Efficiency v. Democracy

Today we were going to explore how "big tech" has woven itself into the fabric of the Trump administration. But after a conversation with Allison Stanger, professor at Middlebury College, we decided to focus exclusively on Elon Musk and his relationship with Donald Trump. What is DOGE, the "Department of Governmental Efficiency?" And while we're at it, what is efficiency anyways? Has DOGE saved Americans any money? What information of ours are they trying to access? And is there any chance they've already succeeded? CLICK HERE: Visit our website to see all of our episodes, donate to the podcast, sign up for our newsletter, get free educational materials, and more! To see Civics 101 in book form, check out A User's Guide to Democracy: How America Works by Hannah McCarthy and Nick Capodice, featuring illustrations by Tom Toro. Check out our other weekly NHPR podcast, Outside/In - we think you'll love it! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now streaming on Paramount Plus. I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you. You're having a midlife crisis. I'm not ready for this. He's back. I'm older. I'm wiser. And sharper than ever. Things are gonna get messy. But if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything. Dexter Resurrection. New season now streaming on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan.

• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  It's getting chilly outside. But you know what that means?

• 1:05Speaker 02

  It's time to cozy up with Panera Bread. Let's get toasty, cheesy. Oh, hello, broccoli cheddar soup in a bread bowl. How about melty? Okay, Chipotle Chicken Avo Melt. It's dipping bread in soupy goodness season. Oh, yeah, we are so back. It's Panera season. Order now.

• 1:28Hannah McCarthy?

  Hannah?

• 1:29Nick Capodice?

  Nick.

• 1:29Hannah McCarthy?

  Civics 101.

• 1:31Nick Capodice?

  It sure is.

• 1:32Hannah McCarthy?

  It sure is. And today, well, I have a 101 of a different color, Nick.

• 1:40Nick Capodice?

  A different color, like, like a horse of a different color?

• 1:43Hannah McCarthy?

  Yes, which, by the way, is an idiom that I thought came exclusively from The Wizard of Oz, until I fact-checked it for this episode.

• 1:51Nick Capodice?

  Hannah, we just don't know what we don't know.

• 1:55Hannah McCarthy?

  Which actually leads nicely into today's episode, talking about what we don't know. Because the original goal of this episode today was to talk about the tech industry and the executive branch.

• 2:07Nick Capodice?

  So, big tech. Right? Like the fact that there were a bunch of tech giants at the inauguration. Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos sitting where the president's family or former presidents usually sit.

• 2:20Speaker 05

  Sitting with Meta's Mark Zuckerberg, Amazon's Jeff Bezos and Google's Sundar Pichai, the billionaires seated in the first row in front of some cabinet nominees.

• 2:33Nick Capodice?

  And a bunch of executive orders that have to do with AI and social media and tech regulations.

• 2:39Hannah McCarthy?

  Right. And the idea here was, you know, like, how did big tech get all involved with this administration if indeed they are? But here's the thing.

• 2:49Speaker 06

  It's not the involvement of big tech per se, but it is the involvement of one particular tech superstar.

• 2:59Nick Capodice?

  Elon Musk. Elon Musk. Elon Musk. Elon Musk. Elon Musk.

• 3:04Speaker 06

  Elon Musk.

• 3:09Nick Capodice?

  Are we doing this?

• 3:11Hannah McCarthy?

  Oh, we're doing this. This is Allison Stanger.

• 3:14Speaker 06

  I'm Middlebury Distinguished Endowed Professor, but I also have a whole range of other titles.

• 3:20Hannah McCarthy?

  Allison's other titles, by the way, include?

• 3:22Speaker 06

  Co-director of the Getting Plurality Research Network, faculty affiliate of the Berkman Klein Center, visiting fellow at Stanford's Human-Centered AI Institute, distinguished senior fellow at the Center for Non-Plurification Studies. And what am I leaving out? Oh, I'm an external professor at the Santa Fe Institute.

• 3:38Nick Capodice?

  Oh, Hannah, who has the time?

• 3:40Speaker 06

  I just am interested in everything, and that's a great thing to be at this moment because things are happening so quickly. It allows you to put things together, maybe in a way other people cannot.

• 3:50Hannah McCarthy?

  And today, Nick, Allison puts things together.

• 3:55Speaker 06

  And it's all being done in plain sight.

• 3:59Speaker 06

  Truly unprecedented. It's interesting because a lot of people would say, like, maybe I'm like an ideologue, but I just want to stress here, I'm speaking out because I have tenure and I feel like I'm obligated to just tell the truth. And so everything I'm saying to you is true to the best of my knowledge. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I think it's really important in a highly partisan age to just focus on facts and the truth. And that's what I'm trying to do with my work. And if I'm wrong. I'm happy to be corrected.

• 4:30Nick Capodice?

  OK, so Allison said she is speaking out because she has tenure. Like, literally? As in, she is a professor with a permanent job?

• 4:41Hannah McCarthy?

  Exactly. I once had a college professor, Nick, who said to the class, "Class, I have tenure. And what does that mean? Everything." Now, what does that actually mean? It means that the school where you teach is basically giving you a kind of academic freedom. It means you can research or teach without fear of repercussion or political whims.

• 5:02Nick Capodice?

  So it's kind of like the Supreme Court lifetime appointment?

• 5:06Hannah McCarthy?

  Well, it's kind of like what the Supreme Court lifetime appointment is supposed to be. So Allison feels like she can safely say, "This is what I think is going on with the government," and say it without losing her job. And before we get into this episode, here is what Allison thinks about sharing your perspective as a teacher, because today, we're going to learn some things.

• 5:29Speaker 06

  I believe a classroom should be a place where people are struggling to understand what's true. You know, you can't get to what you believe is true unless you're allowed to speak your mind and not be told what's true. You need to own it. You need to own it for yourself, you know? And it is true that there were a lot of ideological classrooms where faculties were encouraging students to do certain things politically. It's fine if you present it as, "This is what I believe," and you're free to disagree. It's not fine if you're not presenting it that way because because then the student, you know, what are they supposed to do? You have power over them. You're grading them. That's not what a classroom should be, though.

• 6:08Nick Capodice?

  It sounds like Allison understands the power of power.

• 6:12Hannah McCarthy?

  That she does. So this is what she knows, some of what she believes, and you are free to disagree. Because, by the way, Allison has concerns based on what she's seeing and what she knows about power and information. And we're going to share those today, but keep in mind that there is a lot that we don't know, in part because we are talking about something and someone that isn't super clear about what it or they is, are doing.

• 6:43Speaker 06

  I wrote a book called One Nation Under Contract on the privatization of American power, and that was all about how increasingly things we thought of as government functions were in the hands of the private sector. And I talked about some of the potential problems with that trend. Well, this is like privatization and overdrive. You now have both the president and Elon Musk in an unprecedented position where the boundary between the public and the private is blurred. And I think that's intentional for a variety of reasons that benefit both Mr. Musk and President Trump. So it's not like it's some kind of brand new thing. It's just a trend in motion that has gone into overdrive and, in my view,

• 7:28Speaker 06

  has taken us into dangerous territory.

• 7:30Nick Capodice?

  So Hannah, the reason this is a civics 101 of a different color is because we are talking about specific people, two specific people.

• 7:40Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah, and we're talking about what Allison Stanger, as someone who studies this from many, many angles, thinks is going on.

• 7:48Speaker 06

  This isn't about tech, it's about power. And technology has increasingly, over time, come to have an unprecedented amount of power vis a vis the US government. That's another trend in motion. The book I'm currently writing is called Who Elected Big Tech? And again, you know, these trends were in motion, which is why we're not responding as dramatically as we might otherwise. Because in some sense, Americans have worshipped technology. They're, we're really proud of our tech companies, the innovation they inspire. But these innovations also have an impact on how our government works.

• 8:25Nick Capodice?

  Basically, Americans might be more concerned about how technology influences our government if we just didn't love technology so much.

• 8:35Hannah McCarthy?

  Well, technology is amazing. Most of us carry mini computers in our pockets. We can be in constant communication with each other, get a ride anywhere with the tap of a screen, show billions of people the video we took of a beach, get practically any commodity delivered to our door. But there's a lot more to it. And Allison is asking how that impacts our government.

• 9:00Speaker 06

  And in some way, I would say what's really going on here is we have a struggle between our kind of 18th, 19th century political institutions and how you bring them into the digital age. And Musk and Trump are showing you one version of that. I personally think it's a dangerous version if you think democracy is the public good and you think the voice of the people matters. But it's one version.

• 9:23Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, the framers probably didn't envision us all having computers in our pockets. Though they did have their own self-driving cars in a way, Hannah. They were called horses.

• 9:32Hannah McCarthy?

  Okay.

• 9:33Nick Capodice?

  All right. Anyways, Allison says Musk and President Donald Trump are showing us one version of bringing this 250-year-old democracy into the digital age. So what version is that?

• 9:47Hannah McCarthy?

  Well, Allison focused on this idea of efficiency.

• 9:52Speaker 06

  People have this illusion that automating everything is so awesome. This comes out of Silicon Valley because, you know, it's not going to be biased, it's going to be so fast, it's going to be so efficient. And the fact of the matter is, you can also kind of create this Kafkaesque world that we've all been in, where you're like trying to talk to a human being and you're just going around in circles with these chatbots. That, to me, is the feature I envision when everything's been automated. It's one in which, you know, I'm increasingly feeling like a character in Severance, you know? Just elated from everything going on around me. And we don't want to see that. We're so much better than that.

• 10:33Hannah McCarthy?

  We're talking about efficiency, of course, because we currently have a government department dedicated to it.

• 10:39Speaker 06

  As the Department of Government Efficiency proudly proclaims, it's efficient. But efficient is not democratic. Efficient isn't humane. Efficient isn't about the things that bind us one to another, the things that really matter.

• 10:58Nick Capodice?

  Wow. Okay, first, before we get to the Department of Government Efficiency, aka Doge, can we dig into this a little more? Efficiency isn't about what binds us together?

• 11:16Speaker 06

  Most of the things in life that are truly meaningful have nothing to do with efficiency. You know, if we operated the world the way the tech bros think we should operate it, there would be no mothers. There would be no caregivers.

• 11:31Speaker 06

  They celebrate Ayn Rand, you know, the libertarian. The most amazing thing to me about her novels is there's not a single mother in them. The world just keeps reproducing itself and children are taken care of and they grow up without anybody doing it. I happen to believe that there's a lot of human beings who are empathetic and value care for others over efficiency. And that's what makes our life meaningful, you know?

• 12:00Nick Capodice?

  All right, care over efficiency. I can see what Allison means here, that efficiency isn't democratic. You know, it makes me think of what Aziz Hux said about democracy in your episode about constitutional crises, that it's like being a parent. You know, it sure isn't fast or clean and it doesn't always go so great, but you show up every day and you keep doing it.

• 12:25Hannah McCarthy?

  True. It's also frustrating and it can often feel like you're not getting what you want. And we want to get what we want. And to be fair here, there are a lot of people who believe that shaking up the government is the way to do it, to get what we want, stripping it down, cleaning it out, making it more efficient. That's where Doge comes in. So Nick, do you know how Trump created Doge?

• 12:53Nick Capodice?

  I'm gonna guess in executive order. It pretty much just happens.

• 12:58Hannah McCarthy?

  It does. So Doge, which by the way, is also the name of Elon Musk's cryptocurrency derived from a famous dog internet meme. It was born when President Donald Trump renamed the existing United States Digital Service, established by Obama to provide digital consulting to federal agencies, to the United States Doge Service. The USDS is not a particularly well-known service in the government, when it comes to the public at least, but their job has been to make digital government stuff easier for the public to use. Like, they recently simplified the Social Security Administration website and customer satisfaction went up.

• 13:39Nick Capodice?

  People hate a complicated website.

• 13:42Hannah McCarthy?

  They do. Obama created the United States Digital Service after the healthcare.gov rollout. You remember that? Massive flop.

• 13:51Nick Capodice?

  Yeah.

• 13:52Hannah McCarthy?

  So in that same order, where Trump renamed the digital service, the Doge service, he established the US Doge Service Temporary Organization, the thing that Musk is the head of.

• 14:06Nick Capodice?

  So the US Department of Government Efficiency Service Temporary Organization is within the United States Department of Government Efficiency Service? I also think it's interesting, Hannah, that a department devoted to efficiency has a redundant name.

• 14:23Hannah McCarthy?

  That is correct. We've got a little more of that coming up. So then the president told us what Doge was going to be all about.

• 14:31Speaker 07

  Musk and President Trump say Doge's mission is to root out fraud, waste and abuse.

• 14:36Speaker 08

  A new executive order directs government agencies to pursue large-scale cuts, saying they now need hiring approval from Doge.

• 14:43Speaker 09

  Doge has moved to slash programs and the workforce throughout the federal government since Donald Trump took office. More than 100,000 federal employees, mostly probationary, have lost their jobs.

• 14:53Speaker 08

  Massive cuts also announced at the Department of Education, slashing 89 independent research contracts worth nearly $900 million.

• 15:02Nick Capodice?

  All right, so Trump establishes a Doge within a Doge, and the umbrella Doge is about making federal tech better, and the Musk Doge is about firing people and canceling government contracts.

• 15:14Hannah McCarthy?

  That's probably an oversimplification, but it is also not always super clear what the Musk Doge is doing, so I am gonna go with that. I do want to say both the White House and Elon Musk claim that Doge does not have the authority to fire people, that only department heads have that authority.

• 15:34Nick Capodice?

  Even though Musk has posted about people losing their jobs if they don't answer an email.

• 15:39Hannah McCarthy?

  Even though that. We know that Trump has issued presidential actions for workplace optimization and cost efficiency.

• 15:46Nick Capodice?

  Which means what, exactly?

• 15:48Hannah McCarthy?

  Telling agencies to get rid of employees and government contracts, all under the guidance of Doge.

• 15:53Nick Capodice?

  All right, so even if Doge isn't doing the actual firing itself, it sounds like they're a major collaborator.

• 16:00Hannah McCarthy?

  It feels a little to me like those two guys in office space who are finding people to fire.

• 16:06Speaker 10

  Looks like you've been missing a lot of work lately. I wouldn't say I've been missing it, Bob.

• 16:12Hannah McCarthy?

  Those are business consultants. They are there to help the company downsize. Are they formally in charge of signing the papers that lay people off? Probably not, but they're getting people out the door. By the way, there are tons of lawsuits about these firings, and judges are scrutinizing the whole thing and ordering people to be reinstated or to not be laid off at all. But also, yeah, layoffs are still happening.

• 16:37Nick Capodice?

  And the contract thing, what is that?

• 16:40Hannah McCarthy?

  We're gonna get to that, Nick, after a quick break.

• 16:43Nick Capodice?

  But before that break, a reminder that Hannah and I wrote a book that tells you all about how the government supposedly works. And if you know that, you'll know when it's not working like that. It's called A User's Guide to Democracy: How America Works, and you can get it wherever books are sold.

• 17:07Nick Capodice?

  There is nothing quite like having stuff in your closet that you love and you know you can count on for any occasion, except maybe giving someone else that feeling. And this holiday season, Quince is where I'm finding those pieces. Quince makes elevated, everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and it is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories that cut out the middleman, so you get luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag. As this lovely fall is winding to a close and we slouch into winter, I wish more than anything, someone had gifted me a yak wool hoodie.

• 17:51Nick Capodice?

  I'm dead serious. It's good enough for the yak. I mean, it works really well for the yak, right? It would work for me. And it looks hot. So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That available in Canada and the UK as well. And last thing, when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Civics 101. It's the best way to support the show. All right.

• 18:27Nick Capodice?

  Haven't you out there ever Googled your own name? Like, actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing, there are companies called data brokers, whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers, to strangers... Sometimes to people running scams. And once your data's out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where Incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests over and over. So your info doesn't just pop right back up. You set it up once and they keep working in the background.

• 19:12Nick Capodice?

  You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code civics at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.

• 19:31Speaker 11

  Bonjour, compadre. It's the

• 19:35Speaker 11

  how do I negotiate so many great travel deals? My greatest gadget, the Priceline app. It's got hotel deals, flight deals, rental car deals, all of those deals in a bundle. Deals, game day deals, concert trip deals. No one deals more deals than Priceline. Hold your horses, there's more. The app lets you filter hotels by neighborhood, vibe, star level and amenities like pools and spas and beachfronts. Wait, I'm not done. Stop cutting me off.

• 20:05Hannah McCarthy?

  All right, we're back. Before the break, Nick, you asked me about the quote unquote "contract" thing. Because Doge has been terminating government contracts across the administration, something they were empowered to do by a presidential action.

• 20:20Nick Capodice?

  Government contracts, meaning the government goes to a private company and pays them for something.

• 20:24Hannah McCarthy?

  Exactly. Doge has unilateral authority to cancel contracts for all but law and immigration enforcement, homeland security, customs and border protection, immigration and customs enforcement, AKA ICE, and the uniformed services.

• 20:37Nick Capodice?

  And it has, right? It's canceled a ton of them.

• 20:40Hannah McCarthy?

  Well, Doge says it has saved us about $25 billion in canceled or renegotiated contracts. This was as of March 30th. And they have the receipts to prove it. Do you know about the wall of receipts, Nick?

• 20:54Speaker 06

  I just wrote a piece about the wall of receipts?

• 20:57Hannah McCarthy?

  Allison does.

• 20:58Speaker 06

  You just type in doge.gov, it pops up. It's supposed to chronicle all the amazing things they're finding out and the money they're saving. Well, this has been deconstructed, in particular by the New York Times, as being riddled with errors, as misrepresenting what's actually going on.

• 21:15Hannah McCarthy?

  "The purpose of Doge is to find and eliminate fraud and waste in order to save us money." The purpose of the Doge website is to tell us what the government is spending money on and what Doge decided to eliminate to save us that money.

• 21:29Nick Capodice?

  Right, it is supposed to uncover, expose, and eliminate.

• 21:33Speaker 06

  You know, I've written about this a bunch. I'm familiar with how government functions. And I said, "This is really weird because this information is available publicly already."

• 21:41Nick Capodice?

  All the information on the Doge website?

• 21:44Hannah McCarthy?

  Well, the receipts, the wall of receipts, the list of government payments to outside companies, Nick, we have been able to see that all in one place since 2006.

• 21:54Nick Capodice?

  So, the Department of Government Efficiency is doing something the government is already doing.

• 22:00Hannah McCarthy?

  Yeah, it's not lost on me.

• 22:02Nick Capodice?

  Are they doing anything different?

• 22:04Speaker 06

  I don't understand how government payment systems work.

• 22:07Hannah McCarthy?

  Let's talk about the savings receipts. The page on the website that tells America how much money our government is spending on contracts.

• 22:15Speaker 06

  She makes mistakes with the data because it's a live data stream.

• 22:19Hannah McCarthy?

  So Allison gives this example. If you don't understand how contracts and reporting about contracts work, you might get suspicious of a vague-seeming payout.

• 22:29Speaker 06

  So you can go into it one point in time and it'll say, "Contract for $7 million." And if you look at it at that point in time, they'll say, "Wow, $7 million awarded. No receipts. What's going on?" But it's time bound. So if you would go into the same thing a month later, you might see it perfectly reconciled.

• 22:48Hannah McCarthy?

  So someone who understands contracts would know that. It's not clear that the Doge staff does. Sort of like being mad that a Dalmatian puppy is all white because you don't know that Dalmatians are born without spots.

• 23:01Nick Capodice?

  Are you making a 101 Dalmatians reference there, Hannah?

• 23:05Hannah McCarthy?

  I am indeed. It was the only Disney movie I knew growing up. So the wall of receipts, Nick. There's a wall of spending, as in a list of government contracts and awards, and a wall of saving, as in a list of contracts Doge claims to have canceled and money they claim to have saved.

• 23:23Nick Capodice?

  Claim to have.

• 23:24Hannah McCarthy?

  All right, let's try it this way, Nick. I need soup over the next three years. I would like to contract you to make me that soup. I will pay you as I receive the soup. By the end of the three years, you will have made $1,000.

• 23:39Nick Capodice?

  I don't know if that's worth it, Hannah. What kind of soup?

• 23:42Hannah McCarthy?

  But if I tell people today that I've spent $1,000 on soup, that's not true.

• 23:48Nick Capodice?

  It may not be, but I still have not agreed to this.

• 23:50Hannah McCarthy?

  And if I cancel our deal 100 soups in, it's not like I'm getting my 100 bucks back. So if I tell people that I've saved $1,000, that isn't true either.

• 24:01Nick Capodice?

  A dollar per soup? Is this stone soup?

• 24:05Hannah McCarthy?

  It is an example of how people might misunderstand how contracts work and then, you know, publish them on an official government website. Doge has also claimed to have canceled contracts that have already been canceled and not by them, or that have long since been fully paid out. The biggest one on their wall of receipts, 1.9 billion bucks in savings, that was actually canceled by the Biden administration.

• 24:32Nick Capodice?

  Wait, so you said earlier that this information has been public for a while. So what is the other website that we can all go to to learn about government contracts?

• 24:42Speaker 06

  USAspending.gov. It shows you where your taxpayer money is going.

• 24:46Nick Capodice?

  All right.

• 24:50Hannah McCarthy?

  Elon Musk, by the way, is a major beneficiary of government contracts, loans and subsidies.

• 24:56Speaker 06

  He's received about $38 billion from the US government for his companies. He's a very large scale provider of government services, be it launching rocket ships or a whole range of different things.

• 25:10Nick Capodice?

  Has he canceled any of those?

• 25:12Hannah McCarthy?

  No. Okay, so what else is up with Musk and the federal government? On March 20th, Trump signed an executive order ordering agencies to give access to all unclassified data and records to federal officials, quote, designated by the president or agency heads.

• 25:29Nick Capodice?

  Hang on, all unclassified data?

• 25:32Hannah McCarthy?

  All unclassified data, as in private information about just about everyone in the country, and the exception is pretty much national security secrets.

• 25:43Speaker 06

  Think about it. When you fill out your tax return, think about the information that's on that. What can you get from that? You can get the charities you donate to. You can get what your children's names are. You can get your social security number, all these things.

• 25:58Hannah McCarthy?

  Not just your tax forms, by the way. Doge has been trying to access, sometimes successfully, often with legal challenges, databases that have our medical, car, financial, education, employment, immigration, adoption and marriage information, to name a few categories. This is an order that grants access to anyone Trump, quote unquote, designates. Trump also ordered agency heads to facilitate the, quote unquote, consolidation of that information.

• 26:33Nick Capodice?

  Consolidation, as in putting all that information into one place? Like a single database with practically everything the government knows about us?

• 26:42Hannah McCarthy?

  We are not entirely clear on what it will look like, but Musk has said it's that siloed information that leads to fraud, waste and abuse.

• 26:52Speaker 12

  The ways that the government is defrauded is that the computer systems don't talk to each other. So if the computer systems don't talk to each other, then you can exploit that gap. And fraudsters exploit that gap, take advantage.

• 27:07Speaker 06

  If you want to be like Communist China, you should be applauding this wonderful effort to centralize everything in one place under one tech oligarch who has very close ties to the president, who stands to benefit financially as well. There's just enormous conflicts of interest involved.

• 27:24Nick Capodice?

  How would this make us like Communist China?

• 27:27Hannah McCarthy?

  Well, it is literally the system that China uses to surveil its citizens, Russia too. But I do want to be clear. While the word consolidate is in there, the White House has not said whether it plans to create a central database or not, like we said. They say it's about information access and sharing across agencies to crack down on, again, waste, fraud, and abuse. But they have not said how they're specifically going to use that information or how they are going to keep it secure.

• 27:56Speaker 06

  So if they would leak out in any sort of way, that could potentially be damaging for identity theft reasons. So there's a privacy violation. But then there's also it being used in ways to automate all these services that used to have human beings involved, which, on the one hand, you could say, oh, isn't that great? We're becoming more efficient. We're delivering services in a better way. But it's really true that data, when it's that abstract, can often be biased. It can reify or reinforce existing socioeconomic inequalities that are representative of data. There's all sorts of ways it works against the individual.

• 28:40Hannah McCarthy?

  Basically, Allison is wondering how this data might be used as part of the bigger efficiency project of it all. AI is already being rolled out and tested within agencies at the federal level. And we don't know how or whether our data is going to be used in ways that affect our privacy or access to care or safety.

• 29:04Nick Capodice?

  Haven't you out there ever Googled your own name? Like, actually done it? You'll find your address, your phone number, maybe even that police report from the time you went to see Rain Man in the movie theater, but you were underage? Maybe that one's just me. But here's the thing. There are companies called data brokers whose entire business model is collecting your personal information and selling it to advertisers, to strangers, sometimes to people running scams. And once your data's out there, it just keeps circulating. That is where Incogni comes in. Incogni contacts data brokers on your behalf and sends them removal requests over and over, so your info doesn't just pop right back up. You set it up once, and they keep working in the background.

• 29:49Nick Capodice?

  You can even track the progress on a dashboard. And for our listeners, we have an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan. Just go to incogni.com/civics or use the code CIVICS at checkout. There's a link in the episode description. Remember, they can't harm you if they can't find you.

• 30:09Speaker 11

  Bonjour, compadre. It's the

• 30:13Speaker 11

  how do I negotiate so many great travel deals? My greatest gadget, the Priceline app. It's got hotel deals, flight deals, rental car deals, all of those deals in a bundle. Deals, game day deals, concert trip deals. No one deals more deals than Priceline. Hold your horses, there's more. The app lets you filter hotels by neighborhood, vibe, star level, and amenities, like pools and spas and beachfronts. Wait, I'm not done. Stop cutting me off.

• 30:40Nick Capodice?

  On that subject, Hannah, don't we have privacy laws? I mean, in terms of all this information about us being shared across agencies, being consolidated, whatever that means, are we protected somehow already?

• 30:56Hannah McCarthy?

  Actually, the 1974 Privacy Act was designed to do just that. Congress saw how information was used and abused in the Watergate scandal. They knew the government was increasingly using computers to collect and store data, and they passed a law to protect our privacy. Agencies have to disclose when they release our information. They have restrictions about sharing it across the government. And Trump's information sharing executive order might violate this act. Or, you know, it might clarify who is allowed to access and share that information.

• 31:36Nick Capodice?

  AKA whomever he or agency heads designate.

• 31:39Hannah McCarthy?

  If the lawsuits thus far are any indication, we will be hearing what a judge has to say about this in the future.

• 31:46Nick Capodice?

  All right, Hannah, this truly is quite the civics 101 of a different color. Actually, the Wizard of Oz reference really works here because that horse keeps changing color and this civics 101 subject does as well. But here is my question. You said that Trump established Doge as a temporary organization. So does that mean Elon Musk is only temporarily in this position of power?

• 32:13Hannah McCarthy?

  Okay, so yes, the executive order says the Doge within the Doge will be terminated on July 4th, 2026.

• 32:21Nick Capodice?

  Uh huh.

• 32:22Hannah McCarthy?

  And Musk is classified as a special government employee who is only allowed to work 130 days out of the year. However, there is no cap on how many years he can work in this administration. Donald Trump recently said that Musk will have to leave at some point to focus on running his many companies. We just don't know when that will be. But I did ask Allison what she's paying attention to when it comes to Musk's future and whether that has anything to do with our government's future.

• 32:53Speaker 06

  You know, Musk has publicly stated that he would like X to become the everything app.

• 32:58Nick Capodice?

  The everything app. What is that?

• 33:01Hannah McCarthy?

  So it's like, it's everything. It's the thing you use to communicate. So texting, voice, video calls, the thing you use to pay for stuff, the thing you use to shop for stuff, to call a car, order food, turn the heat on in your house, play games, watch movies, make doctor's appointments, even access government services. There already is an everything app, just not in this country.

• 33:29Speaker 06

  We have an example of an everything app. It's called WeChat. And it is something that goes hand in hand with a very authoritarian regime.

• 33:39Speaker 06

  Because when you centralize power in that kind of way,

• 33:43Speaker 06

  it's just ripe for abuse.

• 33:45Nick Capodice?

  So, please allow me to play the fool here, Hannah, because I think I can guess. But aside from sounding like some kind of uncharted monopoly, how is an app like this tied specifically to authoritarianism?

• 34:00Hannah McCarthy?

  Well, in China's case, it is a one-stop shop for government surveillance. It's a central location for user information and activity across a lot, lot, lot of things. We have different laws here in terms of privacy and surveillance and all that. But Allison's point is that an everything app is a risky proposition, especially when the guy who wants to make it and the employees who would help him do that have access to so much of our information right now.

• 34:30Nick Capodice?

  All right, but they're not allowed to use that information to make an everything app, right? I've got to be right on that one.

• 34:37Hannah McCarthy?

  Oh, there are a bunch of laws that would make that almost certainly super illegal. And the White House Press Secretary has firmly denied that that is happening. As did Musk's AI chatbot, Grok 2.

• 34:49Nick Capodice?

  Wait, what?

• 34:50Hannah McCarthy?

  At Politico, asked Grok 2 if it was trained on federal government data obtained by Doge. And Grok 2 said no. No data obtained from the federal government at all.

• 35:00Nick Capodice?

  Well, problem solved. All right. Wait, can AI lie?

• 35:07Hannah McCarthy?

  It is capable of deception, yeah. But Grok 2 was really clear. But Nick, do you know what was less clear?

• 35:15Nick Capodice?

  What?

• 35:16Hannah McCarthy?

  Grok 3. The new Grok.

• 35:19Nick Capodice?

  Oh, come on. This feels like a joke.

• 35:21Hannah McCarthy?

  Politico asked Grok 3 the same question. And Grok 3 replied that it was quote unquote plausible, right? Like plausible that either it or other AI had been trained on federal information obtained by Doge, but that it quote unquote probably wasn't primarily trained that way. Nick, when I asked it, it said, quote, "It seems likely that I was not."

• 35:47Nick Capodice?

  All right, that's, that's a little less wishy washy.

• 35:50Hannah McCarthy?

  Although I suppose it depends on how you define wishy washy.

• 35:53Nick Capodice?

  Yeah, come to think of it, I mean, even the term wishy washy feels a little wishy washy. All right, Hannah, I think there is really just one last thing we need to cover here.

• 36:04Hannah McCarthy?

  Okay.

• 36:05Nick Capodice?

  We've learned a lot. We've learned that there's a lot we don't know. We've learned what one person who does know a lot is thinking about right now. But given all the unknowns, what does Allison think we should be doing right now? You know, us regular people who don't or can't have a finger on the pulse the way she does.

• 36:28Hannah McCarthy?

  All right. So for those who, you know, maybe don't like what they just learned about.

• 36:33Speaker 06

  I think the things we can meaningfully do are also the things that give us meaning. Just stay engaged. Don't run away. Don't hide, even if it's scary. Stay engaged because your government belongs to you. And if there's a clear signal that the majority of the American people are not happy with the current state of affairs, it will change. It exists the way it is because we allow it to be that way. So connect with your friends or, uh, there's not like this one silver bullet. It just takes a lot of people doing what they can to make their voice heard. And people know how to do that. It's best done in community. And it's also highly meaningful to engage with our fellow Americans in that way. So get out there and be a joiner.

• 37:17Nick Capodice?

  You know, Hannah, this is maybe like the fourth or fifth guest who has emphasized that point. Do stuff with other people and talk to them.

• 37:26Hannah McCarthy?

  Oh, yeah. Talk to them. And this next point, I think, is for everybody, whether you love what you've just heard or really don't. Actually, two types of people who really should be talking to each other.

• 37:38Speaker 06

  The most important thing you do is just a thing that makes life fun. Be curious about other people. Instead of recoiling when someone disagrees with you, just ask them why they think that. And listen, I mean genuinely listen to them and think about whether there's some things in your view that might change as a result.

• 37:56Nick Capodice?

  Just maybe, maybe if enough people keep saying that to Civics 101 listeners, it'll start a movement.

• 38:02Hannah McCarthy?

  The listeners who listen.

• 38:04Nick Capodice?

  Yeah. Make it happen, listeners. Listen up.

• 38:08Hannah McCarthy?

  Actually, you can go try it right now because this portion of your listening is done for the day.

• 38:34Hannah McCarthy?

  This episode was produced by me, Hannah McCarthy, with Nick Capodice. Christina Phillips is our senior producer. Rebecca Lavoy is director of on-demand audio. Music in this episode by OTE, Segmental, Ryan James Carr, Arthur Benson, Duke Harrington, and Ava Lo. You can find everything else we have ever made here at Civics 101 at our website, civics101podcast.org. Civics 101 is a production of NHPR, New Hampshire Public Radio.

• 39:13Speaker 10

  Did you know that if your spouse goes missing and you don't tell anyone, that's not necessarily a crime? That surprising fact is at the heart of the brand-new season of Bear Brook, the critically acclaimed true crime podcast from New Hampshire Public Radio. I'm your host, Jason Moon. In this season, Bear Brook investigates another New Hampshire mystery. A Christmas tree farmer with dementia vanishes. His wife never reports him missing. Can he still be found? Don't miss it. Follow Bear Brook wherever you get your podcasts.

• 39:43Speaker 00

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• 40:14Speaker 02

  It's getting chilly outside. But you know what that means?

• 40:20Speaker 02

  It's time to cozy up with Panera Bread. Let's get toasty, cheesy. Oh, hello, broccoli cheddar soup in a bread bowl. How about melty? Okay, Chipotle Chicken Avo Melt. It's dipping bread in soupy goodness season. Oh yeah, we're so back. It's Panera season. Order now.