MURDERED: JonBenét Ramsey

The morning after Christmas Day 1996, six-year-old JonBenét Ramsey was reported missing only for her body to be discovered hours later in her family’s home. Nearly three decades later, the questions remain: What really happened that night? Who is responsible for her death? And why has this case gone unsolved for so long? For years, Ashley Flowers vowed never to cover this infamous case – unless she could hear directly from the Ramsey family. In this episode, Ashley Flowers and Brit Prawat explore the chilling details of JonBenét’s case, the infamous ransom note, and the lingering theories surrounding the investigation. With exclusive insights from JonBenét’s father, John Ramsey, this is a story you won’t want to miss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:30Ashley Flowers?

  When you're out in nature, you learn to trust your instincts. You pay attention to the trail, your surroundings, and you stay alert to protect yourself from harm. But what if the biggest threat isn't the environment at all? On Park Predators, host Delia Diambra explores true crime cases that happen in national parks and remote wildernesses, the places we usually think of as safe and peaceful. Each episode reveals what happened and how much more there is beneath the surface. Listen to Park Predators now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, crime junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  And I'm Britt.

• 1:05Ashley Flowers?

  I am doing the case that I said I would never do. The case that is our crime junkie origin story.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've said it a million times, but, I mean, never say never, right?

• 1:17Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And like, I think it is for a long time, I just didn't think that there was anything that I could add.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:24Ashley Flowers?

  Like, it's been done, you know, seven ways to Sunday. I literally feel like there are more like, or less versions of the Bible than there are of like, books written by people who like, maybe even tangentially touched this case.

• 1:34Speaker 02

  So like, what would we have to add?

• 1:35Ashley Flowers?

  Right, that's kind of how it always felt. But, what I didn't realize is like, I didn't know the whole story. And I, of course, am talking about the case of Jean-Bené Ramsey.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  And when you say like, our origin story, like, we were tabloid height when it happened. This is what made us crime junkies.

• 1:55Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, people always ask, like, how did you become a crime junkie? And I'm like, you know, my mom, my grandma, they got me into mysteries, I was reading everything. But really, we're about the same age as Jean-Bené, which her dad reminded me of when I sat down with him. And we were in the grocery store. And it was like, the first time you look at somebody who looks like you, who's your age.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  And all you see is like, murdered across her forehead.

• 2:18Ashley Flowers?

  And it's when those like, mysteries, I was like, oh, this thing, these kind of things happen in real life. So for a generation who didn't grow up tabloid height staring into the green eyes of a beauty queen in the making, and for those of us who did, but maybe don't know all the facts, or maybe just know this case like on a surface level, and you want to really know how we got here and what you can do now, I got you. I have dug deep. I thought I knew everything there was to know about JonBenet because I grew up with the case, but I found out that what I knew was just the tip of the freaking iceberg, you guys. I have all the same questions that you do, and I even got to ask those questions to

• 3:00Ashley Flowers?

  one of the people at the center of this case, someone who has been dubbed a child killer by the media, but says that it is all a lie, and he and his family have been victimized twice, once by an unknown killer and once again by the media. And I actually filmed my conversation with him. You can find that and this episode on the Crime Junkie YouTube channel, and I promise you, you're not gonna want to miss it. But first, let me tell you the story, not from any side. I have no theory. I thought one thing when I was young, another thing when I was older, but what I realized when I actually dug deep is that I never had a real understanding of the facts, and that is what I hope to give you.

• 3:44Ashley Flowers?

  So if you are looking for a one-stop-shop to give you the case a layer deeper than you will hear anywhere else, this episode's for you. This is the story of JonBenet Ramsey.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  911 emergency. Hello, we're in. Police. What's going on? 5515 Street. What's going on there ma'am? We got a kidnapping. Hurry, please. Explain to me what's going on, okay? There, we have a note left in our daughter's car. A note was left in your daughter's car? Yes. How old is your daughter? She's six years old. She's gone. Six years old.

• 4:52Speaker 03

  How long ago was this? I don't know. I took down the note. Oh my god. Does it say who took her? What? Does it say who took her? I don't know. There's a ransom note here. It's a ransom note? It says S B T C. Victory.

• 5:12Speaker 03

  Please. Okay, what's your name? Are you? Patty Lamb. I'm the lover. Oh my god. Please. Okay, I'm sending you an ultrasound, okay? Do you know how long she's been gone? No, I don't. Please, we just got after she right here. Oh my god, please. Okay. Call somebody. I am, honey. Please. Take a deep breath, Patty, okay? Hurry, hurry. Patty? Patty? Patty? Patty?

• 5:39Ashley Flowers?

  That feels like the 911 call heard around the world by this point. But when it first came into Boulder Police on December 26, 1996, at 5:52 in the morning, they had no clue how infamous this call was going to become. All they knew was that they had a report of a kidnapping in an upscale neighborhood of their safe little community. Now Patty says that she made two more calls to friends of theirs after the 911 call, the Whites and the Fernies. She was asking them to come over for support before she went to pace in front of their window. Now, what in actuality was probably just a couple of minutes felt to her like hours. And when the marked car pulled up at 5:55, she says her heart sank because the ransom

• 6:24Ashley Flowers?

  letter had said not to call police and that kidnappers were watching. And if they saw police, that they would hurt Jean Benet. But it was too late now. When Officer French made it inside, John immediately took him to where the three-page handwritten ransom note was like splayed out on the wooden floor just off the kitchen near the stairs that Patsy had found it on. And Britt, I'm gonna have you, would you mind actually reading it?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Oh, sure. The ransom note says, "Mr. Ramsey, listen carefully. We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business, but not the country that it serves. At this time, we have your daughter in our possession. She is safe and unharmed. If you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter. You will withdraw $118,000 from your account. $100,000 will be in $100 bills, and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure that you bring an adequate-sized attache to the bank. When you get home, you will put the money in a brown paper bag.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  I will call you between 8:00 and 10:00 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The delivery will be exhausting, so I advise you to be rested. If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money, and hence, an earlier pickup of your daughter. Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for a proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you, so I advise you not to provoke them. Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as police, FBI, etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. You will be scanned for electronic devices, and if any are found, she dies. You can try to deceive us, but be warned that we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics. You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us. Follow our instructions, and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back." You and your family are under constant scrutiny, as well as the authorities. Don't try to grow a brain, John. You are not the only fat cat around, so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John. Use that good, southern common sense of yours.

• 8:58Speaker 02

  It's up to you now, John. Victory. S B T C.

• 9:05Ashley Flowers?

  So, okay, so that's the letter that they're working with. And what we know is the Ramses had an alarm system, but they hadn't set it the night before, or actually, even in a long time, not since it had gone off accidentally and scared the living pants off JonBenet and her older brother Burke, who, by the way, is nine at this point, and still asleep upstairs in his room, according to Mom and Dad. Now, they say that they had checked on him once, when they realized that JonBenet was missing, but once they saw that he was okay, they wanted to just let him sleep. I'm assuming they probably just didn't want him to worry till they had a better idea of what was going on, and like, what they were gonna do. Like, once they knew that there was gonna be help, then they would worry about it. So, Officer French does this quick skim of the house. And I say "quick," but this puppy

• 9:50Ashley Flowers?

  was over 6,000, I mean, I've heard one place like 7,000 square feet, had like 15 rooms, four different floors, if you include the basement. But French does this quick look-through. He doesn't see anything that jumps out. His report says that there were no signs of forced entry, or a struggle, and obviously, no signs of the missing six-year-old. So, he moved to instructing another officer, Sergeant Reichenbach, to control the scene. And A, I don't know when Reichenbach showed up, but you'll see more people kind of start, like, flooding in. And B, controlling the scene is a loose term in this story, and something Boulder Police will get roasted for down the line, because within 15 minutes

• 10:32Ashley Flowers?

  of French's arrival, those friends that Patsy had called start showing up. Priscilla and Fleet White had been their first call, followed by John and Barbara Ferny, and somehow, the family priest gets contacted along the way. And like, one by one, these people are showing up, and they're there by like 7:13. Now, while John Ramsey made calls to try and line up that $118,000 that the kidnapper had asked for, more and more people were showing up too. So, they had victim advocates that came to the house. There were finally some detectives that got there by like 8:10 that morning, namely Linda Arndt, who was charged with managing the situation. Now, what John told me that he didn't know at the time

• 11:13Ashley Flowers?

  were that these weren't seasoned homicide or missing persons detectives. What the detectives didn't know at the time was that this wasn't a missing persons case.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  When the holiday shopping season rolls around, business owners are reminded of how rewarding and demanding it can be to run an online store. For anyone developing a business idea or looking to start selling products, now is the ideal time to launch before the holiday rush hits full speed. That is where Shopify comes in. Shopify helps you launch a store and start selling in a few simple steps without needing to be an e-commerce expert. Whether you're organizing product options or setting up your storefront, Sidekick, Shopify's AI assistant, can help with business tasks along the way. Plus, launching before Black Friday means you can take advantage of all the extra online traffic when millions of eager shoppers are already browsing and ready to buy. On behalf of the entire Crime Junkie team, I can promise you our merch launches would be lost without Shopify. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday,

• 12:12Speaker 02

  go to Shopify.com/crimejunkie to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/crimejunkie. Go to Shopify.com/crimejunkie today to hear your first...

• 12:26Speaker 02

  'Tis the season for family festivities and, let's be honest, a lot of extra spending. Between traveling and preparing holiday meals, the last thing you want to worry about is overpaying for your prescriptions. That's where GoodRx comes in. GoodRx makes it easy to take control of your health and protect your budget, offering savings on cold and flu medications and even your everyday prescriptions. GoodRx is free and super easy to use. You just search for your medication on their website or app, compare prices, and bring the free coupon to show your pharmacist to save at over 70,000 local pharmacies nationwide, including Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, and many more. Remember, GoodRx is not insurance, but works whether you have insurance or not, and it could even beat your insurance copay price. I've been using GoodRx for years as my kind of secret cheat code to know I'm getting the lowest prices for my family's prescriptions.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Save time and money on your prescriptions. Check out GoodRx at GoodRx.com/crimejunkie. That's GoodRx.com/crimejunkie.

• 13:23Ashley Flowers?

  As the clock ticked, every moment in the house was tense. Burke Ramsey, JonBenet's nine-year-old brother, had been woken up and removed from the home by this point. Their friend Fleet White, who was one of the people Patsy had called to come over, he had taken Burke back to their house. And while Patsy cried in one room with her friends by her side, John was in another, taking instructions from Detective Arndt about what to do if the kidnapper called. And he's like going through the mail. He told me to see if there's any other communications from the kidnapper. And he told me that he was in just like do-do-do mode, like action mode. He thought that if he kept his wits about him, that's the saying he always used. If I keep my wits about me, then if I'm smart, like I could still actually get my daughter back.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  I can figure this out.

• 14:08Ashley Flowers?

  Right. Now, plenty of people had been looking around the house without finding anything. But John wanted to keep moving. So at some point that morning, exact time, a little fuzzy TBD, but at some point that morning, he went down to the basement.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Which, this is a point that Boulder Police gets roasted on, right? Like, people are just all over the house, contaminating the crap out of like, what is actually a crime scene?

• 14:34Ashley Flowers?

  Oh yeah, they, it's kinda wild. They had blocked off JonBenet's room like five hours after Detective French got to the house. But everything else was like a free-for-all, like have at it. It seems like people were all over the place, nothing was off limits.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Except JonBenet's room.

• 14:49Ashley Flowers?

  Except her room, right?

• 14:51Speaker 02

  And there's nothing that stands out about her room, right?

• 14:54Ashley Flowers?

  No, I mean like, so her covers were pulled back, like someone had got her out of bed. There's some stuff that becomes interesting a little bit later, which I can get into, but nothing that really stands out in there. It looks like a room that a kid had just kind of truly gotten like plucked out from in the middle of the night. So, to get back to it though, so John goes to the basement at some point that morning. When he did his 1997 interview, his best guess was like, maybe it was sometime around or before 10 a.m. But he goes down, he doesn't report finding anything to Detective Arndt or any of the other officers. Now, no one made no of the time when 10 o'clock came and went and there was no

• 15:37Ashley Flowers?

  communication from the kidnapper, like they said in the note. There were calls throughout the morning, I mean, at least three, according to Detective Arnt's report, and each time John would run to the phone, he would answer the call, but each time it was just some well-meaning friend checking in and like, word was spreading at this point. Now, Linda Arnt kept paging for backup. She had kicked a good number of people out of the house by this point, officers, the victim advocates, but all of the family friends were still there, and it was a hard scene to control. But page after page, she was getting no response, and when she tried to phone in, she was told that everyone was in a meeting, that's what she said in her Good Morning America interview. So it's just, she's not getting the help that she needs.

• 16:19Ashley Flowers?

  And as more time passed, Linda Arnt felt like she needed to keep John's mind occupied. By 12:30, she makes a note that he seems to be isolating himself and just kind of staring, like, so she's like, I gotta give him something to do. So after a conversation with one of the family friends, Fleet White, she suggests to John that excluding JonBenet's room, he should check the house top to bottom, see if there's anything even missing. John took the instruction to heart, but he decided instead to search bottom to top. At 1 PM, he went for the door to the basement, with Fleet close behind him, and within five minutes, everything was chaos. There was screams, Fleet was bounding up the stairs, and Detective Arnt made it to

• 17:04Ashley Flowers?

  the doorway in time to see John coming up the final few steps, like, holding JonBenet by her waist. Her body was already stiff with rigor, her head was turned to one side, and her arms were above her head with some kind of like white string or cord rope kind of thing hanging from one of her wrists. Detective Arnt told John, you like, put JonBenet down by the front door. She said that her lips were already blue, like, she knew she was dead, but she still checks for a pulse anyway, but she was cold to the touch when she touches her. So Linda Arndt moved JonBenet's body to another spot on the first floor, and Jon asked to cover her up with a blanket, which she let him do.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  Which is more contamination.

• 17:47Ashley Flowers?

  This is like the worst-case scenario here. Because it's not even just the blanket, like Jon held her at some point. Like, he's like laying on the floor. And when Patsy comes into the room, she laid on top of her while she's crying. Like, literally, she's like praying to Jesus, like asking him. I think the line is like, "You raised Lazarus, like, please raise my baby." So, to your point, like, you have all of this contamination happening. But Linda Arndt called 911, telling them, like, "I need an ambulance, I need a coroner." Like, whatever, like, the delay isn't getting people here, like, you have to get people here now. She called again, when they still hadn't come, a few minutes later. And then again, after she saw an ambulance drive past the house. So this is like the Murphy's Law of crime scenes.

• 18:31Ashley Flowers?

  Everything that could go wrong was going wrong. But now it was time for everyone to get out, Ramses and friends included. So while a search warrant was being obtained for the house, and JonBenet was sent off for autopsy, detectives tried to speak more with the family. One detective was sent to go talk to Burke, who basically just told him, like, "Everything in our house was normal." Like, "Our parents weren't abusive, there weren't any arguments on or leading up to Christmas Day." So like, nothing meaningful from him. And that evening, Linda Arndt and another detective went to speak with Jon Ramsay. They were staying at a friend's house, and by the time Linda got there, there were even more people that had come to be with them. They had more friends, even the family doctor, Dr. Buff was there.

• 19:14Ashley Flowers?

  And sometimes he's called the family doctor, sometimes he's called JonBenet's pediatrician, it might be like a little bit of both. He'd given Patsy a Valium, so Linda didn't see her when she came by. But she did get to talk to Jon for about 40 minutes. And it's worth noting that she talked to Jon during her time at the home as well. Like, so she and others had gotten the initial story of the day, like, or days leading up to JonBenet's death. And Jon points to this fact a lot when I talk to him. Because if you know this story, you'll know that a big part of the narrative is the fact that the family, they say they didn't cooperate. They didn't talk to police for a long time. But Jon points to this, and he says, "Look, yes, we did. We talked to them in our home, and in our friend's home." And that is true.

• 19:56Ashley Flowers?

  And it is also true that they stopped cooperating after that 40-minute meeting. And here's why. So, according to John Ramsey, he told me he had gotten a call within the first, like, day or two, we're talking the 26th, 27th, from the person, he told me, who ran his HR at his company. And they told him, like, "Hey, I have this inside source telling me that the police are looking at you and Patsy for this. You need to lawyer up." Well, advice taken, because of the friends who were sitting alongside John Ramsey that evening when Linda had come during that, like, 40-minute conversation, was a guy named Mike Bynum.

• 20:38Ashley Flowers?

  Mike was John Ramsey's corporate counsel at his company. So, when police had left that night, like, after that 40-minute thing, they suggested a formal sit-down with the Ramses. Obviously tensions were high, Patsy was currently incapacitated, and the majority of their interactions had been when they thought that JonBenet was a missing person. Like, there was plenty more questions that needed to be asked by police, which I agree with. Like, at least everything that made it into the reports about the conversations they had in those early days when they were speaking, it's pretty surface-level. I mean, we get some, like, immediate people that they suspect, does anything in the notes stand out to them, like, who has keys to the house, etc. But if they were going to find out who killed JonBenet, they were gonna have to go a few layers deeper.

• 21:24Ashley Flowers?

  So Linda suggested, like, "Let's do this sit-down at the station on the 28th." But, either in that moment, or maybe later, it's not totally clear from Linda's report, it seems like Mike put the kibosh on that. And listen, like, we gotta rule for a reason, right? Like, always get a lawyer. But this is the beginning of a decades-long battle between the Ramses and, I think, police? Question mark? But like, who is behind what in this case, as you'll come to see, is pretty convoluted. So the Ramses don't go talk to police on the 28th. They do have a closed memorial service that day for Jean Benet in Colorado before they leave town.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  Which I knew happened, but it was that soon?

• 22:11Ashley Flowers?

  Yes, so John Ramsey says that they wanted to go back to Atlanta where their support system was. I mean, they had only just moved to Boulder like a handful of years before this, like in 91, because his company had gotten bought out by Lockheed. So he says that he still thought of Atlanta as home. Like, they always had planned to move back, and like, that's where they were planning to bury Jean Benet in the same cemetery as her older half-sister, who had died in a car accident a few years before. And interestingly about his company, like, that bought Access Graphics, Lockheed, John raves about them. Like, you'll see that in my sit-down with him. But one of the things that they did after Jean Benet's death was, they had offered John a company plane to take him to Atlanta.

• 22:55Ashley Flowers?

  So, the company plane takes him to Atlanta, 29th, 30th goes by, 31st is Jean Benet's funeral. And then the first, all media hell breaks loose. In a move that John Ramsey himself will later call a mistake, he and Patsy decide to go on CNN. I feel like this is like the, one of the most like famous parts of this case that you can like, I can see that.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  I can see it.

• 23:19Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. Now, they haven't had a formal sit-down with police, but they have this sit-down with the media, and it rubs people all of the wrong ways.

• 23:28Speaker 04

  Yes, Ramsey, you found the note. It was a handwritten note, three pages.

• 23:34Speaker 05

  I didn't, um, I couldn't read the whole thing. I, I'd just gotten up, we were on our, it was the day after Christmas, and we were going to go visiting. And it was quite early in the morning, and I had gotten dressed and was on my way to the kitchen to make some coffee.

• 24:02Speaker 05

  And we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas. And I always come down that staircase. And I'm usually the first one down. And the note was lying across the three pages, across the run of one of the stair treads. And it was kind of dimly lit because it was very early in the morning. And I started to read it. And it was addressed to John. It said, "Mr. Ramsey."

• 24:43Speaker 05

  And it said, "We have your daughter." And I, you know, it just wasn't registering. And I may have gotten through another sentence like, "We have your daughter." And I don't know if I got any further than that. And I immediately ran back upstairs and pushed open her door. And she was not in her bed. And I screamed for John.

• 25:17Speaker 04

  And John, you've subsequently read the note. Was there anything in there that struck you in any sense?

• 25:25Speaker 06

  Well, no. I mean, I read it very fast. I was out of my mind. And it said, "Don't call the police." You know, that type of thing. And I told Patsy to call the police immediately. And I think I ran through the house a bit.

• 25:47Speaker 05

  We went to check our son.

• 25:49Speaker 06

  Checked her son's room. Sometimes she sleeps in here. And we just were.

• 25:56Speaker 05

  We were just frantic.

• 25:58Speaker 04

  The police said a couple of days ago to assure other residents of Boulder, there is no killer on the loose here. You can be assured everything is under control. Do you believe it's someone outside your home?

• 26:13Speaker 05

  There is a killer on the loose. I don't know who it is. I don't know if it's a he or a she. But if I were a resident of Boulder, I would tell my friends to keep, keep your babies close to you.

• 26:37Speaker 05

  There's someone out there. You know, America has just been hurt so deeply with the, this, the tragic things that have happened. The young woman who drove her children into the water. And we don't know what happened with the O.J. Simpson. And, I mean, America is suffering because they, they have lost faith in the American family.

• 27:12Speaker 05

  We are a Christian, God-fearing family. We love our children. We would do anything for our children.

• 27:27Ashley Flowers?

  So this interview that they did was actually a lot quicker than I had in my head. I don't know why. Like, growing up, I thought this was like this, like, long special where they gave. Yeah, like a big sit-down. Yeah, statements about everything. But I feel like the part that you heard about the note was like, honestly, the most detail that we got. I think in total, it ends up being like a, I think I heard the CNN anchor say, like, 40-minute thing. But there were other, like, little things here and there. But mostly... Overall, it was the Ramses' opportunity to let the public know that they were unhappy with the direction of the investigation. They didn't think that the Boulder Police Department had the right resources allocated to the case. And so they were going to be putting together their own investigative team and offering up a reward.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  So, did you ask John why they agreed to do something like this?

• 28:17Ashley Flowers?

  Well, just to be clear, they didn't agree to like some incoming ask. Like, John had a friend who knew the president of CNN, so they really made this interview happen.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 28:28Ashley Flowers?

  But John said something, this was one of the more interesting parts of our interview, about why they decided to do this in the first place. And listen, I have heard this guy talk a lot. I've read his books, I've seen the interviews that he's done. I mean, his life story is drilled into him, like word for word. He has had a lifetime of people probably asking him the same questions over and over. And he gives the same answers over and over because he is consistent. And in the past, what I've seen or read is that he talks about how his friends thought that they should go on, they should tell their version of events, that they should defend themselves. And what he told me still was that his friends were the ones really pushing the interview.

• 29:13Ashley Flowers?

  But the reason behind why was different.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  If you haven't checked out Live Shopping yet, you are seriously missing out. Whatnot is the top destination for live shopping, and it is completely transforming how we shop online. Unlike traditional online stores where you're just scrolling through static photos, Whatnot brings real-time excitement. You get to hang out with engaging sellers who love what they love, interact in lively chats, and jump on incredible deals you can't find anywhere else. And you guys, the sheer amount and range of items is mind-boggling. Everything from fashion, beauty, and designer handbags to vintage clothing and rare collectibles. Whatnot has become my go-to to shop the items I want in an honestly really exciting way. I was able to snag a really cute vintage handbag at a kind of unbelievable price, and getting to see it in real-time was really helpful and so much fun.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Download Whatnot today and get $20 off your first live purchase. Search "Whatnot," that's W-H-A-T-N-O-T, in the App Store. Sign up and take a shopping trip. Terms apply.

• 30:16Ashley Flowers?

  Remember being a kid around the holidays? And anytime you would ask for something, mom would always say, "Wait until the holidays." Well, with Mint Mobile's holiday deal, there's no waiting. Right now, this second, all of their plans are $15 a month. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right with premium wireless for $15 a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even bring your current phone and your number. Choose from three, six, or 12-month plans and say goodbye to a monthly bill. It's so easy. Sign up online and get premium wireless service for $15 a month. So what are you waiting for? To get your new wireless plan for $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com/crimejunkie.

• 31:01Ashley Flowers?

  That's mintmobile.com/crimejunkie. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com/crimejunkie. Limited-time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required, $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabyte may slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 31:31Ashley Flowers?

  Okay, so in our sit-down, Jon Ramsey told me that his friends wanted him to go on CNN to protect Boulder.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  What does that even mean?

• 31:43Ashley Flowers?

  Great question. I asked it, and I didn't really get a totally clear answer. And this is truly where, when you're done with the episode, I'm telling people you have to go watch the interview with him. It's on YouTube. He just kept saying that Boulder was this weird place, like this bubble where reality was like outside of it. Like, I know I'm not making sense, but like, it didn't really make sense to me. And I don't know, in talking to them and like seeing stuff that they'd done in the past, it doesn't seem like they liked the place all that much. I mean, it was a far cry from the conservative South, where they'd come from. Either way, I'm not sure that they nailed the assignment.

• 32:25Ashley Flowers?

  Remember, like, Patsy fully still did like a hide your kids, hide your wife, we've got a killer like roaming the streets kind of thing. So like, wasn't all pro Boulder.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  I've always wondered a little if she went like off book in that interview. Like, you can kind of tell she's still pretty medicated, like.

• 32:41Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and listen, like, people have all of the thoughts on both parents, but lots of thoughts on Patsy at the time. And here's what I'll say. I don't think that that interview is a fair one to read into too much. Like, behavior on camera wise, just because, I mean, you're talking a week out from when their daughter was murdered. I don't know that I could even sit up straight like at that point, like, if it were me. And so it might be one of the first times that Patsy was upright. I mean, she even said that like, in those first few days, she was so out of it that John and like her friends were literally having to feed her and to bathe her, help her go to the bathroom. So demeanor, like, in my mind, like, throw this out the window.

• 33:26Ashley Flowers?

  But I do think we need to talk about the substance of that interview. The words matter, especially when we're going to get into some of the statements, like the early statements from them about what happened on December 25th and December 26th. Now, like I said, there wasn't a lot of substance in what we got. But there were the first signs of cracks, at least compared to what's in Officer French's report from the 26th and Detective Arn's report, which technically she actually hadn't written up yet when they go on CNN. She actually writes up hers a week from that, on January 8th. So there's also, you know, how much is lost in her memory in that time between writing it.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  So were there a lot of inconsistencies in the little that we did get?

• 34:12Ashley Flowers?

  No, so the only one that really pops out is when Patsy was talking about seeing the letter and then going to Jean Benet's room to see if she was there. In some of the early reports, there is a note that mentions her actually going and checking Jean Benet's room first and then going down the stairs and finding the note.

• 34:34Ashley Flowers?

  But there are no follow-up questions. Like, after this, like, interview is over. And despite what they seemingly told CNN, like, told the reporter, because at the time, they're like, "Yeah, we are gonna go back to Boulder. We're gonna work with police. Like, we're gonna do anything we can to cooperate and help find our daughter's killer." But that doesn't actually happen.

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Okay, but why not?

• 34:52Ashley Flowers?

  I know. So, it's what eats people alive. No one can understand why they wouldn't just sit down with police and go through the facts that day, in the days leading up to it as well. Like, the intimate details of their lives. Like, there is so much that police just don't know at this point. And again, I will acknowledge, I do see that that first day or two, you know, everyone's still trying to figure out everything there. But there's, they did talk, but there is this huge gap in what police know about their lives from that. And I get it. Like, I wanna shake them too and be like, just like, help them help you. Like, even, I don't know if you remember Polly Class, her story, but her dad eventually speaks out about this, and he's like, "I don't get it.

• 35:36Ashley Flowers?

  Like, I did everything I could when my daughter was murdered. I begged them to give me a polygraph so that they could move beyond me."

• 35:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:44Ashley Flowers?

  But John will just tell you, like, till he is blue in the face, that they were following the advice of the lawyers that they had. And why have these lawyers if you're not gonna listen to them? And by the way, their lawyer game has been upped by this point. They're no longer just relying on Mike Bynum to give them some advice. According to John, Mike connects him and Patsy to a law firm that could handle more like criminal matters. So, the law firm is called Haddon, Morgan & Foreman, who like, by the way, if you Google them, like, and you go to news, like, what pops up is like, "Interesting clientele." Um, I was like, "Oh, okay." But that's neither here nor there. The point is that these new lawyers are like the big guns.

• 36:26Ashley Flowers?

  They have big connections, not just to the DA's office, but to Colorado politics as a whole. And so, these lawyers, Patsy and John each have their own, by the way. Like, they're each being looked at as a suspect, so they have to have their own lawyers. Their lawyers are basically like, "Listen, we know how this works. The police are narrowly focused in on you. They are gonna wanna just like, get you in a room and drill you until you break down."

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Which is why you have a lawyer in the room with you, but...

• 36:59Speaker 02

  You need to go into the room. You need to be there.

• 37:01Ashley Flowers?

  You need to be in the room. And listen, like, I...

• 37:05Ashley Flowers?

  The lawyers always planned to be in the room, but they were particular about the conditions of getting in that room. They wouldn't come to terms with police on what that was. Like, when I talked to John, he was like, "Well, they wanted us to come at, like, late at night, and like, where their lawyers are like, "They want you to be tired. They want you to be like, they know we're not sleeping."

• 37:25Speaker 02

  They're setting you up for failure.

• 37:26Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and he's like, "We offered to have them come in our home, and they were like, "No, only at the police station." So, they go back and forth trying to like, come to terms with the conditions of this interview. And that doesn't happen, like, they don't agree to something until April of 1997. That is when police get the first real opportunity to sit down and drill in. And then after that, it would be another year before their next sit-down. That one didn't happen until June of 1998, and then there is just one more in the year 2000. Now, in all of that time, it was a media frenzy. I mean, in an era of tabloids, JonBenet reigned supreme, next in line only to a literal, almost queen, Princess Diana.

• 38:10Ashley Flowers?

  Like, I don't know if you remember, we talked about this being our origin story, but it was all over, all the time. You could not go to the grocery store-

• 38:19Speaker 02

  It was everywhere.

• 38:20Ashley Flowers?

  And not see her face. And it was all over the news, even in a time when like, we weren't paying attention to news.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:26Ashley Flowers?

  And I think it garnered so much attention because it was this like, perfect storm of Christmas time, a beautiful child, a rich family, and then, I mean, put the pageant stuff on top of all of that, like, there were not only a plethora of images of JonBenet, like, being sold to tabloids and newspapers and magazines, because these photographers had so much footage of her, but the pictures they had of her were of this little girl made to look like a young woman. And people had a field day with it. And even though there was plenty of talk, of people asking the questions of whether or not the pageantry put JonBenet in the path of someone dangerous, which, spoiler alert, like, yeah. The conversations always kind of came back to the parents.

• 39:11Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, but they made her do those pageants, which the family says is an inaccurate statement. They're like, no, this is something she liked to do with her mom. Like Patty was a former Miss West Virginia. But all of the tabloids were all about the family. So like, the family was right in saying that they were out to get them.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Yes, but like, which came first, right? Like, it's a very chicken and egg situation. If they talked to the police and the police had cleared them, would there be the tabloid that put them in the center of things? Or are they in the center of things?

• 39:41Ashley Flowers?

  It definitely fed it. Like, again, I think that it started so early, like surprisingly early. But yeah, I think it definitely fed the monster to be like, they're not talking to police. Like, oh, they left Colorado and now they're in Georgia. And things don't get better. Like, the more time that passed, the more contentious things got. Not just between the Ramses and the police, but also between the police and the DA's office. Like, things were being leaked seemingly from every which way. I mean, it was so bad that at one point, her autopsy photos were leaked to the Globe. And those m****s actually planned to print those autopsy photos. And it's like, the police, they had become convinced that the Ramses were involved.

• 40:26Ashley Flowers?

  And so, it actually came out in a deposition at one point, like years down the line, that the police were giving information to reporters to try and put external pressure on the Ramses, hoping that they would crack. Like, they couldn't do the thing they wanted to do inside of the interrogation room, so they were gonna have the media do it.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  So at this point, it sounds like police are relying on other details, almost. Like, not just, we don't like how the family is acting to support all these suspicions that they have.

• 40:54Ashley Flowers?

  Correct. Because like during this time, like, things are getting leaked. Like I said, you have the police department. Things are coming out of the DA's office too. The Ramses had their own team. So like, who is leaking what? Like, it is a messy, messy game. But let me actually give you a little bit of the lay of the land of some of the stuff that we were learning in the time after Jean-Bené's death. I'm gonna go into her autopsy. I think that's a big part of it. But before I do that, I think we just need to talk about some of the physical evidence at the house, some of the observations that were made. Because I think all of that, like, was informing police's opinion on the situation very early on.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:31Ashley Flowers?

  So one of the big ones, um, one of the ones that the Ramses say kind of like defines the case is that police just didn't like how they were acting. Linda Arndt, I'll talk about her probably a lot in this episode. She was the first detective there that day. And she does this like one really infamous interview with Good Morning America in 1999. And the interviewer asks her like, how was John that morning? And she just keeps saying cordial. And she's like, okay, but cordial, what does that mean? It's the only word she would say, cordial, cordial. So she didn't like how he was acting. Now, John tells me, he's like, and told everyone, like, I was trying to keep my wits about me. Like, I don't like, Patsy was deeply upset. Like, she was just in the room with her friend. She's laying down, she's crying.

• 42:15Ashley Flowers?

  He's like, I had to like go into action mode.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Like autopilot almost.

• 42:20Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly. Which, which like, I truly, I understand a little bit. I look at me and my husband and we're very different that way, where I think Eric would be the one like in the chair crying, laying on the floor. And I'm gonna be like, okay, I've gotta get the money. I'm gonna get this. Like, I'm lining everything up to be like, what can I do to fix this situation?

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Because I can't just sit here.

• 42:38Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, John's the CEO of a company. Like, I see him, I see him going in that way. But the other thing that Linda talks about is that they're like in separate rooms the whole time. So she just found that strange. And people have like weighed in over the years, like put their own spin on it. I don't like, I don't know that you could say one way or another if that means anything. Like, I don't think people could say conclusively, but she just felt it was strange that like Patsy's in one room crying, again, John is like over here in action mode.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  But in this giant house.

• 43:09Ashley Flowers?

  In a giant house, but she, I think she expected them to be like-

• 43:12Speaker 02

  A unit.

• 43:13Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, a unit and comforting each other. But that's not what she saw that day, which I think played into the beliefs that first day. The other thing that gets talked about a ton, and that she really, and I think Officer French, and a lot of people there that day honed in on, was the fact that, so John had just been like freshly showered when, he had just gotten out of the shower when Patsy made that 911 call. And so he, he's fresh in the morning. She has like fresh makeup, but she's also wearing the same clothes that she'd worn the night before. So they say, it depends on who you talk to, right? Like, they thought it was really weird that at 5 something in the morning, she's got full hair and makeup, but wearing the same clothes. I don't know what to make of that. I'll tell you, like, completely honestly, I went to dinner with John Ramsey,

• 43:58Ashley Flowers?

  and then interviewed him the next day, and I wore the exact same outfit. Like, and not even intentionally, I didn't realize it until later, but like, throwing on the same thing, to me, is not a big deal. Everyone says, "Oh, well, you know, Patsy was so into her image, and like, there's no way she would have done that." They were about to get on a flight to go to Michigan, so maybe she was just like...

• 44:14Speaker 02

  And it was like the holidays, like, I would wear the same outfit.

• 44:17Ashley Flowers?

  Same red sweater.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:18Ashley Flowers?

  Um, the makeup, she says, and she is from the South. She was born in West Virginia, they spent so much time in Atlanta. She's like, "My mother drilled it in me, you do not leave the house, like, unless you're fully done up." Which I, like, I've met people like that, too, so... But people will read it and be like, "She just never had the chance to go to bed that night." And so, like, it was odd to the people there that first morning. Now, I also told you that first responders, they didn't notice any sign of forced entry in their initial reports. But there was a broken window in the basement.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Which, I don't get how that's just missed.

• 44:57Ashley Flowers?

  Not everyone did miss it. I'm gonna have to come back to that, like, when we get into people's, like, stories and statements. For now, what we need to know is, like, the window was broken, but it wasn't broken recently. So there wasn't glass all over. And John had apparently broken it over the summer. Like, he's like, "No, that's why there's no glass. Like, I broke it when I got locked out of the house." And they thought they had asked their housekeeper's husband or something like that to fix it, but there must have been some kind of confusion or miscommunication, the window didn't get fixed. So I think they view it as like, "Oh, this is a..." You know, I mean, it's the perfect thing to, like, if someone were scoping out their house, to say, like, "Here's a broken window, you can easily get access to the home." But it wasn't something that was done necessarily by an intruder. And the other thing that they point to is, there's also

• 45:40Ashley Flowers?

  this hard-shell suitcase that was supposed to have been right under the window, that they're thinking someone used to maybe get in or get out. And then there's the note. The Ramses to this point, like more than the broken window, they point to the note as proof that Jean Benet was kidnapped. They're basically like, listen, if it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, like it's probably a freaking duck, like we have a ransom note, we probably have a kidnapping. But there were things about this note that even really early on, police were finding odd. The first thing is like, they end up concluding that the note was written on Patsy's notepad with a pen from inside the house.

• 46:23Ashley Flowers?

  Like, I guess John and Patsy each had like their own notebooks for phone messages or whatever. But they determined that it was from Patsy's one that the paper came from. And what's interesting is that the pad of paper and the pen were put back, like they were put away, that it wasn't just like left out, but they were like put back in different places. Now, when they made this connection about it being Patsy's notepad, they also found out that there was a first attempt at writing the note before the writer started over. So there is a page that starts out Mr. and Mrs., and then there's like a line, like it's gonna start Ramsey. But that's it. Like, they call this, um, everyone calls it the practice note, but it just says Mr. and Mrs. R. And then we know the final note is just addressed to Mr. Ramsey.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:08Ashley Flowers?

  Now, it's already a little sus that this thing was written with items inside the house, because I think what everyone starts thinking is like, this person didn't come prepared. Like, usually in kidnapping cases, you see them, if they're gonna leave a note, that's like something they come with.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  If you're gonna hold someone for ransom, you should probably have the ransom note written.

• 47:26Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  Is the thought.

• 47:28Ashley Flowers?

  And, and if not, when they look at like the, um, the sheer amount of words here, two and a half pages, I think I heard someone say it would take someone like 20 minutes to write this thing. They're like, when would they have done that? Now, the Ramses think that this person, this intruder, snuck into their house while they were at a Christmas dinner earlier that night, was like sitting there laying in wait for everyone to like go to bed, and they said like, oh, we think it was written then, which gives the person like hours. Ample amount of time, but it also like doesn't fit with a lot of like what we'll come to know if the goal was to just like get her out of the house. We know that she's found with everything done to her inside the house. So if you, if you pre-wrote that note... It like something about that doesn't add up.

• 48:13Ashley Flowers?

  But then if you wrote the note afterwards.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  That also doesn't make sense because why would you like hope that there's a notebook and a pen readily available for you to in 20 minutes?

• 48:23Ashley Flowers?

  Well, and also like she's dead.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:25Ashley Flowers?

  Like, so what was the point of the ransom note for an intruder? If they were going to leave her deceased in the basement? And beyond like when the note was written, the contents of the note were super weird to me. So for starters, it's like really focused on John. I don't know if like as you're reading it, I know you've probably seen that note like a zillion times. But like, everything is about John and his business.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  And even his role in the business.

• 48:52Ashley Flowers?

  In the business. And it's like, John, make sure you get enough like sleep. John, make sure you do this. John, your daughter like, which, and if it is about John and the business, then like the, you know, the Ramses have said there's like this sexual component to Jean Benet's death that we're going to get into. But like, if it's about that, then that part doesn't line up. And then like I said, there's a lot of, um, in the note, it mentions like, make sure you get some sleep. Make sure you, there's like this weird sense of like.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  If you want her earlier, just get the money earlier and we'll figure this out.

• 49:26Ashley Flowers?

  It's really, yeah, it's really strange the way that it focuses on them. And like, again, I don't know if care is the right word, but it's like, if this isn't, it doesn't make sense. Like nothing about the notes makes sense. And then there are all of these quotes that when people have like gone through and really like broken it down, all of these quotes from movies where kidnappings happened. And so is this like, is this a movie? But I mean, surely someone's not like going through and watching much of movies as they're writing this. If they wrote this in the house in.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  20 minutes.

• 49:58Ashley Flowers?

  20 minutes or a couple of hours, whatever it is. And finally, no one knows what the S B T C is. Like, there are theories out the wazoo about what it could be. I've heard saved by the cross. I've heard rumors that where John Ramsey was stationed in the Navy in the Philippines, that there was like some.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  It's like some military faction acronym.

• 50:21Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, which then they're like, oh, is that foreign faction? But like, that's never been proven. So people can have, and honestly, like again, the stuff people can come up with, like is pretty wild. Lots of wild theories, but in almost 30 years, there is no conclusive proof about what that is connected to. And the other thing we don't know is this amount of money.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  It's so specific.

• 50:47Ashley Flowers?

  A hundred and eighteen thousand dollars.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Not a hundred, not a hundred and fifty.

• 50:52Ashley Flowers?

  And like.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  And split too, in like different bills.

• 50:55Ashley Flowers?

  And John was like, I mean, they were kinda loaded.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  They could have asked for way more.

• 51:00Ashley Flowers?

  You could ask for, and like, I don't know, like, a hundred and eighteen is so weird. Why not half a million, a million dollars, ten million dollars, like.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  Or even lower, at like a round number of like a hundred thousand dollars, like the eighteen.

• 51:15Ashley Flowers?

  It's eighteen, it's so weird.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  Throws me off so badly.

• 51:18Ashley Flowers?

  And it's kind of almost like the S B T C thing where people are like, oh, it's a Bible ver- like, it's a proverb or something, a hundred and eighteen, like, you can, anything with like the number, honestly, eighteen in it, or a hundred and eighteen, people will like drill in on. The thing that I think most people believe, or at least they think is like the most relevant information, is that it comes out, and John, in passing, the early days, are like, there's no significance to that number for us, like, we don't know what it is. Police end up finding out that John Ramsey's bonus, uh, that year for his company was a hundred and eighteen thousand dollars.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  That exact amount.

• 51:56Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and like some change, like, don't get me wrong.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  The lump sum, the big number, the weird.

• 52:02Ashley Flowers?

  A hundred and eighteen thousand dollars. And he says, yeah, that, maybe that's it. The interesting thing is, so I think what gets mixed up a lot, like, for people, is that they're like, oh, that was his Christmas bonus, he got that in December, like, everyone must have known. It actually was issued to him, he says, in like January or February of nineteen ninety-six, so it had been the whole year. But he said that that bonus was like a line item on all of his pay stubs. So if somebody were like going through documents in their house, like, they would have seen that. And I asked him, I was like, was there evidence of somebody who's like gone through documents in your house? And he said, he says, no, but that doesn't mean that that didn't happen. And it's kind of like his best theory of, if it's this number, this might be how someone.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  Would have found that exact.

• 52:47Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  Specific number.

• 52:49Ashley Flowers?

  The police would say, well, no one needed to find it, someone in your home probably.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Knew it, yeah.

• 52:55Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so they have all this weird stuff in the note, and then they start getting handwriting samples from people in the family, trying to find out who wrote this. They got a few actually from Patsy and everyone is ruled out except Patsy. Now to be very clear, like they don't say it was her handwriting. They just say that she can't be excluded or they can't rule her out, which is like a very important distinction.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  Well, and the language itself felt like her if I'm remembering like her interviews, right? Like it's kind of flowery, over the top, like they linked words like hence and

• 53:32Ashley Flowers?

  Attache.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  When I said that, I was like, whoo, that's a word, like that's stuff that she would say though.

• 53:37Ashley Flowers?

  Right, not words like she invented, like lots of people know those words. But there is this like strange juxtaposition in the writing where some of the words are actually like spelled wrong. And then you have words like attache with like the little like mark.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  Accent over it, yeah.

• 53:53Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and they're, so they're like, oh, someone must have like spelled other words wrong intentionally, which kind of fed into this idea of, oh, this ransom note isn't real. Like it was some kind of staging of some sort. But like fun fact, like I also spelled the word attache wrong when I was writing like this story out, so like.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  I would be floored if you hadn't, knowing you.

• 54:13Ashley Flowers?

  I was just gonna say like, so, but I also like, I know words that are outside of my normal vocabulary. And then like I can't, there are some basic words like I can't spell her, like it's just, and that's not me like fooling anyone, it's just.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  I would also say that like you would be able to tell the difference if you and I wrote completely like the same things. Because we would use completely different words.

• 54:33Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, yeah, so to get back to it though, there are a lot of strange things about the note. But there are other random things around the house that if you really wanna go down this rabbit hole, you can spend days. So like, I mean, there's a baseball bat outside, there's a rope in another bedroom of the house. But the important thing is like, none of it is forensically linked to the crime, at least not, or hasn't been to the public. So for the sake of keeping people with me, like we still got a lot, a lot of room here, like a lot of a episode to go. I want to move to the autopsy. So when Jean Benet is found, she had what is described as a garrot-like device tied around

• 55:15Ashley Flowers?

  her neck using white, like rope or cord or some kind of like substance. And then the broken off handle of a paintbrush. Now, garrot, garrot, whatever, like, that is the word that gets used all the time.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  It's the only reason I know what that is.

• 55:31Ashley Flowers?

  It's synonymous with this case. But it actually isn't a garrot that got used. I don't know if it matters, but it feels like with this case, the devil is in the details. So for accuracy's sake, what they're actually, like, at least when I was looking it up, a garrot is like some kind of like string cord, rope chain, whatever, and then like two like handles on the end. What was actually used in Jean Benet's case was a white cord that was tied around her neck. It was fastened in the back and it was fastened to that broken end of the paintbrush. And I think the thinking was that, or if people are still trying to call it a garrot, is that maybe you could like twist the paintbrush and then that would tighten it.

• 56:16Ashley Flowers?

  But investigators said that it was tied more like a noose than it was any kind of garrot. And particularly, they've made note that the knots weren't especially complicated. Now, the brush itself is from inside the house, like a lot of the other stuff we're finding. And we find out that it came from Patsy's art supply. So she had been taking painting classes at the time at the local university. So she had this little like carrier bucket thing full of stuff like that. Now, what wasn't obvious in the Ramsey house that morning that she was found, but what would become clear when her autopsy was done, is that along with having this cord around

• 56:58Ashley Flowers?

  her neck, she also had suffered severe blunt force trauma to her head. Like there, quite literally, when you see the pictures, there's like a chunk of her skull that is like caved in and then this like eight inch crack across her skull as well.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  So I was never really clear, like, which one of these things was her cause of death, though.

• 57:20Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so the autopsy report says it was just a combination.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Do they know which one was first?

• 57:26Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know. So I think like first you need to know that the rope around her neck, like if you see the pictures that got released, it's like embedded in there. Like, I mean, it looks like somebody truly tied it so tight, but it actually wasn't tied really tight. So like, just like the bindings I had mentioned that were loose on her wrist, the cord, I think initially around her neck probably was as well because in the autopsy report, there is a note that even though she's got the external wounds, there is no internal damage to her neck, which you would see if there was like severe strangulation, if that makes sense. So it's possible that maybe her

• 58:09Ashley Flowers?

  body like got swollen after death, or like as she was dying, like and it made it look so much tighter.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  But she was definitely alive when it happened.

• 58:20Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. So yeah, so she definitely did get choked in some way because we have external signs of her being choked. Like, so we've got abrasions, we've got petechial hemorrhage on her neck and her eyes and her face.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Which all that makes sense, but I still don't, I'm not seeing what came first.

• 58:38Ashley Flowers?

  Same. Like, really, the only two options are either she was being lightly choked. But again, the choking was not the thing that was going to kill her because we don't see those internal injuries. She was being lightly choked and she either still has the cord around her neck, or it's taken off and then she's hit and then it's put back on, or it's, like I said, it's just left on, or she's hit in the head and then it is put on, and if she's swelling, that caused the choking. Those really are only two options. Either way, the hit in the head was so severe that even the light choking, whether it was someone doing it or just the cord being on, it contributed to her death in conjunction with the head wound. So there seems

• 59:21Ashley Flowers?

  to be a consensus from a number of people that the asphyxiation happened like 45 minutes after the hit, and it really is like authorities who believe this. On the Ramsey camp, they had this investigator, Lou Schmidt, who really reaches a different conclusion. He thinks she was hit in the head after she was choked and that the choking was done as part of a sexual act. Now, I mentioned this briefly, but when John was bringing Jean-Benet upstairs, like when he first found her in the basement, there was some of that like white cord, same stuff that's around her neck is like around her wrists, or like her hand, just one of them. And he says that they like, or they were like bound together, but like I think it's only left on one,

• 1:00:04Ashley Flowers?

  and it's pretty loose, like the knots themselves were loose. Like, a lot of people who've looked at this, like it wouldn't have actually like-

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  Kept her hands together.

• 1:00:13Ashley Flowers?

  Right, so again, the people who look at this like a staging, they'll say, "This is more proof that it wasn't to actually restrain her, this was something done after the fact." But, could the knots have gotten loose another way? Like, we look at a scene that we know is so severely contaminated, she wasn't left in the place that she was found. I don't know. Now, she also had a piece of tape over her mouth, and when John found her, he'd actually ripped that off, and he leaves it in the basement, he brings her upstairs, and it's left in the basement along with the white blanket that was covering her. And then, one of the things that I never knew in this case, was that along with the white blanket, there was a Barbie nightgown? And, I don't know what it means,

• 1:00:56Ashley Flowers?

  but all accounts, it's not what she was wearing that evening. It doesn't seem like it was soil, nobody knows if it's like clean, dirty, like was it-

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  Did they go up to her room to get, like where was it in all of this?

• 1:01:08Ashley Flowers?

  Was it just like shuffled in maybe with the blanket that they brought down? Like, nobody knows, it's just kind of this weird piece that I can't quite make sense of, but there's a Barbie nightgown down there too. So the nightgown, I already said, wasn't what she was wearing. What she was wearing was a white shirt with a silver star, and she had worn that shirt to a Christmas dinner that they went to the night before. That's where they were before they all came home and went to bed. She was also wearing white, long john pants, and under those, she was wearing a pair of underwear, and this is like such a weird part of the case. The underwear that she was wearing was a size 12, which for like my non-kid people, usually like the general rule is like you can usually go size by age, like obviously every kid's different.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  But pretty close, like May is 6, she wears an 8.

• 1:01:51Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and Jean-Benet was like a pretty average, like height, weight for her age. So like, a six-year-old to be in 12 underwear, they were, the, they even said like when they, when they were like taking off her clothes and doing her autopsy, like they were huge on her.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:05Ashley Flowers?

  And the other interesting thing is that her long johns and her underwear were both stained with urine, mostly on the front of the garments, which indicates to me that she was probably laying face down when her bladder was emptied, because I think it's especially important when you think about the fact that that cord was tied around her neck was tied in the back.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  Did they find urine anywhere else in the house? Like if she was laying down, and I've seen the pictures of the underwear and the pants, I mean, they're saturated. If she's laying down, empties her bladder that much to just like drench her clothes.

• 1:02:44Ashley Flowers?

  It should be somewhere.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  There should be a little puddle somewhere.

• 1:02:48Ashley Flowers?

  Theoretically, yes, but I can't say for sure based on the stuff that we have. I told you, I mean, a lot of the stuff that we have is because stuff got leaked, not because it doesn't, like, there isn't other stuff that exists. I can tell you that the sheets that were on her bed were not stained. There is some conjecture that maybe there was a possible urine stain on the carpet outside of the wine cellar room that she's actually found in, but I can't source that to actual police documents. I don't know if that's true. And of course, Boulder Police Department, the prosecutor's office, like, they wouldn't talk to us for this episode, so all in all, I don't actually know, but it feels like we should be able to determine where in the house that happened.

• 1:03:31Ashley Flowers?

  And the where that happened feels really important. Like, if we can't find where, that means that someone cleaned it up, right? Which adds like this whole other element to this already really confusing case. Now, the other things that get discovered that are of interest are the following in her autopsy. So, there was vaginal trauma, but not from penetration. Like, there, it was more like an irritant or like the skin cells. And what they found is, I believe, there were traces of the actual, the broken paintbrush. What they determined is that that paintbrush had been inserted. Interestingly, though, there's like that that they know happened, like...

• 1:04:15Ashley Flowers?

  At the time of her death, but the autopsy also notes some wounds or some trauma that is more chronic. And chronic doesn't mean it's happening for a very, very, very long time, over and over. Chronic means before like that. And so there's at least some evidence that seven to 10 days before her death, something else happened. But you can't say what. And anyone who tries to say what, we do not know, but there is some vaginal trauma to this young girl that happened seven to 10 days before her death.

• 1:04:49Speaker 02

  So they're not sure if she was abused?

• 1:04:53Ashley Flowers?

  No one can say that.

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  Like definitively?

• 1:04:55Ashley Flowers?

  Definitively. There have been a number of experts who came in, like the, um, when Boulder Police had this case, they brought in a number, I think it was like five or six experts that said that based on what they saw from the autopsy report, like they would categorize that as abuse. What we also find out in all of this time, it's not necessarily the autopsy, but we find out that Jean Benet had been having issues with soiling herself. So she was, I mean, Patsy still had like pull-ups in the house. She was still wetting the bed, even soiling the bed. And Patsy would say like, listen, like that's, this happens. Kids have accidents. She said that her stepdaughter, one of John's from his previous marriage,

• 1:05:38Ashley Flowers?

  did the same thing till she was like eight. Apparently Burke had the same things. So Patsy was like, there's just kids. But people who do want to say that she was abused will point to this as like more evidence of that. But no, like there is no definitive proof that she was being sexually abused in the time leading up to it. Like there's, but there clearly something happened, like, like in the seven to 10 days and this. But we don't know what that is. Like it is so much of this case, we will never know what was happening in that house on that night or the days before, or John Benet was doing so many things outside of the home too. I also want to make it clear that if there was abuse, which I think there's evidence of, and it's something that I talked to John about,

• 1:06:20Ashley Flowers?

  actually in our interview, I was like, the proof is like, it feels like the proof is there, but that doesn't mean it has to be a family. That's like, she came into contact with so many people. So, I know I just like went on and on and on, but the short answer is no, there's no like proof she was abused, but a lot of experts who believe she had been.

• 1:06:39Ashley Flowers?

  To go back to the evidence, so there are some fibers that are found as well. They're found on the sticky side of the tape that was on her mouth. Some that are found like in the ligature like knots that we've got, you know, I don't know if it was her, her hands or her neck, but there's some found in the ligature. And some that were on the white blanket as well. And they are consistent, the police say, with a jacket that Patsy was wearing the night of the 25th. Additionally, there is one mention of some black fibers that were found in her underwear that they say were consistent with a wool sweater of John's. But this is a super important caveat.

• 1:07:23Ashley Flowers?

  A, this is only thrown out in Patsy's 2000 interview. And we know, like, the person interviewing her says this. We know that you can straight up lie in those.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:07:34Ashley Flowers?

  So I don't know if this actually is true because I, like, it's not anywhere else as fact. I don't know if like the fibers were actually in the underwear. I don't know if, if they were, if they actually got tied to John. I have no idea. And the family lawyer actually makes note later on, a different one. He says that like, just saying those things skews the picture. Because he's like, A, when you talk about the coat fibers, the shirt fibers, he's like, how many other things did you try and test to match it, first of all? And you're not even talking about all of the other fibers that were found that aren't tied to anything.

• 1:08:09Speaker 02

  Right, there weren't only these like two or three fibers. There could be a lot in there. And also, people do laundry.

• 1:08:15Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and he's like, so to, to just say those couple of things really skews the record, as he says. So, you've got a lot of the physical evidence, but like, the thing I think everyone wants to talk about when we talk about this case, there is foreign DNA, exactly. So, we've got foreign DNA under her nails, her right and her left, in her underwear, and on the cord around her neck. We know JonBenet was the main contributor in all of it. In 1997, there was an indication of an unknown contributor, but- The testing was super basic back then.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  In 97.

• 1:08:51Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, it was so basic that what I can tell from like what I've seen is that we're dealing with like N allele that is off out of like multiple markers. So they were like far from a real profile that we could do anything with back then. But one of the things that really frustrated the family and made them feel like this was targeted against them is that no one was sharing that they were ruled out from that in those early days, which seems pretty significant. Like, everyone's looking for an excuse of like, it almost feels like they were trying to like write it off, like, how can it still be them and not be this? And instead of just being like, oh, like, was there someone else in the house? Like, all, put your theory aside, like, the question is, was there someone else in the house?

• 1:09:35Ashley Flowers?

  And I think that's the question everyone should be asking. And then the final thing that we have, as far as evidence, or at least that I'm gonna get into, is the pineapple.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  I was waiting for you to get to the pineapple.

• 1:09:47Ashley Flowers?

  So, the pineapple, there are remnants of pineapple found in her stomach. If you know, you know. If you don't, that's why you have me. But to understand why the pineapple becomes important, like, or why it's a big deal, we have to go backward a little bit. So now that you have the physical evidence, like, the stuff that we're working with, most of which was getting, again, I just want to remind you, getting leaked like little bit by little bit to the public over weeks and months, all during the time when the Ramses are lawyered up. I want to go into the actual statements that we get. So, the stuff that police say that they were told on December 26th, the statements given to authorities by John and Patsy in the months after that fateful day, and even in the years

• 1:10:32Ashley Flowers?

  that follow. So, there are two reports that have been leaked from first responders that I've found. One is from Officer French, he's the first guy that shows up at the house that morning, and the other is from Detective Linda Arndt. Let's start with French, since he was the first one who was there that day. And so, actually, I have, if you wouldn't mind just like reading, I think it's...

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  The report says...

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  I spoke with Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey while Burke continued to sleep. Ms. Ramsey told me that she had gone into Jean Benet's room at about 5:45 hours to wake her in preparation for a short family trip the family was to take later that day. She found Jean Benet's room empty and then discovered the note as she walked down the stairs. She immediately called police.

• 1:11:18Ashley Flowers?

  Okay, so then just go to the... So there's like...

• 1:11:20Speaker 02

  There's not a section.

• 1:11:21Ashley Flowers?

  I'm making it tight for everyone.

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  They told me they had spent Christmas night with the redacted and that they arrived home at 2,200 hours. Ms. Ramsey said that Jean Benet's and Burke's bedrooms are separate and are located on the second floor of the three-story house, with the master bedroom on the top floor. Jean Benet's bedroom has an access door to the second-floor porch, which was locked and undamaged.

• 1:11:45Ashley Flowers?

  Okay, so, if you wouldn't mind, now I've got Linda Arntz.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  Okay, Linda says, "Officer French told me that when he arrived, he met with Patsy Ramsey, Jean Benet's mother. Patsy was very upset and distraught, and it was difficult for Officer French to obtain information from her. Officer French also spoke with John Ramsey, Jean Benet's father. Officer French learned that the Ramsey family had been at a friend's house on the late afternoon and evening of December 25th. Jean Benet and her brother Burke went to bed shortly after the family returned home. John Ramsey had read to Jean Benet after she'd gone to bed and before she went to sleep. Jean Benet had last been seen wearing a red turtleneck and white long underwear. Patsy woke up this morning and discovered the suspected ransom note at the bottom of the spiral staircase. Patsy originally thought that the note may have been left by the housekeeper.

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  Officer French has been told that the Ramsey family had been planning to leave early this morning for Michigan. The Ramsey family has a home in Upper Michigan. After Patsy discovered the note, she went to Jean Benet's bedroom. Patsy discovered Jean Benet was missing."

• 1:12:50Ashley Flowers?

  Okay, so then go to the next part where she talks about actually being what was Patsy.

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  I did ask Patsy a few questions and was able to receive some information. The following is information I received from Patsy. Patsy has gotten up on the morning of December 26th, 1996, and had gone downstairs from her bedroom to the kitchen. Patsy used the back, i.e. west stairway. The back stairway consists of a spiral staircase leading from just outside JonBenet's bedroom to the northwest corner of the first floor of the house. At the bottom of this spiral staircase, Patsy discovered a three-page handwritten note. The note had been written on legal pad-sized paper. Patsy said she originally thought the note might have been left by her housekeeper. After Patsy looked at the note and read it, she ran to JonBenet's bedroom. JonBenet was missing.

• 1:13:34Ashley Flowers?

  Okay, so that keeps going after that, just basically like repeating a lot of the stuff that we already know, like they had an alarm, but they didn't set the alarm, like kind of talks about their housekeeper a little bit, who she had a key early on when JonBenet was still just like a missing person. Police were asking about anyone who like had access to the house. And then if you want to keep going, so Linda talks to John.

• 1:13:54Speaker 02

  Okay. John Ramsey told me that he and his family had been at a dinner party held at the redacted home.

• 1:14:00Ashley Flowers?

  Why?

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  On the afternoon and evening of December 25th, 1996. John, Patsy, Burke, and JonBenet had returned home at approximately 2,200 hours. John told me that Patsy and Burke immediately went to bed. John had read a book to JonBenet, tucked her into bed, then John went to bed. John said he went to bed at approximately 22, 30 hours.

• 1:14:24Ashley Flowers?

  For anyone who's mind doesn't work like mine, 10 and 10:30.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:29Ashley Flowers?

  I don't work in military time, but like I, every time I'd be like backwards from 24. Anyway, so it keeps going. I mean, again, for anyone who's like as deeply obsessed as I am, like I'll have all of this info in the show notes, so you can go like read the full thing for yourself. But for now, you have what you need to know. So that's what police have from the day of about like them getting home, going to bed, finding the note. There's a bunch more that they talk about. Like, I don't want to give you the impression that the Ramses only said like three words to them. Like, they answered all the questions that they had day of. But police were expressly told to treat them like victims in the early days, not like suspects. Now, you know, after this, Mike Bynum steps in, tells John, like, "Listen, I want to help you out.

• 1:15:13Ashley Flowers?

  I want to put someone like in place because like you really need representation in a criminal matter like this." And, you know, he's like, "Jesus," Mike Bynum, "Jesus, take the wheel." Like, go ahead. Now, we know that they don't sit down for a formal interview. They leave for Atlanta, and then they did that disaster of an interview on CNN, which, if John's insider source was wrong about police, like, initially looking at them, like, they definitely were now, right? Because some of the stuff in that interview conflicted with the little information that police already knew.

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  And again, why even talk to CNN in the first place?

• 1:15:54Ashley Flowers?

  To protect Boulder, right? #ProtectBoulder. And which is like, when I'm sat down with John, as soon as he told me that, I was like, "But that's weird, right?" And he's like, "Yeah, no, it's definitely weird." But to protect Boulder, I don't know. So anyways, so you heard some of the clips. Like, they don't go into a ton of detail, but they do say a couple of things that stick out, and I thought that maybe we could just, like, read it a little bit. Mrs. Ramsey, you found the note. Was it a handwritten note, three pages?

• 1:16:21Speaker 07

  I didn't. I couldn't read the whole thing. I had just gotten up. We were on our, it was the day after Christmas, and we were going to go visiting, and it was quite early in the morning. And I got dressed and was on my way to the kitchen to make some coffee. And we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas, and I always come down that staircase. And I'm usually the first one down. And the note was lying across the three pages, across the run of one of the stair treads. And it was kind of dimly lit. It was just very early in the morning. And I started to read it, and it was addressed to John. It said, "Mr. Ramsey." And it said, "We have your daughter." And I, you know, it just wasn't registering. And I, I may have gotten through another sentence. I can't, "We have your daughter." And I don't know if I got any further than that.

• 1:17:06Speaker 07

  And I immediately ran back upstairs and pushed open her door, and she was not in her bed, and I screamed for John.

• 1:17:12Ashley Flowers?

  John, you subsequently read the note. Was there anything in there that struck you in any sense? And then John says, "Well, no, I mean, I read it very fast. I was out of my mind and it said, 'Don't call the police.'" You know, that type of thing. And I told Patsy, "Call the police immediately." And I think I ran through the house a bit.

• 1:17:28Speaker 07

  We went to check our son.

• 1:17:30Ashley Flowers?

  Checked our son's room. Sometimes she sleeps in there and we just were...

• 1:17:34Speaker 07

  We were just frantic.

• 1:17:36Ashley Flowers?

  And then there's another section that I have here that I just want to read. I'll read again for John and you read for Patsy.

• 1:17:41Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:17:42Ashley Flowers?

  "To those of you who may want to ask, let me address it very directly. I did not kill my daughter, Jeanne Benet. There have also been innuendos that she has been or was sexually molested. I can tell you that those were the most hurtful innuendos to us as a family. They are totally false. Jeanne Benet and I had a very close relationship. I will miss her dearly for the rest of my life."

• 1:18:06Speaker 07

  "I'm appalled that anyone would think that John or I would be involved in such a hideous, heinous crime. But let me assure that I did not kill Jeanne Benet. I did not have anything to do with this. I love that child with my whole of my heart and soul. We feel like there are at least two people on the face of this earth that know who did this. And that is the killer and someone that that person may have confided in."

• 1:18:31Ashley Flowers?

  The big thing that people took away from this were a couple of things. One, Patsy says that she only read the first line of the letter, which is hard to understand because in the 911 call, she tells the operator how it is signed.

• 1:18:46Speaker 02

  At the very end of the letter.

• 1:18:47Ashley Flowers?

  S-B-T-C, Victory. And in one of the first reports, she says that she was nervous. Like, remember when she was like standing at the window? She was nervous about like the car pulling up and being marked because the letter had said not to call the police. But it doesn't quite make sense how she would have known that if she only read the first, like, line or two.

• 1:19:06Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. She also talks about screaming for John, and that's new. Didn't she say she called the police immediately? Or even, in one version, didn't she say she saw Jeanne Benet was not in her bed before she even, like, saw the letter?

• 1:19:20Ashley Flowers?

  Right, so that's what's in the report. But I will say that when Detective Arndt was kind of, if you remember, like that you read it in one of them, she's kind of rehashing what French told her. It looks like in that version, she saw the note first. So some of the first reports might, like, something might be getting lost in translation. And we talked about, like, you know, there's time in between. There's, the Ramses basically say, like, you know, there's so much in the initial reports that are just like, straight up wrong, like, everyone's misremembering, or saw things differently, or heard things differently, or like, misinterpreted stuff. So the other thing that is interesting about what we learned from that little bit from CNN is that there is no excuse for the pineapple that we know about.

• 1:20:04Ashley Flowers?

  Everything they say is they like, get home, go to bed. There is no, like, snack later. And granted, this is just like a tidbit that we're getting.

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  But Patsy goes to bed, Bert goes to bed, John takes JonBenet up, reads to her, puts her to bed, all within like, a half an hour.

• 1:20:19Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and we got, like, in some of that from the early reports, but it's, we don't understand when that would have happened because they don't say, like, oh, we got home and then this happened. And so like, there, it's just kind of left as a little bit of a mystery. And so, all of that to say, that after they do the CNN thing, police have their antenna up, and they really want to sit down with them once they come back. There's something weird that happens before they go back to Boulder, because they will go back to Boulder, like, even though they never set foot in that house again, they have to go back. So let me back up for a second. Remember how I told you that John's company gave them a plane to use to go back to Atlanta?

• 1:20:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, the company plane.

• 1:21:00Ashley Flowers?

  Okay, yeah, so, I don't know who exactly was on it, I don't have the manifest, but in a 1998 interview with authorities, Patsy says that there is some kind of, quote-unquote, like, scuttlebutt confusion or something around Fleet White. So apparently, he was planning to get on the plane back, but he didn't. And what she said, I think I have, like, heard that, I think it's important to read what she said. So, Patsy says, quote, "I picked up on something that Fleet was not acting right, and they were going to keep him from going on the private plane back to Atlanta." Well, so I don't know what happened. Something happened.

• 1:21:41Speaker 02

  He's not on the plane with the family.

• 1:21:43Ashley Flowers?

  To Atlanta, but I know he makes his way out to Atlanta somehow. And then it sounds like he loses his ever-loving mind. Something happens, but I like, I don't know what. Okay, so Fleet and his wife are staying with John's brother Jeff, it seems like. And according to Patsy, Fleet kind of flips out on Jeff. Like he, at one point, like grabs his caller, gets upset about something. And then Jeff calls over to where John and Patsy are staying. And they're like, he's like, "Fleet's coming. Do you have a gun?" And Patsy says that her and Burke and her mom, like, go to the basement. They're like trying to stay quiet. And John and Patsy's dad go handle this thing upstairs.

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  Handle what, though? I don't, I'm not following what's happening.

• 1:22:32Ashley Flowers?

  Me freaking either. So, like, everyone apparently comes out of this fine. I mean, like, physically, I know whatever altercation they had, like, is, is over with. But I don't know what happened. Whatever it was about begins to fracture the friendship between the Whites and the Ramses.

• 1:22:51Speaker 02

  And has no one asked John about this?

• 1:22:53Ashley Flowers?

  Of course they have. I asked John about this.

• 1:22:55Speaker 02

  Did you?

• 1:22:56Ashley Flowers?

  I asked him, and I'm telling you, this is what I'm saying to people. Go watch. Like, in other places, I've heard John say that Fleet was upset that they did the CNN thing. But in an interview John eventually does in 1998 with Lou Smith, he says that Fleet was the one who pushed him to do the CNN thing? Like, the one who insisted on it?

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  He's the one who told him to go and, like, protect Boulder?

• 1:23:18Ashley Flowers?

  Well, he, no, he didn't say that in 1998. Like, that was something he said to me. But what he says is that Fleet told them to do it because of what the media was saying about them, that they needed to defend themselves. The protect Boulder thing was, again, new to me. I don't know what it means. But defend themselves, protect Boulder. Either way, John kinda chalks up whatever this meltdown is to trauma. Like Fleet obviously knew the family super well. They were at his house for Christmas dinner, for goodness sakes. He and his wife were called over by Patsy that morning when they knew John, but he was missing. It was traumatic for everyone. And John says that Fleet just isn't cool under pressure. And Fleet was one of the people who was like down there when he found her.

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  But that still doesn't answer my question. Like, what was he saying when he was flipping out?

• 1:24:05Ashley Flowers?

  Well, okay, so police do ask her, right? Like, because she was there. But when she's asked by police about this, her only explanation, because she says she doesn't know, but she just says, "I wasn't having that conversation."

• 1:24:16Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:24:17Ashley Flowers?

  I know, and like this, this is a little hard for me to understand because I'm like, but you're part of thi- this like family, like something is happening.

• 1:24:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:26Ashley Flowers?

  And I, it's hard for me to understand, like you, you're running to the basement and staying quiet, and that like you asked no follow-up questions, like after you came out of the basement?

• 1:24:33Speaker 02

  Just like, it's fine, move on?

• 1:24:35Ashley Flowers?

  And like, on one hand, I'm like, I don't buy it for a second because that, that's not how I would respond. On the other, I have seen like more and more of, I don't know the family dynamic, like truly know the family dynamic. I think there's like a world that you and I grew up in where we saw a lot of like,

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:24:56Ashley Flowers?

  I'm like, what are all the right words?

• 1:24:57Speaker 02

  Submissive isn't necessarily the right, like, exact word, but like, the dad husbands.

• 1:25:03Ashley Flowers?

  They're handling it.

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're handling it and we don't need to worry about it.

• 1:25:06Ashley Flowers?

  Yes.

• 1:25:06Speaker 02

  And so we don't ask any questions.

• 1:25:08Ashley Flowers?

  So seemingly.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  That could be.

• 1:25:10Ashley Flowers?

  That could be what happened here. Because she's like, that is not a conversation I had.

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  And what does John say about this, though? Like, the guy who was actually in the conversation?

• 1:25:20Ashley Flowers?

  Who had the conversation?

• 1:25:21Speaker 02

  The conversation with you.

• 1:25:23Ashley Flowers?

  So Lu Smith doesn't really ask him about the altercation, or at least not what, what became part of like the transcript. I tried to ask him, but John says he doesn't remember. He doesn't remember the exchange, what words were said. He also doesn't remember what Fleet flipped out about at the next altercation they have when they get back to Boulder.

• 1:25:47Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, what is happening and how did I not know any of this?

• 1:25:52Ashley Flowers?

  I know. So like, the media that we got served really has had its own take, right? Everyone just kind of talks about the things that fit their theory. The police were doing it, the DA was doing it, the Ramses do it. And I get it, like, I mean, truly, how far in are we right now? Like, you literally can't talk about everything in this case unless you had a 400-part mini-series. Even this episode, I don't feel like it's really gonna cover it.

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  Uh, paging Delia, the crime junkies need to.

• 1:26:22Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, the next season of Counter-Clock is drumming it. Seriously, though, I told you, I'm trying to go a layer deeper. I'm trying to show everyone that like, to get to the bottom of who, it is so much more complicated than you think it is. There's like, so much more than I think people think that they know. And truly, like, this is not the end of the story, but here is the main takeaway from today. I don't think anyone should have a strong opinion anyway until you consume all of it. And that is really hard to do. So like, again, as we're going through this, keep an open mind. Even our episode won't be the end-all, be-all, but I'll get back to the facts. So, they come back to Boulder. This is after the funeral.

• 1:27:06Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know who travels with who. Priscilla and Fleet might even leave early. There's like, this talk about how they didn't like how they were treated by everyone in Atlanta, like, they were expecting them to act like things were fine, or everything was just too formal, like, they were grieving. I don't know. But eventually, everyone goes back to Boulder. Oh, um, sorry, just wait, one more thing. So, um, it's a weird Fleet thing. So before we go back to Boulder, so when Patsy was telling authorities about this Fleet altercation, she said something that set off, like, truly, like, fire alarms in my head.

• 1:27:41Speaker 02

  If you haven't checked out live shopping yet, you are seriously missing out. Whatnot is the top destination for live shopping, and it is completely transforming how we shop online. Unlike traditional online stores, where you're just scrolling through static photos, Whatnot brings real-time excitement. You get to hang out with engaging sellers who love what they love, interact in lively chats, and jump on incredible deals you can't find anywhere else. And you guys, the sheer amount and range of items is mind-boggling. Everything from fashion, beauty, and designer handbags to vintage clothing and rare collectibles. Whatnot has become my go-to to shop the items I want in an honestly really exciting way. I was able to snag a really cute vintage handbag at a kind of unbelievable price, and getting to see it in real time was really helpful and so much fun.

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  Download Whatnot today and get $20 off your first live purchase. Search "Whatnot", that's W-H-A-T-N-O-T, in the App Store. Sign up and take a shopping trip. Terms apply.

• 1:28:38Ashley Flowers?

  Remember being a kid around the holidays, and any time you would ask for something, mom would always say, "Wait until the holidays." Well, with Mint Mobile's holiday deal, there's no waiting. Right now, this second, all of their plans are $15 a month. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right with premium wireless for $15 a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even bring your current phone and your number. Choose from three, six, or 12-month plans and say goodbye to a monthly bill. It's so easy. Sign up online and get premium wireless service for $15 a month. So what are you waiting for? To get your new wireless plan for $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com/crimejunkie.

• 1:29:23Ashley Flowers?

  That's mintmobile.com/crimejunkie. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com/crimejunkie. Limited-time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabyte may slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 1:29:52Ashley Flowers?

  Okay, so this is after Flea is kept from getting on the plane, but before he flips out. And Patsy's like hiding in the basement. So Patsy says that when they're in Atlanta, she sort of remembers Priscilla White, who's Flea's wife, standing in her mom's living room saying something like, "Well, I know what's going on. If you would give me a few minutes of your time, I could let you in on some things." And Patsy turns to her and she says, "Priscilla, how can you know so much? I'm the mother of this child and I know nothing." So the person asking her or interviewing her when she's like talking about this, asked her what she was talking about. And Patsy's like, "I don't have a clue."

• 1:30:35Ashley Flowers?

  Like, you know, I really wish I would have taken her up on the offer to like see what she knew, but...

• 1:30:41Speaker 02

  But what? Like, we still have time here. What did Priscilla know?

• 1:30:47Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know, man.

• 1:30:47Speaker 02

  We don't know.

• 1:30:48Ashley Flowers?

  Our team tried to reach out to the Whites, like, nothing back. Maybe they would say that, like, they never even said that. Maybe they would say that whatever they said was taken out of context. Maybe they would say what John says, and nobody remembers.

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  Surely, police talk to them at some point, though, right?

• 1:31:05Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, oh, yeah. And from everything that's been reported, the Whites were super cooperative. They wanted to help in any way that they could.

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  You could help by telling us what you were saying to them when you were freaking out. That seems like a really good place to start.

• 1:31:18Ashley Flowers?

  I know, and I like, it had to have gotten asked. And maybe there is a very vanilla answer, but Boulder PD has been super tight lipped on the Whites, or honestly, pretty much any other people that they interviewed who weren't the Ramses. All the stuff that gets leaked are about the Ramses. Everything has a slant. Like, I mean, seriously, no matter what side you take, things are slanted. And I feel like I'm dealing, like, I have a thousand puzzle pieces that I'm trying to put together, and I feel like I'm still missing like 30,000. Like, no matter how much this case, like, we do not have all the information. But I do think that part of the reason that Patsy never went back and like got the answers from Priscilla that we would want, or like I might go and get, is because of this rift that forms between the families.

• 1:32:03Ashley Flowers?

  Because according to Patsy, two more things happen, and after that, I don't think they ever speak again. So Priscilla says that thing, Fleet has his meltdown, and they're all back in Boulder. And it's strange because Patsy says this next thing. She's like, "Oh, I wasn't really privy to it." It's kind of like the same thing. "I wasn't really privy to this." But she is there when it happens. It's not like she's even removed like she was in the basement before. So her and John are meeting with their priest, Father Rawl. And they're at the church, and the three of them, she says, are like praying. And Fleet White bursts into the office, eyes wide. He gets on his knees, apparently, has this business card. And he's like, literally like hanging over John. And he says, "You know what this is, John.

• 1:32:48Ashley Flowers?

  You know what this means, John. You know what I'm going to have to do with this, John. I'm going to have to handle this my way, John." And Patsy says he like keeps going on and on. And like, she's asking Fleet like what it is that's in his hand. And he hands her this business card. And it's for someone, like a journalist or something. And there's a note on the back. She said, she can't recall word for word, but she says it's something to the effect of, quote, this is her quote in the interview. "Mr. White, there's been some question as to whether it was you or John Ramsey who removed the tape from John Buddy's mouth, you know, and about the sequence of the basement discovery, because we had been talking about this."

• 1:33:28Speaker 02

  Wait, they'd been talking about the basement discovery?

• 1:33:31Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know.

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  And like, who had?

• 1:33:34Ashley Flowers?

  Or when? Exactly. I don't know. They don't ask her? Like, she just kind of keeps going and they don't circle back to this? And she says that Fleet basically says they're after him and his family now, and that he's gonna have to handle this his way, like I said. So she says he's like manic at this point. And then the story just kind of fizzles. Like, it's not clear how it de-escalates. I know Father Rawl like jumps in at some point, but I don't know how it ends. I don't know what was said. I don't know what journalist it was, like who gave the card, who's asking these questions, or like if that even was the question.

• 1:34:09Speaker 02

  Well, calling all Boulder journalists who gave a card to Fleet White, the crime junkies kind of want to know some things.

• 1:34:16Ashley Flowers?

  I have a laundry list of people that I want to talk to. Like any of them are welcome to hit me up anytime after this episode. So that was the one thing. Actually, there are two things. So Patsy says that Fleet tries to get FaceTime with them one more time. So by this point, when the Ramses go back to Boulder, they kind of like hop around, but they end up like settling in and moving in with some of their friends, the Steins. Who weirdly, like John called acquaintances before all of this, but I don't know, man, like trauma bonding is real. So like they become obviously much closer. But Patsy says that Fleet goes to Glenn Stein's office at Colorado University and demands to see the Ramses.

• 1:34:56Ashley Flowers?

  Again, I don't know what's said. I don't know how it fizzles, de-escalates, whatever, but like that's that. And I want to be clear, no one in the White family was ever considered suspects by any department. By all accounts, they've cooperated fully with the investigation and they have even been staunch critics of how the case was handled and have, they've actually fought legal battles, trying to get documents like released that they feel would further the case or would bring more light to the case. But for now, in our story and with the Ramses, the Whites are out. The Steins are in. They're the new besties. And it's interesting because it turns out what we learn when John and Patsy finally do sit down with police in April 1997,

• 1:35:41Ashley Flowers?

  and then again in June of 98 and then more 2000, is that the Steins, they may have been some of the last people to actually see JonBenet before she died. Okay, so we're like eight hours into this episode.

• 1:35:57Ashley Flowers?

  Do you want to finally get into more details about like the days leading up to 26th?

• 1:36:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:36:01Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 1:36:01Speaker 02

  Please.

• 1:36:02Ashley Flowers?

  You need backstory.

• 1:36:03Speaker 02

  No, I know. I'm loving all of this. It's so much.

• 1:36:07Ashley Flowers?

  So I'm gonna start with the 23rd. On December 23rd, the Ramses hosted a Christmas party with like all of their friends, even like family members of these friends who were like in town visiting. So we have the Whites, we have the Fernies, the Steins, the Barnhills, like all these kids. It's just big to do. They hire a Santa to make an appearance. The kids like are decorating gingerbread houses. Everything was merry and bright. At least we assume. But there is one weird thing that happens that night on the 23rd. From the same house where 911 will be called in less than 72 hours, someone dials 911.

• 1:36:49Speaker 02

  On the 23rd.

• 1:36:50Ashley Flowers?

  On the 23rd. According to an LA Times article, the call was placed from the Ramses at 6:48 PM, but it was like a hang-up call. Dispatchers tried to call back a few minutes later, nobody answered, so then police sent an officer to the house. What happened? Great question. I don't know, the officer who was dispatched never filed a report. Now, I have heard that it was Fleet White who made that call, and there's like a number of like explanations around, like going around like, oh, he was trying to like dial, his mom is said to have been in the hospital at the time, he was trying to like call and get some medication for her and misdialed or something like that. I asked John specifically about it, and he's, again, like, does not remember, he says.

• 1:37:34Ashley Flowers?

  So file that whole thing under like WTF, it's just like, it's weird. And it's one of those, we talk about this all the time, like, is it a coincidence that someone in that house calls 911 and then this happens? Or like, are there no coincidences?

• 1:37:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:37:46Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know. So, the 24th, nothing super notable happens, they go to church, they go out to dinner, they eat at this place called Pasta Jays, John knows the owner, and then they go around and look at Christmas lights. Patsy thinks that maybe they might have gone to the Whites at some point, like they were by there, they might have like stopped by for a little bit, but no big deal, they all go home, go to bed. And then everyone wakes up the 25th on Christmas Day, like any kids on Christmas Day, they wake up first, they like go and get the parents, we want to open presents. John Benet got a bike and this like life-size twin doll thing, and Burke got a Nintendo 64, hello 1996.

• 1:38:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:38:24Ashley Flowers?

  And they eat this big breakfast as a family that they make, and then in the middle of the day, everyone kind of does their own thing. So, they were planning to leave early in the next morning, this would have been like the 26th, right? Yeah, so they're planning to leave the 26th to go to Charlevoix, Michigan, to spend Christmas with John's older kids from another marriage. So they were planning on flying private, so John was like gonna go, he's gonna check on the plane, make sure everything's ready.

• 1:38:47Speaker 02

  Where, Charlevoix?

• 1:38:50Ashley Flowers?

  So, Michigan, so for my crime junkie people, do you remember the episode we did on North Fox Island?

• 1:38:56Speaker 02

  Of course, I remember.

• 1:38:58Ashley Flowers?

  The whole trafficking ring, like Father Sheldon, whatever. So, North Fox Island is like, Charlevois is like the main little town. That's like the closest, yes.

• 1:39:07Speaker 02

  Like a bay.

• 1:39:08Ashley Flowers?

  So now it's a crime drinking context. That's where Charlevois is. So, it's not like on and off, it's on the mainland, but like it's still pretty hard to get to, so like hence the private plane.

• 1:39:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:39:18Ashley Flowers?

  So, he's going to check the plane, Patty's like finishing, packing, she's wrapping some gifts for all the kids to open in Michigan. Some neighborhood kids come over at some point to play with JonBenet and Burke. And, everything's going well, like in the evening, they get ready to go to the White's house for a Christmas dinner. Patty wants her and JonBenet to match, like black pants, red shirt. JonBenet is not into it, she wants to wear this like shirt with a silver star. Six-year-old wins, like if you have a six-year-old.

• 1:39:46Speaker 02

  That is so true.

• 1:39:47Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And so, they go to the White's, they have crab, like that's really like the only, like, we know they eat crab for dinner. So, like, it's interesting because not much has been leaked about this party, like I haven't, there's no pictures, I don't know what happens. And like, it's not a huge party. From my understanding, it's like their family Christmas dinner that they had invited the Ramses to like the year before and then this year. So, it just became kind of this little tradition, but it seems small and intimate-ish. So, the family goes to this dinner, then they leave, but they make some stops first. Patty had gotten some gift baskets for other friends. So, they go to the home of the Walkers first, they drop off the gift basket, Patty just like runs in while the rest of the family stays in the car.

• 1:40:29Ashley Flowers?

  Then they go to the Steins, what I was talking about, they drop off a gift there, Patty goes in for like 10 to 15 minutes. She can't really remember if Burke went in with her, but like he might have because he has a friend, or the Steins have a kid that's like his age, so like it would make sense if he did. John doesn't remember for sure who went in or not, like, nobody remembers if JonBenet did, they don't think so, but whatever. Nothing notable. They had one more stop they were supposed to make, another gift basket, but it was getting late, they had to get up early in the morning, so they decided to just go home. Now, it's just a couple minute drive to their house from the Steins. And when they get there, they say that JonBenet was already like zonked out. So as they're giving these like longer statements to police, this is again where we get like,

• 1:41:14Ashley Flowers?

  no, she was never awake and Jon read a story to her. Like she was asleep is what they say. Jon had to carry her up to her room. He put her in the bed. He took off her coat, took off her shoes. And then Patsy took over from there. And she said she changed her out of her pants, like just put those long johns on. And the whole time, she's like, JonBenet was so tired that she didn't even wake up at all. Which like I've heard people like rumble about.

• 1:41:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I mean, this literally happened to me yesterday. May fell asleep in the car, Justin fully unbuckled her out of her seat, carried her in, laid her on her bed, and she slept for another hour.

• 1:41:51Ashley Flowers?

  I fully like, yeah, changed Josie the other day and she was like zonked. So like, especially if you come from like a party with friends and stuff, like kids can get tired.

• 1:41:59Speaker 02

  It snaps them, yeah. But when does the big, like, size 12 underwear get put on her in all of this?

• 1:42:06Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know. It is so weird. The underwear is like a big thing I can't explain because it seems like the underwear was originally bought for another family member, like a young girl in the family who would have been like a size 12. I've heard that maybe it was wrapped up like as a gift to take with them, like as a present in the basement somewhere. But then like, oh, maybe JonBenet decided she wanted them. There's never like a good, clear answer on why she's wearing them.

• 1:42:38Speaker 02

  Where they came from.

• 1:42:39Ashley Flowers?

  Where they came from.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  When they got on her, any of that.

• 1:42:42Ashley Flowers?

  Mm-hmm. So, again.

• 1:42:44Speaker 02

  Question mark.

• 1:42:45Ashley Flowers?

  Question mark. So Patsy put JonBenet down. Jon is downstairs with Burke, because I guess he still wanted to play a little bit. He had this toy or something that he wanted to like put together. Dad was helping him with that for a little while. Patsy finishes up some last minute things, then she goes to bed. She says she probably does her normal routine, like brush her teeth, wash her face, whatever. And then when Jon went to bed, he said she's already there. That she, you know, I don't know that she's necessarily asleep, but he's like, we don't like have an interaction. She's down and I read for a little bit and then I fall asleep. And then we didn't wake up until the morning. So the big differences here now are that Jean Benet is asleep when they get home.

• 1:43:25Ashley Flowers?

  Whereas before, we see in early reports that she was awake, that John read to her. That's not the case anymore. And the Ramses say, and I've said this before, like, everyone the day of misunderstood them. They wrote their reports wrong. That John didn't read to Jean Benet, that he read when he went to bed.

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:43:44Ashley Flowers?

  And again, people will be like, so everyone who wrote a report got it wrong? And they say like, I don't know if information was flowing from one person to another.

• 1:43:52Speaker 02

  Right, I was gonna say, but there's like a lot of like transcription and using reports as references that might have been happening.

• 1:43:58Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. They say they have always been consistent, and that's not the case. They don't know where they got that from. Now, the next morning, John is the first one up, but like before the alarm, he took a shower. Patsy wakes up then, while he's like in the shower, she throws on the same clothes. We talked about this from the night before. She puts on her makeup, does her hair, and then she goes downstairs where she finds the note. And then when she finds the note, she calls for John. Burke is asleep the whole time, and at some point, John checked on him to make sure that he was there and okay. But they, again, leave him to sleep till they knew what to do. So you already know, they call police, even though the note says in the statement, like, "Do not call police." John tells her to call. The scene isn't preserved in any way, and a little after 1 o'clock in the afternoon,

• 1:44:43Ashley Flowers?

  John finds Jean Benet in the wine cellar, where presumably she had been all along.

• 1:44:49Speaker 02

  What always baffles me is how had no one looked in this room, this wine cellar, like, the whole day? There were so many people in that house, and they were everywhere, except for Jean Benet's room.

• 1:45:02Ashley Flowers?

  But this is one of like the great mysteries, and it's potentially another example of Murphy's Law? Or like, maybe not, maybe this is something that just doesn't make sense, I don't know? So Officer French admits that when he went and looked around the house, like, he saw that door, but he saw that it was a latch, and he, I don't know if it's because the latch was high, or like, what about it that he was like,

• 1:45:25Speaker 02

  "Oh, this wouldn't make sense for a little girl to go through or something."

• 1:45:29Ashley Flowers?

  He just doesn't even open it and look, which is just like bananas to me.

• 1:45:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:34Ashley Flowers?

  Now, I've heard Fleet White even went down in the basement at some point that day and looked around. He even, oh, he opened the door. So more than friendship, he actually opened the door to the room that they end up finding JonBenet in. But doesn't see anything. The one thing I'll say is Jon says, um, or like his old interviews, it's like not clear. He can't remember if he like turned on the light or if the light was, or if it was off, which I understand, right? Like in the, in that moment, like that's not a detail I would remember. So is it possible that Fleet didn't turn it on? Jon could also just like naturally like break, like instinctively know where the switch is because it's his house.

• 1:46:11Speaker 02

  Right. And I think the other thing that sticks with me is I've heard it before that he'd made like a beeline for this wine cellar. Like is, is that true?

• 1:46:19Ashley Flowers?

  Yes and no. So he does, when she says, hey, go look top to bottom, he does go right for the basement. I think he makes, he goes to the broken window first, I think, or at least like draws Fleet's attention to the broken window. And then he goes to the wine cellar, but it is pretty immediate. And here's the other thing that I can't explain. So remember how a year ago when we started this story, I told you that Jon, that Jon went to the basement, like at some point that morning when he was looking around? So he says that he goes down, this is like before or right about like 10 a.m. So he says he goes down and he noticed the broken window. And he said the, the window was like unlatched and open. And he, at first he says like slightly, later reports it's like wide open.

• 1:47:05Ashley Flowers?

  But either way, it's really strange because like he says later, what he did is he just like latched it back up? And then, I mean, I told you, he comes up to the basement and he doesn't say anything. He doesn't say the window's broken. He doesn't say the window was open. Which like your daughter is missing at that point, if you're looking for.

• 1:47:21Speaker 02

  Like a, a point of entry or exit. It's notable.

• 1:47:25Ashley Flowers?

  It's notable. And I think that people wonder why he wouldn't bring that up in that moment. But again, you do so many things that don't make sense in the middle of trauma. Now, this window does end up becoming a huge part of the narrative later when the Ramses have to go hire a team to look into the idea of an intruder because, again, they say that the police are only focused on them. So, there are a lot of strange things happening in this case that the media latches on to. This is how we got so many of those wild tabloid stories, which, by the way, like, I don't know if you noticed, I ordered a bunch of these, like, on eBay, just because, like, I wanted to, like, go back and get a sense of, like, what, what, what was...

• 1:48:10Speaker 02

  What was the tone?

• 1:48:11Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, what was everyone seeing? Um, and it was kind of wild, like, we, I definitely wasn't allowed to, like, buy these.

• 1:48:16Speaker 02

  Oh, no. We could see the covers at the grocery store, and that was it.

• 1:48:19Ashley Flowers?

  I could, I think I showed you, like, I was looking at, like, the fashion in here, because we were never allowed to look inside the tabloids.

• 1:48:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:24Ashley Flowers?

  I, like, I don't know what I, it's like when we, the Bye Bye Birdie, when my mom always...

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  Taped over a part that she thought was too scandalous for us to watch.

• 1:48:31Ashley Flowers?

  And we thought it was gonna be so bad. It was so much worse in our heads.

• 1:48:35Speaker 02

  And we watched it, and it was just a dance scene that she had cut.

• 1:48:38Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:39Speaker 02

  That was it. That was it.

• 1:48:40Ashley Flowers?

  So, it's like a side story. Uh, it's so interesting because, like, the stor, there's, like, no meat there. They have, like, this wild headline, and then, like, two interesting lines, and then, like, a bunch of nothing. So, back it up.

• 1:48:53Speaker 02

  Like, 17 different lines saying the exact same thing, written slightly different, just to back up the headline.

• 1:48:58Ashley Flowers?

  It's truly headline-only, and all of the headlines were Mom this, Dad that, and the tabloids were freaking ruthless. Like, they were following them. They were harassing them. They said, or Don told me that they had to, like, hide Burke on the floorboard of the car just to, like, get him to school. Like, is nothing off limits. I mean, I already told you about her autopsy photos getting released. Earlier, we talked about her, like, bedwetting, and said that got released because they ended up releasing her medical records? Like, someone leaked this girl's medical records to reporters in some way? And, I, like, I don't want to go into, like, every single visit or not visit. Point is, like,

• 1:49:42Ashley Flowers?

  people were coming out of the woodwork, and anyone with pictures or stories were, like, trying to just make a buck. Some of them were fabricated, some of them were true, and one of them that has become, like, a central part of the story is the fact that JonBenet was having toileting issues. And this information in particular, I feel like kind of becomes the crux of Detective Steve Thomas's theory. He was very clear that he thought Patsy was the one who killed Jean Benet. His idea was that Jean Benet wet herself that night and everything else was done to like stage a cover up.

• 1:50:23Ashley Flowers?

  He even wrote a book on the case and like his theory of it, the Ramses ended up suing him and his publisher over it, they settle out of court. Detective Arndt had a different theory, like she very much was suspicious of John. Like she thought he had something to do with her death and like, I think I brought up her Good Morning America interview already from 1999.

• 1:50:45Speaker 02

  Cordial statement.

• 1:50:46Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, right, right, right. So I don't need to rehash the whole thing. I'm gonna link it out, it's gonna be all the source material. It is interesting to watch, cause she looks like a woman who's shook. Or people like throw out nasty things too. And she doesn't give a motive, maybe she doesn't know what the motive totally was, but she seems to straight up be perceived as like scared of John Ramsey. Like she talks about this moment when he brings Jean Benet's body up and they're both like over her and she's like, I look at him and like in that moment, I just know. And then she like tells him to go call 911 and she says she grabs her shoulder holster, like her gun, and she counts her bullets because she didn't know if everyone would

• 1:51:29Ashley Flowers?

  make it out of their life, or like, or would be alive when they come, like first responders. Now I said she like looks scared to me, but she gets written off as a crazy lady. Like a lot of people call her crazy. Like I think that's an easy out when you're talking about a woman, like we, that's just something that I think is just an easy thing to say, like. And really John in our interview, like he stressed that to me, like just how crazy she was, how like incompetent. But I asked him in the interview, because I do know that later on, Patsy and Linda end up having some kind of like, at least cordial exchanges, where Linda like goes and meets with Patsy for like an hour, like just the two of them. And it's what I asked him, because he was. He was still like, she's so crazy, she's so crazy. And I was like, but clearly there's some kind of relationship.

• 1:52:14Ashley Flowers?

  And at first he was like, well, you know, she was the detective. I'm like, no, no, but like, it was after she got taken off the case. Yeah. What did they talk about? And John says he doesn't know. He was a part of the conversation. So that answer probably died with Patsy. I think John, still, to me, he still called her crazy. And I think she gets a lot of the flack for bungling the scene that first day. But she actually ended up suing her department, saying that she was, they had kind of like an unofficial gab order, from what I understand. And she says she was kept from defending herself, like it wasn't all on her, she says, and it ruined her career. And she does, she kind of like unceremoniously just like gets taken off the case. She got harassed by question mark, I don't really know, I don't know if anyone knows for sure.

• 1:52:59Ashley Flowers?

  She doesn't do interviews anymore. There was a rumor she was writing a book, but I haven't seen like a peep about that. So she probably saw what happened to Steve Thomas with his book. And her case against the department ended up getting dismissed. So there was like no winning for her to talk about this case. Like, I couldn't even reach her for like an off the record conversation. So she's far removed from this now. Mm-hmm. Moral of the story. The loud theories among law enforcement were family centric. And it seems like even they couldn't agree on who or why, because things were a mess. Many people were calling for a grand jury to be convened, so that they could decide, what is his tabloid fodder and what is real evidence?

• 1:53:43Ashley Flowers?

  Like, was there someone in the house responsible for something that night? Or should we be out there looking for an intruder like the Ramses have been saying all along? And it takes almost two years, but the dam finally breaks in September of 1998. That is when a grand jury finally gets called. But before that gets going, two very big letters get published publicly. One from Fleet White in anticipation of the grand jury. And then another from Detective Steve Thomas, who is like donezo with this. He resigns from the department in like a pretty dramatic way.

• 1:54:25Ashley Flowers?

  And listen, the next part's gonna be like just a little bit long, but girl, it's like, it is spicy. And remember, you guys, like you signed up for this. So I am going to edit each of these just a little bit down for like clarity, but I'm gonna have links to the full thing in our show notes. So you can go read them in full. Grab your popcorn, let's get comfy. The first, from Detective Steve Thomas.

• 1:54:51Speaker 07

  Chief Beckner, on June 22nd, I submitted a letter to Chief Kobe, requesting a leave of absence from the Boulder Police Department. In response to persistent speculation as to why I chose to leave the Ramsey investigation, this letter explains more fully those reasons. The primary reason I chose to leave is my belief that the District Attorney's Office continues to mishandle the Ramsey case. I had been troubled for many months with many aspects of the investigation. Albeit an uphill battle of a case to begin with, it became a nearly impossible investigation because of the political alliances, philosophical differences, and professional egos that blocked progress in more ways and on more occasions than I can detail in this memorandum.

• 1:55:35Speaker 07

  On June 1st and 2nd, 1998, we crunched 30,000 pages of investigation to its essence and put our cards on the table, delivering the case in a formal presentation to the District Attorney's Office. We stood confident in our work. Very shortly thereafter, though, the detectives who know this case better than anyone were advised by the District Attorney's Office that we would not be participating as grand jury advisory witnesses.

• 1:56:00Speaker 04

  How were we expected to solve this case when the district attorney's office was crippling us with their positions? I believe they were, literally, facilitating the escape of justice. During this investigation, consider the following. During the investigation detectives would discover, collect, and bring evidence to the district attorney's office, only to have it summarily dismissed or rationalized as insignificant. The most elementary of investigative efforts, such as obtaining telephone and credit card records, were met without support, search warrants denied. The significant opinions of national experts were casually dismissed or ignored by the district attorney's office. Even the experienced FBI were waved aside.

• 1:56:43Speaker 04

  In a departure from protocol, police reports, physical evidence, and investigative information we shared with Ramsey defense attorneys, all of this in the district attorney's office, spirit of cooperation. I served a search warrant, only to find later defense attorneys were simply given copies of the evidence it yielded. An FBI agent whom I didn't even know quietly tipped me off about what the DA's office was doing behind our backs, conducting investigation the police department was wholly unaware of. I was advised not to speak to certain witnesses and all but dissuaded from pursuing particular investigative efforts. Innocent people were not cleared, publicly or otherwise, even when it was unmistakably the right thing to do, as reputations and lives were destroyed.

• 1:57:28Speaker 04

  Some in the district attorney's office, to this day, pursue weak, defenseless, and innocent people in shameless tactics that one couldn't believe more bizarre if it were made up. I was told by one in the district attorney's office about being unable to break a particular police officer from his resolute accounts of events he had witnessed. In my opinion, this was not trial preparation. This was an attempt to derail months of hard work. There is evidence that was critical to the investigation, that to this day has never been collected, because neither search warrants nor other means were supported to do so. Not to mention evidence which still sits today, untested in a laboratory, as differences continue about how to proceed. While investigative efforts were rebuffed,

• 1:58:13Speaker 04

  my search warrant affidavits and attempts to gather evidence in the murder investigation of a six-year-old child were met with refusals, and instead, the suggestion that we ask the permission of the Ramses before proceeding. And just before conducting the Ramsey interviews, I thought it inconceivable I was being lectured on building trust. These are but a few of the many examples of why I chose to leave. Having to convince, to plead at times to a district attorney's office to assist us in the murder of a little girl by way of the most basic of investigative requests, was simply absurd. I believe the district attorney's office is thoroughly compromised. When we were told by one in the district attorney's office months before we had even completed our investigation,

• 1:58:58Speaker 04

  that this case is not prosecutable, we shook our heads in disbelief. Will there be a real attempt at justice? I may be among the last to find out. It is my belief the district attorney's office has effectively crippled this case. The time for intervention is now. What I witnessed for two years of my life was so fundamentally flawed, it reduced me to tears. Everything the badge ever meant to me was so foundationally shaken, one should never have to sell one's soul as a prerequisite to wear it. On June 26, after leaving the investigation for the last time, and leaving the city of Boulder, I wept as I drove home, removing my detective shield and placing it on the seat beside me,

• 1:59:41Speaker 04

  later putting it on a desk drawer at home, knowing I could never put it back on. At 36 years old, I thought my life's passion as a police officer was carved in stone. I realized that although I may have to trade my badge for a carpenter's hammer, I will do so with a clear conscience. It is with a heavy heart that I offer my resignation from the Boulder Police Department in protest of this continuing travesty. Detective Steve Thomas, Number 638, Detective Division, Boulder Police Department.

• 2:00:12Speaker 02

  Okay, that was so much.

• 2:00:15Ashley Flowers?

  I, I.

• 2:00:15Speaker 02

  And you.

• 2:00:16Ashley Flowers?

  I edited it down.

• 2:00:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, you see, you trimmed this up.

• 2:00:19Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:20Speaker 02

  Clarity. We only got the big parts, the important parts, but I mean, I guess what I'm taking away from it is he's thinking that the police and the DA.

• 2:00:31Ashley Flowers?

  Well, he's saying, so he was on Boulder, he was on Boulder PD. And he's basically highlighting the rift that I think was kind of becoming evident, like it very much felt like they were a little bit on different teams. And, and they tried like publicly to like be a united front, but it was like, it was pretty clear that's not what was happening. And you know, one of the things I actually, he kind of like touched on it, the search warrants and stuff. Um, when I was interviewing John, I was like, you know, one of the things I heard was that like they didn't get your like cellphone records and stuff like that. He's like, no, no, no, like the second they asked for something, we gave it to them. And it's like, this is one of those things where like, it's all true. So it seems like the DA's office was delaying the PD

• 2:01:12Ashley Flowers?

  in requesting those things, like they weren't signing the search warrants. They were asking them not to go ask the family.

• 2:01:18Speaker 02

  So there were times when maybe things weren't collected in a timely manner, but it wasn't because the Ramses were withholding things. It's because things weren't like flowing properly on the law enforcement side.

• 2:01:28Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And like, and at the same time, not because law enforcement didn't want it, it's because they were like being.

• 2:01:33Speaker 02

  Bureaucracy.

• 2:01:34Ashley Flowers?

  It like, yeah, like yes, and maybe more.

• 2:01:37Speaker 02

  Yes, and but why?

• 2:01:38Ashley Flowers?

  But why? But why? So the Ramses have been clear that they feel like no other suspects were investigated properly. And if you read legal depositions or watch any of the clips that have come out from them. Like again, that letter from Steve Thomas is scathing. His book is as well. But I like went through and I was like reading the deposition and watching some of the clips and there are times that in my opinion, Steve Thomas gets caught where like, I do think there were areas pointed out where like they could have done more investigating or ways that he, he frames things in his book that I don't like when you're literally like on the line legally. Maybe it's not as like strong as like you again framed it.

• 2:02:24Ashley Flowers?

  And then I also think we're very clear and that there is not a symbiotic relationship between the DA's office and the police. And the second letter I mentioned, the Fleet White letter, I think it really raises the question of why that was, which is what we're saying, but why? So here you go. Again, edited down a little bit, but I'll link you the full one.

• 2:02:50Speaker 07

  "To the people of Colorado, in anticipation of receiving a subpoena to appear before that grand jury, we wish at this time to address matters concerning the investigation, which we feel are of great importance to the people of Colorado and the Boulder community. After John Benet Ramsey was killed in Boulder nearly 20 months ago, her parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, immediately hired prominent Democrat criminal defense attorneys with the law firm of Haddon, Morgan, and Foreman. This firm and its partners have close professional, political, and personal ties to prosecutors, the Denver and Boulder legal and judicial communities, state legislators, and high-ranking members of Colorado government, including Governor Roy Romer.

• 2:03:35Speaker 07

  We knew John Benet and her parents very well and have been closely involved in the investigation as witnesses. During the past year, we have also come to know and respect Mr. Thomas and were saddened and discouraged by his departure from the investigation. We share Mr. Thomas's view regarding the district attorney and his contention that overwhelming pressure brought to bear on the district attorney and police leadership from various quarters has thwarted the investigation and delayed justice in the case. While it is unlikely that the district attorney has been corrupted by Ramsey defense attorneys, it is certain that the district attorney and his prosecutors have been greatly influenced by their metro-area district attorney advisers and by defense attorneys' chummy persuasiveness

• 2:04:18Speaker 07

  and threats of reprisals for anyone daring to jeopardize the civil rights of their victim clients. Indeed, the district attorney and Ramsey attorneys have simultaneously rebuked the police for focusing their investigation on the Ramses when in fact, police were simply following evidence. Notwithstanding what the public has been led to believe, Boulder police leadership and detectives have been under the effective control of the district attorney and his advisers since the early days of the investigation." In December 1997, we met with Governor Romer to request that the state intervene and appoint an independent special prosecutor to take over the investigation and prosecution of the case. Citing the growing conflict between police and prosecutors and the delay of any progress

• 2:05:03Speaker 07

  in the investigation, we expressed our view that bolder authorities were incapable of seeking justice. Most developments in the case brought to the public's attention throughout 1997 should be regarded as well-publicized but clumsy attempts by the district attorney and police leadership to look busy, follow long task lists, and clean up investigative files while the district attorney killed time and spread out responsibility for the case. On the other hand, advances in the case since early this year have been carefully planned to condition the public for a grand jury investigation. The district attorney's past indecision and the need for police to ask him for a grand jury investigation were deliberate attempts to mislead the public.

• 2:05:46Speaker 07

  If based on nothing other than the district attorney's repeated public statements and leaks characterizing the case as "not prosecutable," there can be little doubt that, absent a confession, the people running the investigation had long ago decided against filing charges in the case. Instead, they manipulated public opinion to favor the use of the grand jury. There is compelling evidence, however, that their motivation for presenting the case to a grand jury has little or nothing to do with obtaining new evidence, grilling reluctant witnesses, or returning an indictment and everything to do with sealing away facts, circumstances, and evidence gathered in the investigation in a grand jury transcript. It is our firm belief that the district attorney and others intend to use the grand jury and

• 2:06:31Speaker 07

  its secrecy in attempt to protect their careers, and also serve the conflicting interests of powerful, influential, and threatening people who have something to hide, or protect, or who simply don't want to be publicly linked to a dreadful murder investigation. In direct response to Mr. Thomas's recent letter, Governor Romer met on August 12th, 1998, with district attorneys Grant, Ritter, Peters, and Thomas. Later that day, Governor Romer announced at a press conference that Hunter had told him that the case was "on track for a grand jury." Romer said that "it would be improper to appoint a special prosecutor now, but that to improve public confidence in the case, he would make available to Hunter additional prosecutorial expertise."

• 2:07:16Speaker 07

  On August 13th, 1998, The Rocky Mountain News offered an editorial entitled "Calling in the Cavalry", in which the editor generally supported Governor Romer's action, but insightfully asked the obvious question: "Why has it taken so long for Hunter's office to present the case to a grand jury?" There is a relatively simple but compelling answer to the question raised by The Rocky Mountain News editorial. Since very early in the case, there has been at least a tacit understanding among the district attorney, police leadership, those persons advising these agencies, and Ramsey defense attorneys that the case would be presented to a grand jury, but not until the statutory Boulder Grand Jury was convened in April 1998.

• 2:08:00Speaker 07

  This delay was deemed necessary by some or all of these parties in order to take advantage of a new statute concerning grand jury reporting procedures. By law, however, this change in procedure would only apply to reports issued by grand juries convened after October 1st, 1997. In order to take advantage of the new statute, a Boulder Grand Jury would have to wait until April 1998, the next convening of the Statutory Boulder Grand Jury subsequent to October 1st, 1997. In order to accomplish this, it was necessary for these people to stall and cynically rely on the public's relative ignorance of the statute and the purpose and general nature of grand juries.

• 2:08:41Speaker 07

  Speaking in favor of the bill before the committee were District Attorneys Ritter, Thomas, and Grant. All of these District Attorneys, along with Jim Peters, would be named publicly as advisors to Alex Hunter on the Ramsey case. The original intent of the Colorado District Attorney Council draft, and that of Representative Kaufman, was to make it easier for grand juries to issue reports in cases where there is not an indictment returned, but where, in the public interest, the grand jury wishes to address allegations of misconduct by public employees falling short of criminal conduct. The final bill made it possible for a grand jury to address allegations of first and second degree murder, and the two classes of child abuse resulting in death.

• 2:09:23Speaker 07

  The new statute would enable a Boulder grand jury investigating the death of John Benet Ramsey to publicly exonerate someone who'd been alleged to have committed one of these crimes, but only in the event an indictment was not returned. The bill was signed into law by Governor Romer on April 8, 1997. It is certain that Boulder County District Attorney Alex Hunter, the metro-area District Attorneys advising Mr. Hunter, the current leadership of the Boulder Police Department, the three attorneys advising the Boulder Police Department, and Ramsey defense attorneys have known that to take advantage of the new statute, it would be necessary to delay

• 2:10:03Speaker 07

  a grand jury investigation of the Ramsey case until April 1998. The people of Colorado are entitled to be frustrated and angry with those public officials and other persons who have brought this case to its current status. We must be mindful, however, of the first cause of the investigation's failure: the refusal of John and Patsy Ramsey to cooperate fully and genuinely with those officially charged with the responsibility of investigating the death of their daughter, John Benet. Fleet Russell White Jr. and Priscilla Brown White. August 17, 1998. Boulder, Colorado.

• 2:10:44Speaker 02

  Okay. What?

• 2:10:46Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 2:10:47Speaker 02

  My head is absolutely spinning. I can barely get my thoughts straight on this.

• 2:10:51Ashley Flowers?

  I know. We obviously weren't reading Colorado newspapers in 1998 and like this seems a little too hard hitting for like the grocery store tabloids.

• 2:10:58Speaker 02

  When we were in like 3rd grade.

• 2:11:00Ashley Flowers?

  So I think a lot of people missed this.

• 2:11:02Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. So, basically in a nutshell, Fleet is saying that there's just mad corruption.

• 2:11:09Ashley Flowers?

  Not so much corruption, but like conflict of interest.

• 2:11:12Speaker 02

  So, a bill was made with the intention of clarifying the law so that there was more like transparency in the process for the public.

• 2:11:20Ashley Flowers?

  Uh-huh.

• 2:11:20Speaker 02

  Which would basically let them issue certain reports from grand jury proceedings, but still keep other parts of things confidential.

• 2:11:27Ashley Flowers?

  Mm-hmm. Check.

• 2:11:29Speaker 02

  But by the time it reached the system, timing it like right after Jean Benet's death and with the help of people providing advisement, consultation, or representation in her case, it was a little different.

• 2:11:42Ashley Flowers?

  Different, yeah.

• 2:11:43Speaker 02

  Because I know where this is going, I'll cut right to the chase. One of the main things that it would allow them to do is say that like, oh, the jury didn't indict, which means there's no case, my hands are tied, blah blah blah.

• 2:11:55Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. Bingo. And you do know where this is going. So the grand jury is called. Lots of witnesses. We know some through reporting, like who was going to court and whatnot. Like I know Detective Linda Arndt, I know Burke, I know the Ramses pilot, the Whites, lots, lots, lots more.

• 2:12:12Speaker 02

  Big hitters, yeah.

• 2:12:13Ashley Flowers?

  Not Steve Thomas, as we know from his letter. Not the Ramses, like John and Patsy, though John has always maintained that they were more than willing to go to participate in any way necessary, but ultimately they were not called. And then, in October of 1999, their hearings come to an end and the district attorney makes this long-awaited announcement.

• 2:12:36Speaker 02

  The Boulder grand jury has completed its work and will not return. No charges have been filed. The grand jurors have done their work extraordinarily well, bringing to bear all of their legal powers, life experiences, and shrewdness. Yet, I must report to you that I and my prosecution task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant the filing of charges against anyone who has been investigated at this time. Under Colorado law, the proceedings of the grand jury are secret. Under no circumstances will I or any of my advisors prosecute. The law enforcement officers working on the case or grand jurors discuss the grand jury proceedings today or ever unless ordered by the court.

• 2:13:17Speaker 02

  So basically, everyone decided the Ramses had nothing to do with it because the grand jury didn't indict.

• 2:13:23Ashley Flowers?

  Yes, that was basically the implied message to the public, like, hey, no tabloid BS. Like, these are the facts and these people decided that there would be no charges is the implied message.

• 2:13:34Speaker 02

  And did Linda Arndt ever speak out after that?

• 2:13:37Ashley Flowers?

  No, so she did her Good Morning America thing that I talked about. She did that right before this happened.

• 2:13:43Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:13:44Ashley Flowers?

  So she did that interview in September. And the Ramses lawyers, they made a statement about her appearance that I found in the Denver Post. Because they like comment on the timing. So they said, quote, "We question the timing of this interview." The statement from the Ramses attorney said, "The grand jury will conclude its work in the next month. There is no good reason why Ms. Arndt could not have sought publicity after the grand jury process was concluded." End quote. Now, after this is when momentum really picks up, I think, for the Ramsey family, who finally feels this small amount of vindication. And they hope that maybe now investigators will focus on looking for the intruder that they say came into their home, that they've been saying all along came into their home.

• 2:14:29Ashley Flowers?

  A home which they sell and move away from to go back to Georgia. And John told me that his company had this relocation program where they would buy your house. Like, and I've seen stuff like this with like big organizations, especially for like high up execs. Like, they would buy it from you so that you can move when they need you to move and not be like held up by this house or whatever. So they buy it and then would sell it or whatever. But it's interesting because like the documentation around this is kind of weird. So from the records that I pulled from the assessor's office, I see where the house was bought, presumably by the Ramses in 1991 for $500,000. Then in December of 1997, so this is about a year after Jean Benet, it looks like there is a transfer of the deed, but it is a $0 transfer.

• 2:15:13Speaker 02

  So like no one bought it? It was like me giving a house to you or something like that?

• 2:15:18Ashley Flowers?

  There's no money association from the assessor's office records. And I can't see who it went to, like, they don't have that publicly available on the website.

• 2:15:26Speaker 02

  There's just a transfer on record.

• 2:15:28Ashley Flowers?

  Right. Then we see another transfer happen in February of 1998 for $650,000.

• 2:15:35Ashley Flowers?

  According to statements made to reporters, Mike Bynum says that a group of investors purchased the Ramsey house from like this locky middleman thing, but they didn't purchase it under any like one person's name or persons names, which again is like a totally normal thing. The LLC formed is named after the address. So it's 755 15th Street LLC. Mike Bynum told the Daily Camera that this group of investors was composed of individuals assisting the Ramsey family.

• 2:16:09Speaker 02

  What does that even mean?

• 2:16:10Ashley Flowers?

  I can't tell you because I looked up the property records and then the business records. So I went and looked for 755 15th Street LLC. The company doesn't list individuals' names under its members. So instead, it lists group two partnership, group four partnership. And then there's a registered agent because you have to have someone's name.

• 2:16:34Speaker 02

  You can't just have a human there.

• 2:16:35Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, you can't just like go company or company or LLC, whatever. And the registered agent is a woman named Anne Bork. And there's a listed address of 1915th Street in Boulder. So I did a newspaper.com archive lookup with that address. And like, listen, newspapers.com, it's great. It's not the end all be all. In fact, I found that it's like actually very hard to find a lot of Boulder things in there. I don't think they're included. But I did find one article in total. When I Google that address, there is one article that comes up and is from the Daily Sentinel from February 6, 1997. It's this article about like the cost of the Ramsey investigation, like what it's costing like the police, the city.

• 2:17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:17Ashley Flowers?

  And then towards the end, it says, Wednesday, the Ramsey family announced the address to mail contributions for a children's advocacy group founded in their daughter's memory. Donations may be sent to the John Benet Ramsey Children's Foundation in care of the Colorado Business Bank of Boulder. 1915th Street, Boulder, 80302.

• 2:17:39Ashley Flowers?

  And so then I got into this like weird rabbit hole with this bank because then when I started looking up the bank, I found this next article from the Daily Sentinel from January 13th, 1997. And it says, "Women's Bank Has Changed Its Name To Colorado Business Bank, A Sign Of The Progress Women Have Made Since The Business Was Founded 20 Years Ago." But in a piece then later that I saw in like denberlibrarian.org, it says that the Women's Bank sold in 1994 and that the name change happened in 1995, not 1997 when this article that I found was. And according to the nice librarian at the Carnegie Library of Local History in Boulder, Colorado, that address, the 1915th Street, was listed for Colorado

• 2:18:24Ashley Flowers?

  Business Bank in their phone books in 1997 and 1998, but then it wasn't there anymore in 1999. And then I saw that like when I look at the Colorado Business Bank, it got bought by BOK Financial in 2018. So it's not like it got bought and changed, you know, in 99 when it disappears. And it all probably means nothing. Like, I don't know who Anne Bork is. It's probably not weird that she, with the house, is tied to this address where like they're doing foundation donations because we know that the group who bought the house was like composed of like people who were supporting the Ramsey family.

• 2:19:01Speaker 02

  It almost feels like, um, almost like an executor of a will type situation, like a figurehead for an organization, a foundation, or whatnot.

• 2:19:10Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. So I don't know. Again, she might have some connection. I like tried reaching out to people who might have like known her. I haven't had any luck getting anyone to talk to me. But let's go back to the house for a second. So the statements made about the house at the time about this like mystery purchase was that this group was gonna hold onto the house for like TBD amount of time and then all of the profits from the house are gonna go to the Jean Benet Ramsey Children's Foundation, which by this point John and Patsy had set up in memory of Jean Benet with the help of, like, Bynum, who's always there. According to the Denver Post, the foundation was formed with the goal to like, I think they said, gather funds to be used in the education and care of children, all in the memory of Jean Benet.

• 2:19:50Speaker 02

  So, you know when the house sold?

• 2:19:54Ashley Flowers?

  I do. So, the house didn't sell until 2004.

• 2:19:58Speaker 02

  Okay. So, this is a total aside, but I just read a book. It's called Tell Me Everything: The Story of a Private Investigation. And it's about this private investigator's assistant who is investigating University of Colorado. And one of the people that she's investigating is like someone who is living in the Ramsey house at the time of the investigation, which is like-

• 2:20:20Ashley Flowers?

  Wait, what year?

• 2:20:21Speaker 02

  Late 90s, early 2000s.

• 2:20:24Ashley Flowers?

  So, it's like in this interim period?

• 2:20:26Speaker 02

  In this interim period, I think.

• 2:20:29Ashley Flowers?

  Ooh, odd.

• 2:20:29Speaker 02

  And like, he's not a person who should be able to necessarily afford a 6,000-square-foot mansion. The timing was just weird. I wanted to mention it.

• 2:20:40Ashley Flowers?

  And we know that there's no like transaction in that period.

• 2:20:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:20:43Ashley Flowers?

  So like, someone must have been like renting it or letting him stay there. I wish I could tell you who, but I don't know who-

• 2:20:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:20:48Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know who-

• 2:20:49Speaker 02

  Who was holding the property at that point.

• 2:20:50Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. Weird.

• 2:20:52Speaker 02

  Just a thought, just an aside, just a weird thing.

• 2:20:54Ashley Flowers?

  Did you just like happen to read that book? I love it.

• 2:20:56Speaker 02

  Literally like a month ago.

• 2:20:58Ashley Flowers?

  Okay. So, to go back, so I looked at the foundation a little bit. So, they say that they're gonna hold the house for TBD amount of time, maybe rent it out, we don't know. And then they're gonna donate the money from like the proceeds of like whatever profit from the house to the foundation.

• 2:21:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:21:12Ashley Flowers?

  I didn't find what I was expecting to find. So, the 990 forms for the organization, they filed in 1998, 1999, and 2000. And they don't show any huge transactions. After 2000, I think they actually stopped filing. And then the foundation gets shut down in 2003. Shutting it down in 2003 meant that contributions from the sale of the house in 2004 couldn't go there.

• 2:21:34Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:21:34Ashley Flowers?

  So, I don't know where they went. You would have to ask Group 2 Partners and Group 4 Partners, if anyone knows who that is. Unfortunately, we can't ask Anne Bork because she died in 2009. So, again, I see why maybe the house stuff didn't go there. I was- Also expecting, though, to see money from the sale of John and Patsy's book. So they wrote a book called The Death of Innocence. And many of the statements that I have seen from them, from their team, from all these different people, is that the proceeds from the book were gonna go towards two things. So the Ramsey legal fees and the foundation. Now, per John, it seems like their legal fees, like, bled them dry.

• 2:22:16Ashley Flowers?

  At one point, his lawyers represented him, he said "pro bono" because they couldn't afford to pay them anymore. What I find interesting is that the goal must have changed to be that two-pronged approach at some time, because when I sat down with John, he actually gave us this, these box of, like, tapes, and most of them are, like, pageant stuff, or home movies, like, family weddings, whatever. But actually, one of those tapes appears to be of John and Patsy practicing their book promotion interviews with a media trainer, which is very normal. Like, I did media training before I went on The Today Show, just talking about my book. But this is where, like, again, in this, at least, it seems like it started that the money was gonna only go to one place. Here, take a listen.

• 2:22:56Speaker 03

  Okay. One. That's it?

• 2:23:01Speaker 03

  You are, you have written a very thorough and interesting book. What do you intend to do with the profits?

• 2:23:11Speaker 03

  If that's not too personal a question.

• 2:23:14Speaker 03

  Should I always wait for Patsy to answer, or should I just... No, just, if I'm looking at you... Okay.

• 2:23:22Speaker 03

  Well, we've established a foundation in Jean-Benay's name to honor her and to leave a legacy for her, and the profits from the book will go to the foundation.

• 2:23:33Speaker 03

  The foundation is going to focus on protecting children against predators.

• 2:23:44Speaker 03

  Is that, I guess that's it, then? I don't know, it just... It leaves me hanging here. I mean, that's a very generous and good thing for you to do. Is it, how will you know how to protect children against predators? I mean, how will you use the money to do that? Well, we've seen a number of flaws in our system as it relates to the murder of a child.

• 2:24:13Speaker 03

  We are the strongest, most powerful nation on earth, and yet, we don't respond with our might when one of our children is murdered.

• 2:24:25Speaker 03

  That's wrong. We want to advocate change.

• 2:24:32Speaker 03

  You know, would it be possible for you to cite some of the cases that you're talking about other than your own? One of the best examples that we have learned about through all of this is that when your child's photograph is taken at school, or at church, or in any kind of activity, dance recitals, piano recitals, that photograph becomes the property of the photographer. And he or she may publish that photograph at any time, any place that they so choose, without your permission. So for instance... They own the copyrights. Well, what danger can happen if you have a picture of your child playing about?

• 2:25:14Speaker 03

  Your child's photograph is someplace, and a pedophile, or someone who has reason to want to zero in on that child and do harm to that child, that is a bad thing. So are you associating that with your own tragedy? Are you saying that there were so many photographs of Jeanne Benet because of the work that she did in the pageants, that that could have incited something? I'm saying that that is an example of one way that we need to, we do not need to put our children out there in newspaper articles. And the photographs should be for family members.

• 2:25:55Speaker 03

  Not for public release. Well, and most important, when a child is murdered in this country, we need to respond with the best we have to find the killer. That does two things. It sends a message that we're not going to tolerate it. And if you think about harming our child, our children, you better think twice. And secondly, it ensures that we capture these monsters before they kill again. I don't doubt that you have, you know, magnificent and wonderful feelings about doing this kind of thing. But how would you go about protecting a child against the perpetrator?

• 2:26:40Speaker 03

  I would advocate that the murder of a child be the most serious offense in our society. It should be a federal crime to murder a child in this country. And once found, once the murderer is found, he should be executed? Or given a life sentence? He should be put away forever. That's the most horrible thing that you would be in command, is to prey on a child. Okay, what I'm getting at is, I think it's a wonderful and very generous thing to do, to donate the profits of your book to such a cause.

• 2:27:24Speaker 03

  I don't know how you're going to implement it and how you're going to make it happen. I was just wondering about that. Through educational awareness, through legislation, they're all... Have you done any of that yet? No. No.

• 2:27:41Speaker 03

  All right. Hasn't the foundation already been set up? I mean, I heard you say earlier... Well, we can offer rewards, substantial rewards for information. We can establish a tip center, an information center. We can establish databases that track known child sex offenders. We can put experts in place, make experts available to local law enforcement. We can advocate in the United States Congress that the murder of a child should be mandated as a federal crime. Federal resources should be put on attacking that.

• 2:28:25Speaker 03

  But so far you haven't done anything like that. No, nor has anyone else. We're gonna try, we're gonna do the best we can. Because it's a horrible flaw in our system. We respond aggressively when a bank is robbed.

• 2:28:38Ashley Flowers?

  So John and I, when I talked to him, we didn't get into where the house money went during our conversation. Because if he sold it, I'm not sure he's the person who has the answers that I'm looking for. We did get a little bit into JonBenet's legacy and what's happening in place at the foundation. I'm gonna touch on that a little bit later. I don't think the Ramses were ever planning to fund the whole foundation themselves. Perhaps there weren't many contributions. At most, like I said, I only saw small transactions, and at most there was like $12,000 that I saw like in the thing. So while starting the foundation was like a noble effort, it perhaps wasn't the undertaking that they were ready for.

• 2:29:19Ashley Flowers?

  As someone who's started a true 501(c)(3), like, it is a heck of a lot of work, and like to keep it running, to keep it sustainable on its own, it is like a massive undertaking. So whatever they were planning, I mean, in that interview, it's like, have you done this? No. Like, are you planning to do it? Yes. Like, that doesn't actually come to fruition. So in 2003, the foundation goes defunct. Oh, there's something, 2003 was a weird year. So the foundation goes defunct in 2003, and then something else happens, and it's one of those other things that I had never known about before.

• 2:29:54Speaker 02

  If you haven't checked out live shopping yet, you are seriously missing out. Whatnot is the top destination for live shopping, and it is completely transforming how we shop online. Unlike traditional online stores, where you're just scrolling through static photos, Whatnot brings real-time excitement. You get to hang out with engaging sellers who love what they love, interact in lively chats, and jump on incredible deals you can't find anywhere else. And you guys, the sheer amount and range of items is mind-boggling. Everything from fashion, beauty, and designer handbags to vintage clothing and rare collectibles. Whatnot has become my go-to to shop the items I want in an honestly really exciting way. I was able to snag a really cute vintage handbag at a kind of unbelievable price, and getting to see it in real time was really helpful and so much fun. Download Whatnot today

• 2:30:39Speaker 02

  and get $20 off your first live purchase. Search "Whatnot", that's W-H-A-T-N-O-T, in the App Store. Sign up and take a shopping trip. Terms apply.

• 2:30:51Ashley Flowers?

  Remember being a kid around the holidays, and anytime you would ask for something, mom would always say, "Wait until the holidays." Well, with Mint Mobile's holiday deal, there's no waiting. Right now, this second, all of their plans are $15 a month. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right with premium wireless for $15 a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even bring your current phone and your number. Choose from three, six, or 12-month plans and say goodbye to a monthly bill. It's so easy. Sign up online and get premium wireless service for $15 a month. So what are you waiting for? To get your new wireless plan for $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com/crimejunkie.

• 2:31:36Ashley Flowers?

  That's mintmobile.com/crimejunkie. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com/crimejunkie. Limited-time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 2:32:05Ashley Flowers?

  Okay, so here is a media release that was sent out on Wednesday, June 4th, 2003, that has been archived on bouldercolorado.gov.

• 2:32:15Speaker 02

  The Boulder Police Department recently became aware that someone was unlawfully sending emails using the name of Chief Beckner. On April 25th, 2003, Rocky Mountain News columnist Charlie Brennan received an email titled as "Being From Chief Beckner," complimenting Mr. Brennan for a recent column he had written on the JonBenet Ramsey case. According to embedded information within the message, the email was sent from an MSN Hotmail account, [email protected]. The email was then signed off with "regards, Mark." Please see below message text. "From Chief Beckner. Sent Friday, April 25th, 2003, 1:16 PM.

• 2:32:59Speaker 02

  To [email protected]. Subject: Great Articles. Charlie, just want you to know, I thought those two articles you wrote today were excellent. You got everything right as you always do. Thanks for all your support. Eventually, it will be proven right. Regards, Mark." Being skeptical of the message's authenticity, Mr. Brennan telephoned Chief Beckner to ask him about the message. Chief Beckner confirmed that he did not send the message. The chief was alarmed that someone was apparently using his title and name without authorization to communicate about the JonBenet Ramsey case with members of the media. Search warrants were obtained and executed for MSN Hotmail in California.

• 2:33:44Speaker 02

  According to MSN Hotmail, the [email protected] account was established in 2000. The account creator provided information stating that the owner was Chief Beckner from Boulder, Colorado, and furthermore, provided an accurate birth year for the chief. Further investigation led police to the Internet Protocol, IP numbers, from where the suspect had been accessing the [email protected] account. Since early March 2003, all access to The Beckner [email protected] account were from a single netcom, now owned by Earthlink, dial-up account. A search warrant was obtained and executed for Earthlink in Georgia. According to Earthlink's records, the account holder that has been accessing the Beckner

• 2:34:29Speaker 02

  [email protected] email account is Susan B. Stein, 5760 Long Grove Drive, Atlanta, Georgia. Susan Stein is known as a close friend of John and Patsy Ramsey and has been interviewed as a witness in reference to the Ramsey investigation. The search warrants also yielded other messages that had been received by the Beckner [email protected] account. A number of these messages indicate that the Beckner [email protected] user had been attempting to convince others that he or she was Chief Mark Beckner. Others appeared to be nonsensical. Please note that the investigators were able to confirm that the messages to and from

• 2:35:11Speaker 02

  Rocky Mountain News reporter Charlie Brennan and Rita Johnson were received or sent by those individuals. The other messages were not confirmed as received or sent by those parties. At the request of the Boulder Police Department, members of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, GBI, went to Ms. Stein's residence in an attempt to interview her on June 3, 2003. However, she refused to talk with the GBI agent. "Chief Mark Beckner is alarmed by the discovery that his name and position as Boulder Police Chief has been used in an effort to communicate with others. Given the history of the Ramsey case and the concerns we have had with information being distributed to the public, oftentimes inaccurate information, this discovery is

• 2:35:54Speaker 02

  disturbing," stated Chief Beckner. "I want the media and public to know that if they have received communications from this email address purporting to be me, that it is bogus. My official email address is public and is [email protected]." Under Colorado law, criminal impersonation is a Class VI felony, and impersonating a police officer is a Class I misdemeanor. The Boulder Police Department and the Boulder County District Attorney's Office have agreed to issue a letter to Susan Stein advising her of the unlawful conduct, and that the use of Chief Beckner's name in such a manner must cease immediately. The [email protected] account has been frozen by MSN Hotmail.

• 2:36:39Speaker 02

  The Boulder Police Department would like anyone receiving email messages from any reported member of the Boulder Police Department to know that official email addresses use the member's last name and first initial, followed by @bouldercolorado.gov. If you are not sure that a message is legitimate, please call the department member to confirm that they did in fact send the message. "We are concerned that there could be other messages out there, reportedly from either me or other department members, that are fake, in an attempt to either receive information or communicate false information," stated Beckner. On June 3rd, 2003, Chief Beckner did receive an email from Susan Stein, in which she apologized for using the Hotmail account, describing it as a "sophomoric prank," and apologizing

• 2:37:23Speaker 02

  for any distress she may have caused. Anyone with additional information is encouraged to call Boulder Police Detective Jim McPherson at 303-441-3330.

• 2:37:38Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, what was that?

• 2:37:40Ashley Flowers?

  Isn't that weird?

• 2:37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think I'm confused. I thought the Steins lived in Boulder.

• 2:37:48Ashley Flowers?

  Yes and no. The Steins did live in Boulder in 1996. They were the ones who the Ramses stopped to give that present to.

• 2:37:56Speaker 02

  They were like the last stop on Christmas. They lived there for a little bit?

• 2:37:59Ashley Flowers?

  Yep, they lived at their house for a little bit after. And some way, somehow, some reason, the Steins end up moving to Atlanta either at the same time as the Ramses, or... After the Ramses moved back to Atlanta, like the timing is unclear. But they do like pick up their family and their lives and move to Atlanta.

• 2:38:20Speaker 02

  I love you so much. We've never moved together.

• 2:38:24Ashley Flowers?

  We've done a lot of moving. We've never followed one another.

• 2:38:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:38:28Ashley Flowers?

  I love you too. And it's interesting because as of Monday, March 17th, 1997, there is this Time article that's published that day where the article is not like what matters. Like it's talking about like the cost of tuition or whatever. But Glenn Stein is quoted in that article, but they give his title. And he's the vice president for finance at the University of Colorado, which is like a pretty sweet gig to walk away from. But still, I mean, I know people move. Before that, the article says that he was a senior budget official at Penn from like, I think it was like 82 to 90.

• 2:39:03Speaker 02

  Uh, the Sandusky years?

• 2:39:06Ashley Flowers?

  The Sandusky era, yeah. So lots of reason to leave, right?

• 2:39:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:39:10Ashley Flowers?

  So maybe he left Colorado to go to another university. Like I, I don't have record of where he went after Colorado, so I don't know.

• 2:39:17Speaker 02

  Well, and again, not to reference this book, but like the timing is interesting because the scandal that the book was investigating was a sex scandal at the University of Colorado.

• 2:39:30Ashley Flowers?

  He's not mentioned though, right?

• 2:39:31Speaker 02

  No, but it's happening at the university and there's a cover up and there's money involved.

• 2:39:36Ashley Flowers?

  So maybe, so the same way he could have been like-

• 2:39:38Speaker 02

  It's just interesting timing, that's all.

• 2:39:40Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, so the same reason, like, I mean, I can understand wanting to like leave Penn or something, like all the reason to want to leave or like find a new-

• 2:39:48Speaker 02

  Something, yeah.

• 2:39:48Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, whatever. So maybe, maybe that's why. Like I could never, like I don't, I didn't understand the timing of it, but like maybe something was going on at the university that he was ready to leave.

• 2:39:57Speaker 02

  And moving to a place where you already know people.

• 2:40:00Ashley Flowers?

  It's good to, it is. Like when you, when you think about like, okay, if my time here is up, like I'm gonna pick up and leave, we could go anywhere. It's good to go to a community where-

• 2:40:10Speaker 02

  You have community.

• 2:40:11Ashley Flowers?

  You have community, right? Like you have some kind of like friend grounding you, whatever. It's so much easier to like integrate into a new life. And maybe they thought about like going to their friends who like, who was, who were, you know, they've become really good friends. Clearly they were living together. Like they're going through such a hard time and maybe part of it was not only for them to have a community, but for them to like support these newfound friends. And the Ramses still needed the support because even though they weren't physically in Boulder, like it didn't, none of it stopped. Like the personal attacks didn't stop, the being hounded by the tabloids didn't stop. Like they followed them across the country, no matter where they went. I even found actually one of the tabloid articles. It's by these

• 2:40:51Ashley Flowers?

  two guys, David Wright and David Duffy. It's from March 11th, 1997, where someone had taken the same plane as the Ramses from one end of the country to the other, just to like, report on their every move. Like who sat where, who looked at who, who didn't look at who, how were they interacting, like who got off the plane where, like, they were all over them. So I understand for the Ramses, again, Steins, maybe they wanted to go support them. The Ramses just needed to get out of there. But they did. The thing I will say too is everyone's like, oh, they like, how do you leave when this investigation is going on for your daughter? Don't you want to be a part of that? They did have boots on the ground on their behalf in Boulder. So Lou Smith is on their team by this point.

• 2:41:32Ashley Flowers?

  So he was an investigator who was originally brought in by the DA's office to look at this case. He ended up leaving because, like, the official capacity, because he got so frustrated. He felt like everyone was so narrowly focused on the family that they were like, missing the bigger picture.

• 2:41:47Speaker 02

  He felt like there wasn't enough being done.

• 2:41:48Ashley Flowers?

  Right. And this dude straight up devoted his, like, life to Jean Benet Ramsey's case. Honestly, his family legacy to this case, because even after he died, his family has like, gone on to continue his work. Like, they've picked up the torch. They were actually a part of this really actually interesting podcast I listened to called The Killing of Jean Benet Ramsey, which I will link to. Admittedly, I, when it first came out, I saw it and I avoided it. And I think it's like so much of this case where I'm like, I already know, like, I cannot believe, like, why are we rehashing this? And it was like, you know, the pageant pictures of her. But, once I was like diving into it, there was actually a ton I didn't know in that podcast about potential suspects. And about the work that Lou Smith has done to

• 2:42:33Ashley Flowers?

  He did, his family did, to like, go down those paths, to vet things, to like, put an order of like, who should we look at, like, you know, we've got a limited number of resources.

• 2:42:42Speaker 02

  Prioritize things.

• 2:42:43Ashley Flowers?

  Prioritization, yes. But anyway, so Lou Smith is like, all over this case, and I think he really gets people, for the first time, to think about, like, if it's not the Rams, not just like, oh, it's not the Ramses, but really think about like, okay, if not them, then who? And how? And why? Now Lou feels confident that the intruder came through that basement window. It was already broken, so they could just like, reach in, unlatch it, open it up. Like, he even demonstrates how easy it would be for someone to like, slip down into the window, so.

• 2:43:17Speaker 02

  Okay, but what about the spider webs?

• 2:43:18Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, I don't, the spider webs, do you, like, do you want to just give them a quick, uh, breakdown of the spider webs?

• 2:43:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was like, this grate thing, covering the area to get into the window. And there were, like, officers who said they saw spider webs on this grate. They said, it had been there for a while, someone would have messed it up if the grate had been moved to get into the window.

• 2:43:39Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:40Speaker 02

  I never really see anything, like, to fully refute that. I think maybe I heard once, they said that maybe the webs weren't like, as fresh as they thought they were.

• 2:43:49Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, like, they were saying that, um, like, if someone had like, moved the grate and then put it back, they would expect the spider webs to be more fresh looking.

• 2:43:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:58Ashley Flowers?

  But they, the interpretation you get from people who are giving us the interpretation of this, is that they had been there for a long time.

• 2:44:05Speaker 02

  They were more like cobwebby spider webs. But like, there aren't any pictures, we don't know what it looks like.

• 2:44:11Ashley Flowers?

  They, they didn't find her body for hours, so, also, like, maybe the intruder was like, the most lucky person on earth. Like, I don't have enough information to like, see for myself, to like, make my own opinion of this. So you just have these two sides, right? Like, the one saying like, it is impossible for those spider webs to be there, and for your theory to be right. Lou Smith being like, it means nothing, like, the spiders mean nothing, this is probably how they got in.

• 2:44:36Speaker 02

  And then there's also like, this third option, where like, maybe neither? Like, John, in early days, like, there, and this is-

• 2:44:43Ashley Flowers?

  Where like the conflicting early reports will be like, oh, they say he told them that he locked up that night, but in all of John's statements afterwards, he's like, we left the doors. I don't know if I checked them. Like, we leave the doors like partially unlocked. Like, there could have been other entry points for this person to come into our home. And they also said lots of people had keys, or like, keys were missing or floating around, or this person had it, or like, we never got this key back. So, all that to say, in my mind, though, that was like very much Lou Smith's theory, is it had to do with this window, them dropping down, them using the suitcase to like get in and out.

• 2:45:18Speaker 02

  The window is not the only option.

• 2:45:19Ashley Flowers?

  It's not the only option, if you are thinking about an intruder theory. So like, I don't want to like die on that hill, or get so caught up in that, that again, you can't look at the bigger picture. And there was some other stuff that Lou points out that we haven't really got into yet. And that is the cord used on Jean-Benay, on her neck and her hands. That is never sourced to anything in the house. We don't know where that cord came from. Same thing with the tape that was over her mouth. Like, that never gets sourced to anything in the house. So, in Lou Smith's mind, that means that someone had to have brought those things in, or taken them out, if they were already in the house.

• 2:45:57Speaker 02

  Right, versus like the legal pad that was left there, the pen, the paintbrush.

• 2:46:02Ashley Flowers?

  Right.

• 2:46:03Speaker 02

  Things that were sourced in the house, but also left in the house.

• 2:46:05Ashley Flowers?

  Left, right. So I don't think you can say that they like didn't come from, we just don't know, there's nothing there. So they like took something with them, is what Lou's saying, like, or we would find them here.

• 2:46:15Ashley Flowers?

  Even if we step away from the evidence in the home, because truly like, you could go back and forth, back and forth, back and debate this till you're blue in the face. I told you it's there. I don't want to argue about the meaning of it. That's not my job. I want to get to the facts. So, in 2003, more DNA testing is done, and from her underwear, guess what they get? An unknown male profile, DNA like before. But this time, it is enough for a full profile, good enough to put into CODIS, which I don't know where I was like sleeping at the wheel before I was like deep in this. Like, hi, I didn't even realize there was a CODIS profile on the Jean Benet Ramsey case.

• 2:46:55Speaker 02

  Uh, neither did I.

• 2:46:57Ashley Flowers?

  There of course have been no matches, or we would have heard about that by now. Yeah, it's just sitting in the database. Hopefully still is. That was actually one of my questions I wanted to ask Boulder PD, because I have seen in other cases that we've worked where the requirements have changed over the years. And I've seen where like the DNA was in, but then there was a change.

• 2:47:16Speaker 02

  Like an update and like not everything.

• 2:47:18Ashley Flowers?

  It was no longer eligible.

• 2:47:19Speaker 02

  Matches the criteria.

• 2:47:20Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so that's what I, as far as, everything I've read is that it's in CODIS. I wanted to ask them specifically that nothing had changed. But in all that time, no hits. So in later years, additional testing is done by some other crime labs. And even other like outside of the state agency, like Bodie, Bodie's a big lab still to the state who's doing a ton of genealogy stuff, a ton of advanced testing. Season of Justice works a lot with them. So Bodie comes in, they do some more testing, and they get an unidentified male profile from her underwear. And lots of people say, here's like the caveat, lots of people say this is from saliva. And they might have done an amylase test, which can, amylase can be found in saliva. It can also be found in other things,

• 2:48:03Ashley Flowers?

  but it's usually, like the levels are so much higher in saliva. So I don't know if that's where they, like that comes from of like, we know it's saliva, because it wasn't, you know, any other fluid that they've been able to like definitively link it to. And I can't get like too far, or I like, I'm afraid I'm going to say something wrong, because that's, it's really technical. So what I can go back to is what is very clear in my mind. And what I do understand is that when they do this testing, they find more DNA. So we know we've got the DNA in the underwear, but they also test like places on her long johns, specifically I think places where they think if someone was going to like, pull down her pants, pull up her pants. And they're able to get touch DNA on the outsides, on the left and the right.

• 2:48:45Ashley Flowers?

  And on one side, the unidentified male one profile that we have in the underwear can't be excluded. So we can't exclude, exclude it. On the other side, it's too small that it can't be included or excluded.

• 2:49:01Speaker 02

  Okay, so we don't know anything.

• 2:49:03Ashley Flowers?

  Well, we know that it might match. We know that the DNA in the underwear might match, or it's at least consistent with the touch DNA on the outsides. Now, I think it's important to note, there is this note that the DNA might come from more than two contributors, which actually makes reading the results, like, from my understanding, even more complicated. But I keep coming back to the word, like, "consistent", because I almost have to retrain my brain because what I had always heard in the public and from statements and stuff is that we have a match. We have the same DNA here, here, and here. And it is not a match in that you can say 100% these are the exact same profiles. It cannot be excluded, cannot be included or excluded.

• 2:49:48Speaker 02

  It's like, "consistent with".

• 2:49:50Ashley Flowers?

  It's enough to be, in my mind, probative. Like, it's still very interesting that we have unknown male profiles in all these places. But let's be clear, make sure we're using the right language. Now, it is powerful enough of a find. The Boulder DA at the time, this woman's name is Mary Lacy, she actually sent the Ramses a letter of apology. She actually sent it to John Ramsey because by that time, John told me that Patsy had lost her battle with ovarian cancer. So, once again, this letter is slightly edited for clarity, but this is what she told John Ramsey via letter.

• 2:50:28Speaker 02

  July 9, 2008. Mr. John Ramsey, as you are aware, since December 2002, the Boulder District Attorney's Office has been the agency responsible for the investigation of the homicide of your daughter, JonBenet. I understand that the fact that we have not been able to identify the person who killed her is a great disappointment that is a continuing hardship for you and your family. However, significant new evidence has recently been discovered through the application of relatively new methods of DNA analysis. This new scientific evidence convinces us that it is appropriate, given the circumstances of this case, to state that we do not consider your immediate family, including you, your wife Patsy, and your son Burke, to be under any suspicion in the commission of this crime.

• 2:51:14Speaker 02

  I wish we could have done so before Mrs. Ramsey died. We became aware last summer that some private laboratories were conducting a new methodology described as "touch DNA".

• 2:51:25Speaker 02

  One method of sampling for touch DNA is the scraping method. This is a process in which forensic scientists scrape places where there are no stains or other signs of the possible presence of DNA to recover for analysis, any genetic material that might nonetheless be present. We contracted with the Bodhi Technology Group, a highly reputable laboratory recommended to us by several law enforcement agencies, to use the scraping method for touch DNA on the long johns that JonBenet wore and that were probably handled by the perpetrator during the course of this crime. The Bodhi Technology Laboratory was able to develop a profile from DNA recovered from the two sides of the long johns. The previously identified profile from the crotch of the underwear worn by JonBenet

• 2:52:07Speaker 02

  at the time of the murder matched the DNA recovered from the long johns at Bodhi. Unexplained DNA on the victim of a crime is powerful evidence. The match of male DNA on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes it clear to us that an unknown male handled these items. Despite substantial efforts over the years to identify the source of this DNA, there is no innocent explanation for its incriminating presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that JonBenet was wearing at the time of her murder. Solving this crime remains our goal, and its ultimate resolution will depend on more than just matching DNA. However, given the history of the publicity surrounding this case, I believe it is important

• 2:52:50Speaker 02

  and appropriate to provide you with our opinion that your family was not responsible for this crime. Based on the DNA results and our serious consideration of all the other evidence, we are comfortable that the profile now in CODIS is the profile of the perpetrator of this murder. To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime, I am deeply sorry. No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion, especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law. I have the greatest respect for the way you and your family have handled this adversity. I am aware that there will be those who will choose to continue to differ with our conclusion.

• 2:53:34Speaker 02

  But DNA is very often the most reliable forensic evidence we can hope to find, and we rely on it often to bring to justice those who have committed crimes. I am very comfortable that our conclusion that this evidence has vindicated your family is based firmly on all the evidence, including the reliable forensic DNA evidence that has been developed as a result of advances in that scientific field during this investigation. We intend in the future to treat you as the victims of this crime, with the sympathy due you because of the horrific loss you suffered. Otherwise, we will continue to refrain from publicly discussing the evidence in this case. We hope that we will, one day, obtain a DNA match from the CODIS databank that will lead to further evidence and to the solution of this crime.

• 2:54:18Speaker 02

  With the recent legislative changes throughout the country, the number of profiles available for comparison in the CODIS databank is growing steadily. Law enforcement agencies are receiving increasing numbers of cold hits on DNA profiles that have been in the system for many years. We hope that, one day soon, we will get a match to this perpetrator. We will, of course, contact you immediately. Perhaps only then we will begin to understand the psychopathy or motivation for this brutal and senseless crime. Respectfully, Mary T. Lacy, District Attorney, 20th Judicial District, Boulder, Colorado. So, there's been a profile in CODIS for, like, 20 years with no hits.

• 2:55:02Ashley Flowers?

  No hits. Not a single one. And, you know, there's an ABC News article saying that they checked that profile against everyone in the family, along with 200 other potential suspects as well, and all of them have been excluded from this profile. In that same article, actually, Mary Lacy kind of gives her theory, which I believe is, like, close, if not exact, to what the Ramses subscribe to, which is that while they're out at the Christmas party, or not the Christmas dinner at the White's, someone snuck into their home, wrote that note, laid in wait, they had plenty of time, and when the Ramses got home, they waited for everyone to go to bed, so they could go upstairs where John Benny was sleeping, and grab her.

• 2:55:45Ashley Flowers?

  Now Lou Smith also strongly believed that a stun gun was used to subdue her. I'm sure that like this theory, like part of this theory has become pretty popular.

• 2:55:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, aren't there like two like little marks that are right next to each other on her back? That Lou said like looked like they could be stun gun marks or something?

• 2:56:03Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, now, so there's the two marks, there's no burn marks, which is said to be really common with stun guns, which is maybe why the original pathologist just noted them as abrasions. It was, you know, there's like a lot of back and forth with this, like was it a stun gun, was it not? Lou Smith's like confidence, so there's actually this point where it's recommended to the Ramses like, "Oh, we should exhume Jean Benet and have someone else look at her to confirm that." Like now that we've got this idea, like could someone else like look at this? I don't even say with a more critical view, but like with that in mind. But the Ramses don't want to do that. Now, keep in mind, this is happening like a lot closer too. So like there's, like, it's not like we're talking years and years down.

• 2:56:44Speaker 02

  So it would have been like useful, timing wise, something might have been there.

• 2:56:47Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, there's still a lot of value in it. Lou Smith seemed to be really on board with this, like, yes, let's do an exhumation, let's get a second autopsy. But I think it was Barbara Walters, when John and Patsy went on, they were just saying like, "We don't want to have her exhumed." Like, "We just buried her," like that is...

• 2:57:04Speaker 02

  It's a lot of trauma.

• 2:57:05Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, it's too painful, like, "We want our daughter to rest in peace." And in their, in their mind, they're like, "You have the original pathology report, you have pictures of this." Like, "Everything we need is here for Lou to even come to this conclusion, like, we don't need to exhume her."

• 2:57:20Speaker 02

  So with the intruder theory, I get the what and the how of the idea. I think it like lines up, it makes sense, there's elements to it that make sense. But I guess that leaves us with like the two major questions left, which is who and why?

• 2:57:37Ashley Flowers?

  Which one do you want first?

• 2:57:39Speaker 02

  Uh, let's go with why.

• 2:57:40Ashley Flowers?

  So, there's no one, so there are two routes with the intruder theory that I have heard the Ramsey camp discuss. One is like this idea that this was a pedophile, some kind of sexual deviant, all around scaring motherf**er, roaming the suburban streets of Boulder. Don't get me wrong, like scary mother is like every brand of the person who did this. But around this theory, what they point to is the paintbrush being put in her, the choking around her neck. And I would hear Lou say that he believes she was hit in the head after she was choked. I think I said that, like, so all of that. That's, that's one potential avenue, theory why.

• 2:58:23Ashley Flowers?

  The other is that it was someone who hated John Ramsey. Like, the note was clearly about John. Everything was addressed to him. Like, when I sat down with him, he even talked more about this theory, I feel like, than the other total, like, a lot, like, he just kept saying, like, "They seem to hate him."

• 2:58:41Speaker 02

  But then the sexual stuff doesn't really make any sense.

• 2:58:45Ashley Flowers?

  It's like we're best friends, because literally, like, I asked him that. And he, and he agrees. He's like, I'm just like, okay, but John, if they're like, if they, if this is about you and your business, and they don't like you, why did they have to do, you're saying all of the other stuff, like, was sexual, it's not a staging, it was sexually motivated. So like, why, that doesn't make sense. And he's like, no, like, I can't make sense of this guy.

• 2:59:03Speaker 02

  Almost like both things can't be true at the same time.

• 2:59:05Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, but I think, I think what they've said before, what I think he would say, and what I know they've said before, is like, you can't make sense of someone like this? So, no.

• 2:59:15Speaker 02

  We've said that before.

• 2:59:15Ashley Flowers?

  We've said that before, yeah. So like, no, this like, doesn't make sense to us, but does that mean it couldn't have happened like that?

• 2:59:21Speaker 02

  So, you gave us two possible whys. But without really landing on one, how do you even get to who?

• 2:59:29Ashley Flowers?

  I think it makes your list really long, like, really long. I know as part of their defense team, the Ramses actually hired John Douglas, like, the father of the BAU, John Douglas, to consult on the case. And he firmly believes in their innocence. Like, I actually asked him for an interview. He couldn't because of some family things, but he like, told us in an email that he was never asked to provide a written profile to either the Ramsey defense or the Boulder PD, but he provided his analysis verbally to both. He thinks the Boulder PD even recorded it. But he said he could tell that even when they were like, hearing him, they still seemed squarely focused on the family. But he firmly believes in the Ramses.

• 3:00:13Ashley Flowers?

  He said, and I actually, he gave us a quote to make his position extremely clear. He said, "There are no words that can describe what a family goes through when their child is a victim of a violent crime." However, what is profoundly even worse on top of that is to have your child murdered and then be wrongfully accused or even convicted of killing your child. The Ramses are not murderers, but victims. They are victims of investigative incompetence as well as intentional and prejudicial news coverage. I've worked many cases where parents have killed a child, but this is not one of those cases. End quote. So, to go back to the hill. If you know this case, you've heard that Santa did it. Santa. Santa.

• 3:00:58Ashley Flowers?

  Yep. The Santa we're talking about is the Santa from the Ramses Christmas party on the 23rd. There were a lot of really odd things about him, his family, like, just like circumstantial things, you're like, oh my god, like those things, it all is just like lined up in a very strange way. There was even supposedly JonBenet was even telling people that like Santa was gonna make a special visit to her after Christmas, which was like a thing that everyone pointed to a lot. There were pedophiles that were found within the pageant circuit, like there is one that surfaces to the top of the list, but not until years later. But when this, like, one comes about, it kind of like proved what people were screaming all along, like very scary people were close to JonBenet and other children throughout

• 3:01:42Ashley Flowers?

  pageantry, because it's actually like the guy who was like her photographer for her pageant stuff ends up being like a prolific pedophile, like he has wild imagery out the wazoo. So, there's that whole segment of things. There was this guy named Gary Oliva who like early days was said to have confessed to killing JonBenet. And listen, people wanna say that Patsy's handwriting is like a close, and again, she's the only one that couldn't be excluded, but like I saw this dude's, like Gary's handwriting, and it's like scary close to the ransom note. There's another guy named John Marc Carr, he confessed to killing JonBenet too. I remember those headlines. Yeah, but like that's what I remember because I remember thinking when I was younger that it got solved.

• 3:02:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, oh my god, this could be it.

• 3:02:26Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and it was, it was huge. I remember it being so huge because he was like living out of the country at the time. And here's the thing, I like, bits and pieces from the headlines, from like what I was seeing, because we were a little bit older at that time. But I never knew the full story about John Mark Carr until I saw the Netflix doc that's coming out November 25th. And we actually got early screeners, like, how they got to him was wild. And like, I, I know I've said this a thousand times, people are gonna get tired of me saying it. Like, when you're deep in a case, like, I could point to, you think there's gonna be like one person who looks so good for it. But then I'm like, I could tell you stories of like five people, 10 people, who if I only told you about them.

• 3:03:09Speaker 02

  You'd be 100% behind that.

• 3:03:10Ashley Flowers?

  That's how it is, like, that's how it is with like Santa, with her like pageant photographer, with John Mark Carr. Like, they go in deep and it's, it is so interesting. It's stuff I never knew. I don't actually wanna like spoil all of that because like the Netflix doc is gonna be out really close to when we're releasing this. So I encourage everyone to just like go watch that for yourselves. And, I mean, I don't wanna, we've already, we've already been here for so long, I don't wanna spend too much time. Because at the end of the day, we also know that no one's DNA has matched the profile they have. Not even the pedophile, John Mark Carr.

• 3:03:45Speaker 02

  Santa.

• 3:03:46Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, Santa, like, like, not even the 200 people I told you they compared DNA to. Whoever this was, they're, they're a ghost. And without a name and a face to associate with the crime, it has left a lot of room for old rumors to maybe like surface again. Or at least like there's rumblings underneath. And those rumblings got very loud in 2013 when the Daily Camera started reporting that years after the grand jury convened, remember the grand jury back in 1999?

• 3:04:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:04:25Ashley Flowers?

  So we're in 2013. They start saying like, maybe things weren't as they seemed.

• 3:04:33Speaker 02

  If you haven't checked out live shopping yet, you are seriously missing out. Whatnot is the top destination for live shopping, and it is completely transforming how we shop online. Unlike traditional online stores, where you're just scrolling through static photos, Whatnot brings real-time excitement. You get to hang out with engaging sellers who love what they love, interact in lively chats, and jump on incredible deals you can't find anywhere else. And you guys, the sheer amount and range of items is mind-boggling. Everything from fashion, beauty, and designer handbags to vintage clothing and rare collectibles. Whatnot has become my go-to to shop the items I want in an honestly, really exciting way. I was able to snag a really cute vintage handbag at a kind of unbelievable price, and getting to see it in real-time was really helpful and so much fun.

• 3:05:17Speaker 02

  Download Whatnot today and get $20 off your first live purchase. Search "Whatnot," that's W-H-A-T-N-O-T, in the App Store. Sign up and take a shopping trip. Terms apply.

• 3:05:29Ashley Flowers?

  Remember being a kid around the holidays, and anytime you would ask for something, Mom would always say, "Wait until the holidays." Well, with Mint Mobile's holiday deal, there's no waiting. Right now, this second, all of their plans are $15 a month. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right with premium wireless for 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can even bring your current phone and your number. Choose from three, six, or 12-month plans and say goodbye to a monthly bill. It's so easy. Sign up online and get premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So what are you waiting for? To get your new wireless plan for 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com/crimejunkie.

• 3:06:14Ashley Flowers?

  That's mintmobile.com/crimejunkie. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com/crimejunkie. Limited-time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required, $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 3:06:45Ashley Flowers?

  All right, so jurors confirmed to the Daily Camera that there was actually an indictment that came out of those proceedings back in 1999. So here's how this came about. A reporter named Charlie Brennan and the Reporters Committee for Freedom of Press filed a lawsuit to have the documents from the proceeding unsealed. They had been sealed, like most grand jury things, like since 1999. Okay, so when that happened, there are 18 pages that get sent to a judge to review to see which ones could be released and what needed to stay sealed to protect, like what a grand jury is. And in total, four of those 18 pages were released to the public.

• 3:07:29Speaker 05

  Count seven. On or about December 25th and December 26th, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, and feloniously render assistance to a person with intent to hinder, delay, and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction, and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death. Asked to count seven, accessory to a crime. A true bill. Signature redacted. No true bill. Count 4A. On or between December 25th

• 3:08:14Speaker 05

  and December 26th, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly, and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of Jean-Bené Ramsey, a child under the age of 16. Asked to count 4A, child abuse resulting in death. A true bill. Signature redacted. No true bill. Count 4A. On or between December 25th and December 26th, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, Patricia Paw Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, recklessly, and feloniously permit a child

• 3:08:59Speaker 05

  to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health, which resulted in the death of Jean-Benay Ramsey, a child under the age of 16. Asked to count 4A, child abuse resulting in death, a true bill, signature redacted. Count 7. On or about December 25th and December 26th, 1996, in Boulder County, Colorado, Patricia Paw Ramsey did unlawfully, knowingly, and feloniously render assistance to a person with intent to hinder, delay, and prevent the discovery, detention, apprehension, prosecution, conviction, and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime, knowing the

• 3:09:44Speaker 05

  person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death.

• 3:09:54Speaker 05

  Asked to count 7, accessory to a crime, a true bill, signature redacted, no true bill.

• 3:10:01Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know what the other counts were, or why they weren't unsealed. But whoa, like, I mean, how did the DA get away with saying that they didn't get an indictment? Because he didn't say that. What he said, it's important because like it-

• 3:10:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, the wording is specific on this line.

• 3:10:22Ashley Flowers?

  It is here. So he said, quote, "The Boulder grand jury has completed its work and will not return. No charges have been filed. The grand jurors have done their work extraordinarily well, bringing to bear all of their legal powers, life experiences, and shrewdness. Yet, I must report to you that I and my prosecution task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant the filing of charges against anyone who has been investigated at this time." Blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's careful wording, like he was going to say he stalked himself.

• 3:11:00Ashley Flowers?

  And this became a legal dust up because some said by law, he was required to sign the indictment. And then if he wanted to move to dismiss the charges, he could have, but just not signing them wasn't a thing he should have been able to do. Now, other analysts say that the law was more ambiguous. I don't know. I don't know if your head's hurting, but mine is like. And listen, the burden of proof to indict versus convict is like completely different. Mad different. So indicting just means like, hey, there's like the abundance of evidence says that something probably happened. But when you go to trial, you have to be.

• 3:11:39Speaker 02

  To prove that it actually did.

• 3:11:40Ashley Flowers?

  Buttoned up beyond a reasonable doubt. So I get an indictment that doesn't necessarily lead to a trial. But like other things in this case, it is the way that it was handled that just feels so shady. So after this comes out, the internet enters their Burke era. And here is where I like, I do roll my eyes a little bit, you guys, like just because it cannot be everyone. I feel like it can't be, it can't be mom did it like because of a wedding accident and dad did it because like she's getting molested and Burke did it because she ate the pine. Like it cannot be all of the things.

• 3:12:21Ashley Flowers?

  It can't be Santa and a foreign faction and Jean Marc Carr. Like it feels a little like the world kind of just like latches on to a theory for a while. And if that doesn't go anywhere or they get bored, they like pick a new thing. But it's not things, like all of these are real people who I say again, cannot all be guilty or all murdering her. So I don't think we have the right to say that we know what happened when we just straight up do not know what happened. But at this point in our story, like, the world is coming for Burke. And maybe, I think a small part of it, like, that at least, like, spawns this. This isn't like a brand-new idea, but like, the way the certain indictments that they did

• 3:13:06Ashley Flowers?

  release, those counts, they were ones about assisting, about placing her in harm's way, like, not actually indicting you for murder yourself. And so I think it gets people being like, okay, well, if it wasn't them, like, who would they be assisting? Who would they be protecting? And the only other person that we know of in that home was her nine-year-old brother. And this reaches, like, peak crazy in 2016, when two things happen. One, Burke goes on Dr. Phil. And two, CBS releases this, like, ridiculous special, "Reinvestigating the Case." Do you remember that?

• 3:13:43Speaker 02

  I remember both of these things.

• 3:13:44Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. So like, I hate to ruin TV for everyone, they legit did zero re-investigating. It was basically just like, one of the books that had been written forever ago, just like, rehashed. They were all just like, sitting around a table getting paid. But, they say, that in this, like, re-investigation, they have this, like, revolutionary theory that Burke was up that night, eating pineapple, JonBenet tried to maybe, like, eat some, he got mad, whacked her in the head with the flashlight, and then, like, everything was staged to cover up for him.

• 3:14:10Speaker 02

  Ah, the pineapple.

• 3:14:13Ashley Flowers?

  We're finally, we're at the pineapple. We're at the pineapple.

• 3:14:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:14:16Ashley Flowers?

  So, we know there's pineapple in her stomach, that cannot be explained by any version of any events that we've gotten.

• 3:14:23Speaker 02

  Every single story does not include pineapple.

• 3:14:27Ashley Flowers?

  Agreed. I could spiral four days here, because without a doubt, there is more to what happened that night, that we just do not know. Like, this is the one thing I can point to, to be like, we don't have the full story.

• 3:14:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:14:39Ashley Flowers?

  Now, it could be that she just got up and got it herself, or that someone else gave it to her. It could be that someone in the house, that could be someone in the house, it could be someone not in the house. But she did not go right to bed. And then die. Like she ate pineapple. We can all agree on that. So there is a bowl of what looks like pineapple and condensed milk next to a glass of tea on the table that was photographed by police, like at the house that day, like when they were processing the scene. When they fingerprint these things, it's Patsy and Burke's prints on the bowl and Burke's prints on the tea. Neither claims to have gotten, like gotten that out or eaten it that night. Patsy suggests that maybe when they had everyone over, like someone got that out, like the morning of.

• 3:15:24Ashley Flowers?

  Cause she doesn't know where it came from. I like, I don't know why, like, this is like stuff in their home. Like, I don't get like too hung up on Patsy's prints being on a bowl. Maybe unless like their housekeeper put everything away, but I think about like unloading the dishwasher.

• 3:15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, or getting something out for Burke, like.

• 3:15:40Ashley Flowers?

  So we see this in a, in an image. We think that like, okay, it could be the pineapple sheet. It also might not be the pineapple sheet. Like, you know what I mean?

• 3:15:47Speaker 02

  It also could just be someone else's pineapple.

• 3:15:50Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And then we still don't know where the pineapple in her stomach came from. But there's also a mag light found on the counter in the house, which it's been theorized that it could be the murder weapon. But there's like zero forensic evidence on that mag light to actually support that it's the murder weapon. No one knows why the light was taken out. No one knows where it came from. Even, they don't even know if it was the Ramses at all. But in the CBS thing, they are sure that Burke hit JonBenet with this flashlight or some flashlight. And it must be true because they show another nine year old.

• 3:16:21Speaker 02

  A little kid hitting a.

• 3:16:23Ashley Flowers?

  A watermelon.

• 3:16:23Speaker 02

  With it. It is.

• 3:16:25Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. It's like.

• 3:16:26Speaker 02

  Awful.

• 3:16:26Ashley Flowers?

  It's 10 out of 10 detective in here, guys. So, so that, that's going to come out in 2016. Before that comes out, Jon Ramsey gets a call. He has a new lawyer by this point. He has cozied up with a guy. They become, or he, or at least he's like with him legally for a long time. He's, his name is Lynn Wood. He's also another fun Google if you have a minute. Lynn has been representing Jon as Jon and Patsy and like the family has been like suing the tabloids who publish really defamatory things about the family. Well, Lynn Wood knows Phil McGraw, AKA Dr. Phil. And so Dr. Phil supposedly, according to Jon, like gives them a call and is like, hey,

• 3:17:08Ashley Flowers?

  heads up, CBS, the network that I'm on is about to do this show where they take aim at Burke. Like you should, you Burke should come on my show and like say your piece. And Burke does. And the world just eats that kid alive.

• 3:17:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember watching this and it almost being painful to watch and then watching what happens after it was like even worse and I, I feel bad empathy for him because like, he's already going through a lot in his life and then to be on camera, it changes so much of like who you are, how you react, like what you say.

• 3:17:53Ashley Flowers?

  And he didn't like, and keep in mind, he didn't grow up on camera.

• 3:17:56Speaker 02

  No, he was like, sequestered is like the best word I can think of, like we didn't see Burke in tabloids, we didn't see Burke on the nudes.

• 3:18:05Ashley Flowers?

  John said that's something they were really intentional about, they wanted him to try and have like as much of a normal life as they could, so they would really protect him, they moved to Atlanta for a while, they end up moving from Atlanta back to Charlotte Bay, so that he like grows up in this like small Michigan town. And so, he's not used to a camera, like it, it does, it comes off awkward, it comes off weird, it's a little uncomfortable, but like, pick any number of reasons why that is, and there's been like theorizing out the wazoo, but like, someone's not guilty of something because they smile too much, like, I'm sorry, no.

• 3:18:38Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:18:39Ashley Flowers?

  And I'm sure the way that we saw like, John and Patsy prep for their interviews, I'm sure there was some prep here, and like, listen, Dr. Phil was like throwing softballs, like that's the one thing I will say. And Burke got his point across, like he says he doesn't know what happened to his sister, he certainly wasn't involved, he said his parents were good parents, and that this is all a media circus that has like kind of ruined his family's life. So, there's like so many things that I'm just like, this interview means nothing, he's like doing the best he can. But then he says this one thing that like, I, I'm like, did I miss, like, what? Did I hear that right? So, he's talking to Dr. Phil and, and I actually, I like, I actually just want to play the clip.

• 3:19:21Ashley Flowers?

  I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed,

• 3:19:27Speaker 03

  and then you snuck downstairs to play? Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed and wanting to get this thing out.

• 3:19:38Speaker 06

  Did you use the flashlight so you wouldn't be seen?

• 3:19:41Speaker 03

  I don't remember. I just remember being downstairs, I remember this toy.

• 3:19:47Speaker 06

  Did you hit your sister over the head with?

• 3:19:49Speaker 02

  A baseball bat or a flashlight. This is not a version of any story we've heard.

• 3:19:57Ashley Flowers?

  Ever, ever heard. And I asked John specifically about this because in my mind, I'm like, oh, my God, this is like, if Burke is downstairs when all this hap- like, did he hear something? Did he see something? And I asked John about this. And again, I go back to like, I know John and Patsy did media training. Like, did they just like throw Burke to the wolves like without it? Like, and Dr. Phil says that John's the one that told him this. So I asked John about it. And at first, John, John was like, oh, no. Like, that's so much has gotten misreported. That's not real. And I said, no, John, like, Dr. Phil says you told him this.

• 3:20:40Ashley Flowers?

  And then Burke responds and agrees and says, yes, I was downstairs.

• 3:20:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:20:44Ashley Flowers?

  And John just said, like, I didn't know that.

• 3:20:47Speaker 02

  OK.

• 3:20:48Ashley Flowers?

  So I asked him, you know, in our interview, I was like, I know people have talked to Burke. Like, they had a lot of child psychologists at the time trying to like, you have to handle that really sense. He's nine.

• 3:20:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:21:00Ashley Flowers?

  I know those people were talking to him. But did at any point you and Patsy have conversations with him? And like, John, like, immediately shut it down. He's like, no, there's no way he did this. And I'm like, actually, that's not what I'm saying. Like, when we were, when we were young, like, we grew up with siblings. I'm like, now there's a world where he's downstairs, even if he wasn't. Say that all of that was like Dr. Phil weird slip up. There's, in my mind, things that like kids see.

• 3:21:25Speaker 02

  A relationship and a bond that like siblings have and you don't necessarily like put the weight in them as a kid.

• 3:21:32Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And like, like, there are things like I knew about my siblings or like I, the way I saw them in a different way than my parents saw them. I saw the way that we interacted with other people differently than my parents saw. Like, also, kids are like attuned to things like we, like, that you notice so much. Yeah. Especially when like so many people are ignoring you as a kid. Like, you just pick up on a lot. But I asked him, I was like, like, there could be something he knows that he doesn't even know he knows. If you've never talked to him in all these years. And John said that, like, he's confident that Burke would have told him if there were something. So, I mean, I think that you're like, how do you, how do you balance that of like trying to do right by your one kid? Trying to get justice for the other one? And I think what he, he is trusting. That Burke would tell him something if there was something to tell.

• 3:22:14Ashley Flowers?

  Or if he, you know, years and years and years down the line, if something comes to him, like, he's gonna come forward. It's his sister. He loved her the same way the rest of his family would have. So, after that CBS special, so Dr. Phil, then there's a CBS special. Lynn Wood represents Burke in a $750 million lawsuit against CBS. And in the suit, they lay out what they call the statement of fact. And, I will say, they do try to correct the record here. So, I mean, there's like, when they statement of fact, they like list these different things. And number 29, it says that Burke exercised his right of reasonable response

• 3:22:54Ashley Flowers?

  by granting one interview to Dr. Phil McGraw, in which he denied any involvement in Jean Benet's murder. So, I actually think like, there was a legal strategy even coming into this, because he would have either, I believe if I'm understanding it right, had to have give statement to CBS in some way, like, in response to like the claims they were making, or have like publicly stated it, and he had never done interviews before.

• 3:23:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:23:18Ashley Flowers?

  So he had to give an interview to someone, so I think that was part of the reason he came forward when Dr. Phil gave him that call. Like, he needed some statement out there saying like, he had nothing to do with his sister's death. Now, the other thing is, it's number 130 and 131. It says that Burke was not awakened during the night, and Burke did not leave his bedroom during the night. So, unless those facts were challenged, which I don't believe they were, because they ended up settling, that kind of becomes the de facto record. So even though we have Burke on Dr. Phil saying he went downstairs, we have this like legal document where they're saying that the fact is, he didn't wake up and he didn't go downstairs. And on paper, that's, I think, the law.

• 3:23:59Speaker 02

  But I wish we could talk to him.

• 3:24:01Ashley Flowers?

  Ask him?

• 3:24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I'm with you, like, I don't think he did anything, but there is just so much that my siblings would do, that I would do, that they knew about, that our parents just didn't see. Like, it's, as kids, you kind of live in your own worlds, like, below the line of sight of your parents in a certain way.

• 3:24:22Ashley Flowers?

  I think if there's something to say, that he can say, he'll say it. I know he's met with investigators, like, so it's not like he hasn't even like talked to police. He did, he's met with child psychologists, so, yeah. To go all the way back to your question of like, how do you get to the who? I don't know. So, you know, we shared when we met with John, like we shared our information and obviously told him, like, if Burke is open to talking, I know he doesn't do interviews. And John said, you know, he's an adult. If he wants to do it, like, he will, but we haven't heard from him. So, I don't know. To get back to your question of, like, how do you get to the who? I think you just start, you've got to just start chipping away at this case. I think that's what certainly Lou Smith was doing with his work. It's what his family

• 3:25:06Ashley Flowers?

  continues to do. Again, I'm going to link to the podcast that I mentioned. I think it's interesting. They kind of go person by person, that they were actually, like, going out there and collecting DNA samples from these people, ruling them out one by one. Suspects that, like, I had never heard of, and not even just the usuals that I mentioned, like Santa and Jean-Marc Carr. Like, Lou left this list behind that people, like, made up of people he thought were worth looking into, and in the order he thought that they should be looked into. And so that's what they're working off of. But you, I mean, like, you have to wonder if the name of Jean-Benay's killer is even on... Is even on that list. I know. Or if, like, has, the other question I have is, like, has the DNA led us astray? Because there was this thing that recently happened in Colorado that has me,

• 3:25:51Ashley Flowers?

  like, all kinds of nervous for this case. So, in 2023, it came to light that an analyst at the CBI lab, this woman named Yvonne Missy Woods, she was manipulating the DNA testing process. Like, this, this investigation is still ongoing as of this recording in November 2024. So far, they have found that she omitted material facts in official criminal justice records and tampered with DNA testing by altering or omitting some test results from the case file. So far, they haven't found any evidence that she falsified any DNA matches, like, thank God, so far. But that is all from cases that she worked between 2008 and

• 3:26:35Ashley Flowers?

  2023. Now, they have to go back and look at paper records from 1994 to 2008. So, she was there...

• 3:26:46Speaker 02

  The whole time of Jeanne Bay's case.

• 3:26:48Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And listen, not all of the DNA testing was done by like state agencies. Like the Long Dong stuff came from Bodie. But there was definitely some pretty critical work that came out of the crime lab in the state. Which has me shook because like, if this is a DNA case, like Lou Smith and the Ramses say, what do we do if the DNA was wrong?

• 3:27:14Speaker 02

  This is not the answer that anyone wants to hear, but you have to start all over.

• 3:27:19Ashley Flowers?

  You have to. I don't know if you can. Now, okay, here's two things. So I'll say, I asked John about this and he says that he's been told by like the people who give him information over, he's been told that confidently, Missy Woods didn't work on the Ramsey case. Like, so he feels confident that the results have not been skewed by whatever she was doing. I mean, like in my mind, the investigation is still ongoing, so like, I don't know, but he, he told me he is confident. He has been told, it's not applicable here. Like, we don't have to worry about it. But if we have to start all over, like, the good news is like, there's even better forms of testing, right? Like, you think about all the genealogy stuff that's being done.

• 3:28:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:28:02Ashley Flowers?

  Now, there's no mention of utilizing this technology to assist with the case yet. And John Ramsey said in my interview with him that he's afraid, because he's trying to find out where the evidence is. Like, what can we do now, right? Like, starting over or not starting over, like, there's just new testing that needs to be done.

• 3:28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:28:19Ashley Flowers?

  And he doesn't, can't get a straight answer. He says about if the evidence is secure, where it is. So he doesn't know, like, his biggest fear is maybe someone lost it? Or maybe they're protecting someone.

• 3:28:32Speaker 02

  Hashtag protect Boulder.

• 3:28:35Ashley Flowers?

  I don't think anyone's looking out for Boulder anymore. But everyone says that they're committed to looking out for Jeanne Bay. I'll say that. There was a cold case review. This team was brought in, in like recently, like 2023. They're said to have made recommendations about how to move the case forward. What those were, if they're being acted on, unclear to me. We did, like I said, we reached out to the DA's office and the Boulder PD. Surprise, I've had nothing juicy from them, so obviously they declined my offer, but they did give us statements. So the DA's office PIO said, quote, "The murder of JonBenet Ramsey was a tragedy. Our office has successfully prosecuted cold case homicides and many other murder cases.

• 3:29:18Ashley Flowers?

  Our office appreciates the continued collaboration with CDPS, CBI, the FBI, and the Boulder Police Department. As with any cold case homicide, the overarching goal is to look at the facts and evidence with fresh eyes and an open mind, armed with the latest developments in forensic science. The presentation to the cold case review team generated helpful recommendations. Our office is continuing to work with federal, state, and local agencies to make progress on this tragic case," end quote. Boulder PD gave us this statement. "The killing of JonBenet was an unspeakable crime, and this tragedy has never left our hearts. Boulder Police Chief Steve Redfern said, 'We are committed to following up on every

• 3:30:03Ashley Flowers?

  lead, and we are continuing to work with DNA experts and our law enforcement partners around the country until this tragic case is solved. This investigation will always be a priority for the Boulder Police Department. Because this is an open and ongoing investigation, the Boulder Police Department is unable to give any interviews or comment on specific aspects of this crime. We continue to investigate and encourage anyone with information to contact detectives at [email protected] or by calling the Boulder Police tip line at 303-441-1974."

• 3:30:42Ashley Flowers?

  As for John Ramsey, he says that he is fighting for his daughter. In the last few years, he recently started doing more interviews and his eldest son, John Andrew, has even gotten really involved as well. And they're both featured in the new documentary on Netflix. They are pushing for authorities to do more testing. They've met with Othrum Labs themselves. They feel that genealogy could be the thing that this case has been waiting for. If the evidence is still there. And John hasn't gotten an answer about that yet. And that is where he asks for Crime Junkies' help. Like, I think it is something that no matter where you come out on this case,

• 3:31:24Ashley Flowers?

  like, this is something we can all get behind because there is unknown DNA there. And we have to find out who that belongs to because there is no world where anyone could be prosecuted in this case without that DNA being explained. Now, John also says that he encourages people to write to their congressman about something called the Victims' Families Rights Act. It was signed into law federally by Joe Biden in 2021. But John says that it needs to be passed in each state. And what this would do is it would allow families of loved ones to request a federal review of their loved one's case after it's been cold for three years. And this is something that he says that he wishes he would have had.

• 3:32:08Ashley Flowers?

  So, I mean, I asked him if he's going to be pushing for this in Colorado. He's moved out of state now, but again, the case is still there. But he says that he doesn't have connections in Colorado anymore. Now, John says that he has heard that they're just waiting for him to die so that this case will go away. But if I believe one thing about this case, it's that it's not going away anytime soon. We are not going away. So if you have made it to the end, thank you. Thank you for being a crime junkie. Being a crime junkie means that you're into more than just the headlines. And there is still so much more to this case. I would encourage you to go check out the Netflix documentary.

• 3:32:53Ashley Flowers?

  It's dropping on November 25th, 2024. It is called Cold Case: Who Killed JonBenet? And you can go right now to our YouTube if you're listening. You could watch this episode or you can go check out the interview that I have with Jon Ramsey. It's available right now.

• 3:33:49Ashley Flowers?

  Did I, I didn't tell you? So when I was, when I was there for the interview.

• 3:33:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:33:54Ashley Flowers?

  I, I'm walking back from dinner to my hotel and I like, I see this restaurant and I'm like, wait, Pasta J's, Pasta, why do I know Pasta J's?

• 3:34:04Speaker 02

  What?

• 3:34:04Ashley Flowers?

  Shut up. I'm like, why do I know Pasta J's? And I'm like, oh my God, Ashley, you've been living in the Johnny Ramsey case, like.

• 3:34:09Speaker 02

  That's where they had dinner on Christmas Eve.

• 3:34:11Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, they're friends with Pasta J. And I was like, that's so strange. And so I'm like Googling, I'm like, I didn't know it was a franchise. It's not a franchise. It's, it's literally in Boulder and then where Jon lives. And so the next day, he said something about, I can't remember what it was, but he's like, oh yeah, my friend owns Pasta J's. And I was like, yeah, I was gonna ask you about that. I saw it last night. And he's like, oh yeah, and by the way, Mike Bynum owns the hotel that you were staying at.

• 3:34:42Ashley Flowers?

  Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?

• 3:34:52Speaker 02

  Growing up in a small town, I know how deeply a crime can shake a local community. And I know that what makes the headlines is rarely the full story. That's what Kylie Lowe explores on her show Dark Down East. She digs into cases from Maine and New England using original reporting, archival records, and conversations with the people who knew them best. Each episode takes you inside the communities these stories shaped, and the families who never stop searching for answers. Listen to Dark Down East wherever you get your podcasts.

• 3:35:20Speaker 02

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir. And that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather around, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.