Dr. Maya Shankar: Does Change Make You Feel Lost Or Uncertain? (Use THIS Framework To Find Direction Again and Use Change to Upgrade Your Life!)

We often think change will make sense once we get to the other side, but what if the real work of change is learning how to stay present in the uncertainty itself? Today, Jay sits down with cognitive scientist and author Dr. Maya Shankar to explore why unexpected change feels so threatening, and why losing what we thought our life would look like can feel like losing ourselves. From a career-ending injury early in her life to deeply personal losses later on, Maya reflects on how life’s unexpected turns can quietly reshape how we see ourselves, our worth, and our place in the world. Maya explains that one of the biggest mistakes we make during change is tying our self-worth to roles, titles, or outcomes. When those fall away, it can feel deeply destabilizing. Instead, she invites us to root our identity in something more stable: our “why.” The deeper reasons behind what we love—connection, service, growth, creativity. When we stay connected to those, we can move through change without losing ourselves. Jay reflects on how often we seek external validation and why redefining success during loss is essential for resilience. In this interview, you'll learn: How to Handle Change You Didn’t Choose How to Anchor Your Self-Worth Beyond External Success How to Find Your “Why” When Life Falls Apart How to Rebuild Yourself After a Dream Ends How to Grow into the Person Change Is Shaping You To Be If you’re going through a season of change right now, remember this: you’re not broken for struggling with it. Change is meant to shake us, to slow us down, and to make us question who we are beyond our titles, plans, and expectations. A quietly powerful read about resilience and reinvention by Maya Shankar, The Other Side of Change invites you to meet yourself again when life takes an unexpected turn - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/729180/the-other-side-of-change-by-maya-shankar/ With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty JAY’S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe here. Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 02:11 How Change Has Shaped Your Life 04:52 Why Does Change Feel So Scary? 11:45 Why We Tie Our Identity to What We Do 16:25 What Awaits on the Other Side of Change 24:47 Using Self-Affirmation to Stay Grounded 30:51 Finding Gratitude in Who You Become 39:31 Maya on Final Five Episode Resources: Maya Shankar | https://mayashankar.com/ Maya Shankar | https://www.instagram.com/drmayashankar Maya Shankar | https://x.com/slightchangepod A Slight Change of Plans | https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a-slight-change-of-plans/id1561860622 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 2:11Jay Shetty?

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• 2:22Speaker 01

  One of the biggest reasons why change is so scary is that it can threaten our self-identity. One way to have a more secure self-identity is to anchor yourself, not simply to what you do, but to why you do that thing.

• 2:36Jay Shetty?

  So first of all, I want to say I'm really grateful to be here with my very, very dear friend, Dr. Maya Shankar. We've been friends for like, maybe four, five years now. And honestly, beyond her incredible resume, incredible list of achievements, continued excellence in everything she does, she's just truly one of the sweetest, kindest, most wonderful humans. And so the fact that you've all come out here tonight to support her and hopefully get her book, or you've already got it. How many of you have already got the book? Okay, all of you who didn't put your hand up, I want you to get a book by the end of this. Truly, I'm just so grateful to be here.

• 3:19Jay Shetty?

  She is the kindest, most generous, sweet, loving, wonderful human being. And I'm so happy to be here supporting you. So congratulations, Maya.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, Jay. It is such an utter delight to be in conversation with you about this topic. And I'm so grateful for your friendship. So thank you.

• 3:40Jay Shetty?

  Thank you. Well, this book that you wrote, The Other Side of Change, I find it such a fascinating topic and read because I feel like there's two types of change. One is the change that you choose, and the other is the change that chooses you. How many of you like it when you decide to change?

• 4:04Jay Shetty?

  How many of you like it when change chooses you? Yeah, exactly. That's like the worst. It's like the worst feeling ever. It's like, what? Like, why did this happen right now? Like, you know, it's... And that's like a daily occurrence for anyone on planet Earth. Why did this happen now? Why did this happen to me? What's going on? When will this change? When will this get better?

• 4:29Jay Shetty?

  Talk to me about how change has drastically altered your life when you least expected it.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I should start by saying that the reason I study change is because I'm super scared of it and I'm really bad at it. And I hate the unexpected changes by and large that have come my way in life. I am someone who loves having a firm grip of the steering wheel, right? I like being in control. I like feeling like I'm going to dictate how my life turns out. It feels very comforting to believe that the world is fair and that if you do good, good things will happen. If you aren't good, bad things will happen. It's just a nice, clean input-output model. But of course, we all know that that is sadly not how the universe operates. And that fills me with a lot of discomfort, right?

• 5:21Speaker 01

  The uncertainty that fills change. And one of my favorite research studies from cognitive science shows that we are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of receiving an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance of getting that shock.

• 5:39Jay Shetty?

  Is that real?

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Yes, 100%.

• 5:41Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  And I feel that viscerally. I'm like, bring on the shocks. Just don't make me have to deal with that anticipatory anxiety that, you know, makes my skin crawl. I had a really formative experience with change when I was a little kid. I was an aspiring concert violinist and I was studying at Juilliard at the time under Itzhak Perlman, who is considered, you know, one of the best violinists in the world. And I really thought in that moment, you know, as a teenager, okay, I think I have what it takes. I think I might be able to go pro. And then I had my change of plans. A sudden injury that I sustained while playing

• 6:20Speaker 01

  the violin was a career-ending injury for me. And doctors just told me, I'm really sorry, but your dream is over. And that was my first kind of foray with this horrible change thing that I've learned to, you know, over time, I've learned to have a slightly more peaceful relationship with. But it was, it was pretty tough as a 15-year-old to lose a thing that, at that point, Jay, I had been doing for almost 10 years.

• 6:47Jay Shetty?

  How many of you have been rejected or failed in that way? Anyone? Yeah, it's the worst. Hearing that news, but especially because of something that you're struggling with injury-wise. I mean, it's not even like you didn't make it, or you weren't good enough, or you weren't smart enough. It was something totally out of your control to some degree. When things happen that are out of our control, is it even possible for the human mind to be able to tolerate, accept, and move through it smoothly? Is that like, is that, is that impossible? Is it possible? Is it made up? What's your take?

• 7:25Speaker 01

  Jay, you're the monk. You need to tell us. Why is he looking at me for answers?

• 7:30Jay Shetty?

  I've, I've, I've taken off any, God, I'm not a monk anymore, but I've taken off any sort of metaphorical ropes today to be the interviewer for you. So I have no answers. I'm just, I'm just humbly asking questions.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  I know, I was totally teasing. But that is to say, whatever piece you found, equanimity you found a change, just assume I found about, you know, one fraction, one very small fraction of that. It is a very hard thing for us as humans to reckon with the true limits of our control. But it also makes a lot of sense why our brains lead us to believe we are in control. Because if we didn't believe that we had a lot of control over our lives, you can imagine that we might descend into nihilism, right? We might just think, what's the point of anything? Why am I trying hard? Why am I doing good in the world? None of it really seems to matter because that lightning bolt can just strike me from above, and it was all for naught, right? And what's really interesting about the research is that it shows people who have,

• 8:28Speaker 01

  and this is called an internal locus of control, so they really strongly feel like they're dictating outcomes in their lives, they in general have higher well-being, greater happiness over time. The challenge, though, is that when that proverbial anvil drops from the sky, it shatters the illusion. And it ends up being a very tumultuous time. And in my own life, what I found when I lost the violin was that there was something so curious about my grief, which was that I didn't feel like I was just losing the instrument. I felt like I was losing a part of myself. Actually, I felt like I was losing all of myself. It felt like Maya and the violin were inextricably attached.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  And in taking it away from me, I no longer had as much value, right? It threatened my self-worth. It's only when you lose something that you realize how much it meant to you in the first place. I'm sure many of you can relate to this feeling. You're like, oh, my gosh, I didn't realize how much of my confidence was coming from the violin. Or, you know, as a kid who was bullied, right? As a little girl in elementary school, I'm like, oh, wow. Violin was a big part of my sense of social belonging, right? When I was at music school, which was international, all the kids accepted me. They didn't care about the color of my skin. In losing it, I realized, actually, one of the... And by the way, when I say I realize, I mean this, like, from my current vantage point as a 15-year-old. I was just cranky and annoying to my parents, like, why can't I do this thing I love?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  But in hindsight, I've now realized that one of the biggest reasons why change is so scary is that it can threaten our self-identity. And I've learned that... And I would urge all of you to engage in this thought experiment. One way to have a more secure self-identity is to anchor yourself, not simply to what you do, but to why you do that thing. So I asked myself, what did I love about the violin? Well, it turns out emotional connection was at the core of my love of the instrument. And just because I lost the violin didn't mean that I lost what led me to love it in the first place. I could still find that underlying feature in other places. I could still express that part of myself through other channels.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  And it turns out that, subconsciously, I've done that, right? As a podcaster, hosting a slight change of plans, writing the other side of change, all of these pursuits have been about forging deep emotional connections with people. Like, this is my bread and butter. Like, I love having this conversation, right? Like, this is what makes my attic, is deep emotional attachment to people and connection to people. And so, ask yourself, what is your why, right? Maybe it is service.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Maybe it is caring for people. Maybe it is getting better at something, improving at a craft. Maybe it is having a creative outlet, like we were talking about backstage. Whatever your why is, life can't take that away from you. That's something that's going to be a firm anchor. And it can guide you towards your next steps. It can be a soft landing when life makes other plans for you. And I've just felt so much more whole in the transitions and in the inflection points in my life, knowing that my why is still there.

• 11:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I love that. I was about to ask you how to do it, but I love that because I think it's so natural for us to place our confidence in who we're with, what we're doing, right? It's natural to evaluate our value in the world based on...

• 11:59Speaker 01

  I'm placing a little bit of my confidence hanging out with Jay Shetty tonight. I'm sorry, just gonna say, sorry, keep going.

• 12:07Jay Shetty?

  But it's true, right? We base our value on all of these external things. And it's fine when it's going good. We were just talking about that. It's fine when it's going good. The moment it doesn't work out, I was just speaking, I'm thinking of something. You've reminded me of someone. I was speaking to a lady who, I think it was like two weeks after her 40th birthday. And so I wished her a happy belated birthday. And she was a mutual friend of another friend. And she was telling me about, and I was like, oh, tell me about your birthday. Like 40, that's a big birthday. Like, what was the celebration like? And she said, and this is why I was reminded of it based on what Maya just said and why I think, you know, her book is the book I'm going to be giving to this lady straight after this conversation.

• 12:53Jay Shetty?

  She said to me, she goes, "Oh, my 40th birthday was a disaster." I said, "Why?" She said, "I lost my job two weeks before my 40th birthday." And I said, "That sounds terrible." And, you know, and I was asking her about how she lost it and whatever. And she goes, "I thought I was about to be promoted." So she was like, I thought I was about to be promoted. I lost my job. I had my fortieth birthday in two weeks where I was so excited to like announce my promotion and invite my work colleagues and talk about this incredible 20 year career that I'd had. And now I didn't have anything to talk about. She goes, I didn't have anything to talk about. I didn't feel like I'd achieved anything.

• 13:37Jay Shetty?

  Sure, I was in a relationship and whatever, like all this stuff, but like I didn't have something that made it feel like my life was going in the right direction. And you're spot on and whether we do it with our families, whether we do it through our children, whether we do it through our bank balance, whatever we do it through, we all find it through some external validation. And what you're reminding us to do is saying pull back and focus on why you love that thing. Why though, is it so hard to do that in the moment? And you're a cognitive scientist. So tell us what is going on in the brain when change is thrown on to you and you're like, but I don't like it, Maya. I don't want to think about why. I just wanted that promotion.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:22Jay Shetty?

  I just wanted that extra money. I wanted that validation and assurance. How do I do that?

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Well, I actually think we're socialized to anchor our self-worth and our identities to the what, to the roles and the labels that we carry. Think about the question we ask little kids. What do you want to be when you grow up? We don't ask, who do you want to be when you grow up? What are your passions? What do you love doing? It turns out from research, actually, looking back to your childhood is one of the easiest ways to access your why. You want to find out when you were on the playground, what were you gravitating towards? Were you like going crazy on the monkey bars? Or were you like me, like listening to what everyone was saying and trying to understand human psychology and social groups and, oh, is this person thinking this? Or is that, you know, that was me on the playground. It's like, okay, of course she was going to become a cognitive scientist. But that's actually one of the best ways of figuring out what that core passion is.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  And look, our self-worth is called contingent self-esteem. That naturally.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  We like to easily anchor to something because it almost feels uncomfortable to just anchor it to existence, which is what all of us should do at the end of the day. Like, by virtue of just existing, we should be worthy. But as humans, we are getting signals from everywhere that we need to justify our existence. We need to justify our presence. And it's so interesting because I think someone reached out to me, this guy named Scott, he was a human rights lawyer, Harvard-trained, Rhodes Scholar, super-accomplished, so many accolades. To your point about getting that external validation, that was what he was getting most of his life as he went through his career trajectory. And then he got hit

• 15:58Speaker 01

  with terrible long COVID, totally incapacitated. So he was suffering from severe brain fog. He was unable to even read a sentence of a book for the longest time. He was experiencing nausea, terrible, terrible symptoms, and so bad that he had to take permanent leave from his work as a human rights lawyer. He had listened to my TED Talk, and I had talked about this what versus why distinction, and I heard from him, he couldn't type, so he sent me a voice memo, I remember, and I was listening on my phone. He said, "I asked myself what my why was, and it was advocating for underrepresented people, people who don't have a voice. And so then I asked myself, with my newly constrained life that I live,

• 16:43Speaker 01

  how can I still express that why?" And he realized he still could by advocating for the long-hauler community.

• 16:50Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  And so now, he devotes all of the hours of his day where he feels cognitively capable to advocating for various legislation, talking to drug manufacturers, giving a voice to all these humans whose lives have been upturned by long COVID, who otherwise wouldn't feel represented. And I think that is such a beautiful illustration of my hope with this insight.

• 17:14Jay Shetty?

  Mm-hmm. I love that. How many of you are going to start trying that after today? Right, and we gotta give it a go. We gotta give it a go. You know, I always feel like there's so much good advice out there now. And it's like Maya's book is packed with these incredible insights. I'm like, the biggest mistake we can make is go, that's a really cool idea. And then it just goes over our head. It's like that ability to stop and pause and say, wow, like Maya's just repeated this idea like three times because of how powerful it is. And given us multiple examples, whether it's a real life story, whether it's cognitive neuroscience, whether it's looking at it from a practical point of view, and it makes sense. And so I encourage each and every one of you, when you walk out of here, try and try and apply it to a real life situation.

• 18:04Jay Shetty?

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• 18:47Jay Shetty?

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• 20:43Jay Shetty?

  I was also reflecting that when I think about all the people I look up to.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:48Jay Shetty?

  They all reacted incredibly well to bad circumstances. So anyone that I admire or I'm inspired by, and this could be a family member. It could be a public figure. It could be anyone in your life, right? It doesn't have to be someone well known. Anyone that I look up to had something horrific happen to them. And they somehow turned it into the best thing that ever happened to them.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:15Jay Shetty?

  And when you study people's lives closely, and I'm sure people have that in their families. I'm sure if you think about your parents and aunts and uncles, or you think about ancestors who just did incredible things that we don't even know how they lived through times like that. It it doesn't, what's the difference between someone who has something bad happen to them and transforms into a superpower?

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:36Jay Shetty?

  And someone who has something bad happen to them and doesn't have that ability, like, what's the difference? Because I think we all feel both of those things. I've had terrible things happen to me and there've been times where I'm like, all right, time to throw in the towel, it's all over, forget about it. And then there's times when tough stuff happens and I'm able to turn it into a superpower. What's the difference?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I have really good news for you because as someone who started off being very bad at responding to these negative events and who I think has made incredible progress. This is a malleable trait in us and I think the difference is in perspective. So I'll say a couple of things. The first is, we have this funny little trick our brains play on us when it comes to how we think about who will be moving forward. So it's called the end of history illusion. And basically what we, what it says is, while we fully acknowledge that we've changed considerably in the past. So if you were to show me pictures of violinist, like eight-year-old violinist Maya, teenager, oh, gosh, cringe, teenager Maya.

• 22:37Jay Shetty?

  Wait, we have, we have those pictures.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, actually, right now. I thought we were friends, Jay. And then, you know, twenty-something, I'll say, I would say, oh, my gosh, I am so different from that person. Do not even show me like, I'm gonna try to create as much emotional distance as I can between, you know, current Maya and past Maya. But then, funnily enough, if you were to ask me, well, how much do you plan on changing moving forward? I'll be like, nope, finished product. What you see is what you get. This is it. And researchers have said that we falsely believe that the present is this watershed moment in which we become the person we will be for the rest of our lives. And again, it is just this funny little quirk in the way that our brains have evolved. And the reason that this is relevant to change

• 23:23Speaker 01

  is that we become different people on the other side of change. The title's not an accident. The other side of change.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  When a big change happens to us, it also leads to lasting change within us. And these big seismic anvil falling from the sky moments, they accelerate those internal transformations. We come out the other side with new values and new perspectives and new capabilities, new ways of seeing the world around us and ourselves, or maybe our family, or maybe our family history, or maybe the shame we felt about some part of our childhood. Whatever it is, it is possible for us to emerge a new person. And so, the difference that I've come to see, even in myself, is now when I'm feeling daunted at the outset of a change, and my old reflexes kick in and I think, "Oh, I can't possibly handle what's up ahead.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  I'm not strong enough. I don't have the right resources around me. I don't have the right vantage point. I don't have the right values," whatever it is. I now think the Maya that's actually gonna have to engage with every part of this process is actually gonna be different from the person she is today. And that is so empowering. Like, when you're feeling daunted at the outset of change, just know, and I know people in this room who have undergone incredible transformations as a result of the changes they went through. They would never have been able to predict who they would have become. And we know also from research, we are bad affective forecasters. We're really bad at predicting how we will think and feel about events in the future.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  And so, that, I think, is the sole trait that people have who are really resilient. They understand that they too are changing as a result of their circumstances, and they are introspective throughout. They think, "Okay, I'm noticing this change has revealed to me that I have a certain value or belief. Is this holding me back? Is it problematic? Maybe this change is giving me a rare opportunity to revisit that belief. I shouldn't hold it as sacred. I should interrogate it." And so, it's been uplifting. And I, even in writing the book, saw this transformation within me as I was undergoing an unexpected change in my personal life that I write about in the final chapter. And so, I fully believe it now, you know, having seen it happen within myself.

• 25:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and you were telling me that just before you walked on, and not to get into details, but you were telling me that you've literally been reading your own book

• 25:48Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, yes.

• 25:49Jay Shetty?

  during new change that's happening while

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Not because I'm a narcissist, but because

• 25:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I should have.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Just gotta get that work again.

• 25:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I see how that came out now.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  And then I listened to my podcast. No, I'm just kidding.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  I'll tell you why I was reading my book. The last month of my life was awful. There were unexpected challenges in my family when it came to health. And just one example, I don't want to get too emotional, is that my beloved aunt, her stage four cancer returned for a third time, which is just very sad, right? I don't know what's gonna happen, and I love her dearly. And as a person who had been writing this book about unexpected change for three and a half years, I think I was engaging in magical thinking, Jay. I was like, alright, I did the change thing. Like, I had the formative experience in childhood. And as I was writing the book, I was struggling to start a family with my husband. That was my second big change.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  And like, just gonna wipe my hands clean. Change over, you know? And then change was thrown my way. And it was so hard and so destabilizing. And I just remember thinking in that moment, you have gained so much wisdom from the people who invited you into their lives for years. Like, for this book, I interviewed people on repeated occasions over multiple years just to understand so deeply their psyche and their life story. And I was like, what a shame it would be if you do not benefit from that wisdom in this moment. If you don't use those same science-based strategies you're telling everyone else to use. I didn't want to just talk the talk. I wanted to walk the walk.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  And so, I still remember this one night. I was sitting in my living room, and my husband Jimmy and I were just spiraling. We were doing the thing everyone does in the face of uncertain change. We were starting to catastrophize. Our anxiety was rising, and we could feel it in our bodies. Our hearts were racing, and everything was looking negative. And I remember I pulled out, there's one chapter of the book I devote entirely to rumination. Separate note, I have a PhD in rumination. Not an academic, not an academic version, but the lived version. I am very skilled in waking up in the middle of the night and thinking about things, you know, till they drive me crazy. And I just remember reading some of these words that I'd written because they hit me even more in that moment when I feel I needed them most.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  And I was able to actually... Effectively use these strategies and they helped me in a time of need. And I, it was such a trying time. I was like, how am I going to get the energy to like do this book tour? But I turned the ship around, folks. I did, and I'm here with you right now and I'm so full of joy. And I think one of the reasons why you're seeing, oh, that's so sweet.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  One of the reasons, I was talking about this with Jay beforehand, that you are seeing me filled with so much joy is that, one, first of all, health stuff just puts everything into perspective. It just right sizes every small or big problem that you're, sorry, let me just say this differently. I'm getting emotional. Health challenges put everything into perspective immediately. And so I instantly had clarity about what this book tour was all about. And it was that I had written a book for people who are struggling with exactly what I was struggling with for the last three weeks. And it renewed my faith in the importance of storytelling, in the importance of distilling science in ways that are easy for people to understand.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  And for just connecting with my fellow human beings. And there's been so much healing that's happened, even in just this past week, meeting people from all over the country, right? A woman came up to me and said, you know, she looked to be about in her late 30s. She was diagnosed with early onset Parkinson's. So she was dealing with that. And another person had been in a terrible car crash and she was dealing with the repercussions of that. And it's just, it's just really touched my heart to be in conversation with people going through this stuff.

• 29:53Jay Shetty?

  So beautiful. Honestly, as I'm listening to you and I'm so glad that you did share that. I didn't know if you were going to, but I'm glad you did because I don't think there's any better test of doing the work than doing it when it's happening right now.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:08Jay Shetty?

  And for those of us that share insight or share research or give advice or help people through things, it's only when you're going through that exact same thing yourself that the advice either stands true or it doesn't.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  I'm so glad you said that because I want to share an example of a time when I didn't want to do the work. And I ended up doing it and it really paid off. Okay. So, long story short, for years and years and years, my husband and I were on this journey to start a family. And we experienced so many obstacles and disappointments and heartbreaks over the years and a miscarriage with our surrogate. And about a year and a half later, we were just over the moon because we found out that we were going to be having identical twin girls. And we were, we were just so happy, like, oh, my gosh, how amazing that this has now happened. It's like a blessing, given the first pregnancy loss. And we saw two healthy beating hearts. And then five hours later, we found out that our surrogate had miscarried again.

• 31:08Speaker 01

  And it was to go from such a high high to such a low low within just a couple hours was so jarring for my nervous system. I was like, I remember telling my husband Jimmy, I'm like, we need to leave our apartment. Like, I just need to get fresh air. I don't know how to tolerate sort of the emotional complexity of this moment and all that I was grieving. You know, we talked about identity loss, right? Being a mom was one of the earliest identities that I ever aspired to have. And society always told me that in order to be a full person, I needed to have kids. And for that reason, I felt like it was a massive threat to hear about this, this loss.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  And I remember getting into bed early that night, putting the covers over me and just feeling really, really sad. And my husband Jimmy comes in, bless him, he goes, Mai, Mai is his pet name for me. Let's name five things we're really grateful for.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  And I'm like, oh, hell, no, bro. You take your Instagram BS, you go into the corner and your toxic positivity, there is no space for that in our bedroom right now. And I was so ticked off, Jay, I was like, I'm not doing this, this is so annoying. But there was something so sweet and innocent about Jimmy's like request. And I also thought, okay, also, if I do this, maybe I'll just get him off my back, let me just do this thing. Now, mind you, Jimmy's a software engineer, so what he did not know is that he was engaging me in that moment in what's called a self affirmation exercise. Really fun to be married to a cognitive scientist, let me tell you. A self-affirmation exercise is when you articulate all the things that bring your life

• 32:53Speaker 01

  value and meaning that are not being threatened by the change you're going through. So if you're in a tough spot in your relationship, you might focus on your spiritual life. If you're having a rough go of it at work, you might focus on how meaningful your community is to you. What the affirmation exercise does is that it contextualizes what you're going through, and it actually reduces things like denial. Because when you feel like, when you don't feel like your whole identity is under threat from this change, you can embrace the news more easily and actually start to cope with it. It also leads to greater resilience, less anxiety. There's all sorts of well-being outcomes associated with a self-affirmation exercise. So anyway, Jimmy comes in and he asked me to do this thing. And I'm like, I'm like stubbornly like, okay, fine.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  And, you know, the first item on my list, I was like, okay, well, I'm really grateful for you.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Like, you know, here the love of my life, and you're so wonderful. But then this, this list just flowed out of me. I'm so grateful to be an aunt to my six nieces and nephews. What a joy that I get to go into the closet of our apartment and talk to people all over the world about their incredible stories of change. Like, never in my, it was not on my bingo card that I, that this was ever going to get to be my life, that I got to interview people and be interviewed by people, where you have such incredibly edifying conversations. I love my workouts with my Zoom trainer. Like, we talk about The Bachelor, and Love is Blind, and it's just so much fun to gossip about all this stuff, and it like feeds a different part of my soul. I always say, celebrity gossip is my love language.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  And, and then I'm like, I'm grateful for the California sun. And it, it just, it was like effortless. It just started to flow out of me, and I swear to God, something magical happened in that moment. I had been so single-mindedly focused on achieving this goal of mine. And I'm sure a lot of you can relate to this. We set our minds on something and we developed tunnel vision. We're like, until I get this outcome, like, nothing can rest. That I had lost perspective on how otherwise rich and multi-dimensional my life was. I had forgotten that, yes, I was in pursuit of motherhood, but there was still so much else that defined me. There was still so much that made me a valuable human

• 35:12Speaker 01

  and were sources of joy in my life. And there was so much to be grateful for. And so, did I go to bed overjoyed that night? Of course not. But did I go to bed feeling more whole? Yes, I did. And I'm so grateful that I forced myself in that moment to do the uncomfortable thing because it really helped me in the longer term.

• 35:36Jay Shetty?

  And Jimmy slept on the couch.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then we hired the divorce lawyer, so I'm just kidding.

• 35:42Jay Shetty?

  That is, yeah, good old Jimmy. That's good for Jimmy. Even for Jimmy to have the, like, courage to even say that to you in that moment. I was like, oh, God, I was scared for him.

• 36:01Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Amtrak. You know that feeling when you're already tired and you haven't even gotten there yet? That's where Amtrak comes in. Leave the driving behind and settle into a comfortable seat with plenty of room to stretch out. Catch up on work with Wi-Fi, grab a snack at the cafe car, or just sit back and enjoy your favorite podcast. Choose a seller or Northeast Regional and get there without the stress of getting there. Visit amtrak.com to plan your next trip.

• 36:32Speaker 02

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• 37:01Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market, who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980. That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colors, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online.

• 37:44Jay Shetty?

  I feel like I just learned this yesterday. And so if I sound, if you, if you hear this and you go, Jay, I've heard that a million times, then I'm glad you learned it quicker than I did. I literally learned this like two weeks ago. I was in India back at the monastery that I used to live at. And I was sharing something I thought I'd learned with my teacher. And he has this really remarkable way of teaching me back without making me feel like I'm stupid. But it's kind of like, yeah, you're stupid. You got that wrong. And, and you've, you've just given me the science to back up what he was saying to me. So up until like, two weeks ago, I thought you had to somehow figure out how to be grateful for what happened to you.

• 38:27Jay Shetty?

  We always hear that, be grateful for what happened. You know, the curse becomes a gift and the nightmare becomes the dream. And you know, like be grateful for what happened to you. And I've always felt that you just had to somehow figure that out through like raw tolerance, beating your head over, you know, whatever it took. Like you just had to figure out a way. And if you were deep enough and if you were profound enough, then one day you could be grateful for like terrible things happening to you. And I felt like that's what it meant to have like, you know, God's childlike level forgiveness and level of acceptance. And he just said this to me, he goes, I was saying that to him. I was like, yeah, I really believe that, you know, one day I'll be really grateful for this and I'll be grateful for what happened to me.

• 39:10Jay Shetty?

  And he said, he said, you don't have to be grateful for what happens to you. You have to be grateful for what you have after what happens to you. And it was just this subtle, tiny change that completely freed me of this pressure that I'd put myself under. As if you had to be grateful for not being able to have children or you had to be grateful for having an injury when you wanted to be a violinist as a kid. It's like, no, you don't have to be grateful for that.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 39:39Jay Shetty?

  That you could, you could pretend to maybe for a day. But you know, you've just freed us as well by giving us the science behind. And that's why I love your work so much because you have this profound ability to take wisdom, have the science to back it up, the resets to back it up, and then make it sound so simple, even though you're so much smarter than all of us.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 39:57Jay Shetty?

  You know, make it sound so, and that's what you do so brilliantly in this book. It's like, we're like, wow, like you're actually speaking to us and speaking to our hearts and speaking our language. And I guess you had all this time to practice on software engineer, Jimmy. So, you know, you've, you've had a getting thing.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  I was sorry.

• 40:13Jay Shetty?

  Oh, no, go on, no, go on.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, just to follow into what you said, I, I think that's so spot on. And the people that I interviewed for The Other Side of Change by and large. Aren't happy that they had to go through what they went through. They would not will their changes over again. Who would? Who would invite illness into their lives and a heartbreak and loss? I mean, that would be kind of strange. But they are extremely grateful, all of them, for the person they became as a result of the change they went through. And I feel like that's perfectly echoed by this teacher of yours. They feel like they emerged with renewed confidence, a renewed relationship with their family, a new sense of what was important, a new perspective on their self-worth and

• 41:00Speaker 01

  where to actually anchor it, a new way of seeing attachment and their closest relationships. That's the part they're grateful for. And I love the honesty of that because I often say, like, I'm allergic to two things, soy and platitudes. I'm always skeptical when people talk about silver linings and whatnot. I'm like, really? Are you sure? Is that just something you tell yourself because it makes you feel better? Where's the science to back it up? You know? And so it's so interesting because I was seeing, I went into, by the way, writing The Other Side of Change, pretty agnostic as to what I would find. I identified people from all over the world that I just found fascinating, and I interviewed them for a bunch of years.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  And I didn't know what lessons I would learn. I didn't know what their stories would reveal, which was an incredibly delightful process of exploration, by the way. It was like me, like Maya, the cognitive scientist in a candy shop, literally. I started to see this incredibly hopeful message emerge about change, right? Which was that people were grateful for the internal transformation they went through. And I really felt this deeply, and I was alluding to this before, when I was writing the final chapter of the book unexpectedly about my own experience on this parent or trying to be a parent journey. And I realized something really important. So

• 42:26Speaker 01

  I had very slowly and very subconsciously been on my own internal evolution and transformation on this topic. If you had asked me on that night when Jimmy asked me that incredibly annoying question, "Is anything good ever going to come of this?", I would have said, "No." "Will you ever feel whole as a person if you don't have kids?" "Oh, definitely not." "Will your life have enough color without kids?" "Oh, my gosh, absolutely." All of those questions I would have said, "No" to. And yet, here I am, three years out, and I am child-free today, and you are seeing the happiest, most joyful, most curious, most hopeful version of Maya that has ever

• 43:11Speaker 01

  existed. And I could never have seen that coming because I... Thank you. My dream was cut short, you know? And you don't always anticipate that when a dream is cut short, you'll still be grateful for what happened on the other side, exactly to your point. And so witnessing that within me was very moving and very wildly unexpected. I realize, by the way, so one of the chapters in The Other Side of Change is about a woman who has to revisit her relationship with her family history. It actually comes about through a bout of amnesia. It's like one of the most fascinating tales I've come across. And the idea of that chapter is it shows change can actually serve as an important

• 43:56Speaker 01

  moment of revelation for all of us. So when a really negative thing happens in our lives, we can often think of it as a personal apocalypse of sorts. The world that we once knew, that was so familiar and so comforting to us, so comfortable as well, is no longer available. And interestingly, the word apocalypse comes from the Greek word "apokalypsis", which means revelation. And so the etymology is really instructive. Change can upend us, yes, but it can also reveal things to us. And as I was going on this journey of figuring out my own relationship with motherhood and parenthood, I realized...

• 44:35Speaker 01

  I did have quite antiquated views that were fed to me maybe through my Indian American upbringing, right, through cultural forces, through pop culture, through society, through the very special stigma reserved for child free women, that a woman's value was something that was firmly attached to whether she had kids, whether she has kids. I mean, it's a stigma that still very much exists today. And part of my process, because I talk in the book about how we cannot view our beliefs and ideas as these sacred immutable truths that ought to never be examined. Most of our beliefs, most of the ideas we have about the world were inherited subconsciously. They were through, they were in our childhood from caregivers and we had so much of our

• 45:19Speaker 01

  love wrapped up in that caregiver that to challenge them, to question them, would have been quite dangerous, emotionally dangerous for us. Or we learned them from a teacher that we so greatly admired and because we were more of a black and white thinker, we couldn't see that there might be nuance. Or we learned it from watching TV or we learned it through who becomes famous or not famous. And all of those ideas are worth unwinding and unpacking. And change can give us this powerful moment where we take a step back and think, wow, is this point of view worth revisiting? And so I credit Ingrid, this woman's story, for giving me the courage I needed to question some of these assumptions and to now feel like, of course, I'm like a whole woman in her, you know, without kids, like, how could I have ever thought that?

• 46:04Speaker 01

  It seems preposterous now. But we all grow up with these self limiting beliefs. And so I believe in the power of change to help unearth what they are and then give us a chance to question them.

• 46:14Jay Shetty?

  Well said, well said. Maya, we're running out of time, but I want to end with a little quick fire about change.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Okay, I'll try my best.

• 46:28Jay Shetty?

  Because I think we always end every episode of my podcast with a quick fire, but you've already done that before because you came on the show four years ago.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  I'm not piffy though, so you can tell.

• 46:37Jay Shetty?

  You've answered those questions, so I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you a new set of questions. So these questions have to be answered in one sentence.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:44Jay Shetty?

  All right. So the first question is, what is the first change people should choose after tonight?

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Being present when they are with other people.

• 46:56Jay Shetty?

  That's a great answer. Very good. All right.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Put your phone away. It's okay. Because that really...

• 47:01Jay Shetty?

  Not right now. Keep filming so that... So that more people get the book.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  And I'm not allowed to go on, but just know that that is also evidence-based.

• 47:12Jay Shetty?

  Go ahead. Do you want to tell us the evidence?

• 47:14Speaker 01

  No, no, it's okay. It's okay. Let's do it lightly.

• 47:16Jay Shetty?

  All right. Okay, okay. Second question.

• 47:20Jay Shetty?

  The change that you're happiest you made in the last 12 months?

• 47:23Speaker 01

  To care less what people I don't respect think of me.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  That's a really hard one. I'm still working on it. I'm like, wait, but I just want... Can't we just all feel love for one another? It's like such a naive point of view, but I'm like, I just want people to love each other. And then it's just, yeah, and then, you know, not looking at comments on the internet, so...

• 47:48Jay Shetty?

  Question number three. Something you're trying to change this year.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  I am an extremely impatient person. Can I have a few more sentences, Jay? Come on.

• 48:00Jay Shetty?

  You've been doing it for all of them without permission, so I don't know why... I don't know why you're asking now, but go on.

• 48:05Speaker 01

  I'm extremely impatient. I, for so long, hated this part of my personality, though I think one thing that's really helpful for everyone is to remember there's always two sides to the coin on personality traits. So my impatience has also really helped me in my work in the White House and my work, you know, at various places, like that impatience propels me to try to get stuff done. So I try not to resent it too much. But I think it would be really good for my overall well-being if I just, like, took a beat. So when my, you know, if my boss sends me a message on like a Friday afternoon that's like, "Hey, period, don't freak out. You can wait till Monday. It's gonna be okay." Whereas I tend to kind of like need resolution as quickly as possible.

• 48:46Jay Shetty?

  That's... I think we can all relate to that one.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just want closure.

• 48:50Jay Shetty?

  The smallest change that someone can make in their relationships?

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Try not to impose your mental frame, your way of seeing the world, onto the other person. So before you talk at them, deeply listen to them, and then you will be able to find common ground.

• 49:11Jay Shetty?

  Great answers. Wow, you're like...

• 49:13Speaker 01

  I'm trying to be picky.

• 49:14Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, this is really good. This is the final question I want to ask you.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 49:17Jay Shetty?

  And this one, go on. You can go on on it, because I really want to understand it. Do you believe that if we chose more change, we'd be better at dealing with change?

• 49:29Speaker 01

  I love that question so much. So the previous stop of this book tour was in San Francisco. And Michael Lewis was moderating the conversation, so the author and journalist. And someone in the audience asked a question, actually, about the uncertainty around AI. And as a mom, she was thinking, what do I tell my kid, right? So that they learn to embrace change? Because that's actually kind of what you're asking, right? How can we take strategic steps to embrace change more? And he gave a fantastic piece of advice. He said, "Take an improv comedy class. Get yourself off balance. That's really the kind of change that's really healthy for us, is to go outside of our comfort zone, to test ourselves,

• 50:14Speaker 01

  and to be in almost this perpetual state of unease, because that's when we flex all these muscles, all these abilities that we had that may have been laying dormant, because we were always choosing what was comfortable. And we get to see them on display and think, oh, wow, like, maybe I am a little bit more resilient than I thought. And I think it's so great for us to introduce change in the form of challenge. When we learn a new skill, for example. So you interviewed Chris Hemsworth for your podcast, and I was his brain coach on this show called Limitless. And I was so inspired by his attitude. You know, this guy is like

• 50:59Speaker 01

  one of the most famous actors in the world. He could just sit back and relax. And he was telling this audience at the London premiere... I think we all need to be a little bit more uncomfortable. He's like, I seek out discomfort wherever I can. He's like, you know, with these Nest thermostats to adapt that adapt to the ideal temperature and smart white, like, everything's meant to be customized so that it brings ease into our lives. And Chris was saying, I feel like that's the only vehicle for growth is to be in these uncertain, uncomfortable situations. That's the only way. The episode was all about flexing our brain's capacity for plasticity, right? And building cognitive reserve so that as we age, we feel the impact less. Again, I was just so inspired to hear him say that because, again, he could just kick back and be like, okay, I'm good.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  And instead, you know, for our episode, he learned the drums and played with Ed Sheeran in front of 70,000 people. So we don't have to do that version. I'm not doing that version. My smaller commitment to introduce a little bit of change into my life was repicking up learning Mandarin. So my husband's Chinese American and his relatives don't speak English. And I took a brief hiatus, namely, three and a half years while I wrote this book, where I stopped taking those lessons and I'm now committing to starting again in 2026.

• 52:13Jay Shetty?

  Well, Maya, I'm so happy that you took that brief hiatus and put together this amazing book, The Other Side of Change. As I said, when you pick up this book today, you're not picking up just a book, you're picking up interviews, research, hundreds and thousands of hours of other people's stories, lived experience, ups and downs, challenges, breakthroughs, discomfort, and you get to invite that all into your life. And as someone who grew up as an avid reader of nonfiction and true stories, I think what Maya's put together in this incredible book is an invitation to all of us to study the

• 52:54Jay Shetty?

  lives of people just like us who have walked the path of challenges that we either have in our life right now or may have in the future and gain probably the most important skill humans could potentially ever develop. Which is dealing with change. There's probably no, if there's one skill you dedicate 2026 to, it should probably be dealing with change. There is no more important skill, not Mandarin, sorry. No, not anything else. It's dealing with change. And so this book is dedicated to that. Maya's dedicated three and a half years. And the people that are in the book have spent decades living it through.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, totally.

• 53:33Jay Shetty?

  And so from the bottom of my heart, I hope you'll grab a copy. Maya, I'm so proud of you.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 53:38Jay Shetty?

  And grateful for just how you walk through life. And even just your expertise and all the answers you gave today was just second to none. It was unbelievable to learn from you and listen to you. I'm always humbled when I'm around you.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you so much.

• 53:52Jay Shetty?

  And I'm so grateful that you let me support you. I'm going to let everyone ask you all their amazing questions now that I'm sure they're dying to ask you. And thank you again for letting me be a part of this. Give it up for Maya, everyone.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 54:05Jay Shetty?

  If you loved this episode, you will enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change your life by changing your brain.

• 54:12Speaker 03

  If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain. You know, I've had the blessing or the curse to scan over a thousand convicted felons and over a hundred murderers, and their brains are very damaged.

• 54:30Speaker 04

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon Fall Drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's Fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 55:00Speaker 05

  Mr. President, my company formed me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 55:16Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 55:20Speaker 05

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 55:24Speaker 03

  I'm not the first nanny.

• 55:25Speaker 05

  Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not a minute without parent.

• 55:30Speaker 06

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 55:32Speaker 03

  Kink's wine cinnamon swirl bite?

• 55:33Speaker 06

  Uh, Taylor Hanson? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

• 55:39Speaker 05

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 55:40Speaker 06

  But Taylor Hanson's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.

• 55:45Speaker 05

  Taylor Hanson? Nice. Try one. Mmm.

• 55:52Speaker 05

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.