The Truth About Netflix Buying Warner Bros. Plus: Snubs and Surprises of the Golden Globe Nominations and Jafar Panahi on ‘It Was Just an Accident.’

Sean and Amanda have an action-packed show today, and they start with the biggest piece of news: Netflix’s $82.7 billion acquisition of Warner Bros. Discovery. They talk through their initial gut reactions to the news; cover the additional information that came through over the weekend, including Paramount’s hostile bid; and hypothesize whether or not the sale will go through (1:57). Then, they react to the Golden Globe nominations and try to make sense of what they mean for the Academy Awards (1:00:11). Finally, they briefly discuss Jafar Panahi’s ‘It Was Just an Accident’ (1:20:29) before Sean is joined by Panahi himself to discuss how he casts his actors, why he prioritized balancing a humorous tone and serious drama, and why he feels that his next film has to be about war (1:26:51). Hosts: Sean Fennessey and Amanda Dobbins Guests: Jafar Panahi and Sheida Dayani Producer: Jack Sanders Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:14Sean Fennessey?

  I'm Sean Fennessey.

• 0:15Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm Amanda Dobbins.

• 0:16Sean Fennessey?

  And this is The Big Picture, a conversation show about the future of movies.

• 0:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Good morning!

• 0:21Sean Fennessey?

  And life itself. We have a staggeringly loaded episode.

• 0:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 0:26Sean Fennessey?

  This fine Monday morning. It's 8 a.m. We will discuss the just announced Golden Globe nominations, which seem not terribly important relative to everything else we'll discuss. We will also be discussing It Was Just an Accident, which is the new film from Jafar Panahi. It's a Palme d'Or winning thriller, and it examines a chilling aspect of life under the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, as you may have heard on the show last week. Thanks to Adam Naaman, it is one of the great movies of the year. It was also my honor to be joined by Panahi later in this episode to talk about the film, how and why he made it in secret, his fascinating career, an outspoken dissident, and a world-class filmmaker. We recorded our conversation with Panahi before the news came out that he was recently, once again,

• 1:08Sean Fennessey?

  sentenced to serve one year in prison in Iran when he returns to the country. So we won't be addressing that in that conversation, but I hope you will stick around for the discussion. He is an amazing person and an amazing thinker about movies, but...

• 1:21Amanda Dobbins?

  First, we've got to talk about some assholes in suits.

• 1:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. There was a major transaction, maybe, in the world of movies and television, and we will talk about it right after this.

• 1:35Amanda Dobbins?

  This episode of The Big Picture is presented by Amazon Prime. You know how in every great holiday movie, there's that last-minute scramble to make it all come together? From gifts to hosting essentials, Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and just can't wait. So if you need fast, free delivery that saves the day, it's on Prime. Head to amazon.com/prime to shop now.

• 1:57Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, Amanda.

• 1:59Amanda Dobbins?

  I should have said suit jackets, hoodies, you know?

• 2:02Sean Fennessey?

  That's true.

• 2:03Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't really know.

• 2:04Sean Fennessey?

  It's true.

• 2:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Suits is more of a metaphorical, symbolic term than an actual description of what these men are wearing.

• 2:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, it probably is mostly men who are participating. On Thursday afternoon, we recorded our top five movies of the year.

• 2:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:20Sean Fennessey?

  Episode, which is historically one of our bigger episodes, one that we spend all year preparing for. And then, of course, three hours after we finished recording that episode, the news came down officially that Netflix's offer to acquire Warner Brothers was accepted, $82.7 billion.

• 2:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:40Sean Fennessey?

  I want, we have to talk about everything we know about this.

• 2:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 2:43Sean Fennessey?

  But I just want to start by saying, I'm very happy that I did not drive back to the studio on Thursday night, or on Friday morning, or on Friday afternoon. Jack Sanders can attest that I strongly considered coming in on Friday afternoon, even though I had two other podcast recordings that day.

• 3:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 3:00Sean Fennessey?

  Because in the span of 72 to 96 hours, a lot has changed.

• 3:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 3:05Sean Fennessey?

  So.

• 3:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Including, we should say, as of the moment, we are recording, about an hour ago, Paramount launched its hostile bid to try to wrest control of the ownership of Warner Brothers, or the sale of Warner Brothers from Netflix. So, you know, this is primarily a podcast about mergers and acquisitions.

• 3:26Sean Fennessey?

  It is going to be now.

• 3:28Amanda Dobbins?

  And we're really excited to get into that nitty gritty with you as masters of the universe. I, it, so it is ever changing. I, but I think you're talking about how emotionally you needed some time to sit with it on Friday.

• 3:43Sean Fennessey?

  Informationally as well.

• 3:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, sure.

• 3:45Sean Fennessey?

  I wouldn't say I was pounding the pavement as a reporter, but I certainly talked to a lot of people in the business over the last three or four days.

• 3:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 3:54Sean Fennessey?

  And. You know, I think we're gonna have to balance this conversation between as much information and context as we can provide the listener who cares mostly about movies.

• 4:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 4:02Sean Fennessey?

  And as much feeling as we can convey about how we feel. So I do want to start with how do you feel, you know, given everything that has transpired, but also taking into account maybe what Thursday night felt like.

• 4:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. So there's the kind of like psych 101 prompt of if you could know the time and manner of your death, would you want to? No, but I'm like, I'm serious. And most people would say no, right? Because we are all going to die. That is part of the human condition. But there is something about knowing how and when that changes your entire experience. And we are finding out how movies are going to not die and but change dramatically. And we have known that this is coming. In many, in many situations, it is already happening. The way that we consume movies and the way that movies are made and distributed and

• 5:01Amanda Dobbins?

  conceptualized and consumed has been changing dramatically for 20 years. And we have known that it would not be the Hollywood of our, you know, of our childhood of the 90s for a long time. But we've just been kind of like, hmm, well, I wonder whether this will happen or this will happen. And there is something jarring about it being written down for you. Well, so actually, it's going to be that Netflix buys it and they will honor all the existing distribution deals. And then they will slowly cut down the windows and then your movie theaters will be sold out to watch it go, to have it literalized or mapped out is bracing? If not.

• 5:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Surprising.

• 5:47Sean Fennessey?

  I generally agree with you.

• 5:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 5:48Sean Fennessey?

  I think I had the same emotional reaction that I expected to have, which it felt like a very totalizing conclusion to that 20-year buildup that you're describing, that it felt like, well, of course, it is the company that represents the effect of destroying this thing that matters to us, right? Even if they aren't solely responsible, and I have a lot of feelings about ultimately how we got here, that Netflix did a tremendous amount of work to destabilize theatrical movie going.

• 6:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 6:19Sean Fennessey?

  And so them taking over arguably the most historic, existing standalone studio in Hollywood history, and bringing it under its umbrella, and as you said, honoring its agreements all the way up until that no longer is necessary to do.

• 6:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 6:36Sean Fennessey?

  Felt very sad, very frustrating. It was useful, I think, to have even just 24 hours to kind of chew on it and think about it. There were some immediate reactions to this news, which was, on one side, a lot of people felt an enormous amount of relief, because this meant, if this were to hold, that Paramount would not get control. And if Paramount doesn't get control, then maybe perhaps the entire Warner Brothers studio is not enthralled to a Trump rubber-stamped corporation that has the interests of the far-right in mind.

• 7:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 7:10Sean Fennessey?

  And additionally, if Paramount comes on in this hostile takeover, and it'll also acquire the cable networks, and so then it becomes this sort of like, what feels like a state-run social media ecosystem, because then you're including CNN, you're including the news apparatus, you're combining that with CBS. In the case of Netflix, they're buying a movie studio, and they're buying a streamer in HBO. And that's really it. Now, those are two huge things, but it doesn't have that Orwellian quality that some of the Paramount acquisition does. Now, I think that's a very legitimate concern.

• 7:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 7:43Sean Fennessey?

  And I don't want to minimize it. It just isn't actually the focus of what we do. And also, I will note-

• 7:51Sean Fennessey?

  Administrations do end. There's a very reasonable way to say, well, it'll be very easy for J.D. Vance to continue on, or Trump won't leave office. And we could speculate about those things. That's not what this show does. I do think that in five years, if we are looking at a Democrat in office for the president, and Paramount owns Warner Brothers, I'm not really even sure what the political effect of that is. It's hard to gauge what the impact would be. The Netflix side of it really mostly impacts the entertainment business. And everybody that I talked to over the weekend, who you could use the word creative to describe them, was really depressed about this. And they weren't going to be

• 8:35Sean Fennessey?

  happy about Paramount, because it has the same effect, which is it just takes another studio off the board, another buyer off the board. It makes it a less robust economy.

• 8:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 8:46Sean Fennessey?

  But-

• 8:46Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it is consolidation.

• 8:48Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 8:48Amanda Dobbins?

  And so you're losing jobs, and you're probably just, you're losing jobs in the actual, like, studio sense of all the people that are employed by Paramount and Warner Brothers. But then also in the amount of movies made. And so that affects everyone who works on a film, that affects, you know, the downstream distribution, you know, theaters, which we'll get to. So, you know, I understand that Paramount seemed like the quote-unquote worst option, and I think we were even sort of expecting it, and-

• 9:23Sean Fennessey?

  We were. Yeah. I was not expecting Netflix to win at all.

• 9:26Amanda Dobbins?

  And also, you know, as of this morning, like, you know, who can say-

• 9:30Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 9:30Amanda Dobbins?

  -in terms of how it's going to turn out. But the Netflix of it all, also, so just, it has that emotional, as you said, they have become the figurehead of, you know, quote-unquote killing movies, even if it's all of the companies together that have done it. So there is something tidy. There is something like Aaron Sorkin-esque about Netflix being the one to get Warner Brothers.

• 9:55Sean Fennessey?

  This episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by Amazon Prime. What pairs with a good comedy? The cozy blanket arriving with Prime. What pairs with a nail-biting thriller? Snacks arriving with Prime. What pairs with big game on Prime Video? That new couch arriving with Prime. Whatever feeling you're after, Prime helps bring it to life with great entertainment and fast shipping that delivers what the moment calls for. From streaming to fast shipping, it's on Prime. I totally agree. I think the other shoe that is dropping that we didn't know was going to drop on this Monday morning, but on Friday night and especially on Saturday night, every person I talked to said there's a 0% chance this deal goes through.

• 10:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 10:34Sean Fennessey?

  Zero.

• 10:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 10:35Sean Fennessey?

  That between the antitrust organizations in Europe, the Trump administration, people thinking before Bloomberg's reporting that Ted Sarandos had spoken with Donald Trump, that he would favor Paramount, the incredible-

• 10:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Let's, you know, let's spotlight that. Lucas Shaw reporting for a second, which is that Ted Sarandos, you know, has been at Mar-a-Lago. He was at the White House in November. There is obviously a difference between like the coalition of Saudi money and Jared Kushner money and, you know, David Ellison's and the Ellison family's like demonstrated history. But like, and also, this is what executives do, they cozy up to administrations. But like, Sarandos and, Sarandos and Trump have, quote, "kept in touch," according to Bloomberg.

• 11:22Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, there's no way for a deal like this to work without any sort of relationship, especially given the way that Trump navigates these, these kinds of mergers. And so there was like a real skepticism, a real hidden skepticism, because you can't support it. Like, we're just two people talking. But you can't, you can't get on a podcast or go jump into a newspaper and be like, there's a 0% chance this is happening. But that is how people that I spoke to felt about this.

• 11:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 11:46Sean Fennessey?

  Now that seems even more true, if it can be, because of the hostile bid. And there was a lot of suggestion that a hostile takeover was very much a possibility as early as Friday morning. But now we're in this, this fugue state where we can look at what Netflix has done and we can say, okay, this is a fascinating strategy.

• 12:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:05Sean Fennessey?

  On the one hand, if they win this bid and the hostile takeover fails, they get the best, you know, most prestigious TV studio in the history of TV, basically. And they get to potentially plug it right into the Netflix system. And I'm sure Chris and Andy will spend a lot of time talking about that this morning on the watch. And then they get to take Warner Brothers. Now, it's not just that they get to take the apparatus of Warner Brothers, they get everything that is Warner Brothers.

• 12:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 12:32Sean Fennessey?

  So that includes Batman and Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings and Barbie and anything else you want that has been produced there. So this isn't just the home of Christopher Nolan and Clint Eastwood and Stanley Kubrick.

• 12:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 12:44Sean Fennessey?

  It is the home of all of these characters. And the one thing Netflix hasn't been able to do.

• 12:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 12:49Sean Fennessey?

  Is develop and continue IP for the long term. So if they get all of that stuff, it's kind of game over in Hollywood, at least in this particular sense of like streaming first being the most important thing. If Paramount gets it, it just becomes a bigger studio and it just becomes this continuation, I think, of what has been happening in Hollywood over the last 10 years. Disney buys Fox for $71 billion. Amazon buys MGM for $8 billion. Skydance merges with Paramount for $8 billion. Those are like classical consolidations in a shrinking business.

• 13:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 13:26Sean Fennessey?

  This is a checkmate. And you don't think so?

• 13:32Amanda Dobbins?

  No, I, yeah, I mean, it is, of course. You know, I did find like the hand wringing over like the sanctity of the DC Universe's like franchising and like, you know, whatever.

• 13:44Sean Fennessey?

  Who will control Clayface?

• 13:46Amanda Dobbins?

  What are we gonna do with Harry Potter? Well, Warner Brothers is already making another TV show. Listen, and also Universal owns those rights. Like there are amusement parks. I do, I understand that the IP means like money and merchandising and growth potential for Netflix in avenues that it doesn't have now, which then powers whatever else it wants to do, which is keep you watching Netflix on your streaming, on your phone, instead of going to movie theaters or watching YouTube. But, you know, again, that's like, what will happen to Batman is not like, it's gonna be okay.

• 14:28Sean Fennessey?

  To me, that's more just that's like the noose tightening moment.

• 14:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 14:32Sean Fennessey?

  Because the one thing that Netflix couldn't really get over the line was they don't even have enough properties to consider opening a theme park.

• 14:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 14:38Sean Fennessey?

  And now if they want to open the Netflix theme park that has Batman and Barbie rides on it.

• 14:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 14:43Sean Fennessey?

  They probably, I mean, I guess Batman is licensed right now to Six Flags or whatever, but over time, that is something that they'll be able to do. And then that allows them to become. I guess like Disney and 1970s Paramount and 1980s Fox all at the same time. And that's really powerful.

• 15:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 15:01Sean Fennessey?

  And to like a fascinating and somewhat crippling degree for everything else around it. Like Disney is still Disney.

• 15:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:11Sean Fennessey?

  Universal is significantly wounded in the streaming wars, but is still

• 15:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 15:17Sean Fennessey?

  one of the most successful, consistently successful studios in Hollywood and seems to be on fine ground.

• 15:23Sean Fennessey?

  Sony, Lionsgate and Paramount are much smaller now.

• 15:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 15:29Sean Fennessey?

  Much smaller. Sony's had a particularly tricky couple of years. Lionsgate has fallen way back from the Hunger Games era.

• 15:37Sean Fennessey?

  Paramount, we'll see. They're going to spend no matter what, but it's going to be a little bit like a ripple in an ocean relative to what it could have been if they, if they are able to come back and hostilely take over this company. And so it's going to feel like Netflix and Disney run everything. And then I guess to a lesser extent, Amazon and Apple as these companies that are

• 16:00Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean.

• 16:00Sean Fennessey?

  participating, but maybe it's not essential or ultimately consequential to their businesses, whether they have success in this realm.

• 16:07Amanda Dobbins?

  I, that was the case for Sony and Lionsgate, no matter what.

• 16:11Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 16:11Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, no matter, like, no matter who buys Warner Brothers.

• 16:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Lionsgate has been limping along and Sony has been relying on its Netflix first deal in order to public that, you know, it's, it's had some theatrical hits and also gave away K-pop Demon Hunters to Netflix. So, you know, I, it's bad, but I don't think that this deal, this deal is like reflecting the state of what's going on as opposed to the cause of some of it.

• 16:40Sean Fennessey?

  I think that's right on the money. Um, let's talk about theatrical. This is the thing that. Um, most meaningfully affects me.

• 16:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 16:49Sean Fennessey?

  And, and you as well.

• 16:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, no, there's one more, actually, that more meaningfully affects you.

• 16:54Sean Fennessey?

  I have a lot of thoughts about physical media.

• 16:56Amanda Dobbins?

  I do know.

• 16:56Sean Fennessey?

  I've done my homework.

• 16:57Amanda Dobbins?

  We'll talk about it. Well, you've done some of your homework. I have some questions for you.

• 17:00Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, okay. Uh, theatrical.

• 17:02Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 17:03Sean Fennessey?

  That was the first thing that Ted Sarandos was pressed on on Friday morning during a conference call with investors, and he had some thoughts. He said, "My pushback has been mostly in the fact of the long exclusive windows, which we don't really think are that consumer friendly." He's referring, of course, to the fact that when films open in theaters, they usually run, for Warner Brothers, 30, 40 days.

• 17:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:26Sean Fennessey?

  15 years ago, they ran 70, 80, 100 days.

• 17:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:30Sean Fennessey?

  40 years ago, they ran nine months.

• 17:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay. Okay, grandpa.

• 17:34Sean Fennessey?

  They're shrinking. They're shrinking. My point is they're shrinking. They're shrinking. When I was alive in 1987, a film could play for seven years. And now 12 days and then on to Netflix. And, and, you know, his comments indicate that over time, that is what would happen. He's not confirming the fact that, but, so this has a very obvious effect, right?

• 17:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 17:57Sean Fennessey?

  The effect of this is, if you start making the windows 14 days. So you open a film, you open Batman 2. Matt Reeves is Batman 2.

• 18:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:06Sean Fennessey?

  And it plays for two.

• 18:06Amanda Dobbins?

  My most anticipated film. He finally finished the script, you know?

• 18:10Sean Fennessey?

  Right. Who knows? Maybe it won't be that film. Maybe it'll be another film in, in a few years.

• 18:15Sean Fennessey?

  That movie plays for two weeks.

• 18:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:17Sean Fennessey?

  The diehards, of course, go. They go. They see it in Dolby. They see it in IMAX. They see it on 70 millimeter. They see it in 40x.

• 18:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:24Sean Fennessey?

  You know, they, they, the large premium formats are rolling. But Joe and Jane moviegoer are like, two, two weeks and then on Netflix.

• 18:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 18:34Sean Fennessey?

  The same way they did with Frankenstein, you know, the same way that they did, the same way they are doing with Knives Out. The same way that they are maybe not even doing with Jay Kelly.

• 18:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:43Sean Fennessey?

  And they get in the habit of saying, "I'm good. I'll wait." Because it's logical to wait.

• 18:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:49Sean Fennessey?

  It's logical to, to, to not spend $118.

• 18:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 18:55Sean Fennessey?

  Carve out a whole night?

• 18:56Amanda Dobbins?

  So Matt Reeves is the Batman 2 is an interesting example because this also happened to Matt Reeves is the Batman 1. And that was because of Project Popcorn and COVID. But I, you know, you could see the Batman very soon after it was.

• 19:14Sean Fennessey?

  It was not day and date.

• 19:15Amanda Dobbins?

  It wasn't day and date.

• 19:16Sean Fennessey?

  It was more quickly.

• 19:17Amanda Dobbins?

  It was, it was, you know, the window was closed and it was more of an experiment in trying to get things to people because of the way that COVID and theaters changed availability. So I, I know, I like, I don't want to be, I don't agree with Ted Sarandos, but I do think that like, oh, we must protect the windows. The windows are the most important thing. It's like a lost cause and I don't think it's productive to pretend like movie theaters are in a good spot and the business is working and that the, the customer should bear the

• 20:01Amanda Dobbins?

  responsibility of fixing it because.

• 20:03Sean Fennessey?

  I agree with you.

• 20:04Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, it is, it's just like, things have changed and it is so expensive and it's so often not a good experience and like, the cat is out of the bag. So I, I do think that Netflix cutting down the window will exacerbate and speed up something that was already going to happen. And I think it also, my main concern is that it then, if you're making films and deciding what films to make based on the fact that they will have a limited theatrical reaction and then be on Netflix, it changes the type of film that you make and it changes.

• 20:40Sean Fennessey?

  How so do you think?

• 20:41Amanda Dobbins?

  We have seen that. Well, I, you know, I think it changes.

• 20:47Amanda Dobbins?

  The type of filmmakers that you give a huge budget to to do a big, you know, like a big theatrical run. It's got to have quote unquote, like, event potential, whether it is, you know, Batman and IP or whether it's-

• 21:04Sean Fennessey?

  A movie that can open really big.

• 21:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Like a big spectacle, which again, that is already the trend across the studios that we're seeing in, in films, because that is the only way, as we understand, that you can get the average person to the movie theater. But I think you just get more polarity, right?

• 21:22Sean Fennessey?

  We're gonna see a test run of this with Greta Gerwig's Narnia film. That will be actually the first proper test, because that will have an exclusive, exclusive, limited IMAX theatrical run. And that will indicate maybe somewhat what the appetite is for that kind of experience, even though you know in three or four weeks it will hit the service.

• 21:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, and that's also like, we've talked about this a bunch. Like, why is Greta Gerwig making a Narnia movie? I mean, she wants to, and if she wants to, that's great. And she makes a lot of money, but that is-

• 21:49Sean Fennessey?

  You know my theory about why?

• 21:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Why?

• 21:50Sean Fennessey?

  Is that she is consistently exploring her youth and adolescence and her fascinations in those times, which I think is very common for many great filmmakers.

• 21:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I do also, but that is, that's quote unquote IP, right? That is, and so that is a filmmaker who I have responded to more. Listen, I loved Barbie, but my rankings are still Lady Bird number one, Little Women number two by a smidgen, and then Barbie. And then, so you already see, like, beloved independent generational filmmakers moving towards IP in order to get like the big Netflix release as opposed to their smaller budget stuff. Now, that's not to say that the next one, you know, Netflix does have a history of letting filmmakers we really love make their, you know, blank check movies.

• 22:35Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 22:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Sometimes those Blank Check movies aren't as good as the other movies, which is another issue.

• 22:41Sean Fennessey?

  You know, I thought about this recently. I delivered a tribute to the mid-level studio executive some years ago, not the top studio executive, the mid-level development executive.

• 22:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 22:54Sean Fennessey?

  The person who works specifically on movies with filmmakers. Now, these figures are historically maligned. They are people who get in the way of creative people, don't let them do the things that they want to do. They tend to be surrogates for the audience and what the audience will respond to. And sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes they're right. And sometimes the friction in that work creates good films. And one thing that you see at Netflix is in a tremendous amount of creative freedom for filmmakers when they're working on these projects that you're describing, so much so that I find that sometimes those films lose their way. There's a lot of discussion of like, what were the best Netflix movies over the last seven or eight or nine years?

• 23:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 23:31Sean Fennessey?

  You know?

• 23:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Marriage Story.

• 23:32Sean Fennessey?

  There are.

• 23:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Roma. The end.

• 23:34Sean Fennessey?

  There are good films. There are more good films than that, but.

• 23:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Triple Frontier.

• 23:38Sean Fennessey?

  But it's not as many as you would imagine, given this carte blanche attitude that they give to artists. Yeah, there's a bunch. There's.

• 23:46Amanda Dobbins?

  That's four. I got four. Almost one full hit.

• 23:49Sean Fennessey?

  Just this year, they've made a bunch of good movies.

• 23:50Amanda Dobbins?

  That's true. Or they acquired them, in the case of Train Dreams.

• 23:54Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 23:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Let's rephrase. Let's say Notes are good. We love Notes.

• 23:58Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 23:59Amanda Dobbins?

  I think. Within reason.

• 24:02Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, I think boundaries historically are good in the movie business. You know, this isn't painting. Like, it is a commercial art form, so.

• 24:08Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think that we need to be like defending executives on this podcast. I just would like to.

• 24:12Sean Fennessey?

  I think I'm indicating.

• 24:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I personally would like to distance myself from that.

• 24:15Sean Fennessey?

  It's another potential outcome, though, of if this, in fact, transpires, that you continue to like lose another part of the business, that even if it wasn't the most glamorous or interesting or even defensible part of the business, did exist and made movies the way that they were for so long. And it's one of the reasons why movies are not the same as they were. So that's one impact. The other thing about the theatrical aspect of it is, is that. You know, Sarandos has had this interesting stretch of kind of contradicting himself, you know, and I don't think it's purposeful. I think there's like an evolution in the business that they're pursuing. For years, they said they wouldn't do live. For years, they said they wouldn't do sports.

• 24:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 24:54Sean Fennessey?

  You know, for years, they said they wouldn't, they would only do binge drops and they wouldn't change their release model. For years, they said they wouldn't put anything in theaters. For years, they said they wouldn't do things like IMAX. They do all that stuff now. That's all happening now. So, as I said when we talked about this on the sentimental value episode, it wouldn't stun me if in a year Netflix bought Regal. You know, like that isn't, if the laws were able to change and studios could own it, there's so much business and money to be made in another Barbie movie, in a Batman movie. There's a lot of money to be made in that business still. Even though things have changed and they're not as good as they used to be, you know, look at Zootopia 2 right now. I mean, $900 million in two weekends.

• 25:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 25:34Sean Fennessey?

  That's incredibly, incredibly powerful. So, there's a world where he once again contradicts himself. As recently as 2024, he said that he thought that Barbie and Oppenheimer would be as big a phenomenon if they went straight to streaming.

• 25:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, sure.

• 25:49Sean Fennessey?

  Like, that's just a crazy thing to say out loud.

• 25:51Amanda Dobbins?

  You know that you can't trust anything that an executive says at all times in the industry. They are like, getting paid more than you to lie to you. Like, that's fine.

• 26:01Sean Fennessey?

  He's paid more than I have. That's not fair.

• 26:05Amanda Dobbins?

  That's okay. Um, I, I, I think that you're right that they have consistently updated their business, you know, and I have wondered, you know, the, the thing that we have not really said in this is that movie theaters are not really Netflix's rival at this point. It's YouTube.

• 26:26Sean Fennessey?

  That's right.

• 26:27Amanda Dobbins?

  And they are just trying to get as many people as possible to look at their streaming service instead of YouTube. Otherwise, their stock goes down and they can't pay back all of the people that invested billions of dollars in them. So... I am beginning to wonder whether like, there's gotta be a ceiling on the number of subscribers that they can reasonably expect. And so, once they hit that, they have to keep adding new revenue streams.

• 26:56Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 26:56Amanda Dobbins?

  So, maybe this isn't, you know, a way for them to like, start making money, whether it's through amusement parks or through the theatrical. And they just need additional sources of income because they aren't gonna be able to keep growing subscriber-wise.

• 27:13Sean Fennessey?

  In a quiet moment of positivity over the weekend, that is the exact thought that I had. Which is, it's gonna be impossible to go from 300 million subscribers, which they currently have. In addition to tacking on whatever modest incremental bump you're gonna get from adding HBO's 130 million, most of which already have the service.

• 27:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 27:31Sean Fennessey?

  You're not gonna get to 700 million subscribers. Like, that's not something that's going to happen. So inevitably, there is, there is a ceiling. There is a plateau moment. And in the past, they've been told that they've plateaued, and then they've gone up again. They've added new items, new offerings. This is, this is like, one of the shrewdest entertainment companies in the history of the human life. Like, they truly consistently are like, we have another thing that will help us continue to grow. And this is the, you know, the, maybe the biggest step yet. But you're right, that they're gonna have to find other ways to make money. And, and movie theaters, at least for now, could be that. I don't think it's like, the long-term solution.

• 28:07Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 28:08Sean Fennessey?

  To, to the point that you were making before. Like, we have been watching this slowly, if not die off, just evolve into a different kind of, and much smaller business. I think back to May 2024. I did my like, solo into-camera thing post-Furiosa box office weekend.

• 28:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:23Sean Fennessey?

  And I, I was trying to not freak out in that, in that essay. I was trying to say, let's just keep our head downs and like, go see movies. It's a little harder. To send that message now, to just be like, just keep your head down and just keep see, just keep supporting films, keep, keep watching movies?

• 28:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. Well, to this audience, to people who have listened this far into a podcast and who care about films and going to see movies and who are cinephiles, they're not, we're not gonna like, single-handedly save the business because we're, we're the, the niche market. And money can be made off of us, but yeah, so I-

• 29:00Sean Fennessey?

  Seth Rogen in the studio meme, you know, I'm single-handedly saving movies.

• 29:05Amanda Dobbins?

  But I do think if you care about movies and you like going to movies, sure, keep, keep going to movies. Like, I, I don't, I don't think that's terribly bad advice. What else, what else would you save to the aspiring cinephile to help fight, you know, the, the M and A raiders?

• 29:22Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, you, you will not win, so-

• 29:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 29:25Sean Fennessey?

  Try, don't worry about winning. I think just support the things that you like is obviously the best thing to do. Um, it did, this did get, have me thinking a little bit sociologically and anthropologically, though, about what Netflix is and how they have gotten to this place.

• 29:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 29:41Sean Fennessey?

  And I do think that that's worth exploring a little bit. And because I, to me, it is really about this soft exploitation of convenience. And, and the theatrical experience is connected to that. Because originally, when this company came around, I was very excited because the idea of getting three DVDs of a vast library-

• 30:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:04Sean Fennessey?

  -of films at my home, in the mail, without having to leave my home, and I could keep them for as long as I want. That was an amazing service.

• 30:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 30:14Sean Fennessey?

  It did kill video stores, which is something I cared about, but they were already dying. And this just sped up that process. Likewise, binge watching, 12 hours of your favorite show all at once in one night, and you can watch it, and before I had a child, I would comfortably watch six hours of television in a row. I will never do that again.

• 30:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 30:35Sean Fennessey?

  But that was a fascinating thing to get. I think we're all kind of burnt out on that model now, and Netflix even seems to be a little bit burnt out on that model.

• 30:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:43Sean Fennessey?

  But that was another convenience that was extraordinary. I don't have to, not only do I not have commercials, but I don't have to wait. Like, I can just click through to the next episode. And that, that was convenience. That was an exploitation of something that we, we didn't even really know we wanted or could have. And they found it.

• 31:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that that is putting a little bit too much responsibility again on us as.

• 31:11Sean Fennessey?

  I think humans are weak, man. I'm weak.

• 31:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, but I think corporations suck. Like, I would still like to blame the corporation rather than the human being. Like, what you described for TV.

• 31:20Sean Fennessey?

  I am using the word exploitation.

• 31:22Amanda Dobbins?

  We don't care about, I personally don't care about the art of television. Like, I enjoy it, but it's not, you know, cinema is the art to me. So to me, they just like made it a better experience until they didn't, you know? It's like if they made a good show that was easier to watch, I was like, great, that sounds really. The Crown, loving it, you know, at least the first five seasons. Don't know what happened in season six.

• 31:46Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 31:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Um, I mean, it just, it was really, they caught up with the modern times.

• 31:50Sean Fennessey?

  I'll never know.

• 31:51Amanda Dobbins?

  But I, they just, they made the customer experience better. Like, and I think that trying to, I think ignoring that does not, is part of the problem. It's not going to help us get people back to what we want.

• 32:09Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's reasonable to ask the question, did they make the customer experience for movies better, though? Because they, they, they did, they dramatically increased the convenience of movie delivery for new films. And, you know, like, Ava DuVernay talked about this a lot in the first half of the huge Netflix rise. She talked a lot about how in a lot of communities in America, there just are not movie theaters. Or there's not a convenient way to get to a movie theater, or an affordable way to get to a movie theater. And so a studio like Netflix that prizes coming to streaming first for, you know, X dollars per month, is a way to just deliver more art more cheaply and more easily to a lot more people.

• 32:50Amanda Dobbins?

  I think we have a lot of listeners who feel that way.

• 32:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 32:53Amanda Dobbins?

  That, and it's not because they prefer watching a movie at home, it's because it's a lot harder to see a lot of these titles, you know, smaller things. Train Dreams is a great example, which would be like a very small, windowed, limited release if it were Sony Pictures Classics.

• 33:11Sean Fennessey?

  Right.

• 33:12Amanda Dobbins?

  And instead is available to everyone.

• 33:15Sean Fennessey?

  True. The knock on effect of that is that you, sure, you didn't drive to the movie theater and pay $72 plus parking, plus get a sitter, plus your craft cocktail and your caramel popcorn to check out what you hope is not a shitty Ryan Reynolds movie.

• 33:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 33:36Sean Fennessey?

  But then you just get to watch the shitty Ryan Reynolds movie on Netflix at home. But the lack of experience and the sedentary quality of watching things at home.

• 33:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 33:47Sean Fennessey?

  It minimizes its emotional impact.

• 33:49Amanda Dobbins?

  You just yadda yaddered like 150 to 200 dollars though, which is like, and an incredibly material part of this. Like, it is wildly expensive to go to the movies. I cannot believe how much a bucket of popcorn costs.

• 34:02Sean Fennessey?

  But this is not like a public trust, it's a hobby. Like, if you want to participate in the hobby, it costs money. Like, it's as simple as that.

• 34:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, but it costs $25 for a Netflix subscription versus 200 a pop?

• 34:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, you're making my point. This is the soft exploitation of convenience. That's what it is.

• 34:17Amanda Dobbins?

  It's also just, it's economics. People don't have $200 to go. It's so, it's crazy how expensive it is.

• 34:24Sean Fennessey?

  I totally understand.

• 34:25Amanda Dobbins?

  And the more, like, the more convenient or the more affordable Netflix got, like, the more expensive movies have gotten. Like, what kind of business is that? Like, here, now your water's $12. Like, it's, you know, I understand, there are a lot of things at play, but it's really, really, really expensive. And so are groceries, and so are a lot of other things. And it's just like, it is a bad business. They can't get out of like their leases, like, they can't get out of their lot of stuff, but you really cannot discount it. It is fucking expensive.

• 34:54Sean Fennessey?

  I agree. I'm not disagreeing. You're making my point for me. I'm not disagreeing with you.

• 34:58Amanda Dobbins?

  But like, I don't think that's like exploiting convenience. I think that's just like a reality of, you know.

• 35:02Sean Fennessey?

  Of course it is. What do you mean?

• 35:04Amanda Dobbins?

  I think that's condescending. I think that that's because people like don't have that much money.

• 35:09Sean Fennessey?

  I think you're misunderstanding how systems work then. Like, to me, this is what every smart business does, is that they come in and they look at what people don't have, and they try to give them what they want for less money than they think. The thing is... If a deal like this goes through, let's check in on what a Netflix subscription costs in five years.

• 35:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 35:28Sean Fennessey?

  Because it won't be what it costs right now. And over time, they will continue to shift the financials to make this like cable television was 10, 20 years ago. When you would wake up one day and open up your cable TV bill and it was $250. And now, I remember that being incredibly bracing for my parents. And they were like, when did this happen and how did this happen?

• 35:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 35:48Sean Fennessey?

  And then all of a sudden, it became, well, you have the, you know, standard package and you have the movie package and all you need broadband wifi. And also, we have this additional channel that you might want and there's an upsell there for $12.99. This is what will happen. Like, this is the way that they like essentially reconnect the revenue stream over time.

• 36:05Amanda Dobbins?

  That's true. And that's true of every single Silicon Valley business model where they give you something very cheaply and then they ratchet the price up over time. I just don't think that you can like, the movie theaters have not responded in any meaningful way. And I like, it's not defensible to ask people to spend $200 to go to the, like, it's just, that's fine. It can be a hobby for some people, but that's not viable.

• 36:26Sean Fennessey?

  Mm-hmm. I, I agree with you. I'm not, I'm not disagreeing. I mean, the thing is that there are still a lot of people who are willing to go. It's just that they're not willing to go

• 36:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 36:34Sean Fennessey?

  30 times a year. They're willing to go five times a year. And so, I don't know if there's a way where the business itself can kind of reorient where that is allowable, you know, like where

• 36:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:44Sean Fennessey?

  Per, to your point about like leases and this like established economy of multiplexes.

• 36:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 36:49Sean Fennessey?

  That thing that grew over time from 1985 through 2005, that is not manageable. And so, I do think you'll see like a knock on effect over time if Netflix goes through. If Paramount doesn't go through, it's kind of interesting, like what happens to theatrical? Because Paramount will start making, even though they'll make fewer movies when they were two separate studios.

• 37:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 37:09Sean Fennessey?

  Their, their focus is going to be on theatrical. You know, that's, that, you know, pumping up Paramount Plus and, and making theatrical work is kind of a core part of the business. It is the core part of the business.

• 37:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 37:21Sean Fennessey?

  Whether or not they can be successful with that, like, maybe that actually augurs even more failure in the theatrical business if their movies don't work. We don't know, there's not a ton of history of Skydance having great taste beyond Tom Cruise movies.

• 37:31Amanda Dobbins?

  That's true. And even those, it's really, you know, Top Gun Maverick, they sat on it. They would, they would not release it during the pandemic. They were right in that one.

• 37:40Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 37:40Amanda Dobbins?

  And then, every single Mission Impossible sense has been sort of soft.

• 37:44Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 37:44Amanda Dobbins?

  And has lost its IMAX screens pretty quickly to another, another big name director.

• 37:50Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I so there's no, you could make the case that if Netflix is true to their word, which is that they're going to keep Warner Brothers Film Studio as a separate and distinct business and release their movies in theaters for, let's say, 10 years. I'm not saying they're going to do that, but let's just say for the sake of conversation, that that could be a better outcome. That there's a case that that's a better outcome from a pure film-going experience.

• 38:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, but then the world's on fire in many other ways because what it means of who owns both movie studios and then CNN and everything else.

• 38:25Sean Fennessey?

  So in the hostile takeover bid, David Ellison and family corralled the Saudis, the Qataris, Emirates, and Jared Kushner's hedge fund to chip in money for over $100 billion hostile takeover bid.

• 38:45Sean Fennessey?

  Getting a strong thumbs down.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, I didn't mean to distract.

• 38:47Sean Fennessey?

  Getting a strong thumbs down.

• 38:51Sean Fennessey?

  So who have you called to raise money?

• 38:56Amanda Dobbins?

  To be a part of the hostile bid or for my own?

• 38:58Sean Fennessey?

  You're independent on bid.

• 38:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Do you feel that you are more of a merger and acquisition, just, you know?

• 39:02Sean Fennessey?

  A merger or an acquisition?

• 39:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, just spiritually.

• 39:06Sean Fennessey?

  I think we'd all like to be an acquisition and we are all a merger, you know? Unless you really can be an acquirer, then you're a merger.

• 39:12Amanda Dobbins?

  I called business Chris Ryan and we're just going to start our own network and livestream movie studio where we release the new Geese albums and then analyze what's going on with the various funds on a real-time basis.

• 39:27Sean Fennessey?

  That sounds like a good show.

• 39:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, but it'll also be on IMAX.

• 39:31Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I don't, I, the ideal outcome remains what we said a few weeks ago, which is some person emerges from the shadows, some centibillionaire and says, I have made my billions in shipping and I love film and I want film to continue on in just the way it did.

• 39:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't think that it should be subject to tariffs at the ports.

• 39:56Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that's a whole other story. And that person needs to be cozied up to the Trump administration, but also very agreeable to us politically. So this magical, impossible person will come along and that's just not going to happen. Okay.

• 40:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know, can you run it out until?

• 40:15Amanda Dobbins?

  No, this deal has to close before 2028, right?

• 40:19Sean Fennessey?

  It does because there is, well, there is a $5 billion penalty for Netflix. If after two and a half years plus six months, the deal doesn't close, which is right up to

• 40:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, so three.

• 40:29Sean Fennessey?

  The nose. I think there's like a six month like waiting period that's indicated in the, in the, in the deal offer from Netflix. But, you know, $5 billion is an insane penalty. But I actually think that Netflix is really smart. And the reason why I said it was a win-win earlier is because, yeah, sure, maybe they get this. Maybe they get this and they, they, they end the streaming wars officially, right? They rise to victory. They slowly take over the movie watching experience in America.

• 40:56Sean Fennessey?

  Or maybe they don't. Maybe they do end up paying the penalty, but two and a half to three years go by and Warner Brothers exists in this kind of

• 41:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Limbo?

• 41:05Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, where they're like, they're making their movies and everything that's been greenlit and everything that's franchised and safe is going forward. But Mike DeLuca and Pam Abdi are not authorized to fund one battle after another. And maybe they can't make a deal that Ryan Coogler has an ownership stake in centers after 25 years because there's going to be an acquisition and that goes against the precedent that's expected for their future owner. Maybe they don't look to acquire or merge with another company. That could be a better situation six to 12 months from now because they're in this holding pattern of evaluation by the government and, and other corporations. So it kind of just kneecaps WB for a while.

• 41:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. I mean, WB has already kneecapped itself. Let's just

• 41:50Sean Fennessey?

  But look at what it did to the movies this year, you know?

• 41:52Amanda Dobbins?

  I do understand that they're doing, yeah.

• 41:54Sean Fennessey?

  They, they were able to at least take risks because they were independent.

• 41:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 41:57Sean Fennessey?

  And say what you want about David Zaslove, I don't think he's done a very good job at all over the last few years.

• 42:03Amanda Dobbins?

  The high commander of the Christmas adventurers himself, Southwest Division.

• 42:07Sean Fennessey?

  Very much so. And, but, but he did hire Mike and Pam and they did make those movies, you know? And I, and he, he, he kept Casey Bloys in his job and HBO continues to be great. Like they continue to be HBO despite everything that's fucking happened over the last 20 years. It's still like, yeah, we got tasks. Chair company, we still are making the coolest shows.

• 42:26Amanda Dobbins?

  That's true. Creatively, the output has been positive, but then he has driven the financials that make the creative possible off a cliff while paying himself a tremendous amount of money.

• 42:39Sean Fennessey?

  A lot of the advantage has been pivoted in his direction. There's some speculation over the last few days, specifically that he has been lobbying for a role in whatever new company takes on his business. And that that could be a factor. That is just something that I have heard and can either confirm nor deny. The HBO part, very quickly, since we are neither experts, nor are we the TV podcast. But it is interesting because I don't really understand the idea of keeping those businesses separate. And we've heard that as well, that HBO would be its own entity.

• 43:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 43:10Sean Fennessey?

  But why would you want to bounce around from one streaming service to another? Would HBO just become a tile inside of Netflix?

• 43:16Amanda Dobbins?

  I think there's been a lot of discussion recently about how Amazon uses the tiles for all the other streaming services. And that's been a boon to their business.

• 43:26Amanda Dobbins?

  And, you know, another revenue stream, like how many?

• 43:29Sean Fennessey?

  So it would be an add-on?

• 43:31Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I think so.

• 43:32Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, it gets you more money to the point I was making about, you know, the bump in subscription rate. But I wonder, do you think it will tilt Netflix's programming strategy towards more like basic cable style? Like more reality, more sports, more TV?

• 43:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, it's already tilted that way.

• 43:50Sean Fennessey?

  It is, but like, do you need adolescence on Netflix if you have HBO? Do you, because you're not, those two companies are no longer bidding against each other for the property. So will anything that is quote unquote, "good," will Department Q go on Netflix?

• 44:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Or will it, I, I think, I mean, I wonder, I do wonder whether HBO gets like slightly more breadth. I mean, their, their mandate, and remember when they were also in charge of making the Max shows? Sex lives of college girls, never forget, had a great time.

• 44:20Sean Fennessey?

  Pauline Schalamet.

• 44:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, but so, so their, their breadth of programming has shifted depending on who's in charge and what they're programming for. And I, you know, I believe in Casey Boyce's ability to maneuver appropriately.

• 44:34Sean Fennessey?

  I do as well. More podcasts on the, on the platform, you think?

• 44:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Don't even get me started.

• 44:39Sean Fennessey?

  Let's talk about physical media.

• 44:41Amanda Dobbins?

  I'd love to.

• 44:43Sean Fennessey?

  Um, okay.

• 44:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 44:46Sean Fennessey?

  I'm fine.

• 44:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Good.

• 44:48Sean Fennessey?

  I'm fine.

• 44:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 44:50Sean Fennessey?

  I'm gonna lay it out for you.

• 44:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 44:52Sean Fennessey?

  Netflix does not have a physical media operation.

• 44:54Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm aware.

• 44:54Sean Fennessey?

  They have licensed a select handful of titles to the Criterion Collection.

• 44:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 45:00Sean Fennessey?

  That's it.

• 45:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 45:01Sean Fennessey?

  That's it. This flies completely in the face of their primary business model.

• 45:05Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 45:06Sean Fennessey?

  Which is streaming.

• 45:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 45:08Sean Fennessey?

  So.

• 45:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, their current primary business model.

• 45:11Sean Fennessey?

  Correct.

• 45:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Because once upon a time, their business model, as you noted, was letting you keep three DVDs in your house for as long as possible.

• 45:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, distributing but not producing

• 45:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 45:20Sean Fennessey?

  physical media.

• 45:22Sean Fennessey?

  Five years ago, a company was formed called Studio Distribution Services. Are you familiar with this company?

• 45:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I read your outline.

• 45:28Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. So it's an American home entertainment company that's co-owned 50/50 between Universal and Warner Brothers.

• 45:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 45:35Sean Fennessey?

  This is the company that produces all the discs and distributes all the discs for those two studios. In recent years, they've also brought on other partners. Sony now works with SDS. Neon now works with SDS.

• 45:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 45:47Sean Fennessey?

  Shout Factory, which is one of the very best American distributors. Your beautiful Bring It On 4K was made by Shout Factory.

• 45:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Did Shout Factory also do the five hours of trailers?

• 45:59Sean Fennessey?

  No.

• 45:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, who was that?

• 46:00Sean Fennessey?

  That's Fun City Editions.

• 46:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, okay.

• 46:01Sean Fennessey?

  That's a much smaller company, but also very good. Anyway, Shout Factory also just completely, they closed their own website and they now use the distribution services website groove.com that SDS owns. A lot of the American production of major studio Blu-ray and 4Ks

• 46:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 46:16Sean Fennessey?

  is going to SDS. 50% of it is owned by Warner Brothers. So the question here is, will that continue? Warner Brothers and Universal has a 10-year agreement to do this together.

• 46:29Amanda Dobbins?

  When does it expire?

• 46:31Sean Fennessey?

  In 2030.

• 46:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 46:33Sean Fennessey?

  So you can make the case that maybe they just run it out until the completion of this deal?

• 46:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 46:37Sean Fennessey?

  You can make the case that this is a new business model for Netflix as well?

• 46:41Amanda Dobbins?

  I have thought about that. As I said to you when this was first announced and you said, oh no, what about my Blu-rays? You know, they do have a history of merchandising in other areas. Meghan Markle has a Jam and Homewares company that is underwritten entirely by Netflix. When you order the jam, it says produced by, and then it's the liter- it's the Sunset Boulevard address of Netflix. Like, they are making these. There are Stranger Things, you know, sweatshirts and Furbies and whatever.

• 47:17Sean Fennessey?

  At the Egyptian, next door, the Egyptian Theater in Los Angeles, there is a Netflix store where you can buy their beer.

• 47:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Exactly. So they are making things to be sold. So there's no reason to say that if it could be a financial boon to them, that they would like be against it. And I do think that they are in need of money.

• 47:39Sean Fennessey?

  I agree with you.

• 47:39Amanda Dobbins?

  But it does undercut, I know, they just, they want you on your phone.

• 47:43Sean Fennessey?

  It's not just that, though. There's one other component of this that I think is notable in terms of what this deal means. Part of the reason why Netflix doesn't like theaters or want theaters is because they have to share money with theaters. The Warner Brothers deal is a way to continue to centralize and kind of like significantly close the loop on who gets to participate in the revenue generated by Netflix. Warner Brothers has to split 50/50 or 60/40 on most movies that go into movie theaters. If you don't go to a movie theaters, you keep all the profits for yourself in terms of the revenue generated by the memberships and subscriptions. Blu-rays likewise, if this is a company that has owned 50/50, I don't know what the dynamics are between who gets what money from what Blu-ray

• 48:24Sean Fennessey?

  production, but this is another partner. They're closing all deals on partners. They're no longer going to be licensing any of the content from Warner Brothers because they're going to own it. Like, over time, they're not going to need to license very much at all if they have Warner Brothers. So it does make me a little bit skeptical.

• 48:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Though they may then keep licensing out the Warner Brothers stuff. That's been in discussion.

• 48:46Sean Fennessey?

  That's an open question. Yes, that's an open question whether or not they would then license their content to other companies. They've never done that before. You can't watch a Netflix show on any other service right now, as far as I know. And- So that would be a change as well. We're talking about a lot, a world where like a lot of changes. If, if no, if no changes happen, if it's just like, everything's going under Netflix and there's no more movies going into movie theaters. I'm gonna freak out.

• 49:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 49:11Sean Fennessey?

  I actually, I actually am gonna freak out.

• 49:12Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure. I like, I will too. It will be in a different way.

• 49:16Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 49:16Amanda Dobbins?

  But, you know, that would suck.

• 49:18Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I will go walk into the desert.

• 49:21Amanda Dobbins?

  It, that would really suck. I, I mean, I do, my question for you about physical media is less about your ability to have steel books in your garage. And more about what those smaller labels do in terms of preservation and things that have historically been buried in libraries and archives being available and how that works long-term. Like you can't, to your point, you can't get a Netflix movie anywhere, like for many other service, you also like can't rent it from the library.

• 49:53Sean Fennessey?

  Right. Well, I'll use an example.

• 49:55Amanda Dobbins?

  It's not, they're not on Canopy.

• 49:57Sean Fennessey?

  I'll, I'll use an example from the, the Unboxing Boy video that came out over the weekend. One of the, one of the items that Eileen got for me was A New Leaf. And like a beautiful edition of Elaine May's A New Leaf. It's a 4K of the movie, which had not previously been available in that format. It was released by a company called Cinematograph, which is a subsidiary of Vinegar Syndrome, which is one of the biggest independent distributors of Blu-rays.

• 50:20Sean Fennessey?

  A New Leaf was licensed from Paramount. Let's say A New Leaf was a Warner Brothers movie.

• 50:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 50:25Sean Fennessey?

  My gut tells me Cinematograph would not have rights to license that title. And I don't know who is responsible for restoring and now preserving the 4K upgrade of the movie. But is Netflix gonna care about that? Is that the kind of work that they're gonna do? Warner Brothers in particular has Warner Archive, which is arguably the best, just kind of like historical churn them out system that we have, where they're just like, look at the list of films that they've made. The hundreds and hundreds of movies that they've made over the last hundred years. And they'll be like, what about this cowboy movie from 1939? This is kind of, this is of note. People will want to own this and they'll produce a version of it. Maybe they only sell 500 copies. But there are, just, just go to warnerarchive.com.

• 51:07Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 51:07Sean Fennessey?

  And look at everything that they've made.

• 51:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Related, except for Steelbooks, Warner Brothers also has Turner Classic Movies.

• 51:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 51:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Which, according to Deadline, is going to be a part of the Warner Brothers Netflix.

• 51:21Sean Fennessey?

  Will it?

• 51:22Amanda Dobbins?

  That I Googled this morning.

• 51:23Sean Fennessey?

  Is that the sole channel that would be moving over?

• 51:25Amanda Dobbins?

  I believe so, as opposed to the Discovery.

• 51:27Sean Fennessey?

  So that's another tile, essentially, on Netflix.

• 51:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I guess so, but, you know, that is currently a television network and, you know, festival and program that does a lot of surfacing of the amazing Warner Brothers catalog and history and programming that will now be under the control of Netflix. So how and what will they do? What is their commitment to, you know, preservation and historical programming?

• 51:54Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. It's funny, that experience actually always, I think, made more sense to people on television. Like Paul Thomas Anderson talks about how it's always on in his house, that you can just go into his house, it's just TCM all the time. Whereas, like, it's actually hard to get people to press play on an old movie, like a movie, like a black and white movie on streaming.

• 52:13Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, it's the old saw about you're just clicking through Netflix for 20 minutes because you can't pick what to actually watch. But TCM just press play for you. And I was like, no, check this out. What about this old cowboy movie from the something? What about, you know, XYZ?

• 52:28Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. The truth is, is that we just don't know with physical media, and I don't want to... There is an optimistic look at it. There is a way to say, well, this company exists, they're not going to disband it because of this agreement that they have. The work that they're doing right now is pretty cool. Like, stuff is on sale all the time on Groove.com. Like, it's not, it's actually more affordable than going to a movie. It's like, F1 is like $11.99 to own on 4K forever. That's part of my point of this, is like, if like, if a plane hits a server somewhere and knocks out everything that's backed up...

• 53:06Sean Fennessey?

  On Netflix, like you, we might lose stuff like we might lose stuff in perpetuity.

• 53:10Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I get it. I like in, in the larger like Library of Alexandria sense, I get it.

• 53:15Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, yes.

• 53:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Again, like your ability to buy plastic is it like they're.

• 53:21Sean Fennessey?

  I'm not buying plastic, I'm buying movies.

• 53:22Amanda Dobbins?

  They're connected, they're connected, but you know that I, and I understand that you drive the market that then enables film preservation long-term.

• 53:34Sean Fennessey?

  Exactly.

• 53:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Like I do, sure, but you are also just like doing your own version of ethical consumption over capitalism. And it's fine. I like buying stuff too, you know?

• 53:41Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 53:42Amanda Dobbins?

  So.

• 53:42Sean Fennessey?

  But what I am doing contributes to artists and has emotional utility.

• 53:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, that's great. I also contribute to artists. They're just, you know.

• 53:52Sean Fennessey?

  Such as teacup makers.

• 53:54Amanda Dobbins?

  I, no one has gotten me that teacup yet.

• 53:57Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, let's do like a brass tacks closing on this discussion because this has been robust.

• 54:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 54:02Sean Fennessey?

  Do you think this is actually going to happen? Do you think Netflix is going to buy Warner Brothers Discovery?

• 54:06Amanda Dobbins?

  I have no idea. What do you want me to?

• 54:09Sean Fennessey?

  Make a call.

• 54:10Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I guess not.

• 54:11Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 54:11Amanda Dobbins?

  They've tried a lot of, they've tried to buy a lot of different things over the years. You know, I'd heard they wanted to be the, the kings of video games or whatever.

• 54:18Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 54:19Amanda Dobbins?

  They, they tried to get me to play a game every time I opened that app.

• 54:21Sean Fennessey?

  That didn't really work.

• 54:22Amanda Dobbins?

  So far, struck out.

• 54:23Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 54:24Amanda Dobbins?

  So I think both from like a historical, they've, they've tried a lot of things. It's obviously pretty legally tricky. No one but David Zasloff and Ted Sarandos seem excited about this.

• 54:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 54:37Amanda Dobbins?

  And I guess Ted Sarandos' lieutenants.

• 54:38Sean Fennessey?

  Yep.

• 54:40Amanda Dobbins?

  So you then have to wonder, will, would people want to even work there? That not in the employee sense, but filmmakers.

• 54:49Sean Fennessey?

  I have thought about that a little bit. It's really hard to say because there's going to be only a couple of games in town at this point.

• 54:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 54:54Sean Fennessey?

  So, and Netflix, to its credit, by dint of that freedom and budget, has been able to draw in. The best filmmakers alive.

• 55:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 55:03Sean Fennessey?

  Like, they've really had very little trouble. There's a handful of people. Now, we did hear that the DGA issued a note about their concern over this. And I have seen people speculate, like, if Christopher Nolan kind of rallied the troops and they really dug their heels in the ground, which is not something that DGA historically does. But if they did, that would be interesting to watch the outcome of that, because Chris Nolan does not want to be on Netflix.

• 55:25Amanda Dobbins?

  No, absolutely not.

• 55:26Sean Fennessey?

  That's not something he wants. Didn't he don't know if he does not want to be on Netflix? Like, there are filmmakers.

• 55:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I think he's, he's got to be real mad about.

• 55:32Sean Fennessey?

  Well, he's making James Bond.

• 55:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, for Amazon, yeah.

• 55:35Sean Fennessey?

  He's off to elsewhere.

• 55:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 55:36Sean Fennessey?

  They'll go on Netflix eventually, but they don't want to be on Netflix to start. And that feels, that's not going to change the deal. But it's going to change what you're describing, which is like, a certain band of artists will be like, we don't work with those guys.

• 55:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 55:49Sean Fennessey?

  We'll see.

• 55:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure. And on the, on the other hand, or maybe on the same hand, to quote one of our favorite films, like, never underestimate a motivated, angry, rich person. Or a motivated, angry, you know, son of a rich person. I, they, they seem.

• 56:10Sean Fennessey?

  That's what I think is going to happen.

• 56:11Amanda Dobbins?

  They came ready to play.

• 56:12Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's going to be Paramount.

• 56:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 56:14Sean Fennessey?

  I think it's going to take two and a half to three years, but I do think it's going to be Paramount.

• 56:17Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, great. Well, I think we'll have a lovely time.

• 56:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, they can afford to wait it out. It's going to be messy. I promise to not make this show a weekly update on this story. I promise.

• 56:27Amanda Dobbins?

  That sounds great.

• 56:27Sean Fennessey?

  I, I did think that this conversation was necessary.

• 56:30Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm actually going back to business school so that I can do, like, my weekly case studies here. That'll be my homework, direct to camera.

• 56:36Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I think no matter what, Netflix has done something very smart for them.

• 56:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 56:43Sean Fennessey?

  You know, that, that this move, whether it handicaps Warner Brothers in some way, or puts Paramount in a state of tremendous disrepair, and puts them in thrall to all of their partners in a way, which is a whole other domino effect that we can talk about down the road. It can, it keeps them in pole position in a fascinating way.

• 57:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:01Sean Fennessey?

  And, uh...

• 57:03Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, we'll continue following the story. Can I close with my, my, my strong take about this?

• 57:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, which I, I agree with.

• 57:10Sean Fennessey?

  Do you agree with what?

• 57:10Amanda Dobbins?

  I do, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna go further.

• 57:12Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, great.

• 57:12Amanda Dobbins?

  But you start, yeah.

• 57:16Sean Fennessey?

  Even though I would not be happy with the Netflix outcome, this isn't really Netflix's fault. This is the fault of every major studio over the last 25 years that has thrown itself in with globalization in the movie business. And roughly mid 90s, late 90s, when there was this dawning realization that international box office could be more profitable and more valuable to the company at large, largely corporately held, than domestic box office, you saw a dramatic shift in the kinds of movies that were being made and the focus. And over that 30-year period, more franchises, more recognizable IP, more figures who could play overseas, more films that are less dependent on people and more dependent on concept.

• 58:03Sean Fennessey?

  And so, we have witnessed

• 58:08Sean Fennessey?

  the ultimate consequence of chasing more dollars in favor of the stability of what movie making is meant to represent. Now, you could make the case that that's just the evolution of any art form in any business, but there was an alternative path here.

• 58:23Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I agree, and I would just go further and say, you know, we live in hell, and the rapacious need for growth in every industry on relenting forever and ever is decimating all of our institutions and our way of life.

• 58:39Sean Fennessey?

  Yes. I, I hope this is not perceived as an ethnocentric take that American movies should stay American. That isn't my point. My point is that only certain kinds of movies will play all over the world and generate several billion dollars in revenue, and that that changed what movies were. So whenever we whinge about what happened to comedies, what happened to mid-tier dramas? Why aren't there movies for adults? All that stuff, that shit doesn't play overseas. That's why they don't get made. The reason why rom-coms work on Netflix is because Netflix has filled that gap in terms of consumption. People still want those movies. They just don't want them around the world in the exact Back the same way. And that is the thing that desecrated the movie going experience. It's not the money. It's not how much it costs. It's not even the convenience machine that Netflix built that we're talking about here.

• 59:22Sean Fennessey?

  It was the desire to grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow.

• 59:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 59:25Sean Fennessey?

  For 30 plus years and essentially spiking its own in its own end zone. And it's

• 59:31Amanda Dobbins?

  And like, and to have to keep growing even now. Part of this is happening because Netflix has grown and grown and grown and grown.

• 59:37Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 59:37Amanda Dobbins?

  And so is YouTube and so is Amazon and so is Tik Tok. And they just have to keep getting more, more, more, more, more. And it's not going to end.

• 59:46Sean Fennessey?

  And there's no one who's going to come in and say like, hey, guys, too much growth. That doesn't exist.

• 59:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, that's not

• 59:51Sean Fennessey?

  There's, there's no case for that. There's no logical world in which someone would have the power. Then you're talking about government regulation around something like that. And we don't really do that in our country.

• 1:00:00Amanda Dobbins?

  No.

• 1:00:01Sean Fennessey?

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• 1:01:20Amanda Dobbins?

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• 1:01:49Sean Fennessey?

  So that's our thrilling conclusion to that discussion.

• 1:01:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. Outlook, great. I'm really excited for the world we're handing to our children. Which is a great segue to the leader of the Golden Globes nominations.

• 1:02:02Sean Fennessey?

  That's right.

• 1:02:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Look at me, thank you. Thanks so much.

• 1:02:06Sean Fennessey?

  Well done.

• 1:02:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you.

• 1:02:07Sean Fennessey?

  It's gonna be one battle after another this award season, literally and figuratively. Let's talk briefly, or maybe not so briefly, about the Golden Globe nominations. So the Golden Globes are pointless.

• 1:02:22Sean Fennessey?

  They have nominated all of the cool and good movies.

• 1:02:26Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Sean Fennessey?

  And none of the bad and lame movies.

• 1:02:29Amanda Dobbins?

  True.

• 1:02:29Sean Fennessey?

  And they are looking more and more like the Academy Awards has looked in recent years. They're increasingly international.

• 1:02:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:37Sean Fennessey?

  They're identifying great works by auteurs. They've kind of wrung out a lot of the cronyism in their organization over time. There's a new form of cronyism perhaps in place, but it's the old HFPA is gone. The HFPA that nominated Deadpool in Best Comedy or Musical is no longer around.

• 1:02:56Sean Fennessey?

  This is a very different organization.

• 1:02:59Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. They, since their remake and their relaunch, they have just been clinging to the coattails of every single awards blog and just trying not to ruffle any feathers.

• 1:03:12Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:03:13Amanda Dobbins?

  And there's like, you know, every once in a while, it kicks in with like, we really gotta have Kate Hudson here at the end. I'm happy for Kate Hudson. She's been doing karaoke in order to promote a film that I can't remember the name of.

• 1:03:27Sean Fennessey?

  Song, Song Blue.

• 1:03:28Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure, have you seen it?

• 1:03:28Sean Fennessey?

  Not yet.

• 1:03:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:03:29Sean Fennessey?

  Next week.

• 1:03:30Amanda Dobbins?

  All right, that's exciting. And I think I have to go see Anaconda, so I can't, I will have to wait on that one.

• 1:03:36Sean Fennessey?

  Why not both?

• 1:03:38Amanda Dobbins?

  Because I have a job and children. Um, but yeah, it's, it's predictable. Um, and just an excuse to get people in a room two months early. And it's sort of, it's like, it's just like a welcome party.

• 1:03:55Sean Fennessey?

  Well, I mean, some of this is the cynical, what's good for show content stuff. And some of it is what is the purpose of this show? And I think that both things, both of those quagmires are true for us where the Golden Globes are ridiculous. They've always been historically ridiculous. You know, it's a shadowy group of people whose names we don't really know. We don't really know like what they're really affiliated with and what they do every day. And they make these choices about what they think are their favorite movies. You know, the same could probably be said for the Los Angeles Film Critics Association, which just voted over the weekend, or the big pictures, top five episodes of the year, or even the Academy Awards, you know?

• 1:04:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I think everyone knows what I do all day, but that's fine.

• 1:04:30Sean Fennessey?

  They do, you buy teacups. Um, still, part of what made it fun was that they would be like, yeah, Jared Leto and the little things, we think you deserve to be honored. That, that was a good idea. And we don't get that anymore. We get this like very respectable collection of nominees. Let's talk about the nominees to this point, okay? So you mentioned one about after another, it received nine nominations.

• 1:04:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:55Sean Fennessey?

  It's nominated in every major category that it was eligible in.

• 1:04:58Amanda Dobbins?

  That's true.

• 1:04:59Sean Fennessey?

  The only snub you could argue is Regina Hall, which I don't even think is a snub at this point.

• 1:05:04Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, sure, but they've got six spots in supporting actress.

• 1:05:08Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:05:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh, but, but no room for Regina Hall.

• 1:05:10Sean Fennessey?

  No, but picture, director, screenplay, actor, two people in supporting actor, supporting actress.

• 1:05:17Amanda Dobbins?

  For Tiana Taylor, yes.

• 1:05:18Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, score, like on down the line. This movie, this has been the movie of the season. It will continue to be the movie of the season. It is dominant here. The second most dominant movie in terms of the number of nominations was Sentimental Value. Were you surprised by this?

• 1:05:32Amanda Dobbins?

  I was, though I guess they're embracing international. As, as you noted, it's a very international mix.

• 1:05:40Sean Fennessey?

  Five non-English language features represented in the 12 total best picture nominees among drama and comedy or musical.

• 1:05:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Right, which I was surprised by. I think even a few weeks ago, even maybe on our last best picture power rankings, it had not felt that the international features, there wasn't a pop favorite, like.

• 1:06:00Amanda Dobbins?

  Anatomy of a Fall, say however many years ago, or Parasite. And I think that's changing a little bit as we, as the releases widen. And I think It Was Just an Accident has really had its moment, both through all the awards bodies and wider release and Jafar Panahi's sentencing. So, you know, I, I think that, that, like, it's starting. And maybe we were just a little, or I was a little too soon on that. But Sentimental Value had been waning, and that's not just me talking.

• 1:06:32Sean Fennessey?

  I wonder if this is going to be impactful or not because four acting nominations. Joakim Trier has two nominations here, including in Best Director, where he pushed out some other people who were competing. And I don't, I don't know if this movie is win-competitive against, you know, a Hamnet or a Sinners, but we'll see.

• 1:06:54Amanda Dobbins?

  So, the, in addition to the six nominees in every category, which, as you've written in the document, is weak, you know, make choices.

• 1:07:05Sean Fennessey?

  It's pathetic.

• 1:07:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Right. We're also, we have, we have two categories. We have Best Drama and then Best Musical or Comedy. And I'm not one to care about category fraud, and I don't think there any, is such thing at the Golden Globes. But this is, it's confusing right now. One battle is running in comedy, but Sinners, which has many musical elements, is running in drama.

• 1:07:28Sean Fennessey?

  They should be flipped.

• 1:07:29Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. And, I mean, there are other, it's, so Sinners is up against Hamnet. Sentimental Value is also in drama. Something else is in comedy that, or musical, that to me seems...

• 1:07:43Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, Nouvelle Vague is in Musical or Comedy.

• 1:07:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, sure, but that's just, you know, I'm happy for Richard Linklater.

• 1:07:48Sean Fennessey?

  I am too.

• 1:07:49Amanda Dobbins?

  Blue Moon and Nouvelle Vague? Wonderful.

• 1:07:51Sean Fennessey?

  I couldn't think of another time where a filmmaker was nominated twice in the same Best Picture category at the Golden Globes. I'm sure it's happened, but I couldn't think of an example.

• 1:08:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Hmm, would Brockovich and Traffic? But I think Brockovich was probably comedy. You know, and that's obviously also the only one that we can think of.

• 1:08:09Sean Fennessey?

  Metaphor.

• 1:08:10Amanda Dobbins?

  What a, what a time for Stephen.

• 1:08:11Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, that is, that's really interesting. I was, I'm very happy for Richard Linklater. I'm very happy for Ethan Hawke, for Blue Moon. I think that those are wonderful nominations. The New Villavogue one threw me for a loop a little bit. I, I did not see that coming.

• 1:08:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Also at the expense of Jay Kelly, which was not in Best Musical or Comedy.

• 1:08:26Sean Fennessey?

  Very notable.

• 1:08:27Amanda Dobbins?

  George Clooney and Adam Sandler did get nominations.

• 1:08:29Sean Fennessey?

  They did. Well, you could make the case that this was really at the expense of Wicked for Good.

• 1:08:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, yeah.

• 1:08:34Sean Fennessey?

  And Wicked for Good is not in Best Musical or Comedy. Is, that's big news.

• 1:08:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:39Sean Fennessey?

  We, we talked about it. We did, we took it out of the, our last power rankings.

• 1:08:43Amanda Dobbins?

  I thought that it would get one of the two extra spots in Musical or Comedy. And it did not. So that's.

• 1:08:49Sean Fennessey?

  You saw it's been sinking like a stone at the box office, too.

• 1:08:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:08:52Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:53Amanda Dobbins?

  People are not feeling it.

• 1:08:54Sean Fennessey?

  They're not really enjoying that movie.

• 1:08:55Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:55Sean Fennessey?

  Um, but Gonia gets a big boost.

• 1:08:58Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 1:08:58Sean Fennessey?

  Three nominations. It gets in in Comedy. It gets Jesse Plemons and Emma Stone.

• 1:09:02Amanda Dobbins?

  That's another one where like, yes, technically it's, I mean, it is very funny. I laughed a lot, but.

• 1:09:08Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, debatable how.

• 1:09:09Amanda Dobbins?

  What are we doing here?

• 1:09:10Sean Fennessey?

  How funny or painful it is. Um, both House of Dynamite and Wake Up Dead Man completely shut out.

• 1:09:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:09:15Sean Fennessey?

  Um, and as you mentioned, no Jay Kelly in, in Best Comedy. Hamlet's got six nominations.

• 1:09:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 1:09:21Sean Fennessey?

  Which is pretty much exactly what it needs to do.

• 1:09:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. Uh. Churning along.

• 1:09:25Sean Fennessey?

  Thursday, we're going to talk about it.

• 1:09:27Amanda Dobbins?

  I am going to see it in an hour and 20 minutes.

• 1:09:30Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, very cool.

• 1:09:31Amanda Dobbins?

  That's an 11 a.m. Monday, uh, Hamlet screening.

• 1:09:34Sean Fennessey?

  Very, very cool.

• 1:09:34Amanda Dobbins?

  After Golden Globe nominations and the death of cinema.

• 1:09:37Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:09:37Amanda Dobbins?

  So.

• 1:09:38Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, well, not, not according to you and Chloe Zhao, who is also nominated for Best Director for her work on that film, as were Jessie Buckley and Paul Nesko and Max Richter for his score. Um, Avatar Fire and Ash.

• 1:09:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:52Sean Fennessey?

  It received a achievement in cinematic and box office and cinematic achievement?

• 1:09:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes, it is. Yes, cinematic and box office. It's cinematic first, but then also the box office, which we should know Wicked for Good also did. They're relegated to the blockbuster category.

• 1:10:06Sean Fennessey?

  My beloved F1.

• 1:10:08Amanda Dobbins?

  And K-pop Demon Hunters.

• 1:10:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:10Amanda Dobbins?

  Which is how you know that cinematic is first before box office.

• 1:10:13Sean Fennessey?

  Cinema is back, thanks to K-pop Demon Hunters.

• 1:10:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, the acting. Phil, let's talk about the song just briefly, which is like Wicked. The two new Wicked songs got nominated and only Golden.

• 1:10:24Sean Fennessey?

  Shameful.

• 1:10:25Amanda Dobbins?

  Justice for Soda Pop.

• 1:10:28Sean Fennessey?

  To me, it would be What It Sounds Like.

• 1:10:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:10:32Sean Fennessey?

  That is my daughter's favorite song. That's the song I'm most familiar with.

• 1:10:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:10:36Sean Fennessey?

  I think there's a case for Takedown, for Strategy. There's a lot of jams free.

• 1:10:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:42Sean Fennessey?

  You know, a lot of bangers on K-pop Demon Hunters.

• 1:10:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:10:45Sean Fennessey?

  K-pop Demon Hunters won Best Animated Feature at the New York Film Critics Circle. Isn't that amazing?

• 1:10:49Amanda Dobbins?

  It's wonderful.

• 1:10:50Sean Fennessey?

  So strange. Uh, okay.

• 1:10:53Amanda Dobbins?

  I was sort of surprised it didn't make it into Best Musical or Comedy if they really wanted to throw some, you know.

• 1:10:59Sean Fennessey?

  They're not really interested in appealing to the pop sensibility here. Like, that's just not, this, this.

• 1:11:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, they are in cinematic and box office achievement.

• 1:11:06Sean Fennessey?

  I know, just junk that. It's just such a waste of time. Nobody cares. Let's talk about the kind of broad picture of acting nominees. I think the leading contenders are still the leading contenders, right? Your Shalames and Leos, your Jessie Buckley's, like, those people, nothing has really changed there. No shocking surprises. But because you've got 12 lead nominees in actor and actress, you've got like Jeremy Allen White, Julia Roberts, Oscar Isaac, Tessa Thompson.

• 1:11:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:34Sean Fennessey?

  I don't really think these people are very nomination competitive at the Academy Awards, but they're gonna be nominated here.

• 1:11:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. We're, I'm happy for Tessa Thompson. Nina Hoss was not recognized and supporting for Heta, which is.

• 1:11:46Sean Fennessey?

  Doing my best performances of the year list.

• 1:11:47Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, and it's, but that's because you get, you only get one supporting category for both drama and musical comedy.

• 1:11:55Sean Fennessey?

  Tessa Thompson was in Heta, which we have not discussed on this show, but probably will come up before the year is over. Is that coming out sometime soon? Heta, it's on Amazon Prime right now. Okay.

• 1:12:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:03Sean Fennessey?

  And you both have seen it?

• 1:12:04Amanda Dobbins?

  We have.

• 1:12:05Sean Fennessey?

  I have, yeah. Five words or less? An interesting adaptation that doesn't quite get there. Okay.

• 1:12:11Amanda Dobbins?

  Nina Hoss was good.

• 1:12:14Sean Fennessey?

  You mentioned Emily Blunt.

• 1:12:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:17Sean Fennessey?

  Is in Supporting Actress.

• 1:12:18Amanda Dobbins?

  That's, you know, some, Globe's got a Globe.

• 1:12:20Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:12:21Amanda Dobbins?

  Every once in a while, you know?

• 1:12:22Sean Fennessey?

  She was in The Smashing Machine.

• 1:12:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 1:12:23Sean Fennessey?

  Which so many people have seen.

• 1:12:26Sean Fennessey?

  The Supporting nominations, there's only six total for Actor and Actress. Those feel to me very close to where we're gonna end up.

• 1:12:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:34Sean Fennessey?

  With, with the Oscars.

• 1:12:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Not a single Sinner is Supporting nominee, which to me is the one, you know, oversight is probably the most generous term that I could give for it, but also, you know, you do wonder where, whether a Delroy Lindo or a Winnebago Saka will, they, who have been

• 1:12:53Sean Fennessey?

  Showing up.

• 1:12:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Showing up at some of the other awards situations.

• 1:12:58Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, I think that they're gonna campaign very hard as well. So it'll be interesting to see what shakes out there. I mentioned that Ethan Hawke is in for Blue Moon for Best Actor, which is wonderful.

• 1:13:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, Blue Moon also in, in Best Comedy or Musical, which is lovely.

• 1:13:09Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, it's great. Rose Byrne also now, like.

• 1:13:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Kinda in pole position?

• 1:13:14Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Is that the right use of the term pole position?

• 1:13:17Sean Fennessey?

  That would make her in first place. I would still say Jessie Buckley is very much in pole position, but she's, she's.

• 1:13:23Amanda Dobbins?

  But she hasn't won any, she's won like one awards, you know, one like Critics Association.

• 1:13:28Sean Fennessey?

  This is kind of like an elevated Critics Prize now, you know? It's a Critics Prize with a proper telecast. And so, I don't know, let, let's talk about the studio breakdown.

• 1:13:37Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:13:37Sean Fennessey?

  I thought this was interesting. Neon has four nominations.

• 1:13:42Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, international.

• 1:13:44Sean Fennessey?

  No, they have all four of the major Cannes contenders. Netflix has two. Warner Brothers has two. Focus has two. A24 has one.

• 1:13:52Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm-hmm, Marty Supreme.

• 1:13:53Sean Fennessey?

  Marty Supreme.

• 1:13:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Are you going to the drop today in Los Angeles?

• 1:13:56Sean Fennessey?

  Is there a drop?

• 1:13:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it's on Western Avenue at 4:00 PM.

• 1:14:00Sean Fennessey?

  Clearly, I'm not going to the drop. You are going to the drop?

• 1:14:02Amanda Dobbins?

  I have a preschool parent teacher conference, so I'm not able.

• 1:14:05Sean Fennessey?

  Very cool, a different kind of drop, yeah. An information drop.

• 1:14:09Amanda Dobbins?

  Sure.

• 1:14:11Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, no, I'm not going. I saw Marty Supreme for a second time last night.

• 1:14:14Amanda Dobbins?

  Very jealous, but not at the Ben Affleck screening.

• 1:14:16Sean Fennessey?

  I know.

• 1:14:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Who did not invite me to the Ben Affleck hosted Marty Supreme?

• 1:14:21Sean Fennessey?

  Yes.

• 1:14:21Amanda Dobbins?

  What do I have to do?

• 1:14:22Sean Fennessey?

  What did he, did he interview Josh Saffian, Ronald Bronstein? Was that what it was?

• 1:14:26Amanda Dobbins?

  I, I saw a picture of Ben and Josh.

• 1:14:28Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, how nice.

• 1:14:29Amanda Dobbins?

  And, and I saw a quote that said Ben Affleck described it as the best movie ever made.

• 1:14:33Sean Fennessey?

  Really?

• 1:14:35Amanda Dobbins?

  That's according to my friend's Instagram. So, you know, but I, I trust.

• 1:14:39Sean Fennessey?

  I mean, it is an amazing movie.

• 1:14:40Amanda Dobbins?

  I love it.

• 1:14:41Sean Fennessey?

  Second time was better. Uh, we'll get into that.

• 1:14:43Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean, I really, I, I'm really sorry that I can't go be with the, Jack, you gonna go to the drop this afternoon?

• 1:14:51Amanda Dobbins?

  I just.

• 1:14:54Amanda Dobbins?

  I do have a pitch.

• 1:14:55Sean Fennessey?

  That's exciting.

• 1:14:56Amanda Dobbins?

  I have a pitch though for, you know, cause they've been doing the jacket campaign, like the greats.

• 1:15:01Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Amanda Dobbins?

  You know, and it's been like Misty Copeland, Tom Brady, which I know you have feelings about Bill and I, the science guy.

• 1:15:05Sean Fennessey?

  Fucking Tom Brady.

• 1:15:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Michael Phelps. But so then imagine me.

• 1:15:10Sean Fennessey?

  Anybody not washed?

• 1:15:11Amanda Dobbins?

  As the greatest mommy and it'll be me in the jacket and my Velcro rollers doing magnet tiles with my kids. Because you can have it all in the world of Marty Supreme. I just want them to think about it.

• 1:15:23Sean Fennessey?

  My version of that will be a, uh, live capture of my Blu-ray shelves while I'm wearing the jacket. And I'll just be rearranging and be like, oh, actually no, the fury comes after the Palmer's obsession. So I gotta make sure that those are in chronological order. And then I will be the greatest.

• 1:15:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:15:40Sean Fennessey?

  At organizing Blu-rays.

• 1:15:41Amanda Dobbins?

  You'll be the greatest archivist and not be the greatest mommy.

• 1:15:44Sean Fennessey?

  That's great.

• 1:15:44Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:15:45Sean Fennessey?

  Uh, other good surprises.

• 1:15:48Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:48Sean Fennessey?

  Lee Byung-hun from No Other Choice getting in, No Other Choice getting in at best musical or comedy.

• 1:15:54Amanda Dobbins?

  I'm excited. Also like, once again, it is very funny. I guess it is technically in a draft, we would allow it as a comedy.

• 1:16:02Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, it's definitely a comedy.

• 1:16:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it is a comedy, but it's like, sure.

• 1:16:05Sean Fennessey?

  Comedy. Yeah.

• 1:16:06Amanda Dobbins?

  But you know, like.

• 1:16:07Sean Fennessey?

  It is also very violent and dramatic. Yeah. And I think that's actually. Even though I agree with you about the sinners in one battle thing and that there's something dishonest, maybe about how they've been navigated around one another.

• 1:16:19Amanda Dobbins?

  It's the Golden Globes.

• 1:16:20Sean Fennessey?

  It is the Golden Globes. But a movie like that, I mean, I just put it on my top five list and I did it in part because I was like, I feel like this is, it's fallen away a little bit and, you know, the park super fans will get into it and they'll love it, but it's not going to really be contending.

• 1:16:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:35Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know. Maybe.

• 1:16:36Amanda Dobbins?

  Maybe.

• 1:16:37Sean Fennessey?

  You know, if Wicked for Good and Avatar are actually out.

• 1:16:40Amanda Dobbins?

  I know.

• 1:16:40Sean Fennessey?

  At the Academy Awards.

• 1:16:41Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Sean Fennessey?

  It could get in.

• 1:16:43Amanda Dobbins?

  That'd be great.

• 1:16:44Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Eva Victor nominated for best actress. Never would have predicted that.

• 1:16:49Amanda Dobbins?

  I mean.

• 1:16:49Sean Fennessey?

  Fascinating.

• 1:16:50Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, love that movie.

• 1:16:51Sean Fennessey?

  That movie is definitely still competing for best original screenplay at the Academy Awards.

• 1:16:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:16:55Sean Fennessey?

  I don't know if Eva Victor is competing for best actress at the Academy Awards.

• 1:16:59Amanda Dobbins?

  It is an expanded field at the Golden Globes, but I mean screenplay is the coolest award, so.

• 1:17:04Sean Fennessey?

  It is the coolest award, especially original screenplay. That's where you want to win. Kang Ding Rae was nominated for best score for Serat. Have you seen Serat?

• 1:17:14Amanda Dobbins?

  No, and it's getting spoiled.

• 1:17:17Sean Fennessey?

  I have it on DVD or Blu-ray at home.

• 1:17:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, really?

• 1:17:18Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, because I got the neon box over the weekend where they very kindly send to critics, some critics.

• 1:17:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:24Sean Fennessey?

  A box set of every film that they've released.

• 1:17:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Oh, yeah, it is. I've borrowed it from you for many years. Okay, well, I'll borrow it.

• 1:17:30Sean Fennessey?

  Serat, fascinating movie. I'd love to be able to talk with you about it. I don't, I.

• 1:17:34Amanda Dobbins?

  I just, it was a very limited qualifying run in LA.

• 1:17:37Sean Fennessey?

  It was, yeah.

• 1:17:37Amanda Dobbins?

  At the Burbank 16, which I love, but I just couldn't get there.

• 1:17:40Sean Fennessey?

  Um, I don't know when it'll come to streaming, but I recommend it with some reservations.

• 1:17:46Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay, I mean, I'm, I, knowing what I, knowing what I know, I'm ready.

• 1:17:50Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. So the score, the score that's nominated.

• 1:17:54Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Sean Fennessey?

  I don't, I mean, I don't even know where this came from. This is a real, this is the, by far, to me, the most outlandish pick. So the film is set in, um, in a desert landscape, uh, in rave culture.

• 1:18:06Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Sean Fennessey?

  Um, and the music is, the score is primarily electronic rave music and.

• 1:18:14Sean Fennessey?

  It's really good and effective in the film. Like, it really gives the film a heartbeat.

• 1:18:18Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:19Sean Fennessey?

  And an energy, but I don't. This over Marty Supreme is crazy to me, like crazy.

• 1:18:25Amanda Dobbins?

  I, again, I haven't seen Serat, but yes, Marty Supreme is maybe the score of the year.

• 1:18:31Sean Fennessey?

  It's incredible.

• 1:18:32Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:33Sean Fennessey?

  Having just seen it again last night.

• 1:18:35Amanda Dobbins?

  Listen, yeah.

• 1:18:35Sean Fennessey?

  If it doesn't get in at the Oscars, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be baffled.

• 1:18:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, well, they didn't do Challengers last year, so.

• 1:18:41Sean Fennessey?

  Very good point, but, but to be honest, the Serat score is more like Challengers.

• 1:18:45Amanda Dobbins?

  Too little, too late.

• 1:18:48Sean Fennessey?

  What other stuffs? No Billy Crudup.

• 1:18:51Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, we're talking about Jay Kelly later this week.

• 1:18:53Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, there had been a lot of like, hey, actually, what if it's Crudup over Sandler? But Sandler got in, Crudup did not.

• 1:19:01Sean Fennessey?

  No Train Dreams in drama.

• 1:19:03Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:05Sean Fennessey?

  What does that mean?

• 1:19:05Amanda Dobbins?

  But Joel Edgerton, yes. Well, I just, they allotted two Netflix spots. And they went to Nouvelle Vague and.

• 1:19:15Sean Fennessey?

  Frankenstein.

• 1:19:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Frankenstein, as opposed to Jay Kelly and Train Dreams.

• 1:19:19Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:20Amanda Dobbins?

  Who can say?

• 1:19:21Sean Fennessey?

  Five nominations for Frankenstein, including Lordy, Oscar Isaac, and Best Director for Guillermo del Toro, but not Best Screenplay. Notable.

• 1:19:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Yes.

• 1:19:32Sean Fennessey?

  You think del Toro today, I'm asking you today.

• 1:19:34Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:34Sean Fennessey?

  Is getting into Best Director at the Academy Awards?

• 1:19:37Amanda Dobbins?

  People love him, you know?

• 1:19:39Sean Fennessey?

  Yes or no?

• 1:19:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Well, yes.

• 1:19:42Sean Fennessey?

  Okay, if that happens, I think what has happened here will also happen, which is this Josh Safdie was not in Best Director here. And that would be the case. I'm, I, I, I think, I think people, I was at a SAG screening for Marty Supreme last night. And people were like, fucking A, man. This is it.

• 1:19:58Amanda Dobbins?

  It's incredible.

• 1:19:59Sean Fennessey?

  So I, I think that there's gonna be a strong wave.

• 1:20:01Amanda Dobbins?

  But you know, Josh Safdie was at a DGA screening with Ben Affleck, who is also famously not nominated for Best Director. When he won Best Picture, so.

• 1:20:10Sean Fennessey?

  Is Marty gonna Argo?

• 1:20:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I, well, I, that'd be great.

• 1:20:14Sean Fennessey?

  It's gonna happen.

• 1:20:15Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:17Sean Fennessey?

  I don't, and, and, this is just like a, this show is just a starter kit for the Oscars now.

• 1:20:22Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:22Sean Fennessey?

  It's just, this is for. For normies to check out, hey, here's what you should stream in the next two months.

• 1:20:27Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:20:28Sean Fennessey?

  As you wait for the Academy Award nominations. Is that, do we need that?

• 1:20:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Maybe. I mean, I don't think listeners of this show need it because you and I do that. They are on our turf somewhat, but like, that's okay. It's if we, if we want more people engaging with the culture of movies, see the first hour and a half of this podcast. Then sure, as many, you know, glitzy ceremonies being like, hey, look over here, watch, it was just an accident as we can get.

• 1:20:53Sean Fennessey?

  I agree. I, I like the idea of celebrating the artists, obviously. I'm for that. And if it means more exposure and money for them, I'm for that.

• 1:21:03Amanda Dobbins?

  It's silly. It's also this.

• 1:21:04Sean Fennessey?

  There's an obviation going on right now.

• 1:21:05Amanda Dobbins?

  I don't know. White Lotus also got a lot of nominees, so a bunch of people will tune in for that. And then maybe they'll learn about a film, which is great. So leveraging, you know, TV brain for the purposes of teaching people about movies.

• 1:21:17Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah. What about podcast brain?

• 1:21:19Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:19Sean Fennessey?

  Amy Poehler, Good Hang with Amy Poehler nominated one of the five nominees.

• 1:21:23Amanda Dobbins?

  Congratulations to Amy.

• 1:21:24Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah, the greatest. Very happy for her. Very happy for that show. That show is great. And it is a ringer show and a Spotify show.

• 1:21:30Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, I'm very grateful for all of the work that Amy has done

• 1:21:35Amanda Dobbins?

  in terms of advocating for cameras that look good on people.

• 1:21:39Sean Fennessey?

  Got it.

• 1:21:39Amanda Dobbins?

  Thank you, Amy.

• 1:21:40Sean Fennessey?

  That's, I, yes, thank you, Amy.

• 1:21:43Amanda Dobbins?

  Look better, I guess we should say. I don't know if we, I don't know if you and I have gotten to good, but she looks great.

• 1:21:48Sean Fennessey?

  See, I'll never get to good. Uh, CR's campaign for Ben Shapiro shut down, denied. Tough, tough break for him.

• 1:21:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:56Sean Fennessey?

  He'd been going door to door.

• 1:21:57Amanda Dobbins?

  Right.

• 1:21:58Sean Fennessey?

  To all of the, is it even the Hollywood Foreign Press Association? What is the name of the organization now?

• 1:22:03Amanda Dobbins?

  I think they are just the Golden Globes. Like, that's the name of the organization.

• 1:22:07Sean Fennessey?

  Like, I'm Jim Golden Globe?

• 1:22:08Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:09Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. All right, cool. Let's briefly talk about It Was Just an Accident.

• 1:22:13Amanda Dobbins?

  Okay.

• 1:22:13Sean Fennessey?

  Okay.

• 1:22:14Amanda Dobbins?

  The less, the less said until you've seen it, the better.

• 1:22:17Sean Fennessey?

  I agree. I just want to maybe highlight a couple of things that I really like about this movie before throwing to our conversation with Farpanahi. So, written, directed by him, uh, the cast includes, uh, Vahid Mubassari, Miriam Ashfari, and Ibrahim Azizi.

• 1:22:34Sean Fennessey?

  Most of these actors are relatively unknown. This film was shot largely in secret, in part because of the experience that Panahi has been going through, which is slightly confusing, where he served time in prison. He had a period of time in which he was under house arrest. He had a long travel ban, a 20-year travel ban. He has been able to kind of navigate and negotiate around some of those things over that time during the period in which he was under house arrest. He made a film called This Is Not a Film. He made a film in 2015 called Taxi, in which he just mounted a camera in a taxi and had a series of exchanges that may or may not be what really happened. He's an incredibly experimental filmmaker, but also a very traditional filmmaker.

• 1:23:18Sean Fennessey?

  And this movie is much more traditional than what he has been making over the last 10 or 15 years because of the circumstances that he's been under in the regime. What did you think of It Was Just an Accident?

• 1:23:29Amanda Dobbins?

  So I went in knowing almost nothing, except that it was a thriller and that it won the Palme d'Or. And I loved it. I mean, I was like very stressed out. And it does that essential, like thriller, audience-pleasing thing of there is a central question. And like, I didn't know. And I went back and forth throughout the film of where I think the various characters motive. I understood their motivations, but are they right? Are they wrong? How is this going to pan out? I don't know. And it does manage to keep, you know, wrong-footing you as it adds people and complications to the process.

• 1:24:11Amanda Dobbins?

  There's also one extended, I mean, there are a number of very tense set pieces, but there's one in a hospital that I have thought about with nausea. If If If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You was the most nauseous I've been in a theater, this is a close second.

• 1:24:29Sean Fennessey?

  And this is a, that's a companion for

• 1:24:31Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:32Sean Fennessey?

  Part of the same reason. Yeah, I mean, the framework of the movie is, is that a man drives, a man and his family drive into a mechanic's office after they've gotten into an accident. And one of the men working in the mechanic's notices that the man who was pulled in with his family may or may not be A significant and terrifying figure from his past. Someone who is responsible for tremendous pain that he has caused him and caused other people that he knows closely. And he sets out to figure out if this man is in fact his torture, the person who is responsible for all these terrible acts.

• 1:25:13Sean Fennessey?

  And it becomes this kind of like Hitchcockian road comedy where you're really nervous and unsure of what is real and like what is true and what is not true and whether or not they will be able to ascertain the truth. But as you said, they keep adding more and more characters and figures into this world, into this caravan that is traveling around Tehran. And it's like such a fascinating blend of tone because, and you know, I come to it with a lot of this knowledge of Panahi's films and his filmmaking style. And some of his movies have a tension in them, but they're usually much more sort of

• 1:25:52Sean Fennessey?

  like intellectually rigorous and exploring like what makes a movie. And this is a real movie movie.

• 1:26:01Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:02Sean Fennessey?

  It is a narrative story. And like I was asking him questions when we were talking about like convention and, you know, how do you think about like plotting? And he was like, I don't really think about it that way. What matters is the idea that I'm really driving at. But that it isn't that kind of movie. Like if people are concerned about checking this out because they're like an Iranian film and, you know, in a foreign language that is a world that I don't understand and what do I have to know about the director? Like you don't.

• 1:26:25Amanda Dobbins?

  You don't.

• 1:26:26Sean Fennessey?

  You really, in order to click with it.

• 1:26:27Amanda Dobbins?

  And you learn a lot about the world in really there are, you know, it's incredibly like well observed and the, you know, the tap to pay comes up several times and I've thought about that a lot. Also, when you were, when we were fighting about who can dig a hole, that's immediately what I thought of.

• 1:26:46Sean Fennessey?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:26:47Amanda Dobbins?

  So there's a lot that stays with you, but it, but it is. You just want to find out what happens.

• 1:26:53Sean Fennessey?

  That's, that's, and the way in which we find out.

• 1:26:56Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it's also just.

• 1:26:57Sean Fennessey?

  Like, it is, one of, we've been talking about what are the great endings of, movie endings of the year. You know, Marty Suprem, one of the great endings. What was the other movie you said that you thought was like absolutely dynamite? There's, you know, If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You has an incredible ending. One Battle After Another has an incredible ending. Like, No Other Choice has an incredible ending. There are a series of movies this year where you walk out going like, wow, nice.

• 1:27:16Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:16Sean Fennessey?

  And this is not quite as uplifting, I would say, but it is incredibly impactful. And really delivers on the paranoia that is steeped deep inside of this movie. So, yeah, this is a wonderful film. And, you know, we've been saying, like, is there like an anatomy of a fall this year? I think this is it.

• 1:27:33Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it's starting, yeah.

• 1:27:34Sean Fennessey?

  You know, people were really responding to it. And obviously, they're very, I think savvily locating what Panahi represents in the world at large. And how, you know, if you, if you live under fascism or you live under a controlling theocratic state, what does it mean to try to be an artist and express yourself? And he is doing that in fascinating ways. I don't know what's going to happen to him in the long term. He talked a little bit about his time in prison before this, when we spoke.

• 1:28:05Sean Fennessey?

  But that, that aspect of things is very scary and very sad. But I hope that he is here through the duration of.

• 1:28:11Amanda Dobbins?

  I do as well, yeah.

• 1:28:12Sean Fennessey?

  At least this campaign. But he's also, you know, his heart and his life and his family is in Iran. So he naturally wants to go back to his home. So it's a very complicated story. What, what an episode.

• 1:28:24Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah, it's not done.

• 1:28:25Sean Fennessey?

  It's not done. Let's go now to my conversation with Jafar Panahi.

• 1:28:33Sean Fennessey?

  It is an honor to be joined by Jafar Panahi and his interpreter, Shada Dayani. Thank you both for being here. So I wanted to start with this. It's fascinating to see your point of view and your filmmaking skill put towards a classical thriller, a traditional thriller style. Did you have any cinematic examples that you thought of while you were working on this film?

• 1:28:55Speaker 04

  نمیدونم به کجا رسید که میگه ترسناک

• 1:28:58Speaker 02

  I don't know where you have reached that you call it a thriller

• 1:29:02Speaker 04

  معمولاً فلمای ترسناک خانم هم تو خونه میشینه میبینه

• 1:29:06Speaker 02

  Usually it's my wife watching thrillers at home

• 1:29:09Speaker 04

  و هر وقت اون میخواد ببینه من درمیرم

• 1:29:11Speaker 02

  And whenever she wants to watch them, I run away

• 1:29:15Speaker 04

  اصلاً تعماله اون فلمای ترسناک رو ندارم

• 1:29:19Speaker 02

  Because I can't really tolerate thrillers

• 1:29:22Sean Fennessey?

  That's so surprising to hear because I was very taught throughout this movie

• 1:29:28Speaker 04

  نمیدونم من ترسی توش نایدم

• 1:29:31Speaker 02

  Um, for me, there is no fear in it

• 1:29:33Speaker 04

  اخه اینطوری خانم میبینه پورا خون و خون ریزی و کشتو کش داره من

• 1:29:39Speaker 02

  Because what my wife watches is full of killing and blood and murder and I don't associate with that

• 1:29:48Speaker 04

  من ترسناک کمتری میانه

• 1:29:49Speaker 02

  That's what I call a thriller

• 1:29:53Sean Fennessey?

  It's funny to hear you say that though because it does conjure the idea of revenge, which is something you see in lots and lots of American films. Does that word feel appropriate to you for this film?

• 1:30:05Speaker 04

  ببینید من فکر میکنم انتقام بخشش اینا فقط تو سطح رویه کار هستن و دارن بستر و پیش میبرن

• 1:30:15Speaker 02

  I really think that themes such as revenge and forgiveness are only on the surface and they're there to move the plot forward

• 1:30:25Speaker 04

  یعنی به عمق نمیره اگر اینطوری نگاه کنیم فقط در سطح میمونه و همراهی باقسته میشی

• 1:30:33Speaker 02

  Such themes will not take you deep down into the film. They will only remain on the surface and they will move you maybe just through the story

• 1:30:42Speaker 04

  دغدغه خود من اصلاً این نبودش

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  My issue was not that

• 1:30:48Speaker 04

  طریق مسئله دیگه ای بود که الان نیاز یک جامعه مثل جامعه ما هستش

• 1:30:54Speaker 02

  My issue was raising other questions that are the need of our society

• 1:30:59Speaker 04

  چه باید کرد؟

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  What can we do?

• 1:31:05Speaker 04

  آیا این چرخه خوشونت میخواد ادامه پیدا کنه به همین شه که تکرار و تکرار بشه؟

• 1:31:13Speaker 02

  The question is, is the cycle of violence going to continue as before and keep repeating itself?

• 1:31:21Speaker 04

  یا نه، باید یک جایی به آخر تسریع میگیره تمومش کنه.

• 1:31:25Speaker 02

  Or is there a point where we decide to end it?

• 1:31:29Speaker 04

  پس اونا همش مقدمةست برسی به این حرف.

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  So those themes of revenge and forgiveness are just introductions and preambles to get to this one question.

• 1:31:41Sean Fennessey?

  The film takes this interesting approach of a dialectic among five characters who all seem to represent different points of view on what you just described. Can you talk about finding a way to craft real characters while also representing all of these different ideas that the film is exploring?

• 1:31:59Speaker 04

  بنی زام خیدرو هات چون این نمونه هارو میشه راحت الان هم تو جامعه دید هم وقتی من تو زندان بودم دیدم.

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  I think it's quite easy because you can find examples of those characters both within the society and I also saw them when I was in prison.

• 1:32:19Speaker 04

  پس این جامعه درحال پوست اندازی هستش، خود به خود اینا به وجود میان.

• 1:32:24Speaker 02

  When a society is shitting, these characters automatically will rise.

• 1:32:29Speaker 04

  و هر کی فکر میکنه چگونه باید به اون نتیجه نهایی رسید.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  And everyone thinks of how to get to the final question.

• 1:32:41Speaker 04

  این برخورده راحت الان تو فضای مجازی توی خود جامعه اینا هستش.

• 1:32:50Speaker 02

  You can come across such encounters on virtual spaces, on the society itself, very easily.

• 1:32:57Speaker 04

  پس راحت میشه به هر کدوم اینا رو انتخاب کرد توی فرناه گذاش و حالا باید اینا با هم دیالوک برقرار کنن.

• 1:33:04Speaker 02

  So you can easily select them, put them in the script, and now you just have to find the dialogues between them.

• 1:33:10Speaker 04

  و خود این به نظرات مختلفی که وجود داره، فکرایی مختلفی که تو این شخصیت ها رو داره داستان رو هم خوب پیش میبره.

• 1:33:20Speaker 02

  And the different viewpoints of the characters, different thoughts of the characters, are also helping with moving the story forward.

• 1:33:29Speaker 04

  چون بعضیا در تزاد با هم قرار میگیرن، بعضیا هم سو میشن.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  Because sometimes they're in contradiction and sometimes they're in line.

• 1:33:38Speaker 04

  خب بیه که داستان چی میخواد؟

• 1:33:41Speaker 02

  What does a story want?

• 1:33:43Speaker 04

  همینا خودش پیشبرن دست گیر.

• 1:33:45Speaker 02

  These are exactly what moves the story forward.

• 1:33:48Sean Fennessey?

  What about finding the right actors? I recognized a couple of the actors from previous work, but working in secret, casting must be challenging. How do you do that?

• 1:33:59Speaker 04

  آه، آره ولی ببینه اون چیکه باسمه مهمه تو مرحله اول هر یک از این شخصیت ها، حالا کسی که میخواد بهش بازی کنی، فیزیک اون آدمه.

• 1:34:13Speaker 02

  Yes, but what matters to me initially is the actor's physical appearances to match the characters.

• 1:34:21Speaker 04

  تماشگر اول با ابند چیکه میبینه یک فیزیک اون بازیگره.

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  The first thing that the audience sees is the physical characteristics of an actor.

• 1:34:35Speaker 04

  و اون چقدر میتونه در لحظه اول تماشگر و هم راه خودش بکشه.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  And the question is how much those physical characteristics can bring the audience along in the first moments.

• 1:34:50Speaker 04

  خب مثلا فرض کنید که وحید اومده یه مشکلی پیش اومده، شکی رو ایجاد شده، میره پیش کسی و کمک میخواد.

• 1:35:07Speaker 02

  For instance, Wahid has a problem. He goes to someone and he asks for help.

• 1:35:12Speaker 04

  و اون آدم که تو کتاب فروشیه و گلیاب چند قدم جلوتر میبینه، کسی رو معرفی میکنه.

• 1:35:20Speaker 02

  And the character who is at the bookstore and seems to be a few steps forward. Introduces another person.

• 1:35:27Speaker 04

  و شخصیت رو از همون جا برات پیش زمینه میده که هر چیزی گفت به حرفش خوشخون.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  And gives the audience an idea about the coming character. Whatever she says, listen to her.

• 1:35:41Speaker 04

  پس تو فکر میکنه که خب حالا آدمی که میخواد بره پیشش یک کاریزمایی داره.

• 1:35:49Speaker 02

  So the audience has it in their mind that the character whom Wahid is going to has certain charisma.

• 1:35:58Speaker 04

  و میتونه تاثیرگذار بشه.

• 1:36:00Speaker 02

  And can be influential.

• 1:36:02Speaker 04

  یعنی از پیشآپیچتواسش یه لیدری رو میبینی.

• 1:36:06Speaker 02

  Meaning you see a leader in advance.

• 1:36:09Speaker 04

  و حالا وقتی ما اولین چهره که از شیوا میبینیم باید این شخصیت رو توی چهرش بتونیم ببینیم.

• 1:36:17Speaker 02

  So the first shot that we see of Shiva, we have to see that character and personality in her face.

• 1:36:26Speaker 04

  نوع برخوردی که میکنه نوع راه رفتنش نوع نگاهش همه اینا تاثیر داره.

• 1:36:31Speaker 02

  The way she conducts herself, the way she walks, the way she looks, they all make a difference.

• 1:36:37Speaker 04

  و وقتی حالا اینا توی ذهنت همشی آما دست نگاه میکنی که به کیا میتونی اعتماد کنی.

• 1:36:47Speaker 02

  When you have all these in your mind, then you look and ask whom can you trust?

• 1:36:53Speaker 04

  با خود میگه اه من توی یکی از فیلم ها که داشتم کمک یکی دوستام میکردم دستگارش چیز خوبی بود.

• 1:37:04Speaker 02

  I remembered that when I was helping a friend of mine on the set of his film, I met his assistant and I realized that she could be a good fit.

• 1:37:16Speaker 04

  و اون فیلمم چون مثل فیلم های تو هستش به صورت زیزی نمینی سخته میشه.

• 1:37:23Speaker 02

  The family.

• 1:37:24Speaker 04

  حالا با اون آدمم میتونی اعتماد کنی.

• 1:37:27Speaker 02

  And because that film was made in the style of my films, Underground, I knew that I could trust that actor.

• 1:37:34Speaker 04

  این اکثری نو یا بازی نکردن یا توی فیلم های این چنینی بازه کردن.

• 1:37:42Speaker 02

  Most of my actors either had not acted before or they had acted in clandestinely made films.

• 1:37:50Sean Fennessey?

  I wanted to ask about Shiva. At first, I was surprised that there was not a filmmaking component to the movie. And then it occurred to me that she's a photographer. Is there a significance in Shiva being a photographer?

• 1:38:03Speaker 04

  In fact, we didn't mention a film. But this person was a reporter.

• 1:38:16Speaker 02

  I don't explain this in the film, but in fact, Shiva and the character of the bride were both journalists.

• 1:38:25Speaker 04

  Wahid says that he read the report. And he makes a reference to the bride. I thought that when they wrote that report, there must have been a journalist and a photojournalist. And that's why she came into the story. And the context is that they would have gone to prison,

• 1:38:52Speaker 02

  they would have been banned from working in journalism, and now she's out and she's doing just photography.

• 1:39:00Sean Fennessey?

  Can you talk a little bit about balancing tone? Is this struck me as, perhaps ironically, one of your funniest movies? And the subject matter is obviously incredibly intense, and it seems difficult to balance tone. How do you think about doing that when you're making a film?

• 1:39:16Speaker 04

  You see, in any event that happens in the daily life, usually, at the end of the day, you have some smiles going on too. The same thing that we have now. We tried to make some laugh.

• 1:39:29Speaker 02

  In this very interview that we're doing now, at the beginning, we tried to smile even if we were faking it, but we tried to make some laugh.

• 1:39:37Speaker 04

  You can make the actors laugh.

• 1:39:41Speaker 02

  Just so we could bring the audience along.

• 1:39:43Sean Fennessey?

  Speak for yourself, I'm not faking.

• 1:39:45Speaker 02

  I'm not faking.

• 1:40:19Speaker 04

  حالا، پس این مسئله توش، تو خودش به اتقام شده، تو یک واقعیت اتقام شده.

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  So this tone of laughter, smiles, humour has been combined into the film itself.

• 1:40:37Speaker 04

  یعنی همین رعالش میکنه.

• 1:40:39Speaker 02

  And this makes it in the genre of realism.

• 1:40:42Speaker 04

  و باور کردش میکنه.

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  And it makes it believable.

• 1:40:45Speaker 04

  اب حالا چطور توقع بودیم تو فیلم نباشه؟

• 1:40:48Speaker 02

  So how would we not expect it, how would we expect it to not be in the film?

• 1:40:53Speaker 04

  همون رو قابل تحمل تر میکنه.

• 1:40:56Speaker 02

  It also makes the subject matter more tolerable.

• 1:40:58Speaker 04

  بخصوص که من واقعا قسطر هم میخواستم تا بیست دقیقه آخرین اتفاق بیوفته.

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  Especially because I really did want this to be in the film, this tone of laughter, to be in the film until the very last twenty minutes of the film.

• 1:41:14Speaker 04

  میخواستم بیست دقیقه اول واقعا به تاثیر گذار باشه.

• 1:41:19Speaker 02

  بیست دقیقه آخر.

• 1:41:20Speaker 04

  بیست دقیقه آخر.

• 1:41:21Speaker 02

  I wanted the last twenty minutes to be very influential.

• 1:41:25Speaker 04

  اون قاعد که وقتی تماشگر از سینما میره بیرون هنوز به فیلم فکر میکنه.

• 1:41:30Speaker 02

  To the point that when the audience leaves the theatre, they would still be thinking about the film.

• 1:41:35Speaker 04

  پس یه تفاوتی باید ایجاد میکنم، فیلم بیه دست نمیشد.

• 1:41:39Speaker 02

  So I had to make some kind of a difference in tones in film and so that the film would not be monotonous.

• 1:41:46Speaker 04

  و حالا تصور کنی که اصلا من قسمت تا این تنز رو نداشت، این لبخند رو نداشت.

• 1:41:52Speaker 02

  Imagine those parts that had humour without humour, without smiles.

• 1:41:57Speaker 04

  مو تو بیست دقیقه آخر شما فقط یه یه دستی میدیدید، انقدر تاثیر گذار نبود.

• 1:42:02Speaker 02

  And that way the film would be monotonous until the last, also in the last twenty minutes, and it wouldn't have the impact that it does now.

• 1:42:11Speaker 04

  یعنی چونه یه تنابه لحنی چیزی نداشت داشت.

• 1:42:14Speaker 02

  Because there was no difference in tone.

• 1:42:16Sean Fennessey?

  I'd like to hear you talk a little bit about... The difference between fact and fiction and our sense of what is really happening and what not. Your last few films are exploring the balance between what's real and not real. This film, that's also part of the character's pursuit. Did the work on those movies inform writing this movie?

• 1:42:37Speaker 04

  مسلماً اینطوری هستش.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  Of course, they did help.

• 1:42:42Speaker 04

  شما بر فیلمین نهایتا واقعیت محسنیستش که شما دید القای واقعیت میکنید.

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  No film is pure reality. You're only inculcating reality.

• 1:42:56Speaker 04

  شما میاید از واقعیت ها الم میگیرید و تو تخيال خودم میبرید، دوباره به واقعیت بر میارونید.

• 1:43:06Speaker 02

  A filmmaker gets inspired by realities. Then the filmmaker brings those inspirations into their imagination, develops it in their imagination, and then brings it back into another form of reality.

• 1:43:20Speaker 04

  و تو این بازی که میشه سعی میکنید القای واقعیت کنید.

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  And in this game, you try to inculcate reality.

• 1:43:29Speaker 04

  در واقع این داستان اصلا اتفاق نیوفته.

• 1:43:32Speaker 02

  In fact, this story never happened.

• 1:43:34Speaker 04

  ولی تو تخيال شما اتفاق میوفته.

• 1:43:36Speaker 02

  It just happens in your imagination.

• 1:43:38Speaker 04

  اما بر اساس چی؟ بر اساس یه شواهدای عینی؟

• 1:43:42Speaker 02

  But based on what? Based on real preferences?

• 1:43:46Speaker 04

  یا بر اساس تخيالی که تو قبلا تجربه کردی؟

• 1:43:50Speaker 02

  Or based on imagination that you have had before?

• 1:43:54Speaker 04

  چشمی تو رو بستن، تو رو به روی نیم مچی دیوار نشوندن، یه قلم خودکار بهت دادن، حالا یکی داره، همش پوش سه تر راه میره و سوال میکنه یا سوال مینویسه.

• 1:44:08Speaker 02

  And based on experiences that you have had before, such as... You're being blindfolded in the prison, someone walking behind you and you hearing the sound of footsteps and them giving you a pen and a paper and asking you questions.

• 1:44:26Speaker 04

  و تو فقط داره حسش نواید بیشتر این کارایی رو میده.

• 1:44:30Speaker 02

  And now it's just your auditory sense that is working at its peak.

• 1:44:34Speaker 04

  و از روی این صدا داری فکر میکنی، اختیال میکنی که این چند ساله شه، چه شکلیه.

• 1:44:41Speaker 02

  You're only reconstructing reality based on the sounds you hear. You're thinking, how old is this person behind me? What does he look like?

• 1:44:49Speaker 04

  حالا اینو من بیرون ببینم، میتونم بشناسمش یا نه.

• 1:44:54Speaker 02

  If I see him outside, would I recognize him?

• 1:44:57Speaker 04

  و ببینید خود بازیه خود با خود شروع شده.

• 1:45:00Speaker 02

  So this game has already started.

• 1:45:02Speaker 04

  و وقتی هم که حالا میخوای در مورد همین مسئله بریزی، دیگه این بازی شدت بیشتری میگیره.

• 1:45:09Speaker 02

  And when you write about the same issue, then this game becomes increased and highlighted.

• 1:45:16Sean Fennessey?

  When you were in prison, did you take very specific notes so that you could find a way to reproduce or reimagine these experiences in your work?

• 1:45:25Speaker 04

  اصلا امورا به فکر فیلم ساختن نبوده.

• 1:45:29Speaker 02

  I really was not thinking about making films in prison.

• 1:45:31Speaker 04

  اصلا دل تخیولم هم نبود که بیگر روزی بخوام فیلم بسازم.

• 1:45:36Speaker 02

  It was not even on my mind that I would one day make a film.

• 1:45:40Speaker 04

  بلکه حد میخواستیم روز بگیره.

• 1:45:43Speaker 02

  I just wanted the time to pass.

• 1:45:46Speaker 04

  با همدیگه صحبت کنیم، درد دل کنیم، تجربیاتمونو بگیم.

• 1:45:54Speaker 02

  We were talking with one another. We were having empathy for each other. We were talking about our experiences as pastime.

• 1:46:03Speaker 04

  و این همینطوری ادامه پیدا میکرد و این بیرون از زندان بود که حالا تو فکر میکنی بااید یه کاری بکنه.

• 1:46:13Speaker 02

  This is, this kept continuing and it was only outside prison that you kept thinking you have to do something.

• 1:46:19Speaker 04

  و اونم به خاطر همون

• 1:46:23Speaker 04

  اینکه اون مدت با یه سری آدم زندگی کردی و حالا نمیتونی فراموششون کنی.

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  And that was because of the fact that I had lived with a number of people for some time in prison and I could not forget them.

• 1:46:35Speaker 04

  یه گوشه ذهنه دشغال شده و هی میخوایینو و هی بیرون بریزی.

• 1:46:41Speaker 02

  They had occupied somewhere in my mind and I just wanted to let go of those experiences.

• 1:46:47Speaker 04

  یا یک بار سنگینی رو دوشت که میخوایینو یه جور زمین بگذاری.

• 1:46:52Speaker 02

  Or I just wanted to unload a very heavy burden that was on my shoulders.

• 1:46:57Speaker 04

  بار سنگینی که فکر میکنی تو بیرون هستی، اونا اون تو هستن.

• 1:47:01Speaker 02

  And it was the burden of thinking that I am outside and my friends are still in prison.

• 1:47:06Speaker 04

  حالا تو باید یه کاری بکنی.

• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  And I realized I have to do something.

• 1:47:10Speaker 04

  و چون کاری جز فیلمسازی بلد نیستی حالا میگه خب در نظرشون فیلم میسازم.

• 1:47:17Speaker 02

  And because I knew nothing other than filmmaking, then I thought I'm going to make a film about them.

• 1:47:22Sean Fennessey?

  One scene that really resonates for me is the moment when they're on the roof and approached by security and the security guard or the officer pulls out a credit card machine. Which is incredibly specific. I'm wondering if you could talk about where that sequence comes from?

• 1:47:38Speaker 04

  مشخصه یه سری حکومت هایی که ساختار درستی رو ندارن اینه که توش به فساد و همه چی بریش دوونده.

• 1:47:52Speaker 02

  The one characteristic of regimes that don't have a specific, clear structure is that corruption has run its roots in everything.

• 1:48:07Speaker 04

  مثلا اونجا ایم که ما تو زندگیم بودیم واقعا مثلا یادم بیست دو بیست سه صد نفر شهاد دادم بودن که ما سیچه نفر همش سیاسی بودیم.

• 1:48:18Speaker 02

  When we were in prison, we were in a group of about three hundred, maybe, I don't remember, three hundred prisoners. It was only thirty or forty of us who were political prisoners.

• 1:48:29Speaker 04

  و بقیه مالی داشتن.

• 1:48:32Speaker 02

  And others had sentences for financial crime.

• 1:48:36Speaker 04

  یا هر اداری یا جایی که میری باید یه رشدی چیزی بدی.

• 1:48:41Speaker 02

  Or the fact that any office that you go to, anywhere you go to, you have to somehow bribe people.

• 1:48:47Speaker 04

  حالا این به لند معدابانش اینه که انام بدی، انام زورکی بدی.

• 1:48:52Speaker 02

  The polite way of saying it is that you have to tip people, or you have to, you are forced to tip people.

• 1:48:59Speaker 04

  حالا این مسئله کوچیکی و مسئله چیزی که مطرح کردم خیلی مسئله کوچیکی در مقابل اون اتفاقات، اون مسائل مالی گندهی که اتفاق میوفته.

• 1:49:13Speaker 02

  But this is of course a minute detail compared to the bigger corruption charges that are happening.

• 1:49:21Speaker 04

  من یادم که از یه جد داشتم میگذاشتم، دم یک چارراهی واس دادم و که چار قرمز بود و همونقای یکی دو تا این بچه های کار اومدن.

• 1:49:41Speaker 02

  I remember I was driving through an intersection and when there was a red light, one of these, one or two of these children, children of labor came to my car.

• 1:49:53Speaker 04

  خواستن شیش را تمیز کنن و اینا حتی آبم ریختن که تمیز شروع کردن، تمیز کردن.

• 1:49:59Speaker 02

  And they wanted to clean my windshield and I, they even started pouring water on it to start cleaning it.

• 1:50:06Speaker 04

  شیش را بگیری، بگیری و اینکه شم گفتون میخواه دست نزن، لطان به بسرم دست نزن.

• 1:50:11Speaker 02

  I asked one of them, "Son, please don't touch the car, please don't do this."

• 1:50:15Speaker 04

  نه، اون داشت کار خودشون میکردن.

• 1:50:17Speaker 02

  And he kept doing what he wanted to do.

• 1:50:18Speaker 04

  گفتان به این، الان کسی دیگه پول تو جیبش نمیذاره، من پول ندارم بهت بدам.

• 1:50:24Speaker 02

  I said to him, "Nobody carries cash around and I don't have any cash to give you."

• 1:50:28Speaker 04

  اف اب نداره دستگاه پوزدارم.

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  He said, "It's okay, I have a credit card machine."

• 1:50:35Speaker 04

  خب اینا هم یه جوری تجربات هم میگردیم. به اتفاق دوستانی که فیلم نام را میلیشید. خب اینم خود به خود اومد توی کار.

• 1:50:46Speaker 02

  Of course, myself and friends who collaborated with me on writing this script have had similar experiences and they somehow made their way into the film.

• 1:50:59Sean Fennessey?

  During that sequence and a few others, I thought of your friend Abbas Kiarzami a bit while watching the movie. I wonder, was he on your mind while you were working on this? What do you think he would make of this movie?

• 1:51:09Speaker 04

  نیبیدم آقای کیستم، میادا نیستش.

• 1:51:12Speaker 02

  I don't know, he's no longer with us.

• 1:51:18Speaker 04

  نیبیدم آقایا فیلم خوشش میومد یا نمیومد.

• 1:51:21Speaker 02

  I don't know if he would like the film or not.

• 1:51:23Sean Fennessey?

  Do you hope that he would?

• 1:51:24Speaker 04

  آدم دلش خواهد، همه فیلمش خوشش میبین.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  Naturally, you want everyone to like your film.

• 1:51:31Sean Fennessey?

  You've said in the past that you felt you couldn't make a film outside of Iran because you don't know the culture outside of your home country. You've been traveling this past year? Are your ideas changing about that at all?

• 1:51:44Speaker 04

  آقای سفر سفر نیستش که.

• 1:51:46Speaker 02

  But this is not traveling.

• 1:51:48Speaker 04

  یا تو هواپیمایی.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  I'm either on the plane.

• 1:51:52Speaker 04

  یا تو اینجوری اوتاکی.

• 1:51:53Speaker 02

  Or I'm in a room like this.

• 1:51:56Speaker 04

  کجاش با مردم اتفاق داری.

• 1:51:58Speaker 02

  Where am I in contact with people?

• 1:52:01Speaker 04

  اتفاقا مثلا هودل بازه من میگیرن یه جایی که خیلی جای خلبت و اینطور چیزاست.

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  Sometimes they get my hotels in very... in neighborhoods that are not crowded or not among people.

• 1:52:15Speaker 04

  یا خوبه با این تو خوبه، این هودل خیلی شیکه، خیلی بالاس و اینطور چیزا.

• 1:52:22Speaker 02

  I say this is nice, it's a very luxurious fancy hotel.

• 1:52:26Speaker 04

  خب من میخوام تو دل مردم باشه، تو جمیت به لولم.

• 1:52:29Speaker 02

  But I really want to be among people, I want to be in the crowds.

• 1:52:32Speaker 04

  لطفا هودل بازه من یه جایی بگیری که مردم باشه آدم یه ده دقه، یه ساعت بیکاره بیاد بره بینشون باشه.

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  Please get my hotel in areas where if I have 10 minutes or one hour, I could just meet people.

• 1:52:47Speaker 04

  ولی دوستان لود دارن همش من اینا دور میکنن.

• 1:52:51Speaker 02

  But our friends, because they're very kind to me, they take me to other neighborhoods.

• 1:52:58Sean Fennessey?

  If anyone could make an interesting movie about promoting a movie though, given Taxi, given This is Not a Film, I think that you could do that.

• 1:53:06Speaker 04

  نمیدونم یعنی چی.

• 1:53:08Speaker 02

  I don't know what that means.

• 1:53:09Speaker 04

  من بذات نیستم.

• 1:53:10Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know how to make that.

• 1:53:13Sean Fennessey?

  Have you figured out what you are doing next?

• 1:53:15Speaker 04

  اب نمیدونم که من در مورد جنگ باید فیلم بسازم.

• 1:53:19Speaker 02

  I just know that I have to make a film about war.

• 1:53:22Speaker 04

  یه زمونیم، 15 سال، 20 سال پیش، 5 سال دنباره یه تری دویدم.

• 1:53:30Speaker 02

  There was a time about 15 years ago that I tried really hard for five years to make a project, to make a film project.

• 1:53:37Speaker 04

  اون موقع چون به صورت زی زمینی نمیشد کار کرد، چون امکانات غسته میخواسته، بیک پودو نکشنه.

• 1:53:45Speaker 02

  It was not a film that I could make underground because it is a, or it was a big production.

• 1:53:51Speaker 04

  آ، اون فیلمامه اولیه ارها من اون موقع نوشته بودیم.

• 1:53:54Speaker 02

  I had written the initial script.

• 1:53:57Speaker 04

  ولی نشد.

• 1:53:58Speaker 02

  But I couldn't make it.

• 1:53:59Speaker 04

  اما الان اتفاقهایی که در دنیا میوفته واقعا ادم دشوار ترس میشه.

• 1:54:05Speaker 02

  But with everything going on in the world, it really scares me.

• 1:54:09Speaker 04

  یه حالا باید من در مورد این مسئله جنگ یک فیلم انسانی بسازم.

• 1:54:14Speaker 02

  And it tells me that I have to make a humanistic film about war.

• 1:54:18Speaker 04

  نه اینکه فیلم جنگی بسازم، بلکه یک فیلم اجتماعی با موضوع جنگ بسازم.

• 1:54:23Speaker 02

  Not to make a war movie, but to make a socially engaged movie with the subject matter of war.

• 1:54:29Speaker 04

  مثل یک تصادف وساده، مثلا این فیلمو سیاسی نمیدونم، بیگم یک فیلم اجتماعی با موضوع سیاسی.

• 1:54:40Speaker 02

  Just like it was just an accident, I do not consider it a political film. I consider it a social film with a political subject matter.

• 1:54:49Speaker 04

  حالا یه وقتی پیدا میکنم تو این سفرها و این hotel های دور افتاده که حاصل میگیرن، بعضی وقت وقت میکنم که بشینم یه خورده اونو اصطلاحیش کنم.

• 1:55:01Speaker 02

  Sometimes I get a chance in, on these trips and in these faraway hotels that they book for me, to sit down and work on my scripts about the war.

• 1:55:12Sean Fennessey?

  Would a film like that have to be made differently than what you've been doing in recent years?

• 1:55:17Speaker 04

  نه، دقیقاً یک فلمی گفتم، فلم اشتمالیه، اسش با موضوع جنگی.

• 1:55:22Speaker 02

  No, as I said, it's going to be a socially engaged film with the subject of war. فکر کنم این مانظورش مخفی بودن و بیگ پرودکشن.

• 1:55:33Speaker 04

  نه، نه، این اصلاً امکاناتی نیستش مخفی باشه.

• 1:55:37Speaker 02

  It cannot be made clandestinely, absolutely not.

• 1:55:40Speaker 04

  یا هم امکانات وسیع میخواد، هم سیالنشکه رو بازگرای زیادی میخواد.

• 1:55:49Speaker 02

  It needs a big production, a lot of budget and a lot of resources.

• 1:55:54Sean Fennessey?

  Does the success of this movie make that more possible for you?

• 1:55:58Speaker 04

  من هیچ وقت اینطوری نگاه نمیکنم اخواه بچیز به مسئله.

• 1:56:02Speaker 02

  I really don't look at making films as such.

• 1:56:07Speaker 04

  من میشه میگم که این فلمو بهش معتقدم باید بسازمش.

• 1:56:13Speaker 02

  I always say to myself, I believe in this film and I have to make it.

• 1:56:17Speaker 04

  حالا باید راه بیدا کنه.

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

  And I have to just find a solution for it.

• 1:56:21Speaker 04

  حالا این راه چه زمانی، چه کی، ایجاد خواهد شد نمیدم.

• 1:56:25Speaker 02

  And I don't know when that solution will come, how, and at what time.

• 1:56:30Sean Fennessey?

  Jafar, we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers, what is the last great thing they have seen? I know you've been traveling and staying in hotels, but have you seen anything great lately?

• 1:56:40Speaker 04

  آ، آخرین فلم بیکه فکر کنم دیدم فلم، همین یک فلم ایرانی بود که ترمیم شده بود و قرار بود که من در موردش حرف بزنم.

• 1:56:52Speaker 02

  The last film I saw was an Iranian film that had been reconstructed.

• 1:56:57Speaker 04

  کار استاد بیزایی بودش، فلم باشو قریبی کوچک.

• 1:57:02Speaker 02

  It is by Rahram Bezae, Maestro Bezae, and it is called Ba Shu, A Little Stranger.

• 1:57:08Speaker 04

  اتفاقا اونم در مورد جنگ بود.

• 1:57:10Speaker 02

  And in fact, that too is about war.

• 1:57:13Sean Fennessey?

  It's a great recommendation. Thank you very much.

• 1:57:22Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. Thank you to Jafar Panahi. Thank you to his interpreter. Thank you to our producer, Jack Sanders, for his work on this epic episode. We'll be back on Wednesday to talk about Noah Baumbach's new film, Jay Kelly. What else? What else is going on with you? You gotta go to a parent-teacher conference. You gotta go see Hamlet again.

• 1:57:40Amanda Dobbins?

  Yeah. I got a lot of movies to watch.

• 1:57:43Sean Fennessey?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:43Amanda Dobbins?

  And a lot of podcasting with you. And gonna meet Santa at some point.

• 1:57:49Sean Fennessey?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:57:50Amanda Dobbins?

  And...

• 1:57:51Sean Fennessey?

  Just you. Just solo. You guys sit on his lap.

• 1:57:53Amanda Dobbins?

  Uh huh. Uh huh. And I'm trying to lock down that jacket, you know? Greatest mommy.

• 1:57:58Sean Fennessey?

  You're getting online now?

• 1:58:00Sean Fennessey?

  Okay. We'll see you on Wednesday.

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