Gregg Renfrew Leads The Clean Beauty Movement

You might be surprised to learn that approximately 84,000 chemicals currently find their way into commercial products -- with over 1,500 new chemicals released annually. Despite evidence of health harms, most of these chemicals have not been adequately tested for their impact on humans. Nonetheless, many of them find their way into a vast and problematic array of skincare, beauty and cleaning products. Moreover, due to laws that haven’t been updated in 80 years, I was shocked to discover that the Food and Drug Administration -- the regulatory authority charged with ensuring the safety of such products -- doesn't necessarily screen product ingredients for safety. In fact, it provides very little oversight when it comes to what ends up in beauty products. Worse yet, the FDA has zero authority to recall products even in the event of a proven harm. When entrepreneur Gregg Renfrew learned that the US has not passed any major legislation about the safety of ingredients in personal care products since 1939, she became determined to make the business of beauty better. Hence was born Beautycounter -- a market disrupting, direct-to-consumer line of cleaner, safer skincare products and cosmetics that made Fast Company’s 2019 list of the 50 most innovative companies. Gregg's been at the helm of Beautycounter since its 2011 inception, driven by a desire to provide toxic-free fare and greater economic opportunity for women. In addition to overseeing 150 employees and 40,000 consultants, Gregg is also a ferocious fixture on Capitol Hill, where she lobbies relentlessly for cosmetic industry reform. And she somehow does it all while remaining a present and involved mom to three of the most incredible kids I have ever met. Her ultimate goal? Overhauling the archaic laws that currently govern her industry -- so we can all be beautifully clean. Similar to a handful of past podcast guests, I struck up a friendship with Gregg in 2018 at The Nantucket Project. Over the last year and a half, I've had the privilege of observing her in action -- at work, on stage, and at home. Let's just say it's all very impressive. Today she shares her story. It's a conversation about an entrepreneurial journey that humbly began with cleaning houses before founding Wedding List -- a company she built and later sold, leading to lessons learned working tricky stretches under powerful women like Martha Stewart and Susie Hilfiger. It's about the experience that motivated her to start Beautycounter, and the unorthodox decisions that followed. Like the 1,500 potentially harmful ingredients that she vowed never to use in her products. And eschewing retail for a direct-to-consumer business model driven by a network of independent consultants. But more than anything, this is a powerful primer on the perils of conventional beauty products that will leave you completely rethinking what you put on your body (and your children's bodies) -- and well armed to make more educated decisions about the companies and products you patronize going forward. The visually inclined can watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Gregg is a true force of nature. And this conversation is a gift. May you receive it with gratitude. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Gregg Renfrew?

  One and a half pages of legislation that govern an $80 billion industry that still allow for chemicals of concern that cause cancer, linked to endocrine disruption, all those things, neurotoxicity, those chemicals are in our products and the government has not taken action on a federal level. You know, the sperm count in the US is down 50% over the last 25 years, and you know, about 40% of male sperm is now defective. So if we don't think it's impacting men, it's absolutely impacting, it's impacting all of us. And so, you know, every one of us needs to be focused on our bodies and our safety, and hopefully, you know, just knowing a little bit more. And I also think that, you know, I say that the product we sell is beauty, but we're trying to sell a clean lifestyle, you know, a lifestyle that you live, Rich.

• 1:47Gregg Renfrew?

  And I think that just those little things, like just wash your floors with water and vinegar, take your shoes off at the door, you know, get rid of the plastic containers over time, don't use non-stick pans. I mean, there's some basic things that can make a difference in your life right out of the gate.

• 2:01Rich Roll?

  That's Greg Renfrew, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:19Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody. How goes it? My name is Rich Roll, your host on this podcast enterprise on which I welcome all of you with arms outstretched. So this show spends a lot of time exploring the health, the environmental, and the ethical implications of the food we eat. But what goes under the radar, unfortunately, is how absolutely mindless and uninformed most of us are when it comes to the quality and the nature of the countless products we slather daily on our largest organ, our skin. Right now, there are more than 80,000 chemicals currently on the market, many of which we know for a fact to be harmful

• 3:03Rich Roll?

  to human health, that nonetheless find their way into a vast and, dare I say, problematic array of skincare, beauty, and cleaning products. Now, this may not come as a total surprise, but what I personally was shocked to learn is that due to laws that haven't been updated in 80 years, the FDA, the Food and Drug Administration, the organization that we rely upon when it comes to ensuring the safety of things we put in and on our bodies, doesn't necessarily screen product ingredients for safety. In fact, the FDA provides very little oversight or regulation when it comes to what ends up in beauty products.

• 3:44Rich Roll?

  And here's the real kicker. It has zero authority to recall products, to pull them off the shelves, even in the event of a proven harm. Put another way, companies are basically allowed to self-regulate, to use harmful ingredients, and make their own judgments about safety. And there's something, I don't know about you, that just doesn't quite sit right with me about that. Serial entrepreneur Greg Renfrew was so impacted by this revelation, she decided to do something about it. Hence was born Beauty Counter, a market-disrupting, direct-to-consumer line of clean, safe makeup and skincare products that made Fast Company's 2019 list of the 50 most innovative companies. But

• 4:31Rich Roll?

  Beauty Counter isn't just about toxic-free fair. It's about responsible sourcing and next-level transparency. It's about creating economic opportunity for women, and it's about consumer education. But I think what's most impressive is Greg and Beauty Counter's commitment to advocacy, to overhauling the archaic laws that currently govern the beauty industry. But Greg is more than a founder and a CEO. She is a powerful force of nature, and this is a great conversation that I can guarantee you is going to leave you rethinking what you put on your body. And it's all coming up in a couple of few. But first.

• 5:19Rich Roll?

  Okay, so like more than a handful of past guests on this show, I first met Greg at the Nantucket Project about a year and a half ago. We became friends. Her husband, Mark, is my go-to workout partner. In fact, we're doing Attila Catalina together at the end of February. Greg has been an incredible mentor to Julie and her burgeoning plant-based cheese company, Shrimoo. And I've had the good fortune of getting to watch Greg in action, and she's just super impressive. In addition to running Beauty Counter, which counts something like 150 employees and 40,000 consultants in its ranks, she lobbies fearlessly for cosmetic industry regulation on Capitol Hill.

• 6:04Rich Roll?

  And she's also an incredible mom to three truly amazing kids, and I do not say this lightly. Mark and Greg's kids are quite remarkable. And so I was delighted that she agreed to share her story on the show today and to help everyone better understand how important it is to be educated on these issues so we can better protect ourselves and our families. So that's it. This is me and Greg Renfrew.

• 6:30Rich Roll?

  Well, thanks for doing this. Thank you for making all the way up here to sit down. This is a long time coming. I've been looking forward to this for a long time.

• 6:38Gregg Renfrew?

  Me too. It's an honor to be here.

• 6:40Rich Roll?

  You have created quite the amazing organization. I want to get into like how this whole thing happened and the intentionality behind it. It's super interesting. So first of all, like, congrats on what you've manifested and created because it's really, truly something to behold. When I was going into Santa Monica to meet our mutual friend, Tom Scott, the other day, I was supposed to meet him at his hotel. And at the last second, he's like, "Meet me at this address." And I didn't know that that was Beauty Counter. And I'm like, "What is this building?" You know, I go up and it opens up into this whole amazing world, your fiefdom. It was cool. I'm in my flip flops. I'm like, "I feel underdressed in here."

• 7:21Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, I always get accused of that. Some people that come to work at the company say, "Do we have to be dressed up all the time?" I'm like, "No, I just came from New York." I like to dress up sometimes. You can wear whatever you want to.

• 7:31Rich Roll?

  So, well, let's start at the beginning. You are, I mean, I think it's fair to say you're a serial entrepreneur. Like, this isn't your first time at bat. Like, you've launched successful companies in the past, like going back to like cleaning houses in Nantucket, like during college, right? Like, you've always had an entrepreneurial flair. Did you always know that that was going to be your path?

• 7:56Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, I think when I started working as a kid, there was no real definition around entrepreneurism. And I think now it's one of those things that everyone talks about, quote unquote, entrepreneurs. I just had ideas and I needed to make money. So those two things tend to make you entrepreneurial.

• 8:12Rich Roll?

  But it wasn't like, "I'm gonna go get a job." Like, you wanted to start your own thing.

• 8:16Gregg Renfrew?

  I don't think I've ever done a particularly good job of being part of a big hierarchical structure. I think I tend to want to operate more efficiently and... I don't like, I like to cut out all the red tape and the bullshit. You know, I think that, for me, when I first started working when I was a kid, it was just how do I, how can I, what are those things that I can do to make some quick money and that allow me to flexibility? And the cleaning company started because I wanted to be able to go to the beach and I needed to make a lot of money. And, you know, I knew I could clean houses, but, you know, I didn't want to go work in a store where it was a set amount of, I like being in control of those types of things. I knew I could make money on my own time and work as much or as little as I wanted to and that the end result would be of my doing and not because I worked for $12 an hour in the store.

• 9:00Rich Roll?

  When you were cleaning those houses, was Tom cruising around on a boat selling juice? Did those things overlap or was that a different time?

• 9:07Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, he was cruising around on a boat. I wasn't cruising around with him. Maybe I should have been. I'd be in a different place today. But, yeah, you know, it was, I was out in Antucket in the summer in my college years because it was fun. I mean, it was such a different world back then, but everyone, every single house that was being painted, everything that was happening on Antucket in those days was being done by college kids and it was a blast.

• 9:29Rich Roll?

  Right. So then you graduate college and I don't know if this story is true or apocryphal, but what I heard was that your mom wrote a check for five grand and gave you a briefcase and said, "Here you go and that's, that's the end of it."

• 9:43Gregg Renfrew?

  That is the end of it. My mother gave me a black briefcase with SGR, my initials on it, a monogrammed briefcase.

• 9:50Rich Roll?

  Here you go, into the world.

• 9:51Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, my mother had always felt, my mother from the, from when I was a really little girl had always said, "You need to be financially independent and I'm going to get you through school and whether I have the means with which to continue to support you or not, I'm not going to. You need to be able to stand on your own two feet." So, you know, she sent that message and it was, it was loud and clear. I remember saying to her that I wanted to move to Australia or Hong Kong, all these ideas. And she said, "Great, well, you've got five grand. Do with it what you will." But she wasn't at all prepared to give me any more money and, and didn't.

• 10:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 10:22Gregg Renfrew?

  And still won't.

• 10:23Rich Roll?

  Right. So you, you went to New York City and started a little business and then quickly racked up a credit card bill, right? And, and she was, she was like, "All right, well..." I guess it's time to get a job. Something like that.

• 10:33Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, no, I had a job. I mean, I got, I graduated from college. I cleaned, I cleaned the summer after I graduated for, so I had a little money. I had the $5,000. I got my apartment going in the Upper East Side of New York and I started an ad, with an advertising agency as an account manager, making like 19 grand a year. But I was, you know, going out and shopping. I just wasn't used to it. And all of a sudden I called my mom, I had like a $2,000 Amex and she's like, well, get a new job. I mean, that was that. So I did.

• 10:58Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And when does, well, first of all, sort of behind the scenes, growing up, like you moved around a lot, right? Like you lived in lots of different places and there was money and then there wasn't money. And my, you know, my assumption is that kind of fueled your desire to be financially independent, like, and to not have to, you know, weather some of those things that you, you had to deal with growing up.

• 11:21Gregg Renfrew?

  For sure. I mean, I think sometimes people, I would admit, I have a, not an unhealthy relationship to money, but it is a thing for me in a way that, that I, you know, grew up in a family that was from well-positioned families and was doing quite well in the beginning. And then it was all sort of stripped from, out from us and we were forced to move to, from place to place. And I mean, look, there are people who've had far more challenging circumstances, but it does impact you when you're constantly moving and you have a father who's sick and your parents are divorced and you're trying to make ends meet. And so for me, I always say to people, I'm not driven by money at all, but I am driven by the desire of not having to ever worry about money again, which is to me a big difference.

• 11:58Rich Roll?

  Those are different things.

• 11:59Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah.

• 11:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 12:00Gregg Renfrew?

  So it definitely impacted my childhood. And I think for a long time, part of what drove me was the desire to kind of reclaim my family's position and not always having to just be on the outskirts of the, the world in which they had lived because of the economic disparity between my family and their family, friends and relatives. And so that was important to me.

• 12:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 12:18Gregg Renfrew?

  It's still important to me.

• 12:19Rich Roll?

  Right. So you start selling Xerox machines.

• 12:22Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah.

• 12:22Rich Roll?

  Right? In the jewelry district?

• 12:24Gregg Renfrew?

  Sexiest job alive. Yeah. Howard Shelton and I, the two people that started on the west side of Manhattan in the jewelry district.

• 12:29Rich Roll?

  Did he do that too?

• 12:30Gregg Renfrew?

  He did. I heard that. And I was, I said, I met him once and I said, you know, you and I both sold Xerox copiers. I mean, it's, it's a good, it's a good learning experience. I mean, Xerox had an incredible sales training program and You know, getting the door literally slammed in your face. And people will say that they get the door slammed in their face, but they don't literally mean the door. It was, you know, it was challenging walking up and down halls, knocking on doors, selling people copiers that they really didn't need.

• 12:55Rich Roll?

  And you gotta like, get that credit card bill paid.

• 12:57Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, but I was gonna, I was determined. I mean, I had no choice.

• 13:00Rich Roll?

  And, and, and doing it in, in the diamond district, basically immersed in Orthodox Jewish culture, right? Which, which is a very different kind of, you know, paradigm.

• 13:13Gregg Renfrew?

  It was, you know, it was funny because they used to make fun of me because, you know, I'd grown up in, you know, Cotonaw, New York, Bedford area, you know, sort of this white waspy girl that came in knocking on the door. And they used to laugh, like, they thought it was really funny. They, they loved me.

• 13:25Rich Roll?

  We're gonna buy a copier from you?

• 13:27Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, preppy girl. And they'd be like, you know, but they, they would give me so much shit. And then, and then ultimately, I figured it out. Like, I figured out the art of negotiating with them. I figured out, I listened enough to figure out what it was. And when I finally would say, actually, I don't want to sell you this copy anymore, forget it. And I would walk out the door, they'd be like, okay, we'll sign. And so, once I learned how they dealt in business, it made it a lot easier for me to work with them.

• 13:48Rich Roll?

  What was it that you learned specifically? Like, what is it about that that was different?

• 13:52Gregg Renfrew?

  Specifically to that group of men, and it was all men at the time, is that they wanted to feel like they'd kind of broken you. Like, they had gotten as far as they could to the point where you were literally willing to walk away. And if they felt like there was just even like a little glimmer that they could go just a little farther, they would just keep going and they would continue to refuse you. But once you threw up your hands and just said, screw it, I don't care, then they were like, okay.

• 14:12Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Then you start selling a lot of copiers.

• 14:15Gregg Renfrew?

  I sold a lot of copiers.

• 14:16Rich Roll?

  Well, where does wedding list come in?

• 14:19Gregg Renfrew?

  So I, so you're asking about, you know, dark secrets, you know, earlier before we started.

• 14:24Rich Roll?

  That's why we're here.

• 14:24Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, we're here for the, no, but it was, so when I was really, really young, I, my husband probably won't be thrilled that I'm saying this, but you know, I got married very young, quickly, for, I had about a five-month stint in the age of 24, 25.

• 14:36Rich Roll?

  That was longer than mine.

• 14:37Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, yeah, it's a starter. I think everyone needs a good starter marriage. But anyway, so I, I did, and to a great guy, but just wasn't the right long-term, you know, relationship for me. But it, during that process of getting married and watching all of my friends get married, I was constantly looking at all these hideous bridesmaids dresses and thinking, you know, you've got, you gotta buy all these dresses. You don't like the color, you don't like the fit, you don't have the money to pay for them. And so, I started selling bridesmaids dresses on the side with a friend of mine. We started a little business called Elizabeth Gregg. And our goal was to solve the problem of, you know, dresses that no one liked. And that led me to learning a little bit about the wedding industry. And in my day job, which was with a brokerage firm at the time, post Xerox, I was transferred to London and met a woman named Nicole Heimarch,

• 15:21Gregg Renfrew?

  who was selling wedding gifts in London through a wedding registry service. And I thought, wow, maybe I could partner with her to sell bridesmaids dresses. And she quickly told me, like, they don't use bridesmaids in the way that the Americans do. But we became friends and I became intrigued with her business concept. And ultimately, over a two-year period, we kept in touch. And then when I decided I want to go out on my own, I approached her to bring that concept to the States.

• 15:44Rich Roll?

  So hence began, you know, the true kind of entrepreneurial arc that you've been on ever since. And this was like, what, like 97 or something like that?

• 15:54Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, 98. So I was, I think I was in, I was in London in, you know, 95, 95. So it was, that's, it all started around then.

• 16:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's kind of like AOL era. So, you know, e-commerce was like, you know, something that people were talking about, but something that people weren't actually doing that much of. Like, there was still the trust issue, like, can I buy something online? And that was a big part of, like, you were like way ahead of the curve with this.

• 16:19Gregg Renfrew?

  We were way ahead. I remember my, my first deck when I went out to raise capital for the wedding list that literally said, I mean, it's so funny today. It's at the convenience of online purchasing. And I would, first of all, I mean, here, you're selling, you're a girl. You're in your mid twenties. You're selling to men a wedding registry concept online. And the answers were just, I mean, the guys' eyes would glaze over, you know, they had no interest in getting involved in wedding gifts. And I remember one said, well, I call my secretary, who calls my wife, who, you know, then buys the, at the time that I was the CEO of Saks Fifth Avenue. And then, you know, and then after my wife, you know, signs off, she goes, comes to Saks and buys the present. And I thought, well, I love this, man. And I literally was like, you've got to be kidding me. I was like, you need me a lot more than I need you. Like, you need to learn that this is where we're going.

• 17:03Gregg Renfrew?

  But it was really ahead of its time, a little too hard, too far ahead of its time.

• 17:06Rich Roll?

  Right, so these, these venture capitalists just couldn't wrap their heads around shopping online at that point yet. It was too risky or...

• 17:15Gregg Renfrew?

  I just think that, I mean, they did and they ultimately gave us some funding, but it was, it was foreign to them and I think that they kept thinking about wedding registry as this experience that, you know, you need to physically go to the store. And I was saying, I think it's more like a commodity. Someone knows exactly what they want to pay for a wedding gift. And so if they can click at $50 or $75 and be done, they don't ever want to go to a store.

• 17:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 17:39Gregg Renfrew?

  So I, you know, look, I mean, it was an interesting business. What was interesting about it also was it was one of the first true multi-channel retail business models.

• 17:48Rich Roll?

  Multi-channel, meaning you're, you're cross-platform, like you're, you're offering products from various different retailers.

• 17:54Gregg Renfrew?

  His, no, meaning multi-channel, meaning that you as a, as a client of the business or a consumer could come to our store, you could shop online. You know, you didn't have to, we had a catalog, so there, we were multiple touchpoints. And historically, you either were in a physical store or it started, people were starting to creep online, but you didn't have multiple channels working together to create the best experience for consumers. We take that for granted today, but this is a while ago.

• 18:18Rich Roll?

  And this is like web 1.0.

• 18:20Gregg Renfrew?

  Yes.

• 18:20Rich Roll?

  You know, this is, this is well before the 2008, you know, crash of web 2.0.

• 18:25Gregg Renfrew?

  Yes.

• 18:26Rich Roll?

  So what did you, what did you learn then that's been instrumental now?

• 18:32Gregg Renfrew?

  Oh, so many things. I mean, I think one thing that has served me well this time around is realizing, and I say this to people who are looking at businesses or trying to build businesses, that, you know, you never, you have it in you to do what you need to get done. And oftentimes, when you have a good idea, people will attach themselves and make them, make you feel like you need them. I'm sure you experienced this in your life. And so I learned to, I've gotten smarter about that and trying to really figure out who could be helpful to me and who just wants to be attached to my business idea. And then also, I think the other big learning for me with the wedding list was that you have a choice in investors. And granted, at that time, I didn't have as much of a choice, but who actually supports you financially? I mean, you and I were just having a conversation about another friend with an investor where

• 19:16Gregg Renfrew?

  if you don't have the right person, they're not aligned with your interests, it's going to be very, very difficult. And I think I was so desperate to take in the cash at the time that I made some bad decisions and I chose the wrong people and they ultimately were the demise of the business.

• 19:28Rich Roll?

  Right. So you sell the business to Martha Stewart and that becomes, that's the first acquisition of Martha Stewart Living, right? At the time. So then Martha Stewart becomes your boss.

• 19:38Gregg Renfrew?

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:39Rich Roll?

  What was that like?

• 19:42Gregg Renfrew?

  Too bad you don't drink anymore. We could talk about this over cocktails.

• 19:45Rich Roll?

  We're gonna talk about it now.

• 19:47Gregg Renfrew?

  She's, you know, it was, it was difficult. Well, it was difficult for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which was it was the first acquisition and the entire brand had been built around Martha and I was the face of the wedding list and it was very much built around me. And so I, you know, I was getting a lot of press. There was, it was that moment in time where all the dot coms were booming and younger people were being highlighted. So that was difficult. I think also she had a chief operating officer at the time, Sharon Patrick, and had me report into both Martha and Sharon. So, and they didn't agree on anything. So no matter which way I went, I was screwed.

• 20:17Rich Roll?

  You were pissing somebody off.

• 20:18Gregg Renfrew?

  I mean, someone was always mad at me. And, and working for Martha, I mean, you know, it's, I've learned a lot about leadership and I've done, made tons of mistakes along the way, but the way in which she led people, which was really a fear-based leadership model to me was something I definitely learned I didn't want to replicate. It's because she just was ruthless. She's incredibly talented, but she is also ruthless.

• 20:37Rich Roll?

  I heard that she, or I read that she would call you at 6:01 every day to make sure that you were still in the office.

• 20:43Gregg Renfrew?

  Typically like, not necessarily every day, but for sure Friday nights. Like the second you started driving to the Hamptons or, you know, upstate New York or wherever you might be going, it was like she literally would call you and ask you where you were. I mean, I just couldn't win. I mean, I remember the very first week when I was going through orientation there. This is probably the beginning when I started to irritate her. So you go into Martha Stewart offices, and I haven't been there for many, many years, but they had pretzel sticks, oatmeal, Diet Coke, Coke, and V8 juice, like a totally random assortment of things. And I remember them telling me on my tour, you should drink V8 juice because Martha likes V8 juice. And I was like, what? And so when I got in the first, like, I was on some plane with her. I was like, do you really actually drink V8 juice? I liked V8 juice, but this is a long time ago.

• 21:26Gregg Renfrew?

  But, but are you telling me I have to drink V8 juice to work for you? Oh, and there was cranberry juice too. And she looked at me like I was crazy. And I said, like, I'm not gonna drink V8 juice because that's what you want me to drink. That was, that was sort of probably the beginning.

• 21:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and how did she, what was her reaction to that?

• 21:39Gregg Renfrew?

  I mean, she doesn't like it if you, you know, I was the person in the room that when she'd say, who picked that hideous color of light blue? And I'd say, Martha, you did yesterday. Remember in the meeting at 4:45? Whereas everyone else would be like, oh, I'm so sorry, Martha. I made a bad decision. I just wasn't gonna put up with it.

• 21:53Rich Roll?

  So where does that, where does that like fearless compunction come from?

• 21:56Gregg Renfrew?

  That's a good question. You know, that's a good question.

• 22:00Rich Roll?

  You're, I mean, you're nothing if not direct. Like, you're very direct, but in a way that, that doesn't alienate. Like, you're like, oh, she's just, you just call it like you see it.

• 22:10Gregg Renfrew?

  It can alienate some people, for sure. I think that, I don't know. You know, my parents were extremely communicative. Like, we had sort of no bullshit in our family. Both my mother and father, if you ask them a question about something, they would give you a very direct answer. So I was brought up that way. You know, so when my kids ask me questions about life, or sex, or whatever it is, like, I'm gonna just answer the question as I see fit. I'm not gonna make up some convoluted story to protect them, or to shield them from understanding what's really going on. So I think I was always encouraged to be direct. And I don't know, I think I was really scrappy. I was telling my youngest daughter, Georgie, the other day, who's pretty short, and I'm, I'm pretty short too, but I was really short when I was little, just like she is, that some boy was making fun of my name, and he was like, "Your name is Greg, huh?" And I just punched him, and I broke my thumb.

• 22:53Gregg Renfrew?

  And I don't know, so there's something in me that, if I don't like it, I'm just gonna tell you how, you know.

• 22:57Rich Roll?

  It's just always been that way.

• 22:58Gregg Renfrew?

  It's always been that way. I don't punch anyone anymore, but I, but I, I am direct.

• 23:02Rich Roll?

  Well, it serves you in a leadership role, for sure, right? Like, you have a vision, you're executing on it, you know what you need, and what you want, and what you don't like, and what you do like. And to be able to communicate that directly and effectively, I would imagine, helps things get done a little bit more efficiently.

• 23:18Gregg Renfrew?

  I think it does.

• 23:19Rich Roll?

  Rather than being really politic, and kind of dancing around people.

• 23:22Gregg Renfrew?

  So it's interesting, you know, when I got to LA, LA's been a tough place for me to live socially, it's just been a hard place, for a lot of reasons. And I think for a moment in time, when I started Beauty Counter, I was pretty, like, the least confident and secure that I've been in life, for whatever reason. I think it was really humbling to move here, to this town, and start all over again. And I didn't really feel like my equity was valued in Los Angeles, when I first moved here. And so I was not as direct as I had been in previous jobs, and in life. And I actually think it created a difficult culture at Beauty Counter for a long time, which we've been undoing. Now, I am incredibly direct, and I can say it with kindness, and with empathy, but in compassion, but to say... You let me down, or I don't agree with this, or we need to move in another

• 24:07Gregg Renfrew?

  direction. I've gotten much more comfortable again in being that way because I think it's critically important in all relationships in life to be direct. And I think in today's marketplace, with building a consumer-facing brand, or just in dealings in business, people are craving authenticity. And I always say to people, you might like what I'm gonna say, or you might not, but you know I'm gonna tell you the truth, at least. You can count on that.

• 24:30Rich Roll?

  Right. So what brought you to Los Angeles?

• 24:32Gregg Renfrew?

  My husband's job. And, you know, Mark had been offered an opportunity to start a wealth management business out on the West Coast with his previous firm. And, you know, we'd been looking at, you know, New York, and I love New York, it's my hometown, but it can be a grind, as you know. And we'd kind of been debating what our next step might be. And we thought, you know, what the hell, let's try LA. We went out, you know, you know, the typical LA story, when you hear someone gets transferred out there, they take you to Shutter's, you know, on a Tuesday night when the sun's setting, and you're looking at the ocean, and it's warm, and it's, you know, 20 degrees below zero in New York City, it seems pretty compelling. And we decided to move. And we've been here for 11 years now.

• 25:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It is hard to move here, though. It's a very alienating city. It's so, it's so diffuse that it's, it's difficult to connect with people. And to make, it doesn't, it doesn't have that vitality and spontaneity that New York does. I mean, New York is very unique in that regard, but most urban centers are concentrated enough that provide you, that it provides you with some aspect of that. But in LA, you really have to work hard. And it took me years, living here, to like, find where I like to go, and where the people are that I like, and where's my community and my tribe. Like, you have to really shoulder it yourself. Whereas in New York, it kind of just, it's, it just lands on top of your head.

• 25:49Gregg Renfrew?

  I think that LA can be really, really lonely. And I think part of it is to sort of just the geograph, geography of the city, it's so spread out. That it's and you know, I'm so tired of the traffic conversation because I was in New York last week twice in the last 10 days and I think the traffic is insane everywhere. But it is physically really spread out and to your point, it's it's hard to find your tribe. It's been really hard for me to find my tribe here. And I don't think it's all about the entertainment industry either. I think it's just people are they're busy, they're living their lives and they're physically spread out and it's just not easy to there's no central place that you can always bump into those people that you love.

• 26:26Rich Roll?

  Right. So after wedding list, you do a couple of different things. You're consulting on retail brands and then you run this company Best in Company. I'm not really sure what that was about what like, I don't even know what that that did. But you and you worked for, you know, more powerful women. You worked for Tommy Hilfiger's ex-wife, right? What's her first name?

• 26:45Gregg Renfrew?

  Susie Hilfiger.

• 26:46Rich Roll?

  Suzie, right? That was another interesting experience.

• 26:48Gregg Renfrew?

  That was. That was. That was a brilliant. I mean, you know, Best in Company, I now, you know, you say, what have I learned along the way? Another thing that I've learned along the way is when it seems too good to be true, it is too good to be true. And I think when I went to work for, I was so honored to get the call from Tommy. I mean, you know, I've worked in the retail and fashion world. So for me, it was such a big deal. He was and continues to be such an incredible icon and powerful businessman. And he had they had this legendary children's clothing brand that had kind of gone defunct and they were bringing it back to life. And it was an amazing brand. There aren't a lot of great American brands out there that are kind of older. And I was excited about it. But I think, you know, they were going through a time where he was trying to make the company profitable. Suzie wasn't. They were getting divorced. I was caught in the crosshairs. And honestly,

• 27:32Gregg Renfrew?

  I don't think I handled my position as CEO particularly well. I think I was cocky. Like I was a lot. It's funny, as you get older, how much less cocky you can become. But it's just, I think I come off the wedding list and I probably thought I was the shit. And I didn't treat her with the respect that she deserves. And she was challenging to work with. But, you know, I blew it and I got fired in front of everybody.

• 27:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:54Gregg Renfrew?

  By Messenger.

• 27:55Rich Roll?

  A messenger arrives with a letter, right?

• 27:58Gregg Renfrew?

  I mean, literally.

• 27:59Rich Roll?

  You read in front of you were having like a staff meeting or something?

• 28:02Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, I remember it so well. You know, the person, the messenger buzzes are like, said, are you Greg Renfrew? I said, I am. Are you the CEO of Best in Company? I am. Hold on, everybody, let's give me a second. And I opened up the letter and it's basically like, you're out of here.

• 28:15Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 28:17Gregg Renfrew?

  To say it was a shock to the system, I mean, I knew we weren't getting along particularly well, but that was, I mean, talking about not being direct, that's the antithesis of the way that I operate.

• 28:25Rich Roll?

  That's like an analog text firing.

• 28:27Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah.

• 28:27Rich Roll?

  Right? Old school. Oh, my God. Wow.

• 28:31Gregg Renfrew?

  It was good. I'll give her that. She got me.

• 28:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 28:34Gregg Renfrew?

  For sure.

• 28:35Rich Roll?

  So, let's, let's talk about Beauty Counter. I mean, what, walk me through the inspiration for this and what gave you this idea?

• 28:44Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, there wasn't one specific thing, but I was actually, last night, my friend Lila Rose was in town from New York visiting, and it was Lila, you know, Lila had watched An Inconvenient Truth and became super passionate about the environmental health movement and said to me, you need to watch this film, you are, you know, you're, you're loud, you're direct, you are connected, and I think you should pay attention to what's going on with the environment. And so I watched An Inconvenient Truth, and for whatever reason, that movie rocked my world. It was just the first time, I know it's, it's almost embarrassing to admit this, but it was the first time that I truly paid attention to the fact that things that I was doing, that were doing in my daily life, that the, my very existence was doing, was creating, wreaking havoc on the, on the earth.

• 29:29Gregg Renfrew?

  And so I became focused on the environmental health movement and started to really make changes in my life. Over the next year or two, I also had a situation where I had a woman who was taking care of our kids, or Phoebe at the time, my oldest, who was our nanny, I was working full-time running Bestin Company, and at 31, she was diagnosed with a non-HPV-related cervical cancer, and within 11 months, she had died. And, and so, I was watching this young, beautiful, amazing woman die in front of me, I was watching all these friends of mine struggle with fertility issues, or giving birth to kids who had pretty significant health issues. I looked at what was happening in the environment, I thought like, something's gone terribly awry, and maybe I need to do something about it.

• 30:13Gregg Renfrew?

  And it wasn't about beauty or Beauty Counter at the time, it was just, how do I start to become, how do I educate myself on what's actually going on out there, so that can be a vocal point for change?

• 30:31Rich Roll?

  And there's kind of this epiphany moment when you're using products on your kids, thinking they're, because they have the words "natural" on them, or you think you're using the right brand, or whatever, and then looking at the ingredients label and doing a little research and realizing that the gap between what you're being told or sold and the truth is pretty vast.

• 30:51Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, I thought I was that, I was that Whole Foods shopper, I was the mom that was going to local farm stands, I was eating organic, I mean, I thought I was doing all the right things, I'd gotten rid of all our plastic, I was washing my floors with water and vinegar, and then I was looking at this, and my kids, I had two kids in the tub, and it was a natural foaming oatmeal body wash from a leading drugstore brand, and I thought, I mean, it looked like oatmeal, it smelled like oatmeal, kind of to me, and then someone told me about the Environmental Working Group Skin Deep Database, and I took a look at it, and I was like, holy shit, it was like eight out of nine for toxicity, and I was pretty outraged. So that really was another trigger point for me, that's when I started switching all of my family's products. But the one thing that I couldn't find for myself was just, I couldn't find any skincare or cosmetics that I wanted to

• 31:36Gregg Renfrew?

  use, and there just wasn't anything out there. And, and the more that I learned, the more that I realized that we had laws that were incredibly outdated, the more I realized that there were harmful chemicals in our products, I, I wanted to do something about it, which is really why I started the company.

• 31:49Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, that realization, and then the leap to like, I'm going to create a company around this, like, that's a, that's a jump.

• 31:58Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. Well, you know, it's a journey, it was a journey.

• 32:00Rich Roll?

  Were you looking for your next thing at that time?

• 32:02Gregg Renfrew?

  Not, well, yes and no. I mean, I think that, you know, I think all of this happened over a three, you know, from, from start, you know, watching Inconvenient Truth to when I actually started to focus on beauty counter was over the course of about four years, and it was an, you know, iterative process of trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, what I felt was important, and how did I protect everyone I loved. And when I moved to Los Angeles, I spent about 10 months consulting for Jessica Alba prior to the launch of the Honest Company. And so I was, I was looking at it from a personal standpoint, having experienced all the things I did prior to moving to LA. And then on a professional standpoint, looking at the entire marketplace of products and thinking, well, they're, you know, we're well-served in certain areas, but in, in

• 32:47Gregg Renfrew?

  personal care products and cosmetics, no one's doing anything. And so, you know, it took me a while to figure it out. And, and at, at some point, yes, I did just say, I think I want to start a business that will bring, actually, it was supposed to be safe makeup. And then I was like, wait, I can't put safer makeup on top of toxic skincare. So then I went back and started thinking about it. And ultimately, that's when the idea for Beauty Care began.

• 33:09Rich Roll?

  Right. And you're like the perfect person to do this, right? With all the retail experience and early, you know, internet web experience, direct to consumer, and, and being involved with Honest at its gestation point, understanding kind of that, that health and beauty space a little bit.

• 33:24Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, you know, we, I wasn't actually, you know, Honest had not started when I, when I was, when I left. When, when Jessica and I decided to part ways, it was still conceptual and it was really focused on, you know, baby. And I knew that world. The reason why I was, I was hired by her is I understood baby because I was running a children's clothing company before. And she had originally wanted to start children's clothing, organic children's clothing line. And so I, I think I, where I was the perfect person, I was the perfect person for a couple of reasons. One, when I, when I, when I care about something, I care about it deeply. And I really, really have no problem walking up to people and saying, like, please don't put that on your body. Like, I care. I mean, I don't, I'm so tired of hearing people tell me that they're sick. I'm sure you are too. We know way too many people who are sick. And so I am the perfect person because I wasn't going to take no

• 34:08Gregg Renfrew?

  for an answer. And I care so deeply about this issue that I was gonna, I was determined to take it all the way.

• 34:14Rich Roll?

  Right. I consider myself to be somebody who's fairly up to speed on environmental issues. And, and certainly, I'm the first to say that, you know, governmental regulatory bodies are, are, are not necessarily looking out for your best interest. But even, I was shocked when we were talking, you know, I think you were telling me last year, about the extent to which, you know, the, the FDA is just this paper tiger when it comes to protecting people on the cosmetic and, and kind of skincare front.

• 34:46Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, someone was asking me the other day, why People worry why they feel that they feel safe. Why do people feel safe in the United States in terms of the products on the shelves? And I was saying that in the food industry, if there are two things I think that are different about skincare and cosmetics. And just for clarity purposes, I know you have a lot of men that listen to you talk about things. This isn't red lipstick. This is deodorant, sunscreen, body lotion, anything that we're putting on our bodies, any of those things. I think that two things are different. When you eat something that's really bad for your body, you typically get sick.

• 35:23Rich Roll?

  Like right away.

• 35:25Gregg Renfrew?

  Right, you feel it.

• 35:26Rich Roll?

  There's an immediate, direct reaction.

• 35:27Gregg Renfrew?

  Right, whereas if you're putting on sunscreen or body lotion, you could go your whole life and you would never necessarily know that it was harmful to your health. And then the second thing is, I mean, yes, if you have an allergic reaction, but in the absence of allergic reactions, people would just continue to put stuff on their body. They wouldn't know about it. And I think the second thing that's different is that the FDA in the food industry has the ability to recall products when it's known to be harmful to health. If there's a salmonella outbreak or whatever, they can immediately pull it from the shelves. But what people don't realize in the United States is that when it comes to skincare and cosmetics, they do not have the ability to recall product. They can suggest, but they cannot take action.

• 36:00Rich Roll?

  That is shocking to me. So play that out. Like there's a cosmetic product or some, you know, skin lotion that's on the shelves at every store, and it's got proven toxic chemicals that have been established to link directly to some kind of poor health condition. And the FDA is absolutely powerless to compel the industry to remove it.

• 36:24Gregg Renfrew?

  Correct. So there are a couple of things that are not happening with the FDA. First and foremost, we are not screening chemicals for safety before we put them into the products that we use.

• 36:32Rich Roll?

  Also shocking.

• 36:33Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, so less than 10% of the 85,000 chemicals that have been introduced into commerce have been tested for safety. And about 10,000 of those are commonly used in personal care products. So let's just say a solid 9,000 plus have never been tested for safety on human or environmental health. Then you combine that with the lack of regulation where people can claim natural, pure, botanical, whatever they want in skincare and cosmetics and there's no regulation. So for example, a year or two ago, there was an article about aloe-based products. They tested 38 aloe-based products across department stores and drugstores and they found that not a single one of them had one little drop of aloe in them. And then, you know, the third type of scenario is a scenario and an example would be Brazilian

• 37:14Gregg Renfrew?

  Blowout, or there's one called Wen Hair Care where they've had over 20,000 complaints of hair loss, permanent hair loss for children and women, and yet they

• 37:24Rich Roll?

  Shampoo or something?

• 37:25Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, and it's still on the shelves. And same with Brazilian Blowout where the people who are administering that hair straightening treatment were getting incredibly sick, but they can't do anything about it because it had over 40% formaldehyde. And think about you're heating up formaldehyde and blowing it all over and everyone's breathing it in. The FDA can't do anything about it. And that's why at Beauty Counter, we're so focused on our advocacy efforts because we need to update these outdated laws.

• 37:47Rich Roll?

  How did we get to this point?

• 37:49Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, I mean, look, I think there are a number of things. I think, first of all, there was a brief moment in time in 1938 when the Federal Food, Drugs and Cosmetic Act passed where Americans were protected, but that was prior to, you know, these 85,000 chemicals coming into commerce post-World War II. And so, a lot of the leading companies that are manufacturing products, a lot of large conglomerates, started making these products when they probably, you know, thought they were totally safe. Why wouldn't they have thought they were safe? And now, I think the challenge becomes, you know, how do you undo this? And how do you, when you're sitting with relentless capital markets and, you know, you take your share price down, you know, or whatever, you do the right thing

• 38:32Gregg Renfrew?

  and you take a massive hit. I think people are scared to change. And so, and I think that we haven't updated major federal law since 1938. I mean, it's been over 80 years.

• 38:40Rich Roll?

  Governing law in this, that kind of covers this entire landscape is one law that was passed in 1938.

• 38:47Gregg Renfrew?

  One and a half pages of legislation that govern an $80 billion industry that still allow for chemicals of concern that are known to be caused, that cause cancer, linked to endocrine disruption, all those things, neurotoxicity, those chemicals are in our products and the government has not taken action on a federal level.

• 39:04Rich Roll?

  So, a big part of your mission and why you founded this company?

• 39:10Rich Roll?

  Is this advocacy piece of getting these laws changed? And, and part of that has been you going to Washington DC and banging on doors to get people to pay attention to this, right? There's a new bill that you're, you know, trying to advocate for, for vote, but this has been going on for a year, like since 2015 or something like that.

• 39:32Gregg Renfrew?

  So we, when we launched, you know, from the very beginning, I said, you know, there are three things that we need to do that are really important. We need to educate because we knew that less than 20% of Americans had any idea that there are chemicals of concern. And, and look, I've always said this, we needed, no one needed another beauty brand. I mean, I'm not even a beauty, I was never even a beauty person, like I never even, it wasn't my thing, but I, but we needed to create a movement for better, cleaner, safer products for everyone. And so education's always been a core component of our business and using commerce as an engine for change has also been a core component, because I do think that consumer brands can move markets faster than legislative, like legislative reform will ever happen. On the, on the advocacy side, you know, we started from right out of the gate when I

• 40:15Gregg Renfrew?

  was raising capital, I said to all of our investors, we're going to take this all the way to Washington, you need to be comfortable with that. And we started immediately, the minute we had any skill in, you know, 2013, we started to go out there and talk about it. And we started on the state and federal level, and now we do this in Canada as well. I didn't say this earlier, but not only have we not updated the laws since 1938, the EU banned or restricted, depending on the chemical, about 1,400 ingredients well over a decade ago. When I started Beauty Counter, we had 11 to their 1,400, and now we're up to a whopping 30, so we had to get out there and pound the pavement in Washington. We needed to let them know that it's time for change.

• 40:53Rich Roll?

  And, and walk me through the experience of sitting down with these senators and congressmen.

• 40:58Gregg Renfrew?

  It's been interesting.

• 40:59Rich Roll?

  What is that like? Mark said, the one thing Mark did say is he's like, ask Greg about, what's his name? Lamar Alexander?

• 41:05Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. No, it wasn't, it wasn't Lamar Alexander, but it was someone from his office. I walked in and the guy said, oh, you know, you effing Californians with your vaccinations and, you know, you're, you know, you won't vaccinate your kids and you're, you know, high and mighty and you're Prop 65. And I said, listen dude.

• 41:22Rich Roll?

  Communist.

• 41:23Gregg Renfrew?

  And I was like, listen, calm down, I'm from New York and I vaccinate if I can.

• 41:26Rich Roll?

  When I look at Greg, the first thing I think is communist.

• 41:31Gregg Renfrew?

  Totally, that is me, through and through, yeah. So I was like, listen, I'm from New York City. So let's, let's start over again. But, um, yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day, you know, where their total and complete disconnect is between, and it's not even Republican, Democratic side of things. It's just, it's, it's on state preemption. Who gets to meet, who, who is the holy grail? Is it the FDA or is it the state? You know, if you look at California, which has taken pretty significant health protective measures, they're going to say, no, the federal government is not the holy grail. We're going to determine what things are or are not safe. And the, and then on the other side of it, the argument is, no, the FDA has to be the holy grail for research and we need to decide, you know, what is and is not safe. And Feinstein's office would said, well, to hell with that. We're not going to, we're not going to go backwards.

• 42:13Gregg Renfrew?

  And the other offices said, well, great, well, we're not going to do it unless the FDA has the ultimate power. So that's where we've kind of come to a standstill. But it was an interesting meeting. And, and I, you know, I think the, talk about being direct. I think the funny thing about Washington, it's always like, oh, thank you so much for that, Mr. Senator. Thank you so much, Mrs. Senator. I think what you said was so unbelievable. Meanwhile, they hate each other. They talk to each other as if they're like in a super formal language, Mr. and Mrs. I mean, the whole thing cracks me up because, you know, you walk out of the room and they like want to kill each other. And everything's about compromise and everything's about who, you know, who negotiated harder against one another. And I'm kind of like, why don't we just come up with a solution and get stuff done?

• 42:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:51Gregg Renfrew?

  But God forbid we did that.

• 42:52Rich Roll?

  And there's bipartisan support for this whole thing, right? Like, everybody wants our, our skincare products to be safe, regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum. However, we are, you know, we are dealing with a very, you know, we're in the era of Trump and anti-regulation, so that makes it obviously much more difficult.

• 43:12Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, I don't actually, yes, yes, he is anti-regulation. I don't think that Trump has necessarily made it any more difficult. I think it's been difficult for a really long time. What's been interesting for me, one of the things that's been so cool about Beauty Counter for me is that I've gotten to spend a lot of time with a lot of people around the country and, and been able to hear things from different perspectives. And the one of the things I think I'm most proud of with Beauty Counter is the fact that you have people who literally live on polar opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to their political views, but they're able to join forces and get behind a movement that they believe in. And to your point a moment ago, there is not a single person in the United States of America that has not been directly or indirectly touched by the health issues we face as a nation today. And so that is one thing we can all agree on. And I think everyone on both sides of the aisle will

• 43:55Gregg Renfrew?

  also agree that we do need cosmetic reform. It's the tactics that it's becoming more challenging, but everyone knows it needs to change.

• 44:02Rich Roll?

  There is this weird trust, though, that when I go to the store and I pull something off the shelf and buy it, I am presuming that it's been vetted and that it's safe. And to realize like, well, that's not necessarily the case is quite an eye opener. And I do think that that most people either are not aware of that, it doesn't occur to them, or they don't even think about. It's not part of the calculus when they're deciding which brand they're gonna buy. I mean, that's changing, obviously, in no small parts of what you're doing. But that's the first step, right? Getting people to kind of shock them out of that sense of safety.

• 44:41Gregg Renfrew?

  It's something that we work on every day. And trying to balance, one of the things I always say to everyone that works with us is our goal is not to shame companies or individuals for the choices that have been made. All we can do is create a better path forward. And our job is to show them the way and to help people make more informed choices on behalf of their families. And it's, look, the waters are murky and it's complicated and people don't have a lot of time. And I always, you know, I always say to people, if you're gonna go shopping, just at least shop fragrance free. So many of the most offensive chemicals are found in the fragrances. So just go for a fragrance free line just to start. That'll help. Less is more. And, you know, and look for, you know, things like parabens and things on the label. There are certain ingredients. We have something called a never list, and we always ask people to print it out and go

• 45:24Gregg Renfrew?

  shop the market with it. Because again, I, of course, I'm trying to build a business that's successful and a movement, but the, you know, success for me is how did we change the entire industry? Not how do we sell more Beauty Counter products? Because... We're only one solution and we're not accessible to everyone financially or just physically. Not everyone gets to us. So how do we make sure that everyone's being protected? And how do we help people shop the market when they're out there?

• 45:44Rich Roll?

  Right. The bill that you were really getting behind is the Personal Care Product Safety Act. Right. And there's this newer bill called the Natural Cosmetics Act. My read of that, though, is that that's much more of a labeling initiative. It's not really about getting rid of the toxins in the products themselves. It's just about what shows up on the label to apprise the consumer of what's in it.

• 46:06Gregg Renfrew?

  Correct. They're totally different things. The natural labeling is important because as I said earlier, you don't. People can say they're natural when they're not at all. And so that's just completely misleading. So really trying to define what is and is not natural. We get behind a lot of different things. We really focused on when Hawaii was focused on sunscreen and safer sunscreen. Because oxybenzone, these things are killing the coral reefs. So we try to get involved in a lot of things. The Personal Care Product Safety Act was that first bipartisan bill that was really trying to do a couple of things, which is to screen ingredients for safety prior to them being put in products on the shelves.

• 46:47Gregg Renfrew?

  And to give the FDA the ability to recall product when they know that it's harmful to health. And those were the two key tenets of that bill. And we are still hopeful that will pass through.

• 46:57Rich Roll?

  Are there big lobbying efforts on behalf of these global brands that are trying to prevent this from happening?

• 47:04Gregg Renfrew?

  Of course. Of course. There's a whole lobbying. The cosmetics industry has a whole lobbying that's sort of like a self. I mean, it's almost self-regulated. And so that's always interesting when you go in there and they talk about, well, all these things are totally safe and you know that they're not. Some of the bigger companies have taken action. I think those that understand that it is time for change. Whether they're doing it behind the scenes reluctantly or not, there are companies that are trying to move the needle. I think where the bigger companies have been more focused on. They're more focused on sustainability. They know that the consumer is demanding them to be sustainable in packaging, carbon footprint. And I think they've made, some of the big companies have made huge strides there. They've been less aggressive on the ingredients. And part of it is.

• 47:49Gregg Renfrew?

  And you know, people always say not to use this as an example, but I think it's a good one. If I were to be running Coca-Cola today and someone said, okay, create healthy Coke. I want it to taste exactly the same. I want it to sparkle in the same way in my mouth or whatever. Good luck making that with safe ingredients, right? I mean, it's just not, you know, I don't know how they do that. It's the same thing in cosmetics, you know, a scent, a texture, all those things are really ingredient dependent. It's not easy for them to switch out ingredients. So they tend to then focus their efforts on sustainability as opposed to ingredients.

• 48:18Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, it's, it's one thing when you're talking about deodorant or toothpaste, but the typical customer or consumer that goes into, you know, the Sephora's of the world, like, they're not thinking about, they're not thinking about toxicity at all. They're just like, oh, I like that color.

• 48:34Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, they're like, I want to look sexy on Saturday night.

• 48:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 48:36Gregg Renfrew?

  Right. Most people, I mean, I mean, increasing, the younger generation, obviously, people are more aware now than they were before. And, you know, Sephora's taken a position on clean, which I appreciate. It's, I think that most people are, I want to look younger. I want to, I don't want to have acne. I want to look sexy. I want to feel beautiful. They're not, they're not worried about it. Or I don't want to smell. I don't want like, I don't want to get sunburned. I mean, these are, these are things that people are thinking about and they're not thinking, oh, gosh, I hope I don't get cancer from this ingredient. And look, I don't know, it's, I always say to everyone, I don't mean to be an alarmist. It's not that I know that moment in time when a cell goes from being healthy to unhealthy. And I'm not saying that if you use a toxic lotion, that you're inevitably going to get sick. But we do know that the, you know, the, these chemicals, you know, combined, you know, we put, we can put hundreds of chemicals on our bodies

• 49:21Gregg Renfrew?

  before we even walk out of the bathroom in the morning. And people aren't thinking about that and the cumulative impact of small doses of toxic chemicals. We don't know exactly, we know it's linked to these issues. We don't know exactly what thing triggers it.

• 49:34Rich Roll?

  Right. There's, there's the eventual health outcome of long-term persistent use. But there's also the environmental impact of the manufacturing of these things. So talk a little bit about that. Like, what goes on behind the scenes at a typical, conventional... You know, cosmetics company in the processing of these products, like what is the runoff? What, you know, what happens to the environment as a result of?

• 50:01Gregg Renfrew?

  I think where I think it's not so much the processing in terms of actually what happens in the plant in terms of moving through the systems that, you know, batch things and heat things and move them where where I think that you see the environmental impact of the cosmetics industry in general is in a couple of ways. And I think like anything else, when you're using harmful chemicals, they pollute the waterways. When you, when you actually go to get rid of your products, you know, they're considered to be toxic. I mean, it's amazing. You have toxic waste, you know, you go to go throw things away. So they're

• 50:34Rich Roll?

  I'll put it on my skin, but you can't put it in the garbage.

• 50:37Gregg Renfrew?

  Right. It's another, it's considered hazardous materials. I mean, it's unbelievable. I mean, they're, they're, I mean, therein lies the contradiction. We are putting in, we are throwing things away under hazardous material nomenclature. And yet we're actually allowed to put it on our bodies. So I think that's the crazy thing. But I do think that what we look at right now, you know, as a company, when we look at supply chain is obviously we look at, we're looking very much at our carbon footprint, our uses of materials and packaging, the recyclability, which is super challenging in the beauty industry, and trying to use better, better things and trying to work with, you know, institutions to find safer alternatives for the, for the health of the earth. A lot of plastic is used in cosmetics and we've been trying to move away from that as, as

• 51:19Gregg Renfrew?

  are many. But I do think it's also for us, you know, we're what's called a B corporation. People plan a profit. We have been since the beginning. We have to put in emphasis all three of those pillars. It's not just, it has to be triple bottom line. And so when we look at the supply chain now, we look at, you know, human rights issues. We look at our people being paid a fair wage. Are, you know, we've just recently taken on MICA as a major initiative. That's a very dirty secret of the beauty industry. So most of the MICA is being, you know, mined with illegal or forced labor or child labor in India and Japan and China and places like that. And so one of the things that we're really focused on is, is taking the consumer through this journey of how we actually Creates systemic change in these communities that desperately need the jobs because they

• 52:03Gregg Renfrew?

  need to put food on the table, but they're putting people who are not getting paid. I mean, it's a scary, sketchy situation out there. And we're really, we've just, our team just got back last week from India where we're actually going to hope to be the first company to actually audit all of our minds and then do something about this issue. And it's not just cosmetics, it's also automotive and electronics, but we need to change this situation. So we look at that as like, how does it impact? Or, you know, palm oil and, you know, is it sustainably harvest? And what are we doing? Those are all the things that we look at every single day. It's exhausting.

• 52:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, the fair working conditions, all of that. I think it's an amazing opportunity, you know, on the, on the education tip, like to illuminate what actually goes on. And to the extent that you can do that completely transparently is an amazing service. But I think it also is smart business sense because it engenders, you know, loyalty and trust in your, in your customers.

• 52:56Gregg Renfrew?

  I think it does. I think that one of the things that is difficult, though, is that people don't understand the complexity of it. And I certainly wouldn't have, I certainly didn't before I started to build this business. But, you know, it's everything from how do you create the performance expectations of the consumer? Because at the end of the day, if you're not meeting her or his expectations,

• 53:15Rich Roll?

  Doesn't matter.

• 53:15Gregg Renfrew?

  They won't use the product. If you take a deodorant and you feel like you still smell an hour later or whatever, you're not going to use that deodorant anymore. So that's really important. We have to do that. We have to look at the ingredients and make sure that they are, you know, not, you know, that we've taken a couple thousand ingredients and said, these are, these are on our restricted list. We have to make sure they're not there. We're testing for trace contaminants, trace heavy metals. Then you get to the packaging, you make sure it actually works with the formula and then is not leaching toxic chemicals back into the products. And then you've got to look up and down the supply chain. What is the carbon, you know, footprint? What is the impact of this? How are people being treated? How are, where are those ingredients coming from around the world? I mean, it's, it's a full-on job. And we've just begun to scratch the surface of what we can do. But I do think we, you know, we talk about it internally. You can't just say, well, we're

• 54:00Gregg Renfrew?

  going to reduce secondary cartons. We did that this year and we'll save, you know, a million, you know, a million less secondary cartons will go out. But it's like, how do you actually get to the root of the problem and change the world?

• 54:10Rich Roll?

  Right. And these things are infinitely more complicated than

• 54:14Gregg Renfrew?

  Incredibly.

• 54:15Rich Roll?

  People realize.

• 54:15Gregg Renfrew?

  Incredibly. And so sometimes I think That consumers can be unforgiving because they're also being misled by companies who are saying that they're perfectly pure, they're this and that. They just don't, they don't know it. And that's not their fault. I didn't either.

• 54:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I would imagine it's the kind of thing, the more you learn about it, the more you realize how difficult it is to do it right, you know, and the sort of average, modestly informed consumer has a very binary perspective, like, well, just don't do it, you know, like, don't do that thing. Well, if we don't do that, then this happens and this, you know, like, in order to like, create a viable business that you can grow to scale, you're going to have these compromises. And I'm sure there's a lot, you know, like, do we do this? Do we not do this? It's gotta be really difficult.

• 54:56Gregg Renfrew?

  We've focused on a couple of things since the beginning. First and foremost, our platform, our primary platform is, is this ingredient safe for human health? And we're less focused on source. We're about 85% natural, but we do use some man-made ingredients that we think are safe for health. And that was a position we took. And we do believe that performance is critically important. And we do try to, what we've said all along is that it's about progress, not perfection. We're not perfect. But what you can count on is we're going to tell you the truth. We're going to tell you exactly what we're putting in our products. You can make an informed choice. And we're not going to do what a lot of companies do. For example, you know, sometimes people will criticize us because we use preservatives. And preservatives are toxic. And by, you know, nature, they're meant to kill, right? But you don't want mold and bacteria growing on your skin either.

• 55:40Gregg Renfrew?

  And so there's a balance there. But, you know, they'll say, oh, well, that company's preservative free. And I'll say, no, they just, they just know the loopholes. And one of the loopholes is that you can take, you can pre-preserve raw materials, and then extract them, and then not have to claim preservatives, even though the preservatives are in there. And these are the little tricks of the trade. So we're trying to say, look, we're being incredibly upfront. And we're going to take you along this journey as we make things better. And we're hoping that all these companies follow our lead. And, you know, you know that we're the real deal. I mean, that's all, that's all that we can do.

• 56:10Rich Roll?

  What are some of the other dirty little secrets that people don't know?

• 56:13Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, I do think fragrance is a really big issue, because people have no idea that most of the, or many of the most offensive chemicals, like phthalates. Phthalates are also found in, you know, vinyl shower curtains, in that new car smell you have. But those things that bind that onto your skin, that scent onto your skin, are really, really bad, endocrine disrupting chemicals. They so closely mimic the body's

• 56:36Gregg Renfrew?

  Natural systems that the body doesn't know to reject them. So I think that, you know, people don't realize that under international IP law that you don't have to claim any of the ingredients in your fragrance because it's considered proprietary. And that's one big one that I think that people don't know. I think also people don't know that they can say that they're formaldehyde free, but there are, you know, in certain combinations, there, there, it can present in other ways. And so, you know, they, they don't, they don't know any of these things.

• 57:04Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 57:04Gregg Renfrew?

  But, but look, I don't, I don't, my goal is not to scare people. What I, what I do hope is that people, you know, will use resources available to them, like the Environmental Working Group has something called the Skin Deep Database, or they can go to BDCounter.com and just print out our never list. Just look at those, those few, those few chemicals and things that you really don't want and just make sure they're not in your products.

• 57:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 57:31Rich Roll?

  So one of the cornerstones of your whole thing is this never list, right? Which is a list of how many things are on it now, like?

• 57:38Gregg Renfrew?

  I mean, the one that's public facing, yeah, I mean, there's about 2,000 that...

• 57:41Rich Roll?

  Of things that'll never find their way in your products, right? And then the other thing is, I mean, your greatest asset, and, and I'm, I'm sure, you know, an incredible, like, Archimedes lover on the education and advocacy front, is all of your independent contractors. Like, you made a specific decision about this business plan, about how you wanted to empower other women to be the, basically, the, you're the face of the company, but they're kind of the secondary face of the company to sell these products. But there's something cool about having this army of people that are passionate about what you do and the products that you guys create, who can then also descend on their

• 58:24Rich Roll?

  local governments or come to Washington to push for this kind of change.

• 58:28Gregg Renfrew?

  When I started Beauty Counter, I really wanted to create a movement and the only way to power a movement is through people. And I, I also knew that in the beauty industry specifically, but, but we're seeing it happen. I mean Barney's just, you know, announced that they were closing, that these department stores were going to go out of the

• 58:45Rich Roll?

  Barney's closing? Wow.

• 58:46Gregg Renfrew?

  Done, over. Yep. And I think it's a sign of the times, which is that most consumers today are wanting to build direct relationships with brands. We knew that we had a story to tell and it was a story that was best told person to person, whether that happens physically or digitally, it doesn't matter. But we needed to tell the story of the need for safer ingredients and what was really going on in our industry. And so we, we knew that going to department stores and that old school way of doing business wasn't going to work for us. And a friend of mine said, have you considered, you know, using independent consultants? I, I knew nothing about it. I think my original answer was like, hell no. Like I, I don't know that business. I come out of the retail world. But when I started to look at it, I thought, this is amazing. If you think about things that have changed, you know, mothers against drunk driving, or people advocating for, you know, no smoking

• 59:29Gregg Renfrew?

  on airplanes or seat belts. And these are things that have been powered by women and women, when they care about an issue, can really make a lot of noise and actually can affect change. And it just happened to be a moment in time where we had a proposition that was valuable to women and, and, and also an opportunity for them to create, to gain financial independence, or, or at least to be a, an equal partner to their spouse or partner. And I think that's been the true unbelievable silver lining of Beauty Counter for me, is getting to know tens of thousands of women, empowering them economically and watching them thrive through, through being able to be educators in their communities, to be able to sell products that they believe in, to be able to turn to their husband or partner and say, hey, I've got dinner tonight, or we can't afford this private school education,

• 1:00:11Gregg Renfrew?

  or go back to school shopping comfortably for the first time in years. And, and, and then take that one step farther to say, and I'm also changing the laws, and I'm out there on the state and federal level, marching side by side with people who care about this issue. And I'm going to leave a legacy for, you know, many generations to come. That's been a really powerful proposition and probably the best thing that we've done to date.

• 1:00:30Rich Roll?

  How many are there now?

• 1:00:31Gregg Renfrew?

  We currently have a 45,000 women and men selling products.

• 1:00:34Rich Roll?

  It is an army.

• 1:00:35Gregg Renfrew?

  It is an army.

• 1:00:36Rich Roll?

  How did you do that? I mean, you've grown this thing. As far as I can tell, without like any advertising also, right?

• 1:00:44Gregg Renfrew?

  It's just the power.

• 1:00:45Rich Roll?

  How did this happen?

• 1:00:46Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, I think that people care about things that matter right now. There's a purpose to it. And I think that there are so many people wanting to get behind something that's bigger than they are individually. And, you know, we literally, I mean, it's sort of the way I started selling, I mean, cleaning houses on Antucket. I called every single real estate broker on Antucket and asked them if they'd give me a chance. And when I started Beauty Counter, I literally went to cities with myself and a couple of teammates. And I literally got up and would tell them what I was doing. I would tell them what I had learned. I told them why I thought it was important for themselves and their house. And I asked them to join me. And I always ask everyone to join me. And whether that means you're just texting your member of Congress, you're buying a product or you're selling product with us, we want you to be part of our movement. And we think that it's important. So I literally organically went out and just talked to as many people as I could.

• 1:01:30Rich Roll?

  Who was the first person that you got on board?

• 1:01:33Gregg Renfrew?

  There was, well, I worked, well, you know, the first, the first person that began to sell the product was a woman in Fall River, Massachusetts, who had worked previously with my partner Gina. But it was a lot of it was my friends. It was like my stepsister, my college roommate. You know, like in the beginning, it was just people I knew that, that either wanted to earn some money, needed to earn some money, or just cared so deeply about this issue. The ones that are the most successful are both. They're encouraged by being part of business and they also care deeply about this issue.

• 1:02:02Rich Roll?

  There is a weird, I mean, this is, what is the difference between this and like the MLM? You know, like when you, when you say MLM or you think of some of the bigger MLMs out there, there's always kind of like a weird like, what is that really? Like, you know, the word pyramid scheme gets thrown around and I don't think that's quite fair. There's a lot of, you know, fantastic, successful MLM companies out there that are hardly pyramid schemes. But I think that what you're doing is, it has similarities to that, but it's, it's different in a lot of ways.

• 1:02:31Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. You know, it's funny because when I said to you earlier that my immediate reaction to independent consultants was hell no, I had that very negative bias against the MLM or specifically the network marketing side of it. You know, if you look at the business of direct to consumer through independent consultants, on one end of the spectrum, you have a company back, let's just go back 20 years. You had a company like Avon that really only paid people on the sale of product. And that was how you made your money, either sold or you didn't. And then you had other companies like Amway that wasn't about the product. It was all about the business opportunity. And I think what gave people A negative feeling about the industry was that for me to say, hey, Rich, if you give me $500, I'm going to show you how to make $5,000.

• 1:03:09Rich Roll?

  Right. It's like this get rich quick scheme.

• 1:03:11Gregg Renfrew?

  Absolutely. And I think that for us, I, you know, when I thought about selling through independent consultants, I wanted to do things differently for two reasons. One, I didn't, I didn't want there to be that negative bias. And we have moments where people say that, but at the end of the day, we are in the business of educating and selling product. And yes, you can build a team and you can make money off of a team up to a few people beneath you in the exact same way that it happens in a corporation, that the CEO of Goldman Sachs is going to be making money on the efforts of the other people, but they're primarily spent, you know, paid on their own, on their own success or lack thereof. That's the way that we've set this up. But I think it's always been about selling product because that's, you know, and in retailing, which we always, we always say we're a direct to retail model, is the exchange of goods,

• 1:03:54Gregg Renfrew?

  whether it happens in a physical store or through people. But I think also, you know, in today's market, you have to meet the consumer where he or she wants to shop. And so for us, from day one, it was always, we have an independent e-commerce business. We have our independent consultants who are our backbone. We now have retail stores. We've sold through retail partnerships. So we always felt that to move away from whatever that pyramid thing was and move into where the world has gone today, we needed to empower these people, but also help them by creating an ecosystem that made sense for the consumer. And it's worked really well.

• 1:04:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you're firing on all of those cylinders now. The skeezy thing with the MLM stuff comes in, you know, on the shoulders of that kind of get rich, quick idea where it's all about like building this team because that's where you make your money. It's all, it's all about the money and it's not about the product.

• 1:04:44Gregg Renfrew?

  I wish, sometimes I wish our consultants were more about the money. I was always about it, but they're always like, I'm an educator. I'm like, I know, but you could also sell some product. I think at the end of the day, the, you're absolutely right. I think it's, it's the selling an opportunity versus selling product. For us, it's always been about the product was the solution to the problem because again, we could have just been a nonprofit organization, but if we'd been that, we would have told you all the problems of the world, but we would not have provided you with a solution. And so we really wanted to create a consumer facing brand that was focused on the solution powered by people. And I do think that, I will say this, you know, one of the things that disappoints me consistently around this business model or this sort of negative bias thoughts that people have about it is that 99% of these companies are great, honest, upfront, you know, upstanding citizens of

• 1:05:27Gregg Renfrew?

  the of the corporate world. And, you know, somehow we don't punish the banks even though they've done tons of things that are super corrupt. And I think at the end of the day, most, I would say, average, middle and upper middle income Americans are struggling to make ends meet right now. And to the extent that I can help, you know, create a platform upon which women and men can be, you know, home with kids who are sick, or be be able to be present with their children, or care for people who elderly who are sick, or have a side gig because they're, you know, back in the day, I would have loved that side gig, you know, when I had that credit card debt and I had to go find a new job. And I think that if we would get more behind applauding people for taking initiative to help support their families and worry less about what old companies did at one point in time, I think the the country would be a better place.

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The companies that have adopted that model, they sort of stay in that lane. And if you're a retail-based business, you kind of go retail, then to online, but you were, you're you're doing all of these business models at once. It's interesting. Now, how many retail stores do you have now?

• 1:06:29Gregg Renfrew?

  So we don't have many right now. We have one in New York. We're opening one in Los Angeles. We have one in Denver. We have, and then we've got pop-ups. We have a pop-up right now in Boston. We had a pop-up on, well, we've had one in Nantucket for a couple of years. We've done pop-ups outside of Manhattan. And we're going to be doing more of them because what we've found is, it's interesting, because we all live on our phones, but everyone is searching for community and purpose. And and what's been amazing about these stores, whether they're pop-up or long-term ones, is they've become a community center for our clients, our consultants. It's the community at large of Beauty Counter. And people gather, and they gather, and they have fun trying and playing with product. They they sell product. They they talk to people about the business, and they just have fun with one another. And people move to new cities, and they go to find Beauty Counter in Denver,

• 1:07:14Gregg Renfrew?

  and all of a sudden, they have a home, and they've got a place to go. And that's been amazing. So I think, I think retail is going to play in the in the future, an incredibly important part, and it's incredibly supportive of our consultant network as well.

• 1:07:23Rich Roll?

  I saw the one in Denver when I was there.

• 1:07:26Gregg Renfrew?

  You didn't?

• 1:07:26Rich Roll?

  I sent market picture. I was running, and I ran by it. And then we happened to be in New York when you were

• 1:07:31Gregg Renfrew?

  That's right. It was fun.

• 1:07:32Rich Roll?

  at your store in in Lower Manhattan. And we popped in, and it was, it was like a cocktail party in there.

• 1:07:38Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. Well, you know, I think it's nice. I think one of the things that's been really fun for me in beauty, building Beauty Counter, is having the opportunity to connect with these women and to meet them and to get to know them. And when when I end up in a city, they'll come out, and they'll come out to say thank you. You know, It's funny because they will come out for a cocktail or they'll come out for a green juice or they'll come in the morning, they'll come at night, they'll drive for many hours. And what they often will say is, I just thank you for allowing me to be part of a community that's moving the needle and thank you for helping me take care of my family. And oftentimes, more times than not, the women who are part of our community have been touched some way with the health side of it. And I remember a woman who was in Washington with me a few years ago said, I may have stage four breast cancer and I may or may not overcome this

• 1:08:23Gregg Renfrew?

  battle. I probably won't, but I know that it will not be all for naught, that I will have done something important and that my children will be proud of me for fighting for laws that protect them in the future. And that's something that's incredibly powerful.

• 1:08:34Rich Roll?

  Right. Like, it's not just a side hustle. Like, it's infusing their lives with purpose that kind of extends beyond their own bank account.

• 1:08:44Gregg Renfrew?

  Absolutely. But it's also okay. We women, especially we women, need to tell each other it's also okay to make money. Because at the end of the day, we all have bills to pay and money does not fall off of trees. And what I've found that's been super cool is the shift in the relationships, partner to partner, spouse to spouse, when two people are earning an income and two people can say, hey, let's do this together as a team and not one person holding all the purse strings and the power in the relationship. The shift in dynamics between husband and wife or partners when both of you are contributing, even if it's one's a lot more than the other, it still allows you to have those conversations, hey, let's do this together. And I think that partnership, we all know marriage is difficult. I mean, mine's perfect, of course, and so is my husband. If you ask my mother-in-law,

• 1:09:27Gregg Renfrew?

  my husband Mark is perfect. But marriage is difficult, but if you're doing it together as a team, it makes it a hell of a lot easier. And I think that's the thing that's been super cool for me to watch is women who've said, hey, my husband was not into this at all, but wow, we were actually able to get my daughter to summer camp. And thank you so much for that gift for both of us. And then you hear the husband saying, wow, I see a spring in her step I haven't seen for years. She feels like she's part of meaningful change. Thank you so much. That's awesome.

• 1:09:52Rich Roll?

  Let's talk about you as a CEO.

• 1:09:56Gregg Renfrew?

  Okay, let's do it.

• 1:09:57Rich Roll?

  We've established that you're very direct. No, listen, I mean, I think it's, it's one thing to start like, oh, I'm going to start a natural skincare line or cosmetic line. There are lots of kind of little boutiquey type brands out there, but it's, it's, it's another thing altogether to achieve this at scale, right? Which is what you're going for and what you've achieved. And, you know, just walking the halls of your, your office, like, you know, how many people work in that? I mean, you're-

• 1:10:27Gregg Renfrew?

  I think we have about 260 or 70.

• 1:10:30Rich Roll?

  You know, it's a, you're shouldering a huge amount of responsibility. And I would imagine you probably spend a, you know, a fair amount of time thinking about,

• 1:10:41Rich Roll?

  you know, how you communicate to the world as a woman CEO and what that means and the kind of downstream impact of whatever comes out of your mouth or how you behave on, you know, the next generation of future female executives and entrepreneurs.

• 1:11:00Gregg Renfrew?

  I, I think that, well, first of all, I think it's an honor and a privilege to be able to lead an organization and that's not lost on me. I mean, I think that you, to be a successful CEO, in my opinion, in today's world, you have to have a relatively high level of humility. You have to know that you are there to serve. I do believe very strongly in servant leadership. I do believe I'm there to serve them and it's not about me, it's about them and how do I-

• 1:11:23Rich Roll?

  Well, I went on your website, the Beauty Counter website, I couldn't find a picture of you.

• 1:11:27Gregg Renfrew?

  I know, I know. It's because I, you know, it's because I look so tired today.

• 1:11:30Rich Roll?

  It's like even if, you know, our story or our mission and, and, and there's a very conscious, there was a very conscious decision to not, you know, have your bio or make it about you.

• 1:11:39Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, I don't think it's about me. I do think it's about working, you know, I am an ordinary person who's able to do extraordinary work when I work side by side with, with, you know, tens of thousands of people. And I think we're all ordinary, but we can do great things together. I think that as a woman, I think, you know, one of the things that I've been talking about a lot lately, in, with my friends over dinner or out in public places, is just that we've got to do a better job of supporting one another as women and the choices we make and, and not assuming that, that because you are a CEO or that you're a powerful business person, that you're, that you're a bitch or that you're tough. Like, that word, you know, it's hard because you want to be liked. As a woman, you want to be liked, but, but yet-

• 1:12:21Gregg Renfrew?

  If you were trying to please everyone all the time, you you're not going to be a really strong leader, but then oftentimes, if you're a strong leader, you're considered to be you're tough in a way that a man would be powerful and strong. And I've been trying to figure out that and how I balance that for myself, both both in my social like life and in my professional life. And, you know, it's interesting when I when I feel that I'm most effective as a leader is when I'm the most transparent and vulnerable, both to our community at large, but also to our corporate team to say, look, like, I'm going there after this and we're, you know, we're it's the end of the year and people are exhausted and stressed and I don't think it's I'm not sure everyone in the corporate office is really happy today. Like, I don't think that they are. But but acknowledging that and acknowledging, look, I'm trying to balance a husband, three

• 1:13:06Gregg Renfrew?

  children, leading all of you. I don't get it all the, you know, right all the time, but I'm doing my best. And I think we need more women out there that are telling the true story, which is you can have it all, just not in the same day. And there's a lot of pressure on us to be perfect all the time. So, you know, what gives? And, hey, why don't you just like cut me a little slack and and support my my decision to work? Or in the same way that I might support your decision not to work. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's there's a lot of chatter out there about women being leaders. And, you know, I think this is a moment that we need to take advantage of, but we need to support one another.

• 1:13:37Rich Roll?

  Right. So what is the temperature of that support right now? Like, I've heard you talk about the kind of competitiveness amongst women that can be counterproductive. Is that fair? Like, I don't.

• 1:13:52Gregg Renfrew?

  Hundred percent. I mean, I I do think that there are there are, I mean, there are a lot of wonderful things that women will do for one another. But what I have found to be true in general, gross generalization, is that many of the most powerful women are not really pro-women women. So you have to find the ones that genuinely want to support your and your effort to change the world. And I think that they are, you know, I always say I spend a lot of time on panels and in conferences with women who are kind of just men in skirts. They're not able, they're trying to project this perfect, polished, I look beautiful, I act beautiful, I'm super smart, and I just don't think that's what women are craving today. I think my type of leadership is to say, actually shit, I literally like had the biggest fight with my husband an hour ago and I forgot to put

• 1:14:35Gregg Renfrew?

  the lunch in my kid's lunchbox, but I'm here today. I actually don't want to be here right now, I'm really exhausted and I don't feel well, but I'm here because I believe in what I'm doing and I told you I was gonna be here and I'm here. And being present in that moment and just being honest about it, I feel like people are so thankful to be given permission to say it isn't all perfect today. And some days you do feel great and sometimes you don't, or to admit, wow, maybe I changed five times, I also can feel insecure. I think we put women on this pedestal that are, you know, a lot, I mean, forget celebrities, if you look at powerful women, they always like present perfection, but that's just not how they're feeling inside. They feel super scared and insecure half the time, and so why not tell people how you feel?

• 1:15:10Rich Roll?

  Right, but, but they do need permission to do that. You know, I would suspect that that projection is a function of the fact that they feel like that's what they have to do in order to measure up because of the double standard, right? Like, you know, I remember you saying, you know, nobody asks the, the male CEO like how he balances his job with his kids, right? Like, that's a question that you're gonna get nine times out of 10, and it's not fair, but that's the way it is. So that armor is really a reflection to kind of immunize that woman against that kind of, that, that battery of questions or that kind of scrutiny.

• 1:15:47Gregg Renfrew?

  I think that you're absolutely right, and I do, you know, I like to talk about this because I think it's a conversation that needs to be had. And by, and by the way, like, there are so many men in my life that are so important to me and have made me who I am today and have helped me with my business. So it's not just about women, but I do think there's such an opportunity for women to lead. And, you know, when I go, when I go to say the side of the soccer field or flag football field with my son or daughter, and then I have these women that come up and be like, oh, you're Georgie's mom. Oh, my gosh, we've been in class with you for five years, you know, whatever. Oh, it's so nice to finally see you. This, this sort of condescending, patronizing-

• 1:16:23Rich Roll?

  Like, we're here all the time.

• 1:16:24Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, and I think, I'm a great mom. Like, I think I am a great mom.

• 1:16:27Rich Roll?

  Let's just say for the record, Georgie is-

• 1:16:32Rich Roll?

  One of, if not the most remarkable girls I've ever met. I mean, that kid is just so talented and incredible. I'm like, she blows me away every time I see her. She's gonna rule the world.

• 1:16:45Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, you know, it's funny because someone said about my oldest daughter, Phoebe, my, one of my best friends said, Phoebe's just like you, Greg, just smarter and much better looking. And then Georgie comes along, my son Jamison is like, you know, just like the tender soul. But you know, when I say, when I'm on the side of a soccer field and someone says that, or they say, well, who's taking care of your children, Greg? I want to say like, are you kidding me? Like, I am so present. I know exactly what's going on in my kids' lives every single day. And we've got to allow women to say, I can be a great mom and a great wife and a great businesswoman. And let me do this and watch me shine as opposed to judging that decision. I don't judge people that stay home and I don't judge people that work.

• 1:17:21Rich Roll?

  But doing all of that free of that expectation of perfection that gets laced upon you.

• 1:17:27Gregg Renfrew?

  Yes. I mean, sometimes I'll go in, I mean, I took an award the other day. We won this beauty brand and I was saying, I was exhausted. So I said, I got up on stage and said, you know, thank God the lights are dim. I have bags under my eyes and I run a beauty business. So don't, don't judge my products. I'm just tired. I think you have to talk about it, you know, and just say, look, I'm exhausted, but I'm doing this because I think it's important.

• 1:17:47Rich Roll?

  What do people not understand about, you know, someone who's running a company of the scale and size that you do? Like, what is the, what's the behind the scenes? Because we've kind of lionized the entrepreneur and the, we're in this sort of CEO worship culture right now. I don't know how we got here, but CEOs and entrepreneurs are like movie stars now. And, and everybody wants to be one. But what is the truth? Like, what's the hidden truth here? You know, like that, that we might not know from somebody who walks the walk?

• 1:18:20Gregg Renfrew?

  I did, I did say to a friend of mine who is a big actress in the last year, I said, yeah, I mean, I'm just like you, except for I didn't get the looks or the paycheck. But yeah, exactly. You know, I'm that big celebrity CEO. I think that, I think that what people don't realize is how unbelievably lonely it is. And, and I say that because if you're at the top of an organization, who are you turning to? You know, I have an incredible Executive coach, Khalid, who I love, who's been instrumental to my success over the last number of years, but I do think it's really lonely. I mean, it's lonely at work and it's lonely at home. You know, I have a husband who has an incredibly successful career and you know him well, Mark, and he's an amazing husband, but he's not an entrepreneur. He doesn't often understand what I'm going through in the internal, you know, what's going on in my head. You know, I want to lie back at, you know, 10:30 at night and

• 1:19:05Gregg Renfrew?

  say, hey, you know, did you end up having to fire that person? And then my, you know, brain spins for the next door. You, you gonna be able to make your numbers this month? You know, and he's just trying to be supportive and I'm like, are you kidding me?

• 1:19:14Rich Roll?

  You're awake all night.

• 1:19:15Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, it's crazy, but I think it's really, really lonely. I think also, as I said earlier, this as a woman trying to, wanting to be liked, but knowing you have to be strong and trying, and it hurts. It really hurts when people say, you're tough bitch or whatever. I don't think I am. I'm an incredibly loyal friend. I actually am incredibly sensitive. I think most, most CEOs are really sensitive and really insecure and people just don't realize that because they project confidence, but that's not how they're feeling inside a lot of the time.

• 1:19:42Rich Roll?

  Interesting. So what are, what are the big obstacles that you face now?

• 1:19:46Gregg Renfrew?

  I mean, the greatest challenge for me always is the challenge of people, managing people, their wants, their needs, their expectations, whether it's the independent consultants or the corporate team, my investors. Everyone has their own personal agenda, as they should, as do I, but it's hard to, to balance all that and to be really good at it all the time. I make mistakes every single day. So I think that's probably one of our greatest challenges is how do we get an organization of people to move in unison when you're talking about, you know, tens of thousands of people and you've got a corporate team and you've got independent consultants and sometimes they may feel we're misaligned even though our intention is always to do well by our independent consultants. We make mistakes and it's very personal for them. And, you know, we'll, we'll look at numbers on a wall

• 1:20:29Gregg Renfrew?

  and say, did we make our month or are we as profitable as we want to? And they're like, look, I'm sitting in my kitchen in Kansas and my kid's sick and you screwed up that email and it blew my day. I mean, it, so that's been really challenging as we scale. And I think also tackling these issues, like when we take on things like MICA, these are not insignificant issues. And when you make a promise to the world that you're going to tackle this, you really got to be up for the fight. And it's like Everest in front of you and trying to figure out how to navigate sketchy places, physically corrupt people, you know, it's hard.

• 1:21:01Rich Roll?

  How do you keep your energy high for this?

• 1:21:05Gregg Renfrew?

  I think that I drink a lot of water. I exercise regularly.

• 1:21:09Rich Roll?

  What are your beauty secrets?

• 1:21:10Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, exactly. I don't have a lot of beauty secrets. I do think I will shamelessly plug our new counter timeline. It's been, it's been a game changer for my skin. But I mean, I think at the end of the day, I do this because I care deeply about what we're doing. I care about people and I care about our health and I, I want to grow old. I want my friends. I want to be there when my kids, you know, I had kids late. I want to be there when they're getting married or having babies and I want everyone I love to be healthy and safe. You know, I, I, there's, there's a, there's a movie called Love Actually that many people have seen that was about the holidays. And one of the things I've shown people a thousand times is that scene that Hugh Grant's voiceover, and it's a scene from Heathrow Airport. And it talks about, you know, when the, when the, when the planes crashed into the World Trade Center, which was a horrible day for our nation, that there

• 1:21:54Gregg Renfrew?

  weren't messages of hate, there were messages of love. And at the end of the day, we, that's all we care about is like life and those that we love and protecting those that we love. And so that is that the epicenter of everything that we do at Beauty Counter. And so when you know that that's your purpose, you're going to get out of bed in the morning.

• 1:22:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:08Gregg Renfrew?

  And you do.

• 1:22:09Rich Roll?

  And, and so what are your strategies or techniques for empowering the people that work beneath you?

• 1:22:18Gregg Renfrew?

  I think it's helping them understand that what they're doing is making a difference even in those dark days and showing them. I think one of the things I haven't done well, but I'm getting better at is, is showing those, telling them those stories, helping to develop them to be stronger leaders and, and just knowing that, that you're making a difference. I think if you, you know, if you look at surveys, corporate teams or independent consultants, however, people that are working, they want to know that the work they do is meaningful and is actually. Is purpose driven. I mean, increasingly, you hear people talk about that. They don't just want to, if you're going to spend that much time working, you want it to have an impact on the world that's positive. And so trying to shed light on what work we're doing, the progress that we are making, even when the days are dark, to say, look, it's not over, but we've done so many things well and

• 1:23:01Gregg Renfrew?

  impacted so many people's lives. And, you know, people should feel proud of that.

• 1:23:04Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:23:05Gregg Renfrew?

  And we try to have fun, you know, I don't take myself that seriously. Like, you know, we'll, once in a while, we'll have a drink cart come around, or we'll do goofy things in the office. You gotta like take a chill once in a while and settle into the stress and know like, this is a marathon, not a sprint. And it's okay to laugh. It's okay to, you know, not, you know, to make mistakes. We're gonna make mistakes all the time. Let's have fun while we're doing it.

• 1:23:24Rich Roll?

  For the average person, beauty counter products aside, when they go to the pharmacy or the, you know, cosmetic, the Sephora's of the world, and they're, they're trying to figure out what to buy or what to get, and they're reading these labels and they're trying to educate themselves, like, what are some of the worst offenders that they, I'm not talking about necessarily brand names, but like chemicals, or what can they identify that they should really, you know, pay more attention to?

• 1:23:50Gregg Renfrew?

  I think there are some chemicals, so anything that says paraben, methyl paraben, ethyl paraben, parabens are one. Fragrance, go shop fragrance free whenever you can in, in sunscreen, not to use a spray sunscreens, but to use mineral based sunscreen, not with the avobenzone and the oxybenzone. Not only, not only are they harmful to the health of people, but they are killing the coral reefs. There are things called pegs, E D T A. There, there are those things that you can see on labels that kind of stand out. And I think there are some great, you know, brands out there that, there are quite a few, and I think in Sephora, they've now done a clean group. And if, and if you go to a CBS or whatever, they're gonna, they're gonna tell you. I mean, you know, companies like Bird's Bees. And, and, and also, if you, if you have to make decisions, if you're looking

• 1:24:34Gregg Renfrew?

  at making a purchase and you have, you know, limited resources, I think you can just take a jar of organic coconut oil, or You think about the things that are going on your body more than the rinse offs. Like it's more important to worry about your body lotion or your sunscreen than the conditioner and your hair that's going to rinse out. And so you can prioritize your spend on the things that are really, your skin's your largest organ. So if you're covering yourself head to toe with a lotion that's going to seep into your skin and into your bloodstream, I'd be focusing on those things.

• 1:25:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How's the men's line?

• 1:25:03Gregg Renfrew?

  I think it's good. You know, the funny thing about them, people love the men's line Counter Man. It's been really successful in terms of people love it that you're using it. And I think oftentimes men think, you know, I always hear, well, I don't wear makeup. And I'm, I'm not talking about your makeup, guys. I'm talking about your shave cream, your deodorant. We're actually coming out with deodorant next year, which will be a huge win. But I somehow the women sometimes get scared about selling to men. I'm like, you're not selling to the men anyway. You're selling to the wife.

• 1:25:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the men are not buying this.

• 1:25:28Gregg Renfrew?

  Just go sell to your friends. And it's the same thing, you know, we, we need to take care of our men, too. They're just as important to this equation. And, you know, you have so many men who, who follow you. And, you know, I don't know if you know this, but just-

• 1:25:37Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of women, too. I think the, the audience is more women than men.

• 1:25:41Gregg Renfrew?

  Is it more? Well, good. Well, I'll tell to both, to both groups. I think this is important, you know, vis a vis men, you know, the sperm count in the US is down 50% over the last 25 years. And, you know, about 40% of male sperm is now defective. So if we don't think it's impacting men, it's absolutely impacting. It's impacting all of us. And so, you know, every one of us needs to be focused on our bodies and our safety and hopefully, you know, just knowing a little bit more. And I also think that, you know, I say there are the product we sell is beauty, but we're trying to sell a clean lifestyle, you know, a lifestyle that you live, Rich. And I think that just those little things like just wash your floors with water and vinegar, take your shoes off at the door, you know, get rid of the plastic containers over time. Don't use nonstick pans. I mean, there's some basic things that can make a difference in your life right out of the

• 1:26:26Gregg Renfrew?

  gate.

• 1:26:27Rich Roll?

  It's interesting when you think back to being kids and try to remember the cleaning products that you had in your house. And it was just a couple of things, right? But now the typical household, when you open up that pantry or look beneath the sink or whatever, there's like- Thirty bottles of all different kinds of stuff. And it's like, how did we get to this point? We've been sold this idea that you need this for this and this for that. And, and it's kind of insane.

• 1:26:54Gregg Renfrew?

  I was saying to my friend.

• 1:26:55Rich Roll?

  Apple cider vinegar and water.

• 1:26:56Gregg Renfrew?

  I know. And well, that's, that's what it is. Exactly. I mean, these things are really basic. I mean, I sometimes I'll be in the kitchen. I'll just put, you know, olive oil on my skin. I think, you know, it's funny because I have my friend, Leela Rose, was in town this morning. The one that originally wanted me to watch an inconvenient truth. And we're talking about, you know, going into schools and kids being, you know, my kids being served Pringles in their school. I'm like, guys, like, why are you training them to eat unhealthy foods? Like, just if you started from scratch with just healthy foods, they're not going to be looking for these things. We keep culturally programming people to make poor purchasing decisions for themselves. If you like Pringles, I'm sorry, it's just I'm not a big Pringles fan. But I think the idea that you, that less is more and that getting back to some of the basics is, is really important for people.

• 1:27:36Rich Roll?

  Right. And there's, well, the reason, look, there's huge vested interests in making sure kids continue to eat Pringles and these products find their way into schools, not by accident. You know, so you have to move these gigantic tectonic, you know, political and business plates in order to even get tiny changes that we already all agree upon enacted.

• 1:27:57Gregg Renfrew?

  Right.

• 1:27:57Rich Roll?

  And that's the difficulty. And that's what you face, you're facing in Washington and all of this. It's like, we all kind of agree that this is a good idea. This bill that was introduced in 2015 that still hasn't been up for vote.

• 1:28:11Gregg Renfrew?

  Exactly. I mean, getting people to take action is, is really, really difficult. And you're absolutely right. You've got these large companies that are, you know, they don't want the secret, the beauty secrets to be told. I mean, that entire beauty industry has been built on secrets. And we're saying, no, we need to build an entire thing on transparency and authenticity and, and no bullshit dialogue with our clients.

• 1:28:31Rich Roll?

  There's so many similarities to the food industry, you know, like the, in, in agriculture, there's ag gag laws that make it illegal to go inside these slaughterhouses and take photographs or videos because it's too threatening to the industry. So it's the antithesis of transparency, you know? And the, the idea that you're trying to shine a light on this and are met with resistance is bananas.

• 1:28:54Gregg Renfrew?

  It's, yeah, it can be scary sometimes trying to, I mean, shine a light on these things because, I mean, it can literally be scary. I mean, you know, shining a light on MICA, it's just, that's a scary thing to do. But, you know, someone has to do it and we're the people that are going to do it. And I think that. We deserve to have safe products.

• 1:29:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, certainly millennials and Gen Z, you know, these things are are much more important to the younger generations than they were to us when we were coming up. And that leaves me very hopeful about the future. And that purchasing power is so powerful, right? And that's really going to drive markets. And to the extent that you can, at a minimum, you know, serve the younger people that are coming up and make sure that you are, you know, meeting those transparency expectations and those sustainability expectations, et cetera, all the way down the line, that positions you for long-term success. Because I really think that is the future. And you're somebody who's established yourself as being able to forecast these things well in advance.

• 1:29:52Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, I do think that the future generations are depending on us to do the right thing. And they're they are demanding it of us, the younger generations. And we have no choice, you know, we have, we have to change. We have to figure out a way to lead businesses that are doing well and doing good simultaneously. There's, there's just got to be a better path forward. And I think that, you know, you speak about the food industry and, you know, someone said to me a couple of years ago, you think that clean beauty is a fad or a trend? And I said, no, the clean beauty is the future. It is the here and the now and the forever. And in the same way that no one's going to say, oh, please put all that food dye back in my mac and cheese. No one's going to say, oh, please put all these toxic chemicals, the numbing agents into my baby shampoo again. Let's just do the right thing.

• 1:30:36Gregg Renfrew?

  And, and I think one of them, my personal goals with beauty counter is to show that you can be successful as a B corporation, as a company that's doing well. Maybe we don't make as much money as other companies, but that's okay. Like, we can still be a, a, a strong financial, you know, business over time that, that will last forever. And, you know, I think that's, that's critically important to the future of commerce.

• 1:30:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I think with iterative innovation, you'll, you get to that point where, where the product that you're offering with natural ingredients becomes indistinguishable with, you know, what they've come to expect with the chemical laden version of that. In the same way, we're seeing that with food right now.

• 1:31:15Gregg Renfrew?

  Right. I always say to, you know, when people say, when are you going to stop? And to me, it's when we stop when our children and our children's children don't need to worry about reading the labels and the products that they use on their bodies every day.

• 1:31:26Rich Roll?

  Right. And when we're all grandparents and they say, remember when they used to put all that crazy stuff and you used to put it on your skin?

• 1:31:32Gregg Renfrew?

  I know. I can't, I can't wait for someone to be able to say that. Unfortunately, they, right now, they're still saying, why are you doing this?

• 1:31:37Rich Roll?

  It'll be like, you know, when you, when you watch Mad Men and, you know, the pregnant woman is smoking or whatever, and you're like, how did that happen? Right? I think we're going to look back. I'm hopeful and, and optimistic that that will be the case.

• 1:31:50Gregg Renfrew?

  I think that it's already happening. I mean, I have seen just an unbelievable amount of, you know, I mean, the changes that have happened in the beauty industry since I launched in March of 13, and even over the last two years have been pretty significant. And when you see all of the big guys talking about it now, you know that this is, they know this is here to stay. And there are, they're, they're going to be forced to change it. They're not going to be around.

• 1:32:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, there's a, but there's a difference between the greenwashing that you see where they make the marketing materials and the labels all kind of look like they're doing the right thing, or they say the right thing, but it's not actually the right thing.

• 1:32:26Gregg Renfrew?

  That goes back to that aloe thing. Here's your aloe product that has no aloe in it. And I know, I always say, you know, that's one of the things, you know, people said, well, why don't you have, you know, flowers and trees and leaves? I'm like, no, because that's always misleading. It's not about, it's not about pretending like you are. It's like, just, just give them a product that works, that's safe.

• 1:32:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:32:43Gregg Renfrew?

  Full stop.

• 1:32:44Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, let's, let's round this out. I think it would be good to, to leave people with a few words of wisdom laden from your experience to the budding entrepreneurs and solopreneurs and environmental activists out there. What is the advice that you commonly give to people who are coming up?

• 1:33:05Gregg Renfrew?

  I think that, and this is probably more geared towards women than men, but I think it's true of everyone, is that you genuinely have everything that you need to be an enormous success. And that it is about just a lot of hard work and that overnight success is like 10 years of 24/7. But I do think so many people doubt themselves and they, they listen to others. And I would be here to say, if you believe in something, You can do it and you've got this. You've absolutely got it. You just have to stay the course and know that there are going to be some dark moments in time.

• 1:33:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:36Gregg Renfrew?

  Which I don't think enough people are saying that, especially to women. I don't think enough people are saying you have everything you need to be successful. You've got what it takes. I think a lot of people doubt themselves and I'm always here to say, if your mom didn't tell you that, if your husband didn't tell you that or whatever, I'm here to tell you, you've got it. And I think that's a really important message. I also think that if you're trying to build something, your own personal self-awareness is important. Know where you're strong and know where you're weak and find people to support you in the areas in which you're not strong. Don't try to lean, you know, pretend you're good at everything as an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs do that a lot of the time. They don't want to show weakness or vulnerability. They're scared to admit that they don't have all the answers, but there's, no one has all the answers. And so to the extent that you can acknowledge where you're not as strong and then find people who can get you to those answers, that makes you a lot better.

• 1:34:20Rich Roll?

  Surround yourself with people who are more expert in those areas that you can also trust.

• 1:34:25Gregg Renfrew?

  Right. And trust your gut. I mean, I think of so many of the mistakes I've made along the way with Beauty Counter are the times in which, when I listened to people and I knew in my heart that they were, I was kind of, you know, even being bullied in my own company of people telling me that I was wrong or, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. And now I'm like, no bullshit. I'm gonna like stick with my gut. And if I think, you know, we have, we have something at Beauty Counter that I think has served us well. And so if people are running their own businesses or, you know, or even in your partnerships in life, you know, we have something we always say, are you willing to fall on your sword on this one? Like you cared this deeply about this issue or about this initiative, about this thing that you're willing to fall on your sword if you're wrong. And I've found that when people say yes, and I do it myself, we all do it now, that 99.9% of the time

• 1:35:07Gregg Renfrew?

  that people are right. And so, and when I say to the team, hey, guys, I know you can't see this, but just trust me. Trust me on this one. Those are the moments in which I know I'm right. And I do the same for my teammates.

• 1:35:17Rich Roll?

  And if you're not right and you fall on that sword, that's okay.

• 1:35:22Gregg Renfrew?

  That's okay too. I mean, you're gonna be wrong sometimes, but I do think most of the time people are right. And, and I also, you know, we talked about this a little bit earlier.

• 1:35:31Gregg Renfrew?

  And this isn't necessarily, these aren't words of wisdom, but I think it's so important just to remind people that you can be a great mom and work and be a great spouse and you can do all these things and maybe it's just not all in the same day. So we tend to put so much pressure on ourselves to be perfect all the time. You know, there are days when I'm not with my family and I'm FaceTiming them and then there are days when I'm completely home and not at the office. And I think that I want especially women to stay in the game and to know that they can do it, even if it's on a part-time basis, whatever they want to do, that staying in the game is important and that you can be great at both. And it's not, it doesn't have to be one or the other. They're not, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. I wish more people knew that and had the confidence to do both.

• 1:36:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's this pressure, not only to excel, but to have everything in perfect balance all the time, because that's the message that we've been, that we've been sold and we shoulder that ourselves, thinking like, we have to be the best parent and the best at everything, every single day, every hour of the day. And that's not life. Nobody's in that position. And then we beat ourselves up because on a particular day, we fell short in one of those categories.

• 1:36:39Gregg Renfrew?

  Right. Be there for the important moments in your business, be there for your improvements, moments in life.

• 1:36:44Rich Roll?

  Well, what you've created and the mission is super inspiring. I have so much respect for you. And I just also want to say for the record, you've been an incredible resource of advice and help for Julie in her, in her cheese line, Chrymoos. So thank you for that. Like she values your advice tremendously and you've been very, very helpful.

• 1:37:04Gregg Renfrew?

  So she's going to crush it. It's, it's pretty amazing.

• 1:37:07Rich Roll?

  It's pretty exciting.

• 1:37:07Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, I, again, I think women have to support women. That's really important to me. And so I'm always going to be there for her.

• 1:37:13Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. Well, come back and talk to me again sometime.

• 1:37:16Gregg Renfrew?

  Okay, thanks for having me.

• 1:37:17Rich Roll?

  Appreciate it. If you're digging on Greg, you can go to beautycounter.com or you can find her on Twitter.

• 1:37:23Gregg Renfrew?

  You'll find me on the website.

• 1:37:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you won't find her on the website.

• 1:37:25Gregg Renfrew?

  You'll find me on Instagram, maybe.

• 1:37:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. On Instagram, Greg Renfrew and Twitter as well. And if somebody's listening who wants to become involved with the company, how do they do that? They just go to your website and sign up? How does that work?

• 1:37:38Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, they can go to the website and sign up or they can always, you know, email our offices, [email protected]. We're always happy to talk to people.

• 1:37:45Rich Roll?

  Cool. All right. Well, thanks so much.

• 1:37:46Gregg Renfrew?

  Thanks.

• 1:37:47Rich Roll?

  All right. Peace. Plants.

• 1:37:52Rich Roll?

  Powerful that Greg Renfrew, right? Hope you guys enjoyed that. Do me a favor, hit Greg up on the socials. Let her know how this one went down for you. You can find her @GregRenfrew, two G's, G R E G G Renfrew on Twitter and on Instagram. And be sure to check out the show notes on the episode page to learn more about Greg and Beauty Counter, or just go to the Beauty Counter website, beautycounter.com. If you'd like to support our work here on the show, subscribe, rate and comment on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for all you Android users, or and/or YouTube for the visually inclined. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. I absolutely love seeing all the screen grabs on Instagram.

• 1:38:32Rich Roll?

  And of course, you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. I want to thank everybody who helped on the show today. Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production, show notes and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for videoing and editing this show for YouTube and all the short clips that we share on social media. Jessica Miranda for her graphics wizardry. Ally Rogers for portraits. DK for advertiser relationships and theme music by Analemma. Appreciate all of you. I don't take your attention for granted. I love you all and I will see you back here in a couple of days with the return of anti-aging maven David Sinclair, PhD. Here's a peek.

• 1:39:13Speaker 02

  Nobody has any reason to say that we have this clock that cannot be changed. In fact, what we've learned is that about 80% of our health in old age is due to our lifestyle and how we live, and only 20% is genetic. And actually, your genes are not your destiny. That's the good news. So what that means is it's up to you. And if you want to be frail, or to be honest, dead at 80, go for it. We know how to do that. Eat the cake, sit on your fat ass and watch movies. That'll get you there pretty quickly. The problem with today's world is... Marketing, branding, our own primeval brain. We just want to be relaxed. We want to be fed. We don't want to feel discomfort. And that's leading to a whole bunch of problems.

• 1:39:57Speaker 02

  And if we're not always telling our body things that could be problematic, our bodies don't care. They don't fight against disease. They don't fight against aging. So the bottom line is you've got to get out of your comfort zone, get your body out of its comfort zone.