How the CIA Creates Mind Controlled Assassins

Sign Up With Our Sponsors Below For Exclusive Alchemy Deals! Superpower: Go to https://Superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY for $20 off your membership this year. Take the guesswork out of getting healthy in 2026. Get full body testing that goes 5x deeper than an annual physical and a personalized action plan that tells you exactly what to do next. All for just $199. Again, go to https://Superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY for $20 off your membership this year. Quo: Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months when you go to https://www. Quo.com/JESSE Our American Alchemist this week is Dr. Colin Ross. Dr. Colin Ross is a psychiatrist whose specialty is dissociative identity disorder. In 1992, he physically traveled to a classified reading room in northern Virginia, passed through keyed submarine doors and secure corridors full of uniformed military personnel, and spent a full day reviewing all 149 MKUltra subprojects. He ordered all 15,000 pages. Then he cross-referenced every named researcher against published medical journals, pulling papers from library shelves one volume at a time in the pre-internet era. The result is CIA Doctors, one of the most thoroughly sourced books on mind control ever written. He also presented new research on human electromagnetic extramission that has implications for medicine, agriculture, and surveillance. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [email protected] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 4:20 Dr. Colin Ross 6:35 Personal Journey into MKUltra 10:18 The Tuskegee Experiment 13:59 The Birth of Mind Control 17:46 Early Experiments and Hypnotism 20:17 Connections to Lee Harvey Oswald 25:00 Assassinations and MKUltra 30:15 MKUltra Patients 36:17 Epstein and the Elite Network 43:29 Patty Hearst and Psychological Warfare 49:09 Unraveling the RFK Assassination 52:42 John Lennon and Mark David Chapman 57:09 Speculation and the Supernatural 1:00:24 The False Memory Syndrome Foundation 1:02:20 Guantanamo 1:04:56 Candy Jones and Mind Control 1:06:33 Gifted and Talented Education 1:11:27 Intelligence Operations 1:16:51 The Human Energy Field 1:22:15 Electromagnetic Frequencies and Healing 1:26:05 The Future of Electromagnetic Medicine 1:59:22 Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:27Speaker 01

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• 0:53Jesse Michels?

  Why would the government program American citizens to murder other American citizens?

• 1:00Speaker 03

  Well, that's the question. So...

• 1:02Jesse Michels?

  You have documented projects called MKUltra and other variations of mind control, creating splits in multiple personalities, couriers and spies, Manchurian candidates assassinate world leaders.

• 1:17Speaker 03

  They used whoever they could get their hands on, hypnotizing them, brain electrode implants, electric shock, creating the super spy.

• 1:25Jesse Michels?

  This stuff is shocking.

• 1:27Speaker 03

  The US Army released a list of 120-ish different drugs that had been used for mind control testing. 1,500 people times 120 different drugs. It's a lot of people, right?

• 1:40Jesse Michels?

  It's a lot of people.

• 1:41Speaker 03

  When you get into the documents, you find out this guy is connected to this guy, this guy is connected to that guy. It's this whole network.

• 1:49Jesse Michels?

  Lee Harvey Oswald, who's the supposed lone gunman, probably wasn't the lone gunman when it comes to assassinating JFK. Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald, so he probably was an MKUltra patient before having shot Lee Harvey Oswald. Who doesn't remember shooting somebody? Sirhan Sirhan, to this day, says that he has no recollection of having shot RFK.

• 2:10Speaker 04

  What do you remember about the shooting, if you're willing to talk about that? I was... Obviously, I was there, but I don't remember the exact moment. I don't remember pulling my gun.

• 2:24Jesse Michels?

  And then you have a guy like McVeigh, who's an MKUltra patient. Manson, who's an MKUltra patient. These people are committing horrific acts.

• 2:31Speaker 05

  You think that my mind is like your mind, but it isn't.

• 2:34Jesse Michels?

  This is really creepy. I wonder if the same thing happened with Epstein.

• 2:37Speaker 03

  The thing is, it's not just some crazy conspiracy theory. It's actually possible.

• 2:42Jesse Michels?

  Can I give you my crazy Epstein MKUltra theory?

• 2:45Speaker 03

  Oh, you'll be in trouble if you don't.

• 2:47Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:52Jesse Michels?

  Ignition sequence five.

• 2:56Jesse Michels?

  How is this possible? Nothing too unusual about that.

• 3:02Jesse Michels?

  Their existence cannot longer be denied.

• 3:14Jesse Michels?

  As you know, a lot of the guests I sit down with, whether they're physicists, intelligence officers, people who've worked inside black programs, are operating at a really impressive level mentally. Sometimes I feel like I'm a chimp talking to human beings. Often their work takes a toll, and a lot of them track their health obsessively. Regular lab work, obscure biomarkers, often things that most people never look at. Meanwhile, last time I went to a primary care doctor, they ran maybe like eight biomarkers, and they told me I was fine and sent me home. This massive difference between the ordinary, broken and limited healthcare system and what elite people are doing to track their health got me interested in Superpower.

• 3:59Jesse Michels?

  The beautiful thing is they make elite-level healthcare accessible. They'll literally send a licensed professional to your home or you visit a nearby lab. One simple lab test and you get over 100 biomarkers: heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin levels, even environmental toxins. After that, their app builds you a full action plan: supplement suggestions you can buy directly through them, nutritional guidance, lifestyle adjustments. They even give you your true biological age, and you can track that over time. And it's not just... Not just a one-time snapshot. Each test builds on the last. So you're actually seeing progress instead of starting from zero every year.

• 4:42Jesse Michels?

  Make this the year you stop guessing about your health and you start getting serious with Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with code ALKMY. Head to superpower.com and use code ALKMY at checkout for $20 off your membership. After you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about them. So please make sure to mention American Alchemy to support the show.

• 5:13Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with Dr. Colin Ross, who blew my mind with just a really kind of bombshell crazy book. It's called CIA Doctors.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  I brought you a copy, actually.

• 5:25Jesse Michels?

  Thank you. And well, here's my copy.

• 5:28Speaker 03

  And. Where's your other copy?

• 5:30Jesse Michels?

  Amazing. Well, thanks. I'd love a second. And I'd love to hand as many of these out as possible to as many people as, you know, I can because.

• 5:40Speaker 03

  It's over a million. I'm good.

• 5:42Jesse Michels?

  Okay, perfect. Yeah, just give me an affiliate fee.

• 5:46Jesse Michels?

  But I truly, this stuff is shocking. You have documented the kind of medical malpractice of a whole host of psychiatrists who are either officially or unofficially associated often with CIA and projects called MKUltra and a lot of the derivatives and sub compartments and other kind of variations of that, mind control largely. And it talks about dissociating personalities, creating splits in multiple personalities so that you can send couriers and spies, create Manchurian candidates, assassinate world leaders. It is.

• 6:30Jesse Michels?

  Mind blowing and it's jarring to say the least.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  Well, and the thing is, so I'll give you the background, personal background a little bit. So I grew up in Canada, medical school, psychiatry training, worked in Canada for a while. And then moved here equals Texas in 91 to a, and my specialty is multiple personality equals dissociative identity disorder. And so I was in a program there at a hospital up in Plano. And two or three months in, one of the patients who had multiple personalities comes up with this little sheath of papers and all paranoid and scared and hands them to me and I don't want these and take these. And I look at them and I go, hmm, MKUltra, first I've heard of that. That's how I got into it, by this woman handing me this pile of papers.

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Otherwise wasn't interested and know about it. I what, I thought the search for the Manchurian candidate was some kind of movie or something, but I wasn't really sure.

• 7:27Jesse Michels?

  It, yeah, and it is a movie. It's I think 1961, Frank Sinatra.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 7:33Jesse Michels?

  And it discusses the creation of this assassin, essentially post Korean war that Chi, you know, Manchuria is this northeastern part of China.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  It's, and it's based on a book from the 50s.

• 7:45Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 7:46Speaker 03

  So fiction, Hollywood, entertaining, end of story. So what I did was I read a couple of books that existed. There was no published, like mainstream journal type papers. And then I was down in Northern Virginia for a conference in 92. And I corresponded with the CIA, which was like pre-internet back in the era. And they gave me an address to come to, to read the MKUltra papers. So I'm at the conference hotel. This is just a crazy side story in itself. Walk out, get in a taxi. And it turns out the taxi driver is telling me his story of, he was a police officer in Afghanistan before he moved to the United States.

• 8:31Speaker 03

  Oh. I wonder if this is a coincidence that this guy is driving me. And then he goes, would you like to go through the grounds of the Pentagon on the way?

• 8:41Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 8:41Speaker 03

  Sure, okay. And then he says, oh, what are you, where are you going? What are you doing? Oh, I'm just going to meet with some people. Drops me off at this building that is very nondescript. You can't tell what it is. And I walk in there and I'm a civilian guy. It has nothing to do with the military. And there's a whole bunch of military guys in uniform. One sign says, uh, secure line, DIA only. Another one is secure line CIA only. I walk up to the desk. Hi, I'm here to read some documents. And the guy gives me a look like, oh, here's one of these guys here. Sign in and the woman comes down.

• 9:24Speaker 03

  Uh, after 10 minutes, maybe get in a little jammed elevator with a bunch of guys in uniform and a bunch of guys who I don't know who they are. Go up to fifth floor, seventh floor, whatever it was. Get off, walk down the corridor and there's like a submarine door where she has to key code in, then another door. And then we're in a small office and a sign of piece of paper. Walk over here through another one of those doors into a room where there, there's a cart with all the 149 MK Ultra projects there. And 15,000 pages of documents, had to read them all. It took a while.

• 10:05Jesse Michels?

  Thank God you did all this because it's a really comprehensive book and it clearly touches kind of close to the metal as far as what actually transpired and what went on. And if you really want to kind of understand what these psychiatrists were doing, how they were communicating with, you know, CIA, this book is great. So just real quick for the audience, you give a little context as to how you got into this topic. What's your day job?

• 10:31Speaker 03

  Uh, psychiatrist.

• 10:33Jesse Michels?

  Okay. And you have no affiliation with MK Ultra, I assume?

• 10:36Speaker 03

  Uh-uh.

• 10:37Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 10:39Speaker 03

  Of course, people go, oh, yeah, that's what he says. I'm just a civilian guy.

• 10:44Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  So I know lots about all these documented facts.

• 10:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  And I have this pile of documents, but I don't have any insider knowledge about stuff currently at all.

• 10:55Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 10:56Speaker 03

  Which is kind of disappointing in a way.

• 10:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, the the trail goes dark in 1975 with the Church Commission where all this malfeasance, you know, in the CIA, not just mind control stuff was investigated. And there was this kind of large reform. Let's go back to the very beginning of cowboy intelligence interventionism in the human body. So I want to talk about, you know.

• 11:22Speaker 03

  Talking China 3000 B.C.

• 11:25Jesse Michels?

  No, no, in at least in the American context. So let's talk about the Tuskegee experiment because that for people who are in their minds, they're like, how could the government ever do something like this? It's just seems so horrific and beyond what they would ever do. I think this is a really good jumping off.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  And that's why there's a chapter in the book about Tuskegee. So one of the skeptical things is you could never do all that stuff and keep it secret. And if it was known, it would get shut down. So Tuskegee, which is a town in the Southern United States, 1932, the the Public Health Service was the organizing entity.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  Surgeon General signed off on it. All these top medical people were aware. And I've got a one of the papers I copied is called Side Effects of Syphilis in the Male Negro is the title of the paper.

• 12:21Jesse Michels?

  So give people context on just a high level, what happened? Because it's so shocking.

• 12:27Speaker 03

  They recruited 400 black rural, mostly literate guys who had syphilis and then prevented them from getting treatment all the way till it was shut down in 1972 because a reporter blew whistle on it. So it was studying the effects of untreated syphilis. And the astounding medical discovery was. People would get sick and die earlier.

• 12:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, shocker.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  They learned.

• 12:55Jesse Michels?

  Shocker. Pretty, pretty, pretty crazy. So you, you have that obviously occurring. You have early radiation experiments. What, you know, how does radiation interact with the physical body?

• 13:08Speaker 03

  It's all documented, 100%. And there's all kinds of like on the edge things I've heard, I suspect, but right now we're just 100% documented. So Clinton had a report in the late 90s on radiation experiments, like pretty thick, couple inches thick. And in there, it describes a whole bunch of stuff, including, I think it was seven, HP7 was his name, which means human product seven.

• 13:39Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:40Speaker 03

  Those are guys that they did radiation experiments on. So, and this is in one of the Harvard hospitals in Boston. He comes into the ER unconscious, in a coma. They inject him with plutonium and he, he dies without ever waking up, not from the plutonium, just whatever happened with him. So they're just, how does it go through his kidneys? How's it excreted? They're studying that.

• 14:05Jesse Michels?

  Jesus Christ.

• 14:05Speaker 03

  So if the guy arrived in a coma, I'm guessing he didn't give informed consent, right?

• 14:10Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So let's get to MKUltra or, or just mind control generally. When did the idea of mind control cross the minds of American leadership?

• 14:20Speaker 03

  What's documented is in the Second World War, the, because people have been manipulated, controlling people forever, right? So just making it government organized, sophisticated, scientific, doctors involved. That's at least in the Second World War. So 1941 or two, all these intelligence agencies, which are kind of scattered all over the place in the US, were brought under the umbrella of the Office of Strategic Services, which is the OSS. And then the OSS was disbanded at the end of the war. And then in 1947, the CIA was created

• 14:58Speaker 03

  and a lot of the OSS guys just moved over there. So there's a guy named GH Estherbrooks, who's another, he's a chapter in the book, Colgate College, upstate New York.

• 15:13Speaker 03

  He published a book in 1943 on hypnotism in a paper in 1971 or two in a magazine describing creating the super spy. And I have copies of his contract with the War Department back in 43 or so, him corresponding with MK Ultra top secret cleared contractors, inviting them to Colgate College, corresponding with them, co-publishing with some of them, giving talks on the super spy at US Army conferences, inviting the number two or three guy in the

• 15:56Speaker 03

  FBI to Colgate College to a conference, and corresponding back and forth to J. Edgar Hoover from 30s to 60s, I think it was. This is all totally documented. So he doesn't describe his methods very much, but he says he gets a susceptible guy, this is all in the published material, puts him through some sort of conditioning, which he doesn't really describe in any detail. And then he describes, which is also in the MK Ultra documents, he describes a hypnotic code word that's implanted, which was "the moon is clear." So he brings this army guy in, or the, he assigns it to the Colonel. The Colonel brings in this army guy, gives

• 16:41Speaker 03

  him an assignment to take some courier materials over to Tokyo, and then says "the moon is clear." Out comes the artificially created identity, created by Esther Brooks, gives him whatever the information is, sends the guy over to Tokyo. The officer on the far end says, "Oh, thanks for the documents. The moon is clear." The secret message is transmitted, response is implanted. Switch back to the regular guy. He goes back home. This is explicit, clear detail, this is described. And then in the CIA created in 47, Bluebird and Artichoke were the precursors of M K Ultra,

• 17:25Speaker 03

  which started in 1950. And in those documents, it describes experiments where they used secretaries of whoever they could get their hands on, hypnotizing them, getting them to do tasks and assignments, and then having amnesia for that. This is all described in great detail.

• 17:45Jesse Michels?

  So the idea is if you could compartmentalize a person from an aspect of themselves, you can get that compartmentalized aspect to do whatever you want.

• 17:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 17:57Jesse Michels?

  And you can create a trigger to move somebody from their normal, generic personality into this

• 18:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:05Jesse Michels?

  kind of, you know, secret courier person.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  And in the documents, it describes words, verbal trigger, touch. In the Manchurian Kennedy book and movie, it's a playing card.

• 18:17Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:17Speaker 03

  So it can be anything that becomes a trigger.

• 18:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Okay. So you have Bluebird, you have Artichoke.

• 18:22Speaker 03

  Then we got M K Ultra, which then runs into the early 60s.

• 18:27Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  That's rolled over to M K Search, which runs into the early 70s.

• 18:32Jesse Michels?

  What is M K?

• 18:33Speaker 03

  Uh, there's speculation about that, but I don't know for sure. Some people think it's mind control.

• 18:39Jesse Michels?

  But why M K, why K?

• 18:42Speaker 03

  So you can sound scary in German.

• 18:43Jesse Michels?

  Oh, control. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, that's weird. Um, and, and what were some of the earliest experiments that even like tipped uh, US intel officials off that this was even possible?

• 18:58Speaker 03

  In the documents that I have, the GH Esther Brooks pitched his expertise to the CIA early in the 50s.

• 19:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I read this book called The Controllers by Martin Cannon, and he talks about Esther Brooks bragging about this sort of thing. So, okay, fascinating.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  He clearly liked to brag.

• 19:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who in the American government and intel community kind of championed this idea at the time, kind of post-World War II, that we should be experimenting with this?

• 19:32Speaker 03

  The director of the CIA signed a bluebird into operation in April 1952, three months before the Korean War started in June. And then the disinformation cover story was, oh, we were just reacting to what the Communist Chinese were doing. But it was already in place, offensive and defensive, before the Korean War started. So, the directors of the CIA were all, you know, knew what was going on. The top guy was Sidney Gottlieb for MKUltra, who's an interesting character in and of itself. And so he was kind of the

• 20:10Speaker 03

  organizer, main character. Forget the year, 50, 50 something. There's a guy in Fort Detrick in the Chemical Warfare Division named Frank Olson, and he was starting to have a problem with his conscience and was kind of maybe going to become a whistleblower. So Sidney Gottlieb invited him to a party somewhere outside the Washington DC area, and he was given a dose of LSD and quantrill to cure. And then he had sort of a bad trip, but that

• 20:48Speaker 03

  in itself is a cover story. Because the story was, as a result of the being mentally ill, they didn't mention the LSD. He jumped out of a hotel window, the Statler Hotel, the 10th floor, and died. But actually, Harold Abranson, who's involved in MKUltra, was a doctor, was involved in the story. And there's a guy named Pierre Lefitte, who had like, literally like 20 aliases, which are all listed in a book. The last name of one of his aliases was Hydel.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  Alex Heidel was Lee Harvey Oswald's alias.

• 21:30Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 21:31Speaker 03

  And Lee Harvey Oswald and Pierre Lafitte both worked at the Riley Coffee Company in the same period, sixty to sixty-three. So this is all some secret web of some-

• 21:44Jesse Michels?

  So you think Lee Harvey Oswald could have been an MKUltra patient?

• 21:47Speaker 03

  Very well, easily could have been.

• 21:49Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, wait, so just-

• 21:51Speaker 03

  I don't know that he was, but he very easily could have been.

• 21:53Jesse Michels?

  So let's back up. So Frank Olson is working on biological warfare at Fort Detrick as part of MK Naomi.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Pushed out of the hotel.

• 22:01Jesse Michels?

  Pushed out of the hotel window.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  Pierre Lafitte.

• 22:03Jesse Michels?

  By Pierre Lafitte. I believe Frank Olson's son is named Eric Olson and he investigated this and realized the window was actually too small for him to, he couldn't have jumped out of this thing. It must have been pushed.

• 22:15Speaker 03

  The, the family just bought the story. Uh, but then they read one paragraph in a Rockefeller Commission report. Seventy-three or somewhere in there, uh, describing exactly what happened to their dad, saying that he was dosed with LSD. So that's how they got on it, got lawyers. And there's a photograph of the family in the Oval Office of the White House with the President giving them the $700,000 compensation check.

• 22:43Jesse Michels?

  Jesus Christ.

• 22:44Speaker 03

  So it was all blown wide open.

• 22:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And Sidney Gottlieb, on record, you know, there's a great biography of him called Poisoner in Chief.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:52Jesse Michels?

  And he's known as kind of almost the US version of Joseph Mengele and like just kind of cowboy border science, like, you know, human subjects testing. He was head of the Technical Staff Services for the CIA.

• 23:05Speaker 03

  Technical Services Division.

• 23:07Jesse Michels?

  Technical Services Division, sorry, TSD. What was, there was also TSS though, I believe, but anyways.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that it was the same thing with a different name.

• 23:14Jesse Michels?

  Okay, okay. So, okay, but I wanna, I don't wanna let up on this Lee Harvey Oswald, who's the supposed lone gunman, who now everybody kinda knows probably wasn't the lone gunman when it comes to assassinating JFK in, um, November of nineteen sixty-three.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  I have a document that's part of the-

• 23:36Speaker 03

  Bluebird Art Show papers, I think, but one of those. There's multiple programs, Project Dauphin, MK Niome. There's like five or six of them all parallel. The document is one intelligence officer writing to another intelligence officer that after sixty-three, no, before sixty-three, that Lee Harvey Oswald's mother has gotten in contact with the guy because Lee Harvey Oswald's mother is concerned that somebody's been impersonating him in Europe. So there's a bunch of suspicious stuff going on. And then the other main suspicious thing about the story is, okay, so Marine guy defects to Russia.

• 24:19Speaker 03

  And then we just let him back in and don't put him under surveillance or end the story. Nothing to see here.

• 24:25Jesse Michels?

  Well, then he goes and works at 544 Camp Street in New Orleans. And the guy who owns that building is an FBI investigator named Guy Bannister.

• 24:35Speaker 03

  Right.

• 24:35Jesse Michels?

  So that's strange. And I believe he was implicated in, he, Lee Harvey Oswald, like, had the gun of, he almost assassinated somebody six months earlier or something.

• 24:49Speaker 03

  Right, but he was such a lousy shot that he didn't kill the guy.

• 24:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  He's a military guy, Walker.

• 24:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Walker, right. Yeah, there's so much off about that whole story. And then he gets a job at the Texas Book Depository. And the woman who owns that, or the woman who, who he's like living with is Ruth Payne.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:13Jesse Michels?

  And she's very close with Mary Bancroft, who's Allen Dulles's mistress. Allen Dulles is the director of the CIA. So there's so many.

• 25:21Speaker 03

  Ruth Payne is very tied in.

• 25:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah. And then the guy who owns the Texas Bird Depository is a guy named Harold Bird.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  I don't know that.

• 25:30Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah. And he was, I think, related to Richard Bird, who did Operation High Jump, who's headed towards, you know, Antarctica.

• 25:38Jesse Michels?

  And, and, and might've ran into like flying saucers, sort of weird lore around that. But Harold Byrd won, uh, you know, some award for, for the Civil Air Corps from Curtis LeMay. And I believe was, the Byrd family was close with LBJ as well. And there, you know, reasons to believe that LBJ might've had something to do with the assassination of JFK. Obviously, he was a ruthlessly political guy.

• 26:00Speaker 03

  So that's the sort of politics conspiracy side of things. It's the same thing when you get into the documents. You find out in documented documents, this guy is connected to this guy, this guy is connected to that guy. It's this whole network. It's not just two guys in an office running the show.

• 26:17Jesse Michels?

  What are the, let's set the landscape as far as what are the modalities they are testing? So clearly hypnotism is one of them.

• 26:27Jesse Michels?

  Is there like electroshocking, right? That's like.

• 26:31Speaker 03

  There's all kinds of stuff.

• 26:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Brain electrode implants.

• 26:33Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Electric shock, whole bunch of different drugs.

• 26:39Speaker 03

  Classical sensor deprivation, isolation.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  Basically, they just kind of like threw everything at the wall to see what would stick.

• 26:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  It's very, I was gonna say helter skelter, it's probably not a good choice of term for this, but. So in seventy-five or six, uh, committee hearings, um, the general counsel for the US Army released a list of a hundred and twenty-ish different drugs that had been used for mind control testing by the army. And they admitted to fifteen hundred LSD subjects, and there's videos of those online still. And sometimes it seems like they're admitting to four thousand. But if we do fifteen hundred people, times a hundred and twenty different drugs, it's a lot of people, right?

• 27:29Jesse Michels?

  It's a lot of people. That's pretty egregious. What did they discover worked of all of those modalities? Were there things that worked better, uh, than others? Were there different use cases for the different modalities?

• 27:44Speaker 03

  So on Manchurian Candidate, they just poo-pooed that totally. Yeah, it's not possible, we can't do that, we never used those people.

• 27:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  Which is just a straight up lie.

• 27:54Jesse Michels?

  It's just a straight up lie and we'll get into some examples that kind of prove that that's a straight up lie. Well, why don't we just get into that? So what, what, um, what's a good example of somebody becoming a Manchurian candidate?

• 28:07Speaker 03

  Well, we

• 28:09Jesse Michels?

  And Manchurian candidate is a compartmentalized, trained assassin that you could trigger somebody to become an assassin.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Why are they called Manchurian candidates? So there's another document in the files there where CIA officer writing to another CIA officer says he can, he's concerned about reports, this Korean War stuff, that a group of GIs going through a zone in Manchuria were captured and hypnosis was used on them. That's the plot of the Manchurian candidate in CIA documents before the book was written or published. It's not just pulled out of nowhere. My take on all this in terms of the politics and the ethics is the CIA military would be negligent and guilty of dereliction of duty if they didn't look into this, didn't

• 29:02Speaker 03

  have expertise, because obviously these kind of people are being run at us by terrorists, foreign intelligence agencies.

• 29:09Jesse Michels?

  So, uh, give me some of the early psychiatrists that were kind of pioneering these methods.

• 29:16Speaker 03

  So again, this is all documents for sure. Within MKUltra, which is the same in other programs, there's kind of three categories of projects. There's 149 of them total. A third of them are just straightforward sort of chemical procurement industrial contracts. A third of them, the investigator, who's some professor somewhere, is unwitting, means he doesn't know it's CIA money because it's funneled through a front organization, which they called a cutout. And then a third of them roughly are cleared at top secret, they know it's CIA money. So two top secret cleared guys were Martin Orne and Jolly West.

• 29:58Speaker 03

  So Martin Orne being, and it says in the documents, the purpose of the project, it says the amount of money and so on, uh, and the year. The purpose was studying hypnotic and dissociative states. So for sure, they were working on that. And Martin Orne was aware of J H S to Brooks and back and forth.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  So Jolly West is famous for several different things. One is killing an elephant at Oklahoma City Zoo with a dose of LSD.

• 30:30Speaker 03

  He also was sort of involved in the UCLA Violence Project, which was when Reagan was the governor. The idea there was to implant electrodes in prisoners' brains. And then when they're released, sex offenders, track them. And if they go outside the allowed perimeter, send them a signal and paralyze them temporarily. And that was shut down before it got started. But Louis Joly and West was involved in that. He interviewed Timothy McVeigh.

• 31:07Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 31:08Speaker 03

  Oklahoma City bomber. So here's Oklahoma City bomber. Louis Joly and West is over in LA. There's lots of psychiatrists everywhere. By random chance, they had Louis Joly and West come and interview Timothy McVeigh.

• 31:23Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think he interviewed the Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh? Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia Experiment. And it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. And you know who was leading the whole project? My favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor, Thomas Townsend Brown, who literally had a nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor communication among the team members. You know what that sounds like?

• 32:05Jesse Michels?

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• 32:48Jesse Michels?

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• 33:16Speaker 03

  McVeigh, this is all public domain.

• 33:19Speaker 03

  McVeigh said when they took him to Tinker Air Force Base, they removed a computer chip from his buttock.

• 33:26Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 33:29Speaker 00

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• 33:55Speaker 01

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• 34:21Speaker 03

  This is all, this is not conspiracy theory. This is facts that I got out of, you know, public domain.

• 34:25Jesse Michels?

  Was he, did he have any criminal background? Where do you think he was implanted with this thing? Like, was he at UCLA? Because Jolly West was obviously head of psychiatry at UCLA. Was he, were there any connections between him and Jolly before the bombing?

• 34:42Speaker 03

  Not that I know of.

• 34:43Jesse Michels?

  But they removed-

• 34:43Speaker 03

  It wouldn't have to be him. I mean, it could be, there's lots of people in the military, right?

• 34:47Jesse Michels?

  They removed a computer chip from his butt. It's fucking weird.

• 34:52Speaker 03

  Which means they know exactly where he was every minute of every day, up to the time of the bombing.

• 34:57Jesse Michels?

  So the, and then you hear things like Charles Manson, the responsible for the most famous murders, the Tate-Law Bianca murders, Sharon Tate, famous actress at the apex of her career,

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:10Jesse Michels?

  murdered in cold blood while pregnant with Roman Polanski's, uh, I don't know, son or daughter. But, uh, and, and, and, and, and we now know from Tom O'Neill's amazing book, Chaos.

• 35:22Speaker 03

  Very amazing book.

• 35:23Jesse Michels?

  Amazing book and just hard-headed journalism over decades. He started as like this, you know, beat reporter, like looking into, you know, it was like the anniversary of the Manson murders. He was just gonna do an article and then he, he met Vincent Bugliosi, who was the lead prosecutor on the case, who wrote the books, Helter Skelter, and realized, oh my God, this narrative is entirely off.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  It's all cover story.

• 35:45Jesse Michels?

  It's all, all a cover story and realized that Manson in 1967 was going in consistently to the Haight-Ashbury Free Medical Clinic in, uh, San Francisco.

• 35:54Speaker 03

  Well, you mean the one that Louis Jolly and West was at?

• 35:56Jesse Michels?

  Exactly. And Jolly West had an office there.

• 35:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, he did.

• 36:00Jesse Michels?

  And then you have this like transformation of this guy from this petty criminal who's being caught and released to this like sex god cult leader musician, you know, in LA, who's like living with one of the Beach Boys and like, it's just this like, you know, day and night sort of thing. Um, so I guess the meta question here is if you have a guy like Manson, who's an MKUltra patient, and then you have a guy like McVeigh, who's an MKUltra patient, these people are committing horrific acts. Why would the government, like the CIA, like a guy who had top secret clearance for the CIA, Jolly West, or any of these people program, uh, American citizens to murder other American citizens?

• 36:50Speaker 03

  Well, that's the question. So probably because their ethics are a little off, number one.

• 36:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 36:56Speaker 03

  But we don't know. It could be that Jolly West was just sort of a secondary character of the show because he's not going to be the only Manchurian candidate creator on the planet.

• 37:08Jesse Michels?

  Can you create a chain of Manchurian candidates? So this is really creepy. But what if the psychiatrist themselves is a Manchurian candidate and they are doing treatments that they're not even aware of to their patient?

• 37:24Speaker 03

  I'd advise not going to that psychiatrist.

• 37:26Jesse Michels?

  I know, but how does anybody know? I mean, you document all these people who are cutouts and not even like, you know, connected explicitly. And then what if they're themselves compartmentalized?

• 37:38Speaker 03

  So as I always say, we know the tiny tip of the iceberg.

• 37:45Speaker 03

  The stuff, the whole iceberg is just, who knows what's going on down there? It's exactly like the Epstein story, right?

• 37:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 37:52Speaker 03

  So we know he exists. We know he's a trafficker. And we know he supposedly killed himself. So he either killed himself or was murdered in jail.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  Who else been prosecuted? Him and his girlfriend. That's it in the United States.

• 38:07Jesse Michels?

  Just, just his girlfriend?

• 38:08Speaker 03

  Who's gotten the heat.

• 38:11Jesse Michels?

  Now, now Prince Andrew.

• 38:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, some expendable foreign guy.

• 38:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. None of the people who actually committed the crimes, and then all of the people in the documents all happened to not go to the, not commit any crimes, you know, and most of them say, we didn't go to the island.

• 38:27Speaker 03

  It's preposterous.

• 38:28Jesse Michels?

  It's absolutely preposterous. Okay. I have a crazy question about him. Do you think, do you think he was an MKUltra patient?

• 38:36Speaker 03

  I have no idea, but the thing is, it's not just like some crazy conspiracy theory. It's actually realistically possible that any, and a whole bunch of these guys were.

• 38:47Jesse Michels?

  Can I, can I give you my crazy Epstein MKUltra theory?

• 38:52Speaker 03

  Oh, you'll be in trouble if you don't.

• 38:54Jesse Michels?

  Okay. So Manson, if you look at who he modeled his life off of, it was Stranger in a Strange Land, Robert Heinlein. This like 1968 or nine bestseller sci fi book. Yeah, I believe he calls his son Don Michael Valentine, who was like the lead character in the book. And he even calls his parole officer, a guy named Roger Smith, I believe. He calls him Jubal. Jubal Harsha was this protector character in this book. Manson.

• 39:27Speaker 03

  I sent you an email. I don't know if you saw it.

• 39:29Jesse Michels?

  Oh, I don't.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  You know that?

• 39:30Jesse Michels?

  I don't think I did.

• 39:31Speaker 03

  The TV show FBI?

• 39:33Jesse Michels?

  Oh, you did. Yeah. What was this again?

• 39:35Speaker 03

  So that it's a fiction about FBI and they're always getting the bad guys. And there's the woman who's sort of like the head, but the actual operational guy who's always, you know, checking stuff and looking on the screen and assigning people to go here and there. His name is Jubal Valentine.

• 39:53Jesse Michels?

  Well, there you go. A mashup of two names in Stranger of a Strange Land.

• 39:57Speaker 03

  It's not random.

• 39:58Jesse Michels?

  That's not random, clearly.

• 40:00Speaker 03

  So whether it's just some screenwriter with a sense of humor who read that kind of stuff or?

• 40:05Jesse Michels?

  Well, this is where it gets really creepy. I'm like, are, do you think that LSD was given to Manson? Or he was dosed up, made to be extremely impressionable? We know that on record at the time, there's a program called Operation Midnight Climax where?

• 40:21Speaker 03

  Actually, it's a sub project within Immacultra. Operation Midnight Climax is sort of an informal name for it, but it existed.

• 40:30Jesse Michels?

  So it existed and they were dosing up hippies off the street in Haight Ashbury, putting them behind a, you know, a one way mirror and then viewing them, you know, with prostitutes and stuff, how they behave and?

• 40:43Speaker 03

  So here's a wrinkle on that story. So that was mostly in San Francisco, a little bit in New York.

• 40:50Speaker 03

  The guy who was sort of running that was a former. Whatever the DEA was called before, can't remember the name of it before it was called the DEA. So he was involved in various things that had to do with intelligence. So he was running it.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  And he's quoted as saying, his name was George White, something along the lines of where else could a good American boy rape, murder and kill with impunity?

• 41:19Jesse Michels?

  Jesus Christ.

• 41:20Speaker 03

  That's what he said in public.

• 41:21Jesse Michels?

  That was the head of the equivalent of the DEA at the time, the Drug Enforcement Agency.

• 41:26Speaker 03

  He was the head of Operation Midnight Climax.

• 41:29Jesse Michels?

  I know, but then he became the head of the DEA.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  It's not a low level. So none of these guys, the same with the psychiatrists, they're not just some, you know, off the grid person in the basement somewhere. These are top psychiatrists, top government people, top secret cleared.

• 41:46Jesse Michels?

  So creepy. Okay. So here's my question.

• 41:49Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 41:50Jesse Michels?

  If they're doing stuff like that.

• 41:55Jesse Michels?

  They, what I think is if you have a guy who's illiterate, who's modeling his life off the book, he can't read the book, but the book becomes the template for his life. Stranger in a Strange Land, Charles Manson. He was probably read the book while dosed up on LSD or ketamine or something.

• 42:12Speaker 03

  Could be.

• 42:13Jesse Michels?

  I don't know, speculating. But if that's the case, I wonder if the same thing happened with Epstein because Epstein started at Dalton School, which was, you know, prep school in New York. For no apparent reason, wasn't qualified to work there.

• 42:27Speaker 03

  He jumped from nowhere to 300 million in a blink.

• 42:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, that, so that was Dalton and then Bear Stern and all the other stuff, but even Dalton, you know, I think he was engaging in underage, you know, relations with his students at the time.

• 42:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 42:40Jesse Michels?

  Was unqualified for that job, was like this street kid and gets the job there. I believe the guy who gives him the job is a guy named Donald Barr. And Donald Barr was a former highly cleared Navy guy. And he wrote a book called Space Relations and it's all about. Using underage sex as compromat. But it's about this like, you know, this guy that is, you know, uh, going to another planet and then ends up being groomed by this other woman. And, and the, the woman almost could be like Elaine or like, you know, like one of his handlers or something. So you have another case where it's like, his life seemed to be modeled off the book.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 43:22Jesse Michels?

  And so I wonder if there was some sort of like weird screening of, you know, or made, you know, he was made to be very impressionable. And then he was, you know, this, this book was somehow the model or template for his life. Here's where it gets even crazier. Uh, Donald Barr's son is William Barr. William Barr was the attorney general under Trump and under Bush 41. Under Trump, when Epstein got arrested. And as the acting attorney general, he went and visited, uh, Epstein's jail cell and, and met with, uh, uh, his cellmate, this guy, Afraen Stone Reyes, who mysteriously died six months later. What an acting attorney general ever visits the, the jail cell of, you know, a random

• 44:07Jesse Michels?

  person who's committed a crime? That's crazy. But here's where it gets crazier. Bill Barr was the CIA intern in 1974, 1975 around the church committee. He was a Senate CIA intern.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  Cool.

• 44:24Jesse Michels?

  So as far as like obstructing justice and possibly deleting records, you know, around MKUltra, like that would be the perfect place to do it.

• 44:32Speaker 03

  The story on MKUltra records is, uh, they were all destroyed.

• 44:37Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 44:37Speaker 03

  By Richard Helms and Sidney Gottlieb. Uh, but they somehow found seven boxes of documents in a storage facility somewhere.

• 44:47Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  And then those are the documents that got released eventually. So that's called a limited hangout. That's actually the CIA's term, which is you let a little bit of information out, cover up the greater information. It's a standard operating strategy.

• 45:02Jesse Michels?

  So I wonder if Bill Barr was like covering up for his dad's, you know, horrible, the, this is crazy speculation.

• 45:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 45:12Jesse Michels?

  I'm speculating, I have no idea. But it's very, it's weird fact pattern.

• 45:18Speaker 03

  Have you ever heard of a woman named Patty Hearst?

• 45:21Jesse Michels?

  William Randolph Hearst's daughter?

• 45:24Speaker 03

  Who was kidnapped by the symbion- symbionese liberation army?

• 45:29Jesse Michels?

  Tell me this story. So William Randolph Hearst, for people that don't know, is the model for Orson Welles Citizen Kane. He is the premier kind of publisher of, you know, the biggest newspapers, San Francisco Chronicle and stuff in, you know, in the US and specifically California.

• 45:46Speaker 03

  Right. This connects into Jim Jones and Jonestown as well.

• 45:51Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  So Patty Hearst's boyfriend, whose name I just forget now, he was observed, and it was reported in public domain, on site at the People's Temple location in Ucaya, California, before they moved to South America. Then Donald DeFreeze, who was a petty criminal, same thing, couldn't read a book.

• 46:18Speaker 03

  He was transferred within the prison system to a new location where he walked out of the prison into the public.

• 46:29Speaker 03

  And then a psychological warfare expert with the army in the Vietnam War came over under cover of the Black Cultural Association, met with him repeatedly, gave him his code name of C I N Q U E five.

• 46:50Speaker 03

  And then lo and behold, he kidnaps Patty Hearst.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  So the story is that the symbionese liberation army came into the apartment of Patty Hearst and the boyfriend, knocked the boyfriend out, so he's just an innocent bystander, who happened to be at Jim Jones three months earlier. And then they take Patty Hearst and they terrorize her, sensory deprivation, sensory isolation, hold her in a closet for weeks on end. She now has a new identity, Tanya, who participates in a bank robbery.

• 47:30Jesse Michels?

  Jesus.

• 47:31Speaker 03

  She's convicted. And then at trial, the people testifying that she's been mind controlled include Louis Joly and West.

• 47:43Speaker 03

  It's just like, everything's so interwoven and interconnected.

• 47:47Jesse Michels?

  So weird.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  And then she gets pardoned by, can't remember which president.

• 47:51Jesse Michels?

  No, Jolly West is like this bizarre figure who, he's like Forrest Gump or something. He pops up in all these places, like hiding the truth. Like he, you know, he saw Jack Ruby. So Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald and he sees him in his cell, right? For, what was it, 24 hours or something? And then he comes out, does a press conference, says Jack Ruby's gone, gone crazy. And literally that was the breaking point.

• 48:18Speaker 03

  Actually, he, according to West, shot Oswald while having an epileptic seizure.

• 48:25Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 48:27Speaker 03

  That's what, that's what the find is.

• 48:29Jesse Michels?

  Because he didn't remember having killed Lee Harvey Oswald, right? So he probably was an MKUltra patient before having shot Lee Harvey Oswald. Who doesn't remember shooting somebody?

• 48:40Speaker 03

  Sirhan Sirhan.

• 48:43Jesse Michels?

  We're just jumping around here. So that's the.

• 48:45Speaker 03

  He's claimed amnesia for that all the way along.

• 48:49Jesse Michels?

  So the guy that killed the supposed, but not really lone gunman of JFK, MKUltra patient. And then the guy that killed JFK's brother, RFK, who's a famous presidential candidate, attorney general under JFK, he was also probably an MKUltra patient who I think is still alive. And to this day does not, says that he has no recollection of having shot RFK, Robert F. Kennedy.

• 49:16Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 49:17Jesse Michels?

  So crazy.

• 49:18Speaker 03

  One of the, can't remember the title of the book, but one of the RFK very well researched books, there's a photograph of the Los Angeles County coroner with a ruler and he's measuring and counting the bullet entry holes because he knows another person got hit, RFK got hit, and there's a certain number of, in the door jambs in the walls. Those add up to more than the chambers. In the supposed lone shooter's gun.

• 49:49Jesse Michels?

  I, yeah.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  For a fact.

• 49:50Jesse Michels?

  That's right. And I believe it was the same coroner who saw JFK, who wasn't happy about the treatment of JFK's body before he examined it and thought there was some malfeasance there. And I think it was a lot of gunshots specifically from the back in RFK's case. And yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 03

  The supposed shooters, four, five, six feet in front.

• 50:10Jesse Michels?

  In front. That's right. Sirhan's hand.

• 50:12Speaker 03

  The fatal shot was close range from behind.

• 50:14Jesse Michels?

  That's right. And I believe Robert F. Kennedy, because I think he was like giving a speech or something, falls back and grabs this guy behind him and falls down on this guy. That guy was a Lockheed skunkworks bodyguard named Eugene Thane Caesar.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  Oh, man.

• 50:34Jesse Michels?

  And I believe if you asked Robert F. Kennedy, who's obviously now, you know, Health and Human Services Secretary.

• 50:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:42Jesse Michels?

  He will say, I think Eugene Thane Caesar, that Lockheed security guard, killed my father.

• 50:48Speaker 03

  He would say that or he hasn't?

• 50:49Jesse Michels?

  He would say that. He would say that. I think he believes that. And.

• 50:53Speaker 03

  And why, I'm not doubting it, but why do you think that's what he believes? He must have said something.

• 50:58Jesse Michels?

  Oh, I believe he, no, I'm saying I believe that he has publicly said this.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  He's publicly said it.

• 51:03Speaker 06

  A 24 year old Palestinian man named Saran Saran shot him with a 22 caliber revolver. He was hit three times. Five other people were wounded as well.

• 51:13Speaker 07

  Well, I didn't, first of all, I dispute that description of what happened.

• 51:17Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 51:19Speaker 07

  I don't believe that Sirhan's bullets ever hit my father. Oh, he was shot from behind by somebody who was standing behind him with a gun pressed between the two of him and firing. And that man was almost certainly Eugene Thane Caesar, who was a security guard who had been hired the day before.

• 51:39Jesse Michels?

  So, pretty wild. And I think he thinks it was all done at the behest of this guy, Bob Mayhew, who was the general counsel for Howard Hughes or like the right hand man for Howard Hughes.

• 51:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 51:52Jesse Michels?

  And it's all just so spooky. You have all these guys who are tied in with the 5412 Commission at the time, this sort of interagency coordination group that I think originally starts out for, you know, if the government, if the president wants to do some spooky covert action, it's plausible deniability for him. It's interagency coordination. And it turns into this sort of runaway. You know, deep state faction that just, you know,

• 52:19Speaker 03

  Well, has its own Really runaway or not really? There's always a question, right?

• 52:23Jesse Michels?

  That's the other question. Yeah, you call it runaway, but maybe it is always plausible deniability for the president. Who knows? I mean, you do have this famous speech, obviously Eisenhower gives, but where of the military industrial complex? And you have to wonder if he was referring to groups like that. But, okay. So we're just, we're just knocking them down as far as sacred cow assassinations. And they just all seem to be related to MKUltra. You know, one person that people wonder about all the time, not in the kind of political realm, but in the cultural realm, is the icon John Lennon, you know, the lead singer of the Beatles, who was this obviously counterculture hero was probably viewed as a threat, you know, by J Edgar Hoover and other people.

• 53:07Speaker 03

  Well, those guys are definitely unhappy about him. That's known.

• 53:10Jesse Michels?

  So, so tell me about his killer and was he possibly an MKUltra patient?

• 53:16Speaker 03

  I don't know about who controlled him, but he was, you know, sort of like a low level guy without a whole ton of money. Took off on a world tour.

• 53:27Jesse Michels?

  What's his name? Mark David Chapman.

• 53:30Speaker 03

  Mark David Chapman.

• 53:32Speaker 03

  He was in a psych hospital in Hawaii for a while. He comes back.

• 53:39Speaker 03

  And there's, I can't remember the name of the biography, but in the biography of him, in great detail, it describes, he had a whole bunch of people inside his head. Robert was the head guy.

• 53:53Speaker 03

  I mean, he had MPD DID by description for sure. If that's all accurate.

• 54:00Jesse Michels?

  The MPD for the audiences.

• 54:02Speaker 03

  Multiple Personality Disorder, which was renamed Dissociative Identity Disorder at 94.

• 54:07Jesse Michels?

  Did one of the personalities was it saying you have to kill John Lennon?

• 54:12Speaker 03

  That part's not known.

• 54:14Jesse Michels?

  So why do we think that he possibly was MKUltra'd? And not just like, you know, MP, you know, multiple personality disorder, you might associate with some sort of generic mental illness or something?

• 54:27Speaker 03

  Maybe could be, don't know for sure.

• 54:29Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so hard to say there.

• 54:30Speaker 03

  But it's, it's not just wild out of nowhere theorize it. It's realistically possible that he could have been handled.

• 54:38Jesse Michels?

  Well, is there anything else, any other evidence besides just having multiple personality disorder?

• 54:45Speaker 03

  Uh, let's see. What's the, um?

• 54:49Jesse Michels?

  Cause I think in example-

• 54:50Speaker 03

  Details are so many on. What's the book that was published in the 50s? There was a trigger for him.

• 54:56Jesse Michels?

  Oh, Catcher in the Rye.

• 54:57Speaker 03

  Catcher in the Rye.

• 54:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, J.D. Salinger.

• 54:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. Uh, so he went to a bookstore and got that book, which maybe was the trigger before doing the shooting.

• 55:08Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Oh, interesting. Like, the book triggered. Oh, Jesus.

• 55:13Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 55:14Speaker 00

  Hey, Spotify listeners. When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admiral's Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi. Sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at aa.com.

• 55:40Jesse Michels?

  That is wild. Well, I think Sirhan Sirhan, going back to the Robert F. Kennedy thing, I believe he was writing in his diary at the time, like, must kill RFK or something like he had this sort of like, it was like he had been programmed.

• 55:55Speaker 03

  You can't, I've looked at that in the, uh, different books. You can't tell, is it just psychotic rambling, obsessing, or is it programming?

• 56:05Jesse Michels?

  And he also, like, didn't, he had, like, memory lapses, right? Like, didn't he have some, like?

• 56:11Speaker 03

  He was traumatized, uh, in the Middle East as a kid. Cause there's a lot of war going on and his apartment was bombed and he, uh, saw some dismembered bodies and stuff. So he has a trauma foundation for being a dissociative guy.

• 56:27Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of trauma foundation, you read some of these Epstein files and you start to go beyond, this is just sick, you know, pedophile, elite, powerful people fulfilling their bizarre fantasies,

• 56:43Jesse Michels?

  uh, and into a territory of their systematically conditioning some of these young people and creating what you call the, the trauma foundation. So that these people are susceptible and impressionable to future sort of manipulation. Do you think there was some sort of undercurrent there with the, the Epstein thing?

• 57:03Speaker 03

  Well, first of all, it's a bunch of sex offender guys. There's huge financial part to it, sex trafficking. I mean, it's a multi-billion dollar industry, right? So there's their own personal sexual, whatever. There's the money. There's the scoring points with the other guys and being high ranking in that subculture. And then who knows what else?

• 57:28Jesse Michels?

  Pretty, pretty bizarre. It's a, it's a weird world. You read that stuff and you're like, oh my God. Like it really, not only does it sort of vindicate the super conspiracy theorists, like people who believed in pizza gate. Cause it looks like jerky and hot dog, like these foods were like code words for children. And so it was just gross. Not only is it vindication for that, but it's vindication for people who I think viewed like the world more metaphysically and thought elite power structures weren't just vying for power. But maybe we're doing the bidding of some like evil entities above them. Like what would drive anybody to do these sorts of things?

• 58:12Jesse Michels?

  It's, you know, it's like, I think Les Wexner, who was Epstein's, like one of his closest associates. And I think, you know, he like provided him with a house in Ohio and stuff and like, you know,

• 58:23Speaker 03

  piles of money.

• 58:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, piles of money. He was the Victoria's Secret founder and CEO.

• 58:28Speaker 03

  So do we think this guy has access to women?

• 58:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, there you go. And then, but, but also I believe in the eighties or nineties, Les Wexner is writing in his diary. And he's talking about being haunted by a divok. And a divok is, I think in Hebrew it means demon. And so you get into this, these weird territory where it's like, you're not even doing this for your own sick, sadistic, twisted, you know, pleasure. You're doing this because you're doing the bidding of some higher, you know, even more evil thing.

• 59:04Speaker 03

  Now we're definitely outside the documents.

• 59:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, we are.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  Outside regular psychiatry.

• 59:09Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 59:10Speaker 03

  So, but now you're into supernatural, multi-dimensional entities, which then takes us into aliens and.

• 59:18Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 59:19Speaker 03

  Who knows? I don't pretend to know the answers to all this stuff.

• 59:22Jesse Michels?

  Well, speaking of supernatural entities.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  I know you're not interested in aliens at all.

• 59:26Jesse Michels?

  Not at all. It's not, who cares? You know, maybe we'll get to that at some point, but no, it's funny. One of the people you mentioned in the documents as far as, you know, psychiatrists deeply implicated in MKUltra is a guy named Michael Persinger. And do you know about his god helmet, the Persinger god helmet? So tell us about that.

• 59:48Speaker 03

  Well, there's Martin Orr and Jolly West were on the board of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation that was formed in 1992. And there's, if you ever watched a movie called Star Wars, there's the dark, right? Universal themes.

• 1:00:06Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:00:06Speaker 03

  So

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  in 1980, Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry that I studied is like the Bible of psychiatry. Three volumes, it's like literally this thick.

• 1:00:20Speaker 03

  Way at the back of volume two, there's a small section called Topics of Special Interest, which is irrelevant stuff that we thought we'd throw in way at the back. And a chapter called Incest, which is not a relevant topic in psychiatry. In that chapter, there's a reference to a 1955 study saying that incest occurs in one family out of a million in North America. Those were the medical facts in 1980. So there's been massive cover up of childhood trauma, childhood sexual abuse, sexual harassment, porn and rape. There was no rape crisis centers around. It was all completely irrelevant to the mental health of the population.

• 1:01:00Jesse Michels?

  Is the implication of these psychiatrists who are causing trauma, being on this false memory foundation, is it like they're gaslighting the people that they've traumatized by saying their false memories or like, what's the?

• 1:01:16Speaker 03

  Well, I think it's, this is speculation too. I'm going to speculate if you don't mind.

• 1:01:20Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:01:21Speaker 03

  I know you don't like speculation.

• 1:01:22Jesse Michels?

  I love speculation.

• 1:01:23Speaker 03

  Oh, I misread that.

• 1:01:27Speaker 03

  It's hard to tell.

• 1:01:29Speaker 03

  So I think there's, if you look at the people on the board and the people have been active in the false memory, what was that organization trying to do? For sure, for a fact, publicly stated. Get rid of multiple personality. Nobody's diagnosing it, nobody's treating it, discredit it, ridicule it, shut it down. So what were their motives? It wasn't just one thing. So there's a bunch of people who are sort of memory experts. And it doesn't fit with their model of memory that you can induce amnesia or even have amnesia just on your own as part of PTSD. So they don't like that, so they want to shut that down.

• 1:02:09Speaker 03

  Then there's, I think, a group of people who actually were mistakenly falsely accused of incest. So they want some organization to help them out. Then there's people who were actually incest perpetrators. They need a defense, so it's all false memories.

• 1:02:27Speaker 03

  And then there's a group of people who just think that's a whole bunch of stupid Freudian theory, and we've grown past that and we want to shut down all that nonsense. And then there's Jolly West Martin Horn, that their motive being to cover up the mentoring candidate programs. Because therapists are starting to tune into multiple personalities, which didn't exist back in the, back in the day hardly.

• 1:02:53Speaker 03

  And we're just starting to hear stories of, I was taken to a military base, I was taken to a lab. I was spun around physically, did things with goggles, all kinds of experimental stuff to create alter personalities. So this is leaking out into public. So that better get shut down.

• 1:03:13Jesse Michels?

  Jesus.

• 1:03:14Speaker 03

  So there's multiple motives there.

• 1:03:16Jesse Michels?

  You said spun around and disoriented?

• 1:03:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's all, what do you, if you go to Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay,

• 1:03:27Speaker 03

  where we've all been by looking at photos, right? What do you see being done?

• 1:03:31Jesse Michels?

  Torture?

• 1:03:32Speaker 03

  Food deprivation, sensory deprivation, isolation, hooding, sitting in forced postures for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours. At Abu Ghraib,

• 1:03:45Speaker 03

  being forced to naked do sex stuff with other male Muslim guys with a female US officer watching.

• 1:03:56Speaker 03

  Mock dog attacks, electric shock. There's photographs of all this stuff and.

• 1:04:04Speaker 03

  Insulting the religion and stomping, literally physically stomping on and destroying the Quran.

• 1:04:10Jesse Michels?

  Why would, I mean, but doing that to our, it's horrible to do that to anyone.

• 1:04:15Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:04:15Jesse Michels?

  Doing that to our own citizens feels even crazier.

• 1:04:21Speaker 03

  Well, so jumping back to Guantanamo Bay.

• 1:04:25Speaker 03

  Why would we be doing all this stuff that's just classical brainwashing, mind control?

• 1:04:29Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:30Speaker 03

  Technology. So suspicion, they're actually trying to, like Guantanamo Bay is actually a training breeding ground for entering candidate double agents who then get released.

• 1:04:42Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:04:43Speaker 03

  Go back home, maybe.

• 1:04:46Jesse Michels?

  Oh, interesting. So it's like, the like, worst case outcome is you inflict a lot of pain on the person.

• 1:04:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:04:56Jesse Michels?

  They give you vital information, you break them. The best case is that you can actually create some split personality or something and then send them back into their home turf, their home countries.

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:05:09Jesse Michels?

  Jesus Christ. That's gnarly, man. That, I mean, that makes sense.

• 1:05:14Speaker 03

  It makes sense. The odds that it's never been done anywhere seems slim to me.

• 1:05:18Jesse Michels?

  Well, yeah, no, I mean, that definitely has been. That's crazy.

• 1:05:22Speaker 03

  There's a little side story since I'm Canadian by birth. I've got two passports now. There's a guy named Omar Kader. I'm not quite sure how you pronounce his last name. Who was a terrorist in the Middle East.

• 1:05:40Speaker 03

  I think it was Afghanistan. It was either Iraq or Afghanistan.

• 1:05:44Speaker 03

  And he threw a grenade that wounded several American service guys.

• 1:05:52Speaker 03

  Well, how did he get his hands on the grenade? How old was he? Twelve. So 12 year old kid. A platoon of US soldiers invades his village way out in the middle of nowhere. There's a firefight. He gets shot. This is according to the US military. He's under rubble. He gets pulled out. He gets taken back to here and here ends up at Guantanamo Bay. Because he's a known terrorist. And the I don't know if it's true or not true, but they say that they are interested in him because his father may have communicated with Osama bin Laden.

• 1:06:35Speaker 03

  So we're going to hold a 12 year old kid who's now 18, 19, 20 for almost a decade to try and get information out of him. Cause we can't get that information out in a couple of weeks. And he's a terrorist. And then he gets released and goes back to Canada and Canada gives him 10 million and

• 1:06:55Speaker 03

  place to stay. So such stupid stories and such ridiculous behavior for what purpose?

• 1:07:03Jesse Michels?

  It's very weird. So you think there's this ulterior motive of

• 1:07:07Speaker 03

  I don't know if it's just gung ho, as you mentioned cowboy craziness or

• 1:07:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Speaker 03

  There's some sort of ulterior motive or plan like what are the odds that a 12 year old kid knows anything about anything?

• 1:07:21Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of kind of careers that are split off from some hermetically sealed, almost encrypted part of themselves that's carrying a message into kind of deep foreign territory. One of the craziest stories from your book is about a woman named Candy Jones.

• 1:07:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:07:41Jesse Michels?

  What's her deal?

• 1:07:42Speaker 03

  The control of Candy Jones is a is her auto not autobiography, not autobiography. So she was a pinup girl in World War II in the Pacific Theater. Came back, was just kind of living a fairly regular life, nothing much going on. And then there's a guy who's oh, I'm not going to remember this name either, but there's a guy who is a military intelligence guy who's living in the same building who kind of interacted with her a bit. And she ended up getting worked on by this psychiatrist.

• 1:08:20Speaker 03

  Had a new identity that was doing courier assignments and who knows exactly what kind of assignments. And then she wrote a, or she and her biographer wrote about that in detail.

• 1:08:32Jesse Michels?

  Did she, what were the courier assignments? Where did she go?

• 1:08:35Speaker 03

  Uh Philippines? I can't remember the whole list of places.

• 1:08:40Jesse Michels?

  Maybe Taiwan, I think.

• 1:08:41Speaker 03

  Probably. It was over Eastern Asia.

• 1:08:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. The gifted and talented education program in the United States, this often comes up as possibly related to some of these mind control experiments, but being done systematically on young people. You have a lot of people now coming out saying, they had me drink a pink drink that erased my memory, or I was told to stare at a sine wave and collapse the sine wave, or, you know, look at a piece of metal and see how I mentally interacted with the metal.

• 1:09:15Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:09:16Jesse Michels?

  Sometimes being spun around on, you know, their, you know, people's vestibular systems being messed with. I think, I think there's something called the, the G-lock or something like that.

• 1:09:26Speaker 03

  I don't know that.

• 1:09:27Jesse Michels?

  Do, have you heard anything about the gifted and talented education program?

• 1:09:31Speaker 03

  A few sort of floating rumors, that's about it.

• 1:09:34Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:09:35Speaker 03

  But I had, people have told me, whether, whatever the program was called, that how did they get into it? Well, their dad took them over there because they, they had dirt on their dad because he was a sex offender and so on. Another route is after school programs, special school programs, and then the special school program got transferred over to the base.

• 1:09:58Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:59Speaker 03

  So I've heard those stories.

• 1:10:01Jesse Michels?

  Do you think any of this stuff, do, do UFOs ever come up in your research? Do you think any of this relates to UFOs?

• 1:10:07Speaker 03

  I've actually touched on that a few times, at risk of being dismissed as a UFO conspiracy nut, of course.

• 1:10:16Jesse Michels?

  You're in good company.

• 1:10:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. A U outrank me, actually.

• 1:10:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:21Speaker 03

  I'm just a low level guy.

• 1:10:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. You can, you can, you know, look, look very sane next to me. So I'm wearing a ridiculous shirt that says, believe and alien on.

• 1:10:33Speaker 03

  Uh, I'm wide open to aliens, like.

• 1:10:38Speaker 03

  We know that there's like multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple reports of

• 1:10:45Speaker 03

  visual sighting from the ground, visual sighting from the pilot, simultaneous radar sighting from the ground, radar sighting from the jet, turning right angles at Mach three, jumping up 80,000 feet in seconds. It's all documented. These things have been observed over and over and over,

• 1:11:04Speaker 03

  which maybe we can get to Roswell in a second here.

• 1:11:08Speaker 03

  So there's clearly craft and the, it's kind of like taking the lid off little bit by little bit by little bit because it was all mockery, mockery, mockery, mockery. But now it's not mockery anymore. Why? We're not talking about those crazy UFOs anymore. We're talking about UAPs. So that's sort of a sanitizing, take the bad aura off. And the military and the government are saying there's UAPs that are not from us. So, okay, so is that cover story for some advanced program of our own? But it's, it's not any technology that's anywhere near the public domain.

• 1:11:51Speaker 03

  So there definitely are UAPs flying around. Do they have biological occupants from other planets?

• 1:11:59Speaker 03

  Just based on that information, you can't say for sure. But it's not just a made up by nutcases thing. It's an officially acknowledged phenomenon by the government. And if it's not, like it's not the Russians, it's not the Chinese, it's not us.

• 1:12:18Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:12:19Speaker 03

  It's kind of run out of possibilities here.

• 1:12:21Jesse Michels?

  Well, also, if you think of UFOs as this like sacred tree, like a UFO itself is just a kind of a byproduct. It's this like, you know, it's the tip of the iceberg, which is just this object that's flying in ways that we don't understand. And then if you think of that as the tip of the spear on like a deeper kind of worldview, metaphysical worldview that is just much more expanded than this kind of materialist reductionist, you know, kind of overly scientific view that we have today.

• 1:12:52Jesse Michels?

  I wonder if government or power structures think about people who are seeking truth and looking systematically into UFOs as some, some sort of like, you know, threat because it's inherently kind of in a reverent search. It's you're looking for, you know, authority beyond the government or you're looking for, again, metaphysics, that's very kind of expanded. And so I do sometimes wonder if there are divi- if there are initiatives in the government to kind of manufacture division and stoke conflict within the UFO community or instigate belief in sort of bizarre ways or?

• 1:13:32Speaker 03

  So without having any evidence, I'm sure there are.

• 1:13:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure there are too.

• 1:13:37Speaker 03

  It's just the way intelligence operations operate.

• 1:13:40Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  You're always sowing to stand back in one side, back in the other side.

• 1:13:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:44Speaker 03

  And if you just see it as a huge theater distraction.

• 1:13:49Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:13:50Speaker 03

  What's it being distracted from? Well, it's because there really are aliens and somebody in the government is interacting with them, or it's our own advanced weaponry that we want to keep a lid on.

• 1:14:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I know, I know enough.

• 1:14:05Speaker 03

  It's gonna be one or the other.

• 1:14:06Jesse Michels?

  I know enough to know that there's some, aliens is a, you know, you are kind of being presumptuous by saying aliens as far as, you know, them being from another planet. And I'm saying not you, I'm saying anybody.

• 1:14:18Speaker 03

  I'm never presumptuous.

• 1:14:20Jesse Michels?

  And you're never presumptuous. Now, you do stick with the facts. I don't, but uh.

• 1:14:25Speaker 03

  Well, I just like to use facts as the base.

• 1:14:27Jesse Michels?

  I think that's good.

• 1:14:27Speaker 03

  I don't mind going off.

• 1:14:28Jesse Michels?

  Speculate, that's what you have to do. That's what you have to do with these things. And, and I actually think it's irresponsible not to speculate if, per what you said, you're being given little bits and pieces of information strategically per these limited hangouts. If you're not trying to figure out what's actually going on and you're just taking at face value what you're being given, that's, that's an issue. If you're being given the data set by somebody who's trying to throw you off.

• 1:14:51Speaker 03

  You have to sip on the Kool-Aid while you're doing that.

• 1:14:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the thing. You have to sip on it and then say this Kool-Aid tastes bad and spit it out or something, you know? So it's, it's, it's a really tough, these things are tough to look into because the people that are the bad actors are often the sources of information. So it's, it's a weird, it's a weird space.

• 1:15:13Jesse Michels?

  But yeah, I do wonder how much interaction the UFO stuff and the MKUltra stuff is. I mean, okay, why don't we?

• 1:15:21Speaker 03

  There's zero in the MKUltra related documents.

• 1:15:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:25Speaker 03

  Not one word.

• 1:15:28Speaker 00

  Hey Spotify listeners. When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admiral's Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi, sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at AA.com.

• 1:15:53Jesse Michels?

  The only connection, I think I can, yeah, the only connection I have is I believe in Jacques Vallée. Jacques Vallée is his famous French godfather. You're aware of him. Yeah, he's just an amazing UFO researcher. He's the basis for Francois Truffaut's character in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. He was J.L. and a Heineck's assistant in Blue Book, and he was also one of the kind of early pioneers of the internet. He helped build ARPANET under Doug Engelbart. He, in his, he has these like series of diaries where he just writes about his meetings that he has, and they're called Forbidden Science. And he is like, I think, five volumes at this point. And he talked about,

• 1:16:38Jesse Michels?

  I believe Sidney Gottlieb,

• 1:16:42Jesse Michels?

  or like some of his, some like people in the CIA, you know, technical staff services, like that world, them having books on UFOs and trying to understand what's going on with them. But like not really understanding what's going on with them. So there's some sort of interest on the part of people who are clearly deeply implicated in the mind control stuff. In the UFO stuff, and then that book I mentioned, Martin Cannon, Controllers. He says abductions are just like alien abductions are just a smokescreen for MKUltra. Like, um, uh, the most famous abduction was Betty and Barney Hill, 1961.

• 1:17:23Jesse Michels?

  They actually say, you know, in their hypnotic regression, the beings look like Nazis or whatever. So then you go, these are Operation Paperclip scientists brought over.

• 1:17:31Speaker 03

  There's a very cool X-Files episode. I don't remember the whole story, but the UFO crashes or something. And the, the woman is being like manipulated and she's probably going to get an anal probe and everything by the aliens. And then all of a sudden it's, it's human beings. And then the boss guy says, okay, rinse her out.

• 1:17:53Jesse Michels?

  Right. So, yeah. And you know what? I think certain abductions have been that. And then this is where it's so weird. It's kind of the perfect smokescreen for intel because I also think there are real alien abduction. So the Betty and Barney Hill thing, I think was a genuine abduction, but also, you know, the, the other weird fact around that is Charles Douglas Jackson, who worked at, he was like head of, you know, a part of the psychological strategy board and ran psychological warfare for the United States in the 50s. And I believe was at Time Magazine was responsible for the Zapruder films. So the missing frames in the JFK assassination video, like this guy was clearly.

• 1:18:33Speaker 03

  Sort of like the missing frames in the jail cell for Epstein.

• 1:18:36Jesse Michels?

  Exactly. The whole minute missing in the raw data. Crazy. So C D Jackson is in, is meeting with the Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks after they get abducted.

• 1:18:47Speaker 03

  Back to Epstein's.

• 1:18:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:49Speaker 03

  So what if there's, let's say it was accidentally missing, which is how slack is that operation? But, okay, everything's fine.

• 1:19:00Speaker 03

  And then a minute later he's dead. You, you can't even die of asphyxiation in one minute. It takes longer.

• 1:19:06Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:19:06Speaker 03

  It's ridiculous.

• 1:19:07Jesse Michels?

  It's ridiculous. That, that case smells so bad. It's so obvious. And, you know, I don't know. It's funny to me to see a lot of like, the podcast circuit is like all like up in arms now. And I'm like, it's, we've known this for five years. It's like, it's like, just look at the facts. Like, it's so obvious.

• 1:19:28Jesse Michels?

  You know, not that they shouldn't be up in arms, but they should have been up in arms many years ago.

• 1:19:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:19:32Jesse Michels?

  But, um, The human energy field, let's, we've been covering so much dark stuff. And I think the positive element of this is that we all have these kind of bioelectric, electromagnetic fields. And I think later MKUltra stuff unfortunately deals with like chip implantations and stuff that is kind of freaky and weird.

• 1:19:55Speaker 03

  Putting implants in dolphins' brains and guiding them to drop bombs.

• 1:20:02Jesse Michels?

  Is what? Who did that?

• 1:20:04Speaker 03

  CIA military documented.

• 1:20:07Jesse Michels?

  No way. Being able to remote control a dolphin to drop a bomb?

• 1:20:12Speaker 03

  Uh, what's that? The Day of the Dolphin.

• 1:20:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:17Speaker 03

  You know that movie?

• 1:20:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's about John Lilly.

• 1:20:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, John Lilly is the actual real life character. So the mysterious government organization comes over and starts jacking around with, he's working with dolphins and giving them LSD, which John Lilly actually did. And then what they do is they get a dolphin, they attach the bomb to the dolphin. The dolphin's supposed to go under the, I can't remember if it's the vice president or the president's fishing boat and go tick, release the thing and it blows up. And then that gets all shut down. But the documents describe using brain electrode implant. Off he goes, control the route, drop the bomb off. That's described in the document.

• 1:21:04Jesse Michels?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:21:05Speaker 03

  There's, so we'll veer into that before we get to the energy fields. So in MKUltra and related documents, there's implanting electrodes in animal brains to control their behavior. There's a guy, Jose Delgado, who's a neurosurgeon at Yale. He's got a, published a book called Towards a Psycho-Civilized Society. And he says, what we need to do is implant electrodes in the brains of the entire population, not counting the lead generals and the top politicians. And that's how we're going to make society psycho-civilized.

• 1:21:47Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:21:47Speaker 03

  Stated in the book, clearly.

• 1:21:50Jesse Michels?

  It's the mark of the beast.

• 1:21:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so there's photographs in medical journals. One is a sixteen year old girl's had electrode in her brain. And Delgado, the technical advance he made was you don't have to have the wire connected. You can use a remote transmitter to activate the electrode. So depending on which electrode is being activated, she's normal. She's strumming on her guitar. She's pounding furiously on the wall, or she's just like out of it. This is photographs of this girl. And then in monkeys.

• 1:22:30Speaker 03

  And one of the stupid cover stories is, oh, yeah, we were trying this on cats. We had the cat with an electrode. We're sending it off into the world, but it ran off in front of a car and got killed. So we never did that again.

• 1:22:45Speaker 03

  So this is how it leaks into Hollywood as fiction, but it's actually fact.

• 1:22:54Speaker 03

  The, and it's treatment of epilepsy is why we're putting electrodes in people's brains.

• 1:23:01Speaker 03

  All hundred percent documented. Then there's a guy in Tulane University. Robert Heath, psychiatrist, who's funded by CIA and multiple branches of the military. He's doing brain electrode implants and has the remote transmitter. He's curing the well-known mental disease of homosexuality. Because according to the American psychiatrists.

• 1:23:27Jesse Michels?

  Being sarcastic for anybody taking that.

• 1:23:30Speaker 03

  Wasn't sarcastic if we jumped back in time to nineteen seventy-two.

• 1:23:33Jesse Michels?

  Don't you talk about attempts to program somebody's sexuality, turning somebody.

• 1:23:39Speaker 03

  This Robert Heath guy, I'll come back to Robert Heath at Tulane. Electrode in the gay guy's brain. Expose him to heterosexual pornography over and over and over and over to condition him. While you're stimulating the electrode to put him in a state of pre-orgasmic arousal. So you're pairing arousal with heterosexuality. And towards the end, this is all published in mainstream medical journal that I've actually published in myself.

• 1:24:09Speaker 03

  The, towards the end, they brought in a female prostitute, had her have sex with the guy while they're monitoring his brainwaves. And then they debrief him and the prostitute. And she says, yep, he functioned well, normal.

• 1:24:21Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:24:23Speaker 03

  And then the paper is, so he was cured of homosexuality with only one relapse in the first six months.

• 1:24:30Jesse Michels?

  Jeez, and the only one, but that's what?

• 1:24:33Speaker 03

  That's in the mainstream literature.

• 1:24:36Jesse Michels?

  Well.

• 1:24:37Speaker 03

  Just like the Tuskegee syphilis study is published in mainstream journals.

• 1:24:41Jesse Michels?

  That is, this is crazy. That's crazy.

• 1:24:44Speaker 03

  So that's the crazy stuff that goes on in the psychiatry literature and in the official manual of psychiatry, let alone the hidden stuff.

• 1:24:51Jesse Michels?

  Jesus, man. So we're just more, I mean, John Lilly, who we were talking about, the inspiration for the day of the dolphin. He would do, he kind of invented the isolation tank and he would take,

• 1:25:01Speaker 03

  He did, yeah.

• 1:25:02Jesse Michels?

  You know, a lot of ketamine and would, you know, get into these dissociative states. And he even like, I think at one point summoned this thing he called the SSI, the solid state entity. And would communicate, oh yeah, communicate with this sort of alien intelligence. And he wrote a book called, I think, was it human programming and meta programming?

• 1:25:26Speaker 03

  I haven't read it.

• 1:25:27Jesse Michels?

  I think so. So you, you just on, on the note of what you're saying, it just feels like humans are far more like programmable than we, we don't think of ourselves as suggestible. We think of ourselves as sort of fixed, but in fact, we're way more impressionable than we'd ever believe.

• 1:25:46Speaker 03

  Well, just take a look at Hollywood. In the 50s, we were hunting communists. Some of whom were communists and a bunch weren't. And like, everybody was on board with, we gotta clean up, clean up America here.

• 1:26:03Speaker 03

  So that was pretty unanimous. And now it's flipped to the opposite extreme where if you're not way over on the left, try finding work in Hollywood.

• 1:26:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's really hard.

• 1:26:13Speaker 03

  And so then that's just the programmability of people in general. They swing over here, they swing over there.

• 1:26:20Jesse Michels?

  Humans are extremely memetic and, uh, you know, you just sort of, ideas are fashion statements. And you see it especially on social media is like, really amplifies this because it's a hall of mirrors.

• 1:26:34Speaker 03

  Massively.

• 1:26:35Jesse Michels?

  So if you're not like saying the thing that's like really popular right now, then you're sort of, you're, you're falling behind and you're not staying relevant or something.

• 1:26:44Speaker 03

  There's a guy in British Columbia, uh, so me being originally Canadian, he just got fined, it was something like $750,000 for making, just stating an opinion.

• 1:27:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:02Speaker 03

  That there's only two genders and two sexes.

• 1:27:04Jesse Michels?

  That's insane.

• 1:27:05Speaker 03

  He got fined three quarters of a million dollars.

• 1:27:08Jesse Michels?

  That is so crazy. That is so crazy.

• 1:27:10Speaker 03

  So that's what's the difference between that and the McCarthy era.

• 1:27:13Jesse Michels?

  Do you think, do you think people like Jolly West tried to affect culture via celebrity? Like I actually, I met a woman who was Charlton Heston's daughter-in-law. It's a really sweet lady and, um, if you're out there, hello. Uh, and she, you know, uh, Charlton Heston, obviously, you know, it's legendary actor, but Charlton Heston was this NRA champion.

• 1:27:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:38Jesse Michels?

  So he was this, you know, National Rifle Association, you know, uh, when shootings would happen, he would sort of be in the counter rally saying, we, you know, protect the second amendment, the right to bear arms.

• 1:27:49Speaker 03

  Guns don't kill people, people kill you.

• 1:27:51Jesse Michels?

  That's right. And that, you know, and if anything, it mitigates violence and all this stuff. And then I found out.

• 1:27:56Speaker 03

  There's some data to support that. The, in a, in a reverse sense, there's fewer deaths at home from guns in homes that don't have guns. Well, hello. It's pretty obvious.

• 1:28:13Jesse Michels?

  That's a good stat. And for me, this is not, I moved from California to Texas. So I'm not, this is not a polemic on, you know, I'm not anti, anti-gun necessarily. But I do find it interesting that a guy in Jolly West, who's clearly programmed a lot of violence at high levels in the US, is best friends with the guy who's the head of the NRA and this gun champion. Again, that seems interesting to me. Is there something there?

• 1:28:43Speaker 03

  You keep asking me questions as if I might know the answer.

• 1:28:46Jesse Michels?

  I don't know. You know, we're speculating. We're in, we're in kind of really murky territory, but.

• 1:28:50Speaker 03

  Well, obviously that's a huge industry, right?

• 1:28:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:54Speaker 03

  So there's the financial part of it. There is the gung-ho cowboy part. In Canada, I lived up in the Canadian Arctic. I probably killed two or 300 ptarmigan, which is a type of grouse that turns white in the winter. I owned a rifle. I never did shoot a moose, but I owned a rifle. So, you know, I was out in the woods, walking around, hunting, killing, eating.

• 1:29:18Speaker 03

  In Southern Canada, I've shot lots of rabbits and cooked them and ate them. So I'm not, you know, oh, we can't kill the animals type person.

• 1:29:28Speaker 03

  But the amount of gun violence in the United States, when you look at the graphs, like per hundred, the United States is up here. Next country is like down here.

• 1:29:37Jesse Michels?

  Well, that, so this is.

• 1:29:38Speaker 03

  So out of control.

• 1:29:39Jesse Michels?

  It's out of control. And this is what I'm getting at. And this is a really weird, deep conspiratorial thread of which we've, you know, developed a few here. But, but it seems like the things Jolly West are involved with, and this cuts to Tom O'Neill's thesis with chaos, is.

• 1:29:59Jesse Michels?

  The construction of somebody like a Manson, because he looked and talked and walked like a hippie, when counterculture was at its greatest threat to, again, people like J. Edgar Hoover, who were running the FBI at the time, the State Department.

• 1:30:16Speaker 03

  Those guys were a little bit straight.

• 1:30:18Jesse Michels?

  What's that?

• 1:30:19Speaker 03

  They were a little bit straight.

• 1:30:20Jesse Michels?

  What do you mean?

• 1:30:21Speaker 03

  J. Edgar Hoover? I mean, they weren't hippies. They were straight guys.

• 1:30:26Jesse Michels?

  Oh, that exactly. Well, speaking of the, you know, kind of proverbial.

• 1:30:31Speaker 03

  Except he wasn't exactly totally straight.

• 1:30:32Jesse Michels?

  Well, he was across, he was into crossdressing and they had all this compliment on him. I know. Yeah. Well, it's always, it's always this sort of narcissism of small differences, weird thing going on. So, but the point, like, he had it out for counterculture, right? And so this is what Tom O'Neill concludes in his book, is they're going to construct somebody that looks like a hippie in Charles Manson, who literally had, he was like this wannabe artist. He has a song called Look at Your Game Girl. He's living with the Beach Boys. And then you have, you know, this, you know, famous quote by Joan Didion, right after the murders, saying, you know, August, I think it was the 8th, 1968, was the, you know, the day that the, or maybe 1969, I don't remember, was the day that the 60s ended.

• 1:31:17Jesse Michels?

  The day that he, you know, committed the murders, the next day, the 60s ended, counterculture, hippie culture, all of that stuff's over. So the threat is over if you're, you know, part of the establishment structure. And so you have to wonder, you know, again, with this connection with Charlton Heston and gun violence, was Jolly West specifically stoking symbolic violence? Violence where you were creating local violence in order to move society in a specific teleology?

• 1:31:50Jesse Michels?

  Like if you look at certain violent things that happen now, they get amplified so much across social media.

• 1:31:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:31:57Jesse Michels?

  Whether it's Kyle Rittenhouse on the right or George Floyd on the left. I'm not making a comment on either of those things. It's not something I want to weigh into. Like both, both, you know, kind of.

• 1:32:08Speaker 03

  There's a very curious thing with George Floyd.

• 1:32:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:11Speaker 03

  Obviously not a good guy.

• 1:32:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:32:14Speaker 03

  Obviously didn't deserve to die.

• 1:32:15Jesse Michels?

  It didn't deserve to die.

• 1:32:16Speaker 03

  Maybe he was killed by the police officer, but he was cranked up on cold, good head, hard condition. But.

• 1:32:22Jesse Michels?

  For sure. But we should say it was a horrific video and it would get any reasonable person worked up.

• 1:32:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. So, but why select him as the poster child? He's for documented fact, held a pistol to a black pregnant woman's abdomen while robbing our house. We want that guy to be our hero?

• 1:32:46Jesse Michels?

  There are all sorts of.

• 1:32:47Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:32:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:48Speaker 03

  So does that show them on purpose to set up the counter argument that he's a no good bad guy? Or are they just overlook it? Or how does that operate?

• 1:32:58Jesse Michels?

  Well, this is the thing. And I think in either of those cases, or you could, you could come up with a million different examples of like public violence.

• 1:33:06Jesse Michels?

  You know, violence that gets amplified across social media. Again, not making a comment on, you know, you could go get into all sorts of like deep arguments as to, you know, who's the guy who's like, you know, I can't breathe and he was being choked out, you know, in Brooklyn.

• 1:33:19Speaker 03

  Clearly it's way past time to.

• 1:33:21Jesse Michels?

  There's all sorts of police malfeasance in these cases, but I think if you're intel and you're viewing

• 1:33:30Jesse Michels?

  the effect of symbolic violence, there's something, there's something very powerful about that. And it's very powerful if you want to sway things on particular issues. And so I think the public should just be aware and not susceptible to

• 1:33:45Jesse Michels?

  the sort of, you know, artificial construction of some of these violent cases.

• 1:33:50Speaker 03

  Good luck on that one.

• 1:33:51Jesse Michels?

  I know. Yeah.

• 1:33:52Speaker 03

  So here's a little slightly related.

• 1:33:54Jesse Michels?

  We're saying all these things and then it's like we're, we're trending in the complete wrong, wrong direction as a society, as far as our ability to make sense of any of these things. Like you go on Twitter or Tik Tok or Instagram and people's brains are being melted by this stuff.

• 1:34:07Speaker 03

  Shouting, debate now means shouting your feelings really loudly.

• 1:34:11Jesse Michels?

  That's right. So, you know, yeah, it almost makes me feel like. Because I so do you ever feel in danger talking about this stuff like?

• 1:34:18Speaker 03

  I did a little bit way back, but then nothing happened. So

• 1:34:23Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:34:23Speaker 03

  Why am I sweating?

• 1:34:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:24Speaker 03

  A couple decades later.

• 1:34:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:27Speaker 00

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• 1:34:52Jesse Michels?

  So this is the story of my podcasting career. I'm like, really? I can say that? Okay, cool.

• 1:34:57Speaker 03

  So far.

• 1:34:58Jesse Michels?

  Don't say that. Come on. Have you ever encountered MKUltra being used in the context of spooky science? So I think of if you had a modern Manhattan Project.

• 1:35:10Speaker 03

  So spooky science means?

• 1:35:11Jesse Michels?

  Means classified science or science that, you know, maybe would lead to it's low barrier to entry and very destructive.

• 1:35:20Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:35:20Jesse Michels?

  Or.

• 1:35:21Speaker 03

  But we're talking the actual engineering, not?

• 1:35:23Jesse Michels?

  Confer a tactical advantage, you know, in aerospace or weaponry or anything like that. Cause I think of, we talked about the Manhattan Project for a second. If you had any sort of modern equivalents of the Manhattan Project and you were working on something really sensitive, you might implant one of the scientists with a chip or tell them to drink a drink or something. And then you'd have like a shutdown switch if they ever, you know, got lost in foreign territory. I mean, this is really dark stuff, but have you ever encountered anything like that or? Okay.

• 1:35:59Jesse Michels?

  Let's get into lighter territory because this is a I'm officially really spooked. This is a great book. This is the.

• 1:36:06Speaker 03

  So so far we've done mostly this book and a little bit this book. Now we're going to do that book.

• 1:36:09Jesse Michels?

  Now we're going to do this book, The Human Energy Field.

• 1:36:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:36:13Jesse Michels?

  What inspired you to write this and what's the basic thesis?

• 1:36:16Speaker 03

  Uh, so.

• 1:36:19Speaker 03

  I'm a hardcore scientist, right?

• 1:36:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:22Speaker 03

  Mainstream, no flaky stuff at all.

• 1:36:24Jesse Michels?

  No, you're right down the middle.

• 1:36:26Speaker 03

  Here comes the mainstream, not flaky story.

• 1:36:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:29Speaker 03

  So I'm in England in sixty seven. And I just remember, not particularly thinking about the topic. Notting Hill Gate is right at the corner of a big park. And I'm just walking into the park. And all of a sudden I see a cone of light. This comes out of my eyes. It's about twenty five, thirty feet away. Diameter is about like this. And as I move my gaze, it moves up onto the back of a person, then it dissolves. So what the hell? Hadn't taken any LSD that day. So I just stored that experience instead of all that stupid.

• 1:37:11Speaker 03

  And then that made me think about the sense of being stared at, which is a very common experience. And then.

• 1:37:17Jesse Michels?

  It's called, you know, there's a word for it, scopuses.

• 1:37:21Speaker 03

  I watched you talking to the.

• 1:37:24Jesse Michels?

  Rupert Sheldrake.

• 1:37:24Speaker 03

  Rupert Sheldrake.

• 1:37:25Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 1:37:26Speaker 03

  And I've read his book, so I'm aware of him.

• 1:37:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:28Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:37:30Speaker 03

  Because you've got to make it sound scientific, right?

• 1:37:32Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:37:33Speaker 03

  Scopuses.

• 1:37:34Jesse Michels?

  Scopuses.

• 1:37:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. We're not fooling around here.

• 1:37:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, make it sound official.

• 1:37:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:37:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:38Speaker 03

  So, which is good strategy. I agree with it. So then.

• 1:37:43Jesse Michels?

  UAP.

• 1:37:44Speaker 03

  So the sense of being stared at. And then I started to actually, for some reason, it was more in Italy when I was traveling in Italy. I remember one time in particular. I could actually feel the spot on the side of my face that was being stared at. And I turned around to look at the person that's staring right at me. And then I had another experience of, which is con. I'm looking through the window. So this energy goes through glass. At a nice looking Italian woman walking down the street. She turns and looks right at me. There's a look of mutual recognition. And then it's like, huh. So that's a very common experience that a lot of people have had, right?

• 1:38:26Speaker 03

  So then I go, I'm not going to just blow that off and say it's, which mainstream quote, science people say it's misperception. It's an illusion. It's not real because. There's two theories. There's intermission, which is light comes into your eyes, goes into your brain. That's clearly real. And then extramission is something comes out of your eyes. Extramission, it's not allowed. No way, not happening. Going all the way back to John Locke, it's just forbidden. It's not possible. And that dominates academia today. So I go, eh, maybe not. Something's got to be coming out here

• 1:39:08Speaker 03

  for you to sense somebody staring at you. So that's kind of what got me off on this. And then it was spiritual, anthropological, philosophical reading, walking around in the woods in England, in the bush in Canada, sensing energy fields. One time, 1970, 70 or 71, we've got a cabin in the woods in eastern Manitoba. So I was out there with my shotgun, hunting rabbit. And all of a sudden I go, I could actually feel the stare of the rabbit and feel it was rabbit-like energy. Turned around, shot it, ate it that evening. So that makes me think,

• 1:39:51Speaker 03

  hmm, there's survival advantage to being able to sense stare. And then that made me think, well, if you're a gazelle out in Africa somewhere and you can sense the predator staring at you and you feel uneasy and you take off, that's going to be selected for over evolution. It's a good survival skill. And so I'm thinking along those lines and then I go, well, okay, that's nice, but how are we going to study this scientifically? So Rupert Sheldrake talks about morphic fields, right? But what are morphic fields? Like, how do you measure them? It doesn't lead to a natural experiment. So then I just went,

• 1:40:31Speaker 03

  we know for a fact that every atom, every, everything in the universe emits an electromagnetic field. And then inside, there's the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force and then gravity's in there somehow, but who knows how. So it's, it's just basic physics, right? So then I go, okay, how am I going to be able to marry eastern and western medicine? I'm going to say that Energy, the spirit, the whatever, the whatever. And the electromagnetic field of the body are the same thing. Just looked at through different lenses. If you look through this lens, it's all spiritual, mystical. You can't study it. It's outside science.

• 1:41:13Speaker 03

  But if you look at it through, ah, it's electromagnetic energy. We can measure that. So you put 20 electrodes on your brain, you measure your EEG. You put 12 electrodes here, you measure your EKG. So we're already measuring the electromagnetic field of the body for diagnostic and treatment purposes. It's mainstream science, nothing wacky about it at all. So the human body only has two parts, the brain and the heart. There's only brain disease and heart disease, that's it? Well, so the whole human body is emitting information of probable high level medical relevance all the time. Why aren't we measuring that?

• 1:41:57Speaker 03

  So then I published a paper in a pretty obscure electrical engineering journal where I got these guys to sort of weld together a normal electrode that you put in mice's brains to measure stuff. And suspended it in front of my eye, so it's not touching my body at all. I've got ski goggles where I took out this side so I could actually see out. This side is covered with tin foil and copper mesh that I got at Target. So it's high level science. But that's very good electromagnetic insulation. Then there's another electrode hanging out in front, just in space. And then there's the 20 normal EEG leads.

• 1:42:42Speaker 03

  And these two frontal leads here, you can see the squiggly lines like normal EEG. So here's the two frontal leads. Here's the lead in front of my eye, no physical contact with my body. Here's the control lead that's just showing background little. It's a completely physiological, real signal that's been picked up in front of your eye. It looks very similar to the electrode readings here. So.

• 1:43:11Speaker 03

  I mean, the whole world hasn't said, "Good job. We know that extramission is real now." Because you still have to say, "Does it have any physiological or ecological function? How far does it propagate out into space?" Turns out that the inverse square law shows that signals drop off really fast. But extra-low frequency, like brainwave level, propagates because if you figure the wave, like, is so huge, it's not going to drop off. And it doesn't drop off, and published in mainstream journals, for thousands of kilometers. The signal intensity doesn't drop off. So it's perfectly, realistically possible

• 1:43:56Speaker 03

  that from here to the gazelle, it's still a strong signal. So then I go into the anthropology of it. Well, what about the sense of being stared at? But in Italy, these people are called "jettori." So they jet the evil eye out of their eye. There's evil eye beliefs all around the world, right? And you can cause evil eye sickness by staring at a person if you're a jettori, who's got bad energy. So I go, "Okay, so there's all kinds of cultural precedents for this." What if it, like, 80% of that's superstition? I don't care. My thesis is there's a core, real, electrophysiological signal there that can be investigated.

• 1:44:41Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. So you have the, and what's really crazy is you said ELF, extremely-low frequency. Andrej Puharic, who isn't in some of the documentation that you went through for CIA doctors, but you're aware of him, he was fascinated by ELF waves and thought that that was kind of the signal for consciousness.

• 1:45:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:45:03Jesse Michels?

  And that was, I think, the more kind of shut-down part of his work. So what are you saying is evidence for extramission? This idea that the, what are you saying, that the eyes emit photons or electrons or what specifically, or ELF waves?

• 1:45:19Speaker 03

  Your brain emits brainwaves, which we measure by putting electrodes on your skull. And we have to do a little contact paste there just to get a good contact. Otherwise, there's too much noise. So these, which I mentioned before, before we started recording, these electrical engineers, mainstream, grant-funded, mainstream publications, they can take a normal clinically EKG from a meter away with no contact with the body.

• 1:45:45Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:45:46Speaker 03

  So these signals for sure are propagating out into space. If they go a meter, because it's ELF, the ELF component is going way the heck out there. We know for a fact, proven, no doubt. And me with my one little paper of proven, it's coming out of your eye. So there's all these brainwaves going on. They got to get through your skull to get to the electrode. Oh, they don't have to go through your skull to come out your eye. The optic nerve is this giant electrical cable, literally right there. And just the geometry of the skull and focus concentration, probably the signal's going to be stronger coming out of your eye.

• 1:46:25Jesse Michels?

  Oh, it's so wild.

• 1:46:26Speaker 03

  And it. But it's completely scientifically testable and scientifically plausible. It's not mysticism.

• 1:46:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:33Speaker 03

  So that's what I'm trying to do is take all this stuff and transform it into very specified ways this could be tested.

• 1:46:42Speaker 03

  Which, by the way, I would like some financial help with that from somebody, some kind of person somewhere.

• 1:46:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:48Speaker 03

  And so this is electro technology. It looks like from a little bit I've looked into it, probably an antenna technology is better. There's very high sensitive antennae that exist and you can buy them online. So whether it's electrode or antenna, start measuring these signals. So for the eye part of it, which I'm just, it's kind of my personal hobby horse, because I've already been ridiculed in public for talking about extramission, which I called the human I-beam. But then I realized, actually, my daughter told me, you can't call it the human I-beam if you're going to publish it. So it's human ocular extramission.

• 1:47:29Jesse Michels?

  That sounds way more professional. Does it decay at all? So I think of a normal electromagnetic wave as decaying at one over R squared. So one over distance squared.

• 1:47:39Speaker 03

  Doesn't decay like that.

• 1:47:40Jesse Michels?

  What does it decay like?

• 1:47:42Speaker 03

  I don't know for sure, but minimally for literally hundreds of kilometers.

• 1:47:47Jesse Michels?

  So if I'm just thinking about a thing is the idea that I somehow.

• 1:47:53Jesse Michels?

  Know how to like when I'm when I'm imprint it when I'm literally just thinking of something. I'm conjuring it up in my mind. Am I affecting it somehow in this model via these E L F waves that

• 1:48:05Speaker 03

  Well.

• 1:48:05Jesse Michels?

  Geo locate it and literally reach it like a physical wave comes out of my brain or eyes.

• 1:48:12Speaker 03

  Whole body, actually.

• 1:48:13Jesse Michels?

  Whole body and reaches this object.

• 1:48:15Speaker 03

  Transmitters to solar plexus, in my opinion.

• 1:48:18Jesse Michels?

  Okay, but but is a wave emitting from my body and reaching something that is geo located and temporally located in our time space because I think of consciousness, like if you have a mental image of something. I don't necessarily translate that as like you are beaming a thing at it. Or do you think you are with these E L F waves?

• 1:48:43Speaker 03

  Well, we're back to yes, no, maybe. So that's why like the starting point. So my effort is to boil it down to actually testable stuff.

• 1:48:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:53Speaker 03

  And you got to start here before you go way out here, right?

• 1:48:56Jesse Michels?

  So what would be the next test you would run?

• 1:48:59Speaker 03

  Develop a high high sensitivity electrode.

• 1:49:03Jesse Michels?

  I would just assume

• 1:49:07Jesse Michels?

  that you can't repeatedly affect an object or a person who's across some sort of, you know, totally electromagnetic shielding Faraday chamber. And if you if I I know these experiments have been done. Hal Putoff did experiments like this with Ingo Swan. It's part of Stargate, the official CIA psychic spy program.

• 1:49:26Speaker 03

  Sheldon looks into that, too.

• 1:49:28Jesse Michels?

  He's looked into this, but

• 1:49:31Jesse Michels?

  my understanding is it's like it's replicable and it's real. It's a real effect. But that you can't do it every single time and you can't detect like an exact E L F wave every time. I mean, maybe they just haven't studied the E L F component and it is literally a wave. But somehow my instinct is that it's more complicated than some frequency we're missing. Like my guess is over the last 50 plus years of study in parapsychology with the benefit of information technology and chips and receivers and radio tech. That someone must have done this experiment at some point and picked up.

• 1:50:08Speaker 03

  It's classified.

• 1:50:09Jesse Michels?

  Do you think so?

• 1:50:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's again, it's back to the military intelligence community.

• 1:50:17Speaker 03

  And whoever, all the big companies would be negligent if they weren't trying to investigate this, tap into it, figure out what to do with it.

• 1:50:25Jesse Michels?

  I agree, but do you think you can repeatedly pick up? So you think E L F waves explain all psychic phenomena?

• 1:50:31Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:50:32Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:50:32Speaker 03

  Nothing explains all of everything. So I'm just saying, what can we actually measure now with our current technology?

• 1:50:38Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:50:39Speaker 03

  And publish in a mainstream journal and everybody's going to go, since I've been stared at, it's just been proven. What do, what do we know about the skin?

• 1:50:47Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:50:48Speaker 03

  What happens if you stay out in the sun too long?

• 1:50:51Jesse Michels?

  Get burned? Ultraviolet radiation?

• 1:50:54Speaker 03

  Causes the burn?

• 1:50:55Jesse Michels?

  U V?

• 1:50:57Speaker 03

  What type of radiation is that? Electromagnetic?

• 1:50:59Jesse Michels?

  It's electromagnetic, it's um.

• 1:51:01Speaker 03

  How do we synthesize vitamin D? Photons hit our skin.

• 1:51:06Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 1:51:06Speaker 03

  Captured, they drive biological processes. How do we see? So your body's already capturing photons and using them to drive very well organized life essential processes all the time. So there's nothing, it's just again, right in the middle of common sense and science. So there's these sub threshold arrays that I happened to glimpse a few times. That they're just sub threshold, doesn't mean they're not real.

• 1:51:37Jesse Michels?

  You know what I think you should invent? So people have been experimenting with electromagnetic healing modalities for a long time. You have royal rife.

• 1:51:47Speaker 03

  We'll get, we'll get there.

• 1:51:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:48Speaker 03

  I'm just building the core of the territory and then.

• 1:51:51Jesse Michels?

  Well, no, I'll, I'll defend you and say that this is a fact. The voltage gated ion channels is how cells communicate differentials of the potential between, you know, within the cell membrane and without this, you know, outside of the cell membrane. When it comes to, you know, things like sodium, potassium is how cells communicate. Local electromagnetic fields affect those differentials, affect the communication. There are studies going back to the seventies. There's a guy, Gary Becker, wrote a great book called The Body Electric where.

• 1:52:21Speaker 03

  Great book, yeah.

• 1:52:21Jesse Michels?

  Great book. You can essentially charge electromagnetically the severed.

• 1:52:28Jesse Michels?

  You know, um, arm of a tadpole, cut off its arm, charge it electromagnetically.

• 1:52:34Speaker 03

  Salamanders he did too.

• 1:52:36Jesse Michels?

  Salamanders.

• 1:52:37Speaker 03

  Salamanders, you can cut off their arm and they regrow it themselves.

• 1:52:39Jesse Michels?

  You regrow it themselves, but you can regrow, you can create a two-headed salamander, two-headed tadpole also with basically just taking the, you know, uh, the gradient, the ion gradients of the, uh, head cells and then applying it to that stub of an arm that you cut off. So you end up with these, I mean, there's literally a guy at Tufts right now named Michael Levin, who's doing limb regeneration based on this stuff. It's really wild.

• 1:53:04Speaker 03

  It's all coming.

• 1:53:05Jesse Michels?

  It's all coming. Absolutely. So for people who are saying this is quack science, no, it's absolutely real. So here's what I think you should do.

• 1:53:13Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:53:14Jesse Michels?

  So Royal Rife.

• 1:53:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:16Jesse Michels?

  Who was actually involved.

• 1:53:17Speaker 03

  I'm aware of him. Yeah.

• 1:53:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, you're aware of him. So he was involved in some not so savory research per what we were talking about in Plum Island and, you know, where, where probably the modern version of Lyme disease came from, speaking of.

• 1:53:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've read about that.

• 1:53:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, pretty interesting. Um, but he had this thing called a Rife machine, which if you ask a Lyme disease patient to this day, ironically, uh, this is the thing that works for them. It came from this guy Royal Rife, uh, and it works on the electromagnetic field from, of the body. And it essentially is like a, it's a horseshoe. It's a copper horseshoe. It looks like basically a Tesla coil.

• 1:53:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:53:52Jesse Michels?

  And it seems to tune the body in this really healing way. There's another company called Amp Coil, which makes things around this area. I've used an amp coil before.

• 1:54:02Speaker 03

  It's called a Tesla coil?

• 1:54:04Jesse Michels?

  It's, it's a Tesla coil.

• 1:54:05Speaker 03

  Is there some guy around here who makes Tesla stuff?

• 1:54:09Jesse Michels?

  Elon Musk.

• 1:54:10Speaker 03

  You should get him involved.

• 1:54:11Jesse Michels?

  Possibly, although.

• 1:54:12Speaker 03

  It's tricky to get his attention.

• 1:54:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I don't know. But, um, so I think if you.

• 1:54:19Jesse Michels?

  There's a whole polemic on Elon working on.

• 1:54:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:23Jesse Michels?

  I don't know. Yeah, but.

• 1:54:24Speaker 03

  I'm aware.

• 1:54:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, you're aware. So if you think of the body as you can turn molecular mass into frequency and every organ or every part of the body should be operating at some optimum frequency.

• 1:54:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:54:38Jesse Michels?

  Again, not quacky to say, there's a field called cymatics.

• 1:54:41Speaker 03

  When the frequency goes to zero, we know it's game over.

• 1:54:44Jesse Michels?

  We know it's game over. And there's a field called cymatics where you can put sand on a vibrational plate and create structures deliberately with frequency and acoustics. And so we know that this is not pseudoscience.

• 1:54:59Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:54:59Jesse Michels?

  So what if you created some sort of, just like we, you know, you can bank stem cells or blood cord as if you're, you know, a baby or whatever. And then you do an autologous stem cell transfer later in life. If you have some sort of malady and it can really help you.

• 1:55:16Speaker 03

  Can I tell you a secret about doctors?

• 1:55:18Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:55:18Speaker 03

  They use long words you don't understand to sound smarter.

• 1:55:21Jesse Michels?

  I know. Sorry for using the word autologous. It's just your own stem cells is what I'm saying, where you don't have an immune reaction due to transferring it. My point is, what if you could figure out there was like an optimum frequency at which your organs or body was up, could operate at?

• 1:55:37Speaker 03

  Bound to be.

• 1:55:37Jesse Michels?

  You could then create sort of a bank electromagnetically of, you know, what, what is optimum health for your organs? You could also do that across a large cohort. And then you could create essentially a tuning fork for the human body. And if you think about acoustics and physics and electromagnetics, they exist upstream of biochemistry. Biochemistry is, you know, one layer up on the stack.

• 1:56:03Speaker 03

  Do you want to know the caveman version of that technology?

• 1:56:05Jesse Michels?

  Tell me, yeah.

• 1:56:08Speaker 03

  What do you put in a person's chest when they've got atrial fibrillation? A pacemaker.

• 1:56:12Jesse Michels?

  A pacemaker, exactly.

• 1:56:14Speaker 03

  We're already doing it.

• 1:56:15Jesse Michels?

  Can't walk through an X-ray because it'll.

• 1:56:16Speaker 03

  At a very primitive level.

• 1:56:17Jesse Michels?

  We are. No, we are. Exactly. We are. We know that the body is electric. Yeah. And what is a defibrillator at all? It is a way to electrically jumpstart the body. So. Couldn't we do something like this? And then you would end up with this post medicine bear. You know, we have medicine, which is really the creation of the Flexner Report and the sort of modern American Medical Association, which is-

• 1:56:40Speaker 03

  Now we're off into conspiracy theories again.

• 1:56:42Jesse Michels?

  But it's not even a conspiracy. It's literally, it's petrochemical based and all, you know, this was Rockefeller was funding this stuff. And I'm not saying, you know, necessarily it was all-

• 1:56:51Speaker 03

  I'm very critical of Big Pharma.

• 1:56:53Jesse Michels?

  It's horrible. It's a, it's a bad system. So this is all, it's all this petrochemical based pills. And then if you created this sort of generator that could like take that out, like this, literally this thing that could tune your body. How amazing would that be?

• 1:57:08Speaker 03

  So-

• 1:57:09Jesse Michels?

  You should create it.

• 1:57:10Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:57:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:11Speaker 03

  You should get me some money.

• 1:57:14Jesse Michels?

  So giving you the idea and getting you the money.

• 1:57:18Speaker 03

  Well, what else you got to do today?

• 1:57:19Jesse Michels?

  I think, okay, fine. I'll own 90% of the company then.

• 1:57:24Speaker 03

  I might have to negotiate on that.

• 1:57:25Jesse Michels?

  Okay. All right. We'll figure it out.

• 1:57:29Speaker 03

  So, well, this is all where my thinking is heading. And it's all, there's a TV show and a couple of movies called Star Trek.

• 1:57:39Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:57:40Speaker 03

  There's Dr. Bones.

• 1:57:41Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:57:43Speaker 03

  Tricorder.

• 1:57:45Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:57:46Speaker 03

  I'm talking about developing a tricorder.

• 1:57:48Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 1:57:49Speaker 03

  You use this antenna. Okay. So interested about the eye beam, but interested in the whole body. And then you can have an array of these either electrodes or antennae, whatever kind of sensors it is. And you lie the person down and you can have just handheld, single version. You can scan around. You can have a, like a mammogram X-ray type thing, or you can have like an MRI machine we lie in there. You have a ray of these electrodes and you just measure and all the frequencies are coming out of the whole body and all the different locations. And can you spot disease at the electromagnetic level before it trickles down to the biological level?

• 1:58:33Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Probably.

• 1:58:35Speaker 03

  Probably. Or-

• 1:58:38Speaker 03

  You just do the scan. So it's not like an MRI. You're not putting any radiation into the person or a CT scan or anything. You're just measuring what comes out. So it's no more noxious than taking a photograph of somebody. There's no side effects at all. And then, okay, just what you've been saying. Okay, here's the abnormality that we've measured and we've got, you know, all the norms and all the charts and all the different diseases all mapped out. What energy are we going to put back in to normalize this?

• 1:59:07Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Exactly.

• 1:59:08Speaker 03

  So it's a whole electromagnetic medicine. And then,

• 1:59:14Speaker 03

  I remember talking to a guy at a sort of a dinner get together, talking about sort of this kind of stuff. And I was getting on, saying to him, yeah, well, satellites now, they can read X-rays from the sky. And this guy's a military guy and he sort of scoffs at me and surprised me with his reactions. License plate, they can count the hair on a fly's butt. So, I mean, the resolution is incredible, right? So if I've got little lines here, it's called a fingerprint. I've got an iris here. I've got DNA in here. These are all identifying features of me, right? So maybe everybody has an electromagnetic

• 1:59:58Speaker 03

  specific signature to themselves, which maybe you could track from way up there. So then,

• 2:00:06Speaker 03

  really, this funny side story I thought to, a book about Osama bin Laden was obviously anti FBI, pro CIA kind of perspective. And they're making fun of this, you know, guys on the FBI CIA are stumbling and bumbling around. They can't find him anywhere. Oh, we just missed our opportunity. He was at a Saudi Arabia, I think it was, one of those get togethers where they all have their falcons and they're hunting and stuff. He was there and they knew who was there. And they were monitoring from a drone or satellite or whatever. And then he just slipped out. We didn't notice him leaving.

• 2:00:51Speaker 03

  And that's why we didn't get him that year. This is the most ridiculous, preposterous story ever. What do you mean? You're surveying like all the time. What do you mean? The tape changed the minute was missing from when Bin Laden left. So we, we were obviously able to track. Any individual we want, just optically. So now we could track electromagnetically. So we have that technology. How come we have all these missing children? We have no idea where they are. So there's some big block to getting that operational. So we could find all these people and arrest all these guys. So now we're back into the conspiracy side of it.

• 2:01:37Jesse Michels?

  So what, what exactly you're saying? If this technology around MKUltra is in the black along with the electromagnetic signatures that are unique to people, we should be able to like track everybody on the planet. Like some group should with sort of.

• 2:01:53Speaker 03

  Potentially.

• 2:01:56Speaker 03

  But we're already tracking with digital currency, satellite imagery.

• 2:02:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:01Speaker 03

  Telephones, emails. I mean, every single phone call email is tracked and stored, right? So it's just another additional. Part of the horrible surveillance complex.

• 2:02:13Jesse Michels?

  Yes. I was trying to end on a positive note.

• 2:02:16Speaker 03

  Well, I'm back to the light side here.

• 2:02:20Speaker 03

  My father's not that evil guy.

• 2:02:25Speaker 03

  So we're just taking mainstream medicine into the 21st century.

• 2:02:30Jesse Michels?

  We are, man.

• 2:02:31Speaker 03

  While dragging our feet on it a bit. And so then another thing would be security. So yeah, iris recognition, you're the only person with your key, there's levels of it. Why don't we have a electromagnetic scanner that identifies a person? Why don't we have a system where you can detect somebody approaching the building or entering the building electromagnetically?

• 2:02:56Jesse Michels?

  Let's not, let's not do any of that. Let's do the healing thing first.

• 2:03:00Speaker 03

  I'm just saying, this is part of the sales pitch, right?

• 2:03:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:03Speaker 03

  So many applications then in agriculture.

• 2:03:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:07Speaker 03

  Uh, we have hydroponic gardening already, right?

• 2:03:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, sure.

• 2:03:11Speaker 03

  It's not that widely used. We know there's some like really stupid, ridiculous people called medicine men.

• 2:03:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:19Speaker 03

  And they like to jump around and chant and wave feathers in the air to help the crops grow. Superstition. There is a, if we go back 1500 years in England, there's the maypole dances, which are fertility dances in the spring. So it's all cultures all over the place, right? Well, ridiculous nonsense, but they're, they're having fun at the party. But what if the medicine man is emitting a specific focused electromagnetic signal, which I say probably coming from the solar plexus, that actually enhances germination? So now we go to the hydroponic garden.

• 2:04:05Speaker 03

  We measure what it is that's coming out of the medicine man's body. We imitate that frequency with an emitter. We expose the hydroponic garden to it. We have the control garden. What's the germination rate? It's totally researchable.

• 2:04:22Jesse Michels?

  Well, like Tesla said, it's all frequency.

• 2:04:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:04:25Jesse Michels?

  And Dr. Colin Ross, I really appreciate this. I'm glad we ended on this positive note of fertilizing the world, healing people, uh, because we just covered a lot of dark shit, to be honest.

• 2:04:36Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 2:04:36Jesse Michels?

  And, um, but it's dark stuff that really needs to be exposed. And, uh, you've really helped, uh, put it to the light. And so. I don't really know what you do with this. I think it's just be aware of all the weird malfeasance when it comes to intel on this stuff historically and, you know, maybe we can get some good investigative journalism as to what's happening today. And I really appreciate you coming by, man. It was a lot of fun.

• 2:04:59Speaker 03

  Thanks for the invite.

• 2:05:00Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 2:05:31Speaker 07

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• 2:05:57Speaker 07

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