know? I don't like that at all, bro. But some people do like that. Some people that get some fired up, it gets them more in the game, you know? So I'm saying people are different. So. The possibility is that this guy happens to be in the wrong environment for jujitsu.

• 1:21:52Jocko Willink?

  For him, for jujitsu for him.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  For himself, yes, exactly.

• 1:21:55Jocko Willink?

  That is a possibility.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  And just like I said, you know, he, he could very well be putting that pressure on himself, like you have to go. And everyone's saying how great it is and it's the best thing. And if you don't show up to practice, you're whack and you're lame or get on the back of it, you know?

• 1:22:09Jocko Willink?

  If you get told all the time, it's the best thing in the world and, and then you show up there and you get beat up, which is what happens.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Yes, and you, and yeah.

• 1:22:16Jocko Willink?

  And now you're like, how does everyone like this?

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:19Jocko Willink?

  This doesn't feel good to me and you just go in a negative mindset right away. So yeah, you should be careful of that.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  And that's not to mention when you even imply that you don't necessarily like it. Oh yeah, cuz you suck. Oh yeah, cuz you're this or you're weak or you're whatever. You're a slacker. Like basically all this negativity, you know, it's gonna turn you off even more. So now, yeah, you hate it now.

• 1:22:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, which, which there's a, the reality of it is some, some things don't agree with some people. Right? That's, that's a reality. Like there's some things in the world that, that I don't, I, I, I know, I, I just don't like them. Like when we were driving to LA, you're playing some music.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:58Jocko Willink?

  Some of the music that you're playing is, is popular music. I, I, I just don't like it. I just don't like it. And, and there's other things like that in the world. Um, I'm trying to think of things that I just, just like other people like them.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:12Jocko Willink?

  And I just don't like them. I just don't.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  Pokemon Go. That's one thing I really like.

• 1:23:17Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I don't, I've never even thought about Pokemon Go. It seems like a cool idea. You got, you look for things on your phone. I mean, well, I'm not, that's not the type of thing that I'm talking about.

• 1:23:27Jocko Willink?

  You know, I guess.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  Dancing at the club.

• 1:23:30Jocko Willink?

  No, I mean, I'm, I don't care about, I'm trying to think of something that's, um, I guess music is the best, is one of the best examples for me is, is, you know, hey, there's certain types of music, certain artists.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:44Jocko Willink?

  Like Leif. Leif likes hair, Leif likes hair metal from the nineties.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:49Jocko Willink?

  He legit likes it, right? And, and I, I like legit do not like it. And, and the reason I, the reason that's a good example is because that's not far off from kind of the music that I do like, right? I mean, I like, I like Led Zeppelin. I mean, I love Led Zeppelin, right? Led Zeppelin's awesome. And and the step from Led Zeppelin to to to Poison. I mean, you could you they could be in the same record category in the store, right? Rock and roll.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:19Jocko Willink?

  Ah Led Zeppelin, I love.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:22Jocko Willink?

  I Poison kind of turns my stomach. I I hate it. And so that's an example of so some things they just don't sit well with you.

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:30Jocko Willink?

  And and maybe jujitsu doesn't sit well with this guy now. Um, like I said, I think there's a lot of benefits to it. I think you get a lot out of it. Try a different environment, but if you hate it, don't make force yourself to do it. Open, open the escape.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:45Jocko Willink?

  Give yourself an out and that allows you to feel more comfortable. Cause when you feel trapped, everyone feels like a cornered animal and now you're just pissed off.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:54Jocko Willink?

  You you've been like, hey, these guys, everyone I hear everyone talking about jujitsu, so I'm gonna try it.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:58Jocko Willink?

  And now your first day, you don't like it.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:00Jocko Willink?

  But you're like, I'm gonna keep doing it because everyone's saying it's great. And and you just end up in a bad way.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:05Jocko Willink?

  So be careful with that one.

• 1:25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're kind of trapped with it with the junk parts of it.

• 1:25:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  That that kind of came about and yeah, and you can't really escape it. Then you're like rebel against it.

• 1:25:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, remember when we were driving up to LA, I was playing Carrie by Europe? That is actually technically eighties hair metal.

• 1:25:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's an eighties. Yeah, for sure.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  But you were really mad.

• 1:25:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. No, I'm telling you that music doesn't sit well with me for some reason.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  You got little bit.

• 1:25:36Jocko Willink?

  And going back to Leif, like Leif likes Metallica, Leif likes Black Sabbath, Leif likes Tool. He likes rocking bands too.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:43Jocko Willink?

  For some reason, there's some genetic code in his head that Poison's cool.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, just lets it right in, huh?

• 1:25:48Jocko Willink?

  Mine gets the and whole.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:51Jocko Willink?

  But then I guess on the other end of the spectrum, you'd get we get into music that Leif and like like Leif likes Pantera. Pantera is a hard band. Now I go one step further than Pantera, right?

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:26:01Jocko Willink?

  Some of the music that I listen to. Uh, which I think leaves Leif a little bit where he wouldn't listen to some of the harder music that I listen to. But Pantera is, you know, brushing up against it.

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  Hey, do you listen to soft music?

• 1:26:13Jocko Willink?

  Uh, what do you consider soft music?

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  Some some, I don't know, something about love songs. I don't know. So, you know, something soft. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:26:21Jocko Willink?

  I'd say White Buffalo. White Buffalo is hard acoustic music, but you know, he's got some pretty mellow songs. He got a song called Love Song Number One.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  What's it about though? Like, is it like romantic? You know, is he talking about his love that he loves a girl or something like that?

• 1:26:36Jocko Willink?

  I would say yes.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it kinda doesn't count, cause you know how like-

• 1:26:40Jocko Willink?

  Well, how can that not count?

• 1:26:41Speaker 01

  I don't know, because you know how like, like Metallica, for example, they have Unforgiven, right? So it sounds softer, but they're still talking about hard stuff.

• 1:26:49Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  And then they have like Enter Sandman, which is-

• 1:26:53Jocko Willink?

  Okay, well, then I guess I'm just not, no. My answer to you is no.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Like, do you like stuff by- See, you're still talking about, like, these aren't soft things. Like, you know, okay, so I was playing Al Jarreau, remember? Remember Al Jarreau? And you were like, "What the fuck is this?" And you were pissed. You were mad at me personally, like you- And you were like, "Who is this?" And I'm like, "No, no, you know what, though? Actually, I played another song, uh, who was it? It was like Josh Raiden or something. And you were like, "Hey, this is pretty good." I was very surprised. It was a soft song. Remember? Do you remember?

• 1:27:29Jocko Willink?

  That's, well, my musical tastes are varied. I like different types of music.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I guess-

• 1:27:34Jocko Willink?

  But there's some types of music that I don't like.

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I sometimes wonder with you, like, if you're the kind, you know how some people, they just, just- I like music, not, I'm not saying me, I'm just saying, certain people, they are into just a specific type of music. That's it. That's the whole reason for music in their head, is like this very specific feeling. Like, some people that I'd known before, they only like house music. They only, like, anything other than house music is like, it's just, they'll rather listen to nothing. So I was wondering if you're like, kinda that kind.

• 1:28:06Jocko Willink?

  No, because I listen to all different kinds of music.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:08Jocko Willink?

  Well, at least-

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  Just not, maybe not all different-

• 1:28:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, no, okay, you're right. I listen to a wide range of music.

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  Various types, sure. There you go. Not Al Jarreau, though.

• 1:28:20Jocko Willink?

  I forget the song, but maybe we can refer back to it later.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  Some other time, cool.

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Alright, next question, how about that?

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Dang, I kinda feel bad for the guy who hates jujitsu, that's kinda crazy.

• 1:28:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a bummer, but it's not that rare.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense, it totally makes sense.

• 1:28:41Jocko Willink?

  And I was actually talking with, you know Dave Camarillo?

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Sure, I know who that is, I don't know him personally.

• 1:28:46Jocko Willink?

  Well, I was up with him up in San Francisco area yesterday. And we were talking about how some people don't like jujitsu.

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:56Jocko Willink?

  And you'd think even people that are, you would think would like jujitsu. People that have jobs that jujitsu would be really beneficial for them to know.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:07Jocko Willink?

  They don't like jujitsu.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:09Jocko Willink?

  And so, and I was saying that I've introduced a lot of people to jujitsu. A lot of people to jujitsu. Not many of them have actually stuck with it for a long period of time.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:21Jocko Willink?

  And, and so, it's not that rare for people to not like jujitsu.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I dig it, it's like not sticking with it, because jujitsu takes work. It's not like this easy thing that provides just a bunch of massages.

• 1:29:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you're saying there's a difference between not liking jujitsu and not actually sticking with it?

• 1:29:37Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, so this guy's straight up, "I hate it."

• 1:29:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a little bit more powerful of a statement, yeah.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he definitely doesn't like it.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  People who don't stick with it, for the most part, this is just a total guess on my part.

• 1:29:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, lazy and lack discipline.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, like they, they just, they, they, they don't like it enough on a, on a kinda moment to moment basis to, to get off the couch and go. That's kinda it, you know? It's one of those situations. Next question. Jocko, "I have a question after reading your book, which I thought was one of the best books I've read since your last book." Nice. "I'm curious what, what you did during your SEAL Team days to maintain your, your schedule. As I would imagine in the teams, your schedule changes at any minute to include you being deployed or active during your various missions at night. So, as in life, how do you keep your balance of your schedule when duty calls? In your book, you say..."

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  Keep your schedule, but how did you work through this when you would be on a mission? That didn't allow you to sleep at night? Did you still, did you still the following day upon return, maintain your normal schedule? Appreciate your time and response.

• 1:30:50Jocko Willink?

  Great. Yeah, obviously the teams, your schedule and the teams can vary a lot and you have to adopt to what makes sense. And sometimes in the teams, you're working 18, 20 hour days. Sometimes out in the field, you're going to the field for two, three, four, five days at a time. Uh, sometimes you're working for 24 hours a day or you work for 36 hours straight because you do planning and the blah, blah, blah. So that can be a problem. Sometimes you're doing dives. You're doing two dives a day and that takes a bunch of time and it takes a toll on you. It's hard work. I guess you could say, um, sometimes we're running around all day or all night. Running around the desert, running around the urban training facility. And so the schedule's changing all the time and it's the same thing with business.

• 1:31:32Jocko Willink?

  The same thing with business. Right now I travel and the flight leaves early, the flight leaves later, the work all day or the dinner with the clients or the interview or the writing or the, the recording of the podcast or the changing time zones and things just change. And so what, what I do is yes, I try and, I try and keep the schedule as much as I can. And if I fall off the schedule for whatever reason, I get back on it as quickly as possible. And I think, so, so yes, you do the best you can. I think the main thing you have to watch out for is letting, letting a change in schedule or a problem in your schedule be an excuse to fall off the path, right? That, that's what you have to watch out for. Um, you know, we think, oh, I'm in a new time zone or I've got jet lag or I didn't sleep well or I need rest from traveling

• 1:32:16Jocko Willink?

  or I did this the other night and so I'm going to sleep until nine 30 tomorrow morning and just call it good. That's what you have to watch out for. Now, sometimes you need to work till nine, do you sleep till nine 30? Yeah, sometimes you do. Sometimes you stayed up for 36 hours. You go to bed at three o'clock in the morning. Guess what? You might need to sleep until nine 30. That's cool. Good. Do it. Get some sleep. Um, but just be careful of using it as an excuse to go way off the path and just get yourself back on the path as soon as possible.

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:49Jocko Willink?

  Make sense?

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Yeah, that's all me right there. Like, one little thing on my schedule throws up, ah, this whole day is gone. I'll do it tomorrow.

• 1:32:59Jocko Willink?

  He's gotta be careful in that. Uh, speaking of schedule, I think we're about good for questions. There's one more thing that I wanted to close out with. And, you know, I get a lot of, I get a lot of really, uh, great

• 1:33:12Jocko Willink?

  emails. I got a lot of great, um, messages through social media, letters, written letters. I get all those kinds of things and I appreciate them all. I, I, I don't always respond to all of them because there's, I, I, I physically cannot do it.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:28Jocko Willink?

  And of course, you know, oh, get someone to manage your social media or whatever. I'm not doing that.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:34Jocko Willink?

  If you hear back from me, you hear from me, not from somebody that I paid ten dollars an hour to respond to my stuff and say, "Cool, get after it." Like, no. Uh, I'm not doing that, but

• 1:33:48Jocko Willink?

  you know, I get, I get all these things and I, I do read them. So if you send it, I read it. And so I appreciate the feedback and everything. I got one though, that I, that was good. I wanted to, I actually wanted to read on here because I, I felt that it not only said, "Hey, thanks for, you know, the podcast or whatever, thanks for the books, whatever." It, it actually gave some pretty good methodology and really an insight into a mindset that I think will help people doing what they're doing. So here we go. Mr. Willink, just wanted to share a quick story with you. "At thirty-nine, I had fallen into a fifteen-year rut of undisciplined alcoholism. I was soft and heavy and wanted to change.

• 1:34:33Jocko Willink?

  Earlier this year, I had started working out three to four times a week in my basement. I was trying and failing to get a handle on my alcohol abuse. Every failure made the beast seem bigger and unbeatable.

• 1:34:47Jocko Willink?

  It was like I didn't have control over my body." I finished your book on a Monday night and decided that I would get up early the next morning and work out. I got up and worked out. Not much, but I just wanted to do something. Sit-ups, push-ups, fifteen minutes on the bike. Worked out twice Tuesday.

• 1:35:10Jocko Willink?

  Got up Wednesday and did it again.

• 1:35:14Jocko Willink?

  Got to Thursday night, a normal drinking night, and decided to try not drinking.

• 1:35:20Jocko Willink?

  Made it through. Friday, same thing. Worked out morning and night, stayed busy, and stayed away from the drink.

• 1:35:30Jocko Willink?

  Thought I should try and push it through the weekend.

• 1:35:33Jocko Willink?

  Worked out Saturday morning. Took the rest of the weekend off and stayed dry. Monday morning, I got up and started two-a-days again. Made it through the week with eleven workouts. By the second week, I felt better than I had in my entire life. I was astounded that normal people walked around feeling this good.

• 1:35:58Jocko Willink?

  I guess not systematically poisoning your body will do that. On the fifth week, I got a project at work that was going to require traveling for the next eight weeks. I was worried about overcoming my triggers and road habits. A normal traveling evening was dinner, watch cable, and drink eight beers.

• 1:36:21Jocko Willink?

  To my surprise, the hotel had a sweet gym. Cool. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. Then at the site, I found out that we would start work at 6:00 a.m. Damn, that means I have to get up at four to work out.

• 1:36:36Jocko Willink?

  I'm twelve weeks into my traveling two-a-days, usually getting eleven to twelve workouts a week. They recently moved our start time to 7:00 a.m., so now I get an hour and a half in the morning and evening.

• 1:36:50Jocko Willink?

  I'm sixteen weeks clean. Dropped thirty pounds or more. Haven't been on a scale in three weeks. Thirty-four waist jeans hang off of me. My sit-up and push-up sets went from ten to forty to fifty. Kettlebell swings went from thirty-five by ten to fifty by fifteen.

• 1:37:13Jocko Willink?

  I started to learn how to run as I haven't done it in 20 years. Now, after a day off, I can do two miles without stopping. I do four to five miles on the treadmill and nine miles on the bike besides the sit-ups, push-ups, kettlebells, core, and weights.

• 1:37:34Jocko Willink?

  I look forward to next year's competitive shooting season. I'm going to bring it.

• 1:37:39Jocko Willink?

  At this point, my cravings are gone and I actually recoil from the smell of booze.

• 1:37:46Jocko Willink?

  When I started this, I thought it would be temporary. Now it's going to be permanent. No reason to waste time with it anymore.

• 1:37:56Jocko Willink?

  Now, when I question something, your voice comes to me with the hard answer.

• 1:38:02Jocko Willink?

  It's only black and white with no gray area.

• 1:38:06Jocko Willink?

  One day, when I'm standing before the Lord and hear his voice, if it doesn't sound like yours, I might be disappointed.

• 1:38:16Jocko Willink?

  The book I read those months ago was The Way of the Warrior Kid.

• 1:38:23Jocko Willink?

  I'm working on Extreme Ownership now.

• 1:38:26Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for your service. Thank you for producing a badass podcast. And thank you for influencing my life.

• 1:38:38Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 1:38:41Jocko Willink?

  There you go. And I say this to people all the time.

• 1:38:48Jocko Willink?

  Most important here is, it isn't me.

• 1:38:54Jocko Willink?

  It's you. And sure, you may have grabbed some little foothold from the podcast or from one of the books, but it isn't me that changes you. It's you.

• 1:39:07Jocko Willink?

  You set the small goals. You achieve those goals. Then, set some more and achieve those and set some more goals, maybe a little bit bigger, but not that much bigger.

• 1:39:21Jocko Willink?

  You pay attention to the progress. This guy is 16 weeks deep.

• 1:39:27Jocko Willink?

  30 pounds lighter. Working harder, stronger, faster, more efficient, competitive.

• 1:39:37Jocko Willink?

  The individual that wrote that is getting after it and changing his life. And you can too.

• 1:39:47Jocko Willink?

  Just start.

• 1:39:50Jocko Willink?

  Start.

• 1:39:52Jocko Willink?

  Small.

• 1:39:54Jocko Willink?

  Start with changing tomorrow morning, just tomorrow morning.

• 1:39:59Jocko Willink?

  Get that squared away.

• 1:40:02Jocko Willink?

  And then move on to the next day and the next and move your life to a better place. One little step.

• 1:40:13Jocko Willink?

  One little victory. At a time.

• 1:40:19Jocko Willink?

  Appreciate the letter. And I think that's. All I've got for tonight. So Echo, speaking of people getting better, stronger and faster. And actually supporting the podcast, if they want to do that.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:40:37Jocko Willink?

  Do you have any suggestions for us?

• 1:40:40Speaker 01

  Sure, of course I do.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  I can talk about the fact that Origin.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  Has a new key coming out.

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  Good one.

• 1:40:54Speaker 01

  I don't know that the name of the key, you know how keys have names?

• 1:40:58Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  You know, like, well, Origin does.

• 1:41:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Axiom, you know?

• 1:41:02Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  That's a cool name too, by the way, Axiom. But this one is called, I think. Discipline?

• 1:41:08Jocko Willink?

  I think it might be called Discipline.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Not the discipline, just just.

• 1:41:14Jocko Willink?

  This discipline, it could be called that.

• 1:41:16Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:41:16Jocko Willink?

  You could check it out, originmaine.com, right?

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Surprisingly aesthetically.

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:41:27Jocko Willink?

  I would say it's, I would say it's probably.

• 1:41:32Jocko Willink?

  Is the term they use like on brand?

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  On brand.

• 1:41:35Jocko Willink?

  Meaning it kind of.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  Fits.

• 1:41:37Jocko Willink?

  Fits.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  Fits your brand.

• 1:41:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:41:40Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:41:40Jocko Willink?

  I'd say it does that.

• 1:41:41Speaker 01

  By jaw. Yeah, yeah, it totally does. It um. It's like, yeah, it's not the kind where you know how like some gee's like. You look at them, you can tell there's like all these bells and whistles as far as decorations go.

• 1:41:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a good word. Decorations.

• 1:41:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So but.

• 1:41:59Jocko Willink?

  We're not looking for decorations.

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  Here's the thing, though. There are some, there are some, uh, how should I say? Functional decorations. Now that's not actually a good word for it. Anyway, it, it looks cool. Put it that way. It looks cool. In a little basic way. Um, kind of lighter weight one. For functionality, but awesome nonetheless. Uh, look at it. I got a white one. I know you got the black one. Cool.

• 1:42:26Jocko Willink?

  How do you know I don't have both?

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure you do have both and I'm still working on the black one, but that's a long story. Nonetheless, it's a good one. And. A lot, like back when we first started, everyone would ask in the, I don't want to say everyone, but a lot of people.

• 1:42:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  You know, I don't like, I, it feels weird me saying it. Like, yeah, a lot of people.

• 1:42:46Jocko Willink?

  You just have to say some people.

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  Some people. But the thing is, a lot of people, though. It's like a lot of people ask, what gee should I get? I'm making the disclaimer. It was a lot of people. It wasn't the kind like, oh, you know, my little brother asked me once and then asked me again. It was, it's a lot of people. Maybe.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  Two times a week. Two times a week for two years, by the way. That's a lot of people.

• 1:43:10Jocko Willink?

  It's a decent amount of people.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  Asking the same exact question. Anyway, they asked like, oh, what kind of gee should I get or whatever? Now? There's like, yeah, origin gee's and then now I'm saying, get this one. This is the one. Straight up.

• 1:43:21Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  I don't know that I'll wear any other gee. I'm not saying I won't. I'm just saying I don't know that I.

• 1:43:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And actually, I don't know if you know this. Did you know that they're gonna sell this gee? And a certain number of them, 400, you're gonna get a copy of Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  Oh dang, yeah.

• 1:43:40Jocko Willink?

  Signed. I signed them all. So if you wanna sign a copy, you can get that gi and yeah, it'd be cool.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  It's like a little, little package.

• 1:43:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, little discipline package.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:51Jocko Willink?

  If you end up hating jujitsu, what do you do?

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  Hang up the gi.

• 1:43:55Jocko Willink?

  Hang it up.

• 1:43:55Speaker 01

  Hang up the gi and...

• 1:43:57Jocko Willink?

  Hopefully you don't hate jujitsu like that one question today.

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:01Jocko Willink?

  Hopefully you love jujitsu. Most likely you'll love jujitsu.

• 1:44:03Speaker 01

  You could, yeah, hopefully. Yeah, if you're getting the Discipline Equals Freedom gi, is it Discipline Equals Freedom gi? Or just Discipline?

• 1:44:10Jocko Willink?

  It might just be called the DEF gi. I don't know.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  DEF gi. Well, yeah, that's good. D E F. Discipline equals freedom. It's good. It's embroidered as the American ma- Yeah, and it is made in America, like all the words and stuff, by the way. Yeah. That's a good one. Anyway, look at that one. Get that one. If you're still looking for a gi, get that one. Even if you're not looking for a gi, just look at this gi.

• 1:44:30Jocko Willink?

  Brandon Pickworth, he, he, he said on Twitter, he's gonna get the gi even though he's not training jujitsu.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  Dang.

• 1:44:36Jocko Willink?

  And, and actually, I, I have, I didn't respond to Brandon, but I'll respond right now. Get the gi and train jujitsu, Brandon.

• 1:44:44Speaker 01

  It's the kind where he's gonna, he's gonna, by the way. He's gonna, he's gonna get the gi. It's like he-

• 1:44:49Jocko Willink?

  But then train jujitsu, dude.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's gonna.

• 1:44:51Jocko Willink?

  Come on.

• 1:44:52Speaker 01

  I, that's my bet. I would, I almost am challenging him to prove me wrong. That's how much I know.

• 1:44:58Jocko Willink?

  He already went and proved to everyone that he could do 100 burpees in 10 minutes. It was a challenge for him. It was hard for him.

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:03Jocko Willink?

  But he did it.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that was his original challenge, by the way.

• 1:45:06Jocko Willink?

  On the mat.

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. He's gonna. You can't just get the gi. When you put it on, and this goes for pretty much any like legitimate gi, when you put it on, you're like-

• 1:45:14Jocko Willink?

  You wanna train.

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  Alright, and this is true. Like, you ever, um, like, we, we did it in Maine. Like, it happens all the time. When you had, you put on the gi, just so you know, you feel it, and when-

• 1:45:23Jocko Willink?

  You start grabbing it.

• 1:45:24Speaker 01

  I grab it, you're like, oh, it's time, you know, kind of thing. Yeah, man.

• 1:45:26Jocko Willink?

  Same thing with the rash guards, too.

• 1:45:27Speaker 01

  Same exact thing. Yeah. Exactly right.

• 1:45:31Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  And this gi's no different. In fact, it might even have that even more.

• 1:45:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  That feeling.

• 1:45:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's good.

• 1:45:39Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, um, yeah, so it comes from Origin, if you didn't already pick that part up. OriginMaine.com. There's a lot of gis on there, even if you want to get a, another one. Other than the, you know what I do? I have all the patches that, you know how like- Like knock on Nolan and you know they'll give you like their their police patches and stuff like that. I'm gonna have all of them on my gi, all of them.

• 1:46:05Jocko Willink?

  How many do you have?

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  About 12.

• 1:46:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay, cuz I have like 90.

• 1:46:12Jocko Willink?

  I've got so many awesome patches from fire departments, police departments, military units all over the country, foreign. Yeah, I got a lot of stuff. That would be a big gi.

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta put them on multiple gees. If you got the black and the white.

• 1:46:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, it wouldn't have enough room. I had a lot of patches, bro.

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and there's certain places you can't really put them too, so that even limits you more. But I'm doing it. I'm starting it. And if I run out of space, I'm getting another gi, boom, I'm gonna keep it going. I do kinda risk people saying, hey, you're not law enforcement, why are you wearing that patch? Like, some of those patches to me seem like, like you give me a NASA one. Like, that's like, do shoot, should I be even wearing this patch?

• 1:46:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we got, we got friends at NASA. Boom.

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  I'm gonna wear it. They'll say, this is from my friends at NASA. Straight up.

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  Anyway, anyway, back to Origin. Origin, that's all American-made stuff. From the cotton, out of the ground, American.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  To the factory, American factory in America, in Maine. Make the material, make the clothing, make the gees, make the rash guards. Make the, what else do they have? Some bags, some tacks.

• 1:47:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:25Speaker 01

  Gym bags and whatnot.

• 1:47:26Jocko Willink?

  Accessories, I believe they're called.

• 1:47:28Speaker 01

  Accessories, yeah.

• 1:47:30Jocko Willink?

  They're like beanies and t-shirts.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  All made in America. Yeah. I think when I told Jordan Peterson that, I think he liked it.

• 1:47:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  Even though he's not American. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:39Jocko Willink?

  And, and the supplements.

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. From Origin Labs. Yeah, those are Jocko's supplements. So, here's the thing. I'm gonna, I'll go into the details later, but super krill, there is a legitimate difference between super krill and regular krill oil. There is. And it's very beneficial. I'm not gonna say it right now, but just know, super krill oil. Jocko brand. Joint Warfare. Jocko brand. For your joints supplements. Boom, Jocko came out with it. That's the stuff. From the beginning, that was the main supplements. You know, joint stuff, krill oil. You're the number one reason, not even the number, the only reason I started taking it. And I'm kind of mad I didn't take it before.

• 1:48:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you were behind.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and now you got your own one, which is even better.

• 1:48:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's super, as a matter of fact.

• 1:48:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's not just a name, though.

• 1:48:32Jocko Willink?

  And in the Joint Warfare, the Joint Warfare has some magic in it.

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:48:37Jocko Willink?

  In my opinion.

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:48:39Jocko Willink?

  And in my shoulders' opinion.

• 1:48:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:41Jocko Willink?

  My left shoulder.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  Both of my shoulders, my back and my elbows. So yeah, orjaming.com, that's the place to go. Also, some legitimate fitness gear. Everyone knows I'm into kettlebells now. I get mine from Onnit. They're the cool ones, straight up. That's it. I don't think I could go back to regular kettlebells. It's my opinion. Got the Werewolf, got the Bigfoot. Ninety pounds, two pounds heavier than Jocko's heaviest kettlebell. Every rep. I think Jordan Peterson was impressed with that, too, by the way.

• 1:49:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he was. That makes one of us.

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  Also, oh, sorry. Onnit.com slash Jocko, that's the one. It's a good spot. You know, also, good way to support. When you buy books that Jocko reviews, I guess technically I kind of help review them.

• 1:49:39Jocko Willink?

  In a real kind of distant way.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Yes, indirect, distant way. Anyway, those books, very compelling books. When you get them, go through the website, jacopodcast.com. Little tab on the top says, "Books from Podcasts." Go through there. Buy the books through there. That's a good way to support. Take it to Amazon, shop in just the way, you know, Prime, one-day shipping, whatever you choose, just like anything else. But go through that, it's a good way to support. And do any other shopping you have to do. Carry on. Good way to support. Also, subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, depending on what kind of... Platform you prefer or is available to you? Cause iPhone, I think, doesn't have Stitcher, right?

• 1:50:25Jocko Willink?

  No, my iPhone has Stitcher.

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  Oh, wait, no, Android doesn't have iOS.

• 1:50:30Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  Apple.

• 1:50:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't think you could listen to, oh, maybe.

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  I don't know either.

• 1:50:35Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, but you can get it, man.

• 1:50:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:37Jocko Willink?

  The podcast is out there, you can subscribe to it.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  The point is subscribe to it, yes, yes, subscribe to it on that one. So good, leave a review if you want, if you're in the mood, leave a review. Also subscribe to it on YouTube.

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  The video version of this podcast, it's a good one. Still, and I still do get the whole thing like, oh, Echo, you don't look like you sound.

• 1:50:58Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  And I remember.

• 1:51:00Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you should change the way you talk.

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Or change the way I look, I don't know, you never know.

• 1:51:06Jocko Willink?

  Get skinny.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:08Jocko Willink?

  Get less jacked.

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  That is, it is kind of an intuitive thing.

• 1:51:13Jocko Willink?

  YouTube comments, like one out of every 20 YouTube comments is Echo's jacked.

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's funny.

• 1:51:23Speaker 01

  It, it kinda is because you wouldn't think that you could determine what someone looks like by what they sound like, but it feels like you can.

• 1:51:30Jocko Willink?

  I think a lot of times you can. I don't know, though, actually, now that you think about like talk show hosts on radios and yeah, you don't know what, yeah, it's.

• 1:51:37Speaker 01

  Kind of can't.

• 1:51:38Jocko Willink?

  I guess it's a, it's, it's, it's harder to do than you think.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels like you can.

• 1:51:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you feel like you can.

• 1:51:44Speaker 01

  If someone has like a, I don't know, like a deep voice, you think they're huge or something, you know, like something like that.

• 1:51:49Jocko Willink?

  Not necessarily true.

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, not true at all. Remember that Seinfeld one?

• 1:51:54Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  There, the guy was like, she, I think Elaine, who's the girl in there, she was like, she was like, oh, he had a a good looking voice or something like, he sounded like he was good looking or something like that.

• 1:52:06Jocko Willink?

  How'd it turn out?

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  I think, I don't know, I forget, I think he was good looking.

• 1:52:09Jocko Willink?

  That was not worth telling that story, you didn't even remember it.

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, the analogy, I didn't remember it, but it reminded me of that nonetheless. Anyway.

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  YouTube, subscribe to YouTube, that's the point there, regardless of if you want to know what I look like or not, doesn't even matter what I look like, really.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  Barely, maybe a little bit, I guess. Maybe I see, because if I see you out in the wild, it'll, you know, we can recognize each other. If you know what I look like.

• 1:52:37Jocko Willink?

  Beneficial.

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  There's times when people will recognize you and you'll like say, oh yeah, this is Echo Charles. And you could tell on their face, they're like, oh wait, are you sure that this is Echo Charles? Kind of thing. I've encountered that.

• 1:52:50Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  For real, like I know, okay, they're sure, just listen, that's cool. I dig it, but if you want to avoid that kind of situation, subscribe to YouTube. Good way to do it and good way to support. Also, Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko Store. jockostore.com. We have t-shirts on there if you want these t-shirts. I'm wearing my good t-shirt right now. I haven't worn this one in a long time. The original. It's like, it's really high quality. Layers too, by the way. The good is backwards to look at in the mirror. That message is for you. If you think about the whole message of good, I mean, I know you said it, you know, you know, you were like, good, kind of thing, but you were kind of,

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  like you guys had the, the luxury of you being there to be able to explain it.

• 1:53:40Speaker 01

  If someone's going through like something hard, it's, you can't just automatically just say good. It kind of comes off kind of weird.

• 1:53:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:48Speaker 01

  Potentially. That's why I put this backwards, because it's like you tell yourself good. You see what I'm saying? That's the layer. That's the little insight to the layer. I'm not going to go deep and I'm not going to go into any of the other explanations for the other layers, but just know that they have layers on all the clothing on jockostore.com. Check it out. I'm not saying to buy something. I'm saying go on there, look on there. If you like something, get something. Good way to support. There's women's stuff on there. T-shirts, like I said, some patches, rash guards for jujitsu or anything physical, cycling, anything requiring range of motion, maybe some compression situations. High aesthetic value, but not too high because it's more about functionality.

• 1:54:34Speaker 01

  That's my take on the whole deal. But they do look good and they have layers. Hoodies are in. Being shipped out right now. They're in heavy. Do you have one?

• 1:54:44Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  Dang, girl, sorry.

• 1:54:49Speaker 01

  Well, we are in California, so you know, it's not that big of a deal. You know, you got your old one. It's all good. Uh, but yeah, there's some hoodies on there. Uh, some Warrior Kids rash guards are coming.

• 1:55:02Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 1:55:02Speaker 01

  Cause people have been asking me about that. Cause I wore one. That was like a test one. And I wore one when I was training with Dave Burke and they're like, oh, Warrior Kid rash guard, you know, whatever. But I was trying to narrow down kind of the colors and stuff, but they're narrowed down and they should be available within the next week and a half.

• 1:55:18Jocko Willink?

  Where are those made?

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  Those are made all in America. All in America Warrior Kid rash guards. Also, there's another kind of cool, fun one, but I won't talk about that one until later. Also, good way to support yourself. Psychological Warfare. If you don't know what that is, it's an album with tracks, Jocko tracks, and they are to aid you in the event of you needing aid. And you're campaigning against weakness. On your path, on the path.

• 1:55:49Speaker 01

  Okay. So here's the thing about the path. It's not always gonna be easy. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:55:54Jocko Willink?

  I know what you're saying.

• 1:55:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Every day, man. This is not a one day gig. This is an everyday gig.

• 1:56:04Speaker 01

  Every day is a Monday.

• 1:56:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:06Speaker 01

  On the path. Here's, I will say this though. Okay. So, and you, you read the, the letter for the guy with, with drinking.

• 1:56:13Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  I could relate to that deeply, deeply could relate to that. And in a way, and I don't want to go too deep into it, but in a way, the, my situation was in a way harder because the drinking wasn't preventing me from working out. It wasn't preventing me from doing like a lot of stuff. It was only preventing me from doing like a handful of things. But those things I really wanted to do, but it was really preventing me. Or it was, put it this way, it was making it super difficult. And then just the fact of like, I'm drinking every single day, you know, kind of thing. And the more you, you know how you, the more you get in the routine on some, with something, the harder the harder it is to just straight up break that routine, especially when it provides the payoff is like drinking does chemically. I mean, you know, like when you drink.

• 1:56:57Jocko Willink?

  The instantaneous payoff.

• 1:56:58Speaker 01

  Exactly, right.

• 1:56:59Jocko Willink?

  Not the long-term payoff.

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  No, long-term payoff.

• 1:57:01Jocko Willink?

  Negative.

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  Like not even proportionately more beneficial to, to, to stop drinking. Like, you know, when he said, um, wow, this is how everyday people walk around feeling good.

• 1:57:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's really, really impactful statement.

• 1:57:17Speaker 01

  Right. That's so true. That's exactly what I thought. I'm like, dang, no wonder freaking these people, Jocko doesn't drink, right? So no wonder Jocko's doing all this stuff. I could, I could do all that stuff too. That's how you feel. I'm not saying I'm doing all this stuff. I'm just saying that's the feeling. So I could, I could dig it. Anyway, point is when you're on this path, it's not always easy.

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  But psychological warfare is there to get you through those difficult parts, parts that you admit, or that you can admit that you need maybe a little, little push, little help, little spot. Waking up early, procrastinating, that's a big one.

• 1:57:55Speaker 01

  Skipping the workout, that kind of stuff, psychological warfare. Okay. So there's a track for every little weakness you might encounter. Skipping the diet or, or slacking on the diet. That's a good one. Um, but yeah, check that one out and, uh, you know, see what up. Good way to support yourself in your, on the path, when you're on the path and support the podcast as well.

• 1:58:14Jocko Willink?

  Also you can get some Jocko white tea, which tastes like victory and will make you feel really good. You can get that on Amazon. The books, Way of the Warrior Kid, number one, which we just covered. Obviously it is not just a book for kids.

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:31Jocko Willink?

  Uncle Jake has something to teach all of us, myself included. It's for adults and teenagers and anyone else that wants to.

• 1:58:39Jocko Willink?

  Have a better life.

• 1:58:40Speaker 01

  Can I add something about the way the warrior kid?

• 1:58:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:42Speaker 01

  Which and I I'm on a cycle. I just read it over and over again, like as just like a routine.

• 1:58:48Jocko Willink?

  To your daughter, yeah.

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's four and a half, so she can't quite read yet.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  But there's little things in there that it's like, this is really good that these kids are getting this this message. Because it's stuff that as an adult, you're like, dang, I never really, even though you know it, like, okay, and this is what it is. When you're like, how do you expect to be good at something if you don't practice?

• 1:59:10Jocko Willink?

  Like, little kids don't, little kids don't know that.

• 1:59:12Speaker 01

  They don't. They straight up don't.

• 1:59:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:15Speaker 01

  And

• 1:59:15Jocko Willink?

  You gotta practice.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  I feel like we've kind of forget that in a way.

• 1:59:18Jocko Willink?

  No, we absolutely do.

• 1:59:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:21Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, it's for sure. There's a lot in that book. And sometimes I read that book and I and there's even more in there than I even recognized. You know what I mean?

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:59:31Jocko Willink?

  Because the lessons that are coming out of my head, they're so important. They're like beyond my own comprehension.

• 1:59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:37Jocko Willink?

  And I was just explaining the book Way of the Warrior Kid Two, which is gonna come out. And I was I was just talking through a with a guy yesterday, like what what it's about. And as I'm explaining everything that it's about, it's a lot of stuff. And it's a lot of really important lessons.

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:59:54Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, it starts with Way of the Warrior Kid. The second Warrior Kid book will be out April 28, 2018. Actually, speaking of books, there is Extreme Ownership, a new edition. A new edition is out. It's not a totally new book. It's a new edition of it. It's gonna be available November 21. You can get it for preorder right now on Amazon if you want it. It's got a new foreword in it. So so Leif and I wrote a new foreword. It has some color pictures in it. Also, the new cover is black. We changed the cover from white to black. Why? Because black. It's dope. Yes, because it looks cooler, way cooler.

• 2:00:35Jocko Willink?

  Also, and this is interesting, there's a new Q and A section in the back of the book that is actually from this podcast. So, I kind of rounded up the most prominent leadership questions that, that, that we've answered on this podcast and wrote them up and kind of ed, had to edit them a little bit to make sure that they made sense without, without everything we talked about today, without the tone and the, the pacing of what's being said. So I had to edit them a little bit, but they're, they're, what, they're what the answers were given on this podcast and they're all from everyone's questions. So, everyone, appreciate the questions. Everyone that listens to the podcast, you helped us write this next section of this book. Echo Charles is in it as the question asker.

• 2:01:20Jocko Willink?

  So Echo Charles is in the book and I'll hold it up. If you're on YouTube, there's the new book right there. Boom. Discipline, or, or sorry, Extreme Ownership. Available November 21st. Also, you can get the book Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. It's a manual for getting after it. So, if you want to get after it, get, get the field manual. Discipline Equals Freedom. Thoughts and actions, they're both in there. It's been great, again, getting great feedback, appreciate everyone's feedback. It's a pretty straightforward book. No fluff involved. Not, not making you read a bunch of

• 2:02:04Jocko Willink?

  words to get to my point. Sure. Here's my point. Boom. You can get it anywhere that they, that they sell books, including obviously, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, you can get it at Walmart, by the way, Target, the publisher ship that out to everywhere. So, you can pick it up. It's a good book to give to people, in my opinion. It's, it's, it's not just like giving someone a book, you're giving them something a little bit more than a book. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like, it's like something a little bit more than a book. It's, I don't know if I can, I can't explain it too well right now. Look at it. Yeah, yeah, you can look at it. It's, it's not normal, I would say. It's not normal.

• 2:02:47Jocko Willink?

  If you want the audio version of that book, which a lot of people have been asking about, the audio version is available. It is not on Audible and it is not going to be on Audible. It is. Made and we put it together, Echo directed and produced the album that also has tracks. So it's an album with tracks and it's available as MP3 anywhere that you can get MP3 tracks for sale iTunes, Amazon Music, Music, Google Play, wherever, whatever MP3 platform you utilize, you can find it there. And if you like the leadership principles that we talk about on this podcast and you want to get them for your team or your business, we have a leadership

• 2:03:30Jocko Willink?

  and management consulting company. It's called Echelon Front. It's me, it's Leif Babin, it's JP Donnell, it's Dave Burke. You can email [email protected] or you can just check out the website, echelonfront.com. And if you have more questions, or you have answers to the questions that we covered that are better than the answers that we gave today and you want to share them with us, that'd be cool. I want to learn. You can find us, we're actually on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, on Dash Facey Boa Ha, Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And to close out, I want

• 2:04:16Jocko Willink?

  to say thanks to our military that's out there on the front lines. I recently got reports of ISIS in Iraq sending kids to, to surrender to coalition forces, but they'd been laden with suicide bombs and rigged to blow up. And as these kids would approach the areas set aside for surrender to American forces, they would, the Americans would see the terror in their eyes and realize that there was something wrong. And American military men, especially explosive ordinance disposal technicians would risk their lives time and

• 2:04:55Jocko Willink?

  time again to go disarm these bombs, risking their lives so that these young children can live.

• 2:05:06Jocko Willink?

  Who even does that?

• 2:05:09Jocko Willink?

  I'll tell you who. America's servicemen and women. They are the finest and we thank them for their service and sacrifice. And to police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, other first responders.

• 2:05:28Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for doing your job extremely difficult. Often thankless. Keeping us safe here on the home front and to everyone else that is listening.

• 2:05:43Jocko Willink?

  Remember this, if there's something in your life that you want to change, then change it. You have control and if you don't think you have control, then take control.

• 2:05:58Jocko Willink?

  Get a grip on your life.

• 2:06:03Jocko Willink?

  And start getting after it.

• 2:06:07Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.