Why Does My Mind Keep Thinking That?

I have had a meditation practice for about 15 years now. I started hoping it would calm me down, and it has. But it’s also made me more aware of the strangeness of my mind. Certain thoughts emerge seemingly out of nowhere. Many of them return again and again. Why? And what relationship should you have to your thoughts when you realize you’re not the one controlling them? Mark Epstein is a psychiatrist and also a Buddhist. He’s spent decades observing the mind through those two distinct traditions, and has written many books that helped build a bridge between them, from his 1995 landmark book, “Thoughts Without a Thinker,” to his latest work, “The Zen of Therapy.” So I thought it would be interesting to talk to him about what he’s learned about the mind after all these decades of observing it. Mentioned: Open to Desire by Mark Epstein Book Recommendations: John & Paul by Ian Leslie Essays After Eighty by Donald Hall Kairos by Jenny Erpenbeck Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]. You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Ezra Klein?

  Before we begin today, we're going to be recording another Ask Me Anything episode soon, this one for subscribers. So you can write me your questions about anything, about everything, at [email protected]. And please put AMA as the subject line.

• 0:46Ezra Klein?

  I've had a meditation practice for about 15 years now. And I got into it thinking it would calm me down. I've got a little bit of a highly tuned nervous system. And it has done that. But over time, and in the periods when the practice is a bit deeper, when I have a little bit more grit under its tires, the thing it really seems to do is alienate me from my own mind. I watch what is playing on the projector of my psyche. And I think, why? Why did I, or something in here, some part of me, load up that particular film? Why are we thinking about that? Or even more often, why are we thinking about that again?

• 1:31Ezra Klein?

  And there are people who have been thinking about and exploring this strange way the mind actually works for a very long time. One of them whose work I've long been interested in is Mark Epstein. He is a Buddhist and a psychotherapist. His first big book years ago is called Thoughts Without a Thinker. His most recent book is called The Zen of Therapy. Now, a lot of people go to therapy. The fact that it has all these dimensions of mindfulness and awareness in it, it seems normal and natural. But some people built that bridge, and Epstein was one of them. And I've just had this thought for a while. It'd just be interesting to ask him, after his decades of therapeutic practice, his decades of intense meditation,

• 2:15Ezra Klein?

  what he's learned about the mind? How does he think about how the mind works? What is the relationship you have to your own thoughts when you realize you're not the one controlling them? As always, my email, azraelkline show at nytimes.com.

• 2:41Ezra Klein?

  Mark Epstein, welcome to the show.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  What a pleasure.

• 2:45Ezra Klein?

  So tell me, after all these years, what do you think a thought is?

• 2:50Speaker 01

  My meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein, I was on a retreat with him last year. He said, "A thought is just a little something more than nothing."

• 3:01Speaker 01

  So I really liked that. I thought, oh, that's coming out of 60 years of his meditation experience. So I've been repeating that to myself, a little more than nothing.

• 3:11Ezra Klein?

  Your first book had one of my favorite titles for a book, Thoughts Without a Thinker.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:17Ezra Klein?

  And I think that's the part of this I want to get at, that strange sense that they just happen.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Happen, yeah.

• 3:25Ezra Klein?

  Why do they happen?

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Well, the person is in a predicament in that they find themselves in a body with a mind, having to make sense out of being in the world. And conscious, internal, subjective thought seems to come along with that realization. So thoughts are in some way what we would call the ego trying to figure out, oh, my God, what do I do in this predicament? The ego mediates between inner and outer and between lower and higher. That's the function of the ego.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  And thoughts in this way of thinking would be like an extension of the ego, you know, a tool of the ego.

• 4:15Ezra Klein?

  See, I would prefer it, I think, if they felt like a tool well-used. The thing that I find very alienating when my meditation practice is a bit deeper and I'm a bit more aware is the recognition that I'm constantly thinking about things.

• 4:32Ezra Klein?

  That if I really were trying to figure out how to live in this world in a productive way, I would not be thinking about all the time. The tendency of thoughts to get stuck, for them to attract to negative imaginings of the future. It's very strange when you begin being attentive to, not just that they're arising, but that they have certain patterns that you would not choose. And you're not sure then who chose them or how they're being chosen. And it doesn't feel like you have a lot of control over that process.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  So it can be a mistake, from the Buddhist point of view, to see thoughts always as the problem. A lot of people who get interested in meditation start to value the empty mind, the mind with no thought, as if that's some kind of great achievement. One of the first Buddhist texts that made a big impression on me when I was still in college, talked about the untrained mind as being the problem, that a disciplined mind, they said, was the road to nirvana, the road to enlightenment. You know, the point of spiritual practice, of meditation, of psychotherapy, isn't to

• 5:45Speaker 01

  make you more stupid, it's to make you more aware or more conscious, so that you actually have choices about the way you live your life.

• 5:53Ezra Klein?

  You started that answer by saying that it can be a common, I don't think you used the word mistake, but I understood you as saying mistake.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:01Ezra Klein?

  To fetishize the empty mind. Why?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  So, there's something very appealing about stumbling into an experience of, oh, the mind is something more than just the thinker of thoughts. It's actually very peaceful to have that experience of the empty mind. And we're all looking for something, something different than what our everyday experience is. So it's easy to get attached to what feels like a brief transcendental experience and/or a drug experience, and then to go chasing that. So it's not about getting rid of thoughts or devaluing thoughts, it's about cultivating thoughts that are useful.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  One of my most profound experiences on a silent meditation retreat was about five days into the retreat, my mind was analyzing what the food was going to be for breakfast. And it was like, okay, the food is fine. It's like yogurt and oatmeal and peanuts and raisins, but where's the bread? What we really need is a piece of toast. And that was like what was preoccupying me. And on about the fifth day, bread appeared and I put it in the toaster and made a plate with butter and jam and sat down and took my first mindful bite, you know, very focused, no thinking, just the taste of the toast, you know, so delicious.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  And then my mind wandered. And the next thing I knew, I looked down and I was like, who ate my toast? It had disappeared. And where my mind went immediately was who did this to me, you know, searching for someone to blame. And I think that's the kind of insight, actually, that precipitates out of a deep meditation experience where we see that so much of our mental activity is trying to protect ourselves or trying to find someone to blame for whatever it is that happens that we're uncomfortable with. So much of thinking is from a self-centered place like that. And with enough meditation practice,

• 8:17Speaker 01

  we start to wade through a lot of that crap.

• 8:20Ezra Klein?

  So in a way, this podcast genesis is I was in a used bookstore in the East Village, and I came across that Original Thoughts without a Thinker book. And that came out, what, in the 80s?

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Ninety-five.

• 8:32Ezra Klein?

  Ninety-five, okay. I'd always meant to read it. And then when I did read it, it's very Freudian.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:39Ezra Klein?

  And so I want to start bringing in the other side of your work here.

• 8:43Ezra Klein?

  I think now a lot of us look at Freudian work, Freudian theory, and think, man, it is strange people got excited about that. But Freud is a big influence on that first book. What do you still find valuable about the way Freud understood or what he did for psychotherapy or understands of the subconscious? And what do you look at with a bit of, well, we all got carried away?

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Well, I don't think we all got carried away, but a whole generation got carried away. Freud's been a big influence on all of my books. The whole way we think about the mind, about the self, the unconscious, the instincts, that's all Freud. The 20th century, 21st century conception of the mind, whether we agree with everything that Freud said about sexuality and whatnot, but it's all Freud. Freud, in a way, was a meditator. He was snorting cocaine and using that heightened awareness to observe his own dreams, his own mind.

• 9:54Ezra Klein?

  Wait, I'm sorry, really?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  You know all this.

• 9:56Ezra Klein?

  I do not know all this. My Freudian knowledge is paper thin.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Oh, Freud, there's a rich...

• 10:03Ezra Klein?

  So what you're proposing here is that the correct way to understand the mind is to take a bunch of cocaine and then observe?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  I'm not proposing that at all, but many, many people are doing that, and it leads them into meditation. But no, Freud's whole thing at the beginning of his career, after he was studying fish, he got into cocaine.

• 10:22Ezra Klein?

  It's a classic progression.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  It can come out of many different directions. And his book, which was written around 1900 or published around 1900, The Interpretation of Dreams, he engaged in one of the first self-analyses and began to really chart his dreams, examine his dreams, and interpret his dreams. And his whole method of free association and evenly suspended attention, the purpose of which was to get the rational mind, the thinking mind, the judging mind out of the way. So that you could go deeper into your own personal experience. That led him into the discovery of what he called the unconscious.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  And the unconscious is where all our secrets are stored and where the aspects of ourselves that comes up in our dreams, you know, and in our fantasies, where, where, like, what is that? And where's that coming from? Freud called it the unconscious. And then he proceeded to develop a method of probing the unconscious through psychotherapy, which was a revolution. He promised too much, the same way that psychedelics are currently promising too much, or Prozac promised too much, or meditation promises too much, because people want something that will cure everything.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  And psychoanalysis couldn't do that.

• 11:56Ezra Klein?

  When I read things that are heavily influenced by Freud now, I'll read the stories he's telling, the, the sort of ideas he is spinning out. You talk in your book about him taking a walk with some friends and just ending up as they seem a little bit dissatisfied, spinning out a very profound and intense theory about, you know, their relationship to the passage of time.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  It's a beautiful little paper called On Transience. And Freud ends it by saying, is a flower that blooms for only a single night any less beautiful because of the short duration of its life?

• 12:34Ezra Klein?

  But when I read that story in your book, and I've read other Freudian stories, what I think immediately is, well, how does he know? I feel like now there is a tendency to prize forms of knowing that can be validated in some external way.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Oh, totally.

• 12:51Ezra Klein?

  Whereas Freud was a, it always seems to be a very insightful storyteller.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:57Ezra Klein?

  But you sort of either bought into the story or you didn't.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same with meditation.

• 13:03Ezra Klein?

  Tell me about that.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Well, there's a big effort now to document the scientific benefits, you know, to prove in the lab that when you're meditating, something is really happening in the brain. And I started out in my career working for a cardiologist at Harvard Medical School, Herbert Benson, who did the physiological measurements of transcendental meditators, showing that their blood pressure could be lowered and their heartbeat slowed and their carbon dioxide output diminished, you know. So I understand the value of, oh, this is a real thing. Science tells us it's a real thing. But my experience of going on my first couple of silent meditation retreats,

• 13:46Speaker 01

  which, you know, a week or 10 days of not talking, not making eye contact and just looking at my own internal experience, that's what showed me that meditation was a real thing. Experientially, oh, my mind is capable of more than just my usual thoughts. You know, there's a whole vast, both interior and external experience that I have never allowed myself that is opening up. Science, if it was going to try to document that, might be able to measure my heartbeat, but it couldn't get close to the poetics of the experience, you know.

• 14:26Ezra Klein?

  If science can't find it, how would you describe what it is that science can't find?

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Love.

• 14:32Ezra Klein?

  In meditation?

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, in meditation. Like, the great revelation that can come out of meditation is, oh, you start to experience yourself as a loving being.

• 14:44Ezra Klein?

  Why do you think that is?

• 14:45Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think because we are fundamentally loving beings. And, you know, that's our true nature.

• 14:52Ezra Klein?

  I've always been a little bit, I don't want to say turned off, but the idea that, like, the good nature is underneath.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:58Ezra Klein?

  You know, we're just trying to, like, pull off all the crust and the crud and the stories and the... Is that where we're getting at? And I don't know, I have little kids. Sometimes they're really loving and great. Sometimes they're, you know,

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:10Ezra Klein?

  slightly tyrannical.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Totally tyrannical. By the time they're little kids, it's already happening.

• 15:15Ezra Klein?

  So it's just when they're a baby that our good nature is there? What is that thing underneath? And do you actually believe it is underneath? And do you believe it is a thing we are shaping? And then it feels like it was always there in sufficiently advanced meditation or moments of awakening?

• 15:29Speaker 01

  I had a conversation once with Ram Dass, who, you know, Richard Albert, blah, blah, who I was very, very, I'll let you explain.

• 15:38Ezra Klein?

  Ram Dass, a great, eventually Hindu influenced mystic, also crucial figure in the psychedelic revolution alongside Timothy Leary. One of the most fascinating lives of the 20th century.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Started out as a psychology professor.

• 15:53Ezra Klein?

  Yes, I'm sorry.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  At Harvard. I met him when he was already in his Indian Ram Dass incarnation, but I was just at Harvard. I was in my early twenties. And then I went to medical school, became a psychiatrist, didn't see him for 20 years. He had a bad stroke, could hardly talk. I went to visit him. And he always sort of joked with me. He was like, oh, are you a Buddhist psychiatrist now? I was like, I guess so, he said. And he had trouble making the words because he'd had a stroke. Do you see them, meaning my patients, do you see them as already free? And it like took me up short, you know? Do I see them as already free?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  But I had to say yes, that that was like, that's what I had gotten from the meditation side of things. But the mind is capable of something so beyond what we normally think of our minds as doing, that the shorthand for that would be love.

• 16:57Ezra Klein?

  Are you talking about something we would understand as a mind? Or something more like what we would understand as like the shards of a soul?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  From the Buddhist side, they use the same word to talk about mind and heart. So, put that together and I think you get a soul. So, if there's any purpose behind our incarnations as humans, the purpose would be to come in contact with that greater potential of the mind. And that's what all this work is about, is uncovering, to let it shine through.

• 17:33Ezra Klein?

  Well, this gets to a symmetry that you point out between how Freud advised the therapist to show up.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:40Ezra Klein?

  And how Buddhist meditation advises a meditator show up, which is with this unusual spirit of non-judgment.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Suspend judgment and give impartial attention to everything there is to observe. That's Freud, sounding like a Buddhist teacher.

• 17:59Ezra Klein?

  So, tell me what is valuable about that orientation?

• 18:03Speaker 01

  What that mental, emotional, even spiritual state permits is an openness to the other. So, when I'm being the therapist, I'm just really curious and really trying to make room for whatever it is that you, if you were my patient, whatever it is that's happening truthfully for you in this moment. That's what I'm encouraging. Hopefully, there's no hint of judgment. And I think that's something that Freud was very clear about. Suspend judgment and give impartial attention to everything there is to observe.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  That makes space for someone and it's very unusual that we engage in that kind of way with each other.

• 18:55Ezra Klein?

  And how about from the meditative standpoint? Why is that? I think most people who initially get into meditation, get into it from a highly judgmental place.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:07Ezra Klein?

  Of their own emotional experience, very true for me. I would like to not feel the way I am feeling all the time. Anxious, spun up, pulled along by the current of my own thoughts. And I have been told this can help. And sometimes it does, sometimes it does the opposite and makes you more aware of actually how stirred up you are. And then you start telling this to more experienced meditators and they say, oh, right, yeah, this was missold to you. This is about being aware of what's going on, not about attaining this much more equanimist state that you were showing up instrumentally to grab hold of.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not just about being aware of what's going on. It's about changing the way you relate to what's going on. Coming into meditation, all I could see was my own judgmental mind. I'm judging myself. I'm judging the other people there. We're not even talking. I'm not even looking at them. I've got an opinion about everything. That's what's occupying my mind. Gradually with meditation, just be mindful, see what's there, see what you're feeling, see what your mind is doing. Gradually, you see those go-to conditioned responses to one's world. That doesn't have to be the last word in

• 20:32Speaker 01

  how you relate. And it doesn't feel good. That's the main thing. So you start to feel, oh, this doesn't feel good. And there's an alternative. I don't have to be judging.

• 20:44Ezra Klein?

  Well, you say that. That's not my experience of it. I often will hear meditation teachers and, for that matter, therapists say something like this. The implication is it how I feel about things, what emerges into my mind is under my control. I understand that I can be less reactive to what I'm thinking or what I'm feeling. But the feelings are still there. They've just then feel like they're bouncing around inside of me.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, the feelings are still there. I think that's the common experience. The wish is that they're just going to go away and you're going to become a different person. But the much more common experience is that you just are who you are. The reactions are still there. But as a one-time teacher of mine used to say, at one point, they were these big monsters and the monsters became like little schmooze in the mind, you know? So you're trying to cultivate equanimity. The Buddha talked about gain and loss, pleasure and pain, sorrow and so on, as like the great winds that blow through us.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  So it's trying to get your mind into a place like on the top of a great mountain or under a big tree, you know, where all the ebbs and flows, all the fluctuations are are part of what the mind can tolerate.

• 22:09Ezra Klein?

  And how much is this emerging from the, I don't know how to describe, the lack of identification with what we normally think of as the self? You have a line, "The more you examine your experience, the more mysterious and elusive the self becomes. This is an enriching, if also a sobering and humbling realization." And it's a bit where I started, but this feeling that, oh, I might be feeling this way, but I'm not choosing it. And I don't necessarily have to follow it. It's both valuable and it's very strange. It's very self-alienating. You know, 10, 15 years into having a meditation practice,

• 22:52Ezra Klein?

  I'm much less certain of why the things happening in my head are happening than I was before, when I didn't question them. And I just assumed that what was going on in my head was the outcome of some cohesive process and self and set of intentions that were, you know, I was thinking about this and that's what I should be thinking about.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's a really nice thing to be less certain. That little bit of freedom that I was talking about before, that's associated with being a little less certain about everything, certainly about the self. In Buddhist psychology, one of the main principles is

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Selflessness. So it's taken me a long time to get my head around self, selflessness, ego, egolessness. But the thing that that helped me the most is that the principle that in order to understand selflessness, you first have to actually find within yourself, you have to locate within yourself, the self that doesn't exist. You know?

• 24:02Ezra Klein?

  And that helped you understand it?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  That helped me understand it. Yeah, yeah. Because like, like when, when I look down at my toast that wasn't there, who, who ate my toast? You know, that was really me upset, like no toast, like what happened? Who can I blame? They say in Buddhist psychology, the best time to find the self that doesn't exist is when someone who you love hurts your feelings, accuses you of doing something that you really didn't do. And this thing in, in you seizes up, you know, like, how could you think that about me? I didn't do that. That me or that I, that's why, like, we're all conceited like that. So when those

• 24:46Speaker 01

  situations happen, and you feel really gripped by that sense of injustice, from the Buddhist point of view, you can turn your mind and look at that feeling. And there's the self. There's the self that doesn't exist, you know? That feeling of me is just a little bit more than nothing. As Joseph said at, when in the beginning of our conversation, it's just a feeling that under the power of self-observation, it starts to break up.

• 25:19Ezra Klein?

  I'm married.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:20Ezra Klein?

  I've had experiences of feeling upset with my partner, I've had it with my friends, I've had it with myself, right? I'm constantly pissed off at myself. And if there's ever a time when the self feels strong and stable,

• 25:34Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 25:35Ezra Klein?

  it is when it is under threat.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know how stable it feels. And when the self feels strong and indignant and, and

• 25:44Ezra Klein?

  So what about the looking inward?

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:48Ezra Klein?

  Opens your patience. Sometimes when I, I'm in that mode.

• 25:54Ezra Klein?

  To listen, the thing that I just hear is like the endless recitation of why I'm right in my own head.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 26:00Ezra Klein?

  And I'm not sure it's helpful.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Not helpful.

• 26:02Ezra Klein?

  But it's, but it's definitely something I can locate.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. That's my point. That's my point. So that the self is actually intrinsically relational. So, so the self wants to be in relationship to the other. But that feeling of she hurt me, that feeling of righteous indignation pushes you, pushes yourself into an isolated, defensive, rigid, self-important, judgmental place. That's not a happy place. As right as you feel about it, it's not a happy place. So what's my role as a therapist? One, to support the feeling, because I'm sure you're right.

• 26:46Ezra Klein?

  Always.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  And, but secondly, your marriage is important and your relationship is important and you care about whoever it is.

• 26:56Ezra Klein?

  Okay, but what part of this, at what point are you seeing that the self does not exist?

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:01Ezra Klein?

  I understand the part of the sentence where you located the self.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:05Ezra Klein?

  I don't understand yet the part of your sentence where you located the self that does not exist.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Everything appears more real than it really is. We see the world as this is all totally real, but it's not. It's much more evanescent, it's much more impermanent, it's much less stable than we want it to be. You know, like the, the final words of the Diamond Sutra. This is how you should experience this fleeting world. A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom and a dream. So what I'm after, when you come in and you're putting yourself in that place, that fixed,

• 27:52Speaker 01

  certain, hurt, angry place, I'm trying to loosen that up for you. I'm trying to loosen up that identification with being you.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  The angry you, the hurt you, the judgmental you, the you you know. Because they're saying, this is Freud's contribution. There's so much about you that you don't know.

• 28:42Ezra Klein?

  You had a line I thought was interesting where you said that traditional therapy unpacks in order to make sense. Meditation asks us to stop making sense so that we can find where happiness truly abides. Therapy examines the accumulated self, the only one that is shaped by all the defenses we've used to get through life. Meditation asks us to divest ourselves of those very defenses. Tell me a bit about that tension, right? You're sort of setting them up as almost not quite opposite ways of knowing. But one mode is very cerebral and takes the stories very seriously. And the other mode is, in some ways, trying to get you to loosen your grip.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:25Ezra Klein?

  Be very, very skeptical of the stories your mind tells.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was trying to channel David Byrne there with the stop making sense. Taking the story, one's own personal story, seriously is super important. And there's a real tendency among people who don't have a psychotherapeutic interest, but are coming strictly from the meditative point of view, to sort of diminish the importance of everything we've learned from 100 years of psychotherapy. Early childhood experience, emotional pain.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Even traumatic events, those are all just phenomena to be observed, you know, don't make too big a deal. I think that's a mistake. I think we need to take ourselves seriously and understand ourselves as best we can, and then begin to loosen the attachments that we all have to the various events that have formed us. So from the spiritual side, you know, freedom from identity is like the goal. And we can see what happens in the world when people are unable to free themselves from their identity, you know,

• 30:46Speaker 01

  it's a, it's a big cause of conflict and pain. But those identities are super important to be able to make sense of too. So that's one of the ways that I see these two worlds really helping each other.

• 31:02Ezra Klein?

  One experience I've had in therapy, and I've had very, very positive experiences in therapy, and then not very negative ones, but when I tend to exit therapy, it's often because I notice that I, I'm, it now feels like it is reinforcing stories I don't want to tell. It is a space where I come in and feels like there's a pull to say whatever I'm upset about that week. And I leave feeling more upset, but somehow more entrenched in my upsetness. That there's one part of me, maybe the meditative part of me, I'll identify it as, that wants nothing more than to loosen the stories I tell about myself. And the going in this place where I tend to keep telling them, even if only

• 31:44Ezra Klein?

  to examine them, over time, it becomes very hard to say, well, am I getting better or am I getting worse? Or am I getting more concretized in this one narrative? And I've definitely, I think, watched people get stuck in therapy. And they're probably there for much too long. And it almost becomes a place of ego, right? Somebody who just listens to you and reflects back at you. How do you think about when therapy, talk therapy is helpful and when it can become harmful?

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Well, I'm not sure the length of time that somebody stays in therapy is the right measure. Because when therapy is good, one thing it can be good for is that it's a real relationship. And it can, at its best, be a surprising relationship that continues to provoke and enliven and nourish. So I wouldn't judge it necessarily by the length of time. It's very tempting as a therapist to just sit back and be supportive of the person in their struggle. And I'm sure I fall into that sometimes, but I'm also very aware of being provocative in some kind of way.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  I'm always looking for how to undermine the narrative and coax somebody into a perspective that they might not have had if not for the conversation that we're having. So a lot of the patients who have given me any feedback about what they've gotten out of being in therapy with me, they all tend to say, oh, you always surprised me and that's why I kept coming back. Because I always thought you would say one thing, but you said another thing. And so that feedback makes me feel like, oh, maybe I'm actually doing something helpful, you know?

• 33:45Ezra Klein?

  One thing I wonder about is, and I'm about to sound like a big skeptic of therapy, and I'm not. I've been in therapy with many different therapists and have gained hugely through those relationships. But we have this society right now that is much more therapeutic than it has been at any other point in history, much more influenced by therapy, there are more therapists, people go to it more often, it's more de-stigmatized. And you might think, having spread this treatment so far...

• 34:18Ezra Klein?

  That you would see this huge reduction in the things that therapy most obviously treats, depression, anxiety, other kinds of disorders you might find in the DSM manual. We seem to not be seeing that. We seem to be seeing a more therapeutically informed society where this has almost become more of people's self-definition, particularly among young people where sometimes it feels like anxiety is almost an identity. How do you think about that tension? I mean, you know, from your own work, that therapy can do great good, and yet somehow we have a much larger societal dose of therapy in a much more comfortable time to be a human being than 100 years ago in this country. And we don't seem to be doing great.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a lot of truth in what you're saying. We had a series of conferences a couple of decades ago about Buddhism and psychoanalysis, bringing R.D. Lang and Ram Dass and people like that together. And one of the conclusions that came out of those conferences was that one of the things that psychoanalysis or psychotherapy and Buddhism or meditation, one of the things they really share are that they're two methods that don't work. You know, because what people want from them is, you know, like beyond what either

• 35:42Speaker 01

  of them can do. So to try to answer your question, neuroscience, science, psychopharmacology, we really don't understand the mind, or the brain, or any of the major psychiatric disorders, bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, OCD, even post-traumatic stress, you know, there's a lot of talk about the neurophysiological correlates, and there's a lot of work to be done, but the genetics of it, we don't understand anything. So in terms of treatments, even the drug treatments, you know, are very crude. Then there's a whole class of people, since

• 36:23Speaker 01

  the advent of Prozac and the SSRIs and so on, who are hoping that this medication or that medication will

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Free them in some way from thoughts or feelings that have been plaguing them. And sometimes those medicines really help. So I have an ear for when they might. And what I usually find is that either they're going to help or they do nothing. So it shouldn't be a surprise that people aren't just like magically better. Plus, being a person is really difficult. Having a marriage is difficult. Having children is difficult. Having parents are difficult. Being in this world politically is difficult. Even when the country is at peace, it's difficult. So psychotherapy is like a miracle in our culture

• 37:17Speaker 01

  that two people could come together in a room with no purpose other than to talk about what's happening between them or in each of their lives kind of thing. So there's a kind of comfort in it, which might really be what it's good for. Like, it's a relationship where you can be yourself. And how many of those do we really have, you know?

• 37:42Ezra Klein?

  It's true that it is hard to be a person. And it's also true that we don't understand much about people and the mind or the brain or these disorders. And it's also true that both therapy and, in a different way, meditation are very alert to stories. And I guess something I have wondered over the years is to what degree the therapeutic stories we are telling are contagious? That the more we become a society alert and validating of the experience of anxiety, more people begin to notice their anxiety. Noticing it makes you more sensitive to the fact that you're anxious and it kind of begins to build from there. I've felt that that has happened to me at times.

• 38:24Ezra Klein?

  Or trauma is something we didn't talk about nearly as much 30 years ago as we do today. Now, my grandparents' generation, my great-grandparents' generation, they had far more trauma in their lives. Like, when I think about what happened to them, what they escaped from, what they dealt with. And if you've talked to them, I mean, and I did when I was younger, they did not describe themselves as traumatized. That was not their self-definition. I mean, and some of them had gone through, I mean, I'm Jewish, had gone through terrible things. And today, trauma is omnipresent. You've written a whole book on trauma. You describe in your book on this, trauma as a kind of omnipresent feature of everyday life.

• 39:06Ezra Klein?

  How do you think about that, that the sort of rise of people believing that their trauma is definitional to them, despite the fact that I don't think one could really defend the proposition that people who grew up in the 90s and 2000s, or the 80s and the 90s, are net-net going through more things we would objectively describe as traumatic than the people who grew up in the 30s, the 40s, the 20s?

• 39:30Speaker 01

  I think, first of all, the pendulum has swung about trauma, like you're saying. So, coming out of World War I, even coming out of World War II, the norm was not to talk about it. So, the men who came back from war and from the trenches, or from the plains, or whatever, the norm was not to talk about it. And that worked for some people and didn't work for other people, and led to a lot of alcoholism and secrets and acting out in ways that people didn't understand and so on. And the therapeutic culture that we're a part of came around and began to see what the downside was of that way of coping.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  The intrinsic tendency of the ego, of the self, the intrinsic defense mechanism, is to look away. When the Buddha used the word dukkha to describe suffering, life is tinged with a sense of unsatisfactoriness or suffering, the actual word dukkha can be broken apart and translated as "hard to face." The problem with that is that we never put words on it. When trauma, either little trauma of second grade being difficult, or big trauma of losing a child, or a partner, or a piece of your body, or whatever. My sense of what can be therapeutic in those

• 40:54Speaker 01

  conditions is to help a person who has been through something like that, begin to articulate what the experience really was. And once it's articulated, it can either become a thing that gets over-articulated, like you were saying, where it becomes the defining narrative, or it can take its place in a person's history so that they have the understanding, they've achieved the understanding, and they can begin to file it away in a conscious way, in a conscious place, rather than it being stored in some kind of unconscious place where it leaps out in the shadows, you know, and wrecks the life.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  So, the over-articulation of the anxiety that one could say is a normal part of being a human is just as much a problem as the suppression or repression, because once you're over-identified with any aspect of your experience, then you're falling into the trap of conceit or of self, and that becomes a limiting factor. And it's sort of like, it's making me think about the swings of the pendulum in terms of infants and their parents and the infant's sleep. When we had kids, it was all about Ferber, and you had to Ferberize your child, and let them cry, and then the pendulum swung, and it's like, sleep in the same bed.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  And there's problems on either side.

• 42:23Ezra Klein?

  Let me ask you, or try a thought on you and see what you think of it. In the people I have known who have gone through profoundly terrible things, things people should not have to go through, the people I've known who, it seems, have emerged the healthiest, in some cases, I feel like they're much healthier than I am, with my more gentle existence, are the people who have eventually turned the work they were doing inward to work they're doing outward. That something about what they went through and the way they processed it became a way they began to interact with others. And they made meaning out of it. But it became part of the way they give their own gifts into the world.

• 43:05Ezra Klein?

  And it has deepened their own sensitivity and empathy and the set of tools that they use to help others. And then the people I've known who've struggled more, I feel like they've sort of gotten trapped on the internal part, right? It's become not just a story about them, but a story that has kept them trapped inside themselves. It's become a way they don't have to engage as much with other people and other people's experiences, because like theirs has remained so overwhelming. There's something about being able to turn the internal experience into something external that seems important, but my sample size here is limited.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  No, no, I think you're totally correct. The common tendency when some horrible thing happens that we feel should never happen to anyone, but those kinds of things are going to happen to everyone because we all face old age, illness, death, separation from the loved, et cetera. But when it happens in an obvious, extreme way, the common psychological tendency is to feel like I'm the only one who this is happening to. They call it a sense of singularity. And that is very imprisoning. It's totally normal. The floods that are happening now at the camp in Texas, you know, that should never be happening.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  All these parents are losing their kids, you know? And each one is going to feel like no one is going to be able to relate to this. And they, you know, there are a couple of great Buddhist stories, famous Buddhist stories where the Buddha comes upon a woman whose child has died, who won't put down her dead baby. And the villagers are scared of her and, and she's acting like a crazy person. And she says, isn't there anyone who can help me? And they point her towards the Buddha. The Buddha says, yeah, I've got medicine for you. Just all I need is a mustard seed from a family in the village where no one has lost a husband or a wife or a parent or a child. Just go bring me the mustard seed.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  And she goes and talks to everyone and she can't find anyone who hasn't experienced this kind of loss. And one of the great benefits of working in a psychotherapeutic way with an event like that is that sometimes you start to feel like, even though this horrible thing has happened to me, like this is a window into all the horrible things that are happening everywhere to everyone.

• 45:41Ezra Klein?

  I don't know the quote from you in front of me, but in that book about trauma, you write something that is like, "Trauma is a terrible experience that is not relationally held."

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Yeah. What makes it a terrible experience is that it's not relationally held. The need is for the holding in the aftermath of something like that.

• 46:04Ezra Klein?

  Tell me about the relational dimension of it, though.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Well, we're relational beings. That's the great revelation. You know, we think we're isolated individuals, like locked inside our heads with our thoughts, in competition with everybody else. But we're not. From the beginning, from infancy, we're relational beings. We know ourselves through the reflection, the mirroring of the parent. We are constantly in relationship to our world. We're not separate from the world. We are of the world and we are of each other. So we need each other. We need each other to make sense out of our experience.

• 47:09Ezra Klein?

  The needing each other is... Such an interesting dimension of being human. You know, in the, in the classic sort of origin story of the Buddha goes out and sees old age, goes out and sees sickness, sees death, sees loss. It's not just it'll happen to you, it will happen to everybody. And it makes being in relationship with anybody very frightening. All the way down to the small bits of it, which is far before you face any of that, just the knowledge that the, on the one hand, that you need people terribly. And on the other hand, that you won't always get what you want from them.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:45Ezra Klein?

  Like the nature of other people is they cannot fully give you what you want because they're someone else.

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:53Ezra Klein?

  And like, there's always going to be that gap between the two of you.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:57Ezra Klein?

  You have a book about desire, which is a very important concept in Buddhism. It's sort of all about this. Can you give me a little bit of that thesis?

• 48:06Speaker 01

  The book about desire was written to try to defend desire from the Buddhists who kept saying, when they talk about the four noble truths, you know, the first truth is suffering, the second truth is the cause of suffering, and the cause of suffering is desire. And so all these people who I knew who are Buddhists were running around like denying their desire, you know, or in, in deep conflict about their own desires, especially their erotic desires. So my understanding of the Buddhist teaching was not that he was saying that the cause of suffering was desire, but that the cause of suffering was clinging or craving or ignorance.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  And the clinging or craving or ignorance had to do with trying to get more from one's desire than desire was able to yield, which is what you were paraphrasing there. That desire often, if not always, leaves a gap. And Freud wrote about this very beautifully. The gap between what's imagined, what's desired, and what's actually possible. And Freud called that the reality principle, you know, that the pleasure principle runs into the reality principle. And the Buddha talked about the same thing.

• 49:27Ezra Klein?

  You have in the book about desire that I found very moving. Love is a revelation of the other person's freedom. Tell me what that means to you.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  That's the best quote in the book. The wish, the inclination of erotic desire is to fully possess or become one with the loved object, person, body, however you want to say it. The revelation is that the other person's subjectivity can never be totally known. No matter the desire, no matter the love, there's a separation there which can't be breached. And love means you allow that.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  And you actually experience it first as a disappointment and then as a release.

• 50:25Ezra Klein?

  Tell me what you mean when you say experience it as release. Like, what does it mean? Not just have the revelation of the other person's freedom, but actually to respect another person's freedom.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Love that allows the other person's freedom means that you can let them go away with the faith and the understanding that they will return. So that permission and that faith is an essential part of love.

• 50:56Ezra Klein?

  You talk about there always being a residual of loneliness in all relationships. And you say, "In the revelation of another person's freedom is a window into a state of non-clinging." You go on, "While desire yearns for completion and seeks it most commonly in love, it can find the freedom it is looking for only by not clinging." What does that mean?

• 51:17Speaker 01

  That the space between the liminal space, the space of disappointment, the space where you're thrown back on yourself, is a spiritual place. And it's a very important place to explore. And it takes you deep into the self in a unscripted and potentially nourishing way. And in that book, I quoted the poet Anne Carson, who has a beautiful book called Eros, The Bittersweet, where she quotes Sappho, and she's a scholar of ancient Greek. But she says, "The Greek word for bittersweet is actually sweet bitter, that it's turned around in English.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  The sweetness comes first, but then, because there's always like a little bit of a letdown, you know, there's where the bitterness is." And the Buddha, in his teachings, was actually saying, "That gap is interesting." And that if instead of turning away, or getting angry, or getting frustrated, or trying to squeeze more out of the object of desire, if instead we can settle our minds into that gap with less judgment, that there's an important lesson there that will help us with old age, illness, death, and any other tragedies that are going to befall us.

• 52:43Ezra Klein?

  You have a lovely, I think you have some of the teacher, Stephen Bachler, in that book. But he talks about this difference between holding a coin in a clenched fist and holding it with an open palm.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:55Ezra Klein?

  And I found that to be a very resonant visual for me. But how do you understand that difference? Because nobody's saying, you're not saying that people can or should get rid of desire, or that the suffering will go away, or any of it, really. But that there's some difference between clenching around things and still holding them, but there being some space around it. What creates a space?

• 53:16Speaker 01

  For me, one of the prime motivations of desire is the...

• 53:25Speaker 01

  The need of the self to come in contact with its own mutability. So it's the need of the self to to merge temporarily with the other, to loosen its boundaries. So the clenching that can come with desire is basically holding on too tight to, we say in psychoanalytic language, the object of our desire, even though it's a person, not an object, which tends to alienate the other or push them away or actually get in the way of the experience of the other. The open hand, holding the other with an open hand, allows space around both of you

• 54:08Speaker 01

  so that there's room for the inevitable moving away.

• 54:13Ezra Klein?

  But pull out of the metaphor of the holding, right? Like, let's literalize that. We all have things that we want, we desire. And then when they don't happen, or they happen not the way we were hoping they would happen, we get upset, right? I wanted this night to go this way. I wanted this trip to not get canceled. I wanted this promotion to happen, whatever it might be. And I understand that the clench fist is a kind of anger, right? I wanted this thing and I didn't get it, or I didn't get it the way I wanted to get it. And now I'm upset and I'm trying to change it, or I'm angry at people for it, or I'm angry at myself.

• 54:56Ezra Klein?

  What is the actual experience of being open-palmed about it? Because I try sometimes. And I almost feel like what I end up doing is like white knuckling through my own emotional response. It's like, I know that I'm trying to be open-palmed, so I'm just gonna sit here and endure it. This is a good metaphor because we all understand what it means to open and close a fist.

• 55:16Ezra Klein?

  But emotionally, internally, what are you talking about?

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Emotionally, internally, what I'm saying is, all of those feelings are gonna come, the frustrated ones that you're talking about, but they don't have to hold you tight. Because the spaciousness that comes from opening up the palm is what allows you to move into the new reality.

• 55:41Ezra Klein?

  But how do you do it?

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Just by opening the palm.

• 55:44Ezra Klein?

  Okay, but there's no palm in this. We're not actually holding things.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  The palm is in your mind. Yeah.

• 55:51Ezra Klein?

  My experience of emotions having a hold on me, to get very specific about it, is I'm upset about something and I can't stop thinking about it. It just plays and replays and replays and replays. And every time I catch myself, I can be like, oh, there's a thought again. But it just keeps happening. And it feels like a storm inside me, like energy. And I can let it out, yell at somebody, yell at myself. And I don't, I'm actually pretty good at controlling that kind of thing usually. But it's still there. I don't know what it would mean in that moment to open my palm. I don't feel like I have control.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not saying that we actually have control over our emotional responses to things. If something is making you angry, you're gonna get angry before your thinking mind can tell you not to. So I think it's trickier than that. It's that, once the difficult emotion is aroused, we don't have to completely indulge it. There's always a moment when self-awareness kicks in. And it's at that moment when the self-awareness kicks in that we have a choice. So you could try visualizing opening your palm, like that literally.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  What some cognitive behavioral people might have you do is actually try to think those thoughts consciously more, rather than, oh, I can't stop them and they keep coming, you know? So you could play with it in various ways. And the idea is to begin to play with the reactions, rather than feeling besieged by them.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  And you might have to try, you know, five different things, but.

• 57:42Ezra Klein?

  Is that something that you feel over your life, over your practice, over your therapy? You've gotten much better at like, how, what is the difference between how Mark Epstein handles an upsetting situation today versus, you know, when you were in college?

• 57:56Speaker 01

  There's not much difference.

• 57:59Ezra Klein?

  All this work you've done, all this meditation?

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:01Ezra Klein?

  You say you're in the same place?

• 58:03Speaker 01

  When I'm upset about something, I'm upset in much the same way. Hopefully it doesn't go on as long.

• 58:09Ezra Klein?

  So what was all this for then?

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Well, something to do.

• 58:14Ezra Klein?

  Come on, either you don't believe the thing you're telling me, or this undermines a book somewhat.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I think it's all in the attitude that one has towards one's experience.

• 58:25Ezra Klein?

  Well, but that might be the difference.

• 58:27Speaker 01

  That is the difference.

• 58:28Ezra Klein?

  So what is the difference in the attitude you would have had when you were 20 to the attitude you would have now?

• 58:33Speaker 01

  Oh, I have much more of a sense of humor about myself, at least in the immediate aftermath of whatever it is that has been so upsetting. I definitely get upset about what I get upset about. And the people who are close to me have to live with that. There's no.

• 58:49Ezra Klein?

  So you've not become non-reactive?

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Oh, no. I don't think that that's a possibility.

• 58:55Ezra Klein?

  So what is a possibility here? What if, if you do a lifetime of this work and it goes well, what, what have you achieved at the end of it, aside from that it was interesting? And I agree that meditating is interesting.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, what have you achieved? Peace of mind.

• 59:09Ezra Klein?

  But it doesn't sound like you have peace of mind. It sounds like you're stormy.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  No, I have peace of mind, definitely.

• 59:14Ezra Klein?

  All right, match those up for me.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Within the storminess.

• 59:17Ezra Klein?

  Uh huh.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  I'm not trying not to be stormy.

• 59:20Ezra Klein?

  So people are dealing with you being stormy. They have to sort of handle that you're, you have the temper you always had and the upset you always had. What part of you has peace of mind during that? Or is it just later that you are better returning to something more equanimous?

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Well, it's not a part of me that has peace of mind. Either I have it or I don't have it. Because there's only one of me, if there is one of me. But I have confidence in the people who are around me that they know me and can not be destroyed by me. So that's very reassuring. So I have permission from the environment that I'm not so bad that I'm going to destroy. So that's very helpful as a container. And I know that the frustrated, violent, angry, sad reactions are just reactions and not really who I am.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  So there's always a part of me that's looking at it like, if I were going to write something, how would I portray this?

• 1:00:28Ezra Klein?

  So the peace of mind is a subtle de-identification?

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:32Ezra Klein?

  With the experience you're having?

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:00:35Ezra Klein?

  And what does that do for you?

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  It makes me less afraid.

• 1:00:39Ezra Klein?

  Of what?

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  Of myself.

• 1:00:42Ezra Klein?

  And you used to be more afraid of yourself?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  I don't know if I was consciously aware of that, but I was anxious.

• 1:00:47Ezra Klein?

  And so that has created a... You do not find those experiences as...

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's created a buffer.

• 1:00:54Ezra Klein?

  Buffer is an interesting word. I feel like in the periods of my meditation is going well, which is not always, the thing I have is buffer. It's very slim, but it's just like a little bit of separation. And it's very valuable. And it's very hard to maintain. But it is just like a couple milliseconds between me and my reactions.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  The thing that comes with that is a kind of humor, which is very helpful when dealing with oneself who we tend to take ourselves so seriously. So I think that's the other way to answer your question, like what has changed? I think I have a little more of a sense of humor about myself or about situations, as terrible as they can be.

• 1:01:38Ezra Klein?

  Doesn't Joseph Goldstein have a line that's something like, enlightenment is lightning up? And I'm not saying that you're enlightened, but you're sort of getting at something like that, which is that there's a lightning up here.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  I think in terms of... You know, what does all this really do? Like, I think that the lightning up is probably as good a way of talking about it as any. I had a friend, he's deceased now, a psychotherapist named Jack Engler, took all the psychological testing, the Rorschach tests, projective tests, went to India, gave all those tests to control group, beginning meditators, advanced meditators and meditation teachers. And what he found was even in the most advanced meditators, there was no diminution of internal conflict. There was just a greater willingness to acknowledge the conflict. So he was a little disappointed, you know, like, but I think that plays into what I'm saying, you know?

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Like, you're still you, no matter what you're doing, you're still you, but maybe there's a little change.

• 1:02:40Ezra Klein?

  Do you feel that there is a difference in what your mind or your awareness attaches to? And here's what I mean by that. Even in my own experience, if I get in a really good night of sleep and my kids are being challenging, my ability to look at that challenge with humor or even be with them in it is extremely different than if I got a bad night of sleep. And that is holding what they are doing completely constant. And then there are people I know who are much, have much deeper meditative practices and other kinds of practices than I do.

• 1:03:24Ezra Klein?

  And I'll sometimes be with them and I'll notice that their mind will incline towards the things they like in a situation. In almost the same way, my mind will incline to the things that dissatisfy me in a situation. And I wonder sometimes if like the point of this path of this work is to try to like change what is attracting you, right? Change what you're noticing, change what you're fixating on, right? The beauty of the moment rather than the edginess of it. Do you feel that that is true of, is that a viable thing to hope for? Is that too much?

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  I liked what you were saying about when you get a good night's sleep, your way of relating to the kids is different. Because I think what meditation is trying to give us is the equivalent of a good night's sleep. It doesn't guarantee a good night's sleep. But the attitude that you've found in yourself when dealing with the kids, that's how we're training ourselves to be with our own minds in meditation. It's very analogous. And that thing that you're describing of benevolently looking to the good, supporting that, recognizing but not judging too critically what you don't like, all of that is beneficial for the mind.

• 1:04:45Ezra Klein?

  And then also our final question. What are three books you'd recommend to the audience?

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  A new book called John and Paul, A Love Story by Ian Leslie. Do you know that book?

• 1:04:56Ezra Klein?

  I've heard of it.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  About the Beatle, about, you think you know the Beatles, but you don't know the Beatles.

• 1:05:00Ezra Klein?

  It did seem to me we needed another book about the Beatles.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  We, who thought that? It's so good.

• 1:05:06Ezra Klein?

  I've heard this actually from other Beatle, Beatles lovers.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Not just from a Beatle, in terms of the mutability of the self and the creative act and love, it has everything. It's fantastic. Donald Hall, the poet, Essays After Eighty. Donald Hall was a sort of straighter poet than the Beat poets, but of the same time period. He was married for many years to Jane Kenyon, who was younger. And everyone said to her, why are you with this old guy? He's going to die. But then she died, and so he was alone. He stopped writing poetry, but he kept writing essays from his farmhouse in New Hampshire. And the essays are incredible about having lived a whole life. Some of them about being eighty and some of them reflecting back to when he was young.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  And it just gives a sense of someone who has a cohesive life and a wonderful voice. Totally inspiring. And the third book I would say to recommend is a novel called Kairos, K-A-I-R-O-S, by Jenny Urpenbeck, who's a German, German writer, so it's translated.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  And it's a wonderful novel about the breakup of Berlin, the wall falling in Berlin. And it's a love story about a 19-year-old girl and a 50-year-old man that is incredibly compelling.

• 1:06:33Ezra Klein?

  Mark Epstein, thank you very much.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  Thank you, Ezra. Great to be here.

• 1:06:51Ezra Klein?

  This episode of The Ezra Klansh is produced by Kristen Lynn, fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior audio engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Zahda. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show's production team also includes Annie Galvin, Marie Cassillon, Roland Hu, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jack McCordick, and Jan Kobal. Original music by Isaac Jones and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Christina C. Maluski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.