#2419 - John Lisle

John Lisle has a Ph. D. in history from the University of Texas, where he is now a professor of the history of science. His two books on the intelligence community are "The Dirty Tricks Department" and "Project Mind Control: Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA, and the Tragedy of MKULTRA."www.johnlislehistorian.comhttps://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250338747/projectmindcontrol/ Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visible. Live in the know. Join today at https://www.visible.com Don’t miss out on all the action - Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up at https://dkng.co/rogan or with my promo code ROGAN •GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, (800) 327-5050 or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD). 21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS). Pass-thru of per wager tax may apply in IL. 1 per new customer. Must register new account to receive reward Token. Must select Token BEFORE placing min. $5 bet to receive $200 in Bonus Bets if your bet wins. Min. -500 odds req. Token and Bonus Bets are single-use and non-withdrawable. Token expires 1/11/26. Bonus Bets expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Ends 1/4/26 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  John, what's happening, man?

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Not much, it's good to be here.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  Very nice to meet you.

• 0:15Speaker 01

  You too, thanks for having me.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  I know you're in the middle of a project, you're doing a project with David Chase, right? It's about MKUltra and...

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Yes, he has gotten the rights to this book, you know, this book, Project Mind Control, and he's interested in adapting it into a series.

• 0:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, I am endlessly fascinated with the subject, so as soon as I heard about it, and they said, "The series is coming, but you could talk to the guy who wrote the book," now I'm like, "Let's go." So, here we go. Project Mind Control: Sidney Gottlieb, the CIA, and the Tragedy of MKUltra, which really is a tragedy. You know, I really got, and I knew about it, but I really didn't get completely obsessed with it until Chaos, Tom O'Neill's book. Have you read that?

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00Joe Rogan?

  And when you realize what the MKUltra program involved, and how long it ran, and how insane it is, and it essentially had no oversight, and these people were just running these wild mind experiments on American citizens, and nobody went to jail for it.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's part of the crazy thing. One of the things I really try to focus on in the book, especially the second half of the book, are the consequences of MKUltra in society, but also just what happened to these people afterwards, the victims of MKUltra. They launched several lawsuits against the CIA, and basically, really, nothing much came out of it. They got paid a little bit of money, but the people who perpetrated MKUltra, they didn't really face any consequences, and so I'm glad you brought that up, because one of the things I really try to talk about in the latter part of the book are, what are the failures of oversight that allowed this to happen? How is that possible? How could people within the CIA be doing these kinds of drug experiments on people unwittingly, and yet never face any, hardly, consequences for their actions? So, I'd delve into that pretty deeply.

• 2:01Joe Rogan?

  How did you get interested in the subject? Like, what was your introduction to it?

• 2:07Speaker 01

  I feel like my introduction is a little bit different probably from most people because I didn't know that much about MKUltra and I was doing my PhD at UT. And I studied the history of science, but my dissertation was on a group of scientists within the intelligence, they had connections to the intelligence community. They were called the Science Attaches out of the State Department. The State Department would send these Science Attaches to different embassies, American embassies around the world. And the CIA was very interested in these people because, hey, we have these scientists going abroad. Maybe they can interrogate foreign scientists and figure out what kind of research they're doing. So that kind of led me into being interested in scientists within the intelligence community. And from that, I learned about Sidney Gottlieb, but also mostly, my initial interest was

• 2:51Speaker 01

  this man named Stanley Lovell, who was essentially the Sidney Gottlieb of the OSS. So prior to the CIA, the US had the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services during World War II. And that was the US kind of intelligence agency. And Stanley Lovell was in charge of a branch within the OSS called the Research and Development Branch. And that was the branch that was composed of a group of scientists whose job was to basically invent the deadly weapons, create ingenious disguises, forge documents for secret agents that are sent abroad. Fun stuff. Oh, yeah. My first book, The Dirty Tricks Department, it's about Stanley Lovell and that group. And one of the things they do are drug experiments, and truth drug experiments, trying to find

• 3:33Speaker 01

  out whether it's possible to give someone, you know, a captured enemy agent, some kind of drug to make them tell the truth during an interrogation. And it turns out, when I was researching that book, I came across a series of depositions, of which Sidney Gottlieb is one of the deponents, who would later lead MKUltra. And in these depositions, he was talking about how, when he was assigned to be in charge of MKUltra, he didn't really know where to begin. He didn't know anything about mind control. So one of the things that he did, he went into the old OSS files and was starting to look at the drug experiments that Stanley Lovell was doing. And so I thought, that's the connection between Stanley Lovell, my first book, and now this one. So that naturally led me into becoming interested in MKUltra. So a lot of the things that Sidney Gottlieb was up to with MKUltra, his blueprint was basically Stanley Lovell.

• 4:17Joe Rogan?

  Just imagine being a government agent to the CIA, the OSS, whatever it is. And then someone says, hey, figure out if we can control people's minds. And that's where you start from, right? It's not like Sidney Gottlieb was some expert hypnotist or really was a psychologist or really understood human minds. No, they like started a program going, what can we do? How can we fuck with people's minds? How can we figure out how to control people's minds? And they did it for decades.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:47Joe Rogan?

  And they're probably still doing it now.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Well, even before MKUltra. So there are a couple of programs that precede it. I mean, you know, so during World War II, the OSS was already doing truth drug experiments, not with LSD, because that wasn't really around then. But with THC acetate, they would inject it into cigarettes and have people smoke it.

• 5:05Joe Rogan?

  So they just get high?

• 5:06Speaker 01

  They would get high.

• 5:07Joe Rogan?

  And tell the truth?

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Well.

• 5:08Joe Rogan?

  Supposedly?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Supposedly. The idea was that it lowers their inhibitions and so maybe they'll be more amenable to talking.

• 5:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's hilarious. They just gave them spliffs.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 5:16Joe Rogan?

  They basically gave them spliffs. That's what Europeans smoke.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  No, and so one of the guys who was actually on the truth drug committee that was kind of overseeing these drug experiments during World War II was Harry Anslinger, who of course is launching this crusade against marijuana. And at the same time, he's overseeing these experiments about dosing people with THC. So it's very ironic that that was the case.

• 5:35Joe Rogan?

  It's really stunning, the kind of damage those people did to just our trust in government. What we, you know, what we know about these psychedelic compounds and drugs and like what they did with them that completely changed our idea of what the future of legalization and all these. There's so much negative impact to what they did. On top of what they did, they essentially created Ted Kaczynski.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Well, I'm a little.

• 6:06Joe Rogan?

  Are you on the fence on that?

• 6:07Speaker 01

  I'm a little skeptical of whether MKUltra is connected to that.

• 6:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's certainly Harvard and the LSD experiments that did it Harvard. And I don't imagine they would do that without the involvement of the government.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 6:18Joe Rogan?

  Without them wanting to have access to research. If you have people at Harvard that are doing like really critical LSD studies on people, humiliation studies.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  With him in particular, the study that he was involved in was Henry Murray was the guy who was running that is like a psychological experiment about, I think it was interpersonal relationships where he would basically interrogate them and berate them and see how they reacted to it. Now, Henry Murray, who ran that experiment with Ted Kaczynski, he did have connections to the intelligence community. I just am not convinced that he was funded by MKUltra or something. His connection, he has a couple of connections. One connection that I mentioned in my first book, The Dirty Tricks Department, he was tasked with creating psychological profiles of German leaders like Hitler. And so the idea was that he would kind of figure out what their psychology was and maybe we could find ways to exploit that psychology.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  So Stanley Lovell, who is the head of this R and D branch of the OSS, he read Henry Murray's psychological profile of Hitler and he decided, maybe I can figure out a way to kind of drive Hitler crazy by using this. So Henry Murray, Henry Murray said that Hitler had a very feminine kind of personality. He was on the border between masculine and feminine and, you know, at least that's what Henry Murray is saying in this psychological profile. Stanley Lovell reads that and he thinks, maybe I can exploit this by getting one of the gardeners near the eagles where Hitler often had some meetings. There were some gardeners down there. We can get an agent to slip a gardener some female sex hormone and that gardener, that gardener can inject it into the beets that are destined for Hitler's plate. Hitler's gonna eat it

• 7:50Speaker 01

  and it's gonna like exacerbate this feminine tendency and it's gonna make him go crazy or something like that. That was the plan. That never actually happened, but so Henry Murray is kind of connected to the OSS in that sense. And then later he developed some personality tests for the OSS and CIA, I believe it was for recruits, to give these to recruits to determine whether they kind of have the psychological profile that would be unmeanable to being in an intelligence organization.

• 8:15Joe Rogan?

  Did you see that they recently did a scan of some blood that was found in Hitler's bunker and they determined that he has a very unusual gene expression? Can you find out what that is? It's something that would lead to him potentially having a micropenis? Yeah.

• 8:36Joe Rogan?

  You know, like the most obvious psychological profile ever. A guy wants to destroy everything in the world. He's got a tiny dick.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Well, maybe Henry Murray was onto something.

• 8:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm sure he was. Hitler's DNA, I'm sure there was something, some research behind it. Like, somebody must have said something about him.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I hadn't heard of that. I didn't know that.

• 8:53Joe Rogan?

  Hitler's DNA reveals Nazi leader likely had syndrome that can affect genitals, researchers say. According to the Cleveland Clinic, the syndrome can disrupt the process that drives puberty and manifest in symptoms that include undescended testicles and a micropenis. Isn't that wild?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:09Joe Rogan?

  Which totally makes sense. Like, we should kill everyone with a micropenis. They're too dangerous.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  It is, you know, maybe useful to be careful about correlation and causation. A lot of people probably have this and that doesn't cause them to become Hitler.

• 9:22Joe Rogan?

  Sweetest people out there. I'm just kidding. Obviously, there's like the nicest people out there that just happen to have a micropenis. It actually makes them really sensitive.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Maybe his.

• 9:30Joe Rogan?

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• 11:10Joe Rogan?

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• 11:51Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 11:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, he was also on a bunch of drugs. You know, he had like a special doctor that just worked for him.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, those videos of him at sporting events or whatever. He's like rocking back and forth. It's incredible.

• 12:03Joe Rogan?

  1936 Olympics, just completely out of his mind on something. Have you read Norman Oler's book, Blitz?

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Blitz, yes. I don't know if I've read the whole thing. I know I dipped into it. I can't remember.

• 12:14Joe Rogan?

  It's insane.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:16Joe Rogan?

  It's insane.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 12:18Joe Rogan?

  The entire Nazi army was methed out of their minds.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know what these? There are a lot of LSD experiments after World War II, within the CIA and MKUltra, of course, but also Army LSD experiments that aren't really connected to MKUltra. So I don't go into them that much in this book. But there are, you know, the British are doing LSD experiments on their personnel. The US military does too.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  You know, it's just some of the stories that come out of it are very silly and really just insane, but there was one document I found that talks about how they were giving these two army personnel, these two soldiers LSD, to see how they reacted to it. And so each of them took the LSD, they were in like a padded room, isolated with each other, so nobody else was there, and they started hallucinating, and one of them pretended to like start smoking a cigarette, and he didn't actually have a cigarette, he had nothing, you know, but he just pretended to smoke a cigarette, and the other guy was off in his own world, and then the first guy, he reached into his pocket and took out an imaginary pack of cigarettes, he didn't actually have one, it was just an empty hand, but he was just hallucinating that there was one, and he reached it out to the other guy, basically to offer, hey, do you want a cigarette, and the other guy looked at

• 13:25Speaker 01

  it and he said, no, I couldn't take your last one. It was just an empty hand, there was nothing there.

• 13:29Joe Rogan?

  What? No, I couldn't take your last one.

• 13:32Speaker 01

  They were having like this shared hallucination or something.

• 13:34Joe Rogan?

  Wow, wow. I mean, also, back then, we didn't really know too much about that stuff, so they were kind of gathering information about what would happen if you gave someone LSD.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Yep, that's kind of the motivation for MKUltra in the first place. There are several motivating factors. One of them is, how do we get prisoners to speak during an interrogation? Maybe there's some, maybe there is some kind of truth drug that can get them to tell us the secrets that we want to know. Another is, maybe we can use this to discredit individuals, like Fidel Castro. Let's say we dose him with LSD before a big speech, he appears to be crazy, and his people are going to lose trust in him because he's making nonsense, you know, he's just talking gibberish.

• 14:15Joe Rogan?

  Was that proposed?

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, there was proposed a plan to put LSD into cigars that would sneak into Castro's kind of place, that he would smoke before he'd give a speech.

• 14:24Joe Rogan?

  What I don't understand about that is they were trying to kill him, so if they couldn't get poison into his cigars, why'd they think they could get acid in there?

• 14:30Speaker 01

  The original plan was to discredit him, and then the later plan was to kill him.

• 14:34Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  So there were a couple of original plans to discredit him. One is to sneak him LSD to make him appear insane, so that his people will lose faith in him. Another one was to slip what's called thallium salts into his shoes, and these are depilatories, they make your hair fall out. And so the idea was that, you know, he's got this masculine allure with his big beard. But if we can slip these depilatories into his shoes and he puts them on, his beard's gonna fall out and like Samson, he's gonna lose his power or something like that. That was the idea. So Sidney Gottlieb was kind of involved in some of these that I talk about in the book. Another one, so you have the LSD, you have the depilatory. Another one was to Photoshop images, basically, of Castro with a bunch of beautiful women around him and like a buffet of food in front of him and to have a caption underneath it

• 15:18Speaker 01

  that said, "My ration is different," to indicate like, "I'm getting all the benefits of, you know, this, you know, the spoils of society while my people are going hungry." And so, you know, the idea was to spread this around Cuba and have people resent Castro for indulging in all these.

• 15:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, that one's actually reasonable.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:34Joe Rogan?

  Right?

• 15:34Speaker 01

  A little bit more than the others.

• 15:36Joe Rogan?

  That one's probably the closest to accurate.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. So those were attempts to discredit Castro and then there were several attempts to assassinate him that Sidney Gottlieb and others involved kind of in this story do. So some of the main assassination attempts on Castro involved his hobby of ocean diving. So he liked to dive in the ocean. And one idea was that, what if we get this really beautiful shell that he would just be unable to pass up? It would be so beautiful that if anyone swam by it, they would obviously want to pick it up. We pack the shell full of explosives and put it on, have some kind of trigger mechanism for when you pick it up that detonates the explosives. So when he's underwater, he's gonna swim by this, he's gonna see this beautiful shell, he's gonna pick it up and it's gonna explode. But it turns out, they couldn't really figure out a shell big enough that would catch his

• 16:21Speaker 01

  interest, you know, so that never happened. Another concept with his scuba diving hobby is that, what if we gift him a scuba diving suit? There are people kind of negotiating for the return of the Bay of Pigs prisoners. So what if we get one of those lawyers to gift Castro a suit? And in that suit, we would lace it with some kind of poison or some kind of fungus that would cause him to break out and what, develop some kind of disease. But it turns out, the guy that they wanted to give him the suit had already given him a diving suit. And so it was like, "Oh, we can't use him anymore."

• 16:53Joe Rogan?

  Wow. And they were the people running it?

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:58Joe Rogan?

  That was the best they could do?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:59Joe Rogan?

  But it's just the concept of not having any experience whatsoever in any studies about mind control and just given this assignment. What do you know about mind control? What can we do? How much does it work? What did the Nazis learn during World War II? Because they did a lot of experiments, right?

• 17:17Speaker 01

  They're doing a lot of experiments. And it is, you know, I mentioned the OSS is doing truth drug experiments. The Nazis are doing truth drug experiments in their concentration camps as well. And the British are doing some truth drug experiments during World War II as well.

• 17:30Joe Rogan?

  You can get the British ones online. The, well, at least the post-World War II ones. Was it 1950s? You can, have you seen the British LSD studies? Oh, you haven't seen it?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I don't think so.

• 17:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's wonderful. You should watch it. We'll watch it real quick because it's kind of hilarious. They start breaking out. They can't, they can't, you have seen it?

• 17:45Speaker 01

  I think so. The soldiers all in a row.

• 17:47Joe Rogan?

  Some of them, they start laughing. They're in the middle of doing their task and they just start laughing uncontrollably and they sit down.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you know, during, I mentioned those like THC acetate experiments during World War II. These guys are...

• 18:00Joe Rogan?

  These giant smiles on their face.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:03Joe Rogan?

  This guy's having a guard go of it.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, he might have been having a downer or something.

• 18:07Joe Rogan?

  He had to be removed from the experiment after 35 minutes. Look at the radio operator trying to figure out how to work it. They're just, they're just so confused.

• 18:20Joe Rogan?

  And eventually they just start laying down and just laugh like these guys, these guys just...

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and these, these THC experiments during World War, oh, thank God. For some of the people, they would give them this THC, they would smoke it through a cigarette. And, you know, some of the reactions it talked about was it made them just uncontrollably start laughing and it put them in a good mood. And like, some of the reactions were, oh yeah, I mean, they were just getting these people high and they were reacting to this.

• 18:50Joe Rogan?

  It didn't make them tell the truth.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 18:52Joe Rogan?

  Of course not.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  It did actually make them talk more, though. Because they, they actually recorded these interviews and they would count the number of words per minute that these people spoke. And it turns out after they smoked this, they would, they would talk about like 40% more words per minute. But it's not that this guaranteed the truth. They were just talking.

• 19:07Joe Rogan?

  They're just randomly, they're talking about cartoons.

• 19:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's, it's, what other drugs did they experiment with? Did they experiment with amphetamines?

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah. So, um, one, well, I should mention that MKUltra was broken into 149 subprojects.

• 19:23Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  So, MKUltra was the umbrella term, and within MKUltra, there are 149 subprojects that were kind of farmed out to, in many cases, independent researchers who might be working at a hospital, or a prison, or a university, or something like that. One of the main people who is running these studies is a guy named Harris Isbell at the Lexington Narcotic Farm. This is where drug addicts could go to get treatment for their addiction. Prisoners could go there as well. And whenever Sidney Gottlieb found a drug that he was interested in, he would basically just give it to Harris Isbell, who could try it out on these prisoners to see how they reacted, and then Isbell would write reports back to Gottlieb. So he tried psilocybin when that came out, LSD, but also stuff like, I mean, heroin.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  The CIA was particularly interested in heroin, because if you can induce an addiction in a captured agent, let's say, then you can use that as leverage in interrogation, the withdrawal symptoms. So you get them addicted to heroin, and then use the withdrawal symptoms, saying, "Well, if you tell us about this, maybe I'll, you know, give you a little..."

• 20:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  So that was, at least, the concept. But there were, I mean, dozens and dozens of different kinds of drugs they were testing just to see how people reacted to them, and if any of them could be used as a potential truth drug.

• 20:35Joe Rogan?

  The heroin one actually makes sense. I never thought of that.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, one of the, one of the ironies as well about this experiment that I mentioned, you know, Harris Isbell, and giving these prisoners all these drugs, the prisoners are in this place, it's called the Narcotic Farm, because they're supposed to be getting off drugs. You know, they're supposed to be, you know, curing them of their addiction, at the same time, they're giving them all these drugs to test them out, and then, as a reward for participating in these trials, they had two options. Either they could get like a positive letter in the parole board, and like 100 bucks or something, or they could go to the drug bank window, stick out their arm, and they would get a needle full of heroin as a reward.

• 21:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  So they were supposed to be getting off drugs, and yet you're incentivizing them to participate in these drug trials by giving them drugs.

• 21:19Joe Rogan?

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• 22:05Joe Rogan?

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• 22:13Speaker 01

  Wow. Yeah, so that's one of 149 subprojects.

• 22:17Joe Rogan?

  Are you aware that heroin was created as a... it was a substitute for people that were addicted to morphine?

• 22:25Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 22:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 22:29Joe Rogan?

  That's correct, right? Search that. I'm pretty sure that's correct. Yeah, they came up with heroin to treat people that were addicted to morphine.

• 22:41Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 22:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's like oxycon... giving them oxycontin if they're addicted to heroin. It's the same thing.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:48Joe Rogan?

  But getting someone addicted to that and then pulling it away from them seems like it would be very effective in terms of getting them to give up information.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was the idea, and...

• 23:00Joe Rogan?

  So here it is. We put it into our sponsor, Perplexity. "Heroin created as a morphine treatment. Originally developed in late 19th century as a medical drug that was indeed marketed as an improved, non-addictive alternative to morphine and as a cough suppressant."

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Hey, what do you know?

• 23:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, how nuts. Who... what company came up with it?

• 23:20Joe Rogan?

  Bear. There you go, fucking bear.

• 23:25Joe Rogan?

  I think at the same time they were doing this, they just, um, find out if it's true that acetaminophen is what's toxic in Tylenol, correct? Find out if it's true that at the same time they decided that acetaminophen was too dangerous.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  I think that is Tylenol. What do you mean?

• 23:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, the substance, you know, that's Tylenol's the name brand.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  What's the question then?

• 23:50Joe Rogan?

  Um, did they, poor Jamie, if you hear his voice, ladies and gentlemen, inform the people at home. Poor Jamie got a tooth pulled last night. It was, it's rough. And he, not even, yeah, excuse me. Last night you were in pain. Today you got a tooth pulled. And he's got what looks like a softball stuffed in his cheek.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 24:10Joe Rogan?

  Um, did Bear decide not to release acetaminophen during the same time period?

• 24:19Joe Rogan?

  During the pandemic, I got fascinated with acetaminophen because I read this horrible story about this poor lady who got COVID and she was in real pain. So she took a bunch of acetaminophen. She took a bunch of Tylenol and kept taking it and apparently didn't realize how dangerous it is to overdose on Tylenol. And she died of liver poisoning. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God, how many people die of liver poisoning? It's like 500 a year in this country. It's like acetaminophen, it's scary stuff. Was not being actively held back by Bayer at the same period that it promoted heroin and Aspen. It was simply not yet recognized or marketed the way those drugs were. And its development and adoption followed a different path. Existing historical accounts focus more on scientific uncertainty and competing drugs than on deliberate suppression campaign by Bayer.

• 25:04Joe Rogan?

  I don't think, I was, I don't think they were saying in this article that I read that it was a, that they were suppressing it. That they decided not to focus on it because it was dangerous. Why acetaminophen less? Early clinicians favored phenacetate and acetamin... How does that work?

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Acetaminolide?

• 25:26Joe Rogan?

  Acetaminolide. Despite their later recognized toxicity and acetaminophen's advantages, better safety profile at therapeutic doses, was not clearly distinguished at first. Okay. Anyway, we're getting off track.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  I was just gonna say, one of the ironic things, too, with some of these MKUltra subprojects, they're interested in finding these supposed truth drugs that could get someone to tell the truth during an interrogation. But it turns out, even just the threat of giving someone a truth drug turned out to be a lot more effective than any drug that they actually tried out. So, for instance, in an interrogation, if you tell someone that this is a truth drug and I'm gonna give it to you and it's gonna make you tell the truth, that can lower their defenses a bit in the sense that the person who takes this, that might give them kind of the permission to be able to talk.

• 26:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Because it makes them think, "Well, I couldn't have stopped myself. Well, they gave me this truth drug, of course I'm gonna have to say this, so I can't be blamed. No one's gonna blame me." So it takes kind of the burden off their shoulders if they think they've been given a truth drug, even if they haven't, just give them a sugar pill. So that actually turned out to be a lot more effective than any of the drugs that they actually tried.

• 26:30Joe Rogan?

  That totally makes sense.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  They did the same thing with hypnotism, too. The hypnotism turned out to be not that effective, at least in an interrogation, but if you could convince someone that they had been hypnotized, even if they hadn't, then that could be effective. So, for instance, this is what a guy called Martin Orne, he was one of the psychologists who was in charge of one of these subprojects. But he put forward what's called the hypnotic situation, not hypnotism, but the hypnotic situation. So, for instance, you pretend to hypnotize someone, the person you're interrogating, and they know they're not hypnotized. They obviously can tell that, "You're not controlling me, nothing's happening." However, you start saying things like, "I'm hypnotizing you and your hands are getting warmer," and they're gonna think to themselves, "No, they're not."

• 27:15Speaker 01

  But under the table, you secretly implanted a heater, and their hands actually are getting warmer, because where they're sitting, there's this heater under that that they don't know exists, and it's making their hands warmer. So after a certain period of time, they start thinking to themselves, "Maybe I am being hypnotized, like the things that he's saying are actually happening." And so if you can make them think that they've been hypnotized, again, that lowers their resistance, because, "I mean, who could blame me for talking now? I've been hypnotized, I couldn't help myself but talk." At least, that's the idea.

• 27:41Joe Rogan?

  It's just so fascinating to me how much time and effort was spent. Just studying how to control people's minds and trying to come up with ways to do it.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:51Joe Rogan?

  It must have been really exciting to be them. I mean, I think what they did is horrible. I don't, you know, I'm not in any way forgiving MKUltra for what they did. However, boy, it must have been fun just to have no oversight, no one even knows you exist.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  You kind of get this impression by looking at some of these MKUltra documents, especially at the beginning, before the Frank Olson incident, when Frank Olson eventually dies after one of these experiments. And so that kind of, that definitely puts a damper on a lot of things that are going on. Before that, though, I do get the sense that it's almost like they're a bunch of guys just trying to, you know, play around with each other in a way, even though what they're doing is completely unethical. But they would just be dosing like the CIA coffee pot and see what happens to people who are taking drinks of it. Just to, I mean, the rationale is that, well, if the Soviets possessed some kind of hallucinogenic drug and they were going to release it into the water supply of a city, we need to know how people would react to that because we need to know how to defend against that. Therefore, we should be doing that to people just to see how they react to it

• 28:52Speaker 01

  so that we know what kind of signs to look for in case the Soviets do that.

• 28:56Joe Rogan?

  Didn't they dose up a town in France?

• 28:58Speaker 01

  I don't think the CIA was connected to that. I mean, I think it actually was like an ergot poisoning that came from the bread. I think so, but yeah.

• 29:06Joe Rogan?

  But there was some speculation that it was purpose.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, the town's called Point Saint Esprit, I believe. But yeah, there were multiple dozens of people who came down with hallucinogenic symptoms. They were, one guy stripped naked and started running around the street. Multiple people died after this. But that was one of the things that led the CIA to become really interested in hallucinogens because if a poisoning from a bakery could cause that much havoc within this one French town, how much more damaging would it be if the Soviets did that to a city's water supply? And so that, that kind of leads the CIA. That's the justification. So they start dosing the coffee pots and.

• 29:42Joe Rogan?

  And they're running brothels.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 29:44Joe Rogan?

  That's the crazy one. Operation Midnight Climax. Look it up, folks, because it's really crazy. They, they had their own brothels and they would use two-way mirrors with cameras behind them and they would dose the Johns up, they'd give them, would you like a drink? Have a seat. And they go, sure, I'll have a drink. And this poor guy, getting off work, has a drink, thinks he's going to be with a prostitute and have some nice sex. Next thing you know, he's just tripping out of his mind while he's being recorded by Jolly West.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, the guy who actually ran that is a guy named George White. And he was involved in the OSS. So he was, you know, I mentioned Stanley Level and the THC acetate. George White was the guy who was hired to do that in the OSS. Then Sidney Gottlieb, when he's thinking, I need to do these drug experiments for myself. Who am I going to get to do it for me? I need someone who has connections to the underworld, who has criminal connections. George White was a Bureau of Narcotics officer. And so Gottlieb was going through the OSS files and it turns out, oh, this guy's already done these experiments. I'm going to hire him. So that's how George White eventually gets involved in the CIA stuff.

• 30:43Joe Rogan?

  Wow. I can't wait for this show.

• 30:48Joe Rogan?

  Because David Chase gets a hold of a subject like this. There's so much room. Like, it's so endlessly fascinating.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm really excited. Obviously, for me, I mean, it's just so lucky that he happened to be interested in this kind of topic. I mean, there are a lot of books out there on any number of topics that anyone could be interested in, but the fact that, you know, I mean, I do consider myself extremely lucky. I happened to write this book at the right time and someone happened to be interested in it at the right time. So, yeah, I can't wait for that to come out.

• 31:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm very happy that you did write this book and I'm very happy that this is happening. Because I talk to people about this subject, you know, like normies, per se. And they, they look at you sideways, like, what did they do? They do what? They're responsible for Manson. What? Huh? And it's like, oh, my God, the rabbit hole is so deep. I don't have enough battery in my flashlight to take you down this rabbit hole.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  That's one of the things with MKUltra just in general. I mean, initially, reading about this, my first impression is that, obviously, that that's like a, you know, conspiracy theory, or it can't be right. But some conspiracies are true. And the MKUltra stuff, they actually did this. They were dosing people, using prostitutes behind a one-way mirror. George White's sitting on a toilet, watching this happen. They're, you know, I mean... Even besides drugs, MKUltra is involved in a lot of psychological experiments. So not just LSD. Most people associate MKUltra with LSD. But one of the most expansive of the subprojects is Subproject 68. It was by this guy named Ewan Cameron. Have you heard that name before? No. Okay, Ewan Cameron. He is a psychiatrist up in Montreal in Canada, working at what's called the Allen Memorial

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Institute. And Gottlieb wanted to expand MKUltra besides drugs because he already had a lot of people doing drug experiments. So he wanted to see if there were psychological techniques that could be used to manipulate a person. So not just in an interrogation, but can we actually like control a person's personality? Can we make them behave in certain ways, make them do something? So the idea that Ewan Cameron had come up with before the CIA is involved, I should mention, Ewan Cameron is a behaviorist. So he thinks that all behavior is a result of nurture, not nature. So it's the environmental input that causes a person to behave a certain way. And he thought that if you could bring a person back down to a blank slate, remove all the environmental inputs that have been put into them, and then you can build them

• 33:07Speaker 01

  back up in your image into whatever you want them to be. So his idea to bring someone down to the blank slate was to induce enough stress that they forgot who they formerly were. And so you reduce them to the blank slate, and then the CIA is really interested in if you could do that, then you could form them into whatever. So Ewan Cameron, his main goal is to try to figure out what can induce enough stress in a person to bring them down to that blank slate. And so he performs a lot of experiments. His most famous one is called Psychic Driving, where he was doing a "therapy" session, quote unquote "therapy," with one of his patients. And he was recording the session, and she said something about how, you know, "my mother, when I was young, used to tell me, blah, blah, blah." You know, she said something negative to her.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  And so Ewan Cameron rewinded that on the tape that he was recording and made her listen back to it and said, "Hey, I want you to listen back to what you say your mother used to say to you." When he rewinded the tape and played it forward, as soon as the woman was kind of quoting her mother and she listened to that herself on the tape, she recoiled. And Cameron thought, "Oh, you have a negative reaction to that." So he rewinded again and again. And again, and he kept rewinding it, and she just got more and more emotional, had this more and more kind of visceral reaction to what she was saying her mother used to tell her. So this led Cameron to develop the concept of psychic driving, which is you record some kind of negative message, and then you make someone listen to it for thousands and thousands and thousands of times, for weeks on end, for hours every day. All their waking day, they basically are strapped into a headphone that is playing

• 34:34Speaker 01

  this negative message, and it will break them down over time. That's how you induce enough stress to break them down to the blank slate, and then you can record a positive psychic driving message to build them up into whatever image you want them to be. So that was his initial idea.

• 34:49Joe Rogan?

  Was it based on anything?

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Not really. It was just based on he had this one encounter with this woman, and she had a negative reaction. And he's just trying to induce stress. This obviously seemed to induce stress in her, therefore, we're going to start playing these negative tapes to them.

• 35:01Joe Rogan?

  So it was just his idea?

• 35:02Speaker 01

  It's just his idea. He was known for doing this kind of thing, like, kind of spur of the moment. In fact, there was one, there was one kid, basically, who had been at this Allen Memorial Institute where Ewan Cameron was. He eventually had gotten out, but he had tried to commit suicide, and so he was sent back to the Allen Memorial Institute. But the way that he had tried to commit suicide was to close the garage and have the CO2 buildup with a running car, and then he would breathe it in and pass out and die. That ended up not working. However, when he went back to the Allen Memorial Institute, Ewan Cameron thought, you know, his personality seems like a little bit better than it was when he was here before. Maybe CO2 can like, influence someone. So he sent out some of his, some of his assistants to go buy like, CO2 canisters, and we're going to start like, giving this to people.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  But it turns out the assistants knew that this was like, completely unethical. There's no medical basis for anything. And so they lied to him and said, oh, the canisters were way more expensive than we could actually afford, so we can't do that. But, so he was, he was just, he was trying to find any way that he could have a breakthrough to cure mental illness, and he was using his patients as guinea pigs.

• 36:04Joe Rogan?

  Complete guinea pigs.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Complete guinea pigs.

• 36:06Joe Rogan?

  What was the result with the woman? The woman where they played the negative recordings?

• 36:11Speaker 01

  I don't, well, there are dozens and dozens of people who that happened to. I don't know about her in particular, because I don't know if she's actually named in the documents. So I don't, I don't know.

• 36:21Joe Rogan?

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• 37:06Joe Rogan?

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• 37:50Joe Rogan?

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• 38:35Joe Rogan?

  This offer is for new customers only. Do experiments have a positive effect?

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Oh, hardly, hardly, hardly. So that was only-

• 38:42Joe Rogan?

  I shouldn't even say positive. I should say were the effective.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  No, no. For the most part, the people who he did his practice on came out way worse than when they went in. So psychic driving, that's initially what got the CIA interested in Cameron. So it's important to keep in mind, it's not that the CIA told Cameron to do this. He's doing this on his own because he thinks he's going to cure mental illness by having this radical breakthrough where we break them down and build them back up and we can build them back up and make them forget their schizophrenia or depression or whatever they have. The CIA reads his article about psychic driving and they think, this is the kind of thing we're interested in. So from that point on, they start funding him not only to do psychic driving experiments, but also he does, like, puts people in chemical comas for months on end. And while they're in these chemical comas, he would put an audio device next to their

• 39:30Speaker 01

  pillow, playing these psychic driving messages. And he would put them in sensory deprivation chambers for weeks. You know, they would have goggles over their eyes, earmuffs on their ears, they would have cardboard tubes over their arms so that they couldn't feel anything, and they would just be in a room for weeks on end. The idea, again, being to induce enough stress so that it breaks them down, so that you can eventually build them up. But one of the saddest stories in the book, really, is of this woman named Mary Morrow, who was one of the patients of Ewan Cameron in Montreal. The sad thing about her especially is she had been a resident in training at the Allen Memorial Institute under Ewan Cameron. So she had been training to be a doctor under him, and she had administered some of these techniques, including electric shock. So that's one of the things, too.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  We would put these electrodes on the heads of people and just, he would continually shock them until, again, the idea was to reduce them to like, in one case, he says, an infantile-like state where they lose control of their bladder, they can't eat, they can't talk, they can't go to the bathroom on their own, they can't put on their own clothes or anything like that. So she was in charge of administering some of these, I mean, you know, therapy sessions or whatever they would call it, but just basically torture to these people. She ended up having almost kind of a psychotic break herself. She became anorexic and she failed her neurology exams and so she went into a really deep depression. She attempted to commit suicide, that didn't work. She was admitted to the hospital, to another hospital. Ewan Cameron came to visit her and he said, "I think you should come back to the Allen

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Memorial, not as a doctor, but as a patient and let me treat you." So she ends up going back to the Allen Memorial as a patient and she thought to herself that it's gonna be okay, they're not gonna do the electric shock to me because you had to sign a consent form and, you know, for that to happen to you. You know, the people who were signing the consent forms, they don't know how bad it's actually gonna be, they're just signing their name. But she knows, "I haven't signed a consent form, so they can't do that to me." But it turns out, in the time since she went to the hospital and came back, they had stopped doing the consent forms and he would just do this on whoever. And so they ended up doing this electric shock treatment, treatment on her and, you know, afterwards she would be babbling, incontinent, couldn't put on her makeup or clothes or anything. Eventually, she would call her mother after some of these treatments and her mother knew

• 41:42Speaker 01

  something was going on because she just became more and more incoherent as time went on. So the mother sent Mary's sister, Margaret, in order to go to the Allen Memorial to basically bust her out of there. So the sister walked in the front door and said, "I'm not leaving until I see Mary. You know, I'm gonna call the police if you don't let me through." So eventually she goes to her sister's room, opens the door, and Mary is sitting there just with wide bug eyes, you know, doesn't even recognize her sister. It takes several days for her to figure out where she actually is and then she gets busted out of there. So it's a very-

• 42:11Joe Rogan?

  Was it reversible in any way? Was it-

• 42:14Speaker 01

  It's, in her case, I'm not exactly sure. She went on to have a little bit of a career, but she eventually attempted to commit suicide later again. That was unsuccessful. Then her and several of the victims of Ewan Cameron's experiments, in the 1980s, they ended up suing the CIA for supporting Ewan Cameron. And during those lawsuits- The attorneys who are representing them, they took the depositions of several of the people who were involved in MKUltra to try to use this during their trial. So they took the depositions of Sidney Gottlieb, Robert Lashbrook, Richard Helms, the head of the CIA, and many of the victims who were victims of all this. And that's basically the basis for my book. I found thousands of pages of these depositions. That's just verbatim transcript of these people talking about either what they did or what was done

• 42:56Speaker 01

  to them. And so I'm using that throughout the book to explain, here's what they're doing in their own words, or here's what was done to them in their own words.

• 43:04Joe Rogan?

  Wow. So what was the result of the trial?

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Oh, well, so it was actually settled out of court before it went to trial. So the plaintiffs, the CIA gave the plaintiffs $750,000 to be split among them. But, you know, after attorney's fees and everything, it doesn't really amount to much, anyway.

• 43:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  And so, you know, they settled out of court. They got a little bit of money, but it never went to trial. And so these depositions, though, you know, since it never went to trial, these were just in the papers of Joseph Rao, who's the main lawyer who was involved in this case. And when he passed away, his papers were donated to the Library of Congress that had all these thousands of pages of depositions in there, 823 pages of which are Sidney Gottlieb testifying about what he did in MKUltra. And so I was rooting around the Library of Congress and happened to find them. So that's how I found, basically, the basis for what this book is.

• 43:51Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Wow. I wonder how much of that woman's psychological breakdown had to do with the guilt of performing those experiments on people and realizing that it wasn't doing anything that you and Cameron thought it was gonna do. In fact, it was destroying people's minds.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe some. I mean, it's just speculation, because I'm not sure.

• 44:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, of course.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  But that had to have weighed on the consciences. You know, there's, in what was called the sleep room, you and Cameron's sleep room, this is where they would do the chemical comas. The, one of the nurses, I have kind of her diary entries, basically, describing what she was seeing. And she does seem to be pretty reluctant to have done what she was actually doing. And you and Cameron, she said, would often come over to her and pat her on the back and say, you know, "You're helping these people. You're helping these people," just trying to coax her along to go along with what he was telling her to do.

• 44:39Joe Rogan?

  You and Cameron seemed like a complete madman. Like, he was almost like too good to be true. Not too good, but too, like, mad scientist to be true. Was he on any sort of drugs?

• 44:53Speaker 01

  I mean, I've never seen anything to indicate that he was on drugs, but he definitely had a, almost like a Messiah complex. He thought, "I'm gonna be the one to win the Nobel Prize in Medicine because I'm gonna cure all mental illness through this psychic driving," or whatever it was. He was gonna be the next Sigmund Freud. He really had delusions of grandeur, just like I think Jolly West did as well. And so I think that drove a lot of what he was doing. His patients were just a means to his own end. They're the guinea pigs that I can use to prove that these medical techniques actually work, and therefore everyone's gonna praise me because I've cured schizophrenia, or whatever it is.

• 45:27Joe Rogan?

  I'm just always suspicious of something that has that, someone has that kind of access to all sorts of compounds. And then you're experimenting on people, and especially with things like amphetamines, which do tend to make people a little less empathetic, a little more driven. I would be very curious to see if he was interested in anything like that.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't remember specifically for him in that case. I mean, many of the people who are either running the subprojects or approving them, like Sidney Gottlieb, Gottlieb took a lot of LSD. He was, when the CIA got LSD, before it gave it to other people, the first thing they did was try it for themselves to see what actually happened. So Sidney Gottlieb took it multiple times before he ever even gave it to people to understand what it was like.

• 46:11Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  And, you know, one of the physician, who was the attending physician the first time he took LSD, because they did it in kind of a controlled setting with several other people there, a guy named Harold Abramson. And for anyone listening who knows much about the Frank Olson incident, Frank Olson is a guy that would later be dosed with LSD. He would go out the hotel window in New York. And Harold Abramson is the guy who Sidney Gottlieb and Robert Lashbrook, they took to New York to get treatment from Harold Abramson afterwards. So he had this CIA connection.

• 46:44Joe Rogan?

  Wow. The reason why I brought up amphetamines is because I feel like it might be the, one of the unheralded or undiscussed drivers in a lot of psychopathic behavior that we see in our culture today. I think there's, there's a lot of people on prescribed amphetamines that operate in a way that is very, very much like a functional meth head. You know what I mean? And I would wonder, like, if you were in charge of doing something this evil, just running experiments where you're destroying people's minds and you're getting no positive results, none of it's working, yet you continue to do it. And you even do it to people that used to be involved in the program, like that poor woman.

• 47:28Joe Rogan?

  Like, what, what's the psychological profile of that guy? Because he's obviously mentally ill, which is fascinating, right? It's fascinating that a mentally ill person is working on a mind experiment program. Because there's no way he's not mentally ill. Like, to have no empathy to these people that you've tried all this stuff on, and not only has it not been effective and not rid them of mental illness, it's made them far worse.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. For, yeah, for you and Cameron, he, I feel like he definitely lacked empathy, whether that's some kind of medically, medical thing or whatever. There are a couple of people in the book, I think, who are like that. One of them is you and Cameron. Another is George White, who is in charge of Operation Midnight Climax. He was in it just for the fun of it. He would, he would dose his own friends with LSD just to see what would happen. You know, there's, there's one story in the book. There was a woman who had gone over to a dinner party, basically. She had actually gone over with her husband a few weeks before, but George White didn't dose them because the husband was there. The husband went away on a business trip, so the woman and her friend, she, they ended up going to see George White to hang out. And White dosed them with LSD.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  The woman had her one-year-old son there with her, but he still dosed them with LSD. She ends up basically going crazy. I mean, she- You know, she goes home, she ends up calling, you know, George White, asking, "What's happened to me? What's going on?" Um, one of these women, she ended up being committed to a mental institution for basically the rest of her life after this happened to her. Oh, my God. So she had some kind of like psychotic break after this unwitting surreptitious dose of LSD. Of course, she didn't know what was going on, so she thought her whole world was collapsing. Yeah, she, she lost her husband. It was said that she would cower in the corner of her parents', you know, uh, house before she went to this mental institution, convinced that an unidentified "they" was like looking after her, trying to get her, you know, calling on the phone. None of this was happening, but she was just having these

• 49:15Speaker 01

  delusions that someone was out to get her. Oh, God. That's kind of a recurring theme that you see in these people who are unwittingly dosed. One of them, one of the saddest stories in the book is a guy named Wayne Ritchie, and George White did the same thing to him. But, um, Wayne Ritchie was this, he was a guard at Alcatraz for a while. This is in San Francisco. And he had gone to a Christmas party at the post office there in San Francisco, just for, you know, he was a US marshal too, so just the US marshals, whatever. And that night, he was drinking, you know, some of the punch at this party, and he started feeling very strange. He started seeing colors. The room started spinning around him. He ended up going upstairs to where his locker was and, you know, getting his things, and he wound up going home because he didn't, you

• 49:58Speaker 01

  know, know what was going on. When he got home, his girlfriend was upset at him. She said that, you know, "I'm not happy here. I want to move to New York." And so when he's in this fog, he decides, "I know how to set my life on track. I'm going to grab a couple of my service revolver, revolvers. I'm gonna go to a bar downtown. I'm gonna rob it, and I'm gonna give the money to my girlfriend so she can go to New York and she'll be happy, and so she won't break up with me." So when he's in this fog, he ends up doing all this. He gets his revolvers, he goes to a bar downtown. He, you know, basically has a stick up, "Give me all the money in the till." A quick-thinking patron who's sitting next to him basically gets the mug of beer and smashes it over his head, so he falls down. The cops come later, they arrest him, he's in jail. After a day or

• 50:40Speaker 01

  two, he kind of sobers up and kind of awakens from this fog, and he doesn't know what happened to him at, at that point. He ends up losing his job, losing his friends. For the next 30, 40 years, he doesn't know what happened. Until in 1999, he was reading The Washington Post and he saw an article describing MKUltra. And two things in particular stuck out to him. One was George White, whom he knew back in the days when he was a US marshal. And the other one was a description of LSD. And so Wayne Ritchie starts putting all this together and thinking, I think George White gave me LSD that night at the holiday, you know, party and spiked the punch bowl. And that's what happened. And it turns out, you can see in this book, in the photo section, the last photo in the

• 51:23Speaker 01

  photo section of my book, it's a image of George White's diary from the day that Wayne Ritchie went insane. And it says, "Federal Building Christmas Party." So he was there at the Christmas party.

• 51:35Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Imagine being that guy, reading that article 30 years later, realizing, this guy ruined my life for fun.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So he ended up suing the CIA, but the judge said that he couldn't prove that he had been dosed with drugs, so they couldn't rule in his favor. And so that was it.

• 51:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there are, I mean, there are dozens of stories like that.

• 51:58Joe Rogan?

  What a fucking psycho.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:00Joe Rogan?

  What a fucking psycho. Just dosing up the punch bowl, ruining lives.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  And he knows how messed up it is. Because by that point, he had done this to multiple people and called them, and caused them to lose a lot, you know? So he knew what he was doing at that point.

• 52:17Joe Rogan?

  God. That this is just what happens with people when they have that kind of unchecked power and no oversight.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:25Joe Rogan?

  And they're the kind of psychopaths that would be involved in this sort of experimentation in the first place.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. No, so I think he's probably the most heinous of the individuals in this book. All of them are, to a degree. Sidney Gottlieb.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  I think he, I don't think he's as heinous in the sense that he's intentionally trying to harm people. He thinks he's doing this for a patriotic reason. He thinks MKUltra is actually going to help us defend ourselves against the Soviet Union. There is some moral justification, at least he has for himself, so it's not all just, you know, whatever George White is doing. But at the same time, Sidney Gottlieb doesn't really take any responsibility for what happens to these people. Basically, the way that MKUltra was structured with these subprojects, Sidney Gottlieb wasn't running these experiments himself. What he would do is, he would fund other people to do experiments. And most of the time, these people were experts in their own fields. So they were reputable people. Ewan Cameron

• 53:22Speaker 01

  was the head of the American Psychiatric Association, the Canadian Psychiatric Association, and the World Psychiatric Association. He was the most famous psychiatrist in the world, and he was being funded by this. So Sidney Gottlieb thought, well, if I can fund reputable psychiatrists or drug researchers to do these experiments, then it's up to them to provide the safety and the procedures to keep these patients safe. It's not my job. They're the ones who are conducting the experiments. That's how he justified it to himself. But that's how the structure of MKUltra typically worked.

• 53:52Joe Rogan?

  Such a diffusion of responsibility.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. Gottlieb is funding people, and he's not even funding them directly. In most cases, what's happening is he's using cutout organizations. So he's giving the money to-

• 54:02Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  One of them's called the Getchiker Fund, one of them's called the National Institutes of Mental Health, and then the CIA sets up its own cutout organization called the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology, which is just a made-up organization. But the CIA would transfer the funds to the society, who would then transfer it to the researcher. In many cases, the researchers didn't even know they were being funded by the CIA. They just thought, oh, I got a grant from this organization. That's great. So they don't even know that their true patron is Sidney Gottlieb and MKUltra. They just know, oh, they want me to do these experiments. And in many cases, they're allowed to still publish their work. So they're publishing this. Nothing's changed that much from what they were doing before. But it turns out their patron is actually the CIA, who wants to make sure

• 54:47Speaker 01

  they continue doing these experiments, just in case they find something that could be of use.

• 54:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God. What was your journey personally like, both researching these subjects and then writing books about it? Because- What was your opinion on all these things before this? And how much of it shaped your worldview?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  So with the... Probably the first book is more formative to the shaping of my worldview, just because, you know, that was the first one I did.

• 55:20Joe Rogan?

  And what was your perspective before getting involved in any of this material?

• 55:24Speaker 01

  Well, I'm pretty much... I would consider myself a skeptic, generally, you know? So when stuff gets a little too outlandish, I am pretty skeptical. But of course, that... The existence of MKUltra, and even in my first book, The Dirty Tricks Department, there are some projects that are even more outlandish than some of the stuff I've been talking about with MKUltra. And so that kind of lowered my barriers to thinking that, oh, people are crazy. Like, oh, the government does actually perform these crazy, you know, projects. One of the ones that really lowered my barriers to that for the first book was called Operation Fantasia. And again, it's just a testament to the absurdity of some of the ideas that were happening in World War II and with... Just within the intelligence community.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Operation Fantasia was the brainchild of this guy named Ed Salinger. And he had been a businessman who had done imports and exports with Tokyo... in Tokyo. So he knew Japanese culture, he knew the language, he knew the religious beliefs. The OSS wanted to exploit that by trying to find a way we can demoralize the Japanese. You know a lot about the Japanese psyche, the idea was, Ed Salinger. So figure out a way we can demoralize the Japanese and make them basically give up this war. Because, you know, they're dug in, they're not giving up. We need to find a way that we can basically use psychological warfare on them. So his idea is that in the Shinto religion, there are these kind of mystical figures called kitsune. And in many cases, they take the form of like a fox, a glowing fox.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  And oftentimes, they represent portents of doom. So, you know, if you see one of these kitsune, it's an indication that something bad is about to happen. And so Salinger knew, what if we can artificially create kitsune, spread them around Japan, then all these Japanese soldiers are going to see them and think, oh, that's a portent of doom. Surely it means we're going to lose the war. Therefore, we might as well lay down our arms right now. And so Salinger, initially, his idea is we're going to create whistles that can make fox sounds, and we're going to distribute them across Japan to our agents there, and they can blow these whistles like anyone would recognize a fox sound. He had the idea that we're going to create artificial fox odors and spread it around places, and people are going to think that it's the kitsune foxes that are walking around. None of those ever materialized, but then he thought, what if we actually do it?

• 57:37Speaker 01

  What if we capture foxes from China and Australia? We paint them with glowing radioactive paint, and then we drop them in Japan. Surely that's going to scare the Japanese. So there are actually several experiments. Oh, my god. That they did this. So they captured foxes. The United States Radium Corporation produced a paint with radium, radioactive. So loom, from like dials of watches? Exactly. It's the same kind of thing. So they decided, we're going to paint foxes with this. But they first needed to test whether it's possible to paint fur with this and it stay on. So they went to the Central Park Zoo, and they got a raccoon, and they painted it and kept it under lock and key. And it turns out, after a few days of ordinary raccoon shenanigans, the paint stayed on. So they thought, okay, this might have something going for it.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  So then Salinger decided, we're going to paint these foxes, row them out into the middle of the Chesapeake Bay and throw them overboard to see if they can actually swim to shore. Because if we're going to get these foxes to Japan, we're going to have to throw them off the coast, and they're going to have to swim and then scare people. But can foxes even swim? He didn't know. So he gets these foxes, he paints them with this paint, he throws them in the middle of the Chesapeake Bay. Oh, my god. And it turns out, they actually swam to shore. So that worked. However, by the time they had gotten to shore, the paint had all washed off. So they poisoned the water. Well, yeah. And so it's like, well, if we were to do this in Japan, the paints, you see a fox, it's not a kitsune, it has to be a glowing fox. And so he decided, well, that's not going to work. So his next plan, this is one of the craziest things I've found from my

• 59:03Speaker 01

  My first book. The next plan was we are going to stuff a fox, a dead fox, just taxidermy it, have this fox body. We're going to paint it with this glowing paint. We can drape a cloth over it and paint glowing bones on it to make it look like a skeleton. And we're going to put a human skull over this fox head to make it look as if it's a human skull. Because apparently this was like, an even more potent version of the kitsune myth that was going around in Japan. So, we're going to put this human skull on this taxidermied glowing fox. We're going to have the jaw open and close as if it's talking. And we're going to blast propaganda out of this skull. And we're going to attach balloons to it, so that it can fly over Japan. The Japanese are going to look up and see this flying glowing radioactive fox spreading this propaganda. And they're apparently going

• 59:46Speaker 01

  to lay down their arms. I guess that was the plan. And so, that was his ultimate idea of what we can do to defeat the Japanese.

• 59:52Joe Rogan?

  Did they launch that? Did they attempt it?

• 59:54Speaker 01

  That never actually made it. About the time that he was writing all this up and doing these experiments, the Manhattan Project had performed the Trinity Test. And so it was like, well, we already have the weapon that's going to win the war. So, we don't need the glowing foxes, thank you very much.

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• 1:01:34Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so when you, when you research stuff like that, all of a sudden, it's like, well, anything is kind of possible.

• 1:01:41Joe Rogan?

  The problem is, most people haven't researched it. So when you're having conversations with people, like, I've always been conspiratorially minded, but more in the fun side, like Bigfoot, UFOs, dumb stuff, as a distraction. Like, I know what it is. I'm interested because it's silly, you know? And I just find it fun. Like, the Bigfoot thing is, I watched a Bigfoot documentary the other night, against my own better judgment, and now my YouTube algorithm is filled with Bigfoot stories. It's just the dumbest thing ever. But when I started doing the podcast, it slowly shifted my perspective of, not only are there real conspiracies, but they're way more prevalent than you would ever think.

• 1:02:23Joe Rogan?

  And you, you almost have to get lucky to find out about them. You know, like, one of the things from the book Chaos was Tom O'Neill describing some of the documents that were discovered in, God, I believe it was a storage unit, that where they, they had some-

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Oh, like the MKUltra document? Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, do you remember that story?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a big part of my, my book. So in 1975 or so, really in 1974, there was something called the Rockefeller Commission, and that was an executive commission set up to investigate past abuses of the intelligence community. And that kind of led to the Church Committee in 1975, and also the Pike Committee in the House. But after they published their final reports, those reports included things about MKUltra, that the US government had performed these secret drug experiments in the past. And that led a former State Department employee named John Marks to file a Freedom of Information Act request, basically for any and all documents related to these former drug experiments. And so, you know, not too long afterwards, this, a CIA-

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  This guy named Frank Laubinger, he was working in like the CIA archives, but he discovered these six or seven boxes of material that Sidney Gottlieb hadn't destroyed when he retired from the CIA because Gottlieb incinerated most of his files. And so did Richard Helms. They were in on this together. But it turns out those boxes escaped the destruction because they had been sent to the CIA Record Center several years before Gottlieb and Helms retired. Therefore, they weren't incinerated in this purge, and so they survived. So Marx filed that information request. These boxes were found, and then they were released. And this was right around the time that there were a couple of subcommittee hearings on MKUltra, and that's right when all these documents came out, too. So it became kind of a big deal. But so that's how thousands and thousands of documents

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  related to MKUltra survived, even though Gottlieb and Helms incinerated most of the files that they actually had.

• 1:04:22Joe Rogan?

  Which leads you to consider, what would we know if those documents hadn't been discovered? We would be decades behind on this.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, they do reveal a lot of information. That said, we can actually kind of run this scenario because we do know what we kind of knew before those documents were released. So before those documents were released, you still had the Rockefeller Commission and the Church Committee and a few other things. So we would have known still, because it came out before those documents about the Frank Olson incident, this guy was dosed with LSD at this place called Deep Creek, and he ended up going out the window of the Statler Hotel in New York. He died. We would have known about Operation Midnight Climax, even though I don't know if that name was specifically used within these committee publications. So we would have known-

• 1:05:08Joe Rogan?

  Such a great name.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Well, that's George White's doing.

• 1:05:10Joe Rogan?

  Is it?

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Sidney Gottlieb said he had a flair with a pen. Like, he was a journalist before-

• 1:05:14Joe Rogan?

  Fucking psycho.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he was. In fact, while we're on that topic, at the end of Operation Midnight Climax, he wrote a letter to Sidney Gottlieb, basically thanking him for supporting me for all these years. Out of all the MKUltra subprojects- You know, a lot of them started in 1953. Many of them were done by 1963, but several continued into the late 60s. But he, after this was done, he wrote a letter to Sidney Gottlieb. And in the depositions that I found, the attorneys confront Gottlieb about this, and they ask him, what was in that letter? And Gottlieb says, oh, you know, he, he had a flair for writing. You can't trust anything he said. But they, no, what was in it? Turns out what was in it, George White wrote, "I toiled in the vineyards wholeheartedly because it was fun, fun, fun. Where else could a red-blooded American boy lie, cheat, steal, rape, and pillage with the sanction and blessing of the All-Highest?"

• 1:06:03Joe Rogan?

  And he wrote that down?

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:06Joe Rogan?

  God.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we, we would have known about the Frank Olson incident. We would have known about Operation Midnight Climax, though maybe not that name. We would have known the broad outlines of MKUltra, because that was already released before those files. But the files give us a really detailed view of what happened.

• 1:06:23Joe Rogan?

  But we don't know what was in the files that were incinerated.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 1:06:28Joe Rogan?

  And imagine that.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. We, we kind of do know a little bit about what was in them, because there was an investigation that was done afterwards, because it was illegal for them to destroy these files. Not that anything ever happened to them. They didn't face any consequences for it. However, Gottlieb's secretary, this woman who had only been working for him for a few weeks before he retired, he told her to basically incinerate these files, you know, to help him do this. So she didn't know it was against protocol or whatever. She was new to the job. But she was interviewed later as part of a CIA investigation into the destruction of the files. And she does say a little bit about what she thinks were in the files. She says, "It was some of his personal papers, and there was secret and secret-sensitive files in there. We don't have, really have a great idea about what it could be."

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  Although, I do think a lot of the files were, in the depositions that I found, George White, or Sidney Gottlieb says that George White would write to him personal updates about the experiments that he was doing in these, you know, brothels, basically. And so I'm, I'm assuming that a lot of those files consisted of George White's personal reports on what was going on.

• 1:07:35Joe Rogan?

  Now, when you get deeper and deeper into this stuff, how much has it shaped your worldview?

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  A decent amount in the sense that, just as it did for kind of the American public in general in the 1970s, when this was coming out, it really led people to cast a skeptical eye toward the government in thinking,

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  it's just assumed that the government is supposed to be the protector of civil liberties. But after Watergate, after MKUltra, after the Vietnam War, it starts to seem as if the government is infringing on those civil liberties, you know? Instead of being the protector of it, in many cases, it's infringing on them.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Not that it doesn't protect civil liberties, but one of the main things that I came away after writing this book is the problem of oversight. I think the constitutional system of government that we have is ingenious. The fact that we have checks and balances and the separation of powers. However, you have to enable the separate branches of government to be able to check the other branches. For most of the Cold War, that external check on the executive branch, like Congress checking the executive, the president, or the CIA, didn't really exist. So any time that the CIA was doing an operation, I have a chapter about this, but, you know, sometimes CIA personnel would try to inform members of Congress of what they were doing.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  I have one specific quote where a CIA guy walks up to a sitting senator and says, "Hey, let me tell you about what we're doing in Chile," or whatever it is. And then he says, "No, I don't want to hear it. Don't tell me. Just do what you're going to do." He doesn't even want to know. So it's like, how can you expect Congress to give oversight of the executive if they are completely unwilling to even know what the executive is doing? So fortunately, in the aftermath of these revelations, there have been some programs or committees that are set up within Congress to provide that external check. However, it's not even clear how effective those are. For one check on the executive after this is that the president now has to sign off

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  basically on covert operations so that that eliminates the president's plausible deniability. One of the main themes throughout this book is what I call the vicious cycle of secrecy. So, an organization like the CIA that has secrecy, that kind of leads to what I see as this vicious cycle. Secrecy leads to plausible deniability because if it's secret, nobody can know that I'm doing this, therefore, I'm not going to be blamed for it. So secrecy leads to plausible deniability. Plausible deniability leads to reckless behavior, like MKUltra. If nobody's going to find out what I'm doing, therefore, I'm incentivized to do some crazy stuff because I'm not going to be held accountable for it. So secrecy to plausible deniability, plausible deniability to reckless behavior. Reckless behavior in

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  many instances leads to embarrassment. It's almost inevitable for many of these projects that they get found out. Someone leaks something to the press, this is how the family jewels that the CIA had that was like a compilation of all the illegal stuff that it had done over the past couple of decades. It eventually got leaked to Seymour Hersh, who published it on the front page of the New York Times. So reckless behavior leads to embarrassment, but embarrassment leads to secrecy because now that we've been found out, we've got to make sure that never happens again. We need more secrecy and the vicious cycle continues. So, if you can break that vicious cycle by having some kind of external check, that's what you actually need, like an empowered Congress that is willing to check the executive.

• 1:11:00Joe Rogan?

  And then you realize, well, who's running against them? Who wants that job? Not a lot of impressive people. A lot of really driven, successful, intelligent people are involved in other activities that consume their time. They have families, they have careers, they have a lot. They don't have the desire to be a congressperson. So you're not getting the cream of the crop. You're not even getting anything remotely similar to the cream of the crop. You're occasionally getting great people that really want to serve the country. But that is rare. That is, that is like, I wouldn't say rare, but if 20% of the food you ate at a place was poison, would you go eat at that place?

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:11:42Joe Rogan?

  You would not, right? You would say, "I'm assuming there's fucking poison in that place." That's Congress.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47Joe Rogan?

  That's elected officials.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Andrew Yang has made this point before, I know I've heard him say it, that the... The reelection rate of Congress is super high. It's like 80, 90%, whatever it is. The approval rating for Congress is like in the teens. So how is it we have such a divergence between the reelection rate and the approval rating? It has to do with the kind of electoral system. The people who are incentivized to actually run for Congress, in many cases, they're the most ideological on either side because the only race that matters is actually the primary. Because if you're in a district that is 90% Trump voters, the Republican is going to win the general election. It doesn't matter who it is. So the primary is the main election that happens in those districts.

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  And if that's the case, well, the person who can win the primary is going to win the general. And who's going to win the primary? Well, it's going to be the person who can get 90% of Trump voters to be more interested in them than whoever the other Republican is.

• 1:12:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  In many cases, that drives ideological extremism because you're already selecting a sample size of voters within the primary who are the most ideological extreme. And so they're going to elect, basically, whoever it is.

• 1:12:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Because the general election's a foregone conclusion. So if you can realign the electoral system in a way to where, I mean, I don't know the answer to this, but it would be some kind of open primaries, or ranked voting, or proportional representation, ending gerrymandering, something like that, then you better incentivize congresspeople to actually want the job, or incentivize people who would be good at the job to engage in the job, or to become congresspeople because they actually have a clear path to doing it because they're not going to be blocked in the primary. So some kind of reform like that, I think, is how you...

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• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  Better facilitate this check between the different branches?

• 1:15:44Joe Rogan?

  And but even then, I don't know if it motivates the cream of the crop. Because I just, I think most people would rather be on the outside, like most wealthy people that are successful, they'd rather fund a candidate that, you know, suits their needs.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, getting maybe big money out of politics.

• 1:16:01Joe Rogan?

  That would be wonderful. That would be one, I mean, that would be the single probably biggest help. And then also getting out insider trading out of Congress and make it less, like, when you're finding out that people... Are getting a hundred and seventy thousand dollars a year and they're worth hundreds of millions of dollars and there's no investigation whatsoever like what did you do? What did you do and why are you still working? If you're so good at trading, why are you working for a hundred and seventy thousand dollars a year, which is a great salary? Don't get me wrong.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  I'd take it.

• 1:16:31Joe Rogan?

  Nothing wrong with a hundred and seventy thousand dollars a year, but when you have four hundred million.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Joe Rogan?

  Like you couldn't get me to do a job for a hundred and seventy thousand dollars a year. Like I don't have the time.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  You could get me to do it.

• 1:16:42Joe Rogan?

  Right, but you know what I'm saying like you can get congresspeople to still show up and do that job. Is it because they care that much about the American people? Well, that doesn't really jive. It doesn't make sense because they seem completely full of shit when they give their speeches and they it's all canned and fake and insincere and there's no you you you don't have any real connection with their words. So what are they? They're they're these weird people that have accepted this job that no one wants. It's critically important to the function of our government and you're getting really dull people that are taking this job. It's fascinating. One of the things um that also was like so disheartening, I had a rep Luna on the podcast who was great and she's ve- very interesting and she we mostly were talking about UFOs because that's the thing that she's involved in.

• 1:17:27Joe Rogan?

  But one of the things she said about certain issues is they don't want to solve these issues.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:32Joe Rogan?

  This is how they

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  They run, they they can fundraise off of it.

• 1:17:35Joe Rogan?

  Yes, exactly. And I was like, oh, no. Like just that trap, I was like, oh, no, I I didn't want to think that that is the case. And she's like, oh, that's it. That's one hundred percent it.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Joe Rogan?

  They don't want to fix it.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  That I mean, that makes me even more convinced, though, that a restructuring of the electoral system in a way that you know, eliminates um I don't know, that incentivizes basically better behavior, whether that's through open primaries, ranked choice voting, whatever.

• 1:18:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:01Speaker 01

  That has to help in some way, I would think, so.

• 1:18:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, this should also be some sort of a competency test if someone wants to take that position. Like if you want to be a lawyer, you have to look at poor Kim Kardashian, she can't pass the bar. And she's trying so hard, she keeps, oh, I can't pass the bar. It's hard, it's hard to be a lawyer.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  I I am kind of skeptical of a competency competency test in a sense, though, because someone has to write the test, you know?

• 1:18:26Joe Rogan?

  Not not only that, but are you watching them? Do they use chat GPT? And we're living in a weird world right now, you know? It's it's a very weird world of technology and. You know, but it would be nice if you knew that this person was capable of doing the job.

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:41Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I bring it back to the passing the bar thing because, you know, law is very complicated. One of the things that I found out really recently that is super disturbing was that you don't have to be a lawyer to be a judge.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  To be a judge, interesting. Oh, if you.

• 1:18:55Joe Rogan?

  You don't have to know anything. You could just become a judge. You could be a regular person and just now you're a judge.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wonder what kind of judge that is, because I know some judge positions.

• 1:19:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, man, I don't give a fuck if it's a judge at Dairy Queen. Like you should.

• 1:19:12Joe Rogan?

  What are you talking about? You don't, you don't have to be a lawyer to be a judge? That's insane. That's so insane. That's like you don't know how to count to be a mathematician. Like, what are you talking about? You're a judge. You don't have to be a lawyer to be a judge. To me, it was like, oh my god. State and federal courts, most state and federal court, and all federal judges must have a law degree.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  So some state doesn't.

• 1:19:38Joe Rogan?

  Practice requirements, many states require judges to have a certain number of years of experience as a practicing lawyer before they're eligible for a judgeship. Makes sense. When a law degree may not be required. Limited court jurisdiction. Some states allow non-lawyers to become judges in specific lower level courts, such as those that handle small claims, traffic violations, or minor criminal matters. State and local variations. The specific requirements may vary wildly by state, even by the type of court within a state. And training, judges appointed from the non-lawyer pool typically must compete, complete specific training programs. Right, but what is the program?

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  I wonder if that's a relic of, like rural communities where maybe there isn't a lawyer, but you need someone to act in that position, you know?

• 1:20:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  Like.

• 1:20:23Joe Rogan?

  Like you gotta be the sheriff in this town.

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  Instead of being like an M.D. doctor, some people can practice medicine, you know, in rural communities, they do, without being a M.D. doctor. I forget the term of it, but.

• 1:20:35Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Whatever, whatever that term is. So maybe, maybe that's.

• 1:20:39Joe Rogan?

  They don't have a doctor?

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, they don't have a doctor, but you can, you can, you still have a degree, not an M.D., but some kind of medical degree that maybe doesn't require as much time.

• 1:20:48Joe Rogan?

  Or you didn't complete your residency or something.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  Maybe it's a relic of, of that, I don't know.

• 1:20:51Joe Rogan?

  Right, that makes sense. But, but point being that.

• 1:20:56Joe Rogan?

  You know, if Congress has oversight over these things, well, who are we talking about? This is the thing, like, if you are the CIA and you are running some program that you think is crucial to national security, and you have some fucking dingaling from pick a state, Virginia, North Dakota, whatever, some ding dong that just happened to be able to get the right amount of votes because they have the right color on their flag, you know, and then all of a sudden, they're in. And you have to talk to this fucking moron, like, get out of here. Like, I'm not telling you shit. You're gonna hold back information, you're gonna come up with reasons why you have to redact files, and fuck off, you'll be gone in two years.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, this is, this is the inherent tension within any intelligence community, whether it's the CIA or the FBI.

• 1:21:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  There are legitimate reasons to keep things secret. You have to keep secrets.

• 1:21:48Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  But at the same time, the fact that you're afforded that secrecy allows you to avoid accountability.

• 1:21:52Joe Rogan?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  So, it's, it's, it's a catch 22. You have to keep secrets, there's just no way around it. But at the same time, how can I know that the secrets they're keeping is because it's in my interest, or it's because it's in their interest?

• 1:22:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, 100%, and then you find out the really crazy stuff that's happened in the past, like, like, like, the Dmina, Arkansas cocaine situation.

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  I haven't heard of that.

• 1:22:13Joe Rogan?

  You didn't, you know, know about the Barry Seals story?

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 1:22:17Joe Rogan?

  They made a movie about it with Tom Cruise. In fact, in, in, in the movie, Tom Cruise actually gets arrested for smuggling cocaine, and Bill Clinton gets him off. Uh, they call Bill Clinton, he gets arrested in Arkansas, they call Bill Clinton, and they have him dead to rights, and, you know, he's joking around with the cops, saying, "I'd like to buy you guys all Cadillacs," and stuff like that, and they're like, "You're going to jail for the rest of your life." He goes, "No, she's gonna get a phone call, and I'm gonna walk right out of here." And it turned out to be exactly how it happened. Barry Seal was flying drugs from South America and dropping them off in Mina, Arkansas, and then they would go and pick them up in the woods, they had a drop point. Two kids were hanging out in the woods and they witnessed it accidentally.

• 1:23:02Joe Rogan?

  They were murdered. And then the official story was they had done drugs and they laid down, fell asleep on train tracks. Uh, the parents funded an autopsy and the autopsy showed that they'd been stabbed multiple times. So then there's an investigation comes through and then it turns out that there is a long history of this guy Barry Seals, who was CIA operative, who was flying in cocaine, dropping it off in Mina, Arkansas. All known about by the Clintons, everybody was aware of it. And he had been funneling this money and they were using it probably for black ops. It's similar to what they did with the Contras in Sandinista, you know, the Contras versus the Sandinistas in Nicaragua.

• 1:23:47Joe Rogan?

  He winds up, uh, going to testify, uh, gets murdered on his way to the trial with George Bush's phone number in his pocket. The, the whole story is like completely crazy.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  Wow, yeah. When, when did that happen? I hadn't heard of that.

• 1:24:01Joe Rogan?

  So it was when Bill Clinton was the governor. So I believe it was the eighties.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  Okay. He died in eighty-six.

• 1:24:06Joe Rogan?

  Eighty-six, yeah. Fuck, you weren't alive then. That's hilarious. Um, fucking crazy story. But this is the CIA, right? When this is the same thing that they did. Um, I'm friends with Freeway Ricky Ross. Do you know who he is? Okay, great story. So Rick Ross, the rapper, okay, you know who that is? He got his name from a very famous street hustler named Freeway Ricky.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:24:33Joe Rogan?

  Rick Ross. His na- real name is Rick Ross. He's the real Rick Ross. Rick Ross was a guy who is a tennis player, a young tennis player, who, uh, started selling cocaine. It was like super disciplined because he was a tennis player. So was funneling millions of dollars of cocaine. Had no idea he was getting his cocaine from the CIA. So he was getting cocaine, selling it in the hood. They were getting the money and they were using it for this Oliver North thing with the Contras versus the Sandinistas. All of this comes out in court and he winds up going to jail. He winds up going to jail for selling the cocaine, doesn't know how to read. He's illiterate. Learns how to read in jail, becomes a lawyer in jail.

• 1:25:18Joe Rogan?

  Goes over his trial and realizes that they had tried him on the three strikes law, which is supposed to be three different felonies at three different times, but they jammed them all together. And so he gets off. So he's free now and he sells legal marijuana in California. And he's been on the podcast multiple times, but, but this was the CIA that was involved in all of this. This is, this is how like they were making money. They were selling cocaine.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  And one thing crazy just about, not only that, but MKUltra in general, it's against the CIA's charter to operate within the United States. You know, that should be a, a deal ender right there for whatever they're doing within the United States. It's just, it's within, it's against the charter.

• 1:26:00Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  I mean, there's no more discussion, that's illegal.

• 1:26:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, I just think without oversight, there's cowboys. And there's also, when you realize how much money is there to be made and that you could funny this money, funnel this money into oversee accounts that are anonymous, and then you could eventually retire someday and get out of the game and be worth millions of dollars and live in Monaco or whatever the fuck you want to do. Like, and I think that's the dream for a lot of these guys. I think they get involved, they realize it's a completely corrupt system and it's corrupt from the top down and there's ways to make money. And, and there's a bunch of stuff going on where money's being funneled into these NGOs and there's, there's just so much opportunity for corruption and so little oversight and so much power and so much secrecy.

• 1:26:47Joe Rogan?

  And as you were talking about, the importance and the necessity of secrecy for national security, which is a real thing, but also leads to corruption and it leads to people just doing wild things because there's no one watching. And they're in control. They're, they're, look, it's so, it must be so fun. Like, what's his name was talking about, uh, the evil guy?

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  George White?

• 1:27:06Joe Rogan?

  George White. Like, he was talking about, like, like how much fun he had, which is so sick.

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:11Joe Rogan?

  But that's the kind of people that want that kind of a job. And if you make that kind of a job available with no oversight. We need like a council of elders, like a wise council, you know, like of like completely objective, brilliant people that oversee all these things that aren't ideologically captured, you know, they're financially independent, they don't need anything from you.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  I've mentioned external oversight, like Congress checking the executive, but at the same time, one of the big problems with MKUltra, or one of the problems that led to MKUltra, without people, even within the CIA questioning it, there are people in the CIA who know about it, actually not that many because it's very heavily compartmentalized, but some people still do know about it. So one of the questions I was asking myself throughout this book, why aren't the people who were in the CIA and know about MKUltra, why aren't they speaking up? Why don't they say, pull Sidney Gottlieb aside and just have a conversation with him? Do you think what you're doing here is all right?

• 1:28:05Joe Rogan?

  I think they're terrified about their career.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Well, that's exactly the thing. There's a specific person within the CIA during this time, that's his job, the inspector general. So the inspector general within the CIA, his job is to make sure there's nothing that goes against the CIA's charter, or internal regulations, or the US law. But I found an interview that he did later. There's this guy named Lyman Kirkpatrick, he was the inspector general during the 1950s when this was going on, and he did an investigation into MKUltra in 1957 as it was going on, and it continued on after that. And so one of the things he talks about is, why isn't the case that you tried, why didn't you try to shut this down? Like, you obviously knew this was illegal. In fact, in 1963, a different CIA inspector general named John Ehrman, he did a separate

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  investigation into MKUltra, and his report that I quote in this book specifically says, what I think they're doing is, quote, "illegal and unethical." Those are his terms, and he's the inspector general. Yet in this later interview, Lyman Kirkpatrick talks about, why didn't you tell them to stop? Why didn't you put an end to this? Why didn't you raise this to higher-ups? Why didn't you do something? And he said, "I was worried about bringing up anything that could cause me to lose my job."

• 1:29:15Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:29:16Speaker 01

  He knew that if he brought this up, he'd basically be retaliated against, and so that was it. So, you know, there's problems with external oversight, but also internal oversight. The internal oversight- Oversight has to be able to bring that kind of stuff up. And another lack of internal oversight is the fact that Sidney Gottlieb and Richard Helms, they could destroy all these files with no repercussions. It's just completely illegal. It's against the CIA's own internal regulations. In fact, in these depositions that I found, some of the most colorful parts of the depositions happen with the lawyers. The lawyers just get into heated arguments back and forth. That makes the book really colorful. At certain times, there, you know, Joseph Rao is this old civil rights, you know, he used to be the civil rights lawyer.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  He, he took on this case basically to, to fight against the CIA. At, at certain points, he basically says to the other lawyers representing the CIA, "I'm gonna punch you in the nose." And he says, "I'm never giving this up. I'm gonna mortgage my house if it means I have to keep on fighting you." But there's a certain point where he basically lays into Gottlieb, asking him, "Why did you destroy the files? Why did you destroy the files?" Sidney Gottlieb comes up with several excuses. One of those excuses at first is, he says, "The CIA was drowning in paper. We had so much paper, we couldn't move. So there was just an internal, um, kind of drive to get rid of this paper so that we could walk around and figure out where stuff was." But he's just completely making this up. Rao presses him again, "Why did you destroy this stuff?" Sidney Gottlieb, you know, and he does this to Richard Helms, too.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  They both eventually say again, "Well, we wanted, you know, it's, it's part of our job to protect sources and methods. And so we wanted to make sure that nobody would be able to know what our sources and methods were as part of this project, so we had to destroy the files." And Rao was like, "These files are secret. It's not like they're gonna be released to the public. They're the CIA's files. How could, how could destroying them protect sources and methods any more than just not releasing them to the public? That is just a non-excuse." So eventually Rao presses Gottlieb more, and he kind of breaks down during this interrogation. And he says, "I was embarrassed by it. I was embarrassed by what I had done, basically, you know, ruined the lives of all these people, spent $10 million at all these different institutions. For what? For to ruin these lives and we didn't even learn that much out of it?"

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  And so he destroyed the files. And didn't face any repercussions. So in addition to external oversight, there's got to be some internal oversight that can provide a check and prevent that from happening, or if it does happen, at least deter others from doing the same thing by holding them accountable.

• 1:31:42Joe Rogan?

  It's really fascinating that what we're experiencing is essentially 250 years after the founding fathers had already recognized these patterns of human behavior that required oversight. They required checks and balances in order to have a government that doesn't sink into tyranny. You have to have all these things in place to make sure that no one person has the power to do anything that really fucks up the apple cart. And they knew that this was a, and they really painstakingly structured this this system of government that they thought would protect against it. Just they didn't factor into account special interest groups and the stock market and money. And they just didn't factor into, it expanded exponentially into so many different

• 1:32:28Joe Rogan?

  factions and so many different influencing bodies that it's almost completely out of control. But essentially, they knew what could happen that has proven to be accurate, which is really kind of fascinating.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  It is, it is. You know, it's a brilliant system, and I quote James Madison, actually, when I talk about oversight, because his specific verbiage is, you know, auxiliary precautions. You know, humans, he says, men aren't angels, therefore auxiliary precautions are necessary to keep their ambitions in check, which means external oversight, which is like, he's exactly right. That's exactly what you need.

• 1:33:03Joe Rogan?

  He's exactly right. You know, I wonder like where this goes, because it's going in the wrong direction. From the founding fathers to today, it's going in the wrong direction. It's like, I think most people agree that a lack of oversight and secrecy is a gigantic problem with not just... Not just the stuff that we've already discussed with MKUltra and the CIA and the cocaine and all these different things, but with virtually everything that gets decided upon in our government that affects daily lives of people. There's so many different influences that aren't based on the greater good of the American people, it's based on financial interests.

• 1:33:45Joe Rogan?

  And that's sort of overwhelmed all of our policies, overwhelmed all of our systems of government. And then you have all of these social issues that they never really want to fix because they campaigned fun against them, which is what we were talking about before. So this is this constant psychological game. There's a game of us versus them. There's a game of certain key points, whether it is abortion, or gun rights, or immigration, or whatever it is. Like, nothing ever gets solved. These are the beach balls that they throw up in the air at the concert, and they keep getting bounced around, and we're just little dumb monkeys. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Believe it or not, the holiday season is here again, and that means you might need to fill some seasonal roles, fast.

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• 1:35:13Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. I will say a counterintuitive point that I think is important to also make, though, is Daniel Shor was a CBS News correspondent, and he's the guy who initially broke the story on CIA assassination attempts on foreign leaders. And he has this quote about how the US has a... You know, there's a pendulum that swings between security and liberty. You know, the more security you have, the less... The more liberty, basically, you have to take away. You can be infinitely secure, but that means that the government would be inside your house and know everything about you and prevent you from doing anything, but nothing bad would happen. At least you wouldn't be able to do anything bad, because there would be a policeman in every bedroom, basically. On the opposite side, you know, if the pendulum swings too far the opposite way, complete liberty, well, you have no security,

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  because anyone could do anything. So there's this constant tension between security and liberty that swings throughout American history. And an important thing to keep in mind is that I don't think you want that pendulum to stop. You actually want a little bit of tension between that. You want...

• 1:37:31Speaker 01

  In other words, you want the press and Congress to be exposing abuses. You know, because... Human nature is not going to change. People are going to try to abuse the system in whatever it is. That's not going to stop. However, if the press and Congress aren't exposing these abuses, you might think that there are no abuses happening, but they're going to be happening. So I think it's actually good, the fact that this pendulum is swinging a little bit, the fact that there is a little bit of tension, and the fact that there are abuses being exposed. I wish the abuses didn't happen, but at the same time, the abuses are going to happen no matter what. Therefore, the exposure of the abuses is a good sign. It's a sign that the system is actually working as intended because the abuses are being exposed.

• 1:38:14Speaker 01

  One of the points I make in this book is dread the day when the press sings nothing but the praises of those in power and Congress says that there are no abuses to investigate. It might seem like that's utopia, but that's the day that you have lost all of your liberties.

• 1:38:27Joe Rogan?

  That's a very good point. That's a very good point, and well said. I think this is what we're seeing now with independent journalism, and that a lot of these issues that get raised are coming from independent journalists first, and then they ultimately have to be recognized when they reach the zeitgeist. They ultimately have to be recognized by the New York Times or by mainstream media publications. But they're not the ones who break a lot of these stories. A lot of these stories are broken by the Glenn Greenwalds and the Matt Taibis and the genuine independent journalists who initially worked for an organization and then found there's some sort of an ideological blockade, or some certain subjects they couldn't breach,

• 1:39:11Joe Rogan?

  or certain things that they were told that they couldn't publish, and they were like, "I'm out." And then they started doing it on their own. And then also, social media. This is the new function that social media has, where you have these accounts that break news stories all the time. And interestingly enough, some of them are very reliable, and those ones wind up becoming the ones that people share, and they get a tremendous amount of followers. And then they are more trustworthy.

• 1:39:39Joe Rogan?

  Oftentimes than corporate media, which is really kind of scary, but also fascinating. Like, there's a need for it, there's a recognition, there's a distribution of information that lets you to see, see all of this corruption and all this chaos and like, what's at the root of it and why isn't this being discussed in the New York Times? And then all of a sudden, someone puts up this 10 Twitter posts of all these different links and shows you this is the history of it and the story of it, and then a month later, it's in the Washington Post. And it's interesting, it's interesting, it's because it's like, it's almost like, these, this need exists, it's not being fulfilled by mainstream media, because mainstream media is captured by corporate interests.

• 1:40:21Joe Rogan?

  So, in order to have this information comes out, the world gives us this new platform, and that's social media. And social media distributes all this stuff, and then you have to sort through what's real, what's foreign governments making up fake stories.

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  That's the other side of it, because the algorithm can push something, but it doesn't necessarily push truth. It might just push engagement. And if that's the case, then how do you know?

• 1:40:44Joe Rogan?

  Community notes.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, something like that.

• 1:40:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the beautiful thing about Twitter. And when Elon solved that issue with community, I don't necessarily say solved, it's not solved, but it certainly made it a lot easier to understand what's going on. Because oftentimes, there's some outrageous video clip, like, oh my god, can you believe the Democrats are doing this? And then it turns out, no, that's actually from a movie, you know, or that's actually AI, or that's actually from 2016, and it's in Poland, or, you know what I mean? There's a lot of that stuff happens, where people get outraged, and someone posts something, and then, I always go to the original account that posts it, and how many times have gone there, and I'm going, oh, you're not a real person? Like, most of the time, I go and look at all the posts that they have, and I'm like,

• 1:41:28Joe Rogan?

  well, this is either a bot, or this is a foreign government running one of these, like, puppet accounts.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. You might like being a historian, because it sounds like, that's very similar to what I do in the historical record, not on social media, but... You know, most, a lot of what I'm doing is following this source, that cites this source, that cites that source. And it's like, where's the origin of this thing? And you can see the, it's a game of telephone. You can see the transformation along the way. One of my favorite examples comes from my first book. I was writing about William Donovan, who was the head of the OSS. And he was this really, you know, larger-than-life individual, a World War I war hero. He had a Medal of Honor and all kinds of stuff. And there was this really great quote in a book. And it was describing Donovan basically as that. He was the kind of guy that would dance on the roof of the hotel and he would, you

• 1:42:17Speaker 01

  know, he would destroy these planes and whatever. And I thought, man, that's such an exciting quote to encapsulate who he is. So I was reading this book and I kind of, okay, I'm going to mark that quote. I'm going to come back and see where does he, what source is this from so I can use that in my book. So I go to the source. It turns out it cites another book. And it's like, okay, I've got to get that book. So I go to the library. I was teaching at Louisiana Tech at the time. Go to Louisiana Tech library, get that book, open it to the page that it says, find the quote, go, okay, here's where it is. Now go to the back of the book, see the note. The note cites another book. It turns out I had that book. I owned that book. So I went back home, go to that book, do the same thing, look for the source of this quote. It turns out it was a book I didn't have and the library didn't have. So I had to put an interlibrary loan, you know, in use.

• 1:43:01Speaker 01

  So I had to basically request that my library, get the book from a different library. That was going to take several weeks. So, okay, now I've got to wait. In the meantime, I go onto Google Books, I start searching this quote for other books. It turns out they basically cite the books that I had already consulted, so it's a dead end there. I have to wait for this other book to come in. And in the meantime, I'm thinking to myself, that quote sounds awfully familiar. What do I know that from? It turns out I had already used that quote in my book, but it was from a different, it was in a different context. It wasn't talking about William Donovan. It was talking about just people in the OSS in general, and the quote was different. It wasn't like the same quote, but it had many of the key words. And you could tell that it was, it was the same thing, but somebody had changed it. So now I'm thinking, did I use like a fake quote, you know, in this book? So I've got to figure out in my manuscript where I got this.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  It turns out I got it from this book called Wander by this guy named Sterling Hayden, the actor, later in that. He was in the OSS and he had used the quote because he was quoting, he was talking about when he was in Europe after, at the end of the war. He told someone he was in the OSS and they said, oh, the OSS guys are the kind of guys who blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, okay, well, he's recalling this from memory. So this must be the origin of the quote. Then what are all these other books quoting? So finally that interlibrary loan comes in and I get it. And it basically says the quote and it, but it's, you know, it's a little bit different and it's referring to Donovan again, and not just OSS guys in general. And it doesn't cite a source. So I thought, okay, what happened is the guy who wrote that book, he had read Sterling Hayden's book.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  He had taken the quote and he liked it, but he wanted to apply it to Donovan. So we switched the subject and he changed the quote a little bit. And everyone after that, dozens of different books have cited that as their original source. And it was about the wrong person and not even the right quote.

• 1:44:43Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  So and that's for one quote in my book. That's the amount of work you have to do.

• 1:44:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, kudos to you for doing that work, right? That's why people like you are so important that you chased that, that whole story down to the end.

• 1:44:55Speaker 01

  If anyone is interested in that though, in my book, I cite the original book, obviously, because that's what, but next to what I said, also see Joseph Persico, blah, blah, blah, the original book. So that's the book that I originally found the quote in. So if they want to go down the rabbit hole, they can follow his book to that book, to that book, to that book.

• 1:45:09Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Well.

• 1:45:11Speaker 01

  It's a lot of rabbit holes going down, even just to find the origins of things.

• 1:45:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, and then apply that to religion. You know, like stories.

• 1:45:20Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, yeah.

• 1:45:21Joe Rogan?

  You know, like.

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  Game of telephone.

• 1:45:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God. You know, what, what was the original story? Yeah, it's, it's a lot of this stuff, the secrecy, MKUltra, the, all the stuff we're talking about, about oversight. It, it all relays to the way the human mind works, like that the human mind in this instance would take a quote and for its own convenience. Apply it to a different person and change it a little bit. Like it's like we're, we're constantly dealing with all of these factors that.

• 1:45:56Joe Rogan?

  Are in motion with human intelligence. With ego, with reputation, embarrassment, the ambition, power, control.

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  And one thing I especially noticed in doing this too is the ability for humans to rationalize anything, to agree with what they already think is true, is almost limitless. I give an example in this book of a psychologist named Leon Festinger. He wrote this book called When Prophecy Fails. And it's a really fascinating story where he was looking in a newspaper and he saw an announcement for the end of the world. There was this cult called the Seekers Cult and they had said basically on December 21st, 1953, I think it was, it's going to be the end of the world, there's going to be a massive flood, join us and so we can get whisked away on the spaceship before the end of the world happens. Festinger sees this and he thinks this is a great psychological experiment because they are making a specific prediction.

• 1:46:52Speaker 01

  On this day, this is going to happen. What happens when it doesn't happen? So he decides to embed himself in this cult. Basically, they knew he was a psychologist, but they said, yeah, sure, come on by. So him and some of his researchers, they just sit with the cult on the day that the world is supposed to end because they want to know, how are they going to deal with the fact that the world doesn't actually end? So obviously, there wasn't even a light rain, there was like no flood. And so the world doesn't end. Some people actually do end up leaving the cult afterwards, but many people stay, especially the people who had sunk many costs into the cult. They had abandoned their families to join this, they had donated lots of money, they had quit their jobs basically to be in this cult because they thought the world was going to end, what do we need money for? And so those people stayed.

• 1:47:35Speaker 01

  And now Festinger coined the term cognitive dissonance. So the idea that you're holding two irreconcilable views in your mind at the same time. So one of their views is, we predicted because we have received revelations from God, basically, that the world was going to end on this day. That's one position they're holding. The other position is, the world didn't end on that day. So this is cognitive dissonance. How do we reconcile the fact that these two things contradict each other, but we have to believe both of them? So Festinger was interested in how they would do this. There were a couple rationalizations originally. One was, well, maybe God meant it in a figurative sense, not a literal sense. Maybe it was a figurative flood that was going to cleanse our minds of, you know, something, not like a literal flood that was going to kill everyone. But then they said, no, no, we actually thought it was going to be a literal flood.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  So he's in the middle of their discussions when they're rationalizing this. And they eventually come upon the conclusion, God was going to destroy the world. We were right to believe that he was going to do that. But because he saw how fervently we believed in him and how fervently we believed that the world was going to be destroyed, he decided to have mercy on us and didn't destroy the world. So the fact that we believed that the world was going to be destroyed is the reason why the world wasn't destroyed. So the evidence against them becomes evidence for them. We know we are right because the world wasn't destroyed because, you know, that proves that God was taking mercy on us.

• 1:48:53Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:48:54Speaker 01

  So this is how they rationalize it. So this is, you know, non-falsifiable, something that there's no way you could prove it wrong. This is an indication of a bad theory, if it's non-falsifiable, it's like not tethered to reality.

• 1:49:05Joe Rogan?

  It's gold medal mental gymnastics.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Exactly. If something's non-falsifiable, you know, for the classic example for me of non-falsifiability is the concept of last Thursday-ism. So it's the idea that God created the universe last Thursday. Now, how could I prove that wrong? You know, I ask my students this, and many of them say, well, I remember like last Wednesday. I remember time before last Thursday. But of course you remember that, but God created you and your memories last Thursday. So of course you would think that there was time before last Thursday because God implanted those memories in you last Thursday. In other words, this is just a non-falsifiable belief. You can't prove it wrong, but that doesn't mean it's right. So the capacity for humans to rationalize things, if you start from a false premise, we can rationalize a world to make sure that we believe in that false premise.

• 1:49:51Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes. We do that with everything. We do that with religion, we do that with ideologies, we do that with everything.

• 1:49:57Speaker 01

  And it's not, it's, you know, people typically associate rationalization with religion or this kind of cult behavior like this group I explained. But actually, I'm a historian of science, and it actually plays an important role in the, in science itself, like the method of science, how science works.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  If you don't mind, if I can briefly describe the philosophy of Thomas Kuhn. He's this famous philosopher of science. He wrote this, the most influential book in the philosophy of science called The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, basically explaining how does science change or progress over time. His concept was that scientists operate within a paradigm, a worldview. So we believe in Newtonian gravity, or we have the worldview of the germ theory of disease, or whatever it is. So this is our paradigm, whatever group of scientists we are. Within that paradigm, we do normal science, he says, puzzle solving. We do experiments to try to prove our paradigm right. So if my paradigm is, if I'm a follower of Ptolemy and I believe in the geocentric

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  universe, I'm going to be observing the way that the planets and the stars are moving across the sky to try to prove Ptolemy right. I'm going to try to prove that his predictions actually come true. So this is just called puzzle solving. What scientists actually do, Thomas Kuhn says, many of them, they just puzzle solve. They just try to prove the paradigm right. In the process of doing that, they uncover occasionally an anomaly. An anomaly is something that seems to contradict the paradigm. Like, okay, Ptolemy makes this prediction about where the planet should be, but it turns out the planet's actually not there. It's a little bit off. That's an anomaly. And Kuhn says, what do scientists do with anomalies? Do they throw out their theory? No. He says, they either ignore it, or they find a way to rationalize it. Well, Ptolemy made that prediction, but it's close enough to where, you know, his theory

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  still works for most of the observations we're making. So scientists usually ignore or rationalize the anomaly. But over time, as they do more and more puzzle solving, normal science, more and more anomalies crop up, to the point where we just can't ignore them anymore. There are just too many anomalies. At a certain point, we realize that our worldview, our paradigm, must be wrong. And Kuhn says, this allows for a crisis within the scientific community. The group of scientists within this paradigm, they enter a crisis period, and it's during that crisis period when someone can put forward an alternative paradigm that accounts for all those anomalies, and then we accept that as our new paradigm. So it accounts for all the things that the previous paradigm could do, in addition to all the anomalies that the previous paradigm couldn't account for.

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  Now we're in a new paradigm, and what do we do? We do puzzle solving. We try to prove our paradigm right, and in the process, we uncover anomalies. Oh, and we rationalize them away. But the reason I raise this point is because... One of the integral parts to the progression of science, says Thomas Kuhn, is the fact that scientists are stubborn. The fact that, contrary to popular belief, we typically think of scientists as people who are really open to changing their minds. They're confronted by evidence, and so, OK, they're willing to accept this evidence. Thomas Kuhn says, if you actually look at the history of science closely, that does happen, but what also happens in a lot of instances is scientists are stubborn and they don't want to change their minds. They're stuck on their paradigm, and so they rationalize away the anomalies. So the same kind of rationalizing that you have within the seeker's cult about their

• 1:53:09Speaker 01

  belief system is very similar to the kind of rationalizing that scientists are doing when they refuse to throw out their paradigm because they've uncovered these anomalies, but surely there's a way we can make those anomalies fit with our paradigm instead, and they don't. So this isn't to say that scientists are members of a cult or anything like that. In fact, there's, you know, there are good reasons to maybe elevate the predictions of scientists over those of these cult members because there are structures in place within the scientific community to prevent some of the more egregious biases that they have. However, really what I consider Kuhn as, it's a commentary on human psychology. Kuhn basically figured out cognitive dissonance before Leon Festinger, you know, but Kuhn didn't have that terminology.

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  Festinger is describing cognitive dissonance in these cult members. Kuhn is describing it in scientists. He just doesn't have that terminology, but that's just what it is. And Kuhn says that's why science progresses. It's necessary for those people to ignore that evidence because it enables them to keep uncovering more anomalies that eventually leads to the revolution. So it's like, it's an ironic thing that our ability to rationalize is what allows us to progress in the future.

• 1:54:14Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Wow. This is the perfect point to take a break because I have to take a leak. So this is awesome. We'll be right back.

• 1:54:20Speaker 01

  OK.

• 1:54:21Joe Rogan?

  Sorry about that. But I'm glad we took a break right after that epic rant. That was so good. I mean, you just nailed it. It's so perfect that there's this bizarre psychological dance when it comes to human beings, even scientists.

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's, you know, the main point to make is that it's not... The main point is just that human psychology is human psychology. Just because you're a scientist or a cult member or whatever, it's not as if you're immune to any of these tendencies. Anyone is subject to them. It's just human psychology. So I tend to think of Thomas Kuhn in terms of psychology instead of philosophy.

• 1:54:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, it's brilliant. And it's just, it also, all of that, all that understanding of human psychology is really what leads us to even begin to wonder what is going on with the human mind? How do you exploit it? What can you do? And then you get people like Sidney Gottlieb, who make a fucking career out of it. They're realizing, like, we're like these very bizarre, complicated, thinking apes. And we have tendencies, and we have these things that we do that protect ourselves, and we have these desires, and we have these motivations, and how do we exploit that? And how do we do that for, air quotes, national security interests?

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and one of the ironic things is, I don't think Sidney Gottlieb is particularly successful in creating like a Manchurian candidate, in controlling someone like a marionette and getting them to commit an assassination or something like that. However, there are ways to manipulate people and to influence them to behave in certain ways. And there, the typical ways that we associate with like cult behavior, there's a guy named Stephen Hassan, and he-

• 1:56:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've had him on.

• 1:56:04Speaker 01

  Oh, have you? Okay, yeah. Yeah, his BIP model, behavior, information, thought, emotion, I think that's a very good model for understanding how actual mind control actually takes place. You know, behavior being like controlling where someone can go, what they can do, what they can eat, when they can sleep. Information being restricting someone from accessing outside sources of information, but if they do, teaching them to distrust that information, even if they do access it.

• 1:56:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, he was actually in a cult.

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, he was in the Moonies.

• 1:56:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Thought control is like reinforcing previous patterns of thought, so saying mantras, reciting prayers, creating an us versus them mentality.

• 1:56:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  And then emotion control is like instilling in someone certain emotions to make them beholden to the cult or to whatever it is. Guilt, fear, shame, anger, loyalty, dependence, that kind of thing. And so- A combination of these four factors is, I think, the real mind control. How people actually manipulate people. How especially cults are able to manipulate their members to do all kinds of really insane things like cut off their genitals, or commit murders, or anything like that. I think it's much more influenced by those four factors than it is some kind of LSD, mind control, Sidney Gottlieb, MKUltra-type thing.

• 1:57:18Joe Rogan?

  Are you aware of the cult that existed in Austin? There's a documentary called Holy Hell.

• 1:57:25Speaker 01

  I don't think so, no. When was that?

• 1:57:28Joe Rogan?

  Really, really interesting. I believe it took place here in the 90s. The cult, it's called the Bodhi Tree, I believe.

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  Okay, no, I haven't heard of that.

• 1:57:39Joe Rogan?

  Originally, they started in West Hollywood. And this is a great story. It was a guy who is a gay porn star and a hypnotist. He was also a yoga instructor. So he starts this cult.

• 1:57:50Speaker 01

  He would have liked this book, I bet.

• 1:57:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I believe his name was Jaime Gomez. And he changed his name a couple of times. One of them was Michelle, and I think the other one was Andreas. And so when the Cult Awareness Network started looking into cults right after Waco.

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  And Jolly West started that, right? The Cult Awareness Network.

• 1:58:10Joe Rogan?

  Yes. So this guy leaves West Hollywood and moves to Austin. And has his followers build him a theater that he can dance for them, in front of them.

• 1:58:21Speaker 01

  That was the point? So that he can, like, show off to...

• 1:58:23Joe Rogan?

  Yes. It's a beautiful theater. I almost bought it.

• 1:58:26Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:58:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. The original comedy mothership was going to be at this cult.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  Is it downtown, or...?

• 1:58:30Joe Rogan?

  No, no. It's West Austin. It's on Bee Caves Road.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:58:34Joe Rogan?

  And it's still there. It's a beautiful theater. And the reason why I was gonna buy... It was for sale, first of all. It was a beautiful theater, and we wanted a place to put a comedy club. And Ron White, my dear friend, had performed there. And he told me how great it was. He's like, "Some cult owned it," or something. So I was like, "All right, cool." And I went to check it out. I'm like, "This is great." And then I get a phone call from my friend Adam. He goes, "Hey, man, have you seen the documentary on this cult?" And I'm like, "Oh, fuck. There's a documentary?" And the documentary is terrible. It's horrible. However, there's one fascinating aspect of it. Okay, so this guy... He had sex with all these people, he made them pay money so that he can have sex with them. Like, they would do therapy and he was having sex with all these guys and they were straight.

• 1:59:19Joe Rogan?

  And it was like they felt terrible about it. And after it was over, like, the, one guy had sent a mass email, like, hey, this guy's been hypnotizing me and fucking me for the past ten years. And everybody's like, I thought it was just me. And then the entire cult falls apart.

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:59:32Joe Rogan?

  But here's the point. This guy had this thing that he would do to them called the knowing. And they would have to qualify for the knowing. They'd have to be ready for it. And only he could decide if they were ready. When they were ready, they would have this ceremony, this huge thing. And then he would put his hands on them. They would like, they would kneel there in acceptance of the knowing. And he would put his hands on them and they would have this profound psychedelic experience. So through the power of suggestion, through the placebo effect, whatever it is. They genuinely had this profound psychedelic experience. This connection to God, this feeling of all oneness. To a person.

• 2:00:14Joe Rogan?

  Everyone who left the cult, who talked about what a terrible guy he was, talked about how he sexually exploited them and abused them and took their money. And they wasted twenty years of their life with this guy. But that day, when they got the knowing, was the most profound day of their lives.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  Really? Even after they're out of the cult?

• 2:00:31Joe Rogan?

  Yes, even after they were out of the cult. People weeping about what he did to them. Still, talked about that experience as being the most profound moment of their life. Which is like, this guy, because he was a hypnotist, and because he was also a megalomaniacal narcissistic. Yeah, oh, beautiful man. Like, gorgeous man, like, six-pack, ripped body. And it got weird at the end because later in his life, he started getting plastic surgery. Because he was getting older, and so his looks were going, so he was fucking. And everybody was like, what are you doing? Like, what are you doing? And he would deny doing anything, but it was like so obvious and he had facelifts and he just went crazy.

• 2:01:13Joe Rogan?

  But the, the point is, it's like, he figured out how to not just manipulate these people like all cult leaders do, but have this one experience that apparently was a real experience for these people for so, in some way.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  Able to incept like some kind of idea into them or, yeah.

• 2:01:33Joe Rogan?

  If they could just get out then, like, I got it, thank you. I'm gonna go get a regular job now.

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  But in order to have that, I'm sure you have to go through the whole experience because it builds up some tension or resentment or something. Human psychology has to have gone through that in order to maybe reach that.

• 2:01:50Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's just spectacular that he was able to understand that you had to hold it back from them for so long. And like, some of them in the, in the film would be, they were complaining that I'm ready for it. He won't give it to me. I want it. I want it so badly. Michelle got it. Now she's enlightened and I'm just sitting here on earth eating carrots. This is bullshit. And, uh, you know, it's, it's really weird. Because one of the things about these cult documentaries is every time you watch one, like for me at least, in the beginning, I'm like, that looks like fun.

• 2:02:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:21Joe Rogan?

  In the beginning, it looks great. They're all having dinners together.

• 2:02:24Speaker 01

  It's a community. Everyone loves community. Everyone needs to feel accepted.

• 2:02:29Joe Rogan?

  They're all like working in the garden together. Like, this looks great. It looks great. And then it always descends into one guy fucks everybody, one guy takes all the money.

• 2:02:43Joe Rogan?

  One guy wants to be known as the living god.

• 2:02:46Speaker 01

  Uh huh, yep.

• 2:02:47Joe Rogan?

  It's just, these patterns are so weird. They're so weird because they're so similar.

• 2:02:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's, it's the same basic human psychology operating under different, different circumstances that leads to, you know, I mean, there's a classic phrase, you know, history repeats itself or history doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme. But it's because humans share a psychology. So of course there are going to be similar actions. Um, that reminds me kind of this, this concept of like incepting something into someone. Or making him feel this. Were you, you know, this is a little bit before my time, but did you experience the satanic panic in the sense that were you keeping up with it when that was happening in the 1980s?

• 2:03:23Joe Rogan?

  I wasn't, you know, I was very busy during that time, but I peripherally remember it. And then later on, we examined it and looked into it. And you know, we've done a few episodes where we went over it, but it was, you know, legitimately kind of crazy.

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, because there's a connection between that and some of the, what I would say are MKUltra kind of conspiracies. There are a lot of true things about MKUltra that are just crazy, but there are also some things that people propose that I don't think actually happened. You know, there are some people who say, for instance, that MKUltra was, it was like getting young women to run around these military compounds where they would be hunted for sport. And it was saying like, you know, there was a vice president who activated a hologram around his body to make this woman think that she had turned into a lizard, to make her think that lizard people actually exist. Like, you know, there, she was saying that the CIA personnel would impregnate her and

• 2:04:23Speaker 01

  abort the fetuses and eat the fetuses and sell some of the body parts in their interstate occult body part business and all this stuff, which I don't think any of that happened. However, there's a connection between, you know, the people who are making these assertions and the satanic panic. A lot of the people who make these assertions say that they recovered their memories through hypnotism. And that is a lot of what was going on during the satanic panic. You had people recovering memories through hypnotism about being involved in this ritualistic satanic abuse. And in fact, there was, there was a group called the International Society for the Study of Dissociation. And a lot of the members were kind of responsible for propagating many of these satanic panic conspiracy theories. The president of that organization, a guy named Bennett Braun.

• 2:05:07Speaker 01

  He was sued by a former patient for falsely convincing her that she had engaged in cannibalism and infanticide and all this stuff that she didn't do. And he lost his medical license and she was awarded $10 million in this lawsuit. But it turns out that many of the people, one in particular, of the kind of prominent MKUltra conspiracy theorists, her husband, who did this hypnotism on her to recover her memories, he said he learned how to recover memories from Bennett Braun himself. And he was a part of this international society for the study of dissociation. So it's like the same techniques that were being used during the Satanic panic to so-called recover these memories. It's the same thing in many of these MKUltra, what I would say are conspiracy theorists,

• 2:05:50Speaker 01

  who are propagating this misinformation about MKUltra because they supposedly recovered these memories about how these jelly beans were used to control their behavior or something. But it's the same kind of techniques that are being used in both instances.

• 2:06:03Joe Rogan?

  Hypnotic regression in particular is very odd because a lot of it is dependent upon the questions that are asked while the person's under. Like that you can lead someone to believe something happened that didn't happen.

• 2:06:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is what Jolly West was, some of the stuff that he was doing.

• 2:06:17Joe Rogan?

  This is what's really, do you know who John Mack is?

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  John Mack?

• 2:06:21Joe Rogan?

  John Mack was, I believe he was a psychiatrist at Harvard. He got really obsessed with alien abduction stories. And he wrote a book called Abduction. And it was all hypnotic regressions of people that had been abducted by aliens, allegedly. And they all had very similar stories. But the real controversy from skeptics has always been like, what were these sessions like?

• 2:06:46Speaker 01

  Like leading questions?

• 2:06:47Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes. Did you lead them to believe? And also, there was a precedent. So do you know the Betty and Barney Hill story? Okay, Betty and Barney Hill were an interracial couple in New Hampshire, I believe, in the 1950s, were the very first UFO abduction story. And they had an experience on a highway, they saw a thing, they lost time, and then they couldn't sleep. They had all these real problems and they both wound up going to a hypnotist. And separately- Had the same story separately, had the same story about being taken aboard a craft and being manipulated. The problem is then that story gets out into the zeitgeist. Right? And then you have hypnotic regression where people tell very similar versions of that

• 2:07:32Joe Rogan?

  story. And it becomes a thing where like even if the the original Betty and Barney Hill story was real, now that becomes a possibility in your mind that could have happened to you. And then you get hypnotized and someone says, do you see any beings in the room with you? Yes, I do. Do they are they short with large heads and large black eyes? They are. Like, what are the questions? Like, how did you lead them into this hypnotic regression of alien abduction?

• 2:08:02Speaker 01

  And I think a very similar thing took place during the European kind of witch craze in the 17th century. These preachers would go around to different communities talking about witches and demons. And so as soon as they left, in the weeks following, there is a huge uptick in witch accusations and supposed demonic possessions. Is it a coincidence that right after there is as soon as it's brought to your consciousness, oh, I think you might be a witch or all these accusations start spouting around? Obviously, it's like a suggested thing that they picked up from attending these religious rallies.

• 2:08:30Joe Rogan?

  Of course. Did you know that when the printing press was first created, some of the first and most popular books were all about how to spot witches?

• 2:08:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, like Heinrich Kramer, the Hammer of Witches.

• 2:08:41Joe Rogan?

  You would think, no, no, no. But now we have a printing press, it's just all about philosophy and, you know, it's gonna be able to print the Bible and mathematics. No, no, no, no, no.

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  If it bleeds, you know, if it bleeds, it leads. It's like people are attracted to sensational stories. It's the same thing about human psychology. They're just the same psychology as us today. And if we're interested in learning these sensational stories, of course, they want to too.

• 2:09:05Joe Rogan?

  It was their version of what I'm obsessed with Bigfoot. The same thing, just nonsense.

• 2:09:10Speaker 01

  A funny anecdote, kind of related to that. I teach a course on Isaac Newton, and he writes this big book, The Principia. It's like the most famous book in the history of science. And it goes off to the publisher and the publisher, you know, he's publishing this book. And right after The Principia is published, the publisher gets arrested for publishing pornography. So it's like there's this image of this publishing house where The Principia, the most important book in the history of science is there. And right next to it is all this smut that he's secretly doing.

• 2:09:38Joe Rogan?

  Wow. God, human psychology is such a trip. We're so weird. We're such weird animals and it makes it so hard because we're so weird to find the truth.

• 2:09:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially when you're talking about like suggested memories or something like that. There are a few studies, I don't remember them like perfectly, but there's one study that I talk about in this book where, this is right after the Challenger explosion. So the space shuttle has exploded and there were two psychologists, I think they're at Emory University, and they decide, we are going to have all of our students, like 200 students, write down exactly where they were when they heard about this because obviously they're all going to remember. This is like the next day. Where were you? What were you doing? Who told you about the explosion? And so they got copies of these questionnaires basically from 100, how and for many students. Four years later, I think it was, they tracked down, I don't know, 40 or 80 of these students and had them do the same questionnaire. When

• 2:10:32Speaker 01

  the Challenger exploded, where were you? Who were you with? What did you learn? Blah, blah, blah, blah. They took the exact same questionnaire and the majority of the students got a majority of the questions wrong. In the sense that they put down something completely different than they did the first time.

• 2:10:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:48Speaker 01

  So it's like, nobody was even manipulating them. That was just their own memory. The majority, got the majority of these important details wrong. There's another intriguing kind of humorous psychological study. I don't know how big the sample size was on this, but it was to determine how powerful our memory is in the sense that if you just suggest that someone did something, is it possible that they actually think they actually did? So the suggestion was, they took a bunch of students to some vending machines and they either had them propose to the vending machine, something that surely you would remember, or they would suggest to them that they had proposed to the vending machine. So some students would actually propose and other students, they would just tell them, oh, imagine yourself proposing to this vending machine. And afterwards, I don't remember

• 2:11:32Speaker 01

  what the percentage was, but it was a decent amount of percentage of the students who were only told to envision proposing actually thought they had proposed. And so, the power of suggestion is very strong.

• 2:11:42Joe Rogan?

  So strong and the memory is so fallible. Like I have a pretty good memory for like hard facts, like like the information that I know is true. But my memory of my own life is basically like weird blurry snapshots that I can recall. And oftentimes what I'm recalling is the memory of my recounting of my memory. It's not really my memory.

• 2:12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is the story that you've told yourself.

• 2:12:14Joe Rogan?

  I watched an episode of news radio the other day. It was a sitcom that I was on in the nineteen nineties. I didn't remember it at all. I didn't remember the plot. I didn't remember the lines that I had. I didn't remember like if if it was fake, if someone created it during AI, I would have no idea whether it was an AI version of news radio. Or whether unless it was an episode that I really remember like, oh, that was a really funny one. I didn't I didn't remember this at all.

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:40Joe Rogan?

  And it was me. I lived it. I was on TV, right? So it was like probably a big moment for me at the time. Gone. It doesn't exist.

• 2:12:48Speaker 01

  I feel like I it's ironic. I'm a historian, but I feel like my memory is not that good either.

• 2:12:52Joe Rogan?

  I don't think anybody's is.

• 2:12:53Speaker 01

  No, it can't be.

• 2:12:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's certain people like you know that woman that was on Taxi? Really pretty redhead lady that sitcom Taxi from the nineteen seventies. God, I forget her name is a famous actress Mary Lou. Tenner, Mary Lou Tenner. Photographic memory.

• 2:13:12Speaker 01

  Henner.

• 2:13:12Joe Rogan?

  Henner, Mary Lou Henner.

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:14Joe Rogan?

  Sorry, sorry, Mary Lou.

• 2:13:17Joe Rogan?

  I used to be in love with her when I was a kid. She has a photographic memory like she can remember that it was a Tuesday in nineteen eighty three. Like this lady is incredible memory, highly superior autobiographical memory, a rare condition in which people can remember nearly every day of their lives with precise detail.

• 2:13:37Speaker 01

  I wonder if that would be good to have or bad to have.

• 2:13:40Joe Rogan?

  She seems very happy.

• 2:13:41Speaker 01

  Okay, cuz.

• 2:13:41Joe Rogan?

  Show a picture of her when she was young. She was so hot.

• 2:13:44Speaker 01

  I can imagine having a negative experience or a bad memory and then dwelling on that and knowing every single detail of that and having to relive that like in photographic detail every time you think of it. I'm sure that couldn't be a pleasant experience, but.

• 2:13:56Joe Rogan?

  That one right above go to the one the right above there, right there, no, right there. Bam, that was her. Woo, smoke show.

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  That was your younger crush.

• 2:14:05Joe Rogan?

  Goodness, yeah, she was so pretty and also photographic memory. So you can't lie to her. What an amazing person. But that's gotta be, I would imagine it's not a, I would, I would take that over not taking that. Like if someone gave me the option, would you rather have an absolute photographic memory or be like not really sure, like, oh, I don't fucking know what happened, you know?

• 2:14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:27Joe Rogan?

  I would take, I would take the photographic memory, I think. The burden, I think, would be worth it. I think I'd handle it.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  Even me for questions, like, you know, if you ask me, how did you come to write this book? Like, you, you asked me, how did you become interested in this topic? When I was thinking about the answer to that question, I mean, what I said is factual in the sense that I was doing a dissertation on scientists in the intelligence community and this, but is that really like how I came to this topic? I might have read some other book that I read the name Sidney Gottlieb and that got me interested and, you know, even, even when I'm talking to you about my own autobiographical experience, to me, it's like, I mean, what I'm saying is true, but is it like literally true in the sense that I know with precision that how I came to this topic because I was doing my dissertation on this? It might have been, you know, I, I kind of remember reading Tim Weiner's book, Legacy of Ashes, and it briefly mentions Sidney Gottlieb in there.

• 2:15:15Speaker 01

  Maybe I read that and it like, oh, who's this guy, you know?

• 2:15:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:15:18Speaker 01

  So there's a classic joke about how there's a guy looking for his keys on the parking lot and there's a, it's night and there's a lamppost right above him and a police officer walks by and the police officer says, sir, what are you doing? And he says, oh, I'm looking for my keys on the ground. They, they must be somewhere around here. And the officer says, oh, well, did you drop him right here? And the guy says, no, I dropped him in the bush over there, but this is where the light is. So this is where I'm looking. So to me, it's like, well, when I remember my own autobiographical experience, am I remembering it how it's convenient to remember it?

• 2:15:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:50Speaker 01

  Remember it or, you know, or what?

• 2:15:53Joe Rogan?

  Oftentimes, oftentimes, I mean, that's the human tendency, right? I, I know for a fact when I really got into conspiracies because I have a, a moment connected to it that was a, a bad experience. So when I was in my early twenties, this guy that was a friend of mine that was in a band had read this book called Best Evidence by David Lifton. David Lifton was an accountant and he, I forget what his assignment was, but it had something to do with the Warren Commission. So he goes over the Warren Commission report and he actually read the whole thing. It's a huge volume. And he reads all this and he finds so many contradictions and so many things that are wrong with it that he starts investigating the Kennedy assassination. And he writes this book called Best Evidence.

• 2:16:37Joe Rogan?

  And the book is basically saying that there's no way the official story is true. And I read this while I was a comedian on the road. So I was in Philadelphia and I was doing stand up and I had a show on Friday night and I spent the whole day in my hotel room reading this book freaking out going, oh my god, they killed him. So then I go onstage, first show, and fucking bomb.

• 2:17:00Joe Rogan?

  And I had done really good the night before.

• 2:17:02Speaker 01

  Did you talk about JFK or did you already have your set routine?

• 2:17:05Joe Rogan?

  No, I had my set, but I was like completely freaked out by the fact they killed the president. And then I apologized to the manager. I said, I'm so sorry, I read this book on JFK and I'm super bummed out. I'll be over it by the second show, I promise you. And then they were like, you better be. And I was like, I promise, I'm good at this, I know what I'm doing. And the second show was great and they're like, don't do that again. I'm like, I won't, I won't do it again. But I genuinely freaked out. So I remember very specifically, because it was a, you know, it was a big moment for me, I was on the road and I ate shit at a comedy club. So like that thing is in my head forever. But that book was, that was my first step. Because I was like, if this is a true story, I mean, if this is, this book is accurate, like someone killed the president and they got away with it.

• 2:17:47Joe Rogan?

  And it wasn't just Lee Harvey Oswald, even if he was involved, it was, and it was, there was a conspiracy to distort the evidence of the assassination in terms of like the difference in discrepancies between the report at Dallas when they first received his body to Bethesda, Maryland. There's a bullet hole wound that they describe in the Dallas where they call it a tracheotomy hole in Bethesda, Maryland. They're manipulating the narrative to incorporate the single gunman theory.

• 2:18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, have you ever had Gerald Posner on?

• 2:18:18Joe Rogan?

  I have not.

• 2:18:18Speaker 01

  Okay, because I know, I haven't gone really down the JFK rabbit hole, so I don't know that much about it, but I know he wrote the book Case Closed.

• 2:18:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that book sucks. You need to get him together with Oliver Stone and he'll take that book apart.

• 2:18:28Speaker 01

  Okay, I bring him up. Just because I follow him on Twitter, X.

• 2:18:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:33Speaker 01

  And he was posting recently about the, I think he posted about the tracheotomy thing.

• 2:18:38Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:18:38Speaker 01

  And so, but I don't really.

• 2:18:41Joe Rogan?

  Just the magic bullet theory alone is complete utter nonsense to anybody who's ever shot anything with a bullet. When bullets hit bone and shatter bone, first of all, there's the fact that there was more bullet fragments in Connolly's wrist than were missing from this magic bullet. This magic bullet was only used as a tool because they had to account for a bullet that hit the underpass. So there was a guy standing under the underpass, he got hit with a ricochet. So they're like, well, definitely that bullet hit here. So we have to attribute all these wounds to one bullet. So it had to go through Kennedy, bounce around, come out of him, hit Connolly, go through him, go through his wrist. And then they magically find this bullet in the gurney.

• 2:19:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:19:25Joe Rogan?

  When they're bringing in the body, like, or when they're bringing in Connolly to get medical assistance. They supposedly magically find this bullet. This bullet has clearly been shot into water. This bullet is either water or pillows. This bullet has no deformations. It's pristine, it's not missing any fragments, so it doesn't account for the fragments in the wrist. It's a total horseshit idea. And then there's the back to the left, when you see this Pruder film where his head explodes. It's all the people that were talking about the shots coming from the grassy knoll. It's the fact that so many of the witnesses died in mysterious circumstances. They died from car accidents, they died from suicide, they died from crime, they died from random acts of violence.

• 2:20:09Joe Rogan?

  Like, they did a calculation of what are the odds that all these witnesses would wind up dying the way they did? And it's like some spectacular number. They fucking killed a bunch of people that were there.

• 2:20:18Speaker 01

  I'm sure you know this, but Vincent Bulyosi wrote like, I think what might be the longest nonfiction, single-volume book ever written on the Kennedy assassination. Uh, remembering history or something like that. Um, it's like fifteen hundred pages.

• 2:20:31Joe Rogan?

  This is Bulyosi that was involved in the Manson.

• 2:20:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, he wrote like a book about the JFK assassination.

• 2:20:37Joe Rogan?

  And if you read Tom O'Neill's book, it calls him a complete charlatan.

• 2:20:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:20:40Joe Rogan?

  Like he was a crazy person.

• 2:20:41Speaker 01

  But, uh, yeah, I mean, if anyone has seen that book in person, it, it really is like fifteen hundred pages of like the densest, tiniest little print, and it was so long that it came with a CD of the notes that were like a thousand additional pages that couldn't fit in the volume, and like a physical CD you had to put in your computer to see the notes.

• 2:20:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, that's so crazy.

• 2:21:01Speaker 01

  But I think, I think that could be like the longest, single-volume, non-fiction book that I've ever seen.

• 2:21:07Joe Rogan?

  I would love to get Gerald Posner in a room with Oliver Stone, because Oliver Stone, even at his advanced age, he's so smart, and he's, his recall is incredible for dates and times and people that were involved. I don't think Lee Harvey Oswald was innocent. I think Lee Harvey Oswald was definitely an intelligence agent. I think Lee Harvey Oswald, the fact that he lived in Russia, that the fact that he came back to America, married a Russian woman. He seems to have like, just very bizarre access to so, I think he was an intelligence agent. I think he probably was involved in the whole thing, but the calmness in which he describes the fact that he's a patsy after he's been arrested for killing the president, like, to me, just that, that guy's involved in some shit. That's not how a normal person reacts when you get accused of killing the president.

• 2:21:53Joe Rogan?

  If you're innocent, you go, "I'm innocent, I didn't have anything to do with this, I don't know why they had me." You'd be freaking the fuck out, and he's like, "I'm just a patsy." Oh, are you really? Like, I think you're probably an intelligence agent. There's probably something creepy about you, but...

• 2:22:08Speaker 01

  Well, if anyone could get them to talk, I'm sure it's you.

• 2:22:11Joe Rogan?

  I think there was a lot of people involved in the Kennedy assassination. I think there was multiple shooters, and I think it was very coordinated, and it was probably, it probably involved our government. It might have involved the mafia, might have involved other governments. Some people think it had something to do with Israel, because Israel, Kennedy did not want to give Israel nuclear weapons. There's like a, there's a ton of stuff that's attached to that assassination, but this idea of case closed, fuck you. There's no case closed in this. This, this is one of the craziest conspiracies of all time, because it seems to be that they killed the president and got away with it. That's what it seems to be. And then the Jolly West connection to Jack Ruby. So Jack Ruby goes in and kills Lee Harvey Oswald.

• 2:22:56Joe Rogan?

  Then in jail, Jolly West visits him and he goes completely fucking insane. Completely insane, loses his mind, thinks he's in hell, there's fire, the Jews are all burning. Like, he's like going nuts. Right after the guy who's in charge of all these LSD studies visits him. How convenient.

• 2:23:13Speaker 01

  One thing, do you, it's been, I don't know, five years or whenever I read Tomonu's book when it came out the first time, so I don't remember that well. But one thing, because I have a chapter on Jolly West. And one thing that stuck out to me especially is one of the main crusades he had in his life was against the death penalty. You know, he writes a lot about how it's completely immoral, this thing he doesn't like. So to me, especially, there's an earlier case called this Jimmy Shaver case about this guy who abused and killed this little girl that Jolly West was involved into. It seems to me the possibility is also open that Jolly West might also have had an incentive to dose these people with LSD if he did, to prevent them from getting the death sentence.

• 2:23:56Speaker 01

  Because if they could, you know, appear insane, maybe they would not get the death penalty instead.

• 2:24:01Joe Rogan?

  Why was he so obsessed about the death sentence?

• 2:24:04Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think he just considered it immoral.

• 2:24:06Joe Rogan?

  And what a fascinating thing that a guy would ruin people's lives, would consider just ending them to be immoral.

• 2:24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:13Joe Rogan?

  Where a lot of those people wind up killing themselves because of his actions.

• 2:24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he ended up killing himself too. Well, I mean, it was an assisted suicide with his son. His son, his son later wrote a book about this, but his son, basically, Jolly West had gotten cancer that had metastasized throughout his entire body. And he was about to die, and he didn't really want to go through the remaining months or whatever he had left in agony. And so he got his son to stockpile a bunch of pills and feed them to him when he basically became unable to move for himself. And so that happened to Jolly West. Then the son did that to Jolly West's wife, his own mother, later when, I don't know exactly if she had a medical issue or something, but he helped her commit assisted suicide. The son wrote a book about it, and then he later committed suicide as well.

• 2:24:56Joe Rogan?

  Oy, boy.

• 2:24:58Joe Rogan?

  Man.

• 2:25:01Joe Rogan?

  It's just so strange how so much, so many bad things can have come from just a few people. Just a few people and these terrible ideas and this complete lack of oversight. It's so much evil, including the Manson family. Like, because we've talked about it, the Tom O'Neill book. Please, folks, if you're listening to this, read that book. This episode is brought to you by Quince. Putting together a good wardrobe isn't actually that hard. You just need the right pieces and that's where Quince comes in. Quince is all about creating quality, versatile clothing with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters

• 2:25:43Joe Rogan?

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• 2:26:28Joe Rogan?

  That's Q U I N C E dot com slash Rogan. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Scams have gotten smarter because criminals use AI to flood you with fake texts, emails, and phone calls that are designed to be more convincing than ever. One wrong click could put your personal information and your identity at risk. So protect yourself with LifeLock. LifeLock helps detect and alert you to threats. And if your identity is stolen, LifeLock will step in to fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Dedicated US-based identity restoration specialists will work with you until your identity. Is restored backed by the million dollar protection package with up to three million

• 2:27:13Joe Rogan?

  in coverage for eligible losses and expenses. Visit lifelock.com and save up to 30% your first year with the promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE or go to lifelock.com slash JRE for 30% off. Terms apply. It's one of the craziest books of all time.

• 2:27:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:34Joe Rogan?

  By a man completely obsessed with the story that literally chased down nothing but that story for 20 years.

• 2:27:39Speaker 01

  And that one of the, one of the parts of the book that I really enjoyed is the writing style is kind of like a gonzo journal, like he's part of the story, you know, you're following on him on the journey to discover this stuff. For me, that was the exciting part of the ride. It's like, oh, it's, it's not just telling you the story. It's like, we're figuring out how a historian or a journalist actually works. He's telling you now I've got this interview and I'm going to go do this and I'm going to go find these documents. I didn't write this book in that style because I just wanted to stick to a description of MKUltra, but there is something tempting about, one of the exciting things about history is doing the history and no one really sees that process. You know how I was describing going down the rabbit hole to find the origin of that quote? There are a million stories like that about how it's so crazy.

• 2:28:21Speaker 01

  For example, there was, there was this guy named Venever Bush. He was President Roosevelt's unofficial, official, really, science advisor during World War II. And some people say Vannevar Bush, but it's actually.

• 2:28:35Joe Rogan?

  Is he connected to the Bushes?

• 2:28:36Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no.

• 2:28:37Joe Rogan?

  No, different Bushes.

• 2:28:38Speaker 01

  But it's Venever Bush. Bush himself says that it rhymes with beaver, his name, so it's Venever. But he was writing his autobiography. He was in charge of like coordinating scientific research during World War II. And when he was writing his autobiography, he did this series of interviews that were like a thousand pages long so that he could kind of talk about his life and he would use chunks of that and as part of his autobiography. Well, I wanted to get that because for my first book, Venever Bush plays an important role because he's the guy who gets Stanley leveled a job in the OSS and Stanley levels my main character. So it's like, oh, Venever Bush is like one of the main guys who is, you know, playing a role in this story. So I go. There are a couple of different archives that have this 1,000-page interview that Verniva Bush did.

• 2:29:23Speaker 01

  And every single page is there in one of the versions, except two pages that talk about Stanley Lovell and the OSS. And I thought, that's the exact thing I need. Like, how is it, out of 1,000 pages, the one thing that's missing is the two pages? And so I finally eventually find out that there is another copy of this interview at a different repository, like at Georgetown University or MIT, I forget which one it was. So I get them to send me a photocopy of every single page, and it turns out that had the two missing pages. So it's like, oh my gosh, now I can actually use that information, because, but they didn't have the two pages out of 1,000 that I actually needed, they were missing? And, you know, so there are like 1,000 stories about these crazy coincidences that happen. One of them, again, from my first book, was about Stanley Lovell.

• 2:30:08Speaker 01

  You know, he's this chemist in the OSS, creating all these ingenious, like, gadgets and whatever. He talks in his memoir about his wartime experience, about being on this biological warfare committee, where they were discussing the possibility of using anthrax and tularemia and tuberculosis and, you know, distributing this to across towns and just discussing what would happen, what would, what would we need to be able to do this, what would have to happen for us to engage in biological warfare? But he talks about this in his memoir. But I had never seen, you know, a copy of that meeting, minutes of that meeting or anything. He said that this, this group, this biological warfare committee, it was part of the National Academy of Sciences. And I thought, okay, well, that's interesting, but, you know, I can't hardly put it in the book if I don't actually have the minutes in the meeting where they're talking about

• 2:30:53Speaker 01

  this, because Stanley Lovell was known to exaggerate, to say the least, some of the stuff that he was up to during the war. But then I thought to myself, I kind of remember, several years earlier, when I was writing my dissertation before this book, I had gone to the National Academy of Sciences, because I was working on, you know, some scientists in government, and I ended up taking just a bunch of pictures of a lot of the materials they had in their archives, and I went back through the material that I already had, and it turns out, I had taken pictures of the minutes of the very meeting Stanley Lovell was talking about in his memoir, it was already in my possession. I didn't have to go there, I already had it. It's just a crazy coincidence that I already had the thing, exact thing I needed. So the process of making history is sometimes even more exciting than the story itself.

• 2:31:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, the process, it seems like it takes a very dedicated person to chase down that process. Like, all the things you're saying about finding those two pages, the quote, like, there's so many versions of you wanting to absolutely be sure, which is so critical, and I'm so glad that you did that and chased down those things, because a lot of lazy people wouldn't have gone that far, right?

• 2:31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:59Joe Rogan?

  Especially if no one's watching.

• 2:32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:01Joe Rogan?

  You know, you have books you could cite, like, oh, it says, here's the quote.

• 2:32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, but for me, that's the enjoyment of it, you know? I enjoy doing it. I like going to the archives. I like finding things. I feel like a detective, you know, I'm in the archive and I'm looking at these documents and, oh, I find, this guy's name is mentioned here, I know, okay. So, to me, it's exciting. It's like a treasure hunt. So, that's the fun part of it, you know?

• 2:32:21Joe Rogan?

  Do you have a hard time communicating with people that aren't familiar with all this stuff? In terms of, like, this subject gets discussed, and someone brings it up, they start asking questions? Do you have a hard time of not looking crazy? Do you know what I mean? Because, like, there's a lot of people that are, like, very intelligent, very educated people that have not just no information about this, or no knowledge of this, but an aversion.

• 2:32:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Because it's naturally a thing that you would assume could not have taken place.

• 2:32:53Joe Rogan?

  But it's not just that. It's like, there's an aversion to even rationally discussing it. Like, I am not the type of person that's gonna sit here and do conspiracies with you. I've had a few conversations like that with people that do not believe in conspiracies. And they always fall apart under scrutiny. That narrative falls apart. Well, you don't think they exist? Which ones don't you think exist?

• 2:33:16Speaker 01

  Well, a conspiracy, I mean, to me, a conspiracy is just a secret plot to do something. There are a lot of secret plots, of course.

• 2:33:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, all throughout history.

• 2:33:24Speaker 01

  Now, I mean, there are conspiracy theories in the sense that there are stuff that people make up and isn't actually true, but to say conspiracies themselves are necessarily false, well, any secret plot is a conspiracy.

• 2:33:35Joe Rogan?

  Not just that, I think we live in a day and age where there's a lot of fake conspiracies that are thrown in.

• 2:33:41Speaker 01

  And to muddy the water. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, in fact, that actually ties in. At the end of this book, I talk about a little bit about kind of the, what's kind of called censorship through noise, the idea that we can put so much noise out there that no one's really going to know what to trust. Right. And so I give an example of the idea that AIDS was created in a government laboratory like Fort Dietrich. And then in the really 1980s, there was a Soviet propaganda mouthpiece newspaper in India called The Patriot. And this would just publish like KGB propaganda. Wow. And In India? In India, yeah. And one of the stories in that newspaper was basically saying AIDS was created in a government laboratory. But it doesn't just say that. In order to get

• 2:34:24Speaker 01

  there, it first said, did you know that the CIA was involved in dosing people with drugs? Which is completely true. Did you know that the military was involved in spraying certain germs over cities to, you know, determine the distribution of the air currents to see if we were attacked by in biological warfare situation, how the air currents would spread these germs? They were just spraying like yeast and stuff over, but you know, it's bacteria. So, did you know that this, did you know that they've performed experiments on these drug addicts and this and that and this? And also, did you know that in Fort Dietrich, they created a biological weapon called AIDS? So it's, you know, it's the, the lie is made more potent because it's sandwiched in between all these truths. Right. And so this newspaper, The Patriot, published this article, basically saying all

• 2:35:07Speaker 01

  these true things, and then one thing at the end that they were actually pushing. But if you knew that all these other things were true, you might assume that that final thing is true as well. In other countries around the world where they had these front newspapers, they would also publish the same kind of story. Did you know that, and then AIDS was created in this government laboratory? And then those newspapers would cite the Indian newspaper, The Patriot, as evidence that other independent newspapers had also come to this conclusion. And if many independent sources are coming to this, surely it means that it's got some credibility to it. Wow. Not knowing that the actual connection, the KGB is just sponsoring all of this. Wow. You know, so it's a, yeah, censorship through noise, the idea that there are certain things we don't want people to know, or maybe we do not want people to know, but not understand or something. And so we're going to flood the zone with all this, you know, crap, basically.

• 2:35:51Speaker 01

  So maybe nobody's gonna know what to believe. Maybe it is the case that the CIA created aides in Fort Dedrick or whatever it is. So that's one tactic that I talk about at the very end.

• 2:36:00Joe Rogan?

  It's also a great way to minimize the impact of all the things that actually are true on that list. Cause you attach it to something that's completely kooky. And if you do that enough times, you can muddy the waters on basically every subject that there is.

• 2:36:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it can go both ways in the sense that fake stories can delegitimize true stories, but true stories legitimize fake stories.

• 2:36:20Joe Rogan?

  Right, both ways. And then you have the social media impact of bots, which is just really unstudied. We don't really know the numbers. We've talked about this before, but there was a former FBI analyst, before the purchase of Twitter, that he was looking at and he thinks it's 80% bots. It's 80% of the discourse, 80% of the traffic is not human or people that are being paid to do it.

• 2:36:43Speaker 01

  It's like some government entity wanting to do this to sow confusion or?

• 2:36:47Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of different factors. There's us, there's them, there's everybody. There's NGOs, there's different PACs, and they all have, like you can go online, there's companies that will fund a social campaign for you. So imagine if you wanted to go online and attack people over a certain issue. Like say if you're trying to get a bill passed and you want to attack people over a very certain issue, you can fund a campaign using bots to promote your position. And it could give the illusion of some sort of, some agreement online or disagreement online. Or maybe you could take a thing that's a very reasonable position and make it seem completely

• 2:37:32Joe Rogan?

  ridiculous and then also seem like there's a bunch of support that it's completely ridiculous. Like a lot of people believe, and they start citing things that aren't true and quotes that aren't true. And you could just completely screw up the idea of what the truth is.

• 2:37:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know the Russian government had, I think it was called like the Internet Research Agency, something like that.

• 2:37:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's it, yeah.

• 2:37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's a book called Active Measures by Thomas Ridd, and he kind of chronicles what they were doing. Basically, young people would be hired to pose as whoever anyone wanted to be posed as, I guess the Russian government, to spread certain amounts of disinformation to certain communities. So they would just create fake profiles, and your whole job at work would be to cycle through these different profiles and comment on people's posts and post your own, and then boost the posts of your fellow disinformation actors in this IRA so that their posts would be seen by more people.

• 2:38:21Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 2:38:22Speaker 01

  There's a whole, there's a whole organization, or a whole, you know, whatever it is.

• 2:38:30Joe Rogan?

  What was the woman's name that came on to talk about that? Renee Duresta. Renee Duresta, that's right. Yeah, she was saying how like she had to study all these memes, and so many of them were really funny. And like, these people that were in charge of, what they wanted to do was make sure the people online in America were arguing about everything. And the more you could get people at each other's throats, the more you could destroy their democracy. This is part of the idea of it. Just to have another element that people have to deal with. And that they were organizing Texas separatist meetings directly across the street from these Muslim meetings. Like, they were doing it on purpose. They were trying to get people to argue with each other, trying to get people to be in conflict with each other.

• 2:39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, I mean, one of the things now with social media, but just in a globalized world, any amount of conflict is kind of available for anyone to see. So, you know, the worst thing in the world that happens today, you're probably gonna learn about it, you're gonna know about it, which that can't be good for your mental health, to constantly be bombarded by this negative stuff. It's not that in the past, all this negative stuff didn't happen, it's just that in the past, you were probably more focused on your community, because it's not like you got constant access to what's going on in Myanmar or at the Second or whatever it is.

• 2:39:46Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:39:47Speaker 01

  So the fact that you're constantly able to see the worst thing happening in the world, that cannot be good, just for your mentality.

• 2:39:54Joe Rogan?

  It's definitely not good, but it's It's also a social experiment because we didn't know what would happen when you get all this bad news from all over the world. It's never happened before. So there's never been a device that you carry in your pocket that gives you the worst news of the day all day long. It's totally new. So anybody growing up today is bombarded, which is why it has to account for some of the anxiety that kids face today. Because you see heightened levels of anxiety, heightened levels of fear about climate, or anything that they tell you that's a thing that you really need to freak out about. It's like, you're being inundated, and you don't have a chance to just enjoy the moment that you're in. Because everything is like this total existential crisis that's going to

• 2:40:35Joe Rogan?

  destroy humanity. If you don't act now, "Oh, God, there's a genocide going on." It's like, no matter what it is, it's like, you're being bombarded by everything. The economy is a crash, no kings, "Ah, ICE is coming, Jesus, gun control, ah."

• 2:40:51Speaker 01

  Do you have a lot of nostalgia for the pre-internet days? Because I don't remember it that well, but no.

• 2:40:55Joe Rogan?

  Nah, fuck those times.

• 2:40:59Joe Rogan?

  That was stupid. I think with the internet with all its flaws is way better. It's way better. It's way better than the government being in control of the narrative. And, you know, now we know, intelligence agencies absolutely in control of what's distributed in mainstream news. Like, the idea that the mainstream news back then was independent and free, and they were the press, like, no. No. The government agencies and intelligence agencies have been involved in propaganda from the jump. And it's way better now. You have more access to information. It's way more complicated. It's way more complicated to live your life. It's way more psychologically complicated to be in the moment, and to be present, and to just enjoy your life. It's harder. It's much harder, because you are

• 2:41:43Joe Rogan?

  constantly being informed, and there's the addiction aspect of it. You know, the addiction to being informed, the addiction to seeing what people are saying, and seeing the, "Oh, what did this guy do? He stole all this money." Like, we were in the green room last night, we were reading the story about this congressperson who stole money, and how they did it, and then they bought a giant diamond ring. So they wear this giant three-carat diamond ring on a hundred thousand dollar a year salary. Like, what are you doing, you fucking crazy person? But it's like, that, that's what you're, that's what you're taking in all day. Instead of your friends, instead of your, your life and just having an experience in your neighborhood.

• 2:42:27Joe Rogan?

  No, you're just, you're constantly looking at all the problems that are happening all over the world, all the time.

• 2:42:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:35Joe Rogan?

  And you don't get a break. Um, but it's better than being ignorant. It's just like, you have to, you have to find a way to weather whatever that psychological storm is and seek shelter. And don't always just stay out there in it and just get bombarded by psychological hail. That's kind of what it is. You gotta have a strong roof and stay inside sometimes.

• 2:42:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. The, uh, this is a weird, uh, transition, but you said psychological hail. It made me think of this, uh, this project during World War II, the OSS did called the bat bomb. Have you, are you familiar with that?

• 2:43:10Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:43:11Speaker 01

  This, it just made me think of these things kind of raining down. But I write about this in the Dirty Tricks Department. But during World War II, there was this concept of how, how can we better target cities or buildings with our incendiary explosives? We can drop bombs, but I mean, those aren't targeted. They're just gonna fall where they fall. And if the wind's going the wrong way, they're, they're not even gonna hit the target that we want them to. So this guy named Little Adams, he was working with the OSS. He had the idea. He had just gone to Carlsbad Caverns. What if we get bats and we attach napalm to them? And then we release these over Japanese cities. The bats are going to roost into the buildings in, in these cities. And then we can have the napalm time delayed so that it'll explode after a certain amount of time

• 2:43:54Speaker 01

  that we release them and it'll set fires to all these buildings. So we have like targeted incendiaries instead of just random bombs falling. So it sounds like kind of a crazy idea, but he happened to be friends with Eleanor Roosevelt because he had flown planes before and he had given her a ride in his plane. And they kind of knew each other. So he, she, he sent this kind of report on the bat bomb to Eleanor Roosevelt. She gave it to her husband, President Roosevelt, who gave it to William Donovan, the head of the OSS. And with a note attached to the thing that he gave to Donovan, it said, this, this man is not a nut. You know, take this seriously. So Donovan, of course, he gives this to the research and development branch, Stanley Lovell, that I write about in my first book. And it becomes this bat bomb project that now Lovell feels obligated to do because the president's saying, "We need to research this."

• 2:44:38Speaker 01

  So they end up going to Carlsbad Caverns and to some caverns here in Texas. And they scoop up a bunch of bats and they do a few tests with them. They actually get a guy named Louis Pfizer, who invented napalm to create tiny little incendiaries that you could strap to bats. This is a little bit of a digression, but Pfizer had been at Harvard. He was a chemist there. And when he was inventing napalm, it was like a jellied gasoline. He would do the tests on the soccer field at Harvard, just like in the middle of the campus. That's where napalm was invented, just like in the middle of Harvard's campus. These bombs would be exploding and people would get mad at him. People would get mad, not because he was detonating these bombs, but because he was hogging the soccer fields and the drill sergeant needed it for practice. And so there was like these disputes back and forth.

• 2:45:23Speaker 01

  So he was hired by the OSS to create these tiny little incendiaries to strap to these bats. So the OSS did a few experiments with this. Before the incendiaries were strapped, they put like fake incendiaries on them. The idea was to cool down these bats. We're going to fly them in a plane over the desert, like out in Utah or somewhere. And we're going to drop these bats and see if they actually kind of disperse. It turns out that they were using Mexican freetailed bats, which I don't think actually hibernate, but they travel south for the winter. And so they cooled down these bats in this like artificial refrigerator, but apparently they had cooled them down too much. So when they dropped them from the plane, they just like fell straight down to the ground and never woke up. And so they just splattered across the desert.

• 2:46:07Speaker 01

  So that was one of the tests. Another of the tests, they wanted to do a live experiment where they had an actual bat and with an actual napalm bomb attached to it to see if it could like fly off or to see if it would actually like carry this weight. But they had it in like somewhat of a controlled environment. They cooled this bat down, put it in artificial hibernation. And then they were taking pictures of it, you know, to see how everything operated. But then the bat started kind of waking up and it flew off before they could grab it. And it actually flew into a control tower and it burst into flame and the whole thing caught on fire and burned down. So it turned out this thing actually worked, but again, it was never deployed against Japan. This is right at the end of World War II and, you know, they're already, the Manhattan Project was kind of successful at that point. So there was no need for the bat bomb.

• 2:46:51Speaker 01

  But if people are interested in that kind of story and how crazy that can get, that's in these books too.

• 2:46:57Joe Rogan?

  Do you know about the proposal for the gay bomb?

• 2:47:00Speaker 01

  That sounds familiar, about like releasing some kind of chemical that makes, that distracts people. They'll be so infatuated with each other, these soldiers, that we can go, yeah.

• 2:47:08Joe Rogan?

  Not just that, but then somehow or another, it would demoralize them and make them easy to conquer.

• 2:47:13Speaker 01

  Huh, interesting.

• 2:47:14Joe Rogan?

  Which didn't make any sense, especially historically, when you consider the Spartans. They were all gay, they were the craziest force ever. Like, that's not gonna stop people.

• 2:47:22Speaker 01

  Well, you know, that's actually one of the big inspirations for MKUltra, not the gay bomb, but the idea that we could use chemicals to defeat an enemy army. So Sidney Gottlieb, before he was really running MKUltra experiments, he had attended a few conferences where some people would talk, this guy named Luther Green, who was part of the army, and Luther Green was in charge of like developing and experimenting with nerve agents, you know, that could incapacitate, these are like some of the most potent agents that have ever been created. A fraction of an ounce applied to your skin can be lethal. So he wanted to find a substance, Green did, that could mimic the effects of a nerve agent, like incapacitate someone without actually killing them. His idea was that if we could get this substance and we can drop it over enemy territory,

• 2:48:06Speaker 01

  it could incapacitate these soldiers, just through chemical warfare, but we wouldn't actually have to kill them. They would be incapacitated for a certain amount of time, and then we could send the Marines in and they could gather up all these people, and we can conquer this territory, we can defeat this enemy army, without actually having to kill anyone or for any of our people to be killed. So Stanley Lovell was really interested in this concept. You know, war without death was what they were talking about. War without death, we should use chemical weapons that just incapacitate people. So one of the things that got, I should say Sidney Gottlieb, interested in investigating LSD was the fact that maybe this could be an incapacitant that we could use to basically eliminate an enemy army for the time being, and then we could go and conquer them without actually having to kill them ourselves.

• 2:48:49Speaker 01

  So it was, he was trying to use it almost as a more ethical form of warfare, where, you know, instead of killing someone, you just incapacitate them.

• 2:48:57Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:49:02Joe Rogan?

  I think we covered it all.

• 2:49:06Joe Rogan?

  Your book's amazing. I'm really excited that you put in the time to write it and I can't wait to see what David Chase does with it. And when it happens, let's do this again.

• 2:49:16Speaker 01

  I'd love to.

• 2:49:16Joe Rogan?

  I feel like we could talk about this stuff for hours and hours and hours.

• 2:49:19Speaker 01

  There's a lot of stuff to go into, too.

• 2:49:20Joe Rogan?

  Is there an audiobook of this?

• 2:49:22Speaker 01

  There is an audiobook, yes.

• 2:49:23Joe Rogan?

  Did you read it?

• 2:49:24Speaker 01

  I didn't read it.

• 2:49:25Joe Rogan?

  Damn it.

• 2:49:25Speaker 01

  They got a professional for that.

• 2:49:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh, man, you would kill it. You have a great voice.

• 2:49:30Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you. But the nice thing is, it's the same narrator who did both my first and second book, so there's some kind of continuity between that.

• 2:49:37Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so you're happy with it?

• 2:49:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it turned out really, he did a really good job.

• 2:49:40Joe Rogan?

  And the other book is The Dirty Tricks Department. Stanley Lovell, The OSS and the Masterminds of World War II: Secret Warfare.

• 2:49:52Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 2:49:53Joe Rogan?

  Thank you. It was awesome. I really appreciate it. It was really fun. Bye, everybody.