291: Phil Demers Is The Walrus Whisperer

Philip Demers is a former professional marine mammal trainer at Marineland of Canada in Niagara Falls, Ontario. He is best known for his relationship with a captive walrus named Smooshi. In this conversation, Phil tells Smooshi's story, explains the animal cruelty that happens at various entertainment facilities, and highlights why animal ownership is such a big business. This episode was a fun one to record and if you find Phil's story compelling, please go support him and Smooshi at www.savesmooshi.com =============================== Blockset by BRD is your hosted blockchain infrastructure. Blockset enables enterprises and developers around the globe to deliver high-quality blockchain-based applications in a fraction of the time, at a fraction of the cost. Using the services provided by Blockset, businesses can build professional custody solutions, accurate and near real-time portfolio management solutions, auditing platforms, commercial block explorers, and much more: blockset.com =============================== Crypto.com is the only all-in-one platform that allows you to BUY / SELL / STORE / EARN / LOAN / INVEST crypto all from one place. Join over 1 million users currently using the Crypto.com app. Download and earn $50 USD using my code ‘pomp2020’, or use the link http://platinum.crypto.com/r/pomp2020 when you sign up for one of their metal cards today. =============================== Pomp writes a daily letter to over 45,000 investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy to understand language, while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at www.pompletter.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Anthony Pompliano?

  This is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off.

• 0:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Philip Demirz is a former professional marine mammal trainer at Marineland of Canada in Niagara Falls, Ontario. He is best known for his relationship with a captive walrus named Smushy. In this conversation, Phil tells Smushy's story. He explains the animal cruelty that happens at various entertainment facilities and highlights why animal ownership is such a big business. This episode was a fun one to record, and if you find Phil's story compelling, please go support him and Smushy at www/save smushy.com. Before we get into the episode, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. The first is Blockset by BRD. They're your hosted blockchain infrastructure. Blockset enables enterprises and developers around the globe to deliver high-quality blockchain-based applications

• 0:54Anthony Pompliano?

  in a fraction of the time at a fraction of the cost. Using the services provided by Blockset, businesses can build professional custody solutions, accurate and near-real-time portfolio management solutions, auditing platforms, commercial block explorers, and much more. Go check them out at blockset.com. Again, blockset.com. The next sponsor is Crypto.com. They are an only all-in-one platform that allows you to buy, sell, store, earn, loan, and invest crypto all from one place. You can join over 1 million users currently using the Crypto.com app. You can download it and earn $50 US dollars using my code POMP2020, or use the link in the description. Again, you can buy, sell, store, earn, loan, or invest crypto all from one place at the Crypto.com mobile

• 1:39Anthony Pompliano?

  app. When you sign up, you can also get one of their metal cards today. Head on over to Crypto.com or go download their mobile app. Lastly, don't forget that I write a daily letter to over 45,000 investors about business, technology, finance, and Bitcoin. I break down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at pompletter.com. Again, pompletter.com, or go click the link in the description. All right, let's get into this episode with Phil. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 2:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Alright guys, bang, bang. I'm super excited about this. Got Phil here. Thanks for doing this, man.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Oh, my pleasure. It's an honor to be here. So I'm the one who's appreciative.

• 2:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, this is a, gonna be a little bit of a different episode because we're not gonna spend so much time on finance or business-related stuff, but you just have a really cool story and I think that we can make some people get excited about walruses. So maybe let's start with your background specifically and then we'll get into kind of the fun stuff. But just like, where'd you grow up and kind of what was early life like?

• 3:21Speaker 02

  I'm from a small southern Ontario city called Welland in Canada and not a particularly well-known city other than maybe stands out for being rough, a little rough. So I sort of got my lumps there and eventually graduated to the medium-sized city tourist trap of Niagara Falls, which is where I would eventually find my employment at what was regarded as one of the more noted tourism places called Marineland. And I don't know, maybe we should, if we want to back it up a little bit, I suppose

• 4:05Speaker 02

  I can speak to what it is that led me to my employment at Marineland, but there's really not much to say. I was sort of one of these, I don't know, I guess, I didn't really know what it is that I wanted to do. Some people are born and they know they want to be chiropractors. I was born and I just knew I'd like to be outside and run around, you know, sort of be a bit of a shit disturber and whatnot, so. You know, in all of my sort of, in my, in my lost state of being, sort of fell ass backwards into this job that's, you know, back then you looked in the want ads. And so I was looking in the want ads and I found a marine mammals assistant trainers job. I thought, you know, it'd be a probably an impossible job to get. But, you know, I did go to school for, at

• 4:49Speaker 02

  the time, it was one of these six month programs, audio engineering and multimedia post-production, it was called back then, and in 2000, cost me a lot of money. And about eight months later, it was a free download on the internet, all of the software that I learned on. But nonetheless, Marine Land found that attractive on my resume. So, you know, whereas I thought I was not qualified for such a job, they thought, you know, we can, we can use you in-house to do some of the music production and work on the equipment. And then, you know, you seem to like animals, so this would be a fit. And, you know, that was back in 2000. And if we fast forward a little bit, in 2012, I quit. You know, it was a long time to, to work at Marine Land. Of course, there's, you know, I did love animals, tough

• 5:33Speaker 02

  job to leave. But fast forward then some, and here we are, 2020, and I'm still being sued for 1.5 million dollars for plotting to steal a walrus. And go.

• 5:46Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So, hold on a second. Give us an understanding, for those that don't know what Marine Land is, help people just understand kind of, you know, what is the organization? And then what does that actually look like on the ground?

• 6:01Speaker 02

  So, you know, Marine Land's been around a long time in Canada. It's actually one of its success stories. An immigrant had come to Canada with a little more than a shirt on his back, and by the name of John Holder, was the founder's name. He recently passed away a couple of years ago. But nonetheless, he built this place from the ground up, you know, with little or no help from anybody. It's really quite, it's quite a success story. The unfortunate fact, matter of fact, is the, this, the style of business that he created is not one that is

• 6:39Speaker 02

  You know, in two thousand, it doesn't have a place in two thousand twenty. So the man started with a, with a welding a cage and, and bringing in some sea lions. And then eventually that graduated to a larger land animals. He's, he, he began to expand his business. Uh, he basically had a massive zoo and then he found his, his niche, which were, uh, whales. And so much like SeaWorld in the States, it's, uh, Marine Land is just a place where you pay money to go watch whales and dolphins and walruses and sea lions perform, uh, to music. And, and in two thousand twelve and, and quite frankly, up until, or in two thousand and, and up until two thousand twelve, uh, this was a celebrated industry. You know, it really was. It was a thriving burgeoning, uh, business, but you know, not so much today.

• 7:25Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And so while you were there, like, what did you see? Uh, and was this like immediate from, from when you got started? Or, or did it take some time for you to kind of get a lay of the land? Um, and what did you see that just kind of, you know, really put you off, I guess?

• 7:41Speaker 02

  So I would say the first thing, the first day that I showed up, I, I was completely put off. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I mean, I, I found the facilities to be awful. And I mean, frankly, I thought the animals were sad, but then I didn't want to be, uh, anthropomorphic. I even, I didn't know nothing about whales. Um, so I didn't want to just attribute, uh, these emotions to what appeared to be sadness to me, but you know, these people that I was learning from seemed to have a grip of what was going on and they seemed to know that, uh, you know, a thing or two about this. And this was a celebrated industry. So I didn't, I didn't want to question much. Especially in my like earliest of ten years, you know, earliest of days. I was just a twenty-two-year-old kid. I'm not going to chime in. I mean, sure, I had questions, but it was evident that people weren't there.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  The people there weren't asking a lot of questions. So on day one, it was kind of tough. Day two, day three, day four, day five, you become yourself desensitized to, to your environment. Year six, year seven, you become an apologist for, or rather you, you, rather you, you even defend it. But then year eight, nine, 10, as you climb the ladder and you become closer to the decision makers and you yourself are supposed to lend your thoughts and experience to the decision making. I was always in the corner of the animals and so my class came with management. And for me, the bewilderment came when, you know, things that seemed so obvious

• 9:10Speaker 02

  were just being refuted in, in lieu of things that were more profitable or perhaps just not someone else's idea. It, the thing about Marineland is it really is a place that is unique unto itself in how it was managed. It's kind of micromanaged by its founder. Not a lot of things happened without him having to know. And the problem with that is, you know, if he's not available and something is, you need some imminent attention, whether it be mechanical failures or, or animal, and animals in distress, it could make for a very stressful environment.

• 9:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Like what would be an example where you're saying, you know, hey, look, the, the trade off was, in your opinion, obvious, but maybe they, they didn't agree?

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Well, for instance, I found that you can get a lot more out of an animal if you can train them over a long period of time, establish their trust. And that would require a lot more time with the animal, like hands on, a lot more staff and whatnot. Let's, let's use a medical training, medical procedures as an example. Rather than, than drop an entire pool of water down to inches and have, say, 13 to 20 beluga whales on their stomachs bouncing and thrashing and cutting themselves up and bleeding profusely and, and trainers getting injured because we're trying to do injections or trying to draw blood. Why not train those animals to voluntarily, voluntarily do so, which is totally possible? This would be an example of class for me.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  So I would say to the management, look, it would just take me some time and investment, but we can do this and it's gonna be, you know, it's gonna have less impact on both trainers and animals. And they saw it as, well, we can get it all done in an hour and cost us maybe some monies in medication and whatnot. But, you know, they just, things of that nature, things of that nature.

• 10:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And then at what point does Smushy come into, come into the picture?

• 11:05Speaker 02

  So suddenly, there's rumor that we're gonna get these wild walruses in that marine land. We'd never had walruses before. But you never knew what was coming. I mean, there was just days where you'd show up to work and you'd have some new wild-caught dolphins in your possession. I mean, this was, you just never knew. So, uh, the rumors proved, uh, proved fact. And, uh, one day, we, we received two baby walruses. Uh, it wasn't in fact smoochy yet, but these, these were our first two. And, uh, then came, uh, multiple shipments of multiple more. Uh, some would die fairly immediately and then be replaced.

• 11:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Where are they coming from? Are, are they coming, like, people are capturing them in the wild?

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're being captured in Russia. Everything you read in the news with work, with regards to, uh, marine mammals, uh, and whale captures, uh, it's, it's coming out of Russia. There's a, there's a burgeoning market in China, and Russia is trying to fuel that market. So in China, they're erecting new, uh, facilities left, right, and center, and they're buying these wild-caught, uh, uh, orcas and beluga whales, and wa- and walruses, in fact, from, uh, Russian brokers. Uh, you may have, of, of, uh, saw in the news last year, there was a massive whale rescue where, uh, you know, in excess of a hundred belugas and, uh, and orcas were, were forced to be released by the Russian government after

• 12:25Speaker 02

  activists, um, sort of, uh, uh, revealed that they were staying in this crazy prison. So, you know, for a while, it was, it was global news. So, um, you know, it was, it was, it was quite an impactful, uh, impactful time. But nonetheless, uh, the relationship that we had with the Russians is that if we got beluga whales or, uh, or, or walruses, if one were to die within, I don't know, the period of time, it would just, I, I just recognized it as pattern, uh, another would come back as replacements. It was kind of a strange, weird thing. In fact, I mean, I'll keep the story short, but I did, I first quit my job over a baby walrus that was imported. And I, I saw this baby walrus, and I thought, jeez, this has, this animal has no, we should not be in possession of this animal. It's,

• 13:10Speaker 02

  uh, it's half-dead. It's scared out of its mind. Every time we go near it to try to treat it medically, it, it looks like it's damn near gonna die from shock. I was just, I was just so disillusioned by it, so I quit. And then the next day, I felt just absolutely awful for having abandoned my teammates, uh, because, you know, you form bonds in these weird, uh, environments, uh, with the people you work with. And so I came back and, uh, And volunteered, in fact, to to uh do the necropsy on the baby walrus. And so the veterinarian said, I'm sorry, oh, what's a necropsy? That's it's the same as a as an autopsy for a human. You're just gonna you're gonna, you know, you're gonna find you're gonna go through the the organs and and draw blood and different. You know, get samples of different things.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  And so what the veterinarian wanted uh was just a just a sample of the baby walrus's brain. And so there I was with a chisel and hammer. And I felt like, look, I'll volunteer myself for this because sort of a sign of, I don't know, I guess a form of weird punishment. But I felt like, you know what, if I I should do this. And so I did, and it was, you know, weird and awful things. But nonetheless, I I we went off topic. As far as Smoochy is concerned, so so suddenly this this walrus comes in to our possession. And uh one day, you know, every time we get uh green animals, as we call them, so wild caught, they're just untrained. Uh because they don't voluntarily present their tails or whatnot to to draw blood from.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Uh you have to physically uh sort of sort of manhandle them and and tackle them to to get blood so that you can do an initial uh health assessment. And so in the process of doing that, we were sort of wrestling down uh one walrus. Well, Smoochy was was just had become frantic and and you know, walruses are just are are protected by nature. She's trying to protect the other walrus that we were trying to get the blood from. And so she was so disruptive that I I just decided to break away from the group and try to get her out of there. She was, you know, she was about two hundred pounds at the time, which may not seem like, yeah, it's, you know, it's a it's a hell of a thing to wrestle. So I was trying to wrestle her away, but something happened in that moment between the interaction of Smoochy and I that

• 15:19Speaker 02

  scientists have described it as an imprinting. So her brain circuitry opened. Suddenly, everything that I am is now tattooed on her brain, much like in the wild when a herd animal, so let's use walruses as an example, are amongst thousands. The mother and and calf are able to identify each other amongst all the noise and chaos because of an imprinting. So all of my senses, everything that I am, so my smell, the the sound of my voice, everything. It imprinted on her, so she recognized me suddenly as her mother. So you can imagine how conflicting this would be for someone like me who, you know, while I like the job, I also, as, you know,

• 16:04Speaker 02

  things, as things become more and more difficult, find myself in a situation where I've got a relationship with an animal that is, and this is gonna sound crazy, but, you know, I have a maternal-like relationship. It's a very powerful thing and it's a strange thing for me to have to describe, but she sees me as her mother and consequently, you know, I sort of, I raised her in ways and we had a level of communication that is unique to human and animals. We communicate differently. She, she's like, uh, she's family to me. It's it's a strange thing to say, I know, but you have to understand where I'm coming from.

• 16:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Explain what you mean by that, right? When people hear that, they're gonna be like, that's crazy. But like, what, like, actually explain when you say that the way that you communicate with an animal, uh, when you have that close bond, like, what exactly does that mean?

• 16:51Speaker 02

  She understands my sense of humor. I've had other animals that understand me in my, in sort of my mannerisms and, you know, if I elevate my voice, then they think, okay, it's like a heightened state of emotion. There's a response from an animal. In Smoochy's case, she knows when I'm kidding. She knows,

• 17:15Speaker 02

  something that happens when an animal's protective of you as well. Like, uh, the best, I guess a good example would be, how much do you love your dog? For those who, who have dogs that are really, really, really, those loyal and protective ones. They become family members. Well, in the case of Smoochy, it was more than that. She actually saw me as her mom. Like a natural phenomenon. Just by virtue of that, it just does something. So, yeah, we just have a greater level of communication and understanding. She, we, we understand each other better. I know it sounds crazy. It's non-verbal, of course. I'm not saying when she says, oof, oof, I'm like, see, that means mommy. I'm saying like, you know, you can understand an animal's level of, uh, you know, any, animals that that experience,

• 17:59Speaker 02

  that we perceive experiencing emotion, I mean, it's, it's a tough place to venture into, but I mean, I, I lean more towards, there's no question about it. When they're heightened, you understand it and, you know, you can appreciate whether they're experiencing fear or whether they're experiencing excitement, whatnot. With Smoochy, it just was so much more acute.

• 18:21Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And I guess as you were kind of going through this and building this bond, is it something where like you're in charge of just this one animal? Or are you still caring for multiple animals, not just walruses, but other types of species as well? And it was just this one you had the close bond with?

• 18:39Speaker 02

  Right. So what I did fail to mention in that is when I was mentioned earlier that walruses were coming in in various states of health. Smoochy came in and wasn't well. And so my first maybe month or so was dedicated to her because she had imprinted on me. My days were spent quite literally sleeping next to her while she was resting and getting her medication and just getting her strength up and whatnot. So initially I did spend a lot of time.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  But of course, I got to stretch myself a little bit thin too, because I've got literally another hundred animals to work with. And you know, you work in an environment where we're already stretched thin, especially in the winter where marine line is actually close to the public. So you know, staffing gets reduced and whatnot, but you know, it's doesn't always go over well with the coworkers. One guy gets to sleep all day. And the other one's got to scrub shit off bars. So I mean, it is what it is. We got through it.

• 19:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Would it be fair to say like a lot of people have probably watched Tiger King, the recent Netflix documentary? And in that, there's a number of scenes where they have the tiger cubs and there's a human taking care of it. And obviously that tiger cub learns to recognize that human, kind of understands that, hey, they took care of me. And I'll call it their kind of friends to some degree. And as they get bigger and bigger, next thing you know, you know, you got a tiger that's 400 pounds and it's still treating this human as if, you know, hey, this is my friend, right? Doesn't attack it. It kind of plays with it. It's responsive to it, etc.

• 20:14Anthony Pompliano?

  It sounds like a lot of what you're talking about here is that early bond that you have then translates to kind of the walrus version of that relationship, right?

• 20:22Speaker 02

  No, the difference between my relationship with Smoochy and that of an animal that a wild animal is just familiar with the language of training, which is you do good, I feed you. I mean, that's a symbiotic relationship, as long as you don't turn your back on these animals over time, that should, you know, you should keep all your limbs, but no, Smoochy, that imprint is a completely different thing. That's where, if she's not literally beside me, I mean, at this moment, right now, she's thinking about me. I know it sounds crazy, but she is, it's a, it's a level of obsession that I've never known, and now I actually was able, or rather than, I was able to relate to the other animals, because now I better understood what it meant for them to be torn apart from their family

• 21:07Speaker 02

  members and taken into captivity, because I recognize the inherent fear and the thing that made animals in captivity different than those of the wild. But with Smoochy, because by virtue of being close to me in proximity, she didn't have that same sort of, you know, because I was, I, I filled the void of that missing, uh, uh, mother and that bond, that this world sort of became normal to her. It's a weird thing to explain, but yeah, it's a, it's not the same, uh, relationship as, uh, as someone that feeds an animal or works with an animal a lot. It's, uh, well beyond that. It's almost inexplicable. It's, she, she genuinely thinks I'm her mom.

• 21:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that's crazy. Um, and, and so at what point, uh, do you kind of get fed up, uh, on the Marineland side and you're like, hey, I gotta make a change here?

• 22:01Speaker 02

  So I was conscious enough that the relationship with Smoochy was such that if I were to leave, it was going to compromise her health. So I did my best in at least the last year or so to try to wean off her dependence, uh, from me, because there was, uh, there was a dependence, but, you know, we did work that off, and I was always conscious of not leaving until that was something that I was comfortable with, it's kind of, you know, I was always balancing that.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  But then in 2012,

• 22:38Speaker 02

  at the end of our operating season, so let's call it August, there was a, there was a breakdown of the water disinfection unit. A ozone generator is what the, the machine's called. It generates ozone. And ozone, when worked in conjunction with chlorine, mitigates chlorine's use. You don't have to use so much. And so the idea is in conjunction, you keep your water clean. You don't have to use so much chlorine. The animals don't have the adverse effects because chlorine is, as I'm sure you can relate, you know, anytime you've ever jumped into a pool that was shocked and you didn't know, you know, it can be awful. So animals living in that 24/7, it's, it's an awful thing. So, you know, we started to call the founding, you know, the, the owner, John Holder, and would say, listen, the ozone generator's broken. Water's gone green.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Uh, we gotta get something done here.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  I, I can't rationalize his decision making, but I'll assume that, you know, because the season was closing, it was, was, you know, it wrapped up in September, that, or rather in October, that, uh, this was something that could be put off because the park would be closed for a number of months and it could just be addressed then. The problem with that was the water had gotten so bad. I mean, it was, it was evident. Uh, I mean, the water had gone completely green and, I mean, we can go into the details that, you know, there, there is some evidence on the internet. I encourage everyone as usual to do some, some research, but, um,

• 24:09Speaker 02

  he just wasn't gonna fix it. It just, we couldn't get him, you know, I would see him at local Tim Hortons coffee shops and I've got animals whose eyes are bleeding. And, uh, his only answer, the answer rather, was to increase chlorine use over the months that we were closed. And, uh, it was awful. It was awful. The, the effects were awful.

• 24:33Anthony Pompliano?

  And is that a financial, is that a financial decision? Or is it being driven by something else?

• 24:42Speaker 02

  I'll say it's financial in addition to the fact that some people can't be told what to do. And when too many people are emphatically trying to tell someone what to do, it just, some people just elect to not do that. I can't explain why. All I know is the complacency was unjustifiable.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  And so, two weeks prior to the following season's opening day, I said, I ain't, I'm not, I'm not doing this. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not part of Marine Land anymore. I don't go on that stage. I don't bring animals in this condition. Oh, I don't do this no more. I'm fucking done. And so I insisted on exit meeting and, you know, we exchanged unpleasant trees and pleasantries. But I wouldn't have quit without the, the firm agreement that I was to remain in Smoochy's life if she needed me, which historically she had, Marine Land agreed. So much so that even one week later, because after I'd quit Marine Land's owner, after the exit meeting, he very frantically dumped the water, actually delayed the opening of the park.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  But he got the message when I left. He called me back in to treat a dolphin because the dolphin stopped eating. As soon as you change a wild animal or captive animals' environment, they get a little bit spooked, they stop eating. So he had, like the owner specifically, had me come in to give a dolphin Valium and give Valium in the zoological settings, or at least with marine mammals will stimulate appetite. And so we, I administered the Valium and, you know, she, she, she was bouncing back. I saw Smoochy, I was certain not to let Smoochy actually see me because I, you know, I'd been gone in excess of a week now and it's a pretty long time. So I didn't want to disrupt whatever progress they were having with her, but I did see her. Uh, and I left.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  But uh, it was about a month later that uh, you know, I wasn't in the best place. Frankly, I mean, I should emphasize that when I quit, it was also in the interest of my, of my mental health. I wasn't in the best of shape either. But uh, a month later, I'd just decided, you know what? It's been a month now, I'm gonna go see Smokey. And when I tried to get back into the park, for some reason, the security guard wouldn't let me in. It was the strangest thing because, shit man, I was like family over there. So uh, stroke of luck, the owner's son, who was a good friend of mine, happened to see the interaction with me and the security guard and uh, you know, he escorted me in. Well, while I was coming into the park, one of the veterinarians drove around the back and she, she, you know, she met up with me.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  So she already got, she'd been tipped off that I was there. I said, what the hell's going on? And she said, "You're not gonna like what you, what you're gonna see." I said, "Let's go." So she took me to the back, in what's called the warehouse or the barn, and uh, took me immediately to go see Smokey, and there she was, emaciated, uh, you know, bone dry. Uh, there was no fresh water, there was no ice on her deck, I mean, it looked awful. So, you know, as soon as she recognized me, she perks up. I said to the vet, imagine this, I say, "Go get meds." So she's running. Now we're filling fish with, you know, various meds. We start feeding her the meds, get her drink some water, whatnot. And as I'm leaving, and I said to the vet, "The fuck happened?

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Why didn't you call me?" Evidently, the last time I was brought in to feed the dolphin, it irked one of the new managers. He didn't like that the uh, that the owner had gone over his head and called me specifically. So it's, it's quite political, but nonetheless, it was determined that, you know, Phil doesn't come here anymore. Here's the new chain of command of who calls Phil. And it was just sort of decided that Phil wasn't gonna be called anymore.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  And so I saw that and what I didn't mention is at the time, some newspapers had been calling me because, you know, back in 2008, when Smoochy showed up, there was quite a bit of media attention around she and I's relationship. There was a fluff story that came out on Valentine's Day and it was picked up by a bunch of media. In fact, I was on like Jimmy Kimmel Show, Inside Edition. It went crazy at the time when viral was yet to, you know, was yet a thing. I was becoming MySpace viral, let's say. So, you know, by virtue of having had that attention and now quitting, much of the media was like, you know, where's the walrus guy going? What the fuck's happened? I was actually quoted in the 2008 article saying, if I ever quit, I'm gonna take this walrus with me, which, you know, Marineland

• 29:11Speaker 02

  has yet to present it as evidence in court, but nonetheless, if I can help their case any, their, their non-existing case any. But, yeah, they started to call me and ask me why I quit and everything. And, you know, because my relationship with Marineland was still firm and I intended to keep it as such, I didn't talk. But after seeing Smoochy in the condition that she was, you know, I picked up the phone. I said, you put my fucking name, my face on every fucking newspaper. And I could hear the print machines going back. Okay, Phil, let's fucking go buckle up. Okay, let's do this. And so, you know, massive expose happened to drop on the owner's birthday. Um, you know, things just got really ugly. So they sued me.

• 29:56Anthony Pompliano?

  And so in that expose, like, what were the main allegations or, uh, or kind of claims, if you will?

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Well, of note, I wasn't the only whistleblower. There were seven of us initially that grew to 15 and then it grew in excess of, many of which elected to speak anonymously because for fear of legal reprisal because Marineland is litigious just by, they have a long litigious history. So, you know, it described everything from lack of staff issues to, uh, you know, the water breakdown. Uh, there was incidences where the owner was shooting neighbors' dogs. I mean, it, it really quite just became an expose around just a lot of, uh, animal abuse sort of revelations and whatnot. Just, I mean, Marineland's always had a history, but, you

• 30:47Speaker 02

  know, 2013, 2014 with things like Twitter and whatnot, it just, the landscape changed for the little guy. And so whereas they were accustomed to just absolutely chopping everyone down, you know, here I am just luckily sustaining, but you know, they just, they, they, they, they employed their strong arm, their corporate strong arm and, and they sued me with a slap suit. Uh, and a slap suit for those who don't, who, who aren't familiar, uh, the slap acronym stands for strategic lawsuit against public participation.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Basically they sue me to shut me up so that the public doesn't get interested in what the hell it is I have to say. And the change, and the imminent change that would come with it.

• 31:30Anthony Pompliano?

  And so I'm assuming that you thought that this might happen, but do you remember when you first heard that the lawsuit had actually been filed, like what your reaction was?

• 31:40Speaker 02

  This was great. Uh, I thought it could happen, but I, I've had enough people in my corner, uh, naively, naively telling me that, well, if you're telling the truth, you can't be sued. Well, that's not necessarily true. Uh, you, you, you were unlikely to get a, uh, to get any type of verdict against you, but you could certainly be sued. Uh, so I had the sense that, you know, maybe they would, but you know, I, I don't know, I wasn't yet convinced, but uh, suddenly I started getting, um, calls from a friend of mine saying, let's look, man, they're going to serve me, they're threatening, I just got, you know, I got served with this cease and desist, I got all this stuff, they're going to sue me tomorrow. And he's calling me and telling me all this stuff. I'm like, what? Like, that's crazy, man.

• 32:26Speaker 02

  The next day they sued me, fuckers. And I found out by watching the news, my friend literally texted me, it's not me, it's you in capital letters. I look, what the hell? And then I see that I'd missed a couple of calls from a, from a journalist. The funny thing is, you know, you learn a thing or two about journalism and all of this as well. In journalism, at least back then, super corporate friendly journalism.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  You know, you take a lawsuit and you take a, you, you create all the greatest headlines from it that you can, because a lawsuit is literally a legal means to, to fame the shit out of somebody, because all you have to do is, you know, I sue you for anything, and the newspaper could grab it, run with the headlines and just say, you know, and these allegations have yet to be proven in court. So corporate-friendly media will take, uh, will take something that's been handed to them before I'm even served, imagine that, take, uh, sort of take the details of it, probably tip on what, on, on, on what aspects to point to, and they call me one time, let it ring twice, hang up. Phil was unavailable at time for comment. All they have to do is send you an email, and if you don't respond to that email within two minutes, and then they do that one call with two rings. It was, it was absolutely ridiculous.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  I found out I was being sued in the media. I was learning about it on the news.

• 33:37Anthony Pompliano?

  It's crazy. And so what point are you like, alright, I should go steal a walrus?

• 33:43Speaker 02

  So the allegations of my plotting to steal a walrus, uh, were in the lawsuit. I will say that they were there basically to make me look like a crazy idiot, and that they could run with stupid headlines, because back in maybe the nineties, that would work, maybe in the eighties, that would, let's say in the eighties, that would definitely work. Uh, but in 2012, it just wasn't gonna take, so the, the idea that I would ever have plotted to steal a walrus is absurd, but I should mention that by virtue of being sued for millions of dollars, and now having sustained many years of litigation, uh, through public support and, and, uh, whatnot, because, you know, there's a number of campaigns here, people that, you know, you might not necessarily be an animal lover, but you might be like, you know, fuck the man, you might be like, you know, what, give this, you know, keep

• 34:28Speaker 02

  this guy fighting, because, I don't know, it's, it's nice to have a lot of support, and certainly a lot of reasons to keep this thing going as best and as long as we can, but that lawsuit, they, they fucked up, and the problem is with lawsuits is, there's settlements, and, uh...

• 34:49Speaker 02

  You know, there's a good and evil aspect to this, but there's also an asshole versus asshole aspect. And, you know, there was, there was a big asshole in all this. And then there's, there's me, who is, who might wind up being the bigger asshole, because I'm a hard negotiator. There's the only, there's only one thing I want. So you can call it plotting to steal a walrus or not, but I didn't sue myself. But if they want, if they want to get away from this lawsuit, there's only one way. Give me the fuck a walrus. I know it sounds crazy. Give me the fuck a walrus.

• 35:20Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, hold on, hold on. So the only way that you want to settle this is if they give you Smoochy. What the hell are you gonna do with a walrus?

• 35:29Speaker 02

  I have a place that's going to build a facility, will be ready in a matter of months, that is local, that will have two other walruses, young females, so there's no, no concern for, for aggression or, or mating and whatnot. And they have, they've declared themselves interested. And so, Marineland has, I mean, the unfortunate part about lawsuits, litigation and settlement talks is, you know, there's an element of good faith in negotiations. But let's just say, I can't make it easier for Marineland. So it just becomes a question. You know, Smoochy is the last surviving walrus I should mention. In the last two years, well, now, now two and a little, four have died. I mean, whatever is happening at Marineland

• 36:13Speaker 02

  right now, and, and it has forever, but it's just been exacerbated. The animals are dying off very quickly. It's very concerning. Marineland's conscious choice to keep Smoochy at the park is a conscious choice to keep her in a state of torture, as far as I'm concerned. And so, I'm trying to make it as easy as possible for Marineland. And, you know, by virtue of, it's gonna be, it's gonna, it's been costing them. And this is my emphasis to them is, whereas they say something to the effect of, well, walruses are very valuable, I say, well, not a walrus is costing you tens of millions of dollars. And I can with confidence say that over the eight years I've been removed, tens of millions.

• 36:55Anthony Pompliano?

  And so like, part of what I don't understand, right, is like, the math and business behind all of this. So what I mean by that is like, when that walrus shows up as a baby walrus to Marineland, like, how much are they paying for it? And then what is the ongoing cost just to feed it, shelter it, and kind of take care of it?

• 37:19Speaker 02

  So I don't know the cost of a wild walrus. I can't even necessarily, I can't even offer what wild dolphins or, or belugas cost. I just, I don't want to be wrong about it and I don't, I just don't know. But the care is-

• 37:35Anthony Pompliano?

  On a ballpark basis, are we talking a couple thousand dollars or like half a million dollars per animal? If you had to guess?

• 37:43Speaker 02

  If I had to guess, I think if you're dealing with one beluga, you're in the near six-figure range. But if you're dealing with multiple, then you're, it may reduce the price a little bit. So, you know, with Marineland, we would get like six to 12 per shipment. Uh, I think four or five times we've got them, maybe more, a couple of times before I'd gotten there. Uh, and dolphins, we'd received, uh, three times, if I'm not mistaken. Walruses, four times, often accompanied with other shipments. Uh, so I don't know because we're talking about like combo platters. So I don't know.

• 38:17Anthony Pompliano?

  And I'm assuming that drives a lot of the big business in Russia and China as well, right? Is they're grabbing these, uh, animals out of the oceans in the wild and then turning around and selling them for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in a market. Obviously there's a huge profit margin there. Um, and so, uh, I'm assuming that they're not putting them in the equivalent of Marineland or SeaWorld in China. Maybe they are, uh, but, but I've got to imagine that that's more food-based type, um, you know, financial activity rather than here in the U.S. A lot of that's going into, um, trying to build a business around, hey, I buy this animal, I take care of it. And then I actually bring people into the park, uh, and have them, uh, kind of watch shows and things like that, right?

• 39:03Speaker 02

  The idea, at least with Marineland, they're tried, tested business model. And remember the owner, uh, was very, was an older man. I mean, we're talking about an old school dude who's, this was his baby. So you can imagine why he wouldn't want to necessarily adopt any type of positive change or, or evolve much. He almost, he almost took the stance and even ramped up his purchasing of wild animals, but, uh-

• 39:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just, it used to be a draw at the door. If you had an orca in a pool, you were going to make a lot of money. So it was worth paying at least a lot of money in medication. You'll notice, you know, facilities in North America haven't changed, by the way. If you take a look at SeaWorld, you take a look at Marineland. You never notice that the pool, you don't hear of new large expanses. You just never do. New ride, yes, new this, but you know, it's an old school idea with no place in 2020. If we, if today we were going to start and build, much like China is, these facilities. I don't know that, like, imagine if we were to start from scratch. We're gonna say, hey, I've got this marvel idea. I'm gonna take that majestic animal, put it in a cage. Everyone will be like, no, that's not happening. It's just absolutely absurd. A case couldn't be made for it.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  And yet today, and yet these facilities, they still exist. They're all like 30 and 40 years old, but the pools haven't changed or anything. So, you know, they're still stuck in the idea that you fill the pools, you fill the stands. But, you know, legislation is catching up to them as well. Canada, very proudly. What's that say?

• 40:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think we'll see them shut down? Like Marineland, SeaWorld? Do you think eventually they get shut down and outlawed? Or do you think that they'll just kind of morph what they look like?

• 40:35Speaker 02

  So what you'll see is, they, they do have a shelf life, just by virtue of animals having a shelf life. Whatever, whatever laws come around, so let's use, in Canada, for example, breeding, import and export of whales, dolphins and porpoises have been outlawed. It's banned. It's a new law that was passed only a few months ago. I'd like to thank Marineland for their help in, in helping me pass that law, by the way.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  And so, by example, Marineland now has to care for the fucking animals because they can't get anymore. And so the same thing you can imagine is gonna happen. I believe New York State has some laws. California has done the same. I imagine maybe at the, at the federal level. In the States, I mean, it's all gonna catch up, but you know, people vote with their dollars. That's the bottom line and no one wants to really go to these places. If you notice, these facilities are really suffering. I mean, everyone's suffering right now, but backing up even just a mere, mere months ago. C E O's are, it's a rotating door at SeaWorld CEO because no one can come up with an idea to keep these things going and any new ideas are immediately rejected because there's just an old guard that is unbreakable with this particular business. And like, you know, you mentioned Tiger King earlier because who doesn't?

• 41:47Speaker 02

  But you know, these, these owners are really eccentric people. They just really are. It's across the board. I'm gonna say it, I'm gonna generalize the whole load of them. Zoo owners and aquarium owners are just some of the wackiest people I've ever come across. I have to say, so, uh, you know, nothing surprises me with the way with all the, you know, hearing all the stories of litigation and Tiger King and everything else, it's like, yeah, exactly, of course.

• 42:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's, uh, it's pretty crazy, man. When you start to see some of this stuff. Uh, one of the last things I want to talk about is, um, you've done a, a number of really interesting, uh, kind of fundraisers and, and things to, uh, not only one fuel the, uh, litigation that, that you're, um, engaged in, but also on top of that, uh, to really bring awareness to, um, a lot of these issues and, and obviously Smoochy is, is one piece of that, but, but a broader issue as well. Uh, maybe talk a little bit about just how you've thought through, um, kind of, you know, the critical thinking and outside the box thinking that's required to, um, you know, really kind of rise above the noise in a lot of these situations.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  So I will just go back to the day I decided to speak out. I was laying on my bedrock and back and forth in a fetal position and I said to myself, hey, how am I supposed to live the remainder of my life if I don't do something here? Uh, what does the rest of my life look like and how do I live with myself? I, I just couldn't, I couldn't conceive not, not doing something. And so by virtue of like, I, I, the way I say it is I, I gave myself up to the universe. What I said was,

• 43:17Speaker 02

  You know, no one stands a chance in this fight, me included. So if I've got nothing to lose, and I should mention that at the time I had just won fifty thousand dollars. It sounds crazy. I, uh, everything I say sounds crazy. I, I went on this, this reality TV show called White Boat. You may be familiar. You remember the big red balls and all that stuff? Well, there was a, there was a short-lived version, Canadian version, and I was on it, the premiere episode, because I was the walrus mom, and I won. So when I got that fifty K, you know, I got it because of the walrus. In my mind, I kept saying to myself, well, I wish I'd said to myself, buy Bitcoin, but I said to myself, you know, it's not really my money. Like,

• 44:00Speaker 02

  it's, uh, it's an easy thing to say, hey, go, go buy yourself something fancy or whatnot. But, you know, I was just in such a state of sort of distress and everything was just sort of precarious situation at Marine Land. I thought, you know, I better hold on to this for a rainy day. So I, at least at the onset of the lawsuits and everything else, and, and the decision-making that went forward, I thought, I've got fifty K. This is my money to get out of the gates. We'll see how long this lasts, and if I can keep going, then I'll keep going. And so I, I, I started with the fifty and then, you know, launched some various, uh, uh, GoFundMe, uh, campaigns and whatnot to sustain throughout. And, you know, I still have one. Uh, my, oh, by the way, just to

• 44:45Speaker 02

  back up, my decision moving forward and my state of mind of thinking outside the box was, was this, in every which possible decision presented, be the most costly and pain in the ass for Marine Land that I can be, in every which way. And the unfortunate part of that is I have to give myself away often. I always have to play the role of this bravado guy while my, while I'm filling my pants. But, you know, I just, I just decided, do the exact thing that scares the shit out of you the most. And it's exactly what I've done. And I have, I have been, I've gone broke three times. I've been on the edge of absolute disaster. I've gone, still maybe crazy, but still sustaining and somehow,

• 45:29Speaker 02

  and it is truly in the belief that

• 45:33Speaker 02

  If I just keep, if I just keep fighting.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  I mean, I've got nothing to lose anymore anyway. So I do have a website, a fundraising website. It's at savesmooshi.com. I'll spell it out. S A V E S M O O S H I dot com. There's a trailer on there to a documentary that's coming out. I've been followed for the last, in excess of two years. Both, you know, fighting for this legislation in Canada and my fight for Smooshi and whatnot. So. You know, and that's, that's coming out on May 28th in Canada. On the CBC, which is our national broadcaster. And that's only because it was selected for the Hot Dogs, Hot Dogs International Documentary Film Festival.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  But, you know, it's been delayed and whatnot. So, so, you know, CBC partnered with, with Hot Dogs. So they're actually going to premiere it in Canada, but it is geolocked to Canada. But thereafter, I believe the plan is a theatrical run maybe in the US and then US distribution via, you know, whatever, whatever it is. So, you know, look out for that.

• 46:38Anthony Pompliano?

  What, what do we, what do we put the odds at right now? That, uh, let's say by the end of 2021, you have Smooshi. What was the probability of that?

• 46:52Speaker 02

  There was a, I was at 1% when I quit. If that, I was on a, I was just on a. And right now in my gut.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  I think.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  I mean, it's a question of her staying alive, but if she stays alive. If she stays alive, she will see me. I'm giving that a 99 percenter. Will I get her? I'm going to give it 51% in the next.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  In the next six months, I'll know.

• 47:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, we are. You got a shot.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  We are, oh shit, yeah, we got a shot. I, we're in a part of litigation right now that they don't want to be. So they have some really hard decisions to make. I'm trying to make it as easy as possible. But if they want to continue to embarrass themselves and cost themselves down the road, then I'm, I'm, I'm here to, I'm here for that. Like, I love it. So.

• 47:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think that anyone's told Smooshi yet?

• 47:52Speaker 02

  If I told you about my ayahuasca journey, I told her.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  I visited her. I breathed life into those nostrils. I squeezed that heart. But I told her. She knows.

• 48:08Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  She's still here because of it.

• 48:10Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. Alright, so for those that want to, uh, to figure out more about Smooshie, learn more about kind of the, uh, the bigger picture here of just, it really just comes down to animal cruelty and, and a lot of things that are, uh, you know, becoming more apparent and, and obvious that they're inhumane in the treatment of some of these animals. Uh, you can go to savesmooshi.com and it's a save and then S-M-O-O-S-H-I, correct?

• 48:35Speaker 02

  Correct. Dot com. And also friends don't let friends go to Marineland and SeaWorld. So, spread the word.

• 48:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Friends don't let friends go to SeaWorld or Marineland. I love it.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. Oh, yeah. And I think the next court appearance, you know, like the, the Marineland's lawyer will be listening to this and he will take issue. So, whether I wear it or not, we'll see. You know, much of what I do is,

• 49:00Speaker 02

  again, just being a pain in the ass, but I got this new shirt I'm making called Lawyer Destroyer. I'm gonna wear it under my butt shirt at some point. Or I'm not. Or I'm not. We'll see. I don't know.

• 49:10Anthony Pompliano?

  If you go into a courtroom and you wear a shirt that says Lawyer Destroyer, there better be a video.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  It's, my attire has been complained about in court before. Anyways,

• 49:23Speaker 02

  much of what I do gets complained about in court, but it's not getting them very far.

• 49:28Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. I love it. Alright, Phil, listen, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Uh, you, you obviously have a, uh, a very different, but, um, but pretty crazy and, uh, and impressive story. So, um, I think that more people hopefully will, uh, will kind of look into this. And, uh, here in the United States, it's very obvious that, uh, there, there's a lot of kind of animal cruelty at, um, at, at these, uh, you know, organizations and some of this being addressed, some of it's not. But, uh, there's very few people who are willing to kind of dedicate their, uh, their time and energy to this. So, uh, for all the people who, uh, who love animals, thank you.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  And I'm just appreciative for all the support, man. I got the best seat in the house. So, I thank everyone. And you especially, man. Every opportunity to spread word like this is, you know, it's all I've got. You know, it really is. This is, it's me against, I'm against a machine. So I appreciate that, that there is a machine for me to fall back on.

• 50:20Anthony Pompliano?

  The lawyer destroyer strikes again.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 50:24Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, thanks, Phil.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  My pleasure, man. Anytime.