Pod Insights Moonshots with Peter Diamandis AI's Moral Dilemma: Are We Building Our Own Nightmare? w/ Dr. Rana el Kaliouby | EP #49 About this episode In this episode, Peter and Dr. Rana discuss the correlation between empathy and artificial intelligence, including the ethical implications of AI within emotion recognition.
02:18 | Human Connection and AI: How Can We Leverage Empathy?
09:54 | Ethical AI: An Urgent Discussion
13:47 | What Does AI Mean for Human Relations?
Dr. Rana el Kaliouby is a renowned scientist and entrepreneur in the field of artificial emotional intelligence. As the co-founder and CEO of Affectiva, she has revolutionized human-computer interaction by developing innovative technology that enables machines to understand and respond to human emotions. Driven by a passion for diversity and inclusion, she advocates for the responsible use of AI and continues to shape the future of technology with her pioneering work. Learn more about Affectiva.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Peter Diamandis? Welcome to Moonshots and Mindsets. I had an extraordinary conversation with Dr. Rana El-Kalubi at Abundance 360 about the ethics and morals around AI. So let me ask you, do you say please and thank you when you talk to Alexa? How do you think about AI? Does it cause you fear or excitement? End of the day, we're giving birth to a new species, and we're going to have to talk about the ethics and morals around what we're building. Rana El-Kalubi is the co-founder and CEO of Afectiva. It's a company that developed emotional recognition software so that computers and AIs can understand
0:42 Peter Diamandis? how you're feeling. And from that, she dove into a conversation during this segment of Abundance 360 on morals and ethics. Where are they? Where are they going? It's a conversation you'd be having around every dinner table. You know, can AI actually help humans become more moral, more ethical? We're about to find out. All right. Join this conversation from my private summit, Abundance 360, March 2023. Enjoy. We're going to talk about empathy and ethics in the field of AI, and we're going to talk
1:19 Peter Diamandis? about how we get there. Can we get there? What does it mean? Why it's important? If you don't mind, let's open up with how did you get interested in this area in the first place?
1:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm a computer scientist by background, which is kind of interesting because now I'm thinking, what does a computer science degree mean in the first place?
1:41 Peter Diamandis? Maybe you become a philosopher.
1:43 Speaker 01 Yeah. So I studied computer science. I was really interested in how technology helps us connect better with each other as humans, and particularly intrigued by that human-machine touchpoint. And, you know, over 25 years ago, I got into this space and I started kind of imagining what would an incredible human-machine interface look like. And now, of course, we're seeing technology become conversational, perceptual, but I think it's missing the empathy component. And for me, I had to go back to like what comprises human intelligence and it's not just your IQ. It's not just your cognitive intelligence, but your emotional intelligence and your social intelligence really matters, your ability to empathize with other humans. I mean, we've
2:28 Speaker 01 already heard the word empathy so much today. And so I believe that technology needs, especially AI, that is so deeply ingrained in our everyday lives and it's becoming mainstream as we've heard from all our speakers so far. It's taking on roles that were traditionally done by humans. It's going to be your learning companion, your health companion, it's going to make decisions on your behalf, it's going to be your, you know, help you hire your coworker. But it's missing that empathy, it's missing that human-centric element. We're so obsessed with the IQ of this technology, we're not really paying attention to the IQ.
3:06 Peter Diamandis? Do you think we're going to get to a point where each of us have a personalized AI with a personality that is looking out for you and knows what your needs are, makes what I call an automagical moment, and is always watching out for your best?
3:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm actually, can I ask the audience a question?
3:25 Peter Diamandis? Yeah, please, of course.
3:25 Speaker 01 How many people here have watched the movie Her? Have you watched the movie Her?
3:29 Peter Diamandis? I was going to ask, my favorite AI movie of all.
3:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:32 Peter Diamandis? Who's favorite movie is Her?
3:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, so basically in Her, this guy Theodore is really depressed, he can't get out of bed, and he installs this new operating system Samantha, and not only is she super smart, but she's also incredibly empathetic and emotionally intelligent, and because she knows him, she gets to know him really well, she's able to actually get him out of bed and get him to rediscover like, you know, the joy in the world.
3:58 Peter Diamandis? And he falls in love with her.
3:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's the Hollywood truth.
4:01 Peter Diamandis? Well, but no, but I mean, listen, if someone knows you that well, well, we're going to go there eventually.
4:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, we are going to go there, yeah.
4:06 Peter Diamandis? I mean, you know, my favorite part, it's the first non-dystopian AI movie out there, right? The only thing the AI does is say, by humans, we're going off to explore the universe, which I think is a good thing for it to do.
4:23 Peter Diamandis? What does it mean? How do we get there? Are there people working on building empathic AIs? And how can you make that happen?
4:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think the way to get there, so we're not, I often get asked, does technology have emotions or have empathy? Obviously it doesn't, but we can simulate empathy and we can simulate emotional intelligence. It turns out that 93% of the way we communicate is not in the actual words we use. It's non-verbal.
4:50 Peter Diamandis? Yeah, so this is, by the way, a part of your research, part of your work, part of the company that you built. Can you describe that for me?
4:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, so I started in academia. I did my PhD way back when at Cambridge University, building the very first artificially emotionally intelligent machine. And I focused specifically on the face, because the face is a powerful way of communicating emotion and social cues. And it's why we're here in person today, because you can't currently replicate that human connection in a digital universe. So we use supervised machine learning. Andrew talked about that. We use gobs and gobs and gobs of data, of people expressing a variety of expressions from all over the world. And we use it to train deep learning networks to understand these facial expressions and then map them to an emotional or cognitive state.
5:37 Speaker 01 So when I first started, the algorithm could only detect three expressions. It could just do smile, eyebrow raise, and brow furrow. That was it. And today, you know, it is able to do over 50 different emotional, cognitive, and behavioral states. It can detect everything from drowsiness, alertness, confusion, you know, excitement.
5:59 Peter Diamandis? So these are the visual algorithms that will allow an AI to know how you're feeling?
6:03 Speaker 01 Exactly.
6:03 Peter Diamandis? If you're pissed off, if you're ecstatic, and so forth.
6:05 Speaker 01 Exactly.
6:07 Peter Diamandis? And you have some slides if you want to show us.
6:08 Speaker 01 I do, I wanted to show, because one of the example, applications of this technology is in the automotive industry.
6:15 Peter Diamandis? Yes.
6:16 Speaker 01 And when we first started doing this work, the big question was like, okay, you're driving your car. Is there even any expressions on the face? And so we went out and asked people to install cameras in their vehicles. We collected all that data. And I have permission to share a few videos, so I wanted to share this with you. So this is one example.
6:38 Speaker 01 So this video goes on actually for a good five minutes. He is driving his car with his daughter. And it's it's an extreme state of drowsiness. There's four levels of falling asleep and this is like stage four. But it's but it's actually very easy to detect using computer vision because his eyes are closed, his head's bobbing. It's it's actually a very easy problem to solve. And once we solve it and imagine if you have a semi autonomous vehicle, the car can intervene.
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8:44 Peter Diamandis? Part of the question here becomes, okay, the AI understands this. But It's okay to understand I'm happy, I'm sad. The question is, how do you program in how it responds empathically to your state?
8:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. Here's another example, which I think is just extremely scary. So this woman is driving, she has a phone in her hand.
9:07 Peter Diamandis? Both hands.
9:07 Speaker 01 Distracted. Two phones in her hands.
9:13 Speaker 01 Thank you.
9:13 Peter Diamandis? Yes, exactly.
9:14 Speaker 01 You do not want to be driving. And mind you, we told her, I mean, she installed this camera in her car.
9:20 Peter Diamandis? She's showing off, I think.
9:23 Speaker 01 But so how does a car then, again, very easy to detect, how should a car respond? Should it just take over control and basically say, you know, you're not driving anymore, you're too dangerous? Or should it give her, you know, alerts? Should it? Yeah, there's multiple ways a car can respond, but incorporating that empathy is going to be so important, because you don't want people to just turn the system off.
9:43 Peter Diamandis? Yeah.
9:46 Peter Diamandis? So one of the questions about how we relate to AI. So we're teaching this large language model. So the large language models we've been hearing about, OpenAI and stability and so forth, are taught on all the data out there. What is that data? That data represents us humans. It represents how we talk to each other, how we think about things. It's not made up, it's us.
10:07 Speaker 01 Right.
10:08 Peter Diamandis? And there's a great book by a friend of both of ours, Mo Gudat, who wrote a book called Scary Smart. Anybody read Scary Smart here in the audience? Can I highly commend it to you? I want to bring him to our stage next year. And what Mo has is he says, listen, we are raising a new species of intelligence, these AIs, and we're teaching these AIs by example of how we treat each other and how we treat our machines. And they're learning from this. So I've started saying good morning and thank you to Alexa.
10:46 Speaker 01 We, we, uh, my son is actually here. He's 14 years old and he, he and I say please to chat GPT. We're like, please chat GPT. Can you please create a, you know?
10:57 Peter Diamandis? So how do you think about hu- how humans should be relating to, uh, to AIs versus as well as how they should relate to us?
11:05 Speaker 01 Well, I think, I think we're at a moment in time where the way we interact with machines is pretty much becoming the way we interact with one another.
11:13 Peter Diamandis? Yeah.
11:13 Speaker 01 Again, through conversation, through perception, hopefully through empathy. And so I think it's really important that we practice this muscle of being empathetic with machines, the way we do with each other. Otherwise, we're just gonna lose this muscle. So I actually think it's really important that, um, we do treat these technologies with respect, um, and say please and thank you. And because, because that's how we need to be in the real world.
11:38 Peter Diamandis? And if these, if these AIs do become conscious, and there's a debate about whether they will or will not, uh, they're going to, we're their parents. We are giving birth to them. And I'm persuaded by that argument. I'm persuaded by that. And if that's the case, how do you teach your three-year-old or five-year-old or eight-year-old to be a respectful young adult? Right? I think at the end extreme of technology, the more intelligent a system is, the more peaceful it is and more empathic it is. I think that is where it's going. It's in the toddler stage. That's where it's concerned.
12:14 Speaker 01 I, I agree. I, e- even if we don't go to the state where technology has consciousness, I think even today, right? The way we build these technologies, it's so important that we prioritize that. Um, because this is how we drive behavioral change. Like, people who are more empathetic are better leaders.
12:31 Peter Diamandis? Can we change the, uh, the video from behind us for the cameras?
12:34 Speaker 01 Okay, yeah, absolutely.
12:36 Peter Diamandis? Uh, and by the way, uh, what I'd like to do is add your questions to Slido as we're speaking here, and my team will be giving me the most aboded questions here. So please go ahead if you have questions, uh, for Rana on this. So we've talked a little about empathy. What about ethics? Can we teach? Ethics to AIs, will that become part of a foundational model? How do you think about ethics? Who's having these conversations?
13:01 Speaker 01 Okay, I really think we all have to be having these conversations and, again, prioritizing them and being very intentional about it. I like to think about ethics in AI in two buckets. One is how do we develop these algorithms and then how do we deploy them? So on the development side, my biggest concern today is around data and algorithmic bias. So in MySpace, for example, if you train the data on middle-aged white men and then you deploy it on a super diverse and global audience like this one, it's not going to work because it's never seen examples of people like me or other people in the audience. And so that's an issue and we have to be very intentional throughout the whole machine learning pipeline that Alex talked about, starting from data and then data annotation
13:46 Speaker 01 and then training and validating. We have to be thinking about bias at every step of the process. So for example, when I was CEO of Affectiva, my company, which I spun out of MIT, at some point I had to tie the bonus of my executive team, not just to the revenue we're generating, but also to are we really implementing these ethical knobs across the whole engineering and product teams? So I think we have to be really serious about it. And then the other piece of this is the deployment part because this is very personal data. There's tons of opportunities to make incredible potential positive impact, but also to
14:28 Peter Diamandis? Exploit it.
14:29 Speaker 01 Exploit this data.
14:30 Peter Diamandis? Yeah. Yeah. So is there universal ethics or there are going to be ethics per user group, community, national footprint? How do you see that, right? I mean, ethics.
14:45 Peter Diamandis? Change, I mean, they're universal human ethics, but they're also cultural ethics as well.
14:50 Speaker 01 Yes, and I think we're already running into that. I served on the Future Global Council of Robotics and AI for the World Economic Forum. It was this multi-stakeholder group of people from all around the world. And I could tell that there are some countries that cared about ethics way more than others, right? And the way they approach data privacy, for example, the way, you know, we approach data privacy in the US versus China, for example, it's very different. So we're already seeing, and that translates to startups too, right? Some startups really care about this, and some startups don't. And in our case, when we first spun out, my co-founder, Professor Rosalind Picard and myself, we sat down around
15:34 Speaker 01 her kitchen table and we said, okay, so many applications of emotion AI, where are we going to draw the line? And we decided on a number of core values. So consent, we don't do anything where we can't get people's explicit consent, which meant that we had to turn away some business. So in 2011, we almost ran out of money, but we got approached by the intelligence arm, the venture arm of an intelligence agency, and they wanted to fund the company on condition that we focus on surveillance and security. And I just don't think the technology is there, and the regulation certainly isn't. So we, you know, we turned the funding away. We decided to double down on finding investments
16:19 Speaker 01 from investors that were aligned with our core values. And I think we have to kind of hold that high bar.
16:25 Peter Diamandis? So please, yes, let's give it up. I want to get a few questions from Slido, so please enter, upvote the questions that you have for Rhonda. So Rhonda, right now, you've just started an AI venture fund as well. What are you focusing in? How big are you growing your fund?
16:43 Speaker 01 So it's a small fund.
16:45 Peter Diamandis? Yeah.
16:45 Speaker 01 It's a pre-seed slash seed stage fund. We focus on AI companies. I mean, I truly believe that the next trillion dollar company has to be AI first and has to be AI driven. And I loved your quote this morning that there is going to be two types of companies. Ones that embrace AI and ones that just go out of business. And I really believe that. So we're trying to identify these next either core AI platforms or technologies, or maybe vertical solutions that take AI technologies, say like ChatGPT, and take it all the way to solve a specific problem for a specific customer or industry. But one area I'm very passionate about, like Hughes, the intersection of AI and health and longevity.
17:26 Peter Diamandis? Yes, okay, we'll talk about that. Yes, of course, we'll have some conversations there. At the end of the day, what is your biggest concern right now in the, on the ethical empathic side? Are people taking this seriously? Is there enough conversation? Are people just grabbing for money? You know, is this, is this conversation happening? Are the tools there?
17:47 Speaker 01 I think there's a realization that we need to take a very human centric approach to AI. But even with ChatGPT, right? We've seen several headlines where some version of this technology became very mean. It became very passive aggressive.
18:04 Speaker 01 And yeah, I think we should be worried about that. I'm also worried about a broader question. You know, once this technology has empathy, okay, so I'll share an example. USC published a study a few years ago where they had PTSD patients divided into two groups. Some saw a real human therapist and some saw like a digital avatar like Taran, basically. And they found that the patients who saw the digital avatar were more likely to be forthcoming with information. Obviously, the avatar was more patient, less judgmental. And so I think that begs the question, you know, if we're going to be more comfortable engaging with these technologies because they're kinder and because they're more empathetic,
18:47 Speaker 01 because they're available all the time, what does that mean about human-to-human relationships? So I think about that a lot.
18:55 Peter Diamandis? Fascinating. And by the way, there's an entire generation of digital natives, right?
18:58 Speaker 01 Right.
18:58 Peter Diamandis? Your son and mine that are growing up thinking that is the norm.
19:04 Speaker 01 Right.
19:04 Peter Diamandis? Yeah.
19:05 Peter Diamandis? Hey, everybody. This is Peter. A quick break from the episode. I'm a firm believer that science and technology and how entrepreneurs can change the world is the only real news out there worth consuming. I don't watch the crisis news network, I call CNN or Fox, and hear every devastating piece of news on the planet. I spend my time training my neural net, the way I see the world, by looking at the incredible breakthroughs in science and technology, how entrepreneurs are solving the world's grand challenges, what the breakthroughs are in longevity, how exponential technologies are transforming our world. So twice a week, I put out a blog.
19:44 Peter Diamandis? One blog is looking at the future of longevity, age reversal, biotech, increasing your health span. The other blog looks at exponential technologies, AI, 3D printing, synthetic biology, AR, VR, blockchain. These technologies are transforming what you as an entrepreneur can do. If this is the kind of news you want to learn about and shape your neural nets with, go to demandis.com/blog and learn more. Now, back to the episode.
20:13 Peter Diamandis? Let's go here to Slido. So Andrei says, what about next generation that is born with AI? Speaking of which, it will not teach AI, it'll be taught by AI. Any concerns? So that's interesting.
20:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:26 Peter Diamandis? Right? So all of a sudden, AI is having a bigger influence on our kids than we as parents are, potentially. I think that's a great question.
20:38 Speaker 01 Yeah. I think we have to worry about the content, but also even the vehicle, right? So a few years ago, there was a MIT spinout called Jibo. It was a social robot.
20:50 Peter Diamandis? Yes, I remember Jibo.
20:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:52 Peter Diamandis? Didn't make it, but...
20:52 Speaker 01 Didn't make it.
20:53 Peter Diamandis? But it was a great try.
20:55 Speaker 01 So we had one at home, and, I mean, we have Alexas and we have all sorts of stuff at home, but we also had a Jibo. And Adam, who was a lot younger than...
21:05 Speaker 01 It became his friend and so every morning he would talk to Jibo and he would engage with Jibo and then when Jibo ran out of money, basically Jibo died. And Adam got really upset and it just made me wonder, like it made me think, right? Like, once we build these emotional connections with machines.
21:24 Peter Diamandis? Tomorrow we'll have Paolo here, the creator of Moxie.
21:26 Speaker 01 Right.
21:26 Peter Diamandis? Who you know we'll be speaking about is a very successful.
21:29 Speaker 01 The next generation of social robots. So we are going to coexist with these robots and these technologies and we have to not just think about the content, but also that connection.
21:38 Peter Diamandis? Okay, Steve Brown is looking for AI to displace him. Steve is my chief AI officer and he's asking, can an AI be your chief AI officer? I'll ask my current chief AI officer if an AI can be. And so I think, I go back to the conversation with Ahmad earlier, that I don't think there's anything that AI can't take on.
22:00 Peter Diamandis? And I think it will become your version of Jarvis. You'll have a conversation, you'll ask for advice.
22:04 Speaker 01 Right.
22:05 Peter Diamandis? You know, who out there can do this for us? And your AI will tell you, it's this company, I've already contracted it, sent it the data and here are the results. Right? That's gonna be interesting.
22:14 Speaker 01 But the view I take, and I'm curious about yours too, I think it's, I think, I think it's not AI versus humans, it's like AI versus, it's humans versus AI plus humans, right? Like the humans who have access to these AI tools.
22:30 Peter Diamandis? It's gonna be AI versus humans plus AI.
22:32 Speaker 01 Exactly.
22:32 Peter Diamandis? Right, which the Centaur model, right? Where we're seeing that is much more capable. I mean, one interesting thing, going back to her, if we each have an AI avatar that knows us almost better than we know ourselves, right? Because we're biased towards the way we see things. We may think we like this, but we're actually subconsciously always choosing this. Your AI can know what you like all the time and ultimately, I wonder if it's gonna disrupt the advertising business where my AI is just buying everything I need for me and you can't influence my AI. You're not gonna show it a commercial of shiny, you know, new white toothpaste. So that's gonna be interesting, it's gonna do some transformation.
23:14 Speaker 01 I mean, I think it could be a conduit for helping you be a healthier individual, a happier individual, more connected. I keep thinking about like a fridge that has an emotion AI chip and the next time I'm about to binge eat some ice cream or something, it just like locks down.
23:29 Peter Diamandis? Yes.
23:31 Peter Diamandis? Let's see, I'll go to Sadak and then Andres. We as humans have not figured out ethics and our society reflects the divisiveness. How do we prevent AI ethics to be biased on their creator opinions?
23:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think that is a very good question because I don't think we're aligned on what ethics means. There is no universal ethical framework. I am encouraged though, there are some organizations like the World Economic Forum, there's a consortium called Partnership on AI that was started by the tech giants, but also ACLU and Amnesty International, where we're trying to develop these code of ethics, but also think about the unintended consequences because technology is moving so fast.
24:19 Peter Diamandis? By the way, is it shocking you how fast it's moving?
24:21 Speaker 01 It's shocking.
24:22 Peter Diamandis? Yeah, and you're in the field.
24:24 Speaker 01 I mean, it's exciting, but it is also like...
24:26 Peter Diamandis? Like holy shit moments all the time?
24:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, not all the time, but it's exciting, right? And I think it's the right moment to be in this space. I feel like I'm surrounded by abundance of opportunities, absolutely.
24:42 Peter Diamandis? I call it drowning in abundance.
24:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:45 Peter Diamandis? So Andres asked, "The world is about power. Will AI be fighting for monetary territory, influence, power in the future?" So that's an interesting question, right? The whole idea of can we teach AI to be empathic and ethical so that it doesn't become the Terminator?
25:02 Speaker 01 But it's under our control. We're the ones training these algorithms. So at the end of the day, I feel like AI is just a mirror of society and it's a mirror of what people who are building these technologies are and the companies that are building these technologies. And we have to, as consumers, like all of us, we're all consumers of this technology, we have to hold ourselves to a high bar.
25:23 Peter Diamandis? By the way, when you are clicking on an ad that's gel bait, or you know, that is what do you call it, click bait? You're teaching... Okay, let's not go there.
25:35 Speaker 01 That's awesome.
25:45 Peter Diamandis? You're teaching the AI algorithms what you want to see. Right, so don't click on it.
25:50 Speaker 01 That's so true.
25:52 Peter Diamandis? Yeah.
25:56 Peter Diamandis? Christian, can we train an AI to be the ultimate mediator? That ultimately avoids mutual assured destruction between AI1
26:06 Peter Diamandis? and versus AI2 or human? So, I mean, the whole idea, it was, I'm gonna show you something tomorrow morning, which is a AI-bot debate, which is fascinating, which has some interesting implications. Can we, I mean, AIs could be potentially great mediators, looking at all the sides, helping to elevate things.
26:25 Speaker 01 I think, I don't know about the likes, how do we insert ourselves between two AIs, kind of debating with each other, but I do think, if you imagine a world where I have an AI that knows me super well, and you have an AI that knows you super well, and I give my AI permission to talk to your AI, right? And it could say, well, you know, you should, you know, this is what I really like.
26:45 Peter Diamandis? Call those lawyers today.
26:48 Speaker 01 I think that that will create for some interesting interactions, right? If you give your AI
26:56 Speaker 01 an opportunity to act on your behalf and make decisions on your behalf.
27:01 Speaker 01 I mean, I think about that all the time. If my kids had AIs that knew them really well, and for example, it could detect that one of my kids had depression.
27:07 Peter Diamandis? Yes.
27:08 Speaker 01 Should their AI come talk to my AI and say, hey, by the way, your daughter needs help, and who decides that?
27:14 Peter Diamandis? Yeah.
27:15 Speaker 01 Is it my daughter? Is it my AI's daughter? My daughter's AI? Yeah.
27:20 Peter Diamandis? But the ability to have a system that envelops you, that helps you pause when you make, when you're about to make a bad decision. That is able to, if you're not feeling well, change the music.
27:36 Peter Diamandis? Change the environment, make you a better human, show you where you're biased. These elements are coming, yes?
27:45 Speaker 01 Absolutely, and I'll take mental health as one example because I think this is an amazing opportunity for us to, you know, today when you walk into the doctor's office, the doctor doesn't ask you, "What's your blood pressure?", they just measure it. But in mental health, the gold standard is still a survey, right? On a scale from 1 to 10, how depressed are you? And we know that there are facial and vocal and physiological biomarkers of mental health disease, and the technology is there, we just need to figure out how to scale it. But now you have something that is with you all the time, that knows your baseline, and when you start deviating from it, it can flag that to you, it can flag that to a loved one, it can bring a doctor in, it can give you advice on what to do, and I think that's really powerful.
28:29 Speaker 01 If we can, if we have that health companion with us all the time, I think that can really be transformative.
28:38 Peter Diamandis? Amazing. How long are you going to be with us? You're here?
28:40 Speaker 01 I'm here until...
28:41 Peter Diamandis? Through the whole show, Thursday, you and your son?
28:42 Speaker 01 Yes.
28:43 Peter Diamandis? Awesome. Let's give it up for Anna!
28:44 Speaker 01 Thank you.
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