Pod Insights How I Built This with Guy Raz Advice Line with Vicky Tsai of Tatcha About this episode Tatcha co-founder and former CEO Vicky Tsai joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early-stage founders. Plus, Vicky explains her decision to briefly step back into, and then out of again, the CEO role.
First we meet Jessica in Newport Beach, who’s wondering how to increase brand awareness for her handcrafted fine jewelry. Then Brittany in New York City, who’s looking to prioritize sales channels for her growing fem care brand. And Devon in Cleveland, who wants to generate buzz around the launch of her creative cake company.
Thank you to the founders of Petit Anjou, Beia Beauty, and Mugsy Bakes for being a part of our show.
If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298.
And be sure to listen to Tatcha’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/006733a5-5da4-47cd-9065-4bcf2bf4d79f/embed as told by Vicky on the show in 2020.
This episode was produced by Katherine Sypher with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo.
You can follow HIBT on X https://x.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis/ and sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/.
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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5:07 Guy Raz? Visit mobili fuels.com for details. Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with.
5:48 Guy Raz? You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected] . And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Vicky Tsai. She's the co-founder of Tatcha. It's a skincare company rooted in Japanese beauty rituals. Vicky, welcome back to How I Built This.
6:22 Speaker 01 Thank you. It's an honor.
6:24 Guy Raz? It's so great having you back. So today, we are going to talk to founders who are taking, you know, a lot of them are taking some big career moves to bring their, their business ideas to life. And we thought you would be the perfect person to give them advice because you, you started Tatcha after making this really big pivot in your career. You worked in corporate finance. You worked for Starbucks. But you kind of became disillusioned with that world after a while. Not Starbucks, but just kind of corporate life. It burned you out and you're getting dermatitis and you took a trip to Japan and you met a geisha and you started using skincare products that they had. And it just kind of changed your life and inspired you to, to build this company. And this was back in 2008.
7:08 Guy Raz? And you struggled for some time to build Tatcha. But of course, now it is a huge multimillion dollar company now owned by Unilever. Such an awesome story. We are going to put a link to it in the show description. But Vicky, before we get to, to our callers, I was hoping to ask you a couple of questions. At what point did you feel like you could jump fully into this? Because you went to business school. You got the brass ring jobs. You were on the path to sort of corporate success. And you come, you know, you came from a family that really emphasized success and achievement. I remember you talking about this. And what, at what point did you feel like, I don't, it doesn't matter. I just can't do this anymore. I've got to do this other thing.
7:52 Speaker 01 I didn't have an idea and then decided to quit my day job. I quit my day job without any safety net because I was just, I felt that corporate life was so soul crushing. And I just thought, if I continue doing this, there's a 100% chance I'll be unhappy. If I try something new, there's a 50% chance I'll be happy. And so I left with no plan and no idea.
8:18 Guy Raz? Yeah.
8:18 Speaker 01 I didn't think I was going to start a company. I just knew I couldn't keep doing what I was doing. And then. I stumbled upon Tatcha.
8:25 Guy Raz? That's awesome. One of the things I remembered after our interview in 2020 is that, and at the time, you had let you kind of stepped down as CEO. And then you actually came back and to lead Tatcha as CEO in 2021, a little bit like Howard Schultz, who's been back for the CEO three times. Can you talk a little bit about the decision, the original decision to step down and then the decision to come back?
8:53 Speaker 01 Yeah. I stepped down after we brought in private equity in 2018.
8:59 Guy Raz? Yeah.
9:00 Speaker 01 Because they recommended that we bring in a seasoned leadership team. And it really triggered this imposter syndrome in me that I had carried for my career. And I thought, I don't want to be the kind of founder that ends up limiting the potential of their business because of their own leadership limitations. So I stepped down and I welcomed with open arms a new leadership team. And then a couple of years later, Unilever asked me to come back. So 2021, in the midst of COVID and in the midst of API hate, we also did a turnaround. It was an honor to be able to step back in and it gave me the opportunity to lead in
9:44 Speaker 01 a different way that I never thought possible. And then at the end of that year, I actually put in place a new leadership team, including a new CEO. It was a first diverse leadership team in beauty at any scale. And so they lead the company now. I'm no longer CEO, but I'm proud and honored to continue to support them and be an advisor to the company.
10:08 Guy Raz? It's an awesome story because I remember we talked about it when you were on the show, you know, and, and, you know, you trusted these investors and they were, you know, basically doing what they thought was in the best interest of the company. But for you, and I think a lot of people feel this, and I do too. I mean, I think, you know, obviously I think women tend to experience this more than men, but I think lots of founders experience this, this feeling of like, okay, now we're really big, maybe I'm not the right person to do this. And it's a very natural feeling to have.
10:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:39 Guy Raz? But you sort of said to yourself, wait a minute, no, I can do this.
10:42 Speaker 01 Yeah. It forced me to be curious about where those ideas came from in the first place. Why had I believed that I didn't have what it took? Because I had the experience and I had the track record, the numbers were there. But I think I had internalized a lot of feedback over time. And when you're an entrepreneur, as you know, you get so many no's and so, so many people doubting you that you have to become your own hype machine in your head. And every day you have to be like, I can do it, I can do it. But some part for me crept in. And, and that, that little bit of leakage eventually was enough to overflow
11:25 Speaker 01 my sense of self-worth and self-confidence. And then I had to watch the company disintegrate for two years from my perspective. And that was what caused me to come back and say, hmm, I don't know why I doubted myself like that, but it's time to get to work. There's, there's not really time for doubt right now. And that's a bit of a luxury I don't have. So let's, let's finish what we started. And it was a joy, it was a joy.
11:53 Guy Raz? Yeah, yeah. You're, you're Steve Jobs moment, you know, coming back to, to lead the company or Howard Schultz moment. Um, Vicky, what do you say we take our, go ahead and take our first call?
12:03 Speaker 01 I can't wait.
12:04 Guy Raz? All right, let's do it. Hello, caller number one, please introduce yourself. Tell us where you are calling from and a little bit about your business.
12:12 Speaker 02 Hi, Guy. Hi, Vicky. Thank you so much for having me here.
12:15 Guy Raz? Hello.
12:16 Speaker 02 My name is Jessica Liu. I'm calling from Newport Beach, California, and I'm the founder of Petite Anjou. I design and handcraft demi-fine and fine jewelry with a playfully sculptural aesthetic.
12:28 Guy Raz? Amazing. Okay. And, and first of all, tell us a little bit about, about the business. Do you buy the jewelry from somewhere else? Do you make it? Do you, tell me about it?
12:39 Speaker 02 Uh, no, everything is handcrafted by myself. I'm a self-taught metalsmith. Um, I tend to gravitate towards making organic and flowy designs with a bit of texture. Um, but I also really struggle with sensitive skin. I know, Vicky, you can relate. Um, and so I made a vow to only work in precious metals. I don't use brass in my studio. So most of my pieces come in sterling silver or 18 karat gold vermeil. And I'm in the process of rolling out a fine jewelry collection as well.
13:05 Guy Raz? Okay, so you are a metalsmith, which is awesome. I mean, because you know, I think you think of metalsmithing, I think of like the 19th century, like a guy in a hammering away at a horseshoe. Do you have an art background, a design background? Is that where this this comes from?
13:19 Speaker 02 No, completely different. I actually come from the corporate world. I used to be an attorney. But I always had a creative streak and I've been listening to the show for ages. I was always so inspired by the female founders in particular. And so I wanted to create my own thing. And I read the story about this woman who made a jewelry business curating designs. And I thought I could do that, but I couldn't find designs that resonated with me. So I decided I also make my own, what I couldn't find out there. And so I taught myself, I watched YouTube videos, I bought all the books. And pretty much after my kids would go down for the night, I would stay up late at night teaching myself.
13:56 Guy Raz? I'm I'm like kind of blown away. I mean, you were a lawyer who taught yourself on YouTube. And now I'm looking at your website, Petty Anzhu, and these are really beautiful, complex designs. I mean, congrats on on the business. And what's your question for for me and Vicky today?
14:12 Speaker 02 So as you can probably imagine, jewelry is a super saturated industry. And so I'm wondering how I can increase visibility and brand awareness, especially coming as a brand that has higher price point products, where it's not always feasible to give out samples or, you know, do gifting to influencers or editors as part of a marketing strategy.
14:32 Guy Raz? And roughly, what what's the price ranges of your products?
14:35 Speaker 02 They start at around 195 and go up to about 1600.
14:39 Guy Raz? Right, because you're dealing with gold and silver. Okay, fair enough. All right, Vicky, let's let's see what we can do here. Jessica's got, she makes everything. They're beautiful products, handmade, high quality. But it's challenging, right? This is all direct to consumer, Jessica, right? You're not selling in stores. So first of all, any thoughts, Vicky, about her approach? What do you think?
15:00 Speaker 01 I I love what you do. I love the intention and the craftsmanship and the quality. I think your brand is exactly the kind of brand that people are looking for these days. They're sick of stuff that just falls off a factory line somewhere else in the world and that doesn't have a heart and a soul and a purpose for being. And I think people don't buy products these days. They join brands. If I were in your shoes, a couple of ideas. One is, I would let people into the craftsmanship piece of your of your work. You're not competing with someone who's buying stock jewelry, putting their brand name on it and selling it on their website. You are looking for a client that cares about craftsmanship and wants to know their maker.
15:42 Speaker 02 Yes.
15:43 Speaker 01 So I don't know if you're doing this already, but really allowing people to see the the work that goes into crafting your products from the design to the making. TikTok is a really great place for that. The other thing is inventory. Are each one or each of your pieces one of a kind? Or do you sort of make a little inventory of each?
16:05 Speaker 02 I do have an inventory of each, so there is, I do maintain stock of each design.
16:10 Speaker 01 Got it. So to just manage your overall capital outlay, one potential is to only make one of each design, show it to people, and then if they want it, then they get part of the drop and say, I'll make 10. So if you want on and you eventually scale from there. So just sort of shifting the product development cycle will help your capital cycle. And then in terms of gifting, I actually have the same problem. Our things are handmade in Japan. And so when we when we send people four pieces, it costs about the same, I'm guessing, as as one of your pieces. And so you can sample yourself out of business. We didn't do.
16:51 Speaker 01 Broad sampling the way that most beauty brands do. And we also did not do heavy celebrity sampling the way that most beauty brands do. Instead, we thought about how to turn our best clients into advocates and ambassadors for us because we found that they really loved gifting our products. And so I don't know if you have a really passionate group of clients already, but talking to them and asking them about how you can serve them more. And then, you know, what they're looking for that might be something that's giftable and let them become the people who, you know, get the word out for you.
17:33 Speaker 02 I love that because something I've really grown to appreciate as a small business owner is the sense of community and people really do buy into brands. That's what they're interested in and being part of a community and part of the experience. And so I do try to showcase the craftsmanship on my Instagram page. But you're right, I do think that I could do more of that, maybe even on the website. That's, that's actually a great idea to showcase that more.
17:56 Speaker 01 I think it's all TikTok.
17:58 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:58 Guy Raz? Yeah, if you go to the about page on, on your website, it's awesome. You've got these photos of you in the, in the shop and with a soldering iron or whatever it is. And, and they, you know, basically melting down metal. It's so cool. And I think about, do you make videos of you making jewelry?
18:16 Speaker 02 I do. I took the best of my ability with my iPhone. It's not great cinematography, but I do try to capture the process because I think people love to see where their pieces are coming from. You know, like you said, Vicky, it's not off the, off of a conveyor belt. You know, each piece is handcrafted and I think people want to see their piece being made right in front of them.
18:36 Guy Raz? How are you, how have you tried to build awareness so far?
18:40 Speaker 02 So actually, when I first started, I did hire a PR agency. I used them for a few months before quickly realizing that it wasn't going to be economically viable as a startup. So I do my own PR at this point. I've Reach out to editors. I'm part of an affiliate link program. And so I've landed a few editorial mentions and TV spots. But you know, it's like I mentioned, it's tricky because I can't give them samples to try in person. So it's kind of like, here's my jewelry. You know, it's great. Just trust me on it. Also, I've been trying to do more in-person shows. I love live events because it lets me meet my audience and see what they gravitate towards. It's almost like market research for me, too.
19:23 Speaker 02 But the trick with that, the tricky part has been that a lot of my local events tend to be like craft shows that are at a lower price point. And so I'm not sure if my audience is really there shopping for high-end jewelry. So it's kind of been a balancing act navigating that.
19:39 Guy Raz? Jessica, did you hear, we did an episode a few years back with an MM LaFleur, with Sarah LaFleur, who founded this apparel brand. And essentially, the idea in her mind, because Sarah came from, you know, sort of a business background, was to make clothing, you know, sort of a wardrobe, a uniform. So women wouldn't have to like spend hours every morning trying to figure out what to wear. But it was a clothing design for professional women. It's an amazing brand. I found out about it like I often do for my wife, who would go and buy their clothing. And I feel like there's something to that idea with what you're doing. And I mean, given your background as a lawyer and what you are creating,
20:21 Guy Raz? I wonder whether there's a way to kind of tap into, you know, this sort of networks of professional women who are going to the office. And because the pieces that you create are very timeless and very, they're just very classic. And so I don't know, have you explored that at all?
20:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Um, you know, I think my pieces are timeless and elegant, and my audience is looking for something like that, but they want something that's unique and different. You know, my audience is not interested in blending in with everyone else. And like you mentioned, they are, they're very professional, they're accomplished, they're strong women. And so they are looking for something that's going to make a statement that they can wear every day, be comfortable in. So that is something that, that is, you know, that I would love to pursue further, kind of promoting that angle of something that you can live in every day.
21:19 Speaker 01 Guy makes a really great point. You, because of your craftsmanship, you're not looking for a hundred thousand clients yet. You want like a thousand great ones. And so being clear on who your bullseye is, both demographically and psychographically, will help you stay super, super focused. I think you're right, trunk shows will be better for you than craft shows. I wonder whether, to Guy's point, whether you could partner with a complementary clothing brand or bag brand where you can help each other, where your ethos is the same, and then you can sort of share lists and email lists with each other, do trunk shows together.
21:58 Speaker 02 I love that. And that's actually something that's been suggested to me before, the collaborations, because you share each other's audiences as well. And that's something I'm looking forward to pursuing, for sure.
22:09 Guy Raz? Congrats on what you're building, Jessica. It's so cool. I mean, jumping out of the corporate world as a lawyer and going into something totally creative is really courageous. And, and I, we, I really can't wait to see what you do with this.
22:27 Speaker 01 I agree. I'll be buying everything and sharing with my friends. So keep going, keep going.
22:32 Speaker 02 I appreciate it. Thank you so much. I'm big fans of both of you.
22:35 Guy Raz? Thanks, Jessica.
22:36 Speaker 01 Bye.
22:37 Guy Raz? I can't believe that she didn't know how to do this until 2020. I mean, I remember during COVID, because I remember during that time just thinking, there are going to be so many businesses that come out of this moment, because people are just like, okay, this is the sign from the gods. Like, this is the time for me to just do the thing that I, I was too scared to do.
23:00 Speaker 01 Mm hmm. I love talented people. Incredible.
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26:34 Guy Raz? Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with Vicky Tsai. So, Vicky, let's get right into it and take another call. Let's do it. Welcome to the Advice Line. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
26:49 Speaker 04 Hi, Vicky. Hi, Guy. Thank you so much for having me. So excited to meet you. And I'm calling in from New York City right now. I'm the founder and CEO of Bea. Bea is premium vegan skincare that addresses intimate concerns. So think sweat, odor, body blemishes that affect our confidence.
27:09 Guy Raz? Wow, okay. And tell us a little bit more about how you started this.
27:16 Speaker 04 So I actually wrote in my second grade journal that one day I was going to have-
27:19 Guy Raz? Second grade?
27:20 Speaker 04 Second grade. I wrote in my journal that I was going to have a beauty company one day. And at 16 years old, I asked my grandma for an investment of, I think, $500, which was a lot of money. And I started BeLo Cosmetics, which was a mascara brand. And I very quickly learned how hard it is to start a beauty business.
27:44 Guy Raz? Wait, when did you start BeLo Cosmetics? How old were you?
27:46 Speaker 04 I was 16, because I didn't have business courses in high school. So I was like, I think I love business, but I have no idea, like, will I actually like it?
27:55 Guy Raz? A great name, Beeloke Mascara, your name, it's awesome. And, and did you make mascara? Did you sell it?
28:04 Speaker 04 I did. So I, it's hilarious to look at my emails with this contract manufacturer. I was like, I would love to meet with you. I would love to share my vision with you. And he took me so seriously. I think I ordered, I forget what the minimum was. I think it was 2,500 mascaras. It had the logo on it.
28:22 Guy Raz? Awesome.
28:23 Speaker 04 And it was amazing, but we still probably have like 10 cases, cases of mascaras at my parents' house to this day.
28:32 Guy Raz? I can't believe you were 16 to do this. Okay, so obviously you were on a mission from a young age to start a beauty brand. And how did you get, I mean, tell me a little bit about, about Bea. How did, how did that idea come about?
28:47 Speaker 04 So I ended up graduating from Babson College and I had a full-time offer with L'Oréal. But again, I wrote in my second grade journal that I was gonna have my own company. And so I was like, wait a minute, I gotta do my own thing, but where's the white space in the product world of beauty? Because it's so saturated. And I honestly couldn't come up with a good enough idea. And that's when Drybar and a lot of these beauty services were popping up. And so I was like, if I don't know where the white space is, the next best thing is creating a service company where I work with real women to understand their beauty pain points. So then I could build this product business. So I ended up turning down L'Oréal and starting my first company, Butini.
29:29 Speaker 04 And so what was fascinating is we really do specialize in weddings and events. And so they would come in and be like, listen, I'm getting married in August. I sweat like crazy. Is my makeup gonna melt off? Or like, when I sweat, I smell. I'm gonna be hugging my guests, let alone let's talk about my wedding night.
29:45 Guy Raz? Yeah.
29:46 Speaker 04 What do you do? And I was like, wait, that's kinda, I've never heard these questions. I guess it's a beauty question, but I honestly have these insecurities of like smelling and being around people. And I just thought that was a me thing. And so that's what I was like, wait a minute. Well, fast forward pandemic, there were no weddings, there were no events. So there was no business for Butini. So rather than just sitting around, I realized it was my perfect opportunity to start Bea. And our whole philosophy is like taking moments for yourself. So whether it's like, Taking deep breaths and just rehydrating your face and body, or, you know, going into the bathroom and refreshing so you feel a little bit more confident. That's like the whole ethos of the brand.
30:27 Guy Raz? That's so awesome. I'm, I'm thinking about how much I'm smell, I smell right now because I took a run. And before this interview, and I'm so happy that I'm in a separate studio from you because I would need Bea right now.
30:39 Speaker 04 I wish I could teleport them to you right now.
30:43 Guy Raz? And what, what's your question for us today?
30:46 Speaker 04 So my question is, if you were building a skincare brand, say Tatcha, in 2024, what would be like the top three things that you would be focusing on right now? Knowing that, you know, you want to be on QVC, you want to land a retailer like Sephora? Like what, there's so many things to do as a founder. What would be your top three areas of focus?
31:11 Guy Raz? All right, Vicky. Yeah, let's start with you.
31:15 Speaker 01 Well, I really love that you're focusing on femcare because this is a really hot new area. So when you go to a category that's growing, you get to sort of ride the wave up. And, and I, I get tapped a lot for advice or investment in growing femcare brands. So this is of the moment. So good job on timing.
31:36 Speaker 01 So to your question about how to break through these days, we were talking in the last one about how people don't buy products now, they join brands. So your point of difference will not just be your products and your formulary promise, but your intentions. Why do you exist? When you break through, particularly in social media, then those retailers come to you. So you can pitch Sephora all day long, but they get pitched all day long. What you really want is for them to come to you. And they're going to come to you when you break through with your clients. So I would almost say, don't worry about the retailers, you know, build it and they will come. Just focus on your client and make sure she understands why, why she needs this, why to believe in you and why you care so much about her.
32:19 Speaker 04 Oh, that's really great advice. I love that. And honestly, we've had a few dream retailer like reach out and it's interesting because you can get into a retailer and that's great, but that's when the hard work I found out happens, right? Like if people don't know about your brand and don't understand your mission, it's not going to succeed in store. So I think that's like, that's very valuable insight for me to really implement.
32:46 Guy Raz? Brittany, can you talk a little bit about your sales right now? Where you guys are at?
32:50 Speaker 04 So we're about, we should be ending this year about a million. And so we've had some great beauty, subscription boxes that have, we've gotten a big deal with that. We were named, yeah, like a top 25 indie beauty from CEW, which is a beauty professional organization. So it's still small, but I'm self-funding. So just like Vicki, just really make being very mindful because my like life mission is to empower women to feel confident in their own skin. And I want to be able to figure out those pain points and that storytelling that resonates with people before we think about investment and whatnot.
33:29 Guy Raz? And how many people do you have working with you now?
33:31 Speaker 04 So it's myself and one full-time employee, one part-time, and then we have a handful of freelancers on retainer. Yeah.
33:41 Guy Raz? Right. You know, one of the cool things about this product is, as you say, it's an opportunity to show people how to use it. I think of two brands we've had on the show in the past. One is Dollar Shave Club, one is Liquid Death. And these brands, what they did early on, when they had no money, no budgets, was to put like a thousand, two thousand, three thousand bucks into making a very low budget, low quality, but very funny video that would go, that would eventually go viral. You can imagine, I can imagine you or somebody putting something like that together around, I mean, you've got, you know, these wipes,
34:26 Guy Raz? for example, to refresh wipes, or, you know, Icy Body and Intimacy Serum, like there are lots of fun things you could do with, with the products you have. And so I wonder whether, whether you've, you've thought about doing something like that, trying to create like a low budget video. That's fun and funny in that sort of Dollar Shave Club way.
34:47 Speaker 04 Would you say like just do one where you're really storytelling and thinking it through versus let's make a TikTok and see what sticks?
34:55 Guy Raz? I try, I try both, but I would try to make them funny if you can because you're talking about your story about talking to people getting ready for weddings and you're thinking, wait, I'd be freaked out about if I smell, not if my, my makeup was running, you know? And I feel like smell and scent is so funny and it's, we all smell, human beings smell. Like there's no way around it. There's no human that does not smell. I feel like there's a lot of fun around that, that idea.
35:24 Speaker 04 I love that. And I think, well, my personal need for these wipes was because I was dating in New York City and you're at a hot sweaty bar and then maybe, you know, you meet someone and then I would be so self-conscious about my smell. So I do thi- I love that idea of like storyboarding, something that's really funny and hopefully relatable, um, to be able to resonate in like a lighthearted way, um, but hopefully get some reality behind it.
35:50 Speaker 01 I love Guy's idea and the fact that this started from your dating moments. It would be fun to partner with like a Tinder or, I don't know, what do people use these days? Bumble, Coffee Meets Bagel. I don't know any of these anymore. You could put together like a little kit called like, In Case It Goes Well, and you know, just sort of do a co-marketing event to try to, to try to get into that kind of audience. But I would try to, first of all, a million dollars on that small of a team is amazing. Congratulations. The first million's the hardest by far. I thought the first million was harder than the first hundred million.
36:25 Speaker 04 Really? No way.
36:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, I really do. I really, really do. So, um, but then when you, it comes to a retailer, they'll throw anything against the wall, but if you don't climb rank very quickly, you're out. And then, then it's like a stain. It's like a scarlet letter A. Then you can't raise money. Then you can't get other. So I would really try to get the fire and the buzz going before you go to a retailer because there's also fixed costs, CapEx that goes with going into retail. Um, and in an ideal world, you're on fire, they come to you. They take a few items, they put them on an indie wall and they fly off the shelf. Then, then the party starts.
37:05 Speaker 04 And would you say that QVC is considered a retailer? Or would you say that's also part of like that brand awareness build? Because you get to storytell.
37:14 Speaker 01 QVC is interesting because they are, if I remember correctly, they're a consignment model. And you have to build a lot of inventory to, to test it out. And if it doesn't sell through, you own it.
37:29 Speaker 01 But you have to repack it at a cost of $4 to $5 per kit in order to even be able to resell it. You also have to look at, different retailers have different customer bases with different return profiles. And so if on a successful run, 50% of your stuff gets returned. And that's, that's stuff that you trash. You have to look at your margins. So I would say some retailers, they're great for awareness when you can handle that level of risk.
38:00 Speaker 04 And as a self-funded business, that's probably not what we can afford to do at this point. So I agree with you that maybe, like, I think, Guy, what you're saying is like build up, like the storytelling in a really fun, relatable way.
38:14 Guy Raz? And you are the perfect person to do this. So you got me from the eighth, second grade.
38:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, I, I agree with Guy. We just need you all over TikTok.
38:22 Guy Raz? Yeah, it's awesome. It's awesome. The brand is called Bea. Brittany Lowe, congrats. Good luck. We're going to be, we're cheering you on and we'll be following up.
38:32 Speaker 04 Thank you so much for your advice. Can't wait. And I'll be manifesting Bea being next to Tatcha and Sephora one day. So thank you so much.
38:41 Speaker 01 Love it.
38:43 Guy Raz? Thank you. Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Raz and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab.
39:08 Guy Raz? Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and my guest today is Vicky Tsai. She's the co-founder and former CEO of skincare brand Tatcha. Vicky, we are down to our last caller now. And hopefully, hopefully, I mean, it's, you know, I was thinking, and I said this, which is during the pandemic, I really, I was like, there are going to be so many businesses that come out of this. And now I'm thinking with Advice Line, like who, you know, we might be talking to some of these people on our show, like we interviewed you in the next couple of years, like there might be a billion dollar business here.
39:44 Speaker 01 I hope there is because these are great entrepreneurs with great ideas.
39:48 Guy Raz? I hope so too. All right, let's take our last caller. Hello, welcome to the Advice Line. You are on with me and Vicky Tsai. Hello, please introduce yourself. Tell us where you're calling from and a little bit about your business.
39:59 Speaker 05 Hi, Guy. Hi, Vicky. Thank you so, so much for having me.
40:03 Guy Raz? Hello.
40:04 Speaker 05 My name is Devin Kleimer. I am calling in from Cleveland, Ohio, and I am the co-founder of Mugsy Bakes. We make single-serve gluten-free mug cake mixes designed to spark dessert joy. No oven required.
40:21 Guy Raz? No oven required. Oh, so not even a microwave oven?
40:24 Speaker 05 A microwave, but no like real oven.
40:27 Guy Raz? Right. Yeah. And these are, this is like mug cakes, right? You see these things on Instagram. So, but this was, this is specifically like a packet, like a hot cocoa type packet that you just pour into a mug and add water and stick it in the microwave?
40:40 Speaker 05 Exactly right. So, we like to say that making a Mugsy is as easy as one, two, three. You literally just add in the wet ingredients, pour in the Mugsy dry ingredients, mix it up and pop it in the microwave and you're done.
40:52 Guy Raz? And then you get a cake in a mug?
40:55 Speaker 05 Exactly right. It's a beautiful thing. Uh huh, and dairy free too, actually.
40:59 Guy Raz? And dairy free, wow.
41:01 Speaker 05 Yeah.
41:01 Guy Raz? Um, tell me about how, how, how this started? Is this, were you, are you in the food business?
41:08 Speaker 05 No, uh, not at all, and neither is my co-founder. We are actually both healthcare providers and professionals. I'm a clinical speech pathologist. And my co-founder Nina is an occupational therapist. And that's actually how we met, is working in a hospital system together. And, you know, we watched as a lot of our patients, you know, struggled with, with chronic illness and often due to, you know, a broken food system. And so food was just very much so a part of our day in and day out. And ultimately, you know, it is that that inspired us to create our Better For You,
41:49 Speaker 05 uh, but super, you know, vibrant celebratory baking mix brand.
41:55 Guy Raz? How did you guys, um, decide to come up with it? Like, what, tell me the story. Were you sitting down in like the cafeteria at the, at the, whatever, the hospital, wherever you guys work, and like, let's make mud cakes?
42:05 Speaker 05 You know what? At the time, when we, you know, kind of went in on this together, we were, actually both had our own private practices. And so we would do a lot of co-working together. We would meet at coffee shops and, and talk. And I am a very avid listener of How I Built This. And I just, I truly am. And, and really, you know, just after listening to, you know, so many of the episodes, and I relate to you, Vicky, as well, you know, just with making a pivot and doing something different and feeling like I am doing something that, you know, is really adding to my happiness is something I had just been thinking about.
42:45 Speaker 05 So I am, have been making mud cake mixes myself for, for years. And now that I have children too, they've become, they've become a staple in our household. And I just got sick of pooling all the ingredients and leaving my kitchen a mess for something that's so small. Like, why should this be so complicated and messy? And so I started talking to Nina, uh, about this idea. And she's like, oh my gosh, I love this. Uh, and, and the rest is history. We just jumped in together.
43:16 Guy Raz? And just to clarify, do you sell them, it just comes in a box, like a hot cocoa packet, where you would, with individual envelopes inside?
43:26 Speaker 05 So we do stand-up pouches. They are single-serve stand-up pouches. So think of almost like, you know, a pancake mix pouch, but smaller. And so it stands up on its own. And we use a recyclable one as well.
43:40 Guy Raz? And do you use sugar or sugar substitutes?
43:43 Speaker 05 So we use organic sugars, organic cane and coconut sugar. And, and, you know, really priding ourselves on, you know, the high-quality ingredients that we are, are using is, is really important to us for sure, especially, you know, given our healthcare background.
44:01 Guy Raz? Cool. All right. And, and what's your question for us today?
44:04 Speaker 05 Yes. So my question is, we are currently pre-launch. You know, we're kind of soft-launching our minimum viable product at the moment locally in, in markets and shops.
44:16 Guy Raz? In Cleveland.
44:17 Speaker 05 In Cleveland, correct. Yes. And we will soon be launching direct to consumer. We are very close to having our finalized packaging ready. So my question is, what would be your top tip for a new brand, you know, looking to generate buzz and more importantly, build a community when we have essentially, you know, no following or a very little following?
44:42 Guy Raz? Hmm. Yeah. Vicki, your thoughts?
44:46 Speaker 01 I love how everybody who's been on has such a pure and uplifting intention. And their products and their brands are expressions of how they'd like to make the world a little bit more beautiful, a little bit more confident, a little bit more joyful. I think we need so many more businesses like this. So, yes. What do you think the use case is for your customers to want to purchase this? There's the health component, but... Like there's it's something to do with your kids? Is it something you use at parties? Is it a snack? What is it?
45:18 Speaker 05 Yes, so really it's the convenience factor that we are hypothesizing will be, you know, a big draw and it's meant to just serve as that, you know, simple pleasure, you know, that moment of of joy after a long day. You know, I enjoy mine after I've gotten my kids to bed. And, you know, while my husband is doing the dishes or cleaning up the toys. But certainly too, you know, we envision kids perhaps, you know, with a gluten allergy, going to a birthday party and being able to have something that they can eat as well. So it can certainly serve multiple purposes. And also just for us being allied health professionals, we think this would be a wonderful product as well for for senior citizens
46:01 Speaker 05 who maybe can no longer cook like they used to. But really, it's the convenience, the ease factor to it that we think is is, you know, a big part of our value proposition.
46:13 Speaker 01 For when you absolutely need cake, which I love.
46:16 Guy Raz? Yeah.
46:17 Speaker 01 I feel like I need cake everything.
46:19 Speaker 05 Yes, yes.
46:20 Guy Raz? Did you do you remember? I I think it still exists. It must still exist. I just haven't made it in so long. But one of my great pleasures as a child was when my parents would come home with a Jiffy Pop pan and you would take the thing off and put it on the stove top and shake it and then that big foil would just blow up. And then you'd rip it open. You'd have popcorn. Did you ever do that?
46:43 Speaker 05 Yes, and it was so fun. I remember it being like such a fun thing to do with my parents and my siblings. And we're going after the same, the same type of thing with Mugsy.
46:54 Guy Raz? But you know where I'm going with this now, which is, is there a world where there's like a microwave safe? I don't know, maybe disposable or recyclable mug that you could sell it in. So then you just pop it in and it's like the Jiffy Pop of cakes.
47:09 Speaker 05 Yes, I love that. And that actually is, you know, something we we toyed with at the very beginning. But I love that you brought that up because that does, you know, certainly add to the experience.
47:24 Guy Raz? Yeah, it can even be a reusable mug. Maybe you just do like a limited series and you sell them at gift shops. And the mug says something like, Dad is the best. I don't know. I'm just trying to think of a lame sort of mug thing. But you know, everybody, so, so that could be kind of a cool, cool thing to try.
47:42 Speaker 05 I love that.
47:43 Guy Raz? Who do you imagine? I think this is another version of the question Vicky asked, which is, who do you imagine using this? Like you mentioned, senior citizens, but, but like, at the end of the day, there is going to be a core type of user. It's going to be kids. It's going to be, you know, sort of women between the ages of 20 and 30. It's, it's going to be, there's going to be a certain type of user. So in your mind, who do you envision buying this product?
48:08 Speaker 05 Yes. Yes. So we are really envisioning it being perfect for, you know, that modern millennial consumer, mostly female, you know, of women with really bustling personal, professional lives, who are really going after that convenience factor, you know, whether they're preparing it for their kids or even for themselves, you know, because she's tired. She, you know, has a lot on her plate and, and at the end of the day, doesn't even want to be mixing up a cake out of a, you know, traditional box mix. So that's really our target that we're going after.
48:47 Guy Raz? Vicky, I know that Devon's question was about how to build buzz. I think, and I'd be curious to get your take on this. I think that she's, she's got to, instead of thinking, building buzz sort of nationally, she's really got to build buzz in Cleveland first. And, and I feel like this is the perfect opportunity to start really showing people how this works. Literally have a microwave oven at a farmer's market and just make these, like, like, and just sort of start that way. I don't, what do you think?
49:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm getting my head around it because I've never made cake in a mug before, but I do love cake.
49:25 Speaker 01 So food operates on very low margins and it's low price point. And so you, in time, the goal, unless you wanted to stay a small business, and I shouldn't assume. Do you have dreams for this to become a billion dollar business? Or is it a jewel of a business that you want to create?
49:43 Speaker 05 Yes, we have big dreams. You know, we really want to take this as big as we can. Yeah.
49:50 Speaker 01 So your end goal is grocery distribution. And then what you have to do is reverse engineer a strategy to get invited into grocery distribution. I think convenience is definitely one of your main selling points. But I think your point of difference is probably additionally the form factor and the health piece of it. Because you're both healthcare workers. So I think, Guy, you're right. This is one of those situations where you throw spaghetti at the wall.
50:22 Speaker 01 Whether it's food fairs and farmers markets for local buzz, as well as social media content that shows your intention and your thoughtfulness behind the ingredients. On your own website, that's where you'd want to build the business first. And these are lightweight and easy to ship. So you might even want to create like a gifting program online. I'm going back to Guy's idea about the mugs. And my original question about occasions, if you have birthday kits or...
50:57 Speaker 05 I love that.
50:58 Guy Raz? Yeah.
50:58 Speaker 01 I almost want you to do something like really unexpected too. Like, "Sorry, you had a bad day at work. Sorry, your boss sucks. Sorry about your celiac." You know, like, things that that will kind of cut through.
51:10 Speaker 05 I love...
51:11 Speaker 01 Sorry, he dumped you.
51:12 Guy Raz? Yeah, I love that. Or like, or like, make your own mug cake birthday party packet. Like, where everybody gets their own thing and they can make their own cake. And then you'd have like a squeezy little tube of frosting that you could frost it with.
51:28 Speaker 05 I love this. And that is just getting my mind buzzing. And those are wonderful recommendations. So thank you for that.
51:37 Guy Raz? Do you know what I've become obsessed with on social media? For some reason, I get fed these videos of like bread in an oven baking. Basically, you're looking at inside of an oven, like through the glass, and you just see the bread like it goes in, you know, the dough. And then you just see it grow, grow, grow into this beautiful baguette or croissant. And I could just watch those all day with like beautiful, you know, like the music from Amelie behind it or something, you know? It's just eh. And so I can imagine just like the sound of like two, like a hand like ripping open the packet, pouring it in the mug, putting in the whatever it is, is it water and butter? I don't know. And then putting in the microwave and then just watching it grow into this like pop over cake.
52:22 Speaker 05 Yes, I love that. And I think that's definitely an avenue we will go down. And I know, you know, myself and Nina included, we're ready to get more comfortable on social media. Because truthfully, that's an area that I, you know, don't have a ton of experience in. But I love that idea of getting creative with our videos and really showing, you know, not only what this product is, but how you could use it, how you can make it fun and different and unique to you. So, thank you.
52:54 Guy Raz? Devon Kleimer, the brand is called Mugsy Bakes. Good luck. Congrats on the launch.
53:00 Speaker 05 Thank you.
53:01 Speaker 01 Now I want some Mugsy. Now I feel like I need a cake in a mug right now.
53:07 Speaker 05 Yes, thank you both so much. Thank you, Vicky. Thank you, Guy. This was truly amazing. Thank you.
53:16 Guy Raz? Yeah, you can make cake in a mug. You didn't know.
53:20 Speaker 01 I feel like I haven't even lived.
53:23 Guy Raz? Vicky, before I let you go, can you? I'm curious, you know, now with everything in the rearview mirror, you know, and having built what you built and knowing what you know, what do you think that, what do you wish you had known in 2008? When you were starting your business that you think might have been helpful for you to know or to be aware of?
53:46 Speaker 01 In 2008?
53:51 Speaker 01 2008. I'm trying to put myself back in that spot.
53:54 Guy Raz? Yeah.
53:55 Speaker 01 If I could do anything over again, if I could sit down with my younger self, I would say the entrepreneurial journey is so thrilling, but so intensely difficult. Don't make it harder on yourself by carrying around self doubt. It's like carrying around a backpack full of boulders. It just makes everything harder and it's unnecessary. And it gets a lot more fun if you let go of the idea of can I do it? And you just say, I will do it.
54:32 Guy Raz? Awesome. Vicky, thank you so much.
54:34 Speaker 01 Thank you, Guy. I can't wait to see you and have cake in a mug.
54:36 Guy Raz? You will.
54:37 Speaker 01 I'll be wearing fabulous jewelry and I'll be smelling good.
54:42 Guy Raz? That's Vicky Tsai, co-founder and former CEO Tatcha. And by the way, if you haven't heard Vicky's original How I Built This episode, you have to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description. And here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.
54:58 Speaker 01 We ran out of money over and over and over again. I couldn't afford a salary. My partner couldn't afford a salary. I couldn't afford rent anymore. And my parents had bought a place near the airport at that point, and they let me move into there. And we had this really, really incredible high end clientele. And I was, I was working on my mom's garage.
55:24 Guy Raz? Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyraz.com. Each week it's packed with tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own observations and experiences interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs ever. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues or questions you'd like help with. And hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there.
56:09 Guy Raz? And we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Catherine Seifer, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Sina LaFredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini, Devin Schwartz, Elaine Coats, J.C. Howard, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.
Previous Graduate Hotels: Ben Weprin Next Lily’s Sweets: Cynthia Tice Page updated October 26, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
