ETH ETF Officially Approved! | James Seyffart

✨Mint the episode on Zora✨ https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/3 The Ether spot ETF has officially been approved marking a landmark day for Ethereum and crypto as a whole. We're going live today to discuss the extent of this approval and what it means for Ether the asset, and more broadly the entire crypto industry. This is a big deal and we're stoked to be sharing this moment live with the Bankless Nation. James on X: https://x.com/JSeyff ------ 📣 SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24 https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2 ⁠ 🔗CELO | CEL2 COMING SOON https://bankless.cc/Celo ⚖️ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM ⁠https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum https://%E2%81%A0https//bankless.cc/Arbitrum 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle 🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT SOLUTION https://bankless.cc/toku 🌐 CARTESI | APPLY FOR A GRANT https://bankless.cc/CartesiGovernance ------ TIMESTAMPS & RESOURCES 00:00 It Happened 05:09 ETF Approved! 07:24 Boom Approval Surprise 09:11 Why Did This Happen? 13:38 When Will The ETFs Go Live? 15:47 ETF Inflows 19:18 ETH Education Campaign 21:37 Staked ETF? 24:14 What Coin is Next? ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures⁠

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bankless Nation, we've got a breaking livestream. We've got James Safrat over here. He's an analyst at Bloomberg. He's an ETF expert and we just got some incredible news, exciting news, I think, for the crypto community. James, what just happened?

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the SEC came out and just accelerated and approved every ETH filing that got in their 19 before. So this is a 19 before order. And what that really is, it's a rule change proposal. Basically, all these exchanges, they had to do this with the Bitcoin ETFs too. You have to basically submit these filings and ask the SEC to change a rule. In this case, the rule is we want to trade Ethereum ETFs. In the case of Bitcoin, it was we want to trade Bitcoin ETFs. And the SEC has to go through and basically say this is allowed. So this is the first step. There's two, two main steps before these things can begin trading. And this is number one.

• 0:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  So this is the number one. It's also the big one, right? Because it's the thing that has been that SEC has been reluctant to say. So that's the 19B. I think we've got some of the issuers on the screen, but I think there's maybe more. You mentioned, did you say 17, 19, something like this? We've got a number of them on the screen.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  No, no, no, that's all of them, plus the grayscale mini, but actually hashtags didn't, didn't submit a 19 before. So they're not actually going to launch one. It doesn't look like.

• 1:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so are there more issuers, fewer issuers, or is this pretty much similar to the issuers for the Bitcoin ETF?

• 1:25Speaker 01

  There are less issuers here. And especially if you take into account, so right, if you include grayscale. So grayscale, everyone's been talking about that Bitcoin mini trust. I'm not sure if you guys are familiar, but especially they're, they're spinning out 10 or 15% of GBDC into the smaller ETF. It's called a grayscale mini Bitcoin trust.

• 1:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like low fees and such, right?

• 1:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. We don't know exactly the fee. I think they, I think people are saying it's going to be 15 basis points. It's going to be the lowest fee. They're doing the same thing with ETH and they filed that in here. So that's also going to launch at some point in the near future. But essentially grayscale is going to launch two of these things. I don't know if the ETH mini trust is going to be included. I haven't had a chance to really dive deep into this filing since it just dropped, but I've skimmed through it. There, there's a lot here to go through. There's 23 pages, so. As soon as we get off of this, I'm going to basically have to dive into that.

• 2:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so when you say boom approved, you're talking about all of those filings were just approved all at once. I think this is, this is pretty crazy because of the setup here, which is it was like Friday of last week. It looked like none of this stuff was going to be approved, right? Like you didn't see any movement on your side as you're going through the paperwork and stuff. Here's a tweet from Friday, which is, it's just not happening, guys, sorry. And I think you tweeted that James, because like it didn't look like it was happening. I guess the broadest of questions here, did the SEC just do like a 180 on this? Or like, what is going on? How did we get from here, it's not happening, there's no signs of movement to Monday, suddenly? It was, I think either you or Eric Balchunas had tweeted this out where, yeah, your probability of approval

• 3:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  just shot up to 75% on Monday, when like on Friday, it was like near, near zero.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so early afternoon, we started hearing rumblings and we were like, this can't be true, can it? Like, can this actually be happening? And like, we were scrambling. So we know people that are like somewhat in the process. Some people are like outside, but kind of know what's going on. We have a lot of people we talk to in this space. Obviously, there's a lot of signs and tea leaves we read, but we also have sources that we're talking to to try to make sure we're getting this stuff right. And we had one or two people tell us, yeah, something's happening. And then we got more and more people be like, yeah, this is insane. I can't believe this is happening. And that was Monday afternoon. And that's when, so Eric and I actually were on the phone for like 30 minutes going over like fine tooth comb about exactly what wanted to tweet because we knew it was going to be market moving. We actually offered it to Bloomberg News and, and they didn't want to put it out there yet, so.

• 3:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Because they, because it seemed so tenuous, it seemed so odd, it seemed so last minute?

• 3:53Speaker 01

  But we trusted our sources. And obviously, we were, we were very, we didn't think it was going to happen, as you see. I tweeted that on Friday, life comes at you fast, but.

• 4:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  What explains this?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  It's the political winds. It has to be like people are trying to say this was always the case like that is not what happened here. This is a complete shift. From what I understand, specifically the division that approves those 19 B fours is they're called the Division of Trading and Markets. They're they're mainly worried about fair, efficient, orderly markets. Like, that's what their whole thing is. And with these 19 before is they want to make sure there's no fraud, manipulation, things like that. So these ETFs, these products can't like help other people commit fraud and manipulation, or get stuck with other people doing fraud and manipulation. That's what most this is about. That division from what we're here didn't like know about this until late last week. Like, they were under the assumption they were denying. So like, it's not like the SEC knew this was going to happen all the time. We've I've based on everyone I'm talking to, this is a complete political shift. And if you just look at everything else

• 4:50Speaker 01

  that has happened here, like you look at some of the polling for the elections, you look at the SAB 121 votes in the House, and then the Senate, and then you look at what happened today with the FIT 21 Act, which is a market structure bill for for crypto. Trump saying he's pro crypto here. And like, there's so many things that point to like, the Dems basically decided like, we can't go this way. So I'll be interested to see at some point, we'll get there was probably a vote on this. So basically-

• 5:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  The last last vote was like, three to two, right? And Gensler was the kind of a breaking tie vote. Because what is it? The the commissioners have to vote, each of the SEC commissioners have to have to vote. And two voted no for the Bitcoin ETF, three voted yes, and the third was Gary Gensler. So did this break a similar way? Or do you know yet?

• 5:38Speaker 01

  We don't we don't know. We don't know. At some point, we'll find out. I don't know exact timelines of that. It's not on the site now from I just checked, like literally three seconds ago. But essentially, the commission is the five member commission, two Dems, two Republicans, and then usually whoever the president is at the time gets to pick the commissioner, which is usually a tie break. So the commissioner gets to decide where things go. But it's not impossible to have people break. So it'll be very interesting to see how this goes down. So Lizaraga in Crenshaw, the two Dems other than Gensler. And if one of them, which there's no way it was Crenshaw, but she wrote a dissent letter, she might have she she voted no on that, and then she wrote a dissent letter. Lizaraga did not join her in that dissent letter for approving spot Bitcoin ETF. So it's theoretically plausible that Gensler was planning to deny and the other

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Dem commissioner wanted to do it, but this is all just speculation. So it'll be interesting to see.

• 6:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  So you think this was politically motivated? And that's how it seems. This is how most of the crypto community is sort of interpreting this. But it would also be odd, and I don't expect anyone at the SEC to acknowledge this, least of all, least of all Gensler, even if that's what really happened. If what really happened was like some phone call that he got or the SEC got that told them that, hey, this is not worth losing an election over. That won't be acknowledged, I've got to imagine, because the SEC is supposed to be politically neutral. It's supposed to be a merit-based regulator that looks at the law and approves or denies these things based on their reading of the rules and the law and doesn't get involved in the politics. So that would be contrary to what they say. I can't imagine

• 7:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  they would say, hey, it looked like Biden was going to lose, lose an election here, or it could cost him some votes, and so therefore we decided to approve it, right?

• 7:18Speaker 01

  So I mean, supposed to be is the key word you use there, right? And I don't think it's just about the presidential election. I think there's Senate and House elections that people realize they actually care about this. I don't remember exactly who tweeted it, but it's like, I don't know if the numbers are right, but there's thousands of people who are very staunchly pro crypto at the very least. Like so, and it's in orders of magnitude greater than the people that are staunchly anti. Like they're, they're very vocal, but there's, there's just not many people that care about it in a great way. And I think that kind of got through in the last month or so. And they couldn't let the Republicans do an end around on them on this, on this piece, right? Do I think the, the Dems are going to come around and just be completely pro crypto now? Absolutely not. Are they going to be as staunchly against? I don't, I don't think so. I think this is

• 8:03Speaker 01

  a tide shift, a compete, a complete pivot, a 180 from the Dems here.

• 8:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, James, this feels really good to a lot of people listening in the crypto community. It feels like in a world where we don't feel like we have much political agency, it feels like we really had an effect. Like, the crypto vote, the crypto community had their voice heard in DC, maybe turned the tide on this. On as late as Friday, this wasn't going to happen, and then things changed, and now it's happening, likely due to politics. I want to ask you the question, though, as to when these ETF products might become available, because you said there's two pieces. And you said the 19B4 filings were all approved today. But there's another piece, I believe, before we could start getting these products out there into like fidelity accounts, into the RIAs and all of this. What's the time lag from here until these products actually get released in the market?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  One, you're 100% correct. And two, the real short answer is, we have no idea. That's a lie. We have some idea, but we really don't know. There's not a ton of precedent here, obviously. But even if you asked me Monday morning, like, is there any way they can approve, I would have said, no way. They don't have enough time to do it. There's just not enough time to do it. It usually takes weeks, if not months, to get an approval order. But I guess they can work fast when they have to, right? When they're up against deadline. So the other process is, they need the S1 approvals, or the prospectus documents, offering documents, depending on what you're used to hearing. But they're just the documents that have all the risk disclosures, exactly how the trust is going to operate, anyone involved with the fund. That's what's going to be in these documents. And the SEC's Division of Corporate Finance, which is another division, not Trading Markets, is a separate division

• 9:38Speaker 01

  that has to go through those with the fine tooth comb. And these documents are hundreds of pages, in many cases. So this is not something that's going to happen overnight. I think if they really want to accelerate it, the gap between the 19B4 approval and the S1 approval could be weeks. But there are plenty of examples of this taking months. Like, there's examples of it taking five months. I think they'll be faster than that. The Bitcoin ETFs, for example, we know they started in early October, and then they were approved in early January, which is three months, 90 some odd days. I think it'll be faster than that. Like I said, I just don't know. We'll have a better idea in the coming week or two. But we just, we just don't know yet.

• 10:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  So we don't quite know when exactly the pipeline will open to all of this capital. Though that said, this does feel like Ethereum is clearly in the territory of commodity now. If the SEC is even capitulating on this and approving a spot Ethereum ETF, it's going to be basically impossible for the SEC to come back later and argue that Ethereum was an ETF all along. I want to ask the question of what we might expect with respect to inflows. And I think the Bitcoin ETF has performed above and beyond even what some of the biggest bulls were predicting in terms of inflow. Am I right in saying, like, I'm looking at a screen here, are we at like close to like 60 billion in terms of total AUM and market cap? Are these numbers correct here?

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, those numbers are correct. They're like 59 billion-ish right now.

• 11:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  And like gold is like

• 11:07Speaker 01

  13 billion.

• 11:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Gold is like, what, like 90 billion, something like this? Like, we're in

• 11:11Speaker 01

  It's around 100. It's just shy of 100, I think.

• 11:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so what do we expect if we've got benchmarks for Bitcoin? It's just like just launched this year and we're already at like 60 billion. Gold is 100 billion. What do we expect for Ethereum? Do we have any way of knowing this?

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I mean, the two things is, one, a lot of those assets came over with GBTC, right? So GBTC came over with like 30 billion in assets when it converted. So like just going on assets isn't necessarily the strongest way to do it because that's like a massive head start, right? So if we go on flows, I think that's the better way to do it. And if we look at ETH, which is converting, that has about 11 billion in assets. So that converts over, that's 11. But if you just look at flows, the net flows to ETF so far in the first, how many months are we in? Four months of trading, almost five, they're about 13 billion. I think the number, the flows that are going to come into these Ethereum ETFs are probably going to be something like 20% of the flows that went to Bitcoin.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  And I'm going to explain those numbers. So my colleague Eric Butch, you know, thinks like 10 to 15, I think more like 20. Who actually knows?

• 12:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  You're talking about, yes.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Percent of the flows, yeah. So if say was 10 billion, so we're talking, then we're talking about a billion to 2 billion, maybe, of flows that would come in over the first couple of months. And some people were like jumping down our throats like, that's crazy. It's going to be way higher. But I think people are just Those Bitcoin ETFs, those flows were, they broke every single record in the book, right? Like first, almost the fastest to a billion, they were the fastest to 10 billion. IBIT did it in 49 days, the previous record, 49 trading days. Previous record was like 650 trading days, that's like three years. So like they did it, it's just not even comparable, right? So like those numbers, even if you do 10%, that's a very successful launch. But the reason I think 10% is if you look at ETH, first the market back Bitcoin, it's what 30% right now?

• 13:07Speaker 01

  I think the number is going to be less than that ratio for a few reasons. One, you lose less with a Bitcoin ETF or Bitcoin going into an ETF wrapper than you do with ETH going ETF wrapper. The first and obvious one is none of these are a lot of staking. So like you're giving up that staking yield by not staking your ETH if you're just, you're holding it as an investment. The other thing is there's a lot more utility with ETH, like you guys, you're going to use things to do different DeFi protocols, NFTs, you name it. Like it's just way more, there's way more utilitarian value of an Ethereum token, right? In my view, so like that's just going to decrease the interest in ETH as an ETF wrapper. That's my personal view. So that's why I think you have to discount that, again, 30% of the Bitcoin size. I think it's going to be less than that number. I just don't know how much less.

• 13:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  So what does that come out to? So if we get the 10 billion from just like grayscale kind of converting over, what does this come out to? Like about, you know, like 15 billion all total, something like that compared to Bitcoin 6 billion?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, 10 to 15 probably.

• 14:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  10 to 15 in that range. Is it also fair to say that TradFi and like the institutions understand Ethereum less like relative to Bitcoin? And what, what do you think the education campaign is like that's going to happen? Because we saw this, we saw with, you know, once Fidelity had a Bitcoin ETF, it was sort of like all these papers and just like learn about Bitcoin. All of this educational material kind of went forward. Do you think something similar will happen? And do you think that there's some opportunity for Ethereum to be more broadly understood as a result of this? Because maybe TradFi just like doesn't understand it in comparison to Bitcoin?

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think that's part of it, right? There's just less interest, I guess I would say, overall, from my experience talking with people in the TradFi world, in the institutional world. There's just less interest in ETH. Like, it's also easier to understand, like, digital gold, call option to store value. The ETH story is way more complicated, in my view. Digital scarcity is very simple to explain. It's like way simpler to explain Bitcoin. And a lot of people, like, when they hear crypto, they just think Bitcoin in the space. Not all. There's plenty of people that are educated. There are plenty of people that are interested in this. I think there's gonna be a lot of people that are gonna look at this and be like, alright, I already have Bitcoin as a part of my portfolio. I should diversify my, my digital asset exposure. And now that ETH are coming, I'm gonna put some money in there.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  There are some people, obviously, that are gonna think that they prefer ETH over Bitcoin. But I just think those numbers aren't gonna be, like, massive, I guess, is the answer. But at some point, who's saying that can't change? But right now, based on all of my experience and interactions with different people, there's just less demand. And if you look at what happened, so in Hong Kong, they launched Bitcoin and ETH. ETH is that they have the assets, uh, 20%, a little less than 20%, I think is the number. I haven't checked in a couple of days, of the Bitcoin ETFs. And if you look at the Ethereum futures launch year that happened in early October of 23, they did nothing. Like, I had very low expectations for the futures ETFs, and they did way, they did even worse than my expectations as far as flows go.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Complete, no one really even cared at all. So I think that just kind of is all pointing to the fact that this is gonna be not as big as, as the Bitcoin launches.

• 16:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's gonna take longer for TradFi, I think, to understand Ethereum. It's got some more complexities. And two, two more questions, James, and then I'll let you go. The part of that education process, probably, the, the upside of that for something like Ethereum is that it gets a couple of shots at this. So first, of course, there's the vanilla Ethereum ETF. And then at some point, there's gotta be, I imagine, a staked version of an Ethereum ETF. And once you get into a staked version of an Ethereum ETF, then you start getting into a different narrative conversation, I would imagine, which is like, hey, yield-bearing, productive asset type of, of conversation. But realistically, how far are we away from some sort of next approval of a yield-bearing Ethereum staked ETF? Is that, is that like months out? Is that years out?

• 17:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Does that require another round of approval process? What do you think that looks like?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  So one, it probably would require another round of approval process. These do not allow staking these 19b forward orders. So I believe you would have to file another, you would have to go through the SEC again to basically say that can we use staking and they're not allowing it right now. One of my theories, even back when we thought these ETFs were going to be approved was we had low odds of these getting approved, but I had extremely low odds of these ETFs allowing staking. I never expected that to happen, not initially. One of my pet theories is everyone, I'm sure you remember back in early May, late, late April, everyone's like, oh my God, they're going to go after ETH and call it a security here. That's why Guns was talking to consensus. That's what the consensus lawsuit that they filed were trying to say.

• 17:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's what Joe Lubin literally thought. He was like, they're coming after Ethereum as a security. And I think he might've been right about that before the political tides changed.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  I think they were dotting their i's and crossing their t's and trying to look for a way. My theory was I never really thought they were going to call ETH a security in what they were going to do as denials. I think they were going to kick it down the road. It opens up a massive can of worms with the CFTC with the futures market. If they call it a security and they're deemed correct, you have to shut down the futures because the futures are, the ETH futures on the CME are registered as commodities futures. So you can't, that's not allowed.

• 18:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  It would've been a mess for them, I guess.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So then the futures would be delisted, then the futures ETFs would be delisted. My pet theory, and I've said this in podcasts before, is I thought they were going to basically try to thread this needle and say that ETH itself, they're not going to call a security. But stake ETH might be a security. And they obviously have problems with stake ETH. You look at what they're in Coinbase lawsuits, the Kraken lawsuits, you look at all these different things, they do not, they think staking is a security. And I don't think they're going to give that up anytime soon. So that's broadly my expectation. So we need some clarity. And obviously with the changes right now going on in Congress, maybe that like provides and speeds up some of that clarity.

• 19:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's right. It does, it does feel like the individuals can think what they want, but it sounds like they can bend to the political pressure as well. Okay. So last question for you, James, and then I'll let you go. I know you want to run through these like filings. Are there any other ETFs on the horizon, particularly this cycle? So people see Bitcoin, they see Ethereum, this is happening like relatively close, months apart. So then they think, what else could get an ETF? Is anything close? Or like, can you just refresh people on how this actually works and like how it would happen, what signs to look for?

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, before I even get there, I want to hit on something that I just thought about. You asked about the security stuff. These things are commodities-based trust shares. So the SEC by approving these is explicitly saying they're not going to go after ETH itself as a security. So that's one thing I would just say real quick because they, part of the approval process here is they're approved as commodities trusts. Like that's, this is pretty much a done deal. I will say personally, I believe the ICO was a securities offering, but that's. That's a long time ago. That was eight years ago now, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then, so what's next? Not much. I don't, I don't think anything's happening remote, anytime remotely soon.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  You need a regulated futures market, a federally regulated futures market or surveilled futures market before you can get an ETF. That's clear. I skimmed the document that was in there lately. So the reason these are getting approved is because of the CME ETH futures market. There's a lot of questions about what's going to be deemed a security or a commodity with these other assets. There are some that are like, pretty much accepted as commodities here. Like ironically enough, Doge is almost certainly not going to be deemed a security. Make the same argument, Litecoin's probably in the same camp. No way to know for sure, but those theoretically have the, the less hard regulatory approval path. But also like, are they, is the CME really going to launch Doge futures? Maybe. I mean Coinbase, I think, might be trying.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Those would be theoretically CFTC regulated. So that could satisfy that. The next one that most people would think about is Sol, which I saw, I've seen a lot of talk about that. Again, you need a regulated market unless, like, even if the, even if Congress steps in and does something and clarifies what's a commodity and what isn't, like even if these things are deemed to be a commodity, it's not just getting approved because it's a commodity. The SEC needs somewhere they can surveil. So you need to get some spot markets under surveillance with the SEC. Or you need a regulated futures market. And even then, it's, it's not like you get futures and then you automatically get the ETF. Like you need some history. These, these futures listed in 2019, I think, or something like that. It's like 20. I don't even know when it was. It might have been 2021.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  But you need like, you need, you need more history. You need significant capital there. Like if there's a hundred million dollars in like some, like, I don't know, some random tokens futures contract and it trades like a little bit every day, like that's never going to get approved. Like they're looking at one minute candles for correlation to approve these things and something that's not trading enough or doesn't have enough assets is not going to help them, you know, surveil and look for fraud and manipulation. So I don't think that part of this is ever going to change no matter what Congress does, but they could theoretically push some of this along.

• 22:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  Absolutely monumental week here, James, with the approval of the Ethereum ETF, the second crypto asset to be approved in the US of as an ETF and, and clearly demarking both Bitcoin and Ethereum as not securities, which is something that we've wanted certainty from and clarity from our regulators for a very long time. So certainly bullish, also bullish that we can politically push things in the right direction. Is there anything else you would leave folks with? Any other lessons from this or the week? You, you gotta be exhausted, man. You're gonna get some rest after all this or what, what are you doing next?

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Uh, I'm gonna be reading these documents, which

• 22:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  You sound so weary. This is probably not the week you thought it would be, huh? Different week.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  No, not at all. But I will be in consensus next week. So, uh, in Austin. So are you gonna be there? I know, I obviously know David will be there. So

• 23:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, David is scheduled to for a boxing match. So, and I'm scheduled to

• 23:05Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be there.

• 23:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  From the comfort of my office, actually live stream that. So I'll be here. But if he, if he's there, I'm here, I'll be there and he'll say hello. James, this has been great. Where can folks follow you for future updates too?

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, if you are the, if you're a terminal client, that's the, I have like a whole bunch of clients responding to me. So I have to reach out to them right now, but that's the fastest, easiest way and quickest where I'll reply. After that, for people who don't, it would definitely be Twitter. I'm fairly active there as probably you and many people know. So J S E Y F F. We share a little bit of our research and our work and, and immediate update stuff, but our, the real bulk and body of our efforts are unfortunately behind the paywall of the Bloomberg terminal. So if you have access to one, that's where you can find us easiest.

• 23:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Amazing. Well, thanks so much, James. Thanks for keeping us up to date on all of this and on a successful week. You know, congratulations. Another ETF in the world. I know you're an ETF maximalist. So it's a, it's a good thing from your perspective and, and we certainly appreciate it at Bankless as well.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Thanks for having me. Good to see you, Ryan.

• 24:06Ryan Sean Adams?

  See you later.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Alright.