CZM Rewind: Part Two: How Cigarettes Invented Everything

Robert is joined again by James Stout to continue to discuss the Tobacco Industry. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:33Robert Evans?

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• 1:17Robert Evans?

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• 1:42Robert Evans?

  Hey, everybody. Robert here. Just introducing, we've got another rerun. This is the first time we've done two weeks in a row. Normally, we just do one week at the end of the year, but all of the other shows on our network and most of the other shows that I know in podcasting take off two weeks. And Sophie was like, hey, Robert, why don't you actually take off two weeks instead of cramming during your vacation to write another podcast so that we don't fall behind? And I was like, you know what, Sophie? That's a pretty good idea. So, anyway, that's what we're doing. Enjoy this episode on how cigarettes invented everything.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Should really get that checked out.

• 2:30Robert Evans?

  Cut me blowing my nose, but keep the yell, keep the yell.

• 2:34Speaker 03

  It sounded like a wounded elephant.

• 2:36Robert Evans?

  I feel like a wounded elephant. The pollen count in Oregon right now is unbelievable.

• 2:44Robert Evans?

  I just went outside during the break between episode recordings and emptied a magazine from an AR-15 into a tree, but it does not appear to have solved the problem, so.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  Now, you gotta, gotta get heavier than that, man. You gotta.

• 2:58Robert Evans?

  I should have used the 308, you know?

• 3:00Speaker 03

  That's why they went.

• 3:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that's why the army's upgraded the caliber.

• 3:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:08Robert Evans?

  You wanna fuck up a tree, yeah, you really want, you really wanna move closer to that 30 caliber range.

• 3:13Speaker 03

  Yep, this episode's brought to you by 6.8 Tree Killer.

• 3:19Speaker 03

  That end buster.

• 3:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that's 338 Lapua, baby.

• 3:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, that'll fuck up the sapling.

• 3:26Robert Evans?

  When I was a young man, times like this, right around near the end of the year, my friends and I would go out into the woods and we would shoot down a tree in order to have a bonfire around it. And that doesn't really relate to the subject of the episode, but we often smoked cigarettes while doing it.

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Not interesting. It's kind of like shooting down a tree, isn't it? Because if you're actively

• 3:50Speaker 03

  consuming base, it's a bit like shooting, shooting down a tree.

• 3:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah, you just have to hope that they can grow up faster than you can shoot them.

• 3:57Speaker 03

  Shoot them, yeah. That's what they say about trees.

• 4:01Robert Evans?

  And it's also what they say about the human race, because one thing you gotta give it to us is we bred slightly faster than cigarettes were able to kill us.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  Once again, a win for humanity.

• 4:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, the Titanic dub. So cigarettes did not get to have their real moment in the sun until a few years after the dissolution of American tobacco, which again, the Supreme Court knocks it out in 1911. Probably somewhere under 10% of smokers and a much smaller portion of the US population actually smoked cigarettes. So a pretty small fraction of the US adult population is smoking still, even even as successful as our old buddy Duke was at getting people to smoke. But the thing that's going to actually start to change this and really turn around cigarettes fortunes is the First World War. Now, James, you ever been in a trench?

• 4:58Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, I've been in a couple of trenches. So for personal professional reasons.

• 5:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah, trenches are not the cleanest places in the world, especially if it's raining and they're muddy. You wouldn't want to have a pipe in a trench necessarily. Like you could smoke a pipe in a trench, but stuff's gonna get in it. That's kind of gross, right? That's not ideal.

• 5:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:20Robert Evans?

  And when, you know, if you're doing trench stuff, you probably don't have time to sit down and really smoke a cigar. You know, they take a while. Cigarettes are the-

• 5:28Speaker 03

  Depends on what rank you're at, doesn't it? Once you-

• 5:30Robert Evans?

  Right, right. If you're sitting, yeah.

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. You get up to the, you know, the field grade offices, you're fine with a cigar.

• 5:37Robert Evans?

  They have plenty of time for cigars and they have clean enough areas for cigarette, uh, for, for pipes. But if you're a working man in the trenches, the, the best way you have to smoke in between getting murdered by German machine guns is a cigarette. And that's, that's really what causes a shitload of people to start adopting cigarettes. That's what actually makes it a mainstream thing is World War I. Now-

• 6:03Speaker 03

  Goes well with death.

• 6:05Robert Evans?

  It does go well with death, James. Cigarette adoption had crept up only gradually prior to this, and it had been met by this, a really active anti-smoking campaign the whole time. It's kind of worth noting that the first 20 years of, of like, the 20th century, basically from like, the late 1890s to like, 1917, 1918, there's a very active anti-smoking campaign in the United States. And it's powered by a lot of the same voices who are also fighting for prohibition. There were even bans on the public consumption of tobacco in some states. In 1910, a doctor named Charles Peace founded the Nonsmokers Protective League, advocating for a public smoking ban in America's largest city. In 1913, The New York Times published an op-ed opposing the establishment of smoking cars in the subway.

• 6:50Robert Evans?

  Now, these people we now know are right, you know, like, cigarettes, bad, public smoking, bad. But they're not, they're not, again, there's not strong evidence that proves cigarettes cause cancer at this point. There's not really good scientific studies at this point. These people are just busybodies, right?

• 7:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, right. They can be right for the wrong reasons. What are their arguments? That they don't like it?

• 7:19Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Let me, let me tell you. Chief among the voices of small, of nonsmokers is our old friend of the pod, John Harvey Kellogg, America's

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Oh, good, yeah.

• 7:28Robert Evans?

  Kellogg's complaint was, quote, "Smoking has become so nearly universal among men that few nonsmokers are practically ignored and their rights trampled upon." Now, that means that like, by being around cigarette smoke, you're having your rights trampled upon. And yes, we now know secondhand smoke is seriously bad for you. At the time we did it, and also, let's be honest here, 1917, walking around a city that's still filled with horse shit and now leaded gasoline fumes from all of the cars rolling around, and industrial smoke from all of the different fucking coal factories and stuff, cigarettes are not your number one health risk.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're the thing, number one trampling on your right side, 1917.

• 8:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's just not the biggest problem. Look, John Harvey Kellogg.

• 8:14Speaker 03

  Well, he has some other problems.

• 8:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah, do not give him credit for being on the right side of history with this one.

• 8:22Robert Evans?

  So, nonsmokers, also, it was not Again, because there's not greats, there are some of these people do ours are ahead of their time and are saying like, hey, this stuff is has to be bad for you. And we're going to figure out like the way in which it's killing people later. A lot of them are just angry because they think it's gross. And a huge chunk of them are angry because cigarettes are popular with women. Right? Because women start smoking. That's a big part of the anti-smoking campaign. In 1904, New York State passes a law that makes it a crime for women to quote, endanger the morals of children by smoking in their presence. A woman named Jenny Lasher was charged and sentenced to jail for violating it. In 1908, New York City aldermen passed an ordinance restricting public smoking by women.

• 9:06Robert Evans?

  From the Washington Post, quote, "The Sullivan ordinance made it illegal for restaurant and bar owners to permit women to smoke in their establishments. The stated rationale from Bowery moralist and political chieftain Tim Sullivan was that proper ladies were offended by women smoking, and it certainly wasn't any kind of attempt by a man to control women's behavior. Despite the ordinance's short duration, it lasted only two weeks. The sentiment underlying it was held by others as well. Women's smoking was viewed by many as taboo, associated with what Amanda Amos and Margarita Haglund have termed loose and libidinous moral behavior." Band name. It is a good band name. Yep. And it's, it's interesting. One of the things that cigarettes do is they make it, they are a big part of why it starts

• 9:50Robert Evans?

  to become okay for men and women to socialize together who are unmarried. Right? In a lot of ways, so one of the things that is common prior to cigarettes becoming mainstream, after you have like a big dinner, if you, if you have a fancy potty, then after dinner, the men will go to smoke cigars and the women will, you know, go clean up or something. And increasingly in the early twenties, what starts, or in the early 1900s, what starts to happen is after dinner, everybody has a cigarette. And women didn't smoke cigars, but cigarettes are new. And so it's not really that weird to a lot of modern people that women would smoke them. And also there's not women's cigarettes. So everyone's smoking the same cigarettes. And increasingly they start doing it in the same places together.

• 10:33Robert Evans?

  Unmarried men and women just hanging out and having a smoke and talking. This is a big part of, this is kind of in the background of the, of the suffrage movement. But it like cigarettes do play a significant role in the increasing acceptance of, of social equality for women because men and women spend time together to smoke. Yeah, it makes not an on factor. Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's definitely a time period when there's generally this change in gender roles, right? With women working in the First World War and like.

• 11:03Robert Evans?

  Well, that's yeah, that's another part of it, right? Is like, women are taking on men's jobs. Why wouldn't they be able to smoke?

• 11:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:11Robert Evans?

  And, you know? It's a, it's a whole thing. So smokers also started to organize to establish more public smoking places. Tobacco dealers would often back and fund local efforts to lobby for smoking cars on trains or to allow the smoking of cigarettes on the rear platform of streetcars. Within the military, there were strenuous debates as to whether or not tobacco should be legal for soldiers. In 1907, the Surgeon General of the Navy had recommended that sailors under 21 be banned from smoking cigarettes. This was outrageous to the actual men of the Navy, and one enlisted man wrote this in response. "If this cigarette recommendation has made the rule and such a thing is ordered, it's gonna put all us young fellows who like them on the beam. It's all right to talk about your cigars and your pipes, but cigarettes

• 11:55Robert Evans?

  are cigarettes. And when, and when you once get to liking the little sticks, there's nothing that can take their place. Then don't forget that life on the ocean with none of your women folks or girlfriends around to break the monotony is a lot different from life offshore. And I tell you, those dream sticks help you pass away many a dreary and home stick hour."

• 12:13Robert Evans?

  Just a bunch of Navy boys, no women around, sucking down dream sticks.

• 12:18Speaker 03

  Dream sticks, yeah. Direct quote from Joe Biden's speech about, uh, pardoning people with marijuana.

• 12:25Robert Evans?

  We're banning people for dream sticks. In an unrelated note, I saw a picture of Joe Biden with a quantum computer the other day, and it just struck me as the most wrong thing. It's like looking at Winston Churchill with a Game Boy. Like, no, those aren't supposed to be in the same photograph. Joe Biden should never have lived to see a quantum computer.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  It's like seeing a Diplodocus or a Tamagotchi hanging out.

• 12:46Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:47Speaker 03

  You don't expect it.

• 12:48Robert Evans?

  No, that's not okay. That's not okay.

• 12:52Robert Evans?

  So opposition to cigarettes in the military disappeared overnight once the United States got into World War I. Much of this had to do with Blackjack Pershing, the leader of the American Expeditionary Force, who, when asked what Americans could do to support their soldiers going overseas, gave this reply. "You ask me what we need to win this war. I answer tobacco, as much as bullets."

• 13:14Speaker 03

  Oh, great. And it's so true.

• 13:17Robert Evans?

  It is, yeah.

• 13:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, we've spoken about this before, but the universal truth of conflict journalism. If you need something and you're not sure that someone's going to give it to you, you can probably get it by giving someone enough cigarettes.

• 13:28Robert Evans?

  I keep packs on me every time I'm anywhere near, because like, and it's not always just getting something. Some of it is like, you meet people and they're standoffish because like, I don't know, they're fucking soldiers in a war zone whose daily life involves dealing with horrible trauma and they don't know you. And then you like bust out some Marlboros and you sit and smoke for like 20 minutes together. And then they just start talking, you know, like that's a thing. They're useful. They're, they work.

• 13:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're a great tool for journalism.

• 13:57Robert Evans?

  Well, they're also, in terms of how they're being used, that's not unhealthy by the military. Because cigarettes, spoilers, make you worse at everything that is important for soldiers, almost everything, right? Today, US soldiers who smoke score an average of 35 points lower on PT tests. Cigarette smoking harms your night vision. Like, it's bad for your performance. Yes, they are bad for your performance in combat. In addition to like, people get shot smoking cigarettes. Sniper see the cherries, right?

• 14:24Speaker 03

  That happens for sure.

• 14:26Robert Evans?

  But one thing they do is they are a stress reliever. And we can debate in the long term, it's not a great coping strategy. But if your daily job is to get shot at repeatedly, you don't care about the long term. You just want like a moment where things feel okay.

• 14:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, there is not a long term for a lot of people in World War I.

• 14:44Robert Evans?

  No, no, no, especially not. And the other thing that they do is, as we just talked about, people bond while smoking. It's a part of why men and women, it's a way in which men and women start to bond socially in a way they had not in a long time in Western society. And soldiers in the trenches bond sharing smokes. It is a thing that you do with each other. And you can't, number one, this is a thing I don't think the tobacco industry could have anticipated, because it's just a very human thing. And it's also, you can't fight this. Like, there's not, there's nothing to do about it. It's just a thing that people have adopted for themselves in a difficult time.

• 15:23Robert Evans?

  And so this is a, this is a problem for the anti-smoking people. Obviously, smoking, again, very bad for everything else that makes you be a soldier. But soldiers are not thinking about that in the times when they're smoking them. And in a lot of military planners cases, like they're also, it's hard to argue, even though you've got people who are in the medical profession for the military, being like, these probably aren't good for people. It's hard to argue that like a guy who you're asking to run in a machine gun nest doesn't deserve to have like a cigarette.

• 15:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:55Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 15:55Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 15:57Robert Evans?

  And, you know, if you know America, you know that love for our military is basically the not so secret control level lever for the American mind. So cigarettes had been controversial prior to World War I, but once we start sending men in the field and Pershings like we need cigarettes, organizations that had previously lobbied nationwide for smoking bans, like the YMCA, prior to World War I, the YMCA is a massive part of trying to ban public smoking. As soon as the war starts, they start shipping pallets of cigarettes to the battlefield.

• 16:27Speaker 03

  It's great. And truth for so long, you can just put the, put the support the troops stank on anything and people will love it here.

• 16:38Robert Evans?

  It's, it's interesting. In the cigarette century, Alan Brant writes, "Volunteers organized smoke funds to collect donations to assure that the troops had adequate supplies of cigarettes. The SUN Fund amassed 137 million cigarettes in a two-month period. Tobacco may not be a necessity of life in the ordinary sense of the term, explained to the New York Times, but it certainly lightens the inevitable hardships of war as nothing else can do. The National Cigarette Service Committee collected the names of soldiers without families to make sure they received cigarettes. Volunteers prepared packages for shipment to the troops under the auspices of groups such as the Army Girls Transport Tobacco Fund."

• 17:15Speaker 03

  Just great.

• 17:16Robert Evans?

  That's sweet.

• 17:19Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, amazing. I'm sure these people like were also like dying of trench foot and would have really appreciated like a new pair of socks.

• 17:27Robert Evans?

  Yes, socks probably also would have gone over well.

• 17:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, coat.

• 17:31Robert Evans?

  I don't know. I mean, I assume the military was already attempting to provide those things. Like, it is new that you would provide cigarettes as the military.

• 17:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:40Robert Evans?

  So, in the early days of the war, the US war effort, I should say, the fact that most aid organizations in Europe provided cigarettes to soldiers for a fee, often substantial, regularly made the news back home. Soldiers were like, "We're paying as much for a cigarette at the front as we have to pay back at home." Like, that's kind of fucked up. Now, donated cigarettes were only able to solve a small portion of this problem. 139 million cigarettes is not a lot. If you know anything about cigarettes, that's not very many. Sounds like a lot. It is not. A fucking army in the field will smoke through 139 million cigarettes quicker than they'll go through that many bullets.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is true.

• 18:23Robert Evans?

  Donated cigarettes only, yeah, solved a small number of the problems. So, the War Department had to make the decision to issue tobacco rations to soldiers, starting in May of 1918. The New York Times wrote of the decision, quote, "A wave of joy swept through the American Army today."

• 18:39Speaker 03

  Great. And let them have it.

• 18:41Robert Evans?

  War fever means a temporary end to the anti-smoking movement. Many men who had hated cigarettes prior to the war had become addicts while overseas, right? They, you know, they're big hygiene guys before, and then they get shot at and they have a smoke in the fucking trench with their buddy. And then, you know, for the rest of their lives, they think kindly of cigarettes.

• 19:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:01Robert Evans?

  And also, the fact that the cigarette is now associated with the hard-bitten trench fighter means that you can't attack the moral character of smokers. The anti-smoking movement, they're only smoked by criminals and not white people, right? And now, they're like, they're part of the icon of the heroic soldier, right?

• 19:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:18Robert Evans?

  So, in 1900, again, barely 5% of the country smoked, or like 1904, something like that. By 1940, and again, sorry, but in like the start of the 1900s, about 5% of the country who smokes tobacco smokes, right? By 1940...

• 19:35Robert Evans?

  Forty percent of the United States adult population smokes on a daily basis. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. It is a huge increase. Yeah, that is crazy. Average per consumer consumption escalated too. In 1900, Americans consumed about 54 cigarettes per person per year, right? Okay. That's the average for the whole population. In 1963, Americans consume 4,300 cigarettes per year. Jesus Christ. I was not expecting that. That is so many cigarettes. Yeah. Forty three hundred per, Jesus Christ. That's quite a few cigarettes. Yeah. Yeah, you're really upping the intake there. They're gonna get through those Pokemon card collections now. Oh, yeah.

• 20:20Robert Evans?

  No, no, a lot of kids are getting a lot of baseball cards. Yep. You know, those numbers are driven up by all of the 11-year-old smoking 12,000 cigarettes. Smoking four cigarettes at once.

• 20:35Robert Evans?

  Just burning through an entire carton in a day. Yeah.

• 20:40Robert Evans?

  So this new wave of smokers brought with it changes in American smoking habits, largely driven by R.J. Reynolds, president of the Reynolds Tobacco Company. Richard Joshua Reynolds had been born on July 20, 1850, in Patrick County, Virginia. His father was a tobacco farmer, and as a young man, Reynolds worked for his dad's plantation, which absolutely included a fuckload of enslaved people. R.J. was just 15 when the Civil War ended, bringing with it the first tiny surge in cigarette usage. He quickly fell in love with the things, and he turned his father's company into an industry-leading producer. And R.J. Reynolds is different from Duke in that Duke, when he smokes, smokes cigars, right? He wants to sell cigarettes. He thinks they're a good business. He doesn't understand them, right? He understands how to get people to want to buy something.

• 21:25Robert Evans?

  He's a good marketer. He doesn't really get what people like in a cigarette. There is nothing that R.J. Reynolds loves more than cigarettes. This man, like, you have never loved a human being in your life the way this man loves the concept of a cigarette. He is such a cigarette lover that he attempts to avoid getting into Duke's tobacco trust, right? He has his own way he wants to do things. He doesn't want to get involved in this trust. He wants to sell his cigarettes the way he wants to.

• 21:55Robert Evans?

  He actually gets forced by Duke into the trust because Duke uses shady methods to buy two thirds of Reynolds Tobacco's stock to force the company into American Tobacco. And despite this, RJ Reynolds refuses to work with Duke, and he even secretly helps the US government build an antitrust case against American Tobacco. When the Supreme Court broke the trust, Reynolds had one goal: to fuck over Buck Duke and his company. In 1913, he created a new cigarette, which featured a mix of American and Turkish tobacco to create a blended cigarette. He called this new cigarette "The Camel."

• 22:29Speaker 03

  Oh, there it is, Camel cigarettes. Why did he choose camel?

• 22:34Robert Evans?

  Because it's Turkish tobacco.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah.

• 22:38Robert Evans?

  You know, turkey, camels, two things that are

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, famously.

• 22:42Robert Evans?

  Constantly associated with each other.

• 22:44Speaker 03

  Just imagine how much better it would be if he just called it "The Turkey."

• 22:48Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm, "The Turkey," right.

• 22:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, because angry Turkish nationalists love the fact that those two things are sort of, they sound the same, but they mean different things.

• 22:58Robert Evans?

  He should have called it "The Greek" and then had just a drawing of the Anatolian Peninsula on it. They'd be banned there to this day.

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, there would have been more wars in 20th century Europe.

• 23:11Robert Evans?

  I'm going to quote now from the cigarette century. "To help distinguish it from its competition, Reynolds offered no promotions. Smokers realize that the value is in the cigarettes and do not expect promotions or coupons," he explained. Against Duke's earlier advertising devoted to these now traditional promotional devices, Reynolds went modern. Reynolds committed unprecedented advertising money to promote this single product, creating a national campaign to make the Camel cigarette a truly national brand. In 1914, newspapers throughout the country ran ads several days in succession that announced simply, "The camels are coming." They were followed by a second wave of ads proclaiming, "Tomorrow, there will be more in this town than all of Asia and Africa combined."

• 23:52Robert Evans?

  Creating such expectations and their fulfillment would become a central technique of modern consumer advertising. The third ad portraying the Camel cigarette package read, "Camel cigarettes are here." This advertising campaign, and here the term "campaign" appropriately reflects the strategic technique, met with unprecedented success.

• 24:11Speaker 03

  Look at that. Yeah.

• 24:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Smart man.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is like an iconic brand. Okay, cigarettes like, I know there are many brands that seem to like be as iconic as cigarette brands and it's global and.

• 24:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And this is the start of that part of it, right? Because cigarettes have started to go viral in this, but not necessarily on a brand basis, right? You do have kind of some of these early brands, but they all like every tobacco company has a bunch of different brands and they sell different ones in different regions.

• 24:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:40Robert Evans?

  Reynolds is the first guy to be like, no, not only do I want my company to be the biggest, I want this one specific kind of cigarette to be everywhere. So when World War I ended, Camel accounted for more than 30% of the US cigarette market. Camels came into vogue just as a new generation of female smokers came onto the scene. These women had traditionally taken male job, had taken traditionally male jobs for men who'd left to fight. And after helping to save the US economy, they didn't take well to the argument that them enjoying a smoke was some sort of sin against femininity. From the Washington Post. Cigarette advertising companies, which at the time primarily employed male advertising executives, quickly co-opted the ideas of independence that women began to assert at the polls and in the workplace.

• 25:21Robert Evans?

  They targeted women conveying the notions that women who smoked were independent, attractive, and even athletic. Lucky Strike's 1925 marketing pitch to women told them to "reach for a lucky instead of a sweet." The message, "Smoke and you'll be thin."

• 25:34Speaker 03

  Oh, great. There it is.

• 25:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's pretty fun. Yeah.

• 25:39Speaker 03

  Wondered how long that would take.

• 25:40Robert Evans?

  And this is number one, one thing that starts to happen in this is a whole new generation of extremely skinny female models starts to become popular because of this Lucky Strike ad campaign. They helped to create like that, that whole thing, that whole trend. Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Body image.

• 25:58Robert Evans?

  Now, this, there's a backlash to this and there's kind of a war between cigarettes and the candy industry. And it's very funny that one of the cigarettes that'll come on the market at this time, I think it might be Marlboros. Their advertising campaign is to like push back at Camel by being like, no, cigarettes and candy are both good for you. You should have your cigarette and your chocolate. They're a healthy treat.

• 26:23Robert Evans?

  But no, the candy industry has to be like, the fuck are you saying about people not eating candy? Come on. We're not trying to shit on cigarettes here.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  It's just too nice. Woody won't care.

• 26:34Robert Evans?

  What the fuck?

• 26:38Speaker 03

  And just when they start making candy cigarettes and really.

• 26:40Robert Evans?

  Well, yeah, this is that. And in this period, one of the interesting things about candy cigarettes, when they first get made, they're all made with the brands of real cigarettes. So there'll be candles. Now, not legally, they're all illegal. They're all candy companies using a brand illegally. The cigarette industry makes a concerted decision to never pursue charges over it, to never go after them. Because they're like, well, if kids get used to picking up a pack of camels, that's a win for us.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:10Robert Evans?

  Like, there's no downside to us letting them do this.

• 27:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a win for everyone. Great.

• 27:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Now, one thing that does happen in the post-war period is that female smokers are an easier target for anti-smoking advocates than soldiers who are, you know, heroic and stuff. When the 18th Amendment gets passed banning the sale of alcohol, moral crusaders like evangelist Billy Sunday turned their attention to tobacco, saying in one speech, prohibition is won. Now for tobacco. The Women's Christian Temperance Union issued a pamphlet titled Smoking Next. The first success in this wave of the anti-smoking movement came in Utah, which banned the sale, giving away, or other exchange of cigarettes. The bill's advocates included the WCTU and the Mormon Church, both of which emphasized the moral

• 27:56Robert Evans?

  risks of letting women be seen smoking. Senator Edward Southwick, who wrote the bill, quoted US Surgeon General Hugh Cumming, which was his real name, as saying, "If American women generally contract the habit, as reports now indicate they are doing, the entire American nation will suffer. The physical tone of the whole nation will be lowered. This is one of the most evil influences in American life today. The habit harms a woman more than it does a man."

• 28:24Speaker 03

  Great. Thanks, Hugh.

• 28:25Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  Blessed with a wonderful name and intellect.

• 28:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. Real, real smart guy. Real comer Hugh.

• 28:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. There are other names he could have been cursed with, which could have been, his first name could have been worse, but.

• 28:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:38Robert Evans?

  But, no. But you know what will make you come, James?

• 28:43Speaker 03

  Uh, please enlighten me.

• 28:46Robert Evans?

  The sponsors of our podcasts. Not their products, which are asexual, but the actual people who run and own stock in the companies. Anytime you ask for it.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  That's good to know.

• 28:58Robert Evans?

  That's, that's a promise.

• 28:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'll put that in the old context book.

• 29:04Speaker 04

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 29:34Robert Evans?

  This ad is brought to you by ViiV Healthcare, the makers of Dovato, Dolutegravir, Lamivudine. If you're living with HIV, do learn about Dovato. Dovato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Dovato is right for you. Most HIV pills contain three or four medicines. Dovato is as effective with just two. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines than Dovato.

• 29:58Speaker 05

  It is unknown if Dovato is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B. If you have Hep B, don't stop Dovato without talking to your doctor, as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients, or taking Dofetilide due to serious or life-threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Dovato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life-threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding, or planned pregnancy.

• 30:34Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit dovato.com or call 1-877-844-8872.

• 30:44Robert Evans?

  Ah, we're back. We're talking about cum. You know, every time I talk about cum on this show, somebody gets up in the subreddit and they're like, "I wish they wouldn't make juvenile jokes about cum. It's not very funny."

• 30:57Speaker 03

  It's exceptionally funny to make juvenile jokes about cum.

• 31:00Robert Evans?

  I am never gonna stop making jokes about cum. And I'm never gonna stop telling people that when Mitch McConnell comes, all that exits his penis is a mix of dry scabs and spider legs.

• 31:12Speaker 03

  That, while not juvenile, is still funny.

• 31:15Robert Evans?

  It is. It's funny and true, James.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  Exceptionally funny, yeah, it's true. And he can sue us over it, we'll take him to court. Show us, show us the evidence Mitch. Yeah.

• 31:25Robert Evans?

  Show us the evidence Mitch. Show us the evidence that when you come, the dry scabs exiting your urethra don't make a sound exactly like crabs scuttling on a soapstone bed. Prove it to me. Prove it to me Mitch.

• 31:40Speaker 03

  I'm now physically unwell.

• 31:44Robert Evans?

  Would you like a cigarette?

• 31:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think I've been traumatized on a level that's

• 31:50Robert Evans?

  Justifies tobacco?

• 31:53Speaker 03

  I'd like to shorten my life, yes.

• 31:54Robert Evans?

  Well, why don't you reach for a lucky instead of a sweet?

• 31:57Speaker 03

  That will help me stay, maintain my girlish physique.

• 32:01Robert Evans?

  So, as we've just come back, the surgeon general has been like, this is going to lower the moral tone of women. And again, I, just so that I'm not mistaken, cigarettes are bad, don't smoke them. These people are technically in the right, but they're in the right for the wrong reasons usually. So fuck them. I'm going to quote again from Alan Brandt here. "Another supporter of the legislation noted that 'the fingers of our girls are being varnished with the stains of those harmful little instruments of destruction. Just as earlier opponents of the cigarette had done, Senator Southwick argued that the use of the cigarette violated the liberties of non-smokers, which is fair, offended moral sensibilities, which is unfair, and polluted public space, which is, we'll call that one, mixed. We

• 32:44Robert Evans?

  cannot bring our wives and daughters to the city, he wrote, and cannot come along without encountering tobacco smoke everywhere, as it that saturates our clothing and nauseates us. Personal liberty, ours is as inviolate, or is as, or should be as theirs.'"

• 32:57Speaker 03

  Amazing. Like, at a time when, like, industry is ripping children's arms off their bodies.

• 33:02Robert Evans?

  Oh yeah, no. People are just burning pure petroleum jelly in the back of a fucking Model T.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, just pouring some lead into the reserve lead tank.

• 33:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, again, fucking 1922, your, your worst encounter is not going to be with tobacco smoke in the streets of a city.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  The coal burning colonialism factory isn't a problem, it's women smoking that we need to worry about.

• 33:25Robert Evans?

  Now, by 1922, 16 states had banned or restricted cigarette sales and promotion. But none of these restrictions lasted long. The disaster that was prohibition and the growing number of tobacco addicts made the anti-smoking cause untenable. A chief issue with the fight to restrict smoking was the fact that it rested mostly on moral panic grounds, right? Again, if all of these people are saying smoking is horrible for your health and we shouldn't be doing it, that's one thing. But a lot of them are being like, "Well, women shouldn't be smoking. It's bad for kids to see it. It's gonna stain their hands." They don't have, at this point, they don't have widely agreed upon medical evidence that smoking is bad for you. And in fact, a lot of doctors will argue that smoking is, if not healthy, then not

• 34:10Robert Evans?

  a serious harm. It was not as common in this period to have doctors be like, "Smoking clears your lungs." But most of them tended to be like, "Well, it's not that bad for you," right? It's like, you know, it's like, it is like eating candy, right? That's what they, it's not like eating candy. Please, I'm not saying that. Someone's gonna get really angry at me. I'm just saying, if you're a doctor in the twenties, odds are, rather than saying, "Smoking is bad for you," you're saying like, "Well, it's probably okay to have the occasional cigarette as part of a balanced diet," or whatever, you know? Right. And again, doctors are heavily debating, as the thirties dawn, whether or not smoking causes cancer. There were studies by this point that showed a correlation between self-reported smoking habits and lung cancer.

• 34:52Robert Evans?

  And by the 1920s, rates of lung cancer had started to soar. Given all of this, it might seem easy to prove a link between cigarettes and lung cancer, but it's not. All you've got in the twenties is that there's a correlation between the two. But obviously, cigarettes aren't the only thing that's been introduced to modern life in the early part of the 20th century, right? There's cars now, suddenly. People are getting a whole bunch of different medications that didn't used to exist. All sorts of shit is around that just wasn't before. So how do you know? How do you know? Think about this. How can you prove, if you're just a dude in 1920 fucking too, that the thing causing lung cancer in your friends is the cigarette and not the car or the fucking Floret?

• 35:35Robert Evans?

  Light bulbs, right? Like, you don't know, there's not, there's not evidence at this point, you know?

• 35:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're just part of this industrial modernity.

• 35:44Robert Evans?

  Yeah, a lot has changed really quickly.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:47Robert Evans?

  And there's actually, there's some surprisingly logical reasons to question the early science. One doctor and critic over fears of cigarette use, one of the guys who's arguing against the people saying that lung cancer and smoking are correlated. One of the things he says is that like, well, when we get lung cancer patients, they have a lung and one, they have a tumor in one lung or the other. Very few of them have tumors in both lungs, but when you smoke, the smoke is drawn into both lungs equally. So if smoking is causing lung cancer, why wouldn't it be causing it in both lungs at the same time? Obviously, we know that just, that's just the way cancer works, right?

• 36:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:19Robert Evans?

  But again, based on the knowledge at the time, that's not a bad point to make, right? He's wrong, but you can see how a person who is not like in the pocket of big tobacco could make that mistake.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah. His reasoning is not inherently unsound, right? He's wrong, but, but not because he's like, again, later, all the scientists on the other side of this will be doing something fundamentally dishonest. These are just people trying to understand the human body in a period in which we don't have that much information about it.

• 36:49Robert Evans?

  Other scientists would argue that the rise in lung cancer was attributed to the fact that life expectancy had risen a lot in the first quarter of the 20th century. People were getting more weird cancers, they argued, because people were living longer. Maybe lung cancer has always been normal once you hit a certain age and we just didn't have that many people reaching it, you know?

• 37:07Speaker 03

  Makes sense.

• 37:08Robert Evans?

  Again, these are not inherently illogical arguments. Now, there were, however, doctors early on who were, who figured out what was happening, who knew and who put together that there was a link between smoking and lung cancer, but it took data a long time to catch up with that. For one thing, epidemiology is in its infancy in this period of time. The first small batch studies, and by the late 20s, we have studies that show a correlation between smoking and lung cancer, but there's no control group. So all they show it, so there's no group of people who don't smoke to see what their lung cancer rates are, because that's not a normal part of medical science yet. They're starting to do that, they're figuring out like, oh yeah, you should have fucking control groups in your medical studies, but it's not the thing that you just do de rigueur

• 37:53Robert Evans?

  at this point in time. It becomes it partly as a result of this research. And in fact, there's a 1928 article in the New England Journal of Medicine in which this, that points out like, It shows a link between smoking and lung cancer, but it also points out that their study and other similar studies are of little value without similar studies on individuals without cancer, without control groups, right? So part of why that becomes more common in this period is scientists trying to figure out if there's a link between smoking and lung cancer. The scientists who write that 1928 study, Herbert Lombard and Carl Dering, carried out their own small 200-person study with a control group. And this is the first good quality study we have that shows lung cancer is, I mean, it shows a bunch of things.

• 38:36Robert Evans?

  Number one, I shouldn't say shows, it suggests a bunch of things. Number one, it suggests that lung cancer is not a contagious disease, which how would you have known that, you know, without scientific data? You don't know that people aren't giving it to each other, right? That it's not some weird thing that people got when they started walking in the Amazon or whatever, right? How would you know? They know, they find, or at least the data suggests that it's also, there's not a correlation between lung cancer and low-quality housing, which was another thing people didn't know. Right. It's something about the way we insulate our homes, you know? They also find out that it's not associated with constipation, which was a thing that some doc, and again, we can laugh about that, but how would you know if you didn't do the study, right? Yeah, right, yeah. One of the, the primary, like, damning thing the study finds

• 39:20Robert Evans?

  is that self-reported heavy smokers are 27% likelier to get lung cancer. This is the first scientifically solid evidence linking cigarettes to lung cancer. Now, 200-person study with a 200-person control group, that's not definitive, right? That's enough to justify further research, sure, but that's not a huge study. The 1930s are where we're going to see the first attempts on a large scale to document the relationship between cigarettes and cancer. The impetus to this, the impetus for this research actually comes from one of the few industries that can rival big tobacco for sheer evil, the insurance industry. They are the people who are gonna, because they see this early research and they're like, wait a second, we're paying a shitload of money out on all these fuckers dying of lung cancer. If cigarettes cause it, we need to be charging people more if they smoke, right?

• 40:05Robert Evans?

  Like, they're doing it for evil reasons, but it is important research. King Kong versus Godzilla. Yeah, exactly. So one of the chief drivers of this is a guy named Frederick Hoffmann, who is a statistician at Prudential. And Hoffmann notices in 1931 that a lot of fucking life insurance policies are being filled for dead lung cancer patients. If smoking was the cause, then again, You're going to need to restructure the way premiums work. A lot of money is at stake, which is obviously what interest prudential. They don't care about the cost of human life. So the thing that Hoffman notices is that in 1915, the lung cancer rate stands at about 0.7 people per thousand people, right? About 0.7 people per every thousand in the population are likely to get lung cancer.

• 40:50Robert Evans?

  By 1920, it's risen to 1.1 per thousand. It's 1.6 per thousand by 1924 and 1.9 per thousand by 1928. That means in 13 years, the rate of lung cancer has nearly tripled. Now Hoffman is not bound by the ethical constraints of a doctor, right? He doesn't have to wait until he has really good data to be like, smoking causes lung cancer. He sees this, he puts two and two together, and he becomes the first prominent figure to publish a claim that tobacco use is associated with a heightened rate of cancer and early death. And he's doing it again to warn insurance companies. A new wave of studies follows. And as the 1930s gives away to the 40s, the tobacco industry keeps a worried, watchful eye on this emerging science.

• 41:34Robert Evans?

  They also start exploding their advertising budgets in order to kind of make up for the increasing talk in the background about maybe cigarettes aren't so great for us. In 1911, prior to the bust of the American Tobacco Trust, the entire cigarette industry profited about $13 million a year. By 1918, the big five tobacco companies were spending more than $13 million every year just in ads. In doing so, they'd helped create the very language of American culture. And I'm going to quote from a write-up in The Journal of Marketing Theory and Practice by Richard Polais. "Cigarette sellers were among the most enthusiastic pioneers in the use of network broadcasting for coast-to-coast advertising. By 1930, American Tobacco, Brown & Williamson, P. Lorillard,

• 42:17Robert Evans?

  and R.J. Reynolds were all buying to network radio time. There has been no greater enthusiast for radio broadcast advertising than George W. Hill of the ATC, whose business for the first five months of 1930 surpassed all records. The company sponsors the Lucky Strike Dance Orchestra in three-hour broadcasts each week. Lucky Strike sponsored many radio comedies and musical shows, such as Jack Benny and the K.K." College of Music Musical Knowledge and the best known and longest running popular musical shows Lucky Strike's Hit Parade. This show started in 1928 and ran into the 1950s on television. It featured teen idol Frank Sinatra when he was launching his career. So popular was this show in 1938 that a sweepstakes promotion offering free cartons

• 42:59Robert Evans?

  of Luckys for the names of the three most popular tunes drew nearly seven million entries per week.

• 43:04Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 43:05Robert Evans?

  The Lucky Strike Hit Parade was the first show to rank popular music releases in an ongoing basis. This is where we get the top 40. The entire structure of the musical industry comes out of Lucky Strike's Hit Parade.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, they gave us all those crappy Christmas number one singles and it seems like podcasts more or less.

• 43:21Robert Evans?

  And podcasts. We all owe a debt to Lucky Strike.

• 43:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, every time you read a Dick Dicke advert, just think of Lucky. Well, in more ways than one, actually, that's an unfortunate coincidence.

• 43:32Robert Evans?

  Let's, let's all give the good folks at Lucky Strike a solid. Go out and pick out a pack right now. You don't have to smoke it. Give it to a kid, you know, they love to smoke. Sophie, what?

• 43:42Speaker 03

  Is that too?

• 43:44Robert Evans?

  I'm done with my script. I'm throwing to ads now. I'm throwing to ads like the good men at RJ Reynolds and Laura Lard and the other greats of the tobacco industry taught me to, Sophie. I'm, I'm, I'm honoring our ancestors.

• 44:02Speaker 04

  Cash Flow Crunch. OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 44:33Robert Evans?

  This ad is brought to you by ViiV Healthcare, the makers of Devoto Dolutigrevir Lamivudine. If you're living with HIV, do learn about Devoto. Devoto is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Devoto was right for you. Most HIV pills contain three or four medicines. Devoto is as effective with just two. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines than Devoto.

• 44:56Speaker 05

  It is unknown if Devoto is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B. If you have Hep B, don't stop Devoto without talking to your doctor, as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Devoto if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking Dofetolide due to serious or life-threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Devoto and get medical help right away. Other serious or life-threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding, or planned pregnancy.

• 45:32Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devoto.com or call 1-877-844-8872.

• 45:42Robert Evans?

  We're back.

• 45:44Speaker 03

  Yep, we've all had a cigarette and we're ready to go.

• 45:47Robert Evans?

  Cigarettes have now just invented the modern music industry.

• 45:52Speaker 03

  The lunatics taken over the asylum now.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  James, do not encourage his behavior.

• 45:57Speaker 03

  They had a couple of lucky strikes. They felt better and they took over the asylum.

• 46:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that is a lucky strike, if you ask me. So the need to capture smokers young, because market research had shown that people tended to be brand loyal, also helped to create the modern conception of ad demographics, right? Advertisers start learning how to differentiate and split. You know, the idea that like the 18 to 35 males is like the most valuable ad. That comes out here, right?

• 46:23Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 46:24Robert Evans?

  And it's because like, that's when you gotta get them fuckers smoking, right? Earlier, if possible.

• 46:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, 11 to 18 is really the key.

• 46:31Robert Evans?

  Ideally, like 11 or 12. They advertise a lot in colleges and they also, it leads tobacco companies to steer more and more towards funding children's entertainment. This starts with the comics pages. A syndicated weekly pop collection called Puck is like massive for cigarette ads. But as Polley writes, it quickly expanded beyond that. Quote, "In the 1950s, many brands used cartoon trade characters in their advertising. The ads on Lucky Strike's hit parade for a while featured a cute animated character called Scoop, who through the then impressive technical feat of superimposition, appeared on a on screen with the show's star, Dorothy Collins. So that's where we get who framed Roger Rabbit, motherfuckers. Cigarettes taught us how to do that. Yep.

• 47:15Robert Evans?

  It gave us Avatar. Philip Morris's US Philip Morris's cartoons when advertising on I love Philip Morris used cartoons when advertising on I Love Lucy. Laurelard created TV cartoon ads for Old Gold that featured the voices of their honeymooners stars, Jackie Gleason and Art Carney. This presaged the Winston Spots that employed the animated hit characters from The Flintstones, a totally cartoon show they sponsored, whose voices, structure, and sense of humor all imitated the honeymooners. And I think a lot of people are vaguely aware that the Flintstones used to have cigarette ads. You knew that, right? No, I didn't think so. That's why it was created. The Flintstones were made as a cigarette ad. And to get an idea for how blatant this advertising was, you need to see some old

• 48:01Robert Evans?

  episodes of The Flintstones. And I think this one includes a representative scene. You should know to understand what's happening on the screen. Right at the start of this, we see Fred and Barney kind of like hanging out in the yard on their asses while their wives are doing like yard work and house chores. So they're like chilling out, watching their wives work. Right. Good stuff.

• 48:21Speaker 06

  They sure work hard, don't they, buddy? Yeah. I hate to see them work so hard. Yeah, me too. Um, let's go around back where we can't see them.

• 48:33Speaker 06

  Gee, we ought to do something, Fred. Okay. How's about taking a nap? Hey, I got a better idea. Let's take a Winston break. That's it. Winston's the one who spilt the cigarette that delivers flavor 20 times a pack. Winston's got that spilt the flame. Yeah, Fred.

• 48:52Speaker 06

  Filterblender makes the big taste difference and only Winston has it up front where it counts. Here, ahead of the pure white filter. Winston packs rich tobacco specially selected and specially processed for good flavor in filter smoke.

• 49:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's still going.

• 49:08Speaker 06

  Winston tastes good like a cigarette charge.

• 49:14Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah, that is a lot of cigarette advertising.

• 49:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was at first I was appalled by the directors of it, but then just the duration of it.

• 49:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 49:25Robert Evans?

  They really were committed to selling kids cigarettes.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Winston also, not a great name compared to like Camel.

• 49:32Robert Evans?

  No, no, Camel Marlboro.

• 49:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, just a dude called Winston with little imagination.

• 49:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 03

  Wow, that was amazing. Just.

• 49:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's the best.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is like Alex Jones here, just transitioned from content to ads.

• 49:47Robert Evans?

  Fucking Barney Rubble wants to get your ass into a pack of Swinstons.

• 49:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's gonna be doing, what is it, fucking silver or whatever Alex Jones is trying to sell you now.

• 49:56Robert Evans?

  Yeah, colloidal silver.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:58Robert Evans?

  To a place that you can shoot up your ass. I don't know.

• 50:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, nor do I care. Don't. I don't think our listenership overlapped, so no one else knows either, so it's fine.

• 50:07Robert Evans?

  No, our listeners are buying a lot of gold now because of those gold ads running.

• 50:10Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, well, that's good. It's been a success. We have to get him back for the next season.

• 50:14Robert Evans?

  Yeah, we love, we love the gold ad people. You know, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna do a free ad right now. Buy gold. It's the cigarettes of currency. Well, actually, that's cigarettes. Gold's almost as valuable as cigarettes in a pinch, so pick some up today, smoke it. Why don't you, you know what, James, I have an idea. Why don't we make a lot of money? We get cigarettes, grind up gold into them, pour gold flakes into the cigarettes and then sell them to rich assholes who have TikToks.

• 50:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's definitely, there's like a thing, isn't there like a vodka or something that has gold flakes in it?

• 50:47Robert Evans?

  There's a couple of liquors that have it.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, you may perceive it as unnecessary, Sophie, but I need to signal that I have

• 50:55Speaker 02

  So many, so many gold, unnecessary gold.

• 50:58Robert Evans?

  Uh, so you know how there's

• 51:02Speaker 02

  You know what is necessary? Robert getting back to the script.

• 51:06Robert Evans?

  Pour out some gold liquor and

• 51:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm back.

• 51:10Robert Evans?

  Wrap a cigarette in gold foil.

• 51:12Speaker 03

  There was no gold, but I've got my glass of lead vodka here and I'm good.

• 51:18Robert Evans?

  So during the late 40s to the early 50s, the science coming out about cigarettes and cancer starts to look worse and worse. The RJ Reynolds company launches a new campaign for Camel cigarettes in 1946 centered around the slogan, "More doctors smoke Camels than any other cigarette."

• 51:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, good.

• 51:36Robert Evans?

  Six years, this is like, this is their main advertising push for six years.

• 51:40Speaker 03

  The dentist and toothbrush thing with cigarettes, amazing. Great.

• 51:44Robert Evans?

  Yeah, absolutely. Yes. The cigarette that nine out of 10 doctors recommend. Reynolds backs up their claim that more doctors smoke Camels than any other cigarette with surveys that they said had been conducted by, quote, "Three leading independent research organizations." Now, they don't name these organizations. One representative ad claims that a survey of 113,597 doctors from, quote, "Every branch of medicine" had shown that Camels were the brand most often smoked by doctors.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what you want is the cigarette that your podiatrist chooses.

• 52:18Robert Evans?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I want to know. Yeah. No, nobody, nobody knows what you should be smoking better than a fucking proctologist. That's, that's, that's, that's who's got it down. Yeah. As an obstetrician.

• 52:34Speaker 03

  My urologist chooses Winston's.

• 52:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that would be quite funny. Boy, women seem to really want a cigarette after giving birth. Probably good for you.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  Why not drink?

• 52:47Robert Evans?

  So. RJ Reynolds assured customers that this survey, which totally existed, was an actual fact and not a casual claim. And their competitors were all doing the same thing. American Tobacco President George Washington Hill contracted the legendary ad executive Albert Lasker and tasked him to come up with a reason why customers should smoke his cigarettes. And I want to quote now from a write-up in the American Journal of Public Health. "With no real scientific evidence to back their claims, American Tobacco insisted that the toasting process that Lucky Strikes Tobacco underwent decreased throat irritation. In fact, Lucky Strikes' curing process did not significantly differ from that of other brands. Related campaigns emphasized that "Lucky's" would help consumers, especially women, their

• 53:32Robert Evans?

  new market, stay trim since they could 'reach for a Lucky instead of a sweet.' Along with these persistent health claims, a typical advertisement from 1930 boldly stated that "20,679 physicians say Lucky's are less irritating."

• 53:46Speaker 03

  Great.

• 53:48Robert Evans?

  Now, James, do you want to know how they'd gotten the information that Lucky's were seen as less irritating by doctors?

• 53:55Speaker 03

  Did they send them a packet of Lucky Strikes and also just a box of asbestos?

• 54:00Robert Evans?

  They sure did. Yeah, their advertising agency, Lloyd Thomas & Logan, sent cigarette cartons to physicians in 1926, 1927, and 1928, and then asked them to answer, "Are Lucky Strike cigarettes less irritating to tender throats than other cigarettes?" And the doctors were like, "Yeah, I want more free cigarettes, sure."

• 54:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, why do I want free cigarette box? Cool, I'll take that one. Great, good. That's how science is done.

• 54:25Robert Evans?

  That is how science is done.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 54:27Robert Evans?

  Now, touting the toasting process in the accompanying cover letter, advertising executive Thomas Logan pointed out the virtues of Lucky Strikes and claimed that they had, quote, "heard from a good many people that they could smoke Lucky Strikes with perfect comfort to their throats." American Tobacco used doctors' responses to this survey in order to, like, push the claim that Lucky Strikes are less irritating. The toasting, as they explained, is, quote, "your throat protection against irritation, against cough." Thank God, thank God they figured out toasting. Otherwise, these cigarettes might really hurt people.

• 54:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, you gotta toast them. That's how you just pop a couple cigarettes in your toaster?

• 55:03Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 55:04Speaker 03

  In the morning? And yeah, no cancer for you.

• 55:08Robert Evans?

  So self self reported adult smoking peaked in the early 1950s at about 45% of the population. Big tobacco's ploy to buy up doctors had worked for a while, but in late 1953, the first irrefutable studies linking lung cancer to tobacco use were published to tremendous public interest. Major peer reviewed journals studies had tied not just cancer, but cardiac disease and serious respiratory illness to smoking. The situation was serious enough that the head executives of the big five tobacco companies all came together in December of 1953 to figure out how to respond to this news. They picked the Plaza Hotel in New York City as the place to map out their strategy, and it is possible that no other location in the United States, including the Pentagon,

• 55:51Robert Evans?

  has been used to make plans that ended with a greater death toll. The master of the moment was John W. Hill, president of the biggest PR firm in the country, Hill & Knowlton. Now, John had been born in Indiana in 1890. He'd spent most of his early career working as a journalist. He's a journalist for 18 years, working his way up the ladder to become an editor and a popular columnist. In 1927, he blazed a trail that generations of soulless hacks would follow, and he decided to start a PR firm. By the time 1953 rolled around, it was the largest PR firm on the planet. Hill was worth the money, and in that hotel conference room, he laid out the bones of what would be known as Plan White Coat. The basic idea was to create an industry sponsored research entity, a think tank of

• 56:35Robert Evans?

  scientists funded by tobacco money, but ostensibly independent. This would allow big tobacco to claim they were taking fears of lung cancer seriously, while also providing them with disinformation to muddy the waters by painting the existing studies as insufficient. I'm going to quote, yeah, it's awesome. It's so good. And no one's ever done it since. No one, this is not, this is not the thing that's going to end all life on this planet. No, Hill did not just build the apocalypse bomb.

• 57:02Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, Jesus Christ. Yeah. Well, they've given us everything from Pokemon cards to fucking time it changed.

• 57:07Robert Evans?

  It's incredible. Cigarettes are amazing, James.

• 57:11Speaker 03

  Wow. Yeah, they are something.

• 57:14Robert Evans?

  One of the single most important inventions in the history of the planet.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, God. And people die of starvation, you know, and here we are. We've made a cancer stick and we've created new and exciting ways to lie about it.

• 57:27Robert Evans?

  It's amazing. It's so cool.

• 57:30Speaker 03

  Capitalism, who can fault it?

• 57:32Robert Evans?

  God, what a great product. I'm going to quote now from a 2012 article in the American Journal of Public Health. "The industry had supported some individual research in recent years, but Hill's proposal offered the potential of a research program that would be controlled by the industry, yet promoted as independent. This was a public relations masterstroke. Hill understood that simply giving..." Yeah. "Hill understood that simply giving money to scientists through the National Institutes of Health or some other entity, for example, offered little opportunity to shape the public relations environment. However, offering funds directly to university-based scientists would enlist their support and dependence. Moreover, it would have the added benefit of making academic institutions partners with the tobacco industry in its moment of crisis." "Hill and his clients had no interest..." Yeah.

• 58:18Robert Evans?

  "Hill and his clients had no interest in answering a scientific question. Their goal was to maintain vigorous control over the research program, to use science in the service of public relations. Although the tobacco executives had proposed forming a cigarette information committee dedicated to defending smoking against the medical findings, Hill argued aggressively for adding research to the committee's title and agenda. It is believed," he wrote, "that the word 'research' is needed in the name to give weight and added credence to the committee's statements. Hill understood that his client should be viewed as embracing the science rather than dismissing it." Now, again, Hill's a journalist, right? That's part of how he's able to do this. He understands how to communicate. He understands how people read things.

• 58:59Robert Evans?

  One of the first things he emphasized to the industry leaders was that they had to stop competing with each other, trying to move cartons by convincing customers that their smokes were more soothing or healthier than the others. This was bad, right? Arguing like Lucky Strikes are healthier than Marlboros is bad for the whole industry, so we have to stop it. The key to surviving this, Hill told them, was collective action, and one that looked like a commitment to public welfare while actually doing everything possible to harm public welfare. The Tobacco Industry Research Committee was formed in 1954 and announced its existence with full-page ads in more than 400 newspapers. This ad, known as the Frank Statement, claimed that tobacco companies were deeply concerned about the welfare of their customers and would pursue any end to get to the bottom of this whole

• 59:44Robert Evans?

  "tobacco equals cancer" thing. Quote, "We accept an interest in people's health as a basic responsibility, paramount to every other consideration in our business. We believe the products we make are not injurious to health. We always have and always will cooperate closely with those whose task it is to safeguard the public health."

• 1:00:03Robert Evans?

  That's good.

• 1:00:04Speaker 03

  Great, yeah, sure, very honest, very straightforward.

• 1:00:07Robert Evans?

  So despite these high-minded claims, the TIRC's agenda was laid out by Hill before he consulted a single scientist. The executive director of the organization, W.T. Hoyt, had no scientific background. His previous job had been selling ads for the Saturday Evening Post. Within his first few months of operation, Hoyt and other executives of the TIRC put out a statement directly responding to studies that purported to show a link between cigarettes and disease. "It is an obligation of the Tobacco Industry Research Committee at this time to remind the public of these essential points. One, there is no conclusive scientific proof of a link between smoking and cancer. Two, medical research points to many possible causes of cancer. And three, the millions of people who derive pleasure and satisfaction from smoking can be reassured that every scientific

• 1:00:52Robert Evans?

  means will be used to get all the facts as soon as possible."

• 1:00:57Speaker 03

  Great.

• 1:00:58Robert Evans?

  Yeah, this is gonna go well, James. It's gonna go really well.

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, I can see this ending well.

• 1:01:02Robert Evans?

  So the first scientific director appointed to the TIRC was Clarence Cook-Little, an extremely prominent biologist and geneticist who had become extremely prominent because he was a popular eugenicist.

• 1:01:14Speaker 03

  Oh, good.

• 1:01:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:16Speaker 03

  Fucking magnificent.

• 1:01:20Robert Evans?

  It's really funny because Cook, like a little, the reason he believes that cigarettes, because he's a, he truly believes that the people who connect them to cancer is wrong, because he believes that lung cancer is genetic. So it can't be caused by an environmental factor like inhaling 4,500 cigarettes a year. It's gotta be, it's gotta be something to do with the fact that certain races are more likely to get cancer.

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 1:01:45Robert Evans?

  It is, you, one thing I'll have to, you gotta say, for a racist, this guy probably killed more white people than any other racist.

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Robert Evans?

  He does drop a lot of white folks.

• 1:01:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, accidentally based.

• 1:02:00Robert Evans?

  Well, he drops everyone else, too.

• 1:02:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, true, maybe not.

• 1:02:03Robert Evans?

  Unlike him, cigarettes don't discriminate.

• 1:02:08Speaker 03

  Oh, dear. God, they really have become a magnet for the shittest things in humanity.

• 1:02:12Robert Evans?

  It is incredible how many terrible, yeah, it's, it's amazing.

• 1:02:16Speaker 03

  What's gonna happen next? They're gonna like to stand with the turfs or something?

• 1:02:20Robert Evans?

  Cigarettes. We just don't like queer people.

• 1:02:25Speaker 03

  Okay, I tell you, it's probably in a Harry Potter book somewhere.

• 1:02:28Robert Evans?

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 1:02:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:29Robert Evans?

  In 1954, the TIRC's budget was around a million dollars, nearly all of which went to Hill and Knowlton and various ads rather than actual science. But by 1963, the TIRC was giving out close to a million dollars in grants. These funded research, actual scientific research, but they picked the kind of research carefully. So we're not gonna do research into what causes lung cancer, but we'll do research into how cancer develops over time and how it grows in the body and ways to fight it and stuff. And this is important stuff, so they can keep coming out with these studies funded by TIRC money that are real studies, but none of them happen to look into whether or not smoking causes cancer, right? You can look at how genetics or virology impacts cancer rates, and those are important

• 1:03:13Robert Evans?

  things to study, but by picking what gets funded specifically, they are very, very purposefully drawing attention away.

• 1:03:21Speaker 03

  Putting better airbags in the no brakes model of our car.

• 1:03:26Robert Evans?

  So this strategy worked for decades, distracting the public and lawmakers from any actions that might negatively impact the rate at which people smoked. Key to the success of this program was Hill's understanding of how journalism worked. From that Journal of Public Health article, Hill understood that the success of any public relations strategy was highly dependent on face-to-face interpersonal relations with important media outlets. Each time the TIRC issued a press release, the Hill & Knowlton organization would initiate a personal contact. The firm systematically documented the courtship of newspapers and magazines, where it could urge balance and fairness in the industry. In these entreaties on behalf of the industry, the firm staffers repeated several key themes. First, they would note that the industry completely understood its important public responsibilities.

• 1:04:10Robert Evans?

  Second, they would affirm that the industry was deeply committed to investigating all of the scientific questions relevant to resolving the controversy. Third, they urged skepticism regarding statistical studies. Finally, they offered members of the media a long list of independent skeptics to consult to ensure balance in their presentations.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  Great. So he's also responsible for the dozens of direct marketing emails I get every single day. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Right now, I'm personally agreeing for this motherfucker.

• 1:04:39Robert Evans?

  Cigarettes created everything.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:04:42Robert Evans?

  The primary independent skeptic, of course, was the TIRC's little. That's the eugenics guy.

• 1:04:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:47Robert Evans?

  Given the penchant of the press for controversy and its often naive notion of balance, these appeals were remarkably successful. Hill & Knowlton expertly broadcast their arguments, typically not based on substantive research of any kind, of a small group of skeptics, as if their positions represented a dominant perspective on the medical science of the cigarette. In this sense, the public relations campaign advantaged two critical pieces of mid-century media practice. First, journalists favored reporting on controversy. Second, by providing opposing positions as if they were equal, they affirmed their commitment to balance. Yeah. Ah, yeah, that's right, baby. That's right, baby.

• 1:05:22Speaker 03

  For fuck's sake. Why? Piss off.

• 1:05:25Robert Evans?

  Uh huh.

• 1:05:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, they've invented both sides in it.

• 1:05:28Robert Evans?

  They did invent both sides in it.

• 1:05:30Speaker 03

  So they gave us Donald Trump is what you're telling me.

• 1:05:33Robert Evans?

  They gave us Donald Trump. They gave us climate change denial. They gave us a fucking lot of the gun industries.

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  Barry Weiss.

• 1:05:40Robert Evans?

  Tactics. Barry Weiss. All of that shit comes from Big Tobacco.

• 1:05:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. God.

• 1:05:44Robert Evans?

  They gave us, they gave us the fucking Iraq War. All of these, all of these strategies are the things that like were like, they pioneered all of those strategies. And that's where we're going to end for the day, James.

• 1:05:56Speaker 03

  Um, yeah.

• 1:05:57Robert Evans?

  There's, yeah.

• 1:05:58Speaker 03

  No, let's stop. I've become enraged.

• 1:06:01Robert Evans?

  We will, we will talk in more detail about the tobacco industry later. Um, but yeah, this is, this is how they like, there's a bigger story in kind of how they kept this up as it became increasingly obvious that cigarettes caused cancer and like how they advertised to children in like the nineties and stuff and Joe Camel. There's a story in like how they tried to destroy the lives of people who, who blew the whistle on them, like former tobacco employees. Um, and we'll talk about all of those one day, but this is, this is the story of how tobacco invented everything in the modern world.

• 1:06:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, great. I feel really good about all the things that we've got from it.

• 1:06:41Robert Evans?

  It's cool that you can tie like Funko Pops, climate change denial and the Iraq war, all to trying to get people to smoke.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. It's really, it's really great. And capitalism, and that's nothing but good.

• 1:06:55Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Pokemon and medical patents. All, all have cigarettes to thank.

• 1:07:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. God. Yeah. It's just unfathomable. It's terrible. It's fucking awful.

• 1:07:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:05Speaker 03

  Uh, it's, it's the nature of the system we live in. Maybe change it.

• 1:07:10Robert Evans?

  It's the nature of the system we live in part because of cigarettes.

• 1:07:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Great. Good. Maybe, maybe consider a different system.

• 1:07:18Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Maybe consider a system in which it's not possible to do this.

• 1:07:21Speaker 03

  The good thing is, Robert, that none of these issues are tied to vaping, which is fine. Uh, and totally, totally normal and good. And therefore you should just get a Fruit Loop vape.

• 1:07:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Get, get a flavored vape. Um, you know, buy some of that, uh, uh, I don't know what, what else, what other, what drugs do kids like to do today? Uh, get some, get some of that, get some of that flavored fentanyl, Tide Pods. Mix your fentanyl and your Tide Pods together, kids. Have a good one.

• 1:07:47Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. That's, I'm turning that on, taking the talk right now, from what I understand.

• 1:07:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Tik Tok, another thing that probably doesn't have health consequences.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  James, is there anything you'd like to plug?

• 1:07:57Speaker 03

  Ah, apart from Tide Pods. Yeah, let's think, yeah, we talked about a podcast. I've written a book. It's called The Popular Front and the 1936 Barcelona Olympics. You can probably find it at the library. Then you won't be helping to create the system which gave us, you know, Pokemon cards and everyone having cancer.

• 1:08:16Speaker 03

  And yeah, you can find me on Twitter. It's just my name, James like Bond, Stout Light the Beer. Well, that's all. Anachism is the other thing I always like to plug on podcasts. So maybe yeah, re Kripokin.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  And we're doing a Nick Could Happen Here livestream virtual show on October 26.

• 1:08:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah, motherfuckers.

• 1:08:34Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:08:35Robert Evans?

  So pick up a pack of Lucky Strikes. I want to see all of you beautiful people smoking when we do our live show. Just, just really burn them down. Nothing raises the value of a house faster than smoking cigarettes.

• 1:08:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  Robert.

• 1:08:53Speaker 03

  Bring, go back to, return to tradition by sticking two cigarettes up your nose and smoking them that way.

• 1:08:58Robert Evans?

  Yeah, smoke your cigarettes the traditional way.

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  Anyways.

• 1:09:03Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzone media.com, or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards.

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