Michelle Williams

Michelle Williams (Dying for Sex, Manchester by the Sea, Brokeback Mountain) is a Golden Globe-winning and Oscar and Tony-nominated actress. Michelle joins the Armchair Expert to discuss what constitutes an apex dinosaur skeleton, thinking she may have had one of the the last great American childhoods, and missing getting into good trouble and trying to recreate those opportunities for her kids. Michelle and Dax talk about why nature is the greatest impartial teacher of danger and safety, not realizing that she’s the type of person that makes people nervous, and becoming emancipated at 15 before booking Dawson’s Creek. Michelle explains whether she sensed what Brokeback Mountain would become while she was making it, seeing her work as a record of herself to leave for her kids, and being overwhelmed by emotion listening to the source material for Dying for Sex. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard. You know, I saw a comment. I said Dan Shepard, as I do often.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:08Dax Shepard?

  And someone wrote, why Dan? And I wrote, I know you're a new listener. Welcome.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 0:17Dax Shepard?

  And then the person wrote, you're right. I started listening like eight weeks ago or something.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Oh, fun.

• 0:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. And I said, oh, I just get bored saying my name.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 0:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Oh, I thought.

• 0:26Dax Shepard?

  I get bored easy.

• 0:27Speaker 01

  I thought maybe he was asking, like, what's, is there an original impetus for it?

• 0:33Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I always think of the worst thing, right? That's my gift. So my assumption when someone says that is more like they've found out Dax was a bullshit name, like it was my stage name. That's what I maybe fear people think. Anyways, I'm joined by Monica Lilly Padman, real name.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Real name.

• 0:53Dax Shepard?

  On your birth certificate and your driver's license. Today, we have one of the most acclaimed actors we've had on the show.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00Dax Shepard?

  Michelle Williams.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Oh, she's so good.

• 1:03Dax Shepard?

  I wish it said right here, but I want to say it's like five Academy Award nominations or something bonkers. Definitely four, I think maybe five Emmy win, Tony nomination. Yeah, she's just a powerhouse. Blue Valentine, Dawson's Creek originally, that's where we fell in love with her. Brokeback Mountain, My Week with Marilyn, Manchester by the Sea, my favorite.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Five nominations.

• 1:24Dax Shepard?

  Five nominations. And her new series that's out now with my former boss Liz Merriweather, Dying for Sex on FX and Hulu. Right now, I urge everyone to go watch it. It's very bold. It goes horrid.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does.

• 1:41Dax Shepard?

  Please enjoy Michelle Williams. We get support from Quince.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. And Quince is making it so easy to find something great for everyone on my list, including myself. Because let's be honest, self-gifting is a love language.

• 2:05Dax Shepard?

  Quince is seriously the gift that keeps on giving. Their high-quality staples are made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. Full-on luxury quality at prices that won't wreck your holiday budget.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  It's the dream. The cashmere sweater is starting at $60. Down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories. You and everyone on your list are staying cozy and looking incredible all season long.

• 2:32Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm gonna tell you this. It just got chilly for the first time this year in California, and I'm so excited. And I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 2:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel-quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef-grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here, and it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five-star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves.

• 3:07Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from Gusto. So here's the thing about running a small business that nobody romanticizes. It's not the big idea that wears you down, it's the payroll. The tax filings, the wait, do I need workers' comp for this stuff? That's the part that quietly eats away your whole afternoon, which is where Gusto comes in. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses.

• 3:52Dax Shepard?

  It's all-in-one, remote-friendly, and incredibly easy to use so you can pay onboard and support your team from anywhere. They handle automatic tax filing, direct deposits, health benefits, 401K, all of it. And you get unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price. No hidden fees, no surprises. If something tricky comes up, you've got direct access to certified HR experts who actually know what they're talking about. And they're ranked number one on G2's highest satisfaction products list for 2026, entrusted by over 500,000 small businesses. That's not nothing. Try Gusto today at gusto.com/dax and get three months free when you run your first payroll.

• 4:33Dax Shepard?

  That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com/dax. Again, that's gusto.com/dax.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  I know what I do when I say that.

• 5:00Dax Shepard?

  That's a tour bus. My neighbors think Aerosmith's spending the night.

• 5:04Speaker 03

  Guys, that's so fun and amazing. Kids must love that.

• 5:08Dax Shepard?

  They do. In fact, last year we were gonna go up to Idaho and everyone was busy. So Kristen was like, let's just fly. We had driven the previous four years in the bus and the kids were like, we're not going unless we're on the bus.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  I'm so jealous.

• 5:21Dax Shepard?

  They have bunk beds.

• 5:22Speaker 03

  That's my absolute dream for my kids. I once took Matilda in like an RV on like a big road trip and I was like, this is the greatest. Oh my God, it's incredible for kids. Like I want to get like an old VW bus and like retrofit it. Make it cute.

• 5:36Dax Shepard?

  A microbus.

• 5:37Speaker 03

  Yes, so, yes.

• 5:40Dax Shepard?

  What would you like to drink?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  We have coffee.

• 5:42Dax Shepard?

  You gotta go pee pee?

• 5:43Speaker 03

  No, I'm great. I wouldn't mind a water.

• 5:46Dax Shepard?

  It's an extra iced matcha if you want one.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  Are you coming from France? I don't know. I have to think about that. It might be a little too late for me.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  You said that. It's so flirty.

• 5:57Dax Shepard?

  It's so playful.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  You ever needed a party?

• 5:59Dax Shepard?

  I could have been early.

• 6:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:02Speaker 03

  It's my favorite thing about coming to LA because by nine o'clock I'm totally comatose and I can't even fight it and pretend to stay up and keep accomplishing. It feels like just being drugged. I feel like I'm put under and I love it.

• 6:12Dax Shepard?

  We want to thank you. We haven't been up here in a long time.

• 6:15Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 6:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we've been downstairs where there's video. And so we haven't been in the attic for a long time.

• 6:20Speaker 01

  We used to only do this and then we were forced to add video.

• 6:25Dax Shepard?

  But we like it.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Now we like it. We've been doing it a lot, but this is the original space and it's really nice.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  It's so cozy. I'm very happy to be here.

• 6:32Dax Shepard?

  A lot of tears in here, a lot of laughter, a lot of everything.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  A lot of probably toots.

• 6:37Dax Shepard?

  There's been some unfortunate.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  It's a small room for two, dude.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we invite it.

• 6:42Dax Shepard?

  I don't ever do it when there's guests, but Monica would sit where you're at for the fact check. This is a questionable distance, right?

• 6:48Speaker 03

  It's also that chair is like a sound absorber.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 6:52Dax Shepard?

  And just a muffler in general. And probably, well, I know absorbent. And so a lot of times I'm like, yeah, I think that's far enough away for me to try one. And I've gotten away with most of them. I usually out myself.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  No, yeah, you do a good job.

• 7:05Dax Shepard?

  I have a lot of integrity, Michelle.

• 7:06Speaker 03

  That's so honest.

• 7:09Dax Shepard?

  I have a lot of toot integrity. Why were you late? What have you been doing? Not to out you for being late.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  Podcasting.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  You've been bobbing around.

• 7:17Dax Shepard?

  Previous podcast?

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Radio.

• 7:19Dax Shepard?

  NPR?

• 7:19Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, I was at NPR.

• 7:20Dax Shepard?

  What show were you doing? Were you with Larry Mantle?

• 7:23Speaker 03

  No, I was not with Larry Mantle.

• 7:24Dax Shepard?

  Do you know Larry Mantle?

• 7:25Speaker 03

  No.

• 7:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay, this is one of my wife's huge crushes.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  I don't know who that is.

• 7:29Dax Shepard?

  Oh, she's in love with Larry Mantle. He's a longtime KCRW NPR. He hosts a few shows. He's got a very steady, calming voice. He's older, but that's not who you were with.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  You have a very steady, calming voice.

• 7:41Dax Shepard?

  Oh, thank you so much.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:43Dax Shepard?

  Where are you talking to?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  My god, Dex just exploded.

• 7:47Speaker 03

  I'll have to tune in. You know, it's a tough day for NPR.

• 7:49Dax Shepard?

  I know. It hasn't been cut, but it's being threatened to be cut. That and PBS.

• 7:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:55Dax Shepard?

  I rely on Frontline.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  I can't. I can't. The fact that these are real things.

• 8:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that these are things that must go.

• 8:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:06Speaker 03

  What are we gonna do? What's the plan? I think the plan might be to get in your bus.

• 8:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  Is that a skull T-Rex?

• 8:13Dax Shepard?

  We have a lot to catch you up on. Monica and I want to invest in a real T-Rex skull. They're very expensive, but we want to monetize it by renting out the mouth and turn it into a sex hotel, because people would love to have sex in the mouth of a T-Rex.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  It's very novel.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  I'm sad nobody can see my face right now.

• 8:37Dax Shepard?

  What do you think?

• 8:38Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Is that like whoa?

• 8:41Dax Shepard?

  Positive?

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Or just mind blowing in general?

• 8:46Dax Shepard?

  Is it the level of creativity that has your mind?

• 8:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, kind of. I'm also just like thinking like, what would I do in that school?

• 8:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you would hold on to a tooth at some point, I think.

• 8:54Speaker 03

  You guys go for it.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Each room has a tooth.

• 8:57Dax Shepard?

  Michelle, they're so expensive. We heard that Leonardo DiCaprio has a full skeleton. And I used to know the price tag on it.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  We looked it up once. I forget.

• 9:05Dax Shepard?

  It's outrageous. They're very pricey, limited edition.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  One of my little guys is a dino man. And we just got that new apex at the Museum of Natural History.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 9:15Dax Shepard?

  What's apex?

• 9:17Speaker 03

  It's a perfect stegosaurus specimen.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 9:19Dax Shepard?

  Just landed?

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Ooh, they call it an apex if it's perfect.

• 9:23Dax Shepard?

  Have you read?

• 9:24Speaker 03

  That's its name. I think, I think. Look, I'm working really hard to catch up to his level of dino knowledge.

• 9:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's hard to compete. They gobble it up. Have you read Unstoppable Us to him?

• 9:33Speaker 03

  No, I don't know that one.

• 9:35Dax Shepard?

  It's Yuval Harari who wrote Sapiens. He did a kid's version of Sapiens. We've read it to our kids several times. It's incredible.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  Fantastic. His birthday is coming up. Thank you so much.

• 9:46Dax Shepard?

  They found many of these dinosaurs, ding ding ding, in your birthplace. Isn't Montana a big site for these skeletons?

• 9:53Speaker 03

  I think it's why my son loves me. It's a big point of connection for us, that Montana is home to so many dinosaurs, especially the myosora, the great mother lizard.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 10:05Dax Shepard?

  You know your shit.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  We're deep in. And so my real claim to fame inside my home is that I am also from Montana, land of many dinosaurs.

• 10:12Dax Shepard?

  Were you close to Billings or some city?

• 10:14Speaker 03

  I grew up in a town called Kalispell, which was quite small when I was growing up, but now it's become kind of a big box town. Kalispell is a beautiful place, but it's close to Whitefish Lake, Flathead Lake, and God bless you.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 10:27Speaker 03

  God bless you.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Thank you. I'm embarrassed.

• 10:31Dax Shepard?

  I've seen a lot of cute smiles in my life.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  I know.

• 10:34Dax Shepard?

  Michelle's right be the fucking cheater.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  It's very disarming.

• 10:36Dax Shepard?

  It is. I just imagine a guy pointing a gun at you and saying like, give me your money. And you hit him with that smile.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Do you think this is my best of bad?

• 10:43Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and he would go, I feel so silly. What am I doing?

• 10:46Speaker 01

  How could I hurt this little being?

• 10:49Speaker 03

  That's good to know because somebody told me recently that you should just go for the eyes. But I think instead I'll just give a big smile.

• 10:53Dax Shepard?

  Cause it's so disarming and then boom to the eyes.

• 10:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I thought that was actually really helpful. I hadn't heard the eye thing before. That was new information to me.

• 11:00Dax Shepard?

  That feels like a high probability of failure. Cause you gotta practice.

• 11:04Speaker 03

  And who are you gonna practice on?

• 11:05Dax Shepard?

  Exactly.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Wait, that's another thing we could invent. A practice dummy.

• 11:10Dax Shepard?

  Oh, with some kind of gooey eyes.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Squishy eye.

• 11:12Dax Shepard?

  Polyurethane eyes.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  That's a great one.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  And it could also double as a, what do they call it? Like a sensory.

• 11:17Dax Shepard?

  Slime, fidget toy, all that kind of stuff.

• 11:21Speaker 03

  This is a brainstorming attic.

• 11:23Dax Shepard?

  We're trying to come up with at least seven good ideas per interview. Okay, so Montana, you were there till nine?

• 11:29Speaker 03

  I was. Have you taken the bus?

• 11:31Dax Shepard?

  Actually, I have. In fact, I was towing an obnoxious trailer and we went, I'm embarrassed to admit, but like one of these conferences. And it was at Yellowstone, that fancy place. And then everything is set for you, but I had to call ahead and I said, so I have a 45 foot bus and a 22 foot trailer. Is there any place to park for me? And they're like, no, we're gonna have to meet you at this service lot with the snow plows. So we had to park there and then get shuttled into there.

• 11:54Speaker 03

  Was there a real learning curve with that thing?

• 11:56Dax Shepard?

  For most people, yeah, but I grew up working for General Motors and I've been driving really large things since I was young.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  So you're very comfortable.

• 12:04Dax Shepard?

  Some would argue too confident.

• 12:06Speaker 03

  Got it.

• 12:08Dax Shepard?

  Kristen often says she can't wait for the day that she sees me parallel park as quick as I do and fuck up. She's like, you know, your powers are gonna fade and I just can't wait till you just fucking blast into a car, take off the side of the bus. She's really looking forward to that. But Montana, did you have that childhood I would fantasize about?

• 12:26Speaker 03

  I really did. I think I had the last great American childhood, except for your children.

• 12:31Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  Because they have bus life and you're taking them into the national park system.

• 12:36Dax Shepard?

  I'm jealous of them.

• 12:37Speaker 03

  They're getting what I had.

• 12:38Dax Shepard?

  They have as many motorcycles as I have. They are so well-equipped.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  I love this. So do the motorcycles go on the bus?

• 12:44Dax Shepard?

  They go on the back of the bus. If we don't have the trailer, then we have this big tray. And I put my 11-year-old daughter's motorcycle, now 12, her motorcycle, my motorcycle, and then two electrics for the non-enthusiasts.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  And is her motorcycle gas?

• 12:57Dax Shepard?

  It's gas. But they have electric as well.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  Matilda, my daughter grew up with electric vehicles.

• 13:03Dax Shepard?

  It's a very good esteem builder. The theory I had was she'll be sitting in class next to somebody and she'll be feeling insecure, but she'll go, "I ride a dirt bike." And they don't do that. And that's just one thing. You just need something to cobble together a little confidence.

• 13:17Speaker 03

  I couldn't agree more. Real confidence, based on doing things that are scary and knowing that you are capable and that you can trust yourself and that you have good judgment.

• 13:28Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna add, it's a real bonus, too, if even the boys in your class can't do it.

• 13:32Speaker 03

  Exactly. For girls, especially.

• 13:34Dax Shepard?

  You were fishing and you were shooting guns as a kid, right?

• 13:38Speaker 03

  We were clay pigeons shooting, but I didn't go hunting necessarily. But I went fishing and I had a lot of those experiences in nature of getting confidence through practical life skills that required some level of attention because of possibility for accident.

• 13:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 03

  Horses, skiing, motorcycles, fishing, all of these things are so important. You think of them as they're typically male, but they're most especially important for girls. Did you grow up with motorcycles? No, I didn't have any dirt bikes when I was growing up, but they were a part of my program for Matilda when she was growing up. Wow.

• 14:16Dax Shepard?

  Your program?

• 14:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. So when I grew up in Montana, my big experience there was being on my great-grandparents' farm. They had cattle, wheat, and horses. We lived in town where the grocery store was.

• 14:29Dax Shepard?

  Town in quotes?

• 14:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, town. And they lived more in the middle of the state and they lived on the farm in a much more rural environment. And that's where a lot of my exploring happened. But we were also skiers. Mind you, do I ski now? No. Do I ride a dirt bike now? No. Do I fish? No.

• 14:48Speaker 03

  But I have all of those things inside of me. They really were formative in my ideas about who I could be. So that when you're sitting in class and you're next to some jerky guy who's trying to stick his finger in your nose, you're like, no, no, no, no, no. I know myself to be worth more than this.

• 15:08Dax Shepard?

  There are also really great little trials of being afraid. All these things you would start with fear unless something's wrong with you. So just these little ways to confront fear and then get comfortable and then have the pride of having confronted it. All those things are really good. How about even on Grandparents Farm, going on a long walk where you're like, oh yeah, I'm a little scared.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  That was my whole childhood. Every day was come back when you hear the dinner bell. And we were free to do whatever we wanted as long as we came home when we heard the dinner bell. And so it gave us so much time to meander and explore and go down these dirt roads and ride bikes and discover little things and find treasures and take them home and hide them. And then take them out in the middle of the night when they thought that we were sleeping. And you're just getting into good trouble. And I miss it so much for my own children. And I'm constantly thinking about how to create these experiences. But as you know, it's difficult. It requires a lot of infrastructure and undertaking if you live in an urban environment to try and get them out. So can I please come on? There's room for a family of six.

• 16:13Dax Shepard?

  Yes, we will make room. I might have to tow another living quarters behind it.

• 16:17Speaker 03

  You would love to get another bus going.

• 16:19Dax Shepard?

  But I can't drive both at one time, or can I?

• 16:22Speaker 03

  Michelle can drive it. I actually can.

• 16:24Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. You saw it. Fuck it, take it for a rep. When this is all done, we'll give you a little chest. But you know what else is happening on those walks? You scare yourself, that's fun. But then also your imagination on fire because as beautiful it is, it's also boring. You gotta now pretend on this bike ride that you're doing something important. I had to make myself some explorer and you're really trying on all kinds of different fun pretend identities.

• 16:49Speaker 03

  You're starting acting. You have to start to storytell with the landscape too. What is that abandoned house? We shouldn't go in it. There's probably a witch. Yeah. Yeah, there's a witch that lives in that house. And then that becomes part of the play and part of the fantasy. But it just requires tremendous boredom, tremendous freedom and a total lack of supervision. And where are you going to get that these days?

• 17:10Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  So how do you do that here, aside from getting out of here?

• 17:14Dax Shepard?

  We have been criticized for this publicly. We let our kids go. I've encouraged them. You want to walk to the store, go to the store. We were in Denmark and there's the Trafalgar Park. And so in the morning, we just say to the girls, goodbye, here's a credit card. You can spend X amount and then here's the time you got to meet us. So we're very big into just turning them over to the world and hoping for the best. It's worked so Do you know Leonora Scheney? She is this proponent of free range parenting. She's great. We interviewed her and she was letting her kid ride the subway at a very young age, but he had mastered the subway. People called her the worst mom in America.

• 17:50Speaker 03

  Abuse claims.

• 17:51Dax Shepard?

  And the kid's fine and did great. So

• 17:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm with you guys.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Also Jonathan Haidt, he has the new book, Anxious Generation. This is sort of his antidote to all the stuff that's happening with kids and the isolation is make them have a community, but leave, go send them off to go explore.

• 18:09Dax Shepard?

  Unsupervised, as you said, that's the key. But yeah, crossing a river, and this had to happen to you a ton. You got to cross a river and you got to jump on the different rocks to get over there. But you need a story in your head of why we must cross this river because we're being chased. It's so good.

• 18:22Speaker 03

  The other thing that happens when you're in a natural environment is that you are learning so many lessons. You're in a receptive state, not a defensive state, because it's not your parent, it's not your teacher. It is the thrill of your skin in the wind and the understanding that your survival depends on you and only you. And so you're constantly assessing your own comfort with danger and your own ability to keep yourself safe. So when you learn that with an impartial teacher like nature, you can take that into the rest of your life and really fall back into yourself and say, I know myself to be a person who makes good decisions. I know myself to be somebody who can keep myself safe and balanced.

• 19:04Speaker 03

  And that feedback loop that a child gets when they decide which rocks are the safe rocks, which one isn't slippery, which one isn't too pointy, when they're quite literally getting their footing, it is feeding their body with information.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  About how to take risks. It's very challenging to figure out how to do that today. Denmark is a great place to do that. You were just doing what the Danes do. I mean, that's the Danish way.

• 19:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh, even better. You see like up in Sweden and stuff, they leave their babies outside in the pram in the cold. They're going to the store and there's just babies lined up.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  And don't they have playgrounds there that are specifically to get kind of hurt? Designed so that there's just a little.

• 19:46Dax Shepard?

  Tools and stuff. Yeah, to play with and nails and real shit.

• 19:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:50Dax Shepard?

  We should raise some children in a commune. I think we're in lockstep.

• 19:53Speaker 03

  We are so like minded. I mean, don't get me started talking about cell phones.

• 19:58Dax Shepard?

  OK, so you moved to San Diego when you're nine. Why did we move to San Diego?

• 20:02Speaker 03

  The weather.

• 20:03Dax Shepard?

  OK, had enough of those winters.

• 20:05Speaker 03

  My parents did. I was quite happy there. Such a good life. But the winter that we moved, it hadn't gotten above 40 below. So off to San Diego we went.

• 20:13Dax Shepard?

  And how did you take to San Diego? That's a big cultural shift.

• 20:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was a real shock. I don't think I'd seen a freeway before. I was surprised that everybody's house looked like everybody else's house. These big swaths of tract housing developments built along a freeway. And you know, when you're a kid, you don't really feel the cold. It doesn't register with you as something that you have to gird yourself for because you have so many fun things that you can do in the cold.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 03

  Now at 44, I'm like, whoo, I'm cold.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Can't handle it.

• 20:44Dax Shepard?

  I've gotten cold in my old age.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  It's amazing how quickly you adjust to that California lifestyle.

• 20:50Dax Shepard?

  So I'm going to go by the lore. Some of this might be apocryphal, but you see The Adventures of Tom Sawyer. You see that play and you're intrigued?

• 20:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, we went to go see a play in my memory, sort of an abandoned shopping mall. And the ceiling is dripping and the folding chairs are metal. And you walk through a backstage where you see these child actors in various stages of hair and makeup and playing games and braiding each other's hair and costumes. And so I saw the kind of inner workings and then we watched this play.

• 21:21Dax Shepard?

  That's interesting that you saw that first.

• 21:23Speaker 03

  That's what I really love.

• 21:24Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  That's my favorite part, the behind the scenes, the people, the community, the friendships, the safe space, the chosen family. That's the stuff that I really get excited about.

• 21:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, the combined goal of the business that goes into it.

• 21:42Speaker 03

  I just remember holding on to my seat, thinking it was going to take off like I was on an airplane. Because I was so transported into this play that I was watching with kids my age. And they seemed like they were having so much fun and singing and dancing. And I thought, oh, I'd like to be a part of this, whatever this thing is. And so that continued to be something that I did the whole time that I was in San Diego. Always more of a chorus girl, more like an orphan son's name, just back row tapper.

• 22:12Dax Shepard?

  Because Annie was your first thing.

• 22:13Speaker 03

  I think so. I was a back row orphan.

• 22:15Dax Shepard?

  I think Annie's a gateway drug.

• 22:17Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:18Dax Shepard?

  Because my daughter's about to do it in a month. And our other friend's kid is currently doing Annie at the same time.

• 22:24Speaker 03

  Songs like that, they hook into you. And then you think you should spend your whole life singing them and you would be a happy person.

• 22:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Did you want to be a singer?

• 22:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really wanted to sing and dance. That just looked like a whole lot of fun to me.

• 22:36Dax Shepard?

  But were you good at singing or dancing?

• 22:38Speaker 03

  No, no. Born with just enough talent to cobble together the ability to do this. A passable voice and some workable feet, but not prodigious.

• 22:47Dax Shepard?

  You sang as Marilyn.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have enough musicality that I can pull certain things off and also have an ear for accents.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  I was talking about this with a friend last night because I went to the Beyonce concert. And this is a very, very good singer I was with. And we decided that you can kind of, with training, raise yourself three degrees. If you're born as a seven, which is very high, you could get to a 10. But if you're born a three, you're not getting to a 10. Even if you work so hard, you're probably going to max out at a six or seven.

• 23:22Speaker 03

  It's so true.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  With singing and dancing, I think.

• 23:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:25Dax Shepard?

  But do we think that could extend to some other things like comedy? I don't think you can train yourself from a three.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  To me, I think comedy is a more learned skill in general. Singing?

• 23:34Dax Shepard?

  Right. You have some anatomy that's going to lend itself.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  You have to have a range.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Yes, that's it. Comedy, I think, if you're in the right circumstance, if you have enough trauma.

• 23:43Dax Shepard?

  See, that's the thing. I think there's an archetype of the brain that is similar.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, and your trauma could come later, so your humor could develop.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:51Dax Shepard?

  It's never too late to be a great comedian.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  And if you're around comedy a ton, you do start infiltrating that a little bit more.

• 23:59Dax Shepard?

  You learn some tricks.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  You can listen to as much music as you want.

• 24:01Speaker 03

  You're not gonna be Beyonce.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  No, you're not.

• 24:03Dax Shepard?

  I need to admit something to you. I don't know that I've ever done this, but you make me really nervous.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 24:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  What?

• 24:08Dax Shepard?

  I think it's a good feeling, though. It's a good kind of nervous, but I don't really get nervous and I can feel nervousness in my body.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  I'm kind of nervous, too.

• 24:17Dax Shepard?

  Are you? Yeah, yeah, I was just wondering.

• 24:19Speaker 03

  You guys, this guy?

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that smile really took a turn.

• 24:23Dax Shepard?

  It's like kind of maniacal. It's so cute and scary.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  That's the best combo.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  I've never been described like this and I didn't know that I had the ability to unnerv anyone.

• 24:33Dax Shepard?

  Do you think maybe you were just missing it and no one told you?

• 24:36Speaker 03

  What was I missing?

• 24:36Dax Shepard?

  You're powerful and you make people nervous.

• 24:41Dax Shepard?

  Oh, good, I got her.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  I know what it is.

• 24:46Dax Shepard?

  Tell me what it is.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  You are very measured and in control of yourself. It also seems clear in a beautiful way. You're not gonna go anywhere you don't want to go. You have full control.

• 24:58Dax Shepard?

  And I'm sloppy. And I'm like, I want the interplay to be right. But yeah, I'm a sloppy mess that I somehow landed.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, we don't deserve to be doing this. Hey, Dex, I think we should stop.

• 25:09Dax Shepard?

  You know what Kristen did tell me? I said, you know Michelle a little bit, right? And she said, yeah, I love her. We have a lot of mutual friends, which makes me feel closer to her than we actually are. But she said she speaks very poetically. I love how she speaks.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  I've already gotten that.

• 25:23Speaker 03

  You guys, just get me on that bus. And let me, let me show you when there's not a microphone in my face, okay?

• 25:32Speaker 01

  It is a compliment.

• 25:33Speaker 03

  Elsewhere. I'm obsessed with your wife. She changed our life.

• 25:36Dax Shepard?

  You can include me. I wrote the essay.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  Did you?

• 25:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I wrote the thing that went viral. I didn't need to take credit for that. A really good version of me would have just let her have credit for that. She did more ultimately than I did. But I wrote a thing I was so upset. I just put it on Tumblr.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Tell people.

• 25:51Dax Shepard?

  Okay, when Lincoln was born, there were paparazzi living on the driveway for a long time. And every time we left, we covered her with a blanket. We went to so many lengths to not let a photograph of her get taken. And we were at the Hanson's house, Deep Valley. I wasn't even thinking. And it leave in their house. And then my mom texts me like, oh, I'm so sorry. And it's a picture of Lincoln and I was, I can even say now maybe over, but I was just so fucking upset about it. That I wrote this long thing and I put it on Tumblr and then somehow got picked up by the Huffington Post and all these places. And then that led to talk shows inviting us to argue with paparazzi, which we did. And this is where she deserves all the credit, Kristen. She built a coalition of other actors, basically saying, we will no longer participate in these magazines.

• 26:33Dax Shepard?

  If they don't stop showing kids, it was called the no kid policy. And she got all the photo houses to commit to that, which was pretty powerful. And I do give her all the credit for that.

• 26:44Speaker 03

  It was incredible. I remember the day that People Magazine said that they would stop publishing photos of children. And I was like, wow, this whole structure collapsed because it had been such a problem for us for so many years and it had limited our life.

• 26:59Dax Shepard?

  You had a really rough version of it.

• 27:01Speaker 03

  Unmanageable, unlivable, but I didn't know what to do. I just cried and moved to a different place. Then to see these ideas that you guys were having and then this action around it. And then this change, I wrote to her at the time and I sent her a picture of Matilda smiling on the beach. Because before that, Matilda didn't like to have her photo taken because that experience was taken from her. And she didn't feel ownership over her image. And so even with friends and family, that was a place where she could express a boundary and say, no, I don't want my picture taken. But when that system crumbled, she smiled for the camera. That's so sweet. And they sent that.

• 27:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, she came in and read that to me. That was really nice of you to send. Even forget the cameras, just imagine you take your kids out and there's seven men in fatigues that just running a circle around you. That's such a bizarre human experience for a little kid.

• 27:56Speaker 03

  For anyone.

• 27:57Dax Shepard?

  It's kind of nuts to shit when we look back what was totally acceptable. You look at Britney's life at the apex and you're like, that's just an assault.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  I think that what happens is that people assume those children have other advantages. And so they aren't able to empathize with them.

• 28:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's just the price you have to pay. And they're right in some degree, at least saying, you chose that, right? And I would agree. You go into acting, you would have to have your head in the sand to think that if I get popular enough, I might not have to deal with that. Now, we could have another debate about whether you really need to deal with that because you want to act. But your kids didn't choose that. That's an insane proposition that the kids made the decision to be born to the parents who made the decision. That's like sins of our fathers stuff.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, has it really just gone away?

• 28:40Dax Shepard?

  I believe so. By the way, the added benefit for us was we're always with our kids. So we don't really deal with it at all.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  I also think part of what has changed is Instagram. This is maybe the positive part of Instagram. You don't need to go to the grocery store and flip through this horrible magazine to find a picture of someone's kid. A lot of people post pictures of their kids that are chosen and they're curated. So it's available.

• 29:07Dax Shepard?

  Also, you're getting a photo in their house of them smiling. You have this new access that they're in control of. So it's more interesting. I do think that overall just kind of crippled that industry. Although there seems to be a market still for Ben Affleck and Justin Bieber. Those two seem to still be living in

• 29:24Speaker 03

  And their children.

• 29:25Dax Shepard?

  Prison, yes.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Also, we started the beginning of this conversation talking about the importance of kids being able to be out and free range and running around. And if they can't, because there are people taking pictures of them, that's an added layer of what they're imprisoned by, which is so unfair.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, something that they shouldn't have to think about.

• 29:43Dax Shepard?

  Also, then you add in there the kid that's arriving at school with a gang. It's already hard enough to fucking go to school.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  So embarrassing.

• 29:48Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:49Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 29:50Dax Shepard?

  You need to do more than riding motorcycles to overcome that. That deficit you've assumed. Okay, now, this is a thrilling part of your story. You start acting. You're on Baywatch is your first one?

• 30:02Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 30:03Dax Shepard?

  Incredible. How old were you on Baywatch?

• 30:05Speaker 03

  Probably 12.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Wow, that's young for Baywatch.

• 30:09Dax Shepard?

  You were a temptress to a young man? Was that the storyline?

• 30:12Speaker 03

  No, I was just a girl running in a bikini. On the beach and inviting him. Wait, were you really? Oh, yeah. At 12? Oh, no. Oh, yeah. Wow. Times really have changed. Yes, just a girl jogging in a bikini. As we do. Very normal.

• 30:34Dax Shepard?

  And then you were in Lassie and you were in Step by Step. You were in Home Improvement. You were like working.

• 30:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really was. That's a three, four year span of time. So it was guest thing here, guest thing there, commercial here, commercial there. Enough to keep going and to be sustinitive. You're going out on three things a day.

• 30:54Dax Shepard?

  And you're in San Diego, so you're going to LA a ton.

• 30:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, so really going back and forth.

• 30:58Dax Shepard?

  Are you taking the train or are you driving?

• 30:59Speaker 03

  Driving.

• 31:00Dax Shepard?

  Mom's driving you?

• 31:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, Mom's driving. There's some other kids in San Diego and there's just kind of this idea in the air that, hey, you can go to LA and you can audition for things and then you might be in Hollywood. And there were some people who fell under that spell and there were some minivans doing that shuttle back and forth and you'd go to your cattle call and then you'd go get a cookie at the mall and you'd turn around and do your homework in the backseat by a little car light and go home.

• 31:24Dax Shepard?

  OK, now this is the part that's really unique is you got emancipated at 15. And you had to do all of high school in nine months?

• 31:32Speaker 03

  I did. When I got emancipated.

• 31:34Dax Shepard?

  When I read that, I was like, can that be done?

• 31:36Speaker 03

  I know. I'll tell you what, it really makes me feel like that skull right there. I'm like, wait, how long ago was that? Are you sure that that was this lifetime that we're talking about? Because Charlie, you can't do that anymore. It's a very strange thing because you have all these child labor laws and when you're a child actor, you need to have a tutor. You can only work a certain number of hours and you need to have a guardian, like a social worker who's concerned with your safety. And if you do something called being emancipated, you don't have to have any of those. You're an adult. Nobody's looking after you, nobody's teaching you and you can work whatever you want, whatever they want. Exactly.

• 32:08Dax Shepard?

  Was this your idea?

• 32:09Speaker 03

  It was an idea. Other kids were doing it. There is a movie of the week about it.

• 32:14Dax Shepard?

  Oh, OK, great. That's helpful. It looked fun.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  Then it just sort of happened. Because I was a child, I don't fully know the ins and outs of it.

• 32:23Dax Shepard?

  I would guess you have two vastly different perspectives. One now as an adult who's been around 13 year olds and 15 year olds. And then the 15 year old you who probably thought you were 26.

• 32:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, who couldn't really like see into the future to understand ramifications or what practical life would look like. Then now, looking back and feeling, I'm just so lucky.

• 32:45Dax Shepard?

  It could have gone crazy. What age were you when you moved to Burbank?

• 32:49Speaker 03

  15. I was sort of bouncing around those valley apartments.

• 32:52Dax Shepard?

  Were you ever at the Oakwood?

• 32:54Speaker 03

  Sure was.

• 32:54Dax Shepard?

  Oh, did you see the documentary about it?

• 32:57Speaker 03

  No, I don't think I can.

• 32:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I think you should. It'd probably be so PTSD for you.

• 33:02Speaker 03

  I probably have some friends from the past.

• 33:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 33:08Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. This episode is brought to you by McDonald's. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Medium Fries and a Drink is now $8.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  What?

• 33:25Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I need to talk about something that doesn't get enough respect. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese. This is not a casual burger. This is a crafted burger. We're talking 100% fresh beef cooked right when you order it. No artificial flavors, no fillers, no preservatives, just beef doing what beef is supposed to do. And here's a detail I love. There's a cowbell sound in the kitchen. When somebody orders a Quarter Pounder with Cheese, a cowbell goes off and the grill master throws a fresh patty down. That's like having your own entrance music at McDonald's. I want a cowbell for everything in life. The onions are hand topped by someone who just knows the right amount. Two slices of cheese laid out in a star pattern. So every single bite gets cheese. And two pickles side by side. So you're never in a pickle desert.

• 34:09Dax Shepard?

  Every bite is accounted for. Someone engineered this thing with love. I love a Quarter Pounder.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  Me too. That's my order. It's a Quarter Pounder with cheese. I love it. I didn't know they put so much effort that they did a star formation. I should have known because you can taste it when there's effort.

• 34:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, the love. Don't tell anyone this, but I'll put two of them back.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:31Dax Shepard?

  I'm sitting.

• 34:32Speaker 03

  I'm not surprised.

• 34:33Dax Shepard?

  The Quarter Pounder with Cheese with Fries and a Drink, now $8 for a limited time only, only at McDonald's. For a limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California, and for delivery. Fresh beef not available in Alaska and Hawaii. Offer not valid for delivery. We get support from Quince. Okay, so I have a confession. I'm the worst holiday shopper on the planet. I wait until the last possible second, I panic, and then I end up buying something nobody wants. But this year, I've cracked the code, and the code is cozy. And Quince's bedding makes it so easy because the quality is exceptional. It's the kind of gift people actually use and love long after the holidays.

• 35:12Speaker 01

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• 35:30Dax Shepard?

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• 35:45Speaker 01

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• 35:55Dax Shepard?

  I mean, guys, I put these on the bed of my children. They are wrapping my little babies, and I feel great about it.

• 36:01Speaker 01

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• 36:15Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from No Bull. The holidays can get hectic. You finally hit a post summer routine and suddenly you're on hosting duty every week.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  That's when you really need to ground yourself.

• 36:46Dax Shepard?

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• 37:23Speaker 01

  And if you're a cardio person and you're running and you also need to be lifting.

• 37:27Dax Shepard?

  And the style is banging. I don't know what to say. Beautiful style, very breathable, very, very comfortable, lots of support. They were built for lifting.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  They also make a great holiday gift. You know, I love gifting, a purposeful one that actually supports someone's goals and routines. And it's not a gift that just ends up in the back of a closet.

• 37:44Dax Shepard?

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• 38:28Dax Shepard?

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• 39:05Dax Shepard?

  And were you living on your own at 15?

• 39:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, I got emancipated at 15 and a half. And then I got to Dawson's Creek when I was 16. So then I was transported very quickly to Wilmington, North Carolina, which was a much safer, sounder environment to be a young person on their own.

• 39:21Dax Shepard?

  You said at one point, and I will get it wrong, but something to the effect of there's a lot of scary people or dangerous people in LA. And I met many of them during that period. Was it fucking terrifying? That sounds insane.

• 39:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it was. And I thank God that I got that show and that it plucked me out and landed me on this sleepy, southern coastal town and that I had a job to go to and a place to be responsible to. And met a few people there that are still in my life, that I love very much, that are so much a part of me, and had some kind of stability.

• 39:54Dax Shepard?

  OK, so yeah, when you got Dawson's Creek, you got very lucky. That's kind of a little life raft at that moment.

• 40:00Speaker 03

  It was really great and I really wanted it. And I was so excited. And you know, when you go on so many auditions and you get down to the wire on things, there's so many heartbreaks that you go through as a child actor. The things that you almost get or the things that you never hear from again, even though you wanted them so badly. Your heart endures a lot when you are a kid trying to deal with mass rejection daily.

• 40:22Dax Shepard?

  And the stress of supporting yourself in Burbank.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was weird.

• 40:26Dax Shepard?

  What was the age of the other folks? Were they a little older than you?

• 40:29Speaker 03

  They were legal adults, 18, 19, 20.

• 40:32Dax Shepard?

  They didn't do high school in nine months?

• 40:34Speaker 03

  But they did not do, let's be honest, it was correspondence school.

• 40:38Dax Shepard?

  Did you get a GED? Is that what you ended up with?

• 40:40Speaker 03

  Free internet. So I'd like for you to imagine what that might look like.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's great. You wouldn't know it while talking to you.

• 40:47Dax Shepard?

  It's a testament to forgetting about school, I'd say.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Exactly. This is not a good endorsement for school.

• 40:52Speaker 03

  The only thing that matters to me is for my kids going to college.

• 40:54Dax Shepard?

  Were you a reader?

• 40:55Speaker 03

  I did read. I loved books, so I had that on my side. I could always just turn to a book if I had a question about something in life.

• 41:04Dax Shepard?

  And it's expanding your vocabulary.

• 41:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I would read novels, but I would also read books about history. I mean, the gaps in my knowledge, they're everywhere. So I would go to Barnes and Noble and not only would I get the novels that I wanted to read, but I would also get an incomplete education or a beginner's guide to world geography.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  We've had a few people on who have left school early and they're always the smartest people in the room because of this. They have this idea that the reason they don't know things is because of their lack of schooling. So they're making up for it. Whereas if you've gone through all this schooling, you're like, yeah, I just don't know that because I don't know. There's no hang up about it. Does that make sense?

• 41:40Dax Shepard?

  Yep. So that's one theory. That's a good theory. My theory is almost similar to me going to college. Like I retained so much from college and other people didn't, but I wasn't there because I had to be there. I got to study whatever I wanted. I was not trying to get a career in anything. So I think if you weren't educated and then you set out to learn, you want to. It's not something you're forced to do. It's like the decision to pursue this. And that just makes all the difference in the world.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. When you really want it.

• 42:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I remember distinctly arguing a guy drunk in Detroit when I was 19 and he just mopped the floor with me. I didn't know what the fuck I was talking about. I didn't know it was Egypt 10 years ago or like 900 years ago. And it was 3,000 years ago. I remember just being humiliated with how little I knew in that argument. And that was like a big motivator for me. I'm like, oh, I'm stupid.

• 42:27Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you want to be able to cross pollinate and to be able to sit next to anybody and have a point of contact for their frames of reference. That became clear to me.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Did you have an interesting relationship with adults since you were a kid, but behaving as an adult? Did you seek the safety of other adults in your life?

• 42:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think I thought I was an adult. The people that I was on the show with, they weren't not my age, but they were also a little bit older where they were like, she's 16. Okay.

• 42:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Stay away.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  I made some local friends, but again, they weren't my age and I am very close with Mary Beth Peel, who played my Grams. I felt like it was an ageless relationship, but I don't know if I had met another 16 year old who was at the local high school that I would have been like, what are you doing after school today?

• 43:13Dax Shepard?

  Right. Yes. Cause you're going to go home and cook dinner for yourself.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  I'm gonna go make a box of pasta. And heat up some tomato sauce.

• 43:21Dax Shepard?

  Were you lonely there?

• 43:23Speaker 03

  I've never really felt lonely, to be honest, because I had all those early rambling experiences in nature. And so I was sort of conditioned to that. I didn't feel lonely at all. I had a car. There were three bookstores. There was a record store. I lived near the beach. Maybe I'm just saying that in retrospect, but it was a great place to be young. And then Busy joined the show. I don't know, how old were we? Eighteen or something? I can't really remember. But we've been best friends ever since. So that was the end of anything that I might have experienced as loneliness.

• 43:54Dax Shepard?

  Oh, OK.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  I love parasocially watching the two of yours relationship. It's so lovely.

• 43:59Speaker 03

  We're like the odd couple.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  It's so sweet.

• 44:02Speaker 03

  We're like, those two things shouldn't go together. And yet they do.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  And yet they do. Female friendship is so beautiful. We're talking about it more. It will come up when we talk about your show. But seeing it out in the world is really nice for young girls. Because there's a lot of competition also amongst girls. And it's good to see these two people are soulmates.

• 44:22Speaker 03

  That's exactly the word that I would use. It's an A storyline, not a B storyline. And it's enough to sustain years, decades, a lifetime.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, beautiful. If you can find that, that's what I want for any young person.

• 44:36Dax Shepard?

  I only have three pieces of advice for young men. Get a best friend, learn to dance, and try to learn a few jokes. And everything's going to work out just fine.

• 44:43Speaker 03

  I'm going to tell my boys. Thank you.

• 44:45Dax Shepard?

  Well, you can send them to my school. It takes about seven minutes.

• 44:48Speaker 03

  I'm already sending them to bus school. I thought we had an agreement.

• 44:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they must know how to back up a trailer by the time they're 18. That's another skill. OK, so during the whole Dawson's Creek experience, you clearly had your mindset on establishing yourself in projects that were tonally kind of opposite. Was there tension between the gratitude for having such a great, safe job? And then also not being in the things that you were dying to be in?

• 45:18Speaker 03

  No, because there was room for both. I did this movie when I was young called Me Without You that shot in the UK. And they accommodated it in our work schedule to allow me to go. Back and forth to do this movie that I was dying to do. It's also not like I was getting a million offers to go do other things. There was enough for me.

• 45:38Dax Shepard?

  But you were playing a Brit in that movie.

• 45:39Speaker 03

  I did. I think that Dawson's Creek was even nice enough to like, let me dye my hair and then wear a wig on their show. So it was allowing for a variety of experiences. And then we got that summer break because I think we shot nine months a year. And then you would have the opportunity to go do something else during the summer if something came up.

• 45:55Dax Shepard?

  The things that you did in that period, which were Kill Joe, Dick, If These Walls Could Talk, Me Without You, was it hard to get cast in stuff like that, given what you were currently known for? Was that a challenge?

• 46:06Speaker 03

  I would say so.

• 46:07Dax Shepard?

  Because from the outside, it would appear like you're on this thing, but you know you want a career at some point that's going to be much heavier and that you're going to have to establish yourself as quick as possible before you're just permanently in one type of role? Or was that not happening in your head?

• 46:23Speaker 03

  I didn't really think in the future like that necessarily. I wasn't career focused. I was just finding myself yearning for something, drawn towards it, living in all the desire for it and then would occasionally have the opportunity to do it and be given these chances. Some of it, I think I got lucky, like they didn't even know what Dawson's Creek was. I did a Vin Wenders movie. I couldn't believe that I'd been cast by Vin Wenders. I was like, well, this is it. I quit. I'm going to fold my cards. This hand is too good. And then he saw a picture of me from Dawson's Creek or something. And he was like, oh, if I had known, I would not have cast. Oh, no.

• 46:57Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's kind of the point I'm circling.

• 46:59Speaker 03

  So I think I probably was up against something externally, but internally, it was just a very pure yearning on my part to make contact with other kinds of work and other kinds of human experiences. So much of it is just staying in the game and staying calm and staying patient.

• 47:18Dax Shepard?

  And then there's a serendipitous and domino effect, which is Me Without You. A.V. Kaufman had seen that. Is that true?

• 47:25Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't know. Is that?

• 47:27Dax Shepard?

  I read that A.V. Kaufman had seen that and that was what urged her to push for you in Brokeback Mountain.

• 47:33Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. Then I owe somebody a thank you. I did not know that.

• 47:37Dax Shepard?

  Maybe that's true or maybe it's not true. Half the stuff I read is not true. Oh, Station Agent, that's a big fun movie that you did in that period at Dawson. Did you fall in love with Dinklage the way my wife did?

• 47:49Speaker 03

  Everybody does.

• 47:49Dax Shepard?

  There's a handful of folks and he is definitely at the top of that list.

• 47:53Speaker 03

  A magnetic human being.

• 47:54Dax Shepard?

  Powerful charisma. She is head over heels.

• 48:00Dax Shepard?

  If I were to pass in a fiery crash, her first phone call, I don't know if he's wet or not, but I think it would be to him.

• 48:05Speaker 03

  He's wedded and he's childhood.

• 48:08Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay. Blended family.

• 48:10Speaker 03

  Like we said, friendship can be deep.

• 48:13Dax Shepard?

  When you're making Brokeback, are you sensing what it is? You don't know about you, but I do some things and I thought they were gonna be great. And then some things I thought were gonna be bad and then they're good. I don't know that I'm a very good barometer when I'm inside of something.

• 48:24Speaker 03

  I still feel like that. I'm like, well, who knows? Because an ecstatic experience doesn't always relate to a great thing and a terrible experience. And as you're like, they polished that turd. It's so hard to, when you're in something, really have an idea of how it's going to be received. I would say impossible. And at that point, I hadn't really been in anything either that had enjoyed a reception. So it certainly wasn't on my mind.

• 48:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you get nominated for Academy Award at the end of it all.

• 48:52Speaker 03

  Not what I was thinking.

• 48:54Dax Shepard?

  Although, one thing can happen, I've never met Ang Lee, but did you sense from him, he had a spirit that was special and that somehow that was going to be present in the product?

• 49:06Speaker 03

  For sure. I mean, he's such a beautiful artist and has this incredible body of work and the Annie Proust story that it's based on. And then the adaptation, it's undeniable material. And so brought together under Ang Lee, probably is gonna be a good thing, but would anyone see it? It's about gay men, which was not really being done.

• 49:25Dax Shepard?

  We're in a post-Brokeback Mountain world where we take for granted that story could be successful, but prior to that, we don't have that.

• 49:32Speaker 03

  That was a first.

• 49:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I don't know if you're comfortable talking about Heath, but I feel obligated to say that I knew him a little bit when he was getting sober. And I don't know that I've ever fallen in love with someone so quickly. This is one of the most special boys I've ever met, and I can feel the weight of the world on him in a very special way that kind of broke my heart. I was very, very sad and I thought he was just so special.

• 50:01Speaker 03

  So special.

• 50:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:02Speaker 03

  So special.

• 50:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:03Speaker 03

  Thank God there's.

• 50:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  So special.

• 50:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, thank God there's Matilda.

• 50:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what a guy. I feel very lucky that I, yeah, just got to, there's like a handful of people I've met like that in my life where I'm just like, oh, wow, there's something, there's this a heart here that's just leaking out everywhere.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  And incredible sensitivity.

• 50:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Great taste in motorcycles, too. He had a 2006 sport 1000 yellow. That's what I also drive.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's what you drive? Wow. Look at that. But also with Brokeback, all of you guys turned out to be huge stars, and not just stars, the best of the best as far as acting accolades. And it's fun to me that he obviously could see that in all of you and put this cast together.

• 50:50Dax Shepard?

  It wasn't an obvious cast. You now take for granted, it feels like it was an obvious cast because you've seen the proof that everyone was brilliant, but it's not an obvious cast.

• 50:59Speaker 03

  It's a really beautiful way to look at it. I like that.

• 51:03Dax Shepard?

  How was the life-altering shift of you're gonna be at the Academy Awards? Was that a natural transition?

• 51:10Speaker 03

  Knowing with a baby, but I suppose maybe it's a good thing about being young is that you don't have so much life experience that you can contextualize things. So you're really just going with the flow.

• 51:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because I was gonna say another theme I see present when I look at your life in its totality, and I doubt you reflect back on it in its totality, but you have had many moments where you seem to have an incredibly healthy relationship with the job. Because I think having a baby on the heels of an Academy Award nomination, most people are like, okay, give me the list of all the directors I can now work with, and it's time to go. And that seems like a very healthy relationship that you were like, no, it's time to have a baby.

• 51:51Speaker 03

  Kids are such great life checkers. They force you to put your best self in front of them. You can't abdicate your life and your work and your own desires, but you do have to put them in check and figure out which master you're going to serve. Because the truth is, if work is going well, somebody else is taking care of the kids. And if you're in a high point with your kids, the work is shoved to the side. So you can't be equally good at them at the exact same time. And you have to allow for that give and take, but then also replenish the other things. If you have a big period of being at home, you Need to go back to what you've left unattended and put some light over there. So I think it's just this constant back and forth, but making sure that you don't leave

• 52:36Speaker 03

  one of them unattended for too long.

• 52:38Dax Shepard?

  This is my main thing I've taken from parenting is it right-sized all my other concerns and pursuits in a very helpful way, ironically. I kind of thought, oh, you have kids, I'll be so distracted, there'll be no time. It's like, oh, no, no, actually, I will now approach the work with kind of the stakes that it deserves, which is I like to do this and maybe I'm good at it, but it's not anymore the most important thing. And there's some liberation in that. I think it's been helpful for me work-wise.

• 53:09Speaker 03

  My best day with my children is better than my best day at work. I am more thrilled with that high than I am with a work high. So I return to that feeling, you know, when am I really, really at my happiest? And it's when I feel like things are going well with my kids. I've got them in a good place and they're feeling understood.

• 53:31Dax Shepard?

  And how about just the notion that your best day at work is you accomplish the thing you had hoped to accomplish. Your best day at work isn't when someone else in a scene was their best ever, but weirdly, the joy of the kids is like, they do something, right? It's not like your best day is because you were your best self. It's just they do something that's so spectacular and you feel so lucky to have witnessed it. It's kind of the opposite.

• 53:52Speaker 03

  I used to say to them, it tastes better to me when you eat it.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so sweet.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  And that's kind of the feeling that I get with them. But again, I want them to see their mom working, all of my kids. So it's not something that I want to neglect for too long, but the kids really pull at you more convincingly.

• 54:12Speaker 01

  Did you always know you wanted to have kids? Some women, they're five and they're like, I know I'm going to be doing this.

• 54:19Speaker 03

  I think I always just assumed that I would, but I wasn't a natural babysitter or have a lot of dollies. That wasn't my thing, but I just assumed, yeah, I'm going to be a mom. But I really wanted to be like a mom of a teenager. I was like, teenage girl.

• 54:33Dax Shepard?

  You wanted to go to the mall with a teenage daughter.

• 54:35Speaker 03

  I just wanted to do it right. I just wanted to be like in there with her and understanding her and taking her side. That's where I wanted to be.

• 54:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. It's about the, yeah, whatever. I could go six hours on kids.

• 54:47Speaker 03

  Same. Can we do like a sidebar?

• 54:49Dax Shepard?

  We should do like a kid podcast. Some of the stuff that I think gives people anxiety about having kids is my absolute favorite stuff. Once they have some shit to get into, I'm like, let's party. I've done it all. I've fucked up in every way possible. It's go time. It's so rewarding.

• 55:04Speaker 03

  I similarly learned by parenting, oh, actually, when I make mistakes in front of my daughter and own up to them and apologize, it teaches her to make mistakes and say, oopsie, mommy, I'm sorry. And it's not a big deal. It's a part of life and we move on.

• 55:24Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 55:24Speaker 03

  No shame, no blame, just, you made a mistake. Beautiful. I made five already today.

• 55:30Dax Shepard?

  I'm not gonna blame anyone in my parenting circle, but I could not make a mistake. Maybe it was self-imposed. If I fucked something up, I would just lie.

• 55:38Speaker 03

  Obviously. Yeah.

• 55:40Dax Shepard?

  I know, and the fact that my kids fuck shit up and then they come tell me and I'm like, oh my God, this is incredible. They're better than me. I was hiding things I broke.

• 55:49Speaker 03

  That's because you thought there was a reason to hide things, something that you were afraid of.

• 55:54Dax Shepard?

  Well, again, it's not her fault, but single mom, three kids, it was fucking chaotic. I couldn't put anything on her plate. I just did not want to be another burden in her very burdened life. So I think kind of self-imposed.

• 56:08Speaker 03

  But then you corrected it. Now your kids pass that on and it stops with you.

• 56:12Dax Shepard?

  At least that one part.

• 56:13Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 56:13Dax Shepard?

  I catch myself all the time. Do you do this? This is last night. I catch myself being annoying in the exact same way my mom and dad were annoying to me. I wanna play and I'm always petting their hair or I'm pulling their ear and most of the time they like it. And then a lot of times they'd look at me and I'm like, oh my God, I know this so well. This is my dad, like, just fucking watch TV. Why do you need my attention right now? Just watch TV.

• 56:36Speaker 03

  But it's so hard not to fondle their little tendrils of hair on their head.

• 56:41Dax Shepard?

  Their little earlobes are so soft.

• 56:46Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I have selfish questions. When you did Synecdoche, I can't pronounce it.

• 56:50Speaker 03

  Synecdoche?

• 56:51Dax Shepard?

  Synecdoche?

• 56:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, you got it, yeah.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  I saw that at the Cannes Film Festival.

• 56:55Speaker 03

  I saw it. I was there in college. I studied abroad at the Cannes Film Festival and we snuck our way into some of the movies.

• 57:00Dax Shepard?

  Were you there?

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 57:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was there.

• 57:03Dax Shepard?

  Did you get a picture of her?

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Probably from very, very far away.

• 57:08Dax Shepard?

  What is Charlie Kaufman like? I've never met him and I only have adaptation to work off of.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  I wish that I could be the person to answer that question for you and give you the fulfillment and satisfaction, but what is Charlie Kaufman like? Other than an artist without parallel, but I can't get in there. I don't know.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a big one.

• 57:29Dax Shepard?

  I want to have a dinner with him and I would be nervous too. Okay, Blue Valentine, I know you already talked about this a lot. This is 15 years old. But I'm still fascinated by the notion that you guys were urged to live together for a month before filming.

• 57:42Speaker 03

  We took a break in the filming. We shot the first part when they're young and in love and everything's going really well. And then we took a two week break. And we lived together, office hours, baby, like nine to five.

• 57:51Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 57:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Not cohabitating.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  Professional situation. So we did these improvisations during the day, honestly, to figure out ways to annoy each other.

• 58:00Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 58:01Speaker 03

  And to destroy this thing that we had made. Because we weren't even going to take that break, but we were having such a hard time letting go of the thing that we loved. Derek was like, we gotta mess this up and we need to burn it down. And we did a ceremonial, burned our wedding photo. And then we learned how to annoy each other.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  That movie is so perfect.

• 58:23Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 58:24Dax Shepard?

  I mean, it's incredible.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  It's so heavy and beautiful.

• 58:28Dax Shepard?

  Were you on your own for these eight hour improv things?

• 58:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, a lot of it. Derek, the director, would come in and give us a kind of...

• 58:36Dax Shepard?

  Scenario?

• 58:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then we would be left to do it. And then he would say, after you've had this frustrating day, now you're going to go take your daughter to the amusement park and try and have a good time.

• 58:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 58:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's fun. I don't know if anybody could work like that again because you've got a crew that's on hold. You're paying people. I mean, it was such a small movie, so, so low budget and a small crew, but you're taking a big down period in the middle of the thing. And to what end? Playing, you know, exploring? Try and justify that to it. Producer. But that's what we did.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  You get it in the movie.

• 59:05Dax Shepard?

  That would be a big challenge for me because I just want you to like me, especially if we met two months ago.

• 59:11Speaker 03

  I know. It was horrible. I don't want to give you reasons to hate me.

• 59:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, those will come in a couple of years.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  Or like figure out it's like obnoxious. Yeah. We were having such a good time. The party has to be over so soon.

• 59:20Dax Shepard?

  That's kind of heartbreaking.

• 59:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was.

• 59:22Dax Shepard?

  Was it rough, that second half? Were you feeling the heartbreak of that?

• 59:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really was. And I was younger then. And a hard day at work for me now. I feel it and I go through it, but I definitely know that I get to go home. I can really close the door on it. When I was younger, it would definitely seep under the door.

• 59:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I can imagine coming home and feeling heartbroken or not liked, maybe.

• 59:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:45Dax Shepard?

  My worst fear.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Also, such a magnifying glass on your flaws. Did you learn about your own flaws via this?

• 59:52Speaker 03

  I was like, you don't have to hate me. Now I hate me because I'm annoying and we are calling forth to all of our worst qualities and now you can't hate me more than I hate myself. That's intense.

• 1:00:03Dax Shepard?

  Back to Charlie Kaufman. If I had a list, it'd be really hard, but definitely in the top for me would be Eternal Sunshine. Just for the scene at the end when she's like, no, but I'll annoy you and I'll do this and you'll do that and I'll hate this. And he goes, yeah, I know. And I still want to. And I was like, oh my God. It was so heartbreaking.

• 1:00:24Speaker 03

  Well, it's like the end of Some Like Hot. And he's like, but I'm this and I'm this. I'm a man. And he says, well, nobody's perfect. Yeah.

• 1:00:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I know. Because when you're young, oh man, you can get annoyed. And then in retrospect, you're like, what was that?

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Well, it's just that there's no one you're going to meet who doesn't annoy you. Everyone is annoying.

• 1:00:46Speaker 03

  When you're young.

• 1:00:47Dax Shepard?

  Michelle, if you heard me, and you'll hear me when we live in the bus together.

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:00:51Dax Shepard?

  In the morning. Me starting this machine up, sometimes I hear myself. I'm pretty immune to it. I'm clearing my throat and I'm coughing. And sometimes I'll just be at the mirror and I'm like, my family, what they hear every morning from me and that they still love me is a miracle.

• 1:01:08Speaker 03

  And actually, it's not but, it's with. That actually, that is exactly who they love. It's inclusive of that. It's because of that.

• 1:01:17Dax Shepard?

  In spite of it.

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  No, not in spite, it's because. These are the human pieces. Yeah, when you love somebody, you have to take the whole pie. And so it's a because. So enjoy your ability and the way that they love you in that moment, because they do.

• 1:01:32Dax Shepard?

  And they have so much fun making fun of me about it.

• 1:01:34Speaker 03

  That's the beauty.

• 1:01:35Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now, I already learned that this is not going to be the case, but it would appear again that you're in a very popular thing and then you do a bunch of kind of smaller things. Then we go to Oz the Great and Powerful. You had not done a big ass movie like that in a long time. Was that seemingly abrupt?

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  No, I was dying to do that. I had an eight-year-old daughter and I was gonna play Glinda the Good Witch. I've cooked up a real steak for us on this one, darling.

• 1:02:03Speaker 03

  Wait till you come to mommy's job and you go to the costume department and we put some rhinestones on your face.

• 1:02:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Speaker 03

  There's a flying monkey. This is gonna be so fun. And we had the best time. We lived in Detroit and she went to school there.

• 1:02:19Dax Shepard?

  Where? What town?

• 1:02:21Speaker 03

  We were in Birmingham and she went to Roper.

• 1:02:25Speaker 03

  You know about Roper?

• 1:02:26Dax Shepard?

  You've heard this story. In fifth grade, a teacher said, he's not dumb, he's really, really smart. There's a school Roper that could tend to his needs. You have to take an IQ test to get in. I got in. My dad said, no fucking way is he going to school with eggheads. And he pulled the plug on that. So I didn't go, but Roper's the thing I always wanted to go to.

• 1:02:43Speaker 03

  Should've been you.

• 1:02:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Was it special?

• 1:02:46Speaker 03

  It was a great school. Boy, oh, boy. I thought, well, maybe we should just live in Detroit. We're very happy here. We still have friends from that time, people that we're still in touch with. We lived in a neighborhood. We lived in a house. We had a community. I had friends. She had friends. And I was a fairy princess every day. So it was great. And it was directed by the wonderful Sam Raimi, who gave Matilda the best experience. He would let her call action and she would sit in the director's chair and she would come and he would say, there is my most honored guest, Matilda. Make way, everyone.

• 1:03:19Speaker 03

  I'm always impressed when people are in circumstances where they have so much going on. They see an opportunity for somebody who needs a little extra and they go to it, even though they have their hands full. And he did that day in, day out.

• 1:03:30Dax Shepard?

  Do you do any lake business? Do you get on the lakes at all?

• 1:03:33Speaker 03

  Michigan, lake life. Yes, we did.

• 1:03:37Dax Shepard?

  Isn't it Eden?

• 1:03:38Speaker 03

  Are we living the wrong life? Dax is adjusting.

• 1:03:41Dax Shepard?

  We're finishing a house right now on a lake in Nashville.

• 1:03:44Speaker 03

  Lake life.

• 1:03:44Dax Shepard?

  Just got our first pontoon boat.

• 1:03:46Speaker 03

  Man, you guys really figured it out, didn't you?

• 1:03:48Dax Shepard?

  I don't want to make you jealous.

• 1:03:50Speaker 03

  You can still do it. I saw that bus and I'm jealous.

• 1:03:53Dax Shepard?

  That bus is driving to the lake house in June.

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  How long does that take?

• 1:03:57Dax Shepard?

  Well, we had to stop in Idaho for two days. We sleep in the Walmart parking lot in the bus.

• 1:04:02Speaker 03

  I'm so happy for you and jealous for me.

• 1:04:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you're invited.

• 1:04:09Speaker 03

  I can't even tell you how into this I am. I once, for Thanksgiving, rented an RV in Nevada, drove with Matilda to spend Thanksgiving at the animal shelter, where you could sleep with a variety of animals in your room.

• 1:04:24Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:04:25Speaker 03

  Pigs. Oh. Yes, we did. Dogs. Yes, we did. Cats. You could have animal sleepovers. Wow. So we did an animal sleepover, animal sanctuary Thanksgiving, and then we went to Zion in our RV. Have you done that park?

• 1:04:41Dax Shepard?

  Not in the RV, but yes, I've been to Zion.

• 1:04:43Speaker 03

  What a place. But I thought I had done enough by renting an RV. I was like, pretty good. Look at me, I'm driving an RV. No, you need to check clearances? You have to check park entrance and exit time? I hadn't really masterminded the situation and then found corkscrewing down to the bottom of Zion and our RV wasn't allowed to pass back up for our sunset horseback ride because of a height requirement. And I was like, no, this isn't happening.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:05:17Speaker 03

  I have taken on more than I should have. But I want to get back into the RV life, but I'm a little.

• 1:05:23Dax Shepard?

  But Michelle, it's exactly back to being a kid and crossing the stream because numerous times we are in that bus and I'm getting into a tighter and tighter and tighter situation. And I'll say out loud, I don't know, guys, we may be backing down this mountain and that thrill of will we get through? It's exhilarating.

• 1:05:40Speaker 03

  That was me. I love that life. I want that life. And just as a little sidebar tidbit, I think you'll appreciate it. In COVID, we had had a baby and because of COVID, my mother hadn't been able to meet the baby. And she decided she was fed up with that. And they had a little boat and they sold their little boat and instead they bought a camper, attached it to their pickup and they drove from Seattle, Washington to upstate New York so that they could meet the baby.

• 1:06:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:06:10Speaker 03

  Deep COVID. She had packed the freezer with enough food to last for a week, didn't enter a grocery store, rest, stop, anything. RV lifed all the way.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 1:06:19Speaker 03

  I know. It's in my blood.

• 1:06:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You come by it honest.

• 1:06:25Dax Shepard?

  Okay. After The Oz and Powerful, you do two Broadway shows. You won a Tony for Blackbird.

• 1:06:31Speaker 03

  Just nominated.

• 1:06:32Dax Shepard?

  You were just nominated?

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm sorry to correct that.

• 1:06:34Dax Shepard?

  No, you won.

• 1:06:35Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  Maybe it's a premonition. Maybe it's coming up.

• 1:06:37Dax Shepard?

  You love that? The schedule for me seems very scary.

• 1:06:40Speaker 03

  It's a terrible schedule. But when your children grow up and they aren't as able to drop into the Roper School for half a year and they really need to put roots down, you realize, oh, like I'm a plane that's been grounded. We have to give her a sense of permanence and structure and dependability, so I need to work from home. And it looks like that Broadway is not going anywhere. So is this something that I can learn in enough time to figure out how to do it and make it a part of my life so that I can have the opportunity to work from home?

• 1:07:10Dax Shepard?

  That's what drove that decision. And then you were great at that. Fuck. An asshole.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you think, okay, earlier, just four minutes ago, you said you'd bit off more than you could chew with the RV. Is that a motto?

• 1:07:22Speaker 03

  Yes, that's me.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  I'm feeling this as a through line. You just take on a lot.

• 1:07:26Speaker 03

  That's how I like to do things. Figure it out while I'm plummeting, which I honestly really do relate to that childhood and nature. I really see a direct correlation from that kind of risk taking to the kind of risk taking that I enjoy in my work. Because in my life, I'm not like a thrill person, or a roller coaster person, or highs kind of person. But I enjoy it in my work. And I think it's because I learned it as a child.

• 1:07:49Dax Shepard?

  Is your hack to just commit to it before you actually think you can do it?

• 1:07:53Speaker 03

  Some things I look at, I'm like, I have no idea. There's no spark. The rest of the time, there's a tiny little spark and then a big cloud around it. But it's the spark that I stay connected to. And that's what makes me say, I'll try. But there has to be just this teeny tiny little mustard seed.

• 1:08:11Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:08:18Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Skims. Okay, I have a confession. I genuinely love matching pajamas. It's the best part of Christmas morning, really. Everyone in the same matching set looking ridiculously cute in front of the tree.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  I love matching pajamas. I'm literally going to be in coordinating sets with all my friends this holiday season because I got them, spoiler to my friends who are listening, the same Skims pajama set I've been living in. They are so soft and cozy and they look cute. So you can leave the house and go get a late night hot chocolate and be cozy.

• 1:08:53Dax Shepard?

  It's so great how Skims has sets for everyone, too. Women's, men's, kids, even your pets. So nobody in your life has to be left out this year.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  I have a bunch of different pajama sets. One of my favorite is the organic cotton sleep long sleeve set.

• 1:09:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay, tell me more.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  So comfortable, very chic, too. The top is a button down, but very, very soft, easy to sleep in. But as I said before, you can multi-purpose this and look super cute.

• 1:09:22Dax Shepard?

  Hot chocolate runs. It's like the pajamas we grew up in, except without the scratchy polyester that made opening presents feel more like a hot yoga class that nobody signed up for.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  All the nostalgia, none of the discomfort. Shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select Armchair Expert in the dropdown menu that follows. If you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday Shop is now open at skims.com.

• 1:09:51Dax Shepard?

  This episode is supported by Helix.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode? Between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything. Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.

• 1:10:05Dax Shepard?

  It really is the foundation. And I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes and they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip, it's a real match. I have a midnight mattress and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds recently.

• 1:10:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  That doesn't have a Helix mattress on it and I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.

• 1:10:39Dax Shepard?

  Temperature was all over the map.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  It was a mess.

• 1:10:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  I need a new one.

• 1:10:42Dax Shepard?

  Look, they've got over 20 mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365 night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic, the experts agree.

• 1:11:03Dax Shepard?

  Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. Helixsleep.com/armchair.

• 1:11:21Dax Shepard?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every family has that one holiday tradition nobody actually enjoys, but everyone keeps doing because stopping it would feel like a federal offense. For me, it was a specific meal situation that I will not name because my family listens. But at some point, you have to ask yourself, am I doing this because I love it? Or because I'm afraid of what happens if I don't?

• 1:11:44Speaker 01

  Yes, and that question applies to so much more than the holidays. I think a lot of us carry these invisible rules about how we're supposed to spend the holidays. We're supposed to see what it's supposed to look like. And when you start unpacking that with a therapist, you realize half of your stress is coming from rules you didn't even write.

• 1:12:00Dax Shepard?

  This is where BetterHelp can be a great resource during the holidays. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, which means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  I just love therapy. I've been avoiding it recently, or not avoiding it, but I was like, oh, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. I haven't canceled, canceled, canceled, but then I-

• 1:12:27Dax Shepard?

  You start feeling it.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, because then I had it this past weekend and I was like, oh my God. And just thank God, thank God for her. Yeah.

• 1:12:35Dax Shepard?

  BetterHelp is now in-network with more than 125 health plans, with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/dax. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash DAX. We get support from our sponsor, Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundo or for Gleepran. Foundo is a once-daily prescription GLP-1 medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight

• 1:13:19Dax Shepard?

  who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

• 1:13:24Speaker 04

  Foundo should not be used with other GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Foundo is safe and effective for use in children. Don't take Foundo if you're allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. Serious side effects may include inflamed pancreas and gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes, if you're nursing, pregnant, plant to be, or taking birth control pills, and before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. Taking Foundo with an insulin or sulfonylurea may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and may cause kidney problems. Once daily Foundo is available by prescription only

• 1:14:06Speaker 04

  in 0.8 mg, 2.5 mg, 5.5 mg, 9 mg, 14.5 mg, and 17.2 mg tablets. Learn more at foundo.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX. Now is perfect to talk to your doctor about Foundo.

• 1:14:28Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now my favorite thing you ever did was Manchester by the Sea.

• 1:14:31Speaker 03

  That is so funny.

• 1:14:32Dax Shepard?

  You liked to suffer. That's all I can conclude. You're like, it's been a minute since I suffered.

• 1:14:36Speaker 03

  No, no, you're skimming over dick and lots of fun things in there. Lots of laughs.

• 1:14:42Dax Shepard?

  Boy, that movie. Have you already figured out how to not let things seep in at that point?

• 1:14:46Speaker 03

  That was harder.

• 1:14:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you guys are both so fucking heartbreaking and good in that movie. Okay, Fosse, Verden, Incredible, won an Emmy and a Golden Globe. Well done.

• 1:14:55Speaker 03

  I feel like this is in memoriam or something. I'm like, have I come to the end of the...

• 1:15:00Dax Shepard?

  Do you want to hear the funniest two-minute story about the in memoriam? I've only been to the Oscars one time. We went long ago, and I directed a car chase movie with Kristen for a million dollars. Very few people saw, and I worship Brad Pitt. Would do anything to make out with him. And I've gone out to go to the bathroom, and I'm coming back. And I've never met Brad at that point. I've come up my aisle, and I'm walking towards my seat. And as I'm getting close to Kristen, she goes, "He's talking to you." I go, "What?" She goes, "Brad Pitt is talking to you." And I turn around, and he's like three rows ahead. He's standing, and he says, "We loved your movie." At that moment, I kind of forget I've even made a movie. And I go, "What movie?" And he goes, "Hit and Run. We love Hit and Run." I can't believe this is happening.

• 1:15:44Dax Shepard?

  I sit down. Kristen's like, "Oh, my God. Are you so..." I go, "I can't." I'm smiling so big, and they immediately start the in memoriam.

• 1:15:54Dax Shepard?

  I can't stop smiling. I'm the happiest I've been since I got into this business. And Kristin looks at me, she goes, stop, like, I'm so happy everyone died.

• 1:16:05Speaker 03

  Oh, they cut to you.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:07Dax Shepard?

  They could have ended my life if they just cut to me. I am glowing in that moment. And it's all the people are dying and I'm so happy.

• 1:16:16Speaker 03

  That's amazing. Thank you for that. And I can't wait to see the movie.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  It's like, what's wrong with him?

• 1:16:21Dax Shepard?

  You gotta get the B roll from that fucking award. I would kill for that footage. It's just me so fucking happy.

• 1:16:27Speaker 03

  I can see it now.

• 1:16:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay. So again, now here's another moment where it appears that you have a really, really impossibly healthy relationship, which is you take a two and a half year break after fablements.

• 1:16:38Speaker 03

  Had another baby. That definitely imposes.

• 1:16:40Dax Shepard?

  Do you love being pregnant?

• 1:16:41Speaker 03

  I'm very lucky. I have totally manageable pregnancies.

• 1:16:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. Kristin loves it.

• 1:16:46Speaker 03

  You're gonna have another baby.

• 1:16:47Dax Shepard?

  I have a vasectomy. If we have one, it won't be mine, but I'll raise it with love and understanding.

• 1:16:52Speaker 03

  I know you would on the bus. I have in the past taken off pretty big chunks of time because when you work 15 hours a day for six months on something, you really need to slow down and recharge and reestablish your routines in your life. And then in there, there was COVID and two strikes.

• 1:17:09Dax Shepard?

  You picked a good time to take a break.

• 1:17:11Speaker 03

  A whole host of things. Yeah, I was really thrilled when we had a baby and COVID. That really livened things up. I was like, welcome to the quarantine. Snuck you in.

• 1:17:20Dax Shepard?

  So you know, we're not always home all day long, but currently we are.

• 1:17:25Speaker 03

  For the next year and a half, you're gonna think life works like this.

• 1:17:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Do you have the tension? I know Kristin does a bit. I know a lot of working moms do where it's like, when you're working a lot, you have some guilt about parenting. And then when you're parenting a lot, you have some guilt about not working.

• 1:17:39Speaker 03

  I'm starting a job on Sunday and it hurts. I don't know that I would call it guilt necessarily. It hurts me and it feels biologically incorrect that I am going to spend this certain amount of time away from my children. But it feels like the correct model to give them. So it hurts my heart, but my head, I think, understands it. Then when I'm with them, I just try to let them feel my full presence so that when I'm not with them, I can really extract and go do the work that I need to do in the way that I need to do it. It's like a back and forth. It's not how I would like to live. I'm very creature of habit. It's hard for me to jump in and out all the time.

• 1:18:21Speaker 03

  But that's what I tell myself is how to just kind of manage my feelings around it.

• 1:18:26Dax Shepard?

  That sounds like a very good framing of it, which is it's fine to hurt, but the guilt and the judgment's not part of it. That's kind of how guys have gotten it for a long time, which is no guy feels guilty that he's going to work. Societally, he's never been asked to feel guilty about that. He should feel proud of that. But you feel sad that you're not with your kids.

• 1:18:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, it does a few things. For a long time, as a single mother, that was how I supported us. So of course, it's in total utter necessity. It is how our life runs. And now, being in a marriage, I contribute to my family and to mainly the desires and needs and what I want to put in front of my children. But I also am leaving a record of who I am and who I was and the things that I was interested in. Because you know, when you're a kid, you look at your parents and you're like, you're my mom.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:20Dax Shepard?

  You don't have any desires or passions or dreams.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  You were born to be my mom, and that's it.

• 1:19:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I throw a plate on the floor and...

• 1:19:29Dax Shepard?

  You deal with it.

• 1:19:30Speaker 03

  You kind of deal with it. So I've often thought about work as a way to leave a record for my children. Should they want to pick it up about who I was in my entirety? Mothering is the large piece of the pie, but there are other aspects. What if we don't have enough time to get to know each other more completely? If you want to pick up some artifacts along the way, these parts were also me.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  I was just listening to Malcolm Gladwell talking about this, but he might have been referencing someone else. He was talking about the passing of his father. And he said, "I know him better now than I did when he was alive." Which is such a beautiful thing that you can keep knowing these people in ways you could never have known them when they were your mom or dad.

• 1:20:14Speaker 03

  This is why I save my journals and all my stuff and just think, you might not be curious about it at all.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:20Speaker 03

  You might be like, yeah, no, I had enough of her.

• 1:20:23Dax Shepard?

  I think of that all the time because I've journaled every single day for the last almost 21 years as a sobriety commitment. Often I'm journaling and I'm not editing for them. And then I think they will one day have all these and they can read all them. And then I go, they're not even gonna open one of them up like that.

• 1:20:39Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  I think they will. I would.

• 1:20:42Dax Shepard?

  I'd like to read what my dad was feeling like at my exact age.

• 1:20:45Speaker 03

  I would.

• 1:20:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay, dying for sex. In this two and a half year break, this got to you. Was it a spec at that time or it was already set up?

• 1:20:53Speaker 03

  It was a podcast and then Liz Meriwether had written one script. So there was just a pilot episode and the podcast. And the one-two punch of them, I was like, oh, there's the spark and the cloud. And now I have to go figure this thing out. But then I got pregnant again and so it put it on a hiatus. And then after I was through postpartum and breastfeeding fog and all that stuff, I picked up the phone and I was like, did they ever make that show I really wanted to do? Who did that? And they said, no one. And I was like, oh, great. Then Liz and I picked up our conversation again and never stopped.

• 1:21:25Dax Shepard?

  I did a show for her for two years. She's a Michigander.

• 1:21:28Speaker 03

  Oh, that's right.

• 1:21:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. What a sense of humor.

• 1:21:31Speaker 03

  My God.

• 1:21:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:32Speaker 03

  It is unstoppable.

• 1:21:36Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:21:36Speaker 03

  Even at times where it may or may not be.

• 1:21:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. It's rare you're afraid a woman will get canceled. Let's just say that. I think that's the best way I can euphemistically say it's very rare to be around a woman.

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Good for her.

• 1:21:47Dax Shepard?

  And I'm like, oh, you, oh, you, okay.

• 1:21:48Speaker 03

  I'm gonna go back to Brooklyn and give her that warning.

• 1:21:52Dax Shepard?

  You've had a lot of brave roles, but this one, there's so much sex in it. There's so much sexuality.

• 1:21:58Speaker 03

  You're all.

• 1:21:59Dax Shepard?

  And forget the sexuality. I can hook up with people. That's fine. So much masturbation.

• 1:22:03Speaker 03

  So much.

• 1:22:04Dax Shepard?

  We were just discussing this on a different episode where I was like, as liberated as I am sexually, when I've been caught jerking off, not hiding the fact that I jerk off, but getting caught is really humiliating.

• 1:22:16Speaker 03

  Well, even that you're using the word caught.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly.

• 1:22:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, if someone walks in and you're doing it, I'm humiliated. So for me, singing and masturbating on camera would be rough.

• 1:22:27Speaker 03

  I'm gonna write you a part where you get to do both.

• 1:22:31Speaker 03

  At the same time.

• 1:22:35Dax Shepard?

  Oh, look, I did it. I gotta do the comedic version.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  You're so brave.

• 1:22:39Dax Shepard?

  Did that stuff spook you or do you commit to it and then you're like, I'll just come to terms with that when we start shooting? Or what was that?

• 1:22:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, I actually think that's a pretty good way to put it. I'm not gonna let small fears get in my way because I want the totality of it. And if there are some things along the way that make me a little bit uncomfortable, I'm gonna figure out a way through them.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  It's kind of the theme of the show.

• 1:23:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, it really is.

• 1:23:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so your character has previously had cancer, went into remission. And in the pilot, we learn that your cancer's back. And in fact, it's metastasized and you have stage four. Now, this is one of the heartbreaking parts of the show. I love Jay Duplass.

• 1:23:18Speaker 03

  He's the best.

• 1:23:19Dax Shepard?

  He's such a wonderful, wonderful guy. I hated to have to see him be a very annoying husband who I'm rooting for you to leave.

• 1:23:29Speaker 03

  And he's weirdly so good at it, even though he's the most menshy, wonderful human. He has really studied the other side and come back to stick it to them in the form of this character. You're like, oh, the good guy, you know, the good husband who really is actually just afraid of your inherent feminine power and ideas and intelligence, but has somehow managed to get along under the guise of good guy. There are so many scenarios in the show and so many different sexual encounters and positions that I've never found myself in working on a TV show before. And so my memories of it are so strong because humor is such a grounding force for a memory.

• 1:24:13Speaker 03

  You don't want to remember the thing that's so sad. You want to remember the thing that has humor attached to it. And my recall for certain pieces of work can be so spotty. And this, I can bring it all back in my mind because I was like, oh, that was that wonderful actor that I peed on. I'll never, ever, ever forget him. It's so. Indelible because they are all first time experiences and they're all with the baseline of Liz's dangerous sense of humor.

• 1:24:40Dax Shepard?

  That's what I love. It feels very dangerous, which is my favorite humor.

• 1:24:44Speaker 03

  I really have to tell Liz to watch out for herself because she's got like a whip on her pen or something.

• 1:24:49Dax Shepard?

  So your character has also not been intimate with her husband for two years, I think we learned in the show, maybe even three.

• 1:24:55Speaker 03

  She's gone through a diagnosis and breast reconstruction and a huge medical process and she desires connection and pleasure and satisfaction even with her husband. And he's no longer able to see her as a sexual being. She's a patient for him.

• 1:25:14Dax Shepard?

  And even worse, maybe like a Moon Chausson, a source of confirming his identity as the good guy.

• 1:25:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, the caretaker. And then she gets a terminal diagnosis in the midst of all of this, which is just a lightning bolt. And she cleaves her life down the center and splinters it off and gets in this little boat and off she goes and she grabs her best friend and she's like, we're moving away from here and we're going to go into uncharted territory and let's do it together.

• 1:25:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm not going to die alone, but I'm going to die with my best friend, Nikki.

• 1:25:46Speaker 03

  It's a podcast.

• 1:25:47Dax Shepard?

  Did you listen to it?

• 1:25:49Speaker 03

  I listened to the podcast twice and it just unraveled me. I was so overwhelmed with emotion, which is kind of an unusual experience. I don't want to cry. I don't really want to feel.

• 1:25:59Dax Shepard?

  You're satiated in that department, work wise?

• 1:26:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, a little work wise, personal. I can take it on, but I can more deal with it in my head or abstract suffering. That is something that now I process through my brain instead of my heart. And this show was like an arrow in me and I couldn't understand how it had bypassed all these defenses that I thought I had put up, gotten behind the wall. I think it was her bravery to live her death as she lived her life, which is to make it her own and to really open it up and look at death and look at how to stay creative inside of it, how to not become a fixed identity cancer patient. Once something so catastrophic happens to you, to fight for other aspects, to stay in that room, to be a whole person.

• 1:26:43Dax Shepard?

  Yet have another storyline going other than dying.

• 1:26:46Speaker 03

  Yes, even though you know that it's happening, which is really the storyline of all of our lives. Yeah, truly. The storyline of our life is dying. It's just a timeline issue, but we are able to kind of protect ourselves from it and pretend that it's far enough away that we don't need to deal with it or really even know what it is, what happens, what it looks like, what it feels like, and how you can be in charge of it.

• 1:27:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. How did it work? I stopped working in the era of intimacy coordinators. This one probably had a ton.

• 1:27:13Speaker 03

  That's why he stopped. You didn't want somebody telling you what you couldn't do. Hold on, I'm out.

• 1:27:22Dax Shepard?

  Had you worked with them before?

• 1:27:23Speaker 03

  No, I'd always just put on two pairs of pantyhose. You know what I mean?

• 1:27:26Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure. I always just gave the famous Jack Nicholson line. I'm sure you've heard it. Sorry if I get erect and sorry if I don't.

• 1:27:39Dax Shepard?

  Neither is good.

• 1:27:40Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 1:27:43Dax Shepard?

  Seventies.

• 1:27:43Speaker 03

  Wow. Yeah, right?

• 1:27:45Dax Shepard?

  Could you imagine if that was...

• 1:27:48Speaker 03

  Really no response to that. No, not at all. No, the times, they are a-changing.

• 1:27:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:53Speaker 03

  I really enjoyed it. I wasn't sure how I was gonna feel because I definitely don't like to be told what to do. I like to do my own thing. I just don't like things in my way. I like to have my space. And it truly was much more like the experience of having a choreographer who's really helping you and not schoolmarming you, who's really helping you to create a convincing simulation of something. Also to make sure, you know, if you get into this business, there's probably something wrong with you. I mean, it's the circus. You don't run away and join the circus if you're not running away from something. So I think that that means that performers bring with them a rich personal history. And I applaud this move forward. Maybe you don't need an intimacy coordinator,

• 1:28:37Speaker 03

  but you don't know what your co-star has been through. You don't know what your scene partner is dealing with. And this allows them the safety and dignity of being able to just tell one person what they can and cannot do and keep their job. So I'm all for it.

• 1:28:50Dax Shepard?

  That part's fantastic. I guess what scares me is you're already trying to do something that can't be choreographed in life. And you're trying to do it in this really crazy situation, in which there's cameras, there's 15 people in the room. So already for me, I'm fighting against the mechanization of this thing you're hoping to capture. I agree with everything you're saying. And I hope that I've always been really... Responsible and kind. And I've always just chatted with people beforehand, but I just feared this layer of, okay, now this whole thing has already been talked about, decided. How on earth will this look natural and fluid?

• 1:29:29Speaker 03

  I think, though, it can be adjusted and it can change, but there's one person who knows the safe word. Like, you might go to the intimacy coordinator and say,

• 1:29:36Dax Shepard?

  I wanna fuck.

• 1:29:38Speaker 03

  Well, you might go to the intimacy coordinator and say that. But, you know, you might say, nothing's off limits for me. I am completely comfortable and I have nothing that you need to know about. And so there's no workaround there. They're not like, well, you're not allowed to do that. It's just like if somebody else has boundaries, something that they don't want to show, something they don't want to touch, the intimacy coordinator protects that without it being obvious to the rest of the crew. Nope, so and so won't do that if they have a personal history. But the truly great thing about it, though, is because you are simulating something, you have to sell it for that lens. I might be doing what I think, but it's not translating because of where the camera is. So it's not selling that this thing is actually happening. And one of the things I thought was so valuable with intimacy coordinator

• 1:30:20Speaker 03

  is she could help you sell it to a frame. Jay and I both know that I'm giving him a blowjob. We're fine with that. And we know what that might look like and what that might ask each of us to do. But we don't know how to simulate a blowjob. Totally. How do you not make it look like you're bobbing for apples? How do you create the proper tension? And now, this is a job that's been around for a while. When intimacy coordinators first came on the scene, you're like, you were a P A yesterday. Like, what do you mean you're the intimacy? Well, it's like the COVID officers, too. You're a COVID safety officer based on what?

• 1:30:50Dax Shepard?

  Because you had the Purell?

• 1:30:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, right. So they were these kind of made up jobs to meet a moment. But now, these jobs have become really fulfilled and filled by skilled, qualified people. And we really relied on her expertise.

• 1:31:06Dax Shepard?

  It's incredible. I'm blown away with your performance. I want to tell you one, it's not an intimacy coordinator, but it's one sex scene story of mine. I was doing something where I got to the point where the lawyer's talking about what can be shown. I'm not shy at all. My deepest insecurity, though, is that anyone would see my butthole. I don't want anyone to see my butthole. And I'll show you everything else. Zero self-consciousness. And I get into the scene. We're walking. Okay, you're gonna be on top of her. And I go, and where's the camera? And I see it's on the floor, looking up at the bed. And I'm on top. And it's gonna see my feet first. And I'm like, They're definitely gonna see my asshole. I know cameras work. And I'm like, oh, my God, they're gonna see my asshole. We do a take. It's a long take.

• 1:31:51Dax Shepard?

  And then I lay down for take two. I'm certain the whole crew just saw my butthole. And the director comes in and he takes a sheet and he moves it up. Just to cover my asshole. And I'm like, okay, that's confirmation. The entire gang just saw my butthole.

• 1:32:07Speaker 01

  See, the intimacy coordinator would have known.

• 1:32:10Dax Shepard?

  Might have been like, hold on.

• 1:32:11Speaker 01

  I think we might just need to bring the camera up just a bit.

• 1:32:14Speaker 03

  It's so hard to, because you know that that monitor is going out. There's taps all over the set. There's daily.

• 1:32:20Dax Shepard?

  Some editors like, we have butthole here.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  Cut. Okay.

• 1:32:25Dax Shepard?

  When I just felt this sheet be pushed up between my flex.

• 1:32:29Speaker 03

  Confirmation of your worst fear.

• 1:32:31Dax Shepard?

  Truly, I've learned throughout my life. I've been delusionally unaware that I'm 6'2", that I'm white, that I'm all these things. And so when the crew sees my butthole, I'm not in danger. There's nothing to be that afraid of for me. And so it is a completely different dynamic. Like, I can laugh about that, but it's a different scenario that, for years, I didn't really even take time to consider.

• 1:32:54Speaker 03

  Now, I always feel like the worst thing that can happen to you on a set is that you're gonna be embarrassed. Embarrassment, we can live with that. The stakes aren't as high as they are in real life. Look, the stakes are high because you want to do a good job and you want to get another job. And you want to continue to have a livelihood. But embarrassment, we can live with.

• 1:33:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The last thing I want to say about the sexuality in the show is what occurred to me midway through was, oh, this is distinctly female. I've grown up watching tons of different sex scenes in different movies. And they have almost been exclusively written by men or directed by men. And there was something very unique and tangible about this whole journey. That felt definitively female.

• 1:33:35Speaker 03

  Thank you. That's what we were going for. We were like, is there such a thing? Because the camera is the male gaze and is it even possible to make a camera a female gaze? So that was definitely something that was on our mind while we were making the show.

• 1:33:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you accomplished it. It's a completely different version of this tale than I've ever seen. That was the defining thing is that it was clearly all women making this.

• 1:33:57Speaker 03

  And the defining, dangerous genius of Liz Merriweather.

• 1:34:00Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:34:01Speaker 03

  Because you know, when you're making a show like this, the scripts keep coming. You sign on to a show, but you don't have all eight episodes. You don't know what the heck's gonna happen. You've got one episode and you're kind of crossing your fingers. She just hits them out of the park, script after script. We're shooting, she's show running and writing and editing. All these things that go into the title, Showrunner, and then delivering these scripts.

• 1:34:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:22Speaker 03

  Unbelievable.

• 1:34:22Dax Shepard?

  It's crazy. To me, where the comedy is, is this intersection between your fantasy and reality. I feel like that's constantly explored. One after another, you have an idea of what's gonna be great. And then where the rubber meets the road, there's just so much comedy.

• 1:34:37Speaker 03

  I've thought about, what is gallows humor? It's not really laughing at something or making a joke because something is sad. The humor is ever-present. It's just the ability and the desire to locate it, to say, I want to attach laughter to this experience. Because you could just look through the whole thing darkly. You could just say, ugh, this didn't go the way I wanted it to. This didn't go the way I wanted it to, and I'm dying of cancer. And the real-life Molly in the podcast, she has this totally innocent bemusement about the situations that she would find herself in. And also a complete lack of judgment about what people wanted to do and what their bodies craved and how she was a part of that, how it made her own body feel. She was this observer.

• 1:35:17Dax Shepard?

  Like an anthropologist.

• 1:35:18Speaker 03

  And also, I don't want to use the word angel, because she's like a very real person, but she was looking for the best version of things. And sitting in a neutral space about bodies, even when she's talking about her cancer treatments and what's happening to her body and how her body is failing and all of the secretions that a body can make. And that they're happening in tandem. And sickness is something that is being done to your body and your body is... Acting against your own will and that sexuality is something where you can have strong ideas, you can sort of both be in control and out of control, influenced by the other person and then learning more about yourself in the process of it. And

• 1:36:01Speaker 03

  that these two kind of bodily experiences, both full of feeling and surprises and smells. She found a way to hold both experiences right until the very end. She was in hospice and she was still looking for ways to appreciate and love her own body. She really loved putting on like beautiful lingerie. She would take a picture and she would send a sexy selfie and some guy would be like, oh, that was amazing. Thank you. She refused to deny herself any pleasure in the midst of all this pain.

• 1:36:31Dax Shepard?

  I don't know if this is intentional, this is what my projection is. It seems that she entered the experience with the curiosity of a novel experience, which is like what I would hope I could accomplish in that time. Let's explore this new thing.

• 1:36:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, because how do you know what you want until you try it? If you've been conditioned to believe that a certain kind of sexuality is acceptable, okay, normal, how do you even know what's out there? And how do you know if you like it or don't like it, or if it's for you?

• 1:37:01Speaker 01

  What's inherently bad or good about a specific sexual activity? People are like, that's bad or kinky, or that's in this bucket. But what makes that bucket that bucket?

• 1:37:13Speaker 03

  Patriarchy.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:15Speaker 03

  But things that we've inherited make that bucket that bucket. I hope that the generational turnover is going to drain that bucket into the bucket of, first of all, normal, acceptable, great, pleasurable, and also personal.

• 1:37:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:37:33Speaker 03

  It belongs to you. I remember I asked Nikki, I was like, what did people say when Molly found out she had stage four and she was dying? And then told everybody that she was going on this. Sexual journey, did that open her up to any judgment where people like, oh, my God, you're never going to believe what Molly is doing. She's like, nobody did. And I was like, that's great. Well, she's got amazing friends then because Yeah. there wasn't chatter about it. But I think we're worried what people would think or what people would say.

• 1:38:00Dax Shepard?

  Or there's some notion of what you're supposed to do with the end of your life.

• 1:38:03Speaker 03

  Yes, the right way to do it. Her refusal of that and also her desire to control it, to know what it was and to say when enough was enough. Childbirth and death are like these portals, but they're so medicalized. But that in each experience, you have the ability to say, I've experienced enough pain and my body is done with that aspect of this. But to know the timelines of things. We know, oh, when your water breaks, you'll probably go into labor and thirty hours. But death just isn't a part of our conversation. We don't know the bodily function of it and we don't see it.

• 1:38:34Dax Shepard?

  For me, that was the greatest source of anxiety, both with my dad and my stepdad, which is, what's the timeline? You're trying to prep yourself for how long is this experience? How often do I visit? That unknown is so powerful. It almost overrides the actual thing itself. My dad was a blessing because it was small cell carcinoma. So it's like, he'll be dead in three months. Do it all. That was great in retrospect. My stepdad was like two and a half, three years of prostate cancer. So it's like, when do you plan the trip? When is it too late for this? It's really hard to come up with that game plan when you actually don't know what amount of time you're dealing with.

• 1:39:09Speaker 03

  Right. And also the hope that what if there's more? And the treatment cycles that a person has to go through. I haven't been with somebody at the end of their life. That's not something that I know intimately. But I know that the information is so powerful to have hospice care. You can have a death doula in the same way that you used to have a birth doula, but somebody who really supports you and walks you through and helps you do it on your own terms. And it helps you understand end of life care. I know somebody actually who switched from being a birth doula to being a death doula. That place is so information rich. There's so much encoded stuff about really how to live and to be witness and to give that person the experience that they want in their body.

• 1:39:51Dax Shepard?

  I think we are starting to look at it correctly. There seems to be a movement like Atul Gawande where it's like, don't just look for longevity. The goals shouldn't necessarily be. 11 months instead of nine months. It should be, what do we want to do? That's like a bigger question and maybe more important than are we going to try to get 11 or nine?

• 1:40:11Speaker 01

  Squeeze every day out that we can.

• 1:40:13Dax Shepard?

  Measure it a little differently or evaluate it differently.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Also, the irony of we're so obsessed with the timeline of death. We don't know about any of us. We can just go through life as if, well, that's far away, but our timeline could be any minute.

• 1:40:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Well, it's great. I just want to call out one scene that's incredible. When you talk about this dark and dangerous sense of humor, the fact that you break your leg kicking Rob Delaney in the dick. What a swing. Good job.

• 1:40:38Speaker 03

  What a swing is right.

• 1:40:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:39Speaker 03

  I had a very small target to hit. You know what I mean?

• 1:40:42Dax Shepard?

  You're expecting one hilarious moment and then this other thing happens and you're like, holy fuck, this is a train wreck.

• 1:40:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, they were like, no, no, it's safe. He's wearing a cup. Just swing as hard as you can and just hit the cup. I was like, you really trust me to do this?

• 1:40:56Dax Shepard?

  Again, back to the poking someone in the eyes. It's hard enough to just kick and make sure you hit that.

• 1:41:01Speaker 03

  And then act at the same time. I was like, okay, it's just going to be like hitting a mark.

• 1:41:05Dax Shepard?

  And then Jenny's fucking great. Jenny Slate is so great in it as Nikki. It's fantastic. I hope everyone watches it. This has been a delight. You're invited on a bus ride whenever you'd like. You could even follow behind in a smaller motorhome and you're like, well, fuck, if he's going to make it, I'll make it in this size one.

• 1:41:23Speaker 03

  We have a minivan, which I pretend is a motorhome. I treat it like a motorhome. We've got survival, you know, we've got all the like snacks. Yeah, we got all the stuff. It's my starter motorhome.

• 1:41:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, your escape pod.

• 1:41:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, it really is. Damn, I just want to be on that bus. Do you ever podcast from the bus? Do you ever go like on the road?

• 1:41:41Dax Shepard?

  I do fact checks from it. I'll probably do some this summer.

• 1:41:44Speaker 03

  You figured it all out.

• 1:41:45Dax Shepard?

  But you're a delight, most powerful smile in real life.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  We've been wanting to have you on for years and years and years, so we feel very lucky.

• 1:41:52Dax Shepard?

  And thanks for trusting us. I know this isn't necessarily your cup of tea. It feels flattering that you.

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  It feels like a gift you gave us.

• 1:41:58Speaker 03

  You guys, stop, stop. I hope I've lived up to the seat on the couch. Can I do a podcast where I interview you guys? Because it's so weird to have so much attention on oneself and your whole life. You don't take a trip down memory road and look at your life very often.

• 1:42:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:14Dax Shepard?

  It's not a good thing to do, really.

• 1:42:15Speaker 03

  A little indulgence.

• 1:42:19Speaker 01

  So you can come here and get it out.

• 1:42:21Speaker 03

  Next time I'm going to make you guys walk through. I want to open up your roads.

• 1:42:24Dax Shepard?

  Anytime. All right. Adore you. Good luck with everything. Thanks for coming.

• 1:42:28Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:42:30Dax Shepard?

  I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong.

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  Do you smell something?

• 1:42:39Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  My apartment smells.

• 1:42:43Dax Shepard?

  What's happening differently here?

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting. What do you think it is? There is something different.

• 1:42:52Dax Shepard?

  I don't know.

• 1:42:54Speaker 01

  You like it?

• 1:42:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you look great. But I don't know if you just like you're at a film, you're at a photo shoot beforehand.

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Good job, Rob. Got it.

• 1:43:03Dax Shepard?

  What'd he say?

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  Eye makeup.

• 1:43:05Dax Shepard?

  Is that what it is? It's the lower eyeshadow?

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  I'm wearing eyeliner.

• 1:43:10Dax Shepard?

  This is a dingles.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  Really good job, Rob.

• 1:43:13Dax Shepard?

  I was looking specifically at the darkness there and wondering, is that all that's happening?

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:20Dax Shepard?

  But a major dingles, because last night I hosted, Charlie and I tried to do old movie night for his kids and my kids. And then Charlie's so much younger than me. He hasn't seen a lot of classics.

• 1:43:30Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:43:31Dax Shepard?

  He hadn't seen Raiders of the Lost Ark.

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:34Dax Shepard?

  Last, huh, last night was Pirates of the Caribbean, the original. We were watching it and Captain Jack Sparrow is so fantastic in it. And he looks so sexy with

• 1:43:47Speaker 01

  Oh, eyeliner.

• 1:43:49Dax Shepard?

  It's more than that. It's like smudged all the way down. And I said out loud to Charlie, I'm like, God, I wish that was a more acceptable look for guys. I would love to have that look.

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  Why don't you try it? I think we should try it first with brown eyeliner on you. I think black is gonna look really, let's work our way up.

• 1:44:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay, we'll go in steps, but I definitely had it for Wednesday.

• 1:44:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:44:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's fun.

• 1:44:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay, now walk me through why now eyeliner at this late stage.

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  I posted a picture of my mom and I on Mother's Day.

• 1:44:24Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Did you see it?

• 1:44:26Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 1:44:27Speaker 01

  Rob, do you want to put it up?

• 1:44:28Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Okay, great. I gave Rob something else to put up too. This is gonna be a very visual heavy.

• 1:44:34Speaker 01

  You better go to that YouTube.

• 1:44:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I guess people, I read a lot of people wanted to see the haircut, which delighted me.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:44:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  My mom is wearing eye makeup, she's wearing under eye makeup in it, or whatever, she's wearing eyeliner.

• 1:44:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  And I, and I was like, oh, it looks so nice. And I used to wear it.

• 1:44:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  And I decided to.

• 1:44:52Dax Shepard?

  When did it stop?

• 1:44:53Speaker 01

  Oh, well, also, the majority, I would say like 99.99% of the comments on that picture.

• 1:45:01Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:45:01Speaker 01

  Are about how I look exactly like her.

• 1:45:05Dax Shepard?

  Interesting.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  I take it as a major compliment.

• 1:45:09Dax Shepard?

  Are you wearing eyeliner, baby Monica, in this photo?

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:45:12Dax Shepard?

  Okay, look at the size of your eyeballs relative, that's like Vinny. You got a similar ratio.

• 1:45:19Speaker 01

  Oh, that's the dream to look like Vinny.

• 1:45:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, your head is only like 3X your eyeball size, which is unique.

• 1:45:26Speaker 01

  But her eyes are very big too.

• 1:45:28Dax Shepard?

  They're huge and banging, yeah.

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so anyway.

• 1:45:31Dax Shepard?

  Big eggs, that's the way, that's how you can tell someone has big eggs.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  Okay, the size of their eyes.

• 1:45:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they're correlated.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Um, anyway, so she is wearing eyeliner, if you can see, under her eyes, and I thought it looked really pretty. And so I wanted to bring it back.

• 1:45:47Dax Shepard?

  I think she looks like Alana Glazer too.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  What? That feels, that feels, that feels left field to me, but um.

• 1:45:55Dax Shepard?

  It does?

• 1:45:55Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:59Dax Shepard?

  Well, she looks so cute.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, she does look, she does look so cute. My dad.

• 1:46:03Dax Shepard?

  And you look like a little guy, like a little boy. She got a little boy.

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  Okay, nobody wants to hear that. God, your compliments have gotten so bad.

• 1:46:13Dax Shepard?

  I have some photos of me, I'll share with me carrying, you know, I carried a purse for like two years. And so I'll give you some of those and you can go, oh, what a beautiful little girl.

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna, okay, I wouldn't say that. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings all the time. Anyway.

• 1:46:29Dax Shepard?

  Anyway, it's very cute pic.

• 1:46:30Speaker 01

  Anyway, um. So that's what the eyeliner is about.

• 1:46:34Dax Shepard?

  Cause you saw your mom in it and you're like, well, why aren't I wearing it?

• 1:46:37Speaker 01

  It looks pretty. And since we look the same, I was like, oh yeah, I should start doing that again.

• 1:46:41Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:46:42Speaker 01

  Okay. I have a few things to talk about.

• 1:46:44Dax Shepard?

  I know. Um, we're in this situation where you, I know you have a story for the last two days, but we were waiting for the fact check.

• 1:46:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:52Dax Shepard?

  Which I guess is, I guess it's not a complaint. That's fun. I have something to look forward to.

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:56Dax Shepard?

  But it is crazy to know you, you're like, oh, I, oh, you know what? I'll just wait. And then I'm like, oh God, I wow. I can't hear. The anticipation just also, it's so foreign for someone to say, I have this great thing and you have plenty of time and then you go, I'm not gonna tell you for two days.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  And you just sit in silence and don't say it?

• 1:47:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:47:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:47:16Dax Shepard?

  You went back to Atlanta. Is it involving that?

• 1:47:18Speaker 01

  Yes, but real, before I get into my story, um, I just wanted to remind, if people have missed the Mo episode, because they didn't know who he was, I recommend to go back and listen to that. It's a really good episode. Kate Mara, voice messaged me today.

• 1:47:35Dax Shepard?

  She did.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  And she was.

• 1:47:36Dax Shepard?

  I just saw her in Friendship.

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm dying to see it. I want to see it this weekend. Is it great?

• 1:47:42Dax Shepard?

  It's great. It's crazy. I mean, it real, do you see it, Rob? Yeah, I went to the Vista and saw it. By the way, go to the Vista.

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  That's what she said.

• 1:47:50Dax Shepard?

  We went on a Saturday. I saw Sam Richardson. I actually felt like, oh my God, I live in a neighborhood with a neighborhood theater and I actually know people. Like it was a very heartwarming experience and the Vista was sold out on a Saturday afternoon.

• 1:48:04Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 1:48:05Dax Shepard?

  And Tarantino did a fucking awesome job with like the popcorn stand. Everything's retro. So it's like the old cartoon.

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  Did you go to Pam's Coffee?

• 1:48:12Dax Shepard?

  Nope. Um, just to the movie, but the popcorn Nathan's hot dogs, the way the signage is, is very nostalgic. It's, it's awesome.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:21Dax Shepard?

  And it's, it's an insane movie and it really.

• 1:48:26Dax Shepard?

  It tests how much you can fuck with the historic role of a protagonist. Like in Aristotle's Laws of Story. Because this, it's Tim.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, Tim Robinson.

• 1:48:40Dax Shepard?

  Tim Robinson, and he's being very Tim Robinson. He's going berserk.

• 1:48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:44Dax Shepard?

  And you kind of want everyone in his life to just get rid of him because he's, but he's your hero. So it's like this. Right, Rob?

• 1:48:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, he's insane.

• 1:48:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and some of the biggest laughs in the theater that I've heard.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  Oh, I cannot wait. I can't wait to see it.

• 1:49:01Dax Shepard?

  And Paul Rudd is just what a champion for taking that role and leaning into all of his Paul Rudd-ness in a great way.

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  I love him.

• 1:49:11Dax Shepard?

  Love him.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  Kate messaged me that she listened, she was listening to the Mo episode and that she loved it and that it was really beautiful. And she hadn't, she didn't know him before and now she's gonna watch the show.

• 1:49:24Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wonderful. Yeah, most of the comments are people saying, I wasn't aware of them. This is one of my favorite episodes.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:29Speaker 01

  Great. So check it out if you haven't seen that or listened to that. Um, okay.

• 1:49:34Dax Shepard?

  We're seeing it. You can say that now.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  Or seen it or listened. Um, another thing before my story.

• 1:49:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:41Speaker 01

  Two things.

• 1:49:41Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God, so much foreplay. Ding ding ding, Easter egg.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  Easter egg, Easter egg spurt.

• 1:49:48Dax Shepard?

  Egg spurt.

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  That's what I said, Easter egg spurt.

• 1:49:52Dax Shepard?

  Easter egg spurt. Okay.

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:49:55Dax Shepard?

  But wait, why is Easter in there?

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  Because it's an Easter egg.

• 1:49:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh, right.

• 1:49:59Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Um, okay.

• 1:50:03Dax Shepard?

  Easter egg spurt. That is perfect. It took, it just took me a while to compute.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. This morning I was on Instagram and I saw Mandy Moore had, like, she posted something and it was when she was young and it reminded me of the hunk episode.

• 1:50:20Dax Shepard?

  Where she destroyed my house.

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  Yes, and I had to watch it.

• 1:50:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it like got in my head.

• 1:50:25Dax Shepard?

  And it was on YouTube?

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  Yes, and I watched it this morning and it is so funny. It is so funny.

• 1:50:33Dax Shepard?

  That's the only one I ever broke in. I think I told you that.

• 1:50:35Speaker 01

  When, when did you break?

• 1:50:37Dax Shepard?

  I don't think I was prepared for the level of devastation that occurred. They dropped this fucking steel I-beam.

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:45Dax Shepard?

  On this mobile home and it flattens it like a pancake. And I'm watching it, looking at it and the cameras and then I have to turn and act like I'm like emotional and I am laugh, I'm like, I'm like worried I'm not gonna be able to, because you know I love when stuff breaks, like when a car drives through a window or something, that's my specific trigger. Yeah, and I had to turn around for a minute and like regroup.

• 1:51:08Speaker 01

  Oh, was that when you said I have to go see what the damage is?

• 1:51:12Dax Shepard?

  No, I think I had gotten it together by then. What an insane bit that was.

• 1:51:19Speaker 01

  It's really fun for me to see you before I knew you.

• 1:51:24Dax Shepard?

  Oh, tell me how.

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  God, I guess this might sound like one of your compliments.

• 1:51:29Dax Shepard?

  Oh, great.

• 1:51:30Speaker 01

  One of your horrible compliments. Because I know you so well.

• 1:51:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  I think sometimes I forget the obvious things about you.

• 1:51:40Dax Shepard?

  Like?

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  Like when I'm watching it, I was like, God, he's so funny.

• 1:51:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow, thank you. That's a great compliment. I didn't see that coming.

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  But I know that about you, obviously. You're funny every day.

• 1:51:53Dax Shepard?

  But you forget like I'm, I was a comedian at one point.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  I don't know. I was, I was just like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Dex is so funny.

• 1:52:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, thank you. Maybe stop there because that's great. I could float on that. Okay.

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  I wanna ruin it. And like same if I watch Parenthood, I'm like, oh, yeah, he's so good.

• 1:52:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  But then when we're here and I'm like, you know, annoyed by you because you're doing like.

• 1:52:17Dax Shepard?

  Because I'm your brother and your father.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  Exactly. Then it's like a weird dissonance. I kind of don't think of that person as the person I know.

• 1:52:25Dax Shepard?

  As again, I have a couple friendships where I juggle both things. I juggle what I feel about them on screen and then the reality of them in person as a friend.

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  Right. But even now, if I see you on screen now, every time, ever since I've known you.

• 1:52:41Dax Shepard?

  It's all, there's no magic, right? It's like just disillusioned.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  I mean, I could still see objectively like, oh, that's funny or oh, that's good, but I'm not, it's not the same.

• 1:52:50Dax Shepard?

  I totally get it.

• 1:52:52Speaker 01

  It's weird.

• 1:52:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I can imagine even if I turned in. A performance that was funnier than Frito or, or, or, um, the grocery store movie I did, whatever that was called. Employee of the month.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:06Dax Shepard?

  Which for my money, I think is the best I ever did. If I did something that was like, we could measure it was the same. You just want it tickle you because you sit on the couch with me.

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  I think it would tickle, I would have different feelings about it.

• 1:53:21Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  I would have more like, oh, like my, my friend did a good job feeling.

• 1:53:29Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  As opposed to like, just blind, like, oh, that's so funny.

• 1:53:34Dax Shepard?

  You can click into me being a stranger, basically.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:37Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes. That makes sense.

• 1:53:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, and I always have this weird, like, you know, it ended and I was like, I can't believe that's him. Like, I can't believe I know that person the way I do. Life is weird.

• 1:53:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  Because I watched Punk'd.

• 1:53:55Dax Shepard?

  Right. But that was a completely different life ago, right?

• 1:53:58Speaker 01

  Yes, it's so strange.

• 1:54:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:02Speaker 01

  Life is strange.

• 1:54:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it feels like a different life ago. Even like, what I do now, it's almost as if I, I, I am now a roofer and I used to be a car mechanic. Like, there's something.

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you changed industries, sort of.

• 1:54:18Dax Shepard?

  Well, definitely in that, like, the goals are so different.

• 1:54:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:54:22Dax Shepard?

  The goals on Punk'd were like, be as funny as, as reality will permit. And, and find the line and try, try your hardest to be right there.

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:32Dax Shepard?

  And that was just such a specific mindset. And then that's not what the mindset is in here. For now, which is crazy, you know, we're going on, well, we've already passed my longest job ever.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:44Dax Shepard?

  And there'll be a point where. You know, I've done this as long as I acted, which is a crazy thought to me.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And this is, does that make you feel good or bad? Or does it matter?

• 1:54:56Dax Shepard?

  Well, good in that, oh, fun. I got to experience so many things.

• 1:54:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:00Dax Shepard?

  Bad in that, well, this last 10 years was much quicker than the formative 10 years, right? Like punks to like 2003 to 2013 punk to end of parenthood is, to me, feels very long.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:55:16Dax Shepard?

  This show feels like we've been doing it for three years.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:55:18Dax Shepard?

  And that part's alarming.

• 1:55:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:55:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. But I did have a dream last night that I was acting in something. Yeah. It's kind of like my relapse dreams. And I tell you, my relapse dreams are always the same. I'm, I'm like, I'm out of town and I'm drinking a few beers. And I realize, I remember, oh, I always drink a few beers when I'm out of town and it always works.

• 1:55:41Dax Shepard?

  And then when I wake up, I literally have to go like, you never drank in a few years when you're, you know, no, I haven't. And then similarly, last night I was like, taking a roll and we still have this. So it was like, I was having to juggle both things. But then it, I had been doing that for a long time.

• 1:55:58Speaker 01

  Weird. Life is curvy and swirby.

• 1:56:01Dax Shepard?

  It is. It's got curves and swerves.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  And I wonder, I don't know, who knows how long we'll be doing this?

• 1:56:09Dax Shepard?

  Right. Unknowable.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  Unknowable, but I think what's weird for me is sometimes I wonder like, this potentially is your acting. Like this is my first life.

• 1:56:24Dax Shepard?

  Yes, of course.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  And there might be for me, not likely, there will be another thing after this.

• 1:56:30Dax Shepard?

  Exactly. So imagine fast forward 12 years to my age and you've now been doing something longer than you ever did the podcast.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:56:38Dax Shepard?

  But it feels like a third of the time. It's just very confusing.

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, weird. Anyway, it was really funny. If you want to check that out, it's on YouTube. While you're on YouTube, go ahead and head over to the Armchair Expert.

• 1:56:51Dax Shepard?

  Subscribe. We've never asked anyone to subscribe. I've always been really adverse to asking that.

• 1:56:58Speaker 01

  Go ahead and subscribe.

• 1:57:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, go fucking subscribe, even if you're never gonna watch it.

• 1:57:03Speaker 01

  You should watch it. Another, okay, I guess I've just been taking in a lot of you on accident.

• 1:57:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, so sorry.

• 1:57:11Speaker 01

  Well, I've been down a Malcolm Gladwell rabbit hole.

• 1:57:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, just for fun.

• 1:57:17Speaker 01

  Because I.

• 1:57:19Dax Shepard?

  Remembered how great the show is.

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  Yes, after I listened to the Joe Rogan one and then the RFK one, I was like, fuck, this show's so good, I forgot. And I thought, oh, I'm sure I've missed a lot of these episodes, so I should go back and look at some. And he did a bunch before Revenge of the Tipping Point, or during that time. We had him on for that show, so I don't think I was paying much attention to revisionist history then. But I was like, oh, I'll, I'll check this out. And there's one, I just have to really, really commend him. Actually, one's a ding ding ding, because it's about him basically saying, there's a section in The Tipping Point about the broken

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  windows theory, which comes up in an upcoming episode for us, which is funny.

• 1:58:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  And he, he comes on and he says, I was wrong about that. He straight up says, I was wrong, this is why. And it is so interesting to hear someone just come out and be like, this thing that got a ton of traction for him.

• 1:58:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:30Speaker 01

  Is wrong.

• 1:58:31Dax Shepard?

  Because it extended into Stop and Frisk?

• 1:58:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it, now looking at it over time, crime went down, went down after Stop and Frisk was taken away.

• 1:58:44Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  And all these people, Giuliani, Trump, are use, and they use the phrase, right? They use broken windows.

• 1:58:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  And he's like, it didn't, that's not why, but they use it as a scare tactic. And he said, I believed it.

• 1:59:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:59:00Speaker 01

  And now I know it's not true. And it was, it was really funny, you know, he plays this clip from Giuliani, and then he plays a clip of Trump saying it, and he said, he says, sometimes I stay up. At 3 a.m. and I think, oh, God, did he read the tipping point, too?

• 1:59:21Speaker 01

  And everyone read it. And that's such a weird thing to think. Like, you wrote something that everyone read and was persuaded by the pressure. That's a lot of pressure.

• 1:59:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And again, you can't really consider that when you're writing.

• 1:59:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't, but it's just wild. Anyway, so then he has a couple of episodes on the varsity blues, the, the kids who, the parents who paid for their kids to go to Ivy League universities. And you are in those episodes.

• 1:59:51Dax Shepard?

  I am?

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're a voice actor.

• 1:59:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, when they get to the, um,

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  The trials.

• 1:59:57Dax Shepard?

  Oh, shit.

• 1:59:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:59Dax Shepard?

  I did. Wow, that's funny. I never listened.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  You didn't hear.

• 2:00:01Dax Shepard?

  I never listened to that. Me and Britt Marling?

• 2:00:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:00:06Dax Shepard?

  Funny, because I, I listened to when we redid, um, uh, The Mer- Little Mermaid.

• 2:00:11Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 2:00:12Dax Shepard?

  But I didn't listen to that. That's crazy.

• 2:00:14Speaker 01

  I was really, it was so weird because I was just like, listening to these episodes and all of a sudden, he's like, and to play blah, blah, blah, these, you know, lawyers. He's like, my voice actors, Britt Marling and Dax Shepard. And I was like, whoa, my God, what is going on?

• 2:00:33Dax Shepard?

  Infiltration.

• 2:00:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, full infiltration.

• 2:00:35Dax Shepard?

  And then you go into your bathroom and I go, hi.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  You talk to me through my speaker. Um, anyway, so, um, that was great.

• 2:00:44Dax Shepard?

  I'll try to keep it coming. I'll try to do some more.

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  It's just popping up all over the place.

• 2:00:48Dax Shepard?

  I gotta get on, um, a makeup tutorial. I gotta get on a fashion podcast.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you do.

• 2:00:54Dax Shepard?

  I gotta get on Elizabeth and Andy.

• 2:00:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:00:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:00:58Speaker 01

  Now I have a story.

• 2:00:59Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  I was home to visit my mom for Mother's Day and I heard the craziest story. And I was like, maybe I shouldn't bring it up because it's like, kind of, it is sort of political, but it's wild. And I feel like I have to share it. My friend's sister lives in pretty rural Georgia.

• 2:01:20Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01:20Speaker 01

  And she has a kid in, in preschool.

• 2:01:23Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01:24Speaker 01

  Because the public schools really aren't very. Good. What's like the PC term for that? Whatever, they're not good.

• 2:01:31Dax Shepard?

  Underperforming?

• 2:01:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess so. Um, she sends her kid to a private school in rural Georgia, and it's pre-K through 12.

• 2:01:40Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:01:40Speaker 01

  So for so, I don't know if it was Halloween or something. They threw this like big assembly event and each grade had to dress up as a theme. And so the pre-K was like, you know, superheroes and princesses, whatever.

• 2:01:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:58Speaker 01

  Standard theme. And then one of the themes for like a youngish grade, look to, look to me like third grade, I saw pictures of this, um, was Hurricane Helene. That was the theme.

• 2:02:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, interesting.

• 2:02:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Which is.

• 2:02:19Dax Shepard?

  Like, what do you play, wind, broken house?

• 2:02:21Speaker 01

  Exactly. So some people were like the hurricane.

• 2:02:23Dax Shepard?

  God, that's a, they got fucked.

• 2:02:26Speaker 01

  Well, one girl was a FEMA check.

• 2:02:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:02:30Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Um, and.

• 2:02:32Dax Shepard?

  I mean, that's on.

• 2:02:33Speaker 01

  But like.

• 2:02:34Dax Shepard?

  Story.

• 2:02:34Speaker 01

  But why do Hurricane Helene?

• 2:02:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, why? Oh, because, well, if they were in northeast Georgia, I know that Asheville's very close to there and it got submerged underwater.

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  It ravaged Augusta.

• 2:02:51Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:02:52Speaker 01

  Um, which, but that's also why it's weird, right? Like.

• 2:02:55Dax Shepard?

  If we did the fires.

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:02:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:02:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:59Speaker 01

  Like, it, it impacted that area.

• 2:03:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay, one more chance at generosity here. I remember saying the time 100, like first 40 are so easy. Oh, yeah, that person knew dodgeable. This is that actor. The last 15, you're like, he had a great golf swing. You know, you don't even.

• 2:03:15Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:03:16Dax Shepard?

  So 12, 12 grade, maybe they just got to third grade last. And they're like, we have, we have used every category.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  Well, you haven't heard the knockout part here, okay? There's another grade. The theme was the Trump assassination.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  And this is, this is real.

• 2:03:35Dax Shepard?

  This is almost impossible to believe.

• 2:03:36Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:03:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, forget politics, just like

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:03:40Dax Shepard?

  The assassination of anybody.

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:03:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  And all these boys are dressed up as like Secret Service. And then there's one boy dressed up as

• 2:03:50Dax Shepard?

  Trump.

• 2:03:51Speaker 01

  Trump, and he has this, the full ma- he's like wearing a mask, a Trump mask, and like, you know, his ears all bandaged up. And, um, and then there's like, you know, kids, kids, fifth grade-ish looking kids in MAGA hats. And it was really, it was like, oh, yeah. And, and also what my friend, my friend, she was like, this is how it happens. Like, if you have any questions about like, how, if you're like, you know, living in California and you're like, I just don't get it. This is how.

• 2:04:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:28Speaker 01

  It starts so young.

• 2:04:30Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  Like, isn't that wild?

• 2:04:35Dax Shepard?

  It is wild. And I don't know why this is my compulsion. I don't even remember.

• 2:04:40Speaker 01

  And I, I know, I don't want to get mad at you and I don't want it, and it's fine, it's your compulsion. But I would, I mean, these, my friends who are also, like, my friends who were shocked by this, right? They're, they're Georgia people. They're not like

• 2:04:55Dax Shepard?

  They're not

• 2:04:56Speaker 01

  what you would say.

• 2:04:57Dax Shepard?

  Coastal city elites.

• 2:04:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. And they're like, there, there's no way that's real.

• 2:05:01Dax Shepard?

  So I think that's very extreme.

• 2:05:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:03Dax Shepard?

  And I think it's bonkers.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And they are in rural Georgia, hearing about a real case here in LA, where a child identified as a cat, and they put a litter box in the bathroom.

• 2:05:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:05:18Dax Shepard?

  So I only say that to just say, if we focus, focus on the, the, the crazy ones, like, they're on both sides and neither are really that representative.

• 2:05:30Speaker 01

  But no one, no school here is doing, dress up like a, be it, pretend you're a cat day.

• 2:05:36Dax Shepard?

  No, but they're putting a litter box in the bathroom. That, that's, that's truly craziness.

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  That's, I mean, look, that's one story you heard, right? Like, that's not a sweeping thing.

• 2:05:49Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:05:49Speaker 01

  This person is our president.

• 2:05:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:52Speaker 01

  He was elected.

• 2:05:53Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, I'm only talking about the school's decision. I, well, I'm hoping

• 2:05:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:58Dax Shepard?

  that that's as rare as the litter box

• 2:06:00Speaker 01

  Oh, I see.

• 2:06:01Dax Shepard?

  in the bathroom. That's what, that's all I'm saying.

• 2:06:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:03Dax Shepard?

  Is I'm, I'm just, my optimistic self is hoping that that is rare.

• 2:06:08Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:06:09Dax Shepard?

  I don't know either.

• 2:06:09Speaker 01

  It's a private school.

• 2:06:10Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:06:11Speaker 01

  So, yes.

• 2:06:11Dax Shepard?

  Here's what I would hate is someone hears the litter box story, right? They're in Georgia. You know, he's fucking California school. And I just would go like, well, hey, just, my kid's school isn't like that at all. It's public.

• 2:06:21Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:06:22Dax Shepard?

  And I

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  But that is part of why, like, a public school doesn't, isn't able to do things like that.

• 2:06:30Dax Shepard?

  Feel that crazy.

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and then I was thinking, like, if I had my, if I lived there.

• 2:06:36Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:06:37Speaker 01

  What would I do? These are the options of a very underperforming public school.

• 2:06:43Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  Or this? Like, this is a bad situation for people making decisions.

• 2:06:48Dax Shepard?

  You'd probably have to live somewhere different. Which is like the Sideris thing. It's like, yeah, if you're gay in a small town, go to the city.

• 2:06:54Speaker 01

  But you might not have the money. Like, I mean, there's just a lot of factors here that make it for me, like, I understand this is hard.

• 2:07:00Dax Shepard?

  You can live low income in all states.

• 2:07:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:03Dax Shepard?

  Right? You could be up in Oregon or Eastern Washington. There's like, there's equivalencies in liberal states if that was your desire. Was the parent, they, they were like, what the fuck's going on?

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  Mortified. Yeah.

• 2:07:14Dax Shepard?

  And what good, what did their kid have to dress as?

• 2:07:17Speaker 01

  Like Superman or something.

• 2:07:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay, great.

• 2:07:19Speaker 01

  Thank God. But that's what I was like, now this kid is in a hor, like, let's say this kid was of age of one of these horrible themes, right?

• 2:07:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  And his mom, my friend's sister, is like, no, you're probably not gonna dress up as a FEMA check, you know? Then he might be like, well, I'll be an outcast. Like, this is so

• 2:07:45Dax Shepard?

  The pressure.

• 2:07:45Speaker 01

  Yes. It's upsetting.

• 2:07:49Dax Shepard?

  It is, it is, it is.

• 2:07:51Speaker 01

  Cause I know me.

• 2:07:52Dax Shepard?

  And an opportunity, like my mom would say to me, what do you think of, what do you think of all these kids calling each other fags on the playground? What do you think it's like to be gay and hear that?

• 2:08:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:04Dax Shepard?

  What do you think it's, you know, like my school is all Christian. We didn't go to church on Sunday and other people that, you know, like, well, what do you, it's also not bad to be an outcast.

• 2:08:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:15Dax Shepard?

  And to be, it's a character builder. And if your parents are engaging you on it.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:20Dax Shepard?

  Then that's an opportunity.

• 2:08:21Speaker 01

  Guess you're right. It's just hard. It's hard to be an outcast. It's really hard. I went to church with my friends.

• 2:08:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:30Speaker 01

  Cause you know.

• 2:08:31Dax Shepard?

  Can I say one thing? It's actually weirdly related to your story.

• 2:08:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:35Dax Shepard?

  Rob, will you put up the thing I sent you? I just stumbled upon this.

• 2:08:40Dax Shepard?

  This is quirky maps, I guess, is the source. I follow a few different infograph. Accounts on Instagram and I, they're so fun. Now, this is a countrywide breakdown of largest employers by state.

• 2:08:55Speaker 01

  Huh, interesting.

• 2:08:56Dax Shepard?

  And what's undeniable about this map is you can quite clearly see the states where Walmart's the number one employer is almost universally a red state. And then low and behold, the states where the university is the number one employer, which is several, they're all without exception, also blue. They vote blue.

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:24Dax Shepard?

  So it's interesting of, of all the employers, really, there's just three categories, really four. There's either you work for Walmart, you work for a healthcare, like a hospital system or a university system. And there are only two that are like manufacturing Michigan, General Motors is the largest employer, and then Boeing in Washington. But I just thought this was a very informative intro. Like in, in Colorado, the largest employer is the Denver International Airport.

• 2:09:54Speaker 01

  That's really wild.

• 2:09:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like MGM Resorts makes sense in Nevada.

• 2:09:58Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 2:09:59Dax Shepard?

  But just all these university systems, that's pretty fascinating.

• 2:10:03Speaker 01

  Well, but North Carolina is, is the university system.

• 2:10:08Dax Shepard?

  And North Carolina is.

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  It's purple.

• 2:10:10Dax Shepard?

  It is far more liberal than the surrounding states.

• 2:10:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:16Dax Shepard?

  And it does make sense for like your bread and butter, right? Like, people are pretty loyal to their bread and butter.

• 2:10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's interesting.

• 2:10:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's kind of a fascinating.

• 2:10:25Speaker 01

  Ours is the university system.

• 2:10:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:27Speaker 01

  CLA or UC, I guess.

• 2:10:30Dax Shepard?

  The UC system.

• 2:10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:31Dax Shepard?

  New York is the university. It's like, you talk about the elites and the coastal. It's like, oh, yeah, that's, well, there's

• 2:10:37Speaker 01

  huh.

• 2:10:38Dax Shepard?

  Pretty obvious reason.

• 2:10:39Speaker 01

  A lot of it's healthcare.

• 2:10:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, 16. So 21 states, the largest employer is Walmart. 16 states, the healthcare is the largest. Eight for education and five for others, of which there's really no pattern.

• 2:10:53Speaker 01

  21 states Walmart is the largest employer. Wow.

• 2:10:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:58Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:11:00Dax Shepard?

  Uh, anyways, I guess fine quirky maps. I liked that.

• 2:11:03Speaker 01

  That's cool. I like that.

• 2:11:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. All right, facts?

• 2:11:07Speaker 01

  We're going to transition into facts now.

• 2:11:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 2:11:13Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace. And I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic, and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex. It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere, whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic.

• 2:11:56Dax Shepard?

  Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  Okay, Michelle, facts. Larry Mantle.

• 2:12:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, great.

• 2:12:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:12:20Dax Shepard?

  He deserves this.

• 2:12:21Speaker 01

  He is a man.

• 2:12:26Dax Shepard?

  Toll.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  Okay, Larry Mantle is an American radio talk show host and journalist on the Southern California NPR station LA-ist. LA-ist?

• 2:12:39Dax Shepard?

  LA-ist?

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  Mantle hosts Air Talk with Larry Mantle, which is the longest-running daily talk show currently on Los Angeles radio.

• 2:12:46Dax Shepard?

  Air Talk, that's the show Kristen's obsessed with.

• 2:12:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:12:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:51Speaker 01

  Um, there's a picture of him we have up here. He's 66.

• 2:12:55Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  He was born here in LA.

• 2:13:00Dax Shepard?

  He has a great origin story. I want to say like he applied at, uh, NPR and he didn't get it. And then he went to another station and he started and he was so good, then they brought him in. There's some kind of fun.

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  Let me read you.

• 2:13:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you know, let me just shave the sides.

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:13:17Dax Shepard?

  Okay, go ahead. Impulse control issues. They say it's part of ADHD.

• 2:13:21Speaker 01

  Get.

• 2:13:21Dax Shepard?

  I got a little bit, but that's okay.

• 2:13:28Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Oh, my God, okay. While in graduate school, Mantle was living in Pasadena and listened to NPR's All Things Considered on KPCC. He knew that KPCC also produced a daily one-hour local news program and used community volunteers and Pasadena City College students to supplement a small professional staff. Mantle started volunteering at KPCC and was soon anchoring newscasts and providing play-by-play of college and high sports carried by the station. Later, Mantle became the first local morning edition host for KPCC. After briefly working for CBS News Talk affiliate, KPR never showed. Mantle returned to KPCC as news director in 1983.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  Two years later, he launched Air Talk with the intention of combining listener calls from an analytic and news savvy audience with local experts and newsmakers. Huh. That's all it says.

• 2:14:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:22Speaker 01

  It doesn't say that he struggled.

• 2:14:25Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Sounds like a rocket ship ride of success. Cause of his enormous talent.

• 2:14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true. Uh, he has a son.

• 2:14:34Dax Shepard?

  That's a long time. Did you say 1983?

• 2:14:36Speaker 01

  He returned as the news director for KPCC in 1983, two years later. So 85.

• 2:14:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay. So 40 year anniversary for him.

• 2:14:44Speaker 01

  Wow, that's cool.

• 2:14:46Dax Shepard?

  Dude, congrats.

• 2:14:47Speaker 01

  Very big congrats. Okay. She said it was a tough day for NPR.

• 2:14:55Speaker 01

  That was Friday, a couple of Fridays ago, I guess. Um, he had the day before Trump had issued an executive order directing the corporation for PBS, well, Public Broadcasting's Board of Directors to cease federal funding for NPR and PBS.

• 2:15:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So let me just say, A, I hate this. This is fucking ridiculous. But I will say I was a little comforted when I read not PBS. I think that one's really largely federally funded. But NPR is only getting, I want to say the number I was like 2% from federal funding. So I am a little relieved that potentially they can survive that.

• 2:15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, hopefully.

• 2:15:36Dax Shepard?

  Much of a ridiculous.

• 2:15:38Speaker 01

  Hopefully.

• 2:15:39Dax Shepard?

  Like what we spend money, the shit we spend money on, it's like, let's trim out all this stuff. That's so low impact.

• 2:15:46Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:15:47Dax Shepard?

  Doesn't move the needle at all. And we lose all of our favorite things from the public funding.

• 2:15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. And we also.

• 2:15:53Dax Shepard?

  Sesame Street and every, you know.

• 2:15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's, it's making sure that media stays divisive and private. And that's like the opposite of what we need right now.

• 2:16:07Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I, I do my best to give the argument a fair shot, right? There are many left leaning media outlets and there's right leaning media outlets. PBS is not like when they have the election and they do a two hour thing on Hillary and they do a two hour thing on Trump. They're equally hard hitting.

• 2:16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I know.

• 2:16:27Dax Shepard?

  But I was trying to think, is NPR left leaning? Uh, maybe.

• 2:16:32Speaker 01

  But is it left leaning because people on the left are listening? Like, that's not a fair assessment of it.

• 2:16:39Dax Shepard?

  I guess, though, his, his point would be if, if all of Americans are funding it and half of Americans are conservative and half are liberal, it's not fair that the output is leaning left. That's, that's a fair critique. Now, cut it entirely or try to correct that is two different arguments.

• 2:16:57Speaker 01

  But is it left leaning because it's telling the truth? There's some truths that are happening right now that a lot of, that maybe Republicans would say are left leaning, but they're, they're the truth.

• 2:17:07Dax Shepard?

  No, I'm, I'm more mean, like, if they're gonna do, KC or W is gonna do a story on unhoused. Is it gonna be the, the liberal version of unhoused? Or is it gonna be the conservative version? And I do think more, probably more often, it is the liberal point of view.

• 2:17:23Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 2:17:24Dax Shepard?

  You don't know?

• 2:17:24Speaker 01

  I don't know about what they.

• 2:17:27Dax Shepard?

  I know I listen to NPR and I like it. So I'm inclined to think it probably is a bit more left. I guess that's my gut intuition about it.

• 2:17:34Speaker 01

  But again, is it, what you're attracted to is that it's, it's true facts being told?

• 2:17:42Dax Shepard?

  Well, like, I'm pro game marriage. So when that was all being talked about, hmm, everything I'm hearing on there is the experts talking about the reality of that situation. But I'm pro that, that union, right? There's not, they're not gonna give 30 minutes to a Christian saying that God says this is wrong. They're not gonna do that on NPR.

• 2:18:04Speaker 01

  Are they?

• 2:18:04Dax Shepard?

  But your, your argument might be that that shouldn't, you're right, and that shouldn't get 30 minutes on, on NPR. But I guess if it is federally funded and, and it has to be reflective of all the people that are paying for it. Then maybe it does. I don't know.

• 2:18:20Speaker 01

  Well, my guess is, yeah, maybe I just don't know. But I assume they do cover both sides. Like, I think the Daily, often you hear the other point of views. You hear, they will interview people who are on both sides. So you, you can hear what everyone is thinking.

• 2:18:37Dax Shepard?

  Well, now, the Daily, I don't know if you listen to it, but I really encourage you to listen to it. Is this, these two professors at Princeton wrote a book, which is, they have analyzed now for four years, the COVID response. And they take, all this World Health Organization had just done a study on social distancing for an airborne viral congestive virus. And they concluded, it doesn't work. It has no impact. And so their point is, and these are liberal Princeton professors. They're like, where was the New York Times saying, what about this article? Like, we did, the left did a bad job of being, pushing hard and pressure testing the things we were being told. And there's now a lot of evidence of that.

• 2:19:22Speaker 01

  But you can't do it until you're in it and after.

• 2:19:26Dax Shepard?

  Well, no, because this report that had been funded by the WHO, it existed. It existed. Anyone who wanted to look would have found that they just ran this study and that it was recommended that that wouldn't work.

• 2:19:39Speaker 01

  Based on what, what pandemic?

• 2:19:41Dax Shepard?

  On a airborne virus.

• 2:19:46Speaker 01

  But that affected this level, it couldn't have.

• 2:19:49Dax Shepard?

  You'll hear them, I want to get them on. I think when you hear it, you'll be very convinced, as I was. Like, oh, wow. Normally, we would have heard this counterargument to what was being proposed. It's how the fourth estate works. And what these two professors are saying is like, there was an institutional breakdown. And we need to, we need to come to terms with that and we need to prevent that from happening again. And one of the people that, and now the Daily's brave enough to now run it in 2025, but the Daily would have never touched that WHO study during the pandemic, which they, they just should have. They really should have. And we'll have the experts on it, and I think you'll agree. And there were many, it got so politicized, the whole event.

• 2:20:34Dax Shepard?

  And I'm not defending the right, the right stance was fucking ridiculous on it, right? But there was a big breakdown and you have to ask then, why? And I think part of the explanation, as do these people, is like, Every journalistic output became so politicized, they're either left or right. We need, we need PBS, we need NPR, we need ones that are not servicing the market.

• 2:20:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:21:00Dax Shepard?

  And, you know.

• 2:21:02Speaker 01

  That's what I said. Anyway, that had just happened the day before. So that's why she said that.

• 2:21:07Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 2:21:08Speaker 01

  Now Leonardo DiCaprio and his T-Rex.

• 2:21:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh, right. It's good, good. We need a good reminder of what's going on here.

• 2:21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it says he doesn't own a T-Rex. He has an interest in dinosaur fossils and has purchased several, including a mossosaurus skull and an allosaurus skull. But he is not known to own a complete T-Rex skeleton or fossil, according to many sources.

• 2:21:31Dax Shepard?

  Damn it. Why did we, why am I perpetuating that?

• 2:21:34Speaker 01

  I don't know. We want it to be true. I'm sure he wants it.

• 2:21:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I hope he's not offended. Like, if anything, I could get wrong about him.

• 2:21:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:42Dax Shepard?

  The fact that I think he's got a really cool T-Rex skeleton, I hope doesn't offend him.

• 2:21:46Speaker 01

  I hope not either.

• 2:21:47Dax Shepard?

  I'd sure love to interview him.

• 2:21:48Speaker 01

  Okay, the apex. She mentioned the apex. That's, I guess, the new dinosaur discovered. The stegosaurus dinosaur fossil that is considered one of the largest and most complete of its species ever found. It was discovered in Colorado and it's at the American Museum of Natural History.

• 2:22:08Dax Shepard?

  Look at that.

• 2:22:09Speaker 01

  Wow, that's so cool.

• 2:22:11Dax Shepard?

  Those plates are enormous on the back.

• 2:22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, they are.

• 2:22:16Dax Shepard?

  That's virtually what I was looking at installing on top of our gates.

• 2:22:20Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:22:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. We're always just trying to replicate what nature already figured out.

• 2:22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Ooh, imagine getting spiked with one of those.

• 2:22:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but it's so clever because they get attacked from behind.

• 2:22:34Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:22:35Dax Shepard?

  Good luck.

• 2:22:36Speaker 01

  Good luck. It's so hard for my brain to integrate that that's real.

• 2:22:43Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 2:22:44Speaker 01

  That those things really walked this earth.

• 2:22:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 2:22:49Speaker 01

  And like, what will be here? What will be here?

• 2:22:52Dax Shepard?

  In a billion years?

• 2:22:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:22:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:54Speaker 01

  Okay, now Malcolm said on this episode of Revisionist History, the Joe Rogan one that we talked about. He said.

• 2:23:07Speaker 01

  About his dad in the interview he did with Michael Gervais. He says something very sweet about understanding his dad more in death.

• 2:23:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:16Speaker 01

  Than now. And I wanted to find that clip. Oh, yeah.

• 2:23:21Speaker 05

  To not to not to participate in that spirit. Well, I'm getting a little emotional. Yeah. I'm in danger. When I talk about my father, I start crying. So. Yeah. What is that about?

• 2:23:44Speaker 05

  I don't know. He was.

• 2:23:49Speaker 05

  I'm sorry.

• 2:23:54Speaker 05

  I'd encourage you to open it wide open. There I was onstage in front of hundreds of people, perfectly happy. Then my dad came up and all of a sudden I became overwhelmed. And I was embarrassed. It wasn't what I intended. I wasn't there to bear my soul. Didn't I just say 10 seconds before the Gladwells are not emotional people? I want to move on, but Gervais won't let me. So off we go in an entirely new direction. Um, I mean, I do cry every time. He's been. He's been gone five years and.

• 2:24:37Speaker 05

  A friend of mine said.

• 2:24:40Speaker 05

  Two friends of mine said two very beautiful things that I've always remembered. One was. A friend of mine who was writing something about his father and he said. My father died 20 years ago today. I know him better today than I did back then. And I think about that.

• 2:25:03Speaker 01

  Nearly every day and night. So sweet. So sweet.

• 2:25:09Dax Shepard?

  It is so sweet. You know, hearing that make makes something for me makes so much more sense, which is Malcolm one time randomly sent me a text that said, I stumbled upon the thing you wrote about your dad.

• 2:25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:26Dax Shepard?

  And I didn't know you were such a great writer.

• 2:25:28Speaker 01

  Oh, that's nice.

• 2:25:29Dax Shepard?

  It just made me like sore.

• 2:25:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25:32Dax Shepard?

  And I thought, how on earth did he stumble upon that? But it's interesting because he's talking about a friend who wrote about his father who's dead. And this definitely happened within the time that his dad had died.

• 2:25:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:25:43Dax Shepard?

  And it's conceivable that like he was.

• 2:25:46Speaker 01

  On the search.

• 2:25:46Dax Shepard?

  Reading that stuff. Yeah.

• 2:25:49Speaker 01

  Sweet, sweet Mal.

• 2:25:50Dax Shepard?

  God, hearing him like that is so endearing.

• 2:25:53Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 2:25:54Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 2:25:55Speaker 01

  We love him so much.

• 2:25:57Dax Shepard?

  He's so special.

• 2:25:58Speaker 01

  We really love him so much, but that is such a beautiful sentiment that you can keep knowing people past their.

• 2:26:06Dax Shepard?

  And that the grieving is how you keep someone alive is also.

• 2:26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:12Dax Shepard?

  Sweet.

• 2:26:12Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 2:26:13Dax Shepard?

  That's it. All right. Love you.

• 2:26:16Speaker 01

  Love you.