113: Into the Mind of a Working K9 Warrior With Mike Ritland

0:00:00 - Opening 0:03:01 - Who is Mike Ritland? Iowa, swimming, and the Teams. 0:50:46 - Dog handling and training and psychology. 2:33:55 - Closing thoughts and take-aways. 2:36:04 - Support: JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, Super Krill Oil and Joint Warfare and Discipline Pre-Mission http://originmaine.com/origin-labs/jocko/, THE MUSTER 005 in DC http://www.extremeownership.com/washington-dc-005. Origin Brand Apparel and Jocko Gi http://www.originmaine.com, withJocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com, Onnit Fitness stuff, http://www.onnit.com/jocko and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, http://amzn.to/2szgaEj and Jocko Soap. https://irishoaksranch.com/storefront/jocko-soap 3:04:56 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 113 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  I instantly lifted my M4 as my eyes scanned the terrain above us. I knew without looking that John and the other guys were moving as soon as my weapon came up. Reno took off at a dead sprint and disappeared 20 feet to our left. Seconds afterward screams came from the area. I moved forward scanning the environment as I moved wanting to come to Reno's aid as soon as possible but unwilling to leave behind my tactical sense. I heard three shots ring out as a Taliban fighter tried to exit the shallow cut that they had been hiding in. His companion was locked in a fight with Reno. The dog was destroying his opponent, blood quickly covering the man's clothes.

• 0:55Jocko Willink?

  I called Reno out of the fight and squeezed off several rounds as the man reached for his weapon. We quickly searched the area before moving on, our pace even quicker than before. The gunfire for sure had given away our position. Legs and lungs burned, the elevation taking its toll as we finally reached our destination. Sitting on the edge of that mountain, waiting for a ride, I looked back at the last few hours. I patted Reno's head. Twice tonight he had saved my life, twice I owed him yet another debt of gratitude. His body shivered slightly as the cold wind bit into him. Now that we weren't moving, the cold settled quickly.

• 1:40Jocko Willink?

  I pulled off my coat and wrapped him in it, pulling his body against mine to keep him warm.

• 1:47Jocko Willink?

  Tonight he had saved my life. Tonight he had saved my brother's lives.

• 1:56Jocko Willink?

  And that is a little excerpt from the book Trident Canine Warriors. My Tale From The Training Ground To The Battlefield With Elite Navy SEAL Canines. By Mike Ritland. A SEAL who ended up working with dogs, training dogs, and eventually starting a company called Tricos International that trains dogs for, for the most elite forces in the world. And that was an excerpt that was from an operator talking about one of the dogs that Mike had trained. And Mike's written two other books besides Trident Canine Warriors.

• 2:39Jocko Willink?

  He also wrote Team Dog and Navy SEAL Dogs, which is a book aimed at teenagers. And tonight, we are lucky enough to have Mike with us on the podcast to talk about how the hell he ended up doing what he is doing. So Mike Ritland, welcome aboard.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  It's a, both a pleasure and an honor to be here. I appreciate you having me.

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  So, we always have to start where you started. Tell us a little bit about Waterloo, Iowa.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Well, it's a, you know, it's one of those, one of those spots where I guess it's, it's a good place to be from. Uh, not a whole lot happening in Iowa, which, uh, honestly is why, part of the reason why I got into dogs, because there, there's not a whole lot else going on. Uh, wrestling, obviously, is huge in Iowa. And I had the, uh, the, the pleasure of growing up during the Gable era of Iowa wrestling. And my dad wrestled with Dan Gable in high school. And so, you know, being kind of ingrained in that culture growing up, uh, even though I never wrestled because he, uh, he can hardly walk and is so beat up from it. He, he swam and so all of us swam. Long story short, it was still a big part of my life.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  But, uh, so I, you know, growing up, kind of having that mentality ingrained, um, you know, was, was a big, big proponent of, of where I'm at today and, and why I got involved in both the Navy and in dogs because of the appreciation for, uh, you know, for that mentality. Um, in terms of Waterloo, it's a, you know, suburban town, 70,000 people. I'd say lower middle class probably. A lot of influence from Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis. Pretty, pretty rough high school growing up there. It wasn't, wasn't the best of times for me, but taught me a lot of hard lessons about perseverance and doing things

• 4:35Speaker 01

  even when you don't want to do them and, and facing things that you're not, not willing to, to be comfortable with facing and, and things of that nature. And, and I was on the swim team and, and influenced by my grandfathers in terms of their service in World War II. And, and I just always wanted to make a, an impact in terms of serving my country. I know I'm a little younger than you, but for me, I was in junior high when the first Gulf War broke out and it scared, scared the crap out of me. Couple of years later, I was like, where do I sign up? Like, you know, that, that progression, you know, just in that couple of year period is just crazy. But, but it, you know, those, those experiences and seeing some, some terrorist activity as a young kid growing up, it really, really

• 5:19Speaker 01

  shaped no different than, than how it shapes, you know, the guys we're constantly going against in the, in the generations growing up, which has a huge impact. But from a recruiting standpoint, but, but yeah, I mean, it was just, it was something that, blue collar town, patriotic, grandfathers were, were pipe hitters in the, in the World War II and, What'd they do in World War II? So my, my mom's dad was on a minesweeper in the Navy. He was a cook. He was straight out of, you know, Navy, Steven Seagal, just a cook. But he was just a cook. But he, he was on a fleet of minesweepers. He was 98 in the fleet in the Mediterranean and two of them came back and he was on one of them. My dad's dad was in the army. He actually just tells you how times have changed. He, he beat an, an English allied soldier to

• 6:04Speaker 01

  death in a bar fight somewhere in Europe during the war and they just sent him home and discharged him. You know, but I didn't, I didn't know him real well. I met him a couple of times. He, he had a pretty rough, rough go, you know, after, after the war and, and was basically an alcoholic and I only saw him. Through four times, maybe growing up before he died, but, uh, but my mom's dad was a huge influence, you know, I talked with him a lot about, I was always fascinated by, um, you know, his stories and, and his outlook and, and, uh, just, you know, he wasn't, wasn't, uh, you know, aversive to talking about it, uh, enjoyed talking about it, but, uh, yeah, just, it was very inspiring and it just made me want to serve, uh, you know, I've, I've

• 6:46Speaker 01

  kind of always, uh, leveraged my decisions in life on how I'm going to make the most bang for my buck and get the most out of every decision and I felt like, uh, you know, it was, it was my, my turn to, to, you know, carry the torch for a little bit.

• 7:01Jocko Willink?

  How'd you hear about the teams?

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Uh, it was a Popular Mechanics article, uh, that I read when I was in like ninth grade, uh, and, uh, it was the first time I'd ever heard of it, uh, and it showed, you know, like, you know, to me, like, one, one of the things that I think recruits a lot of us is saying that it's, it's actually the toughest military training, people are by default, well, I'm gonna go do that then.

• 7:21Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Uh, so that was part of it, um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I read that, that and, and that was at a time when I was getting, you know, I, I got, uh, got rolled up pretty hard a few times in high school, got jumped.

• 7:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you were talking about that in your first book.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:36Jocko Willink?

  You got rolled up a couple of times and beat down.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, I was, I was a runt in high school, like my freshman year, I was five-four, a hundred and five pounds.

• 7:44Jocko Willink?

  That's fun.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Uh, and then that was when it happened, you know, uh, juniors and seniors just, you know, waylaying on me and, uh, you know, I didn't, I didn't have much of a chance there, but, uh, you know, and even when I graduated, I was the same height I am now and I weighed one forty, you know, so when I, my first, uh, first ID in the Navy, I was one forty-five, I'm five-eleven, you know, so, uh, yeah, I've put on a few pounds.

• 8:08Jocko Willink?

  So, did you, did you do Die-Fair program or anything like that?

• 8:11Speaker 01

  I didn't, I, uh, when I, I originally tried to be a corpsman and, uh, at that time, this was ninety-six, they're like, yeah, we're pretty heavy on corpsmen, pick something else, and I was like, how about intel specialist, you know, so I, I went to ISA school right out of boot camp and I, when I graduated high school, I was seventeen still, so I had to wait until I turned eighteen to go to boot camp, uh, so I went to boot camp in August, uh, ISA school and then checked into BUDS, uh, in spring of, of ninety-seven, but I was the youngest, youngest guy in the class and a whole, a whole deal.

• 8:42Jocko Willink?

  And what did you weigh then?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Uh, I worked out pretty heavy in A school. I got up to about one fifty-five, I think. So, yeah, I mean, I, yeah, I mean, I see pictures of, uh, like, you know, post hell week and first phase, like, I look like I just broke out of Oshwood.

• 8:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  I mean, there's nothing to me, you know, but, um.

• 9:01Jocko Willink?

  I weighed one seventy-five when I showed up.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Same night?

• 9:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, five eleven, one seventy-five, and I weighed one eighty-five when I graduated. Cause I put on ten pounds.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did the same. I weighed one sixty-five.

• 9:11Jocko Willink?

  I think if you're a little bit scraw- cause I was like a scrawny. I know one seventy-five might not sound scrawny, but I wasn't, I was, it was pretty scrawny, one seventy-five. And then they, they put a little meat on the bones, as they say. Cause you can eat whatever. I would order a Domino's cheese pizza, extra cheese pizza, just about every night.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I had a same, similar ritual. You remember the country store?

• 9:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Uh, so at the end of every day after dinner, I would go to the country store and there was that little McDonald's next to it.

• 9:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, you'd get some of that.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  I'd get a quarter pounder with cheese value meal, um, and eat that and, uh, a box, literally a box of ten, uh, oatmeal cream pies. And, uh, and a sixty-four ounce leaded Gatorade every night.

• 9:54Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  And wolfed it down, no problem, you know, and I gained like eight pounds.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  The, the thing is, and I was telling somebody about this, you know, you run to Chow and back. Every, every meal, you run to Chow. It's a mile there and it's a mile back.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:06Jocko Willink?

  And you go three or four times a day for, cause sometimes you go at midnight. So that means you're running between six and eight miles every day before you even include any of the actual training. So you're doing a lot of physical activity. You can eat a lot.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:22Jocko Willink?

  You can eat a ton.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Especially at that age, too.

• 10:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, that's right.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  And then you couple it with being cold most of the day.

• 10:28Jocko Willink?

  That's true. Yeah, you're burning. I wonder what you're burning for calories. It's a massive amount of calories.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  It's gotta be ten K plus, you know?

• 10:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I didn't even think about the cold part.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  Cause you are, you're just cold all the time, just hammering calories away. Um, so you get done with buds. And, and you, you were a swimmer, right?

• 10:46Speaker 01

  I was.

• 10:47Jocko Willink?

  So you're one of those people that I talk about, like swimming was, for you was just super easy?

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Actually, no. Uh, I got, I got rolled. Uh, I started with two fourteen. I got rolled six days before going to San Clemente Island for swims.

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  You loser. What's up with that?

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Well, so here's.

• 11:03Jocko Willink?

  How is that?

• 11:04Speaker 01

  I, I pinched my sciatic nerve at Laguna doing land naps.

• 11:07Jocko Willink?

  So you're not a loser.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  So then I just failed everything. But you know, it's kind of the, kind of a running joke. Like, no, I got rolled for swims. Cause it was the first thing that I, I failed three of. I failed everything after Laguna, cause I, with, with the injury, but. I, I will say that, um, because I grew up in Iowa, like, that my first time in the ocean was at Bud's. Like, I mean, I'd been knee-high water at Cocoa Beach on spring break or whatever, but I'd never been out past a surf. I'd never swam at night.

• 11:29Jocko Willink?

  Did it freak you out?

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Uh, a little bit. I mean, it was just kind of, it was like an over, over stimulus type thing, but, uh, for me, you know, not having a black line to look at, you know, and having a guide off the coast, um, you know, was, was a bit of a challenge, but the, for me, the biggest thing was actually swimming with fins.

• 11:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, you know what? That's a good point. That's a good point. People, it's a totally different muscle.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and you're, you know, from, from having swim, I mean, I grew up when I was from five until I graduated high school. I mean, I had, uh, partial scholarship offers, uh, you know, to some local colleges for, for swimming and. And, uh, you know, for me, it was, it came pretty natural. I mean, I was never a state champion, but I went to state and, and did all right. Um, but, you know, showing, so growing up with that muscle memory, uh, of how to swim without ever using fins. When I, the first time I put those on, those duck feet are like two by fours, you know? I mean, they just destroyed my ankles, especially being kind of scrawny in a way. So for the, for first phase, like my feet and ankles were just destroyed the whole time, you know? Like for me, it was hard to swim.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  And, I mean, I, I could pass, but I wasn't, I wasn't, uh, you know, the guys out in the front just turtle back and, you know, having fun.

• 12:41Jocko Willink?

  Who were those guys?

• 12:43Speaker 01

  I mean, there were some Olympic swimmers and water polo players.

• 12:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, see, I, I had a couple of those guys where I just thought these guys are just studs, but they were swimmers.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:52Jocko Willink?

  So that's why I figured you were breezing through the swims too.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I, you know, they didn't, they didn't bother me, you know, but I, I was middle of the road. I wasn't, I wasn't blowing anybody out of the water. I think for them, some of it is that, uh, you know, in Iowa, we were probably a little behind the power curve technology wise. Now they do use a lot of fins. Little cheater fins and training fins and stuff. And so there's, there's some more to it than that. Plus. The guys that I saw that did really well were more muscular than I was, you know. For me, it was like those fins were about a quarter of my body weight. You know, and it was literally, it was like having concrete shoes going for a jog. I mean, it was like, uh, yeah, it didn't do me any favors. It took some getting used to for sure.

• 13:29Jocko Willink?

  Runs and swims, I mean, what about the runs?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Runs, no problem either.

• 13:32Jocko Willink?

  No problem.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  You know, really, there was nothing that I, I would say that I struggled with. I wasn't the best at everything, but I, you know, I wasn't getting gooned either.

• 13:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  You know, I was kind of a gray man on purpose, which is the best place to be.

• 13:45Jocko Willink?

  One of my buddies, uh, he would say that they started the goon squad every single time with him.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:51Jocko Willink?

  Goon squad, if you're, if you're slow on a run and you're get to sort of the end and then there's an instructor waiting. And these, from this point on, you're getting gooned, which means you're gonna do a bunch of crap. And it's gonna suck. And this guy was the beginning of the goon squad every time, which is not fun.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:08Jocko Willink?

  So what year was it when you graduated BUDS?

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Uh, so it was, uh, spring of 98.

• 14:13Jocko Willink?

  And then you went to Team Three?

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I went to boot camp or, uh, Benning Jump School.

• 14:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Uh, back when they still did that and then, uh, and then from there, straight to Team Three. Uh, and then STT and, and I got my, did the chiefs board thing, which was, I wish they still did that.

• 14:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  You know, I think that's a sacrilege that they do it the way they do it now. But, um, yeah, I got, got my tried in in October of 98. Uh, waited until January to, uh, to jump into my first platoon. And that was an ARG Alpha platoon. So it was a 22 month workup with six months of Fleet X ship deployments prior to even deploying.

• 14:49Jocko Willink?

  I did two ARGs.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Back to back ARGs at Team One, parking the dirty.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  I think, I think they're valuable.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  What ship did you deploy on?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Uh, the Duluth.

• 14:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh, right on.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  LPD six.

• 14:59Jocko Willink?

  Yep. It's old. Oh, man, so that thing's from 1965 or 67 or something like that.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  It was in Vietnam.

• 15:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:05Jocko Willink?

  They, they, they built these ships, Echo, to take troops from here to Vietnam, drop them off. But then by the time we were on them, they were just doing full six month deployment. So it was straight up World War II style canvas racks. So little canvas racks, there'd be four people sleeping stacked up like four bunks.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:21Jocko Willink?

  With these little canvas racks. It was old school.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  But I will say this, I mean, the experiences in terms of big Navy, like you don't get those

• 15:29Jocko Willink?

  For sure.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  You know, and doing the Fleet X's, we were on the Abraham Lincoln and got to stand on the bridge watching F-14s land and take off and, you know, we got to do some pretty neat stuff that I'm glad, glad we got to be a part of.

• 15:42Jocko Willink?

  What was awesome for me was we were doing, because when you're, when you're with them, you're with the Marine Corps. And so we did all these operations in conjunction with the Marine Corps. So I was a comms guy. What were you?

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Intel guy.

• 15:55Jocko Willink?

  So I was a comms guy. So I was always interacting with all the other units that would be out there for communications and then coordinating and all that stuff. So I had a real leg up when it came to working with conventional forces, which if you were in a regular spec ops platoon back then, you wouldn't ever work with. I mean, you'd rarely, very rarely work with conventional forces. So I did two ARGs where I got to work with Marines and do massive, you know, battalion sized operations and had to coordinate all those things. It gave me a good introduction. You'd get, you'd get guys back in the teams back then. They wouldn't even know, they wouldn't even know, they wouldn't even understand what a Marine Corps battalion was, or, or what a company was, or what a platoon was.

• 16:39Jocko Willink?

  They just wouldn't know. Now everybody knows. We've gotten more professional as time has gone by. But that gave me a, I was real lucky that I had that ARG platoon experience.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, like I said, just getting, you know, kind of the, the big Navy perspective on a lot of things, I think is, is valuable, you know? And it was just neat from a, for me at least, from a tradition standpoint. I mean, because we, we did a, about a three week exercise in Australia where we tested out a fast catamaran that they were testing for, for us. Basically, the thought was, is this thing to do like 55 knots, you know? And it's the size of a, you know, it's bigger than like a guided missile cruiser. I mean, it's a medium sized ship with, you know, a hole in the middle as a cat. But...

• 17:25Speaker 01

  So the, the, the thought process was we could deploy like a, a whole task element, or at least a platoon.

• 17:30Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  I don't know if you remember the, I think they were with the Hurricane class or whatever, those little.

• 17:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  N S W amphibious boats that was kind of the same principle and they, they canned it after a while, but, um, same kind of principle is that, but these things do 55 knots and it was weird, you know, we're out floating around testing these things out, doing, uh, some, some exercises with some, uh, Norforce Australian guys and it, it wa- it was more like being on a plane than a boat in terms of the, the way it felt, like when you're trying to sleeve or whatever, I mean, imagine a boat that big doing 55 knots.

• 18:01Jocko Willink?

  That's crazy.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 18:03Jocko Willink?

  That's completely crazy.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you could put everything, you know, you could do a full task element loadout on it, be completely self-sustained and go 55 knots anywhere in the world, you know, so it, it certainly had some, some potential, but, uh, obviously we never ended up doing them, but, or getting them or implementing them, but.

• 18:18Jocko Willink?

  So how many deployments did you do before the war kicked off?

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Just that one.

• 18:22Jocko Willink?

  So that was because it took so long, it's 22 month workup, then you did a six month deployment.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:28Jocko Willink?

  Then you come back from that.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Well, so, yeah, the, the, the, kind of the, the raw deal that, uh, I mean, I guess couldn't call it a raw deal, but for me, so we got back in, uh, February of 2001, mid February and, uh, because it was right in the middle of Force 21 reorg.

• 18:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  So it was Team Three, their official Force 21 form up, uh, wasn't until January of oh two. So from February to January, the entire team was basically like on pro dev or, or whatever and, and, you know, I'd only done one platoon, so they're like, yeah, you're not going to freefall yet. Nah, we got two other guys going to sniper. It's like, you can go to hazmat.

• 19:07Jocko Willink?

  That's cool.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Awesome. How about, you can be a bus driver. Um, so I ended up actually going over to the CISM team, I don't know if you remember that.

• 19:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang, because you were a swimmer.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Navy pentathlon. And, you know, at Team Three, I was always, like, when we did run, swim, runs, you know, it was one thing being a little smaller at that time and, and being a good swimmer and a pretty decent runner, I, I could always get top three, top five at, at the team on, on any given day doing swims and runs and so, uh, I went over and tried out and, and made the team and, and competed and we were supposed to compete in Istanbul that summer. Did the whole, you know, trained for six months and, and busted my, my backside and then, uh... I pulled, I pulled or tore my groin. Um, and, uh, and I just, I, I couldn't, I couldn't get it healed in time. And so I ended up not, not being able to go compete,

• 19:57Speaker 01

  which really sucked. I was, I was looking forward to doing it, but it was a neat experience though. It was totally different. It was, you know, the first time in my life and the only time. It was like being a professional athlete, you know, we'd, we'd train for three, four hours in the morning and then swim for two and a half hours in the afternoon, do a Saturday long, long run or long practice. And that was it. The rest of the time.

• 20:16Jocko Willink?

  What does SISM stand for?

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Uh, it's, I mean, it's not even in English, I don't think. Um, it's a.

• 20:22Jocko Willink?

  But it's basically like military Olympics, kind of.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, it's the Navy Pentathlon. So it's.

• 20:28Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  So the, the, the events.

• 20:30Jocko Willink?

  What are the events?

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Uh, so it's a, an O course, but it's a totally different, you know, it's, it's a real squirrely O course and I don't even know.

• 20:37Jocko Willink?

  It's small, right? Isn't it small?

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. You just, it's really fast. Like it's one of the, everything.

• 20:41Jocko Willink?

  Sprint?

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, so there's that. There's, um, a, like a, I don't even know what they call it. It's like a naval traditional race thing where you're paddling a little boat and you go out around a dinghy and have to do shackles, whatever. Um.

• 20:56Jocko Willink?

  What's shackles?

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Well, like, like it's literally like you go around a buoy and, and have to take a shackle off and connect it to something else. Like it's.

• 21:04Jocko Willink?

  So there's a little.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Tradition.

• 21:05Jocko Willink?

  Little challenge.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, same thing with the underwater O course, which that, that one was pretty legit. Um, it's a hundred and twenty-five yard underwater obstacle course. Uh, and you got those big three foot, um, carbon fiber freedive fins on. So you're doing, I mean, it's like, you're like, why couldn't I have these in, in Buzz? Like you're thinking about combat swimmer. Like I'm going to steal some of these. But, uh, yeah, I mean, so I'd say 90% of that hundred and twenty-five yard race is underwater. You know, you, you only come up at the, at the end to blow out and take a breath like a, like a damn orca. You know, you're just like, you know, and go right back.

• 21:42Jocko Willink?

  Are you doing tasks underwater?

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So there's, there's a, like a cargo net with a hole at the bottom. You gotta, you know, and this is over the CTT in the 15 foot section. So you're going from the top down to the bottom and then back to the top at the other side. And so the only time you're taking a breath is at the end. And I will tell you from a physical standpoint, like that was one of the more taxing things I've ever done, because it's a race and it's technique and whatever, but so there's a cargo net, you gotta go under, you gotta swim a rubber M16 from one side to the next, holding it out of the water, but you're, you know, you're basically, your whole body's underwater with just the rifle out and you're streamlining and whatever. It's all technique stuff that you're, you know, whatever. And then you have to go down, you know, you go to one side, come back.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  So basically you swim the M16 across, you drop it, you swim all the way down through that hole, come back up, swim back down, back to the other side and undo this little like fire hose shackle thing and put it back together, come up and then sprint back to the other side, type of thing. And that was pretty, pretty challenging, but so there's that, and then there's a life-saving thing where you gotta do it, you know, save a dummy basically, but have to get out of your clothes and so like you're wearing these old Bud's greens and they're all like rigged so that you can get out of them, like literally you undo the pants, you know, and like it's this old technique thing, but you can go from having full greens on in the wa- taking them off in the water by doing like this porpoise backflip thing and you backflip out

• 23:10Speaker 01

  of them and then go save the guy and it's, it's really kinda dumb, honestly. Like it's all, like I feel ridiculous even sitting here explaining, like it sounds even more stupid here explaining it to you guys not knowing what it is, but, but yeah, so.

• 23:25Jocko Willink?

  So there was some underwater shit going on. That's basically what I'm hearing. So that thing, you can't go because you get injured and now, so shortly after you were supposed to compete, if that was supposed to be in the summer of 2001, September 11th goes down.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:39Jocko Willink?

  You get rolled back into a platoon at that point?

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Well, so I did a couple of intel schools, some secret scroll ones that were actually pretty awesome during that summer after I got hurt. And then I literally, in fact, one of them, I flew back the night before September 11th. On September 10th, I flew from, from DC to San Diego. I get home, September 11th happens, I'm on my, we were living in La Jolla at the time. I was on my way into SEAL Team 3, you know, getting ready to jump in a platoon when it happened and so obviously like with everybody, you know, all bets are off and figuring out what we're gonna do. There was an exercise in Jordan that they sent me on a couple of weeks later and they beefed it up pretty heavy, like it was gonna be a, you know, a minimal footprint, but after September 11th, they ended up sending way more people and a lot more resources.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  It kinda set it up almost like a. Like a, like a potential FOB if need be, you know, they had a couple of platoons worth of guys and, and you know, people with experience and brought real stuff and you know, kind of a contingent if, if need be, you know, nothing, we didn't end up doing anything, but, uh, but we spent actually almost two months over there. Right after September 11th is almost like a mini deployment, you know, uh, but, got back from that, jumped into my platoon in January and then it was, you know, full speed ahead, like, I mean, not, I know you were saying way, it's not that you weren't training for war before, but there was definitely a repurposing.

• 25:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And then you, you, you deployed, you did the, you did the oil rigs, right?

• 25:05Speaker 01

  I did. So, you know, we're just kind of, you know, lucky, luck of the draw, I guess, you know, we, uh, we were originally slated to be a, um, a PECOM platoon. Uh, we're gonna go to Guam and, and when we did, but, uh, you know, so I, I actually re-enlisted to, to go to Arabic school and, uh, at DLI, uh, that was one of my things. I wanted to learn Arabic and, uh, so they, they, they were supposed to honor that. And then we got re-slated as a PECOM platoon. Like, no, you're going to learn Tagalog instead. Congratulations. It was like, you gotta be kidding me.

• 25:36Jocko Willink?

  So you speak Tagalog?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Well, I wouldn't say I speak it.

• 25:38Jocko Willink?

  You learned it?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, not at DLI. They, so they, you know, in, in true Navy fashion, it's like, you're not going to Arabic, you're not going to DLI, you're learning Tagalog and it's gonna be at North Island for three months straight, you know, so, uh, it's not the same, you know? But, uh, yeah, I mean, I can carry on a basic conversation with it, but, uh, so anyway, we go to, go to Guam. This is like October of, of oh two. And, uh,

• 26:02Speaker 01

  and then, you know, we're, we did the, the standard PECOM deployment, but towards the end of the year, they basically, you know, the writing was on the wall, like Iraq's gonna kick off. So Team Five came and backfilled us and I'll tell you, I, I don't know that they could have been any more pissed.

• 26:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  You know, like our turnover party almost was nine fistfights, you know, like, but they were pretty salty about it. I don't blame them, but. So they had to come take our place and finish out our PACOM deployment so we could go to Kuwait.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  Wow, those guys must have been pissed.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  They were beyond pissed.

• 26:32Jocko Willink?

  There's, there's a feeling that we won't be able to replicate for a long time, which is guys that had never been to war. The desire that you had to, to go, because you think you're only going to get like one mission. Everyone at that time, you're like thinking if you get to do some kind of real mission, you'll be just completely, your life will be complete. And you think if you don't get to do that, you're never, then opportunity is never going to get there. And, and so that's why I can't even imagine what was going through those guys' heads at the time.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like I said, they, they had that exact just pit in their stomach, like we're this close and you guys, you know, you've already been here. Like, and we, it was kind of the best of both worlds because, you know, we went to the Philippines for a while, which that, that was nice speaking to Gog. We were there for a month. And then we went to Singapore for a while. We, you know, hit Thailand. I mean, it was a good, good PACOM deployment. Spent some time in Guam. Went to Hawaii and did like a three week exercise around Christmas. Uh, you know, and then, uh, but yeah, so, you know, come late January, they're like, you know, they fly in all of our desert stuff. And we're totally repurposing all of our, our crap. And, uh, and then, yeah, we flew through Thailand, landed in Kuwait,

• 27:43Speaker 01

  set up shop at Kuwaiti Naval Base for about six weeks while we're getting ready. And, and so during that time, the, uh, the oil rig intel, me being the intel rep, like I was sourcing intel from a lot of different sources. And they, they weren't very well corroborated. Like some of them, it was kind of like on one end of the spectrum, it was like, yeah, it's not that big a deal. And then on the other one, it was like, dude, this is a suicide mission, you know, and everything in between. And so, uh, it was a little, little bit, uh, nerve wracking, uh, because it bounced around a lot. It was like, you know, there's, there's nobody on board. And then it's like, wow, there's four guys and, you know, we saw a couple of AKs. And next thing you know, it's like, yeah, there's 115 people and they're all suicide vested up. And, you know, they're going to clack off when you guys step on, you know, it was just.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  And it just like I said bounced around, but during that time, like all we did was CQC and we built actually a full-scale mock-up. Now, mind you, this target was 1,600 meters long. I mean, it took us seven hours to take it down. And, but, you know, SDV did a recon on it beforehand. When you say you built a full mock-up, what do you mean? I mean, I say that, you know, we didn't have the funds of some of the other units to do that stuff with, but it was basically, size-wise, we laid out like- Like with tape? Like we'd normally do. Yeah, like wood stakes and twine. Yeah. But just to know like, hey, this is legitimately how long it is to give you a real idea, because, you know, so there was birthing at one end, and that's where we

• 29:11Speaker 01

  hit it at the beginning, because it was the middle of the night, that's where they all were. And so we took, took, there was 32, 32 prisoners, without, without, really, any real issue. Breached a bunch of doors and took down the whole birthing and then swept the whole rest of the thing from one end to the next. And, like I said, it took, took all night. But, so yeah, we did that and then came back from that. And, and then from there, just, it was basically, hey, you know, everybody load up, the war's kicking off. And the one thing I will say that was really neat about that mission, though, is that it was the entire team. And I think to this day, it's still the largest single, in terms

• 29:54Speaker 01

  of, you know, participants, special operations mission in NSW history, is because it was the entire team. And the coordination effort, because there was a manifold metering station on the beach, and then there's 26 miles of pipeline that were 48-inch pipes, you know, there was like 30 Exxon LBS worth of oil in these, just in the pipelines. And the worry was, and the reason we had to coordinate it was that, you know, the manifold metering station, there's people manning that, there's people on the, on the oil rig and all that pipeline. If they blow that, like, it's going to destroy the whole Gulf. Yeah. And it will be the- 48-inch pipes. Yeah. Dang. Yeah, I mean, you'd walk around in them. That's crazy.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  And there was like four of them, you know, so, but yeah, so basically, we had to coordinate with-

• 30:43Speaker 01

  And we actually had an SDV platoon with us. So it was us and an SDV1 platoon that hit the, there was two different oil rigs. There was the Maybot and KOT, the Mina Al Bakr oil terminal, and then the Khor Al Amaya oil terminal. The KOT one, or KOT, the Grom guys took down. There was nobody on that. And then we took down the one with, you know, with all the people on it. But we had to coordinate it, basically time it exact with the other four platoons from Team Three, one of which was a DPV platoon when they were still using it. I think that's probably the mission where they decided to can the program because they were terrible. They all got stuck and it was a mess. But, you know, so they met some resistance there.

• 31:28Jocko Willink?

  Just echo that a DPV is like a...

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Desert Patrol.

• 31:31Jocko Willink?

  It's a desert patrol vehicle, but it looks like...

• 31:34Speaker 01

  A dune buggy.

• 31:35Jocko Willink?

  Like a dune buggy. And they, and well, actually it looks even super cooler than dune buggy because they got big like guns. When you're a kid and you see that thing, it's your ultimate fantasy in life coming true to see this badass dune buggy with guns all over it, rockets on it. And you think, oh, this is, if you would have seen those when you were, you know, 13 years old, you'd say whoever, whatever I gotta do in my life to drive that thing is what I'm gonna do. The problem was they're, they're real specific and finicky and, and...

• 32:04Speaker 01

  They get stuck. That's the bottom line. It's like, I mean, they're worse than Humvees. Yeah. So they took that down and we timed it basically where, you know, it was a simultaneous hit or staggered by, you know, 10 seconds. But, so that, you know, the worry was that if we took it down too early, then they would know and blow the pipes.

• 32:25Jocko Willink?

  Just blow the pipes, yeah.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  And vice versa. So, so yeah, we had to, had to coordinate it pretty, pretty spot on. But, but we pulled it off. They managed to take out a few guys on the manifold side. We didn't have any, any real resistance. No shots fired other than breaching doors on our end, but... So we rendezvous back at Kuwaiti Naval Base and then we jetted up to Ali Asaleem Air Force Base in northern Kuwait and then spent the next few days just loading four Humvees out. And again, this was the start of the war. We actually only had three and we ended up, we snaked one from the Air Force. I don't even know if I should say it, I'm gonna say it anyway, but there was a green, green Humvee that a couple of our guys walked over to

• 33:09Speaker 01

  a parking lot and stole it and brought it, brought it over and we spent one night literally with two cans of Tan's paint and a paintbrush and just painted it with Tan. And then these were soft doors. You know, we had extra crappy body armor that we'd hang in the doors to try to, you know, give us some protection, whatever. And yeah, we just were like, well, we're loading up. We did have a guy, it was his first platoon and he was, he kinda lost his, uh, lost his marbles on the, on the hit. Like he was, he was rattled to the point where, you know, he basically gave up and, and hung it up, didn't come with us. He was a sixty gunner and so, yeah, we had a, had an intel guy at the time that was not a team guy that is now, um, that jumped in a spot basically. You talk about like, old school,

• 33:54Speaker 01

  like, I know they wouldn't, they wouldn't let that stuff happen now. It's basically like, here's, here's a, here's a sixty, you know?

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  Man up.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, sit in the door and whatever.

• 34:03Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's cool. That's also interesting. You know, people always, it's one of those kinda myths or, or misconceptions where people think that everyone that's a SEAL is like a hundred percent. And there you go. You got a guy that did one operation and said, I'm not going any further.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  I remember, uh, I think there was a couple of guys on the west coast that, that turned their birds in after nine eleven, you know? They're like, I didn't sign up for this. Like, what did you sign up for? You know, but, um, yeah, I mean, and, and there was a couple instances too where, uh, you know, you'd, you'd find out things about guys that, just like being a BUDS instructor, um, don't ever count anybody out, don't ever bet on anybody, you know? Cause there, there's people that'll surprise you both ways.

• 34:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I always feel like, somebody was asking me that the other day. I always feel like you can, you can get an indication, right? Like you go, oh, you know what? This guy is pretty hardcore. You know, I, I'd go, I'd go eighty percent, you know, maybe ninety percent. And you think, oh, this guy's pretty weak. I'd go eighty percent, ninety percent. But there's, like you said, there's outliers or there's people that you just think, what the, what, what just happened to that guy? And it's another thing I'm had to, I'm having to contend with now as I get a little bit older is the fact that even though I'm all about human nature and all this stuff and like I really want to understand people, sometimes I just look at them like I don't literally don't understand what your problem is.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:23Jocko Willink?

  Like why would, a big one, so there was a, there was a Navy ship out in front of my house the other day and I took a picture of it and I sent it to like Leif and JP and, and Dave Burke and, and Flynn Cochran and I was like, the Navy was good to me, but I don't miss these big gray monsters, right? And Leif wrote back, you know, he's like, yeah, I mean, that was my motivation going through BUDs, there's no way and, and everyone kind of agreed, everyone was like, yeah, there's no way I was gonna quit BUDs and go to a ship, which is not exactly, it's, well, if you have the personality where you think you want to go to BUDs, then being on a ship is completely the opposite of that personality. So, I don't understand how a guy could be, you know, get, get to a point where they say,

• 36:04Jocko Willink?

  you know what, I don't want to be wet, cold anymore, which is really all it is, you know? People get all excited about SEAL training, but you're wet and you're cold and you're tired. Okay, that, that's, that's, well, it's not that big of a deal.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  The pamphlet is 10% of the job.

• 36:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, check. Yeah, so you get some people that, I guess they don't really want to do it. Everybody wants to be a frogman on a sunny day.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:29Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's another good saying. So, so you guys pushed up into Iraq?

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we, we rolled up and, and the neat thing at the time was, was Mattis was the, was the, you know, he was the, the boss of one MARDIV at the time. So we rolled up with the first Marine Division, linked up with the, with the 13th or 15th Mew in Naziriyah, they had taken some, some heavies.

• 36:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Naziriyah was a big fight.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  And, and so, the, the word that we got, and I mean, again, you'd have to talk to, to Harwood and Mattis if that's how it went down, but basically we got Mattis called Harwood and was like, hey, you know, some of our supply routes and convoys have been getting it handed to them. And some routes in Naziriyah where you guys go ambush the ambushers and like, hell yeah, we will. You know, so it was like the wet dream of what you would think you're getting yourself into combat wise in terms of it was, you know, hey, our conventional guys are getting it taken to them. Here is your grid square, basically. It's your territory. Let

• 37:34Speaker 01

  us know what we can do to help you guys have at it. And we had some leadership at the time that was not that crazy about cutting us off lead, you know, and so we battled it out with them and came up with some creative ways to go out and work anyway. But we just, you know, we went out and did like old school, you know, conducting our own everything, you know, I mean, we gather our own intelligence. We, you know, grabbed a few guys and asked around and, you know, did several hits based on the intelligence that we'd gathered and had air support and it was kind of like a little microcosm of what was to come, you know. Was that the first time you saw dogs in action?

• 38:16Speaker 01

  No, no, no, it wasn't until after that and it wasn't even seeing them. It was hearing about them, which I'll get to in a second, I guess. But so the Naziriyah thing, we were there for a few weeks, just doing our own, doing our own thing, basically. Then we went up to southern Baghdad, just south of Baghdad, and we're there for just a couple of days. Then we were in northern Baghdad. We hit a SCUD base, which was cool. You know, took a SCUD base down and got some pretty neat photos and experiences from that, but. Took down a SCUD base? Got cool pics. Mission accomplished. Yeah, yeah, I mean, got the T-shirt. So after that, then we went up to Crete, you

• 38:59Speaker 01

  know, and so this was, you know, again, this was during the conventional phase. So it was kind of, to me, the unique part about that was, was kind of the best of both worlds. It was like having box seats at a historic combat scene in terms of big conventional forces moving through, you know, there were lines, you know, everything. And so, you know, I don't know if you remember the. I think it was a third ID was supposed to come down through Turkey and in the last minute they said, "No, you're not doing it." So everything, you know, was supposed to be meeting like that in Baghdad with the, you know, the Army and the Marines meeting south to north squeezing Baghdad and, and it didn't happen, um, you know, last minute when they said, "No, you can't run through here." So it was just, you know, the Marines moving south to north

• 39:42Speaker 01

  and, and, um, so we, there was a couple of times where we'd go ahead of them and scout out some routes and, and got into a little bit of trouble a few times. Um, and then as we're coming up, you know, to Crete and Mosul and, uh, you know, Tal Afar and, and, uh, you know, some of the Kurd, Kurd areas up there, they weren't real worried about. To Crete was kind of the last big one that they were worried about being a last stand because it was Saddam's hometown, whatever. And so the entire first Marine Division and SEAL Team Three Echo Platoon, uh, took down to Crete. And, uh, it's funny because they're like, you know, um, you know, first, first division has the west, you know, second's got the north, third's got the south and Team Three Echo Platoon, you guys are taking

• 40:25Speaker 01

  east. Like, you know, there's 16 of us, soft, soft skinned Humvees, right? Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, whatever. So we- Got it. Yeah, we went, we went, uh, skirted, skirted through town while, while the entire town of, you know, 25,000 Marines were taking down to Crete. We're sneaking our way up to, uh, up to the, the palace and we, we took the palace down, which was pretty, pretty neat. Um, stayed there for, for a little while, uh, and then ended up, once we left there, we've kind of bounced around, went down, back down to Baghdad and flew out. But, but, uh, so while I was in to Crete, uh, that's where, you know, we had been in, in scenarios where the, the gist of it was that there was a group of Marines that had, um,

• 41:07Speaker 01

  a dog with them. And there was a, and one of the, the way I described it in the book was, you know, again, it was hearing, you know, these guys are getting ready. There's a little opening, like a kind of a cave complex style opening in the side of a, of a hill. And they had a, a single purpose bomb dog with them. Again, from, this is all just what I heard. Um, and there was a- A grenade booby trap, basically, a clump of grenades just inside the doorway that that this dog had alerted on, you know, and for me, that was like the slap in the face, light switch moment of like, why, why do we not have dogs? And I had grown up in Iowa with bird dogs. I got into hog dogs for a number of years after, which I'll, I'll get into the kind of what I drew from that in terms of heart intensity, conditioning, training, nutrition,

• 41:52Speaker 01

  breeding theory, stuff like that. But, but, you know, I'd spent a number of years prior to that, dealing with dogs, working with them, training them, stuff like that, but never, you know, this focused and strategic about it, calculated. And so for me, it was just from that day on, back in March of oh three, up until as I sit here, it was just like, I couldn't get enough of it, you know? And I'd taken a lot of the lessons I'd learned from training and, and breeding and working with dogs in a, in a more informal capacity and applied a lot of that stuff to, to what, what I had, had started implementing with, with the canine programs and stuff. And so for, for that first five years, it was just kind of, you know, a student, I mean,

• 42:34Speaker 01

  I'm still a student, but, but it was just, you know, training with whoever I could train with, I'd, I would import dogs, I would, you know, go to clubs, I'd, you know, try to work with police departments, anybody I could work with, I would do it. I'd read every book I could, watched videos, went to seminars, you name it. And, and then as I transitioned to get ready to get out, after I got, you know, I came back as an instructor for a little while, got valley fever and lost, you know, forty percent of my lungs. And then as I was getting ready to get out, I, I could either stay in and be a handler on the west coast, or start my own company and, and, you know, provide dogs training, handler courses and make a bigger impact. And for me, that was, I'd say-

• 43:13Jocko Willink?

  You just kind of breezed through the fact that you got valley fever as an instructor. And lost forty percent- And lost forty percent of your lung and it kills some people. And that's, that was obviously a huge piece of you saying, because if you would have stayed in, you, you, you weren't allowed to do anything that had any kind of lung irritants, was the deal?

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so this was, you know, I, I came back and, and went right into being an instructor. I had planned on, you know, forwarding on to, to bigger and better things operationally and-

• 43:46Speaker 01

  You know, I was out at Nylde and I all of a sudden, just like any of us, after you shoot a an AT4 or a Gustaf round, more than a couple of them, your chest's a little tight the next day. I was, you know, the RSO during 55 of them being shot, you know, and so naturally like, yeah, my chest is tight.

• 44:05Jocko Willink?

  That shouldn't be legal, by the way, as we found out. So just so anyone knows, a Carl Gustaf or an AT4, but especially a Carl Gustaf, it's the biggest boom. You're shooting an 84 millimeter rocket and if you shoot two of them or three of them in a day, it's it's like you got punched in the head a bunch. But the problem is our instructor staff goes out there and they sit there and do, what'd you say, 55?

• 44:28Speaker 01

  55.

• 44:29Jocko Willink?

  55 in one day. That's not healthy, bro.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Oh, I know.

• 44:32Jocko Willink?

  That is not healthy.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was one of those things like, well, you're not shooting them, you're just standing there, so it doesn't count. And it's like, okay, you know, typical military genius, you know, but so the next day, you know, I expected my chest and lungs and head and everything to be a little sore than normal. But it got worse and it got to the point where three or four days after that, it was debilitating. You know, it felt like you were standing on my chest, especially when I laid down, it got worse. And so finally, they said, you know, hey, you need to go to Balboa and hit the ER and see what the hell's going on. And so I went and it took, you know, based on, and I can't blame Balboa, like based on what I told them, naturally, they're assuming blast lung, you know, type of issues,

• 45:16Speaker 01

  you know, some sort of, you know, explosive type of damage, but it wasn't. You know, what that did is it exacerbated what had already started, which was me having breathed in coxidia mycosis, which is a microscopic fungus that lives in arid climates and it spreads through your lungs like mold. Where it gets dangerous and kills people is is two things. One, your genetic makeup predisposed to determine, you know, how big of an impact it has. The other one is how much you're exposed to and how long it goes untreated. So I basically, it grows through your lungs like mold and spreads, but if it if it goes past that, if it disseminates past your lungs, then it goes into your into your blood, into

• 45:59Speaker 01

  your organs, into your bone, and then ultimately it'll get into your CSF fluid, cerebral spinal fluid, and into your spinal cord and go up into your brain, and that's when it kills people. And so it's kind of like encephalitis that way, but. So mine had disseminated past my lungs. There was a couple of hotspots in my chest, in my sternum and in my chest bone, ribs and whatever. And so when they caught it, they prescribed Lamisil, which is a toenail fungus medication, but, or no, I'm sorry, Diflucan. But it's a lot harsher than Lamisil. It's Flucanazole. And so they, long story short, I was on 28 times the amount that you would be prescribed for, for a bad case

• 46:42Speaker 01

  of toenail fungus. And I got down. So here's the irony. I had gotten up to 200 pounds prior to that. And then I got back down. I weighed 140 pounds at the end of it. I was on convalescent leave for eight months. At the time, my chief was Ty Woods, you know, from Benghazi. God rest his soul. Awesome dude. But, so I was working for him at the time. And he, you know, just couldn't have been better. I mean, he checked on me, came by the house regularly. I mean, you know, I mean, I couldn't do anything. Like, I slept 20 hours a day. I was like having pneumonia and mono at the same time, lost a ton of weight, got down to about 140. Finally, they had gotten the disease under control and

• 47:26Speaker 01

  got it to recede. But it lays in your bloodstream like malaria does, or whatever. It lays dormant. So if I got pneumonia, or leukemia, or HIV, or cancer, or something that really immunosuppressed me, it could come back. And so that's, it's always there. You always have antibodies there. But, so, at the end of that, the infectious disease captain at Balboa sat me down. He's like, you know, I would recommend a medical retirement for you right now. And he said, if you want to go that route, I'm not saying you have to, but, but that's what I recommend. And, you know, he basically let me know what you want to do. And I was like, man, I, you know, I've got a child on, my first child on the way. I have no college degree. I had,

• 48:10Speaker 01

  he's totally caught me off guard. Like, I have no plan, you know.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  And so I said, well, you know, how can I stay in? You know, he said, well, you gotta stay away from lung irritants for a few years, honestly. He's like, to make as good a recovery as you're gonna make, you've gotta slowly get back into shape and put weight on. You gotta take really good care of your lungs. I mean, stay away from harsh cleaning products, smoke, you know, dust, everything.

• 48:32Jocko Willink?

  Which is basically everything you do as a SEAL.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:35Jocko Willink?

  I mean, everything that you do. You're cleaning

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:38Jocko Willink?

  stuff, you're blowing stuff up, you're setting stuff on fire, you're shooting guns with lead, and it's just a disaster for your lungs.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, you know, really, the only potentially logical explanation, or, you know, choice was to go over to the center as a basic, you know, BUDS instructor. And so, bro, the master chief that I was working for at the time, you know, can't say enough good things about him. He hooked me up and made a deal with the training master chief, and they sent me over there. And I spent, you know, three years there, which, you know, was an amazing experience, too. And I honestly, I've drawn a lot of lessons from being an instructor to both life and to training dogs, which I know we'll get into. But, you know, so it was neat to be behind the curtain there for a little while and see what the wizards saw,

• 49:27Speaker 01

  so to speak. But, you know, then when I, like I said, as I was there, I started, that's when the West Coast Canine Program was coming up online, oh seven, oh eight timeframe. And I went and did some decoy training with some of their guys up at a vendor they were using up in Central California. And it was almost kind of like a working interview, basically, if, hey, is this something you want to get involved with? And I was like, yeah, absolutely. And so they, so basically, I was at a crossroads. They said, you know, if you want to re-enlist and whatever, you know, you can come be a handler here, you know, or that's it, you know. And I thought about it for a while. And for me, you know, it's one of those Forks in the road that there isn't a right answer, you know, I wouldn't be where I'm at today.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  But I'd be, I'd be lying to you if I said there isn't part of me that wishes I, I had stayed in. I'd still be in doing deployments as a handler, I'm, I'm sure, you know, so. But for me, again, just kinda back to like when I first joined the Navy, I've always looked at it as how can I make a bigger impact? Not, not what do I want most personally? But what, what's gonna make more of an impact in terms of, of the industry and, and helping more people? And to me, it just made sense if I can sell, you know, lots of dogs and, and provide handler training and run courses and, and source nice dogs to feed the program and all that, then, then that makes more sense from a big picture standpoint.

• 50:49Jocko Willink?

  Did you ever get connected with any of the Vietnam era dog handlers?

• 50:54Speaker 01

  I did, a team guy, actually.

• 50:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like, uh, do you ever hear stories about Prince?

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Prince.

• 51:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, so Prince was like the, the, uh, I, I believe was the most successfully used dog in Vietnam by the SEALs. There was a dog named Prince. I, I heard stories when I first got in about Prince and one of the stories that I heard, and again, this is a story of, it's an oral tradition that's been passed down, but the story was that there was guys that were getting extracted on a helicopter and that they, they all piled, it was a hot extract, they, all the guys pile into the bird and they've got Prince, the dog, with them. And the guy says, uh, you know, hey, we're too heavy to take off. Somebody's gotta get out and this is the air crewman, looks at, you know, looks, looks at the chief and says, hey,

• 51:44Jocko Willink?

  we're too heavy to take off, somebody's gotta get out. And looks at the guy and looks at Prince, like, get the dog out of here, we gotta take off. And the story goes that the handler, SEAL handler, like, put his hand on, on the dog and was like, none of us are going anywhere. And they had to just crank the engines and you know barely be able to take off but that was the that was the story that I heard about and there's pictures of Prince you can see in the archives. So I was just wondering if you ever talked to any of the guys that were any of the Prince handlers?

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Not that I'm aware of. There's a guy and you know I actually never talked to him about what his dog's name was. I'm sure if it was him he probably would have told me but there was I think he was the first Vietnam SEAL canine handler that I talked to right as my first book came out and sent him a signed copy and you know talked to him a little bit as it was coming out which was for me just it was an awesome experience you know like hearing this guy talk like it was basically like here's a dog figure it out you know I mean that's about the gist of it.

• 52:45Jocko Willink?

  Apparently they had some hard times they didn't know what they were doing and it took a couple deployments of before they figured out okay and they got the dog Prince up to speed and apparently he saved a bunch of guys over time.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Yeah I mean he had some pretty interesting things to say about the program and the efficacy of the dogs back then and yeah I mean a lot of it was them just kind of working their way through it. And that's the thing that I think most people there's probably the biggest misrepresentation of canine programs is that it's not a weapon system you know where it's like okay you're Mark One motto team guy like you'll figure it out like it's a totally different animal no pun intended. It is I mean like you know the podcast you did with the Sacks right when he's talking about horses it takes 10 years like it's that way with dogs it really is I mean because it's a totally different deal. It takes years

• 53:35Speaker 01

  to get truly you know I would say that to be able to master you know what it takes to implement a dog program it's akin to flipping on another detachment you know or saying hey we're going to create a female special forces unit like it's going to take a long time before that's up and running and dog programs are very similar that way so it's hard enough when you've got training cadre resources you know budgeting billeting all that stuff in your favor it still takes several years you know to just say here's a dog figure it out like that's a tough pill to swallow you know those guys did it you know just like any of us would you know that will figure it out but.

• 54:13Jocko Willink?

  Well alright let's let's let's get into the book a little bit because I think that'll just guide us because I had a great time reading this book. As you know I have a dog as well which.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  It's a man biters.

• 54:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah but.

• 54:28Jocko Willink?

  The book that I decided to go with, you've got three books out. Obviously, the SEAL Team Dog is a book more, it's a, what they call in the, in the literary industry, it's a YA book for young adults, right? That's what it is?

• 54:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's actually Navy SEAL Dogs is the young adult adaptation of Trident Canyon War. So it's the same, same story.

• 54:47Jocko Willink?

  Same book. So don't buy that one if you're an adult.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Don't get both of them.

• 54:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, don't get both of them. But then this book, Team Dog, How to Train Your Dog the Navy SEAL Way, and what, the reason, and as soon as, as soon as you got here today, you're like, you know, I just got, listened to the last podcast with Desacs and there's so many parallels, you'd be surprised. And I was like, he's like, are we gonna talk about that? I'm like, of course we are, because that's, there's so many parallels between how you lead a dog, and how you lead a human. As awful as that might sound, it's absolutely true.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%.

• 55:18Jocko Willink?

  Uh, one of the things you kick off here, and, and I, I kinda skipped to the middle of the book because it's talking about selection. So I'm gonna go to the book here. Selection is crucial. I can't emphasize this poison, point enough. In most cases, when I've been asked to intervene in problem dog situations, what I instantly see is a mismatch. Such as either a slightly built person, or an elderly couple who have a 75-pound, high-energy dog, who they can't walk without being dragged along. Those people are physically incapable of exerting enough force to stop that dog from moving. A necessary first step in getting a dog to walk properly on a leash. That's just one example of how better selection could have resulted in a better relationship.

• 56:01Jocko Willink?

  And, again, that's a real obvious one. That's one of the easiest ones to understand. Oh, I'm a small, old woman, and I can't get a 100-pound dog to drag me around. But, there's a lot of, a lot of other characteristics that are way more nuanced. For instance, a dog that is super high-energy, and you're a working person, that's busy all the time, you gotta work when you're home, and you're gonna have that dog nipping at you all the time, play with me, play with me, play with me, play with me. That's not gonna be a good match. That's not gonna be a good match at all. And, and you see, well, you were quoting some of the quotes about, I mean, tell me a little bit about dog ownership in America right now, because I think a lot of it, selection, has a lot to do with where we end up with problems.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  So, there's two things, really. I mean, dog ownership as a whole is, uh, it's a goat rope, honestly. And, and that's where this book stems from. That's where my, my Team Dog online training program stems from. And frankly, the, the campaign that, that I'm about to launch, that, that is in essence, the crux of the problem with, uh, with dog ownership in this country is that it's, it's mismatched, uh, poor selection, and, and most importantly, it's just an inability to communicate properly with the dog. Uh, and, and what that stems from is very simply is that, you know, dogs' minds, um, that, if, if you think about it from, from the most basic standpoint you can, is that, you know,

• 57:23Speaker 01

  you, you and I, we're, we're having this conversation verbally, right? You, you dream in a language, you're talking a language, you think in a language. Uh, we communicate overwhelmingly verbally. Now, when you think about, about dogs, is it just something as simple as, as you and I meeting? Uh, if, if I come over and I shake your hand, and we smile and nod, I, you know, touch your shoulder, whatever, walk away. Somebody can see that from across the parking lot and know, yeah, it was a cordial, cordial greeting. You and I stand up next to each other, and we're looking at each other like this, and, and doing this kind of stuff, and sizing each other up, and turn around. Again, from across the parking lot, you know those two dudes are about to brawl. Now, if it's that easy for us as human beings who are overwhelmingly verbal in how we communicate to, to pick

• 58:05Speaker 01

  that thing up, now imagine a dog who's never thought in a language, uh, who doesn't dream in a language, doesn't communicate in a language. Now, now think about how important body language and non-verbal, verbal communication skills are. It's everything to a dog. And so their, their mind, uh, is an algorithm. It, it works like a calculator. It doesn't work like, like our minds. And that's, that's the biggest single... Crucial element where people make the mistakes is they anthropomorphize and they attach all these human associations, emotions, logic and reasoning to a dog's brain and it doesn't work that way. You know, the A plus B equals C. You know, the scientific jargon is antecedent plus behavior equals consequence, but just

• 58:46Speaker 01

  think of it like a calculator is that grabbing the leash plus putting it on, you know, grabbing the leash A plus putting it on B equals we go for a walk C. When A plus B is paired enough times to where a dog anticipates C, that's when you have problems. How many people have you seen, you know, that have a dog that they grab the leash and he's just, you know, spinning around the moon and they can't even get a leash on him to take him for a walk, let alone settle down. That's why. Is because every single time you've paired A plus B, it's equaled C and now he's anticipating when A and, he's anticipating C when A and B are present. So something as simple as breaking that context gets rid of that. You know, a lot of people, let's put a prong collar on, let's put an E collar, let's knee him in the ribs, let's manhandle him, all these things.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  All you have to do is break that context, you know, and it's really that simple is that whether you're trying to build it or whether you're trying to break it, the process is the exact same. You're either gonna make A plus B equals C enough times to where you want him to anticipate it, or if C is something you don't want anticipated, you're gonna make A plus B not equal it. So with the leash example, it's I go grab the leash, I click it, I wrap it around my waist, I go sit down on the couch with it. And now the dog's looking at you like his mind's blown. He's like, what the hell is going on? We're supposed to be walking right now. And then I get up, I put it back and I go sit down and go about my day. You do that enough times and now when you grab the leash, it doesn't mean anything to him. So just as one simple example, if you think about all of these different behaviors that

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  we as human beings inadvertently create in the animal, that is why. It's a, it's a lack of that understanding that their mind just works differently than ours. As soon as you understand that, coupled with presence, you know, I know you have to speak about this in your, in your business leadership conferences and how you carry yourself, how you interact with people is huge, you know, and if it's, again, if it's that big with people, I mean, you know, you're the type of guy that, you know, you walk into a room, people are like, this dude's running, running the show, right? A lot of people, you know, that we've worked with or worked for are like that, just command respect by the way they carry themselves, by the way they walk in. And if it's, again, if it's that effective just with us as human beings who aren't driven

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  that way primarily, now imagine a dog. Like, I do exercises with dogs all the times where I don't say a word to them. It'll be the first time I've ever seen a dog. I'll put a three-foot leash on him in a room with basically nothing in it. And this is a dog that, you know, they've had all these problems with. It's a nine-month-old crazy, high-energy dog. I did it just the other day, actually, on the trip I was on before this. This training facility was having trouble with this dog, and they wanted to go to using some compulsion methods, some prong collar and e-collar stuff to get the dog under control. I said, "Let me mess them for a minute." So I connect the leash to him. I walk around with him and I just tug on the leash and feeling him, you know, getting a feel for his personality.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  But, you know, if you think of it like a bumper or a buffer, is that you're the buffer between that dog, his mind, and the stimuli. And everything that goes between it, you're almost the gatekeeper. And so when you have to get inside that dog's mind and be able to reach it first, you know, which means I have to mirror what I want out of the dog. If he's a spaz, I can't treat him like a spaz. I can't spaz out and yank him and yell at him and get all up in his grill about it. I need to throttle it down and be a mirror or a representation, a physical representation of what I want out of him. And so it got to the point where I finally got him to just relax, lay down, and I could get up and walk

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  around the room, and he wouldn't move. And he had not done that before. And it's not anything crazy, magic, wizard stuff. It's just, it's a basic understanding of canine psychology, operant conditioning, and the four quadrants. But most importantly, it's that nonverbal communication aspect that with dogs is just imperative.

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  When you, another thing that, before we move on past selection, or we got a little bit more, but a lot of times people figure they want certain breed of dog, right? And I had a great conversation with you when I was getting a dog a while back, and you were like, "Look, you could have a great dog that's a mutt. You could have a great dog that's a purebred, whatever, you name it. You could have a horrible dog that's a mutt, and you can have a horrible dog that's a purebred, whatever you want to name it, or whatever that breed is."

• 1:03:06Jocko Willink?

  There's the breed that you get, obviously, you gotta look at how big it's gonna be and what kinda temperament, but the temperament thing, how, how well is that temperament thing? And how much, how much impact does the, does the breed and the temperament align?

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  So, I would say that there's, there's basically two categories. There's the working varieties and the non-working varieties. When it comes to non-working varieties, in other words, your average domesticated house pet, honestly, it's, it's a paint job, in, in my opinion. You know, breed really is, what do you like, what do you like, what, what does it look like, and what do you like? It's purely aesthetic, or almost that way. Because they are bred for aesthetics, they're not bred for working, working traits. Now, when you're talking about Malinois, Shepherds, Catahouls, Coon Dogs, you know, Terrier types, Rat Terriers, Patterdales, whatever, any type of dog that is bred purposefully. Now, it, it is a different ballgame. Now, I would say that, you know, most Malinois, as an example, you know, do

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  have a higher level of energy, a higher drive, that doesn't necessarily translate to good drive. You know, a lot of people make the misconception that, oh, my dog has tons of energy, he just needs a job, he needs to work, and, and he'd be a great working dog. Not necessarily. You know, it could be nervous energy, it could be anxiousness, it could be thin environmental nerves, there's a lot of different reasons. But, back to your, your question, is that, from a selection standpoint, you know, the, if you're talking about any breed that you're just getting that's an AKC dog, or, or even a shelter dog, or whatever, that's, that's not bred from three, four, or five generations of lineage, that's, that's been selected because it brings certain working traits to the table, it's, a good

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  dog is where you find it, you know. It really is. I mean, it's, it's what are the parents like if it's out of a shelter? Just go evaluate the dog with the same tips that, that I gave you, honestly. And I do that, I don't care where the dog's coming from. It could be the best bred dog from the, the, the most pipe hitter-ish parents I've ever come across, I'm still gonna evaluate that dog with, with zero kennel blindedness, with no bias whatsoever. I don't care if it's a friend of mine, I don't care if it's puppies I raised. I, I wash out puppies that I, I breed and raise all the time, because they're just not what I need. And that's from a selection standpoint to tie in the SEAL teams and having been an instructor.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  The reason I think that, not I think, the reason that the caliber of individual that shows up at a SEAL team is so high is because BUDS is such a tough selection process.

• 1:05:31Jocko Willink?

  I asked it the other day, like, people ask me, what, you know, did you learn how to deal with stress? Did you learn in BUDS? And I'm like, no, you don't actually learn that. You just, if you can't, you go away. They don't, there's not a class where they say, okay, when you start feeling stressed, here's what you do. Or when you start feeling like you can't go any further, we want you to repeat this mantra. No, they don't do that. They just put you in crappy situations and if you want to quit, you quit. There's no education there.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  I think the only education that exists is you learn who you are.

• 1:06:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's, that's a good point. Yeah. But no one teaches you.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:06:04Jocko Willink?

  I mean, it's the, I guess, I guess the, the environment is what teaches you that. Another good thing you wrote in here, and you just talked about a little bit, dogs are meant to be active and are happiest when they're doing something. And the reason I highlighted that was because it's the same thing with people. It's the same thing I've been talking about with Joe Rogan. It's the same thing I've been talking about with Jordan Peterson. You know, with Joe Rogan, we were saying that, you know, you need some kind of a struggle to make you feel like you're accomplishing something. With Jordan Peterson, it's, you know, we talk about how if you take up the burden of responsibility, that's what gives you a purpose. And so for dogs, if you're just going to let your dog run around and do whatever he wants, well, he's not really going to be happy. Is that the point?

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  It is. And here's, I would say, a classic example of us as humans anthropomorphizing certain elements to dogs. By that, I mean that we, we look at it as a job, as purpose, right? Again, this is my opinion. I'm not a world renowned canine psychologist, but, but I play one on TV. But, you know, the fact is, is that, you know, dogs, I don't think have that, that depth of understanding of purpose. They have what I would, I would classify it as, you know, like a five-year-old is they have a need to be stimulated. Physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, nutritionally, everything, just like we as human beings. And where you see problems, and I see it all the time with, with my online dog training,

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  is that, you know, when people first start out, that it's, it's kind of a re-education of sorts of, of saying, you know, number one, you gotta put yourself in the dog's shoes and I'm gonna help you doing it by structuring these, these monthly lessons so that they're cumulative, so that you, you can understand and watch your dog transform and, and learn from it. But what it is, is that it's, it's making an understanding, is just like with people, is that, you know, that dog needs to have physical exercise as part of his daily regimen. He needs to have routine so that, so that he can count on you and, and depend on you for providing the resources that necessitates his life. He's gotta have, uh, mental stimulation, just like we do. I mean, you can do nothing but work out, but think about the difference between a gym workout and a jujitsu roll in terms of what it does for your mind. Like, it's night and day difference.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  And so you can't just go make your dog blow his physical wad every day playing ball, like you, you've got to make his mind work. And that's where using a clicker to reinforce and shape, uh, behaviors comes into play because now they have to think, they have to figure things out. Uh, and it is, it's, it's mentally exhausting or at a minimum stimulating and, and they require that. Uh, same with food, same with sunlight, you know, is that if, imagine you sit in here, you know, 23 hours a day, or, or you don't go outside, you don't roll, you eat beef jerky and canned goods or McDonald's, um, you know, do that week after week after week, where are you gonna be? You know, across the board, physically, mentally, health-wise, immune system, everything's gonna be garbage. And so what, what happens is a lot of these people, they, they think they're, you know, spoiling their dog.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  I don't know when that became a, a positive thing, uh, but, um, but, you know, they think that, you know, by not making him do things, not teaching him things, not enforcing things, not having a, a routine in which that dog can depend on. Not stimulating his mind, not making sure that he's physically active and keeping him in good shape, that those are all benefits and they're not. They're detriments, you know?

• 1:09:16Jocko Willink?

  Needless to say, this applies directly to your kids and how you raise your kids. Everything you just rattled off is basically how you end up with spoiled kids that are lazy and unproductive in their lives.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:09:29Jocko Willink?

  And, and by the way, lazy, unproductive, and unhappy. Cause they're not gonna be happy when they're a loser sitting around playing video games, you know, 23 hours a day, covered in Cheeto dust.

• 1:09:38Speaker 01

  That's my favorite. You know, one of the things that I think that is really interesting to me of how dog training kind of relates to life is that it's, it's like a Petri dish or almost a microcosm of life is that, no different than whether it's business, relationship goals, leadership, a coach with his athletes, a teacher with students, a parent with their kids, you name it, but you know, a general with his troops, is that you have to have an objective. You gotta know, what, how do I want my dog, you know, what does a finished dog look like? You gotta know in your mind, what is that? Just like if you wanna be a black belt in jujitsu, you wanna own a $10 million company, whatever it is, if you don't know where you wanna go, you're not gonna steer it anywhere. You're gonna be floating

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  around. So you gotta know that first. Then you gotta be honest with yourself in terms of doing an evaluation. Where am I? Okay, now I know where I wanna be. I know where I'm at. Now it's formulating a plan, and then you schedule it and execute it. Just like every other aspect of your life. There is honestly no difference. The neat thing about dog training is that, you know, you can go through that process dozens of times, you know, as a dog trainer especially, but even if you just have a dog, that, that, it's a condensed process that's, that's in such a controlled environment. You see the cause and effect. You see that the criteria-driven, algorithmic process that exists in all of life, but it plays out and you're, you're manipulating it. You're controlling it. You're,

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  you're directly influencing every aspect of it. And so, I've, I've learned more about people. By training dogs than I would have ever imagined, you know, I mean, it's it's mind numbing almost how much you can you can learn from training dogs and how to interact with people based on on all of that, you know, it's it's pretty pretty fascinating, I think.

• 1:11:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, there's no doubt. I got that all out of this book, too. Going on to what you talked about a little bit, but just to clarify what you specifically wrote in the book here, you talk about meeting a dog. Before we get into the specifics of that process, I want to take a moment to turn this discussion around again and focus on you and not the dog. If a dog is looking for someone to take charge and exert authority over him in order to not burden him with that responsibility, then you need to carry yourself a certain way. I go back to something I said in the introduction about wanting to be respected over being liked. Think about the kinds of introductions and greetings you've had with people and a variety of ways in which they've interacted with you. How would you respond if you met someone for the first time and they rushed up to you, hugged you, tussled

• 1:12:06Jocko Willink?

  your hair, jumped up and down, and generally acted like you were the greatest person on the face of the earth? Wouldn't you think that or would you think that person's assessment of you was valid? Would you like that kind of physical contact? Would you think that this was a great starting point for a long term relationship? Would you have respect for that person? And then you get to this point where you say, what kind of dog is going to be attracted to that kind of greeting and that message? And the answer is a needy dog. Yeah, that's incredible point. You know, do you really want, you know, let's say you're hiring an employee and the employee you can tell just needs a lot of encouragement, even though they're all fired up, but the more you fire them up, the more fired up they get. Well, is that the person you really want to have that's going to take you there

• 1:12:50Jocko Willink?

  to emotionally prod them along to get them where you want to go? The answer is obviously no.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, one of the one of the most common kind of scenario analogies that I I throw at people when because, you know, I do a lot of speaking and events and conferences and whatever. And, you know, one of the almost always offline people like, oh, my dog, I need to send him to him like. That's not gonna fix it, you know, no different than you sending your kids like they're gonna work well for me, they're not gonna work well for you, cuz you're not, you're not doing it. But, but think of it from a perspective, from a boardroom is that, you know, when they say, "My dog doesn't respect me," there's two things, there's a big difference between respecting and, and enjoying or liking. So the first, first example I use is the, you know, being at a bar. And I'll, I'll save the, the, the heavy details, but the gist of it is that if, if the opposite

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  sex is throwing themself at you, do you like that? Well, yeah. Do you enjoy it? Absolutely. Do you respect that person? No. You know, so you can spoil your dog, you can let him sleep, I let him sleep in my bed, I take him for walks, I give him treats, I take him to acupuncture, he just, he doesn't listen to me. Like, I bet your kids don't either. And, and that's why, because it's, it's the, it's the nineteen year old at the bar that's trying to flatter ya, that doesn't, it's enjoyable, but it doesn't, doesn't garner respect. The second thing, on a more serious note, is, um, think of a boardroom, and, and I use this because I talk with a lot of business folks and, and things, uh, at different events, and, uh, let's say that you're tasked with going in front of the, the twelve executives of the company you work for. Uh, and, and your, your boss says, "Hey, you're gonna give a PowerPoint presentation,

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  and your job depends on this. If you knock it out of the park, you're getting a promotion, you're gonna be an executive. If it doesn't go that well, well, you're gonna pack your stuff and find, find employment elsewhere." Now, I want you to think about how you go into that boardroom, right? And I want you to think about, visualize in your mind, interacting with those twelve executives, the way that you interact with your dog. How would that, how would that presentation go? You know, every one of them, "Oh, I'd get laughed out of the room." That's why your dog doesn't listen to ya. Cuz your dog, you, you can tell your dog that you're his owner all you want, you have to show him that. If he doesn't believe you because you haven't shown him that, guess what? You're not. You can think about it, you, you can wish that you were, you can hope that you were.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  Uh, the fact is, is that, uh, your dog is, is going to believe who you show him that you are. Uh, and if that's a clown, guess what? He thinks you're a clown. If you're an emotionally unstable, you know... JA, that's how he's gonna view ya. If you're a beta male because you're rolling around and letting him, you know, do whatever he wants to ya, that he's gonna view ya as such, you know? And the most dangerous combination, because a lot of times you hear the word dominance get thrown around, alpha, and all this other stuff. I can tell ya, I can count on one hand, the amount of dogs that I've come across that were truly what I would consider an alpha dog. And this is a dog that even with all my experience, all of the manipulations I can provide in terms of setting the environment up

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  to make it so that I'll, you know, impact him that way, he still wants to fight me over everything, no matter what I do. And I can't get in his head, no matter how hard I try, no matter what I do physically, mentally, environmental manipulation, you name it. Less than five.

• 1:16:05Jocko Willink?

  This is out of thousands of dogs? Thousands of dogs. Less than five that actually need to be the alpha male over you with everything that you know how to do to get in their heads?

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  That no matter what you do with them, that they still look at everybody like you're below me. A handful of them, you know, less than a handful of them. And so, when I hear, especially pet owners, like, "Oh, he's really alpha, he's really protective." No, he's not.

• 1:16:31Jocko Willink?

  You're just weak.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  There's a power vacuum. Yeah, and so, you know, dogs, again, they don't rationalize, they don't have the logic and reasoning we have. They come hardwired with a set of genetically inherited traits that say if there is no, nothing in charge, if there's a vacuum, whether I wanna do it or not, I'm going to because somebody has to. And so, when you see all of these dogs that are dangerous and guarding of food and territorial and all this other stuff, you have a dog that doesn't wanna be in charge, but is taking that role because nobody else will. And that is an absolute recipe for disaster. And that's why you see so many problems with dogs and their owners is because of that simple fact in and of itself.

• 1:17:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You're talking, you know, again, we're talking about all these similarities. Here's the thing you got in the book. Encouraging that kind of over-the-top display of affection is the complete opposite of how you should present yourself to an unfamiliar pup or dog. You are the one who is making the decision. You are the one in charge. And how you carry yourself into the situation and what signals your body language sends are something that any dog will recognize and decode immediately. Do you want to concede the position of power in that relationship immediately? Absolutely not. And again, this is the same thing as a leader. This doesn't mean, and you point this out in the book, this doesn't mean that you dominate. This doesn't mean that you come in and you're overly aggressive. And I talk about that all the time with being a leader. This doesn't mean that you come in and you're barking orders at people, because that doesn't work either.

• 1:17:55Jocko Willink?

  That, that, so you gotta find that balance, just like you do with, with humans.

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Sure, there's a couple of things with that. Again, with dogs, especially because it's so simplified. You know, that, that, that element is reduced to a very primal nature. You know, so when you have a dog that truly is dominant, if you display that, guess what? You're getting in a fight. If you have a dog that's not that way and you display that, what happens? The dog is scared. When the dog is scared of you, no different than if, if you, you know, have, have a child that's, you know, at the third grade level, you know, when they walk into a classroom, or they're sitting in a classroom and the teacher walks in and they blow their anal glands, you know, because they're, they're getting ready to get whipped with rulers and, you know, electrocuted or god knows what else, they're not gonna learn anything.

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  On the transverse, if when you walk in, they're throwing spitwads and playing tag and ignore you entirely, they're not gonna learn anything there either. So just like in all walks of life, there's balance. But what, what it is, is it's exactly that. It's, it's maintaining a level of, of emotional stability, a calm demeanor and a rested, but calculated mind in terms of how you interact with that animal. And it's, it's really, it's not hard at all. There's two videos that I, in my online thing called Be The Man. Be The Man Part One and Be The Man Part Two, where I do exactly that. I don't say really a word, in essence, to two different dogs, both very strong, very dominant dogs. That, you know, their, their level of prey drive for a toy, a ball, a tug, what have you,

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  is such that if I have it, they just, you know, they, they start shaking and barking and bouncing and they'll try to take it from me, even though they're both personal dogs of mine in the past. Their drive is so overblown and overdriven that, that it overrides everything, common sense wise. And you actually can't use that to train them, because it's, it's so, so overdriven.

• 1:19:42Jocko Willink?

  So some people are all excited about prey drive, but you can have too much prey drive if you're not balanced?

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Um, I, I would say that it's, to me, I would say no. There's no such thing, in my opinion, for the dogs I work with, I would say there's no. No such thing as too much. Uh, there is too much to do certain types of training with it. If I'm trying to teach obedience, focus, uh, stuff like that, no, I won't use balls and toys like that because it is too much. I'll use food or body language. Now, when it comes to controlling impulse and things like that, yeah, absolutely, but it's after I've done enough repetitions to where it transfers from being a decision to a reaction. No different.

• 1:20:15Jocko Willink?

  But you can end up with, can you end up with a dog that's, his prey drive is so high that he, you can't take him to the park and trust that he's going to, or can you train it out of him?

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  You can train, you, well, you can control it. You can cap that drive by reinforcing it. So, think of it this way, and this is, the more drive and lack of impulse control that dogs have, um, the more, you know, energy, et cetera, all the things that typically wind dogs up in shelters, all of those, those components are something that can, that can absolutely be controlled. But, the thing to remember is that, think about the first fistfight you were ever in, or even if it happens now, think about where your mind is at. It's at a very elevated state. Just like when you see an amateur fighter, the first couple of fights, like, you know, they're swinging for the fences, they blow their, wah, they, you know, whereas you see a guy that's calculated, that's been doing it a while, he knows how to control that. That's, that's what,

• 1:21:09Speaker 01

  in essence, what you're teaching the dog, but you have to do it. They can't rationalize that. The way you do it is the exact same, though, is that you're putting them through so many repetitions, no different than, think about the very first time you were on your primary, and you pull the trigger and nothing happened. You had to think, okay, I'm gonna put it down, it's trigger control, and you're doing all the things in your head. At a certain point, that becomes a reaction.

• 1:21:30Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  When that becomes a reaction, then you're trained. Same thing with a dog, is that you've gotta do those repetitions using things to reinforce it. If the dog is in that state of mind, because the, the key component is you gotta do it when they're not in that state of mind. To be able to control them when they're in that state of mind, you have to build that foundation first. Just, you know, you can't, you can't teach a fighter how to be composed by doing real, real matches. That comes in training. And so, the, the parallel, again, is, is, is exact, uh, is that you've gotta, you've gotta use a classroom. And what I do, I use a forty by forty classroom, where I use a clicker, food, treats, affection, body language, and I, and I teach and shape all these behaviors that I'm trying to teach, until it becomes a reaction, and then I just slowly start to introduce distractions and, and graduate them K through twelve.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Until they're doctors, you know, of going out and some of the videos I have of some of the dogs I've worked with, you know, and one of them is a black German shepherd, I actually just sold him to a big Metroplex SWAT team, but I could take him through Walmart off-leash, I could take him to parks where kids are playing soccer around him, and this is a dog that even if I have a ball, he'll bite through my hand to get to it. And I could get to where, without using any punishment, without using any compulsion, just by doing, shaping and reinforcing and using, you know, that A plus B equals C over and over until it became a conditioned response and now the dog works on autopilot. But it's like your name. You know, when somebody says Jocko, you don't have to think about responding,

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  you've heard it enough times to where you do that, you know. Same, same exact principle.

• 1:23:01Jocko Willink?

  What's up with resource guarding?

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  Usually what it stems from is, again, inadvertent creative, created behavior. Kids messing with them, taking food from them. A lot of times, you know, see people, I want to be able to take food. I don't mess with the dogs when they eat. Now, I need to be able to bump them, walk by them, take it from them if I have to. But it's, it's, when a dog has really high drive for something and you compete for that over and over and over, you're building, think of it like a barrier in the dog's mind. And you've got a, your goal is to kind of hit the, the refresh button on the computer screen in that dog's mind. And so, you know, what I'll do, like if a dog has real heavy resource guarding with, with food as an example, is that now I'll feed that dog his entire ration of food

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  from my hand throughout the day training. So now, it's not me setting a bowl of food down and now you're going to guard it and get crappy with me. It's, you know, when you do what I want, then you're, I'm going to mark it and reward it, you're getting it from my hand, and it just breaks that context wide open and now, now it doesn't become a thing. In the police dog realm, one of the, one of the most common examples of Of that behavior, misfiring is outing. When we're doing bite work and that dog is in that crazy elevated state of mind and he's overlapping prey and defensive drive and you're transferring back and forth. Is it now you say, okay, let go, just like the first time you got in a fight, like, you know, one of your buddies taps you on the shoulder, hey, hey, stop fighting, like, you don't hear that.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  So to reach that dog's mind when they're in that elevated state, it all boils down to you gotta enter their mind first to communicate. But is it when they're in that elevated state of mind, what usually happens is they use an e-collar, a prong collar, they grab their, the dog's flat collar, they'll roll it, twist it, just like a guillotine choke and lift him off. All that does is create conflict between the handler and dog and it builds and creates possession over objects. So with a ball, you see it all the time, people, my dog won't give me the ball. How do I get it from him? What are you doing? And you're watching, he's chasing the guy, he's chasing the dog around with the ball. How do I get him to let go of the ball? Get another ball. Make your ball sexier than the ball that he has. The second he drops it, you mark it and throw the new ball.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  Just like that, now the dog will spit it out for you with no conflict, with no problems whatsoever, but it's that way with everything. It's with food, it's with toys, it's with, you name it.

• 1:25:23Jocko Willink?

  You talk a lot about indifference in here as sort of a, I don't know, it's like a base sort of reaction to a lot of stuff, and I noticed that with my dog. If I want my dog to drop a ball, if I just ignore him for five seconds, the ball drops out and then he looks at me, because he knows, like, okay, can you pay some attention, because I want you to fill this thing again. Boom, bend down, grab the ball, throw it again. He comes back, he wants to, he wants to fight for it, but if I ignore him, just look away for three seconds. Ball gets dropped, bend down, take it.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's the same, it's the same barroom psychology, you know, why aren't you paying attention to me?

• 1:25:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  But, you know, to bring it back to the dog aspect is that, you know, if, think about it from more of a, almost a primal nature. Think about kids, when you watch kids, what's a very natural, when you bring several kids together, what do they do naturally? They chase each other. It's a natural function in animals on the planet. Dogs are no different, so if they have something, it's a game as much as anything, but you can turn it into something more serious as the dog gets older and they become more possessive and driven because you've built those barriers in their mind. But in terms of the indifference piece, 100%, one of the first things I do with the Warrior Dog Foundation, the nonprofit that I have, that we retire former Spec Ops dogs and police dogs and contract working dogs and all sorts of different dogs, but the very first thing

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  I do with all those dogs is I have a pouch of food. I have a clicker, and the clicker, just for those of you that, you know, to, so that you understand what I'm talking about, it's just a little mechanical device. It has a button on it, you push it and it goes ch-ch, and it just makes a very mechanical sound that's unique that pairs whatever the behavior is with a reward. It's a bridging of stimulus, so just think about it like taking a picture, you know, is that you're letting the dog know that the instant of what's taking place right this second is correct and a reward is attached to that. But anyway, so I let them out of the gate and I've got a two and a half acre training field around my kennel facility, and so it's just me and the dog, walking around with a pouch full of food and a clicker, and I completely ignore them.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  And I purposely walk away from them, and anytime that dog comes over to me, I mark it, reward it, turn around and walk away from them again, and I'll do that for five to 10 minutes, three, four times a day for a few days. And, I mean, we've taken in over 80 dogs over the last eight years, seven and a half, eight years, and to this day, there's not been a dog yet where that has not worked. And I've done it with a lot of other dogs too, but is that even if they hate people, you know, they're defensive aggressive, they're environmentally rattled, they have PTS type issues, what have you, is that that element of you getting paid and me shaping certain behaviors works on all of them. But it works the same way with people, you know, that's one of the things in terms of some of the, like, the leadership stuff that you do, is that, is that operant conditioning,

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  that positive reinforcement, you know, the four quadrants, while yes, I work primarily in the positive reinforcement realm, I do use positive punishment, I use negative reinforcement, negative punishment, but for the layman, think of it from, you know, if you're... Your spouse is out of town and you spend the weekend cleaning the entire house, right? It's spotless, you know, the kids are all in check, you know, the old lady comes home and the house is spotless. The very first thing that she recognizes is that the one thing you didn't do was take the trash out. And that's the first thing, she's like, "You didn't take the trash out? Like, I guess I'll have to do that." You know, like, that's her response. How likely are you to clean the house ever again? Very, not likely. Not likely.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Whereas, you know, on the transverse, if, you know, she grabs a hold of you and whatever, you know, or- Gives you some positive reinforcement. Gives you some positive reinforcement, maybe in another room, then, you know, that speaks for itself, you know? So, it's that same element. Start calling me Mr. Clean around here. I might have to bick your head. Yeah, you'll be cleaning the house every weekend, you know? So, it's, it's just, it's a very simple element of, you know, one of the analogies you could use too is it's the difference between slave labor and a job with great benefits. You know, at the end of the day, a task is being performed. But one, you know, the level of drive, motivation, satisfaction, happiness, on one end, they're

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  two, you know, 180-degree bipolar or disparate opposites. So, you know, it's just, it's just basic reinforcement. But if you look at everything a dog does in that, in that regard, and that, you know, every, every time that they do something that you want, it gets marked and reinforced. Every time that you, they do something you don't want, it gets extinguished and/or corrected. It's very black and white. Another quick example is toys in the house. You know, people are like, "Oh, my dog's chewing this up, chewing that up." Do you keep toys in the house? Well, yeah, he's got kongs and other balls and stuff. My, my rule of thumb and my advice to everybody is make it black and white in the dog's mind. Again, he doesn't know the difference between a tennis shoe, a stuffed animal, a Kong toy, whatever. It's all crap that's laying around your floor.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  You know, can you make them distinguish things? Yeah, but let's not put the cart before the horse. Like, teach him to respect what you say first, and so, he doesn't get to play with anything in the house. If he knows that nothing gets in his mouth inside the house, other than what I hand him, then, then it's real easy to teach him, "Don't chew on stuff. It's outside, it's in a crate, it's in a kennel, that's when I'll give you things to play with, to chew with, to tug with, whatever, and build that engagement, work on the bond and relationship, whatever."

• 1:30:48Jocko Willink?

  You have in here, when I see so-called problem dogs, the problem stems from an imbalance of power and relationship, not from the dog. So that's, that's like the root that you see all the time. The person's weak. We, we have pretty much already talked about that. And it's the same thing you see a lot with leadership, where you've got someone that's, that there's an imbalance of power. And, and where it gets more complicated with humans is humans then do their own kind of self-correct. And a lot of times, they over-correct, they under-correct. You know, if they're being too, if they're being too micromanaging, then they, they go all the way to the other side of total laissez-faire, and, and now people don't know what to do. Or if they're being too laissez-faire, then they go straight to level 12, uh, micromanagement. And again, it's just, it's just a, a, a personality

• 1:31:32Jocko Willink?

  thing, or a mistake that they're making, and it imbalances the, the relationship that we have with people. Cause it's like, well, yeah, I want you to tell me something to do. I want you to give me some guidance. I just don't want nothing. And, and people lose that. Um, here's another one. It's important to establish your authority over a dog. Dogs want, need and seek that kind of presence in their lives. You just hammer this over and over again. It's easy in some respects to get a dog to fear you, but it can be equally easy to get a dog to respect you. Just as true with human relationships, a dog will have more respect for you if you make it clear that good behavior gets rewarded and poor behavior has consequences. You may have noticed, I have not used the word like or love up until this point in describing the human canine relationship. That is not

• 1:32:15Jocko Willink?

  an accidental omission. I purposely not used those words because too far often, I encounter people whose immediate response to a dog is to try and get the animal to like them. In doing so, they make fools of themselves in dog eyes, possibly put themselves in danger because they assume that they know that how they treat their dog is okay with a different dog and mistakenly believe that because of all the nice things they do for their pet, their dog should obey their wishes and, and desires unconditionally. If you take one concept away from this, from this beginning part of the book, it's this. Don't mistake liking for respect and don't mistake obedience for trust. We could be talking about human beings right there, clearly.

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  Especially kids, you know?

• 1:32:56Jocko Willink?

  Oh, absolutely, kids.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  And employees, yeah, because it's, it's not a popularity contest, you know? Uh, and, and that's where so many parents and administrators or coaches or... Supervisors etc. go wildly wrong is worrying what somebody thinks about them. You know, and again, I mean, it's to draw back to the microcosm of the dog training process is that, you know, what's the end goal? Getting your kids or your employees or whatever to think you're cool isn't part of the process. You know, it has no relevance. Well, I mean, it has no productivity.

• 1:33:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and what's interesting, Leif used to run the JOTZ course, the junior officer training course, which is the guys, the young officers coming out of BUDS. And there was an officer, this is the other end of the spectrum, there is an officer that would come in to talk and eventually Leif had to like back the guy tactically out of the schedule because he would say, if you're an officer and your men like you, you're doing a bad job. That's not what we're talking about here, you know? It's not that you don't, it's not that you want your dog to aggressively hate you and you don't want your employees to think this guy doesn't care about me. In fact, I talked about this a little while ago, like the more you, the more you care about your people, the more they'll care about you, the better performance they deliver, right?

• 1:34:18Jocko Willink?

  If they don't think you care about them, well, then they're not going to deliver any kind of a performance other than the absolute minimum that's required.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you know, from the dog perspective, that's where, you know, there is a little bit of a difference in that with dogs, it's about engagement. You know, one of the, one of the examples I use is, you know, how many times have you been to a park, right? And you see there's, and it's usually dads, but you know, there's a dad sitting on the bench on his phone and his kids are swinging, playing tag, whatever, and he's oblivious. Like they could get kidnapped and they wouldn't know any better, unfortunately. Whereas that dad that's pushing them, that's playing tag, chasing them around, grab ass them with them, all that kind of stuff. Now, when he goes back, hey, honey, what'd you do? I took the kids to the park. But those are two disparately different experiences. Now, think about from the perception of where the kids are at the difference, like it's night and day.

• 1:35:07Speaker 01

  Same thing with a dog, you know, and that's one of the things I'm so adamantly against dog parks. Dog parks are the iPads. To dogs what iPads are to kids. You know, you can't have a substitute for that engagement with them. You know, you can't outsource your relationship. And that, and that happens way, way too often. You know, again, whether it's with kids and, you know, with dogs, whatever, like, you know, there is an element of, just like with anything, is that, you know, there's, you know, training franchises that I'm actually planning on launching here later this year to help with that process, but it is, it's an augment. You know, and there is no substitute for, for what you have with, with your dog, with your spouse, with your children, whatever. There's, there's nobody that's going to be able to, to make that work for you if you

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  don't want it, just like somebody comes in, "Make me a good, good jujitsu artist." Like, well, you gotta want it first. Like, you gotta be willing to put the time in.

• 1:36:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:00Speaker 01

  And with dogs, it's no different.

• 1:36:03Jocko Willink?

  To that point, here's, back to the book. The bottom line is that if your dog isn't doing what he is supposed to, or what you want him to, it's not the dog's fault. It's your fault.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Accountability.

• 1:36:17Jocko Willink?

  It's your fault for not spending the time needed to train him properly, or not being observant, observant enough to recognize early on when and how your relationship may be out of balance. Many people are too lazy to achieve the results they want. If having a spectacular relationship with your dog were super easy, everyone would have a, have that, and I wouldn't be writing this book right now. One common excuse I hear all the time is, "I don't have time." Well, I can assure you, you do have the time. What you don't have is your priorities in the order they need to be to have a great relationship with your dog. This is a little bit of extreme ownership for your dog, and it's something we say all the time. Your team's not doing a good job, whose fault is it? It's your fault, you're the boss. That's whose fault it is.

• 1:36:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and, and what I would hope is that, that the people that read, that read that, that, you know, that you can take that, that self-evaluation seriously, you know, and, and again, I mean, when I, when I read Extreme Ownership, I was like, yes, it's textbook, you know, it's, it's the same, same exact principles in that. You know, if you're the one in charge, guess what? You know, if it's not going well, it doesn't work down.

• 1:37:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  It's not trickle down responsibility. You know, it goes straight to the top. And that's something I'm adamant about with my employees is that, you know, if you don't understand, if you screw up within reason, it's generally going to be my fault.

• 1:37:37Jocko Willink?

  Right, right.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  You know, if you don't understand what you're supposed to do, or you know, something happened that you weren't prepared for or whatever, then ultimately it's my bad. You know, whether it's me putting the wrong person in a position to experience that or me not giving you the guidance prior to putting you in that experience to be able to deal with it. Because with dogs, it's dynamic, you know, just like in the workplace. You know, training people to work with some of these dogs that we get in, like, I mean, it's no circus. It is a circus, but it's no joke. It can be a circus, you know, but it's the same type of stuff, you know.

• 1:38:08Jocko Willink?

  You talk about building relationships here, going back to the book. Working, in my training of working dogs, I still put myself in the dog's position and understand that it was important to establish a positive rapport with that animal before I began making too many demands on him.

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  So, this is the crux, really, of where, I wouldn't say, you know, nothing that's in this book or anything that I subscribe to is not anything new. You know, I mean, people have domesticated animals for thousands of years. What I will say is that I generally don't find people spending as much time on that simple component as much as I do. And this is where I draw from my time with hard-driven, dominant working dogs that are biting people. When you get in a bite suit and you're working a dog and developing him, no different than you'd bring up a young fighter, is that that is what a decoy's job is to do, is to build confidence.

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  And with dogs, you know, the nice thing is, is that when it comes to aggression, prey and defense are two sides of the same coin. You know, just like reproducing, reproduction and killing are two sides of the same coin.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  Is that when I'm, when I'm in that suit and I'm reading that dog, I'm, I'm exuding all of these things on him. I'm either making him uncomfortable and putting him in defensive drive. And then when he responds the way that I want, gives me, you know, aggressive, responds in kind with aggression, I, I go back into prey drive, take all that pressure off and reward him coming forward. I'm teaching him to fight me and, and come forwardly aggressive. Um, but the, the way that, that I have been able to develop, uh, that same strategy with pet dogs is because when you're in a suit and dealing with these dogs that are on a, a level 12 out of 10 by comparison to the pet dogs we deal with, is that, you know, you have to be so, uh, over, overblown or, um, so dramatic with, with how you're doing it to be able to

• 1:40:11Speaker 01

  affect these dogs that now when you're dealing with pet dogs, it's, it's actually really easy. Uh, but what, what it made me realize is just that same concept works the exact same way with those dogs is that, is that entering that dog's mind and getting that relationship first, before you have that, you are completely wasting your time doing anything else. Uh, again, no different than, you know, if you're a boss with employees or, uh, you know, a, a military, uh, leader or, uh, pick anything, is that if, if there isn't trust and relationship there first as the foundation, you're, you're building a, a shanty on, on sand, you know, in terms of, of everything else you try to do that without that, uh, you're, you're essentially

• 1:40:55Speaker 01

  wasting your time. And, and so I, I hammer so hard on the relationship component because it is, it's, I mean, that, that's a universal truth in life.

• 1:41:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And it escalates too. The more you build that relationship, the more you can demand. And of course, in a relationship, you're not demanding from people, but the more you build a relationship, the more you can ask for someone to give to you and the more they'll do for you because you have a good relationship with them.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Sure. And, and there's, there's also a reason, especially on my online training, the, the first five months, there's no corrections whatsoever. There's no punishment. There's, there's nothing. It's all bonding, relationship building and reinforcement and shaping behavior. That's not by accident. The reason why is that a lot of times people, they don't have a relationship with the dog. The dog's getting into X or doing Y or whatever. Let's put a prong collar, a remote collar on, let's punish him. A lot of people do that. There's training franchises that, that the backbone is using remote collars, which I, I vehemently disagree with. And it's not about, uh, a cruelty thing. It's about an understanding is that. If I have a great relationship with that dog, and again, you know, the work environment, whatever, spouse, and then we've gone the full run of shaping and reinforcing desired

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  behaviors, and I have clearly communicated to him and positively taught him what the expectations are now, when he's not performing up to that standard, now if I correct him and punish him, guess how much more effective it is? You know, because at first, it's, you're just, you're just some other jerk that's putting your knee in my rib cage, or electrocuting me, or, you know, jerking me off my feet with a prong collar, just like all the rest of them. Whereas now, it's like your dad saying, "I'm disappointed in you." You're, "What?" You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a lot more impactful that way, you know, so it means more.

• 1:42:38Jocko Willink?

  Dogs, back to the book, dogs respect confidence, power, and authority. And by dogs, I mean all dogs. I don't care how much of an alpha role any dog has assumed, when someone comes along who exhibits those three traits to a greater degree than they, they will step aside.

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  With the exception of the four that I've come across. But, you know, those, those are dogs that I can assure you that nobody on the, in the 83 million dog owner pet spectrum have ever run into. You know, these are unicorns, for sure.

• 1:43:06Jocko Willink?

  What'd you do with those dogs?

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  Um, bred some of them. Um, one of them was out on the west coast, actually, as, as a working dog, just retired here not, not too long ago. Um, if I had to pick probably the most gifted, physically, across the board, dog I've ever come across, it was a dog that was out there for several years, that came in, we put him through his first handler course, um, then he deployed and did several deployments, and uh, just, I mean, he's a freak. You know, absolute freak. But, um, the first, here's a funny story. The first time I met him, so we're running our handler course at Auburn University at their Canine Detection Research Institute, back when it was still in, in progress, this was in 2011, we brought the dog in, and uh...

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  We were staying at a local hotel there and it's eight week handler course putting the dog through and my very first introduction to him is he was staying in the room with his handler and they'd spent some time together and had started the bond and it was like Holiday Inn Express, they had free pizza and so of course I'm like, I'm not gonna pass up free pizza. So I've got a paper plate with a couple pieces of pie on it and I walk into the room, the dog just kinda cocks his head, looks at me, runs over and literally like a dude, like a team guy, jumps up and just bap and just slaps it right out of my hand. And he leans down and starts eating it and then I started to lean down and he just looks up and I've been around enough dogs where like, I was like, you know, I'm just gonna let you eat that.

• 1:44:33Jocko Willink?

  Enjoy that pizza.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that one's on me buddy and.

• 1:44:37Jocko Willink?

  The first time I saw our dogs working and I forget who brought them out, we were doing some training and you know, it was set up, but the tasking, it was doing a hit in a building and there was a guy that was gonna run, a decoy was gonna run and I was out there and man, when they, so I see the decoy go and you see the dog sees it and the dog, you can feel it, man. This dog is ready to murder this guy as if this is just the most insane level of passion and he's just on the end of that thing and you can see the handler's letting it build, letting it build, letting it build. He pulls that quick release, bro. I was like, oh my god. It was insane to watch him fire off and he

• 1:45:22Jocko Willink?

  took off like 10 feet to when he finally got, like he's going a million miles an hour across this field. He takes off about 10 feet and just nails this guy, drags him to the ground. I was like, okay, this is a good little system to implement here.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, from a, the neat thing about it, I think capability wise, is that it's, you know, it's a, it's a non-lethal form of, of capture, you know, which is obviously very valuable. The deterrent aspect, the psychological intimidation factor.

• 1:45:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a real beautiful thing too.

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  You know, there's, there's a lot of elements to have in those dogs. There's, there's just, you know, it's amazing. You see it especially in law enforcement, you know, but you'll have guys that will literally stand there with six armed officers and fight all six of them, you know, drawn on, getting tased, pepper sprayed. You throw the 65-pound pointy-eared little Malinois out and the dude lays straight down. He's like, "I'm not messing with that dog."

• 1:46:17Jocko Willink?

  I'm done with it.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  You know, and yeah, it's amazing. I mean, but you know, you think about it from, again, from the human component of it's not natural to be attacked by an animal, you know, nor is it something that most people, A, are comfortable with, B, have ever experienced. Most people have mixed it up, especially if they're getting drawn on by six officers. It's probably not their first fistfight, you know, but so, yeah, I mean, that, that element of it is, is pretty, is pretty awesome.

• 1:46:44Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. The lax, permissive attitude that exists in our schools, our homes, and our society in general has trickled down into how we interact with our pets. While there are some benefits to our living in a kinder and gentler society, there are also some huge drawbacks. This is particularly, this is particularly true as it pertains to dogs. Some people believe that it's impossible to have a well-trained dog and to never have to physically correct that dog. I wish that were true, but it's not the case. Let me be clear, I don't employ and I don't advocate the use of any kind of unnecessary force. But please understand this important point. If all you ever do is reward your dog for good behavior and, and you have no consequence for bad behavior, then your dog will not have a complete understanding of what's expected of it. So, when you were talking

• 1:47:27Jocko Willink?

  about, you know, the, the fact that you sometimes do have to use a, a pinch collar, you have to use a choke collar, you might have to use a, a digit, what's it, a remote collar. You might have to do that stuff. In fact, you probably will.

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, there, I mean, there's, there's always the chance. I mean, the, the best way I can kind of break it down is, is think of it from raising kids, or again, employees. Like, if, if the, if the consequence is, is the absence of reward, that's, you know, you, yes, you may come across a dog, but again, this is an outlier, exception, anomaly, whatever coin phrase you want to use. Those aren't realistic aspirations to have with a dog, like, just like with kids, like, "Yeah, hey, if you don't clean your room, you're not going to get those peanut M&Ms." "Okay, well, I'll go do it." They may be like, "You know what? I'd rather not have peanut M&Ms and just not clean my room. Now what are you going to do about it?" You know, like, you're going to run into that as a dad.

• 1:48:20Jocko Willink?

  Shock collar.

• 1:48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, two of them. Cattle prod, you know, so. The, you know, that, it's a bit of an oversimplification in terms of, you know, what it really boils down to is, is, you know, when, how, how often, you know, things like that. I mean, it really is not so much a matter of if, it's when. It's just being smart about how you're implementing it so that A, it's effective. I mean, kind of my rules of thumb for implementing compulsion or positive punishment is, is that it's not when you're emotional about it. It's not when the dog does not understand why it's happening. And then the last thing is that the instant that the behavior has ceased, the punishment has to also. What

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  you find a lot of times, most times, and especially early on, if that relationship hasn't been built and that foundation isn't there, again, I can't explain anything to a dog. A lot of, a lot of people, you know, we all have our expectations. I know I want the dog to sit. I don't want him to grab sandwiches. I don't want him to knock the kids over. I don't want him to bark when it's three in the morning unless there's somebody breaking in. He doesn't know any of that, you know, so we have to teach them. And if you, again, just like with the human component, if you're trying to teach somebody something and they don't understand what's expected of them and you're punishing them for not understanding it, that sucks, you know, and that's unfortunately, that's how most dogs go about their lives is that, you know, I don't have a relationship with this dog. Let me throw a prong collar, an e-collar on him and make him do these things and he just shuts down. He's aversive to it.

• 1:49:49Jocko Willink?

  Talk about that drill where you put the e-collar on people?

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:54Jocko Willink?

  And you have him do a little task?

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's a real simple, you know, it dovetails on to this, you know, this kind of principle is that, you know, again, so that, so that you can put yourself in a dog's shoes is that, and so what I do when I run handler courses, you know, let's say it's you two, I'm gonna have, you know, you be the handler, Echo is the dog, so we're gonna put the e-collar on his bicep.

• 1:50:14Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:50:15Speaker 01

  I'm gonna take you out into the next room. Roger that. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna take you out in the room and say, okay, we're gonna come back in here and I want you to get Echo to take this echelon front thing, put this here and put that there. That's his, his task.

• 1:50:28Jocko Willink?

  So it's, for those of you that are listening, it's like a menial task. It's put a pencil and a paper clip onto a box and they're gonna be sitting on the table in the middle of the room, all separate from each other.

• 1:50:37Speaker 01

  And there's a bunch of other stuff.

• 1:50:38Jocko Willink?

  There's a bunch of other crap here.

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  So when we come back in, now you don't say anything to him.

• 1:50:42Jocko Willink?

  We're not allowed to talk.

• 1:50:43Speaker 01

  And, and so now Echo just starts grabbing stuff. And every time he grabs the Sharpie, he gets shocked. He grabs the... The T, he gets shocked. He grabs the knife, he gets shocked. He messes with the paper, he gets shocked. After five or six, maybe 10, you know, he's a strong guy, can take some punishment, you crank it up. He's not getting it, he's messing with the wrong stuff, I'm gonna hammer him harder. What's he gonna do? Very quickly, he's gonna do this. He's just gonna sit here and say, "I'm not touching anything anymore." He becomes aversive to all the stimulus, stimuli on the desk. On the transverse, and so what that teaches you is that if your dog doesn't understand that, that's what happens. And that's the position you're putting your dog in, is the very one you're in, and it sucks, so don't do it. Is that you've gotta explain to him what you want, and you do that through shaping and reinforcing.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  And so, the transverse is now we go out, we pick a different drill.

• 1:51:33Speaker 01

  And we come back in, and now you have a clicker. With humans, you can say, "Hey, the click means that it's good." With dogs, obviously, you have to pair something to it, but...

• 1:51:42Jocko Willink?

  Clicking a treat.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, you click and give him a jelly bean or whatever. But, so now you come in, and the only absence of that is when he grabs the Sharpie now, and that's not part of the drill, nothing happens. Very quickly, the dog will do what's called "learns through self-discovery," and they start to offer behaviors. You probably see it in your dog sometimes, when they just start doing stuff, looking at you. If you have something, and they start doing arbitrary movements, they're trying to figure out what it's gonna take for them to do to get what they want, that you have. And so, now you wait, and once he grabs what you want, you mark it. And so now he's like, "Okay, well, it's something with this." And now it's fun, it's a game, and he's trying to figure it out, his mind's working, it's positive, everybody's having fun.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  The first example, it sucks, you know, it's painful, it's stressful, there's cortisol, it's chaotic. And again, that dog's A plus B equals C.

• 1:52:32Jocko Willink?

  And you say the percentage of success in the first method is zero?

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  Zero. I have not ever done that, and I've done it god knows how many times. I have never done that experiment where somebody successfully performed that task, not one time. On the transverse, I'd say, the only time where they haven't been successful is due to brevity, is that it's taking longer. But they either get really close, or they finish it. And everybody's laughing, you know, because the whole rest of the class is watching, and they're usually laughing during the e-collar one. You know, but it paints a very clear picture, because a lot of times, people, they have not put theirself in the dog's shoes. Again, just like with leadership, is you gotta relate, you gotta understand... How it's gonna impact people when you're implementing different protocols or procedures or leadership principles, what does that look like on the other side?

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  You know, it doesn't matter if it makes sense to me, it doesn't matter if it seems sound to me, if they view it as like, well, this is crap, it's unfair, it's whatever. It may be, but you've gotta, you've gotta figure out how to manipulate it so that they understand, A, what the expectations are, B, what the consequences are, and then C, ultimately, what, what comes from both of those depending on what they choose to do. And that's, to me, that's the beauty of operant conditioning with, with dog training is that you're, you're letting the dog dictate the consequence. And no different than with any of us, they enjoy it, you know, and it stimulates their mind, which they need, which is another benefit to bonding and relationship with them is because if you're the one stimulating their mind, guess what, now they wanna hang out with you more, they will listen to you more.

• 1:54:03Speaker 01

  Your, your blue chip bank just gets overloaded because they've had so many positive experiences where they've had different things that's desirable on your end that doesn't mean anything to them, but they're just trying things out and now they do it and it gets marked and rewarded and it's fun, it's a game, and it's just, it's a, it's a self-replicating process that, that has a ton of benefits for, for you and the dog.

• 1:54:24Jocko Willink?

  I thought this part was interesting, you're just, and it's important to know as well, to understand dogs a little bit better. A dog's sense of smell is somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000, 1,000 times as sensitive as our own. There's a PBS television show, Nova, where a guy named James Walker, and this is a quote from the book, he said, "If you make the analogy to vision, what you and I can see at a third of a mile, a dog could see more than 3,000 miles away." And there's another example, Alexandra Horowitz, the author of Inside a Dog, did something similar but kept the comparison in the olfactory realm. "You can tell when your coffee has tea or sugar in it by taking a sip of it.

• 1:55:06Jocko Willink?

  A dog could sense that same teaspoon of sugar diluted in a million gallons of water just by using his nose." That's insane.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and from a, so there's two reasons why that's important. On the working dog side, it's pretty, it's pretty clear to see the benefits that that has in terms of, you know, sniffing explosives that are buried and detecting people that are hidden in false floors and tracking people and things of that nature. On the, on the pet dog side, where that comes into play is that, is that same, you know, from a relationship standpoint, is that they recognize you by the way you smell, they recognize your kids by the way they smell in terms of, of training, interacting with them, using treats, rewards, toys, things of that nature, it, you know, it plays big, big dividends or pays big dividends too.

• 1:55:57Speaker 01

  So, it's just one more component that, you know, the, the reason that the, that the book is called The Navy SEAL Way, and I, if there's one thing I could say that I wish I had done a better job with, was kind of relaying why, why that is, is that, you know, when I think about our reputation and our efficacy and success as a community since it's inception, why is that, you know? And it's, it's everything that's in this book just related to dogs. It's, well, it comes by selection, you know, have, have a very stringent selection process. But then above and beyond that, you know, SEALs don't have the, the success and reputation because, because they're good shots, or in good shape, or have great intelligence, or

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  have some of the best platforms and augments in terms of close air support, ISR, whatever. It's because they have all of those things. You know, it's, it's managing the, every single intangible that you can possibly manipulate and control and stack that deck in your favor. So, it's not just training, it's not just selecting the right dog, it's not just feeding them good food, it's not just keeping them in good physical condition and an ideal body weight, it, it's not any one, you know, component of that, it's all of them. And so that, The Navy SEAL Way, it's, it's more about us on a, on a, on a big scale in terms of how, how we've gotten to, to where we've gotten and by using all of those same, same concepts, you know, and I used all of those same concepts as a trainer in terms

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  of, my selection process is, is god awful. You know, there's times where we would go on, on... On trips to find dogs and since then even where, you know, I may look at dozens or even hundreds of them to find one, you know, you know, I would say probably attrition rates are even even worse than than Bud's, you know, I mean, you may have a fraction of a percentage or in the single digit percentage of dogs that I look at that actually end up making it so, you know, but it's that crux of, and again, same same with business, it's like, it's not just having good accounting, it's not just having good leadership, it's not good, just having good recruiting, it's not just having good budgeting and funding, it's all of those things. And when you manipulate the environment and stack the deck in your

• 1:58:08Speaker 01

  favor, make things very consistent and black and white, have an ideal, have an idea in your mind of what that finished product is and be able to visualize that, know where you're at, develop a plan and execute it. Again, it just goes back to the the microcosm that dog training is that that mimics life, but.

• 1:58:26Jocko Willink?

  Talk about this thing in the book, you talk about look for the intelligence behind a mistake. What do you mean by that? So I found that pretty cool.

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the, you know, the intelligence behind the mistake is essentially a teaching moment, you know, is that understand why it was made. Ultimately, it's you as the handler's fault for why mistakes are made, but but understand why the dog made the mistake, you know, and it could be, you know, it's generally gonna gonna be reduced down to lack of communication on your part, a confusion of expectations on the dog's.

• 1:59:00Jocko Willink?

  Same with humans, same with humans, both those, same with humans.

• 1:59:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, and then the last thing, which is probably one of the most imperative things, same with humans, is is bringing emotion into the the equation. Dogs are, while they have some simple emotions that mimic humans, they're nowhere near as complex. One of the jokes I start a lot of my speeches out with is. If you want to find out who loves you more, your spouse or your dog, lock both of them in the trunk of your car for two hours. After two hours, come pop the trunk, who's happier to see you? And, you know, a dog would be like, "Hey, buddy, where you been?" You know, your wife's gonna slap the hell out of you, so... But they are that simple, you know, and it's an Achilles' heel of sorts. We were talking about it before we came on air, is the iPhone. You know, that's really...

• 1:59:45Speaker 01

  Dogs are actually so simple that we as humans, because we're so much more complicated in how we think and emotionally charged and what have you, that we make them way more complicated and harder to train than they actually are. It's a... We need to oversimplify it. And to me, not to get too far off on a tangent, but it's kinda like world policy, you know, foreign policy from an international standpoint, is that sometimes the simplest solutions are the best for the most complex problems, you know? Foreign policy being a bar fight, you know? If you're gonna walk into that bar, you're gonna get in a fight, you know? And you better bring everything to bear to make sure that you're safe. But realize that by walking in there, no matter whose side you take, no matter what

• 2:00:28Speaker 01

  happens, you're gonna create at least one enemy, probably several. You know, so you better make damn sure that going into that bar is worth going into before you go into it. To me, that's a pretty simple solution. It's a simple way to look at the world's problems. We don't do that, you know? We overcomplicate it, but it's that same mentality with a dog, though, is that, you know, most times, it's the most simple solution to what you think or perceive is the most complex problem, and it's really not that complicated.

• 2:00:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, you talk... You go through a whole section that's about reading your dog and what signals to look for. And it's the same thing with people, you know, you gotta learn how to read people, but you talk about their eyes, you talk about their ears, what their ears are doing, you talk about what their tail... These are all things you told me when I was getting my dog, is, you know, things to look for, and, man, they were spot on, just looking at their posture. Interestingly, we just had Jordan Peterson on, and we talked a lot about posture. He's got a new book out called 12 Rules for Life, and the first chapter, this is how to live your life, the first chapter is, "Stand up straight with your shoulders back." And it's like, yeah, and you can see that in dogs, and you can see that, you know, in the way that you stand around your dog, you've already talked about that a bunch today, but

• 2:01:39Jocko Willink?

  just to make sure that you have good posture, as like, simple as that might sound. And what do you look for in the posture of a dog?

• 2:01:49Speaker 01

  So this is where it depends on what the um.

• 2:01:52Jocko Willink?

  What you're looking for.

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  What the end goal is, you know, if I'm looking for a pet, then I probably don't want a cocky scorpion tail, ears up, chest out, looking like King Kong and like he owns the place. For a good, strong working dog, yeah, I want a dog that's gonna make, make my back end pucker by grabbing a leash and opening his gate and clipping it to it like this dog's making me a little nervous because he's walking around looking at me like, I don't sweat you. That's one of the biggest misconceptions is growling, um, you know, people think, you know, growling, growling is weakness. Growling is, is being scared, um, and it's peacock feathers essentially, it's a, it's a dog's way of saying, you're making me uncomfortable, I'm gonna do this in hopes that it makes you, you know, it calls your bluff and backs you down. Um, when I see a dog that growls, I know I can get in his head faster than a dog that's standing there looking at me with his tail

• 2:02:37Speaker 01

  just feathering a little bit with his eyes pinpointed, you know, non, non dilated pupils and, and looking at me like, dude, bring it. And, uh, you know, that's the dog I worry about, not the dog growling with his, with his hair up and, and his ears back and his, and his lips curled, you know, that dog, I know I, I can run him if, if need be, but, um, it's just a matter of, of grabbing a hold of yourself and saying, let's, we're gonna do the man dance and I'm coming after you. And 99 times out of 100, that dog doesn't want anything to do with it, but, you know, for, for a pet, you know, again, it depends on, you know, am I active, do I want a dog that's gonna play a deterrent role in terms of protection, and you know, do I just want an active companion, do I want a docile dog that, you know, my kids can snuggle with, you know, so to me, again, just like with the, uh, kind of the, the,

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  the macrocosm of, you know, what, what do you want out of the dog, you know, let that drive your decision and work backwards from there, but, um.

• 2:03:29Jocko Willink?

  But I think the key point is here, know that there's traits or visual clues that you can look for that indicate what kind of a dog, what kind of personality the dog has.

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:03:39Jocko Willink?

  And if you don't know those, and you just go to a random place, and you pick the dog that came up to you fastest and was wiggling, or the dog that was all shy and looked so cute in the corner, there's consequences to getting those dogs, and they're, they're all over the place, and if you don't know what you're getting, you're wrong.

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and you know, the conversation that we had before you selected yours, you know, the. You hear a lot of things. People say, oh, turn the dog upside down or put him on his back and see if he's calm, you know, and there's people that, if he's calm, that's the one you want. If he's active, that's the one you want. To me, it's all crap, honestly. What I like to do is, just like in any other selection process, I want to take the dog out of his comfort zone and now see how he reacts. His comfort zone is where he's been raised, where he's been living, with his littermates, with his mom. You know, if you go to a breeder's house and you evaluate a puppy with the litter running around and the mom standing there, you are not getting an accurate representation of what that dog's genetic components are,

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  not even close. There are so many things that have been smoked and mirrored in the dog's benefit. He's going to look much stronger and better and active and drive-ier and dominant and whatever than he truly is. If you want to really see that dog at his genetic face value, take him somewhere where you know he hasn't been by himself.

• 2:04:54Jocko Willink?

  You told me Home Depot, which I think is a great, because there's things going on in Home Depot. There's noises, there's a bunch of people running around, there's other dogs in there, there's kids, there's all kinds of chaos going on in the Home Depot.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you'll find out about a dog's environmental nerve faster than anything there, you know, and so, but it can be anywhere busy. It could be a parking lot, it could be Walmart, it could be an airport, I mean, wherever you can find it.

• 2:05:16Jocko Willink?

  Home Depot is going to get flooded with test dogs. By the way, just FYI, test dogs, like the little puppies, they're not potty trained yet. So FYI for everyone here. Here's a cool story you put in here, back to the book. Carlos came to my care several years ago. He was seven years old at the time, but he had to retire from the teams. During an operation in Iraq on a raid that resulted in an intense firefight, he and his handler approached a building suspected of housing cached munitions. Just short of the entryway, a remotely detonated IED threw the pair back several yards. Carlos broke his back and his hind legs and hips and collapsed his sinuses and his lungs. For privacy reasons,

• 2:05:59Jocko Willink?

  I can't go to the injuries his handler sustained, other than to say that they were extensive. Medical personnel acted quickly and both the dog and the handler survived. Carlos nearly prevented that emergency treatment from being initiated. Despite the severity of his injuries, he crawled to his handler's side and took up a defensive perimeter near his fallen comrade. No one trained Carlos to do that. He did it for one reason: loyalty.

• 2:06:28Speaker 01

  And that, you know, that can't be taught, you know, just like it can't be in people. It can be reinforced, you know, it can be conditioned, tweaked a little bit one way or another. It can be broken for sure. But that is, in my opinion, a primal genetically inherited trait that either exists or it doesn't, just like with heart, you know, and that's, that's something that's excruciatingly rare, obviously, both in humans and in dogs. And it's one of the, one of the ways I test a dog is, is that, is I want to test their heart and see if, if when push comes to shove, if they, if they want to fight me, you know? And Carlos was, was a warrior of, of the highest magnitude, no doubt about it. You know, he spent several years with us and then ended up, I retired him to a dog friend

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  of mine in Florida that had him for a little while. And the last picture I got him, got of him was watching the Super Bowl, laying on a leather couch with a con in his mouth, a couple of weeks before he died.

• 2:07:23Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 2:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, he got, got the full spectrum, got the full retirement.

• 2:07:27Jocko Willink?

  Good deal. You know, dogs possess, here, back to the book, dogs possess the capability to be loyal. Capability to be loyal. A dog owner, as a dog owner, you should not take that loyalty for granted or exploit it. You should work to give your dog a reason to be the most loyal to you he can possibly be. I mean, does that not go 100% with human beings as well? It's, it's, you know, let your dog know that he can trust you. Yeah, be a leader. Make sure people know that they can trust you. I mean, come on, here's another interesting little story you got in here. So you got a guy, Bob, who, whenever he's working on his car, he loses his temper, goes crazy, throws tools around. He doesn't know why his dog doesn't, you know, like it. Back to the book, when Bob lost his cool, even though Bob didn't direct any of his anger

• 2:08:12Jocko Willink?

  at his dog, Rudy, the dog, wanted no part of that scenario. Maybe Rudy was more sensitive to those kind of responses than other dogs might have been, but Rudy basically lost respect for Bob. Bob was the guy he expected to be in command and in control, and he wasn't. What made things worse for Bob was that he knew that was the case. So, so the reason I pulled that one out is because, again, I talk about all the time, hey, if you lose your, if you lose your temper as a leader, you're, you're, you're weak. You're, you're gonna look weak. You're gonna appear to be weak and, and some people can't control their temper and that's just wrong. But even a dog, even a dog will look at a leader that loses his temper and go, okay, I can't, I can't, I'm not following you.

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  Well, to me, I would say not, not so much even a dog. I would say especially.

• 2:08:57Jocko Willink?

  Well, there you go.

• 2:08:58Speaker 01

  You know, because it's, you know, I, I can't, I can't talk to my dog and say, hey, sorry about that. I lost my cool. It's not gonna happen again. You know, I'm still your boss, but, uh, you know, let's, let me make it up to you, you know, whatever. Not, not that that's how you'd approach it anyway, but, but my point is, is that, you know, you, you have that, that A plus B equals C, uh, principle in everything, you know? It's whether it's shaping behavior that you desire, it's, uh, eliminating, uh, undesirable problem behaviors that you've inadvertently created. It's, uh, you know, breaking, um, breaking trust and, and ruining relationships. You know, one of the things that I, I like to tell people, uh, and again, it's with, with, you know, human relationships also is that trust is like a piece of paper. Uh, and when, when you break it, it's crumpling it up into a ball, you know?

• 2:09:43Speaker 01

  You, you can flatten it back out. You can iron it. You can get it real close, but it will, will never be the same. You know, if, if you truly break it, you know, the way that a lot of people do, um, be careful with that, you know, cause it, you only get one, one crack at ruining it and then, uh, and then you're, you're faced with an uphill battle. The nice thing with dogs, where they're more forgiving and, and pliable mentally than, uh, than our human.

• 2:10:07Jocko Willink?

  You put them in the trunk of the car for a couple hours and you're still all right.

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:12Jocko Willink?

  Then you, the, the transverse of that is that is if you show your dog that you're unflappable and you consistently project an image of authority, then your dog will understand you can count on you. So, so don't lose your temper and don't do that as a leader either. Here's another one that you throw in. Rewards like corrections should be proportional. The surest way to reduce the effectiveness of a reward is to overuse it. Uh, that's obviously true with people as well. First of all, if you're, if you're not just with your punishment and somebody makes a small mistake and you hammer them destructively, that's not helping you. And at the same time, if everything that they do good, you're jumping up and down like a cheerleader, that's not gonna do you any good either. Same with a dog.

• 2:10:52Speaker 01

  Sure. And, uh, you know, the, the other thing, the, the varying the reward schedule, um,

• 2:10:57Speaker 02

  And also, there's times where-

• 2:10:59Jocko Willink?

  He echoes all into variable rewards.

• 2:11:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:01Jocko Willink?

  Right? Isn't there some kinda psychological thing?

• 2:11:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:04Speaker 01

  With dogs, it's an, it's an excruciating-

• 2:11:06Jocko Willink?

  You told me about something with, with iPhones, though.

• 2:11:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:11:10Jocko Willink?

  Like, you're looking for the little thing to pop up?

• 2:11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:12Jocko Willink?

  And you think, maybe this is the message from, from-

• 2:11:15Speaker 02

  Whoever.

• 2:11:16Jocko Willink?

  From the president.

• 2:11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:18Jocko Willink?

  This could be the one.

• 2:11:19Speaker 02

  Could be the one, yeah.

• 2:11:20Jocko Willink?

  Instead, it's just an advertisement for something.

• 2:11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, sometimes. But one day, it is a message from the president. And that keeps you in the game.

• 2:11:26Jocko Willink?

  Keeps you in the game.

• 2:11:27Speaker 01

  How many of those have you gotten?

• 2:11:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:32Jocko Willink?

  So you use variable rewards with the dogs?

• 2:11:34Speaker 01

  So with, with, uh, with training, it's kinda, again, it just falls into a cumulative process. At first, it's every time, you know, so that there's the consistency, so that, that, that's the explanation of the expectation. Is that you do this, you get that. You do this, you get that, until now, it's, it's wired. Once it's wired, now, it becomes, just like if every time, you pick anything, pick anything you like, you know. Every Friday, we're having steak and ice cream. Like, after a while, it's like, nah, steak and ice cream again. So that, that dog will get to a point where now, it's, actually, we're not having steak and ice cream, we're having tofu burgers. Joke's on you. Right? He's like, wait, what? You know, so now, whatever it took that week to get steak and ice cream on Friday, maybe I'm gonna work a little harder.

• 2:12:16Speaker 01

  And you, you'll see that out of them. And so, and this is more on the, on the competitive side, but, you know. When you're judged on, on flashiness and precision and speed of execution when it comes to different behavioral, uh, components of obedience routines. And people wanna speed those up and make them more laser-like in their precision, that's a very effective way to do it, is that now, sometimes you get it, sometimes you don't. So now, the dog is, it's the lottery mentality of doing scratch offs, you know, I mean, nobody wins the, the, the Powerball, but the scratch offs, it's like, ah, you know.

• 2:12:45Jocko Willink?

  Made twelve bucks.

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I can almost buy what I just spent on them. You know, I almost got my money back, let me buy them again. But, but we're, you know, human beings are wired that same way. How many people waste their money on scratch offs? A bunch of them. Uh, for that same reason. It's, it's a, it's a psychological aspect that, that actually is very powerful in a dog. But the, the caveat to that is that, you know, make sure that it's, it's an ingrained, conditioned response before you start doing that.

• 2:13:12Speaker 01

  But yeah, it is powerful. In terms of the flooding, um, when I, when I'm bridging certain things together, like if I want to go from, you know, I'll teach a dog to recall, which has come to me first. When I'm teaching him to, to get his back end into, you know, his shoulder hits my knee, starting at kind of a healing position in the sitting position, that's one component. And then actually walking off and, and starting to heal. When I want to bridge all that together, so, you know, if I just give him the, the, what I call plots command, which is Dutch for place, is that the dog, you know, it, it does all of that. You know, he comes here, he gets into the plots and then we, and then we heal off, basically. When, when I bridge certain things together, if I've been building a couple of different components, then when, when it clicks the very first time, I'll

• 2:13:55Speaker 01

  flood five, six, seven rewards all, all right at, at, at once, so that he's like, oh payday, it's a jackpot. Uh, and again.

• 2:14:03Jocko Willink?

  Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding.

• 2:14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's, it's kind of a, almost a successive approximation in terms of, you know, teaching different, different steps. No different than in jujitsu. Um, different elements of a move or whatever. And then once it's paired all together, now they get the tap out and they're like, sweet, you know, same, same type, type of thing.

• 2:14:21Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Ding ding ding ding ding ding. Uh, back to the book, beware that your dog has no concept of what words mean. In other words, if you repeatedly say the word down, as in down, down, down, your dog will associate that more lengthy expression as his cue to lie down. Keep it simple and clear. Simple, clear, concise language. I did the, you talk about in the book, I did the broccoli thing with my, with my dog, with my wife, and she was all shocked. You know, cause I was like, hey, your dog, you know, even though you think your dog knows what you're saying, he actually has no idea. And then you, you talk about in the book, and I did it with my dog, uh, yesterday. I said, hey, our dog has no idea what he's, what we're saying. She says, what do you mean? So I said, he doesn't know what sit means. She says, what do you mean? I said, watch this. And so I gave him the come, he came over and I said broccoli, and he sat right down,

• 2:15:06Jocko Willink?

  just like I had said sit. And she was all looking all confused. And I said, yeah, that's right. These dogs don't know what, it's, it, but it's the body language and it's the expectations. And whatever little subtle cues I have when I want him to sit, I did it. And I just, the word came out of my mouth was broccoli.

• 2:15:20Speaker 01

  Context, hundred percent. You know, what, do, dogs are, you know, the, the beauty of dogs is, is how powerful context, the Achilles heel is also context for that same reason, but. Yeah, it's important to make that distinction. That's where, you know, using that shaping of behavior is your best friend in terms of, you know, like I said, I use a classroom. You know, there's a reason why libraries and classrooms are the environments that they are. So when we teach our kids what we want them to know, it's a distraction-free environment. It's, you know, a positive learning experience. It's a Petri dish for education. When you try to do things where, you know, the dog is in the house and doing all these other things, you know, there's all these other stimuli going on and it's distracting

• 2:16:05Speaker 01

  and the dog's not picking it up and it's not building that context. So I use a 40 by 40 training classroom. It's just a fenced-in area with nothing in it. And we go in there and I just stand there and wait for him to start doing stuff. And then I mark it and reward it and shape it. And then from there, I start to shape a little micro nuanced, you know, the dog just turns his head, you know, a fraction of a degree, one direction. I mark that and reward it. If I'm trying to teach a place command, he looks at the bed. I mark it and reward it. He takes one step, I mark and reward it. And I just build on that over and over and over. And the neat thing is, once the dogs kind of have to learn how to learn that way, you'll see that light bulb go on as soon as they understand, okay, you have what I want and I have to earn it. I have to figure out what it's going to take to get it.

• 2:16:48Speaker 01

  And they start to offer these, or offer behaviors through self-discovery, then that is when you own their mind and you can teach them anything. And that's one of the first things I teach is a place command for that simple reason alone, is that it's so powerful in a dog. If he can look at me and he goes, dude has what I want and I have to actually go away from it to get it, then it's on.

• 2:17:11Jocko Willink?

  Huge step. And I know this question's going to get asked all the time, but you put it in here. Not only is it possible to teach your dogs to perform tricks, but I believe you should, regardless of the dog's age. So you can, in fact, teach an old dog new tricks.

• 2:17:27Speaker 01

  That's right. Everybody's question.

• 2:17:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, everywhere.

• 2:17:30Speaker 01

  How old? What about puppy?

• 2:17:32Jocko Willink?

  Do you, do you fill up the hard drive at some point where they can't learn anything new without forgetting something else?

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  Not any more than any of us. You know, they can learn, they can, they will continue to learn. And to me... One of the reasons dogs, as with people, expire earlier than they probably need to is because of lack of that stimulation, that mental stimulation. You know, even if the mind, or even if the body can't, can't perform, there's a lot of other ways that you can get dogs to stimulate their mind and keep them younger and healthier and happier than, than just letting them expire on a dog bed, you know, five feet away from you.

• 2:18:08Jocko Willink?

  Letting your heart get too much in the way of your head and what's best for your dog will end up causing that heart more pain in the long run. Discipline equals freedom.

• 2:18:19Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 2:18:20Jocko Willink?

  Right? I mean, if you have an undisciplined dog, that dog's gonna be miserable, you're gonna be miserable, everything sucks.

• 2:18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:25Jocko Willink?

  Pretty much.

• 2:18:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it, like I said, I mean, the, that's one of my big goals moving into this year is, is basically starting like a shelter campaign of signing up for the online training, saving a dog, and we're gonna be launching it here real soon, but, you know, I, I firmly believe, you know, whether you wanna call it a calling or whatever, is that, you know, my goal is to, is to revolutionize how your average, everyday dog owner views, communicates with, and interacts with their dog.

• 2:18:56Jocko Willink?

  Because how many dogs a year get sent to the pound?

• 2:18:59Speaker 01

  3.3 million dogs every year get surrendered to shelters across this country, and it varies year to year, but usually between 680 and 750,000 dogs a year get euthanized. It's over 2,000 dogs every day getting put to sleep in this country, even at those numbers, you know, and it's, it's not as bad as it, as it was, but it's still astronomically high. And the way I look at it very simply is that, you know, shelters, God bless them, are great, great resources, and we as Americans, very charitable, have opened up our hearts and wallets and provided pretty astounding resources for animals, whether it's ASPCA, HSUS, whatever, shelters, rescue organizations, you name it.

• 2:19:40Speaker 01

  But to me, it's no different than throwing money at the symptom. You know, it's not addressing the problem. You know, the problem is why are they getting there in the first place? I mean, because with 83 million dogs out there, you can't have enough resources to accommodate that. You know, and so it's like, it's like the pharmaceutical industry. You know, it's dealing with the symptoms and not trying to fix, fix the problem. You know, and of course, there is potentially some politics involved with that. In terms of maintaining funding and salaries and jobs, I get all that. But to me, a shelter's number one goal should be to have zero dogs in it. You know, if you're not, if that's not your goal, you're wrong. And I'll call any one of them out right now.

• 2:20:24Speaker 01

  You know, your goal should be to be out of a job, in my opinion. You know, and to me, that starts with, with teaching people how to communicate with their dogs. And it's everything that we've talked about, but it's really not that complicated. You know, and the gratification you get from doing it yourself and the understanding of your dog, it transcends just that, you know, just like, you know, with what you do. You know, you can take all of these same lessons and apply them to your kids, to your spouse, to your business partners, to your employees, whatever, and it all works the same way.

• 2:20:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're gonna close out the book here. I'm just gonna run through these fundamental principles you have. And as I'm saying them, think about not just dogs, but everyone that doesn't have a dog. Think about people. Anyone that's in a leadership position, think about leading those people as it applies to dogs.

• 2:21:19Jocko Willink?

  One, look at things from the dog's perspective. How often is it we get somebody that works for us and we don't think about what's going through their brain? And why what we're saying, how what we're saying to them, or how what we're making them do impacts them? Appreciate the differences in how dogs use their senses to perceive the world. Same thing. Think about the people that you've got working for you. Look at the intelligence behind the mistake. You already, you already talked about that. Reward good behavior. Uh, duh.

• 2:21:46Jocko Willink?

  But how often do we not do that as a leader? Punish or extinguish bad behavior. Duh, again. But how often do we let little things slide? We just, if you're letting things slide, if somebody wants to be late day after day, oh, that's okay. We're saying it's okay. Next, be consistent in the application of awards and punishment. Well, there you go. This is especially true with kids.

• 2:22:09Jocko Willink?

  If you're not consistent with the kids, like they don't learn. And, and I think opposite of dogs, actually. A kid, if they think they can get away with it once, like a variable reward, but a variable punishment, if they think they can get away with it, they're gonna gamble that they can get away with it again.

• 2:22:23Speaker 01

  I mean, dogs will, dogs will test the water on you pretty hard that way, too. A lot of them are more, more intuitive and sharp than you think, but.

• 2:22:31Jocko Willink?

  Uh, um, keep emotion out of the evaluation of good and bad and the application of punishments. This is super smart, especially with kids and with employees and with dogs. But if you're punishing the people or your workers or your employees or your dogs out of anger, you're, you're not doing a good job. You're not doing a good job.

• 2:22:52Jocko Willink?

  In fact, just FYI, when I have to do punishment with my kids, I do it in like the most cold blooded serial murder kind of way that I can.

• 2:23:01Speaker 01

  The Bud's instructor.

• 2:23:02Jocko Willink?

  As if it's completely emotionless. I was like, well, you know, unfortunately I have to do this because of your behavior. So go ahead and report to the garage.

• 2:23:13Jocko Willink?

  You know, so they're gonna get, they're gonna get hammered, but I think that's better.

• 2:23:16Speaker 01

  That's far more impactful, you know, I mean, think about a Bud's instructor, like none of them really scream at you.

• 2:23:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:21Speaker 01

  You know, it's the, it's the, the antithesis of the, of the Marine Corps DI. Like it's just white noise at that point, you're just standing there like, yeah, whatever. When that dude's like whispering like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna snatch the life out of your soul and crush it right in front of your face. And you know, a kid sitting there like 18 years old blowing his anal glands like, Jesus, what did I sign up for?

• 2:23:43Jocko Willink?

  Next, understand how dogs communicate overwhelmingly through bounty language and use that understanding and method of communication back to them to elicit the kinds of behaviors we want. And, and we, we, we talked about this before on the podcast, I don't know, you've probably heard this before, but they say humans. Humans communicate, even though we're all verbal and all that, it's an 80% is non-verbal. 80% is non-verbal. This is, I don't know, probably someone will say, no, it's not 80, it's 78. But it's a huge percentage is non-verbal.

• 2:24:12Speaker 01

  Well, to me, to me, where I think, you know, not to get too off track, but where the disparity is, is that in with technology, so much of our communication doesn't involve interaction.

• 2:24:22Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:24:23Speaker 01

  You know, it's emails, it's text messages, even it's phone calls, whatever, you know, so I think in person maybe, you know, but because there's such, that's so watered down by, by everything, you know?

• 2:24:35Jocko Willink?

  Well, people do this. I mean, again, working with businesses all the time, we, I uncover all kinds of people that are having all kinds of problems because they're only communicating through email or through text and therefore the people aren't picking up on all those other signals. And we have relationships that get destroyed because, you know, I made a joke to you about something and it was in a text message and, and I didn't put a LOL. Yeah, emoji after it. So you didn't think I was joking and all of a sudden we got an issue. Like, so, so this is definitely something that we have to remember. That's why I have like a rule in emails. I don't joke around in emails. Like I don't, I don't make jokes in emails. Unless I just completely, if we know each other and we, we can get, we get there, but I'm not joking around.

• 2:25:15Jocko Willink?

  You know, if I have a client, I'm not saying, uh, you know, I'll be there in a few weeks and hopefully I'll be able to sort your ass out. They're, they're like, wait, wait a second, even though I'd be kidding, but they don't know that through the email.

• 2:25:31Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, determine our needs and understand how a dog's prey drive, energy level, and other physical traits contribute to a matrix of behavior. What does that say? Know your people. Know your people. What's driving them? What are they motivated by? What's going to make them work harder?

• 2:25:50Jocko Willink?

  Next, provide a dog with ample amounts of exercise and interaction with other dogs and people in a multitude of different environments. What I liked about that is, yeah, the, the, obviously exercise, interaction, multiple of different environments. This is where I see people that are in a training capacity. They train people only in one environment. And so they get outside of that environment and they fall apart.

• 2:26:13Jocko Willink?

  Feed him a diet with maximum health benefits within our means. Hey, right, eat good food.

• 2:26:19Speaker 01

  Steak.

• 2:26:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, basically, we know, we all know what we're referring to. I brought home, some of my bros gave me a, a cow femur the other day. I brought it home for my dog, just a raw cow femur. You wanna talk about a pumped up dog?

• 2:26:34Speaker 01

  Rock and roll.

• 2:26:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he, he's still just getting after that thing.

• 2:26:37Speaker 01

  That's what nature intended.

• 2:26:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:40Jocko Willink?

  Before undergoing formal training, develop a bond of mutual trust and respect. So get that relationship going before you demand a bunch of stuff from people. Become the authority figure in a dog's life that he wants and needs. Take the time to be patient, do multiple repetitions, build in different levels of distraction, employ variable reward schedules, all to ensure that a concept is firmly embedded in a dog's mind. Now, we'll talk a little bit about jujitsu here. You gotta do the repetition, and then you've gotta do it in different, you know, you, you gotta, you gotta arm lock.

• 2:27:14Jocko Willink?

  You gotta try an arm lock, live rolling, a hundred times before you get one. At, at least a hundred, maybe more. And in order to shorten that time, you gotta do more drills. And then you can shorten that time from a hundred, maybe you only gotta do it forty-four times before it works. You think about when you learn a new move in jujitsu, it can take a long time. The better you understand it in the isolated training environment, the quicker you're gonna be able to do it live.

• 2:27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And from a behavioral standpoint, it's the same thing, like, teach it in a sterile classroom and then move it into the living environment, going out for walks, going past dog parks, you know, busy

• 2:27:48Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:27:48Speaker 01

  playgrounds, whatever, is that, you know, people are like, yeah, he's doing great in the classroom, and then I take him to the park and he just loses his mind. Like, where did you bridge that?

• 2:27:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:55Speaker 01

  Like, you can't go from third grade to, to, you know, a sophomore in college, and that's what you're doing. Like, you're not, you missed, you missed about fifteen steps in between there, you know, so.

• 2:28:06Jocko Willink?

  My dog was distracted in Walmart. No kidding, idiot.

• 2:28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:12Jocko Willink?

  Next, use good problem-solving skills to identify the root cause of a problem and work out the solution to resolve the issue and not just hide it.

• 2:28:24Jocko Willink?

  Another thing, you see this in relationships and companies where they just, everyone is hiding this problem. No one will address the problem. No one's going to address the problem. So if you've got problems, default aggressive, get aggressive, find the solution to the problem and implement it. That kind of wraps up this book. Like I said, Team Dog is the name of the book. How to Train Your Dog The Navy SEAL Way.

• 2:28:51Jocko Willink?

  And good stuff in there, not just for dogs, but for humans as well. And Mike, obviously, appreciate your service and not only what you did when you were in the teams, but everything you've done and did once you got out of the teams. And thanks for coming on the podcast. Now, I know you've got a bunch of things going on right now.

• 2:29:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, first off, I appreciate you having me on. It's an honor and I'm happy to do it. Yeah, in terms of everything I have going on, I mean, to me, the crux of what I would pass on to anybody listening is, again, is the, is really trying to get to the root core of communicating with your dog. And, you know, to me, if nothing else, let it be an experiment and practice for the rest of your relationships, you know, because it does transpire, or transcend, rather, you know, just training a dog. But the online training, just a month by month deal, they can go to teamdog.pet to check that out. It's, you know-

• 2:29:54Jocko Willink?

  Teamdog.pet. And that's where you have online training where people can learn to solve these problems that they have with their dog, build a good relationship with their dog and train their dog.

• 2:30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just, it's a monthly lesson. It's a cumulative process. It starts out, just like everything we talked about, building a relationship first, shaping and reinforcing behavior, and then working on extinguishing things, correcting problems, et cetera. We're in halfway through the second year of it. It's gone, gotten some really good feedback. There's forums that has, I get on there and I answer questions every Monday with, with all the, all the members and people interact with each other and give each other advice and post videos and a bunch of other stuff. We're going to launch some affiliate- Partnership programs here with people, getting other people to sign up soon. But that in conjunction with the book and then launching Tricost training franchises, which are going to augment all of the people out there that are subscribers.

• 2:30:49Speaker 01

  So basically, you know, it's working with certified Tricost and Team Dog trainers all over the country that have these franchises everywhere that help you go through this monthly training curriculum. And, you know, the crux of it, though, is, you know, just like with anything, you need help from some people, you need guidance with learning Olympic lifts or jiu-jitsu moves or whatever, but you may have to put the time in yourself. But this will allow people to, you know, to seek some guidance in person from people if they're having specific issues or whatever that they're not able to get from the online stuff. But we've had just overwhelming feed, positive feedback on success story after success story. You know, these 65-year-old grandmothers that have their labradoodle out there, you know, healing and walking around dog parks and stuff, and they're just loving it. It's pretty awesome.

• 2:31:33Speaker 01

  But so that's kind of the big thing.

• 2:31:36Jocko Willink?

  And you talked about Tricost. I don't even know if we talked about Tricost yet. Tricost is the company that you formed up while you were still in?

• 2:31:43Speaker 01

  No. So this is actually my second dog company, but I formed it a little over five years ago. And it's, the crux of it is personal protection dogs, police dogs, military dogs. We do sell up a fair number of dogs to private individuals for, you know, the personal protection aspect. And that's kind of what it was born and bred out of in conjunction with putting on a lot of police seminars and selling police dogs and teaching at conferences and stuff like that. But, yeah, so that's my for-profit company. If you, in terms of everything that I have going on, the best place to go is just Mike Rittlin.com. That is the resource that talks about the Team Dog online stuff, the Tricost stuff,

• 2:32:25Speaker 01

  the speaking engagements, the book for that, or, you know, the franchise stuff coming up, or even the Warrior Dog Foundation, the books that I've written. It's kind of a landing page of everything that I have going on.

• 2:32:35Jocko Willink?

  Mike Rittlin.com. And the Warrior Dog Foundation, again, you mentioned a couple of times, but... Just give a little bit of a, of a, of a plug for that so people know what it is.

• 2:32:45Speaker 01

  So Warrior Dog Foundation, uh, we started it back in August of 2010. Um, we've taken in a little over 80 dogs at this point. Um, started off with just doing special operations dogs, be it SEAL dogs, Rangers, whatever. Uh, and we've taken in a lot of police dogs, contract working dogs, military working dogs and, uh, uh, kind of our main, main goal and function with that is to act as a, as an indefinite sanctuary for those dogs first and foremost. When we get them in, we evaluate them. Some of them we've been able to repurpose, rehabilitate and, and get to police departments and, you know, some of them have come in, spent a few months and then we've gotten them back to, back to service with working with them and kind of unwinding their mind a little bit, using a lot of the same principles that we've been talking about today.

• 2:33:27Speaker 01

  Um, but more than anything is that, you know, these dogs are at that kind of, were their last resort, you know, they were going to get the blue juice here within days and, and we step in and take them and, and, uh, either just, you know, continually try to rehabilitate them to where we can either rehome them to a civilian application or another police department or whatever, uh, or we just let them live out their life, be a dog, have fun, chase balls and, and run around the woods and, and hang out and, and retire and out to pasture, so to speak. But WarriorDogFoundation.org, uh, is the website for that if you want to check it out. And, and of course we're, we're always, uh, gracious and appreciative of, of any support.

• 2:34:04Jocko Willink?

  If there's someone that listens to this podcast and gets all fired up to get a dog, um, obviously get the book. I'm going to tell you that right now, get the book so you can make a good assessment, make a good judgment and, um, think. It's a lot of work to have a dog. I have four kids. I've had dogs, multiple dogs. When I had a bunch of kids, we actually didn't have dogs for a while because kids and dogs are a lot of work. If you're not willing to put the, the work into the dog, then that's, you're not going to be a good. Parent, is that the right word? No, you're not gonna be the good dog owner. See, I almost, I almost went sideways there. So, yeah. You're gonna be a bad dog daddy.

• 2:34:44Speaker 01

  You're a fur daddy. Congratulations.

• 2:34:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're not gonna be a good dog owner. And believe me, I had to fight, I got three daughters and one son. And for the years of me beating them down, saying, no dog, no dog, no dog. Because I knew that I couldn't, uh, put enough time and effort into it to make it a dog. Have a good life and the dog be squared away and be disciplined and be able to, you know, protect my family. So. Took a while to get there, but then finally when my kids were old enough, you know, I got one out of the house and now we have a good environment for it. And so think about that before you run out and buy a dog.

• 2:35:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, it's, uh, it's like with anything, you know, um, don't, don't do impulse decisions, do your due diligence and research and. Uh, just like you wouldn't, uh, just, yeah, let's adopt a kid and see what happens, you know? Don't, uh, don't do the same thing with a dog.

• 2:35:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:34Speaker 01

  You know, I'm bored. It's Friday night. Let's go to the, let's go to the shelter and pick up a new dog.

• 2:35:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, not a good call. Not a good call. All right, Echo, um. We learned a lot about how to help dogs and train dogs. Maybe you could tell us how we could help ourselves a little bit.

• 2:35:49Speaker 02

  Is it true that?

• 2:35:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:35:51Speaker 02

  Dogs don't have a personality. They have a dog-ality. Get it?

• 2:35:58Speaker 02

  I just made that up.

• 2:36:02Speaker 02

  Hey, but that's okay.

• 2:36:03Speaker 01

  It took a minute.

• 2:36:04Jocko Willink?

  I need to work on the operating conditioning with Echo.

• 2:36:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still real flimsy.

• 2:36:08Speaker 01

  Grab that shot collar real quick.

• 2:36:12Speaker 02

  I know, man. Anyway, good news is Jocko has supplements, finally. When I say finally, not like.

• 2:36:19Jocko Willink?

  Yes, you should say finally, because the whole world is, was waiting.

• 2:36:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, like for decades, kind.

• 2:36:24Speaker 01

  Can I, can I jump in one quick second before that?

• 2:36:26Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:36:27Speaker 01

  We are launching a Tricost dog supplement line, uh, in the next couple of weeks.

• 2:36:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, speaking of supplements.

• 2:36:33Speaker 01

  Go on tricost.com. They're for dogs. I'm not stepping on your toes, but. Uh, so, you know, check, check, uh, check into that.

• 2:36:39Jocko Willink?

  You're not stepping on my toes at all. In fact, I expect a package in my house for my dog.

• 2:36:43Speaker 01

  Amen. Get you all hooked up.

• 2:36:45Jocko Willink?

  You just got a, but you just got your advertisement in there. Hey, you're gonna pay for that.

• 2:36:49Speaker 02

  What kind of supplements though? Like what is it supplement? Just cognitive?

• 2:36:53Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, starting out, it's gonna be, uh, different oils, um, and then we'll get into collagen, uh, later this year and stuff like that. It's all cognitive driven, you know, CBD and, and, uh. Different essential oil stuff and joint supplements and stuff like that. So it's a kind of a, kind of a mix of a few different things, but most of it is, is for joint pain, for overall health, cognitive function, things like that.

• 2:37:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:15Speaker 01

  And it all stems from the Warrior Dog research that we've done in terms of what works with them, in terms of raw foods and, and different joint supplements. And, and again, the collagen's a big thing and just kind of drawing off of all of our experience with that.

• 2:37:28Speaker 02

  Keep them physically maintained.

• 2:37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:31Speaker 02

  Kind of thing.

• 2:37:32Speaker 01

  It's, it's a big component, you know, it's like a bunch of broken warriors, you know, they take, take a lot of extra, a lot of extra care and, and, and animal husbandry to keep them, keep them sound.

• 2:37:41Jocko Willink?

  Echo was using that as a segue. I, I could feel it.

• 2:37:44Speaker 02

  Feel it. Well, same thing, right? Cause Jocko's supplements, Jocko's super krill oil for joints and joint warfare, obviously also for joints. Glucosamine, conjoint and curcumin.

• 2:37:56Jocko Willink?

  Somebody just asked me about, you know, with jiu-jitsu, don't your fingers hurt? Right? Cause you're with the gi, right?

• 2:38:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And it's, it's, the common answer is, yeah, of course they hurt. The joint warfare answer, the krill oil answer is, nah, it's not too bad.

• 2:38:11Speaker 02

  Really? Yeah. Your hands will get like sore, like muscle soreness. But my finger, and then again, it, it depends on how much of the gi and how much grabbing you do.

• 2:38:20Jocko Willink?

  I, I do have a low gi grabbing game.

• 2:38:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:25Jocko Willink?

  Which is an awkward thing. It's not that I don't grab the gi, cause I certainly do.

• 2:38:29Speaker 02

  You'll grab the gi.

• 2:38:29Jocko Willink?

  But if, oh, I grab that gi. But if you are determined, you get that look in your face like you want me to let go of your gi, guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna hold on it for the last millisecond and when you pull with all your might, I'm gonna let go of it. Cause I'm doing something else. But yeah, there's, you, you see the Meow Brothers?

• 2:38:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:47Jocko Willink?

  You seen their hands?

• 2:38:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:48Jocko Willink?

  They're all jacked up. And you watch their jiu-jitsu game? That's why. Cause they're, they're just, they will not let go of that gi. They'll get in weird positions and it's, it's gonna hurt. I don't even know if joint warfare would help him out. Help out the Meow Brothers.

• 2:39:00Speaker 02

  Probably at least a little bit, but you know, that's, that's your, you know, that's the life you chose kind of thing with grabbing the gi.

• 2:39:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:06Speaker 02

  And yeah, you have a real low grabbing.

• 2:39:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:09Speaker 02

  Compared, like I grab, I'm a medium, regular gi grabbing guy. Um, no joint pain, by the way. I'm on krill oil.

• 2:39:17Jocko Willink?

  Krill oil, joint warfare.

• 2:39:18Speaker 02

  I think it's gonna help regardless. I mean to cure it.

• 2:39:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, no. There are certain people. If you have like, like surgeons, we, we know people that are surgeons that train jiu jitsu. You cannot have a high gi commitment. Grabbing commitment, that's really what I'm talking about. I finally figured it out. That's what I'm talking about. I, I grab the gi a lot. But my commitment on the gi grabs is relatively low compared to somebody that's all about.

• 2:39:45Speaker 02

  All about that.

• 2:39:46Jocko Willink?

  That's a hundred percent committed to gi grabbing.

• 2:39:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 2:39:49Jocko Willink?

  To me, it's just a setup, though. Like, when you're, when you're decide you're gonna get that, you're gonna break my grip. I'm, there's, since that's my game, when you go to break my grip, I know that you're going to break my grip and I have the, the, the chain of events are about to unfold.

• 2:40:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's kinda like when you're a kid, when you, when you're playing with your friend or whatever. You're like pulling his arm, right? And he's like, oh, he's trying to pull it back, you're pulling it more and more and then you let go and you trip his leg and he falls back. Same thing with Jocko's gi grabbing.

• 2:40:18Jocko Willink?

  It's a setup.

• 2:40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's a setup. Nonetheless, if your fingers are sore from your gi grabbing commitment levels. Super krill, joint warfare. Mine was the elbows and my back. Good, good to go now. Also, the subscription is now available.

• 2:40:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:40:38Speaker 02

  From what I understand.

• 2:40:39Jocko Willink?

  Well, what's cool is because we have the data, right? Everyone talks about the data these days. So we, we have the big data on, on super krill, on joint warfare. And what's cool is when people buy it, they buy more. Which is the best indicator I can see because when you try it, you, you feel it and you want it. And so people had requested, we put subscription. So if you want to subscribe, just get the krill delivered to you.

• 2:41:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:07Jocko Willink?

  You can do that.

• 2:41:08Speaker 02

  Was that like a monthly?

• 2:41:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you can do monthly, you can do every two weeks. And you can do that, you can do it with joint warfare, you can do it with the discipline. In case you lacking discipline.

• 2:41:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:41:18Jocko Willink?

  You can get it now.

• 2:41:18Speaker 02

  Some people, that's all they need, just a little discipline and boom, they're good to go. Speaking of which, discipline. What is discipline? It's a cognitive, physical.

• 2:41:32Speaker 02

  Supplement.

• 2:41:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:33Speaker 02

  Pre- pre-workout for me, pre-mission.

• 2:41:36Jocko Willink?

  Pre-life.

• 2:41:36Speaker 02

  Overall, it's pre-mission. If you have a mission, you take the discipline. It'll help it. Um, there's some cognitive stuff in there, some little bit of caffeine, right?

• 2:41:46Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:41:47Speaker 02

  Gets you a little bit fired up.

• 2:41:48Jocko Willink?

  About fifteen milligrams.

• 2:41:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:50Jocko Willink?

  Cause you go beyond that and I start to feel like.

• 2:41:52Speaker 02

  How much is one cup of coffee?

• 2:41:53Jocko Willink?

  It's like forty-five or fifty, right? Uh, no. I wanna say a cup of coffee. Yes, you, I think you are right. I think it's like a standard day down. Forty-five or fifty.

• 2:42:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you figure fifteen, you know, a third.

• 2:42:06Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:42:07Speaker 02

  Something like that.

• 2:42:07Jocko Willink?

  That's what's in white tea, by the way. There's no coincidence there.

• 2:42:11Speaker 02

  That's a little bit more than I thought. Not that that's a lot. It's not a lot at all.

• 2:42:14Jocko Willink?

  Really? Fifteen?

• 2:42:15Speaker 02

  Fifteen or kinda when I do the conversion.

• 2:42:17Jocko Willink?

  Anybody that's a coffee drinker, they won't really feel it.

• 2:42:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're like drinking a third, a cup of coffee is not that much. They're gonna want more for sure. But it's not nothing.

• 2:42:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:26Speaker 02

  It's something.

• 2:42:27Jocko Willink?

  It's true.

• 2:42:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So that's good. To me, that's good. Um, nonetheless, uh, you know, you take it before you do some, something that requires physical and mental stuff. Just like how we're talking about. The jujitsu. You don't take it before jujitsu though, do you?

• 2:42:41Jocko Willink?

  No, I do take it. I don't take it before I lift.

• 2:42:43Speaker 02

  Right, right. Before you work out, yeah.

• 2:42:45Jocko Willink?

  Cause I don't. It's early in the morning. I just, not about that. Is that what you're drinking now? This is white tea. I had a drink of, I, the first drink I had was, was the discipline. Is it flavored? It is.

• 2:42:57Speaker 02

  And it actually tastes good, cause Jocko's like that. He needs it to taste really delicious.

• 2:43:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it does taste, it does taste good. Oh, he's, he's talking about my palate again.

• 2:43:05Speaker 02

  I know, bruh. It's, wait, who, I'm talking about your palate? Mike is.

• 2:43:09Jocko Willink?

  Mike is.

• 2:43:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:43:10Jocko Willink?

  Same thing that happened on Jordan Peterson, uh, podcast. Apparently I have a sensitive palate. What'd you say?

• 2:43:15Speaker 02

  I said refined, but it's not refined.

• 2:43:17Jocko Willink?

  So yes, discipline tastes good. It legitimately tastes good. You know what you can do, and I don't recommend this at night. Well, it's a little risky. It tastes good enough to have for dessert. Really? It's got a little sweetness to it, right? It's got, if you got a little sweetness, you can ta, you can take it for dessert. Cause you think, oh man, I just wanna like a little, oh boom, there you go. You have some discipline. You gotta watch out. Cause it's if, unless you have, I, I try not to take it if I don't have something to do, right? And if it's eight o'clock, sometimes I eat late at night, cause I eat when I get done training. If I'm, I don't wanna be taking it that late at night. But.

• 2:43:48Speaker 02

  Why? Cause the caffeine?

• 2:43:49Jocko Willink?

  Cause the ca- just the caffeine and just the whole, the whole thing.

• 2:43:51Speaker 02

  The microdose.

• 2:43:51Jocko Willink?

  The, the microdose of caffeine. So, but I have, last night I did, cause I'm prepping like 14 podcasts right now. So I had, I had some discipline late last night so I could get in the game.

• 2:44:02Speaker 02

  What, what do you mean dessert though? So what do you sprinkle it on a lemon meringue pie?

• 2:44:07Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, I just mix up, mix up a shake.

• 2:44:09Speaker 02

  Oh, and then so you just mentally assign dessert status to it?

• 2:44:13Jocko Willink?

  It's my dessert now.

• 2:44:14Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 2:44:14Jocko Willink?

  Although the other day I, I ate discipline. Straight up. You were with me.

• 2:44:19Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:44:20Jocko Willink?

  And I was saying, it's kinda like doing a shot of, of, of whiskey. Cause you know, kind of, you do a shot of whiskey, you go, oh!

• 2:44:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:29Speaker 01

  Did you make like a paste out or you just powder right down?

• 2:44:31Jocko Willink?

  I powdered it. I powdered it. I ate the powder.

• 2:44:34Speaker 01

  It's like the creatine days.

• 2:44:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was just like that. Exactly. It tasted better than the creatine. Yeah. So.

• 2:44:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's kinda like the Kool-Aid. Remember back in the day when you make the Kool-Aid and you go, let me just get a little?

• 2:44:45Speaker 01

  The liquor made.

• 2:44:47Jocko Willink?

  What's, what's the, oh man. I figured, I was about to ask you what that is and I figured it out mid-sentence. Alright.

• 2:44:53Speaker 02

  Nonetheless, if or when you do go to buy these things, you go to originmaine.com. That's where they are. Super Krill, Joint Warfare, Warfare, Discipline. Get the subscription one. I'm saying straight up, do that.

• 2:45:07Jocko Willink?

  Sounds like a good call.

• 2:45:08Speaker 02

  Now that I know that the subscription is available, that's like, it's obvious that that's the way to go. Cause running out isn't good.

• 2:45:15Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:45:16Speaker 02

  By the way.

• 2:45:16Jocko Willink?

  Like when you ran out of Krill Oil.

• 2:45:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. That's what I'm kinda mentally drawing upon to kinda tell you guys is, um, very important. Also, at originmaine.com, ghee's and rash guards. If you are about that ghee grabbing commitment and you're gonna put on a ghee, in the event of you wanting to put on a ghee or needing to put on a ghee, you get an origin ghee. All made in America. Also compression gear, which is rash guards spats.

• 2:45:44Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm. Approved terminology.

• 2:45:46Speaker 02

  Approved.

• 2:45:48Speaker 02

  Which are what? What's another word for spats? Let's say I'm just tuning in.

• 2:45:52Jocko Willink?

  Compression pants.

• 2:45:53Speaker 02

  Compression pants, yeah.

• 2:45:54Jocko Willink?

  Again, this is, Spats got approved because we found out the root meaning.

• 2:45:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. Nonetheless, you get them from originmean.com, all made in America. Really cool stuff. Other stuff on their hoodies and whatnot. Anyway, just go there. If you like something, get something. Good way to support. Also, if you are into, and I always say mainly the kettlebells. On it, you know, they have kettlebell, you know, on it, right? You have the cool kettlebells, the Pramo bells. I have the whole set, by the way. I got the, I got the, they're pretty dope, that's why. I got the big Bigfoot one, then Jocko thinks he's all, actually Jocko was salty. That had a bigger kettlebell than him. So of course he had to go buy more, but nonetheless, I got the whole set.

• 2:46:39Jocko Willink?

  My kettlebell's bigger than your kettlebell.

• 2:46:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I got the, I got the whole set.

• 2:46:43Speaker 01

  I figured he'd carabiner two of them together and start slinging them.

• 2:46:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm sure that's what he was doing for a while. And he was like, there's gotta be a better way to compete with Echo. Anyway, there's other stuff on there as well. Actually, I do mention this as well. Maces and there's like these little like, they're called something bells. They're like these little flat kind of leather weights.

• 2:47:03Jocko Willink?

  Steel bells is what they're called.

• 2:47:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, something. Anyway, you want to vary up your workout? You know, deviate from the mundane, boring workout that you might be doing right now? Go there, get some cool stuff. Good way to support. Also, when you buy the books that Jocko reviews and also Mike's book.

• 2:47:24Jocko Willink?

  Mike's got three books.

• 2:47:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, books, should I say. Team Dog, right?

• 2:47:30Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:47:30Speaker 02

  How to Train Your Dog the Navy SEAL Way. Also, the, and then you said there was two others that were essentially the same book.

• 2:47:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, one other is the same book. SEAL Team Dog, same book.

• 2:47:40Speaker 02

  SEAL Team Dog is the same as this one.

• 2:47:42Jocko Willink?

  Young adult.

• 2:47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, so there's Trident Canine Warriors and there's Navy SEAL Dogs. Navy SEAL Dogs is Trident Canine Warriors, but it's the young adult, young adult version, so.

• 2:47:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. So when you're gonna get that book, don't worry, I got you. Go to jacopodcast.com. In the books section, it'll be by episode, it'll be all these books and all the other books from other episodes. All organized. Take you to Amazon. Boom, you click, buy them. Amazon Prime, you get the book that same day sometimes, sometimes. Good way to support. If you're gonna continue to do your other shopping, you know, that lawnmower that you're, you know, on the fence about to buy, get that too. Also, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. iTunes, Google, Play, Stitcher,

• 2:48:30Speaker 02

  anywhere else you listen to podcasts, just subscribe. That's a good way to support. Leave a review if you're in the mood. I wouldn't say leave a review if you're not in the mood.

• 2:48:40Jocko Willink?

  No, don't.

• 2:48:42Speaker 02

  I've heard people say that, like, leave a review.

• 2:48:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no matter what? No.

• 2:48:46Speaker 02

  Well, actually, you know what? That's not true.

• 2:48:48Jocko Willink?

  If you have the capacity in your life and a good sense of humor to leave a funny review, that's cool. Do it.

• 2:48:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's strong encouragement.

• 2:48:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, don't. If you don't have the capacity in your life, because some people don't, you know, it's gonna take seven minutes, right?

• 2:49:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49:03Jocko Willink?

  There's gonna be misspellings in there, right? You really wanna post that? No, just walk away.

• 2:49:09Speaker 02

  Agree. Leave a review. Also, subscribe to YouTube, because we have a YouTube channel, by the way. Do you have a YouTube channel?

• 2:49:15Speaker 01

  I do, actually, yep. It's, uh, yeah, you can get there off of MikeRittlin.com also, but...

• 2:49:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so subscribe to Mike's as well.

• 2:49:25Jocko Willink?

  You think you don't remember right now?

• 2:49:26Speaker 01

  I can tell you about 90% on the Mike Rittlin website I didn't put on there, so I couldn't even tell you what it is.

• 2:49:32Jocko Willink?

  I've watched a bunch of your videos on that.

• 2:49:34Speaker 02

  I'm sure if you just put Mike Rittlin in, yeah, yeah, in YouTube.

• 2:49:38Speaker 01

  Not to be confused with the other one.

• 2:49:40Speaker 02

  What other one?

• 2:49:41Speaker 01

  There's not another one.

• 2:49:42Speaker 02

  There you go, so it won't be confusing. I got you, I got you. Nonetheless, subscribe. Uh, what do we got? The vision, video version of this podcast and excerpts and deluxe excerpts. So we're calling them right now.

• 2:49:55Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:49:56Speaker 02

  And we're gonna work on some other. Jock, you gave me good pep talk the other day. Inadvertent, by the way, because you weren't, unless it was, it seemed inadvertent, you know? Bro, that's the thing with this guy, subtle, like where he'll give you a pep talk and you don't know that it's a pep talk at the time.

• 2:50:12Speaker 01

  That sounds more calculated than inadvertent.

• 2:50:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, now that I realize that was calculated.

• 2:50:18Jocko Willink?

  I see the smile on my face.

• 2:50:19Speaker 02

  So, yeah, at the end, I'm like leaving the whole, we drove back from LA, whatever, and I'm leaving it, and I'm like... You have no idea what I'm about to do right now. I'm about to do all this stuff. I got it all planned out or whatever. And I was like, yeah, I don't think Jocko realized like that that really helped, you know, what we talked about.

• 2:50:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:37Speaker 02

  He does know.

• 2:50:39Speaker 01

  You're gonna share what you talked about?

• 2:50:40Speaker 02

  Nah, just, you know, nah, it doesn't matter. Just stuff.

• 2:50:43Speaker 01

  I would say this. Wait and see.

• 2:50:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:47Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 2:50:47Speaker 02

  It has something to do with me being reluctant to post certain videos sometimes.

• 2:50:53Speaker 01

  Like Gunshy?

• 2:50:55Speaker 02

  Kinda. Yeah, in a way. Let, let the hands go kinda.

• 2:50:57Speaker 01

  Let the hands go a little bit.

• 2:50:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:59Speaker 01

  Well, the Wayne, Wayne Gretzky quote of you miss a hundred percent of shots you don't take. There you go.

• 2:51:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was part of the conversation, actually. Yeah. Nonetheless, what that has to do is with is videos. So we're gonna, we're gonna release a little bit more videos, different types of videos. But if you like videos in relationship to this podcast in any capacity, just subscribe to the YouTube channel. Also, Jocko has a store, if you don't know already. It's called Jocko Store. jockostore.com. This is where you can get Jocko Podcast shirts, Discipline Equals Freedom shirts, Victory MMA shirts, the one that Jocko wears every single day.

• 2:51:37Speaker 02

  And, uh, you know, some rash guards on there, some hoodies on there. Um, you know, any kind of gear. Jocko, Jocko gear, really, is what it is. A very good way to support also psychological warfare, if you don't know what that is. If you're on the path, we call it the path. Campaign against weakness is what we've always, also called it, you know? And you hit those moments of weakness, like, you know, you, you wanna hit the snooze, so to speak. Literally and figuratively, you wanna hit the snooze, right? What is hitting the snooze in life? Just like, I can't do it right now, I'll do it later.

• 2:52:14Speaker 01

  Hitting the snooze in life?

• 2:52:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, let me.

• 2:52:17Speaker 01

  The snooze button should say, hit this button and destroy all of your hopes and dreams.

• 2:52:22Speaker 02

  It should say that, yeah. As far as the, I dig it, it should say that, but the hitting the, what is, that's like, what? Like, I, I, I don't feel like doing it right now, I'll do it in 10 minutes, right?

• 2:52:33Speaker 01

  Can I give you a, a product recommendation, a new Jocko product? Yeah, what do you got? Developed on this. It's a... It's a snooze button shock collar. You get the piss shocked out of you.

• 2:52:45Jocko Willink?

  I like it. I like it.

• 2:52:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:47Jocko Willink?

  Or you can just, you know what else you can do is you can hit the snooze button. You can sleep in and then you can wake up 20 minutes, half an hour later with that part of your life gone forever. With your, with your schedule now being off, with the opportunity to improve yourself physically and mentally, gone, gone. Can never get it back. You can take that feeling, you can embrace it and then you can just go ahead and next time you see that snooze button, you can get pissed off and get up and get out of bed and get after it.

• 2:53:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:13Jocko Willink?

  Good deal.

• 2:53:14Speaker 02

  And you know what? In a more maybe echo way of thinking about it too, the, you don't even benefit from the five minutes, by the way.

• 2:53:22Jocko Willink?

  It's zero benefit.

• 2:53:23Speaker 02

  Or 10 or however many.

• 2:53:24Jocko Willink?

  I think it's worse.

• 2:53:24Speaker 02

  You don't even benefit.

• 2:53:25Jocko Willink?

  It's worse. Yeah, it's worse.

• 2:53:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:27Speaker 01

  I think it makes you more tired.

• 2:53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause it's not like you're like, dang, I need the nine minutes of sleep or whatever, you know? And then you're like, you get up, you're like, dang, that nine minutes really helped me. It's not like that. It doesn't work like that.

• 2:53:38Jocko Willink?

  Like you said, you're worse.

• 2:53:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:53:39Jocko Willink?

  Factually.

• 2:53:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. So don't hit the snooze. But in the event of you needing help not hitting the snooze, you listen to Psychological Warfare. And this goes for any other little moment of weakness, like if you're gonna skip the workout for the day.

• 2:53:51Jocko Willink?

  We know those.

• 2:53:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, hey, we do. It's part of life, I think. Nonetheless.

• 2:53:59Jocko Willink?

  I just got, I just got my first like mad look from Echo, I think, ever.

• 2:54:02Speaker 02

  No, no, you got some before.

• 2:54:03Jocko Willink?

  Really? Well, not, not on the Jiu Jitsu mats.

• 2:54:05Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 2:54:06Jocko Willink?

  Cause you've looked at me real mad on the Jiu Jitsu mats before.

• 2:54:09Speaker 02

  It was genuine anger, by the way. Nonetheless, you listen to Psychological Warfare. It's an album with tracks, Jocko tracks. Jocko telling you why you shouldn't hit the snooze, skip the workout, eat donuts.

• 2:54:22Jocko Willink?

  Mmm, donuts.

• 2:54:23Speaker 02

  Sugar coated lies.

• 2:54:24Jocko Willink?

  Sugar coated lies.

• 2:54:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Why you shouldn't procrastinate, which is a big deal. Huge deal, actually. Procrastination, I think, is worse than hitting the snooze.

• 2:54:32Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's the same thing.

• 2:54:33Speaker 02

  It is the same thing.

• 2:54:34Jocko Willink?

  It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a physical and psychological manifestation of procrastination, without question. Your snooze button could also say procrastinate now, go, touch this button.

• 2:54:47Speaker 02

  And actually, in a way, it's even worse. Actually, straight up, it's even worse because snooze button at least has like 10 minutes later, the alarm's coming back on. See what I'm saying? Procrastination is an indefinite snooze button.

• 2:54:57Speaker 01

  Maybe you should call it the procrastination button.

• 2:55:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what it's called.

• 2:55:02Speaker 01

  That's what it would be called on the Jocko alarm clock.

• 2:55:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, boom, there it is. But that's what it is. Psychological War for a Day. Hey, look. When Jocko tells you in, in his terms, why you should or shouldn't do things, it makes sense.

• 2:55:14Jocko Willink?

  When you just said the Jocko alarm clock, the re, one of the reasons why we actually made this was because people kept saying, oh, you should make an alarm clock, you should make an alarm clock. Well, with this, with the, with the Psychological Warfare album, you can take those tracks from the album and you can put them as your alarm clock. If you choose to do that. The big warning is, if you're married, you don't really want to do this too loudly because your wife will freak out. A couple other things. You can get Jocko White Tea, you can get it on Amazon. And if you, if you're looking to be able to deadlift 8,000 pounds as a minimum, we have people going above that now. If you get Jocko White Tea, it's a guarantee that you'll be able to deadlift 8,000 pounds.

• 2:55:55Speaker 01

  That's in there, right? That's on the package.

• 2:55:57Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes. I mean, it's already been approved by the FDA and the CIA and the FBI.

• 2:56:01Speaker 02

  Double, triple, blind. Placebo.

• 2:56:04Jocko Willink?

  Uh, yeah, that's Jocko White Tea. You know what? Straight up. Tastes awesome, makes you feel good. Books, again, Mike's book, Trident K9 Warriors, Navy SEAL Dogs, Team Dog.

• 2:56:16Jocko Willink?

  Those are all available. Uh, and also some books. I got some books. For instance, what if you wanted your kid to work out? Study, eat good food, train jiu-jitsu, and be highly disciplined. What would you, would you want that for your kid? The answer is invariably, yes, you would. So I wrote a book called Way of the Warrior Kid. So your kid will start getting in the game.

• 2:56:39Speaker 02

  Overcoming fears too.

• 2:56:40Jocko Willink?

  Overcoming fears. Forgot about that one. Overcoming fears. Not being picked on. Making a plan, following through. Also, I just had, well, soon to come out, another book. It's called Way of the Warrior Kid 2. It's called Mark's Mission. Now we go a little bit further. What if you wanted your kid to take control of their emotions? Wanted them to learn and understand the value of money and how to earn money and how to save money. Wanted your kid to learn about helping other people. Wanted your kid to become a leader. What if you wanted those things for your kids? Well, guess what? Way of the Warrior Kid 2, Mark's Mission. It's available right now for preorder on Amazon. So check that out.

• 2:57:25Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of Warrior Kids, also, there's a 12-year-old Warrior Kid named Aiden. And he has a business. He's a businessman at age 12. He's making soap from goat milk on his farm. He wanted to make good soap. He said, can I make Jocko soap? And I said, do it.

• 2:57:42Jocko Willink?

  Irishoaksranch.com. Get some soap from Aiden, the Warrior Kid. And I think I inadvertently made up the slogan for his soap. It's a simple, it's a simple.

• 2:58:00Speaker 02

  It's here.

• 2:58:00Jocko Willink?

  But there's layers. It's real easy. Stay clean.

• 2:58:07Jocko Willink?

  I've said that to, you know, I always said that. That's an old Motorhead song.

• 2:58:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:58:11Jocko Willink?

  Or it's part of it. It's the lyrics of a Motorhead song. And, and I used to tell, whenever somebody tells me, oh, you know, I've been drinking, I was drinking and I haven't drank for six months. Or I haven't, you know, I was doing coke and I haven't been doing coke for eight, for eight months. I appreciate it. Or I was a drug addict or whatever. And this is all like online. These people saying this stuff online. And, and I always say, hey, man, keep it up. Stay clean. Now, I wasn't thinking about the literally staying clean. But now we have a proper soap that will help you stay clean. Imagine being a 12-year-old kid with a business.

• 2:58:44Jocko Willink?

  That's pretty impressive, right?

• 2:58:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's pretty, that's legit.

• 2:58:46Speaker 01

  It was like the furthest thing from my mind at twelve.

• 2:58:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you think about what you were doing when you were twelve. I would, I would, with my friend Jeff, I would, when people were going to throw, put their trays away in lunch, we would collect their leftover potato chips.

• 2:59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59:02Jocko Willink?

  And then eat them all.

• 2:59:05Speaker 01

  I thought you were gonna say just like put them back in bags.

• 2:59:07Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, no, no. So we have a pile of potato chips on our tray.

• 2:59:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59:13Jocko Willink?

  And we'd just eat them. Yeah, exactly. Was I thinking about running a business? Was I thinking about trying to build a business? No, I was eating massive amounts of potato chips, which is just, shows you where I was at. Yeah, other people, that I didn't even pay for. I thought it was so awesome, free potato chips.

• 2:59:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59:31Jocko Willink?

  Cause remember when you were a kid, like your, your parents weren't getting you potato chips all the time. But to have a, to have a mound of potatoes, more, almost more than you could eat, but we did our best to eat them all.

• 2:59:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so that's it. That's a Warrior Kid Books. Also Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. Get it for people that you actually care about and wanna have better lives. That's people that you want to win in their lives. The Discipline Equals Freedom Manual will give them a very good indication. And the reason I know that is, well, let's not even take my experiences from my life, but the feedback I'm getting right now, people are getting after it. They're losing weight or gaining weight, or, or getting more disciplined in their school, in their life, in their business. They're getting better. So you can get that, and, and it will show you how, why, cause it's a field manual. You don't know what that is, Echo?

• 3:00:25Speaker 02

  I do, my favorite kind of manual.

• 3:00:27Jocko Willink?

  Okay. A field manual actually gives you instructions in the military, you weren't in the military. You don't know nothing about a field manual. Hey, if you want the audio version of that, it is not on Audible. It's not on Audible, you can't get it there. It's on iTunes, it's on Amazon Music, it's on Google Play, other MP3 platforms, it's an album with tracks, so that you can use that thing for your alarm clock too. You can put it in your mixtape. What? In your, what's it, what's it called?

• 3:00:55Speaker 02

  It was.

• 3:00:55Jocko Willink?

  Playlist, you can put it in your playlist. Yeah, you can put it in your playlist now. You can just have it in there.

• 3:01:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:01:01Jocko Willink?

  So if you, boom, pick the ones that you like, that hit you the right way. Also, Extreme Ownership Combat Leadership Principles that you can apply to your business and your life. Other people are doing it.

• 3:01:13Jocko Willink?

  That's why that book is still on the Wall Street Journal bestsellers list. It's over two years old. It's still there, rocking.

• 3:01:22Jocko Willink?

  And also with that book, if you, don't just get it to yourself, for yourself. Get it for your team. Up and down the chain of command. It's gonna make your life easier. If you put it up and down the chain of command. If everyone in your team is taking ownership, we have a good team. If you need some help with leadership at your company, I have a leadership and management consulting company. It's called Echelon Front. We solve problems through leadership and we do it all the time and we do it all over the world. Me, Leif Babin, JP Danelle, Dave Burke. Email [email protected]. Or you can go to our website, echelonfront.com. Of course, we have the muster. I threw, I'm gonna throw this out there. The ultimate leadership conference.

• 3:02:05Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm calling it. The ultimate leadership conference. And really, conference might not even be the right word. It's just, it's embedded knowledge that's gonna come at you. It's an experience.

• 3:02:17Speaker 02

  Gathering.

• 3:02:18Jocko Willink?

  It's a gathering. There's no green room. I haven't said that lately. There's no green room at the muster.

• 3:02:25Speaker 02

  That is a good point.

• 3:02:26Jocko Willink?

  There's no, I know, that's why I've reminded myself. What, cuz I was thinking about, okay, well, why would people wanna come to this? Well, one reason is there's no green room. There's no backstage. We're out there. We're with you. You come to the muster, we're hanging out. We're having lunch. We're having dinner. We're asking, answering questions. We're with you there the whole time. We've done four so far. They've all sold out. We're only doing two this year. A lot of people are objecting to this. We don't have time to do more. We're only doing two. Washington DC, May 17th and 18th, and San Francisco, October 17th and 18th. That's it. We are not a rock and roll band on tour. As much as I wanna be. Cuz people are saying, well, why don't you come to Seattle? And why don't you come to Milwaukee? And why don't you come to Norfolk?

• 3:03:12Jocko Willink?

  And why don't you come to Memphis? Like we're on a rock tour.

• 3:03:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:03:15Jocko Willink?

  Like we're just making dates. No. This is the the only two we are doing. Washington DC, May 17th and 18th. And October 17th and 18th in San Francisco. Those are the dates we can fit the muster in to our schedule. And like I said, they're going to sell out. So if you want to come, register to extremeownership.com. We'll see you there. And until the muster. If you want to continue this conversation with any of us, you can find us conversing on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram. And on Dach Facey Boha. Mike Ritland is at M Ritland.

• 3:03:58Jocko Willink?

  And also, as he said, Mike Ritland.com. Of course, Echo is at Echo Charles. And I am at Jocko Willink Echo. Anything else?

• 3:04:07Speaker 02

  No, thank you. Actually, the, I'm where you were at with the dog thing where it's like, hey, we can't get a dog. We gotta be ready to get a dog. You know, my daughter's like, to get a dog? She doesn't know. She's five.

• 3:04:19Jocko Willink?

  It's a big deal.

• 3:04:20Speaker 02

  But I don't know, man. You know, talking to you is kind of like, yeah, really? I think I could do. I don't know. He's kind of very influential.

• 3:04:27Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I can tell you, you can. I mean, it's like with anything in your life, like if you want to do it, you'll do it.

• 3:04:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:33Speaker 01

  You gotta decide, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it right. And, and you'll do it.

• 3:04:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:37Speaker 01

  You know, but the only thing I would caution against is that realize that that's carving out a portion of your day, a portion of your life, that something else isn't going to be able to fill that.

• 3:04:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes.

• 3:04:47Speaker 01

  It's a, you know, prioritization component, but.

• 3:04:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. But yeah, man, so cool to meet you. And thank you.

• 3:04:54Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

• 3:04:55Speaker 02

  You're welcome.

• 3:04:56Jocko Willink?

  Mike, you got anything else?

• 3:04:58Speaker 01

  That's it. Just, uh, guys, keep, keep up the good fight. I, uh, I am honored to be on here and appreciative of, uh, of your guys' time. It's been, been great.

• 3:05:07Jocko Willink?

  Well, Mike, again.

• 3:05:10Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for coming on. Thanks for everything you've done while you were in, since you've been out, and everything that you're continuing to do today. I know the dogs have saved a lot of lives. Yeah. And appreciate that. Of course, thanks to all the servicemen and women out there, and I'll go ahead and yes, throw out a special thanks to all the dogs out there and their handlers. Everyone in the military, standing face to face with evil, thank you for standing the watch for police, law enforcement, again, and their dogs. Firefighters, paramedics, all the other first responders, thanks for protecting us while we sleep at night.

• 3:05:54Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone, thank you for listening, and sharing, and supporting this podcast, but most of all, thanks for getting up early every day. By seven. Negative. And attacking the world with the ferocity of an angry, working dog that is out for blood and vengeance. Go and get after it. And until next time, this is Mike Ritland, and Echo, and Jocko, out.