When Is a Superstar Just Another Employee? (Update) | Freakonomics Radio

In 2023, the N. F. L. players’ union conducted a workplace survey that revealed clogged showers, rats in the locker room — and some insights for those of us who don’t play football. Today we’re updating that episode, with extra commentary from Omnipresent Football Guy (and former Philadelphia Eagle) Jason Kelce. You can find the transcript and show notes for this episode on our website here: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/when-is-a-superstar-just-another-employee-update/ FOLLOW FREAKONOMICS RADIO: YouTube: https://freak.ws/3yIl6dl Apple Podcasts: https://freak.ws/3yAvQh0 Spotify: https://freak.ws/3TsdCmV ABOUT FREAKONOMICS RADIO: Discover the hidden side of everything with host Stephen J. Dubner, co-author of the Freakonomics books. Each week, Dubner speaks with Nobel laureates and provocateurs, intellectuals and entrepreneurs, and various other underachievers to uncover things you always thought you knew (but didn’t) and things you never thought you wanted to know (but do) — from the economics of sleep to the future of education, from markets for marriage to the surprising utility of wolves. ABOUT THE FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK: Freakonomics began as a book, which led to a blog, a documentary film, more books, a pair of pants, and in 2010, a podcast called Freakonomics Radio. Hosted by Stephen J. Dubner, it’s one of the most popular podcasts in the world, with a reputation for storytelling that is both rigorous and entertaining. Its archive of more than 500 episodes is available, for free, on any podcast app, and the show airs weekly on NPR stations. Freakonomics Radio is now the flagship show of the Freakonomics Radio Network, which includes the podcasts No Stupid Questions, People I (Mostly) Admire, and The Economics of Everyday Things. FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK PODCASTS: Freakonomics Radio: https://freakonomics.com/series/freakonomics-radio/ No Stupid Questions: https://freakonomics.com/series/nsq/ People I (Mostly) Admire: https://freakonomics.com/series/people-i-mostly-admire/ The Economics of Everyday Things: https://freakonomics.com/series/everyday-things/ Special series: https://freakonomics.com/topics/ CONNECT WITH US: [email protected] https://twitter.com/freakonomics https://www.instagram.com/freakonomics/ https://www.facebook.com/freakonomics/ https://www.tiktok.com/@freakonomicsradio https://www.linkedin.com/company/freakonomics-media Subscribe to our newsletter: http://eepurl.com/bKm0cf

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey there. It's Stephen Dubner, and I thought you might need a bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio for the upcoming Super Bowl. We recently put out a new episode about the economics of the running back position in the NFL. This episode, which we first published in 2023, looked at NFL teams as employers. We've updated facts and figures as necessary, although the team rankings we discuss are from the 2023 report card. So stick around to the end to hear what changed in 2024. As always, thanks for listening.

• 0:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  When I say the words "workplace environment," where does your mind go? If you're like most people, you might think about an environment like this, or like this, maybe even something like this.

• 1:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  What you probably don't think about when I say "workplace environment" is this.

• 1:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  But if you are one of the roughly 2,000 men who play in the National Football League, that's your office. I mean, it's business. Like, let's not get it wrong. It's business. The NFL Players Association, or NFLPA, is the union that represents the players. And in 2023, they conducted their first-ever employee survey about workplace conditions. I would never have thought to ask, are there rats in your locker room? And they gave letter grades to each of the league's 32 teams.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  This is really about, are we giving you the inputs you need to be as productive as possible?

• 1:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  The NFL is the richest and most successful sports league in history. Each team is worth at least $4 billion.

• 1:57Jason Kelce?

  Nobody wants to be known as the cheapskate. Before, when it was rumored you were the cheapskate, it was harder to prove. Now there's data.

• 2:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what does the data have to say? Among US employees in general, job satisfaction is higher than it's been in decades. How satisfied are NFL players? Now, you may be saying to yourself, who cares about the workplace environment of NFL players? They make so much money, the environment shouldn't matter. Or you may say, pro football is so different from what I do for a living, that there's no way I'm going to learn anything worthwhile from this. Well, if we have done our job in making this episode, you will. At the very least, with another NFL season in the books, you will learn which teams got the best grades and the worst.

• 2:48Speaker 03

  Never really heard of an F minus before.

• 3:03Speaker 04

  This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything, with your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 3:20Stephen J. Dubner?

  Imagine that you have just graduated from college with a degree in, say, mechanical engineering, and you know exactly what kind of company you want to work for. And let's say there are 32 such companies within 100 mile radius of where you want to live. So which company will you end up at? To a large degree, that is up to you. You can apply wherever you'd like, and if that company thinks you are qualified and they make you an offer, you can decide whether to accept or reject the job. This is not how it works in professional sports. Imagine now that instead of studying mechanical engineering, you went to college to play football. If you are good enough to play in the National Football League, or if you're an athlete

• 4:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  good enough to play in any of the other major American sports leagues, you don't get to choose which team you play for. It's the teams that choose the players in an annual draft. Teams with the worst records the previous season typically get to pick earlier in the draft, and the best teams pick later. In the NFL, most rookie contracts will bind you to that team for four years. The top ranked players may sign huge rookie contracts with millions of dollars guaranteed, but that's just the top of the pyramid. Around 50% of NFL players make the league minimum. This year, that was a base salary of $840,000 for a rookie with gradual increases for each year of service.

• 4:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  So yes, that's a big paycheck compared to most first jobs, but the average NFL career is barely three years long. So a lot of players are out of the league before their rookie contract expires. They are replaced by someone even younger and cheaper. If you are good enough to stick around past that rookie contract, and if you're lucky enough to have remained healthy, those are two big ifs, then you become what is called an unrestricted free agent, and you can sell your services to whichever team wants you. Finally, after four years in the NFL, you have achieved the workforce freedom of a newly graduated mechanical engineer.

• 5:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  At this point, you may be in for big money, five or 10, even $50 million a year. And how does a free agent decide which team to play for? Your agent will speak to all the interested teams, try to drive up your price, and help you sort through the offers. There's a lot to consider. How the payout will be structured, what kind of incentives and bonus clauses you can get in the contract, even the occasional restrictive clause, like in the recent contract the Arizona Cardinals offered to re-sign their star quarterback Kyler Murray. They wanted Murray to, here, I'll read from the contract, they wanted him to complete at least four hours of independent study each week.

• 6:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  In other words, they wanted to make sure he's doing his homework, studying the playbook, watching film at night, things like that. Arizona was criticized for adding this clause, and they ultimately removed it. And Murray did sign the contract, a five-year deal that could pay out more than $230 million. When players get to choose their team, they usually go with the highest dollar offer, but there are other factors to consider. How good is the team? Most players want to play for winners. How good is the coaching staff? And how secure, if they're in danger of getting fired, you may be too. You might consider the weather. Are you a Miami guy or a Minnesota guy?

• 6:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  And maybe you will also consider the workplace conditions at your new club. How good is the locker room and the weight room? What about the food? How does the team treat your family members on game day? Those are the kind of questions most of us wouldn't think to ask. But Joseph Carl Tretter Jr. Isn't most people. When we interviewed Tretter for this episode, he was president of the NFL Players Association. His tenure ended in 2024, and he was succeeded by Detroit Lions linebacker Jalen Reeves-Maven. You'll hear from him a little later in this episode. I asked Tretter to start with his college background.

• 7:36Speaker 05

  I went to Cornell University and studied industrial labor relations.

• 7:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's a pretty typical college and major for an NFL prospect, yes?

• 7:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's not the normal pipeline to the pros. And I think leading into my election, it probably helped substantially because there's not many Cornell I L R grads walking around the NFL.

• 7:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  The election Tretter mentioned was for the union presidency. He had a long, successful career in the NFL. Nine seasons as an offensive lineman for the Green Bay Packers and the Cleveland Browns with around $45 million in career earnings. He retired in 2022 at age 31, and he had two years left on his term as union president.

• 8:20Speaker 05

  And I was kind of looking for some new projects to do. So I had a ton of time on my hands. And it was like, I'm going to take a stab at this.

• 8:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  This being the workplace survey of all current NFL players, which the union had been talking about for years.

• 8:34Speaker 05

  And then as we saw the responses start pouring in, this is kind of a proof of concept.

• 8:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, I was shocked at the response rate. Describe how many players got the survey and how many responded.

• 8:44Speaker 05

  So we have 2,200 active players, and we had 1,300 fill out the survey, which is about 60%. As we saw the numbers start pouring in, it was like, oh, man, we have to do something here. It's going to be like report cards. You had to ask somewhat qualitative, but also quantitative questions to try to figure out how to compare these franchises.

• 9:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Give an example or two.

• 9:03Speaker 05

  You know, rate your locker room one to five. But then also, what would you change about your locker room? What's missing in your locker room?

• 9:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  What would be in a five rated locker room? And what would be in or maybe missing from a one rated locker room?

• 9:16Speaker 05

  I mean, I would never have thought to ask, are there rats in your locker room? Like, are there physical rats in your locker room?

• 9:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  And yet.

• 9:22Speaker 05

  That comes out in the survey because there were.

• 9:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  In Jacksonville, we should say, not everywhere.

• 9:26Speaker 05

  Right. You have to allow the players to fill you in with what's bothering them. Like, there's one team that doesn't have outlets in their lockers where they can't charge their devices.

• 9:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, who is that?

• 9:38Speaker 05

  Cincinnati.

• 9:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  The survey was conducted online with guaranteed anonymity.

• 9:47Speaker 05

  In our business, you're so on razor's edge of being cut and losing your job. The idea that these owners actually think players can walk into their office and tell them like, "Hey, I think you're being cheap and you're not spending enough money on us." And there wouldn't be any retribution is a little crazy to me. There are some players that do, and a lot of it's the star quarterbacks who are untouchable. Or players that have guaranteed money and feel like they're safe and they can go in there and they can try to drive change for their teammates because they're a little more protective than the average player. But that was one of the reasons about making it anonymous. It was allowing everybody to voice what they've seen without fear of retribution.

• 10:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  The survey covered eight categories. Three were about the physical facilities, the locker room, weight room, and training room. That's where a player goes for a massage or the hot tub or to get an injury treated. There was one question about nutrition. How well does each team feed and hydrate the players? Also, travel. How comfortable are the airplane seats? How about the hotel rooms? And do you have to have a roommate? The survey also asked how well the team takes care of the players' families during the games. Is there, for instance, a place for your mom or maybe your wife and young kids to watch where they won't get pelted by beers? And finally, the survey asked about the training staff and the strength staff.

• 11:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  But interestingly, not the coaching staff.

• 11:14Speaker 05

  I didn't want a category that I felt could be too tracked to like wins and losses. I really wanted to stick to standard of care like, hey, where do you spend most of your time? The locker room, the training room, the weight room, the cafeteria? Like, what staff is around you most of the time? The training staff, the strength staff? How do you travel? How do they treat your families? Like, those are the core issues that impact their daily life. And I didn't want it to become like, hey, this is a good coach because we won a bunch of games. That's not telling us anything. There's some coaches that have a leadership council of older players that meet once a week and then acts on those recommendations. And I think that's what a good workplace looks like. That was something probably 15 years ago in the NFL, there wasn't any of that. It was very much, we're doing this because I'm the coach and I'm the boss and I say we're doing it. And

• 11:59Speaker 05

  now I think more and more of the younger coaches are coming in, being much more receptive to hearing feedback and acting on that feedback.

• 12:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Trader says the players' union had two primary goals in running the survey and giving each team letter grades. The first was to give players information that could help them decide where to work if they ever got that choice. The second goal was to help raise the standards across each club by bringing problems out into the open. That's why the union published the results. We will put the link in our show notes if you want to take a look. And why they graded each club in all eight categories. Because in the NFL, turnabout is fair play.

• 12:40Speaker 06

  We're always measured. We're always graded. They can use letter grades, number grades, like you play 60 plays and they're like, all right, you did your job on 80% of plays.

• 12:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Jalen Reeves-Maven. He is a linebacker with the Detroit Lions and president of the NFL Players Association.

• 12:58Speaker 06

  We're judged at every step. And I don't think there's ever really been a time where accountability has gone to the teams or the ownership of like, hey, are you being excellent here? Like, where's your grade in this area?

• 13:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Reeves-Maven has been in the league since 2017. He started his career with Detroit, then went to Houston for one season. And when we spoke with him, he was back with Detroit on a one-year contract with a base salary of $1.25 million. He played well, and last year, he signed a two-year extension with the Lions for $7.5 million. And what does Detroit get in return for that salary?

• 13:37Speaker 06

  It's the combination of the mental aspect where every week I have to learn a new opponent, I have to learn what they're trying to do to attack me. But I also have this physical aspect of, I'm playing a violent game. If I'm not violent, I'm probably gonna get hurt. But I can't be scared. I can't be scared to get hurt because then that's gonna show your performance. So you kind of gotta have a recklessness in a sense, or just a willingness to, you know, take that pain. That combined with the physical, the conditioning, the stamina, the energy, the persistence you have to have. It's a lot. So I think it's extremely hard, but I know that in all walks of life, people are working extremely hard. I have to add too, just the media scrutiny and the fact that you're basically on public display all the time.

• 14:22Speaker 06

  I don't think the average person knows how heavy that feels on your shoulders. You can basically determine a mood for a whole city or a whole state based off what you did on Sunday in a three hour period. So, you know, there's a lot that comes with it.

• 14:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  The NFL is a commercial juggernaut. If you look at Variety's list of the top 25 primetime TV broadcasts from last year, you'll see that 18 of those 25 were NFL games. The exceptions were the Oscars, the Summer Olympics, the Grammys, the presidential debate, the World Series, and a college football semifinal.

• 14:59Speaker 06

  I mean, there's so much money involved.

• 15:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  And with so much money, the league has TV deals worth more than $100 billion over roughly a decade. Reeves Maybin says the survey findings were pretty surprising.

• 15:11Speaker 06

  Well, there was reports of teams having like a rat infestation in the locker room. There's guys who don't get fed after practices, like the team was charging them for food. I know sometimes these things might seem like, oh, you got enough money to pay for it, but we are operating at the highest level possible. Like they demand excellence from us and I think that we should be demanding excellence from the teams.

• 15:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  J.C. Tretter was also surprised to learn that some players were being charged for food at team facilities.

• 15:44Speaker 05

  That was one where I had to reach out to several people to make sure I was hearing it correctly of like, wait, I just want to make sure like for the fourth time, is this true? Because that is so preposterous in a job where what you fuel your body with is so important to almost push them. Out of the building to push them to fast food, to push them to poor nutrition is such like a backwards way of looking at our industry. It was crazy.

• 16:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  And why do you think those teams do it? Is it just it's the way it was always done? Are they really trying to save money?

• 16:13Speaker 05

  I don't know. It was one team. It was the Arizona Cardinals who made people pay. There are three other teams that didn't provide it. And I don't think the cost they were charging would pay for the meals anyways. It's almost like the control factor of it of, hey, just know your place.

• 16:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can you talk about what you mean with that know your place sentiment? Because I think the public sees football players as superstars, not as employees coming into a workplace with bosses and needing to know their place.

• 16:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, from a union perspective, we're negotiating for the same things that any union is. Better wages, better benefits, better working conditions. But there is a level of control that's always being fought after. And the league, there's a piece of them that just wants to make sure that we know that they have control of us. From individual teams, like you said, we are just workers. And some coaches and some bosses are better at working with their employees about different changes that need to be made, whether it's scheduling, whether it's technique, whether it's how they operate. And some aren't good. I sometimes get frustrated when we're defined too much as just players

• 17:25Speaker 05

  because I think it takes us away out of the real world and puts us into football world. And we are workers and we're fighting for the same things. And I think that's one of our struggles as a union because of our short lifespan, where somebody comes into a union job and they can make sacrifices and bargain a certain way because they have the opportunity to be in that job for 30, 40 years. So sacrificing for today, they're going to see the fruits of that labor. That's not always true for us. So the sacrifices one group makes, they're probably never seeing the benefits of those sacrifices. But when it comes to the negotiating, there is a pie out there. And I think your job as an individual or as a union is to get the biggest share possible.

• 18:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  I have to say, you can really sound like an old fashioned union agitator when you need to.

• 18:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you look at the overall results of your survey, especially the team rankings, the teams that come in ranked high and the teams that come in ranked low, among the top-ranked teams, what do they have in common? Whether it's ownership, whether it's an attitude?

• 18:28Speaker 05

  The top three teams all have brand-new facilities. When we talk about facilities, I think sometimes the fans don't understand how different franchises work. So, everybody thinks of their stadium. So, like, the Rams in the Chargers were poorly ranked, and you heard a lot of questions of like, whoa, SoFi Stadium's brand-new. They put billions of dollars into it. How is it poorly ranked? That's not where players spend their days. That's where they play for one day a week, but their facilities are usually located elsewhere.

• 18:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, some of that is just random when the survey is done. So, in 10 years, those facilities will be getting a little ratty, and whoever else has new facilities, they'll probably rank a little bit higher because of that.

• 19:02Speaker 05

  Yeah, if teams do get new facilities, right? Like, some of these teams have had old facilities forever.

• 19:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, who are the top three teams in the Players Union survey?

• 19:13Speaker 05

  Top three teams are Minnesota was number one, Miami was number two, and Las Vegas was number three.

• 19:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  The owners of the Minnesota Vikings and the Miami Dolphins both made their money in real estate development. So, it probably shouldn't surprise us that they brought their real estate shops to their football investments. The big surprise, to me at least, is that some of the best teams in football rank toward the bottom. If you look at the winners of the past six Super Bowls, the New England Patriots, the L.A. Rams, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and the Kansas City Chiefs, who won it three times, none of them ranked higher than 24th out of 32 teams in 2023. I asked J.C. Tredor if he was surprised to see so many top-performing teams at the bottom of his list.

• 19:59Speaker 05

  No, and that's the thing. Like, having a star quarterback like Patrick Mahomes is the ultimate deodorant. Whether it's talent around him, or facilities, or coaching, he's gonna make everybody look good because he is that freaking good as a quarterback. But that doesn't mean the offerings shouldn't be up to snuff. It shouldn't be, hey, come here to play with Patrick Mahomes. Homes and potentially win a Super Bowl. But also like the facilities are going to be old and dilapidated and you have to deal with that. That shouldn't be the trade off, like just pay for better facilities. If you're making so much money, the idea of making it a choice of one or the other when you could just provide both. Doesn't make much sense to me.

• 20:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  What do the teams at the bottom have in common? Is it something as simple as they typically have older practice facilities?

• 20:44Speaker 05

  We asked the players, do they think their owner is willing to invest money to make the facilities better? And I think the teams at the bottom, that number tracked being down there. You don't have to knock down walls, but it's, are you willing to invest? The money necessary to make the changes necessary to fix the issues you have. Like for Cincinnati, to rewire the locker room to make sure there's outlets there is not that costly. For Washington, there was complaints that there's poor drainage in the showers. So the guys are literally standing in the water that's been run off from the guy next to them. Who's showering the dirt and the blood and the sweat.

• 21:28Speaker 05

  Like these aren't knock the walls down and build a new facility. Let's get a plumber in there and fix it.

• 21:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Washington commanders with their backed up showers ranked dead last in the NFL report card. But that wasn't their biggest problem. The team was plagued with a variety of scandals concerning workplace harassment and financial impropriety. Finally, the wildly unpopular owner, Dan Snyder, gave in to pressure from the league and agreed to sell the team. This season with new owners and a new head coach and general manager. The commanders had a remarkable turnaround, making the NFC championship game for the first time since 1991. Washington's problems during the Snyder era got a lot of press, but at most clubs, routine problems don't get much coverage.

• 22:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  And J C Tretter says that when players change teams, they often don't have much information until they show up at their new workplace.

• 22:25Speaker 05

  And when they're making these decisions about where they're going to spend potentially the rest of their career. They should know what they're getting into. I talked to a lot of guys as we did this survey. And I said like, Hey, you know, your team's one of the worst graded teams. Did you know that before you signed? And they're like, no. And I got here and now I feel trapped. The quality of care is poor and the facilities are poor and I'm stuck here.

• 22:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  So even if I'm making eight, 10, 15 million dollars a year and the facilities are poor, it's enough to have buyer's remorse, you're saying?

• 22:55Speaker 05

  Yeah. And again, most of our guys aren't making that. So you start looking for differentiators and those guys, those minimum salary guys are the lunch pail, hard hat guys of your team, the special teams guys, the offensive linemen, the backups that make the team work. Those guys are looking at and saying like, hold on, I'm going to get the same dollar amount from every team. What are the other variables I can look at? And before it was, what do I think of the area, like the city, like how close it to my family? And now it's like, hold on, I'm not going to go to a team that has weight room floors peeling up and charges me for dinner. I'm going to go someplace else.

• 23:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  So is this NFL team report card working? Coming up, we'll hear from an agent, an economist, and later, the people who run the teams. I'm Stephen Dubner. I love making Freakonomics Radio and I love that you're listening to it. We'll be right back.

• 23:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Jim Iveler has worked for more than 25 years as an agent for NFL players, although he isn't an agent technically.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  Technically, we are called certified contract advisors.

• 24:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Iveler's job, as the name implies, is to advise players on their contracts. For players coming into the NFL from college via the draft, remember, they don't choose where they'll play and their salary is predetermined by how high they were picked in the draft.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  We're all so accustomed to the draft and that's how talent is dispersed throughout the league. But when you think about it in more of a macro level, it's a pretty incredible process. I mean, you're told. As a recent person coming out of college, where you're going to work. I know when I graduated law school, if someone had called me up and said, "You've just been drafted by a law firm in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and that's where you're going to go," I would have said, "You want to bet?" But obviously, these guys go, most of them very happily, to whatever team drafts them. The process, though, really is, "We're trying to achieve generational wealth for our clients." And I know it's a buzzword and a cliche, but it's really true. The goal needs to be that when the player is done playing in the NFL, whether they play four years or 14 years,

• 25:10Speaker 03

  that they can retire with enough money in the bank so they can do whatever it is they want to do with the rest of their life because it's a passion, not because they need the paycheck. And so unless you're a, I'm going to call it a top 20 or 25 pick, you're really not getting that generational wealth from your first contract. So we're really all in this game to help our clients achieve a second contract. And if they're really blessed, maybe a third and a fourth contract. If you can get that bite at the apple where you've performed well enough, where there's multiple teams interested in you, that's where the leverage maybe flips, and it's on the player's side. It doesn't happen to a lot of guys. And I'm sure you've heard the average career span of an NFL player is 3.3 years.

• 25:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  And it's probably not a total coincidence that that's just before the unrestricted free agency kicks in.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  Do the math. If you can't become unrestricted until four years, and the average player is 3.3 years, that means the average player is never getting that bite at the apple.

• 26:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, let's say you represent a player who has just become a free agent, and you do your thing, and you get offers from three teams. What are the primary factors that will go into the decision of where your client will want to go? And I especially want to know if workplace conditions are at all a major factor.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Certainly, compensation. Anybody that says that's not number one is probably lying, even if the player has made that sort of money over the course of his career to achieve that generational wealth. The compensation is still going to be the primary factor. And then the team itself, the talent that the player is surrounded with, teammate-wise, the coaching staff, whether or not the team is anticipated to be a playoff Super Bowl team. These are all things that I would say are a little bit more important to players than the workplace conditions. It's something that players are talking about, but I wouldn't put it in the top few factors of making free agent decisions. Another thing you need to realize about unrestricted free agency, this happens really fast. Sometimes a player has to make a life-altering decision in five minutes because if the player

• 27:06Speaker 03

  is not ready to commit, that team's going to go on to the next guy on their list at that position. And when you have to make those quick decisions, the size of the locker room is really not coming up. One of the factors that a player and agent will absolutely consider is whether or not there's a state tax that's levied against the player with the team that he is signing with. And eight of the 32 NFL teams play in states where there is no state tax, and that could be a pretty big difference monetarily if you're talking about 0% taken out as opposed to 8, 9, 10, 11% in some of the higher states.

• 27:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  List for me the no-tax places. I guess it's all the teams in Texas and Florida.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  The two teams in Texas, it's the three teams in Florida, it's Vegas, it's Seattle, and it's Tennessee.

• 27:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  So it sounds like you put a lot less stock into the impact of the survey than someone like J.C. Tredor. So I'm trying to get a read on how much this survey really matters in the end. What do you think?

• 28:02Speaker 03

  I think it was a great idea for him to commission this survey and get responses from players. He should be holding teams' feet to the fire because I can guarantee you there are some owners that are upset. From what I've read, Arthur Blank down in Atlanta was disappointed that his team ranked where it did, and these guys are competitive. Regardless of whether or not it's really having an impact in free agent decisions, it doesn't mean that the survey's not going to affect change in a lot of these facilities with these team owners because if they perceive that it could be a problem in free agency, that's really the most important thing.

• 28:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  So the Washington Commanders got an F or lower, they actually got an F- in a few categories, in 1, 2, 3, 4 of the categories, and then a couple Ds, a C, and an A+ in strength coaches. So the players loved the strength coaches. But in terms of the things the team does otherwise, locker room, F-, team travel, F-, treatment of families, F. Can you talk about why those things matter so much to a player that they're going to give their own team an F-?

• 29:07Speaker 03

  For sure, and I've never really heard of an F- before.

• 29:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Me neither.

• 29:12Speaker 03

  But it is important and certainly I think as a player ages throughout his career, it becomes more important because presumably they have a wife, they have children and how the family is treated on game day, for instance, is a big deal. I remember about 15 years ago, speaking to the front office of the Jets and they were asking, well, what could we do better? And we brought up the concept of a family room on game day and they didn't even understand what we were saying. And we said, hey, listen, you have players whose wives are coming with little kids and they're sitting in the stands and the beer is flowing and there's things that are said. The concept of having a daycare in an NFL stadium not too long ago was unheard of. Now I think it's close to half, maybe half them. Same thing with a family room where the

• 29:56Speaker 03

  players' families can go and shelter from bad weather, shelter from crazed fans.

• 30:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Are you surprised that so many, I mean, these are billion dollar franchises and they could pretty easily fix some of these problems if they cared with a little bit of money. Like the family room is going to cost some money plainly, but not a ton. Are you surprised that there's this sort of penny wise, pound foolish approach?

• 30:22Speaker 03

  Yes, I'm surprised. These are multi-billion dollar organizations. Their most important asset, of course, is the talent that they're putting out on the field. So to read some of the things in the survey, uneven floors in the weight room where players feel afraid walking around, slippery floors in the pool area where players are falling. When you invest so much in your assets to have a workplace injury potentially happen, it would not be a good look and it is very surprising. But on the other hand, some of these teams are run by old school owners. You know, you look at some of the teams that are low on the list. I don't think it's an accident that the owners made their money from the team. They didn't come from a different industry. They

• 31:07Speaker 03

  came from where their grandfathers paid $500 and a bottle of whiskey for the team back in 1942 and they are kind of mired in old school ways and are maybe a little bit slow to come around. And no matter how much the front office wants to be progressive and implore them to change certain things, it still starts at the top and the owner has final say.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  One problem for family-run firms is it can be hard to innovate. How do you think outside the box when you've never left the box?

• 31:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Betsy Stevenson.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  I am an economist and professor at the University of Michigan, and I study labor markets.

• 31:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Are you a football fan, Betsy?

• 31:53Speaker 01

  I teach at the University of Michigan, so I have to just plead the fifth and refuse to answer this question.

• 31:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  So that's a big fat no plainly?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really awkward.

• 32:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Stevenson may not know football, but she does know labor economics.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  I served as the chief economist at the Department of Labor, and I served as a member of the Council of Economic Advisers, giving advice to President Obama.

• 32:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can I have an example of some labor economics advice you may have given?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  One big thing we talked a lot about was whether we should require forms of compensation outside of wages. Like, should people be required to get paid sick days? Should we require that people get paid maternity or paternity leave? What makes a good job and what's the role of government in shaping the conditions?

• 32:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what makes a good job? That's an easy answer, yeah?

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hard, because we all have different preferences. And I think the hope of economists who believe in market forces is everybody wants different things, and they'll just be able to sort around the labor market till they find the thing that works for them.

• 33:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  So when a company does provide what economists like Stevenson call compensation outside of wages, why do they provide that?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Economists have come up with two buckets of reasons. So the first bucket is the benefits might be a complement to hard work. We actually see higher productivity because it induces more effort from workers. The second bucket is that employees might value the benefits more than it costs the employer to provide those benefits. So let's start with the first bucket, complement to hard work. That's why every company going back to the 50s that has office workers has coffee in the break room, right? You gotta caffeinate your workers to get them to work hard. The tech sector went a little crazy with this, like, hey, let's have ping pong tables. But it really was the same idea.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  Well, if you're socializing at work, you'll have less of a reason to leave. One of the more extreme examples was some of the tech companies started providing a benefit, which is, we will pay for you to freeze your eggs. Oh, no, we have these hardworking female employees wringing their hands in their early 30s, thinking they better have a baby. I know what we'll do. We'll pay to freeze their eggs. And then they'll be able to keep working hard for a few more years.

• 34:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  Betsy, I know you took a look at the NFL Players Survey. How do you think about their non-wage compensation in terms of this first bucket?

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's great, because you can actually see the categories here, which are clearly a complement to high productivity. Nutrition, they're like, what you eat is gonna affect how you play, so we're gonna feed you. The weight room, how you train up is gonna affect how you play. We're gonna give you a weight room. This is really about, are we giving you the inputs you need to be as productive as possible? When we think about things like the treatment of families.

• 35:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's bucket two, I assume?

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is something that's gonna have a cost to them. But the question is, what's the value to the person receiving it? And that value might be quite high.

• 35:17Speaker 05

  My wife, my mom, my sister, my dad, they didn't come to games to tailgate and booze it up and cheer for the Cleveland Browns. They came to the game to make sure I walked off the field at the end.

• 35:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  That, again, is J.C. Tredor, former president of the NFL Players Union.

• 35:35Speaker 05

  I understand the guys on the field are making a lot of money, even the guys making minimum salary are making a lot of money. The risk they are taking, though, is substantial, and the damage they are receiving is substantial. And parents, and kids, and wives, and siblings are there worried about their well-being. And the The idea that the guys out there making the owner hundreds of millions to billions of dollars for what they're doing on the field, while taking all of the risk physically. The idea that their wife and newborn baby are sitting on the grimy floor of a public restroom breastfeeding is just preposterous to me. Eighteen of the teams offer family rooms, fourteen don't. And the teams that don't, like where is that wife supposed to go?

• 36:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's your prediction for, let's say, two years from now? How many of those fourteen will offer it?

• 36:22Speaker 05

  We've heard from some teams being like, eh, you know, we have an older stadium. There's no room for it, but everybody has suites. You know, like in the end, it comes down to a choice.

• 36:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  So how many games did your family attend when you were playing for Cleveland?

• 36:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, they would be at almost every home game. And in the end, once I got my third contract, me and two other teammates went in on a suite. Like we bought our own suite. We all had young kids from two and under, and we didn't want them out in the cold. So we said, like, we'll pay the money and buy a suite.

• 36:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  How much did you have to pay?

• 36:53Speaker 05

  Hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

• 36:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, split by three players with, let's call it, eight home games a season. So a little over six thousand dollars a game you're paying out of pocket.

• 37:04Speaker 05

  I'll trust your math.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Looks like a lot of teams are doing a really bad job. I mean, I saw a lot of Fs.

• 37:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  That again is the economist Betsy Stevenson.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Like, maybe they're not getting the grade inflation that our university students get these days. But a lot of Fs. And, and I think what that says is this is a job where there's a lot of cash thrown at these players, and they don't think about anything else.

• 37:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Betsy, are you surprised that firms that are paying their key employees a relatively very high salary? That at least some of them on some dimensions are apparently so cheap when it comes to perks and benefits?

• 37:47Speaker 01

  I am surprised that any team. Is messing up when it comes to perks and benefits that would actually increase the productivity of the players. I think that's a clear mistake because those perks and benefits are probably quite cheap compared to not just pay, but compared to the benefits they yield on the playing field.

• 38:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  Like one more victory would be worth quite a bit of money.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  One more victory is worth a lot of money, right? You could probably do a full renovation of your weight room.

• 38:21Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you think the issue here is that they're not connecting it necessarily? You're not believing the connection to productivity? Because otherwise, it's hard for me to understand why they would cheap out.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  I'm pausing only because like, sometimes people do stupid things, Stephen.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  So I think that's one answer is like, they're just being dumb. Now, another answer is what's necessary in the weight room or the training room or nutrition in order to get the best out of your players on the field is being given. But players are looking for little aspects of that that don't actually have any impact on their productivity. You know, maybe they want a brighter, sunnier room. It can be hard to measure these things. Maybe if you had the brighter, sunnier room, they'd work harder in training. And if they worked harder in training, they'd do better on the playing field. So you should figure out how to make it brighter or sunnier. You know, I painted little poppies on the wall in my

• 39:23Speaker 01

  gym and I swear I peloton faster because I love my field of poppies.

• 39:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can I just say, if this economist thing doesn't work out for you, maybe NFL training room decorator would be a lovely second career?

• 39:36Speaker 01

  That would be fun. Yeah.

• 39:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Are NFL team owners and bosses really just doing stupid things? We'll find out after the break. If you like this episode of Freakonomics Radio, there are three things you can do. Number one, listen every week. We're here, you should be too. Number two, tell your friends and family to listen. That's the gift that keeps giving. And number three, if you're really ambitious, leave us a review or a rating on your podcast app. Thanks in advance. We'll be right back.

• 40:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  So according to a recent survey conducted by the NFL Players Union, many pro football teams are not such great places to work. We reached out to all 32 teams asking for an interview with their owner or president. Nine never responded. 21 declined with one communications director asking why we thought he would ever let us speak with his boss about this topic. In the end, two teams did agree to speak. Surprisingly, they were the top two teams in the player survey.

• 40:56Speaker 07

  This is Mark Wilf, owner, president of the Minnesota Vikings.

• 41:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Mark, congratulations on acing the NFLPA's reporter card. I'm just curious, how much did that matter to you?

• 41:09Speaker 07

  Well, it matters a lot. I mean, from day one of our ownership, 2005, it's our highest goal to make our organization a world-class organization. And of course, that's winning Super Bowls, which is paramount, but facilities, staff, and community involvement as well.

• 41:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  So here's a choice for you, Mark. You can keep an A grade, the number one ranking on this report card for, let's say, 10 years, but not win a Super Bowl. Would that be worth it? I mean, maybe winning isn't everything. Maybe treating people well is, in the long run, more important.

• 41:43Speaker 07

  Well, I strongly believe that culture in a building is critical, and I think it's critical to building championships. So I want to be greedy and say we want both.

• 41:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, and let's hear from the team that came in second.

• 41:59Speaker 08

  Tom Garfinkel, vice chairman, CEO, and president, Miami Dolphins and Hard Rock Stadium.

• 42:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Garfinkel is the top lieutenant to Steven Ross, the real estate developer who is majority owner of the Dolphins.

• 42:12Speaker 08

  Steve is very focused on being best in class and being willing to invest in being best in class.

• 42:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  So congratulations on doing so well on this NFL team report card. What was your first response when you saw your grades?

• 42:25Speaker 08

  Well, my first reaction was, I don't like being second, so we're going to fix the family area. I could promise you that. We will have the best family area in football next year.

• 42:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  The Dolphins got an A or A+ in every one of the eight categories except for the treatment of families. That grade was a C+ with some players saying they didn't get enough passes to the post-game area. But otherwise, great reviews. Not coincidentally, the Dolphins recently opened a new $135 million practice facility. Long before they broke ground, Garfinkel says he and Ross toured a bunch of other football facilities, including college facilities, which tend to be extra deluxe, since colleges can't use actual money to recruit players.

• 43:14Speaker 08

  One of the things that really struck us was at Clemson University, the locker room is really at the center of the facility. And from a layout standpoint, we really thought that's the right idea. We want this to be player-centric. We want the players to be at the heart of everything we do here. And so to put the locker room at the center of the activity was really paramount. And then designing around that, literally sat down with the architect with a pen and pencil and drew out where the different functions would be adjacent to the locker room for players, so that they could easily and quickly get to all the different areas that they needed to.

• 43:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  So during the course of the day, players are going from where to where to where?

• 43:53Speaker 08

  So it could be the meal room, the cafeteria, it could be the team meeting rooms, which are where they spend a lot of time. There's everything from the sauna and steam room to the, you know, the cold and the hot plunge and the underwater treadmill. And then the training rooms next to that, where the doctors and the therapists are. And then next to that is the weight room.

• 44:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is the locker room kind of where you come in, you drop your stuff, you get ready to do your day, and then are you cycling back through the locker room during the day because in part that's where your stuff is?

• 44:21Speaker 08

  Yes, I think the locker room is really home base for them. There's an area for them to charge their phone. There's a comfortable seat. It's not a locker, you know, talking to Dan Marino and those guys, they literally had a nail they used to hang their helmet on. These are very bespoke, custom environments. We try to design the environment to be almost more Four Seasons-like, without the mahogany. I think you'll find that the Dolphins logo Are subtle. The only aqua you see in the locker room is the nameplate above the locker.

• 44:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  Is that a tacit admission that people get sick of aqua? Cause I would make that argument.

• 44:54Speaker 08

  I think you might get sick of whatever the color is if it's all you see everywhere. Right?

• 44:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  So we did a rough analysis with the NFLPA report card, the grades versus win-loss records, basically. And it turns out there's very little correlation. In fact, it might be a little bit negative. A lot of teams that do really well on the report card have not had great seasons lately. Haven't won a Super Bowl in a long time. Dolphins haven't won a Super Bowl in a long time. Whereas a lot of the teams who've won Super Bowls lately rank really low. That surprised me. I'm curious what you make of that back of the envelope correlation.

• 45:32Speaker 08

  Well, I would say is that causation or correlation? This is the first year that survey has been conducted to my knowledge. If you're winning over a long period of time, maybe you don't feel the need to put the resources in. And if you're not winning, you feel the need to create some competitive advantage. So, you know, I'm not sure. Maybe over 10 years or something that'll play itself out. I'm not sure it's relevant in the short term.

• 45:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  For a lot of reasons, including especially the pandemic, there's been a realignment of the relationship between firms and their employees. The pendulum kind of swings. It'll go really strong one side, then it'll come back. I'm just curious what the last, you know, several years, including the pandemic has taught you about what it means to be an employer in the modern era.

• 46:17Speaker 08

  Well, I certainly think employees are more empowered than in the past. Their voice matters more. It's really about listening. There's a tradition in football where a lot of things in the NFL are done the same way across teams in terms of how schedules are set, how coaching is applied, how scouting processes work. And one of the things I love about Mike, even in the interview process, was he really has an innovative mind. He really wants to do things differently.

• 46:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Garfinkel is talking about Mike McDaniel, the Dolphins head coach.

• 46:47Speaker 08

  And one of those things is that players are really different today than they were even five years ago. They want to understand the why of things. And instead of just saying, shut up and get in line and do what I tell you to do, Mike will sit down with a player and say, well, you know, listen, wide receiver, here's why I need you to block corners and safeties in the run game. Well, I get paid to catch touchdowns. Okay. So then I'll show them the film and say, okay, here's a three yard run and where the wide receiver didn't block the corner or safety. Here's the wide receiver blocking the corner of safety and here's a 35 yard explosive run. But watch what happens the next play. Now the defense moves up into the box. Now you can run past them and score a touchdown. So you see how it's good for you. So he explains it to them and they're like, oh, okay, coach. You know,

• 47:30Speaker 08

  I was down in the weight room today and the energy, the positive energy, the camaraderie, the excitement is palpable.

• 47:38Jason Kelce?

  I was at the Miami Dolphins training facilities last year and it's pretty state of the art.

• 47:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Jason Kelce. When we spoke with him in 2023, Kelsey was a longtime member of the Philadelphia Eagles. He played center, the anchor of the offensive line, and he was considered one of the best players at that position in years. In March of last year, Kelsey announced his retirement. He's also the brother of Travis Kelsey, who plays tight end for the Kansas City Chiefs and who may wind up being the best player at his position in history. The brothers played against each other in the 2023 Super Bowl, the Kelsey Bowl, some people called it. Travis's Chiefs won. Since we spoke with Jason Kelce for this episode, the brothers' public profile has only increased. They signed a huge podcast

• 48:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  deal. They appear in what seems to be pretty much every commercial you see on TV. And Travis continued his very public romance with Taylor Swift. Oh, and the Chiefs won another Super Bowl and are going for their third in a row this week. Once again, they're playing the

• 48:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Back then, I asked Jason about his Super Bowl experiences. He was a key part of the Eagles team that won Super Bowl 52 in 2018. And then there was his second one against the Chiefs a few years later.

• 48:57Jason Kelce?

  The intensity and emotions of it are very, very high. But, you know, obviously this being my second one, I had some familiarity with it. The game is the exact same. The emotion and intensity and all of that is going to enhance what's happening in your head.

• 49:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  For better or worse, or it could be either?

• 49:16Jason Kelce?

  Well, it can be both. I think it's worse when you try to do things outside of either your job or, you know, the things that you've done to get there. Chris Long, who had won a Super Bowl in New England right before we played in Super Bowl 52 with the Eagles, his biggest advice was, you know, don't let the moment dictate things to you. Do everything that got us here. And when the play is there, you'll be ready to make the play.

• 49:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did you feel you were able to do that in this past year's Super Bowl?

• 49:46Jason Kelce?

  For the most part, I mean, you always have plays you want back. You're never going to go out there and play a perfect game. And unfortunately, I've found when you lose, you definitely remember the plays that you could have had back.

• 49:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  Did losing a Super Bowl add to your wanting to come back or subtract to wanting to come back?

• 50:02Jason Kelce?

  Unequivocally added to it. And I don't think it should have. It's so hard to get there. And there's so many things that need to happen. Right, right after the game, I wanted to play another season. And I had to really step away and figure out, you know, is this the right thing? Is this the right thing for your body? Is it the right thing for the family? And can you do it? My biggest thing is, I want to do it the way it needs to be done. Being who you are in the meeting room, on the field, around your teammates, investing in that, as well as practicing hard, as well as lifting weights.

• 50:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  On the 2023 team report card, Jason Kelce's Eagles came out middle of the pack, 14th out of 32 teams with As for food and the weight room, but a C minus for the training room and a D for travel. I asked Kelsey if those grades reflected his own views.

• 50:54Jason Kelce?

  I thought it was spot on. I'd be curious to see what the standard deviation on each one of these was. Because when I saw the results, it was almost to the T.

• 51:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  You felt like you were looking at your answers.

• 51:07Jason Kelce?

  Yeah, but I, I know that a lot of guys filled it out.

• 51:11Stephen J. Dubner?

  So for the Eagles, I'm looking at your report card. Strength coaches, A plus. Training staff, A plus. But training room, C minus. Locker room, C plus. Explain why there's such a split there.

• 51:26Jason Kelce?

  I think that both of those rooms are led really well. They do forward innovative things. They're open to discussing things with the players.

• 51:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  Give me an example, if you don't mind, of the forward innovative things.

• 51:40Jason Kelce?

  So there's a whole discrepancy right now in the NFL of do you practice on Wednesdays? Or how many hard days in a row? The strength staff is very involved with the training staff at, one, trying to help players get better, but also to mitigate injuries. And, you know, training camp used to be two a days, hard every single day, three hour practices.

• 52:06Stephen J. Dubner?

  Pads and helmets.

• 52:07Jason Kelce?

  That's right. And now it is much more of a tiered system where one day is a yellow day. And that goes into, one, the intensity of practice, but also the length at which you're out there. Green is, hey, we're getting geared up. This is going to be a barn burner. But it's done in a calculated way that the coaches understand, that the players understand, and that. Is done in scientifically the optimal way for a player to one stay healthy, but also improve.

• 52:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Those changes were the result, I assume, almost entirely of NFLPA, the Players' Union requests and negotiations over the years, not from the teams. But tell me if I'm wrong there.

• 52:50Jason Kelce?

  I would say you're wrong. The two days for sure was a big negotiating factor by the PA before I got into the league. But there is a very large gray area in terms of how long practices are. They can't be over a certain amount of time on the field. But we are, quite frankly, way underneath that threshold. But I think I would be very much remiss if I didn't give credit to the Eagles organization, our strength staff and our training staff at going beyond what the collective NFL mindset is on that.

• 53:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Your team got an A in food service and nutrition.

• 53:29Jason Kelce?

  Let me tell you.

• 53:32Jason Kelce?

  It's so good, Stephen.

• 53:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Why have you not invited me for lunch yet?

• 53:35Jason Kelce?

  Come on over.

• 53:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  All right.

• 53:37Jason Kelce?

  The Eagles, to their credit, have taken that feedback from players since I've been there. It is remarkable how much the cafeteria has changed for the better. And one, the quality of food that's there. And two, the wide range of what you can get.

• 53:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  During the season, are there days where you eat three meals a day at the facility or no?

• 53:57Jason Kelce?

  Yes. Most Wednesdays and Thursdays, I eat breakfast, lunch and dinner there.

• 54:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. So walk me through those meals. I'm not asking you to name everything you eat, but give me a typical breakfast, typical lunch, typical dinner.

• 54:09Jason Kelce?

  My breakfast is usually the, if not the exact same, one item different off. And it used to be Chef Tim. Shout out to Chef Tim. He's no longer with the Eagles. But I usually go in, I get three eggs over easy with three sausage links and breakfast potatoes. And then I go get a bagel with cream cheese on it and honey, and then a cup of blueberries. Lunch, so we have a few stations. We have a station right when you come in, which is really for your clean eating, right? It's going to be some type of Rice or grain, maybe a noodle and some veggies that have been cooked.

• 54:50Jason Kelce?

  And then to the left of that, there's going to be a pretty clean, low fat added type of meat. Right. And then the more you go left, you'll get a little bit of fried stuff. Right. So if you're in the mood for some french fries or like a sausage, sandwich, hoagie. And then if you go even left of that, this is probably my favorite station. They've gone to a like regional dish. A lot of times in season, it's based on a player's favorite food or where they're from.

• 55:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  Give me a, for instance.

• 55:23Jason Kelce?

  Well, for me, I went to Thailand one year, so I had them do Penang curry with naan bread. Just absolutely one of my favorite dishes. Another day, it might be, I think it was either Fletcher Cox or Brandon Graham was smothered pork chops.

• 55:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay. So I can see why that gets an A. The D grade that Eagles got for team travel, would you agree with that assessment?

• 55:46Jason Kelce?

  That might've been lower than what I ranked it, but I did not rank it high. If I was any higher, it was a C.

• 55:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm reading here, it says only half of the players feel they have enough room to spread out. I guess that's on the plane. You don't have roommates in a hotel at least, which some teams do. But you're one of only seven teams that don't offer first class seats to their players.

• 56:06Jason Kelce?

  And I did not know that before this study. When Chip Kelly was a head coach, he did allow, obviously everybody can't sit in first class, but he did allow starters and players who are extremely large to sit in the first class seats instead of the coaches. It's a nice perk. Anybody who sat first class knows that those seats are pretty nice. You know, we have a player, Jordan Malata, who's north of 6'6" and 400 pounds almost. He's going to struggle to fit any situation in the back of the plane. I will say, there was one point, we were coming back on a short flight and they didn't like turn the TVs on on the back of the seats. And I remember just flipping them. We're a billion dollar organization and we can't even get free movies on these flights.

• 56:50Jason Kelce?

  Like what's going on here, guys?

• 56:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  Who'd you say that to?

• 56:53Jason Kelce?

  I said that to one of the stewardesses and then one of the guys that runs everything for logistics with the team. Kind of came back and he's like, all right, we're going to turn the TVs on, Jason. So.

• 57:05Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, what about being charged for food in Arizona, let's say? Did that surprise you?

• 57:10Jason Kelce?

  It didn't. That's the way it was in Philly my first few years, in the offseason at least. You know, we went to Arizona and we used the Arizona Cardinals facilities. And I can say firsthand, they are not investing in this place. The weight room had, I'm not kidding you, the mats of the weight room were like, I don't know if they had water moisture that was getting in there, but the rubber mat that was on top of the concrete floor was like peeling up on the corners of it. You're like walking on an uneven surface the whole time. I was like, how are people not just getting hurt in here? It was eye openingly bad, in my opinion.

• 57:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  What about the rats in Jacksonville? Did that surprise you?

• 57:46Jason Kelce?

  Not one bit. I mean, come on, man. I've gotten in trouble for talking trash on Jacksonville one time, so I gotta calm it down. But yeah, that stadium, I have not been to much and I'm very thankful of that.

• 57:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you think this report card will lead to any change?

• 58:01Jason Kelce?

  I do. It's already led to change. They installed a much larger cold pool in the actual training room. We used to have two above ground pools out back, which I always, you know, we're a billion dollar organization with above ground pools. I think we can maybe do better than this.

• 58:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Above ground outdoors, like in the winter?

• 58:21Jason Kelce?

  So they would have to shut them down in the winter and that was a big issue with it. So they've already made corrections on that. I believe they're addressing some of the family issues at games. The weight room is adding another tier that's going to add more footprint for more bikes and other workout equipment. I do think teams are going to respond to it, just like players are competitive. I think owners are competitive. And I think that owners are certainly a good portion of owners are not going to like seeing their organization viewed in a negative light. And I think that they're going to try and correct these things.

• 58:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  What can the rest of us learn from this process of a union representing the workers, goes in, asks everybody a lot of questions, and then produces a report, and it lands, and now we're going to see what happens? What should we be learning from this? What would you say to a CEO who might be listening to this and saying, holy cow? Yeah, like, this is low hanging fruit. I fixed the mats in the weight room and I don't have Jason Kelce trashing me.

• 59:26Jason Kelce?

  That's right. I think unequivocally that more unions should be doing this. It's different when one person comes to you with an anecdote or a one-off, as opposed to a literal survey of your entire workforce, saying, this is what we think of the place that you have us operate in. For CEOs and owners, I think that seeing it this way gives you a much more realistic idea of what your workplace environment is. So I would want this information. And as a worker, I would want my boss to know this, but to also not be punished if I tell him to his face. So I'm a big fan of this survey.

• 1:00:09Jason Kelce?

  I think that it will lead to a lot of change in some of these NFL organizations, especially if it's done on an annual basis. And I see no reason why other fields or places of business would not follow suit and try to make changes as well. Nobody wants to be known as the cheapskate. I think that when, as before, when it was rumored you were the cheapskate, it was harder to prove. Now there's data.

• 1:00:42Speaker 05

  We want to live in a world where we're giving out 32 A pluses for all the teams. That, again, is J.C. Tretter. And when we went into this year one, I told the staff when we started it, like, if all that comes from this is four teams start giving dinner to those players, it's a win.

• 1:01:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, I'm curious to know what you've heard from teams about the survey. Have you heard anything directly from the teams?

• 1:01:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, we've heard from about 12 to 15 teams who have reached out to us just to say like, what can we do better? Can you give us more information? What changes would make us better? I give credit to like Arthur Blank, who's the owner for the Atlanta Falcons. There was an article written where he said he pulled his president and GM and head coach aside and told them, one, if this comes out again, they absolutely cannot be graded as low as they were before. And also that they need to start being more proactive and it shouldn't take this type of thing to create the change. Like they should be, as leaders of the organization, be looking around corners and realizing where they're weak and where they need to improve. I don't know Arthur well. From people who do, it seems like it's not just lip service and that he's going to act on those words.

• 1:01:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  After the report cards were released, the Falcons announced a $30 million upgrade to their locker room, weight room and cafeteria. Although they also said the renovations had already been planned and they were not done in response to the report card, where they came in 23rd out of 32 teams.

• 1:02:08Speaker 05

  Those are the things you want to see. Like, don't get defensive about this. That's not what we're hoping for. We're hoping that people see like, okay, this team's providing this, this and this. Maybe we should provide that too. Because in the end, as adversaries, sometimes we are, the teams need the players and the players need the franchises.

• 1:02:25Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you plan to do the survey every year?

• 1:02:27Speaker 05

  Yes. And year two is going to be more important than year one because year one, owners could claim ignorance. I think more will claim ignorance than should claim ignorance. And for some of it, I'm sure they didn't know. Like, I don't think many owners are hanging out in the hot tubs with the guys. And if they do, that's a story of itself that we should be diving into of why are they hanging out in the hot tubs with the guys? But year two, now that this is out there, if some things aren't changed, you can't claim ignorance anymore.

• 1:02:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Considering that an NFL workplace is substantially different in many ways from a typical workplace, what's there to be learned from this survey for workers and employers who have nothing to do with pro sports, et cetera?

• 1:03:09Speaker 05

  The teams are called franchises, and I think that's a connector outside of our industry. I think there is an expectation that everything is equal in the NFL. And I think everybody would think it's equal at Starbucks, and equal at Chick-fil-A, and equal at McDonald's. And you go to a franchise, the rules and the treatment of the workers are the same. And I think we know that's not true. And if you're a worker, I think it would be valuable to know the treatment you will receive if you decide to work at one franchise versus another. And I also think if you're the overall company, it would be interesting to see how your franchises who are carrying your name and dictating your brand image, how they treat their workers and how they treat their customers, and how that varies across different franchise operators.

• 1:03:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  I went back to Tom Garfinkel, the Miami Dolphins CEO and president, with a similar question. What kind of lessons are there to be drawn from this report card for the companies that aren't NFL teams? Are there things that are applicable, or is the NFL work environment just too different to be useful for comparison?

• 1:04:16Speaker 08

  No, I think it's definitely useful for comparison. I think it comes down to culture, values and standards, investment into your people. I'm a believer that people need to work together physically. Certain jobs, certain, you know, if you're coding, sitting at your computer all day and that's all you do, you could probably do that as easily from home as from an office. But most environments are still very human. They rely on human interaction. And investing in those environments and investing in that organic interaction enhances creativity, it enhances productivity, it enhances... People want meaning, right? It goes back to Viktor Frankl and everything. I think meaning matters, and I think what we do, it's more than sports, it's more than football.

• 1:05:00Speaker 08

  It's about meaning, it's about social interaction, and we bring people together to experience life together. It's still better to be in a stadium when someone catches that pass in the fourth quarter to win a football game than to watch it on television by yourself at home, because you're experiencing it with other people. And whether it's that as a fan or whether it's employees interacting together in the workplace, particularly in environments like this one, and many are like this, where people work very hard. They work long hours and you're with your coworkers a lot and you want it to be inspiring. You want it to inspire creativity, productivity, happiness, positivity. And I think that's the bigger lesson in all this than anything football related.

• 1:05:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  I have to say, when we started working on this episode about workplace conditions in the NFL, I never thought we'd end up at Viktor Frankl, but I'm glad we did. Frankl was an Austrian psychologist, a Holocaust survivor, best known for writing Man's Search for Meaning. If you haven't read it, I'd suggest you do. It will make you think as it made Tom Garfinkel think. Thanks to him, as well as all the other guests on today's show. Also, let me share an update on the 2024 NFL Players Association report card. The Philadelphia Eagles jumped from 14th out of 32 teams all the way up to fourth. Too bad Jason Kelce had retired and wasn't around to enjoy that. The Eagles' opponent

• 1:06:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  in the upcoming Super Bowl, the Kansas City Chiefs, still get lousy marks on their report card, ranking 31st due to poor facilities and low grades for team owner Clark Hunt. The biggest jump on the ratings list was the Jacksonville Jaguars, who went from 28th to fifth, thanks to upgrades in their facilities, which are now rat-free. And the very best team to work for, according to the 2024 report card, was the Miami Dolphins, in part because Tom Garfinkel kept the promise he told us about to fix the family room. Second and third this year were the Minnesota Vikings and the Green Bay Packers. That's it for

• 1:07:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  this update. We will be back soon with another new episode. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else, too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. This episode was produced by Ryan Kelly and updated by Dalvin Abawaji and Teo Jacobs. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Alina Coleman, Augusta Chapman, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Jasmine Klinger, Jeremy Johnston, John Schnars, Morgan Levy, Neil Carruth, Sarah Lilly, and Zach Lepinski. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app or at Freakonomics.com, where we also publish transcripts and show notes. Our theme song is "Mr. Fortune" by The Hitchhikers. Our composer is Luis Guerra.

• 1:08:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  As always, thanks for listening.

• 1:08:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  How'd you bowl today, by the way?

• 1:08:10Jason Kelce?

  Terrible. It was one of my worst outings. The lines were slick. They put too much oil on.

• 1:08:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, come on, come on, come on.

• 1:08:15Jason Kelce?

  Wasn't ideal.

• 1:08:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  A poor carpenter blames his tools.

• 1:08:18Jason Kelce?

  That's fair.

• 1:08:25Speaker 04

  The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything.

• 1:08:33Speaker 04

  Stitcher.