The Problem with Authenticity & The Psychology That Fuels War

What really happens when two people kiss? Far more than you think. From the brain chemistry it triggers, to the subtle information you’re exchanging, to the dozens of muscles involved — kissing is a complex act with fascinating effects on both body and mind. https://www.thehealthy.com/family/relationships/6-ways-kissing-makes-you-stronger/#ixzz3kK7pLATk “Be authentic.” You’ve heard that advice countless times — but what does it actually mean? Do you really have one “authentic self”? And if so, why are the less admirable parts of that self rarely included in the conversation? My guest Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic — Chief Innovation Officer at ManpowerGroup, professor of business psychology at University College London and Columbia University, and author of Don't Be Yourself: Why Authenticity Is Overrated (and What to Do Instead) (https://amzn.to/4mBCbM9) — argues that authenticity is often misunderstood and even harmful. He reveals a smarter way to think about who you are and how you present yourself. There has never been a moment in recorded history without war. Not one. So, is war inevitable — a hardwired part of human nature? Neuroscientist Nicholas Wright explores this question, drawing from his research on the brain, technology, and security at University College London, Georgetown University, and the Center for Strategic and International Studies, where he also advises the Pentagon Joint Staff. He’s the author of Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and War Shapes the Brain (https://amzn.to/42YWADU), and he offers a provocative look at whether humans are doomed to fight — or if peace is truly possible. Finally, what’s in your purse or briefcase could be hurting you more than you realize. Carrying too much weight around day after day can wreak havoc on your body. In this closing segment, I’ll explain the hidden dangers of an overloaded bag — and what you can do about it. https://www.lutherandowntownhospital.com/health-library/272 PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! INDEED: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ right now! DELL: Your new Dell PC with Intel Core Ultra helps you handle a lot when your holiday to-dos get to be…a lot. Upgrade today by visiting⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://Dell.com/Deals⁠⁠⁠⁠ QUINCE: Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns! SHOPIFY: Shopify is the commerce platform for millions of businesses around the world! To start selling today, sign up for your $1 per month trial at⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Carruthers?

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• 1:23Mike Carruthers?

  Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is a job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. Today on Something You Should Know, the amazing things that happen when two people kiss. Then, there's a lot of advice that says you should be more authentic, but there's also another view.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Authenticity as a concept is practically meaningless and not very helpful. Whether you think that you are acting in good faith or bad faith is part of who you really are. And even if you try really, really hard, you can only be you.

• 2:13Mike Carruthers?

  Plus, just how heavy is your purse or briefcase? Because it could matter. And the fascinating psychology of war, and why humans seem to need to fight.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Ultimately, I don't want my children to go off from fight to war. I think that would be a waste. But if we are not prepared to do that when we must, then we will be easy pickings for those who are prepared to do that.

• 2:39Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know. Now here's something that might be worth a minute of your time. How would you like a thousand dollars to spend on shopping? Especially with the holidays coming. Well, the people behind Shopify have a shopping site called shop.com. And to celebrate the new shop.com, they're giving away a million dollars in shop cash. But not to one person. A thousand people will each win a thousand dollars in shop cash. And shop.com is actually a really clever idea. It brings lots of different stores together in one place.

• 3:21Mike Carruthers?

  So instead of bouncing around from website to website, you can search across stores, find what you're looking for, and track your orders all in one place. Clothes, electronics, gifts, things for the house, all kinds of stuff. And whether you win or not, it's worth knowing. But with a thousand chances to win a thousand dollars, I'd certainly take a look. Enter to win the one million dollar shop cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply.

• 4:04Mike Carruthers?

  Official rules available at shop.com.

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today. Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

• 4:22Mike Carruthers?

  You've probably heard the phrase and the lyrics in the song, "A kiss is just a kiss." Oh, no, that's just not true. Hi and welcome to Something You Should Know. We're starting this episode talking about kissing. Because when two people kiss, there's a lot going on. Scientific reports say kissing increases the levels of oxytocin. That's the body's natural calming chemical and also increases endorphins. The body's feel-good chemicals and aids in feelings of romantic attachment. According to anthropologist Helen Fisher, kissing is kind of a mate assessment tool.

• 5:03Mike Carruthers?

  Much of your brain's cortex is devoted to picking up sensations from around your lips, cheeks, tongue, and nose. Out of 12 cranial nerves, five of them are picking up the data from around your mouth. It is built to pick up the most sensitive feelings, the most intricate tastes and smells and touch and temperature. And so when you're kissing somebody, you're getting a lot of data. Don't underestimate the workout your mouth gets during a make-out session. Researchers say you use 30 muscles while kissing, and all that kissing helps keep your cheeks tight. Kissing boosts immunity too. Kissing has long been thought to be a way of passing bacteria, which then strengthens the body's defenses.

• 5:48Mike Carruthers?

  And that is something you should know.

• 5:54Mike Carruthers?

  Everywhere you turn, it seems people are talking about authenticity. Be authentic. Show up as your true self. But here's the problem. What if you don't have just one self? I know I don't. I adapt depending on where I am and who I'm with. At work, at home, at a party, or with kids. I'm not the same version of me. So if authenticity means showing up as only one real you... Something seems wrong with the whole idea. My guest today, Tomas Chamorro Premuzic argues exactly that. He's Chief Innovation Officer at Manpower Group and a professor of business psychology

• 6:39Mike Carruthers?

  at Columbia University and the University College of London. He's author of a book called "Don't Be Yourself: Why Authenticity Is Overrated and What to Do Instead." Hey Tomas, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 6:55Mike Carruthers?

  So as I mentioned, I've never really understood the whole idea of being more authentic. Like, I am who I am, and if I do it, it's authentically me. And so I'm not on board, I guess, with the whole movement of be more authentic.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  You're part of a minority, I would say, of people, certainly in America, given that the authenticity cult, you know, translated into kind of mantras such as, "Don't worry about what people think of you, always be true to your values no matter what, bring your whole self to work, if you think you're great, you are, and always be honest with yourself and others." These are the kind of things that actually seem to be almost the kind of North Star guiding people's behavior, or at least attempting to.

• 7:47Mike Carruthers?

  I mean, on the surface of it, when I hear, you know, "You have to be your authentic self", implies that you have to be the same with everybody. That in every situation, you have to be you, and that that's one person and that that's you. But everybody's different in every different situation. You're not the same with your kids as you are with your boss, with your wife, with your... So the premise falls apart.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  I have kids aged eight and five, and, you know, interestingly, even at the age of three or four, children know that they need to behave better when they're invited into other people's homes than in their own home. And that's because they're aware of the etiquette. So, you know, it would be ludicrous to lose that ability as adults. Likewise, you know... Work is not an invitation to impose your uncensored or uninhibited self on others or to bring your whole self. It's an invitation to bring the best and most professional version of you, leaving the bad ones, you know, impulsive you, grumpy you, opinionated you at home. And of course, I feel sorry for your family or the people at home

• 8:57Speaker 01

  because you're leaving those parts with them. But you know, better not to bring them to the office.

• 9:02Mike Carruthers?

  So my guess is that if we had someone here who is a big proponent of authenticity and being more authentic, they would say, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is, what you're saying is not what we mean. My, my assumption would be that what they mean is to be your best self. To be authentic is to be as good as you can be.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  It's useful in those instances to actually look at the evidence, you know, from scientific studies. There's a lot of academic research in this area. And there's maybe two or three things that I would highlight as important, yet kind of a not commonly known facts about authenticity. The first and most important one is that there is just no way of objectively determining whether somebody is authentic or not. And so, right now, we have two kinds of measures of authenticity. One is simply asking people whether they feel authentic about their behavior or not. And of course, that's extremely unreliable.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  That's a bit like asking people whether they have a great sense of humor. Ninety-five percent of people think yes and say yes. And how many people are actually funny? Or asking them whether they are creative, whether they are talented, or whether they are a good person, you know. Our own self views have zero reliability and accuracy predicting how other people see us. And then the other, more important one, is to ask others whether they find us authentic or not. Now that, well, it might lead to kind of an inter-rater agreement in the sense that different people tend to agree whether they Find somebody authentic or not, actually, as we know, that is very, very contaminated.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  That kind of measure of authenticity in the eye of the beholder is contaminated by whether you like the person or not, whether you align with their values or with their political views. For example, you know, the degree to which you find Obama more authentic than Trump or vice versa is predicted entirely by your political affiliation. And also, what's interesting is that research shows that we find others authentic when they have high emotional intelligence, because they're really good at skilled self-presentation. They're very good at strategically putting on a professional self or, you know, harnessing their work or professional reputation in a way that is believable.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  At times, yes, it means paying attention to consistency between what you say and what to do, but mostly it has to do with actually being more other-oriented, focusing on being valuable to others, rather than, you know, unleashing your unfiltered or unedited self on others. So those things are really, really important. And of course, you know, there is a wonderful paradox underlying the thought that somebody is telling you to ignore what other people tell you and to just be yourself. I mean, that's somebody telling you how to act and what to do. So by definition, if you try to ignore it, you can't.

• 12:11Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I've always found it puzzling that when people talk about being your authentic self, it's always about the good qualities, your core values and your core beliefs. But part of every person's authentic self is another side. You might call it a darker side of bad thoughts or you have a temper or, you know, that's still part of who you are. But when the people who talk about authenticity talk about it, they don't say, "Well, yeah, make sure you bring that part."

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Let me give you an extreme example, but I'm sure you'll understand the reasoning or the logic. By most parameters and definitions, Adolf Hitler was an authentic leader. First, you know, he displayed great consistency between what he said and what he did. Secondly, he was true to his values. Unfortunately, they were extremely toxic, antisocial, repugnant, and destructive. Third, he didn't care very much about what other people thought of him. And fourth, you could also argue, he was non-compromising and, you know, completely disinterested in basically following external norms

• 13:25Speaker 01

  or external parameters of morality. That might sound extreme, but if you think of a much, much less harmful and less extreme example, the majority of people in the workplace today feel that their values are right. They have lost the ability to entertain, that perhaps people with opposite values might have a point and might be right. And this notion that, you know, others should adjust to our character, our way of being, is a very egocentric, narcissistic, and entitled kind of an approach to interpersonal relations. But actually, it's what dominates most of the current or modern etiquette,

• 14:08Speaker 01

  not just in the workplace, but especially in online or digital settings.

• 14:12Mike Carruthers?

  So I think there is a notion that being more authentic is a good thing. That generally, how can you argue with that? It seems like that would be a good thing. But what I've never understood is why? What is the benefit? The reported benefit to being more authentic? If I become more authentic... By the definition of authenticity that people talk about, what good will come from it?

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Well, I think people tell you that, but in a way, you know, a good way to understand the authenticity cult is that demands, requests, or suggestions to others, you know, being authentic, are really not very authentic at all. I mean, certainly, you know, if you think about the epicenter or the vortex of the authenticity cult, which is probably Los Angeles and Hollywood and, you know, kind of a social media, I mean, nothing is less authentic than that. But of course, you know, you can see, you don't have to be very cynical or skeptical to understand why it might be in other people's interests to encourage you to be authentic, because it's a little bit like, you know, if you're playing poker with someone and you tell them, you know,

• 15:26Speaker 01

  just tell me what your hand is or reveal your cards, it makes things easy for you, right? If they do so, I mean, that's a lot easier than trying to read between the lines, trying to exercise emotional intelligence or political skills to really interpret other people's behaviors. And of course, you know, I do think that generally speaking, we prefer others to be not just nice to us, but to also truly mean it deep down. But at the same time, let's accept or agree on the fact that, you know, most people prefer fake politeness than authentic rudeness, or, you know, a kind of genuine obnoxiousness.

• 16:07Mike Carruthers?

  Yeah, I do. I certainly prefer that. I would rather somebody pretend to be nice to me than be a jerk.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  And I think, I think you're not an exception there. You and I are part of the norm, you know, we all do.

• 16:18Mike Carruthers?

  We're talking about authenticity with Tomas Chamorro Pramusic. He is a professor of business psychology and author of the book, Don't Be Yourself: Why Authenticity Is Overrated and What to Do Instead.

• 16:34Speaker 04

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 17:01Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 17:26Mike Carruthers?

  So Tomas, I'm not sure I'm able to really tell how big a deal this is for average people. You know, I talked to, during this podcast, I talked to a lot of authors, psychologists. I mean, the idea of authenticity comes up a lot in other interviews. So I'm not sure I have a clear view of, are people really jumping on the bandwagon? Is authenticity a big deal?

• 17:58Speaker 01

  In the year 2024 or 2023, authenticity was, you know, kind of chosen as word of the year by Merriam-Webster. And that was based not just on the importance that we attribute to authenticity and social media interactions, but also, you know, now with the rise of artificial intelligence, it's increasingly difficult to know whether you're dealing with a human or a bot or a synthetic kind of a version of a human, a deep fake or digital clone. But more importantly, you know, whether it is restaurants, I mean, you know, people love to think that they're eating authentic Mexican, authentic Italian, authentic Chinese.

• 18:40Speaker 01

  By the way, just like with restaurants, if people tell you they're authentic, you can probably assume they're not, you know, it's something that kind of crosses from restaurant to humans. But then, you know, in the world of kind of commerce or consumerism, people will pay 50 or 100 times more for a diamond if they think it's authentic than if they assume it's synthetic, even though no machinery or equipment is capable of differentiating between synthetic, lab-grown... And real, genuine, kind of natural diamonds. And at the same time, people love the idea that leaders should be authentic.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Let's go back to 2016, when Trump was deemed a more competent politician or debater than Hillary Clinton on the basis that he was more authentic and she was not authentic. Again, an attribution, right, that people make. So generally speaking, whether we're talking about restaurants, food, diamonds, designer handbag, or people, the assumption is that not just authenticity is better than the reverse, but that we're somehow capable of actually identifying or quantifying how authentic something or someone is, which of course isn't true. And by the way, you know, technically speaking, anything you do is part of who you really

• 20:03Speaker 01

  are. Whether you think that you are acting in good faith or bad faith, you know, interestingly, research shows that when people behave properly or do something that leads to success, they interpret that as their authentic self, because it's of course a way to rationalize that you're amazing when good things happen to you. And when bad things happen to you, or you're acting in a way that offends or upsets others, you are basically rationalizing that as saying, oh, that wasn't me, that was out of character, I was influenced by the situation, or whatever that is. But you know, anything you do is part of who you really are. And even if you try really, really hard, you can only be you. It's not possible for you to be anybody else.

• 20:47Mike Carruthers?

  And you often hear people who get caught doing something that is out of character, saying things like, oh, I don't know, that wasn't me. Well, yeah, it was, it was you. You did it. They say it's not them, as if they're disowning it, but that is them.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Exactly. I mean, you know, there is this thing called self-monitoring, or paying attention to how your behavior impacts others. By the way, you know, other people are an incredible source of feedback. Feedback from others helps us understand our limitations, what we're good at, you know, whether you're a top athlete, a musician, an artist, or an average worker, the best way to understand your talents and your limitations and your flaws or weaknesses is to internalize other people's views of you. That isn't a sign of weakness, it's how you grow and develop. So again, you know, you will always be you no matter where you go and what to do, but paying attention to your behavior

• 21:49Speaker 01

  and making an effort to display the best version of yourself is what makes you more successful and effective.

• 21:56Mike Carruthers?

  So the, but the best version of yourself isn't necessarily your authentic self, it is, it is the best version of yourself.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, the vast majority, if not all, human beings inhabit multiple selves. There is this wonderful but fairly neglected construct or concept in social psychology called self-complexity, which basically talks about all the dimensions of your identity. So imagine, you know, there's a you who is a podcaster, a broadcaster, a media person, a consultant, a father, a husband, a son. And, you know, the notion that anybody, any employer or organization is interested in us bringing our whole self or displaying all of these dimensions is just ludicrous. Work and any high-stake interaction with others or social situation

• 22:49Speaker 01

  is an invitation to display the relevant aspects of ourselves. And when you're creating your reputation, you need to understand what aspects of yourself or personality people want to see. You know, maybe to use a very simple and relevant or pertinent example for most of us, a job interview. A job interview isn't an invitation for you to show the real you or Or the full spectrum of your self complexity to others. It is an invitation to demonstrate that you have the necessary social skills to understand the social etiquette. And you know, display some pro-social tendencies.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  By the way, if you're, if you're engaging in such deliberate and exaggerated deception and impression management. That is very blatant to others that you're faking it. You pay a high price. So that's not the goal either. But the goal is to, if you like, be yourself, but on a good day.

• 23:49Mike Carruthers?

  Well, and I've always thought too, that you could kind of hide behind this authentic label. Where if you are someone who is unpleasant, unkind, not very caring. You could just say, well, that's who I am. That's my authentic self. And so I'm being authentic.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Exactly. Or for example, the manager says, you know, well, you know, I'm not very good. Empathizing with others or showing consideration or showing appreciation or, you know. Controlling my emotions. That's just how I am. So, you know, my employees have to deal with my. Moodiness, grumpiness, impulsivity, and that's just who I am. As opposed to, should I not try to become somebody better? Would I not benefit from trying to understand other people's point of view? As opposed to broadcasting my unsolicited views and opinions on these controversial topics? Because that's how I think about things.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  One makes you more successful. The other might be more comforting because it requires no self-control, no self-regulation and no emotional intelligence.

• 24:55Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I like conversations like this because you take something that's pretty well regarded and pretty well accepted authenticity. And pull at the strings a little bit and unravel it and it makes for, it makes for an interesting discussion.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  After all of this, I think the most important, I would say, conclusion is that authenticity as a concept is practically meaningless and not very helpful. And we don't need authenticity as a concept to assess either ourselves or others and determine what we like, who we like, and who we don't.

• 25:30Mike Carruthers?

  A perfect way to end it. I've been talking with Tomas Chamorro Premuzic. He is the Chief Innovation Officer at Manpower Group and a professor of business psychology at Columbia University and University College of London. His book is called Don't Be Yourself: Why Authenticity Is Overrated and What to Do Instead. And there is a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Tomas, thank you so much.

• 25:58Speaker 04

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you, based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 26:26Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 26:57Mike Carruthers?

  When you think about it, war is one of the strangest things humans do. Killing people, destroying things, it makes no logical sense. And yet, history shows that war has been a constant. Across centuries and civilizations, there's never really been a time without war.

• 27:18Mike Carruthers?

  Which raises the haunting question, is war part of human nature? Something we're wired to do? You would think that as society has advanced, war would fade away. But instead, conflicts rage on all around the world. My guest today, Nicholas Wright, has a fascinating perspective on why that is. He's a neuroscientist at University College London, Georgetown, and a center for strategic and international studies in Washington DC, where he also advises the Pentagon Joint Staff. He's author of a book called Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and War Shapes the Brain. Hi Nicholas, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Hi Mike, thank you for having me.

• 28:03Mike Carruthers?

  So, given that war has been around since people, is it your view, because it seems like it, that war is just human nature? That's what people do?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  I'm afraid to say I think that you are entirely correct. It is part of what it is to be human. All of us, every brain in the world, yours, mine, every listener's, is built to win, or at least survive, a fight. That's not everything we do, but that's part of what it is to be human.

• 28:37Mike Carruthers?

  And yet, it seems, you wouldn't certainly know better, but it seems as if attitudes about war are different now, today. I remember watching, when I was watching Downton Abbey, back when it was first on, and there were, when they went off to World War I, they portrayed young men in England as like being, like really looking for, this is going to be great fun, we'll go save our country. And then they came to realize the horrors of war, but that, in fact, nobody looks at war that way anymore. That nobody looks at this as, oh, this is going to be great. It's, as some people said, it's old men sending young men off to die.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  You are entirely correct, but equally you could say, yes, in the run up to World War I, people were too gung ho about war. But then look at the run up to World War II. In the run up to World War II, we really needed to stand up to a regime that was led by Adolf Hitler. That was the last general war between all the great powers in the world, and we really needed to stand up to Adolf Hitler, to Nazi Germany, in large part because actually the Germans in World War II were very good at fighting. You know, on land, certainly, the Germans were better on land at fighting than the British or the French or the Americans.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  It's very easy for us to forget that. And if you are a country that does not believe that it can and should fight and fight effectively and fight to win, then you will be very easy prey for those who do not share your beliefs in peace.

• 30:22Mike Carruthers?

  So here is a really naive sounding question, but I think it's one people think about. So in World War I and World War II, we were at war with Germany and Japan, and even in the Revolutionary War, we were at war with England. And now we're all friends, we're all allies, we all get along. And I think the question is, well, why couldn't we have sat down and figured it out as we eventually did without the war part? Like, just sit down like grownups and figure it out. And obviously, you know, with someone like Hitler, that's probably not possible.

• 31:03Mike Carruthers?

  But it does seem that as civilization, I don't know, matures, that war seems so archaic, like so unnecessary.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  And I think you're absolutely right. So for example, take one of the most prominent sets of ideas that came around in the last fifteen, twenty years about war, which was the idea put out by Steven Pinker, that we're becoming increasingly rational, war is irrational, wars are decreasing, the arc of history is tending towards peace, so it's all going to be okay. I think he's probably right that wars are decreasing. He's not wrong, but unfortunately, he's dangerously incomplete. And then we saw that when Vladimir Putin decided to invade Ukraine, right? That didn't fit into his narrative. The problem is, even

• 31:55Speaker 02

  if wars are decreasing in frequency, that doesn't mean that wars can't break out, and when they do break out, we need to be able to fight effectively, otherwise, we will lose. And it's important to remember that the democracies today, if we don't use our brains, if we don't understand how humans fight well, and bear in mind that the human brain is always going to be the central weapon of war between human groups, if we don't do that, we could lose. So the democracies in May nineteen forty, Britain and France

• 32:31Speaker 02

  were facing the Germans in the Battle of France, and the Germans had fewer trained men, fewer tanks, fewer planes, fewer guns. But they had been thinking about how to harness things about our brain, like surprise, shock, skill, will, and daring. And unfortunately for us, that they cut through the French and British armies and defeated them within seven weeks.

• 33:03Mike Carruthers?

  I have often wondered, in Nazi Germany, when German soldiers were sent to invade other countries, what were they thinking? What had they been told to believe that gave them that will to fight? When this isn't their country, they're invading another country, this isn't yours.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  It's important to remember that when Hitler went to war, invaded Poland in September 1939, a lot of Germans did not, you know, ordinary members of the population did not want to go to war. But Hitler was in charge, it was an authoritarian state, and they went to war. People generally do fight. However we feel about that now in peacetime, we look forward and we think, oh, maybe we would choose differently. That isn't really how things pan out. Millions of people in the democracies thought that they would be pacifists. But actually, when war broke out, almost nobody in somewhere like Britain or America actually became conscientious objector.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  And of course, you weren't allowed to be a conscientious objector in somewhere like Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Russia.

• 34:18Mike Carruthers?

  So you advise the Pentagon, you would have some insight into this. One of the criticisms of war is that one of the reasons we have it is because of the military industrial complex. That war is good for business, so we have hawks in the government and outside the government pushing for conflicts because it's good for business. What about that?

• 34:43Speaker 02

  It's a great question, and it brings me to two points. The first thing is that humans are very varied. So yes, there are some people who are warmongers, and there are some people who, you know, would argue for peace. And there are lots of people who are in the middle. And I think in general, most people will defend their country, their homeland, their group, whatever it is, if they feel that they must. Now, in terms of a military industrial complex, so this brings me on to a really important point, which is about wisdom. So who was the main person who coined the phrase or popularized it was Dwight Eisenhower. Dwight Eisenhower is a US president, maybe he's fallen a bit out of fashion.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  But in my eyes, he's one of the really most inspiring US presidents. He was the military leader who oversaw the Allies during the Allied invasion on D-Day. And then he became president in the early 1950s. And for Eisenhower, and it was he who warned of the military industrial complex. He knew that the way that a country like America was going to be able to win something like the Cold War against a formidable competitor like the Soviet Union. He knew that it was going to require wisdom, not just being clever. Right, coming up with some clever, interesting, you know, out of the box thinking, but actually being wise.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Because there was no simple answer to winning. And the way the United States was going to win, or at least not lose, was preparing for the long haul. Which is another one of his phrases, which I think is really important. This is going to be generational, for example, what we're facing with China now. It's going to be the long haul, you have to thrive domestically. You have to push back where you can. And you have to stay true to yourself. And I think that this is a world in which, just as with Eisenhower, there are no simple answers. Because now, we could lose domestically through things like the

• 36:53Speaker 02

  military industrial complex taking too much money, or civil strife. We could lose in a conventional war, right, over somewhere like Taiwan against somebody like, a group like China. Or we could lose in a third way, which is that we could fight a nuclear war. Because whatever you do, however many people are dead on the other side, if you fight a nuclear war, you've lost in any meaningful sense. And so only with wiser decision making can we avoid all of these different ways of losing. And again, the most powerful thing we have for wiser decision making is the human brain and self-knowledge about ourselves as individuals and about ourselves as humanity.

• 37:38Mike Carruthers?

  But wise decision making requires wise decision makers. And you look at leaders of various countries around the world and you think, I don't think you can check that box for those people. They don't seem, they seem kooky sometimes.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  The majority of leaders are, you're entirely correct, not very wise. But if you look at World War II, Britain and the United States actually did have leaders who were wise. If you look at the early part of the Cold War, the United States did have leaders who were wise. Eisenhower, George C. Marshall, others like that. So if we just step back for a minute and think what wisdom is as opposed to just being clever. So it's a bit like if you know the Big Bang Theory. You know, the Big Bang Theory, they're super clever guys, if you've ever seen that comedy programme. But they always get into pickles because they come up with these clever plans, but they, you know, there's some obviously foreseeable problem where when they do their

• 38:39Speaker 02

  plan, you know, it runs up against some kind of obviously anticipated problem. And it's very much like that with wisdom. We can't just be clever, we need to be wise. So wisdom is seeing the bigger picture about ourselves in the world so that our chosen actions can help us live better. We're never going to be perfect, but we can be better. And I think that's the most we can hope for as humans.

• 39:06Mike Carruthers?

  But can war become outdated, obsolete? Could Steven Pinker be right that we can't just keep blowing each other up, especially with nuclear weapons, because then we blow ourselves out of existence?

• 39:23Speaker 02

  I mean, I hate to say it, but I mean, we can keep blowing each other up. Uh, and I think as the world is showing us uh today in, you know, Sudan or Gaza or Ukraine or uh tensions rising in East Asia. It's perfectly possible that we will continue uh uh people be blowing each other up. That said, that's only ever going to be part of um who we are. Can we uh avoid a nuclear war? I I hope that we can. We have thus far um since nuclear weapons uh were first used eighty, just over eighty years ago. So uh only, still only a handful of countries have nuclear weapons.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  So it is possible to limit even these most powerful and destructive weapons. Now, war will always change. So i- in military circles, they they will often say the nature of war is the same. Right? War is always going to be the same fundamentally because war is politically motivated violence between human groups. Okay, at scale. So it's not just a bar fight. It's, you know, at scale. It's a large conflict. Now, that basic nature to do with our brains and the societies that humans form, that is always going to be the same. But the character of war, how it pans out, that will always be different.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  And one of the things that gives me a lot of optimism is that actually we can train our soldiers to be more restrained, to be wiser. We can think through a lot of scenarios or problems like nuclear war so that we hopefully can avoid them.

• 41:06Mike Carruthers?

  Something I've never understood. We've had wars like Vietnam, Korea, where it didn't seem like the objective was to win the war. We were, and people would talk about how we were mired in Vietnam, that the United States, if they really wanted to, could have defeated North Vietnam seemingly without a whole lot of trouble. But it, winning the war didn't seem to be the objective. And and I guess I've never really understood why get in a war if you don't want to win it.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  That's a really great question. So of all of the counterinsurgencies, these are wars where you have a big state like America or Russia against an insurgency, guerrilla fighters. So the Americans fought in Vietnam, right, they fought against an insurgency. The Russians fought in Afghanistan, they fought against insurgency. The French fought in Vietnam before the Americans and then in Algeria. Now, in all four of those cases, the big power lost. The only really big counterinsurgency campaign that anybody won in the Cold War was the British, who won in Malaya in the 1950s, the early 1950s. And one of the reasons for that is that the British understood the political nature

• 42:25Speaker 02

  of what they were doing. So it's a famous saying, Karl von Clausewitz is probably the most famous philosopher of war. And one of his most famous quotes is essentially that, you know, war is the continuation of politics by other means. And what the British understood in Malaya and implemented better than the Americans or the French or the Russians was that they tried to use war as a tool to achieve their political goals, and they did that very effectively. And that's one of the key things about war. It's very difficult to use it effectively as a political tool, but if you can, then it can be very effective, as the British showed in Malaya in the early 1950s.

• 43:06Mike Carruthers?

  Well, that's an interesting insight to it. You see, I've always thought that one of the things about war is you want to get it over as soon as possible. You want to go in, fight your war and win and be done with it, not drag it on. And Vietnam seemed like it just kept dragging on and on and on, and to what end?

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Sometimes you need to change your mind. Richard Nixon was a man of talent and a man with huge flaws. But ultimately, Richard Nixon, he was willing to change his mind, and ultimately, the United States left. And changing your mind is important. This is another thing that I mentioned, the frontal pole, this region right at the front of the brain, that is really crucial for wiser decisions. And this is an area that I've researched, and I've researched changes of mind in the laboratory, and I've done work in China, and with China's top university, Peking University. And people differ in their ability to change their minds.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  They differ in their abilities to use new information and change when the world changes. But really, that is one of the things that makes you a truly wise decision maker. So Winston Churchill, for example, he was a man who famously perhaps changed his mind too much, but he was a man who changed his mind when he had to about things that were important. And that doesn't mean compromising on the things you really care about. And you know, as Winston Churchill certainly did not compromise on the things he cared about and steered the democracies in many ways through the most dangerous period that they went through during the 20th century.

• 44:50Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I don't remember the exact quote that somebody said war is old men sending young men off to die, but there's something about that, that, you know, if this war is so important to these leaders, let them go fight it and not send young people to their death.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  No, and I think you're absolutely right. Ultimately, I don't want my children to go off and fight a war. I think that would be a waste of their lives. But if we are not prepared to do that when we must, then we will be easy pickings for those who are prepared to do that. And for a long time, we lived in a world at the end of the Cold War, where the United States in particular, but the West more generally, had overwhelming military superiority.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  And we could basically do whatever we liked. We could have unrealistic ideas about the world and it didn't really matter. But we don't live in that world anymore. And if we aren't prepared to defend ourselves, then others will take advantage of us.

• 45:53Mike Carruthers?

  Remember the song, you know, give peace a chance, you know, well, you can only give peace a chance if everybody's willing to give peace a chance. But if you're the one who's going to lay down and say, let's be peaceful. And somebody else isn't, they're just going to run right over you and take what you got.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  This is a challenge that we face as societies, you know. Are we in the run up to World War One? Where we don't know that nobody really wants, the intentions were not really to go to war in any of the great powers and we ended up in war, right? They were all too tough and it ended up in a catastrophe. On the other hand, are we in the run up to World War Two? Where Hitler was going to go to war, whatever we did. And we should have been tougher with Hitler. And that would have saved a lot of pain and misery for literally tens of millions. So we can never really know about others' intentions. So you and I have very sophisticated machinery in our brains. Every listener does too. And that machinery, that neural machinery, that brain machinery is for working out others'

• 46:53Speaker 02

  intentions. Because intentions can often be life and death. And whilst we need that machinery to cooperate and collaborate. And that machinery enables humans to collaborate better than any other type of animal. Across a much wider range of circumstances than any other animal can. But it also is deeply involved in deception. Deceit, lying, and that is also part of what it is to be human.

• 47:24Mike Carruthers?

  Well, we started this conversation asking the question, is war part of human nature? And you'd hate to think so, but from listening to you talk, it kind of seems like it is. Nicholas Wright has been my guest. He's a neuroscientist at University College London, Georgetown, and the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, where he also advises the Pentagon Joint Staff. He's author of a book called Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and How War Shapes the Brain. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Nicholas, thank you. Thanks for talking about this.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Brilliant. Well, thank you very much. That was really fun. Great questions.

• 48:09Mike Carruthers?

  You've probably heard, or even felt, that carrying around a heavy purse or briefcase can leave you with back, neck, or shoulder pain. But how heavy is too heavy? Well, if you put that bag on a scale, if it weighs more than 10% of your body weight, consider rearranging things. See if there's anything in there you really don't need. Any more weight than 10% of your body weight should really be worn backpack style. And if you do opt for a backpack, keep the strap short so it sits high on your back. A backpack worn low changes your gait and will feel a lot heavier. Also, avoid carrying it slung over one shoulder, which kind of defeats

• 48:54Mike Carruthers?

  the whole purpose. And that is something you should know. And that ends this episode, but you know, there are hundreds of binge-worthy episodes of this podcast. I'll bet you haven't heard yet that you would really enjoy. I invite you to dig back into the archives on whatever platform you're listening on and listen to some other episodes. I think you'll be glad you did. I'm Mike Heruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 49:23Speaker 04

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• 49:51Speaker 05

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