Heal Your Trauma, Anxiety, and Stress Through Your Body with Somatic Practitioner Brittany Piper

We are so glad to welcome back Brittany Piper – speaker, author, Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, and educator in sexual violence prevention and trauma recovery. In this episode, she is sharing her expertise of somatic healing, which starts with the body and can be life-changing for anyone with trauma, anxiety, and/or chronic stress, especially if traditional talk therapy isn't working. We discuss the science of the nervous system, learning the language of your body and how to regulate your stress responses, how to de-escalate your anxiety, and what a "trigger" actually is. We also discuss trauma and anxiety in relationships – talking to your partner about your needs, how you can be a helpful partner to someone who is struggling, co-regulating, and using a tool called "parts work" in a conflict. Before Brittany joins us, we're discussing wild AI text summaries, and unpacking a listener dilemma about a situationship with a colleague. Hope you enjoy! Follow Brittany on Instagram @healwithbritt and get her book Body First Healing. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Simply Pop: Go to https://cokeurl.com/simplyPOP to find out where you can try Simply Pop. Bilt: Get points by paying rent at https://joinbilt.com/GGE. Hungryroot: Get 40% off your first box and free item in every box for life at https://hungryroot.com/GGE with code GGE. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  How does your body tell you a yes? How does your body tell you a no? And for a lot of us after trauma, that's kind of the first step is regaining that agency.

• 0:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back. I just feel like I had a real like parenting moment.

• 0:33Rayna Greenberg?

  With me?

• 0:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  With my fiance, with you, Tess is our daughter, where he had to like go pick up Azul at the groomer today. Like, we had to organize like a pickup today. This is what parents have to do all the time with their kids.

• 0:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, yeah. Dog moms, just like parents.

• 0:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. And don't put words in my mouth. People get so triggered about that stuff. No, but like, I was like, I'm gonna be recording when Azul's ready for a pickup at the groomer. So he had to like leave work and go get Azul. And then I had to be like, did you get the shampoo? They always forget to give you back. I bring special shampoo.

• 1:02Rayna Greenberg?

  You gotta tell men how to handle your children.

• 1:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  But he didn't get the shampoo, but I didn't remind him. And they forget the groomer to always give me back my shampoo. I give them special shampoo for Azul's sensitive skin. So it's just such a thing that parents have to deal with every day that, you know? It's like, babe, can you go pick up the, go pick up the kid? And then don't forget the thing. Like, don't forget the stuff.

• 1:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. So you know what it's like. A parent. I am inching closer to getting a dog every single day. I can't stop thinking about it. Like, I want this. Every day I think about it and I just, really, I'm edging towards it so much. I know I've threatened this for a lot of years, but I think I am finally ready.

• 1:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do you guys remember Bagel the Yorkie?

• 1:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I am gonna name it Bagel.

• 1:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, there is a very specific, like, look of dog I want you to get. And I like, almost crashed my car the other day trying to get a picture of one for you, like crossing a crosswalk.

• 1:49Rayna Greenberg?

  I've been like Googling them every day, just looking at photos of them. I feel like I'm really, I'm edging towards dog life.

• 1:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Really?

• 1:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, it's a really long commitment. I can't just be like, this sounds fun. Like, I'm committing to something for 15 years.

• 2:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it's, the stakes are lower.

• 2:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Cause it's a small dog.

• 2:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, like, it's, you know, in terms of a kid.

• 2:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Different.

• 2:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Different. Can't stress it enough. So we had a friend just really go through a really tough breakup. One of the harder ones I've heard of.

• 2:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 2:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I just really feel for her and I've been checking in on her. You texted with her as well. And I was talking to her last night over text and she was saying she's gonna head up to stay with her family for a little bit. And she just has like great support system and you really need those people in those times and friends, of course, too. If you don't have the family, you have the friends, but she just said her dog too. And I'm like, how do people get through breakups without dogs? You have done it.

• 2:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, three, a lot of times.

• 2:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know, but they're like, I can't imagine it. And breakups and just the hardest moments of my life to have Dewey there, honestly, the harder moments of my life were with him. Just, I remember thinking in those moments, like, how do you, how can you do this? How can you be brokenhearted and like not have this animal to like be with you and cuddle with and be in the bed with you? Like, it's just, it makes everything better.

• 3:08Rayna Greenberg?

  I've just, I've done it somehow.

• 3:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know, and people do it all the time.

• 3:11Rayna Greenberg?

  But I will say a nice thing about it is that like when you are depressed for whatever reason, like the hardest thing to do is like leave the house, even though you know it's gonna make you happy. You know that like outside, like I always tell people, surround yourself with people you love, go outside, take a walk, like breathe air. And an animal obviously will give you a reason to do that.

• 3:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, in my lowest moments, Azul still makes me laugh and smile and I still can talk to him in the dog voice. You know, like sometimes I can't believe the way I'm able to talk to him and smile in like the lowest of times. Like they make your life so much better. I know. This is gonna be like a deep conversation about dogs, but I think about it a lot, like how much they improve our lives and we need them in tough times.

• 3:54Rayna Greenberg?

  I know, and I think I'm just like ready.

• 3:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think you're ready.

• 3:56Rayna Greenberg?

  To like care about something besides myself.

• 3:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just, I mean, you're gonna get a smaller dog, you're gonna bring it with you everywhere.

• 4:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 4:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Look at Alyssa.

• 4:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, that thing is.

• 4:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's never not with her.

• 4:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I'll have it with me all the time.

• 4:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and it'll be small enough to travel with easily, stick it under the seat, drug it up and put it under the seat.

• 4:14Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel like I'm ready for it.

• 4:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 4:16Rayna Greenberg?

  All right. Well, stay tuned, you guys. I've threatened this many times over the years.

• 4:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 4:19Rayna Greenberg?

  So we'll see. But let's thank our partners. Thanks to Bilt. Get points by paying rent at joinbilt.com/gge.

• 4:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to Simply Pop. Go to cokeurl.com/simplypop to find out where you can try Simply Pop. And also that URL will be in our episode description. And Hungry Root, get 40% off your first box and a free item in every box for life at hungryroot.com/gge with code GGE.

• 4:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 4:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I'm gonna be in Florida this weekend. Just want to make a quick mention. Going to Miami and Tampa. I have shows this Friday, May 2, Miami, Saturday in Tampa. I can't believe I'm gonna be there without you. You know what? Maybe you'll come down.

• 5:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe. Listen, I love Miami so much.

• 5:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  No guarantees.

• 5:04Rayna Greenberg?

  It's our special place in Tampa.

• 5:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just love.

• 5:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Dave Bautista has a tattoo shop there. I love Tampa.

• 5:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  So really fun shows. I have Miami comedian, iconic Brittany Brave is gonna be with me at both of these shows. She's so funny. She did my shows in Newark. She like brought the house down. But I can't wait to see you guys. I have so many friends and family coming to Miami and like some friends coming to Tampa. And I just love performing in Florida. So you guys can come see me this weekend on the Sex Before Marriage Tour. Grab tickets at ashhes.com. And I'll see you there.

• 5:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, I want to talk to you about this because I feel that no one is speaking on this.

• 5:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  No one's talking about this.

• 5:41Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't understand it. I, this has been this thing that is just like everyone's experiencing it. No one's speaking of this.

• 5:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I feel like I brought it up to you because here we are teasing. I feel like I brought it up to you and you, because yours are so funny. And then I was like, no one is talking about this. This is, this is all I'm thinking about.

• 5:58Rayna Greenberg?

  I just didn't even think about thinking about it. I was just like, this is our life now.

• 6:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Which is the AI previews on text, which I guess if you're crazy behind on your update, you're not getting these. But it's been happening for what, a month or so?

• 6:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 6:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Month or two now?

• 6:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Emails also.

• 6:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  So emails too.

• 6:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Scott, I think you could turn it off. I'm assuming you could turn it off.

• 6:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. But so people don't know what they're talking. I mean, Tess, you have these, right? You just never got it?

• 6:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Are you updated?

• 6:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  So Tesla doesn't have it. But so basically, when a text pops up and it's at the top of your text log, there's an AI preview of what the text says. And once you open it, it disappears. Same with email. Actually, the emails stay.

• 6:37Rayna Greenberg?

  The emails stay. The emails I find bother some and annoying because if it's a chain of emails, like 10, it will summarize just something in there. It drives me crazy.

• 6:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  It also is not accurate.

• 6:47Rayna Greenberg?

  But for text messages, it's very funny. And you've like read me some of the previews that are coming because I send you very long voice notes and text messages.

• 6:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 6:54Rayna Greenberg?

  And some of them have been very crazy. So I asked you to screenshot them.

• 6:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's tough because you open it and then they disappear.

• 6:59Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 6:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  So some are in my memory. But my favorite one, I'm just going to start strong, was I got an AI preview from a text Raina sent me and it said, "Almost defecated, had to run to car." Defecated.

• 7:13Rayna Greenberg?

  So what had happened?

• 7:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  And for me to see that, "Almost defecated, had to run to car."

• 7:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I went to a restaurant that I go to a lot. They sabotaged me. I went to the beach and I realized that like something was wrong in my stomach and I'm like sweating and shaking. I'm like, I'm going to shit on this beach. And so I ran to the car and I like white knuckled it all the way home. I literally was like negotiating with myself, like how bad would it be if I just let myself shit in this car?

• 7:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Shit in your car.

• 7:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Like it was, it's the hardest I've ever had to like clench my butthole. I thought I was going to be sick. I was talking to myself in the car being like, you can do this.

• 7:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Don't shit in your car.

• 7:50Rayna Greenberg?

  You're going to make it home. Like I was really like bargaining, negotiating with myself. But for that to be the preview was so funny because they take everything funny out of it and all the nuance.

• 7:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, exactly. They use like the official word, defecate. Okay, a couple more. This one, you were in New York and you were going out for the night and it said, "Wants sex, hates so and so's friends." We're not going to say her name. Hank meeting up. Saw Hank. Wants sex, hates this girl's friends, Hank meeting up. The wants sex was so funny. Wants sex. Want, like, A, I was like, she wants, this girl's horny.

• 8:25Rayna Greenberg?

  I think I, what I said to you is, I'm really horny and I want to have sex tonight. And then like, talk about this girl's friends that I don't like. And at the very bottom, I think I mentioned Hank.

• 8:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then, I think you have some from the same trip, but Raina went to this Vegas trip with our friends and I demanded to stay on the group chat. There was a point where it got a little annoying because you guys were planning to meet up, but I knew what I signed up for because I was there for all the hungover texts the next day. Like, Brian and I were like, don't remove us from the group chat.

• 8:49Rayna Greenberg?

  So, to give you guys a little background on what was happening here, I had gone on a trip. On this group chat is this guy that I've had a thing with. And separately, I was texting Ashley about like, trying to like, figure out my way through this airport. And I was like, I can't find the gate. I like, feel like such an idiot, I'm so hungover. I don't know how I ended up in this like phantom gate. So, that's the conversation I'm having with Ashley. And I'm like, I'm so brave to deal with this with, I hadn't gone, I slept for two hours. I was in Vegas all night. So, on the group chat, you send the preview.

• 9:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  The preview?

• 9:23Rayna Greenberg?

  He's on the group chat.

• 9:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's on the group chat. The preview says, Rayna Greenberg, "Lost, unsure how to proceed, strong."

• 9:32Rayna Greenberg?

  And I am faced with, do I just let him think this is clearly about him? Or do I explain the absolutely ridiculous other thing that I was talking about?

• 9:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, hold on, Raina, I didn't even, wait, I'm realizing this in real time, that you thought that he would think that you meant like,

• 9:50Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm so lost and broken about it.

• 9:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  I didn't realize until just now. I thought, we all knew you were talking about the airport.

• 9:58Rayna Greenberg?

  No.

• 10:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, I am so dead.

• 10:05Rayna Greenberg?

  So, he sees me texting you that morning.

• 10:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, so to be clear.

• 10:09Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm lost, I'm unsure how to proceed, and I'm so strong.

• 10:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  I sent through this text screenshot in the group chat and be like, this is a hilarious AI preview. "Lost, unsure how to proceed, strong." And he was like, whoa, I really fucked her up.

• 10:22Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 10:25Rayna Greenberg?

  So.

• 10:28Rayna Greenberg?

  I have Sophie's Choice at this moment. Let him think this is about him, or let him see what I actually texted you, which was also kinda bad. So, well, the actual text says, "We are in Terminal D, but there's only signs for A, B, and C. I had to ask three different people how to get here. Then I had to take a train to the mythical terminal with no signs, the Vegas airport. Just try to survive this with this hangover. We dare you." Then I'm like, just so everyone knows, I meant lost physically, not emotionally.

• 10:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  I wasn't even realizing what you were doing in that moment. I did not realize you were covering your tracks. I was like, she's explaining a lot. Go off, I guess.

• 11:05Rayna Greenberg?

  It was a lot of information to be like, I just, I sound so like physically lost and incapable, like I've never been to an airport before. And it was really hard to find this terminal. It was crazy. But I could not let him think.

• 11:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  That you were unsure how to proceed.

• 11:17Rayna Greenberg?

  I was lost, emotionally lost.

• 11:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then the other one that I hate that I didn't screenshot, but I mentioned it on this group chat, was earlier, the AI thing said a few different things, and it says, "Raina requests wheelchair assistance at airport."

• 11:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Raina requests wheelchair assistance.

• 11:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  When you were so hungover in the airport.

• 11:42Rayna Greenberg?

  I was so fucked up.

• 11:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  You were like jealous of everybody. Like, you're just like, can I ride on that?

• 11:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean.

• 11:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, the motorized things, like, you were like, I need it. Like, remember that time, like, when we were waiting in line, I think we were leaving Miami. That was one of the drunkest I got of like 2022. And I was like, can I board early for extra assistance? It's gonna take me a while to walk down the jet bridge. Like, you were just like, oh my God, I can't believe I have to walk and be a person.

• 12:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, somebody walked by me with a wheelchair, and I was just like, that looks nice.

• 12:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, even the golf carts, you're like, can I just get on it?

• 12:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you think there is a more hungover place in the world than Sunday at the Vegas airport?

• 12:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I mean, that's the thing. Like, that's why you were eating pizza that one. It was 9:00 AM, and you had a slice in the airport.

• 12:24Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, it was really crazy, though, because they do tell you to get dropped off at Terminal A, and then you go in, and there's only signs for A, B, and C. But my ticket said Terminal D, and there are zero signs at the Vegas airport for Terminal D. They are Nowhere to be found.

• 12:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  What?

• 12:38Rayna Greenberg?

  And then there's one that says like baggage claim this way, terminal D this way. And you get down to baggage claim and they're like, just kidding, it's not here. And so you have to like go to the end of all three terminals. Then you have to take a tram to this other terminal. I was like, the fact that like they make you navigate this with a hangover. I slept for two fucking hours.

• 12:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  It should be the easiest airport in the world.

• 12:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Literally.

• 12:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Given the circumstances. You know what? That brings me to what I've been thinking about airports. Sometimes you were in the airport and you were like, I shouldn't be here. Is this an airport? Where are we? The ceiling's not finished. Like it's, it's under construction.

• 13:09Rayna Greenberg?

  The tunnels.

• 13:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like it feels crazy. I feel like it's been happening more and more. I get it, under construction, but in LAX and plenty of other airports, more so LAX. I am in an area that feels like I am not allowed to be in there.

• 13:20Rayna Greenberg?

  There's two newer terminals in there. And both times I've gone, I've been like, where are we? And how do I get here?

• 13:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, well, we were, um, when I flew to that big Canada trip I took with my fiance. Like we got to the airport kind of early and I was determined to get back to the Centurion Lounge. It was a hike. He was like making fun of me. He was like, are we seriously doing this? We're walking 20 minutes to be in there for 10. And I was like, well, I'm hungry and I went to lounge.

• 13:41Rayna Greenberg?

  You like to do that.

• 13:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we were, I'm going to put a picture up. It was the craziest I've ever seen. It felt like we were on like a hard hat tour.

• 13:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, like there should be signs that say like pedestrians not welcome, staff only.

• 13:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, exactly. Like sometimes when I use the stairwell in a hotel and I'm like, I shouldn't be here. And there's just like, you know, cleaning supplies and they're just like, I shouldn't be here, but I'm using the stairs. Like that's how it feels.

• 14:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it was weird.

• 14:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I don't know. We just want to know if you guys have some funny like screenshots. It's, I hate that you can't go back to them.

• 14:08Rayna Greenberg?

  I know.

• 14:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Cause I look at it, I laugh and I accidentally open the text and it disappears. But these have just been getting us. I mean, they're so funny. Like the way that we text and how so many of you guys text, obviously, especially with like your girlfriends that AI picks up on these. And the way that they summarize them, it's unhinged.

• 14:23Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't believe that you didn't realize why I was explaining that in the group chat. That is so, I was thinking about him sitting on a plane with his hangover being like, what is she saying? Does she think I'm her boyfriend now?

• 14:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  She's lost.

• 14:36Rayna Greenberg?

  She's lost without me.

• 14:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was thinking you were being a little over explaining.

• 14:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, that's why. I was like, he cannot see this and think this. Okay, so we got this email and I just thought it was interesting. I think this is something that people come across quite a bit, like in the workplace, and I just wanted to like unpack it with you. So she's very funny. The subject line is, riddle me this ladies, what in the are we or aren't we is going on here?

• 15:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so I like riddle me this.

• 15:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I know, I was, I just, I love this.

• 15:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Should that be a new segment?

• 15:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe.

• 15:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Riddle me this.

• 15:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Wait, I like this.

• 15:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I like that.

• 15:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, so she coined the new segment. We're gonna keep this anonymous, like always, but.

• 15:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Anon, please.

• 15:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Anon. Okay. I've got a little dating stitch I want to run by you girls. I met this guy at work. We flirted. The kind of, not the HR report kind. So, you know, just, you know, they're keeping it classy.

• 15:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Eventually he asked for my number. Fast forward six weeks and we've been texting and talking literally every day, like high school crush on a landline levels of chatting. Four plus hour convos, four hours. She doesn't clarify whether this is text message convos or on the phone.

• 15:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, I thought she said.

• 15:43Rayna Greenberg?

  She says, we've been texting and talking every day.

• 15:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Four plus hour convos makes me think phone, but I guess you could be, I don't know. You wouldn't call a text a four hour convo.

• 15:53Rayna Greenberg?

  You could.

• 15:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  I guess. You sat and texted for four hours?

• 15:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I'll read the rest of this to you. This is why it leads me to believe it's just text messaging.

• 15:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 15:59Rayna Greenberg?

  He's even bought me dinner at work a few times, but we didn't eat together. Romantic and mysterious? The thing is, we haven't hung out outside of work, not once. I've made it super clear I'm flexible and can work around his schedule because yes, it's wild, but still, nothing. So riddle me this ladies, what in the are we or aren't we is going on here? Am I a phone relationship, a very elaborate pen pal situation? Help me decode this romantic Rubik's cube. So, works with him, this has been going on for about six weeks. They're talking constantly, whether or not it's on the phone. He brought her dinner to work a couple of times, but like dropped it off at her desk or something. It's not like they like sat in the cafeteria together and he's not asking her out.

• 16:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  But they are working together every day?

• 16:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 16:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  They work together every day? They text all night? I don't, I'm so confused.

• 16:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I think she's just like, this is, this is happening at work, but he's not asking to see me outside of work hours. Like, this is, he, he's really enjoying my time, my, my input, my flirting, whatever, but like, she's made it clear that she wants to see him and he's not doing it.

• 17:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, but she sees him every day.

• 17:04Rayna Greenberg?

  But she's like, I'm only seeing you at work. That's not like, we're not dating.

• 17:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around when we hear situations like this where you're being pen-powled. You don't see them. They live in your phone. You don't wake up every morning and go see them. So this is like, extra unique.

• 17:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people, listen, most people don't go to work anymore. But I guess like, in a professional works, yeah, I mean, I've certainly had these flirtatious relationships with people at work. Where I see them every day and you have to act kind of professional at work, but you're like,

• 17:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 17:33Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, you're on Slack or you're texting, you're being a little sexy and this can go on for quite some time. And I mean, I've definitely had these relationships at work, absolutely. But I've never had somebody not take it outside of the boardroom, if you will.

• 17:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, I wonder, can she find out anything? It sounds like he has a girlfriend.

• 17:50Rayna Greenberg?

  That, that would be my guess, is that he has somebody else that he's dating.

• 17:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or lives with, or something. Can she find that out? I mean, it's, it's really flying a little close to the sun for him to do that with somebody at work. And then after work, he's also texting with her all the time. Again, I still feel a little confused on the details. But she has to ask him straight up after six weeks of this. And she can be cute and coy about it, but she could be like, hey, I'd love to like, go out after work. I don't know if she said that, because she said, I made it super clear I'm flexible. I don't know what that means exactly, but this has to be like explicit and let him speak. And I don't know what else to say here.

• 18:30Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I think that she's avoiding asking the question because she's afraid about the answer is going to be.

• 18:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 18:35Rayna Greenberg?

  So I think that like, it's a totally normal question. Let's, let's grab a drink when we get out of here. I think you should ask the question. I think that it's totally normal to be flirting back and forth with somebody like this. And be like, hey, let's hang out. You can ask once. I think you're worried he's not going to say yes. And I think you're also worried that if you guys were going to go out, he would have asked already. So that's why you're not asking. But you've got to ask and that's your answer. Like this guy, I think, I don't know what the dynamic is between them. I don't know if she's a subordinate to him. I do think that like, obviously people prioritize their careers. It's a no-no to date your coworkers in a lot of places, especially somebody on a different level than you. So that could all be at play for him, where he's like, I'm just going to enjoy this emotional connection until she holds my feet to the fire. And then I guess I will deal with this. But you're gonna, it sounds like you're gonna have to ask him out and just see what happens.

• 19:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or keep doing this if it serves you. I don't care. I mean, whatever, you know, it doesn't have to be like, you gotta do that. I mean, it sounds like she does want more. You can have a fun, flirty pen pal thing if you want to, but if you want to go out with this guy, you gotta say a thing. And then I hate to say, I don't think he's gonna do it. There's a reason why they haven't. I could be wrong. He could be like, oh yeah, I didn't know you liked me like that. It's happened before.

• 19:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you could go out and then great, we're golden. But if not, then she's probably worried it's gonna be awkward at work. And then I think pull back on all that sexting. Just pull back. You know, you put yourself out there. He didn't bite. Completely pull back. If he questions you about that, I think you should be like, ah, just, let's just keep it at work. Let's just be like colleagues. Like you're well within your right. I don't let someone gaslight you about what's happening here. He's talking to you for four hours at a time. You're flirting. Like he knows what's happening here. Don't let yourself be gaslit about like, oh, what? I thought we were just friends. You know?

• 20:16Rayna Greenberg?

  He's definitely getting something from this emotionally.

• 20:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 20:19Rayna Greenberg?

  He likes the attention. He likes your company. He thinks you're great in all these ways. I mean, one of a few things is happening here. He has a girlfriend outside of work and that's why he's, he's doing this. I also think that he could be a little concerned about workplace dynamics in general, like

• 20:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Maybe.

• 20:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe he does, for some reason, think you just want to be friends and he's worried he's gonna say something and then that's gonna, you know, you're just a workplace harassment type of situation.

• 20:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, some guys like a bestie too. I don't know the nature of their texts. I mean, I wish she would have sent some screenshots because she doesn't say anything about sexting or super, super flirty, right? She says we flirted.

• 20:59Rayna Greenberg?

  But nothing crazy.

• 21:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So, and also she kind of makes it clear. It's not the HR report kind. Like also plenty of companies are fine if you date, intermingle, whatever. So I, again, don't have all the details. If I could read all their texts, I could decipher a lot more, but we all know that a lot of men need people to talk to. They're lonelier than ever, you know, like I, I don't know if it's that, like you said, he's getting something out of this.

• 21:23Rayna Greenberg?

  What I don't think is happening is that he's so clueless, you know?

• 21:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know, I know, I also just want, you know, you know, there's exceptions to every rule, but yes.

• 21:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally. He bought you dinner, you guys are talking all the time.

• 21:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  But he didn't eat with you?

• 21:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I mean, that's also really strange.

• 21:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's all really strange.

• 21:36Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, didn't eat with you says to me, I'm concerned about the optics of this in the workplace and that maybe people will say something to me about harassing you or something like that. That's crazy. People buy each other food, like.

• 21:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  I also feel like six weeks in, long conversations, assuming flirty, you would say something about the workplace. Like if that was holding you back, you would have addressed it in a month and a half. You would have said like, it's a bummer about work and I feel weird about it. Like some, there, there would have been a hint that he feels weird about it because of work.

• 22:09Rayna Greenberg?

  And if there is somebody else in the picture, he's not going to admit that to you. If you've spoken to him for six weeks and he has omitted that information, that he's dating somebody, you're not going to get that from him. So all, the only card you have to play here is, let's grab a drink after work. Just say those words and you will get your answer. And I think you're avoiding asking that because you're afraid that you're going to hit with either him, like you said, kind of gas on you and to like, well, we work together and you know, or saying no, but either way, like, I think you're confused. That'll be your answer. And there's nothing wrong with saying that. You haven't like put yourself out there so much, you know, like it's not embarrassing. And then if he says no, like you said, you dial back the communication. That's it. You don't have a long conversation of like, you led me on and but just, just stop the communication.

• 22:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Dial it back. She could have said something already. She said, I've made it super clear and flexible and can work around his schedule. If that's the case, if you have made it super clear, you want to hang out with him outside of this, if you've done the thing that we're telling you, you should do, then if you don't like the way this feels, then pull back now.

• 23:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 23:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  And, and find somebody else.

• 23:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. And if you don't want to ask him out, then you do have to pull back and just see if he, he will keep trying. He will keep texting you, calling you, all this. It seems like you guys have a connection. The attention's there. He likes the attention.

• 23:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I worry that he's just like, really likes the friendship aspect of it and the deep conversations that maybe they're having and needs somebody to talk to. We see it all the time.

• 23:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, you gotta ask him out.

• 23:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Keep us posted, please.

• 23:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I'm dying to know what happens here, but if you've made it super clear and he hasn't asked you out, just ask him out, see what happens.

• 23:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, let him ask you out. I'd love to grab a drink, you know, like, dangle it.

• 23:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I think she used to say, I'd love, let's grab a drink afterwards. Let him make the plans, but she's gonna have to like,

• 23:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Make the move.

• 23:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Say the move.

• 23:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Say the thing. Okay, well, once again, solving all your problems. But keep us posted, riddle me this girl.

• 23:58Rayna Greenberg?

  So we have a fantastic episode for you guys today. We have a wonderful guest back on the show. Her name is Brittany Piper. And her last time on the show was in May of 2020. The episode's May 11th, 2020. And the episode was about sexual assault. And she is a advocate, speaker, and assault survivor. And we did a fantastic episode about that then. And I want to point you guys to some resources. But April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. And we're not going to really focus on assault that much in this episode, just rather, trauma and processing that in your body.

• 24:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, as far as a trigger warning goes, it doesn't come up too much, but she tells her story in full on the first episode we have with her. And I'm assuming we did a trigger warning on that. So you're not going to hear much about that because she's told her story. And again, it is more all encompassing of all kinds of trauma and anxiety. It's a relatable episode to anybody. So I just want to be super clear about what you're about to hear when it comes to that type of content.

• 24:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, so if you find that triggering, just listen with caution. And of course, same goes for her previous episode. But there's lots of resources that she provides. And I'm on the website for the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. And they talk a little about just what this month means and bringing awareness to it and the theme of Sexual Assault Awareness Month. And it just highlights the importance of working together to address and prevent sexual abuse, assault, and harassment. So it's all encompassing. And the campaign focuses on enhancing public understanding of sexual violence, amplifying the voices of survivors, and empowering us to work together to promote the safety and well-being of Others and you know, of course, we want to always encourage you guys to be safe, use your voice and this website is fantastic for resources. If you need somebody to talk to,

• 25:40Rayna Greenberg?

  if you need information, browse articles, things like that. So that is the nsvrc.org.

• 25:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Well, thanks for sharing that. And again, today, we really hope you guys love the episode and we just love Brittany and we loved having her back. So we will get into it. We are just going to talk about our partners. Okay, I am telling you guys about a new partner, Simply Pop. We are so excited. Simply has launched a new prebiotic soda, Simply Pop, the new juicy soda. There are five flavors, pineapple, mango, lime, strawberry, citrus punch, and fruit punch. We love this. I mean, I obviously like, who doesn't want something that's going to be prebiotic and that's going to taste great, made with real fruit juice. Simply Pop supports gut health, so big on gut health with six grams of prebiotic fiber, no added sugars, sweetened with juices, monk fruit extract, supports immune health with zinc and vitamin

• 26:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  C. Simply Pop is flavor that pops. I really love all the flavors, but I'm just like a pineapple, mango, kind of tropical flavor. I also love a lime, any citrus fruit I love, but they all are really delicious. Again, made with real fruit juice and you pair that with the zinc and the vitamin C and it's going to support your immune health. You just really can't beat it. So this is all new. You guys might be hearing about it for the first time here today. And we really encourage you guys to check it out. You can go to cokeurl.com/simplypop and find out where you can try Simply Pop.

• 27:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, this is a PSA for anyone who rents. If you haven't heard of Bilt, you're about to thank us. Earning points on rent is now a reality when you pay for your rent through Bilt. You don't even have to check with your landlord to start earning points that you can use towards flights, hotel stays, fitness classes, and even your next rental payment. I just love all this, the stuff that they're doing. So let us break it down for you. There's no cost to join Bilt and as a member, you'll earn valuable points on rent and on your everyday spending. Bilt points can be transferred to your favorite hotels and airlines and even the ones you haven't heard of. There are over 500 airlines and 700,000 hotels and properties around the world. You can redeem your Bilt points towards Points can also be redeemed towards a future rental payment and unique experiences

• 27:44Rayna Greenberg?

  that only Bilt members can access. So if you're not earning points on rent, my question is, why not? Start earning points on rent you're already paying by going to joinbilt.com/gge. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com/gge. And make sure to use our URL so they know that we sent you. Joinbilt.com/gge to start earning points on your rent payments today.

• 28:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, and I am telling you guys about Hungry Root. I will say, one thing I don't love is going to the grocery store and like shopping for meals, getting a bunch of ingredients. This is the problem I love that Hungry Root has solved for me. And it really is just having like a personal nutritionist who knows what you want to eat, knows the meals that you want to cook, and just sends it all to you. So it makes it super easy to eat high-quality, nutritious food. And they keep in mind any diet or health goals, or dietary restrictions you might have. And they tailor recipes to a variety of lifestyles, whether you're gluten-free, dairy-free, you want high protein, all that kind of stuff. And they have these amazing recipes. They can be made in just 15 minutes or less. Over 15,000 recipes are shipped each week, so there's something for every taste and nutrition preferences. So again,

• 28:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  they're going to send you the recipe and the ingredients to make it. But also, you can just do all your other groceries as well. So you can get your hummus, you can get your snacks, you can get your chips, and your protein, your bread, all of it just sent to you. Really high-quality stuff. I'm very picky when it comes to proteins, like just-

• 29:06Rayna Greenberg?

  And produce.

• 29:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Chicken and produce, all food in general. Anything that's really not packaged, you know, and they really have the highest, highest quality. I recently made these crispy chili shrimp tacos. So good.

• 29:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Sounds so good.

• 29:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  The shrimp was great. They do these like mini banana bread loaves that I like love for breakfast. So they really have an array. I mean, they have everything you could want for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and snacks, and desserts, tailored to you. We just love it so much, you guys. We really think you should get on it and get these personalized recommendations. And they get smarter as they learn more about what you like and what you don't, which we love that, too. So you are going to love Hungry Root as much as we do. Take advantage of this exclusive offer. For a limited time, get 40% off your first box, plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com/gge and use code GGE. That's hungryroot.com/gge, code GGE, to get 40% off your first box, and a free item of your choice for life. Hungryroot.com/gge, code GGE. And let's get into it with Brittany.

• 30:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, guys, we are very excited to welcome back a guest to the show. She is a renowned speaker, author, and somatic experiencing practitioner, and an expert in sexual violence prevention and trauma-informed care. Over the past 13 years, she has delivered more than 400 programs across three continents as a rape survivor and a leading advocate on sexual violence prevention. She speaks to tens of thousands of people every year. She's also a forensic neurobiology expert, conducting trauma-informed trainings, and is the founder of the acclaimed Body First Healing Program. Her debut book is out now, Body First Healing. Please welcome back to our show, Brittany Piper.

• 30:44Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 30:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Thank you, thank you. It's so nice to have you here, and we recorded with you in May. The episode dropped May 11, 2020, and this is our first in-person episode with you.

• 30:54Speaker 00

  Wow, yeah, I didn't realize that really was a month before my son was born.

• 30:57Rayna Greenberg?

  You were so pregnant.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  So pregnant, yeah. I mean, I know I told you all I was really pregnant because I could hear it in the way I was breathing, but I didn't realize it was a month before.

• 31:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Literally a month before. Yeah. Well, you're here, and you have two kids now.

• 31:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Life is different.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  Yep, life is very different. I've been saying my book is like my third baby, so I just, you know, birthed the third one, but yeah, two human children.

• 31:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, congrats. I mean, we're just, you know, we love talking to you and following you and everything that you've built, and so you really have, you have the baby.

• 31:27Speaker 00

  The book baby.

• 31:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how you did that on top of two kids. I don't even have any kids. I can't write a book. Well, we had you on this show in 2020 to talk about sexual assault, and it was really the first episode we ever did on that, and you spoke about it with such grace and openness and honesty. I mean, your story is incredible, what you went through and what you've turned that into, and we still get messages today, I hope you do too, about how like meaningful that episode was to people.

• 31:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, and I think even when I reached out to y'all about, you know, having this conversation about the book, one of the really cool things about this book, and kind of a full circle moment, is there are two clients that I work with that agreed to share a little bit of their story in this book, Body First Healing. And one of the clients, she found me through that episode, which is actually mentioned in the book, so really, really cool. Yeah.

• 32:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I love that. I mean, I remember when you

• 32:16Speaker 00

  I think you came on and you were like, you know, just the DMs are open, everybody. I was like.

• 32:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, we were like, don't say that.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  You wanted people to reach out to you?

• 32:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  And then I was in touch with you after, after I'm like, how you doing? Can you keep up?

• 32:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  And because I just, people were reaching out to you and we're not going to retell your whole story. We want people to go back and listen if they want to really know that. But this, your experience with sexual assault is, you know, all tied in and what we're going to talk about today. And can speak to people who have experienced anything like that.

• 32:47Rayna Greenberg?

  So. So what was the inspiration for the book? Cause you sort of zoom out from just sexual assault and you expand just trauma in general, depression, people that just struggle with extreme anxiety.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:59Rayna Greenberg?

  So tell us about the inspiration for the book.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. So the book Body First Healing, it's essentially a somatic roadmap to trauma recovery. And although the book does focus on how to heal trauma through the body, it's also just a really good book to have when you're managing stress or challenges. I mean, it's a, it's a book for anyone, not just for, for trauma healing. But so for me, and I shared a little bit about my story when I was, when I was with y'all. But you know, I've, I've experienced multiple traumas in my life. When I was 20, I was sexually assaulted by a stranger who helped me change my flat tire. And I think that's really, really where a lot of our conversations circled around. But outside of that, I've also experienced loss. So my brother passed away in a car accident when we were in high school.

• 33:42Speaker 00

  And then when I was born, I was actually taken from my mom and I was put into foster care because there was methamphetamine found in our system. And so what's interesting is it wasn't until after my assault and after my brother passed away. So kind of like my late teens, early twenties that I recognized, okay, I've been through some shit in my life. You know, and I went down a really destructive path. I now look back and I'm like, that self destruction of the heavy drinking, the really shitty toxic relationships to help me distract and run from pain, the pill abuse. It was really just self-protection. It was my way of coping, managing, but it was not healthy. And you know, I ended up in a jail cell. I.

• 34:25Speaker 00

  Ended up in a hospital bed with alcohol poisoning. And I wish that I had known sooner about these kind of more, you could say, alternative methods to healing, because I had been in and out of therapy for many, many years. You know, traditional talk therapy. I mean, I'd talked about my trauma extensively. I was on different medications, but I felt like I would always get kind of pulled back into this vicious cycle of, what the hell is Brittany gonna do this year? Is she gonna end up in a jail cell again? You know, like, what's gonna happen? And it wasn't until I started doing some somatic therapy of working like with my nervous system and how trauma is stored in the body, that I really saw incredible progress. And it happened relatively quickly. And so I'm thirty-six now. That was around the age of twenty-two, twenty-three.

• 35:11Speaker 00

  And at the time, it wasn't really talked about. So I kind of went down this rabbit hole of like, what is this world of somatic therapy? And I'm like, why does no one know about it? So then, you know, I explored it personally and then I explored it professionally. And now that's what I do. I'm a somatic experiencing practitioner. So the book is like a culmination of my story. It's a relatable book, but it gives a tangible roadmap to healing through the body.

• 35:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. So we've had somatic therapists on the show, but if people don't know what that means, can you define what that means?

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. Soma means of the body. So, you know, what we do as somatic practitioners, but more specifically, I'm trained in something called somatic experiencing. There's different somatic modalities out there, but SE for short is a naturalistic approach to trauma recovery through the body. So what we do is we work with body memory rather than like verbal memory. Like when you work with a cognitive therapist, they're gonna walk you down the path of like, what happened? Where were you? You know? You get down into that whole spiel. But what we work with is body memory. So how trauma still shows up in the body and our impulses and our reactions and our organs.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  So like, for instance, if someone raises their voice at you and then you notice that like, oh, your shoulders are starting to pull forward and close off. And now your eyes are going down and your, your stomach is in knots. Like, that's old body memory. That is something that happened to you in the past. It's now showing up in the present. And so we work with that memory to help your body essentially have a new experience. So rather than like rushing and running away, rather than shutting down and dissociating, rather than pushing down anger, we give the opportunity for the body to start to explore here what it couldn't do back then. I sent her this meme yesterday and it said in quotes, anxiety is on your head. And then the person responds, well, my accelerated heart rates, severe stomach pain, difficulty breathing

• 37:03Speaker 00

  say otherwise. And it really reminded me of what you do.

• 37:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I mean, we all feel that. And I think if you're someone who really is in touch with your body, you know, all of those reactions where the drinking and the drugs numb that and you don't feel it. But like, I feel like I'm someone who's really into my body and I like can feel the things happening. And you want to be like, stop feeling like that. Like even if it's just getting nervous to do stand up. Or I remember I reread something once of like where anger starts and a lot of people get like a hot face or I feel like in my gut.

• 37:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, like different things, you like know those body feelings and you know, you think to yourself, like, I want to turn it off. Like if you feel it happening, you know, so.

• 37:47Speaker 00

  For somebody to say to you like, well, just don't think like that.

• 37:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, yeah, well, I would, why did I think of that? I would love to do that.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  I would love to not think like that. Thank you.

• 37:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Like sometimes I'm like, my brain, I'm good up here. The thoughts I'm having, if I feel really nervous to go do a thing, but it's like, I'm feeling it otherwise. And these might start to get a little shaky. Like these body responses are so real.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  And they're often in the driver's seat and we don't realize it too. So that's the difference between like in traditional therapy, when we're talking through stuff, right? There's like, there's what we know, and then there's what we feel. And so in the somatic space, we help essentially what we work with is the nervous system. We help the nervous system catch up with what the mind already knows. Like our mind knows, I'm not back in, you know, my nine year old self when my mom is throwing a punch at my dad, or my dad's throwing a punch at my mom, whatever. They're fighting. There's, there's physicality going on and I'm hiding in my bedroom. Like I know I'm not there, right? But your body and your nervous system is not a rational system. It doesn't know that.

• 38:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 38:48Speaker 00

  And 95% of the subconscious brain, which is where the nervous system operates, is in control. And more specifically, there's this thing, and I'm sure you all have heard it, maybe the the vagus nerve.

• 39:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, no.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  It's like, oh, okay.

• 39:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like Las Vegas?

• 39:03Speaker 00

  I mean, I wish, yeah.

• 39:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  But like, that's how you say it?

• 39:05Speaker 00

  So, yes, yeah, so it's V A G U S.

• 39:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, okay.

• 39:09Speaker 00

  Yes, said the same. Yeah, we could do that, too.

• 39:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  What happens with the vagus nerve stays in the mix?

• 39:13Speaker 00

  What happens, unfortunately, it doesn't.

• 39:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  It doesn't.

• 39:16Speaker 00

  Unfortunately, I wish it did, yeah.

• 39:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  So, the vagus nerve, it's the longest nerve in the body, but it's known as the information superhighway, and it connects from the brain down through the heart, the gut, and it's called the vagus nerve because it's the wandering nerve, so vagus means wanderer, so it touches, like, everything. But it sends information from the body up to the brain and from the brain down to the body. And in the early 2000s, we found through, kind of like, these advancements in medical technology through neuroimaging, that 80% of the vagus nerve messages go from the body up to the brain, and only 20% go from the brain down to the body.

• 39:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Which means that your body has a lot more say.

• 39:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, exactly. But that's why you do things and you know you shouldn't. I mean, it's just like, even just fighting with your partner, like, you're like, I know better. I learned in therapy not to speak with them that way, but I can't control my impulses that are kind of coming from everywhere else.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 40:11Rayna Greenberg?

  I think about just how these things manifest in my body. I thought I had a period of time where I was really depressed, and I said to a friend, like, I feel like my, my legs don't work. My knees hurt. Like, I, I'm so tired. I don't want to do anything. And yeah, I could tell myself, like, you're being ridiculous, take a walk, but like, I just, I couldn't. I physically felt it.

• 40:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. We always say that we cannot will our way into healing and recovery, even though we think that we can, like, you know, positive mindset, think positive. If your body is not on board, if you're not doing the somatic work as well, you're only going to get so far. And you often find that you'll get better for a short time, but then it's like, oh, shit, here I am, I'm, I'm back in that cycle, I'm back in that pattern again. But specifically, what you're talking about, Rena, with depression, is you're talking about the helplessness that happens in the body when the body goes into kind of like a freeze response, or what we call shutdown. The definition of trauma is any experience that overwhelms the nervous system. And when that happens, your nervous system essentially gets stuck in survival mode.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  So, fight, flight, shutdown, freeze, fawn, and functional freeze.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  But what happens is that when you go into survival mode, your body gets flooded with adrenaline and cortisol, our stress hormones, which like mobilize us to fight or flee. And if we don't allow our body to physically fight or flee, or if it's like an emotional thing where I'm feeling anger, which is fight, or I'm feeling that fear or anxiety, which is flight. We're really good as these human animals at suppressing our emotions, which we can talk all about. So if we suppress that fight or flight, the adrenaline and cortisol is still within our body. And it turns into like this chronic stress, which then creates chronic illness, chronic disease. But when we push it down, we push ourselves into what we call shutdown, which is like hibernation.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  And so your body starts to like go into these very exhaustive states of conserving energy. That's where depression, burnout, fatigue live. But all that adrenaline and cortisol is still trapped within the body.

• 42:12Rayna Greenberg?

  And is it the same thing with like, I have a friend who suffers from like extreme anxiety. She finds it totally paralyzing and she can't talk herself out of it because I think her body has reacted in a way that's like.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  Or like all the chemicals.

• 42:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, she can't tell herself the truth, which is like, you're safe. It's going to be fine. Let's work through this.

• 42:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Is that similar, like the, those chemicals are just kind of trapped in the body?

• 42:31Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah. So what we say is that we have to show the body and the nervous system, not tell it. So like, even though she's saying, I know I'm safe, the body is feeling a different way. And the nervous system, it operates from the subconscious brain, but more specifically, the two lower regions of the brain, which is the emotional brain, which is the midbrain, and then the survival brain, the brain stem. And the language here in these two regions is emotion, feeling, sensation and impulse. So the language is not cognition, which is why we can't tell our nervous system, like get over the anxiety, you're safe, like move through the depression, you're fine, be happy, like buck up. The nervous system is not going to be on board. It has to feel it. We have to show it.

• 43:14Speaker 00

  But what we're talking about here is a chronic stress response cycle. So what's really fascinating about like somatic experiencing is it was developed by Dr. Peter Levine in the seventies at Berkeley. It was a fringe movement back there, which when you think about Berkeley during the seventies.

• 43:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 43:32Speaker 00

  So he was like, yeah, so which is maybe why people didn't take it seriously for a while. I don't know, but he started to explore trauma through the body, but he was looking through the lens of studying animals in the wild. And he's like, animals face threat routinely, every single day in the wild. So like, why are they not traumatized? Because animals have the same nervous system that we as human animals have. They're identical. But what's different about animals is that animals allow themselves to like go through what we call the stress response cycle. And if you see me on the screen, I'm doing a circle with my fingers. And the stress response cycle is here's the adrenaline and cortisol, like I'm triggered by something or I'm stressed. And there's the adrenaline cortisol, my body's

• 44:17Speaker 00

  going into fight or flight, and I'm going to mobilize this or what we call discharge it out of the body. This usually happens through like shaking, trembling, breathing, sweating. But we, you know, like when we're anxious, we're like, oh no, I just need to calm down. I need to stop shaking. It's like we talk ourselves out of that, but then we get stuck in that stress response cycle. So with the anxiety, right? How often are we taught like make our anxiety go away or anxiety hacks to get rid of it and like calm down? It's more so of like, how can I actually welcome the anxiety? Welcome the shaking in a small way. And what that does is it allows the body to metabolize the adrenaline cortisol, release it. And then we complete that stress response cycle. But for most of us, because

• 44:59Speaker 00

  we don't know how to do that, or we're, you know, our world kind of conditions us to like push our feelings away, or especially for women, not okay to feel our feelings, not okay to show our feelings. What happens is it can create a lot of those kind of like emotional, physical, you know, health issues.

• 45:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so interesting about the animals, because I think my dog is, his stress response is he just pants and he just like has to get it out or he'll shake. Every time he goes to the groomer, he's shaking, he's panting. He started flaking one time when he was really anxious. And I asked my vet, she was like, it's a stress response. Like I know all his

• 45:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  things. And here we are, just like, don't show anybody that you're, you're anxious, you know?

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 45:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Don't start panting.

• 45:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I think in romantic relationships, especially when you have children, so much of the housework falls on women, the child raising falls on women. Also, go out and work, make money. And it's like, who has the time?

• 45:48Speaker 00

  No.

• 45:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Ever, it's just like stamp it out, go out.

• 45:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Oh, man, I have a lot to say about the whole women thing.

• 45:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 45:54Speaker 00

  And it's funny, because my husband and I were just talking yesterday. I'm like, do you see this article? We're driving in the car. I'm like, I said, parents are under a family crisis.

• 46:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  Parents are burnt out. It's now been, you know, deemed by the CDC.

• 46:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  But seriously, we're overwhelmed. And I'm like,

• 46:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  Think about, honestly, how it is for like, people who are parents in this day and age compared to like, our parents. Back then, like, the cost of living wasn't as much. The cost of raising children wasn't as much. Like, inflation wasn't as high. And so it's like, we're all expected to be working, but then we pay this boatload of money for childcare, you know? And I have a lot to say about it, obviously, but.

• 46:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 46:35Speaker 00

  That's a whole other topic, I know.

• 46:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we're less healthy than we ever were.

• 46:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, I know there's a lot of factors, and there's genetics and microplastics and all the things, but I think stress and anxiety plays so much into your physical health.

• 46:47Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 46:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I'm not going to make any crazy claims. I don't think it causes cancer. I think you cannot deny what's happening in your body.

• 46:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  When you are having those types of emotions.

• 46:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've been sharing a lot about this lately, and I feel like it's actually, it's becoming a much more prevalent conversation. But, you know, especially in women. So women, they account for 80% of the autoimmune diseases in this country.

• 47:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:08Speaker 00

  They're twice as likely to experience anxiety, depression, you know, emotional, but also chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, chronic pain and digestive issues than men.

• 47:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:18Speaker 00

  And again, these are all correlated back to stress. And I think her name is Dana Jack. She's a Harvard psychologist, but she coined this term called self silencing. And it's something that a lot of women do as a way to accommodate people, to make ourselves small, to push down our anger. But what happens is that, again, when you suppress that anger and the emotional charge that comes with it, which is adrenaline, cortisol, that anger has to go somewhere. And so it's like, you're burying it alive.

• 47:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm hmm.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  And it starts to turn inward on the body. And that shows up as a lot of these chronic autoimmune health issues that we're seeing. My mom was diagnosed with breast cancer back in 2020, 2021, around that time.

• 48:00Speaker 00

  And every doctor she saw, they said it was probably kind of dated back to trauma that was unresolved and the intense amounts of stress that she had within her body. Because when your body is stuck in that stress response cycle, every system in your body essentially goes on the back burner.

• 48:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 48:15Speaker 00

  Your immune system, your hormone system, your respiratory system, your digestive system, your cardiovascular system, I mean, everything, endocrine system, everything gets turned down so that the nervous system and survival can take priority number one. Yeah, lots to say about that, but especially for women, it's a struggle. So much stress, so much damn stress.

• 48:38Rayna Greenberg?

  So where do we start? You know, you talk about naming your core wounds and the trauma responses that you do have and trying to figure out what those are before we can like address them. So where do we like start?

• 48:48Speaker 00

  For sure. Yeah, maybe just to like make it more relatable, I can share one little snippet of my story.

• 48:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, share as much as you want.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  So I know I shared a little bit, I know we've talked about it extensively, but back in 2009, I was 20 years old at the time, I was assaulted by a stranger who helped me change my flat tire. And then following that, there was a two-year like grueling trial process. And so we didn't go to trial for two years, the case was postponed or what we call continued nine times, which meant that nine times over that two-year period, I had to like go through like almost like a dress rehearsal. I had to meet with my legal team, go through the depositions, listen to the taped statements again, practice being on the witness stand, like it was really, really hard. And so during that two-year period was, that was probably one of the lowest points in my life.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  I was really struggling with, you know, mental health issues, suicidality, eating disorders, alcohol abuse, pill dependence, and I found myself in a really, really shitty relationship. So the trial came to an end, he was sentenced to 60 years. And I think I thought at the time, like, once he's sentenced, or if he's convicted, I'll be fine. All of my problems will go away.

• 49:56Rayna Greenberg?

  It'll be over.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like I can get rid of the depression medication, the anxiety, like I was on a lot of different medications at the time, and it did not get better. And in fact, it got worse. And I think it's because I didn't have like the trial to like put all of like my focus on anymore. And so thirty days after the trial, I was in the car with my boyfriend, again shitty boyfriend, who was pulled over for drinking and driving. And when the police officers went to just pull me out of the car, just to give me a ride home, in my drunken mind, I had like this flashback of the night of my assault of a man touching me in a car. And so I went back into what I now know as a practitioner, I went into a trauma reenactment.

• 50:38Speaker 00

  My nervous system tried to fight back. So during the initial assault, I actually went into a fight response, but I was overpowered, which meant that my nervous system then went into a freeze or what we call tonic immobility. And I know last time we talked about how seventy percent of survivors of assault, their nervous system will go into a freeze response. And so when I went back into that fight response, that obviously did not bode well for me with some police officers. So I ended up in a jail cell with two counts of battery on an officer with injury. But it was in that jail cell, I was in there for about two or three days because my parents didn't want to like bail me out at first. They want to teach me a hard lesson. But my body experienced things that I had never experienced before.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  Like I've never been through like drug withdrawal or anything, but I would assume it maybe looks like that. Like there was shaking, there was trembling, there was sweating, there was like intense tears that I, it felt like I had been storing this for a long time. And I remember leaving that jail cell, feeling like so different in my body, I'm even like tearing up talking about it. I felt so different, like I felt like free for the first time, I felt lighter. And it makes sense, there's a quote by Peter Levine, he says that trauma is like an internal straitjacket where a devastating moment becomes like frozen in time. And I feel like that was my nervous system releasing, like that fight response that I needed to get out for all that time.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  And that's when I became obsessed. I was like, what the fuck just happened to me in that jail cell? You know, and I remember going to my therapist and she said, you know, she was a talk therapist. She's like, I think you need to see a somatic therapist. And so that kind of opened the door. But all that to say, your question, like where do we start?

• 52:25Speaker 00

  A lot of the work that we did at the beginning was actually just learning how to like, listen to my body again because I had become so disconnected from it. So that was like as simple as, can you tell me how your body knows to go to the bathroom? And I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, I was so confused. And I'm like, well, that's interesting. I guess like I feel it like down here. Like, how does your body show you when you're thirsty? How do you know that you want, you know, like Taco Bell instead of McDonald's? Like, how is your body telling you this? Not that I eat any of that anymore, but like, how does your body tell you a yes? How does your body tell you a no? And so like, it felt so rudimentary and like, very elementary, but I'm like,

• 53:06Speaker 00

  learning the language of my body. And for a lot of us after trauma, that's kind of the first step is like, regaining that agency of like, I'm allowed to listen to my body when it says no. And I'm allowed to like, honor that. I'm allowed to listen to my body when it says yes and like, honor that. So that's actually where it starts, is learning like, the unique language of your unique body. That's number one. And then number two is starting to actually learn like, what your foundation of what feeling safe and okay is, which is what we call resourcing.

• 53:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, what is resourcing? And we know it's in the book in depth, but just like a broad overview.

• 53:44Speaker 00

  I love using analogies. Imagine like your nervous system is like a security system. And it's always working again, subconsciously in the background, scanning for like, am I safe? Or am I in danger? Am I safe? Am I not in danger? And this happens in three places. It happens internally in your body. And again, this is happening outside of our awareness. So like, is my heart beating out of my chest? Or is it calm? Is my stomach clenching? Or is it calm? It happens outside in your environment. So like, is there a car coming at me right now? Or can I cross the street and I'm okay? And then it happens between you and other nervous systems. So like, we're all scanning each other right now. Like, all of us. Like, we're taking in signs of welcome or signs of warning. And so we call this inside, outside, between.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  But when you have trauma or an experience that's overwhelmed your nervous system and you're stuck in that stress response, imagine it's like that security system is broken. It's constantly alarming for danger, even if the danger isn't there. And so what we have to do is the first step is actually building up cues of safety. So if it's saying like danger, danger, danger, it's like, can we actually start to notice what feels safe or not threatening? And it might be something as simple, again, elementary as like noticing the velvet patterns like on the curtain behind you, like starting to take in the room, like noticing the pink of the letters and the different contrast here of like, you know, these are banana leaves, right? Did I just make that up?

• 55:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think they are.

• 55:10Speaker 00

  Palm leaves. I don't know. So but like, again, you're showing your nervous system through the senses that there are actually cues of safety, even if it's just neutral like around. And as you do that, you then bring your awareness to like, what does this now feel like in my body? And you might notice like, oh, my shoulders just dropped. Or like, I took a deeper breath down into my belly, or wow, I just feel like I settled back into my chair. And it's that experiencing, that somatic experience that shows the nervous system, we can actually be safe and present here and that what happened back then is actually not happening right now. So yeah, that's kind of step number two.

• 55:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Is breathing part of this? Like, are you big on breathing exercises?

• 55:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 55:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 55:54Speaker 00

  Breathing can certainly support the nervous system in finding more regulation. So sometimes like we follow the breath just as a way to be like, where is the nervous system at right now? Like just tracking, you're like, oh, I'm just holding my breath right now. And it's like, ah, so you're probably in a bit of like a fight or flight response. So we can track the breath to just see like, where am I at? How am I feeling? But also we can use the breath to also guide the nervous system. So like in moments where we are noticing that we're holding, it's like, can I imagine what it would be like to take a breath right now? And then it's like, oh, and my body just followed that and now I'm doing it.

• 56:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  It is weird when you realize you've kind of like haven't breathed pretty deep in a while. You're like, have I been holding my breath? Not to the point of like not being able to breathe, but it's just, you feel that.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  I don't notice I'm not, well, when I, we get Botox. The doctors are always like, remember, I start to panic when I get Botox and I get really worked up and the doctor's always like, you gotta remember to breathe.

• 56:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  You gotta breathe, yeah.

• 56:47Speaker 00

  And I don't remember to breathe.

• 56:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like at any sort of doctor's appointment because people are anxious.

• 56:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know?

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 56:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or the dentist or whatever.

• 56:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it's so interesting just having to tell yourself like you're not in danger anymore. I mean, what you went through was very extreme. You were brutally attacked and then had to go through a very horrible, long experience with the trial. And you could tell yourself all day long, what happened to me was rare, it's probably not going to happen again. I'm not in that car anymore. I'm not alone at a gas station, like none of these things, but like you do carry it for so long. So like talk therapy, yeah, I could talk all day long about how I'm safe, but I like what you're doing in terms of this.

• 57:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, again, there's what we know and then there's what we feel and they're often, they're often mismatched.

• 57:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. So let's focus on some other emotions and maybe going through how to like deescalate physically. Do you want to start with anxiety? Do you want to start with depression?

• 57:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we can start, let me give another analogy because I think that as I give this analogy, it's going to make a ton of sense for each of these kind of emotional components that we have. So I'm also trained in something called polyvagal theory, which is like the newest. Are you, I love the smile over there. Are you familiar with it?

• 57:52Rayna Greenberg?

  No, it just sounds interesting.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  Oh, okay, cool. Another fun word like vagal, vagus, well, but it does come from the vagus nerve.

• 57:57Rayna Greenberg?

  The vagus.

• 57:57Speaker 00

  So, yeah.

• 57:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, got it.

• 57:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, vagus nerve. Yeah, so polyvagal, it is kind of a, yeah, it's kind of a funny word, isn't it? So polyvagal is the newest, like the upgraded science of the nervous system. It was developed back in the nineties by Dr. Stephen Porges, but he uses an analogy of a ladder to kind of illustrate the nervous system. So it's a ladder with three sections, top, middle and bottom. At the top of the nervous system ladder is like your rest and digest state. It's what we call ventral vagal. When you are triggered or when you're, you feel activated, your nervous system comes down to the middle of the ladder, which is your fight or flight state. So we call your mobilized state.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  And again, if we don't allow ourselves to fight or flee, or we suppress the emotional charge of anger or fear, then we end up down at the bottom of the ladder, which is what we call shutdown. It's kind of like a freeze response, but it's called your dorsal vagal collapse. And this is where we immobilize. Now, most people would assume that regulation or having like a regulated nervous system is being at the top of the ladder all day. That's actually not what regulation is. Regulation is being able to move up and down that ladder all day long without getting stuck, which is what we call flexible nervous system.

• 59:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Got it.

• 59:11Speaker 00

  And we actually do that roughly 100 times a day if you have a regulated system. So that means that like you're going in and out of moments all day long through anxiety, through anger, frustration, when someone like freaking cuts you off and you're, you know, you feel a little bit of anger for a moment and then it starts to calm down. But when we experience something like anxiety, for instance, that's usually experienced in that flight response. And then depression is usually experienced down at the bottom of the ladder, down in kind of that, that shutdown response. So that's where they live on the ladder.

• 59:42Rayna Greenberg?

  It's interesting. I don't know if you ever saw this clip, Ashley, Dr. Ramani Dravoslo, who came on our show, she was talking about people that like quote unquote, they're the highest level of like mental health are able to move through those cycles very quickly.

• 59:52Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:53Rayna Greenberg?

  And that, you know, you're able to process this kind of stuff. It's not that you don't feel it, you feel it, but you're able to process it, kick it out, you know?

• 59:59Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what we call nervous system resilience, emotional resilience. And a lot of people will refer to that as like your window of tolerance, which we go up and down. It's kind of like this wave that we go up and down all throughout the day. But yeah, it's not about having like this rigid system that gets stuck in anxiety or down in depression and fatigue, or even stuck at the top, which is just emotional avoidance and suppression, right? Like muscling through, which is what, again, we're all really good at. But over time, that can start to create a lot of those health issues.

• 1:00:31Rayna Greenberg?

  So can we talk about some more of the actionable somatic tools?

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 1:00:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Cause like for anxiety for me, like sometimes we wake up in the morning and Ash and I have sent these texts so many times. It's just like, I'm so overwhelmed. I don't know what to do. I like, I'm paralyzed by it sometimes where I'm like, I'm looking at this giant list and I don't know what to do.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. So I'm even seeing that now. Your eyes just got big and you just leaned forward. So SEs, we're kind of like trained just in the same way that Peter used to study animals in the wild. That's what we study is like, we'll pick up on little micro movements and be like, ah, what's going on right here? And someone be like, oh, I didn't realize that was going on. So when you say that it feels paralyzing, maybe I'll ask you that question. Is it like hard to get up and get out of bed? Or does it feel like, like physically paralyzing or like mentally paralyzing or both?

• 1:01:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Sometimes it's mentally paralyzing and I'm really, I feel really lucky. I don't suffer from extreme anxiety. I'm able to make a list, work through the List and I have a lot of people around me that are really great at what they do and I'm lucky to have a support system at work. But yeah, sometimes I feel like there's so much, it feels intermountable. Where, where do I start? And so I just stare at the fucking list.

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:35Rayna Greenberg?

  And I pace around the house, pour another coffee, walk around.

• 1:01:38Speaker 00

  Right. Just distract. Yeah. Yes. So it sounds like you have a good strategy in place, but even just like the pacing, right? The pacing helps your body to reorient. So like if we're just staring here and then it's like, I'm finding that now I'm collapsing into my bed and I can't do like, I can't do a thing because I'm so overwhelmed. I'm so exhausted. I don't even want to think about the list. The pacing actually helps to allow your body to let out some of that adrenaline cortisol. So you already, you're already naturally doing that. Yeah. So what's funny is like, I get this one question a lot. Do y'all have animals?

• 1:02:11Rayna Greenberg?

  I do. Well, I, Raina doesn't.

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

  She does.

• 1:02:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I do.

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:02:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  Do you have a cat or a dog?

• 1:02:15Rayna Greenberg?

  I have a dog.

• 1:02:15Speaker 00

  Does your dog get zoomies?

• 1:02:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:17Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:02:18Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, I wish he got them more, but.

• 1:02:20Speaker 00

  I know.

• 1:02:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Cause he's, I don't know, he's not a big player, but he gets them.

• 1:02:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:24Rayna Greenberg?

  And it's like the cutest thing ever.

• 1:02:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:02:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Speaker 00

  So zoomies, so for those who are listening, like, you know, our pets get zoomies.

• 1:02:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  When they're like excited or when they like, that's their way of self-regulating and letting out energy. But kids also get zoomies.

• 1:02:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 1:02:40Speaker 00

  So like my children turn into freaking terrors late at night. Any parent who's listening, they'll be like, yes, my children do the exact same. Y'all know what I'm talking about.

• 1:02:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 1:02:48Speaker 00

  Kids get zoomies at night and people are like, how do I calm down my kids? And what's actually important to recognize is that like your, your kids are trying to naturally discharge or release some of that adrenaline and cortisol that's been accumulated throughout the day.

• 1:03:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, that's recess too.

• 1:03:04Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:03:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Like we needed to do recess.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:06Rayna Greenberg?

  We're kids. They can't sit all day.

• 1:03:08Speaker 00

  Absolutely. You know what I heard the other day though? It's funny. My husband, I wish y'all could just be a fly on them all for our conversations.

• 1:03:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:13Speaker 00

  A couple of weeks ago, I was like, did you know that recess, I was hearing the other day, recess has been minimized in some places to like only 20 minutes.

• 1:03:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, no. Oh, I thought ours was 15 minutes growing up. I don't think it was that long.

• 1:03:25Speaker 00

  Well, maybe I just felt like mine was a long time.

• 1:03:27Rayna Greenberg?

  It was longer than, I mean, but we had, we just had it better. We gym too.

• 1:03:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Went back to class in her sweaty gym clothes. Like it's not the same. They don't guys. I thought recess was obsolete in some schools even. That was just so important.

• 1:03:40Speaker 00

  Yes. It's not even given like every single day in a lot of schools. Like it's just every other day or it's like an elective if the parents want to do it.

• 1:03:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Speaker 00

  But kids need to like let out that energy. Yeah. So with anxiety and like when we have all this kind of pent up stress, I like to also think of another analogy. Y'all are gonna be like, I do not want to hear the analogy.

• 1:04:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, they're really great. It helps. Well, I'm a, I like to visualize too. So.

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  Yes. Okay, good. So think of it like a pressure cooker, right? Like you have all these stress hormones that have been building up all throughout the day, accumulating in this pressure cooker. And if we're not taking the time to like open the lid and release some of that stress, that is how we get to the place where it's like we are either that pressure cooker is exploding, which is like panic attacks or rage or anxiety attacks or rage frustration. Or it implodes, which is where we end up in like burnout and depression. So with kids, naturally, again, because they're not these like conditioned creatures, they're like, I'm gonna fucking go crazy tonight and I'm gonna just start running around the living room. I'm gonna rip everything down. I'm gonna turn into like a terror. But that's their body's natural way of like

• 1:04:47Speaker 00

  opening the lid and releasing some of that so that then they naturally come back into, oh, now it's rest and digest. It's nighttime.

• 1:04:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:55Speaker 00

  So like, these are the natural rhythms that we as humans have. Again, we just get so conditioned to like holding that lid closed so that we don't ever let any of that stress out. So when we have anxiety, I like to think of instead of calming down, what does your anxiety want to do right now? And just think of it as like, instead of I am anxious, say that like my body is anxious right now. And we call this separate witness consciousness. And sometimes that can help to kind of separate it and be like, my body is experiencing anxiety. And is there something it wants to do right now?

• 1:05:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:28Speaker 00

  Maybe I just like want to pace. So I'll often ask like, is there something your body wants to do right now? And I'll see my client get up on the other side of the zoom screen. They might pace. They might start to like kind of shake out their arms. Yeah, they might start to like roll their necks. They might do a stretch, which is what we call a pandiculation. So it's like their body tenses. Right? And then it's. That's a natural discharge. So you're already doing the thing without realizing that you're doing the thing.

• 1:05:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I always say, like, you know, some people journal, I take walks. I just, I really enjoy, just like, I like to move my body, look around, see other sensations around me, look at houses, feel the weather, you know, hear sounds around me. That, that helps me.

• 1:06:06Speaker 00

  That's a lot of it, too. The, so exactly what you were just talking about, like, listening into the world around you, that's what we call orienting. So our body is always orienting, again, subconsciously, this whole scanning that's happening. But when we get stuck in survival mode, we don't realize it, but we're stuck in what we call a defensive orienting posture. So like, our muscles are usually constricted. We're often, as we were saying, holding our breath without recognizing it. We're often holding our bellies and our viscera. Our spine changes. So, I mean, everything changes in the body, but so does our sensory motor system. So like, when you're stuck in fight or flight, for instance, your lower ear muscles are activated to listen to the sounds of low-range frequencies, which is

• 1:06:51Speaker 00

  the sounds that predators make, evolutionarily speaking. So like, loud bangs, thuds, like, that can startle you. When you're in like, a rest and digest state, your middle ear muscles are activated to listen to the sounds of mid-range frequencies, which are humans. So like, you can take in, you know, voices better, you can have deeper conversations. But that's why, like, when people are in fight or flight, and they're like, I, I feel like my partner just does not listen to me. Like, doesn't hear a word that I'm saying.

• 1:07:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:07:18Speaker 00

  Or fighting, it's like, yes, because you're not primed to listen to each other right now. You are primed for protection. You know, a good cheat, to think of it, too, is like, the top of the nervous system ladder prioritizes connection. So like, when you're in rest and digest, what your system is prioritizing is connection to yourself and your body, connection to the world, and connection to others. When you move down into fight or flight, you're now prioritizing protection.

• 1:07:43Speaker 00

  And then at the bottom, your body and your nervous system is prioritizing disconnection. So this is where we isolate, we disconnect from others, we can disconnect from our bodies. There's a lot of dissociation that can happen. We have higher levels of numbing hormones, which is why like our grief can be so intense that we don't feel it.

• 1:08:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  I've always said you just have to get the pain out of your body or whatever you're dealing with. And whether we're talking about breakups or when we talked about my dog passing away, like things like that. I'm like, you just, and I think women typically do it better, you know, whether it's the crying and then a lot of times unloading all your friends and things like that. But to me, it's like an exercise. I mean, I just have like, I gotta get this out and I can't believe how much better I feel afterwards. And it's like, I'm also like, uh, which exercise is it? Like when I was younger, if I felt really like angry or stressed, I would run. And now I get on the Peloton and I literally like a different person when I get off. But I remember going through one breakup that I was so anxious, my heart rate was beating so fast already. And the cardio made it worse. And I was like, I actually have to come down.

• 1:08:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  So it was like, my body doesn't need the jacking at my heart rate when I'm already like crazy. I have to like go to yoga and bring it down more. I don't know. So that's just me, but I wouldn't, Raina knows, I mean, she's been friends with me this long. We've been on the road, like, I'll be like, I can't do anything until I go to yoga. I can't do anything until I go.

• 1:09:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Find a gym and, you know, work some of this out. Like I just have to get it out.

• 1:09:06Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:09:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I don't know if like exercise is part of what you talk about. I mean, also everybody's different.

• 1:09:12Speaker 00

  Yes. I always say there's learning about the nervous system, which this book definitely teaches you all about the science. And then there's learning about your nervous system, which can be something totally different. And this book helps you with that, too. There's what we call the nervous system or the polyvagal maps that like you can fill out to learn like what triggers my nervous system.

• 1:09:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Sure.

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  And do a fight response, and do a flight response. That's gonna look so different for everyone.

• 1:09:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So like you talk about movement for anxiety. What about like breathing or yelling or talking? Like, is there other things verbally you can do?

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  Limb shaking? Yeah, limb shaking could definitely be one of them. I'll give you the, what I call the three E formula to kind of like work through it. So the first thing you want to do is when you notice that you're experiencing anxiety, the first E is experience. And the question is, how is my body experiencing this right now? And you might notice like I'm holding my breath or my muscles feel constricted or I'm feeling foggy in my brain or my stomach is in knots. So first, we want to track the experience. And then the second E is then ask the question, is there any way that my body wants to naturally express this right now? So that might be that like, yeah, there is a little bit of stretching or there's a little bit of like shaking that wants to happen. Or sometimes like for me, I notice when I get anxious, there's just like some trembling in my hand and I'm like, can I just allow this to be here?

• 1:10:28Speaker 00

  And so experience, express, and as we express, we often notice that there's then expelling. That is the discharge of the adrenaline and cortisol that happens. And you'll usually know that a discharge is happening when it's followed by tingling in your limbs. So for instance, when you go into fight or flight, like all of your blood motility goes outward to your limbs to mobilize you to fight or flee. That's why like when you're anxious, you feel fidgety. You might feel hot or sweaty. When you're in that fight response, you feel really heated. And so what follows usually that is coolness. So there's usually like a cool tingling in like your hands or limbs. You might notice that there's a sigh, there's a swallow.

• 1:11:09Speaker 00

  And as you go into rest and digest, you also might notice that like you literally might burp or your stomach is like gurgling because your digestive system is like coming back online. So it's going to look different for everyone, but usually some kind of physical movement. However, I will say the one thing I've noticed a lot like on social media is like people being like, okay, we just need to get out our emotions and just release it. So like, let's do some rage screaming or like some shaking or some jumping up and down. And the thing is with that is that if anytime, let's say it's anger, okay? Anytime anger comes up and you're like, oh, it's here. I gotta go do that thing and I gotta get it out. Then what's going to happen is like, It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. Yeah, it's here. I gotta get it out.

• 1:11:51Speaker 00

  Then what's going to happen is anytime that comes up and you try and use some kind of like tool or hack to get it out, you will always be doing that. Because it's like you're not sending the message to your body that this anger is actually allowed to be here. Another analogy I use, I told you, there's a lot of them, is like a hole in the sand. So like, think of, you know, a hole in the sand at the beach. And this hole is what we call your capacity. So like, for instance, it's not that the anger is too big in this moment. Like if we're overwhelmed, it's that our capacity to be with the anger is too small. So we want to grow that capacity, which is that hole in the sand. So the anger represents the water that rushes in to the hole.

• 1:12:34Speaker 00

  And our tools, like the breathing or the shaking, or you know, whatever, whatever things we do, that represents the sand buckets that we use to get the water out. So if every time there's water in that hole and we go rush to use the sand buckets to get it out, that hole is never going to expand. But if we allow a little bit of the anger to come in, it starts to erode away at the hole and it becomes bigger. And so that's one of the hangups I do see right now in the somatic space is that people are so obsessed with the tools that they're always jumping for them, rather than just noticing, can my body be with the experience? Doesn't know how to naturally express it.

• 1:13:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:13:10Speaker 00

  And, and expel it. So the tools can be helpful, but not leaning into them all the time. If that makes sense, because then it almost becomes like another form of avoidance. I need to get this out.

• 1:13:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Something you have to do.

• 1:13:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, because I'm trying to figure out what the difference is. Because you are also endorsing those tools.

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:13:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're just saying like a little more like self-reflection first.

• 1:13:29Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:13:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  A little more like sitting with it.

• 1:13:31Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:13:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Not relying, being, and then you become dependent on it.

• 1:13:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're like, oh, okay. Now every time I have anger, I gotta go scream.

• 1:13:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:13:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I'm at work.

• 1:13:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  And this is weird and you know, like, could we just?

• 1:13:43Rayna Greenberg?

  You start bringing a pillow to work.

• 1:13:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:13:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I, and I think because the, the, the tools are so incredibly helpful. But that's why there's an entire chapter in the book called somatic practices before you begin. And it gives you like a roadmap of like when to use these. And so maybe I can give the briefest overview of like when you can use them.

• 1:14:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Speaker 00

  Let's just use anger again as an example. If the anger feels unbearable, like it's like, I can't be with this. And now I'm starting to dissociate from my body. That's a moment when you can use a tool to find like resource, right? Can I, so can I do like some, some resourcing, some orienting, noticing again through my senses? But if the anger feels tolerable, like you're noticing the experience, you're like, there's some heat rising here, and as there's heat rising, I'm noticing there's clenching in my jaw. And then you ask the question, is there a natural expression? That comes, or can I express, then that might be one of the moments where you use one of the tools in the book where it feels tolerable. It's like, maybe it's just clenching

• 1:14:44Speaker 00

  my fists. Maybe it's just doing an air scream. Maybe it is just visualizing like whoever my ferocious animal is and seeing how that feels in my body. And now it's like, oh, as I'm doing that, now there's tears coming and like my body is really expressing. So it's in the moments where it feels tolerable enough.

• 1:15:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:02Speaker 00

  And if the body just needs like a gentle push to kind of let stuff out.

• 1:15:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 1:15:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:06Rayna Greenberg?

  It feels like anger and anxiety, there's some real physical tools like get that out of your body. But when you're like the different part of the ladder, which is like depression and burnout.

• 1:15:15Speaker 00

  Really deep trauma.

• 1:15:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. When you're just like, I don't, I'm not taking a walk.

• 1:15:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Screaming about that.

• 1:15:20Speaker 00

  I can't get out of bed. Yeah.

• 1:15:21Rayna Greenberg?

  So where do we start? And obviously, this is a lifetime of work.

• 1:15:24Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:15:25Rayna Greenberg?

  We can't wrap it up in 15 minutes.

• 1:15:26Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:15:26Rayna Greenberg?

  But what do we say to those types of people?

• 1:15:28Speaker 00

  So there's three themes that I talk a lot about when you're down in shutdown at the bottom of the ladder. So like, if you are at the absolute bottom, and this is like a lot of the people that I work with that have depression, can't get out of bed, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, a lot of chronic pain, that is more so when you're down at the very bottom, you actually want to prioritize rest and conservation. The last thing you want to do is actually put more strain and stress on your system to get out of this place because that's just going to increase your adrenaline and cortisol. And it's hard because when you are in those places, like especially if you've been there chronically for a long time, there's like this urgency or almost this desperation of like, I don't want to live like this anymore. And so that's why I think like, learning about the science

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  and realizing that your body knows exactly how to protect you and it's trying to just slow you down so you can catch up can be really helpful. So if you're in the middle of that kind of bottom part of shutdown, this is where like, you don't have a hard time getting out of bed, but like you are feeling exhausted, you're feeling a little depleted, a little numb. Here is where you actually want to prioritize, like, how can I bring more connection back in? So remember, shutdown is a state of disconnection. So here, like we have those high levels of numbing hormones. So it's like, how can I connect with my environment? And one of the things you had mentioned is like, listen. Listening to the birds or like having windows open. Temperature exposure can be really helpful, not like cold plunges.

• 1:16:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:16:51Speaker 00

  Especially for women that will stress your system a little too much. And now you are stressing your system rather than stretching it. Instead, it's like, can I stand in front of the freezer for a moment? Or can I just go outside and like, drink my coffee outside with the cool air this morning? Can I feel the temperature of my coffee mug on my hands? Very light temperature exposure. So again, leaning into the senses, also co-regulation. So like whether it's with pets or other humans, that's connection. So that can help you to connect. And then if you're at the top part of that little shutdown at the bottom, this is where you're about to move into fight or flight. Here, the question is not let's rest, not let's connect. But now it's, is there anything I can do to start to just gently promote

• 1:17:36Speaker 00

  a little bit of that mobilizing again, like just to barely like touch the lid open of that pressure cooker? So that might be like stretching, going for a walk, not like, you know, getting my 15,000 steps in, but like, can I just go around the block for a second and see how that feels? And always checking in, like, how does this feel in my body when I'm done with this? Do I feel more exhausted than let's take a break?

• 1:17:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or energized?

• 1:17:59Speaker 00

  Or more energized, exactly. That means, oh, my system's starting to move back up into fight or flight where I can discharge.

• 1:18:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Great. I like the ladder.

• 1:18:06Speaker 00

  We love the ladder.

• 1:18:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm really picturing that ladder.

• 1:18:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:18:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I think there's like a lot of really serious physical responses to all these things.

• 1:18:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean, what do you see a lot? What do people ask you about a lot?

• 1:18:18Speaker 00

  It's either physical. So again, a lot of like the physical health stuff we're seeing now, like the chronic conditions, the exhaustion, a lot of chronic pain.

• 1:18:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Did you read Three Women? I've been reading Three Women years ago. Lisa Todeo, it's like this book and she basically writes about these three women, like three real women. She followed them for years to share their stories and their personal lives and their sex lives. And the one really stuck out to me, she was in this terrible marriage and he wouldn't kiss her or touch her. And she was in chronic pain and she started having this not really affair, because then she did break up with her husband. Spoiler alert, guys, so.

• 1:18:55Speaker 00

  Well, the book's like 10 years old.

• 1:18:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And she would stop being in pain. And this is like not fiction. I mean, this was just like a true story. This is not like a hot take. I'm sure people have had this experience, but like truly chronic pain, chronic fatigue and due to her just place in life and her personal relationship and like kind of finding that joy again with somebody like took it all away. That stuck out to me so much how she would go see this other guy and be like, I wasn't in pain that day. Like literally like pain in your body. I don't know. It was.

• 1:19:27Rayna Greenberg?

  It's a great book also. Yeah, Ashley and I and Tessa, we all recommend it.

• 1:19:30Speaker 00

  Yeah. You said it's called Three Women?

• 1:19:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Three Women, yeah.

• 1:19:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. When we are stuck in in survival mode, if we're stuck there long enough, it can definitely create physical pain in the body. Because I think what I started saying earlier, but maybe I didn't finish it is like the body when we're stuck in survival mode, it gets stuck in what we call a defensive orienting posture. So again, we hold, we're bracing. It is in this place of not ease in the body, but dis-ease, which is what Gabor Maté often says. It's this place of dis-ease in the body, this chronic holding, defensive holding that then creates disease, physical pain, physical, you know, components. And you see that a lot in posture as well. And even for me, after my assault, you know, the body is always telling us through body memory, a story. You can see it and you might not be able to see it now.

• 1:20:17Speaker 00

  Here, let me sit up more straight. It's better, but this shoulder is slightly lower than the other. And so I was attacked from the right hand side. And one of the things I had mentioned is that I tried to fight back, but I was overpowered. And so what happened is the right side of my body actually went into like a tonic immobility state. But you saw it in the way that I would talk, like, and even still, you see it a little bit. The right side comes down a little bit of my mouth, the right side of my shoulder came down. And that's where essentially my body went into a collapsed posture. I remember going to see like chiropractors and doing all this work, like this body work. I'm like, what the hell is wrong with me? And when I started working with a somatic therapist, she's like, your body is still stuck in a freeze response on this side.

• 1:20:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:20:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I was very dissociated. Like, I remember when I would cry, there wasn't a lot of tears that would come. It was, it was bizarre, but the body, again, like the The way that we hold it, the way that we clench, the way that we let go, the way that there's helplessness or collapse. That's the body showing us or telling us the history of the things that we wanted to do that maybe we couldn't. You know, in the past. And so we hold that a lot and we see that in different pain points. So like when there is pain like between the top back shoulders, like, you know, between the shoulder blades, that's usually like where there were unmet. Attachment needs like in early childhood.

• 1:21:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:21:38Speaker 00

  You know, the jaw tension, of course, I'm sure y'all know that has to do with like suppressed anger, right? So like a lot of TMJ, but also chronic migraines. Especially lower migraines, that can have to do with emotional suppression. You know, the diaphragms hold different kinds of emotions and pain points. The liver, if we have liver issues, that's often related to anger. So like the body is incredibly, you start to look into it's like, ew, that's why I feel that or why I don't feel that there.

• 1:22:04Rayna Greenberg?

  That must be just a great release moment also for people that you work with, like that have gone to talk therapy for so long that are like, I still have chronic pain. I still, I don't sleep. I have stomach aches. My heart's always racing. Like when people realize that I can't just like, think my way out of this.

• 1:22:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. It's like validating.

• 1:22:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Can we just maybe talk a little bit about like romantic relationships? And when you are somebody who carries trauma in the body or, you know, my, my one friend who has suffered from a lot of anxiety, she always says like, well, I'm a lot to deal with for a partner, you know, I, I'm a lot. And I, I think that we worry that we don't know how to express this to a partner. And how they can help us without maybe turning somebody into your own therapist. And they're not qualified to do that for you. So like, how do we talk to a partner about this?

• 1:22:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, you know, what can often be helpful is in first of all, the recognizing that our partner doesn't necessarily have to like make room for our trauma or fix our trauma. It's more so just being met with like empathy. I think that can be really important, but also it's really, I think understated sometimes how much another person's calm or their own regulation supports ours. So there's, you know, this wonderful science that we all have called co-regulation. And so when you're around someone enough, your nervous system starts to mirror theirs.

• 1:23:31Speaker 00

  And we actually learn to co-regulate as humans before we self-regulate. So like when a child is upset, they'll reach for mom and dad because they don't know how to self-regulate first. And so in just recognizing that maybe your partner doesn't have to have the answers for you. They don't have to be your therapist, but maybe just telling them in moments when I'm activated, in moments where I'm feeling anxious, you maybe don't have to fix it for me. Because again, there's nothing wrong with you. Your anxiety is normal.

• 1:23:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:58Speaker 00

  It's more so, can I borrow your calm in those moments? Or like, can I borrow your regulation? That's actually much more powerful than a partner who's trying to make it go away. Because then it's like, it's sending again, this internal message of like, I'm now warring against my anxiety. And the more that we do that, the more that we resist it, the more that it just persists. So I, I think, yeah, that can actually be really helpful. If you have a partner who's capable of that, by the way.

• 1:24:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so sometimes you're just with the wrong partner.

• 1:24:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, yeah, I mean, I had a partner that activated me like into a different version of myself. And my fiance now, it's just like, oh my God, he's just like changed my life. He's helped me with my bad habits. I'm so calm all the time. Like he's just a calming presence. But would you even go so far as like asking, you know, can you just hold me or rub my back? Or like hold my hands? Like, are you like physically, do you find that that helps? I mean, I think so.

• 1:24:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:24:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know?

• 1:24:48Speaker 00

  So for some bodies and some nervous systems, that can absolutely be helpful. Because that's one of what we call our, our first imprints of co-regulation is through touch.

• 1:24:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:58Speaker 00

  But if that wasn't given to us, it can actually feel really activating.

• 1:25:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:25:03Speaker 00

  So for some people, it can feel activating. And that's why like, teaching people how to support us or teaching people how to help us co-regulate can be helpful. Cause that's going to look different for everyone. I do have a question for you though, if it's okay.

• 1:25:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:14Speaker 00

  So you said this last, last person activated you now, person that you're with. Lovely. Are you a different person than you were between the relationships?

• 1:25:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know her back then, but she is a different person. Yeah. I mean, and you weren't like so terrible before, but like you are a calmer presence and that's, that's self-work and that's all, you know, I don't want to attribute everything to him.

• 1:25:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly what I'm talking about though. But lately I had this feeling, and I was curious what you'd say about this, that like, he brought out a bad side of me, but vice versa. You know, he had a lot of trauma I did not know how to deal with. Like I was at fault too. Like we were a bad match. I think we had a great connection until we didn't. And then we were just really toxic together. It was a pretty bad cycle. But I can't believe who I became in that relationship with the yelling and the screaming and like stuff that I didn't experience in any other relationship before, after, with friends, with family. Like again, so I do think he brought out that side of me. That was like activated all the time. But I, in general, I used to be so much more activated and angry and irritated and would like react quickly. And I've worked on it so much. And I was thinking recently, I feel like I've overcorrected a little bit because

• 1:26:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like, no, I think sometimes.

• 1:26:26Rayna Greenberg?

  There we are.

• 1:26:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. Shut up, not with you. I think recently I feel like I've had some situations where.

• 1:26:32Rayna Greenberg?

  You've been too chill.

• 1:26:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  I get mad later. Like I'm in the moment, I'm like, it's fine, it's fine. And I think I'm fine. But I was thinking about this recently. Like there's been a couple of instances recently where I actually was kind of angry at something that happened and I kind of had to revisit it.

• 1:26:47Rayna Greenberg?

  But do you feel like, like sometimes we just catch a stray, like you just get hit by a bullet and you're like, wait, what? And then an hour later, I'm like, I didn't react to that? That's crazy. Like, is it like that? Cause you just, you don't expect it?

• 1:27:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Sometimes you're caught off guard. And also you just, you might be in a group setting, a social setting, and you're not going to pop off at somebody, you know, and you go home and you think about it and you get mad. And I think we all wish we could react perfectly in the moment. But I think about this thing that happened one time with a girlfriend at dinner and she said something that like, I really, it took me a while to, to process and digest how honestly insulting it was. And I, in the moment was kind of like, that's fine. Yeah, we, whatever. And then like walking home, I was furious.

• 1:27:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I haven't, we haven't really talked since. I mean, it just was so offensive. And I'm wondering if just how I used to be would have caught it. Or I'm more of like, keep the peas, don't yell at dinner like you used to in your twenties, you know, and now, or it's just, we're all human and we don't really know what's happening in the moment. And we're like, it takes us a minute.

• 1:27:47Speaker 00

  It sounds to me like you're just less reactive.

• 1:27:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  A hundred percent. That's why Raina laughed so hard. Like, that's, that's the main change in me.

• 1:27:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Over the years.

• 1:27:55Speaker 00

  I just, I find it more like, there's this, this volume dial that like, when we're reactive, that means that like, our younger or past selves are in the driver's seat. And there is this wonderful human, you guys might know him, his name is Dr. Russell Kennedy. Okay. He's the anxiety M D. He's an author, but he's a good colleague. And I actually quote him in the book. He says that a trigger, which when we're reactive, we're just triggered. A triggered is an emotional age regression. So it's an emotional age regression. We are triggered back in time to something that, yeah. And so that's why my question was like, have you changed? And you said you've.

• 1:28:31Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't, I don't want to give him all the credit. I don't want to be like, it's just him. Like, I think she has changed.

• 1:28:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Before my fiance, yeah, it was way different. Yeah.

• 1:28:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I think that she has just taken a.

• 1:28:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, I wasn't, I didn't think we were giving him credit.

• 1:28:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Well, I, well, I'm saying in this relationship, but like, I think that we do, when you feel that you have a partner that makes you feel emotionally safe, that you feel heard, you don't feel attacked, you feel like you can express how you feel and they're going to actually digest that and say something back to you that's respectful.

• 1:28:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:57Rayna Greenberg?

  And calm. I think that you can show up as a different person. And like, I see with my two parents, like, both of them could say the exact same thing to me and I would flip out if my mom said it. My dad could say it. I'd be like, well, that's what's up, whatever. You're right. It's okay. It does be like that. But, you know, it depends on who you're speaking to and the history you have with them. And I think that like, you already had become a person who was calmer.

• 1:29:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Yeah. But can we talk about this whole getting mad later? Cause it's tough to go back to people.

• 1:29:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. I will. I want to explain that situation that you're talking about a little bit better. I think that you were in a situ, a social situation with people that you had a long history with, that you felt safe around, that you are used to sharing a lot with. And you might just not have realized in the moment how insulting it is. Cause you're like, well, we share everything and we talk about stuff. And I feel safe. Emotionally right now.

• 1:29:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:47Rayna Greenberg?

  And then you're like, what the fuck?

• 1:29:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  But even over the course of dinner, I started to be like, I am, don't feel safe anymore. Like sharing kind of these things and I just like stomped all the way home. And it's just kind of one of those things of like, it is hard to go back and be like, I know I acted cool in the moment, but I'm mad now, you know, because it's almost the inverse. Typically you react in the moment and then you calm down where it's a weird thing to be chill in the moment and to be like, just buzz buzz, I'm pissed at you, you know?

• 1:30:13Speaker 00

  So I, but I actually think that that is much healthier, much, much healthier. Yeah. What, but I'm going to fall back for one second and I'm going to come back to this. What, so what I wanted to say was you don't choose the person in your life. You don't choose the people in your life, your nervous system does. And so the state of your nervous system is going to mirror the state of your relationships. So it makes sense that you said, I was a little bit more angry and just like frustrated and like reactive back then. So like your nervous system is going to attract the people that bring that out in you. And now it sounds like you said you've done some self-improvement or you're like at this more complacent, you're less reactive, you're now attracting those people into your life who, who have that.

• 1:30:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  So accurate.

• 1:30:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  And that's why we say you, someone that you're supposed to be with should make you feel calm.

• 1:30:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:30:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Feel secure, not anxious and butterflies, mistaken for.

• 1:30:58Speaker 00

  The slow burn is the best. It really is.

• 1:31:01Rayna Greenberg?

  So I, I wonder if you can share as much a little about your husband.

• 1:31:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was going to ask you.

• 1:31:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I'll share everything about him. I love talking about him. I dated somebody for a while who grew up with some very extreme physical abuse. Who was physically beaten up by their parent in the home a lot growing up. And it was hard to have like arguments with him because we just were not hearing each other. And I come from a, I was physically safe growing up, very much so. It was really hard to communicate in a fight because he just, Ashley said, she, he just, he starts from a different place of emotional wellbeing than you do. And so we hurt each other very differently. And I was maybe the wrong partner for him and also had we stayed together, I would have absolutely been very happy to go to therapy and talk about how to communicate better, of course. But like, if somebody does come from, you know, his whole life was trauma, you had a traumatic experience.

• 1:31:50Rayna Greenberg?

  And then they want, they, they're in a relationship with somebody else, like, how does that partner kind of like meet you? Talk to you.

• 1:31:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Hear you in a fight because you are coming from a different place.

• 1:32:00Speaker 00

  For sure. So I think, and actually, I think what you're talking about, the experience with your friend. And what you're talking about, yeah, are actually very similar here. And it's that what we can find as we're starting to like heal and regulate is that the pause, like the pause of I just, I'm having some space rather than being like reactive in the moment. When we're reactive, we again know that those are, that's like unhealed stuff that's showing up and driving the car right now, driving the bus. Having a pause and taking time to reflect on your own and to regulate on your own. And to listen to like, what did upset me about that? Like what boundaries were crossed? What is my body showing me? What is my brain telling me right now?

• 1:32:41Speaker 00

  And then going back and being like, hey, you know, I've actually had some time to like marinate on this a little bit. I felt something during that experience and I want to communicate that to you now, like now that I've had some time to really process it. And I think that in relationships, you know, intimate relationships, when you have a partner that comes from a place of a lot of trauma background and maybe like your way of communicating is like, and for David and I, it was very much so like. I'm very much so was an anxious attachment, codependent, clingy, like in relationships. He was the opposite. He was avoidant. And by the way, that's so natural that you attract often the opposite when you're trauma bonding, right? Because his running away triggered my impulse to chase after him.

• 1:33:25Speaker 00

  And then my impulse to chase after him prompted his running away. And so it was like this dance of us kind of meeting in the middle and just being committed to like, we love each other enough to make it work. And we took it slow and it was not perfect. It took us like four or five years to even get engaged, you know, like it just took us time. But I think that having the consistent. Commitment of when we disconnect, which is what we call a rupture in a relationship. When there's a rupture, as long as we're committed to the repair, we will be able to like meet in the middle. And now I'm at a place now where I feel like I have this really securely attached

• 1:34:05Speaker 00

  style in my life because of him. And what we found worked is that like when we had moments where there was a disagreement or a rupture, kind of similar to like your friend, we would go and self-regulate. And it's like, I need a moment to myself to like regulate on my own. And then he needed to do the same. And then we would come back together when we're in a place of more like, okay, now we've self-regulated. Now we're at the top of the ladder and bringing the ladder back in. And we're in a place where like connection is important. So it's like, we were able to communicate and listen to each other. But that's the, the whole art of pausing of like, we don't need to figure this out right now. I know a lot of people say like, don't go to bed angry. It's more so like, don't go to bed with a forced apology.

• 1:34:47Speaker 00

  I feel like that is actually really important. Like a forced apology is so inauthentic and that's not true authentic connection and repair.

• 1:34:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. If there's one thing I've improved on and changed completely, it's just the not reacting in the moment. Like, I don't know why I used to be so like, I gotta tell him right now that I'm mad, you know, like, and I'm like a different person, like my fiance did something that, but it wasn't even a, I just, it was something I wanted to address. And I waited the next day, like it just, I feel calm. I feel like we'll talk about it and we'll figure it out. And it doesn't have to be right now. I don't know. I just.

• 1:35:21Speaker 00

  But I'm also sure it's been the small moments that have built up over time that have shown your nervous system that even when there's conflict, I know that we're going to be okay tomorrow.

• 1:35:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  And some of that's been with Rena, like over time with Rena, like I feel like being a partner with Rena all these years has helped me work on all of those things, like in this relationship.

• 1:35:37Speaker 00

  Let's credit the real relationship.

• 1:35:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. It wasn't him. I was perfect when I got with him. It was you that had to help me.

• 1:35:44Speaker 00

  She's like, I have set the standard. I have set the standard.

• 1:35:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  He hasn't done anything. I was good when I entered into that because of all the years of work with you.

• 1:35:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Lucky me. No, but there was a situation I was saying to you with him, the situation's irrelevant. It wasn't like a big deal, but I said to you, like, you're able to respond to this in like a calm, a kind, calm way because you know that you're up against a person that loves you, that is kind and calm.

• 1:36:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  And committed.

• 1:36:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Attacking you.

• 1:36:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  And that what you said, the commitment and the consistency, you know, we talked with a previous guest about anxious and avoidant pairing. And like, if it's going to work, that just has to be some agreed upon consistency and a commitment. And that's the only way.

• 1:36:26Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:36:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  And is exactly what you said, but does he come from any trauma as well?

• 1:36:31Speaker 00

  He does. Yeah.

• 1:36:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:36:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I actually, I share a little bit about that in the book. I shared with his permission, of course. But yeah, he comes from a background, you know, his parents were divorced and his dad was just very emotionally not present in his life, very much so also not physically present in his life. He was an only child and there was some infidelity that, you know, kind of, kind of happened in the marriage. And so, yeah, there's some, some feelings of abandonment for him, but his turned into like, just push people away.

• 1:37:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 1:37:00Speaker 00

  Because people are going to let you down. And my fear of abandonment is people are going to leave, so we need to cling on.

• 1:37:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Uh huh.

• 1:37:05Speaker 00

  Right. But I think that what you're talking about, that consistency, we always say, because there's what we know in our mind, right? Which is like, this person isn't out to get me, this person isn't going to harm me like I've been harmed in the past. Like, I know, but why am I so damn reactive? It's the experience over time that then creates evidence for the nervous system that like, this person is safe to have an argument with. And it's okay to have conflict. It's okay to have a disagreement. We're going to be okay. It's the experience that creates evidence, which then creates expectation. So it's like, you now have this new standard in relationships where there's this expectation of when there's conflict, I expect that I'm going to be able to find repair or that I'm going to be able to talk it through. And so what's wonderful is that like, no matter

• 1:37:49Speaker 00

  how shitty the background you come from, like with your, your parents and attachment wounding or caregivers or trauma, you can have new attachment styles formed in any adult relationship. And it doesn't have to be an intimate partner. I'm sure that the two of you actually. The dynamic that you have has created a lot of that expectation too. Right in relationships, which is probably what helped you to attract that.

• 1:38:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I think people worry that like all hope is lost. Like I'm, I'm an anxious attachment and I have been anxious, avoidant and secure. The whole rainbow and different relationships.

• 1:38:20Speaker 00

  Yes. And that, well, and I think that's important to note too. Thank you so much for mentioning that because I think people can, people can be like really like self identify with like,

• 1:38:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:28Speaker 00

  You know, this is who I am or kind of as you said, your, your friend is like, I'm just too much in relationships. And what's important to know is like, our attachment style is so, so fluid. It changes. And I always say it's like these percentages. So like in my really like, I'm chasing, I'm clinging. I was 80% anxious, probably like 5% avoidant, 5% disorganized, 10% secure. It's like, you're actually a little bit of all the above. It's just that it changes and it's fluid. And so I think that's important to note that like these styles are here for a reason. They help us in relationships to manage stress and conflict. But also, I think this is also where parts work can come in. So like you were asking, how can I help a partner who's been through whatever?

• 1:39:11Speaker 00

  Parts work is where you say, a part of me feels upset with you right now. Or like, a part of me wants nothing to do with you right now. I don't even want to see your face. But another part of me loves you and I know we'll talk about it tomorrow. So that's where like, you can really express like, I'm really fucking pissed, but I also love you and let's work it out tomorrow.

• 1:39:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Which is important for anyone that has even the slightest bit of abandonment issue. Where you, you think, and everybody has a different type of upbringing, trauma. You think the fight is, it's over. They're walking out, the relationship is over. Like, I just love that you gave the encouragement and the optimism that you're not just damaged goods forever. If you have these issues, this trauma, this abandonment, like you can repair it with, yes, a romantic partner or a friend or multiple, like different relationships throughout your life.

• 1:39:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Your children.

• 1:39:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I really encourage people, I'm sure you should too, to notice how your partner makes you feel in your body. And you know, I was just.

• 1:40:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I was thinking literally the same thing. We're co-regulating. Co-regulating.

• 1:40:11Speaker 00

  That was wild.

• 1:40:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I've seen friends in relationships like this, or you know, I've been in relationships where I'm like, being in this relationship makes me feel really bad in my body. I had this relationship with somebody who just cheated on me all the time and I never knew who it was. And when we broke up, it was the greatest relief I have ever felt. The feeling of, oh my God, this isn't my problem anymore in my body superseded any sadness I felt about losing somebody who I loved, who was my good friend, who I cared about. Like, I just was like, oh, my body feel, I can sleep.

• 1:40:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:43Rayna Greenberg?

  The anxiety. Like, if your partner doesn't make you feel like that, if you're like, I can't get through the day, like, check into that.

• 1:40:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, you're like, yeah, people lose their hair. I mean, that's why you lose your hair when you get stressed or you have ulcers or whatever. Like, there's really no denying that all that stuff lives in our body. I mean, we have just watched women just fall apart in these relationships that are bad. I mean, they ruin your life, they ruin your health.

• 1:41:05Speaker 00

  It's a delicate balance because there's part of you that's like, if we have not faced yet some of those older wounds, right? We haven't done the self-healing, self-improvement. What we often find is that like, we're chasing these old patterns and these old experiences, and we're just mirroring them in our present day, right? So like, the abuse that we experienced maybe in childhood or something like that, that's now showing up here in our present day. And we're trying to control or create a different outcome. And so, that can be number one. But at the same time, this is what's really interesting, when you do find a partner that you can let your protective armor off, we always say your nervous system is like your armor. You'll often find that you do attract a partner who is going to trigger in you the things that need

• 1:41:49Speaker 00

  to be healed. Because like, the more that you feel safe and you let that armor down, it's more that like, your body is like, hey, those things that you went through in the past that we've really kind of stuffed away and hidden in plain sight, we can now heal that here. And so, there will be times where like, these old things will start to emerge and you're like, oh, is this a sign that like, I'm chasing?

• 1:42:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Regressing?

• 1:42:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, regressing. And so, I think that that is again, where it comes to the question of like, as this comes up. Do I feel safe enough to like move through this with the partner? Do I feel like they're committed? Cause David and I have had a lot of stuff come up in our relationship and it's been incredibly therapeutic for us to like work through it together. It's never felt like, oh shit, this means it's the end. Yeah. You know, it's kind of like, oh yeah, this is here. And maybe this is just a sign that like, we're taking off that armor, you know? Mm hmm. Yeah. I'm glad that you found that. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. He's great. He's just driving around with the kids. Okay. Right now. We'll let you go. No, no, they're good. You called me, I was like, I think there's a baby with her. That's not really going to work for the recording. Yeah, yeah. So it's, yeah, it's funny. He dropped me off, but then my car was still connected to the Bluetooth.

• 1:42:52Speaker 00

  So when I called you, I'm like, hello, why did I not hear anything? You rolled down the window and he's like, you're on the Bluetooth. Yeah, I hung up right away. I think he hung up from the car. Well, you have been wonderful to have back and congratulations on the book. And you've really dedicated your life to helping people and it's a beautiful thing. And I'm sure people will want more of you and your website and your book and everything. The DMs are open, you guys. The DMs are open. Yes, please reach out. No, and I appreciate that. And I think the one takeaway that I have for people is that like, this book doesn't heal you, you heal you. And I always love saying that just because the book is kind of like, it's a, a, a template or like a guidebook back to yourself.

• 1:43:31Speaker 00

  Again, in recognizing that like, oh, that pain that I have, oh, that anxiety hat that I have, oh, those things that I have are actually my body's natural way of protecting me and like managing and moving through overwhelming things in my life. Great. Thank you. And then tell everybody your Instagram, where people can find you. Yeah, they can find me on social media at Heal With Britt, two Ts, not like Britney Spears. And. She could use some healing. She could use some healing, poor thing. Yeah, well, Brittany. I do love Britney Spears. I remember telling my dad she was iconic. I still do. Love her. She does need some healing. She does need some healing, man. All right, so back to you. Yeah, so. Yes, yes. Heal With Britt with two Ts. You can find me on Instagram or Tik Tok.

• 1:44:13Speaker 00

  And then if you want to learn more about the book or working with me or joining the Body First Healing Program, just go to BodyFirstHealing.com. Okay. BodyFirstHealing.com, okay. Amazing. Easy breezy. We are girlsgottaeat.com, Girls Got To Eat Podcast on Instagram and Tik Tok. I'm Ash Hess, Reina is Reina.Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube, share this episode with a friend and we will see you Thursday. Have a good week, guys. Bye.