#1531 David McIntosh | Insider Reveals What Trump Really Thinks of Bitcoin

David McIntosh is the President of “The Club For Growth” and the Co-Founder of The Federalist Society. In this conversation we talk about bitcoin, stablecoins, what is going on inside the US government, taxes DOGE, tariffs, and much more. ========================BitcoinIRA: Buy, sell, and swap 75+ cryptocurrencies in your retirement account. Take 3 minutes to open your account & get connected to a team of IRA specialists that will guide you through every step of the process. Go to https://bitcoinira.com/pomp/ to earn up to $500 in rewards.========================Core is the leading Bitcoin scaling solution, enabling you to lock in yield by locking up your Bitcoin. Simply lock it on the Bitcoin blockchain to secure the Core network, and get rewards. No bridging. No lending. Just holding. Still your keys. Still your coins. Now your yield. Start at stake.coredao.org/pomp.========================Xapo Bank, the world’s first fully licensed Bitcoin-enabled bank, offers military-grade security with an unmatched blend of physical and digital security, as well as pioneering regulatory oversight, so your funds are always protected. Beyond secure storage, they enable you to grow and use your Bitcoin. Earn daily interest in Bitcoin, spend with zero FX fees using a global card, and make instant payments via the Lightning Network for unrivalled access and convenience. Visit https://www.xapobank.com/pomp to join.=======================Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/=======================View 10k+ open startup jobs:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone. This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. What's going on guys? We've got an amazing episode with you today. Today we have David McIntosh. He is the president for the Club of Growth and he's the co-founder of the Federal Society. David is one of the most powerful and influential people in all of politics. He's one of the largest directors of money that goes into politicians behind their campaigns

• 0:47Anthony Pompliano?

  and helps educate them on the various topics that they end up voting on. David is somebody who's all about free markets, all about private individuals and their right to all of the things that America is built on, and he happens to be a big Bitcoiner. And this conversation outlines not only what his thoughts on Bitcoin are, but what's going inside the US government, what's happening with Bitcoin, crypto, taxes, Doge, tariffs, and much, much more. I really hope that you guys enjoy this conversation. I always learn something from David and this conversation is no different. Here's my latest episode with David McIntosh.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:43Speaker 02

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• 2:11Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:39Anthony Pompliano?

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• 4:24Anthony Pompliano?

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• 5:51Anthony Pompliano?

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• 5:57Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, David, I thought a great place to start this conversation is, everyone knows politicians are out there, they have policies, but I don't think people quite understand how much time, money, and effort in Washington DC, both from donors and from a lot of the strategists, is going into Bitcoin and crypto policy right now.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:14Anthony Pompliano?

  It seems like the Bitcoin Strategic Reserve was a shot heard around the world. Talk a little bit as to how is the DC circle talking about Bitcoin right now? And what do they want to happen with the asset?

• 6:28Speaker 03

  So you're absolutely right. There's a lot of energy there. You've got, prior to this in the Biden administration, Bitcoin was and crypto were bad words, right? Nobody wanted to acknowledge it. Most members of Congress didn't understand it. Our group, Club for Growth, interviews about 300 candidates a year. And that's where you start. You find out that more than half of them didn't know what it was, didn't understand it, they heard of it. And a few understood, understood why it was a value to growth in the economy, but also, and Bitcoin in particular, a mechanism to ensure freedom for individuals to be able

• 7:09Speaker 03

  to control their own resources and, and be free of government interference if the government didn't agree with them. And those are the ones that we got behind and helped get elected. But now with Trump endorsing it in the election, coming out really strong, setting up the Crypto Council, with David Sacks and Bo Hines, who I saw on your podcast, that Washington is a buzz, because the White House is now squarely behind this. They're undoing the bad Biden regulations, and they're pushing Congress to pass bills that go even further. You know, the Bitcoin reserve, Trump can set that up somewhat by moving things around

• 7:54Speaker 03

  in the executive branch, but to really fund it, it'll take some legislation passed out of Congress. Same thing with stable coins. You've got stable coins in the marketplace now, but if Congress passes a bill saying these are okay, then that's going to flourish as a means of transaction. And then, for a lot of folks in the crypto space, the market structure bill is really important. And what that does is solidifies the deregulation of crypto, so that it can be, you can have innovation, people can develop new products, and the marketplace is secure in knowing that there's enough oversight so people don't get ripped off, but it's not a heavy hand of government trying to shut it down.

• 8:38Speaker 03

  So it's a great time for Bitcoin and crypto generally in Washington. I would say two thirds of the people don't really get it, don't know what it's about still. But we work pretty hard at educating people what the issues are. You probably heard about this with Elizabeth Warren attacking Bitcoin because she alleged it was used for terrorists and crime. And we put together, and I run a bipartisan group. So Club for Growth is very strong on the Republican side. We're the largest political group for Republicans outside of the party. And I teamed up with a moderate pro-growth Democrat group that called the Moderates.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  And together, we formed a bipartisan blockchain innovation project, or BIP. And we assembled six experts who came out of the CIA, the Treasury Department, the FBI, the NSA. And they had dealt with Bitcoin and the use in international terrorism and other things, and testified to members in Congress. We actually prefer if you use Bitcoin because terrorists can be tracked. Whereas if you give them a truckload of cash, you can't track that. So like Lindsey Graham had been listening to Elizabeth Warren,

• 10:02Speaker 03

  and then he heard from these policy experts and completely changed his position and said, "Okay, I realize that we need to promote the dollar abroad and Bitcoin and crypto is a way of doing it." So it's bit by bit, we're bringing the experts who know about this up to Capitol Hill. Beau and David are bringing them throughout the Trump administration. And so it's one of those unique opportunities in history where people's eyes are open, their ears are open, and they're learning about the great, wonderful things that can come from Bitcoin and the whole marketplace.

• 10:36Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the things that fascinates me is if you go back to Satoshi, the cyberpunk, if you go back to kind of the early days, maybe in the ethos of Bitcoin, it's very libertarian. It's very kind of outside the system, you know, at least small government, if not anti-government. But in a weird way, the US government embracing it has been incredibly important and critical to the position that Bitcoin is in today. It was incredibly important for the SEC to approve Bitcoin ETFs.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? I think Bitcoin would have been successful regardless.

• 11:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 11:09Anthony Pompliano?

  But it accelerated that timeframe. And so how do you think about that? Like, you guys are a pro-growth, kind of small government.

• 11:16Speaker 03

  Fairly libertarian.

• 11:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  I think you and I met at one of the early Bitcoin conferences in Miami. I walked around there and told them, I'm doing support for, in politics, for pro-Bitcoin candidates. And everybody looked at me and said, can't, you know, can't the government just stay out? And if you do have to come in, can it be bipartisan? It's one of the reasons I chose to make what we do bipartisan. And yet now I think everyone realizes having the government agree, this is a good thing in the economy, and we shouldn't be interfering with it, that's a pretty libertarian approach. And for the most part, that's where Trump and his administration are driving, driving the battle.

• 12:00Speaker 03

  Now, you've still got the banks who don't want to modernize, right? And view Bitcoin and other stores of wealth as competition to what they do in the money network. So for example, the stablecoin bill has a provision that the banks wanted in there that you couldn't pay interest on the reserves behind the stablecoin. Well, that's because they don't want to compete and have to pay interest when people hold deposits with them. Right? And so there's a lot, they've got a powerful position. They've lobbied for decades up in Capitol Hill, and they're still quietly pushing back on this. But the momentum is with us, and I think we're going to see good things happen.

• 12:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Stablecoins is another big. Big pieces. Everyone knows Bitcoin is kind of this unique asset with the strategic Bitcoin reserve set in place. Every politician I talk to, they always throw Bitcoin in there like they know that's the hot word that that gets you like kudos in the community, whether they believe it or not. That's like, okay, if I say Bitcoin, people like it. I'm gonna say Bitcoin. Stablecoins, I think, is a much more nuanced thing. They've got to understand some of the technology. They've got to understand, uh, this is a way for the US dollar to actually get more global adoption. What are you seeing there, both in the bill, but also maybe with the conversations with various politicians, their interest in the stablecoins themselves?

• 13:20Speaker 03

  Interesting. Almost that's the focal point for a lot of them right now. It has strong bipartisan support in the Senate and the House. And the administration, talking to Bo and his group, they see this, as you point out, as a way of solidifying the use of the dollar around the world and for trade and transactions. I think the key is not to put too many burdens on it, regulatory burdens, so that we can see a bunch of different stablecoins come into the marketplace. The other one is a bill, the libertarian part of us supports, and that's

• 14:00Speaker 03

  a ban on the central government digital coin. Because the Federal Reserve said, oh, you want a stablecoin? Well, we'll make one, and we'll control it. Well, from a liberty standpoint, the problem with that is that the government then knows every transaction that you've entered into. And so there's strong opposition on that. President Trump, in the campaign, said he would never allow one to be developed. Emmer, Thomas Emmer, up on the House, has a very good bill that got out of committee. There's, now, that's not bipartisan. The Democrats still like the government involved in things, if truth be told. So they haven't come on board on the ban on a,

• 14:41Speaker 03

  I think it's a CBDC, Central Bank Digital Coin, but a government coin. But I think, at least as long as the Trump administration's there, you're not going to see one of those.

• 14:53Anthony Pompliano?

  And when we think about this kind of stablecoin thing, there is onshore stablecoin issuers like Circle and many, many others that exist. And then there are ones that I think people call offshore, like a Tether.

• 15:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:08Anthony Pompliano?

  It seems like Tether is winning in the market outside the United States for sure. But also, they may be coming to the United States now. And it's like, what are you hearing about kind of the competition, right? There seems to be these two different issuers. Both of them seem to be doing a good job in their respective kind of strategies and markets. But it feels like we're heating up for kind of a stablecoin war a little bit between these different issuers.

• 15:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, exactly. And typically, that means things stop up on Capitol Hill, right? They want the industry to reach a consensus on what the issues are all about. You know, you've got in the marketplace, the difference of, is it only US treasuries and US-backed dollar reserves? Or do you have other liquid assets in the marketplace behind your dollar coin? And Tether had that, has historically had that. The, that's, in my mind, an individual choice of what type of asset you want to invest in or use. But then the question, as

• 16:13Speaker 03

  you pointed out, overseas versus domestic. And I think we're very much free traders at the Club for Growth. So I would say, if you're gonna have the government authorize stablecoins, don't limit it to US-only stablecoins. Include others that are developed overseas that are in the marketplace. And I understand Tether is setting up a US component to meet some of those requirements. But the more, the merrier and more choices people have, the market's gonna work out the most efficient, effective one, and everybody will use that until they aren't. And somebody new comes along and beats them in their game. And that's how all the rest of us benefit.

• 16:57Anthony Pompliano?

  What's interesting about Club for Growth is you all have this very specific kind of pro-economic policy and viewpoint. It feels like Bitcoin and crypto are the like productization of that viewpoint.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? I always, I'm very fond of saying like, don't complain, compete, right?

• 17:16Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 17:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Compete in the market.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  Go do it.

• 17:18Anthony Pompliano?

  And it does feel like somehow Bitcoin maybe to start and now some of these other technologies have taken all the complaints that people had for decades about monetary policy, fiscal policy, the national debt, the way that the system works, you know, all this stuff, and actually built a technology solution to then go compete in the market. And so it makes sense to me that you guys would be so into, you know, kind of Bitcoin and crypto, right?

• 17:41Speaker 03

  Totally. That's totally right. It forces discipline on the government. You know, you can't inflate the dollar and expect to compete with Bitcoin that has a fixed amount and therefore isn't going to be inflated away by government policies. The Federal Reserve doesn't like that. Congress doesn't like that because they like to spend money, even if it means inflation. And so the competition suddenly becomes government with Bitcoin or other forms of stable crypto. And, and the government knows it can't keep up with that. We're all in favor of that because it promotes freedom, it promotes economic growth. The other aspect of it isn't talked about as much, but you can use that technology

• 18:25Speaker 03

  for all sorts of things to essentially update the internet, if you think about it that way. I've heard of companies that put car titles. Actually, the new senator from Ohio, Bernie Moreno, had a company that did exactly that. He was a car dealer. And so he figured out, we'll use blockchain to record everybody's title. It's much more secure. It's out there. You can quickly find it and search it. And so if, if America says, we want to be at the forefront of this, it's going to be like the late 90s when the internet revolution occurred and the dot com revolution. All sorts of new innovative products that give us more efficiency, more freedom, more individual choice will come onto the marketplace.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  And that's what the Club for Growth is all about.

• 19:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, that's what I was gonna say, right? Is the other thing that seems to happen with a lot of these technologies is it's very global in nature, and so people are moving to various jurisdictions because there's tax competition.

• 19:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:28Anthony Pompliano?

  And I wonder what the implications on the US tax policy will be. You know, there's places, I think Portugal has no capital gains on crypto transactions. Places like Dubai, I don't think have any taxes whatsoever. Puerto Rico has become a hotspot for Bitcoin and crypto holders because of the tax situation there. Do you see that conversation happening in Washington where people are saying, wait, is talent leaving because of our tax policy? And these other places are gaining advantage? Or are people kind of like, hey, some people are gonna always move to a lower tax jurisdiction, but it's not gonna affect our policy?

• 19:58Speaker 03

  Actually, in DC right now, those are sort of second order questions. It's the regulatory competition that they're trying to correct. Because when the Biden administration came in, issued its executive order and directive for the agencies to really crack down on crypto, SEC wouldn't authorize the, until there was enormous pressure, any of the products related to it. The banks were told, we want you to, you know, we think it's too risky, don't hold and don't bank companies that are relying on Bitcoin and crypto. So they're correcting now all that regulatory overreach.

• 20:39Speaker 03

  And that was driving people to Dubai and even to Europe, which has had less regulation, but not great. Now we're gonna set up a regime that attracts everything back here. At that point, then I think people will start choosing, okay, we've got two favorable regulatory regimes. America is the most stable because of our military and our big position in the world. But maybe I want to get a tax advantage. I could see Portugal attracting business that way. That'll next wave create pressure to address the tax and make it even more favorable. So I see that coming in the future, but not yet.

• 21:21Anthony Pompliano?

  And on that competition, it does feel like a bunch of companies got pushed out to the United States because of the regulation kind of effect, maybe the best way to say it. It was, you know, punishment was really driving the regulation, kind of like the enforcement drove the rules. We've now switched out a lot of the personnel and some of them were just hey, timing of the market and you know, kind of the switch of the administration. And some of it, I think, was very much like, hey, we don't like the policies that these people had. And so we've got a new SEC chairman, we've got a new CFTC, we're getting some of these other regulatory bodies are switching out their personnel. Are you excited about the new people who are coming in? Do you think that's a tailwind for the industry? Or are there still concerns that you have about some of these people who are going into these positions?

• 22:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm very excited about the change out. And they've been very intentional about putting people in place who would be favorable to Bitcoin and crypto. Best example is Paul Atkins, who has just confirmed a few days ago as the chairman of the SEC, 180 degrees different than Gary Gensler. And Paul's been on the commission before as a commissioner. He's wise about how to make the the system work. And Hester Purce agreed to stay on. She's kind of the resident expert in this whole area. And Paul and she work very closely together. So I'm excited about the new personnel. And I think most of the heavy lifting will

• 22:49Speaker 03

  be done there first. We'll remove this over enforcement, like you said, enforce before you write the rules. We'll write clear rules that are very favorable, but protect people from fraud and other things. And then Congress will follow and codify it. Because Congress lets the agencies do the heavy lifting and then codifying is important, though, because then you don't get, say, in four years, we get an administration that goes back to the Biden approach. That would be a disaster and the uncertainty would would be very bad for the industry. So Congress codifying a regulatory structure, putting in place

• 23:31Speaker 03

  and codifying a lot of the rules that are very pro Bitcoin and crypto is a good thing.

• 23:38Anthony Pompliano?

  You and Donald Trump have had amazing relationships. Then in the paper, at least fallen out a little bit, come back. I think there was a famous article in Politico that was like, you know, the Club for Growth and Donald Trump made up and fell back in love again.

• 23:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk a little bit about the relationship, but also I think you've spent time. You understand how he thinks. You understand how he's kind of approaching this stuff. And I think a lot about policy changes usually happen from the top down. Like, none of this is happening without Trump saying, I want to protect Bitcoin. This is important. I think it's both a campaign issue, but also something that'd be good for the country. And so like, what do you think his personal perspective is on this entire thing?

• 24:20Speaker 03

  One, I think he wants America to be at the forefront. He make America great again. Yeah, he wants America to lead in this area. And then second, he's very careful to keep his campaign promises. And not every politician is, but I noticed that in the first administration, whether you agreed with the promises or not, you could count on him working to try to keep those. And he made some very strong, concrete promises that were favorable to the industry. And so he's going to ask people to keep it. Setting up the council was a way of bringing in business expertise, outside expertise to help guide the government policies for him.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  And I know David Sacks and Bo Hines are both in the Oval Office briefing him regularly about it. And that that gives them a lot of authority to go to the agencies and say, you know, the president wants to get this done. Let's do it. I also know that Trump is sort of the art of the deal guy. So if there's a roadblock somewhere along the line up on the hill, I think he then would come in in a more personal way and say, okay, guys, let what's what's the matter? What's how do we cut a deal and do that? And he knows that Club for Growth is very much behind his policies here. That and the big tax bill are our top priorities, right in line with his.

• 25:44Anthony Pompliano?

  This tax bill, when people hear tax cut, they mean Really think rich people are getting a tax cut.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:49Anthony Pompliano?

  And I think there's a couple of components that people have been talking about, at least publicly. There's a extension or a kind of codifying of the original 2017 Trump tax cuts. Maybe you can explain a little about what those cuts were and kind of where we're going. But then there's also this idea of cutting taxes where people will make $150,000 or less per year. And I've heard Howard Letnick, Scott Besen, they're talking about like potentially having 0% federal income tax for these people.

• 26:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's start with the Trump tax cuts first because that I think people think of as like, hey, it's a tax cut for wealthy people. But also the administration is trying to help kind of the everyday American as well. But how do you kind of see what this strategy is here?

• 26:28Speaker 03

  So the, the extension is a problem that was created 10 years ago with the first tax cut bill. And the whole complicated budget rules meant that they couldn't make it permanent. Bad policy, by the way, because things, tax changes that just happen automatically are not good for the economic investment decisions. So the basic decision in this tax bill is, do we extend those tax cuts? Or do we allow them to expire? And this is where it gets partisan, unfortunately. The Democrats' position is we want a $4.5 trillion tax increase. Biggest increase in the country's history. And that's what happens on January 1 next year if they don't pass the bill.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  So their strategy is block it, block it, block it. So we get that tax increase. Republicans have committed, no, we're going to extend those provisions. And they're not tax cuts for just the rich. They're tax cuts for small business that do, that run their whole, there are several provisions in there. There are tax cuts for every American in terms of how deductions are made and, and different provisions in there. The average family would pay $2,500 more in taxes if they let this huge tax increase go through.

• 27:46Anthony Pompliano?

  If the tax cut that's already in place.

• 27:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Is not extended, your math shows a $2,500 increase for the average American family. And that's how you get to, you know, kind of this largest tax increase ever in history.

• 28:00Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 28:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  What the Democrats are saying is it's a tax cut for the rich. The, the rich tax cut, if you will, was the corporate tax rate cut. And that was important for growth. That was permanent. So that's not actually changing one way or the other.

• 28:16Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you say it was important for growth, is there certain things you look at? Is it just like pure GDP growth? Or are there other things that you guys look at that say, hey, that worked?

• 28:25Speaker 03

  Investment in plants and new deployment of capital, return of capital. A lot of corporations were parking money overseas because they had lower tax rates, corporate tax rates there. They brought that back to the United States. That all spurs GDP is, is kind of the gross summary of all of those different activities and how the economy is better off. The other component in this is there's still some more things that we can do to spur that economic growth. We've supported one that would allow immediate expensing of building a new factory and capital deployment.

• 29:06Speaker 03

  Right now you've got rules that spread that deduction out over 30 years, which means

• 29:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Like bonus depreciation stuff.

• 29:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. So that is something we've been pushing. That's kind of in the weeds, but would be an important accelerant in that bill. The real fight now is, okay, if we extend this, are we creating more debt and deficit? And so the House Republicans wanted to offset that with spending cuts, particularly reversing the Biden giveaway on the, like we call it the green scam deductions. But all of his tax bills that targeted the left-leaning industries and gave them these incredible write-offs, repeal that and give the average American a tax break by extending the lower taxes for them.

• 29:57Anthony Pompliano?

  And then the 150,000 or less earners per year, do you think that that is, it sounds good, but very unlikely? Or is there a path here where, you know, because people, here's, here's maybe my angle on it is I saw that in the headlines. I made a video and said, hey, I just saw somebody who's in the cabinet talk about they want to give 0% federal income tax rate to anyone under $150,000. I never got so many responses of people being like, I don't care what side of the aisle they're on, hell yeah, I like that idea, right?

• 30:28Speaker 03

  No, exactly.

• 30:29Anthony Pompliano?

  So what is the likelihood that that's possible?

• 30:31Speaker 03

  So I think their theory is particularly, I think Howard is a big supporter of the higher tariffs, is you switch the revenue stream from income tax over to tariff money. I don't think that's very likely to happen. One of the other factors, the social factors, is people who are in the zero tax bracket don't really care if the government spends money and borrows because they're not going to have to pay it back. And so it lifted the pressure off of Congress to be responsible and not spend more than they take in. When I was in Congress back in the 90s, we created the first zero bracket for people

• 31:16Speaker 03

  in poverty. And I've now come to the kind of position, everybody should have a little skin in the game with how the government's run. So they pay attention, they vote, they talk to their congressman. So even if it's just 100 bucks, you know, for people who are in the poverty level, people making 150,000, you know, they should pay their fair share. What I like is a flat tax that would level the tax amount. For most people, it'd be a tax rate reduction, and that gets you the right economic.

• 31:51Anthony Pompliano?

  What would be the flat rate that you think could work?

• 31:53Speaker 03

  I think the flat rate that gets us to neutrality on the revenue is something around 18%.

• 32:00Anthony Pompliano?

  18% federal?

• 32:02Speaker 03

  Well, but what you do is you count the 15% in social security. So for a lot of people that are at that 100,000, 150,000 range, then it's effectively 3% more for income tax, therefore.

• 32:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. So I mean, you know, if you think about it from that perspective, uh, 18% is a lot lower than what people are paying.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  Right.

• 32:23Anthony Pompliano?

  You know, 20, 25, 30, 35, I think 37% is the highest rate right now.

• 32:27Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 32:28Anthony Pompliano?

  18%, you can have a line out the door, people to sign up for that, right? 18 is not as good as zero, but 18 is better than, you know, 30.

• 32:34Speaker 03

  Exactly. And you eliminate all these deductions that distort the economy. I would keep the charitable deduction because it's popular and it builds culture in our country. But, uh, but get rid of the others.

• 32:47Anthony Pompliano?

  So basically what you do is you go to a flat tax, everyone pays 18%, and then you just remove all of the like gaming of the system. You say, look, you're gonna pay 18%, there's no games to play. You want to donate to charity, that's one thing, but anything else, we take out all these deductions, 18%.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  Do what you think is best with your money.

• 33:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's a significant decrease in your overall tax rate, uh, but you're already using all the deductions to play these games anyways, so just put it down at 18%.

• 33:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:10Anthony Pompliano?

  That's interesting. Do you think that, uh, people could finally file their own taxes?

• 33:13Speaker 03

  It would be so much easier. You put it on a postcard.

• 33:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 03

  Here's what I made last year.

• 33:19Anthony Pompliano?

  You know, with, uh, with Tax Day recently, uh, the Donald Rumsfeld letter always circulates around, right? And, uh, him basically saying like, uh, you know, I'm not a dummy, but I don't know how much I owe you, so I'm doing the best I can. If I made a mistake, you know, sorry.

• 33:30Speaker 03

  No, exactly. It's so complicated. And even with things like TurboTax that help you figure it out, that's also enormously complicated.

• 33:41Speaker 03

  Um, it, and the lobbyists in Washington like that because they get special deals for their clients.

• 33:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Ah.

• 33:48Speaker 03

  And so that, they're the, they're the ones who don't like my idea of a flat tax.

• 33:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Well, I do remember, um, there was this whole thing about the opportunity zones and I read a big article, I think it was, uh, Sean Parker of Facebook fame, uh, and Napster. Him and there was another guy, uh, they went to Obama and they basically made the argument like, these are opportunities and this is areas where capital goes in, it would be good for these, uh, areas, but whatever. Um, which all sounds amazing, right? And makes sense. And, you know, uh, you could even argue is a good idea. The problem is then they say, okay, well, where are the opportunity zones? And then it became a free for all of like, who can advocate for their area that they want to invest in to be an opportunity zone? And some of them are areas where they definitely would qualify under the spirit of this rule. Hey, that is an area where if you put capital in there, we probably shouldn't incentivize that to happen.

• 34:36Anthony Pompliano?

  It's going to make the area better, et cetera. And then there's other areas where you're like, hey, man, this just looks like this is like rich people playing a tax game.

• 34:42Speaker 03

  A little bit of boondoggle.

• 34:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. So I think that that's also part of this, right? It's like there's rules that are created with the right spirit. But it's the implementation, it's the execution that really, really matters. And naturally, whenever that comes up, there's lobbyists that show up, right?

• 34:57Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 34:57Anthony Pompliano?

  I heard a term, it was a cover of a book that I recently bought. I haven't read it yet, so I'll let you know if it's good or not, but it says, The Wolves of K Street. And I said to me, I say, you know, I feel like I should go learn, learn a little bit about what goes on over there. If people writing books with that, that type of title.

• 35:14Speaker 03

  And she's.

• 35:18Speaker 02

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• 35:47Speaker 03

  This is where our position of less government. That means there's less money to be divvied up, less regulations to lobby for. And then the wolves of K Street don't have any clients because they'll, instead of investing money and trying to get a government favor, they'll invest money in a plant or a business or something that produces things. So smaller government means you don't have as much wasted on lobbying and trying to influence how the tax dollars are spent.

• 36:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it makes sense. You mentioned earlier tariffs.

• 36:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Given the Club for Growth's position on many economic topics, I'm assuming you're not a fan. What is kind of the club's viewpoint on the current economic policy that's being put forward?

• 36:34Speaker 03

  So our goal would be to get to zero zero tariffs, right? And it's, I do think it's a mistake to say we have a problem with the balance of payments. It, the balance of payments doesn't tell you anything about whether there, there's a problem with tariffs. It just tells you that a country is making something that we want to buy. So the goal should be zero zero tariffs. We don't have that, and the president's right to point that out, that's a problem. So I, if he's using the tariff policy to push for those negotiations to lower them, then that's a win-win on that. There's a cost because the uncertainty of whether you're going to have a high tariff or a negotiated low tariff

• 37:18Speaker 03

  means people will pause on their investments to wait and see what's going to happen. And he's correctly pointed out that China's a problem. But again, the wrong measure of the problem. Balance of trade isn't what the problem is with China. The problem with China is they're not a free market. So they have government control and can artificially lower prices, can take things in and out of the marketplace. So we should use the tariffs to force them to negotiate, to accept our companies, obey their contracts, allow people to have property rights, things that would make them more a free market economy that we could compete with and trade with. So it's a little nuanced.

• 38:01Anthony Pompliano?

  So you like the tariffs.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  We want to get to zero zero.

• 38:04Anthony Pompliano?

  But to get to zero zero.

• 38:05Speaker 03

  But we recognize there, there's a national security issue with China.

• 38:09Anthony Pompliano?

  And then, do you think that the tariffs in their current form will incentivize restructuring of manufacturing, create American jobs? Like, you know, let's just say that we freeze where we are. Very high tariffs on China at the moment. Lower tariffs on most of these countries, kind of the 10%, you know, blanket tariff. Do you think it works? Like, is there a path to it actually helping?

• 38:32Speaker 03

  I don't think it achieves the goal of re-industrialization.

• 38:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  And I heard somebody in the Trump administration saying that's their goal. I don't think that happens. And I don't think we really want that to happen. I'm not sure we want, you know, a bunch of factories making goods that are just commodities out there, toothpicks and other things like that. I think let other countries, if they can make it cheaper, do that. We want the high-end products where labor is paid more because they add value and create a phone that is a complicated computer and other high-end products like that. And the other thing is, we haven't really lost industrial jobs on the net.

• 39:17Speaker 03

  They've just shifted from the low-end jobs that now other countries can do more affordably to high-end jobs where they add value and create an end product that is worth more. And so labor gets to be paid more. You still have about 20, I think it's about 23, 25% of the economy coming from that manufacturing sector. So it's a myth that we can go back to that industrial economy. What we can do is move to the future where zero tariffs let the United States continue to be the high-tech, the innovator, the new products, and let the rest of the world buy those products.

• 40:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Basically, let them make some of the lower-end commodity stuff and you think, let us do the SpaceXs, the Teslas, the weaponry, the, you know, whatever the kind of high-end, more technical stuff. Okay. And then-

• 40:11Speaker 03

  The other thing that's happening is where you do have manufacturing, the pressure isn't going to be to rehire a bunch of employees. The pressure will be to use computers and robots. And so it's a false vision that's being sold by the folks who want to have, I call it Fortress America with high tariffs on everything.

• 40:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Doge, talk of the town, a couple of weeks ago, seems somehow Doge now quietly is not getting as much attention because everyone's shifted their attention to the tariffs. Do you think they're going to be effective?

• 40:45Speaker 03

  I do. I think one of the things that Elon brought in were a bunch of smart people who could have go in, figure out what the computers say is going on. He tells these incredible stories of the treasury database not saying what it's for, who received the money. I mean, those are just sort of business practices that need to modernize the government. And I think he's very effective at that. They're also letting people go. My daughter works here in New York and her company, before she joined it, had gone through some layoffs. And so she's starting as a new employee, wondering where things are going. Now they're stable and growing and she's got a good job. And we were talking about it.

• 41:29Speaker 03

  She's not, not a fan of Trump, let's put it that way. But she said, well, maybe the government needed to go through some layoffs because 50 years of adding people without modernizing the workforce, it was time. So I think those will be really high value adds that Elon and Doge accomplish. What they shouldn't ask him to do is go campaign.

• 41:54Speaker 03

  It was a mistake to send him out to Wisconsin to try to campaign for that judge. He was right and took the right position, but it took away some of his credibility back in Washington, which he, I would like to see him use every bit of his credibility to keep digging into the government, driving reforms, helping it be more efficient and getting rid of the waste.

• 42:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. There's a couple of things the administration has said is their goal, and I just want to run through them and you tell me, you know, good idea, bad idea, I think it'll work and I think it won't.

• 42:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoin, uh, the United States will be the Bitcoin superpower of the world.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  I think it's a great idea.

• 42:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  Um, and I think the Bitcoin Reserve helps establish that. Um, but also the continued lightning of regulation means you're going to see Bitcoiners want to come to the US. It's stable, it's good, and it's going to be a great discipline on the Federal Reserve.

• 42:51Anthony Pompliano?

  It feels like we have, uh, Bitcoiners that infiltrated the White House.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? Scott Bestin owns Bitcoin, Howard Lutnick owns Bitcoin, Trump owns Bitcoin, Bo Hines owns Bitcoin, David Saxon's Bitcoin. And I know that some of them sold because they had a divest or whatever, right? But like, they were Bitcoiners that held these assets and then went and got these positions, uh, which feels very different. Like, that is a huge sea change from any administration in our lifetime.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  No, that's right. It's unique, it's happening.

• 43:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  It means it's here.

• 43:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. Uh, the United States will be the crypto capital of the world, which is, I think, everything else other than the Bitcoin superpower of the world.

• 43:23Speaker 03

  I, I think that's good, too. Um, and I think, again, as we were talking about, it promotes that innovation. Now, there's a big difference between Bitcoin and the rest of crypto. Decentralized means that you're protected from somebody flooding the market with more of their coin and pocketing the, the value of that because, um, it's not controlled by one group or one's person. That gives Bitcoin a big advantage and is people are weighing what to invest in. But I think the rest of crypto, the market discipline will have them, uh, create products that people can be more comfortable with.

• 44:04Anthony Pompliano?

  The administration has said that they want to create an economic boom in America by using a three-pronged approach, which is use tariffs, cut taxes, and deregulate. Do you think that we will have an economic boom in America and do you think those three things could lead to that boom?

• 44:20Speaker 03

  Uh, I think one of the things tariffs works against that goal.

• 44:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 44:24Speaker 03

  I, I think that makes it less likely for us to have an economic boom. But the other two will absolutely create an economic boom. So one of our messages to Congress was with the President's decision on tariffs, it's even more important that you pass the tax cut bill and that you push through the deregulatory agenda. Um, I think the two of those will compensate for the harm that comes from the tariffs.

• 44:50Anthony Pompliano?

  It's fascinating how everyone is so focused, like the tariffs, the tariffs, the tariffs in a silo, but it happens to this big, complex economic system. Same thing, I think, with tax cuts. Like, I keep telling people, you think people are debating tariffs right now. Half the people don't even understand what a tariff is. Wait till we get to the tax cuts in a couple of months. Like, that debate is gonna be just as ferocious, if not worse, right?

• 45:11Speaker 03

  Well, exactly. And then even worse, are the regulatory reforms, right? Because you want to put somebody to sleep, you start describing FDA regulations and how they approve a new drug.

• 45:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, and it's easy to fear monger, right? It's, oh, my God, the FDA, safety. The second they use the word safety, immediately everyone goes, well, of course, we should be safe.

• 45:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 45:30Anthony Pompliano?

  What is actually driving safety versus what's driving bureaucracy and red tape is very unclear.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  And what they don't tell you is, we're saying we're the safety agency, but at the same time, they're preventing competitors from coming onto the marketplace. So you get two safe drugs, they let one on and they keep the other one off, and then we have to pay a lot more money for that drug.

• 45:51Anthony Pompliano?

  The term or the phrase, "Make America Great Again," I heard Peter Thiel in an interview say that it is inherently a negative or pessimistic view because it suggests that the future of America is not as bright as the past. And so it's a very interesting way to kind of unpack this. But I think that it's been used by one half of the political aisle to signal optimism and resurgence, right? So it's very kind of interesting from a psychological and a marketing standpoint and stuff like that, just the words that are used.

• 46:27Anthony Pompliano?

  I've asked a lot of folks, I'm a staunch independent, and so I ask my Republican friends, I ask my Democrat friends, I ask my independent friends, "Do you think that we should have a brighter future than the past?" Unanimously, everyone says yes.

• 46:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Say, "Great." Say, "Do you think that right now we have problems in America?" Unanimously, they say yes. If I go past that, there's a lot of debate, right? So what are the problems? What's the plan going forward? How, you know, what's inbounds, out of bounds? Like, that's where I think all the debate goes. And so I guess the question just becomes like, do we need to make America great again? Or do we need to simply just continue to make America great?

• 47:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:05Anthony Pompliano?

  And it is less about like, hey, the past was better than the future. And it's more so just like, America's America. Let's like, keep going. And the marketing message works, obviously. You can become president twice. But it's actually more of like, let's continue this, you know, great thing we got going. More so than like, the past was brighter than the future right now.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:24Speaker 03

  I think, and part of what I, with Peter's concern is to say, we've somehow diminished from being great. And I think America's been great since its founding. We have problems that we address. And so I would fall on the make America, continue to make America great. But the president has the MAGA branding. And I think that also, I actually think that does signal optimism. We're going to get better. We're going to continue to improve and make things great. The, the key, I think, to doing it, which is where you'll get all the disagreements is allow more individual freedom

• 48:07Speaker 03

  and have a culture that reinforces basic values, honesty, hard work, the things that have made us great in the past. You combine those two and that, and have policies and visions that focus on that. How do we increase freedom? How do we have a culture that rewards integrity and honesty and hard work? That's the backbone of all the other policies that will let us be great.

• 48:37Anthony Pompliano?

  I appreciate your time. I always learn something when we talk. You've got very unique views. And I think that more so than anything, you guys have the substance. You guys do a lot of research. You guys put quite a bit of time and effort into helping both existing politicians, but also political candidates better understand how these pro-growth, pro-economic viewpoints that you share. What can people who listen to this do to help you guys, right? Like, how do they engage with you all? How can they learn from you? How can they participate in what the club's doing?

• 49:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. Step one, check us out on the internet, the club for growth.org. And you can sign up for free to be a member and then you get information about the candidates we endorse, the policies we're working on. One way to look at what Club for Growth is, is basically a funnel for talent. For men and women who believe in freedom, believe in limited government. And we start with a fellowship program. So some of your listeners could look at that and say, hey, I want to apply to that next year. Take 50 young leaders. They've been out of Congress for a little while, so late twenties up to early forties. And we teach them free market principles. We teach them communications.

• 49:50Speaker 03

  We're going to start teaching them about podcasts. Because that's the new, modern form of communication. And then they form a network. And now there's about 250 of them all around the country. They're on Slack channels, they're on text chains, comparing notes. Hey, in Idaho, we've got this problem. I saw that you had the same thing in Missouri. How did you address it? And so there's a rising network of young leaders who are committed to the right principles. Some of, we hope some of them, on back on the political side. We hope some of them decide to run for office, to run for Congress, run for Attorney General, run for Secretary of State. And then eventually have those people run for Governor and Senator, and eventually President.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  So our mission is to train at the beginning, but then recruit men and women who are committed to doing the right thing, to freedom in particular, in our government. And so people who want to get involved, sign up. Yeah, you can become an activist for us. If you want to contribute, we tell you the candidates we think are really good. And you can contribute, 100% of it goes to the candidate. And then if, if you really like what we do, we've got what are called super PACs, where we come in and help the good guys win with that.

• 51:10Anthony Pompliano?

  The good guys win, that's a good branding as well.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:13Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, David, thank you so much for doing this. We'll definitely do it together in the future.

• 51:15Speaker 03

  My pleasure. Great to see you, bud.

• 51:17Speaker 04

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