Communicate with Confidence: The Blueprint for Mastering Every Conversation

Order your copy of The Let Them Theory 👉 https://melrob.co/let-them-theory 👈 The #1 Best Selling Book of 2025 🔥 Discover how much power you truly have. It all begins with two simple words. Let Them. — In today’s episode, you’re getting the blueprint for developing your communication skills. What you learn will boost your influence and make you more confident. You and Mel are both learning from trial lawyer Jefferson Fisher, who is known for his straightforward advice, tips, and tricks on how to communicate better. Jefferson is teaching you proven techniques to express yourself clearly, handle disrespect, and know what to say when someone challenges you, even in high-pressure situations. He will also teach you: Why miscommunication happens (and how to avoid it) How you can use strategic communication to get what you want (without manipulation) And the 3 ways to express your thoughts so that everyone will understand you If you’ve ever felt unsure of how to get your point across or wished you could be more confident when speaking, this episode is packed with tools you can use immediately to transform how you engage with others. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: http://www.melrobbins.com/podcasts/episode-216 Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 0:30 Introduction 0:48 Do this instead of blaming your bad behavior on your stress. 2:45 What you say to others matters in a way you never thought of. 5:14 Ask yourself these questions to figure out what’s important to you. 7:42 What most of us get wrong about arguments. 9:55 The two BEST questions to ask before an argument starts. 13:55 Use this script when you’re about to have a hard conversation. 17:48 Mel’s favorite line that will boost anyone about to hear bad news. 21:24 How do you talk to someone you don’t like? 23:05 The surprising response to disarm a mean comment. 28:10 How to call out disrespect in other people you’re with. 31:00 Say this when you’re trying to get others to do something different. 35:01 How to be more confident when you have to speak in public. 38:11 Say this when you’re walking into a large group of people. 39:53 Instead of asking, How are you?, try asking this instead. 44:15 Conversational goals vs. conversational values. 50:48 The one question to ask yourself so that you live your best life. 54:57 Make this change to communicate better with your family. — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@UCk2U-Oqn7RXf-ydPqfSxG5g Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:08Mel Robbins?

  Oh my gosh, I have been so stressed out. I'm trying to finish my next book and get that manuscript turned in, and I'm going to tell you more about that another time. But as the deadline approaches, I have been constantly snapping at my poor family. Does that happen to you? You know, you get stressed at work or about something else going on in your life and you take it out on the people that you love. I know you don't mean to. I don't mean to. And now I'm constantly saying, "I'm sorry, I was such a jerk. I didn't mean to use that tone of voice. I'm just so stressed." I thought that was a good apology. But then I see this video online of a guy who's sitting in the front seat of his car, and he was talking about bad apologies. And in the video, he's like, "Blaming your bad behavior on your stress,

• 0:49Mel Robbins?

  that is a bad apology." Whoa. He called me out, and he also gave amazing advice. So the next time someone treats you poorly and blames it on stress, this is what Jefferson Fisher says you need to say back.

• 1:03Jefferson Fisher?

  You're going to calmly and quietly respond with, "You don't need to apologize for what your stress has done to you, but you do need to apologize for what it did to me."

• 1:13Mel Robbins?

  Whoa. You don't need to apologize for what your stress has done to you, but you do need to apologize for what your stress did to me. Tell you what, I tracked down the man in the front seat of that car. His name is Jefferson Fisher, and he is here in the studio today to talk all things communication, from bad apologies to speaking with confidence to learning how to stand your ground.

• 1:45Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel. I am so excited that you're here. It's always such an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I also want to take a moment and just acknowledge you for taking time to listen to something that can truly help you live a better life. So I was just telling you that I have been super stressed because I've got some big deadlines with my next book coming out. And look, I'm human. I can try my best, but there are days where I still take my stress out on my family. And when I snap at them, I'm always quick to apologize and I'm always saying, I'm really sorry. I didn't mean to be a jerk. I didn't mean to use that tone of voice. I was just so stressed. Well, according to Jefferson Fisher, who is in our Boston

• 2:29Mel Robbins?

  studios today, blaming your bad behavior on stress is a bad apology. There's a better way for you to communicate. And you and I are going to learn how to be a better communicator from Jefferson Fisher. Let me tell you a little about him. He's a trial lawyer who has millions of followers online who turn to him every single day for his powerful and poignant communication tips. Jefferson says, what you say is who you are. You can learn how to be more articulate, confident, and persuasive. And you know what I love most about Jefferson? Is that the videos that millions of people are watching every day? He's making them in the front seat of his car, in between court cases and meetings with

• 3:10Mel Robbins?

  his clients. His advice is simple, packs a powerful punch. So I tracked him down. And Jefferson has put his cases on hold. He's flown here from Texas to be in our Boston studios to tell you and me exactly what to say and when you should say nothing at all. Jefferson, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 3:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Mel Robbins, thank you for having me.

• 3:32Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my gosh, I'm so thrilled that you are here. Where I would really love to start is, Jefferson, could you tell the person listening how their life might change if they take everything that you're about to share with us today to heart and they apply it in their life?

• 3:50Jefferson Fisher?

  They will have the power to change everything they could want to about their life, their relationships, and where they want to go. Because for the vast majority of people, and especially any person who listens right now, what you say is who you are to people.

• 4:15Jefferson Fisher?

  That's the only time they will experience who you are. You can't be a kind person if you don't say kind things. When you hear somebody say, "Oh, that person was nice." Well, what you mean is they said nice things to me. Same thing if somebody's rude. You hear something you don't like. So it's the power to communicate. And the tips that I give are short, concise of how they can be better and improve the next conversation that they have.

• 4:44Mel Robbins?

  I freaking love it. I've never heard anybody describe the power of your words and the way in which you communicate, that the things that you say is who you are.

• 4:55Jefferson Fisher?

  It's your entire, it's the only way they'll experience you. Like, they might see that kind deed. The vast majority of the time, they're going to only hear what you say. So you find that the power to communicate is that you compress your entire personality into just what they hear you say.

• 5:16Mel Robbins?

  Huh. Now, I think everybody who is either shy or a little insecure or feels maybe like they're an introvert is now like, "Oh, gosh, because I keep my mouth shut." Can anybody learn to be a better communicator?

• 5:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Anybody can. It doesn't matter if you say two words, 20 words. Often, you can say a lot with less than you can with more words. So it's not about, "Oh, I'm an introvert. I'm too shy. I can never." That's not the point. More words is not better communication.

• 5:52Mel Robbins?

  Ooh, I love that, too. I'm gonna learn a lot from you because I tend to be somebody who just vomits it all out and I feel like I could learn how to say less.

• 6:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, that's not a bad thing. But sometimes it's not, it's not bad to say more either.

• 6:06Mel Robbins?

  All right. We'll see what you think about my communication style. I'm curious because I love following you online. Millions of people have discovered you and love watching you as you sit in the front seat of your car. You're squeezing this advice in in between cases that you're doing in court, in between meetings with clients. How did you get started doing this? And why do you think millions of people are following you and loving your advice?

• 6:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you. I left a big defense firm, that big law, and I was just, I wasn't happy anymore. I was a partner there and I went from having a team to just being by myself with my laptop and coffee shops. And I started thinking, well, I need to get on social media. And then that quickly turned into, I feel like I'm selling myself. You see all these billboards with personal injury attorneys. I thought, that's not who I want to be. What can I do to just be a light in the world? What's my legacy going to be? And I, I guide my principles on, is this something my kids would be proud of? So that really hits home for me of what kind of legacy can I leave even if I'm not here?

• 7:13Jefferson Fisher?

  And so I decided I was going to teach people on something that I feel I know better than anybody in my world, and that's how to communicate the lessons that I've learned. So I got my phone in my car and made my first How to Argue Like a Lawyer video.

• 7:29Mel Robbins?

  Wow. And the rest is history?

• 7:31Jefferson Fisher?

  And the rest is history. So it's been almost two years.

• 7:34Mel Robbins?

  And millions and millions of followers online?

• 7:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 7:37Mel Robbins?

  And why do you think people follow you?

• 7:39Jefferson Fisher?

  The videos are short.

• 7:40Mel Robbins?

  Uh huh.

• 7:41Jefferson Fisher?

  They're very succinct.

• 7:43Mel Robbins?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:43Jefferson Fisher?

  And they give them that lightbulb moment of, oh, I could do that. What I talk about is very practical. What I talk about is not hypothetical. It's not based on some study. It is in the trenches. It's real conflict that we deal with from opposing attorneys to having to argue before judges. You have your own clients that may or may not agree with you. So it's communicating at all different levels. That's very practical and relatable and giving it to them in a way that they're like, hey, this guy's, he's an attorney, but yet he's in his car and he's talking to me like I'm a real human. It's, it's not that hard.

• 8:20Mel Robbins?

  Well, what I love about what you're saying, and this is true, is that most of us, I believe, especially when we are either uncomfortable or we have to have a difficult conversation, we focus on This idea that you have to win.

• 8:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:37Mel Robbins?

  And a lot of people see lawyers and they think, oh, it's all about arguing and winning. And you forget the fact that no, you actually have to navigate judges and juries and court officers and clerks and other attorneys that you're going to see. And the ability to have people listen is just as important. What do you think most of us get wrong about how we communicate?

• 9:02Jefferson Fisher?

  That arguments are something to win, not something to unravel. I teach that arguments are knots in the conversation. And what gets worse is when you pull your way and I pull my way versus looking at it and saying, help me with the knot. How can we unravel this? How can we smooth it out? Never win an argument. If somebody's telling you or teaching you or you read some book on how to win every argument, they're just selling you something.

• 9:30Mel Robbins?

  Okay, then let me give you an example. You ready?

• 9:31Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm ready.

• 9:32Mel Robbins?

  Last night, we go out to dinner. It is my mother-in-law's 87th birthday.

• 9:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Happy birthday.

• 9:36Mel Robbins?

  Yes, happy birthday to Judy. And so we're out with the family and I, of course, have a conversation that happened at the table. I said something that I immediately wanted to take back. My husband and I are now leaving. We've all been there, right? You have stuck foot in mouth. Your partner is now angry with you. We get into the car. I was not driving. Somebody else was driving. So we hop into the Uber and Chris turns to me and is like, why did you have to say that?

• 10:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Mel Robbins?

  And so can you explain in this situation that I think we can all relate to where now you are about to have an argument with somebody and you are describing that arguments are like a knot? So what do I do in this situation where I'm about to go into full-on defend me mode? How do I get out of this mess?

• 10:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, well, sometimes it just takes a big shovel. But anytime there's miscommunication, it is because what is sent is not what is received. So what you thought you said is not what they heard.

• 10:43Mel Robbins?

  Hmm.

• 10:43Jefferson Fisher?

  And often you're just on different frequencies. If I were to turn my radio to 90s country,

• 10:50Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 10:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Which I love, and you turned it on, I don't know, let's say 2000s R&B.

• 10:55Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 10:56Jefferson Fisher?

  You'd be going, "This sounds great." I'm like, "No, this sounds great." And we're still rocking to our own sounds, and we're not on the same channel. And so, when you're in that backseat, and you're talking with Chris, and he's going, "Why'd you say that?" The question is, "What did you hear?"

• 11:14Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 11:15Jefferson Fisher?

  And so, it's that understanding of, "What did you hear when I said that?" Because I know what I meant. "What did you hear?" And so, it's this pushing of, when it's only going how you say it in your head, nobody else is hearing that.

• 11:31Mel Robbins?

  What did you hear?

• 11:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 11:33Mel Robbins?

  That's amazing. Because the second he said, "Why did you say that?" I felt attacked.

• 11:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Of course.

• 11:42Mel Robbins?

  And as I sit here in the, like, bright daylight, right, and I've got distance from it, I don't actually think I put my foot in my mouth. I know what my intention was.

• 11:52Jefferson Fisher?

  You know.

• 11:53Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 11:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 11:54Mel Robbins?

  And so, the next time you're in an argument with somebody, and that knot starts to build, and you can feel yourself yanking on it, because you go into a mode of defending yourself. If somebody says to you, "Why did you say that?" Or they attack you on something, your response is, "What did you hear?"

• 12:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 12:15Mel Robbins?

  Wow.

• 12:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, and to your defense, to ask somebody, "Why you said that?" That "why" word puts everybody on the defense, because it sounds like you're attacking, you're undermining their credibility.

• 12:27Mel Robbins?

  Okay, so let's reverse the rules here. Let's say, my husband Chris says something really stupid, or like, you know, that I'm like, "Why would he say something like that?" If I'm now the one... And in the car with him.

• 12:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:39Mel Robbins?

  And he has said something at a party or like around family that I just wanted to reach out and choke him. Obviously, I wouldn't. But what would you say instead of why would you say that?

• 12:51Jefferson Fisher?

  I would use the word what instead of starting with why.

• 12:54Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 12:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Which puts you on the defensive because when you say why, the first thing you want to say is because I said so. That's why.

• 13:00Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 13:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Uh, that autonomy that you feel. But instead, it's the, the what? What was going through your head when that happened? Or what made you say this? It's that curiosity of, I'm just curious of, of how you got there. Instead of the pushing the why, why'd you do this? Why'd you do it that way?

• 13:19Mel Robbins?

  I love that. Because you're right. One is judgment.

• 13:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Hmm.

• 13:22Mel Robbins?

  And the other is curiosity.

• 13:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 13:24Mel Robbins?

  One is poking and the other is leaning in.

• 13:27Jefferson Fisher?

  It's the whole student versus teacher mentality. Instead of feeling like you're having to push, you're having something to, to learn about it.

• 13:34Mel Robbins?

  No wonder so many people follow you. What, what do you, what is the secret to getting better to talking to people?

• 13:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Not really a secret as much it is a process of wanting to express yourself in a way of saying what you mean more. Because often you want to say the thing, but you're hesitant about it. You're not sure exactly how you want to, to put it across. So you feel like you need to kind of dance around it.

• 14:00Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 14:01Jefferson Fisher?

  And often you just need to jump right in.

• 14:04Mel Robbins?

  That sounds scary for a lot of people.

• 14:05Jefferson Fisher?

  It is scary, but I mean, you, you cold plunge, uh, you know, so it's, it's worse when you go inch by inch.

• 14:12Mel Robbins?

  So can you give us an example, especially as you're listening to Jefferson? If you have a conversation or there's something that you wish you could communicate more effectively, how do you do it?

• 14:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Let's put it in terms of a difficult conversation for them. So whoever's listening, I want you to imagine you are about to walk into somebody's office and there's going to be that hard conversation in the room. And let's just say it's a topic of something that is, it's bad news. Put your mind wherever it is. You walk in and somebody goes, "So, uh, so how are you? How are you lately? You been good? Pickleball games alright? Well, that's, that's good. Well, um, your family's good? Well, listen, uh, hey, uh, I, I have something that we've been talking about and listen, I, I know it's not that big of a deal and I, I want you to understand.

• 15:04Mel Robbins?

  You're making me panic as I'm listening to you, Jefferson.

• 15:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly. Because of that fear of the unknown, no? Versus, let's say, the different scenario.

• 15:11Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 15:12Jefferson Fisher?

  You come in, say, "Thank you for meeting with me." "Well, I have bad news." You deliver that bad news. Versus, "This isn't gonna be a fun conversation." You say that. "This isn't gonna be fun for us to talk about. This isn't my favorite conversation I have." You prepare them for it. Often, you're afraid to disappoint people.

• 15:33Mel Robbins?

  Uh huh.

• 15:34Jefferson Fisher?

  And what that really is, is you don't believe that they have enough emotional resiliency to handle it. So you need to, to baby them, to tiptoe into the water instead of dipping right in. People will admire you more. They will see you as somebody with more respect and more confidence every time when you say what you wanna say fully.

• 15:53Mel Robbins?

  Wow. Do you do that with your kids, too?

• 15:57Jefferson Fisher?

  As much as I can, but of course, I'm in a very loving way.

• 16:01Mel Robbins?

  Gotcha.

• 16:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 16:03Mel Robbins?

  I mean, it makes sense because I think a lot of the advices, and I will admit, I think I've even given this advice in the past, is like, "Okay, well, make a sandwich. Gotta say something positive and then you stick in the meat, which is the negative part." And people see it coming.

• 16:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I don't like the sandwich.

• 16:16Mel Robbins?

  Okay, you just go right for the meat.

• 16:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, you can put in some bread, but I feel like it's disingenuous to make them have to go, "Wha- what do you mean? What are you saying? What are you? You kinda have to just sit there and wait and it's painful rather than going right into it. There's still a place to be kind. There's still a place to be very direct. And, and how you talk to your kids depends on your kid's age. I mean, how I speak to my four and six-year-old is different to how my father spoke to me when I was 16, when I would come to him and complain and he, and he'd go, "You don't have to like it. You just need to understand it."

• 16:52Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 16:53Jefferson Fisher?

  And it's that whole different mentality of, "I can deliver all the truth and still be kind."

• 17:00Mel Robbins?

  I wanna pull that thread for a minute because one of the reasons why we do not communicate directly with people is because we believe that if somebody can't handle the truth, or if they're gonna have an emotional reaction, or if they're gonna feel like upset or disappointed in themselves, that somehow it's kinder to avoid it, or soft pedal it, or not be as direct. And what you teach in a very effective way is that it's actually one of the cruelest

• 17:40Mel Robbins?

  things you can do to somebody, to lead them on, to not tell them the truth, to lie to their face and treat them one way, but then go behind closed doors and actually complain about what they're doing and not tell them.

• 17:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Wholeheartedly.

• 17:54Mel Robbins?

  And that somewhere along the line, we have confused kindness with actually lying to people. And that's actually cruel.

• 18:05Jefferson Fisher?

  In one of the worst ways, especially for people that you love. Whenever you skirt around the truth, whenever you come at a conversation in a very indirect way, you are saying to them, "I don't believe you're emotionally strong enough to handle this," versus me saying, "Mel, I'm telling you this because I know you can handle it."

• 18:26Mel Robbins?

  Hmm.

• 18:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Now you strengthen them. And often what you say, you're giving them the armor to handle it. You're giving them the backpack for the trip that they're about to be on.

• 18:37Mel Robbins?

  Ooh, I love that. And you know what else I loved is I loved that thing you added there. So you've, I wanna make sure that as you're listening, you are sticking these takeaways into that backpack that Jefferson just alluded to. And so you said, first of all, that you just go right in, like just jump right into the deep end of the pool, don't be tap dancing around the topic, and delay getting to it. This is not gonna be an easy conversation. But then you just added this thing that I loved, which is, "But I'm telling you this." Because I know you can handle it and I want you to hear the truth. Or I want you to know how I feel about this. Or I, you don't have to like it, but you need to know this.

• 19:20Mel Robbins?

  And you just lifted me up a little bit when you said, I'm telling you this because I think you can handle it. And that makes me go, yeah, I think I can too. So lay it on me, even though it's gonna suck.

• 19:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, exactly. You have to, in many ways, what you say to them is going to give them the value that you want them to hold. So I'm telling you this because I know you believe in transparency. I'm coming to you with this, and I know it's not fun to talk about. You're somebody who can handle it. I know you have big shoulders. You, you tell them the quality that you want them to have and they, and they will rise up to it. They'll stand up straight into it.

• 19:56Mel Robbins?

  Oh, I love that. You tell someone the qualities that you want them to have and people rise up into it.

• 20:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Every time. When you say something to them, for example, let's say, Mel, I know that you're somebody that takes value in people's words or that you value patience. They go, oh, yeah. And in their mind, they're thinking, yeah, oh, yeah, I'm patient. Yeah. Hey, Greg, I'm telling you this because I know you, you have an open mind. All of a sudden Greg's like, I do have an open mind. Yes, I do. And so it is, you, you tweak the, you can do that and same thing when you walk into a room. So if you don't feel comfortable saying it directly about the person, you can say what this room is.

• 20:36Mel Robbins?

  What do you mean? What does that mean?

• 20:37Jefferson Fisher?

  You walk in and say, I want to make sure that this room is one that I can be entirely truthful in.

• 20:43Mel Robbins?

  So where would you use that? Like at work?

• 20:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, let's say you're in somebody's office.

• 20:47Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 20:47Jefferson Fisher?

  It doesn't have to be like the room of truth. I'm just saying like wherever you are.

• 20:51Mel Robbins?

  You say it to yourself or you say that?

• 20:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Say that out loud. I want to make sure that this is a place of honesty. I want to make sure that I'm speaking in a place that's free to say what I need to say. Are we good with that? And they go, yeah.

• 21:03Mel Robbins?

  I love this because, you know, in, then lawyers speak, you're basically leading a witness.

• 21:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:10Mel Robbins?

  But it works like a charm and I've never really thought about that as a strategy to tell people how I want you to react to something.

• 21:18Jefferson Fisher?

  And you add that on to what I call a, a frame in the, in the conversation. So you, you tell somebody. You go a step further, and that is you tell them how you want the conversation to end.

• 21:29Mel Robbins?

  Okay, so tell me this.

• 21:31Jefferson Fisher?

  So, let's say you made a comment at dinner.

• 21:35Mel Robbins?

  Yes, last night. Okay, yes.

• 21:38Jefferson Fisher?

  So, and it's this concept of you tell them what you want to talk about. You tell them how you want to feel after you end the conversation, and you get their agreement to it. You'd step into it and say, "I'd like to talk to you about a comment you made last night at dinner, and I want to walk away from that conversation knowing that this isn't a topic you're going to bring up again in front of other people." Does that sound good?

• 22:01Mel Robbins?

  That sounds like I'm in trouble, Justin Jefferson. So now I'm literally going, "I'm not going to bring it up ever again."

• 22:06Jefferson Fisher?

  But you get what I mean. Or, let's say, a comment that you made at a meeting last week, and I want to make sure that you and I are on the same wavelength the next meeting that we have. Does that work? And they go, "That works." And now you have a frame, and now you know exactly what the conversation is about and what it's not about. Because if you talk about everything, then you really talk about nothing. You've had those meetings where, "All right, everybody, we've got a lot to do today. We have a lot to talk about." And you leave those meetings feeling like you've...

• 22:35Mel Robbins?

  Like every meeting.

• 22:36Jefferson Fisher?

  You didn't talk about anything.

• 22:37Mel Robbins?

  Yes, that's every meeting that I lead. So now I'm going to use your technique. Question for you: How do you talk to somebody that you don't like?

• 22:48Mel Robbins?

  Nobody wants to feel fake, but what do you do?

• 22:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, if you're in a position where you have to talk to somebody you don't like,

• 22:58Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 22:59Jefferson Fisher?

  that does not give you any reason to be less likable. It's that mentality of, you know, "Don't argue with a fool, because onlookers won't know the difference." Forgot who said that quote, but it's that idea of if you're talking to somebody you don't like, well, you're going to talk to them as if you do.

• 23:18Mel Robbins?

  How do you do that?

• 23:19Jefferson Fisher?

  You just be who you are. Understand that you're not trying to convince the other person to like you, or convince yourself to like the other person. You're convincing the people around you. Because they're watching you. They're watching how you talk to somebody. They're watching how you treat other people. And if you need to, just go neutral. Just stick with basic facts. Instead of trying to get cute and make these offhand comments and roll your eyes and cross your arms. Instead, just be very neutral in the conversation. They ask you what time it is. Instead of going, well, you know, if you were here. So you don't got to watch? Okay. Instead of doing that, you just tell them the time. Be very quick with it. Get in, get out. You don't need to have more conversation than you need to. But you never want to give somebody a reason,

• 24:03Jefferson Fisher?

  especially somebody who's not in the conversation, not to like you.

• 24:06Mel Robbins?

  How do you handle somebody that kind of belittles you? They're like picking on your weight or they're constantly like, are you still single? Like, you know, like, you know, like, you know how people, like especially people that you're close with, have a way of belittling you?

• 24:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 24:23Mel Robbins?

  What do you do in those situations?

• 24:25Jefferson Fisher?

  When somebody is belittling you or giving you an insulting, hurtful comment, you make them say it again. Because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you. And instead, you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask them to repeat what they said, you're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they're expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that that response time from you. Instead, you're delaying that gratification for them. Then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it, to say, I need you to say that again.

• 25:03Mel Robbins?

  We need to role play this.

• 25:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Sure.

• 25:05Mel Robbins?

  I'm trying to think of a scenario.

• 25:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Like you just said right there, you're still single.

• 25:11Mel Robbins?

  I need you to repeat that.

• 25:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. You so exactly. I'm not going to want to say that again. Because now that spotlight is on me. And then also what you lead up with that is you ask questions of intent. For example, did you say that to hurt me? And now it's this mirror that they feel like, why did I say that? Oh, okay. And then they start to backtrack. Then you don't have to say anything. So if somebody says to you, oh, so you're still single? I need you to say that again. Most likely, they're not going to say that again. But if they do, then you can even repeat what they said. I'm still single. That's what you asked me?

• 25:55Jefferson Fisher?

  And all of a sudden, they realize this isn't fun. They're not going to ask that kind of thing again. Or you just ask that question of, did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? Oh, no, no, no, no, I didn't say that. What I meant was, and all of a sudden, they're backing away because they know you're going to stand your ground.

• 26:11Mel Robbins?

  Wow. This is like very eye opening because I can see both situations where I need to use it. And I can see situations where I probably say things, and I'm thinking particularly to my adult kids, that probably feels belittling. I can think about like our daughter out in Los Angeles. And every time I see her, she's wearing a piece of clothing that I don't recognize. And so I think to myself, and oftentimes I will say, is that new? And I'm thinking in my mind, where do you get the money for this? You know, like that kind of thing? And then she's like, yeah, I thrifted it. And there's this little tiff thing.

• 26:56Mel Robbins?

  But if she were to say to me.

• 26:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, if she were to ask you.

• 26:59Mel Robbins?

  Are you trying to embarrass me?

• 27:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, exactly. Are you trying to insinuate something? Are you trying to say something that you're not wanting to tell me?

• 27:07Mel Robbins?

  Because you're right. The question is what I'm saying on the surface. But what I'm actually accusing her of is not being responsible with her money.

• 27:17Jefferson Fisher?

  It's that mirror.

• 27:18Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 27:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 27:19Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 27:19Jefferson Fisher?

  And so it takes away the power of their insult.

• 27:22Mel Robbins?

  Wow.

• 27:23Jefferson Fisher?

  When you can take all the fun out of it. You take all the oxygen out of their room. And they realize that they're not going to be able to control you with that reaction that they were hoping to get from you.

• 27:34Mel Robbins?

  How do you respond to disrespect?

• 27:36Jefferson Fisher?

  A lot of silence. So often, if you just wait 10 seconds. That you're gonna add distance between what they said and how you're going to respond. Because what they're wanting when somebody's disrespectful is, same way with belittling. They're saying this to get something out of you. Because in that moment, they're feeling something, whether it's a fear, an insecurity, whatever it is. You're not going to deliver on that same plane that they are. You're not gonna be on that same level. So if somebody says something disrespectful, you give enough silence to make sure that it's a little awkward. And then you're going to say something to the effect of, "That's below my standard for a response."

• 28:18Jefferson Fisher?

  And then all of a sudden, they feel like the dynamic has been flipped. Something as simple as that. All of a sudden, you're now making it clear that what you just said was beneath me. And I don't respond to things that are beneath me in that way. And so now you're taking control of it. Now you're leaning into it. What they thought was meant as a disrespect, they're now understanding that they're in the wrong place.

• 28:43Mel Robbins?

  I was with somebody yesterday who had just visited their mother. And I said to her, you know, like, "How did it go?" And she said, "Well, it was fine, but it's my mother." And the thing that drives me crazy is she is extremely disrespectful to anybody that is waiting on us at a restaurant. Like so much so that the owner came over and said something to her. Is there a way to respond when someone else is throwing a fit? Or is being disrespectful? Is there something that you can say to somebody in that situation?

• 29:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Depends how your relationship is with that person. I would advise that whoever they're disrespecting, you don't join in it. And you make it clear that that is not your behavior. So you're gonna be the person that is kind to this person. So I've had it before. My grandfather came with me to Walmart. It was a terrible time. He was, he was in a bad mood and he was crotchety to everybody we talked to. But I was the one that was, "Thank you so much for helping us. I appreciate it. Thank you so much." "It'd be overly... Hey, I understand. Thank you." And then you have that conversation. I had to have that conversation with my grandfather.

• 30:01Mel Robbins?

  How did you do that?

• 30:02Jefferson Fisher?

  I had to put a boundary, a very firm boundary of, "If this is the way you're gonna talk to people, I can't come with you." If you don't change the tone in which you're talking to people, Papa, I can't, I can't come. And so it very was, uh, what, what, what am I saying? You're not being respectful to people. Yes, I am. I would not be telling you this if you had been respectful to people. It's the people you love, and often you have to be their biggest mirror of protecting them also for how other people see them. And so I love my grandfather. I want other people to love him. And that means I also have to make sure that I need to prepare him in a loving way of being very direct of this is how you're talking to people.

• 30:46Mel Robbins?

  Has he changed?

• 30:47Jefferson Fisher?

  He has. He also just don't go to Walmart, so.

• 30:53Mel Robbins?

  Jefferson, the next question I want to ask you is how you can communicate in a way that everybody can understand you. But I gotta take a quick break. So why don't you think about that while the person listening listens to a word from our sponsors? Don't you dare go anywhere. We have so many more incredible takeaways from the amazing Jefferson Fisher. Stay with us.

• 31:22Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. You and I are here with the amazing Jefferson Fisher. I love the specific takeaways that he's teaching us about how you can become a better communicator. So Jefferson, what are two ways that you can express your thoughts and feelings so that everyone can understand you better?

• 31:40Jefferson Fisher?

  It's simple and it's silly. It's so simple. It's just saying, I feel instead of I think it is I feel. If that is a feeling that you actually have, in other words, separating the person from the problem. For example, let's say you need to criticize a proposal that somebody had or a presentation.

• 32:00Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 32:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Instead of using the word you with it, your presentation, that's going to get them defensive. Instead, make it a third person, the proposal, the presentation. The presentation could benefit from a few changes instead of your proposal wasn't that great. So you find ways of objectifying the, you're separating the person from the problem itself. So that's a way of expressing how you feel about a certain thing.

• 32:25Mel Robbins?

  Can I stop you right there?

• 32:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Of course.

• 32:26Mel Robbins?

  Cause I immediately see an application as a parent or as a roommate.

• 32:32Mel Robbins?

  Where, as a parent personally, I will throw myself under the bus here. I have never done that. Your room is a mess. Your stuff is everywhere. It's accusation, accusation, accusation. So how would you use this?

• 32:48Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 32:49Mel Robbins?

  Technique to be more effective at communicating when you're talking to kids or you're talking to somebody that you live with and you want to use this strategy of removing the kind of you're wrong.

• 33:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 33:04Mel Robbins?

  From the thing that you want them to do.

• 33:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Can I give the listeners a thought?

• 33:08Mel Robbins?

  Absolutely. You can do whatever you want.

• 33:09Jefferson Fisher?

  So let's say, well, you and I are at a table right now, Mel. And let's say you and I are disagreeing about something.

• 33:16Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 33:16Jefferson Fisher?

  And in the middle of the room, let's just put this as the problem.

• 33:19Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 33:19Jefferson Fisher?

  This is the problem. This is how I see the problem.

• 33:22Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 33:22Jefferson Fisher?

  You're going to argue, this is how you see the problem.

• 33:24Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 33:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Great. Now, the issue between us is not each other. It's the problem. But in the real conversation, it's hard to get out of that. Instead, it's me pulling my chair and saying, Mel, come over here. Come sit next to me. Let's talk about this problem. What are we going to do about this? So instead of your room's not clean. I see the room is still isn't clean. What should we do about it? It's that idea of trying to get them to, let's look at the problem together. How do you find ways to? That's what I mean by separating the person from the problem. Instead of getting on to you and saying, now, you're lazy. You don't understand. You're so stupid. You're such an idiot. Instead of that, the problem is the problem on the table. Come sit next to me and let's talk about the problem.

• 34:10Jefferson Fisher?

  And now, instead of opponents, we're teammates.

• 34:14Mel Robbins?

  Your kids are screwed. I mean, I, you are, I had this whole visual as you were saying this of me like frustrated, yelling or stressed or exacerbated about like the pile of laundry or the state of the room or whatever it is. And then making a fuss about the problem. Which only puts somebody on the defensive.

• 34:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Every time.

• 34:39Mel Robbins?

  Versus, like, imagine if you're standing in front of the kitchen sink with your family or you're standing in front of the living room with your roommate, right? And you're like, this room's pretty messy.

• 34:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:52Mel Robbins?

  What should we do about it?

• 34:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 34:54Mel Robbins?

  Completely different approach.

• 34:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Without a doubt, and it's this idea of having kind of a need check of saying, "Let's take a time out. I want to make sure that I have time with y'all to do X activities. We also have a need to do the dishes. I need help with that." Or, "I have a need for your room to be clean. I have a need for this house to be clean." What's your need? How can we help with that? So, when you use the word "help," people love to be helpful.

• 35:25Mel Robbins?

  Uh huh.

• 35:26Jefferson Fisher?

  This ability to, instead of just attacking them, that you don't understand, you don't get it, you're lazy, or you don't care. Those are all words that just cut for no reason. When your problem is not them, the problem is the issue.

• 35:41Mel Robbins?

  Wow. You could use this with anything.

• 35:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Anything.

• 35:44Mel Robbins?

  You could use this if, if somebody's playing too much video games. You could use this if somebody's not taking care of themselves. The problem isn't the person. It's the issue that is bothering you and this need that you have to see somebody either doing better, or to see the house picked up, or to see, like, people helping out. That's frickin' genius. I'm a little concerned because, given that I'm a talker, it's easy for me to take this advice and just go blah blah. Like, I can apply it immediately because I'm not uncomfortable talking to other people. And I haven't had social anxiety since law school.

• 36:27Mel Robbins?

  But there are a ton of people that listen who do. And I can think of a particular friend of mine who is so amazing. And the second she's around other people, she just kind of clams up. Do you have any specific strategies or advice for somebody who would like to be better?

• 36:52Mel Robbins?

  About just speaking and feeling more confident about it, or feeling like I can display authority a certain way. If there are certain phrases or strategies, like, how do you coach people in becoming more comfortable in that regard?

• 37:11Jefferson Fisher?

  I coach people the same way I coach my legal clients.

• 37:14Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 37:14Jefferson Fisher?

  And I walk them through a series of steps. Because you know as well as I do, when we send somebody out to be cross-examined, we're giving them up to the wolves.

• 37:24Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 37:25Jefferson Fisher?

  In many ways. I mean, their credibility, you have somebody who wants to hurt their credibility. There's somebody who wants to prove them wrong, call them a liar. So how do you equip them with the armor to take that on? Some of the basics of what I talk about is, I want them to feel that they can say things very succinctly. Meaning, often people who are nervous to talk, have that social anxiety. They say too much, then they felt like they didn't say anything at all afterwards. And that just means they're watering down what they're saying.

• 37:58Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 37:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Let's put this in a scenario. Okay, so, sorry to pause the email. But I have this, well, I mean, it's not really this thing, but it's, okay, so essentially, what I really want to say is, this isn't really something I'm too, too comfortable with, you know? But I mean, that is what you see the 99% of.

• 38:18Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 38:19Jefferson Fisher?

  The 1% says, "Take a breath, lest their breath be the first word that they say." And says, "This is not something I'm comfortable with." Period. You see how different it is? The same thing, same, I mean, it's the same objective. One is watered down, the other is served to you straight. And so, you find ways to eliminate the water from your drink, so to speak. You gotta get rid of all the ice cubes, the over-apologizing, the putting your words down before you even get them out. That's where you experience real growth and real change in your sentences.

• 38:58Mel Robbins?

  I want to make sure. That as you were listening to Jefferson, you actually heard that. Because the single most important thing that you said was taking a breath is the first word.

• 39:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 39:12Mel Robbins?

  And so if you're somebody that just opens your mouth and all kinds of stuff starts coming out, and then you start to, of course, feel more anxious because you've lost control of what you're saying, and then that just makes you keep going, and then you get flustered, and then your face turns red, and then now you're like, I'm never talking again, and I didn't even say what I meant to say.

• 39:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Mel Robbins?

  Your breath is the first word. And then you're coaching us to really think about what do you actually want to say? And so for somebody that has a hard time in a social setting, and you are walking into a party, you don't know a lot of people, you're walking into a networking meeting, you don't know a lot of people, and you want to prepare yourself to be able to say something. Is there an opening line or a way that you recommend that people start to just practice the art of just talking to other people? Because a lot of people find it very challenging to just strike up a conversation with someone.

• 40:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, that is difficult. I would say that just focus on one person.

• 40:23Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 40:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Even though it's a room of plenty, you can be in a room and feel like you talk to everybody, but you just scratch the surface. Trade that for a real conversation with just one person. So there's plenty of times where you've left a meeting, or you left an event, and you go, man, I really like this person who I got to spend equality six minutes with.

• 40:45Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 40:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Versus just a bunch of pleasantries of, oh, hey, how you doing? How's your kids? We should get together, and you never get together.

• 40:51Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 40:52Jefferson Fisher?

  So I would tell them, one, quantity does not equal quality when it comes to networking or any big rooms like that. It's not how it should work. Just focus on one person. Two, if you want to break the ice about something, you can always start with something of just how they're doing in their life, what they're excited about, what they're looking forward to.

• 41:15Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 41:15Jefferson Fisher?

  When you ask the just, how are you? People talk about the past. They rarely talk about the future. The future is a lot more exciting, because then you can go about something. People typically tend to speak.

• 41:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Ill of what's been going on. They're bad on it. They're more negative on it. They're typically more positive about the future.

• 41:35Mel Robbins?

  Oh, that's a great tip. So you take a breath and then you ask somebody, so what are you excited about? Or why are you here? What would you say if you were walking into a networking meeting?

• 41:45Jefferson Fisher?

  I would say, what are you most excited about today? Something as simple as that.

• 41:49Mel Robbins?

  Wow. Well, I'm most excited about talking to you, Jefferson.

• 41:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, same here.

• 41:54Mel Robbins?

  I love that tip. And I know as you're listening, you are loving everything that Jefferson is sharing with you as well. And speaking of sharing, while you listen to a short word from our sponsors, take a minute and just share this episode with somebody who can use all of these amazing strategies that Jefferson is teaching us today. And don't you dare go anywhere because Jefferson and I, we will be waiting for you after a short break.

• 42:27Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins, and I am loving the time that you and I are spending together with Jefferson Fisher. Jefferson, one of my favorite videos of yours is where you give advice about answering the question, how are you?

• 42:40Jefferson Fisher?

  I mean, you hear it every day. It's the first thing we tend to ask anybody. You can handle that question a lot better if instead of answering that question, talking about the past. In other words, typically people like to say, I'm good. I'm fine. It's been okay today. Or the another day in paradise kind of, you're hearing that I'm living the dream. It's to talk about what you're excited about. Instead of being backward looking, look forward. You tell them what you're looking forward to. I'm looking forward to seeing my kids today. I'm excited about the game on Friday. If you talk about the future, it's always a lot more exciting. And also, don't be afraid to be truthful.

• 43:17Jefferson Fisher?

  So if somebody's asking you how you are, instead of just saying, oh, I'm actually doing really bad, it's okay to say, I'm just feeling a little overcast today. You put it in terms of the weather.

• 43:28Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 43:29Jefferson Fisher?

  It's, it's, uh, it's a lot easier for people that you don't have to worry about the little details. You don't have to worry about the little complexities of, do I need to explain to them everything that's happening that day? Just put it in terms of the weather. That's kind of an overcast day for me. It's a sunny day. Bad thunderstorms for me today. Find the different ways to talk about the weather and instantly they know how you're doing.

• 43:48Mel Robbins?

  That's really cool. I'm realizing that I'm a massive oversharer. So when somebody asks me, how are you? I go into a diatribe of information that they don't need.

• 43:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, it's not that they don't need. It's just oversharing can be a hindrance in the long term. It often stems from what I've seen with clients is this need to feel believed. In other words, you feel like they're not buying all what you're saying. So you need to say more so that they know how knowledgeable you are. You know how much you know. But the weird thing about that is typically the more you say something, the less it appears you know about it. So the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. And so you have to be careful about oversharing. And what I like to tell my clients

• 44:39Jefferson Fisher?

  is instead of being a waterfall, be a well, you know, be the place that they can draw information from rather than feeling like you have to overwhelm them and put them on the life raft.

• 44:52Mel Robbins?

  Jefferson, you just changed my life.

• 44:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, good.

• 44:55Mel Robbins?

  Cause I am an avalanche and a waterfall.

• 44:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 44:59Mel Robbins?

  And I love this idea that you could be a well and keep it closer to the chest and people can dip in and get the information.

• 45:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 45:10Mel Robbins?

  That you want to give them. A bucket full instead of just barfing all the information out.

• 45:16Jefferson Fisher?

  That's another way to put it.

• 45:18Mel Robbins?

  Can you give us advice on how you stand up for yourself?

• 45:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Hmm. So one is like we talked about, let your breath be the first word that you say, because what that does is tell people that you heard them and that you're acknowledging. There's a difference between if you just ask me a question, you say, hey, how are you doing, Jefferson? I go, good, good, real good, real good. I didn't really listen versus if you asked me that question again, how are you doing Jefferson? And I said, I'm good. I'm real good. Now it feels like you've stepped into it. Often when it comes to standing your ground, it is just slowing down your words. I'm feeling like you have to rush anything. Nobody can make you say anything that you don't want to say.

• 46:02Jefferson Fisher?

  If you just find ways to give it a beat and figure it out, you're going to be a whole lot better off. Too often, people wait till they're talking to figure out what they want to say.

• 46:11Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my God, that's me.

• 46:12Jefferson Fisher?

  And so they take off. It's like going to the airport and just flying and getting on the plane. And you go, where are you landing? I have no idea. I'm just, I just got on the plane. I don't know. You get in the car and they're like, where are you going? Who knows? I'm just going. I say all that to say, like, they finally kind of, they're just going in circles on their plane and they're waiting. You gotta help people land the runway often.

• 46:35Mel Robbins?

  I feel like that is me at work and in life. That I'm one of these people that needs to talk it out. And where I start is never where I land. And I'm realizing as I'm listening to you, that there's a lot of pre-work that I could do before I walk into a meeting or before I just start blabbing with my family.

• 46:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 46:56Mel Robbins?

  And it would be way more effective and helpful for people if I actually knew where I was going before I opened my mouth.

• 47:04Jefferson Fisher?

  It always helps to have a goal in the conversation. It helps to have conversational values. It helps to have conversational goals.

• 47:10Mel Robbins?

  So talk to me about that. What does, what does that mean to have a conversational goal and a conversational value? If you go back to the original thing that you teach us, which is you get to choose what kind of person you are based on the things that you say and how you say them.

• 47:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Conversational goals is simply where you want to end the conversation. You want to make sure you understand what this person meant by this comment. That's your goal. Often, we start talking and then we lose track of where we're going because we're listening to respond. We're not listening to understand. Often, when you go to trial and you're listening to a witness, In their direct examination, where bad attorneys go wrong is they just start planning out their next question, regardless of what the witness says, versus waiting to hear that whole answer and adapting to it. So conversational goals is just simply where you're headed. It's the destination of where you're going. Conversational values are how

• 48:04Jefferson Fisher?

  you feel authentic to yourself to get there. So I have conversational values that I use in every conversation that I have to make sure that no matter what happens in the conversation, I can't control anything else but myself. It's my values that drive my response. For example, one of my key conversational values is if I can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse. In other words, if we can't meet in the middle, if we can't connect in some way, I'm still going to be a lighthouse for them. I'm still going to be a source of light that if they need to come back, they know where I'm at. I have another one that I use, and that is if there's room for kindness, I will use it. I get that from my mama. I'd come to her

• 48:45Jefferson Fisher?

  with a complaint, and she'd say, "Well, were you kind?" I'd say, "Well, Mom, you don't understand. This person, this person, this person." And she'd go, "Well, I still think you should be kind." It's like, you know what? If there's always room for kindness, if there's any room at all, that's a chance to use it. The last one I use is tell them who I am without telling them my name. So that's that idea of letting my words inform them of who I am without anything of my identification or my status or where I am. It's the value of how I make people feel in my words. So how do you apply those values? I'm having a conversation with opposing attorney. He says something that eats, you know, how some of them do. They tell you how great their case is.

• 49:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Right. I mean, every case they have is full of sunshine, no bruises. So you have that chance to say, "Well, could I just give them a piece of my mind and tell them how bad their case is and how I'm gonna railroad over them? Or is there any room for kindness in this conversation? And if there is any room at all, then I'm gonna use it." And it gives me the chance to say, You know what, Howard? I gotta tell you, you're great at your job and you really care about your clients. I can tell. I can really tell you care about your clients. And he goes, oh, yeah, yeah, you know, I do. I really do. And I feel great about that. And all of a sudden, he goes, you know what? And that rule 11 you wanted, I think we can agree to that. That's no problem. If I can inject my values, I don't have to worry about what to say. I don't have to worry about some zinger to send. If there's room for kindness, I'll use it.

• 50:13Jefferson Fisher?

  So you find ways to use values to control the conversation.

• 50:16Mel Robbins?

  Well, you never regret not being kind.

• 50:19Jefferson Fisher?

  It's, that's a great one. Yeah.

• 50:21Mel Robbins?

  And I always regret when I'm not.

• 50:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 50:24Mel Robbins?

  And so, one of the huge takeaways that I have is that a lot of us don't stop and think about what the intention is of a conversation and how we want to be perceived and what we want to demonstrate about ourselves by being in it. And it's everywhere, from how you walk into a meeting, if you think about what you want to get out of it, or how you want to be perceived, then that actually dictates how you're going to show up. Like, you can use this in absolutely any area of your life. And I think most of us are just sort of going through the day and surviving, and there's

• 51:07Mel Robbins?

  a completely different way to think about the way that you communicate.

• 51:12Jefferson Fisher?

  I 100% agree in that if you look at where you are in life, from your romantic relationships to where you are at work, there is a large percentage of that that is solely based upon what you said to that person. That just meant there are thoughts that came from your brain, that to your mouth, that you spoke out loud, that have influenced where you are. You said something to that person and they liked it, and now they want to date you. And they said something you liked, and there it is. You met over coffee at, you know, the airport, or where you are at work, at that promotion that you want. You have ways of just simply using the power of your words.

• 51:56Jefferson Fisher?

  To influence everything and it can change. Even if you said things in the past that you regret, or things you wish you would have said better, you can change everything about your life by what you say next.

• 52:07Mel Robbins?

  Are there a couple of steps that somebody could take

• 52:11Mel Robbins?

  to just walk themselves through the kind of person that they want to be through their words? Because I feel like there's this step, Jefferson, that we don't really take with intention of getting clear that I want to be this kind of person. And it's one thing to kind of use kind words. It's a whole nother thing to have a reckoning with yourself where you say, this is an area of my life that I want to take control of and I can take control of it. Are there particular questions that somebody could ask themselves that help them get to what their values might be

• 52:54Mel Robbins?

  in terms of how they want to change the way they communicate? What they want the world to think about them? Like, I often think when I go into a meeting, what do I want people to say when I leave? And it's a trick that I learned when I was a public defender working for Legal Aid, which is what do I want the jury to say the second that they get out of this courtroom and they get into that meeting with one another? What do I want them to say? And I use that now before I go into a meeting. What do I want them to think about me? And then I align the way that I show up based on the impact that I want to create in that room.

• 53:36Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that. I do, I'm very similar. That's the, what energy am I bringing to the room? If everybody's at a table and you walk in and you're coming in, what do you want the feeling to be? Oh, this person's here. What's that energy that you're bringing? Because every one of us has a different energy that affects the room that they're in. Is it, oh, no, somebody's here? Or, oh, great, somebody's here? Or is it the, oh, man, somebody's here? Everyone's a little bit different. The biggest tool that somebody can use is ask the question to themselves and also to the person that loves them the most, more than anybody. Who do my words say that I am? Who do my words say that I am? And that is a great question to ask yourself

• 54:19Jefferson Fisher?

  or you ask somebody else, who do my words say that I am? Because often what you say doesn't match exactly with who you want to be. I would encourage somebody to ask a friend, a spouse, the way that I speak, what kind of energy does that give? Does that give anxiety? Do I rush my words? Do I speak too fast? Do I speak too slow? How do you want to tweak the room to understand how you want to communicate with that next person? So I would encourage, in terms of action steps, it's the question that you need to answer of yourself of, who do you want to be with your words? And then what words are you going to use? I think what you have to say is awesome of think long term of just kind of call your shot.

• 55:04Jefferson Fisher?

  I want to leave that room feeling like I am somebody who's confident.

• 55:08Mel Robbins?

  Right. I think it's such an important point because you do have so much power over your reputation. You do have power over the impact that you make with other people. And taking a beat before you walk in the room, or you walk in the meeting, or you walk into the party, or you walk up to the sidelines at your kid's soccer game, to really remind yourself, what kind of person do I want to be? And now let me align what I say and the energy that I bring to represent that.

• 55:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, that's the crazy part about it. It's also the most simple part about it. And that is, it is simply within your control. When you walk away from an interaction from somebody and you go, I really liked that person. What was it? What was it that you liked? They said something nice about me. They smiled. They didn't criticize other people. It is, all has to do with your communication. And exactly how we started today was their experience of you is going to be almost entirely the words that you use right in front of them.

• 56:12Mel Robbins?

  And how they made that person feel.

• 56:13Jefferson Fisher?

  How you made that person feel, right then and there.

• 56:17Mel Robbins?

  Love this. What are your best tips to be more effective at communicating at work?

• 56:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Tip number one would be have something to learn, not something to prove. So anytime you're in an argument, and it's not just work, really anything. When you're in a conversation with somebody, have something to learn from them, rather than something to prove. Even if you want to prove yourself, you know, I want to prove who I am. That doesn't come from you pushing your own agenda. It comes from you being curious about other people. And so if you want to be known as somebody who's respectful in the workplace, or somebody who's kind, you use kind words. If you want to know somebody who's respectful, you use respectful words. So that means if you talk about somebody and gossip and do something negative, that's what people are going to associate you with.

• 57:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Because it goes even wider than that. Then if other people associate with you, that bad person, well, then you, people are going to think differently about them. So it's these circles of communication of what you said, oh, you're friends with so and so, you're friends with so and so, that are going to influence that. If you want to be more respected at work, use words that show more authority. You can use words like direction. I like to set the direction of this conversation. I don't like the direction of where this is going. All of a sudden, it sounds like you're captain of the ship.

• 57:40Jefferson Fisher?

  So you're just using the word direction. So you find ways that can influence who you want to be for good.

• 57:47Mel Robbins?

  What's one change somebody can make starting today to communicate more effectively with their family?

• 57:54Jefferson Fisher?

  When you need to have this hard conversation, at all times, show them that you love them, that you care. And you do that with the words, meaning you tell them that. I'm telling you this because I love you. Often, I know people, and you know people, that they had really hard childhoods, and they just never heard that from a parent, that I'm proud of you, that I love you. So you find ways to inject that into the conversation. I'm talking to you right now because I want us to learn from this conversation. Or I'm learning too. When you're having that, you need to de-escalate an argument with a spouse or a kid. Hey, I'm learning too. This is my first time to be a parent. This is your first time to be a kid. I'm learning too. Don't be afraid to apologize. Don't be afraid to own that. I think from a position of strength,

• 58:39Jefferson Fisher?

  you can really, really own that apology when you need to.

• 58:42Mel Robbins?

  I'm stealing that. I often say I'm doing the best I can, but I like, I'm learning too.

• 58:48Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 58:49Mel Robbins?

  That's a beautiful thing.

• 58:50Jefferson Fisher?

  It's good for spouses too. You can be dating forever, but as soon as you get married and live together, I mean, it's, it's a whole new world.

• 58:57Mel Robbins?

  It is. I once, I just recently heard somebody say that second marriages are amazing, particularly if it's with the same person. And this idea that any moment you can change your relationship because you can change yourself and how you communicate.

• 59:14Jefferson Fisher?

  And that's the only thing you can't control. You know, I can't control the other person. You can only control how you respond to it.

• 59:19Mel Robbins?

  I am going to steal everything that you just taught me. And I'm so excited that you get to listen and be here and learn from Jefferson too. We're going to be leaving here going direction, kindness. And I gotta tell you this. What are your parting words?

• 59:35Jefferson Fisher?

  To anybody who's listening, my parting words to you are this. You have a power that you haven't tapped into yet. And that is just the power of your words. If you want to be seen as somebody who's strong, you use stronger words. You want to be somebody who has seemed to be more decisive, somebody who stands up for themselves. It is not a course you have to take. It is not a book you have to read. It is simply how you need to change the next word that comes out of your mouth. It is something that can be learned at any point. It doesn't matter how young you are to how old you are. What you say next has the power to change anything. And if you use it for good and you use it for light, you're always going to go right.

• 1:00:19Mel Robbins?

  Oh my God, Jefferson.

• 1:00:21Jefferson Fisher?

  I didn't mean for that to rhyme, but.

• 1:00:23Mel Robbins?

  I love, I'm like, love you. I know that sounds like creepy, but you are a huge light.

• 1:00:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you.

• 1:00:29Mel Robbins?

  Thank you. And my parting words to you, I hope you take absolutely everything that Jefferson just shared with us and you use it. You use it to create better relationships, to speak with authority, to have your words reflect the kind of person that you really want to be. And in case no one else tells you this, I wanted to be sure to tell you, I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And as Jefferson just taught you, it's all in the power of your words. How cool is that? I'll see you in the next episode.

• 1:01:12Mel Robbins?

  Cranking it down.

• 1:01:17Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, it's like, you're right. It's like the way a semi truck when it turns off like, here comes the sneeze. Excuse me. That one was for you, Kev.

• 1:01:30Mel Robbins?

  Do you guys need another take? Was that good? Kevin, you down? Okay, great. Amazing, dude.

• 1:01:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:01:37Mel Robbins?

  There were so many tips that I'm literally like, I need to do that.

• 1:01:42Jefferson Fisher?

  This has been wonderful. Thank you.

• 1:01:47Mel Robbins?

  Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.