ROLL ON: Enhanced Games

Roll On, but enhanced! Adam Skolnick came over to help make sense of the Enhanced Games, the pay-for-PEDs enterprise that just went down behind a Vegas casino. Think Idiocracy meets The Hunger Games, with Bryan Johnson calling the action from under a giant UV umbrella. It veers dystopian: looksmaxxing, narcissism dressed up as self-optimization, and the slow creep toward transhumanism. Ultimately: why train at all? Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com Momentous: Get up to 35% off your first order of Fiber+👉🏼livemomentous.com/richroll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://www.rivian.com Seed: Use code RICHROLL25 for 25% off your first month of DS-01®👉🏼https://www.seed.com/RichRoll Ollie: Get 70% off your Welcome Kit with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.ollie.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout. Hey, everybody. Today, we're going to talk about the ENHANZE Games, the event that transpired in Las Vegas the other weekend. Adam and I are going to share our thoughts on what it was, what happened, what we make of it, our perspective, the implications, both financial, cultural, ethical, et cetera, and dig into our personal opinions on it.

• 1:29Rich Roll?

  Does that sound good, Adam? It sounds good, man. I love it. Are these UV safe lights? I don't know. You didn't bring your umbrella? My umbrella! You didn't bring your umbrella? Okay, we're going to talk about that. But first, before we get into it, for those that don't know what the ENHANZE Games are, this somehow eclipsed your radar. The ENHANZE Games is a, obviously controversial, privately funded, international, multi-sport event that lacks any kind of governmental body oversight from like WADA or the International Olympic Committee. And in this event, they don't just permit athletes to use performance-enhancing drugs,

• 2:09Rich Roll?

  they actually encourage it, with the caveat that the use of these substances must be under medical supervision and taken through an FDA-approved regimen. They also, at the ENHANZE Games, offered significant prize money.

• 2:28Rich Roll?

  Especially if you broke a world record, we're going to talk about that. And this all took place the other weekend in Las Vegas. It was 42 athletes across three sports, swimming, track and field and weightlifting. And it was only a few events here and there. I think they had aspirations that it was going to be like all sports and there were going to be hundreds of athletes. But this was the inaugural event. So humble beginnings, but my perspective is this is only the first year of an event that is going to grow over time. And we talked a little bit about it before the event. Do you remember you were on the phone?

• 3:07Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, yes.

• 3:08Rich Roll?

  And you were asked.

• 3:08Adam Skolnick?

  Like a couple of days before.

• 3:09Rich Roll?

  You were asked by some publication to write an article about this.

• 3:13Adam Skolnick?

  No, no, I was a Canadian broadcasting company. So I was asked by Canadian radio to be on the show called Commotion, which is a pop culture and sports show. And I've been on there before for different articles I've written or something I've covered. Like the Olympic surfing was the first time I think I was on there. And so they asked me to be on there and comment on the enhanced games. But the caveat was I had to watch the enhanced games. So we hadn't talked about it. And then I called you, I'm like, I have to watch that. And you were like, couldn't wait to watch it. And I was like, I have to watch it. And so I watched it, you know, I was, I was like, I think the early prelim events, I was kind of like just keeping tabs on. But then once it was like on, like from like three o'clock Pacific time on, I was basically watching the whole thing throughout the night.

• 3:57Adam Skolnick?

  And yeah, so I saw it all. I saw the, and, and it was interesting because the broadcast of it was, I thought it was well done. The broadcast part of it was well done. And I thought it was interesting. They built this arena in 30 days, 30 days, 100 meter track, 50 meter pool. We think, I mean, we think these measurements are correct.

• 4:17Rich Roll?

  There's, there's a lot of, you know, like sort of conspiracy minded videos being made right now. It's like, was it a 50 meter pool? Are we sure there's no governing body? So we don't know. It's a private. It's a private event. It could be doing anything. But anyway.

• 4:33Adam Skolnick?

  Right. And so they build this thing and then there's all these seats, but and mostly luxury boxes with a little bit of bleachers. And for the beginning of the time, like when it was hot out, there was almost nobody in the bleachers. But it did end up getting kind of a lot of people there. Chad Kroeger from Chad Goes Deep posted from the from the Enhanced Games and who else? What was the?

• 4:53Rich Roll?

  Well, there were a lot of influencers there to make content.

• 4:55Adam Skolnick?

  Emile Hirsch, they was like, kind of in an interview scrum at one point. He was there. So it was like this weird, but yeah, it was like, kind of Manasseh or Jason influencer type crowd that they brought in. And, you know, it was a curiosity. That's the thing I would point to it right now. It's a curiosity. It's curious because they did get some amazing athletes. I mean, you do see these athletes. These guys weren't playing. Like, they were going for big money. Fred Curly was there, who's an incredible sprinter. Some great swimmers, maybe not everybody that you'd think would be there because like the best ones don't want to be associated with it.

• 5:31Rich Roll?

  So when we first talked on the phone about this, you were of the mind that this was going to be something that nobody was really going to care about. And I was of the opinion, like, I think this is going to go viral.

• 5:46Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 5:47Rich Roll?

  Like, this is a meme factory in waiting. And I felt like it was going to, despite the fact that we no longer have a monoculture, there are certainly very large cohorts of people in certain pockets of the internet who are very interested in this. This event transpired at a moment in time when we're hitting like peak self optimization. We have all of these, you know, fitness influencers who are modeling like the ultimate male physique. We have a fascination with health span, extension and longevity. It's this.

• 6:30Rich Roll?

  Cultural paradigm shift towards focusing on looks. There's the looks maxing thing. I mean, this is you coined it. It's like this was the clavicular Olympics. So anyone who is part of that looks maxing culture or that health extension culture, or the self optimization culture, you know, writ large is going to be interested in this and is going to be waiting with bated breath to see what happens. And there's a lot of people who want to see like the ultimate human animal, like without a shirt on and trying to perform athletically. So I felt like it was all teed up to be a moment where there was going to be

• 7:14Rich Roll?

  a lot of conversation around this. And maybe it's just my feed, but like my feed was like 90% enhanced games on social media. And then in the wake of the enhanced games, then it was the even bigger games, the discourse games began and all the conversation around this on, you know, both sides of the aisle and, you know, every possible take you could imagine. And that seems to be continuing. It feels like maybe not a monoculture moment, but certainly intriguing enough that there's a lot of people talking about this right now. And it's polarizing.

• 7:50Adam Skolnick?

  It is. I mean, that's why I called it a curiosity because people are curious about this. Everyone is curious. Look, nobody wants to die. Let's put it that way. And we all want it. Nobody wants to age. You know, I'm sitting here. I have like a like a list of maladies that I would like improvement on. And I get it. Like, I understand, just as I understand athletes wanting to compete for these dollar amounts and needing the support. I understand people who are curious about trying to stay as healthy as possible and live as long as possible. It's just, you know, human nature. We would all love it. We all the search for the Holy Grail is real. Like, it's that's what this is. It's kind of like the clavicular Olympics, the love child of the manosphere and the search for the Holy Grail, like one sporting event at a time. Like, this is what's going on, right? So it's a curiosity because it's

• 8:34Adam Skolnick?

  a weird athletic event. It's a curiosity because we're all living in these very curious times and seeing can we can we move the needle a little bit? Can we stay fit longer? Can we, you know, and so that's what's so interesting about it. But, you know, will it work long term? Will do these enhancements work?

• 8:54Rich Roll?

  Let's get into, you know, what actually happened before we get into, you know, our analysis. Breaking it down, like on the track, both premier sprint events were won by clean athletes. We had in the men, we had Fred Curly go 997. You know, I mean, you know, come on, like this is not like anything to get too excited about. It's pretty pedestrian. If you want real track and field analysis of this event, I suggest going to see what Steve Magnus has to say about this on either YouTube or on X or any of the social media platforms. He's been very outspoken about how lackluster the track and field performances were. In the women's 100 meter dash, Tristan Evelyn went 11.25.

• 9:37Rich Roll?

  And according to Steve, two 14 year old girls have run this fast this year. So this is nothing to get very excited about. In the pool.

• 9:46Adam Skolnick?

  Except for Tristan Evelyn, who won Evelyn, who won $250,000.

• 9:50Rich Roll?

  Well, she won money. Yeah, we're going to get into that. In the pool, we had one world record, Christian Golemev, who was already the world record holder on the 50 freestyle in an enhanced condition a year prior. And he won a million dollars for breaking his world record. And that begs the question of what was at play here? Because in the pool, they were wearing the Faskin suits that were outlawed many years ago.

• 10:16Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 10:17Rich Roll?

  And my perspective and opinion is that the suit had way more to do with what was happening in the pool than these enhancements. There's a reason those suits were outlawed.

• 10:27Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 10:28Rich Roll?

  When they were, and it took a long time before anybody broke any of the world records that were set in that suit. In the 50 meter back, Hunter Armstrong won as a clean athlete. And the big flop was James Magnuson. I mean, he was sort of the athlete that everyone was looking towards to be this, you know, beast that was going to break the world record in the 50 freestyle. He's the guy who ballooned up gigantic and realized he was too big and then, you know, spent time narrowing his body down. And he was really not even a factor in the pool at all. In weightlifting, in the deadlift, Thor Bjornson and Mitchell Hooper both failed at trying to hit 510 kilograms, which I guess was would have been a world best.

• 11:10Adam Skolnick?

  Cersei's going to be pissed.

• 11:12Rich Roll?

  You know, like there was nothing really outstanding to note. And it seemed like the people that were. Most successful with these enhancements were the older athletes who who were putting in performances that approximated what they could do when they were younger.

• 11:29Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 11:29Rich Roll?

  In the pool, there were some personal bests, but again, you have to ask yourself, how much did the suit come into play?

• 11:36Adam Skolnick?

  Well.

• 11:36Rich Roll?

  But other than that, like, you can really make the argument that it was a big giant nothing burger. I love the fact that Brian Johnson was the color commentator here. When he showed up at that desk with the umbrella, I laughed out loud. I thought it was hilarious. He is a very talented meme lord, of course. He knows exactly what he's doing to garner attention and create discourse and and and kind of be provocative. And I like that about Brian. You know, I think that his sort of vampiric, you know, like sort of persona and ethos and the way he carries himself and the way that he is so transparent about what he's doing is certainly high entertainment.

• 12:20Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 12:21Rich Roll?

  I've spent time with him. I had him on the podcast. I enjoy his company. I respect what he's doing. I think that he's earnest and I feel like I understand him. And I think that he is operating in goodwill in this like journey that he's on to try to unlock longevity. And I think there is social value in having him run these experiments on himself and then share transparently his results. But he's also kind of a cartoon character.

• 12:53Adam Skolnick?

  At this point, yeah.

• 12:54Rich Roll?

  And, you know, he really understands the internet. He he makes brilliant content that that is, again, provocative and gets people talking about what he's doing. And his whole kind of shtick at the enhanced games was that

• 13:09Rich Roll?

  these athletes are doing the exact same thing that he's doing. He is trying to push the envelope on what's possible in terms of human longevity. And these athletes in this organization is trying to push the envelope on what's Possible from a human performance perspective in athletics. And therein lies their kind of shared DNA or wisdom. At the same time, what's good for longevity is orthogonal to performance. And what's good for performance is typically at odds with longevity. So these are actually oppositional forces.

• 13:45Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 13:45Rich Roll?

  But they are both pushing the outer limits on what's possible. And I can see why Brian's attracted to what's happening in this world.

• 13:55Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, I mean, his, his whole point was there are 14 PBs across 12 events, right? Most of them were in the pool, right? You said they weren't really on the track because maybe the track was slow. We don't know because the speed of the track could vary too. I mean, remember it's on a platform above the ground. So it's not getting the same bounce, I would guess, that you'd get if it was just on the ground.

• 14:15Rich Roll?

  Well, and I would also argue that the pool didn't look like a fast pool. I mean, you're not going to, you're, a four lane pool is not a setup for breaking world records, especially if you're in an end lane or you're doing anything more than 50 meters. Because once you do your flip turn and come off the wall, a four lane pool is going to generate a lot more wave motion on the way back.

• 14:36Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Rich Roll?

  Than a 10 lane pool, which is an Olympic pool where the outside lanes are empty. There's so much more space to like, make sure that the, not just the surface of the water, but underneath is calm.

• 14:50Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 14:50Rich Roll?

  And that makes a huge difference. I don't know how deep the pool was. I think it was something like six feet.

• 14:55Adam Skolnick?

  Six feet, didn't look deep.

• 14:56Rich Roll?

  But even that is a little bit shallow, I think. So it wasn't a pool that was constructed in a way that would lend itself to breaking world records. But anyway.

• 15:07Adam Skolnick?

  Not like the Paris pool that was like just manufacturing records, right? In the Olympics and wasn't that a fast pool or were they saying it wasn't?

• 15:15Rich Roll?

  Um, I think there were some. Concerns about how fast that pool was. But typically, you're going to have a very deep pool and a very wide pool with in with like an exceptional gutter system.

• 15:26Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 15:26Rich Roll?

  To, you know, keep it as calm as keep the water as calm as possible.

• 15:30Adam Skolnick?

  It was very splashy.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  So anyway.

• 15:32Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, but I mean, so I think they're selling it as PBs. So they spun it that way. But to to your point about the, there were two women swimmers and I'm gonna, I don't have their names right in front of me, but one was Ben Proud's wife. She hadn't been in the pool, I think it was five years, four to five years. She hadn't been swimming and she just went to the training camp in Abu Dhabi. Was that where the training camp was? It was in, it was in, yeah, I think it was Abu Dhabi, like in January or something. And so they were just like sequestered there for whatever 90 days or 100 days and then they came here. And so, you know, she got a PB. She hadn't been swimming. She was an Olympic swimmer. And then there was the American who was 10 years hadn't competed. We should get her name because she won and they both won and she got, uh, yeah, they both won.

• 16:16Adam Skolnick?

  They both got $250,000 and she was a mother, you know, maybe, maybe they're both, but I know that the American is a mother. And so she won and she dominated. I mean, it was an amazing swim. And so that's interesting, right? That is interesting. That feeds their, their conversation that these can help you as an older athlete find some semblance of who you were before. And that is going to be a curiosity for people, something that they might even pursue because a lot of us are sitting around wanting to be able, not just to be better than I used to be or was, but like, I want to be able to do the things I want to do, just period. Like, I want to be able to go run when I want to or, yeah, I don't want to be limited by injuries or age.

• 16:58Adam Skolnick?

  And so there's a lot of us out there that are, that there's this group of people. Now, does this help you? Like the thing I think of, if, if there's a shortcut available to you, do you take it? Or do you, is actually the whole job of your life to make peace with the stage of life that you're in? And so that's the crux, I think, of the enhancements dilemma.

• 17:25Rich Roll?

  It's important to understand that that broadcast and the games itself was really on its face, a marketing device to sell people these enhancements. And they say as much, they're not trying to hide this fact.

• 17:44Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 17:45Rich Roll?

  So by holding this event and sponsoring these athletes and paying them very well to perform, which I'm sympathetic to, it's very difficult to have a career in any of these sports with any kind of longevity and support yourself. So I have no judgment on the athletes who decided that they wanted to do this. I mean, Cody Miller, the swimmer is like, he wanted to keep swimming and I've been following this guy for a long time. He makes YouTube videos about his swimming career. And, uh, you know, the enhanced games came along and offered him a lifeline. They're going to pay him and, you know, basically support him. And they have like followed through on that promise to him and he went and did some personal best, good for him.

• 18:29Rich Roll?

  And he got paid a lot of money to do it.

• 18:31Adam Skolnick?

  Half a million dollars.

• 18:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but let's be clear on what's actually going on here. Like the whole point of this business is to basically make these enhancements look attractive by showing what they can do in these athletes so that they can sell them to people like you just described, the middle aged person who maybe threw a touchdown pass, you know, 20 years ago and wishes they still could, you know, who's, who's susceptible to this marketing message, which is that you can, you can get strong and feel good again. Like who doesn't want that, right?

• 19:07Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 19:08Rich Roll?

  Or the young person who's like, I want to look like that.

• 19:11Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 19:11Rich Roll?

  Like, what's the quickest way I can get there? And I think most people in most situations are going to opt for the path of least resistance to get there.

• 19:20Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 19:20Rich Roll?

  And there really isn't any responsible messaging around the risks and the dangers of, of using these things. Yes, they may have and do have in certain situations.

• 19:36Rich Roll?

  A positive impact on performance, but what are the long-term trades that you're making for that? Like, what happens if you are young and you decide you want to be on these and you order them through the website and you just start using them for years and years and years and years? Many of these things are not tested on human beings, or we already know what those risks and dangers are. And we've seen what happens to other athletes who have used them, who have died prematurely, or have had health, you know, serious health considerations later in life.

• 20:06Adam Skolnick?

  Which, which substances are you talking about?

• 20:08Rich Roll?

  Well, their whole pitch is, we're actually doing this in a safe context. And by taking it out of the shadows, and we're, we're providing an on-ramp for people so that they don't order from shadowy sources and do it in an unsupervised way. So their, their, their argument is like, they're making it safer than it would be otherwise for the person who's going to use this anyway. But what they're doing is they're basically normalizing this use and making it widely accessible to people who may never even, because it's not, it's not seamless enough, like, wouldn't have ever, like, explored getting these things.

• 20:48Adam Skolnick?

  And we're talking about testosterone, right? And HGH was used, right?

• 20:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't have the whole rundown, but it's a whole battery of things like that.

• 20:56Adam Skolnick?

  Right, yeah. But those were in there?

• 20:58Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 20:58Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. And was it, was it EP, was it some sort of oxygen? Or no, was it?

• 21:03Rich Roll?

  EPO.

• 21:04Adam Skolnick?

  Was it EPO? Was that allowed?

• 21:05Rich Roll?

  I think so, yeah.

• 21:06Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. So EPO was allowed. So some of these you were talking about, some of these really are about recovering so you can train more. It's not really to make you faster, just taking them makes you faster. It's that it allows you to train harder and, and without breaks, correct?

• 21:21Rich Roll?

  Well, that's true of all of these things.

• 21:23Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right.

• 21:23Rich Roll?

  And recovery is training. So anything that's going to enhance your recovery pharmacologically is a training enhancement, because if you can recover quickly, you can train harder, more consistently, without getting sick or overtraining. And the harder you can push yourself, the more consistently, then you're going to realize gains.

• 21:44Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 21:45Rich Roll?

  So you could take a substance, it blows your muscles up, but like, you still, you, in all of these situations, you still have to train.

• 21:51Adam Skolnick?

  Yes.

• 21:52Rich Roll?

  It doesn't obviate training.

• 21:54Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 21:54Rich Roll?

  And I think we've seen that these aren't Miracles, you know what I mean? Like, otherwise, like, every world record would have been broken.

• 22:01Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right.

• 22:02Rich Roll?

  And so you can have two perspectives on this. Either you can say, well, these performance enhancing drugs, maybe they're not like all that, you know, compared to what I thought. Or the, the argument that a lot of people are making is, well, this just proves that everybody at the Olympics is using them. Otherwise, they're already using them. Otherwise, like, all these world records would have been broken. I don't think that's the case.

• 22:26Adam Skolnick?

  No.

• 22:26Rich Roll?

  And I'm not saying that, like, you know, all sport is clean. There's plenty of people that are using performance enhancing drugs at the highest level. But I think it's quite the overstatement to say that, like, everybody's using them or that it's like completely, you know, across the board, you should assume that they are. I, I don't think that that's true.

• 22:45Adam Skolnick?

  I don't either. I don't think that's true because the testing has gotten better and stronger and more often. So it's, it's like they're catching people and some people do, do, do use it and do get through. We've seen that in every era of sports. But I think the big problem with this event in terms of like, from a viewership perspective, and I know their goal is to sell products, but like, the problem is, is that unless you're really a super fan of these sports, like Olympic sports without the best people isn't that interesting. It's the same, it's same of everything. Like, like basketball, like, we like the NBA. We, we don't love necessarily, we're not like hungry to go watch a high school basketball game. That doesn't mean these guys, not to compare those, those levels, but these are not the best guys in the world. They would have liked to get the best guys in the world.

• 23:30Adam Skolnick?

  They didn't get the best guys in the world because, like you said before, the Olympic committees were saying, some of them were saying, we're going to ban anybody, we're not going to deal with anybody who's involved in this, clean or not clean. And so there was incentive to not be in it. And so, so there's that. It's not that interesting if you don't have the best people. Like, it's much more interesting to see Usain Bolt run clean, get his record in the Olympics. That is a thrilling thing to watch as a, as a spectator. This was not thrilling to watch as a spectator. It was like, you said, it was like a kind of a slow thud. I mean, that's what it felt like. And so. How long can this survive if they keep giving us that? Because A, it's going to say, well, they still can't get records. And so only Golomev has ever gotten a record. He's gotten it twice now.

• 24:15Adam Skolnick?

  He's a beast. I mean, he's a 6'6" swimmer in the prime of his life. He's like 32, I think, 31, 32. He's an absolute beast and he's in this speed suit. And so he's gotten it twice. Good for him. He's amazing. And that was interesting to watch. But like, if you can only think one guy in two years has gotten it. Like, if you keep giving us that, it's not going to survive because the company won't, won't do well.

• 24:38Rich Roll?

  Well, I have, I have a retort to this.

• 24:40Adam Skolnick?

  Okay.

• 24:41Rich Roll?

  First of all, uh, money talks. And this was the first year. And there's a lot of starving Olympic athletes out there. And maybe watching that or just being aware that that happened last weekend is going to lodge into their brains. And they're going to think, well, I could go to Olympic trials and maybe make the team. I'm never going to get a gold medal. Maybe I can make the final. Why don't I just go over here and maybe I can win a million dollars instead? So there's going to be that incentive structure now in place.

• 25:20Rich Roll?

  That's going to influence and funnel more athletes year after year into this world. Especially as the culture continues to shift and the perspective on using these things has changed. It's, they're basically, what they're doing is they're taking it out of the shadows and the dark. And they're stripping it of all its shame inducing qualities. And they're saying, not only are they saying it's okay to use these, they're saying it's aspirational to use these.

• 25:48Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 25:48Rich Roll?

  So that's a very different message and perspective on these things. And if that gets anchored, that's going to influence how people think about their athletic careers. And that's a lot of money. When you look at like what the Olympics pays, like it doesn't even compare. I mean, Ryan Lochte said the other day, like, oh, he can totally understand. Like you only get paid, what do you get paid? $50,000 for a gold medal or something like that? Like, this is a whole different universe.

• 26:16Adam Skolnick?

  Totally.

• 26:16Rich Roll?

  So there's that. And then the other thing, and we talked about this the other day, whenever there's a new sporting event or a new league, most of these things fail because they're reliant upon ticket sales. And so they might come out with a successful first year, but they dwindle over time because people lose interest. But this does not rely upon broadcast rights or ticket sales because they're selling a product.

• 26:41Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 26:41Rich Roll?

  And as long as they can get guys who look really good with their shirts off, who perform at least well, they don't even have to break world records, it's still going to influence people to go to the website and purchase these things without really evaluating the risks and the dangers. Because we're all hardwired to seek out the path of least resistance. And when you watch these games, the messaging is like very clear, like we're, we're trying to make superhumans and now it's possible and you can do this. And they're implicit in all of that is that this is, this is safe and encouraged as opposed to

• 27:23Rich Roll?

  slow down, let's be careful, let's really evaluate what we're doing here. And when you have like media personalities and social media influencers and people who wield influence over how people think about these things, that, that's not nothing, you know, I think that that changes people's minds over time. And this is a, this is like you're turning around like a giant, you know, cargo vessel here, like it's going to take time. But I think that this is not going away. And I think they'll do it again next year and it'll be bigger and it'll continue to grow. And it's weird, you know, because it is very discomforting to me because it is very Hunger Games and it is very looks maxing, Manosphere

• 28:08Rich Roll?

  adjacent and strange. And even the characters that are surrounding this are weird, you know, it's like this Maximilian guy, the CEO is like a Bond villain.

• 28:18Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 28:18Rich Roll?

  And all of the, the people who are involved in this world are also.

• 28:24Rich Roll?

  They're also enhancing themselves. Like they're enhancing themselves just as much as all of the athletes.

• 28:29Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 28:30Rich Roll?

  And, and they're free to, they're telling you all about it and all this sort of thing. And like, I can think like, I don't know. I don't know. But like, what's, let's check in in five years.

• 28:40Adam Skolnick?

  Right. Well, I was gonna, I want to say two things about the two threads you touched on. One is, yeah, you're right. Like, my argument is that as a sports event, this won't work unless you can make it captivating. And, and you're right about that. This is the biggest payday anyone in swimming has ever gotten. That's, that's the facts. Like, this is the biggest payout any professional swimmer ever got. It's the biggest prize package they've ever got. So that's amazing, right? So there's all sorts of swimmers watching that. And you're right, the funnel's gonna get bigger and they're gonna have more athletes that want it. And not just as if I can't make the Olympic team, they might try for 28 and then they'll, their goal will be 29. Or they might be like, you know what, I'm not close enough. I'm gonna come into this in 27. I agree with you. I think that's gonna happen. But as we've just

• 29:23Adam Skolnick?

  seen with the golf league, with the Saudis bought all these great golfers, the funnel of athletes that come in is only one part of it. Having better athletes will make it more interesting. But if they can't break records and we get more nothing burgers like this, and it's still not the best, all the best guys, it's not, it will progress. I agree with you. There's gonna be an arc of progression here the next few years. But it won't last unless it can satisfy one of those two, because their, their play to market this stuff will start, because the, the, there's gonna be more and more analysis of what they're selling. This is the beginning. So there's a honeymoon period where no one's even asking what they're selling. The bigger it gets, there's gonna be more about what they're selling, what's in it, how is it working? And you're gonna see that. So I actually

• 30:08Adam Skolnick?

  don't know that, I'm not gonna predict that it's gonna just continue on forward. You might be right. But the second piece of it is looking at our ethics and the way things are in just in all strata of society. Brian Johnson was the lead on this, but they're trying to make it seem like we're the honest ones. And it's not just, this is a sports version of it, right? We're the honest ones. We're telling you, we have honor. We're telling you what we're doing. We're not hiding. Those people over there, the institutions, they're the ones that are full of shadows. They're the ones that are not honest. They are the ones without honor. And it's the same thing that is being used in politics. It's the same thing being used up and down strata of society. We're the honorable ones.

• 30:51Rich Roll?

  Right. It's a, it's a sports version of being red pilled.

• 30:54Adam Skolnick?

  That's right. It's a sports version of that. And it's extremely dangerous because often people want to believe it because there's always a threat of truth. The threat of truth is there's always going to be dirty athletes doing it because they want the glory, right? That's just, that's just the way it goes. And, and there's always going to be institutions that do things the wrong way. The process wasn't followed right. I mean, I just posted about this wildlife crossing. You wouldn't believe how many people care about the state budget, how much this thing costs. You know what I mean? Because, because, and there's a threat of that, that's true, right? Like, it is frustrating to have bloated institutions that can't get things done. And so this is an expensive thing. So, so this is like that. So there's threads of truth. However, when you are taking a threat

• 31:36Adam Skolnick?

  of truth and using that to, to somehow subjugate the institution and then present yourself as the purveyor of truth, that's why you call him a Bond villain. Because clearly, as we all know, people who've had substance issues in our life, I've had some, not to the level of, of someone who's in recovery, but I've had them. One thing you learn pretty quickly is you can't trust a drug dealer. I mean, that's like the number one rule. I've never met one drug dealer that I trusted in my life. That's just the number one rule. And so enhancements, to me, it is in that same scope. You can't trust Maximilian. He's not telling you everything either. And so this guy who says he's honest. So he's a symbol, and this, this, this organization is a symbol of where we're at ethically, which is this

• 32:21Adam Skolnick?

  muddy slippery place. And how, how far will we slip? You know, at the same time this is happening, AI is going crazy and people are on ChatGPT. Or using anthropic and now there's, there's literally robot cleaning crews in San Francisco. And so are we going towards cyborg territory? It's not crazy to ask that question. And will these enhancement people be the ones, the first people to put some weird thing chip in their body? That they think is going to make them live longer? I mean, this is, this is ethically where we're going.

• 32:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course. It's indicative of this cultural paradigm shift towards transhumanism on some level. Like it's a baby step in that direction. What Brian Johnson is doing in longevity, these athletes are doing in a performance athletic context. But the point is the same. Like, how do we leverage breakthroughs in technology to become more human? You know, superhuman, there's a, there's a really great podcast series. On the enhanced games by its GQ writer called superhuman. And he goes through all of it and including the ethical considerations. If you're interested in this, you should definitely check it out.

• 33:33Rich Roll?

  But it is emblematic of this moment in which we've lost our footing in terms of like virtue. And ethics and our kind of traditional sense of morality. Like that's out the window. What's important is how you look. And it doesn't matter what you needed to do to achieve that goal. All that matters is that you got it and you got it as quickly as possible. As opposed to kind of the whole reason we engage with sport to begin with, which is this virtuous thing where we're, we have respect for our competitors and we have respect for ourselves.

• 34:14Rich Roll?

  And it's kind of a sacred bond of pushing ourselves to our limits in an honest way to see what we're made of. And if you're doing that in a way that's facilitated by an exogenous source, even if everyone else is doing it.

• 34:32Rich Roll?

  What's the real value in that? I guess like it's this celebration of of the surface level and a and a dismissal of like the depth.

• 34:45Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 34:45Rich Roll?

  That you see across the board. This is an example of it, but we're seeing this culturally in like every category right now.

• 34:51Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 34:52Rich Roll?

  And that's it's like, oh, this is the this is this is where we see the seeds of the decline of the empire.

• 35:04Adam Skolnick?

  We've lost the idealistic. A lot of the online, there's no idealistic. It's all idealism. And that has leaked into the culture to a point that is unfortunate. What is beauty? You know, like you talk about, you want to look at that. And I think young people who are who are watching the games or who are looking at clavicular and thinking or looking at themselves, I mean, like, I'm not happy with how I look here. I'm not that's like a rite of passage. We all go through. We look in the mirror and we all we all want to be the best version of ourselves. This is, you know, the question you have to ask yourself is what does what is the definition of the best version of yourself? What's the definition of beauty? And those are the kinds of things you have to wrestle with, which are part of your ethics. That's part of the ethic programming. What is the definition of beauty? Is it really just skin deep?

• 35:49Adam Skolnick?

  Is it just how someone looks? Is it? What is it? And what is it to you? And that's something you you develop over time by making mistakes. But if you're trying to get it to look like this, you know, it's like going to the hairdresser. And when he when I was a kid and they'd say, which haircut do you want? It always felt foreign to me to poke at like, this is the haircut I want. It always felt like like removed from from like, you can't do that. It's impossible. Like, you can't have that exact haircut and you can't have you can't look exactly that way. It's almost impossible. So I think we have to get back to like our own ethical programming. And that's what we have to do. We have to be forget the transhumance. We have to become more human. And how do we in this era of?

• 36:33Adam Skolnick?

  Slippery truths in this era of drug dealer honesty. You know, we have to decide, how do we become more human, more natural? To me, that's the superpower. Can you become more natural? And so that's my, so I obviously have an aversion to it. And so maybe I'm more of a critic because of that or definitely. But I think that's for young people watching this. It should be the other question. While these people are doing the superhuman thing, the next thing is going to be more human.

• 37:03Rich Roll?

  I don't think you're being more critical than I am. I'm very critical of this. I'm just acknowledging that it's here and I think it's here to stay because it's so consistent with everything else that I'm seeing across the board in culture.

• 37:17Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 37:18Rich Roll?

  So it's hard for me to think that this is a flash in the pan. I think this is the spark of something that's going to grow. And that's deeply concerning to me. Why do we engage with sport? To find meaning, to find purpose. It's not for winning or accomplishments. It's to grapple with ourselves and in so doing, build self-esteem by confronting discomforts, working through them, accomplishing things, failing and developing a degree of self-understanding as a consequence of that, a truthful relationship with yourself. So if you're struggling with your self-esteem, the solution isn't to go to the Enhanced Games

• 38:01Rich Roll?

  website and get a substance that's going to solve that for you. That is not the answer. The answer is you gotta grapple with things that are difficult to do. And taking a shortcut is at cross purposes with the entire aim. Like you shouldn't be trying to hack your way to figure out how to finish a marathon with the least amount of training possible. You're only robbing yourself of the experience. Like the journey of getting there is the, that's, that's the value. That's the, that's the grist for growth. And these substances, while.

• 38:37Rich Roll?

  Effective to one degree or another, you have to ask yourself like, are they robbing you of the richness of that experience, the whole reason for getting involved in sport to begin with? Now, I'm sympathetic to like, you know, I'm turning 60 this year. I want to feel, I want to feel energetic. I want to like, I'm the perfect customer for these things. So, and I'm not saying that they don't have certain use cases for people. I'm not saying people shouldn't do it, and I don't want to shame or judge anybody that does. I'm just saying, be aware of what's happening and be cautious and use your judgment and really check yourself.

• 39:16Rich Roll?

  Like, what is your why? What is the why behind all of this? Like, my why for training is, again, like, having a truthful relationship with myself. And in that equation, like, this is just, this is something that doesn't really have a use case, you know? Maybe it'll make me feel better, that's great, but ultimately, it's not really why I engage with sports. And again, I'm sympathetic to the Cody Millers out there who like, are making really good money doing this. These athletes should be paid really well. Absolutely. You know, if not for nothing else, like, you know, kudos to Enhance Games for valuing these athletes.

• 39:59Rich Roll?

  But I heard an interview with Ben Proud, and he basically was like, listen, I've been competing at a very high level for a long time. I've never really gotten paid. And it is true that whether it's the Olympics for swimming, or, you know, some other organization for other sports, the athletes are like plebes, and they're leveraged for the profit interests of the organization. And they're not really paid what they should be getting paid. And Ben was like, I'm still, you know, subservient to the, to the agenda and the goals of the Enhance Games. Like, I recognize that I'm being used as a tool for them to sell these products, but at least I'm being compensated well. So, it's like a yes and, it's a both

• 40:43Rich Roll?

  in this situation. And I have, you know, deep reservations and concerns about the normalization of these products. Not only that they're Benign and could be helpful, but that again, they're aspirational. And there's this like kind of implicit message that everybody should be using these. And I think that that is wrong and irresponsible and, and very dangerous.

• 41:09Adam Skolnick?

  I second you on, on respecting the, the athletes. I mean, I have written about sports. I love, I love watching sports. I, I admire and respect athletes of all kinds. And I especially, and even these athletes that I saw, a lot of them clean or not, they looked and they, they were going for it. I mean, it was, I respect those guys and I understand how hard it is to, you know, after the Olympics, you know, after your Olympic career is over with, some, a lot of these ones were on the other side of that. They, they didn't really have a hope to go back to the Olympics. So this is giving them a chance to continue doing something they love. And they don't have to make that choice to transition to something else yet. That's a really vulnerable place financially and emotionally. And so it's kind of cool to see that. And there is respect for the athlete coming from enhance. You can feel that. And so that's cool.

• 41:55Adam Skolnick?

  I, I agree. I think you're talking about kind of why you train. It just made me think like you're, you're up at like four in the morning all the time now. Like you are, you went through a period where you, you were so physically unfit, injured that you couldn't do it. So what's driving you now? Like it's beyond just like, beyond just like you liked engaging in sport. Like what's driving you to get up at four in the morning to go at, to get after it like that now?

• 42:20Rich Roll?

  Well, first of all, it's just when I wake up. It's not like I'm setting an alarm and it's like so hard to get up. Like I literally get up when I get up and then I go to the gym. So it, it kind of plays like I'm being super disciplined, but the truth of the matter is like, you know, I wish I could sleep in more. I look forward to it. Like I enjoy it, you know? I'm enjoying the process of rebuilding my body. In the aftermath of this surgery, like losing the weight and the challenge of seeing if I can get fit and strong again, after atrophying and being so unfit, not just in the year since I had the surgery,

• 42:59Rich Roll?

  but the years leading up to that, where I was so compromised with this desire to be solid enough to see if I can start running and doing these other things. And that excites me and it gets me out of bed in the morning like. Enthusiastic about seeing what's possible for myself. But I'm at the age where performance goals don't really matter. It's like, I don't need to prove anything to anyone. I'm doing this as an act of honoring myself. Like, how can I love myself by getting fit and seeing what's possible? And modeling an aspirationally fit lifestyle at my age? You know, like, I think a lot about that.

• 43:40Rich Roll?

  Like, and I think a lot about my responsibility to the audience and the people that follow me to make sure that I'm doing it for the right reasons and that my why is intact. And I'm human, I have vanity. You know, it's like, I don't like being fat. Like, I like the fact that I've lost this weight and I'm fit and I can wear a tank top and not be embarrassed. Like, I like the vanity aspect of it too. Like, I'm not like immune from any of that. But I think my motivations are really, you know, coming from this place. I used to be very hard on like, I have to like do this to like prove my value and my worthiness. And I don't feel that anymore. And it's more like a self reverential practice.

• 44:23Rich Roll?

  And so I have a different, I have a more evolved relationship with it. And that actually makes it easier to go in and do it every day because it doesn't feel burdensome or tied to some kind of external thing that I'm chasing, some external reward. It's not results, it's not outcome oriented or focused. It's just loving this process.

• 44:48Adam Skolnick?

  For me, there's one outcome that I, that I get when I'm exercising and that's I just feel better. I just feel like I just mentally, I just mentally feel better. Like, you know, the endorphins, whatever it is.

• 44:58Rich Roll?

  The enhanced games has a product for that, Adam. You can get.

• 45:02Adam Skolnick?

  I've heard you can take these, uh, these micro doses. You could feel good all the time. No, but like, if you don't, you just don't feel good. I don't feel like my body and my mind are aligned. And so there's that outcome. And for me also, like, I'm old, you know, my wife is significantly younger than me and I've got a five and a half year old and like, I need to stay alive. So those are my two things. So like, like stay fit and stay alive and stay young for my age and then, and all that. So that's why I do it. But it's interesting, you and I have talked about this thing called uncertainty a lot lately. And it's almost like whether you're young or old, the urge to go for the enhancement is like almost filling that gap of uncertainty. I don't know if I can be as fast. I don't know

• 45:45Adam Skolnick?

  if I could ever look like that. This will make sure of it. You know what I mean? Almost like, it's like that internal like yearning to like fill that uncertain place. And we have a sell for that.

• 45:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. This is also taking place at a moment in time where everybody's talking about peptides. Like peptides are like the gateway drug here, right? Everybody's talking about peptides. We have the GLP ones, which have revolutionized basically, you know, weight loss in an incredible way. Like, again, like a net positive for people that have struggled with this, who are obese and all the downstream health complications as a result of that. And now there are all these other peptides that people are using that haven't undergone human trials that come with their risks. And we're seeing people take them very liberally. So

• 46:40Rich Roll?

  when I see that, I see, oh, well, if they're willing to do that, then they're willing to like, that's why I think like people, they're just going to be buying this stuff. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying that these things are not without their use cases. And I have no judgment on anyone who's who's taking them. I think there's a lot of benefits. There's risks, of course, as well. But the point is that the mainstreaming of peptides makes it a lot easier for people to then take the leap into these, you know, human growth hormone and like, you know, testosterone, all these other things that the enhanced games is selling and doing their part to mainstream. So there's this pipeline that begins with,

• 47:22Rich Roll?

  oh, wow, GLP ones. Oh, but GLP one, those are peptides. What are these other peptides? And then basically, it just, you're like already acclimated to these things being not only beneficial, but relatively safe. And so why not? You know what I mean? And then what does that do to the mindset of the amateur athlete with an Olympic dream? And how does that spill into people using these products who are not part of the enhanced games and are trying to use them undetected?

• 47:59Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 47:59Rich Roll?

  I mean, the other thing that happens in In the Olympic context is because detection has gotten more sophisticated. The athletes that are using performance enhancing drugs have to be doing it. In periodic phases or in microdosing doses to try to attempt to go undetected. And so when they're competing at the Olympic level, they're probably on less than them than these guys in the Enhance Games.

• 48:32Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 48:32Rich Roll?

  Because they're worried about getting caught.

• 48:34Adam Skolnick?

  Right, right.

• 48:35Rich Roll?

  And these guys are going full bore.

• 48:37Adam Skolnick?

  That's right.

• 48:37Rich Roll?

  And they're going slower. Yes, they're not the same athletes. They're not like the, the top of the, the pack or whatever. But the nothing burger kind of results that came out of that should tell people like, are these as helpful as we think? They are. Maybe we need to rethink that. The caveat to that, of course, is that. I think they were only like on these protocols for a couple of months.

• 49:03Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah, three months.

• 49:04Rich Roll?

  So, you know, they haven't had enough time perhaps to like really show the effectiveness.

• 49:10Adam Skolnick?

  Except for Christian Colomev. He was on it for over a year.

• 49:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, Magnuson too.

• 49:15Adam Skolnick?

  You're right. Yeah.

• 49:16Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 49:17Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 49:17Rich Roll?

  So, anyway.

• 49:18Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah. Well, I think it's good to talk about. I think it's really interesting. I mean, the peptide thing, I remember someone suggested that I get them. Cause you know, for the same idea that I just told you why I like to exercise, which is like to stay young longer. And I actually even had a phone call with a Beverly Hills doctor who, who has the peptides, the person who was recommended. And I had this phone call with them and I just didn't feel comfortable because I don't know, like, like throwing different names at me, numbers and letters and stuff. And I'm like, what are these peptides and are they going to work? And like, what am I, like, I, I couldn't reconcile my why. It just didn't exist for me. And, um, and so I never did it. But I like, again, like, if you hear this is going to make you feel stronger, you're going to recover better.

• 50:04Adam Skolnick?

  Like, I get why people would want, want it. Like, I had the call. You know, I had the call. Yeah.

• 50:09Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 50:10Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 50:10Rich Roll?

  I'm not supportive of the fact that the Enhance Games is really basically a marketing device to get people to buy these enhancement products. I think that. Is fundamentally irresponsible. It doesn't come with any kind of checks and balances on the dangers and the risks posed by these things. We're just seeing athletes performing at a high level, sometimes getting personal bests, one world record, a lot of subpar performances that aren't that interesting that were sort of contextualized by the commentators as like, oh, they almost got it. When it was like, did they? I don't think they really did. They actually, like, if you know anything about the sport, they were pretty far off the mark.

• 50:54Rich Roll?

  But that being said, you could see this as a very craven cash grab to pitch people on these products who are vulnerable to wanting them because we're all looking at our bellies and wishing we felt better or could magically be stronger. Or we're a young person struggling with their self-esteem who's seeing a shortcut, like a hack, to get strong and look virile. And when you see these people and they're like, this is what Enhanced looks like, and they're performing athletically, they have beautiful bodies, and they all look healthy and happy, and they're smiling, and they're thanking this organization for supporting them.

• 51:39Rich Roll?

  Like, it's hard, if you're an impressionable mind, to not be like, well, I want some of that, you know? And again, I'm sympathetic to the athletes. They're getting paid very, very well for the first time in their entire lives, and they deserve to be paid well. These are some of the best athletes in the world, even if they are past their prime, et cetera. So, in the Brian Johnson of it all, I just think he is the perfect showman because he is channeling this kind of Hunger Games sensibility that is fundamentally like kind of the DNA of this whole enterprise.

• 52:12Adam Skolnick?

  It is crass, though. You know what the crass part of it is, though? Is that ultimately, what is it that they're asking us to do? And what's their marketing? Basically, they're saying you can be optimized, which is another way of saying, think about yourself more. I think that's kind of like the interesting-

• 52:32Rich Roll?

  This is an important point. This self-optimization obsession is permission-

• 52:42Rich Roll?

  For unbridled narcissism.

• 52:44Adam Skolnick?

  Yes, yes. That's what I'm saying. So you put yourself under the microscope more and more. And Brian exhibits this and I'm not, you know, he says he's doing it for the greater good, which is fine. It's all good. But like to be that obsessed about every aspect of yourself is typically, in his case, it's different. It's typically not a recipe for high self-esteem. It's actually the opposite. And so I think that's the biggest unlock for young people watching this or wondering about it. If you think of yourself that much, it only goes one way.

• 53:13Rich Roll?

  But this is the, this is also overlapping what's happening culturally right now, which the increase in self-optimization fascination is an increase in self-obsession.

• 53:24Adam Skolnick?

  That's right.

• 53:24Rich Roll?

  And when we look at the crisis of loneliness and like increased rates of depression, a lot of it has to do with being too self-focused. Like if you get out of yourself and think about being of service or, you know, kind of contributing to the betterment of your community and the world at large. Like these are anecdotes to what ails us. But self-optimization is so self-regarding. It's at cross purposes with that, with that goal.

• 53:56Adam Skolnick?

  We want to optimize, but in, in our quest to be optimized, we are undercutting ourselves. We are, we become, we become our worst critic. It's like amplifying our own critical nature.

• 54:11Rich Roll?

  My takeaway is this. Brian Johnson recently posted his list of the things that he thinks contribute to longevity the most, like after, you know, spending $2 million a year for the past couple of years. Here are his conclusions and essentially everything that he listed was everything that we already knew, like sleep, you know, like don't eat too late. Like none of them had, had to do with expensive exogenous compounds or like these elaborate interventions. They were all like really basic stuff. By extension, we watch the enhanced games. We see a bunch of, for the most part, like lackluster performances.

• 54:56Rich Roll?

  And so what have we learned about what drives optimal human performance?

• 55:03Rich Roll?

  Getting good sleep, training really hard, allowing yourself to recover, like all the things that like the most elite athletes in the world who are winning the gold medals are doing.

• 55:12Adam Skolnick?

  Right.

• 55:14Rich Roll?

  And it's not about these enhancements.

• 55:16Adam Skolnick?

  Right. The enhancements haven't proven anything yet, right?

• 55:18Rich Roll?

  And if you're in search of self-esteem, if your life lacks meaning or purpose or an anchor, maybe consider pursuing your sport or training or fitness or whatever well-being practice you're engaged in, in a non-enhanced state. And do it as an act of self-reverence, as an act of service to yourself, not for narcissistic looks-maxing purposes or because you're trying to take a shortcut, but because you're trying to extract the greatest amount of meaning in grappling with discomfort. And that is the entire enterprise.

• 55:58Adam Skolnick?

  Yeah.

• 55:58Rich Roll?

  It's not about how quickly you can get from A to B or how quickly or how much you can outpace somebody else and distinguish yourself as special to, to extract a certain outcome so that you can be regarded in a certain way. It's about your relationship with yourself. How are you honoring yourself? What is the degree of honesty in that relationship? The more you kind of pursue these things from a place of integrity, the more value and self-esteem building you will experience as a result.

• 56:34Adam Skolnick?

  I love it. Well said.