1040: Developing for the iPhone Duo

Scott, Wes, and CJ break down developing for the iPhone Duo with the Device Posture and Viewport Segments APIs, plus the React 19.3 release and Pi’s new Radius platform. Also on deck: Tailwind joining Shopify, Shopify going back to native, Homebrew 7, Aeropeek, and Meta’s Muse Agent. Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to Syntax! 01:05 React 19.3 05:30 Pi announces Radius 15:26 iPhone Duo Initial Reactions iPhone Duo for developers 22:35 Developing for the iPhone Duo Viewport Segments API Device Posture API WebKit Standards Positions Jen Simmons’ post 32:16 Syntax Meetup in SF 32:52 Brought to you by Sentry! 33:10 Tailwind Labs is joining Shopify 35:36 Native is the Future of Mobile at Shopify 40:23 Herdr remote agents 46:13 Homebrew 7 Released 50:55 Meta Muse AI Agent 01:00:19 Scott’s Switzerland Trip ZurichJS Conference 01:07:25 Mic FX from Teenage Engineering 01:10:46 Three.js conference Badge More amazing badges 01:13:29 Don’t let anyone take away your big box of cables 01:16:22 Aerospace Tiling Manager AeroPeek 01:24:26 Scott’s new backpack 01:26:52 Claude, change this button to blue Hacker News post 01:31:23 Knap markdown template language Comark plugin Hit us up on Socials! Syntax: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Wes: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Scott: X Instagram Tiktok LinkedIn Threads Randy: X Instagram YouTube Threads

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Scott Tolinski?

  What's up, everybody? It is time for Syntax Live. It is another Monday. I am back from Switzerland. It was a long journey back. I am jet lagged. I'm on caffeine. I got Tylenol in my head and I'm ready to go, everybody. What's up? My name is Scott Talitsky. I'm a developer from Denver. And with me, as always, is Wes Boss and CJ. What's up, guys?

• 0:22Wes Bos?

  Stoked to be here. Scott just told us, he's not going to share it now, but Scott just told us the most insane story, which at some point you'll have to recount it once you've recovered.

• 0:32Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, I mean, I can do it. I can do it in this stream. It doesn't matter. Anytime. I can do it anytime. I can do it later in this stream.

• 0:37Wes Bos?

  Maybe a little later in the stream. It is diabolical.

• 0:41Scott Tolinski?

  We're gonna have to put a big old trigger warning on that story, too. I'll tell you about that later. It's a, it was a crazy situation, but I'm safe here and I'm back. CJ, how's it going, man?

• 0:50Speaker 02

  It's good. It's good. Our first story today is about React, a new release with React. So we can get right into it.

• 0:56Scott Tolinski?

  Just getting right into it. CJ, I'm trying to introduce you. I'm trying to give you a chance to.

• 0:59Wes Bos?

  Hey, how you doing? Right into it.

• 1:00Scott Tolinski?

  I'm not, I didn't get you a chance to say hello.

• 1:02Wes Bos?

  The brain rot zoomies, zoomers that are watching this can't handle it.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're trying. Don't click away because we're talking about React. So React 19.3 was released. It's now available to install from NPM. And there's a couple of quality of life improvements, honestly, that I kind of just think like, why wasn't it this way from the beginning? Or why haven't we had this? But it's good that it's finally here. First up, there's finally view transitions built into React. So there's a view transition component you can pull in. You don't have to install a third-party library. And we've talked about view transitions a lot here on the stream. Essentially, you can have animations between pages and it's built into the browser. So you don't have to handle any sort of like manual animation. You give things IDs and then they'll animate into the right spot. So that's built in.

• 1:49Wes Bos?

  And for components, too. Like, it's, it's just translate anything to anything, right? If you just have two components and you just tween them between each other.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. So this example here is like a video selector. You can see like it's sliding the videos in and out. And the code for it, there's a couple of hooks they expose as well, such as like start transition. And you can add transition type. And from there, you'll, you'll notice there's no code in here that is like a CSS animation. It just has some options. So like, there's from right, from left, to left, to right. That's all you have to specify. And then it automatically knows when that component's being swapped out that it should use that animation. So it's pretty slick. And now it's built in. Another nice one, quality of life stuff, is about the DOM. This one actually is super simple,

• 2:42Speaker 02

  but it used to be that if you're writing, let's say, in Next.js and you have some server-side React code, you would write some code to determine, is this component running in the browser or not? And it's pretty cumbersome.

• 2:56Wes Bos?

  I hated that.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, you sometimes would even have like a separate component for this to like, set the mounting state. Now, the, there is a use API. So you import browser from React DOM. You say use browser, invoke it, and that will tell React that this component should only run in the browser, not during server-side rendering. So, pretty simple, but reduces a lot of the weird boilerplate we were doing in a lot of apps. And then one last thing, which I think a lot of people are gonna like, is you can now have the context API rendered directly inside of server components. So it used to be that anytime you had a React context, you'd basically have to create a wrapper component, like a provider component that had use client at the top,

• 3:42Speaker 02

  and then use that inside of your server component. And so it's this whole roundabout, just basically.

• 3:47Wes Bos?

  Nightmare.

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just a wrapper component. It's like, and you'd have to do this for everything. Now, finally, you can just import that context directly into a server component and React is smart enough to know that, hey, that's gonna be a client-side component because it is the context API. So, yeah, nothing crazy, but these are definitely quality of life improvements that I think everyone's been asking for.

• 4:09Wes Bos?

  Yeah, those paper cuts in React are the thing that everybody gets so frustrated with because you're like, why the hell is it this way? And the answer to those things often is, well, it's that way because we have this incredibly complex, like nested, suspense-driven, you know, where you have to wait for this thing. And there, there's all these gotchas with React suspense, where the reason behind that is because it's, it's complicated. And we also see like that type of stuff pop up as asynchronous components happen in other frameworks as well. So it's not just limited to React, but it's just so frustrating. We're like, I feel like I shouldn't have to care about this. So I like when those types of paper cuts are, are really doubled down and solved.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 4:52Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  And I think everybody has.

• 4:54Scott Tolinski?

  You can do the browser APIs and stuff like that in React instead of pretending that they don't exist. Gives it a thumbs up for me.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially like the use transition. Yeah, so that's all we got. Check it out. You can install it. I don't think there are any breaking changes. Just a lot of fixes. So if you're using React, update to the latest. Pull out some of that old code. You should be good to go.

• 5:15Wes Bos?

  Tell your agent that start using view transitions instead of whatever awful fade it's gonna add to absolutely everything.

• 5:23Scott Tolinski?

  Bro.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're right. Our, our guidance is now just write a prompt to make this update.

• 5:29Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  I'll pass it over to Scott. He's got some news about Pi.

• 5:33Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Pi, Pi is my, my harnessed choice. I don't know what you guys have been rocking, but I've been like straight up on Pi for a little bit now. And I've been, I've been pieing it up unless, of course, I have to use Claude code, which I do so against my will. I would prefer to do Pi everything if I could. But Pi has announced something pretty major for them. It's called Radius. So this is at radius.erin-dill.com. We will link this up in the chat and everything like that. And Radius is a way that, well, one, Pi can be supported financially because it's, you could think of it as like a token reselling, like an open router type of deal, right?

• 6:17Scott Tolinski?

  So you would manage your tokens through Pi. But it does a bit more than just being a token gateway. It's pretty sick and it adds a bunch of stuff. So what does it add? Well, it's a Pi-native gateway. So like I said, a model gateway, right? It does rewrite tools to reduce large tool outputs and avoid unnecessary input tokens. It provides automatic routing to route each session for the best model to the task. So it does model routing. It does web search, image generation, and image description. So via their Power Radius-backed tools. So basically, like, you get access to these types of things directly in Pi, just from using Radius.

• 7:00Scott Tolinski?

  And then you can get dashboards. And one thing I really like about this is the artifacts. So artifacts, if you haven't been using Claude code, does Codex do artifacts as well, guys? I'm not up on it as much.

• 7:13Wes Bos?

  Yeah, yeah, they actually host them on CloudFlare.

• 7:16Scott Tolinski?

  Okay. So an artifact is something like when you ask your agent, maybe, hey, go off and design this, or go show me this, or whatever, and it doesn't want to do it inside of your codebase, it might make a quick document to show you, right? Instead of like, showing you like wireframes or something like that. It might generate real designs, or it might just generate an HTML page explaining something a little bit more in-depth than.

• 7:39Wes Bos?

  One example, one example I've had is like, explain to me how a, like a, a motor works, right? And you have like the pistons going in and out. And it just made like a, it just mocked up very quickly, just like a little animation out of SVGs and JavaScript. Right, it's way easier to do that than try to give you text or some other crap in a chat, right?

• 8:01Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, HTML is truly a marvel. And so artifacts are amazing that they can be generated. But cool things about artifacts often is that they can be shared amongst your team and stuff like that. So they're usually published to a URL that is not just locally. And that way, you can share them with people. You could make them public, possibly, or any of those things. So small static sites that are shareables artifacts are part of this. Record usage, budgets, top-ups, and shareable session analytics. So this is definitely more of like a team-focused stuff. We use open router at Sentry. And you can see everybody's usage and, and, you know, what models people are using, et cetera. So these are like required tools for businesses to have. But you can get Google Workspace access directly inside of Pi as well,

• 8:46Scott Tolinski?

  which is interesting because this is the type of thing I've always done in something like an OpenClaw or Hermes, or people are using like GrokBot, right? Or these other agent platforms. But like, since Pi is so, make it whatever you wanna make it. Oftentimes, I do just open up Pi rather than opening up Hermes to get stuff done because it has access to all of my skills and my system, plus it can code and all this stuff. So having Google Workspace access seems pretty sick.

• 9:16Wes Bos?

  Does, does this? So this is like a hosted service from the folks that build Pi?

• 9:22Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 9:22Wes Bos?

  And you would then buy your tokens from them?

• 9:26Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, you would, it would replace open router in your stack, or it would replace, what does OpenCode have? OpenCode has their, OpenCode Black, or whatever it is called.

• 9:36Wes Bos?

  OpenCode Go.

• 9:37Scott Tolinski?

  OpenCode Go. So it would replace those types of things.

• 9:41Wes Bos?

  Like a Claude subscription competitor, though.

• 9:44Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, this would be more of an open router type of deal. Yeah.

• 9:47Wes Bos?

  Okay.

• 9:47Scott Tolinski?

  And there is BYO key, too, if you wanna bring an API key. I'm setting up my z.ai API key.

• 9:53Wes Bos?

  Okay, that's, I was just gonna ask that. That's what I want. So I've been setting up, I got this Dell XPS. I'm running Omaky on it. And I was like, ah, I gotta set up all my, we've talked about the like hole, I gotta set up all my MCP servers again. And like, there's, there's some solutions. People are working on that, right? But then the other one was like, now I gotta sign into every single, dude, I have like eight different providers, you know? Because I'm trying them all. And now I'm like, I gotta sign into all of them again? And I was like, where's the like, can I just sign in on some service and then sign into that service at one point? And it just consolidates everything for me? Is that, that will do this?

• 10:35Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I, I would say so. I mean, it's like a gateway for agent models and stuff like that. But what I don't think it does is it's not, you can't be able to sign into your OAuth via this for Codex or something, as far as I know.

• 10:50Wes Bos?

  I know there are like routers that you can like host yourself, where you sign into all of your services and they'll like fall over to them. It's pretty big in the like piracy community or like the people who sign up for eight trials and switch them.

• 11:04Scott Tolinski?

  How do you know about the piracy community?

• 11:05Wes Bos?

  Because I did a video on stolen Chinese tokens, Scott. I know a lot about the piracy community, the stolen token community.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  I'll mention one. I haven't used it myself, but Nine Router. You can self-host it. You log into all of your things and then you just point your coding agents at it instead of directly at other services.

• 11:25Scott Tolinski?

  And that will use your OAuth stuff as well?

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can link OpenAI like through the Codex Oath.

• 11:32Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  And Copilot.

• 11:34Wes Bos?

  Signing with all of your providers.

• 11:36Scott Tolinski?

  I would love to do that in this. Yeah, I would love to sign in with all my Oath stuff. The, the big bummer obviously is Claude. I still really like Fable, uh, as far as models go. Like, I still really like using that. So I end up having to SIM link all my settings and stuff across my computers or, or, you know, and like have like a, a sync process across my computers. But the, I have found that the, the stinking login, uh, process of everything is such a major PIA where I, I use it on my Mac, it asks me to log in. I use it on my Mac Mini. It's like, oh, now you gotta log in again. I'm like, ah, cause it's probably just seeing that you're using it from two different API or, uh, API IPs.

• 12:20Scott Tolinski?

  So it's like, you know, doesn't want you to do that. I don't know. I find it to be a tremendous pain in the butt. If somebody can solve that, I will be setting that up. So you said it was, what CJ?

• 12:30Wes Bos?

  Nine router. I think I'm gonna install this. Cause yeah, I, I typically do all my dev on this machine, but then I have like a, actually I have a Synology where I initially installed Claude on the Synology, but then I, I've since switched to not having to install it on every machine and just using Herder and, and telling it to SSH into and then kind of talk back and forth. That's a much better approach.

• 12:54Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. And Herder had a big update too, that we'll be talking about later in the show. This Rewrite Rules is, is pretty sick. Every model, virtual, built-in or custom owns its effective context rewriting pipeline. Rewriting can compact repetitive tool results, strip terminal formatting, add context, or redact known secret patterns. So basically it's, it's stepping in there to do stuff. Whatever you wanted to do.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  You would need Radius for this? And I guess to be, to be clear, like, is it just a hosted service? Or can you also get access to these like rewrite rules in your regular Pi instance? Or do you have to get a subscription or?

• 13:35Scott Tolinski?

  So Pi being as flexible as it is, you can set this kind of stuff up with plugins and with customizing Pi. Pi is so extendable that you could do probably all of this with extensions. I think the key here CJ is that it is a turnkey setup version of this where you don't have to get into installing, uh, plugins and everything. It's like.

• 14:00Wes Bos?

  Yeah, this is not like an open source.

• 14:02Scott Tolinski?

  And we're gonna make your experience better. Yeah.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  That makes sense, cause like Pi has always been up to this point, like an open source tool. Like you, you build it, like you started up yourself, then you hack on it, extend it yourself, but it's missing that kind of polished experience that you would get even like with open code that like comes built in with a, a web browser. Okay. That's making more sense now, cause it's, it's like, it's how they're gonna try to make money, at least building this thing instead of having it just as open source.

• 14:29Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, and Pi rules. You know, I'm a huge fan of it and I run a very minimal Pi setup. I only have a couple of extension installed. It's funny, when I asked this on Twitter, I asked, what extensions are you using for Pi? And I got so many responses and every single time I tried an extension with her, that is like, uh, here's one that has, you know, five different subagents that all have a various task. And then I would ask to do a prompt and that would come back like an hour later. And it's like still sending its whatever agent on it. And I'm, you know, it was always making my experience worth, whether or not it was a better output or not. So I don't run that much stuff. I do run Pi auto research occasionally, so I have that installed. I think I have a, uh, I think that's pretty much, man, what else am I running on this thing? I don't know. I don't think I'm running that much else in my Pi.

• 15:14Scott Tolinski?

  So yeah, pretty minimal setup over here. And it's nice. Yes.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 15:20Scott Tolinski?

  But that's all I got here for Pi. I'll talk a little bit about the Herder stuff after we get into some iPhone Duo.

• 15:26Wes Bos?

  Yes. All right. I wanna talk about iPhone Duo partially of like, what do we think in terms of it as like iPhone users? Um, and more importantly, what do we think about it in terms of being web developers? Um, and, and like, what does it look like for building websites on this foldable phone? So let's start just talking about our thoughts on iPhone Duo in general.

• 15:50Scott Tolinski?

  Love it. I think it's sick.

• 15:51Wes Bos?

  I think it's cool. Like, what do you think? I could tell, explain more.

• 15:55Scott Tolinski?

  Well, so I, I've been dying to, I know CJ's the only one of the three of us that's owned a foldable phone. So, uh, you know, so he has different thoughts there than.

• 16:03Wes Bos?

  No, Apple guys are not interested in anything that, oh, that's so cool.

• 16:08Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Well, I, I don't, yeah, well, okay. So I've been wanting a foldable phone forever because they've been around forever. And I, the one thing that I hate is the dialogue around that where it's everybody's like, why would you need this? Why? And, and I'm just new. I knew deep down, the moment Apple releases a foldable iPhone, uh, everyone's gonna be like, foldable phones were always awesome, even though that's like the classic thing, right? Same thing happened with big phones. Uh, why would you ever want a phone that's bigger than my thumbnail? Well, okay, here it is.

• 16:37Scott Tolinski?

  Uh, I, I, I love the idea of the iPhone Duo. And the thing, I think that Apple nailed, but nailed it, uh, more than anything else by waiting, by doing the classic Apple waiting and doing it better thing is the form factor of this thing is the perfect darn dimensions, the passport shape of it. It's so smart that I cannot believe that they were the ones, like, cause everybody else started releasing their passport shaped one the moment that it was leaked, that Apple's was going to be like that. And we know how that goes. Uh, that shape of it makes so much sense to me and I'm dying, I'm dying to get one. I, I'm not going to because I just gave Apple a ton of money for my Mac Studio.

• 17:19Scott Tolinski?

  I cannot justify it. My wife said no, uh, so I will not be getting one.

• 17:23Wes Bos?

  I kinda like the idea of having something that's a bit smaller and then when you need it, you can crack it open for a much larger experience. It's like CJ, what, what do you, when do you crack yours open?

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Well, so I use the, uh, so this is the Pixel 9 Pro Fold. I used it for about eight months.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Um, and the killer feature for me was I hate browsing websites that were not meant for mobile and like they leave off features and I'm always switching to desktop mode in Firefox. And so like the, the ability to literally just open my phone, I instantly have a desktop experience, then I don't have to like go to my laptop to do the thing I wanted to do. That was like the main thing I used it for. It's also really great for working in terminals. So like, if you do like halfway open, you can have your, your terminal on the top and like typing on the bottom. Cause like using any sort of terminal app on a regular phone is like not enough screen real estate.

• 18:17Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. So there's that. It's also an amazing e-reader. So you pop it open, it's like the size of a Kindle. So yeah, all of that, but I actually stopped using it, um, beginning of this year because it's, it's too heavy, number one. Um, it like, I used it most of the time in regular phone mode, so I ended up just getting a Pixel 10 to replace it. And then the other thing which the iPhone fixes is the aspect ratio. So your, your main screen is the size of a phone, but like a little bit thinner. So you're actually working with less screen real estate than like a regular Pixel 10 or Pixel 9. And then when you open it, um, the aspect ratio, like if you were to play a 16 by nine video, there's these giant black bars on the top and the bottom.

• 18:59Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. And what's the point?

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's like, you can't even experience the full thing when you have the device open. And so what the iPhone Duo got right is it's the same aspect ratio for when it's folded and when it's open. Um, I think it's like a little more or a little less than 16, nine, but that means when you're watching a full screen video with it open, it takes up almost the entire screen. Um, I will say Samsung did release their passport sized foldable, like less than a month ago. So people have been working on it, but.

• 19:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, but Apple, there was a noun, it was revealed that Apple's was going to be like this over like a year and a half ago plus.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 19:38Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. So I mean, it's, it's been in the rumor mill that this is going to, in fact, people even had like printable dimensions of the exact.

• 19:44Wes Bos?

  Yeah, like the case manufacturers leak so early now.

• 19:48Scott Tolinski?

  You could get, you could get a 3D printed one on Bamboo Labs West like over a year ago.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  But what I'll say, like, I'm, I, so I'm not even an iPhone user and I'm excited about this, cause just watching all of the, the little UI UX details for the OS that they seem to really have gotten right, that you don't really get it. Like Android, like the most, I mean, I haven't used it again, since like the beginning of the year, but like the most you get is like the app icons come across the bottom as like a little dock when you open it. But the, if you look at all of the info on the iPhone Duo, like they, they've switched around the UI, there's all these quality of life things for like camera mode and, uh, different things to do with the inside screen and the outside screens. So. I feel like, just like you were saying, Scott, they took everything that's happened,

• 20:39Speaker 02

  learned from their mistakes, and then are releasing like a much more polished version of it. So I do think like regular iPhone users, most of them that I've talked to like hate this thing. But if you're, if you're someone that enjoys screen real estate, if you're like, if you're a dev, I think you're gonna like the, you're gonna like the fold, especially with all the stuff that they've done with it. Yeah.

• 20:57Wes Bos?

  Is, is, so is this for power users? Because so many people, like, like, I don't, I don't know any power computer users that use an iPad, right? You have your phone. And then when you need to do something that is like, not frustratingly slow, you move to your, your desktop. And we've talked for years about like, a, like iPad coding, will iPad coding ever be a thing? And, and it kind of is now that you, we have AI and you need less of like a, like a rig for it. So I'm curious if like, people who are into that type of stuff will go, will reach for something like this. And it will be a little bit more of a productivity machine.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. I think this, I think you're exactly right. Like, I have an iPad, but like, I never use it for coding or anything like that. But I did use my fold for coding. Because again, I could bring up my terminal, I could do like, remote coding from it, or remote prompting. And it's, it's portable. I think, I think that's the other things, like, it fits in your pocket, whereas like an iPad, you have to have a bag with you, like, it's, it's like, you might as well reach for a laptop if you're gonna, if you're gonna do that. But with the iPhone Duo, or with a foldable phone, it's kind of all you need. So yeah, I think power users are gonna be the first to adopt it. And I think everyone else is gonna see how cool it is. And then you'll get like, the average users potentially using it as well.

• 22:16Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yeah, I'm interested. I'm interested. In fact, like, yeah, I was looking in at like, trade in prices and stuff, like, ooh, how much can I, how much can I get a trade in? My, really, yes, no, yes. I'll wait for version two, and then I'll get it.

• 22:32Wes Bos?

  They'll have like, the SE version or whatever. But let's talk about actually coding for this type of thing, right? Because I initially, I saw like, everybody bellyaching, oh, another screen size I have to support. Like, we haven't had responsive design for 15 years. But it's just a little bit different, because you could have the front, and then you open it up, and you have two things. And there are, there has been two, like, major efforts in, like, the standards world to try and support these devices, right? There's, there's been a CSS proposal, or it looks like this is actually going along, which is the vertical viewport, sorry, the viewport segment API, which will allow you to target a viewport

• 23:16Wes Bos?

  that has more than one segment, meaning that like, you have something that is folded, or, or is that kind of split down the middle. So that's, that's the first one. And the other one is like, the device posture API, which is, is this, is this currently folded? Is it, is it partially folded? Is it, is it not? Is it totally flat? Right? Like, in which way are you using this type of thing? And we already have that for landscape and portrait. But like, imagine you could extend your media queries, or your content queries, or container queries, a little further into this thing is like, a burger right now, or it's open, it's, it's half folded. Now.

• 23:56Scott Tolinski?

  Is it a hot dog? Or is it a burger?

• 23:57Wes Bos?

  Yes, hot dog or a burger. Now, these two things, awesome. But there has been zero, zero. I went all morning searching through, I went through all of WebKit, their GitHub, looking for commits. Usually with this type of stuff, you can find commits on the WebKit GitHub of like, oh, it looks like Apple's starting to support this type of thing. Absolutely nothing related to either of these two APIs from Safari. And if you go to, WebKit has a page on, on their website called standards positions, where they, they basically say, we support this, we do not support this, etc. They have not chimed in at all on either of the viewport or the device posture APIs, which is a little bit concerning there.

• 24:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. And they did the same thing with the Vision Pro. When the Vision Pro launched, they like, only half ass supported the WebXR, like XR, WebXR APIs, same thing. It's like, Apple's like, let's release a device, and then maybe we'll even consider thinking about supporting the modern web on that device, which sucks. And it's classic Apple.

• 25:04Wes Bos?

  One thing is Jen Simmons, we've had her on the podcast before. She asked, as a web designer developer, what questions have you, do you have about the iPhone Duo? She asked that, what, five days ago? And everybody asks, like, are you gonna support these APIs? And she has not replied to any of them. I don't know if that's because she was just fishing for questions, and she's working on some, like a blog post or something like that. Hopefully, we will see a, WebKit.org has an excellent blog on their CSS, if you ever want to know, like, what's going on. And hopefully, she's working on like, a post of like, here is how you tackle it. I hope the answer to this is Safari is an app, and

• 25:47Wes Bos?

  that app is going to be on one of the sides, or, or full size, and you, you do not get control over this. I really hope that's not the, not the case.

• 25:57Scott Tolinski?

  That would be a huge bummer to not support the web.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  But I do think, like, out, out the gate, we already support, like, have responsive websites. They, they work on smaller screen sizes and larger screen sizes. So that's the majority of the experiences we need. It's like, just look better when the screen is wider. I don't know how many things would actually want to do something if the, the device is folded halfway, or, you know, like, more, more niche experiences.

• 26:24Wes Bos?

  Like, just think about like, like Twitter, right? If you have Twitter open, you would want to put maybe two columns on each of the panes. You would want to know if the person's device is cracked in the middle, and they're currently have it folded over, rather than having this like, weird text that wraps around. And I guess it is 50/50, and you will probably have hacks of being able to detect it.

• 26:49Scott Tolinski?

  But if there's APIs that are there, why do you want the hacks? You know, I mean, for me, it's like, they, this, the viewport segments API seems like such a obvious thing to implement here. Because again, like, whether or not it's cracked and stuff, yeah, that stuff would be fun to be able to play around with those APIs, do some really creative things. Like, the iPhone is a place for creativity. I mean, when the App Store first launched, and people were, were making apps that you could drink a beer out of. Like, I mean, people were doing stuff with sensors and stuff. But the fact that they limit those APIs on the web has always been a major problem. And like, I want to be able to have an app that it, that makes accordion sounds when I play with the hinge, so that my phone breaks earlier. But I want to be able to do that on the web.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I think to your point, like, I do think, like, even just a two column layout is enough, because the size of the screen doesn't change as you fold it or unfold it. So if you just split the viewport down the middle, you can still have that. Yeah.

• 27:45Wes Bos?

  It's, it's a different experience, though, because like, two column layout, you swipe it, and both columns go up and down. There's, there's many cases where you have, you literally have two screens, and you want one of them to slide, and the other one to not be in there. I think it's, it's a different experience than just like, oh, here's two columns. We think that you maybe have an iPhone, or you have it wide enough, you know? Because otherwise, we would, we would see iPad websites that are just two columns. And, and you can scroll them individually, or like, you typically don't get that, right? And I think that this is a little bit different.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do think that, well, maybe people will start building, like, because, again, like, you can build a website with two columns that scroll independently. Like, we have the technology. But I think, I think it comes down to people realizing that you, that's a better user experience if you have a wider device. Because the same thing could work on an iPad, or could work on desktop. So I don't know. I think, yeah, I hope they add, add these APIs, but I don't think it's the end of the world if they don't, because websites will continue to work. I guess they're kind of forcing you to build a native app if you really want to tap into those features.

• 28:56Scott Tolinski?

  That's the problem. Yeah.

• 28:58Wes Bos?

  Yeah. I, I also think that Apple doesn't necessarily know what the UX for a lot of the stuff is. They have a really great website, that is like, get ready for the iPhone Duo. And they have a bunch of videos on like, how to design, and how to layout thing, you ever go, like, strike a pose with adaptive layouts on iPhone Duo. Right? So they've, they've thought about it. But I don't know if they're like, you, you have to see how people use it. At the end of the day, I think that they are a little hesitant to like, standardize on something, when like, in reality, we haven't seen anybody outside of like, a couple Android CJ's use these things, you know?

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. But it is a big space. I'll also mention, like, the, I was looking at the developer docs for Samsung, and they have entire, like, pages and UI guidance on working with phones that fold. So like, the work has been done. But I think having the iPhone also have a foldable will only accelerate that, because there'll be more people that want to develop for foldables now. So, but.

• 30:03Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah, I agree.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:05Wes Bos?

  Xcode, what, 27.1, is supposed to come out later this month, they're saying. And the, the rumor on Reddit right now is, they usually come out on Monday. So if it comes out today, that means we'll have the foldable simulator. And my, my last piece of hope is like, they're like, psych, we were, we're supporting both of these things, but we didn't want to like, publicly push it to Safari, because then it would kind of give us away that we're releasing a foldable.

• 30:39Scott Tolinski?

  I guess that's possible, you know?

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. True. Honestly, that's it. I, I, I put my money on that. They didn't want to release it to the world, because if Safari hasn't done it publicly, then people would know even more.

• 30:51Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, I'm putting my money on, they don't care about the web. That's what I'm putting my money on.

• 30:55Wes Bos?

  I think, unfortunately, I did ask on Blue Sky, has Apple ever kept CSS features under wrap until after the product announcement? And Nathan says, for Vision Pro, they had the benefit of being announced at WWDC ahead of time, so any WebKit related features could be announced at the same time. I'm not aware, yeah, I'm not aware either of any features that were sort of held back before announcements. Because it's not a lot of time. This thing comes out in, what, like, a month?

• 31:25Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. So I mean, with the Vision Pro stuff, the, the WebXR stuff, I know this because I've used these APIs in it. They, they weren't supported until like, Vision, Vision OS, like, the second or even third version, because for a while, you had to go into Safari and enable them with a flag. So I mean, even on the release of the device, they weren't there. And then after the first couple of days, you had to enable them with a flag. And it was like, I mean, this is the point of the device. You know? Yeah.

• 31:56Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. All right. Well, let's keep it moving then iPhone Duo. Can't wait to see one in person. Maybe I will someday. iPhone Duo Duo 2 Duo 2 Duo.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  We're going to GitHub Universe. I bet a lot of people are gonna have the Duo there. Like the, because it's in October, right? So all the devs, all the devs will be there with their Duos.

• 32:16Scott Tolinski?

  Show me your Duo. Yes. Show me your Duo. Okay, we are going to be in GitHub Universe, folks. You can check us out there. We're gonna be doing a meetup, too. I don't have the, what's the link for that bad boy?

• 32:26Speaker 02

  Syntax.fm/meetup.

• 32:28Scott Tolinski?

  Syntax.fm/meetup. Check it out. We are gonna be there doing a awesome meetup at this really cool venue that we have done the past couple of years. It's a blast. Bear Bottle Brewing Co. Bear Bottle Brewing. It's outdoors. It's awesome. So come, check us out. Check out the meetup link and then sign up. See us there. It's gonna be a ton of fun. All right. Next story. What do we got, guys?

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Talking about Tailwind. Also, I'll mention this, this stream is brought to you by Sentry.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  They are really good air monitoring. We use it on all our apps. If you've got apps running in production, you want to know what's happening, get some insight into that. Use Sentry. Check it out. Sentry.io forward slash syntax. Get two months free on the team plan.

• 33:11Scott Tolinski?

  CJ, can I just say before you talk about Tailwind, Tailwind is absolutely cooked. It's been roasted by StyleX. It is gone. It is dead. No one will ever use it again because StyleX is here.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  And that's really funny that you mentioned that because like that potentially could have thwarted this acquisition. Maybe, maybe, maybe not that much. But yeah, so if you hadn't heard, Tailwind was acquired by Shopify. So the title is Tailwind Labs is joining Shopify. I don't really have any other news other than that. I mean, I think the, for the longest time, Tailwind has been a library that most people are using. Like AI just poops out Tailwind all day. They also had, what was it, Tailwind UI, which is more of a paid product and how, it's basically how they were trying to make money in some way. There was a lot of chatter around just being an open source library when AI was taking off because something like Tailwind UI didn't make as much sense to pay for anymore

• 34:03Speaker 02

  when you could just prompt AI to build out those components for you. So their monetization strategy has always been up in the air. But now, they are officially employees of Shopify, so they don't have to worry about making money in that way. I don't know what this means for Tailwind itself. Like, are we gonna see more features locked behind a paywall? Maybe not. I think we've seen like Shopify.

• 34:27Wes Bos?

  No. Shopify is just like a good steward for open source and like

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:31Wes Bos?

  in a, in a time where an open source project cannot make money, like they, they were, it was a great arrangement that they previously had, which was they make a bunch of money selling their different products. And then you, the, the world gets an open source library for it as well. And then that arrangement doesn't work anymore. So it's cool that Shopify can sort of step in and say like, kinda need this for the web, you know? So we will be stewards of that. They did the same thing with the React Redder and Remix and whatnot.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. So like they, we already know that they can steward an open source project and like not ruin it and give them, give those developers the resources they need to make it happen. So yeah, Tailwind CSS, join Shopify. The reason StyleX was interesting because like we published a podcast about StyleX coming out. And this was right around the time when there was conversations about Tailwind being acquired. And I think news about StyleX was like, well, do we need to acquire Tailwind if something like StyleX exists? I don't know. It happened. We're happy for them. Congrats to Adam and team. So. I have one more Shopify story really quick, because this is from their blog. But they mentioned that native is now the future of mobile at Shopify.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  So Shopify has like a seller native app, just various native apps for interacting with the Shopify ecosystem. And they're actually moving from React Native to Native Swift for iOS and Native Kotlin for Android. And this whole blog post basically talks about why. And they also built some tools to help them. What was this thing called? Yeah, they have a whole section on like preventing slop in the codebase. But they created this tool called Helix where they could basically port the React Native screens gradually to Native. And Helix would let them, would let the agent compare side by side to make sure they almost had like a pixel perfect match for the,

• 36:29Speaker 02

  for the migration. So yeah, another story about how rewriting from scratch isn't the end of the world anymore. And with the, the use of agents, you can do something like this. And I mean, it used to be that like something like React Native, you write the code once, it runs on both devices. If you're not doing any sort of like directly native features, it's great. But the moment you have to do native, now you also have to support the native modules for both phones. And so they're migrating. So fascinating to see. I don't know if you all have experience with React Native or if you, if you do the same, like in a couple of.

• 37:09Wes Bos?

  Conversation comes up all the time.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:12Wes Bos?

  Wait, this is probably 10 years ago where Airbnb moved from React Native to Native. And everybody said, C, C, C. And then like every single conference talk would use that as a quote and et cetera, et cetera. But I don't know. It's a, it's one person's experience. It doesn't invalidate all of React Native. And then it doesn't, it, it may have just been a skill issue. It may have been their own setup. But it, it may have been also very valid.

• 37:43Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I think everyone is valid. Yes, Wes.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  Everyone, they all, yeah, they all have their own reasons for doing this or, and you know, I trust they're, they have an engineering team that isn't just like, like prompting everything and using the advice of the prompting. So they, they made a technical decision to do this and I'm sure they have all their reasons to do it. So.

• 38:03Wes Bos?

  The, one of the best apps that I use, or maybe not necessarily best, but one of the fastest apps that I use is the Tesla app to like unlock your car. You open the app and you need to press the button to pop the trunk. And that needs to be as fast as possible because I'm not sitting there waiting for the app to load before I press the button. It needs to work as soon as possible. And that's a React Native application, right? There's just plenty of excellent React Native applications out there. So it, it can be done very well.

• 38:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. I, I will say I was, well, I am working on my podcast app, which is an expo React Native app. And it hasn't been the most fun. I kinda wish in the day of agents that I wish I would have just done, hey, use Swift instead. Because it's been a bit of a pain. Uh, I don't know.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm new to the ecosystem. Like I've never built any big apps with React Native. I've done like bug fixes when I was working at a consultancy and then like tried to spin up like to do apps. But I am building a puzzle app with React Native and the builds are so slow. Obviously I could look into it, but like sometimes the builds take 10 minutes just to get me in a working Android app that I can test out directly without dev mode.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  And so that's not great. And then recently I've been working on just like a companion Android app for my watch, which I'm writing some firmware for. And I did that just directly in Android, no React Native. It builds in like two minutes. It works well. So I don't know. It's probably just, I'm not used to the ecosystem. I could be doing something better, but there are a lot of like dependencies it all adds in when you're using expo and that whole stack. So.

• 39:35Wes Bos?

  The, I don't, I don't know. Is Swift any better though? Like I, I think that we're very spoiled as web developers to get this amazing like starts in 30 milliseconds, hot reload it absolutely everywhere, deploy in like in 30 seconds. And even.

• 39:53Scott Tolinski?

  For me, the thing though, the issue is we're like trying to get things to look system cohesive with like the liquid glass stuff especially, or like, oh, I need the top bar colors and bottom bar colors or the, the new modern stuff to be the exact way I wanted. And it's absolutely a skill issue. I'm not a React Native expert, although at one point I did do a ton of React Native and I released a full course on it. But that was like eight years ago. So yeah.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:23Scott Tolinski?

  I've been left behind in that world.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  You have anything for us, Scott?

• 40:28Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, Herder has, well, one, they raised 6 million bucks in their hiring. So Herder is turning from a little toey to a company here real quick. And somewhat recently, they launched plugin support. But one of the bigger updates they just had, man, they're almost at a million installs here. That's pretty cool. Herder, if you don't know, is a way to run your sessions for your AI agents. People often say, just use TMX, just use this or that, whatever. But Herder manages it all in a really nice and easy way, including even the SSH stuff, including letting you know when your agents are done, giving you niceties like select to copy and keyboard and mouse support.

• 41:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, all of these things, or at least most of these things are available in TMX as well. But this does it all in one nice little package. And the agent letting you know when your agents are finished and stuff like this stuff is all very, very good. It's a wonderful little thing. In fact, I actually wonder why theirs looks better than mine. Mine doesn't look this good for some reason. I gotta, I gotta look into that. Like the spacing on mine doesn't line up. Either way, the update that they had just announced, which is particularly important to me, allows you to connect all of your machines in one Herder instance. So before what I was doing, since I have Herder running on my Mac Mini, I got it running on my desktop here, I would have to have two different tabs in my term, which would then have the agents that are running on my MacBook and the agents that are running on

• 41:57Scott Tolinski?

  my Mini, and they're just separate Herder processes. Now, what you can do is you can add a machine directly to your Herder instance here as a remote machine. And what happens is that they all just show up in one Herder instance. This is all really tiny. Let's see if I can bump this up here. So you can see I have my Mini and my local all side by side here in one Herder instance. And it's over the remote on the network via my Tailscale network, just via SSH. So it was painless to set up. I just ran one command, the machine add command, and all it did is just plopped it right in here. And next thing you know, I have my Mini and my local side by side. No more double Herder here.

• 42:42Scott Tolinski?

  So gotta love this. Big, big fan of this project. And are you guys using, you guys are using Herder, right? But are you using like any extensions or anything? Or are you getting crazy with it?

• 42:53Wes Bos?

  The only thing I use with Herder is the skill, which is like, pop open a new pane below or open a new tab and do X, Y, and Z. And I absolutely love that because I hate it. The simplest thing of like, start the dev server and it just like starts it in the background and you have no, you can't view it. And they're like, oh, I need to look at the logs. And then you gotta like start your own and then the port is running. You gotta kill it and it's annoying. You know, it's so much nicer. We can just say like, pop open a new one below. Or even like, if you're doing any of this like hardware, like ESP32 development, you can just say like, all right, do all of your builds and deploys in a secondary pane that

• 43:36Wes Bos?

  is below or fire up another open code instance. You know, you can like, I am the conductor and fire up three or four different instances and do whatever. Like I was working on my Omashi.

• 43:51Wes Bos?

  And I, there's like, like three or four plugins that I wanted to work on, right? And simultaneously, so I had like one, like mama going. And I said, just like every single time I ask for a new feature, open up a new Herder pane, open up a new open code instance and, and go ahead and build it. And then everything will sort of come back to you as the conductor.

• 44:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I did that. And I told Pi to use and open up pains and I did it very sloppily. I did it with an agent just saying, hey, just have this thing open. And what happened was Pi decided to, or whatever agent I was running at that point, decided to just open up like 100 different Herder panes. So there was just like multiplying, it went, went crazy, doing all kinds of stupid things. Wes, I noticed something here on the Herder page. Randy, can you toss over to the screen? Says, now, new to the herd.

• 44:48Scott Tolinski?

  You see that Wes?

• 44:49Wes Bos?

  What? Oh, yeah. Somebody sent me a DM about that.

• 44:54Wes Bos?

  Somebody ported the Cobalt 2 to Herder, which is crazy because I thought that it already looked decent in my, my theme, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

• 45:03Scott Tolinski?

  Funny. How many times you open up a website like this or any website and you see Wes's name somewhere on the website for you guys? Somebody him saying something about it or what have you, what a guy?

• 45:14Wes Bos?

  Somebody commented, this seems similar to Mitchell Hashimoto's Super Logical. We talked about this last week, but Super Logical doesn't aim to be, to replace like the Herder, which is the orchestration layer for all of your agents. It, it just aims to be like a TMX alternative. And I think the idea with Super Logical is something like Herder could come along and use that as their multiplexing layer.

• 45:45Wes Bos?

  And that's great because like the one thing I hate in like Herder and open code and all these things right now is like the scrolling is absolutely awful. You know, like you scroll too far and it's like, oh, everything's gone. And I much prefer the native scrolling in like a desktop application, but I prefer the experience in terminal. I just keep going over the same thing every single time as I'm unhappy with everything.

• 46:08Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 46:08Wes Bos?

  And I've tried them all.

• 46:09Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Of course. Yes, yes, yes.

• 46:13Wes Bos?

  I got something for you. Homebrew 7. Homebrew is the CLI for installing applications on Mac and Windows. So it's great because previously you'd have to like run bake, build commands and do all this obnoxious stuff. And for the last, probably as, as long as I've had a Mac, probably 15 years, you just brew install something and it can install it in there. Now they've released a version 7, which couple important things, right?

• 46:46Wes Bos?

  Is it vulnerability checks and advisory database? That's really good because if, one thing about Homebrew is it aggressively updates for you by default, which is so frustrating. I hate it so much because you, you brew install one thing and it's like, oh, you want to install this one little tool just so you can get on with your job? How about we update every app on your computer that you've ever wanted to install? Every version of Python you've ever tried? Let's update it. It's so obnoxious. So that's obnoxious, but it's also a security issue because like if, if one bad thing gets, gets leaked, then we're out. So there's built in vulnerability checking in Homebrew 7, stronger sandboxing, native macOS app. Oh, that's interesting.

• 47:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 47:32Wes Bos?

  Like a GUI?

• 47:33Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 47:33Wes Bos?

  I don't know if I need that or not, maybe.

• 47:34Scott Tolinski?

  I don't need it. Now that I got Raycast, I do it in Raycast, but it's nice that it exists.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  There is like the whole Homebrew casks ecosystem where you can install like desktop apps.

• 47:44Wes Bos?

  GUI apps.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  So I did, yeah, exactly. So I found like a third party one a while back where it was almost like an app store, but you just install the apps from Homebrew casks. So I'm wondering if this is like a native, I haven't looked at it yet. I wonder if it's like a native or like a officially supported thing or way to install casks.

• 48:02Wes Bos?

  I wouldn't mind a GUI for it actually, because I know I have so much garbage that I've brew installed over the years.

• 48:09Scott Tolinski?

  Same.

• 48:09Wes Bos?

  And I just can't wait to get a new computer because I want to start again. And like, I don't know, I don't know what, what's in there. And I, I am always running out of space and I know there's probably some weird like font conversion thing that I brew installed six years ago that I, I don't need anymore. So I gotta figure out how to get rid of those. I'm, and I know there's ways to do that inside of Homebrew, but a nice GUI of being like, hey, here are some things that you don't use anymore.

• 48:35Scott Tolinski?

  What's on my computer right now? Yes.

• 48:37Wes Bos?

  Yeah. That's actually one thing, I'm sorry to keep being the Omashi guy, but when you update Omashi, it removes all of the unused things that are like, like orphaned, right? It's like, oh, here you, you have these things installed, but you're not using them anywhere on your system. Nothing is linked to it. You want us to clean it up for you? And sometimes I say yes, because that's nice.

• 49:03Scott Tolinski?

  Speaking of clean it up for us.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Feature, I'll say.

• 49:06Scott Tolinski?

  Can I talk about my ZerkJS story?

• 49:09Wes Bos?

  Actually just made it, so.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  No, it's, it works on every Linux, every, every, every Linux distro does that automatically. I'll just, okay, continue, Scott.

• 49:17Scott Tolinski?

  No, no, no, please, I love this. I love this.

• 49:20Wes Bos?

  CJ, please go back to your folding Android phone. Us Mac guys are excited because we just learned about Linux.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  Okay, great. Okay, I'll let it, I'll let it be.

• 49:28Scott Tolinski?

  I actually do love how many people like respond to any of the things that we do. It's like, oh, Mac guy learned about Linux. I was like, brother, I've been running Linux since, uh, when you were in diapers, brother.

• 49:41Wes Bos?

  Some, yeah, somebody sent me the worst burn ever on, on Twitter the other day. They, they said that I was a Heroku deployer.

• 49:50Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yes.

• 49:51Wes Bos?

  As like, as a way to like, be like, these guys who just deployed a Heroku are learning about Linux now. I'm like, please, I've been managing my own servers for like 15 years. I had Digital Ocean when it was $5, you know?

• 50:06Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 50:08Wes Bos?

  Get out of here.

• 50:08Scott Tolinski?

  What was that Media Temple? I had a VPS on Media Temple.

• 50:11Wes Bos?

  Yes, me too. I had, I bought a static IP on Media Temple.

• 50:15Scott Tolinski?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:16Wes Bos?

  Get out of here.

• 50:17Scott Tolinski?

  I installed SSLs with Komodo, whatever.

• 50:19Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 50:20Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, I had the lock on my website.

• 50:24Scott Tolinski?

  That's right.

• 50:25Wes Bos?

  But that was a pretty good burn, though.

• 50:27Scott Tolinski?

  It was a pretty good burn.

• 50:27Wes Bos?

  I appreciated that.

• 50:28Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Heroku was kind of cool when it came out, though, at least aesthetically. I never understood why it was so expensive, but I did think it was cool. Very cool.

• 50:35Wes Bos?

  Easy. Same thing as, same as Versal, man. People are willing to pay for the ease of use.

• 50:40Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes, and good design.

• 50:44Scott Tolinski?

  Cool. What do we want to get into, guys? I was, I was gonna talk about my Zurich thing, but we can talk about this personal agent thing you got pulled up. CJ, what do you want to get into?

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Sure, I just want to mention it and see if you guys have any thoughts on it. So this was announced by Meta. It's called Muse. It's their new personal AI agent. And this kind of brings almost like a

• 51:11Speaker 02

  OpenClaw type thing to the average Facebook user. So it's like every person that signs up basically gets their own little computer, little VM in the cloud that can do things in the background.

• 51:22Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  And so you, you talked about Grokbot a couple of streams back, Wes, and this feels like that, but a bit more like polished in terms of like UI and integrations. And it also kind of feel like, I don't use Facebook. And, but my parents do. They're like the only people I know that use Facebook. But it kind of seems like the play to get the non-technical people into AI agents and so. And also maybe a play by Meta to make themselves more relevant again.

• 51:52Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  I don't, did you guys see the announcement about it or?

• 51:54Wes Bos?

  I did. It's, it, this is exactly what we need to get non-technical people into agents. So I'll, I'll give you an example. Yesterday, I have, I've got a Grokbot running on my email that every single time an email from my kids' teachers or from the kid's school or from anything comes in, which is, we, I have four kids. We get several emails a day where you have to like read through it. And they have these awful PDFs that you gotta like parse through. And they have all this clip art everywhere and it's, it's, it's a lot.

• 52:27Scott Tolinski?

  They're rough.

• 52:28Wes Bos?

  Yeah. I brought, I made a Grokbot, which it will, every single time an email comes in, it will parse out all of the needed information. It will save any of the photos, which is another thing. They always put like photos of our children in these like PDFs. And I'm like, I want to save that, but it's in a PDF. So it will like break them out of the PDF and save them into my Google Photos. And so yesterday, my wife is like, all right, we need to, we need to practice spelling. I just spent half an hour making a word search or a crossword for our kids with their things. And she's like, that was a lot of work. And, and then one of our other kids says, I also would like a crossword. And my wife's like, oh, I don't know. I don't have time to make a second one.

• 53:10Wes Bos?

  And I just opened my phone and go make a word search and a crossword out of both of our kids' spelling tests. Boom. Three minutes later, crossword, word search for all of the kids' spelling words and printed them off. And my wife is like, holy crap. She's like, that just worked? And like, that was like the first time that she like understood.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:32Wes Bos?

  That, I can't believe that you can just do that. And then she came to me later and she says, it knew that the spelling words were in a different PDF on Google Drive and we actually have the words for the whole year. So it knew how to like parse it out just and get this week's. It knew what this week is. I'm like, yeah, it's really good, right? And, and like, that was like the first aha moment for her to be like, oh yeah, that, this is really cool. And I think like, like who else has a bigger collection of normies than Facebook? Right? That's, it's gonna be, that's gonna be huge for them.

• 54:06Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, that all seems fine for them, but could not be me. I ain't running.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  No.

• 54:12Scott Tolinski?

  Zetter or Zetterberg, I almost called it Zetterberg. I'm talking about the Detroit Red Wings, folks. I got, I got the Detroit Red Wings on the brain because they don't train Dylan Larkin. Talk Hockey, folks. Yes, no, I, I, I, I can't, I cannot bring myself to that. I can barely feel like I can even like run Instagram and feel happy about it. I, I don't know. I'm, I'm of the, the, you know, you just see that message from Mark Zuckerberg a long time ago. It says, people just trust me, dumb F's. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, he's not, he's not like a fundamentally different person. So I don't, I don't know, man.

• 54:49Wes Bos?

  Now, though, he's cool.

• 54:50Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's really cool, man. I, I just like, fine, that's fine. This is cool that it exists. It's not going to be me. I'm not running it, that's for sure. So, hey, I'll, I'll do whatever, my nerd stuff. I'll, I'll be here in my nerd stuff.

• 55:03Wes Bos?

  Yeah. But like, go ahead, sorry.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  Well, I was just gonna say like, I, I haven't, you, I never used Claudebot or OpenClaw or any of the newer ones. Like, I'm still resistant to give AI access to all of my data and all of my apps.

• 55:18Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 55:18Speaker 02

  I'm working, working on my own personal assistant that tries to really like lock things away and create friction around getting access to my email or doing these for me. Because like, I'm not denying the usefulness of being able to like read my email and tell me what's relevant or find an email from five years ago that has what I'm talking about right now. Like, that's all very useful, but you, when you hook it up just directly to the Gmail API, there are potential prompt injections. And if it's full access to the API, it could send emails or send your data to attackers or whatever else. And so every.

• 55:53Wes Bos?

  Not to mention giving advertising companies access to everything, you know? When does that start to get abused?

• 56:00Scott Tolinski?

  I mean, if you've got an LG TV in the house, they already listen to you, so, Jesus.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  But which is why, yeah, but which is why like, I'm building my own personal assistant for our home that is more locked down. It's more purpose built. And I don't think I'd ever release it as a product, like maybe, but like that. Because I also feel like my, my needs are more niche, right? Like, I don't have any smart home stuff that talks to the cloud. Everything smart for home I have is purely inside of my house. So I've never been someone that wanted to, to have my stuff associated with my personal home and everything else in the cloud or owned by someone else.

• 56:34Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  So, yeah, it's not for me, but the ideas are cool. I don't know.

• 56:39Wes Bos?

  I'm curious to see what happens when the normies get access to agents. Because like, it hasn't gone well giving normies access to like regular AI. At least the stuff that you see, you know, like all the awful posters that are getting cranked out, all the.

• 56:54Scott Tolinski?

  I got thoughts about that.

• 56:55Wes Bos?

  Even like, like CBC, Canada Broadcasting Corporation, their TikTok. You can, there's this one anchor and she's clearly using AI to write her scripts. And it drives me nuts. And, and everybody's just gobbling it up and not, not recognizing it. And it, I don't know if I should be irked by that or not, but I feel like I've, I've ruined a lot of that stuff for myself. And I don't know what's gonna happen when they get access to this identic stuff looping.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Right, I mean, that's what I'm also worried about. Because like the, especially the, the feed on Facebook is just filled with AI slop videos and AI posts. And a lot of normies can't tell the difference between like a, a human post and like an AI-generated post.

• 57:36Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  And so you give, you give all of them access to their own personal agent VM and it's, it's gonna not be great.

• 57:46Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 57:46Wes Bos?

  Yeah. I, I don't know. I hope, hopefully, Facebook will stop some of the, the abuse, you know, of these types of things. But we'll see.

• 57:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll see.

• 57:59Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  I, I do see, so yeah, Derek commented, the first use case that really did it for me was my son's daycare post, a bunch of photos, downloading them one by one from the app was total pain. Now Hermes automatically hits the API every day. That's great. I don't know if you need a personal agent for that. Like, I would like spin up a one-off script to do it, but.

• 58:17Scott Tolinski?

  That's the move, yes.

• 58:18Wes Bos?

  This, you can't write a script for that. Like, it's, they're like, oh yeah, if it's like perfectly in the same app every single time. But I went and I said, go through the last seven years of my emails from my kids' schools and download all of photos. Sometimes the photos were in Google Photos. Sometimes they were in attached. Sometimes they were in PDFs that needed to be blown up and, and saved. Sometimes they were on just like, in like random, like websites that they linked off to that they made with Google Sites. There's so many possible permutations of where these photos live. And that's just one thing. And AI is so good at being able to just like adapt to whatever it is that they're using.

• 59:03Wes Bos?

  You know, I didn't say, all right, here, here's what you do if it's, if it's happening here. Or figure out how to reverse engineer the API. It's like, no, it's like, in some cases it will use an API. Some cases it'll just fire up a browser and save them. Some cases it will download them and split them up. And then also, there was all this clip art, you know? Like, it downloaded like, I think 4,000 photos, but about a thousand of them were clip art. And like, I don't want like a cupcake.png because it was someone's birthday. So like, I just, it just ripped through it and figured out which ones were clip art.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I get that. And I'm not saying write the script from scratch. I'm just saying like, why wouldn't you use OpenCode or Claude or something like that to build these things out? Why do you need a, an agent like Open, OpenClaw or Hermes? I guess that's my point is.

• 59:52Scott Tolinski?

  Hermes is really just a harness with a bunch of memory. Hermes, Hermes is, is essentially a harness with memory. Like, that is really it.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:00:00Wes Bos?

  Yeah. Yeah, I don't think there's, there's much of a difference other than they have like Zapier and integrated with it. So you can hook up your Google Calendar or your like weird CRM from your work.

• 1:00:12Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Word.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay.

• 1:00:16Scott Tolinski?

  Okay.

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  I'm still not gonna use it, but okay. Tell us about Switzerland, Scott. What's going on?

• 1:00:21Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, yes, the Switzerland, man. I gotta say, shout out to everyone in Switzerland, everyone that went to everyone, every person in Switzerland. Shout out to y'all. Switzerland was dope. I went to ZerkJS. And we spent some time in Zermatt and Grindelwald. Before that, we got to do some hiking. We got to go to all kinds of cool stuff. The conference was awesome. This was their first time throwing their conference and man, the lineup was really great. Daniel Rose Talk was awesome. He had like a live emoji during the talk, so you could go on your phone and react to it. So the entire time he's speaking, there's just emoji flying.

• 1:00:59Wes Bos?

  Oh, that's cool. That's a great idea.

• 1:01:02Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. It was just great. Yeah, Kevin Powell was there. It was great to meet him. Tejas, obviously, was just, you know, as dynamic as ever. So the conference was awesome, man. I had a great time at this conference. And, ooh, actually, you know what? I've been thinking about why I open sourced my slides. I want to show my slides for a second. Folks, my slides were awesome. I'm just gonna say that right now. I made some sick slides and I want to share them with you. In the last talk I did, where was that? At Amsterdam at React.

• 1:01:33Wes Bos?

  JS Nation.

• 1:01:34Scott Tolinski?

  I did some 3JS style slides and I brought my 3JS style slides back again, but I tricked everybody. So I had this whole thing going where obviously they, you know, it looks like a term, but they look like slides, right? I mean, these just look like slides or whatever. And then at this point, it like kind of bubbles up. I got my charts. This is all interactive. And I got little quotes from the stuff. And then after I get to a certain point here, you'll see I have this grand reveal. I even have a slot machine in here, which is pretty sick. God. Yeah, it's crazy. Either way, at some point, it pulls back and the whole time you've been watching inside a

• 1:02:14Scott Tolinski?

  computer monitor. And this is a little diorama here. And it's, man, it was just so cool. People people did not see it coming. And I think it really got people talking about this. And then you go back in here and it eventually pulls back out and you're in an office building. Ah, man, I had a lot of fun.

• 1:02:34Wes Bos?

  What did you model these in? Or is this just three? Or did you do use like Blender or something?

• 1:02:40Scott Tolinski?

  So this is using React 3 fiber and 3JS. I modeled everything inside of initially, inside of just using React 3 fiber. Just and then that looked like terrible. So then I had it create the files directly. And then eventually, to get them looking way better, I connected Blender MCP to it. And I got Blender MCP set up. So this is all, they were all made better by Blender MCP and Astra eventually. But initially, it was like, not in Blender. And once I did move it to Blender, they got a lot better.

• 1:03:18Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:20Wes Bos?

  It's so cool. It's like fun. When you do a talk, you have to have something good to look at, right? Because like they're listening to you, but if you just have text on a slide, you know, I always try to have just like looping demos on my slides while I'm talking about something because this gives you something to look at. And the audience really likes that. But this is just next level.

• 1:03:39Scott Tolinski?

  Gotta have some razzle dazzle. And if we can do this now, man, it was just like a really neat, neat thing, I think, to do. And this conference was just such an awesome place. So I had a great time at this conference. But what I want to talk about now is what happened on my way home from the conference, if that's okay with you guys.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  Trigger warning. Yeah, trigger warning. If you're sensitive to, if you're eating right now, probably mute the stream.

• 1:04:06Scott Tolinski?

  You can skip forward like 30, 40 seconds, or you can pause it. Guys, we were on a plane that was delayed and then delayed. And then we got on the plane. They made us wait like two hours before it took off. We were on a plane that should have been like 10 hours, on the plane for 12. And halfway through the flight, back from Zurich to Chicago, my son got trapped between the two drink carts and he had to, he got sick. And he got sick all over the aisle in the airplane, mid-flight of an international flight. I felt so bad for him. He was clearly exhausted. And everybody was so mad at us, obviously. And you just feel so bad. It was horrific.

• 1:04:51Scott Tolinski?

  So I cannot recommend.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  In the seats, did they have the like

• 1:04:55Scott Tolinski?

  No, they didn't.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  bags?

• 1:04:57Wes Bos?

  The puke bags are gone. The puke bags are almost entirely gone. I don't see them that often anymore.

• 1:05:03Scott Tolinski?

  Guys.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I blame it on the flight then. Yeah, like anybody getting mad at you, like what could you do? He's blocked by the carts. You don't have a bag. Yeah.

• 1:05:10Scott Tolinski?

  We saw the full, we saw the full, like, awfulness of people being just like, I mean, obviously it sucks for everybody, right? But like, he got totally stuck and he tried. It was like, he could have made it. He got, I mean, I felt so bad for him. And then, gosh.

• 1:05:27Wes Bos?

  How far into your 12 hour flight was this?

• 1:05:30Scott Tolinski?

  About 50% of the way through, yes.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  Oh, my god.

• 1:05:33Wes Bos?

  Are awful.

• 1:05:35Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, it was awful. You felt awful for him. It's like, he wasn't phased. He was like, okay, you know, it's fine, whatever. But, you know, we were just like feeling really bad. And then we get to the gate at our transfer in Chicago. And we decide to take it easy and have a really light snack because we hadn't eaten in a long time. And, you know, we had some water. And he loses it again, everywhere in the line, like that people have to wait to get onto the plane. Every single person getting on or off that plane had to walk through it because they did not clean it up after like an hour in Chicago. It was crazy. And then, like, my wife covered. Felt

• 1:06:17Scott Tolinski?

  terrible for her. I felt so bad. We ended up not getting on the flight and just went into a hotel. I felt so bad. It was, it was just like a mess. And people, every single person in the entire section of the airports talking about you. It was crazy. I walked back to go tell the people we weren't getting on the plane. And some guy says, that's the guy. Loudly enough that I could hear it.

• 1:06:39Wes Bos?

  That's the puker. Get him.

• 1:06:42Scott Tolinski?

  That was just, it was just the worst. So really long, really, really long trip home.

• 1:06:49Scott Tolinski?

  But little guy's feeling a lot better. He's back at school today. And, yeah, oh, yeah. I can't recommend the airport at the Chicago, or the hotel at the Chicago airport, by the way. That airport is on notice. It looks bad.

• 1:07:03Wes Bos?

  I'm pretty sure I've stayed at that one. Chicago is like layover cancellation city.

• 1:07:09Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:07:09Wes Bos?

  Had to stay over there unfortunately a few times.

• 1:07:11Scott Tolinski?

  By the way, that was yesterday, or I got back yesterday and the day before is when all this stuff went down. We were washing our clothes in the sink at the hotel, or at least my wife was because we did not have a change of clothes. So, yes.

• 1:07:25Scott Tolinski?

  That is gross. It was gross. Sorry, folks. That's the end of my story. But the conference was awesome and great people. I can't wait for the next ZerkJS.

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  Nice. I hear the static all of a sudden. What, yeah, what do you, what do you have there?

• 1:07:40Speaker 03

  Do you hear my static? What are you talking about?

• 1:07:44Scott Tolinski?

  You hear my static? Yes.

• 1:07:48Speaker 02

  What are you holding on to? What is that?

• 1:07:49Wes Bos?

  Let me show you this, guys. This guy, this guy, this guy, this guy. This is the

• 1:07:58Wes Bos?

  Mic FX.

• 1:08:00Scott Tolinski?

  Okay, we've suddenly gone into next headroom or something territory.

• 1:08:04Wes Bos?

  Let me, let me switch back to a regular microphone. But I'll tell you about this. It's really cool. All right. I'm back to my regular mic. But this is really cool. So this is teenage engineering. They make like, cool stuff. Scott, how would you describe teenage engineering?

• 1:08:23Scott Tolinski?

  Teenage engineering. Well, you know, their design.

• 1:08:26Wes Bos?

  Audio equipment with nice design?

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, they have synthesizers, MCPs.

• 1:08:31Scott Tolinski?

  Famous for their OP1. And then this is the OP1 field that I have. But they make great little, little custom synths with an emphasis on design and like boutique kind of stuff. They're wonderful in terms of like their aesthetics, in terms of their overall hardware quality. Their biggest downsides with most teenage engineering things is that they are too expensive.

• 1:08:55Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:56Scott Tolinski?

  But this is the coolest little keyboard and I use this way more than I use anything else for making music. So.

• 1:09:01Wes Bos?

  It's really cool. So I saw this on their website, which is the Mic FX. And essentially what it is, is it's just a regular 3.5 millimeter jack that you plug in. But on the microphone itself, if you visualize it, it's like a trucker microphone, where you like have a, on the side, you have like a little paddle that you can push in. And then there's three buttons on the side. And what you can do with that is you can program in your own effects. It's just a little Raspberry Pi in there. And there's a JSON file and you plug it in via USB C. And you can like stack all the effects. So I could do like, I could make my voice higher or lower. And you can shake it

• 1:09:46Wes Bos?

  because there's accelerometer into it. You can tell how far you've pushed in the side little button. It's a, it's a pretty cool little toy. I bought it because it was like very hackable. And since getting it, I've looked into it. Like there's people have like built custom firmwares and everything for it because it's just a little Raspberry Pi Pico inside, which is similar to like an ESP32.

• 1:10:10Scott Tolinski?

  It's a Pico in there. Interesting.

• 1:10:12Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 1:10:13Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. Very nice. That's cool. I just, I don't need any additional teenage engineering gear because I have too much of it already.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  Do you have the MPC too, Scott?

• 1:10:26Scott Tolinski?

  I don't. Well, yeah, they're, they're, I have the KO2 right here.

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:10:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, this is the first one I got. It was a good entry level one because the pricing was actually reasonable on it. I got this because I didn't want to spend the money on the OP1F, but then they did a big sale on it and I just had to have it.

• 1:10:45Wes Bos?

  The, another hardware news, I'm gonna try to always do cool hardware stuff on this thing is

• 1:10:51Scott Tolinski?

  What a declaration. Yes.

• 1:10:53Wes Bos?

  Yeah. If, Randy, show my screen. 3Conf had like 3JS had a conference. And their badges, which conference badges that are cool are a thing now, were like, like a little circle screen, a couple buttons on it. I'm assuming it's some ESP32, like similar to the ones that CJ and I have right now, that you can sort of like hack on. But I thought, A, the design immaculate, super cool, but also like a really fun thing to have for attendees to sort of hack on it.

• 1:11:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, it's very cool.

• 1:11:32Speaker 02

  The whole like 3D, it feels like a 3D printed case around a circular screen. But it's like done nicely and there's like physical buttons on it and people's names are, I don't know if they're printed, but they almost look like 3D on the badge itself.

• 1:11:46Scott Tolinski?

  How did they make this many of them?

• 1:11:48Wes Bos?

  I think, I think this is resin. I think what they do with the, this is, they have like a little eyedropper of resin and you drop it on the letters. And then you, you cure it and it gives it that kind of beveled.

• 1:12:03Scott Tolinski?

  And yeah.

• 1:12:04Wes Bos?

  Smooth look. Like you can clearly tell it's 3D printed right here. Because there's like some supports they didn't scratch out.

• 1:12:11Scott Tolinski?

  That must've taken a while to do by hand for every.

• 1:12:13Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah. They probably were cranking. It's, I don't know, probably a couple hundred people at the conference. You could probably print the six at a time, but yeah, it probably took.

• 1:12:26Scott Tolinski?

  I know, while making that little prompt boy and then the buttons don't come for free. You gotta.

• 1:12:30Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Scott Tolinski?

  Get those onto the board somehow.

• 1:12:32Wes Bos?

  Is there like a custom board hooked up to these buttons? Maybe they, they even like did a custom PCB for it. Cause like.

• 1:12:39Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, do they have.

• 1:12:40Wes Bos?

  You have to be able to click them, right? Somebody's got to crack one open.

• 1:12:42Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Yes. Ooh, crack one open. Yes.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  In terms of hardware badges, I like this one. Cause like, I mean, it's probably hackable, but it's also, like we're at the point where it's cheap enough to do something like this. You don't have to be a hacker conference or whatever else. And it's kind of built for people that aren't necessarily going to hack on it later. Like the, the whole idea was like, you get two badges close to each other and it like pairs. It's like a conversation starter. So like, that's a.

• 1:13:08Wes Bos?

  That's cute.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's a cool way to also like meet people at the comf as well.

• 1:13:13Scott Tolinski?

  It is very.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  I think it's great.

• 1:13:15Scott Tolinski?

  I think it's great. Yes. I love this kind of stuff. Yes.

• 1:13:19Wes Bos?

  I could never, AI could never imagine something that cool.

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  Yes. You have to have the idea. It could help, but you have to have the idea first.

• 1:13:26Wes Bos?

  Totally.

• 1:13:27Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  In other news, there's this post called, uh, don't let anyone take away your big box of cables. And so there was a, a post on Blue Sky from Tyler Gah. It says, I just dug to the bottom of my big box of cables to find two cables that I needed for something. They've been in the bottom for 10 plus years. So when are you ever going to use it? Was today. Don't let everyone, don't ever let anyone take away your big box of cables. And then this blog post quotes it and they actually printed out that Blue Sky post and taped it to their big box of cables at their house. But I agree. I mean, I've had that scenario like maybe twice. And, and yeah, it was like six years later. I was like, oh, I had this weird charger, but I want to use this device again. And it's in the box. I probably have a hundred USB C.

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  I have like a hundred micro USB, a hundred mini USB, like mini USB and micro USB. I probably could get rid of and just have one at this point, but I don't know. You guys have a big, a big box of cables as well?

• 1:14:24Wes Bos?

  Oh, man. Yeah. I have the most here. Can I move my camera here? Randy, put me up? I don't know if this is a good idea, but.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  We're going IRL mode. Here we go.

• 1:14:34Wes Bos?

  I can't point my camera. There we go. I have like, I probably have 20 shoe boxes of cables. And they're so perfectly organized into like USB C, old USB C audio. Like this morning I needed a little, what 3.5 mil jack? And I just went right for my audio box and put it in there. I have absolutely everything. I had a friend, panicking one Sunday night. They needed like an old, like 12 year old MacBook to VGA. Uh, yeah. Cause they had a big presentation the next morning and I was like, I got it. I got you. And they gave me like a whole case of beer for it. It's, I'm that person.

• 1:15:16Scott Tolinski?

  I, yeah, I am too. I, I, I got little bins, like, um, I, I can't find, I'm trying to find them on Amazon. Cause they're cheap little bins, like really little ones, like almost the size of a shoebox, plastic bins with a lid. And I did a print labels on all of them and I just have them all stacked up in my basement. And again, every single thing is labeled, if I need a Firewire 400 cable or a Firewire 800 cable, I got it. Absolutely.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  I use those, those are like shoeboxes, right? Wes, I have this.

• 1:15:45Wes Bos?

  Yeah. You buy these at Home Depot. They go on sale for like a buck 50. You got, wait till they're on sale at Home Depot. And buy a million of them.

• 1:15:53Scott Tolinski?

  Yep.

• 1:15:54Wes Bos?

  And you gotta be able, they gotta be clear because, and they gotta have the clear lid as well. They sometimes have white lids, but then you can be able to look underneath and find exactly that, oh, look at it. I need five volt LEDs. Baby, do I have it. I don't even have to open them.

• 1:16:10Scott Tolinski?

  I use my label printer and so I got nice little, uh, labels on them.

• 1:16:14Wes Bos?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:15Scott Tolinski?

  A gravestone for obsolete cables. Yes.

• 1:16:18Wes Bos?

  I just chicken scratch it.

• 1:16:20Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:16:21Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 1:16:22Scott Tolinski?

  Guys, can I talk about aerospace?

• 1:16:24Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 1:16:25Scott Tolinski?

  Okay. Aerospace is not new. Aerospace has existed for a decent amount of time. It's a tiling manager for Mac OS and all these people talking about Omarchi this, Omarchi that. Uh, I, I can't reasonably move to Omarchi full time, given our workflows and all that stuff. There's one thing that really drives me nuts about Mac OS is the latency for everything. Um, you, you do Expose, you do this, you do that, you do tiling. Every single thing in Mac OS has some major latency and people who have not used like Arch Linux or Catchy OS. Or people have not used something other than Windows or Mac OS do not know just how stinking fast it is to open up Windows, to go between things.

• 1:17:07Scott Tolinski?

  And it's not just like an animations thing, like a little bit of a rant. Every time you look into this stuff, it's like, people are just like, oh, just turn on use reduced motion and turn off transparency and everything's fine. It's not, it doesn't get rid of the latency. Uh, it doesn't, it's like a system wide thing and my computer's beefy. It's got 64 gigabytes of RAM. Um, it's pretty good. But one thing I, I wanted to have was something that felt snappier. And so I've been really getting into making my computer feel more like a Linux or an Omarchi type of deal. So I started using aerospace, which is just simply a tiling manager that again will, um, automatically behave like Hyperland in terms of like, um, tiling up your stuff. Really nice.

• 1:17:51Scott Tolinski?

  But it also does like spaces as well. So instead of using the built in Mac OS spaces, I have the workspaces that I can toggle between. And then I use something called Sketchy Bar. So Sketchy Bar kind of replaces the top bar entirely. So unlike something like, um, what's the one that hides it? Bartender or whatever? Ice? So I just have the Mac OS feature to hide it automatically. So if I need all this stuff, I just mouse up to it. And then if I don't, it's the minimal one that just shows my apps and my workspaces. Then I used a Better Touch Tool to swipe between the two and look at how instant that is. It feels like Linux. It's so fast. I'm swiping between with three finger swipe.

• 1:18:36Scott Tolinski?

  And then I thought, you know, the one thing that I'm missing with all of this is that I, I really like the three finger gesture up to show all of my windows, um, which is painfully slow sometimes. And it's got to do it with an exact one to one animation when I really, I just want, see it all, see it, you know, whatever. What do I got going on? So I built something called Aero Peak. Aero Peak is a, uh, the AI wrote this. It's an Expose companion for aerospace. So this works with aerospace in my setup and look at that. Boom.

• 1:19:11Wes Bos?

  Oh, that's great.

• 1:19:12Scott Tolinski?

  Boom.

• 1:19:13Wes Bos?

  I, I built that for Oh Monkey and I got roasted. Everybody's like, you're missing the point. You're missing the point of tiling window manager. I was like, I have landed, I have landed commits in aerospace. I, I used it for like a month and it's awesome. I ended up getting rid of aerospace because it doesn't work well for resizing windows for recording.

• 1:19:35Scott Tolinski?

  Yes.

• 1:19:36Wes Bos?

  But that's why I ditched it. But maybe, maybe that has changed because that was probably two years ago.

• 1:19:42Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. So let me tell you what I've done with aerospace in general there. There's been a whole bunch for me and what I've realized is that I hated aerospace until I decided and found out that AI agents are good at aerospace configs. So now I just have my agent work on my aerospace config to get it snappy, to get it fast, to get it doing what I want it to do. I say, I don't want it to do this. It does it, whatever. And again, like, if you want to click around and use the mouse, you got that. And you can see which apps are running in the top here with my Sketchy Bar. And the, the Sketchy Bar just is nice. I, I mean, I like it. And again, this Expose was the only thing I was missing. I put an agent on it and said, build me an Expose clone for aerospace and it did it.

• 1:20:21Wes Bos?

  Need the menu bar? Like, are there not apps in the menu bar that you need?

• 1:20:25Scott Tolinski?

  You just, if you, if you need the menu bar, you just hover up top here. It's there.

• 1:20:29Wes Bos?

  Okay. It peaks down. Okay.

• 1:20:31Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah. Peaks down. Nice and easy. So if I need it, it's there. But you know, for the most part, like, I'm not staring at, like, why do I need to stare at the menu bar? I mostly just want to see which workspaces are where. And all the keyboard commands are very Omarchi. So I want to move something to another space. It's like really easy to move to another space or whatever. If I want to move this one to space three, check out space three. Now I got a lot of stuff in space three, space five, what's do it? I mean, it's just fast and it feels way better than the, I, I like, normie, normie people could not possibly, um, use this. But after using Omar, Omarkey, Omarkey, Marky, um, yes.

• 1:21:09Speaker 02

  Oh, monkey.

• 1:21:10Scott Tolinski?

  Oh, monkey. Oh, after using a monkey for a bit. Yes. I, I gotta say it's sick. I'm a big fan of this. So.

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  It looks dope. I had looked into doing something like this in the past, but I'm just stuck in my ways of like, I use rectangle to put, uh, apps where I want them, left half, right half, full screen center. Um, I don't know if I could get used to windows automatically just being their size and me not being able to adjust them. Cause that's kind of what you get with the Hyperland or Tyler. It's like, it puts it where it's going to put it in it, like stacks them sideways or stacks them up. Um, I like resizing my windows.

• 1:21:44Wes Bos?

  Yeah. You really gotta buy into it.

• 1:21:46Scott Tolinski?

  You do.

• 1:21:48Wes Bos?

  Sometimes frustrating. It's just recording for me that it kills me because I'm I also like a lot of these tiling window managers are like not well suited for multi-displays. You can use them with multi-displays, but like the whole ideal and idea and methodology just works so well when you have one big ass display.

• 1:22:08Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I did. I did assign spaces six through 10 or six through zero, I should say, on my other one and then one through five because it's like, when am I going to need more than five spaces on one monitor? And then when I unplug all 10 of them, they just show up on this one. So that seemed to be a nice little fix for me in terms of the multi-display stuff. And I gotta say, it's feeling really snappy, guys. Better touch tool coming in clutch here.

• 1:22:31Wes Bos?

  Touch tool is the best.

• 1:22:33Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, it's been really nice. And I'm just trying to disable as much Mac OS slop as I can because like Stage Manager, come on, like, do we need that? Yeah.

• 1:22:44Wes Bos?

  Yeah, I don't. I don't use any of that stuff.

• 1:22:46Scott Tolinski?

  Just turn it all off. Yeah.

• 1:22:48Wes Bos?

  The three finger swipe between spaces if I'm I almost I don't use spaces when I'm like on my desktop. But when I'm on my laptop, I use them like crazy because there's not enough space.

• 1:23:01Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, I'm on patrol to eliminate slowdowns from this Mac system. So now that I got an agent and Astra, I'm just telling it like, you know, let's start, let's start adding some tracing or like just observability into what's going on in the system or what's causing the slowdown. I've it found like a NFS is NFS, the the drive mounting thing. Either way, I found like a stuck drive mounting thing that was just like running slowing my system down and stuff. So I'm just like, yeah, I'm on I'm on crush mode right now to get some of this performance better on this thing.

• 1:23:37Wes Bos?

  You know what I need? I need to watch somebody who's actually using this stuff for real work. So many of the like demos, like I've been trying to like get into the O Munchy and I like everyone's like, well, you just have your browser in one space and you have your terminal in the next. And then that's it. And like, I have like 20 apps open at once. Like, you know, you have those video editing and photo editing and and Figma and chat and like, I have a lot more stuff open and I aggressively close stuff. But like, my life is not as simple where I have a terminal, a text editor, and a browser open all day long. And that's it. So I just want to like, show me a video where somebody is actually using this stuff for their day to day work, rather than just demoing it as like, here's

• 1:24:22Wes Bos?

  what you can do. It's really neat.

• 1:24:24Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, yeah. By the way, I got a new backpack. You guys want to see it?

• 1:24:28Wes Bos?

  See it? Backpack. Oh, you got rid of the what's the? Oh, what is this?

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  What is it?

• 1:24:36Scott Tolinski?

  It's by Nomadix. And I got it because I was before going on this trip, I was feeling like, I was feeling like my backpack was heavy and it doesn't fit under the seat very well on an airplane. And I'm like, you know what? I just want something that is lighter. And this thing is in like the hiking kind of ultralight world. And it is very nice. There's an infinite amount of compartments to it. And there's side laptop sleeve spots and stuff. And it was just, it was very, very nice. There's even like a microfiber glasses pocket inside of here. So like, this is all microfiber lined for glasses. And then I was

• 1:25:21Scott Tolinski?

  able to fit so much stuff in here. And it did not weigh like anything. So I really like this backpack. I'll link it up. I'm a big fan. I wish they could give me some money for saying this, but.

• 1:25:34Wes Bos?

  Scott and I had, we both have the Peak Design Everyday 30 liter, which is like every tech bro in their life owns this backpack. And it's an awesome backpack, but it is heavy. And I'm starting to feel that like when I'm when I go traveling with my Peak Design, like, you throw the laptop in.

• 1:25:54Scott Tolinski?

  My back.

• 1:25:55Wes Bos?

  Also, 16 inch laptop, too big. I'm going 14 next time. You know, I everything is too heavy. I'm getting old. I want I want everything to be much lighter. And I'm thinking about them like, what would be I've had this Peak Design backpack for probably almost nine years, I bet. Like, it's, it's awesome, but it's just a bit too heavy. And it's starting to fray. And I'm wondering, what's the next backpack that I get?

• 1:26:19Scott Tolinski?

  This was exactly me. And I was just like, feeling it. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to go on this big, long trip throughout Switzerland, etc. And it's like, I'm going to be carrying this thing around. Maybe I'm going to be going hiking with it or something.

• 1:26:34Scott Tolinski?

  Yeah, here, I'll post the link to it. Have it in other colors, folks. But yeah, no, I got I got marketed this backpack. And I was like, let me check out some reviews. And people said it was really nice. And it's like, one of those like, high strength materials and stuff. So yes.

• 1:26:52Speaker 02

  I've got one last thing here. That's pretty funny. This was posted on Hacker News, but it the title is Claude, change the add to cart button to blue. And if you go to opus5.dev, this is basically like an Opus 5 simulator. So the title says, make the add to card button blue. Don't do not let Claude change anything else. You click Let's Go. And you have to say, what is your first prompt? Should it be make the add to card button blue? Should it be, could you change the add to card button to to blue, just that one? Or turn add to cart blue, don't touch anything else? So you choose one. And then you see like a simulated Claude thinking. And I played around with this for a while, and it just goes off the

• 1:27:36Speaker 02

  rails. Like, the first thing it does usually is it makes every button blue. And then you have to give like a follow up prompt like, well, no, I only wanted that button to be blue. And then it like, says that it's like spinning up agents to determine how it should make that button blue. I just thought this is a really great tongue in cheek way of talking about Opus and how eager it gets to do things right, but then also like, not do things right?

• 1:28:03Wes Bos?

  Yeah, this is not real, though, right? Because I saw this and I was like, it's killing you, right?

• 1:28:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not prompting Claude. No, it's it's it's there's like this, almost like a slot machine where after you give it an answer, it it picks how it's going to respond. And it's like, one honest caveat. And like, I split the check into eight different agents and direct consumers. We have 23 agents total bounded to the color path. Like, I don't know. I don't know about you, but this has been my experience with like Opus as well. Like, I think part, part of people saying like Opus 5 is so good, or even GPT-6 Astra is so good is it runs so many tools and it just keeps going and going and going to try to get to like what you asked it. And if you're watching it, it's actually very aggravating it to see how much it does that is useless or like it shouldn't be doing.

• 1:28:52Wes Bos?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:52Speaker 02

  But like, if you if you leave it in the background, sure, you come back 20 minutes later and it did what you wanted it to do. But how it got there, usually is pretty ridiculous. So I don't know, that's been my experience with it. But this site is hilarious because it just gives like, the most Claude like responses.

• 1:29:10Wes Bos?

  It's so true, though, because like, on, I think on Friday, we had an issue on the syntax website where the metadata for our podcast is done in like YAML. And one of the podcast episodes had a capital H on it. And that caused it to stop deploying to our website, right? And like, first of all, it should be typed, should probably be TypeScript or and and second of all, that was missed in our validation step, you know, like when we send a pull request for something, it should check, hey, are all the keys in here? It did check for the keys, but it checked, it didn't check for capital H hosts. It should be lowercase hosts. Such a silly, stupid thing. But it happened after, what, 1400

• 1:29:55Wes Bos?

  episodes, it happened once. So it prompted, hey, like, well, let's let's add this to validation so that if somebody mistypes or does a capital H on hosts, that was my example, then we don't do it. So what does it do? It goes into the validation, it goes into the importing logic, adds in a use case for capital H hosts. So it checks if it's hosts, or if it has a capital H host. And then it goes in into the import and adds that as well. Then it adds like acceptance tests for that. And like, no, none of this, like, what are we gonna add? We can add an if statement for every single possible mistype of this

• 1:30:35Wes Bos?

  type of thing? Like, no, we should say, if this is incorrect key, then just throw an error and we'll fix it, right? But it like, it's like, I will fix it for you. In case somebody has it a capital H, we will account for that. And it will just work. You know, it's a it's a yes man all day long.

• 1:30:51Scott Tolinski?

  Right. It's a yes man. I think we got a yes man situation. Yeah.

• 1:30:56Speaker 02

  So if you get far enough on this website, it gets to the point where it makes the button a gradient. And then it's like, I didn't know what color blue you wanted. So just let me know on this gradient, is it the left, the middle, or the right? And so like, you choose from the gradient and then it but also it changed the cancel button to be black now. I don't know, I'm deep in the hole of like, multiple prompts here to try to get this button blue. But yeah.

• 1:31:19Wes Bos?

  Yes.

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  This is the world we live in. AGI is here. Yeah.

• 1:31:23Scott Tolinski?

  Yes. I got one more thing that's not AI related, if we want to talk about it. Yes. The creator of Obsidian has released their Markdown, turns data, turns data into Markdown that is actually used within Obsidian. So this is their Markdown rendering library that is used in Obsidian. It's called, actually, it's called Knapp, I believe. I'm not joking. The creator of it did say you pronounce the K and not nap, which, come on, folks, can we, can you give me something that's not dumb to say for once? It is just nap, Knapp

• 1:32:02Scott Tolinski?

  here. So the idea here is that it is a templating language that outputs Markdown, which feels

• 1:32:09Wes Bos?

  Oh, my gosh. How many days have we gone where somebody has like messed with the Markdown spec again?

• 1:32:17Scott Tolinski?

  Well, this is being, this is being used in, and it has been being used in Obsidian. So this is just made available. So this is the thing that powers Obsidian. But yes, again, it is, it basically template in Markdown out, and data goes in with your template. And somebody did make a translation that can output this. You remember that, what was it called? CoMark? Somebody did make a CoMark nap, so you could take nap and output it as React or Svelte or viewer, any of that stuff as well. So as it starts templating languages go, honestly, it looks nice. I like a good templating language.

• 1:32:50Wes Bos?

  Looks like Liquid. I hate Liquid so much. No thanks.

• 1:32:54Scott Tolinski?

  Yes, yeah, I like it. Am I going to use this? Probably not. I don't know. But it's used in Obsidian. So it's not like it's one of those things that's just going to be here and gone tomorrow.

• 1:33:04Wes Bos?

  Yeah, it's not like a vibe coded templating language.

• 1:33:07Scott Tolinski?

  Exactly. Yeah. So if you're looking for a templating language to output Markdown, check out knapp.app or .md, knapp.md. Yes.

• 1:33:20Wes Bos?

  Well, all right. Anything else? Should we wrap it up?

• 1:33:23Scott Tolinski?

  Let's wrap it up. I've got some Thai food sitting right here. I'm just been staring at for about an hour.

• 1:33:27Wes Bos?

  All right. Thanks, everybody for tuning in. We'll catch you later. Peace.

• 1:33:31Scott Tolinski?

  Peace.