S1E24: What Lucid Dreaming Reveals About Reality | Talk Tracks

In this mind-expanding episode, Ky Dickens explores the hidden landscapes of consciousness with two leading voices in dream and PSI research. Jungian psychoanalytic psychotherapist Dan Lawrence shares how dreams reveal deep interconnectivity through social dreaming and synchronicity, offering a compelling vision of consciousness as collective and emergent. Then, Michael Raduga, founder of REM Space, introduces us to "the phase" —a state that bridges REM sleep and lucid awareness—and the groundbreaking technologies that allow dreamers to send messages, control devices, and potentially communicate across minds. We also explore how non-speaking individuals might one day use dream-state technology to communicate with loved ones—and how children, unconstrained by materialist thinking, may already hold intuitive access to these states. Plus, we learn how remote dream-based communication could reshape therapy, creativity, and even daily life. From ancient spiritual insights to cutting-edge neuroscience, this episode opens a portal into the future of connection, healing, and human potential. The veil is thinning—and our dreams might just be the next frontier of understanding. _______ Join The Telepathy Tapes Backstage Pass https://thetelepathytapes.supercast.com/ to get ad-free episodes, never-before-heard interviews, behind-the-scenes documentary footage, and access to our private Discord community. This is your invitation to come closer. To help shape what’s next. To be more than a listener… to be a co-creator of this paradigm shift. So if you’ve felt moved, if you’ve felt seen, if you’ve felt the call, subscribe today and join us: thetelepathytapes.com. https://thetelepathytapes.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ky Dickens?

  Life is all about making decisions. Sometimes you make questionable ones, like buying a new TV that's too big for the wall because the electronics store employee was a little too good at their job. Then sometimes you make great ones, like protecting your home and auto with Progressive. You get customized coverage options so you can be sure you have the right coverage for you, along with 24/7 claim support and great customer service. So when you think about it, that's like four great decisions. That more than makes up for the TV debacle. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.

• 0:33Ky Dickens?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Kai Dickens, and I'm thrilled to welcome you to The Talk Tracks. In this series, we dive deeper into the revelations, challenges, and unexpected truths from the telepathy tapes. The goal is to explore all the threads that weave together our understanding of reality, science, spirituality, and yes, even unexplained things like psi abilities. If you haven't yet listened to season one of the telepathy tapes, I encourage you to start there. It lays the foundation for everything we'll be exploring in this journey. We'll feature conversations with groundbreaking researchers, thinkers, non-speakers, and experiencers who illuminate the extraordinary connections that may defy explanation today, but won't for long.

• 1:16Ky Dickens?

  On today's episode of The Talk Tracks, we're talking to two experts exploring different phenomena, both working in the fields of consciousness and dreams. First, we meet Dan Lawrence, a Jungian psychoanalytic psychotherapist, whose work in understanding the subconscious and human interconnectivity are explored through experiences called social dreaming. And then we speak with Michael Raduga, CEO and the founder of REM Space, a research center developing amazing, emerging technologies related to sleep paralysis, lucid dreams, and out-of-body experiences that will expand our understanding of the potential of consciousness and reshape our future. And now, we welcome Dan Lawrence to The Talk Tracks. So, Dan, to start, why don't you introduce yourself and let us know how you fell into this very unique line of work?

• 2:03Speaker 01

  I I live in rural South Devon, in the southwest of England, with my wife and three children, and I live in a very quiet place down an unmade track, which is perfect for the kind of work that I do. A Jungian psychotherapist, but I'm very much at the intuitive end of things. Bizarrely, my first career was on the stock market in in London. I was a futures trader on the Life Exchange. And I think if you look back at thread, even then, I was very curious about patterns, the patterns behind the data that was in front of me. And I was part of a a small group of people down there on the stock market that would pay attention to dreams and use dreams as a kind of technology, as a a way of kind

• 2:46Speaker 01

  of getting behind the the initial kind of data of things and seeing if we can spot other trends in that sense. But at some point, I had a vision of Christ in my early twenties, and it took me two or three years to really kind of get my head around that. And at which point I left trading and I considered priesthood training and monastic training and eventually settled upon a Jungian training as a kind of response to this vision and this much longer thread in my life, which included lots of side phenomena and a kind of intuition-led experience, really. So now I I'm in private practice. I work with people internationally, online, but I also work with organizations and groups

• 3:30Speaker 01

  using methodology like social dreaming, kind of. Really, what I'm curious about is helping people to be curious about unconscious communication and thinking about what's emerging out of that layer of mind that is connected and has an objective quality to it, has something to say to us, really. So I think more than anything, I'm a phenomenologist, really. I'm I'm interested in objectively studying people's subjective experience, but also getting behind the curtain in things, too.

• 4:01Ky Dickens?

  Yeah, and maybe, Dan, you can just explain what being a Jungian psychotherapist means. And I think a lot of people might not even know what the term Jungian refers to.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Kao Young was a contemporary of Freud, Sigmund Freud, at the time. And in fact, at one point, he was kind of earmarked as the successor to Freud, by Freud, but that had quite a falling out. Freud's vision was that we have this unconscious, this unknown in us. But often, it's very personal and it's what's repressed and maybe what we can't feel that we can think about, or it's stuff that feels taboo to us. Whereas Young took a different tack and he really, through his own experiences too, was very interested in the idea that beyond what we can know, there is another reality, what we might call a transpsychic reality, that brings in notions of the collective unconscious and this purpose in the unconscious that it's something that we can listen to and it has something to say in our life.

• 4:57Ky Dickens?

  And then I wonder if you can explain Young's theory around synchronicity and how it helps us understand interconnectivity and just shared experiences. You know, how does this kind of relate back to Young and the framework he built?

• 5:10Speaker 01

  So Young called synchronicity an a-causal connecting principle. So it's things that are connected, but not in a causal way. So you might have two or more independent events with no causal connection whatsoever, but yet they're connected by a meaning. So I'll give you an example, in fact, a personal example just recently. So I was speaking recently to a guy called Peter, who's in Australia. He's a retired psychologist, but also someone with a very well-developed psychic faculty. And that's formed the bedrock to his career over many years. He wrote a really good book called The Way of A.C. And we were on an audio call, WhatsApp audio call.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  And whilst I was listening to Peter kind of talking about kind of various aspects of his experience, my attention split. And it's like my attention detached from my body and started to hover around the room and move across the room. And it just so happened that there was a pile of books in the corner of the room that my wife had thrown in there earlier that day because she was fed up with me filling the house with books everywhere. And so I kind of followed my attention across the room and I walked across and I just randomly picked one of these books out and laid it on the desk and just opened it on the page that felt right. So as Peter was talking to me, I started to scan read this page. And it was a letter, the, the book was a collection of letters of private correspondence

• 6:35Speaker 01

  between Jung, Carl Jung, and other people in the forties. And it's a book that I probably haven't picked up for ten or fifteen years. And it was a letter from Jung to a psychiatrist in the forties called Lawrence Bende. So I'm reading this, I'm thinking, when Peter stops talking, I'll say to him, hey, Peter, my, my attention is split and I've opened this book here, I wonder how this connects. But before I could, Peter said, oh, before I forget, it's just popped into my mind that there's this really obscure book that you should read, Dan. It's called Paranormal Cognition by Lawrence Bende. I don't know if you've ever heard of him. So that's a classic synchronicity, that the meaning, there's a meaningful connection between me kind of approaching that book, opening on that page, and it popping also

• 7:18Speaker 01

  into Peter's mind, but there's no causal connection between. And of course, as you start to pay attention to synchronicities, they tend to happen more. Everybody, I tend to ask, has an example of some point in their life where something uncanny and meaningful is connected.

• 7:35Ky Dickens?

  And what's your explanation for that? I mean, do you think it is that we're all entangled in some way? Or do you think that there's this like huge collective conscious that's just all around us that we can all tap into? Or is it a form of telepathy that you were sending a thought to him?

• 7:52Speaker 01

  In terms of explaining synchronicity, I really appealed to Jung. And Jung had this notion of trans psychic reality, which is this kind of underbet to what we can perceive through our minds. And this trans psychic reality is where mind and matter collapse into one. It's a kind of unitary existence. But it's this single reality in which past, present and future are collapsed into this timeless unity. One way of thinking about synchronicity is thinking about it as a language of the field in a way. And this is the idea that field comes before form, that there is the only ultimate reality, the only things that are real is field, but we experience life as form.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  So Théard de Chardin, the Catholic priest and philosopher, said that, that matter is spirit moving slow enough to be seen. So there is this idea that ultimate reality is spirit. And that we experience it, the only way that we can experience it is through time and place. And through these fields condensing into matter momentarily. But underlying that, and this is where psi phenomena comes from. And this aligns with, I think, a lot of the material that you've come across in these brilliant young minds in telepathy tapes. Is that ultimately what they're in touch with is this underlying reality, which is spirit.

• 9:13Ky Dickens?

  What I love about the field theory is in episode six of the telepathy tapes, we really try to look at. How to explain something like telepathy or psi abilities in the context of our reality. And one of the metaphors I used was, you know, right now, within the materialist paradigm, consciousness is at the tippy tip of the pyramid. And we can't explain why or how it comes from, but if if we think of consciousness as the base of the pyramid, the first, the most original, the. The most real and the material world grew up from it. Then we can account for psi phenomenon because essentially our whole world is mental more than it is physical. I mean, does that track with what you're saying regarding field theory?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely tracks. That's the starting point for sure. And I think, I think what's so exciting. About the telepathy tapes and the incredible success that it's had, it just caught the imagination. Is because to use another, another of Jung's kind of theories of innantia dromia, which is this underlying idea. That the the deeper reality, the field provides when. When at a collective level, we swing too far one way into one polarity of an idea, i.e. materialism. Or a mechanistic worldview. That we are provided by it by the field, by this kind of deep psyche, a compensation. And that compensation carries this kind of swing to the other polarity.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  And here it is emerging at a time when we possibly really need it, we still, we really need to be. As a collective race back in touch with the idea that we're all interconnected, the idea that actually spirit is at the root of things.

• 10:52Ky Dickens?

  So imagine you were talking to one of your kids, maybe, I don't know if you have a child around like ten, let's say ten or eleven. And you were to explain to them what social dreaming is, how, how you do this, you know, what daddy does for a living, what you can achieve out of it, like, how would you explain it to the youngest, you know, a young child? What social dreaming is, why people do it, how it works?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  So, social dreaming is a way of spending some time with the connective part of dreams. Really, so, and dreams, of course, you can think of dreams as almost like the, the soil of our thinking. So you might think of dreams as nighttime thinking, as this kind of proto-thinking before thoughts become real. So when we pay attention to dreams, they have this lovely way of telling a story to us that gets around the way that we see the world usually. So often, if we have a certain attitude towards something, then the dream might offer us a, an opposite view of things. Now, what we discover when we dream together and that we share those dreams together is that there are little connections and little links between them.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  So there's two things that can happen when we start to engage in social dreaming. First one is that you might think new thoughts. So, so companies or organizations might engage someone like me to do some social dreaming with them because they feel like they're stuck in being able to innovate and, and kind of think new thoughts. And social dreaming might, might allow for these new connections to be made and these new ideas to pop up out of the soil, like little kind of green shoots. The real magic in social dreaming is this crackle in the room when people understand that they are connected at a level that goes well beyond their personal identity. And so you might have a group of people that have worked alongside each other seven, eight, 10 hours a day on projects and they think they know something about each other.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  And suddenly, they have this new level of connection, new level of intimacy that changes the whole feeling in the room. And people really start to lean into each other in a new way. That's the real magic in social dreaming.

• 13:00Ky Dickens?

  One of my favorite things about the holidays is having an excuse to slow down, curl up on the couch and get cozy. And lately, everyone in our house has been fighting over our Lola blankets. If you haven't felt one, they're ridiculously soft. They're made with this luxurious faux fur that has just the right amount of stretch. And our rescue dogs, Remy and Rue, have decided that the blankets belong to them. Which is why I love that Lola now makes an entire collection just for pets. They have blankets, beds and pads, all designed with that same incredible softness. Their pet bed even has an orthopedic foam base and a removable, machine washable cover. So for someone with a house full of animals and kids, I appreciate that the regular blankets are machine washable too. And they make such great holiday gifts because they're something people will actually use and love. And if you're shopping for someone

• 13:45Ky Dickens?

  who treats their dog like another member of their family, Lola has you covered there too. For a limited time, our listeners can get 35% off select Lola blanket products with code TAPES at checkout. Just head to LolaBlankets.com and use code TAPES to get 35% off your order. After you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola blankets. This episode of The Telepathy Tapes is brought to you by Alloy Health. Here's something we don't hear enough about. The skin changes that show up in your 40s can be hormonal. Estrogen helps maintain collagen, support elasticity, and keep skin hydrated. As it declines, skin can become thinner, drier, and more sensitive. What I appreciate about Alloy is that they're paying attention to those changes and giving women options designed with this stage of life in mind.

• 14:29Ky Dickens?

  You've heard me talk about M4 skincare from Alloy, made specifically for estrogen deficient skin. Now they've added two new prescription treatments. Copper Peptide Cream RX is made for women in perimenopause and beyond. It helps smooth the skin on your face and neck, improve firmness, and visibly reduce redness and flushing. Their Hyperpigmentation Treatment RX is a three-in-one cream for your face and chest. It helps fade dark spots, sunspots, and uneven patches by targeting overactive pigment cells while leaving your normal skin tone alone. You start with a simple online form. A physician reviews your information and prescribes what is right for your skin. Once approved, your prescription ships straight to your door. No pharmacy. It is truly amazing and has changed my life. Try Alloy's new prescription treatments. Peptide Cream RX and Hyperpigmentation Treatment RX or add them to your M4 routine.

• 15:14Ky Dickens?

  Head to myalloy.com and use the code TAPES to get 20% off your first order. Your menopause specialized doctor will help you build a skincare plan for your needs. Plus, you get $0 unlimited messaging with your doctor. Head to myalloy.com and use code TAPES to get 20% off your first order. This code is valid on products only. These are compounded products not subject to FDA approval. When you say when dreams connect with other people, can you tell me about like how that happens? What that looks like, how you know it's happening?

• 15:46Speaker 01

  So an example, I once hosted a social dreaming session for about 80 doctors in the southwest of England. So they were on a kind of conference day and I was there to to give them the experience of social dreaming. It was a one day conference for GPs to meet up, you know, from a very vast area. They weren't coworkers, so they lived and worked in the southwest, but probably about 100 miles away from each other. So I don't know if they'd ever met before, but they they were doctors who were working in completely different surgeries in completely different areas of the southwest. As you might imagine, these these doctors kind of sat there with their arms crossed thinking, what do you mean we're going to share our dreams? What do you mean that's got a point to it? But the very first dream, someone kind of shared a dream and they said, last night I dreamt that my parents were lost in India.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  And in the dream, they were lost in rural India. They didn't know where they were and they were panicking. They're in this really panicked state. And in the dream, I was starting to panic and I had to try and work out where they were using maps and trying to use technology. And there was this kind of air of if I don't find out where they are, they might run out of food and water and sustenance and and I will be responsible in some way. And as that first dream was spoken by someone right in the kind of right hand side of the room, across the other side to the left hand side of the room, someone gasped and stood up and said, oh, my God, last night my parents called me from India, they're traveling at the moment and they were in rural India and they were lost and they were really worried and I had to triangulate their location.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  I had to contact the hotel. And luckily, the hotel were able, over the course of two or three hours, to send someone out and find them and recover them. And they're very elderly, they're in their eighties, and it was a really kind of distressing experience. And this might sound kind of, you know, bizarre or uncanny, but the, these are the kind of things that happen when you're doing depth work with people and you're allowing for that as a, as a phenomenon.

• 17:42Ky Dickens?

  So with social dreaming, you know, you might kind of be hired or whatever to set an intention for a certain group, if you will, like, this is the thing we're, thing we're trying to solve, or the question we're trying to answer, the, this is the group involved. Then there's sort of a timeframe set, and then you kind of get back together and discuss the dreams, like a week later? Is it kind of every night then, once this container or this intention is set?

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Okay, so in a social dreaming session, you, it's two part. So the first part is called the social dreaming matrix. And the use of the word matrix is deliberate, because matrix comes from the Latin root for the word uterus. So it has this generative kind of quality about it. And you, you might have this kind of session where people are sharing dreams, they're sharing each other's associations and thoughts and images to each other's dreams. And the focus is on the dream and not the dreamer. So we're very used to, in Western society, hearing someone say a dream and starting to think about that dream in relation to that person, in relation to the dreamer. In social dreaming, the focus is on the dream

• 18:47Speaker 01

  itself as a social commentary, as something about this group of people, or the tasks that they're working on, or even kind of wider culture and, and reality. And then after the matrix session, you then might have a, a dialogue session, where you make sense of the different themes that emerge, the images, the connections between the dreams, and then you ground that in the reality of what's going on right now. Because one thing about Jungian work, especially

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Is you have a thought in both camps, you're both, you're both valuing kind of phenomenal reality and you know, what's, what's material right now, people's lives, their grounded bodies and their lives, but also you're paying attention in equal measure to that which is more spiritual, more psychical, more emergent, you know, less clear.

• 19:36Ky Dickens?

  And I think to end on that note, you know, what do you think, I mean, just through this almost collective awakening we're seeing, and I don't think it's just the telepathy tapes, I think there's a lot just sort of all converging right now, where people do seem open, open and, and more interested in exploring these ideas that have been around for millennia, but might have just been on pause or forgotten about for the past few hundred years, you know? Do you think there's going to be new ways of thinking that emerge about human potential and spirituality and connection, you know, are you hopeful, where do you see, where do you see us as hu- humans right now in this quest? Like, do you think that we used to be more in touch with this? We dipped out a little bit because we became very scientific and

• 20:18Ky Dickens?

  material based, and now we're kind of starting to edge back to it? And, and so what do you, where do you think we are and what's our future?

• 20:24Speaker 01

  I think this is a pendulum sweep, really, in our collective potential notion of reality and our connectedness to that. So I think we have swung too far towards a materialist standpoint. I think the emergence and people like Michael Conforti and the brilliant work around connecting new physics with studies of nature and ethology and patterns and Jungian work and dreams and, and being able to translate dreams in a way that connects us with this larger reality. I have real hope also with young people, actually, because I think in many ways, I feel, I feel very sorry for young people right now, growing up as a young person in this particular culture, because a lot of their dreaming is done for them.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  And we've lost the art of looking inwards and taking our dreams seriously and then come to life in us. So one of the, the joys that I have as a Jungian psychotherapist is working with young people, actually, working with people often between the ages of, say, sixteen and twenty-five, that kind of adolescent, young adulthood. And seeing the penny drop, that they have this technology that is their own, that is this inner life, that is lively, just like Jung, they can pay attention to these figures and it has something to say, they don't have to find that on TikTok or they don't have to be told about it, you know, that there is there is this inner life that is that is emerging and fluid and has so much to say to them, both about their own life

• 21:51Speaker 01

  and about the potential in human reality. I have a favourite phrase that I often hear myself kind of repeat to people that I work with that is approaching all of this kind of phenomena with the preface in your mind of, I had a dream that. So if we if we were to apply that phrase to everything that we do, so Sam to meet new client and they're a little bit late for a session.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  And they say, I I I arrived a little bit late because I was trying to get parked and someone took my parking space. I invite them immediately to think, okay, so let's say you had a dream that that happened. I had a dream that someone took my parking space. What would that mean to you? And it enables us just to get, you know, into a more fluid state of mind and to really begin to listen to not just the the kind of nighttime dreaming, not just things like uncanny phenomena and synchronicity and telepathy and sci phenomena. But also the very mundane things that happen in our lives, because it helps people to get in touch with this field like dream like quality of things. And so I I think that connects with

• 23:00Speaker 01

  the invitation of non speakers in the telepathy tapes. I get the sense that they are much more in touch than the rest of us with with that dream like quality and that field like quality of life and they have so much to teach us and and we have a unique potential invitation in time in in order of what's coming through in the telepathy tapes and the wider community.

• 23:23Ky Dickens?

  There's nothing quite like having pieces in your closet that you love and know you can count on for any occasion, except maybe giving someone else that same feeling. This holiday season, Quince is where I'm finding those pieces. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and premium stretch denim. Quince also has gifts that keep giving all season long, like their high-quality down outerwear and cozy cashmere gloves and scarves. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag. My closet is stacked with their clothes, but recently I've discovered their jewelry, and I love their 14-karat gold diamond bezel station bracelet. It's beautiful

• 24:06Ky Dickens?

  and slight, and more than 50% off what you'd pay retail. And when it comes to gifting, Quince has a lot more than clothing. Think leather bags, hotel-quality bedding, chef-grade cookware, and five-star luggage. Basically, plenty of ways to find something special for everyone on your list. Give the gift of quality this season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the telepathy tapes. It's the best way to support our show. You know those little things that keep getting pushed to the bottom of your to-do list? If getting new glasses is one of them, Zenni makes it easy. I have so many pairs of glasses, sunglasses, readers, transition lenses, and all of them are prescription. I love having

• 24:51Ky Dickens?

  different options for whatever I'm doing. And honestly, I couldn't have all these pairs if it weren't for Zenni. Zenni is an online eyewear shop with stylish prescription glasses and customizable lens options, with frames starting at under $30. Typically, a pair of glasses can cost a few hundred dollars, and when you add on special features, it skyrockets above that. With virtual try-on, you can see how frames look before you order. Just find a pair you love, enter your prescription, customize your lenses, and have them shipped right to your door. Check new glasses off your list today with Zenni. Go to zenni.com/podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off, plus free shipping over $65. Sales sell out, so don't wait. That's z-e-n-n-i dot com slash podcast, promo code PODCAST15. Zenni dot

• 25:36Ky Dickens?

  com slash podcast, code PODCAST15.

• 25:40Ky Dickens?

  So as fascinating as that was, let's turn to the future landscape of consciousness and dreams as we speak with Michael Reduga. Michael is a world-renowned researcher, educator, and author in the field of out-of-body experiences, lucid dreaming, and altered states of consciousness. As the founder of the Phase Research Center, Michael has dedicated his career to understanding and teaching practical methods for accessing the phase, a state that bridges the waking and dreaming worlds. His techniques are being practiced by thousands who are curious about the intersection of consciousness, reality, and human potential. So whether you're a skeptic or a believer, Michael's insights promise to challenge your perceptions and offer new ways of thinking about the mind's untapped abilities. So Michael, thank you so much for being here.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Thank you for inviting. I will be glad to share everything I know.

• 26:30Ky Dickens?

  What initially sparked your interest in out-of-body experiences and altered states of consciousness?

• 26:35Speaker 02

  When I was a teenager, I was around 16 years old. I had periodic paralysis and other related phenomena. I was 16 years old. I had no idea about phenomena like this. I woke up and I felt that I could move. And the first thing you think about that you are dying. Then suddenly, I recalled all those stories about alien abductions. Because when I watched those movies or read those books, almost all alien abduction happened at night. I thought aliens were trying to abduct me, something like this.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  So I flew through the window outside, and then I suddenly wake up. Suddenly, I found myself in the bed. I thought that those aliens, they just erased my memory. That is why I couldn't recall what happens after limitation. But when analyzed, it became clear that there were no aliens.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  It was something else. But all those qualities of that first experience was so amazing. Even though I was scared to death. During the experience, I wanted to to experience it over and over again. Because I knew that it was the most interesting, the most amazing thing I could ever imagine. So I dedicated my life to this topic uh from very early age.

• 28:13Ky Dickens?

  So after this this first experience, did were you able to effortlessly go back into this type of lucid dream? Or did it was it dependent on sleep paralysis for you in the beginning?

• 28:24Speaker 02

  At the beginning, yes, it happens almost exclusively after sleep paralysis. But very quickly I realized that it could happen in a different way. For example, I could become conscious while dreaming. So I would understand that I was in a dream. Then it became clear that I could control it. I mean, I could induce it somehow. So we are talking about a phenomenon when we have consciousness during REM sleep. During REM sleep, usually we see vivid dreams. Most of our dreams happen during REM sleep. It takes vivid dreams. And when you have consciousness, full understanding of what's going on during REM sleep,

• 29:08Speaker 02

  you experience exactly the same reality as you experience right now. But it is not real world, of course, it's not a parallel world or anything like this. This world is created directly in your brain. And your sensations, your perceptions are exactly the same as you experience right now. So imagine that right now you are in a lucid dream. In your sensations, all your perceptions would be exactly the same. But there's a small difference.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Now you don't have any physical limitations.

• 29:45Ky Dickens?

  Wow, that's amazing. And, you know, is it tied at all to out-of-body experiences? Or is that something completely different? I mean, do you feel like your consciousness is going somewhere else? Or is it just an overactive mind? And you're able to participate in that narrative that your mind is creating?

• 30:02Speaker 02

  That is why we have this word, this term, the free state. The reason is that when we talk about lucid dreams, actually, we are talking, it's a well-known fact that we are talking about REM sleep plus consciousness. When we talk about sleep paralysis, it's a well-known scientific fact that we talk about REM sleep plus consciousness. Initially, I thought that all those states were different. But eventually, with practice, with experiments, came clear that all those phenomena had the same root. And that is why we needed a new word to unite them.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  The free state unites any situation when you have consciousness during REM sleep.

• 30:51Ky Dickens?

  So when it comes to people who are in a lucid dream, you know, you think about ancestral communities who say they go into lucid dreams and then we'll talk to other chiefs or, you know, other hunters to let them know where something is. You know, what is going on there? Like, is it possible for two consciousnesses to connect when they're in lucid sleep? Or are you saying that all of that is just imagined in our brain?

• 31:14Speaker 02

  I tried this many, many times. And because I have met hundreds and thousands of lucid dreamers in my life, with different points of views, with different hypotheses, nobody was able to prove that direct communication is possible. But if we use technology, for example, like this from our laboratory, we can connect people in dreams. But it is a little bit more complex because it requires the internet, it requires servers, but we can do this.

• 31:51Ky Dickens?

  Okay, so how does that work? And just to explain it, so it looks like a metal box with cords plugged in and three different sides. And then does it connect to your head?

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is EEG. You just read brainwaves, specific brainwaves. It is. EOG, you trace eye movements during sleep. For example, this is EMG. You trace sleep paralysis, when body is paralyzed, and so on and so on. And when experienced lucid dreamers sleep with this device, we can remotely, from our laboratory, trace what's going on. Our server knows when they are asleep. Our server knows when they are in a lucid dream. And we can read some signals from lucid dreamers.

• 32:42Speaker 02

  And they can send signals from inside their dreams to our server, using EMG sensors or eye movements. Why is it possible? Even during sleep paralysis, there's small electrical activity in our muscles.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  And when we put EMG sensors on the muscles, we can easily see, for example, when you are talking in your dreams. We can easily see that you are moving or you're doing something by your hands or you're walking, using our sensors. And also, we can send signals to you. For example, via tones, earbuds, or lights. This device can do this.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  As a result, we can remotely connect to people's dreams and send to them simple signals and read their replies. So that's how it all works very quickly.

• 33:40Ky Dickens?

  So just to understand what's possible. So it's possible to track what's going on in someone's dreams and it's possible for you to give input to those dreams. But you might be able to see a hand is moving, but you wouldn't necessarily... Is the technology to the point where you could see if they were playing tennis versus petting a dog or something with their hand?

• 33:57Speaker 02

  We cannot know any specific moments. In theory, we can do this. Just wait a little bit, one year or more, and we could be able to understand some...

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Details about their dreams. Right now, we can, we can know only that they move a certain part of their body or they pronounce certain sounds. But this technology evolves very quickly, meaning that eventually we will be able to read any language, any words from your dream, from your sleep. It is achievable, it's just very complex and expensive, but it's just a matter of time when this technology will appear in our life.

• 34:39Ky Dickens?

  You know, as far as measuring that type of thing, you know, what's, what would be the benefit to it, you know, and I wonder if there's a benefit if someone was in a coma or something to know if they were dreaming or what they're dreaming about. Uh, you know, but like what, outside of monitoring dreams, um, I guess what's the benefit of, of the technology? Can it help someone get into lucid dreaming or is it to help people dream together?

• 35:05Speaker 02

  We are working in this direction as well, trying to develop technology which would allow you to experience lucid dreams without any effort. Because right now, even though you can achieve it, but it requires knowledge, practice, it's hard. This technology, I mean, communicating with asleep people, sooner or later, there, there will be technology which will allow people to induce lucid dreams easily. And then at the next step, they will need to share information between each other. Or for example, you have seen something interesting and useful in your dreams and you can transfer this information in real time from your dreams.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  A couple of years ago, we were able to transfer music from lucid dreams, people melodies from lucid dreams. We're able to control smart home for lucid dreams, switching off and on lights or radio or electrical kettle from dreams. Just recently, we have accomplished another study where we're controlling this remote control car from dreams. We were controlling it, avoiding obstacles from dreams. And we need this technology to connect.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  People from dreams between each other and with the internets. Because, for example, right now, we are communicating via internet, we see each other. But if we, we could do this, if we could do this in REM sleep, we could, could just sit somewhere, anywhere, for example, in Paris, talking to each other with full sensations, not just screaming. It would feel as if we would see each other. So we need technology to connect dream worlds, and that's what we are doing.

• 36:56Ky Dickens?

  Wow. So, Michael, I just want to back up because you said two really fascinating things. So let's say you and I, in our REM, in our lucid dream, would decide to meet in Paris. So if, if we both went there and then the next day when we woke up, we would, it should, we would be able to explain the same words that we said, the same conversation. Okay, so it's like you are experiencing that with someone. And then you said, in this lucid dream state, you've tested this and people were able to control their smart devices. Do you mean from their dream, they could turn off, turn off something? Or like physically, they did not have to wake up?

• 37:31Speaker 02

  For example, you, you must strain this particular muscle. And you know that when you strain this muscle, the car goes forward. And in your dream, you know that you're asleep, but somewhere in reality, maybe in another country, in another city, there's a car, you control it. And when you strain this muscle, you know that the car should move. Once you hear some signals about obstacles, for example, the car has sensors, and once it sees an obstacle, it sends to you signal that there's an obstacle. And you use another hand to make a turn, and then you move forward.

• 38:10Ky Dickens?

  Holy cow. So from a dream, someone can control the physical world?

• 38:13Speaker 02

  Actually, the main points that we connect from our, our software to people who are asleep. And then our software can do anything. We can, we can connect you to, to any technology. Smart home, cars.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  So that is why it's so important because you will be able to store information from dreams, transmitted from dreams in real time. And it is, it is really amazing.

• 38:41Ky Dickens?

  It's interesting that you said about like you could go to Paris in your dreams, let's say. But if you've never been to Paris, how is it gonna look like Paris and you'll like Paris?

• 38:49Speaker 02

  Remember that our subconscious, we can, which can generate forest with all the details, with all the bugs and leaves just in a fraction of seconds, knows in, in much more than we can do when we are away. So even though you may not, we never visited Paris for real, your consciousness knows about Paris so much, subconsciousness, knows about your, about Paris so much that it can generate extremely realistic picture and you won't, you won't notice any difference with the reality.

• 39:32Ky Dickens?

  Gosh, but doesn't that make you wonder how does your subconscious know about Paris? I mean, it's so fascinating.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why sometimes I'm puzzled by the resources of our brain. And when you are in the free state, you understand it immediately. You see your actual resources and you're just shocked

• 39:52Speaker 02

  by how much they are bigger than your abilities in your wakefulness. And that is why it's so important to conquer randomly. Because it will, it will give us a bit access to these incredible resources which are inside of us. Anything could be in our brain, maybe it's something else. But the fact is that we have it and we can control it. And so we will use it a lot in the future.

• 40:24Ky Dickens?

  And then just quickly, based on this Paris conversation, like, are you doing any experiments to see? I mean, can people truly create an accurate? I mean, it sounds like people truly can paint an accurate picture of some places that they've never been, right? Like, is there any research to try to determine if what they're describing when they come back from a place, if it matches reality?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  There are no actual research, but I can pretty accurately predict it. Imagine that both of us right now, we have those devices, those future devices, and we communicate right now in Paris. We are sitting in a cafe, beachfront cafe. We see the Eiffel Tower right now, we're communicating. And when we wake up, when we share our knowledge, if we use technology, what we have shared with each other will be 100% accurate, or maybe 90% accurate. So it will be very accurate. But surrounding could be a little bit different.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  For example, I would see a little bit different cafe than you. So details, other details which are not generated by our server could be completely separate. Even though we share information with each other and the information is accurate, actual perceptions of everything else could be a little bit different. But it is just a feature of this technology. So because we are used to see direct correlation between everything, but realm world, realm space is different.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  And we should keep in mind that some information will be very accurate and some information, especially which is unrelated to your goals, could be completely different.

• 42:19Ky Dickens?

  Gosh, that is unbelievable. So, you know, as far as, you know, things that we explored in the series, like altered states, you know, like could altered states of consciousness, like the phase, as you've coined it, have a role in understanding phenomena like telepathy or psi abilities or clairvoyance? You know, do you think there's a connection at all?

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Of course, I'm pretty sure that the free state is one of the most profound altered states. And of course, it is related to many phenomena. Keep in mind that when you communicate with an object in your dream, actually you talk to your subconsciousness. Because everything is controlled by your subconsciousness. And you can just literally talk and discuss things with your subconsciousness, which is thousands of times more advanced than you. You can obtain information, knowledge, and so on and so on. So there could be so many things unknown that we should be very cautious when we talk about its resources.

• 43:24Ky Dickens?

  So do you think it's possible for a non-speaking individual to connect then with a parent or other people through this technology and dreams to help communicate their desires and thoughts?

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, of course. Because, for example, when we talk about communication and dreams, we are talking about different types of communication. Because right now we are talking and we use sounds. When we start to sleep, we have to rely on something else like brainwaves, like electrical activity of your muscles. It means that you can directly read some information. Eventually, it could be ready, ready to use thoughts or sensations or emotions. And you can transfer them directly without translating into languages.

• 44:17Ky Dickens?

  So that's fascinating. So even though someone might not speak when they're awake, due to what, how the brain, you know, the brain can, you know, just like people can play basketball in their dreams without playing basketball in real life. You could speak in your dreams without being able to speak in waking life. So, so technically, there should be a way that non-speaking individuals should be able to communicate, you're saying, with parents or friends or teachers?

• 44:46Speaker 02

  First of all, it's not only about words. We're used to live in the world where we communicate through letters, languages. But in reality, we just describe our emotions and thoughts.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  If we are able to trace some signals from our brain, we can extract thoughts and emotions directly without translating them into languages. And second thing, actually in partial, it is possible even right now. It's just a matter of resources, time and money to do this. It may look like a sci fi, something impossible for people who don't do things like this, like we do. But it is achievable even right now. It's not about future.

• 45:33Ky Dickens?

  Okay, so, you know, when people, how do you help people enter the phase? From what I've read, you have a technique that's very practical and structured. Could you walk us through the basics of how people get into this phase state?

• 45:44Speaker 02

  There are three primary ways how to induce the phase states. The most hardest one is just when you fall asleep and you try to maintain your consciousness. Trying to fall asleep but keeping your consciousness awake is the hardest one. Second, the most widespread around the world method. It is when you fall asleep with a strong intention to become conscious. Once you see a vivid dream, once you are dreaming and you just fall asleep with this background thinking. When you imagine what you would do this, something emotional, something interesting.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  There's another method. It is when you perform specific actions upon awakening. Because when we wake up, every time we have around one minute, something like this, to re-induce REM sleep by specific mental actions. And it means that when you wake up, you have consciousness, you have understanding. So you wake up and for example, you imagine yourself that you are walking outside your house. You're touching something, you're scrutinizing something. So you just imagine some actions, some physical actions, some sensations.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  And suddenly, in a few seconds, you understand that you are not imaginary. It's not a visualization in your head. Suddenly, you feel everything. And it becomes actual reality for you. You don't feel your physical body in your bed anymore. You're just immersed in a different reality.

• 47:20Ky Dickens?

  So as you're waking up, you visualize something with detail, walking down the stairs, grabbing coffee, what it smells like.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, trying to see the details. And the more you are immersed in this visualization, the more chances that just in a few seconds, all your visualized sensations will be transformed into actual sensations. It works quite efficiently. All in two just to try this method upon awakening. And maybe it won't work first attempt, second attempt, but could easily work third attempt. With practice, it becomes more and more efficient.

• 48:02Ky Dickens?

  Geez, okay. And then are there practical benefits? I mean, we kind of touched on this, but that you can, you know, do or access in the phase state that are underappreciated? Like, is there a potential to heal yourself or to create something that maybe you wouldn't be able to create in waking life? Or for problem solving or advanced math? I mean, is the phase state beneficial to humanity and us as individuals?

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Of course, of course. For example, the highest number of scientific papers on research during application is about psychology, how it could help you to reduce fears, nightmares, phobias. And it is so efficient because when you experience something in this state, for your brain, it is reality. It means that you can emulate any situation which may affect your psychological state. You can train, you can obtain skills, it can help to reduce some psychological issues. Or you can obtain information. Yeah. And especially this topic

• 49:10Speaker 02

  is extremely important for people with disabilities.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Because imagine a paralyzed person. This topic in general could look like entertainment for most of the people. But for people who are limited in their physical abilities, this technology will provide actual reality.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  And they will be able to do some simple things they miss and so on. Reality is going to be like a true freedom for humanity.

• 49:43Ky Dickens?

  Well, and then, you know, a lot of non-speaking individuals that I've met and that I featured in Telepathy Day talk about going somewhere at night. They'll talk about going to school or going to the realms where they learn information. Or they talk about talking to a higher power and gleaning things they didn't know or learning a language they didn't know. I mean, do you think that is connected to an out-of-body experience? Or do you think that's connected to this, like this REM phase-type sleep where they might be lucid dreaming? How, from your point of view and what you know, how would you explain that?

• 50:18Speaker 02

  At least partially, and I'm fully confident, they experience the phase state from time to time. I can give you a very simple example. Just two days ago, I was interviewed by kids from Winnetka, called kids. And when they, there were around 30 kids. And when I asked them about lucid dreams, the body experience, sleep paralysis, almost all of them had raised their hands. So some of them have experienced it queer often. And it means that it is very, very widespread phenomenon. And I'm 100% sure that they experienced it also.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  And sometimes when they describe these things, these stories, it's highly possible they are referring to REM sleep. We don't know actual limits of our brain. And it could be in our brain, could be something more, but at least.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  Sometimes they experience it for sure and they may find something useful for them, something interesting for them in this state to provide them with some additional options for their life. So actually, it's a very promising field.

• 51:35Ky Dickens?

  You know, I, some people view out of body experiences, which, you know, sounds very similar to some of these lucid dreams, you know, where you feel yourself leaving your body and snapping back in. And some people view out of body experiences from a spiritual lens and some people approach them scientifically. I'm wondering where you fall on this and how you navigate that divide in your work.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  I can give you a very simple example. People who think that they practice lucid dreams, people who think that they practice out of body experience, they use exactly the same method. So it's just matter of years, just, just about your philosophy, it's about your worldview. When I was a teenager, I thought that I was leaving my body for sure by my soul, something like this. Right now, I don't think like this because, because I can test this, because I experience it often. I can make some experiments to prove my point of view.

• 52:36Ky Dickens?

  How do you explain, you know, because Leslie Keen wrote a book called Surviving Death. And in, I think it's in the first chapter of that book, it talks about someone who had this out of body. It might have been more of a near death experiment, experience where they saw the doctor and what they were using, um, you know, as far as instruments go. And then they saw who was in the room and who was leaving the room. And then they saw a shoe on, where they went up and up and up and then outside of the hospital saw a shoe on a ledge outside of a window. And people went to try to find the shoe to see, did this really happen? And they did find the shoe on a ledge that you couldn't even really see out a window. You had to kind of look out and it took a long time to, to determine if the shoe was there. I mean, how do you explain that? Like, if you're in

• 53:19Ky Dickens?

  this REM lucid dreaming state, can you zoom out your perspective to see more than just, right? Or, or are you actually leaving your body? Could you be, or your consciousness leaving your body?

• 53:31Speaker 02

  First of all, let me remind you that we cannot explain everything through REM sleep. There could be difference, more phenomena.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  And second, actually, we have conducted a couple of studies directly referring to near-death experience. And we see that descriptions of sensations can be very, very similar. It does not mean that it is the same thing all the time, but we see some correlations. And there's a very interesting fact, that some people describe near-death experience without any proof that they were dead. So for example, they weren't dead, they were alive, but they had this common experience

• 54:21Speaker 02

  of living bodies, tunnel with light, something like this, seeing their deceased, passed-away relatives. So they described exactly the same sensations, even though they were alive.

• 54:34Ky Dickens?

  Fascinating. You know, what you see as a future of research into altered states of consciousness, is this just gonna explode? I know you said it's gonna be like AI, but what is that gonna mean for everyday lives, for technology, for the workplace?

• 54:48Speaker 02

  If we talk about REM sleep, and I could freely talk about, because I see what's going on here, I'm pretty sure that it will reshape our understanding of who we are, what we do, what for we do something in the real world. Because once again, if REM sleep compensates things you miss in reality, you will think twice before working too much, just to earn some money to experience some experience. And it will reshape our understanding, our communication, it will affect civilization significantly. That's why sometimes I think REM sleep will reshape our civilization as much as electricity,

• 55:32Speaker 02

  as the internet. It will change understanding of who we are, what we can do. And it is inevitable, it will happen very soon. Prepare yourself for a new reality, it's upcoming. And we all will pay much more attention to our dreams, to REM sleep. It is something that you won't imagine in your life. That's very simple. Just prepare mentally, prepare for yourself for a new upcoming reality.

• 56:07Ky Dickens?

  That's it for this episode of The Talk Tracks, but new episodes will now be released every other Sunday, so stay tuned as we work to unravel all the threads, even the veiled ones that knit together our reality. Please remember to stay kind, stay curious, and that being a true skeptic requires an open mind. Thank you to my amazing collaborators. Original music was created by Elizabeth P. W., original logo and cover art by Ben Kendor Design, the audio mix and finishing by Sarah Ma, our amazing podcast coordinator Jill Pachesnik, the telepathy tapes coordinator in my right hand, Catherine Ellis. And I'm Kai Dickens, your writer, creator, and host. Thank you again for joining us.